oooh, first comment! interesting point steve, about the similarities. hopefully the truth will come out alot sooner with amanda knox than it has for the holloway family.
as young woman who has travelled overseas i think its easy to take risks and do things you wouldnt normally do - away from your family and friends and familiar surroundings the normal rules dont apply. natalee would have felt safe and been on an adventure in aruba....and someone with amanda's personality could get out of control without the usual checks and balances i guess.
i dont know - i wouldnt walk around my own neighbourhood in the dark on my own....but i walked around london in the dark and didnt really take in that the risks are the same.
Lizzy, I first went to New York City when I was 16. I went from being a kid who was petrified of driving on the Interstates around Nashville, TN to hailing cabs during rush hour in front of Bloomingdale's. Didn't think about it. The excitement and adrenaline overrode so many of my internal cautions it wasn't even funny. A lot of kids who seemed kind of repressed at home (a girl I dated both in high school and college, Jeanie, went on that trip, and she was the perfect example of this) flipped for 4 brief days in NYC, wearing different clothes, drinking, you name it. A month later we were back in Nashville, I was back to being phobic about the interstate, and Jeanie was back to wearing her good Baptist cross necklace and demure blouses that buttoned up to her chin.
Weird side of human nature, ain't it?
There is something about this girl "Foxy Knoxy" that I just cannot stand. Of course, "weirdness", vanity, and rampant narcissism doesn't always mean murderer...
I'm pretty sure there's nothing the European media would love more than a "cute" American girl being this vile. Disgusting.
I guess I am the odd ball then. They ALL fascinate me! Human interest stories and I'm there.
LOL, Steve, you acted on instinct. When you and I (we are the same age) were 16, NYC was at its worst. Acting naive could and probably would have got you hurt.
Humans are animals after all, and instinct kicks in.
I am happy for you....for your new writing spot at Radar...however I am posting my thoughts on Knox here because I am a true Steve fan and this is home to me.
I find the release and interview of Patrick Lumumba to be VERY ENLIGHTENING into what happened when, where, why, and how. He showed me a bit more into the character of Amanda.
Now more than ever, I am seeing a young woman that was dominated by hate and jealousy mostly (if not covertly) aimed at women and how other women could make her feel threatened.
I sincerely wish Patrick the BEST and am really ground to a halt by his personal testament of how he was treated in this case in relation to evidence ILE had.
Natalee and Amanda. Both young (same age), pretty, abroad (away from home), both perhaps confident and experimenting and (maybe a bit) naive about the situations that they put themselves into. Sounds like every teen/young adult female I can think of...In North America and Europe alike. I see nothing else in common between these two women.
Have I missed something here?
Differences? One is a victim and is (likely) dead. The other is being held as a suspect and might have criminal involvement (likely) in the death of another.
Maybe the two shared something in common in how they got to their situations but their circumstances lead one to conclude that there are far more differences between them than similarities.
"(likely)" is the only similarity I can see between the two.
Judging from movies, Americans liked the idea of wicked women, femme fatales, from around 1944 until around 1952. Think of Jane Greer in "Out of the Past."
Before complaining about the European press' glee, think of the s**tstorm our media would drum up if this occurred here, at the hands of an exchange student (read "immigrant").
I'm an avid reader of the Perugia story here on Steve's blog. My condolences go to Meredith's family though I doubt there is any consolation to them now.
Thought I'd add a few lines of comments myself.
I spent half a year in Sweden as an exchange student back in 2002 when I was 21. One sure becomes a bit relaxed away from home in a foreign country. I was drinking more often and partying a lot more than in my normal surroundings. No drugs, but if I'd had a real chance to try that, maybe I would have done it... I engaged in a (sexual) relationship with a man (of different colour) I wouldn't dare date in my own country (no racism here, we were just too different). I remember shocking my dorm mates sometimes 
I FELT DIFFERENT.
That was some way of exploring myself. At the same time I knew I could allow myself to experiment with "being different" because I'd leave as soon as the study programme finished and could be "back to normal" in my own home.
I somehow feel connected to Amanda in that way... I imagine she might have felt some of that, but overstepped the line (assuming she had a part in that cruel murder).
I'd never turn to anything criminal, harming other people etc. I wonder if that has to do with some inner wrong, a lot of insecurity and evil personality... Or maybe... just a lot of bad luck, an unhappy coincidence of such circumstances as too much alcohol, drugs, and getting too excited on being "on the loose"...
You know that 1/2 year has taught me a lot about myself. I've become settled down, more secure inside myself and I remember my time in Sweden with an inner smile. I guess Amanda won't... And in this way, I'm sorry for her.
...I too don't see anything in common between natalie and amamda - I see natalie and jonbenet as having more in common - both had mothers who pushed their kids to be/do what mother wanted for their own personal reasons - now JB and natalie are both gone - beth and patsy were reliving their lives thru their daughters -
Steve, when I clicked on "recommend it" on Radar, it immediately clicked me off the internet. I went back on and read another article/different author clicked "recommend it" and the same thing happened again. Weird.
Another thing that is weird is this entire case, the DNA on the knife could be from both girls touching it. If it was the murder weapon wouldn't they clean it better if they took it to the boyfriend's home? I didn't hear that there was blood on the knife, just DNA. Amanda is a nasty girl but I'm wondering if she and her boyfriend are not guilty of murder.I think she was drugged out and told the police whatever they wanted to hear, or whatever she thought she "dreamed". I'm still waiting for the entire story to unfold. Now they are looking for another couple because of DNA found at the scene. Sounds like this place was a party house so there might be lot's of unrelated DNA. I think the guy who took the dump in the toilet and left his DNA on Meredith and then danced at the disco is the only killer.
@ Iflight
You said: 'I knew I could allow myself to experiment with "being different" because I'd leave as soon as the study programme finished and could be "back to normal" in my own home.'
Perfectly described! This is exactly why that half-year or year or maybe even two years abroad are good for most people. The combination of license and the lack of people with preconceived notions about who one is, is liberating and increases self-knowledge no end.
I think some of you who are saying you see nothing in common are missing my overall point, but that's ok. As the writer it's my responsibility to make that point clear, and if I didn't do that for some people I can live with it.
Colette -- some sort of javascript implements when you click that recommend it link. I did it for a different author's article and had no problems and I noticed that the clicks on my update post had gone up, too. Could there be problem in your browser with javascript? We've had a problem with Firefox especially here at my home, even though we all love the browser otherwise. It doesn't seem to like javascript very much.
Also, only click once on any article you like there. No need to click more. I think they have an IP identifier script that disallows multiple clicks from one source -- I had a similar script on an older blog where I briefly implemented a similar system.
I can promise those who fear Amanda Fox will be chewed up and spat out in the uK? European press that all we are interested in is what really happened to Meredith. I have read that Meredith was beginning to get fed up with all the different boyfriends Amanda was bringing home and wanted to talk to her about it. That's the worst I've read. However spare a thought for the McCann's - in three papers today I saw they'd sold Madeleine into slavery themselves, were the killers and a book was being written to prove this and and yet another libellous remark about their DNA and Madeleine's having been found mixed "somewhere" (really, that accurate!) and this is seven months on from Madedeine's disappearance...
What was the history of that 'party' house and how many in Perugia knew it as such even before Amanda went to live there?
does anyone think it's possible that r did it all alone, a showed up while he was, he threatened her, she gets r and they do the cleanup, maybe they planned on doing some cleanup in m's room, but were sidetracked when the police showed up? long shot, but who knows at this point?
sorry that was confusing, i meant r alone, as in rudy, and a getting r as in raff
I just read in an italian paper, that they foung chewed gum on the nightstand next to MK bed - they are going to check out who it belongs to.
I read contradictory accounts of the blood stain found in the bathroom - i read that it was AK fingerprint or blood from a nosebleed that AK had.
Third thing I read that surprised me -is that now the papers are saying that perhaps this murder took place was due to AK stealing money from MK. Investigators want to connect the call that was made from MK's cell to her bank somehow.
Lastly, there were three knife wounds. 1 long cut made with knife that was found at RS's apt. and 2 smaller cuts that were possibly made from a swiss army knife (could it be a knife from one of RS's collection??).
nearseattle - if RHG was alone in the crime, then why was alot of the scene attempted to be thoroughly washed?
that's the only thing, and the knife, and the CCTV footage, an Amanda's strange behaviour of not being bothered afterwards, and shopping with RS for lingerie the next day.
peace, love & empathy.
I think at this point it is pretty clear that all three - RHG, RS, and AK - were somehow involved in the actual murder. Theories about how one or the other was only involved in the cleanup, or was threatened to keep to quietm, do not hold water. If that were the case, they would be able to make a credible confession that is consistent with the evidence but have not done so.
what bugs me THE MOST about this case of Amanda Knox is that we have obtained little of what her life was like (and her personality and sexual identity)before she arrived in Spain ready to study for a year...
I think any past information on her psychological state prior to these events (and also a complete scrubbing of any and all other related cases that occurred during her time in Espana), can/could uncover even more similarities to other cases of this same type.
(aside:...): (for those of you making crass and erroneous statements about the decedent..I urge you to find your BASIC SENSE of human dignity after reading any text on the military and examining any and all advanced training that sodiers take.
While the aftore mentioned brainwashing may have seen simnply enough in words....I URGE YOU (as a family member of an officer for over 16 years) to tally the answers and then share them with Greta or another news~worthy media outlet.
ohhhhhh! Re~reading it, my last post sounded very vindictive to say the least~ I AM SO SORRY ABOUT THAT!
I STILL have tons of questions pertaining to the timeline but am also sure that the distributors of such comments are hard, if not impossible, to read and assimilate.
WHAT CAN YOU ADD HERE, GRETA? I swear...out of all women alive currently on our planet YOU ROCK THE GLOBE! (and Meredith....while I know those were not your words during the investigation,,,they still managed to help you set yourself free!)
Steve~o,
You said this:
" I think some of you who are saying you see nothing in common are missing my overall point, but that's ok."
I think I have your point..but I am a 'real' blonde and for some reason that really DOES effect my processing speed.
So here goes....Amanda Knox and Natalee are on flip sides of a coin because they were both young and on their own and due to their teenage lack of impulse control ended up in similar situations.(being murdered). Yet...their situations could not be more different at the same time.
I think we should keep looking for Stacy and putting on the ultimate pressure as well.
So when will this end?
Both stories remind us of the danger of letting our guard down or taking greater risks when in a foreign country.
As regards the Perugia (Italy) case, the victim, MK, had not let her guard down. She already had sensed a danger in Knox's "strange men". This was why she objected to them (not because she was prude).
Still, if MK had been in London or Leeds rather than in Italy, with such a roommate, she would have already moved out of the house. So she also was taking a greater risk (risk by association). (This is not in any way to place the blame on the victim.)
As for Knox, she went right off the rails...
In the Madeleine case, there too the parents took a greater risk (leaving their three kids unattended), simply because they were abroad.
From what I can see, looks like the 3 of them were all involved to some degree. makes a nice grim story....wait for Hollywood to latch on!
I thought that there was a finger print on meredith's face from amanda. It was a fingerprint which also indicated that a great deal of pressure/force was applied to meredith.
Now the press and the prosecuter are acting as if this new blood find in the bathroom is the only substantial clue that puts amanda in the house when she says she wasn't.
What is up?
Steve, I think your opinion about Natalee Holloway is unfortunately true. what do you think about Madeleine McCann? As much as people want to be optimistic, do you think the worst has happened to her as well? Am interested to read your opinion on that case. Thank you.
I've always felt that Natalee was most likely disposed of at the location of an abandoned meat packing plant, which is on the north coast end of the island.
This was a place where workers used to dump scraps of meat into the ocean, which in time attracted sharks, both large and small.
Today, it stands as a place where tourists go to see/feed sharks.
When I was Honeymooning in Aruba (June of 2005) I heard from many different locals that sharks were still fed at this location, as well as others in the coastal areas of the island, for the purpose of keeping the sharks away from the beaches.
That being said, until a body or other conclusive evidence of death is produced, I wouldn't write off the possibility (remote as it may be) that Natalee is alive and being held captive against her will, as part of the ever growing human trafficking sex trade. (Especially with the international connections of the accused in this case.)
Seriously... it wouldn't be difficult at all to slip a girl a mickey at Carlos'n Charlie's and then carry her off to be transported, by boat, plane, or whatever.
nursebeeme was like:
> what bugs me THE MOST about this case of Amanda Knox is that we have
> obtained little of what her life was like (and her personality and sexual
> identity)before she arrived in Spain ready to study for a year...
>
> I think any past information on her psychological state prior to these
> events (and also a complete scrubbing of any and all other related
> cases that occurred during her time in Espana), can/could uncover even
> more similarities to other cases of this same type.
>
WTF?
> (aside:...): (for those of you making crass and erroneous statements
> about the decedent..I urge you to find your BASIC SENSE of human dignity
> after reading any text on the military and examining any and all
> advanced training that sodiers take.
(ASIDE: WTF? "decedent"? "military"? "sodiers"?)
> While the aftore mentioned brainwashing may have seen simnply
> enough in words....I URGE YOU (as a family member of an officer for over
> 16 years) to tally the answers and then share them with Greta or another
> news~worthy media outlet.
WTF?
Excuse me if this misses the (ie your) point, but may I respectfully request that you consider refraining from hitting the "post" button whilst under the influence of mind-altering substances?
What has "Spain" got to do with anything, much less a "decedent" or "so[l]diers"?
Hi everybody!..
so...
Some news (if you can call this "a news") ... The AK's version on the day (I've lost the progressive number... I think would be the 6th?)
http://www.ansa.it/opencms/
expor...l_42997966.html
"AK reaffirms the version that she has never been in the house in Via della Pergola while Meredith Kercher was killed"...
ciao
More news:
http://www.lastampa.it/
redazione...27955girata.asp
RS's lawyers will demonstrate that Postal Police went to the cottage at 01,05pm... So they can prove that RS really called the police earlier...
What a shitty couple of lawyers... But masonry CAN...
ciao
...and I'll leave you with my first (and still unsolved) question of the previous thread:
Why MK's cell phones were launched JUST THERE?
ciao e buona notte
Eh, I don't believe that taking the knife to the cottage necessarily proves premeditation, other than planning to use it for cooking.
And the reason there was no evidence of the knife in AK's purse was because the Clever Cleaners wrapped it in something before tucking it into the purse.
Without having any forensic analysis of the cuts, I surmise that one knife was used...it cut shallowly a couple of times and then the fatal blow was dealt.
If other loose ends on the crime are tied up nice and pretty then the knife does become premeditation, I believe, and the phone calls, and a bunch of stuff. Daddykins made a decent case on Sonnny's knife (knife #2, tied to one wound) being a matter of habit.
Meredith's friends would have known if she'd had plans after their pizza-movie party, at least so far as she may have mentioned needing to be home at 9; and, they should have noticed phone calls coming in. I'm hanging on to MK as an innocent roomie for now, although, I thought her tox may have shown a little cannabis or a toot or two. I do recall it coming back clean. We haven't heard about tox on big a or little rs yet, right?
I can feel you out there.
[Pinecone: I can't wait to get back to Italy.]
The Seattle board is getting more interesting. This is a thread of tree-huggers meets one of the macho lands of beer and hunting, with a few outsiders chiming in. I admit. I am waging a fact-finding mission to learn which hand ak favored.
http://tinyurl.com/ytfgua
I guess I'm having trouble with the premeditation theory because I feel as though the murder happened when things got out of hand.
I can't imagine the motive for planning MK's death.
If they planned on killing her from when they were still at RS's apt., why would they offer her mushrooms for a snack first?
Plus, I have a hunch that they wouldn't have known MK's schedule that night. AK and MK don't sound like the sort of roommates that check in with each other. "Hi Amanda, I'm going to a friend's house to watch a movie and have pizza. I'll probably get home around 9 or so...." Just isn't plausible, to me.
Also, if they had planned to end her life that night, why give her a wound that took two hours to bring her death? Why not just finish her off quickly and move into the cleaning part of the plan?
Of course, I'm trying to think like a murderer here, and that's about as possible as thinking like a cat.
OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DANGIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
How could I DARE to forget Melinda Duckett? This case FOR SURE needs sent over for further discussion. Steve~o, your coverage and tireless research outdid MSM BY MILES (but then again...your writing and coverage all seem to make preternatural sense and literally beg to be answered~if YOU ask them. This is a skill that is so very rare.
Rock on brother. You are 'the king' of internet true crime blogging. You have redesigned the face of investigation with a little nip here and a tuck there.
ahhhh.....
ps, I took the haunted tour of Fort Leavenworth (the base on which I currently live) and got a chance (during this halloween tour) to enter the old DSB (army prision...they have built a new one within the last five years or so).
No MPs that had worked the old dsb before would even come on the grounds to talk about it! I looked up at the elevator shaft where they had hung 10 German POWs (they were murdered in cold blood without a trial)and spotted a shadow person in one of the windows with his arms crossed and looking down at us. It made my hair stand on end!!
funniest thing about that.....no one has been in or occupied the old buildings for the past five years! I am also not the only one who saw the shadow person...another little boy (around 
also was VERY FREAKED OUT BY IT)and vocalized it way before I would have.
The guard went on to talk about the former shadow person they had on the third tier of cells in the old dsb...they purposfuly kept that cell open because every time any guard made rounds they were showever and pushed almost over the railing of tier three.
One officer actually fell to his death...and that is what our docient that night explained.
Lights in the guard towers go on and off at all times of the day and night at the old dsb (and the lights DO NOT HAVE BULBS!!!).
Creepy, I tell you! Next week my friend and I are going to go place flowers on all the german pow gravesites. At the time of their execution they were burried along the north~south axis (which is a slam to anyone in the military....as all mlitary are to be burried facing the east...facing the son).
sorry...that would be, "facing the sUn"
And also, Fort Leavenworth was (and is) the sight of the largest mass killing in US penal history.
Over 50+ soldiers were hanged to the death in alphabetical order.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ne...pect/
article.do New to me......New to you?
Middie | Homepage | 11.28.07 - 5:07 pm | #
Your question I do not understand. What do you mean by launched?
It is never in my intentions to vilify the victim, but some questions do need to be asked, especially when they can mean the difference between a accident death and a premeditated murder.
Grant it, knowing that Meredith Kercher and Amanda Knox didn't necessarily live in perfect harmony, does make any willing liaisons between the group of those in question UNLIKELY.
That being said... It seems as if this, "Last Supper", did serve the purpose of seducing Meredith, if only to drop her guard. Kind of like breaking bread or extending an olive branch.
Meredith strikes me as someone who would have just as soon forgave and forgotten, but that is merely speculation on my part....just as I speculate that Amanda is prideful and the complete antithesis of a forgiver.
(Makes it ironic that she is seeking council on the concept of forgiveness... or does it?)
I can't be sure that during this "snack," a heated argument didn't soon follow, that tempers weren't lost, and an action was committed that could never be taken back. However, the wounds inflicted upon Meredith seem the furthest thing from rage or a drug induced frenzy.
I've seen violent drug fueled crime scenes (during my days as a first responder)and as I've said before, the degree of overkill is more often than not EXTREME.
I see a lot more control here. It could just be circumstantial, but one gets the impression that whoever killed Meredith KNEW they had all the time they needed to carry out whatever intentions they had. (and that the other 2 roommates weren't going to walk in on the scene as it unfolded.)
I guess what I am saying is that I am beginning to lean towards some degree of a premeditated act. Perhaps the initial intention wasn't to take a life...perhaps all of those involved weren't on the same page. All it takes is for one person to take something a little too far....
Accounts of Amanda in jail have been a mixed review, every spectrum of the manic rainbow. Also, in her own words, she has a bunch of different "truths," but she isn't sure which one is "real." I believe she is looking directly down the barrel of that through and knows damn well what it is.
If Rudy Hermann Guede was even slightly involved in the plot, surely the same Raffaele Sollecito who has attempted to distance himself from his girlfriend, would point his finger at Rudy to save his own hide... Yet, he has not. This despite Rudy's generic "assassin" description that almost physically fits Rafe to a tee.
Does Rafe fear Rudy... or is it simply the fear that Rudy has the information needed to firmly put Rafe at the scene of the crime, be it before or after? (My read on Rafe is that his greatest fear is disappointing his father.)
Amanda seems loyal to Rudy, to a fault. I've suggested they are "birds of a feather," with some mutual understanding/fondness. I also suggested that Amanda supplanted Patrick Lumumba name for Rudy's and Patrick, himself, has already disclo
continued...
I also suggested that Amanda supplanted Patrick Lumumba name for Rudy's and Patrick, himself, has already disclosed her possible motivation for doing so.
The degree of Rudy's involvement seems to be the linchpin to this case. He has already contradicted himself as many times as Amanda Knox has, so it's difficult to get an accurate read on him. What has run through my head is ghoulish, to say the least, but does go back to his initial acknowledgment of having sex with Meredith, but not killing her. Perhaps that is because you can not kill someone who is already dead?
I found it very interesting how the day after Amanda's journal was leaked, RS released his letter to his father. It seemed as though RS was directly responding to Amanda's words of confussion and sadness that RS is not being nice about her, and that everything is like a dream in her life > RS then writes confirming that life is like a dream for amanda, and that he does not think she is a killer.
I also feel that not only is Amanda loyal to Rudy, Rudy is loyal to her. I dont believe most of what Rudy is saying, but I am sure there are partial truths to his lies, just as Luke determines the truth in Amanda "I heard screaming held my ears" lies.
I feel that they really thought that they could pin this murder on merediths boyfriend. They put blood in his flat downstairs, and Rudy I think thought he could lead people to assume that the boyfriend came in to the flat in a jealous rage cause he got wind that meredith was having sex with Rudy. I do not feel that Rudy was trying to implicate RS.
Long time lurker
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
MEOW lol
The Seattle board is getting more interesting.
http://tinyurl.com/ytfgua
xin | 11.29.07 - 1:00 am | #
--very interesting thanks for posting.
Very intriguing supposition, chris.
I had missed the news about blood being in/near the boyfriend's flat. Is there an article that references this being the case?
I wonder if Rafe left his footprint on the duvet as he was covering Meredith's body, perhaps as a last act of contrition? Either that, or he may have been the one to drag the body as it had been wrapped in the duvet, leaving contrition completely out of the equation.
Indications are that the body was drug into the closet and then drug back towards the bed. It seems that maybe they could have drug the body into the closet while they decided how to stage the murder.....
blood being in meredith boyfriends flat was in the press in the beginning of this case. But god knows what is true or not, cause I am hearing nothing anymore about Amandas finger marks on Meredith face anymore either. But, let me go look for the article.
That Seattle board is humorous, little more than that. Tons of ignorance and assumptions to go around on there.
Post of the year!
"Nigga is bein' framed by doze white beeatches. He was taking a dump, and lizznen to fitty cent. Den him am herded a noiz and wet out to see what am goin' on and some eyetie got all up in his grill so ah boned out, yo. It ain't his foety five nike in da room. It a foety 2. Dat eyetie kidz size yo. "I wuz juzz layin some pipe am den I got all sick and had to make a dooty" "I wote AF on da wall cuz dat stabbed girl wuz sayin dat am den I got ma nigga azz up outa dah.""
whoops:
couple of posts from other thread:
Amanda Knox: Happy, jovial, and smiley in prison, has her own en-suite. and everything is wonderful wonderful wonderful.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith129.xml
She has the upper body strength to do pull-ups on bars in her "sorority"-as she describes the atmosphere between her & fellow prisoners - dorm.
=========
seems AK is very happy in her cell. keep her there :D
====
question: in any of her statements made to friends or HMs of meredith kercher, or in any of her uni-for-prisoners writings, has SHE EVER said she's saddened by merediths death?
===
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...n=null&
offset=0
amanda knox on prison life.
she has asked the prison priest about the concept of forgiveness.
sorry if already posted
Loz | 11.29.07 - 9:25 am | #
Loz,
It's all about Amanda. Amanda's feelings, Amanda's inconveniences, the way Amanda is being treated, etc..
Now she is happy that she is being treated with "dignity," which in her own words, "Is important."
TYPICAL SOCIOPATHIC PERSONALITY.
It reminds me of the way that Drew Peterson is behaving.
IDk.... mushrooms, cheese... most likely a little wine. Sounds like "sexy" food to me.
-LUKE
YEAH cheesey breath, real sexsay!
if she had chocolate coated strawberries, MAYBE Id give you that.
Loz | 11.29.07 - 9:28 am | #
==================================================
==========================
""Luke said: Indications are that the body was drug into the closet and then drug back towards the bed. It seems that maybe they could have drug the body into the closet while they decided how to stage the murder...""
I wonder why they had reason to put the body in the closet though. was it lockable?
did they consider mopping up the all the blood I wonder?
I have been searching still havent found story yet that refers to blood in boyfrineds flat downstairs, but I do see many bloggers referencing that story-- when i find story will post.
Well Papa Sollecito has certainly been quiet the past couple of days.
Interesting, the Forza Nuevo fascist party guy visits (and has somehow got permission) Foxy in jail, gets her yapping and then runs to the paper.
Who thought that idea up?
Could it be ... Satan?
I thought Saturday was visiting day. The only guy who benefits from that visit is RS.
Correction: maybe not part of fascist-leaning group who put up the posters. The visitor is described:
"I love mountain-climbing with bare hands, without a rope. It's my passion," she told Osvaldo Napoli, a member of parliament for Forza Italia who entered the prison to check on the conditions inside.
http://tinyurl.com/2gjfc5
Incarceration in a foreign land and looking at the possibility of doing a lengthy bid would scare the shit out of just about any normal person. She's acting like it's a party and one held in her honor, at that.)
"See you in Disneyland."- Richard Ramirez.
Amanda seemingly shares the same sentiments...
RS's lawyers have said that the kitchen knife found at his flat is not the murder weapon and that Meredith's dna was not found on the tip of the blade but on the handle. I read this on teletext...not sure if it's in the english press yet...
Ok-- here is one reference to the blood in other apartment. will get additional references that as I recall said specifically that it was the flat downstairs, and MK had the keys to feed the cats there, and blood was smeared on walls. But this is a start.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2811736.ece
Xin - I noticed that your comment on the Seattle board (about whether AK is right/left-handed) has been deleted (or did I just miss it?)
Re: mozarella and mushrooms.
If Meredith did eat at the house, I think this increases the probablity that Mr X and Ms X were there too.
I doubt whether MK would have eaten just with AK and RS (especially since she couldn't have been very hungry as she'd already had a pizza at 6.) But if there were also these two guests in the house, MK may have thought that she should be polite and sit down and chat with them, and eat with them...
Just a theory...
Damian, yeah I saw the Gargano from one of the Croatian islands, it was an amazingly clear day.
Well Papa Sollecito has certainly been quiet the past couple of days.
Interesting, the Forza Nuevo fascist party guy visits (and has somehow got permission) Foxy in jail, gets her yapping and then runs to the paper.
Who thought that idea up?
Could it be ... Satan?
I thought Saturday was visiting day. The only guy who benefits from that visit is RS.
xin
very interesting.
damian
a question....
was this cottage where the murder took place known for parties before the current student year?
it would be good to know
.
Incarceration in a foreign land and looking at the possibility of doing a lengthy bid would scare the shit out of just about any normal person. She's acting like it's a party and one held in her honor, at that.)
"See you in Disneyland."- Richard Ramirez.
Amanda seemingly shares the same sentiments...
Luke | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:35 pm | #
unless she see's her being moved about, given respect, given a bigger cell, more visiting rights (hang on wasn't her mum allowed to visit), more lawyer contact, people & the priest guy in there liking her, and her lawyers telling her there's little forensics etc etc...maybe she sees it as a sign she is going to be released soon.
and what if she is?
from the Times online:
Investigators said that Ms Kercher almost certainly shared a meal with her killers on the night that she was murdered. Giuliano Mignini, the investigating magistrate in the case, said that the post-mortem on Ms Kercher had revealed a mushroom in her oesophagus.
He said that Ms Kercher was known to have eaten an early supper of pizza and ice cream with two British women friends, both fellow students, at six o’clock on the evening of her death. But Sophie Purton, one of the friends, had testified that the meal contained no mushrooms.
Mr Mignini said that Ms Kercher and Ms Knox were fond of mushrooms. He found it very probable that mushrooms had been part of a late-evening snack in which Ms Kercher joined, perhaps before or during a sex and drugs party that “went wrong” and ended in her death.
He said that champignon mushrooms of the kind found in Ms Kercher’s oesophagus had been found in the fridge at Mr Sollecito’s flat, where the kitchen knife believed to be the murder weapon was also found.
http://tinyurl.com/34tjyd
The supposition that Meredith ate with anyone at the cottage seems a leap if the only mushroom found was in her esophagus. Perhaps I'm missing something here.
That the mushroom is the same type as those found in RS's fridge is not damning in itself, but is yet one more link connecting Meredith's death with RS.
I'm leaning toward an argument (over money, over men, over everything?) that went way, way too far. Meredith came home, found a known drug dealer cozied up and using with AK, discovered money missing from her room, and a fight ensued. RS was involved in at least the clean up, maybe more.
They covered Meredith from view--out of sight, out of mind, and then they didn't have to look at what they had done to her.
My thoughts on using initials (albeit carefully): Early on, someone expressed that using initials for the suspects and using Meredith's full name as the victim in this case was a way to show a bit of respect for Meredith and her family. I agree, as long as we commenters can keep straight on who we are talking about.
"Reports said that the killer appeared to have cleaned himself up after the bloody murder not only at Ms Kercher’s house but also in the one below, to which he evidently had a key, since there was no sign of a break-in."
Thanks, chris...
and Whoah....
OK, the boyfriend supposedly has an alibi, but how solid? (especially if they still don't have the time line figured out.)
Oops, forgot my senility pill this morning. The anonymous post at 2:41 pm was me.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ne...pect/
article.do
More on RHGs statement.
Rob...I really don't know but I wouldn't imagine so. As a student house, I guess it would depend on the occupants, who change regularly.
"On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate"
If the american is knox, and one of the italians is RS.
was the third italian PL, or one of RSs friends?
"interesting elements", and how would that relate to the house?
Ok-- here is one reference to the blood in other apartment. will get additional references that as I recall said specifically that it was the flat downstairs, and MK had the keys to feed the cats there, and blood was smeared on walls. But this is a start.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol...icle2811736.ece
chris | 11.29.07 - 2:12 pm | #
blood smears on the walls.
"interestng elements" in the post mortem, to which the house & body relates. could it be there was some satanic stuff.
--soz about this. but in the sand i got 'sin', a trident, & either
"
"Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, the fourth suspect in the case, spoke about Miss Kercher's final moments to German police."
"He reportedly said he had tried to help Miss Kercher as she lay dying."
"He said: "There was blood everywhere, all over the floor. I went over and I saw she had a wound in her neck. I went to the bathroom to take a towel to stop the haemorrhage. Several seconds passed and the towel became soaked in blood, so I took another one."
"Meredith was trying to talk, but it was difficult to understand her because of the wound. I did not call a doctor because of all the blood and I was totally confused."
"When I last saw her she was still alive. She was still breathing. She lay diagonally on the ground, in front of the wardrobe. I cannot say if she was still conscious when I left."
Damn....sure glad I never had a roomate like Rudy....Would hate the thought of having been hurt,and would have intrusted him with my welfare....Damn....Is he so fucked up,he can't figure out ,how fucked up that sounds?....Some peoples kids..Damn
Luke,
I agree with you that RGH's description of the assassin fits RS to a tee. Thanks for your usual case surmise.
Hey Rudy.....Maybe Meridith was trying to tell you to call a doctor.....Sorry still shaking my head
Luke,
I also think that RS's lawyers realize that and have never publicly stated that RS did not kill MK. The are simply stating that RS was in his room all night and not at the cottage where poor Meridith was killed.
Loz>"On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate"
If the american is knox, and one of the italians is RS.
was the third italian PL, or one of RSs friends?<
The residents were Meredith, Amanda,and the two young Italian ladies who traveled over that holiday.
SO Amanda was sprung from her cell for a bit? The other roomies and her and the cops. That musta been pretty interesting, if I'm getting this scene right.
Do you recall where you read that?
meman2
RGH could not do that because as he has already stated, he was invited to the party. After all, he was the drug pusher de jour for all these people. That is the only reason why he was invited. And he got there early too, at 8:38 pm as he stated. With all the new issued about the last digested food, it almost implies that there was indeed a party at the cottage. RGH has stated that they kissed and touched, but nothing serious. This belies the Police report however. This case gets more bizarre every day.
Luke: can you bring the timeline forward (I'm hoping you are keeping it in Word) sometime when you got nothing better to do?
The hearing tomorrow is closed to the public, so we will depend upon third hand info once again.
Haven't heard anything about the giallo couple lately,either. Maybe tomorrow.
bpcl.....Thanks and I agree with you....Just think Rudy is not right in the head.....His logic amazes me...My two last posts, were pretty much,caused by his statements...that you posted...thanks
Damn it.
More of those f'ing "gravatars" on this page, with links to amazon or something to get the image, slows down the load. Is there a way to opt out of those stupid things? They should be banned in any sort of serious blog.
Sorry, I know it's "fun."
meman2,
However, RGH could be telling the truth that he went into the bathroom to do his business(After all, at a party, we all do different things, drink, tall to friends, use the bathroom, go outside)
He said he was listening to music and then he heard MK's screams. He rushes out to face the assassin who as Luke just pointed out, fits RS to a tee.(Shorter than him, Italien, brown hair with glasses)He tries to help MK who is probably dying, but to no avail. What is the dude suppose to do? He is a person of color, who the hell will believe him(I am not defending him, I am just trying to get in his mind; and if you do not think this is true, you only need to think of PL in this case) He stated that he left, although we do not know the exact time. One person did report that a person of color ran by at great speed, almost knocking her partner down. It is my belief now, there was indeed a Mr. X and Ms X involved. Someone has stipulated here about a possible party there. Rudy as he has said, and I believe him, that he did not kill Meredith.
memen2,
And if we are to believe that there were at least 6 people at the scene (MK, AK, RS, RGH and Mr. X & Ms. X) only RGH has stated that he tried to help her( a person of color) All the others, just simply waited for her to die! The Police are on too all of this I am sure. It is just that you and I are sitting here together chatting, tantalizingly waiting for the facts to come out.
[Wow. That was fast,avatars seem to be gone now. Thank you Jesus.]
I simply cannot believe that a person who was not responsible for the murder would not call for medical help. If you do not want to be blamed for the murder, then the easiest way to avoid that is to call for help!
Xin,
You should thank Steve!
Thank you Jesus, and Steve.
xin.....You Are Welcome
Blah,
Responsible citizens would do that. However, in this case, do you think that RS, AK, RGH and the mysterious couple, who most likely, at least according to the Police, came there for sex and drugs(RGH supplying the drugs) are responsible citizens. I think not, and especially when they killed her. And as RGH has admitted, he had sex with MK. His DNA was on/in her. He was screwed. RGH has stated that the assassin said to him, "You are black, who will believe you, or to that effect). That is why Luke has stated, "Evil went down in that cottage that night" against Meredith. Suddenly, she was all alone, unprotected, and had no savior to help her. It was unfortunately for all who loved her dearly, her time to leave.
I just do not believe that RGH was threatened into not calling for help. He was either involved in the murder, raped Meredith, or was just callous and stupid.
Xin commented:
Luke: can you bring the timeline forward (I'm hoping you are keeping it in Word) sometime when you got nothing better to do?
Xin,
I am really not the one to ask when you need anything involving time, or especially, mathematical thinking. My brain just doesn't work that way for some reason. ( I chalk that up to a drowning incident as a toddler.)
Anyway...
So Rudy seems to be straying far from the fact that he had any kind of sexual contact with Meredith in his latest account, yet, his DNA WAS found IN her...
I'm telling ya, this is gonna be creepy if it all went down like I think it did. LE has to be keeping certain details out of the media, stuff only they and those involved with the killing would know.
Details that would make this more sensational than it already is.
bpcl..........But if you run...normally its because your either guilty,or you are hiding something.......But if they have to drag your ass back from another Country...your pretty much guilty I think
Blah,
Your beliefs about RGH are justified. I am just trying to enter his mine. He is not educated like RS, AF, MK etc. He is the drug pusher of the neighborhood; the low life if you will. He had been in trouble with the law before. The only reason why I think he was invited to the 'party'(if there was one) was to supply the drugs. He is the drug pusher for the group.
According to his statement, he tried to help her. The only person who has stated that. At the last part of his statement stated above, he said he was confused. I think he he did not know what to do, these people would never help him and he ran. He will forever remember his cowardice at a critical moment in a human being's life. I believe he is just "callous and stupid" as you say. One of the lower people running around in our society.
He has stated that he had sex with Meredith and it was consensual. I am not sure I believe him because it appears she was on her period. It is my belief that most women would not consent to sex during this time of their bodies history.
All this being said, in time, the facts will come out when these 3(5) rats will have to oppose each other in court.
All of them failed Meredith that day, and will live with that cowardice in their souls to the day they die.
This is a crazy ass week in crime news...
This case, Sean Taylor's murder, the ongoing Peterson case heating up, an internet porn model's apparent murder in Kansas, an Ohio couple with myspace accounts being sought for an armored car heist...
and the beat goes on......
memen2,
He is guilty by association and in law parlance that it interpreted to mean, that he was involved in her murder; just as you say. I am in accordance with you.
OK, somebody smart like Luke started a timeline. Give em up.
http://tinyurl.com/26np49
Now, we got Amanda talking to an Italian politician, and also La Stampa.
This hearing tomorrow, closed, darn, will feature big a and RS together again at last.
oh... and Rodney King got shot...
Luke,
It never ceases to amaze me about the levels human beings can stoop to, even though they/all of us, live in the garden of Eden(Earth) From a religious point of view(going back to the Bible's earliest stories, Cain vs. Abel etc.) this activity has been going on. It is the 'aggressivity' gene that is apart of our genetic code. One can only hope that we can overcome it, before it destroys us. All of your posts have thoughtfully alluded to this genetic makeup in our human psychology, do I dare say.
Luciano Ghirga, her lawyer, told Italian newspaper La Repubblica that Knox said to him: "I hope this affair is cleared up soon and I can go home. Where? To Perugia. I want to live in this city, I love it, it is the place that does it for me."
UK Telegraph 11/29/07
Is this girl completely crazy? She talks about her situation(this affair "being cleared up soon" as though she was in prison for stealing a box of chocolates from Meredith. Even if she is innocent, I would think that the brutal murder of her flatmate would horrify and confound her. If she were innocent, she would be frantic to prove it, and mortified to be a suspect. Even RS had the decency to at least mention the cruelty of Meredith's death. He calls his jail time a "walk in hell". Amanda calls it a "sorority" with Marvelous new friends!
And she's going to live in Perugia?! Does she not have any idea of how reviled she is by the citizens and students of perugia? Even if she were completely absolved of any role in the murder, she still falsely named Patrick, a beloved figure in the town, as the murder.
But its the only town that "does it" for her. When I read this article I was trying to figure out the reason and strategy. Is her lawyer portraying her serenity as proof of innocence, or is this part of an insanity plea?!!
At the very least, she is definitely one of the coldest, most heartless and narcissistic individuals Ive ever run across.
a2,
Luke stated above, and I respect his opinion when it comes to these small minded perps mindsets, that AK has a 'typical sociopathic personality.' I did not know what he meant by this type of personality, however, upon reading your comments, I think you describe AK's sociopathic personality, very well. Thank you.
xin was like:
>More of those f'ing "gravatars" on this
page, with links to amazon or something
> to get the image, slows down the load. Is there a way to opt out of those
> stupid things? They should be banned in any sort of serious blog.
>
I'm not sure what the "fucking gravatars" are to which you refer; all I see on this page is text and a couple of buttons at the bottom below the forms.
Perhaps the problem is with your web browser. Have you considered upgrading?
Someone made an intelligent observation that the word "sociopath" is flung around far too frequently on true-crime message boards. That same poster agreed that Amanda fits the bill to a tee.
These past couple weeks we have been "treated" to prime examples of folks with Antisocial personality disorder. Honestly, if you were to look up the word, you would find Drew Peterson as example 1A and Amanda Knox as 1B.
I am intrigued by the female sociopathic personality, as it is the rarer of the two. (though it does seem that their numbers are increasing as of late.)
Seattle - Perugia --- twin cities
Good girl - Bad girl - two sides of a coin
Yeah, Perugia is where she wanna be...
XIN said: "Loz>"On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate" If the american is knox, and one of the italians is RS. was the third italian PL, or one of RSs friends?< The residents were Meredith, Amanda,and the two young Italian ladies who traveled over that holiday.
SO Amanda was sprung from her cell for a bit? The other roomies and her and the cops. That musta been pretty interesting, if I'm getting this scene right.
Do you recall where you read that?
xin | 11.29.07 - 3:28 pm | #
-------------------------------
frm chris above: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...icle2811736.ece
-------------------------------
so maybe at that point none of them had been arrested or charged. i think it would have been Sun 4th november. on the day/day before they were charged.
erm - is everyone here aware that tomorrow is the day the judge will decide if any of the suspects are freed from prison?
Rob...I really don't know but I wouldn't imagine so. As a student house, I guess it would depend on the occupants, who change regularly.
damian | 11.29.07 - 3:05 pm
could you ask around? sorry to bother but if anybody in the town knew it as a 'party' house earlier this year it would support the big a defenders and could be significant...
.
In my search for the old news reports that there was blood a downstairs flat, I came across this. A reference to how police said knox held meredith down. this as i recall was also based on knox fingerprints on meredith face. Now we see nothing about this. I frankly do not believe that they found Knox fingerprint on Meredith anymore, cause if they did, we would still be hearing about this.
I really think that the police have cleaverly planted stuff in press that they know is not true, with the intention to get somehow to say " but that is not true, it was like this.." a common way to break cases on either side of the pond.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher108.xml
Orders were issued for a series of dawn raids on Tuesday and Knox broke down under interrogation. She burst into tears and made her confession at 5.45am after the interrogator said: "You did it, you held her down."
Xin
Here's my revised timeline:
8.45 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X arrive at house.
8.50 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir fry them.
9.00 The five have snack of garlic mushrooms and mozarella cheese.
9.15 MK arrives, and tastes the mushrooms.
9.30 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X begin party in AK's room.
9.45 MK tells partypoopers to turn the music down (she's real tired after Halloween party the night before).
10.00 AK tells RHG, who's watching the foursome and looking a bit bored to "go get MK."
10.05 RHG enters MK's room.
10.07 MK tells RHG to leave. He takes her cellphones and goes back to AK's room.
10.10 AK, RS, Mr X, Ms X accompany RHG to MK's room and force her to do some things.
10.30 Third final stab.
10.31 RHG rushes out of house (MK's cellphones are still in his pocket, so he dumps them nearby).
10.32 Foursome leave victim's room, locking the door behind them.
10.30 - 11.00 AK, RS, Mr X and Ms X listen to MK's screams, until she goes quiet.
11.30 They return to room, and move body.
11.45 - 02.00 Clean up.
02.00 Horlicks and toast.
02.30 Buona notte a tutti
anonymous said: "I read contradictory accounts of the blood stain found in the bathroom - i read that it was AK fingerprint or blood from a nosebleed that AK had."
-agreed could it have been a drop of AKs blood in which she imprinited her finger?-----
all these articles about sex games gone wrong. I am feeling is to prepare people for the fact MK may have participated up to a point.
RHGs confusion over whether he had sex with MK and the tampon evidence. well, is it lost in translation? is there a tampn, outside or inside the body, with whatever trace of RHG on it would to me indicate non-consensual since it clearly wasn't flushed, if outside the body, but 'strewn'. could there be two links to his dna, one nt semen on the tampon, another, semen, in MK??
I can promise those who fear Amanda Fox will be chewed up and spat out in the uK? European press that all we are interested in is what really happened to Meredith. I have read that Meredith was beginning to get fed up with all the different boyfriends Amanda was bringing home and wanted to talk to her about it. That's the worst I've read. However spare a thought for the McCann's - in three papers today I saw they'd sold Madeleine into slavery themselves, were the killers and a book was being written to prove this and and yet another libellous remark about their DNA and Madeleine's having been found mixed "somewhere" (really, that accurate!) and this is seven months on from Madedeine's disappearance...
Fiz (UK) | 11.27.07 - 5:36 pm | #
but fiz, i think you can take MKs frustration with AK over this. As MKs friends were the ones to relate it, and were named in the press.
-----------
this ties in with AKs laywers saying she's being smeared by the italian Police & press. actually, while it doesn't make her a murderer, it was the statements of PL, and people who knew or knew of AK that related these stories TO THE PRESS ie they are not police leaks or fabricated. the boyfriend, friends & hms of MK also related AKs lack of sorrow over MKs death & her strange behaviour after the murder. It all helps build a profile. -----
i too would like justice, but can not escape the fact that AK is 'interesting' in this case.
oh yeah, and that goes without mentioning the shopping for lingerie.
I simply cannot believe that a person who was not responsible for the murder would not call for medical help. If you do not want to be blamed for the murder, then the easiest way to avoid that is to call for help!
blah | 11.29.07 - 3:52 pm | #
agreed, and further, that at no point during the attack they felt remorse enough to stop it.
a broken hyroid bone would make a snap. perhaps tis occured post-mortem?
RHG's tactic is obviously to place increasing blame on RS, while maintaining his own innocence (i.e. consensual sex with MK). His hope is that AK will side with him - and then it's "two against one".
This makes me think that he did indeed rape MK and that AK wielded the 8 inch knife. RS wielded the smaller penknife.
I draw parallels to this story: "She went down with a scream. The first cut sent them into a frenzy as they tasted and smelled blood. I saw the dogs eating bits of her." http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/new...86908-20176691/
I simply cannot believe that a person who was not responsible for the murder would not call for medical help. If you do not want to be blamed for the murder, then the easiest way to avoid that is to call for help!
blah | 11.29.07 - 3:52 pm | #
Unless, he knew of the plan to murder. forcibly had sex with her. then thought 'hang on, murder is too much' and tried to save her. Or, well he knew how suspicious he'd look after having sex with her (forced or otherwise), especially with his criminal record, whether or not he knew of any plan to murder her. Maybe he was even running in fear of his own life. did he go to that club after washing his clothes (if he did) for safety. when did he split to germany?
I'm telling ya, this is gonna be creepy if it all went down like I think it did. LE has to be keeping certain details out of the media, stuff only they and those involved with the killing would know.
Details that would make this more sensational than it already is.
Luke | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:08 pm | #
like an attempt at the occult?
The supposition that Meredith ate with anyone at the cottage seems a leap if the only mushroom found was in her esophagus. Perhaps I'm missing something here. -annymous
agreed, how long is the esophagus?
Luke, not like you can have faith in leaked reports, but they do say that sex between rudy and meredith happened before sex.
THis is how I think some happened. Rudy is a drug dealer, but he is also not doing well finacially. Amanda owes him money for drugs, he needs it now, besides the money for drugs for the night in question. Amanda steals the money from Meredith, and besides that, Rudy and Amanda are hanging out at the flat having a drug party with others.
Rs has no knowledge of any of this, and if at all he is involved, he did some clean up, but didnt know it was about a murder.
I know I could easily be proved wrong, but hey, I am saying it.
Loz--I thinbk that luke is referring to sex with meredith after she was dead.
The esophagus, a narrow, muscular tube about 20 centimeters (8 inches) long...It takes only seconds for food to pass through the esophagus, and little digestion actually takes place.
--so, the kitchen knife had a mushroom stuck to it / on it.---
she could have had the meal which explains the mozzerella...then after a stray mushroom stuck to the knife, she was stabbed, the mushroom entered her esophagus directly through her wound. Unless they put the knife in her mouth first.-----
a dirtly knife. an impulsive weapon? a plant to make it look impulsive?---
and who did it? not the person with the pen knife...
I just wonder why the mushroom wouldn't have sloughed off on to the outside of her neck though.
lol....help
Has anyone guessed that she vomited?
My first thought on reading about the esophagus. Now I will read back.
LOZ-- Ihave no idea as to what you are talking about concerning knife and mushroom. clarify you theory.
"like an attempt at the occult?"
No, I wouldn't say "occult," especially now that this "mystery couple" appears to have been smoke and mirrors.
If anything "bizarre" happened, it was partially out of morbid curiosity (Rudy and Rafe, Amanda to a lesser degree) and partially in order to stage the crime (Like Rudy writing in blood on the wall, for example.)
I happen to believe that there is something "heavy" that we have yet to learn. I've speculated that the rape occurred postmortem. Rudy's latest story is omitting sex completely, for a reason.
could be that Rudy is now saying no sex because lawyers say no proof as to what info is leaked that Rudy DNA inside of meredith.
The police have leaked alot of stuff, that i am now finding to be untrue. Case closed? hmmm
But i do think that Rudy violated her, and amanda covered up. Why? really no reason except gut instinct.
Loz--I thinbk that luke is referring to sex with meredith after she was dead.
chris | 11.29.07 - 7:18 pm | #
god 
Has anyone guessed that she vomited?
My first thought on reading about the esophagus. Now I will read back.
xin | 11.29.07 - 7:24 pm | #
good thought & more plausable. who knows how 'whole' or digested the mushroom was.
LOZ-- Ihave no idea as to what you are talking about concerning knife and mushroom. clarify you theory.
chris | 11.29.07 - 7:24 pm | #
sorry. that the knife used to kill meredith, had a mushroom on it. having being previously used to cut/slice mushrooms with for the meal.
making th murder weapon THE knife in RSs place. if this is what the esophagus thing means.
Whew RS really is a rich boy. I'm fascinated by the new details, including testimony from his maid.
In addition to the knife, two bottles of bleach were also found in Sollecito's home. Mignini's summary noted bleach is useful for removing blood stains. Sollecito's maid told investigators the bleach had not been there before, and that she uses other products to clean the house.
Sollecito has said he was home and on his computer the night of the killing. Mignini disputed that, saying investigators had determined the computer was connected to the Internet but no one accessed it overnight.
A bloody footprint found near Kercher's body matched Sollecito's shoes, though the shoes themselves did not have any traces and had been washed, Mignini said.
That's from AP. http://ap.google.com/article/
ALe...1LAp6gD8T6U24G0
Shall some of us dismiss the idea that Rudy tried to save MK? Because it is nonsense. He split, simple.
AndtT: thanks for bringing forward the timeline. I'm wondering if we should put the mystery couple's spotting RG on the run should be added?
In my mind, RS is at the House of Horrors until some sort of credible evidence says he was not. (Phones turned off at same time, for starters? I can't see RS as being that comfortable around RG, although drugs and sex can be powerful motivators.)
(I'm afraid that in some cases, I default to the "guilty until proven innocent" school.)
""If anything "bizarre" happened, it was partially out of morbid curiosity (Rudy and Rafe, Amanda to a lesser degree) and partially in order to stage the crime (Like Rudy writing in blood on the wall, for example.)"""
what about AK being the 'fulcrum' though. the one who knew RS & RHG. how well did RS & RHG know each other?
did they plan it away from amanda that night?
why did she not run for or seek help?
Chris,
I know you would like to believe that RS is not involved with the murder of Meredith. That being said, look at it this way. He has never offered an alibi to where he was during the hours in which MK was murdered. He has stated that he was at home working on his computer. The Police have stated that while his computer was turned on, he was not surfing the net. There are very, easy ways to prove whether someone is on a computer or not. I could never convince me that he was on his computer surfing the net, because all surfing is tracked by the 'Cookie' concept. His lawyers have not produced anything to the contrary. They must use the 'Cookie' concept to prove that he was surfing, and thus his innocence.
Secondly, he has said he was surfing, so he cannot say he was sleeping. He lied to the Police when he said he answered a call from his Father around midnight; the call, as detected by the Police, went unanswered. His Father also sent him a text message, saying 'Goodnight' which RS did not answer.
If he had witnesses to prove he was somewhere else, they would have been brought forward by now.
The bloody shoe print has been matched to his shoe, based on the Judges remarks. One could argue that it could have been any shoe, alas for him, it is just one more piece of damning evidence against him.
Many days have passed since Meredith's fateful end, and his lawyers have produced nothing to the contrary.
In Law it is said, if you have the facts, argue the facts, if you do not, argue the Law; that is precisely what his lawyer(s) is/are doing.
His statement at the very beginning, "If I am here, it is the fault of my girlfriend Amanda,' is no different than Adam's remark to the deity when asked why he ate of the fruit on the tree; 'The woman you sent me, gave it to me.'
is there a link to a story that the mushroom was in the esophagus?
Ah, so the giallo couple were just a little tantalizing side trip...this really is sorta Keystone Cops, eh?
Isabella - good one thanks
bpcl | 11.29.07 - 7:46 pm | #
You are correct. I don't know why I have been feeling that he is innocent of murder, and of not being aware of covering a murder. But, if the evidence that he was not on his computer is true, then you are correct.But I have seen so much stuff leaked that is not true, that I will not believe until tomorrow, cause I would think that the judge would know what is BS
I also thought that RS' statement that he wasn't in the "room" when Meredith was killed. Seemed an odd way to phrase it. Was he in the house when she was killed?
chris - someone mentioned in a post above, maybe from 27th nov, about the mushroom in the esophagus.
I noticed that, too, a2, but it could've been poor translation.
Chris,
This is a tale of lost lives; many people here have eloquently alluded to it in their comments posted here. So much has been lost and the tragic thing about it is, this is our youth we are discussing, our future. You are correct to say that so much has been leaked that has been untrue.
I know computers very well, and the very thing that a computer expert will tell you is, look at the cookies on his computer. They will track what he was doing during the time that he stated. I am sure that he has good lawyers. A good lawyer will hire a good computer expert. A good computer expert will tell a good lawyer, he was surfing the net because not only do the cookies on his computer reflect this, but you will also see the same thing on his ISP provider. I waited to here this from somebody on his team before making the judgment that he was or was not on the computer. Since this has not been produced by his team, I must assume that the authorities are correct in saying that he was not surfing, as he said he was. This could have been his alibi sans a human being. Unfortunately for him, computers can be very good witnesses.
Good point, Emily. I hadn't thought of that.
Given that the LE has information that has not been leaked to the press, is there anyone here that believes that either of them will be let out of prison?
a2,
I highly doubt either of the two will be let out of prison based on the current evidence. The Police held tenaciously onto PL before letting him go. There is way too much circumstantial evidence, some of which we are privy to, and a lot more of which we are not, to let them go.
well AK expects hersel to be as in her statement from behind bars:
"she is aware of the fact she'll be a celeb, that the press & photographers will hound her, but has vowed only to speak to lawyers and at the trial"==in aks head she'll be a celeb. but please let me out, i promise i won't speak. i hav been practising my singing in jail. i am going to audition for x-Factor.
dream on...
I don't think that I said that very well...Sorry.
Given that the judge will probably see evidence that we aren't privy to tomorrow, does anyone believe that RS or AK would be allowed to go to "house arrest" or be allowed to be free until trial?
she basically wants bail.
even local nuns said, if let out on bail, she can reside with them.
it's all setting her up for freedom and/or bail
a2,
The Judge in this case has consistently said that both AK and RS are flight risks. From what I understand, both of them can be held for one year.
If you read the Judge's pre-released comments, you will observe between the lines, that the more the Police has studied the case, the more probable it is, they feel, that both RS and AK were involved.
That being said, based on the statements of the Judge, I do not forsee either of them leaving prison anytime soon.
**if the mushroom not sicked up, but put there with the mushroom knife way after meal time - and that knife is the knife at RSs house. then RS nor AK (given her dna on the blade) will be allowed to be under house arrest.
**RHG - he's not even in italy yet. and if he were, he wouldn't be let out as there is evidence of him at the crime scene, which he puts himself in also, and he is known to do the splits to othr countries.
-----and further evidence of AK expecting bail is this. it can take upto a year right 4 this to come to trial. again, SHE RUBS IT IN sayng how she'd like to stay longer than expected in perugia. what a bitch. she was originally meant to be back in seattle around this time----
the prison priests statement about her BIG PLAN is to SPLIT oh no wait travel all around the world is ominous---given he can't directly break the seal of the confessional. and that it was reported she asked him about catolic forgiveness...
Thanks, bpcl.
Because of my work schedule, I have not been able to read all that i would like. I appreciate the information and insight.
i believe her lawyer told her he thinks almost 100% sure that she'll be bailed. and that nuns would take her in.
whether he lied to her who knows.
but look at her goddamn statement in reaction!
says alot. she probably is 'serene', thinking of her plan to split.
or even just to remain in perugia around all of merediths friends, partying.
key statements being "i trust my lawyer / have confidence in him / he makes me feel confident"
that she's not wanting bail out of desperation since well actually she likes her prison sorority anyway & it suits her just fine.
that she will stay in perugia "I really love this place" (paraphrased) "I want to settle here".
Her statement from prison was so blithe and in such sharp contrast to the recent statement from each of meredith's parents that I feel it was extremely offensive.
If there are any nuns in that convent that are attractive or popular, they better watch their backs....
"The nuns will take her in.."
Please.
That's like MK whispering the name/initials of her killer to RG.
Course, Amanda told the priest she wanted to be a nun. I wonder what the qualification are. She didn't even know the contents of the Gospels.
"wow, Luke...wow, Mark..."
Ya know, Rob,my guess is that this house, a rental for these (transient) students, and the boys downstairs...probably is known as a party house with that kind of turnover. MKs boyfriend downstairs played in a band, maybe the band practiced, and so it goes.
yep xin. think it may have been a party house. when at uni I had to move out of a party house in a few months that I was attracted to cos i was a poor student and the rent was cheap. Naivety on merediths part? who knows. my house in uk was effectively a coke den for middle to upper middle class coked up students. In Knoxs myspace she went to the house hunting 4 a place to live and met the girls there, bonded over a spliff according to her, who said deffo to her. they had maybe one other possibility they had to 'think about' - makes me think meredith was a bit too clean for them??? maybe she did spliffs, who knows??? but that's nothing.
and finally for tonight for me:
regards rumoured call from merediths phone to her bank. what if the plan was to drain merediths account. and to split / go on the run with the money. to help them fund a split. what if AK & RHG were in phone contact afterwards, cos at some point he expected them or her to join him on the run. was he lied to. did they change their minds. were they gonna clean, get away with it, and split??
shows how gullable he was.
--the mortician taking 3 suspects to the house on the day of/ day before their arrest. if the dirty mushroom knife theory holds. what if he was looking for the mushrooms & the mushroom knife. I read an article saying how the Italian police have video footage of the mushrooms/similar mushrooms being found in RSs fridge. the knife was found at his house too.---
good night all, can't wait to see what happens tomorrow xxxxxx
a2 "Her statement from prison was so blithe and in such sharp contrast to the recent statement from each of meredith's parents that I feel it was extremely offensive"
--------------------------
I agree totally. It might have been nice (even if untrue!) for her to express some sympathy for the grief the Kerchers are going through. . . but no, she is feeling 'serene' and has a 'second mum' as one of her inmates. Talk about rubbing salt in a wound. Meredith doesn't have a mum anymore - and here Knox is mouthing off about having 2! I can only wonder what her lawyers make of her.
I mean, even the nuns are fooled by her. I guess if she was fat, ugly and spotty - the nuns might not offer to house her!
OK, sorry I do not know the exact source of this, it has a CNN dateline, and they say she stays and so does he.
(rob: now it's a villa)
CNN (story date 11/29) claims to have a leaked report from the prosecutor:
PERUGIA, Italy (CNN) -- Police investigating the killing of British student Meredith Kercher in Italy earlier this month have evidence that places two of the suspects at the crime scene, according to a prosecutor's report.
Meredith Kercher was found dead in her villa November 2 with a knife wound to her neck.
CNN has obtained a copy of the report that Perugia's chief prosecutor will present at a hearing Friday to decide if Amanda Knox, 20, Kercher's American roommate, and Knox's boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, 23, can continue to be held in custody.
In the document, Giuliano Mignini says Knox's DNA matched a blood stain found on the sink in the bathroom next to the victim's bedroom. The report also points to a footprint found by forensic police near to Kercher's body that it says belonged to Sollecito.
"a2 "Her statement from prison was so blithe and in such sharp contrast to the recent statement from each of meredith's parents that I feel it was extremely offensive"
--------------------------
I agree totally. It might have been nice (even if untrue!) for her to express some sympathy for the grief the Kerchers are going through. . . but no, she is feeling 'serene' and has a 'second mum' as one of her inmates. Talk about rubbing salt in a wound. Meredith doesn't have a mum anymore - and here Knox is mouthing off about having 2! I can only wonder what her lawyers make of her.
soozie UK | 11.29.07 - 8:56 pm |"
Totally agree soozie & a2. I'm beginning to think Knox is mentally ill. That prison interview was totally bizaare.
I'm beginning to think Knox is mentally ill. That prison interview was totally bizaare.
Emily Booth | 11.29.07 - 9:20 pm | #
This may be exactly what she's trying to portray...a little insanity, anyone??
She's a sociopath, and she is responsible for her actions.
I agree xin...and her actions are beyond sickening.
I honestly don't think Amanda is playing the crazy card, but I don't think she's dealing with a full deck either...
She seems to have the self preservation instincts of a toddler or a puppy; recognizes her own needs (the "me" stage,) but hasn't quite gotten a grasp on concepts not involving Amanda.
I find it hard to believe that she isn't lucid enough to understand the severity of this "affair," but she really does seem removed from reality.
I to,really do not know what to make of Amanda's ramblings....Doesn't sound to good...But at this point,maybe I will just play it safe,and say it may have just been the edited version....
The more we hear her speak - the more vacuous she appears. Now we have a potential 'Singing Nun' who reads, watches TV, and has 'fun' with her new roomies.
I don't think she's mentally ill - I think she's an incompassionate little monster, who's grown up insensitive to other people's pain. She has not a shred of empathy for the Kerchers - and her actions after the murder (guilty or not) were clearly those of someone not bothered at all that an acquaintance had been murdered so viciously. No grieving, no remorse, nothing.
I find it incredible that she carries on as if nothing has happened, and doesn't spare a thought for anyone else. She accused an innocent man for starters - where the hell is her conscience? And on second thoughts. . . maybe she IS mentally ill.
...I am so glad you guys are over here - my puter refused to go past 11/22 on haloscan -I was super pissed - if I refreshed it would go less and less -
so many good posts - thanx guys -
the blood on the handle/blade must be from it seeping thru where the blade and handle meet - washing would not get rid of this - actually hydrogen peroxide gets rid of blood better than bleach -
in my mind they all committed murder when they left her there to die -
hydrogen peroxide you say?......Thanks pdx-77...............just kidding...glad you found the new thread
"I don't think she's mentally ill - I think she's an incompassionate little monster, who's grown up insensitive to other people's pain. She has not a shred of empathy for the Kerchers - and her actions after the murder (guilty or not) were clearly those of someone not bothered at all that an acquaintance had been murdered so viciously. No grieving, no remorse, nothing."
sociopath is shorthand for that
@ bcpl: You are too hung up on cookies. I have written and maintained many websites over a period of a decade. First, not all websites send cookies. In fact, the vast majority don't. Second, most browsers allow the accepting of cookies to be turned off, and many innocent people have it that way, as they dislike big corporations tracking their surfing habits. Third, there are many ways of using a computer other than web surfing. Hell, until a decade ago, most people used their machines as stand-alone boxes.
But if he was surfing, you are right that the ISP records will show it.
Luke - would you say sociopaths are mentally ill? I've often wondered whether the part of the brain that 'houses' the conscience is simply damaged - so the perpetrator is physically not capable of feeling remorse for their actions? I remember watching a documentary in which violent offenders and people who had never committed a crime watched a series of gruesome images (separately from each other).
The brain activity measured for 'normal' people was huge - but for the offender, hardly a change in activity at all - suggesting they're quite desensitised to the normal reactions that make us 'human'.
On a side note, quite a thought-provoking article here from a guy talking about rough sex with his girlfriend. When you read his background, he had about as much experience as Sollecito (one previous girlfriend) - and the girl he got involved with was a Knox clone!
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/
t...icle2968706.ece
Soozie,
I was a mental health worker as a Navy Corpsman, but I am not a doctor, so I don't know how qualified I am to answer that. My understanding is that Antisocial personality disorder is categorized as a "Cluster B" personality disorder, and personality disorders are a subset of mental illness.
I've always been of the opinion that a sociopath is mentally ill, but that the illness shouldn't be compared to most of the others, with exception to psychopathy.
I think where it gets tricky is diagnosis; most mentally ill people seem to be afflicted with any number of additional illnesses (a sociopath can also have depression, anxiety, etc.)
Again, I'm not a doctor, but I do have experience in the field (as well as an extensive family history of mental illness.)
Here's a nice resource that's NOT Wikipedia..lol
http://tinyurl.com/27ql55
the laundry list..
With all the respect for the posters, I didn't read them because it's already very late for me (Portugal: 3.58 a.m.), and so I don't have a real vision on the opinions stated here. Anyway I would like to leave a small reference here about Amanda Fox. This is an unfounded commentary only based on the first impressions gathered from the published news.
I feel we are before a crime that has a long course to go through. There are too many loose ends and Amanda Fox and boyfriend being accused seems, to me, to correspond to an urgent need to find a culprit(s). As it was stated in Steve's article, only the McCann child was so, or more, under the world media scrutiny as this case. It appears obvious the need to prevent similar accusations, as were produced against a foreign country's legal system and police forces, in order to produce a sacrifice bull to the althar.
I have no ideia at all about what has happened, and even if I am the one to believe that all human beings are potential murderers, there is something in this case that rings a bell.
C.
I'll
Thank you. I hate wikipedia.
Woops...
Just had a diagonal look at the posts...
Invoking newspapers, especially UK newspapers is no way to hold an opinion. I'm sorry folks, but in Europe, British media are very low rated for credibility (it appears that anyone can write an article on whatever subject and gets payed for the amount of words rather than for he quality of the contents). Do us a favour, keep the Brit press out of this case if you want an honest discussion.
Not all newspapers in London are tabloids. In fact, The Financial Times is a very important world-class business paper, and the Telegraph and Times are also credible, some of the others may be less so, but not all.
I agree, not all UK papers are tabloid. It's silly to generalise like this - there are some papers that only report facts which have been substantiated.
For 'News' - the BBC cannot be beaten.
"I'm beginning to think Knox is mentally ill. That prison interview was totally bizaare. Emily Booth" "This may be exactly what she's trying to portray...a little insanity, anyone?? Rhonda"- with her 1st prison statement, yes. and when I read the second one, I came to the same conclusion as you, but that was because I didn't know about her lawyers plea for release.==with her recent one, no, I disagree: any cold detatched, logical sociopath would seem alien. If you read her prison thing in the context of knowing that her lawyer would have hand-picked choice statements to 'tailor' a release plea *she wants to be released *she wants to prove she's not desperate to be released cos her cell is shabby, or she doesn't get on with others in it (hence her sorority comment) *but she slipped up, if charged she doesn't like the prison for people who have committed the crime she has *but then she covers that up with the fact she has "confidence" that her lawyer will get her off, if there is any evidence, so she won't be doing a runner *this is compounded by the fact she claims to love perugia & would like to settle there(it is so calculated)-not that she's been following the evidence as it is claimed she doesn't watch or read any press on the crime(yeah right)-this also could be read as when released she won't feel so hated by press & ppl in perugia&world that she'll do a rnner *she won't talk to the press if released *she'll stay with nuns *her lawyer probably told her what ppl 'profiled' in to her family life & this was addressed...In this context it makes perfectly sane & sober, sensible, but VERY VERY cold sense. Infact, I don't think she's 'crazy' and 'living in disneyworld' at all. she actually being intelligent about it. apart from the omission of any sorrow over MKs death-cos she is NOT capable of it IMHO.==this hearing will lay all the prosecutors evidence against her so far on the table. If she thinks there IS anything that would lead to her being found guilty despite a good lawyer. she WILL do a runner imho cos she hates 'bad prison' so much.
For 'News' - the BBC cannot be beaten.
soozie UK
agreed but they tend to follow any D-notice VERY strictly (something to do with press not being allowed to talk of certain things), and this can mean that some things are not reported by them.
the blood on the handle/blade must be from it seeping thru where the blade and handle meet - washing would not get rid of this - actually hydrogen peroxide gets rid of blood better than bleach -in my mind they all committed murder when they left her there to die - pdx-77
* great post *nooks & crannies.
*wonders if RS wore glasses if he was there during the murder*
I have been following this crime in the Italian and UK press for the past three weeks and also somewhat in this voluminous blog. One observation is that not a small amount of the so called evidence being agreed upon here (the facts, time lines, "who said what and when", etc.) reported in the press have contradicted one another between different publications and even between different articles in many of the same publications. A few here have already pointed this out and I think would agree with me that this is just shoddy reporting, poor editing and in the UK case probably bad translation.
In addition several have speculated that the police may be leaking false evidence to try and trip up the suspects into making self-incriminating statements and have also leaked so called evidence speculating themselves as to its possible meaning of the suspects complicity, only then never to bring it up again. So all of us should be careful about drawing hard and fast conclusions about any of these reports that are not completely logical and firmly repeated more than once and explained to and by reporters carefully.
That said, I was wondering what others have thought about the so called Ms. X and Mr X being involved in the past three days. That evidence had arisen from reports that evidence of two other people being present at 'the scene' did not match either the three current suspects or the victim.
This was described by one group of reporters as the investigators' finding 'organic human tissue' [sic] evidence at the murder scene, without saying in MK's room or just in the flat of the four female house mates. Another group of reports stated that the evidence was human fluids found on discarded 'tissues' outside the house. This I inferred must mean human cell's DNA sufficient in quantity to identify sex and type not matching to the original four. Thus, two more people were there. But when?
Then yesterday, almost as a trivial comment in reports from two of the same publications as above, that were focusing on todays hearing, stated that the so called matching had not been completed and in fact, might match the suspects. So go figure about this reporting.
My question is, is this other posters' conclusion on these mysterious additional persons, being more bad reporting than police facts or have I missed more conclusive reports that they do have evidence of two more unidentified persons and proof that they were all there during the: "party, meal, game, crime, and whatever all the rather over speculated scenes might have occurred"; and definitely not evidence that could have been left even a day or two before Nov 1st.
I would like to offer a piece of evidence the group here have confirmed several times from published reports for the time line a poster has been maintaining for updates: that at 10:15 pm that evening police reported that a call was placed from MK's cell phone (or could it have been the other flat mate's borrowed
With regards to the interview with Amanda in Prison, which I understand was conducted in Italian, is it possible that some of her expressions/words may have got lost in translation? I find it really odd that anyone would describe themselves as feeling 'serene.'
No-one I know routinely uses the word serene to describe how they're feeling and it seems especially odd for someone of that age (if you compare to the language used in her blog, it's very different). Of course, it might all just be part of her act.
I'm looking forward to - hopefully - finding out more later on, after the hearing with the judge. I would, however, be very surprised if Amanda is let out of prison. Maybe the reality may hit her more if she doesn't get let out.
Thinkingaboutit - I agree the phonecall at 10.15 is an important "reported" event. According to reports, it was made from MK's cellphone, to a number where the caller could find out how much credit was left on the cellphone card (but various commenters here and elsewhere have suggested that the call went to her bank and could have been connected with money.. ???).
If MK did make the call, this would suggest that the attack against her came after 10.15 but before 10.30, because witnesses have claimed that a black man "ran into" them near the cottage shortly after 10.30. This scenario would actually leave very little time for the rape and murder.
My feeling is that someone else made the call at 10.15. This is pure SPECULATION, but in my view by that time MK's phones were being held by someone else - in my timeline, by RHG. As the attack on MK began, I believe RHG may have made the call as an additional way of humiliating MK. [RHG: "You want you phone back MK? Well, let me see; how much credit is there on this phone?"] As RHG was saying these words, RS began threatening with the knives, while AK patiently awaited her turn.
My thoughts on any impact of AK's mental condition and potentially serious personality disorders. She very well could be feigning insanity, suffering substantial dissociation, or just being a true sociopathic person. However, for reasons of law the definition of insane or insane at the time of the crime (including temporary insanity) has a different meaning from the definition in a clinical sense (DSM IV).
Thus, I wish to ask the question of those here who understand the factor of insanity in Italian law in capital crimes to comment on and share that concept as practiced in Italy. For comparison purposes in most states in the USA with guidance from several federal courts appeals the application of insanity defense requires that the defendant was, at the time of the crime, incapable of knowing or determining whether her/his actions were right or wrong.
A person who is psychotic/delusional is most likely to be in this mental state of not knowing right from wrong actions. However, classic sociopathic persons are usually well aware of the difference between society's meaning of right or wrong. Their mental state and actions rest on their brains inability to feel any guilt or remorse for their actions, or any ethics and morality of what is acceptable and legal behavior in society. In fact, they believe that their actions are in fact the "right" ones for the very reason that they lack those qualitative functions in their own brains and resulting personalities. In fact it is more like only they exist and everyone else is merely just a reflection of themselves and not really an "other" like themselves.
So I definitely agree with the poster[s] that state: if she did it and if she is a clinically diagnosed sociopath, she is still responsible for her crimes in the eye of society's law.
Loz - You're right about the word "serene". It's probably an all too literal translation of the Italian word "serena" - which also means "calm". I think AK probably meant she was feeling calm.
I meant Liz, not Loz - Apologies.
@AndyT:
Yes, agreed. Thanks for your reply. Sorry I guess I cut off some of my post there but I do not see a limit and a counter on the number characters for a single post.
Anyway you continued my very thoughts. Was this also the so called call to MK's bank. After reading your reply post I think it might have been. Again a reporting flaw as you imply. Call the carrier for account balance on the phone.....means call her bank for the balance.....meaning what her flatmate was reported to have said when she loaned MK her own phone. "That's MK phone was out of credit for calls".
I also would have to go with your conclusion that the actual stabbing had to have occurred before say 10:00 PM for them to realized she was dead or dying, and what to do as next steps. The RG persons runs, the thinking persons think fast. Make a call, make it appear that MK is alive at that time. Perhaps they tried another number and found there was no credit left and thus the call diverted to the customer service function to say: "sorry you have no available minutes to complete this call". But then if that was their cover up logic why not place a call on the borrowed phone? Perhaps, that wouldn't have covered anything for them if they did not realize why MK had the other phone or even who the other phone belonged to. But I'll wait for the trial for the actual time line of these events.
Thanks for filling in the gap here.
And now there's mention of a white car - could it belong to the mystery couple?
"Police are investigating his claim [RHG] that a small white car was stopped outside the house at the time of the murder.
A similar car was caught by closed circuit television cameras leaving the car park opposite the house later on in the night."
From:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith130.xml
Both RS and AK have proclaimed their innocence in front of the judges today. AK says she was not in the house.
They arrived seperately and will not see or meet each other inside. AK appeared to be "calm and smiling", RS also seemed calm, wearing a suit. AKs meeting with the judges lasted about 2 hours.
AKs lawyers say AKs and Meredith's DNA both being on the knife can be explained as resulting from the girls using the knife on seperate occasions. They also claim that the murderer of Meredith must have been a 'robust' man working along, strangling her.
RS' lawyers still say he never left his house that night and claim they will prove the computer alibi. Also again that the bloody footstep doesn't correspond to RS' shoes and that the knife was not the murder weapon.
The Tribunal will make its decisions about their custody before midnight, tonight.
sorry, forgot to add the link to my source for my previous post.
http://www.lastampa.it/
redazione...28031girata.asp
so if MK & AK used th knife on seperat occassions. so it was their knife. why was it at RSs house?
he has enough knives of his own.
it's the murder knife, I speculate it's RS's knife.
video panel on here has the news of todays judgement
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
...anel_index.html
Yes Loz, the knife is supposed to have been taken from RS's place to AK's place and then back again on the day/night of the murder (coz other residents of AK's house stated to LE that they'd never seen it before). If I recall correctly, RS's lawyers have argued (according to reports) that MK visited RS's place with AK several times before the night of the murder (this explaining her dna on the knife). LE, however, maintain that MK never went to RS's place.
I think the knife may prove to be THE incriminating piece of evidence - as long as LE can prove that MK never visited RS's place. Fortunately, MK kept a diary, so this may be easy for LE to ascertain.
The knife incriminates AK forensically and RS locationally. RS's lawyers seem very concerned about this knife; they've also been claiming that MK's dna was found on the handle rather than on the tip - i.e. that she must have been at RS's place previously or she must have cut up the mushrooms or something...
I'm curious to see what RS's lawyers will be claiming next. We should pay attention to this, because, as Damian has pointed out, "Team RS" have employed a very crafty medical expert witness.
"I would like to offer a piece of evidence the group here have confirmed several times from published reports for the time line a poster has been maintaining for updates: that at 10:15 pm that evening police reported that a call was placed from MK's cell phone (or could it have been the other flat mate's borrowed"
It's quite possible that this call could have been made by one of the killers as part of the premeditation, if it was premeditated. I don't think they would have the mental capacity to use the phone as part of a cover up, if the death was accidental. (especially when you consider all of the other oversights that were made.)
It is my understanding that Rafe's and Amanda's defensive teams strategy is to place all of the onus on Rudy.
I still doubt that either will implicate themselves this early on. Maybe if they are ruled to stay in prison for a year, one of them will crack.
Did she really "break down" in court or were those crocodile tears?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith230.xml Yes Luke....Maybe she cracked....reality hitting hard now I think...
The tricky part is deciding whether she is sorry for her actions or just sorry that she got caught.
This isn't particularly good...
http://tinyurl.com/39mfr9
BERLIN (Reuters) - German authorities are delaying the extradition of a man suspected of being involved in the brutal murder of British student Meredith Kercher until they receive more information from Italy, prosecutors said on Friday.
Rudy is smarter than a lot of people think....
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/
video...mandas.cell.cnn Animated look at what Amandas prison cell looks like...
I'm getting tired of hearing how pretty and sweet her smile is...I haven't heard anyone talk about how handsome and sweet Raffaele's or Hermann's smile is.
This girl definitely knows how to work her audience.
Patrick called her the "ultimate actress."
Anty T said: "Yes Loz, the knife is supposed to have been taken from RS's place to AK's place and then back again on the day/night of the murder (coz other residents of AK's house stated to LE that they'd never seen it before)."
---
yes IMHO, the mushroom knife was the murder weapon, I agree. IMHO It was his mushroom knife. and I can only think that it was returned to RS house because it was part of a 'set' and that he/they thought it would have been conspicuous in it's absence.
--the mortician taking 3 suspects to the house on the day of/ day before their arrest. if the dirty mushroom knife theory holds. what if he was looking for the mushrooms & the mushroom knife. I read an article saying how the Italian police have video footage of the mushrooms/similar mushrooms being found in RSs fridge. the knife was found at his house too.--- continued...
I don't think there was premeditation in the death of Meredith, but something went very awry in that house, and the suspects were left with trying to cover it up. Their puny, drug-addled, self-involved brains could only do so much to obscure the evidence. As I stated earlier, if neither AK nor RS were there when Meredith died, one consistent true story would have emerged about their whereabouts. Like PL's story of innocence--proven to be true.
Everything--phone records, computer usage, DNA--tells a story, and I'm sure that ILE are not sharing all they know. All the questions we ask here will have been answered in the investigation--about the mushrooms (did Meredith eat some or was a mushroom planted in her throat); where the 10:00 pm phone call went to and from which phone (bank or cell service provider, Meredith's personal phone or that of her roommate); what kind of washer the apt has; whose blood, etc., was found in the apt downstairs; verified whereabouts of Meredith's other roommates and her boyfriend and his roommates; etc.
ILE will know, to a large extent, when a suspect's statements diverge from the physical evidence.
As to RS's claim of computer use the night of Meredith's death, a forensic computer analysis will show far beyond what the average user is able to ferret out of a machine. It can show in-depth history of use and recreate deleted files, show attempts to erase, add, or edit timestamps and files--answers that will show proof of how the computer was actually used, or not used, as the case may be. Cookies and the like are only an eensy tip of the iceberg when it comes to establishing computer usage.
And again, the fact that Meredith's family has faith that ILE are doing a proper investigation gives me much hope her murderers will be brought to justice.
cont...a musroom was said to be found in MKs esophagus...
The esophagus, a narrow, muscular tube about 20 centimeters (8 inches) long...[B]It takes only seconds for food to pass through the esophagus, and little digestion actually takes place.[/B]
--so, the kitchen knife had a mushroom stuck to it / on it.---
she could have had the meal which explains the mozzerella...then after a stray mushroom stuck to the knife, she was stabbed, the mushroom entered her esophagus directly through her wound. Unless they put the knife in her mouth first.-----
***I think RS laywers said the wound was too big to be that knife. however, if they wiggled the knife about, kind of explains how a musroom or piece of could have ended up in there, rather than just on the outside of her neck**** another plausable & more likely explanation as Xin said was MK regurgitated.
""On Sunday [[1st sunday after the murder before arrest]] evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate."" from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2811736.ece
NANA said "don't think there was premeditation in the death of Meredith"
the mushroom knife being used seems to confirm this.
however, maybe mks bank was phoned to fund a split tey were planning. why at no point did they stop? - maybe this is too far fetched.
was rhg in trouble with bigger fish in the drug world, and AK had to pay him?
MK wasn't just stabbed once, she was violently attacked. unless the broken hyroid [sic] was from post-mortem in possible moving of her body.
yep, using mushroom knife looks like impulsive action. the pen-knife wounds do not & they contradict this. and these wounds also mean that not JUST one person was going to murder her IMHO. uness she was threatened for money with the pen knife?
Tears now? (lawyer to AK: Gee, AK, it would look really good for the court if you would cry when asserting your innocence in this matter.) "I confirm I am innocent. I am sorry for [accusing] Patrick and for the whole situation," she said.
Where's the to-the-point "I'm sorry Meredith was killed-is dead-was murdered" statement? She just cannot seem to say it, can she?
Everyone is sorry for the whole situation, and I don't need to hear it from her. What a piece of work.
IF she is innocent (and I obviously don't believe she is), then let's hear where she was, who she was with, when she ate, what she ate, all of it. She cannot do it.
"Professor Carlo Torre, Knox's forensic expert, said the knife is too large to be compatible with the wound and that the DNA evidence is uncertain."
ah, sorry, so smaller wound, larger Knife. Murders the mushroom knife theory.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith230.xml
wonder if RHG had dealer friends there that night. and they threatened all of them, or RS & AK said 'she's got money / RHG is her dealer'?
why are they NOT coming forward with the truth of that night. both rs & ak can get 'protection'. and why no words for meredith?
Lots of thoughts this morning.
Regarding the strength needed to strangle someone or break the hyoid (?) bone in the throat: I have a daughter who has very strong hands and fingers, and I think she could do great bodily harm to another girl if she wanted to. She has brought tears to my eyes when massaging a stress point in my back, and her grip could leave bruises, I'm sure.
A comment, too, about rock climbing: A climbing instructor once told me that the trick to climbing was to use the legs, and not the upper body. I have an overweight friend who made a successful climb, and she had no upper-body strength to speak of, but her legs were in good shape from walking a lot.
AK could have hands and fingers that are like my daughter's--overly strong for her size and weight--and coupled with a strong determination to harm, I think AK could very well have been the one to strangle/break the hyoid bone in Meredith.
are they protecting MKs image?
Lots of thoughts this morning.
Regarding the strength needed to strangle someone or break the hyoid (?) bone in the throat: I have a daughter who has very strong hands and fingers, and I think she could do great bodily harm to another girl if she wanted to. She has brought tears to my eyes when massaging a stress point in my back, and her grip could leave bruises, I'm sure.
A comment, too, about rock climbing: A climbing instructor once told me that the trick to climbing was to use the legs, and not the upper body. I have an overweight friend who made a successful climb, and she had no upper-body strength to speak of, but her legs were in good shape from walking a lot.
AK could have hands and fingers that are like my daughter's--overly strong for her size and weight--and coupled with a strong determination to harm, I think AK could very well have been the one to strangle/break the hyoid bone in Meredith.
Nana | 11.30.07 - 11:28 am | #
------
agreed, and if you add further physics like AK pushing MK to the wall or floor while her hand was on her neck, or using two thumbs as an intense pressure point...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ne...ime'/
article.do couple of shitty pictures of the 2 suspects arriving at court....Just heard on the local news(TV)...that Amanda was denied release...Nothing on RS yet
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Intern...tory?
id=3935113 ABC news confirms...Amanda still to be held......Who what a thought
The house in which Meredith lived in Perugia
PERUGIA - The court of review has rejected the request for release by Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge. Remain in prison former boyfriend accused the death Meredith Kercher. This morning both had proclaimed their innocence but for the pm, the picture has not changed accusatory: "The evening and night between 1 and 2 November, the two former boyfriends were in the house of horrors where they played an active and they tried to erase the traces evidence. " For the prosecutor, the two detainees were rimenere in prison because higher the risk of leakage or contamination of evidence.
Google translation La Repubblica 11/30/07
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...-
tribunale.html
sky news, in reporting on the verdict:
American Amanda Knox and EX-BOYFRIEND Raffaele Sollecito
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1295082,00.html
chris was like:
> Luke, not like you can have faith in leaked reports, but they do say that sex > between rudy and meredith happened before sex.
But how can you be sure the sex didn't happen after sex?
are they REALLY to remain in prison, or are they going to be shielded away from the world in 'safe-houses'?
sex before sex... the case gets more confusing by the second.
I wonder if Amanda didn't spill the beans on Rudy because they were afraid of Rudy and all his drug friends. Also their drug supplies would dry up pretty quick. Nobody would deal with them anymore. Plus they would have to constantly watch their back. See no evil, hear no evil {with your hands over their ears).
just noticed dna on the knife was said to be 'labile' - does this mean 'sticky'/'runny'?
But DWL, why did they then stage the break-in? And what about the blood they smeared downstairs? Was this all to cover up for Rudy, so they still had their drug supply?
Or are you suggesting Rudy, acting on his own, cleaned the whole flat with bleach and staged the break-in?
DLW - maybe who knows.
but I still think they planned to 'assasinate' her.
Plus, they would have at least
* called an ambulance for MK,
* wouldn't have shopped for underwear the day after
* would have expressed more 'shock' and 'sorrow' and had more 'kind words' for meredith.
------------
I guess the judge said he'll give reasons why they are to remain beind bars in the coming days. we may be able to build more of a picture.
But DWL, why did they then stage the break-in? And what about the blood they smeared downstairs? Was this all to cover up for Rudy, so they still had their drug supply?
Or are you suggesting Rudy, acting on his own, cleaned the whole flat with bleach and staged the break-in?
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 12:30 pm | #
no, what if it was a drug gang somone owed money to & RHG had lead his superiors to the house?
still, as posted just above, I believe they (AK & RS) were "too cool" afterwards to have been distressed by the murder.
Luke: "The tricky part is deciding whether she is sorry for her actions or just sorry that she got caught"
Cynical though it sounds - I think she's just teed off that she got caught and not sorry about her actions at all. I think her lack of remorse immediately after the event (and since) has portrayed perfectly well the kind of person she is.
Anyway, she has all these new 'friends' in prison now, plus the Priest is quite taken with her and the nuns want to house her - I think the right decision was made to keep them both inside. Someone knows something, that much is obvious - and until someone actually starts telling the truth as it happened - and not as it happened in their 'dreams' - prison is the only place for them.
Did anyone read that Guede accused Knox of stealing money of Meredith for drugs on the same day she was murdered? Sorry if that's 'old news' now - but I was very surprised he brought it up seeing as how she hasn't mentioned him at all.
Also, I think Knox has probably been able to talk her way out of trouble all her life. She was 'looking forward' to speaking to the judge and clearing her name. I think she automatically expected that by this evening, she'd be in the nunnery with her guitar and some books!
How she thought the judge would buy her ludicrous story is yet another example of how deluded she is.
She said she was 'sorry' about Patrick - but she was over eager to tell the Police that she 'covered her ears' while Patrick murdered Meredith. No matter what kind of stress anyone is under during a police interview - it is not 'normal' behaviour to accuse an innocent person. Do you think she gives a damn about what she did to him? Of course not. If she was involved in this horribe murder and cover up - then accusing Patrick would mean nothing to her in the great scheme of things.
---------------------------
No theories here. Just a comment about AK's personality. She reminds me A LOT of my first college roommate who was attractive and smart, but a pathological liar and used her lies as well as a purported fondness for sex as her tools to attract attention and (perhaps more importantly) pull attention away from anyone else in the vicinity. She had everything going for her except a personality flaw that made her use those attributes to force and fake relationships instead of just have real ones.
She had multiple personalities. Not in a "mental illness" way, but in a very calculated way to maximize the attention she could get from whomever she had in her sights at the moment. She turned herself into whoever she thought the other person would be bowled over by. I'm still amazed that she had the smarts to pull it off, but that she used those smarts for such a poor purpose.
She had a rotating cast of men and would often have sex with them without worrying whether I was in the room or not (and it's not like colleg freshman guys ever cared!). Sex always struck me as the ultimate power play for her. She had them completely under her spell and the 24-36 hours of undivided attention before she moved on to the next guy seemed to feed her.
I eventually had to ask to be placed with a new roommate. Not long after that, she took up with a foreign student. He was from Greece and his family was reported to be quite wealthy. My impression was that she had found someone who helped make her look more important and was very unlikely to figure out all of her past lies -- he would be easy to manipulate.
I never got to know her well enough to know why she was like this. I do believe that she didn't like herself at all. She didn't like who she was, and all she knew how to do was "use" what she was to feel better for a few days at a time.
I would never have thought her capable of violence, but I do believe that if the guy she was working hardest on at the time had expressed fantasies, etc., she would do her best to make it seem like she not only shared those interests but she was interested at a level that he found aspirational.
Luke "Rudy is smarter than a lot of people think...."
Do you really think so? I think he's as dumb as the rest of them, dumber even. He had several days on the run to come up with a plausible excuse for where he was that night - what he did etc - and what does he come up with? First, he says he wasn't at the house. . . then he WAS at the house, but didn't have sex with Meredith - then he WAS at the house and DID have sex with Meredith, but unfortunately, while he was having a crap in the toilet while listening to his iPod - a mystery assassin slashed Meredith's throat - and after a brief struggle with the 'murderer', they both fled.
We don't know where the 'mystery man' went - but we know Guede went dancing after Meredith was murdered. How dumb are ALL his actions and ALL his words. I'm beginning to think this trio don't even share an entire brain cell.
Someone yesterday (Loz?) said, "What if she is released?" No one responded. I was horrified at the idea. But then I read about the prosecutor in another case, jailing a journalist investigating the Monster of Florence crimes. The prosecutor sounds like a real cowboy, so I figured, few escape his clutches, and he sounds smart.
MK cell call at 10:15> maybe this was part of an attempt to threaten MK to withdraw money, and the early injuries ahd to do with getting her to give up more money. This sounds to me like the actions of a street thug.
Mushroom: I still think she vomited.
We should have more and more come out on this hearing to consider and evaluate. It may be starting to sink in to Amanda that this is not a lark (a lively little adventure). Her family must be freaked out. Her defense (and their support, as in another home in Perugia for a while) could/will take everything they have.
[The ubiquitous ("everywhere", all over the place: you-bik-quit-us; this is a great word)) white car. Aren't we still looking for a white car from the car accident that killed Prin Diana?]
Nice to see some new faces here.
Blood was all over the walls because Rudy kept playing in it. I'm not sure if it didnt seep through the floor joints. Meredith may have thought about getting Amanda evicted. Anything not nailed, bolted, or glued down was ending up missing. Amanda just didn't care what happened to her.
I don't have a grand theory on the cover up yet, doesn't add up other than they may have thought thought they were going to be implicated if they didn't cover their own tracks.
If they would have thrown away the knife's, shoes, if Amanda had taken a different route there, and if the cops didn't come so soon. There would be lot less direct evidence on them.
chris was like:
> Luke, not like you can have faith in leaked reports, but they do say that sex > between rudy and meredith happened before sex.
But how can you be sure the sex didn't happen after sex?
todger | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 12:19 pm | #
LOL--Sorry meant to say sex before death!!!
"Professor Carlo Torre, Knox's forensic expert, said the knife is too large"...
Loz | 11.30.07 - 11:21 am | #
The very first report on this crime in English (I've misplaced this page, but will find it) says the weapon used was [probably] a knife, or a screwdriver. I recall that this story was before MK was identifed. That must have been one ugly and painful cut, but distinguished in its wound.
xin - I also remember reading from the intitial 'leaks' that a piece of glass could have been the murder weapon. Police mentioned a screwdriver or glass.
thanks sooz, (and for defending the BBC), at any rate, that wound was messy and UGLY.
Luke,
AK's comments before the Judge were:
"I'm sorry about Patrick. I'm sorry about the whole situation. I'm innocent. I was at Raffaele's house."
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?
Looks like one of Amanda's cellmates braided her hair.
Sounds like RS showed up in a suit, but Amanda wore *steet clothes* making me think her mother didn't take care of her once again. Inappropriate, disrespectful attire. Not smart in Italy. Mom should know one must dress for success (as RS did, he is distinguished from AK in as many ways possible). I mean, Italy, of all places. Poor Amanda. No one to show her the way.
BY the way, we haven't heard much from Papa Sollecito lately. Maybe the gravity of the situation is occurring to him at the same time Amanda is beginning to face her future.
the whole 'situation' as in, this mess she's in. Because it's all about her. Meredith who?
>
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?<
AN expansive word, it bundles AKs behavior in with the death of MK, the lying, the crime.
I can't wait to see my niece next weekend. She is a PhD forensic psychologist, works with big baddies in a prison setting.
I'm going to print stuff out for her. Maybe I should ask her to do a drop-in Q & A.
Minneapolis commenting about roommate "I would never have thought her capable of violence, but I do believe that if the guy she was working hardest on at the time had expressed fantasies, etc., she would do her best to make it seem like she not only shared those interests but she was interested at a level that he found aspirational."
I know what you're alluding to, and it could well be what happened to AK.
Basically, she met a rich young Italian guy who's into wild, sadistic sex and has an obsession with knives. She just combined the two...
Thank you Minneapolis.
When I asked Luke about AK's use of the word 'situation,' I was rhetorically asking whether or not AK was admitting that she was the chief instigator of the the 'party'(sex, drugs and rock & roll) held there that night at the cottage. Obviously, she is knee-deep in the 'situation' now, and though many might think her teary-eyed speech was a put on, I think she is coming, albeit slowly(given her sociopathic nature)to grips with the fact that she is not leaving prison anytime soon.
xin, that would be interesting, if not the Q & A...just her opinion on AK's behavior. Has she followed this case at all?
Bpcl I agree, and I think AK's comment in her scrawl that Perugia is the place for her, is another sign that she is (subconsciously) coming to terms with her (present and future) predicament.
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...-
tribunale.html
Amanda told to her mother "that night I was in the there".
police recorded conversation of Amanda and her mother.
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?<
AN expansive word, it bundles AKs behavior in with the death of MK, the lying, the crime.
I can't wait to see my niece next weekend. She is a PhD forensic psychologist, works with big baddies in a prison setting.
I'm going to print stuff out for her. Maybe I should ask her to do a drop-in Q & A.
xin | 11.30.07 - 2:34 pm | #
Xin that'd be great if she can!
thanks for elaborating on the wound & possible weapons that caused it.
Hi... Does anyone else think that Raeffele looks like Harry Potter? Hehe!
Good idea for your niece to drop in for Q&A, Id be interested to see her take on this...
I can't find info about anyone stating there was a party... did Rudy say that? Just wondering.. and Sorry if I missed this somewhere, I tried to go back over all of the posts and couldn't find it.. But then again, I am at work.. and really should be working
Amanda's lawyer says she meant she was in Sollecito's house.
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...-
tribunale.html
Francesco, excellent find!
so, meredith had her own washbasin, in her room, on which AKs blood should not have been. and there was also a 'trail' of blood on a shared bidet.
and rhg says he, ak & rs were having group sex, an then ak instigated the attempted attack on mk.
i'm feeling 'visionary' :S
The arrival of urge
In court
PERUGIA - The court of review has rejected the request for release by Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge. Remain in prison former boyfriend accused the death Meredith Kercher. This morning both had proclaimed their innocence but for the pm, the picture has not changed accusatory: "The evening and night between 1 and 2 November, the two former boyfriends were in the house of horrors where they played an active and they tried to erase the traces evidence. " According to the prosecutor's arguments, upheld by the courts of review, the two detainees must rimenere in prison because higher the risk of leakage or contamination of evidence.
Against Amanda check un'intercettaziione environmental recorded during a colloquo in prison with his mother. In the interview, the student in Seattle would support inter alia: "That night I was there". It talks of shopping once again free. According to the hypothesis accusatoria the words of the girl would be an admission of his presence in the house of the crime but lawyers offer a different interpretation of the phrase: "Amanda was referring to the home of Raffaele urge not to Meredith. But then traces of his DNA and that of Meredith observed a kitchen knife point in the index against Amanda, and a spot of blood on the sink's tap of the victim, even if the college defensive dell'americana believes that the track the knife is labile''and''over there just by chance.
Against Raffaele weighs instead of a signature shoe found near the corpse of Meredith (s defenders argue that the imprint of tennis shoe is not compatible with those of graduate Bari), the expertise of the police post did not find confirmation use Computer Raffaele night in evidence (expert opposite was presented by the College defensive), and receipts that show the purchase of some bottles of bleach used, as the charge, to erase the stains of blood. "All false," said Raffaele the courts. "I am innocent". And then he repeated: "That night I was at home working on my computer.
"I am innocent," he repeated today also Amanda Knox judges to the court. "That night was not in the house at Meredith. Me is very sorry for Patrick and for the whole situation." The reference is Patrick Lumumba, the Congolese musician that the American student, at first, had accused the death Meredith but that the judges have released two weeks later for lack of evidence.
"I confirm what I wrote in the memorial," said Amanda. "I am innocent, not c'entro with the assassination of the first November. Return I freely. The girl had entered a palace of justice around nine and a half and had left the court room two and a half hours later. His lawyers had appeared satisfied. "We explained our conviction about the lack of evidence against the girl," said the lawyer Luciano Ghirga. "Now we await the filing of the reasons that happen in the next few days", concluded lawyers.
The two ex-boyfriend, although sitting in ad
umm, yeah that's what it says when you hit "translate page into English" not very complete, right?
Jenny:
You'll want to read the news articles contained in the posts, or go to UK pubs and search to get a collection of links. Harry P similarities noted early-on (you can find a nice list of uk pubs at
http://www.drudgereport.com
Scroll down, and the list of UK daily papers is bottom left.. I'm afraid most of us here are unable to go backwards, there is just TMI (too much information) and we've been adjusting for updates as we go. (Drudge is best source for Cali earthquake info too).
The original thread has some real brilliancy in it, but it has become unwieldly which is why everyone is moving over here. [Some posters don't have enough memory in their machines to load the whole thing.]
Old thread:
http://tinyurl.com/2cp4ph
(def worth a skim-read; gigantic)
Then should you become braver (if you are not fluent in Italian) you can go to the Italian papers and use the rough but adequate Google translator to decipher. You can collect links to those here. Italian tv is very visual,so even stuck in English, you see great footage, and will understand much of it.
The more you know the more you will be able to add! AndyT has started a timeline, above.
Some of this you already know, I'm sure, but thought I'd bundle up a message for newer sleuths.
••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Meredith Rest in Peace
"translate page into English" not very complete, right?
belle | 11.30.07 - 3:34 pm |
It helps if you know a little Italian.
BUT mainly: no he/she, it's all "it or he."
Sollecito means "prompt or urge."
Mentally, rearrange the sentence clauses.
(My college Italian is slowly improving, reading the newspaper and trans helps with vocab and patterns of speech.)
Thank you! I have a pretty firm grip on all of the events as they have unfolded... and I appreciate your help... I started reading about 2 weeks go, so I was on the old thread ... But somewhere I missed the article where someone said that there was a "party" at the flat that night... Try as I may, I havent been able to find out who said that... But thank you
Ah...the bleach receipts found at RSs place came up at his hearing, according to Reppublica article above, so these are still evidence.
"Party" comes up in many of the articles appearing since they caught Rudy. Used a lot in those more recent accounts.
"Party": also coincides with the giallo couple since there may be 6 people in the room, and they ate.
Correire.it
"The Courier" has an English edition, this is a good paper.
They say Patrick was also called in today.
http://tinyurl.com/3cp2oj
(I'm sorry to be dripping in info, but maybe it will save some of us time after work...or in a rush)
Here's the Correire (English edition) current article:
Italy Police Question 3 Over
Uk Student's Murder
Meredith Kercher, 21, was found in her bedroom hidden under a duvet and semi-naked with a deep cut to the throat
ROME - Italian poliche brought three people in for questioning on tuesday over the brutal murder of an english student in the University town of Perugia last week, including the girl's American flatmate.
Meredith Kercher, 21, was found in her bedroom on Friday -- which was locked from the inside -- hidden under a duvet and semi-naked with a deep cut to the throat. The murder has resonated around Europe where thousands of young people take a year away from their home university to study abroad under the Erasmus exchange scheme.
Her parents were due to arrive in Perugia, central Italy, later on Tuesday. Police questioned Kercher's female flatmate -- a 20-year-old American who is studying Italian at Perugia -- as well as two men: the American's 24-year-old Italian student boyfriend and a 37-year-old Congolese man who runs a shop in the town, police chief Arturo De Felice told Reuters by telephone.
Interior Minister Giuliano Amato told a news conference: «It's an ugly story in which people which this girl had in her home, friends, tried to force her into relations which she didn't want». The three have not been charged or formally arrested.
Although an autopsy found no evidence of rape, De Felice said there were reasons to suspect a sexual assault. «A sexual motive is probable,» he said. Kercher was in her third year at Leeds University.
(Reuters- Reporting by Antonella Cinelli; Writing by Liz Rusbridger; Editing by Caroline Drees)
ahhh.. I get it.. I think So it wasn't a party per se... as I would think of a party... in Italy they just say party as in more than 3 people... okay gotcha...
OOOPPPPSSSS STOP: IS old article. Sorry, it appears the new date on
the masthead, with an older article.
but we can navigate to find newer stuff.
Jenny,
I believe that RGH was the first one to say that he attended a party at the cottage that night. Now why is a drug pusher going to show up, on a holiday weekend at the cottage. RGH has also stated that he arrived there at 8:38 pm in the evening.(How is that for being fashionably early?) Another figure, a female is seen entering the premises about 8 minutes later, according to the timeline now being constructed by AndyT here.
Many people here believe that the female figure caught on CCTV at 8:46 pm,(wearing light clothing) is AK. It has yet to be proven, however there is good circumstantial evidence pointing to the fact that RS was also in the cottage that evening(A bloody shoeprint has been found with the same irregularity as his). The Police have stated that the DNA of at least two other persons(referred here as Mr. X and Ms. X) were also in attendance. RGH has stated, and DNA has proven that he had sex with Meredith. He has said it was consensual, however, I would never believe that a majority of women, including Meredith, would consent to sexual contact while their bodies are menstruating.
Both AK and RS were habitual drug users as well as thrill giving sex addicts. I cannot speak for the behavioral patterns of mysterious couple as of yet. All of these facts would lead me to believe that this was a planned party(most students were out of town due to the holiday, Meredith would be leaving the following day for her Mother's birthday) about sex and drugs(The sole reason for which RGH was invited.)
Thank you SO much bpcl. That was so nice of you to write all of that out for me. I feel bad
I am right there with you as to how all of the events unfolded... I have a pretty good understanding of all of the news reports... It was just the word party that threw me off...
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to do that!!
I just can't wait until all of the story is revealed... I'm dying to see a transcript of Rudy's statement to police... that should be interesting. Its frustrating that we are getting bits a pieces of it...
Andy T
"Basically, she met a rich young Italian guy who's into wild, sadistic sex and has an obsession with knives"
I heard that Knox was only Sollecito's second girlfriend - so while he might have had an obsession with knives, it would have been Knox who was into 'wild sadistic sex'. There's been nothing at all reported about Sollecito's sex life to indicate he had a wild love life. And I'm sure if there'd been something to 'leak' - we'd have heard about it by now.
Oh, I've just seen another person - bpcl - also mentioned: "Both AK and RS were habitual drug users as well as THRILL GIVING SEX ADDICTS"
Has someone read more about Sollecito's sex life than we've seen in the UK papers? I can't find any reference to the fact his sex life was either sadistic or habitually violent. Does anyone have a link to these references as I've clearly missed some information here. Thanks
xin YES! please ask her. While a host of posters have expertise (seattleite is a lawyer but not in crimlaw, while i work the history/literature angle, dabbling in Myth & Jung), she has up-to-date, study-based working knowledge. But don't wear out your welcome with her! Just give the simple outlines & some of the satements (noting the translation issues), and tell us what she thinks.
General Note to relatively new posters. A LOT of information is over at the original thread along with links to still available newspaper (both UK & Italian, thanks middie et al). PLEASE take the time, say AFTER work, to review stuff there: the Harry Potter idea got well worked over, quite seriously given Amanda's blogged fixation on the "hero". Also, there's background on her family but we await a feature article from an intrepid Seattle P-I reporter on her & her family.
continued
Tape 'puts Knox at Meredith murder scene'
By Malcolm Moore in Perugia
Last Updated: 8:42pm GMT 30/11/2007
Dramatic evidence has emerged linking the American woman accused of murdering Meredith Kercher to the scene of the crime, according to Italian police.
Meredith suspects refused bailadvertisement
Amanda Knox was secretly recorded talking to her parents while in prison. Their conversation suggests the 20-year-old was present when her British flatmate was killed, it is claimed.
The new allegation was revealed as Knox broke down in tears when she appeared before a court and pleaded her innocence.
Miss Kercher, 21, was found with her throat cut in the house she shared with Knox in the Italian city of Perugia a month ago. Police believe she had been subjected to an "extreme" sex game before being killed.
A police source said last night: "From the bugged recording it is possible to understand that she [Knox] was in the house. She denies everything, but we did submit this evidence today."
...Both suspect's legal teams tried to pin the blame for the killing on Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, from the Ivory Coast. Guede fled Italy in the wake of the murder and was arrested last week in Germany.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith101.xml
The Telegraph UK 11/30/07
This last bit may be the necessary push Rudy to start talking about others' involvement??
Sounds like RS was a conservative loaner with serious obsessions (knives, onscreen violence) [early loss of mother], and then, bingo, it all changed with AK.
This is NEWS to me:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith101.xml
Knox admitted to her mother she WAS at the house during a taped conversation.
[OK, RM: I'll see if Dr. C is following this case, otherwise hit her with some print, I'll call her tonight. I'm a lit person too and looking forward to your next analysis. Dr. C, young and brilliant]
AH: secret tapes. Moms and Mandy didn't think of that (nor the plant in the cell)
Secret tapes sounds like her lawyer is asleep at the wheel even if he signed on later...and no warning against the journal.
Time for the understatement: AK is F.U.C.K.E.D.
bpcl: It has been established that Meredith wasn't leaving for England until the next Friday, December 9.
That information about the "mushroom" knife not being the murder weapon came from Knox's "forensic expert," not the police, so I would expect such a pronouncement from her defense team.
I don't think that AK's mother wasn't taking care of her by allowing her to appear in court so informally. AK's legal team must have known exactly what she would wear, so I'm guessing it was their idea to present her as a young, plain student instead of a vixen in finery wearing makeup.
Thank you xin, I actually did use the Google translator before on the Italian article and just found it funny that someone posted the exact translation here.
My Italian is actually pretty good, I live in Milan, but I use the translator to see what gets lost. Maybe next time I'll help out with a little editing
BTW, I've read a lot about "Foxy Knoxy" but haven't been able to find anything about AK on Myspace. Perhaps it's been removed. If anyone has a link to her earlier blog, or could paraphrase it here, I'd be interested to hear more about who this girl used to be.
Thx!
Time for the understatement: AK is F.U.C.K.E.D.
xin | 11.30.07 - 5:02 pm | #
OOPS....Who would have thought...Tapping my phone calls from prison??? LOL
Soozie re "Basically, she met a rich young Italian guy who's into wild, sadistic sex and has an obsession with knives"
I meant that as a hypothesis, following on from Minneapolis's account of a roommate (who had a tendency to fulfil her bf's fantasies). Until now we've assumed AK was the driving force, Minneapolis's illustration showed that there is an alternative...
Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
Thank you xin, I actually did use the Google translator before on the Italian article and just found it funny that someone posted the exact translation here.
My Italian is actually pretty good, I live in Milan, but I use the translator to see what gets lost. Maybe next time I'll help out with a little editing
BTW, I've read a lot about "Foxy Knoxy" but haven't been able to find anything about AK on Myspace. Perhaps it's been removed. If anyone has a link to her earlier blog, or could paraphrase it here, I'd be interested to hear more about who this girl used to be.
Thx!
belle | 11.30.07 - 5:04 pm | #
The help with editing or translating would be great, Belle...Steve has a mirror on the original blog of her My Space page.
continued
WHAT MAY BE HAPPENING:
One of the reasons for Amanda's reference to second mother is that, indeed, her mother has returned to Seattle where she is an (elementary level) teacher.
However, her father remains, staying just outside of Perugia. THAT today we saw references to her defense expert making explicit rebuttals to the physical evidence strongly suggests that her Macy's VP - MBA trained father has grasped the situation's true nature, and is working very closely with the lawyer's in pre-positioning for the trial. Amanda is not pleased, but the lawyer's said they are pleased, which means that IN THE REPORT SUBMITTED by the investigators to the 3 judge panel: There was NO NEW evidence submitted. I argue this because CNN reports having obtained a copy of the ILE submitted document and then went on to detail ONLY the three major points we know: knife, tub spout, bleach, shoe print, computer track & the absence of evidence, the clean-up. The CNN report should have highlighted any NEW evidence is any was presented. It did not so there was none.
This is also true for Rafe's father and his lawyer's re the 39 page rebuttal on the computer evidence they also submitted today. Obviously, they did not expect the judges to read that report while sitting at the bench. It was submitted to let the judges know how the evidence can be read otherwise.
With such material presentation only made AT the hearing, a U.S. judge would take the material under advisement and postpone a decision for a few days to a week. This is all positioning for the next request for "bail".
If there is more physical evidence still being processed, it doesn't seem likely there will be a bombshell in it, so that the defense lawyers may be assuming that the physical evidence presented So Far is ALL the Key DIRECT Evidence the ILE has. The rest will be circumstantial re-creation along the lines we've been doing especially at the original thread.
Both sides are of course awaiting Rudy's return, as the trial will be, as was noted by one of our local reporters, of all three at once. What will Rudy's lawyers get him to say? Now I know that deal-making in the Italian court's doesn't have the same institutionalized deal-making as now occur's in US courts, but Rudy's lawyers have all the physical evidence against him PLUS he's already run his mouth too much.
Given that ILE has no compunctions about secretly recording Amanda & her mother and using that in the prelim hearing, which is an act that might very well get the whole case against A tossed in an American court, nor about confiscating whatever Rafe was writing for his lawyers, ILE may indeed have a LOT less physical evidence than we suppose.
Next up, My "Pincecone" theory.
Cited from Telegraph --- Professor Carlo Torre, Knox's forensic expert, argued that Miss Kercher had been strangled, since a bone in her neck was broken. He said she died in "a very short time, in between four to five minutes". ---
As far as the length of time it took, this would seem to confirm RHG's account.
As far as the length of time it took, this would seem to confirm RHG's account.
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 5:15 pm | #
How so?? I thought his statment has always been that she was still alive when he fled.
xin, for my curiosity re background on current research on violent crime, does your Dr C. work directly with prisoners i.e. counseling or is she doing research work with said as subjects? Male only or both male & female? Were these matters the subject of her dissertation? If you don't know off hand, perhaps could ask her as intro for any report.
Hey Robert M.
Thanks for the pay grade raise but I am not an attorney...I work with attorneys in litigation which runs years and has 250 depos, millions of docs and use various litgation software and information technology for trial and mediation.
I agree with your above post...there is little new today except Rudy is in another country and it wouldn't do to release your only in custody suspects.
As it has been pointed out many times in the "big" thread that the newspapers are nearly utter rubbish and as Mom said "Don't believe everything you read in the papers!"
http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/2...s-in-
italy.html Bella.....Steve has the mirrored copy of Amanda's My space Here
gwhite,
Thank you for that bit of information. I did not know that she would be leaving the following week. I find that intriguing for the following reasons. I always assumed that she left her friends early because of the impending visit to England.
This changes things for me completely. If she were not leaving the following day, why did she return back to the cottage at 9:00 pm or thereabouts? Her friends never said she was tired, nor did she indicate that she had to go back for any particular weekend.
If RGH's statement is to be believed, that a party at the cottage was agreed upon during the Halloween party, and that he arrived at 8:38 pm as well as indicating that Meredith arrived 8 minutes later(The CCTV actually caught AK), maybe he was mistaken and that Meredith arrived, okay, say about 10 minutes later. The food supposedly digested by Meredeth indicates that she ate food at the cottage before she died.
This changes things for me now completely. Could you please confirm for me that her Mother's birthday was for the 9th of November and not the 3rd or 4th of November. I would like very much to know this.
Rhonda:
Wow! Thank you so much for making it easy. I have to admit though, now I feel a little dirty... the voyeurism just got personal, creepy...
I will definitely help out with any translating in the future. Mostly what gets lost are the articles which change depending whether the noun is M/F. So a phrase concerning AK ie, "il suo sorriso" could come out "the his smile" or "his smile" even though AK is F, because 'sorriso' is M... easy, right? lol
gwhite
I meant to say 'any particular reason'
a2 quoted a telegraph article :
"...A police source said last night: "From the bugged recording it is possible to understand that she [Knox] was in the house. She denies everything, but we did submit this evidence today..."
******
That is pretty cautious wording: "...it is possible to understand ...". It would also be "possible to not understand", in other words, they have ambiguous phrasing recorded from her, would be my first guess.
See also another info source linked today, I think in both UK (Times?) and Italian press, where AK was quoted as saying something like "that night I was there" and her attorney then argued that AK's meaning was that she was at RS's house.
Who knows what ILE actually HAS, evidence-wise. It wouldn't be smart for them to completely tip their hand at this point, if not legally compelled to do so yet. Best to just go with enough to keep the suspects locked up, if they can do that.
But I sure hope that some more definitive evidence emerges down the line ... from somewhere.
may i respond in email?
send to ca94306@gmail.com
i'm concerned about confidentiality and will come up with an introduction, but for now, you may email me if you wish, with an addy.
{above for Robert M.}
Drat again re that bold mark. Sorry!
AndyT The problem with strangulation exclusively or primarily, is that so far NO ONE has disputed the ILE statements about the amount of blood all over the floor. Even if the stab wound is deep enough to pump blood out (not gush which is what hitting the artery would do), once Meredith's heart stopped beating due to the strangulation, & so no pressure on the veins to move the blood, and the body laid on the floor, blood is pulled toward the floor where it is by gravity. Its called pooling. So if dead within 5 minutes due to strangulation, how did all the blood get around?
A possible answer is that: after the deep wound was made by stabbing (Meredith was STABBED in the neck, her throat was not cut despite what every UK paper now repeats without thinking), she was obviously agitated and moving around. Finally, one of them decided to stop that by strangling her, breaking the hyoid bone in the process. Which makes the murder all that more personal and horrendous. How the prosecution interprets all this, rather than ILE in the prelims, is all important for how the defenses respond.
Which leads me to the Pinecone Theory.
bcpl,
I do remember sometime back, an article which reported that Meredith's friend Sophie, said that when Meredith left after the movie, she was tired from being out late the night before and was going home to go to bed early...I can try to locate, but not till later as I am about to sign off for a bit.
Rhondda,
I think RHG's statement was that after the victim uttered AF, she began to fade away, he tried unsuccessfully to stop the bloodflow, and then fled.
bpcl wrote:
This changes things for me now completely. Could you please confirm for me that her Mother's birthday was for the 9th of November and not the 3rd or 4th of November. I would like very much to know this.
****
to clear this up, i posted 2 info sources w links for this on the old thread about 5 days ago:
- Meredith's family's press statement, issued 5? Nov,
- Meredith's own written words,
both confirming that her travel plans to the UK were 9 Nov - 14 Nov (and then again travellling to UK for holidays 15 Dec).
I already did the search for this once for the other post - but, you could look for that post from 4-5 days ago over at the old thread, or google on "meredith kercher suitcase laden chocolates" (memorable phrase from the family press statement). that should bring up the confirming info for you.
RobertM, I was thinking the same thing, that the strangulation was an "act of mercy"
Also I just read that the hyoid bone can also be broken when someone is smothered (which would seem to fit even better).
a2,
I would really like to know that. I would also like to know if she intended to leave the following day for England.
RGH's statement that a party had been planned at the cottage, that he arrived at 8:38 pm and Meredith sometime after, and her digestion of food different than what she ate with her friends, leads me to believe that she could have been aware of this party.
This changes things for me completely. That being said, the Police have always stated that this party was fueled by sex and drugs amongst the participants. AK's statement that she was 'sorry for the situation' implies to me that maybe she planned it all. She had a key and RGH arrived earlier than Meredith. He could have only been let inside by AK.
I really would like to know what day Meredith planned to return to England.
Ah Bella Belle.
We all want the accurate info, and most of us appreciate the nuance.
Grazie.
Sorry, seems like I misinterpreted the info I saw on smothering and the hyoid bone fracture.
In the initial reporting - it was stated that Meredith had been planning to fly home the *following* weekend (which was November 9th). After that, it got confused with the press saying she'd been due home the next day. I believe the November 9th date is correct.
That information about the "mushroom" knife not being the murder weapon came from Knox's "forensic expert," not the police, so I would expect such a pronouncement from her defense team
LOL no, I was 'speculating' about the knife. pure speculation.
sorry if it confused.
like xn already stated, probably the mushroom was in her esophagus because she regurgitaed.
and like i said, i still believe it was premeditated.
and also believe knox instigated the sexual attack on MK
jw,
If what you said is true, then only one of two things can be true.
Either Meredith was tired and wanted to go home early for rest or,
Meredith was aware of the party and participated.
The case for Meredeth not being aware of the party is that she digested so little food upon her arrival.(some people here have stated that she was being polite)
Secondly, RGH's statement that the two of them participated in consensual sex is a lie I believe, based on the following reason. I just do not believe that Meredith would engage in consensual sex while she was on her period.
And this does not take away the premeditation aspect from the case because of the transported knife and the fact that AK would be privy to the fact that Meredith would be returning to the cottage.
I am not sure we would ever know if Meredeth knew about the party because RGH cannot be trusted. His statement would have to be corroborated by the 'Spanish Friends' that RGH said were involved in arranging the party.
Loz, I've noticed that Brits and Americans speculate and hypothesize in different ways. Brit sarcasm and irony sometimes get lost.
The "Spanish friends" were the ones MK spent the Halloween party with (night b4 murder) - RHG also being there apparently...
"Brit sarcasm and irony sometimes get lost"
Never a truer word was spoken! It often leads to confusion about the true meaning of the comments. It's like we're speaking a different language sometimes - but I still find it very interesting to read comments and thoughts from anyone from any country, and confusion can always be cleared up if necessary.
The fact that RGH arrived so promptly then, at 8:46 pm along with the female seen by CCTV at 8:46 pm, is sinister, given that Meredith arrived at 9:00 pm plus 10 minutes(She left her friends at 9:00 pm) It could imply that Meredeth was being set up all along.
I meant to say RGH arrived at 8:38 pm.
About AK's self-projected image since being arrested. I don't exclude that she is in denial or to some extent delusional as others have suggested. But it is also possible that everything is very calculated to project an image of herself that she thinks will be sympathetic. Her oft repeated line: "I want to tell the truth" or "I'm doing the best I can." are calculated to gain sympathy from others. Her tears in court today were perhaps the result of finally recognizing the true import of her "situation" but I wonder if it wasn't part of her effort to elicit sympathy. The same could be said of her reported calm, smiles and love for Perugia. If she shows any sign of nerves the public will tend to interpret it as a sign of guilt. Even the braids in her hair might have been prompted to appeal to traditional Italian tastes as if to say she's a simple country girl just like the viewing public. Why is she doing all this? it's an approach that has worked well before and afterall look what public sympathy did for Patrick. The difference, of course, is that Partick seems to have deserved it.
Talking about Patrick...
And with reference to bcpl's comment about the sinister time period..
I've wondered for some time now whether AK found out via PL that MK was going home at around 9. (??)
RS's knife expert says the knife is too large for the wound. That struck a familiar chord from the past. Remember: "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit"?
Robert M. - possible postponing of the decision/judgement.
thanks, wondered if todays new was being given a slick by UK press. like the whoe body / second post mortem business - that was covered up. bt bbc news 24 slipped up days after, after it was reported back in the UK, that the body is t be flown to the UK/is being flown to.
AndyT,
That is precisely the path I am trying to get at. Thank you.
This presentation is a tip of the hat to Pinecone who has resolutely refused to accept Amanda's guilt as prima facie. Ditto for Rafe. Its really really rough, though, and maybe its Rudy's best defense.
We assume that indeed Mr X & Ms X are really there, that is ILE finally confirms the "supposed" organic substnaces found both inside and outside as 1) from the same pople, and these people are 2) a male and a female. Also, that the organic substances were found IN Meredtih's room and not say in the downstair flats. (ILE seems to refer to the whole house as the murder scene, rather than just Meredith's room. That's another point of confusion among us & them too, I suspect.)
At this point, then we can safely say that at around 10 pm there were at least 4 people in the house: Meredith, Rudy [because his baseline statement is that yes he was in the house and Meredith was alive & not stabbed: that hasn't changed] and Mr. CS (cottonswab) and Ms CS (cotton swab). For this scenario I place Amanda, stoned stoned stoned, in the kitchen eating mushrooms and other foods. For this scenario, I place Rafe at his house, also stoning out.
Rudy does indeed violate Meredith but its at the behest of Mr. CS and Ms CS. Rudy does indeed go to the bathroom, but has no ipod as he indeed hear's something amiss which is why he doesn't flush the toilet but does wipe. He passes Amanda putting her hands over her ears, and peeks into Meredith's room. What does he see but Mr. CS strangling Meredith and Ms CS holding the knife that Amanda brought over from Rafe's place. She's holding it with either a gloved hand or wrapped around the handle. Mr CS makes a remark similar to what Rudy now reports [heck, when PL was the target, I made a similar remark about American white girl's tendencies] -- and Rudy splits immediately. Its now 10:30.
continued
Puzzler,
In Law, they say, "if the facts do not support your case, argue the law." RS is involved in this 'situation' as AK has stated, and his lawyers are doing everything they can to use the Law to dispute the facts.
RobertM,
The Police have stated that they are investigating RGH's claim that a small white car was in front of the house on the night of the murder of Meredith. And indeed, a small white car was captured by CCTV leaving the scene that morning. Perhaps this is the car owned by Mr. X and Ms. X.
bpcl, i went back to the older thread, and found the link to the Sun article that quotes Meredith's facebook. however, the link no longer works:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle424024.ece
however, the google search i suggested should bring up the Kercher family's press statement.
in the early press reports, it was reported that Meredith told her friends with whom she dined, that she was tired and wanted to have an early night. she had been out very late the night before at the halloween party.
one of those friends (sophie?) also said that she had good reason to believe that if Meredith was planning on meeting someone, she had good reason to believe that Meredith would have confided that in her. actually, the friend said if Meredith was planning on "sleeping with" or "having sex with", someone ... one of those wordings.
it does not take away from the premeditated aspect, no. it could even strengthen it, as it might be a few days before Meredith was missed. if she had been expected home in the UK next day, she would have been certainly missed.
as for the period - that assumption derives from the "tampon" issue, doesn't it?
"the tampon issue" hasn't satisfactorily been cleared up for me. in the italian press, all the reports that i (tried to) read seemed to say that rudy's dna was found on vaginal swabs taken of Meredith (as in post-mortem, forensics). then, 2 UK papers reported that rudy's dna was found on Meredith's "tampon".
apologies for repetition, but seems that the old thread is not being read by new people.
i wondered whether that was a translation mistake and asked our Italian-speaking friends here for clarification. one answered (was it you, damian?) and said that he thought that the correct info was a post-mortem swab.
the italian word used in the newspapers is quite close to the english word "tampon" (the personal hygiene use of the word derives from the older medical usage, for absorbent material used for such things as stemming bleeding - see how that could be a forensic swab?)
personally, i think that any mention of tampons and menses should wait until we have some better indication that these things are fact rather than misunderstanding. there is enough trauma for Meredith in the murder as is. JMO.
no easy facts in this, even the ages of some of the suspects are constantly changing, and that should be easy enough to verify (RS - 23? 24?)
back to the premeditation, though ... i wouldn't put anything past these characters. whether there was some scheme to intimidate, harm, kill meredith, or else, spur of the moment craziness.
erm sorry to say this again. basically i made a recording. at first I thought it said "I don't know who did it" but i listened back today and now i think it says 'i told who did it'. I tried to put it on youtbe yesterday, but it has not accepted. It seems to be a female S.London accent. I am mancunian, in the uk, & never been to italy so.... i know someone on the other thread said something about shadows 'posing' as people. and after all this i am going to 'close the door' & get reconfirmed. anyway,
my email is: love_life_2_death@hotmail.co.uk if anyone who can get it on the net, and listen to the originals & enhanced recording. I'd like others opnions if you just want it mailing and to listen. I KNOW it's crazy, unlikely and all that.
But that RHG guy did say MK had said something he may not be telling the truth of the initials she gave. who knows. probably just radio signals or sounds reverbing in space & time *shrugs*
soozie, one constant over the weeks has been that we hear very little about RS.
any guesses re his sexual predilections were from his reported extensive collection of Manga(sp?) comics. the police were reported to have confiscated this collection from his flat. the themes were reportedly murder, murder with knives and swords, murder by knife or sword of erotically dressed women. ergo, eroticised violence. that is all that i've read, besides his own statement about "only one other girl has entered my life".
forgot to add on last comment re RS's 'comics' - who knows whether this collection is any indication of RS's sexual nature. raises questions but no answers.
Loz, I love you 2 bits, but are you telling us you're some kind of medium??? Andy
The Police have stated that they are investigating RGH's claim that a small white car was in front of the house on the night of the murder of Meredith. And indeed, a small white car was captured by CCTV leaving the scene that morning. Perhaps this is the car owned by Mr. X and Ms. X.
bpcl
------
OR, Rudy is making news coverage cllues fit his story...
Oh, look at this, a prior arrest!!!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1879
'tampone' means swab. Rudy's dna was found on the swab.
It seems AK has a new story. A fifty page diary was confiscated; entitled 'My Prison', (and written in prison) a collection of memories, poetry and aspirations.
The Repubblica say she wrote..
'RS could have killed Meredith, although I don't know why.'
On Meredith..
'She was a wise (clever) girl, but she gave lots of advice to people about who they should see (hang out with)
She also says that Meredith was smart and that if she had been there that night, Meredith wouldn't have died.
She also wrote that she has never owned a knife.
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...nti-
amanda.html
I passionately dislike Daily Mail but if that new article ("The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy") is based on facts, it would explain a lot of things and make the idea of her involvement much more credible.
We need someone to go down to the Municipal Court in Seattle and check on Crime No: 071830624. Please!
The article has a couple of facts wrong- it puts her birthday in September- her MySpace had her listed as a Cancer. It also calls her school the University of Seattle at the end.
Interesting that the current mayor's son went to the same prep school she did. He has been charged with being involved in a gambling racket at the Indian Casino he was working at.
Other than that, very interesting... She definitely sounds manic, if nothing else. Sleeping with strangers on the train is beyond low self esteem!
'...only once, when she was in a town in northern europe and she decided to carry a kitchen knife in her handbag.' This is translated from the Repubblica article above. (I'm not making it up)
AndyT, the case is not currently available on the website. ( http://www.seattle.gov/courts/ )
I saw that too Damian, I wondered whether she meant Leeds or Coulsdon...(for the N. European town..)
Buona notte everybody
(will be dreaming about going on trains)
RGIL: wrote passionately dislike Daily Mail but if that new article ("The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy") is based on facts, it would explain a lot of things and make the idea of her involvement much more credible.
Early it was reported that she got a "noise" ticket for a wild party. The rest sounds made up or at the least makes me jealous I never got invited to parties like that. Washington University is in St. Louis, Knox went to the University of Washington.
Is she involved? I feel pretty sure she was in the house during the murder. Did she take part in any way?
That is the part where something like evidence would be helpful.
Was she a loose canon that you would go around the block to avoid? I would.
Defendant Summary
Court Defendant Number: 1336461
Name Of Record: AMANDA MI KNOX
Aliases: AMANDA MI KNOX
Date Of Birth: 07/09/1987
Language:
Employer:
Case Citations Hearings Defendant Obligations Warrants
Case Number Type Status Filing Date Police Incident Number
202557635 IN CLSE 07/02/2007
Pinecone continued.
What Mr CS & Ms CS have done is turn a little druggie party semi-organized by Amanda who may have brought the mushrooms & the knife from Rafe's place, into their own type of Party Scene, and on the semi-spur of the moment, moved it onto murder, an experience they had been working themselves up to. Despite being his invitees, they are confident he does not know who they are, being stoned stoned stoned, and they only gave him nick [or false] names. They've played games like this many a time before, though perhaps not up through murder. Being NOT stoned, they know just what they've touched and where they have been and not been. They put Meredith's body into the freestanding closet [IF this leak is true but again there must be SOME evidence for this, like blood in the closet, one would think], pick up what they can see (missing the swabs) and, while they are going out to the door, passing the kitchen, Ms CS hands a stunned, already disassociating Amanda the knife with a command/suggestion like "well, you DID a nice scene, dear" and they leave. Yes, the white car is their's.
What then follows flows from Amanda's dissociating. But what she does do is put a call into Rudy to see where he is, and goes and gets Rafe, who, still somewhat stoned, leaves his Mac or PC on but does nothing to cover his tracks. Why should he? He actually comes to THINK that Amanda did it herself with the black guy, whom she never names to Rafe. (She may already be calling him PL.) They move the body out of the closet on to the floor & go on to do the staging of burglary, cleaning etc. Amanda, dissasociating somewhat still, thinks that yes she witnessed part of the murder. Its really all unnecessary. Cleaning her room thoroughly is precisely the wrong thing to do, as is moving the body. And everything else. Bad staging, and overdoing the attempt at cover-up.
to be continued
http://
publicinformation.seattle...eOfBirth.action
personally, i think that any mention of tampons and menses should wait until we have some better indication that these things are fact rather than misunderstanding. there is enough trauma for Meredith in the murder as is. JMO.
-------
agreed, one thing that points to mk being in menses is that in her original statement, when asked by police why when she went into the bathroom at home she didn't notice the blood, AK responded that she assumed one of her HMs was on her priod, and it came from that.
of course, it has since been proved accrding to the press that the blood in the bidet was amandas.
so - a big lie there.
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 6:31 pm
*blushes* I don't EVEN believe in mediums MYSELF.
but it doesn't stop my curiousity, and 'testing' things just to 'see'.
Case Number Charge Sequence Number Amended Violation Description Plea Finding Disposition Code Dismissal Reason Close Date
202557635 1 No RESIDENTIAL DISTURBANCE C PD 07/07/2007
Now i really am out of here... g'night
about merediths 'imminent return': it would be MOST compeling evidence of premeditation if Meredith was leaving for UK the next day. however it seems she was not.
but, it STILL could be such a crime.
you see, what i find weird is if there was a party, why wasn't it thrown for all the HMs before nov1st, they were returning home for holidays.
and (if true) knox was due to leave for home soon also -studying for 3 months only--
what COULD point to premed is: all other HMs were not going to be in that house over the coming days or that night, except amanda & meredith, amanda & RS(who would not have had reason or be able to go to the house once AK had gon back to US) didn't have much else opportunity. what if AK realised it was possibly the ONLY opportunity she would have to RUIN MKs year in Italy through stealing her things & instigating a rape & acting wild & disruptively over her (aks) last few days/weeks in Italy??
something like that...
Pinecone Theory continued
Clearly because of drugs neither Amanda nor Rafe are capable of taking the KISS approach: keep it simple stupid. Which would be for Rafe to call his sister RIGHT THEN with the cover story that Amanda came over to get him because she came home & found there was blood on Meredith's floor and no Meredith and so she freaked out and what should she do? And he went back to see what she was talking about because he was still pretty stoned too, and sure enough blood & no Meredith. What should we do? Oh and flush the toilet while they were at it, because under this scenario, Amanda has no idea that Rudy has really raped Meredith and left other samples of his DNA. But trying to out-think their semi-culpability, they just made themselves even more culpable.
IF there were indeed a Mr CS & Ms CS, and that is a quite definitely unconfirmed leak {swabs and that stilleto heel), this accounts for what they wre doing there, and why they haven't come forward or even called ILE directly at the time. They are the killers. Rudy is a rapist but not a killer. And Amanda and Rafe are just idiots who have shot themselves in their own foot appendages due to excessive pot use. Rafe is in for a coverup of a crime his girlfriend did not commit. And Amanda is not a psychopath but a very immature, shallow (she has a facility with languages and an ability to concentrate to learn things, but more & more she seems a "Cliff Notes" student) woman with clear Mom & Dad issues who's unaware-angst about them was addressed by "self-medicating" while in Italy with wild sex and wilder drug use, ramping up behavior she'd already started to exhibit at home.
seattleite wrote: "Is she involved? I feel pretty sure she was in the house during the murder. Did she take part in any way?"
I think that is she was in the house, she certainly would have participated. Given all that I have read about how she liked to be center of attention and involved in everything it would be hard to imagine her distancing herself from the action that took place there. You are right though, evidence would be very helpful indeed.
What I also find fascinating is that she has power over people. Everywhere she went, men fell for her as there are plenty of sources to verify this. Patrick said so about her time when she was working at the bar. She admitted to sleeping with a guy on the train. She slept with RS and many other Italian men - all the while still keeping her American boyfriend back home sweet. What makes is even more interesting is how everyone in prison really taken in by her. The prisoners seem to love her, the nuns and priest seem taken in as well. Then the deputy, Osvaldo Napoli also describes her in a rather endearing manner.
There is no doubt in my mind Amanda wields a powerful psychological influence over people. She knows how to get things her way.
'She was a wise (clever) girl, BUT... she gave lots of advice to people about who they should see (hang out with)
--is this one of the many things that could have got up amandas nose re: mredith. is she trying to say meredith advised me against RS, or that meredith thought it bad that she had an american & italian boyfriend. is it about meredith claiming knox brought 'too many men' and 'strange men' at that to the house. is it to do with meredith boyfriend.
or is it to do with the possibility that meredith didn't like knox or introduce knox to her friends?
maybe knox even felt patronied by meredith who may have said she's worried for KNOXs safety given the people she hangs out with?
Pinecone theory wrapped
But Amanda IS the one who got the ball rolling on this party (so responsible in that sense for Meredith's death, so in need of "forgiveness") and because of the drugs is NOT really sure if she participated or not. Her state of denial is real (now its "I was not there"), but, by this theory, the denial is about something she never actually did but somewhat thinks she may have. And we can't tell from her musings aloud whether its a put-on or its really what she's confused about. And we never will. Its this true confusion on her part that makes her really susceptible to police interrogation techniques after her arrest. And those statements we hang so much on, as do the ILE or they'd never have arrested PL, would in the US, in all likelihood (75%+), never make it into the actual trial evidence due to the manner in which ILE got them (11:30 pm and then 5:22 the following morning & likely they made sure she never slept in between.)
This is the best I can do to represent the consequences of accepting Pinecone's steadfastness about Amanda not being directly involved. And GIVEN the presence of Mr CS & Ms CS -- IF THEY REALLY EXIST -- this is how Pinecone's belief could have worked out. The couple in the white car are the thrill killers. Amanda's true guilt is in creating the opportunity and letting it happen -- and good girls from Seattle just don't let those things happen, now, do they?
What we need of course is true evidence to work with, not selectively leaked information that is incorrectly presented quite often and mistranslated to boot.
Robert M:
Are these the "Spanish" in your Mr & Mrs. CS? I had read early on that the police were looking at some 50 photos of the Halloween party Meredith attended the night before and was also wondering with there was a pre or post party at Meredith's house...I wondered that because of the line from this story which may be bunk:
"I saw him on October 31, the day before the tragedy, walking past my bar," said one bar owner, who asked not to be named. "I also think he was at a Halloween party at Meredith's house," he added."
"I know him. He was in my bar from time to time," he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith420.xml
AndyT & the Disturbance -- that's the formal record of what we already know and discussed at the top of the original thread. "C" means it was a fine ("d" would likely have meant dismiised no fine) and "PD" means it was paid, whether on the spot or at court appearence, or even before a court appearance. One of the party participants posted at one of the first Seattle P-I threads off the main story of her arrest that she actually thought it was mature of Amanda to speak with the complainer and then take the hit for the group, because she, the poster, wasn't planning on doing any such thing! This doesn't mean it wasn't a really raucous party; just that Amanda was cited and took responsbility for it and paid the fine (well, Mom or Dad did of course).
Also, that ILE is secretly taping her and now confiscating her material for her lawyers, tends to show that ILE itself is concerned that it really doesn't have anything beyond what we now know. They are fishing and in US parlance that fishing poisons the pool of evidence they have and so stuff would get tossed by the judge. (Side note: to us Anglos, those ILE actions are patent violations of what we USAers call our 5th Amendment rights not to self-incriminate & clearly there is no "privileged right of communicating with her lawyers" in Italy as there is in the US & in the UK.)
So what will Rudy finally 'fess up to and can or will ILE confirm & find the M/M CS & their White Car?
Wait a minute Robert M....even in the USA jail house conversations are often taped, phone calls too. Conversations with your attorney are the only ones protected while you are in jail. Jailhouse traps are often set and hold up in court.
Seattlite, this is the problem: these sociopaths PASS, you don't know.
OK...birth records...I see our sleuthing will get hardcore.
robert m - nice theory, but a few holes.
why haven't AK & RS just told the police who the real perps are?
are they really confident they won't be 'wrongly'-in your scenario found guilty of murder. and they are simply lying because they are scared to say they should have called an ambulance & they covered up??
--amanda knew that the blood in the bidet the police were referring to was hers, but she said she thought that NO it was she thought that night, another remale HMs blood from menses---
that's a PRETTY BIG LIE, especially considering how oh so tired she was, cnfused cos the police were shouting at her, and hit her on the head.
the bidet blood lie also shows that she is not in denial, IF guilty of the murder who knows, that she is NOT disassociating.
unless of course, she was disassociated at the time she saw the blood in the bathroom & was lying to herself??
Xin: Seattlite, this is the problem: these sociopaths PASS, you don't know.
And this is in response to what?
seattleite
SUPPOSING that DNA will really establish Mr & Ms CS's reality, then, yes, they could be the "Spanish" people Rudy has already referred to, or they could be people he encountered just that night, said come along, and they brought with them their own intentions and predilictions. And this is indeed a problem for the ILE, because by advancing this idea through a leak before final confirmation, they've given the defense MORE than a hatrack upon which to rest their fedoras. And whatever the final DNA results they report, defense will ask for a retest by their own experts. If I can see this, then Amanda's MBA-trained father can see this.
For an American jury, the actual existence of these people creates "reasonable doubt" from the gitgo that defense lawyers can use/exploit. [And said US defense lawyers would also make sure that Amanda never said or wrote anything again outside of their presence and would NEVER let her testify on her behalf. They would let their own psychologists testify for here.]
Thanks Robert M: Your clarity is appreciated.
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 6:36 pm | #
i read many sources: italian and english: all papers have some different views. (i did also some courses italian) i have read it a few minutes ago - i'am sure she must be evil, but i like her.
"Within hours of arriving in Rome, she e-mailed a former Washington University student, writing excitedly of having sex with a stranger on a train."
"Knox also cultivated cannabis plants around the apartment and would smoke her first joint before she got dressed in the morning. There were rumours that Meredith had accused Knox of taking money from a drawer."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1879
i have met many young people from the states in italy but i have never met a girl like foxyknoxy.
"However, it is known that he (RHG) regularly played basketball on the court around the corner from Miss Kercher's house."
from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith420.xml
hadn't either AK or police accused PL of meeting AK at the basketball court earlier that evening?
Isnt'it weird that RHG says she was near the house at 8:38 waiting for Meredith, at the exact time we know that PL' cell phone was detected by the cell of the area?
Rhonda yes you are quite correct. But the incident was a secret taping of Amanda's conversation with her Mother. No US DA can get away with that unless they have a warrant and to get a warrant they'd have to convince a judge that ANOTHER crime was being conspired. And any writing said to be FOR HER LAWYERS would be considered privileged in the US; her lawyers would even have given her special large envelopes so stamped. Just those two actions alone would be grounds for a request to dismiss any evidence or statements associated with those actions.
However, a cellmate reporting what Amanda may have said in a conversation is another matter; either the cell mate would testify directly or the DA would get a warrant to wire her or even to intercept a public payphone call out. [The latter such action has led to one murder for hire conviction that I know of.] There are behavioral lines here that exist for both US & ILE but US lines clearly are more demarked and hedged about. ILE has the more freewheeling hand here. On the whole, I think I prefer Anglo-American jurisprudence. Now if we can just put a stake through the heart of the vampiric-like John Yoo interpretation of the US Consitution and get full habeas corpus restored, why we might yet have some fine war crimes trials of our own.
fran - that & the basketball thing. could it have been disimformation/misinfo put out by the ILE to lull RHG into a false sense of security as he would think they are mistaking him for PL. RHG was in germany on the run at he time.
rob m: unless they had reason to believe AK might ask her mum/confess to her something. maybe an escape plan?
but fran you are right. could it have been a 'party'?
Myself I've started to think that 8:38 regarding PL could be a false leak, because they have never talked about that anymore
for Random Guy, I can only address the first part of the DM article, up to this line: "But police say a bloody fingerprint found at the murder scene belonged to Knox."
Because THAT statement of fact is one of those early leaks that ILE is no longer using in its reports to the judges. IF they indeed had such a fingerprint in blood, THEN its game, set, match & throw away the key. As they don't use it in either of the reports to the judges, then they have no such evidence. And the DM writers & copy-rewriters left that interp in for the dramatic impact. As they did with other phrases AFTER that line.
What ILE likely have is evidence of finger marks, in both blood and as bruisings, on Meredith's face neck & shoulders, but those in blood could not produce usuable prints at all. But they've got Rudy's and they've forthrightly said that, plus they have the DNA. But for Amanda it seems they truly have NOTHING save what they think is on the knife {she cut herself slicing mushrooms?) and for Rafe its the shoe print which may or may not match the peculiarities of his sole. But addressing those issues is not the point of the DM piece. What they've sensationalized about Amanda at U of W is accurate however.
Random Guy - "There is no doubt in my mind Amanda wields a powerful psychological influence over people. She knows how to get things her way"
Except today. And I'm 100% convinced she was fully expecting her 'sobbing' and protestation of innocence (along with her half-hearted apology about blaming Parick) to convince the judge to let her go and be housed with the singing nuns.
I bet she is seething inside that her act didn't work. I mean, let's face it - perfectly normal respectable people are totally taken in by her. I find that quite frightening. But the judge isn't having any of it thank goodness - so the one person she needs to be taken in by her - is not playing the game. Good!
Myself I've started to think that 8:38 regarding PL could be a false leak, because they have never talked about that anymore
fran | 11.30.07 - 8:36 pm | #
yep, I guess it will all come out in the trial.
Fran...your probably right...I tend to think,it was Rudy(confused) who picked up on the time(8:3,on his two week flight........Then used it to spin his tale
Robert M. | 11.30.07 - 8:23 pm |
"Now if we can just put a stake through the heart of the vampiric-like John Yoo interpretation of the US Consitution and get full habeas corpus restored, why we might yet have some fine war crimes trials of our own."
Robert M - I'm with you. Here's the Chaucer Blogger's sarky comment on the recent - and outrageous - 'revolution' in English law"
http://www.zazzle.com/jurgen9/
pr...841696044088694
RobertM
These are the facts as I know it. A knife that contained the DNA of both Meredith and AK was found in the flat of RS. Meredith had never visited RS's flat. The girls in the cottage testified that they had never seen that knife before. A bloody shoeprint found in the cottage with an irregularity linked to RS's shoe. A CCTV caught a woman with light covered clothing entering the premises. AK has never denied that it was not her, and I assume the Police have given her the chance.
There is no way Meredith would have let RGH, and Mr. C and Ms. C into that cottage by herself. She had complained vigorously, and as we now see rightfully so, about strange people coming into there. They had to be let in by AK who was the only other person who had a key.
RS and AK were smoking dope all day together. I don't think for a moment that they left each other. RS now says he was at home alone, without AK, surfing the net, which is a lie. His lawyers will never be able to prove otherwise I can assure you. AK stated today that she was at RS's house. In effect, they are distancing themselves from the crime and each other.
I believe that AK initiated the 'party' at the cottage knowing full well that she was laying a trap for Meredith. Her 'rape stories' and the fact that PL stated there was so much 'fury' in her about how Meredeth was stealing her light, that she wanted to teach Meredith a lesson. She might not have told RS about her intentions. Rudy was invited to the party for the drugs and that might have been the enticement AK used to get RS to come. Additionally, and we are not sure of this yet, two other people could have been at the cottage. Either they were invitees or were part of the clean up.
It really does not matter anyway. The Police have linked AK to the cottage that night, or the day after. AK, RS and RGH are all involved with her murder at the very minimum. They let her die afterall, because they could not afford to let her live. And in time, this will all be proven; just watch the words of the Prosecutors today. They would not have said the words they chose to say today if they did not possess evidence to the contrary.
And this is not about mind games either. It is, as Luke as stated, about a sociopathic individual named AK who throughout her life, has sown the seeds for the destruction of many. For the first time in her life, she will pay the price for her behavior. Somewhere, perhaps in the heavens, there is an angel named Meredith who is saying, "My life for that Bi*ch*
Fran..sorry about the smiling face dude...not sure how I did it...all thumbs here
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but this paragraph makes no sense to me:
"A court in Koblenz is due to decide next week on Guede's extradition. But Germany wants an assurance that, if he were jailed for life, his case would be re-examined within 20 years"
I don't understand. Why do Germany care about sending a murder suspect back to Italy for questioning? Why do they care that his case should be re-examined? I could make more sense of it if he was German, but he's not. Can anyone explain this to me please?
Soosie,
They are asking this because Italian courts only review life sentence cases every 26 years.
thanks bpcl, I understand that part. What I didn't understand was why Germany would care if a murder suspect had his case reviewed after 20 or 26 years, especially if he's not German. I'd have thought all they cared about was getting him back to Italy for questioning. But it seems they're concerned his 'life' imprisonment might not be reviewed for a further 6 years on top of the 20. That's what I didn't understand.
Soozie, I think that German law demands life sentences be examined every 20 years, so German extradition laws presumably require this before sending someone abroad for trial.
Another example would be Britain (and other countries) trying to ensure extradited suspects will not face the death penalty abroad.
Soosie,
Perhaps they know that RGH will be convicted because of his involvement and will be given a life sentence. If it is proven that he is not the assassin, then maybe they would like to see his case reviewed in 20 years rather than 26. I don't know, however, this was my initial assumption.
Viv,
Your response is better. Thank you.
for Random Guy continued.
Why I say the first half is accurate or is most likely accurate is that, as a graduate student a few * ahem * years-years-years ago, I was the head resident of a coed dormitory, when that was first coming into vogue in the US. Did it for 4 years, which covered the period when the US Congress forced states to re-up the drinking age from 18 to 21. Which I've always opposed. So I watched things go from open to closed again & I had to be the enforcer. And as part of that, I also watched both the men and women exhibit the full range of responses to "freedom" especially when you could drink at legally at 18.
And among the men, the biggest drinkers were also the biggest tokers. A good number were so out of control in a quiet way that they just partied until they flunked out--and the draft was still on!!!! The women who partied certainly never partied with the men like Amanda did (though I heard about a few from other HRs in meetings), but every year I did have to have meetings with or make room rearrangements for women who couldn't get on--and a lot of that was about those having sex in their rooms. As a junior said to me about the freshman she had to room with due to over-subscription and too few off campus places to let, "Its like she thinks she's the first to discover sex." So, Amanda shedding that Catholic School Girl image for hard-core reality is all too too likely, especially given how certain collegiate cultural modes are so built into the experience post-The Sixities and Seventies. This is when you are supposed to kick the traces over, or shed your knickers or whatever, and you & your peers expect you to do so.
Also, spill-over parties such as described in the police report along Greek Row are REGULAR occurences at larger institutions. Many are contained WITHIN the actual fraternity house, but if there isn't one blowout per semester, & summer sessions, which is when that party occurred, are notorious for them, then you must be at a Baptist school. I can think of several at my own semi-bucolic college way back when and indeed those were in the summer. The only reason you don't read about them in a UK paper is that none of the participants get arrested for murder later in Italy. They just go on to be lawyers and businessmen and mothers & wives. See Steve H's first post way above, 3rd from the top. But clearly, Amanda took it all into 5th geer as it were, likely fueled by her own personality (hyper to begin with) and her Mother thing as the article inputs.
Thanks Viv, I understand now. Though considering the murder was carried out in the suspect's own country . . . still, the law is the law!
And an irksome bit to me about the DM article, the bit about the university PR guy not giving out the info on Amanda?
That's a snarky bit by the writer as the PR guy certainly told him that by FEDERAL law, he can't do so officially. The writer needed to do some more real gum-shore reporting work. Still, the PR guy's been told from high levels to really not say anything. Also, Amanda was careful to keep her study life separate from her party life for two years, so if the campus police have nothing, then the University itself officially has nothing. (Campus police blotters are public records still open.) But then such a pattern is TYPICAL of all US students. Study hard, play hard. And at those US colleges & universities (such as the U of Miami in FL), its Play harder than you study. The degree matters most, not the GPA if you aren't going on to a more select graduate program. Amanda is "unusual" in having been so male-oriented and we know that only because, unlike every other women in her matriculating class, she's gotten herself arrested for murder.
cheers Soozie and bcpl.
I was looking this issue up a couple of days ago. It looks like nation states - even within the EU - still have individually negotiated extradition treaties with each other. (I personally think this is a good thing, given the varying legal systems within the EU.)
Apparently some countries like Germany do not allow extradition of their nationals. But this is balanced by laws allowing Germans accused of crimes abroad to be tried for those crimes in back home.
Guede doesn't qualify as a national. But German law, I suppose, must insist that someone collared on German soil should get the benefit of German sentencing practices. Furthermore - and I'm guessing here - German courts probably wouldn't send Guede to a nation where the death penalty was on the statute books, or where he'd be at risk of an unfair trial.
I've learned that there are specific problems involving extradition to the US from (for example) Britain, due to the separation of US federal and state legislation. US states can't negotiate their own extradition treaties with sovereign nations. Which causes a right mess when there's a request to extradite someone from Britain to a US state with the death penalty on the books. I understand Britain has sought assurances about this in the case of Abu Hamza, but I'm not sure that any US state court would be bound to comply, whereas a federal court might have to. Hope that makes some sort of sense. I'm sure others here will be more expert on this!
BCPL and the other commenters on the Pinecone Theory. Well, yeah, there are holes in it, if such & such is true or this & that actually happened. I've already argued in a 4 parter at the original post just about what you write now. Heck, I "think" Amanda actually stabbed Meredith.
Her denial of this to herself is what I and coyotewaits agree on. And its this denial that keeps me from agreeing with Luke or Steve H that she's clearly psychopathic per se. It rests in a confusion which I don't think she's that great an actress to pull off. I think the confusion is real. A true psycho would be so much more clear eyed about this, like say Sgt Peterson. She opened the door for the Shadow self and now can't face the knowledge that she did so, because she knows she's not supposed to do that. The ILE interrogators were NOT as skillful as they thought; they should never have arrested just righthen, should have kept bringing her back, should have definitely used more Good Cop.
Pinecone actually herself wrote that she didn't think the cell-phone records of Amanda to Rudy both before and after the murder really existed. And certainly ILE hasn't referenced them in the report to the judges (apparently) though they have "insisted" they exist in at least two stories. IF so, neither Amanda nor Rudy has addressed those "facts". But Pinecone is correct to be very skeptical about what the "leaks" really are. Do they really exist? Likely only in the presentation for Rudy's being held or at trial will we know. If used, they exist. If not used, then they don't. They are too damning to be denied by Amanda or Rudy's lawyers, re prior relationship.
All I was doing was reflecting on the continued reportage about Mr & Ms CS, and what it could mean if real to all parties involved and I realized that it was the one approach into which Pinecone's cautions could all fit. And it doesn't make Amanda or Rafe not culpable -- but the culpability is for something other than murder.
Viv yep, as far as I know, that's it. States can pass special legislation saying no one who committed a murder between these dates will be put to death if found guilty. That's changing their own law to meet the demands of the foreign nation. Pennsylvania did that to get a man back from France who had fled just as his trial was to start. Had to wipe out the possibility of a death penalty for just that case in order to get France to sign him over. A notorious case that went on for at least two decades. Ira somebody. He killed the woman he'd been living with and kept her body mummifying in a trunk for over a year before police came back.
RobertM,
I have read your analysis. I myself no longer really accept the facts when they come from the Press or the Police. I wait to see if they keep repeating them, for example, like the bloody shoe print or the knife for example. If the Police keep repeating it(unless it is an outright lie, which we would not know) I tend to believe them. Another example, is the blood of AK on the faucet if you will. The keep holding onto that because that is the only way they can logically prove that AK was there. And I believe them in this case.
The other thing I believe to an extent are the actual statements of the persons involved. Now granted, some of it is falsehood, but in between, is the truth. And Luke has been exceptional in pointing out the inconsistencies in their statements and putting two and two together to point out to us, what is really being said by them.
That being said, I can see based on the statements from RS for example, I was on my computer(therefore I am not sleeping) I should be able to prove that, but HE cannot because of the 'cookie' concept that could help prove that he was surfing. I was surfing(therefore not sleeping) and my father gave me a call and I answered(He did not answer the phone, otherwise his father would be vociferously complaining that he spoke with him) Therefore by his own words, he was at the cottage because he cannot prove that he was anywhere else. A person, like an electron, can only be in one place at a time. He was either home or he was not. If he was not, where was he. He must have been at the cottage. If he was at the cottage then he participated in the murder.
It is a logical point to be sure, but that is what I use to determine the truth of the matter from statements.
AK says she was at RS's house, RS says he was there, but she wasn't. AK has no alibi either. If RS had been there, he could cover for AK and vice-versa. If AK can not cover for herself, then she must have been somewhere. Since she has no one to vouch for her, then she too must have been at the cottage and therefore participated in the murder.
Again it is logic, but like I stated before, no person can be at two different places at the same time.
And this is the logic that I use to try and determine the truth of the matter.
It has nothing to do with feeling, or emotion or transcendence or metaphysics or human psychology or any other possible description of life itself. Either these people were at another place in time and can prove it, or they were at the cottage. The human existence can provide a trace if you were at a one place, at a specific time. For RS, it is the computer, for AK it is RS. They both fail in my book.
Robert M: There have been some excellent theories and I think yours is one (actually bcpl had an excellent one on the old thread also and I agree Pinecone's is clear and much in line with "evidences" that are plausible.)
Seems the crux: is Amanda capable of crossing the line (under the influence or not) or being over the line in terms of harming another human with her own Amazonian mountain climbing hands(or a knife).
Some seemed convinced she is a sociopath/psychopath or a demon like Lillith? That DM piece pushed all the scary human buttons, didn't it. Great tabloid writing.
Personally don't know much about aberant psychology but the woman I have seen in life who had these Amanda-ish traits usually did something to themselves (cutters, druggies etc.) rather than attack someone else.
Is it possible she is sociopathic, psychopathic: maybe she is. Don't know and am eager to hear a real med professional's opinion.
But what is known? There is evidence which has not been examined in the light of day (or even in any formal discovery process). Hell, they haven't even been charged. And some theories that seem to fit known facts and some possible scenarios.
Giving that, it "remains to be seen what the level of participation was" is not a bad position for a layman outsider looking in.
bpcl:
The report of the police computer people and the RS experts is something I wonder about. Would the RS camp be under a penalty of law if they release their info? I mean under penalty like a sanction? Or are you saying they just don't have the goods and that is why they haven't leaked it.
Robert M - thanks for that example. I thought there must be ways around such an impasse, but can believe that they would take flippin' ages.
Turns out I was wrong about Abu Hamza - the charges he faces in the US do not carry the death penalty. Other reasons were advanced by his lawyers against his extradition, but it looks like he's going: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/37.../uk/
3753341.stm
One of the biggest extradition rows of recent times involved a British-Jordanian extradition agreement involving "assurances" of no torture:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ast/
4155806.stm
But news the following year (March 2006) that our Government was apparently complicit in extraordinary rendition rather overshadowed such legal arguments.
Seattlite,
What I am saying is the Police have categorically denied that RS was surfing on his computer and they can prove it using the cookie concept.
HTTP cookies, sometimes known as web cookies or just cookies, are parcels of text sent by a server to a web browser and then sent back unchanged by the browser each time it accesses that server. HTTP cookies are used for authenticating, tracking, and maintaining specific information about users, such as site preferences or the contents of their electronic shopping carts.
When you access the internet, cookies keep track of where you go all the time. The server(s) you go through keep track of this too. RS could say he had a way to turn cookie tracking off, but that would not stop the ISP's server from tracking his surfing.
RS and his lawyers are caught here because they cannot show that RS was surfing as he stated. The Police know because they have most likely looked on his computer to checked on whether the cookies were there on his computer and most likely checked the server(s) of his ISP provider. They have stated that his computer was on, however.
Therefore, my presumption still stands, either he was on the computer or not. If he was not, then he was at the cottage, because he does not have one small shred of evidence to prove that he was elsewhere. For better or worse, he gave up very early on his alibi that he was with AK. Right there, his ship was sunk so to speak.
bpcl:
Re: RS Assuming the police did a reasonable forensic job. I know how easy all this would be if they put their reports side by side.
I have this little nagging suspicion about the competence of reports prepared by government "experts" from experience.
bpcl:
In US, "Daubert Rule" regarding threshold for proper "scientific" evidence. I have no idea if such a thing exists in Italian jurisprudence.
Seattlite,
By default, Police in most places are not the best suited because, well lets face it, societies cannot afford to pay the salaries necessary to get the best people.
I am sure that the lawyers involved will do their level best to destroy the facts as presented by the authorities. In law as you know, when the facts do not support your case, use the law to argue the facts
In the end, when all is said in done, justice will be applied to all those involved in one way or another. All of us wish that justice will be swiftly applied, but it is always slow; and it should be, when the state is asking that a person be incarcerated or even given the death penalty.
None of us want to give the State that much freedom. However, if you read the statement by Meredith's Mother the other day, you can understand why I/you would do whatever I/you could to determine the truth and bring the perpetrators to justice.
In my heart, I chose not to discover why AK/RS/RGH/others did the act they did, but rather how they did it and to expose them for it. I do it for Meredith and her family, for those who loved her and her boyfriend who will never know, as he stated, what a life of love could have been with her.
Amen to that.
All I was doing was reflecting on the continued reportage about Mr & Ms CS, and what it could mean if real to all parties involved and I realized that it was the one approach into which Pinecone's cautions could all fit. And it doesn't make Amanda or Rafe not culpable -- but the culpability is for something other than murder.
Robert M. | 11.30.07 - 9:37 pm
You did a fine job, Robert M. I enjoyed reading your enhancements to my theory. Forensic evidence involving Mr. and Ms. CS must be eagerly anticipated by defense attorneys.
Seattlite,
I do not know as well. With the growth of lawyers using 'Experts' on both sides, each countering the other, it is difficult for juries to make proper assumptions. Thank goodness DNA has been allowed in the courtroom and has seen successes on both sides in the US. I do not know Italian law and many posters here have attempted to describe how it works here. I guess that like you, I will be learning about the 'law' there in the near future.
There seems to be multiple debates going on in this thread: particularity as to:
1) What exactly happened, like a movie of the actual crime
2) Why did it happen, given we know who the antagonists really are, and possibly why they did it
3) What does all the evidence that has been leaked really mean; lets debate it over and over; all of it, given we only have it from media leaked sources
4) What do the investigators really know and what will the prosecution present upon final trial
Lost amongst all this debate back and forth is exactly why (2 above) it happened, which is crucially important to any prosecutor to present a case to any jury and/or judge. Amongst this is premeditation and intentionally or not; that may exist. All forensic evidence is very crucial, including DNA evidence, but it is worthless in front of a jury without presenting intentionally and premeditation as to the act.
So offering my theory that science and logical thinking requires a most simple solution to complex questions about events; I ask you all to think about the following proposition:
If in fact the events were not premeditated, whether in absolute conspiracy amongst all suspects or not, why did the so called “party engaged in” of the now accused, occur in the home (flat) of the victim and primary suspect (AK)?
Why in fact did the party not occur in either RS’s flat (to which AK had been spending her last two weeks living there) or in RG’s flat; where all could have enjoyed their party uninterrupted by others, especially a one MK.
This simple proposition merely states that it makes no sense that the protagonists chose the flat of MK & AK, knowing that the other six flat (2 women and 4 men) would be absent members over this date of Nov 01-02 and that MK would return to such flat, her home. The proposition continues that they (RS, AK, RG) expected MK to appear and that a subsequent planned events would occur including????????????? in fact they planned it.
A previous poster here, I remember the name only a coyote or something name, made this point, but not very clear in their presentation of it. All I can ask of others here is my own efforts to “think a bout it” and explain this simple proposition as to the motivation of the crime.
The only logical explanation I can come up with that counters this explanation is that MK is fully a participant in the party from before it even started. Maybe she was? But doesn't such an absurd proposition just blow all of us away.
More local color about the Italian scene. This is a quote from the english versioin of the Italian paper "Corriere" about the case:
"This is a strong charge to lay at the door of a judicial system as sensitive to civil rights as Italy’s. “It’s quite right. In Italy trials are only by media”, agrees criminal lawyer Giulia Bongiorno. “It’s because there are two speeds in Italy: trial speed and information speed”. According to Ms Bongiorno, this entails a distortion of roles. “It can happen that a journalist manages to interview a witness before the public prosecutor while a lawyer steps into the journalist’s shoes and issues news bulletins”. That is precisely what the British are criticising. “It’s not the media’s fault. The blame lies with our legal system. If Italian system worked and investigations were covered by real confidentiality, I’d be very critical, too. But that’s not the way it is. We lawyers read witness statements in the papers before we can see them in the clerk of the court’s office”.
Thank you bpcl and others for trying to keep the focus on "how".
Surprising how many "party" gossips are out there. I don't think any account by anyone (except other posters) has placed a "party" at that house that night. If I missed it I apologize in advance.
bpcl - I've seen you mention lack of cookies and lack of logs time and time again, and it seems you feel the absence of both proves RS was not online. I'm not saying that he *was*, but I do think you've overlooked the possibility of
...
unsecured wireless networks. I'm not sure he had a laptop (but I dont' think it's a stretch, and desktops can be wireless, as well), and I'm not familiar with Mac's OS myself, but there were times when I inadvertantly ended up on my neighbor's unsecured network because I hadn't forced configuration under Linux, or changed settings in XP, and was none the wiser for a while. Had he turned cookies, cache & browsing history off (odd, but not unheard of), *and* been using someone else's wireless (intentional or not)... there'd be no trace. Unless they were able to find the owner of that unsecured network & access *their* ISP logs. (Assuming Mac's logs are similar to Linux's -- all I'm seeing about internet in the three I've searched since getting online today... is the time my wireless interface was brought up)
puzzler | 12.01.07 - 4:23 am "Surprising how many "party" gossips are out there. I don't think any account by anyone (except other posters) has placed a "party" at that house that night. If I missed it I apologize in advance."
It's important to realize that the "party" means no more than AK, RHG, and RS (+ possibly Mr X and Ms X) having a snack together in the house around 9.00-9.30pm and then moving into AK's room to smoke dope.
It's speculative and used to explain why RHG and RS were both there together (which would otherwise be unlikely - and we know RHG was definitely there, and it is thought he was there coz he had the drugs).
The "party" also serves as the foundation for the theory that MK complained to AK ("strangers in the house yet again"). MK would have been unlikely to complain if AK and RS had been in the house alone.
To recap, we're really talking about a little "get together" which helps to explain certain occurences and phenomena.
bpcl asked:
"Luke,
AK's comments before the Judge were:
"I'm sorry about Patrick. I'm sorry about the whole situation. I'm innocent. I was at Raffaele's house."
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?"
Sorry I am just now catching up on this thread....
My take on Amanda's wording is that she is creating distance (both physical and emotional) by calling what is obviously a gruesome murder a "situation." In truth, I think comments like these that have come from her mouth, are one of the main reasons that I call her a sociopathic personality.
There really does seem to be a void where natural human emotion (sympathy/empathy) SHOULD exist and would exist for most people.
With the new developments (her conversation with her mother,) she seems to be keeping the same emotional distance from the crime. Regardless if "there" means she was at her house or Rafe's house at the time of the murder, she keeps referring to the rape and murder as "IT."
"I was there when IT happened."
"It" didn't happen... Amanda happened.
Honesty, with as screwed up as all of this conflicting media coverage is, I am still finding it difficult to follow this whole mess.
I'm still confused about this other couple, and now, the white car....
At this point, I think Rudy's account makes the most sense. (How sad is that?)
Starts as a drug induced 3 way between Amanda, Rafe, and Rudy.
Amanda instigates/precipitates the attack on Meredith, the rest is up in the air.
Did violence take precedence over sex or did sex take precedence over violence?
Part of me wonders if the sight of menstrual blood didn't act as a catalyst for what was to come?
(We know for a fact that someone was running their hands through her blood, someone was fascinated by it.)
If it WAS rape first, I suppose they would have to kill Meredith, though in a drug induced mental state, that wouldn't necessarily be the train of thought, cause when you are drugged out, your mind doesn't easily come to logical conclusions.
If it was murder first, I would imagine that the means was strangulation... and then "sex" followed. I can't get this part clear in my head, nor can I shake this morbid feeling; that either the sex or some of the knife wounds WERE inflicted postmortem.
I realize that Meredith's heart would have had to still be pumping for significant rapid blood loss, but we still don't have any kind of sufficient time line, so a deep enough wound could exsanguinate over the period of a few hours.
I pray that the broken hyoid was the cause of death..
Just playing catch-up.
I'm laughing at the Italians putting Amanda's mother up "for humanitarian reasons"--then recording their conversations! Very clever!
Not so funny is Amanda saying she wants to stay in Perugia when this is over. Who would possibly be her roommate?! And what makes her think mom and dad would still pay for her European adventure after all this--and the lawyer fees too?
I don't think Amanda's fine for her wild party in Seattle was evidence of her taking responsibility--I think it is evidence of her thinking she could talk her way out of it, and being mistaken.
Regarding the kitchen knife, if Meredith's DNA was only on the tip, could she have used it to spear a mushroom, then bite it off?
A lot of people have pointed out that Knox's statements appear to show a complete and hideous lack of empathy towards Meredith - no mention of her at all, etc. I just wanted to point out that that's not necessarily true. We only know what's been printed in the papers. We don't know if she said something about Meredith's death and they omitted it.
Also, Luke said:
I am intrigued by the female sociopathic personality, as it is the rarer of the two. (though it does seem that their numbers are increasing as of late.)
Female sociopaths aren't rare at all. They're at least as common as male ones. They're perceived as rare mainly because most of us have a preconception of the sociopath that's based on Hollywood blockbusters - a violent serial killer dismembering victims in creative ways. This has nothing to do with the reality.
Many sociopaths - especially female ones - aren't physically violent at all. Many of them don't even break the law. They satisfy their lust for power, control, attention and manipulation in more subtle ways. A lot of them end up as high-level corporate executives or politicians.
Since female sociopaths are a) less likely to fit the Hollywood stereotype and b) less likely to break the law and get diagnosed, they're perceived as rare. But believe me, they're not. You've known plenty. They're that woman who lies more easily than she tells the truth, that woman who's wrecked the head of every man she's ever been with, that woman who creates high drama and vicious miserable feuds in every circle of friends, that woman who turned a happy workplace into a wretched festering pool of tension. They create devastating damage everywhere they go, and they don't need to do it physically.
BeenHereAllAlong "Regarding the kitchen knife, if Meredith's DNA was only on the tip, could she have used it to spear a mushroom, then bite it off?"
But then her dna would also be on the handle, no?
Perhaps Amanda speared a mushroom which she gently offered to Meredith, who then bit it off. "Take, eat."
Good post ,Lili.
Didn't Rafe's lawyers say they could prove he was on the computer between, something like 5:30PM and 2:30AM? I thought that was a sleight of words--which actually just meant he was online at some.
2 1/2 Hours = time for a mushroom to digest
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=1&
gl=uk
(We know for a fact that someone was running their hands through her blood, someone was fascinated by it.)
--------
really, god
Thinkaboutit 3:06am
If in fact the events were not premeditated, whether in absolute conspiracy amongst all suspects or not, why did the so called “party engaged in” of the now accused, occur in the home (flat) of the victim and primary suspect (AK)?
Why in fact did the party not occur in either RS’s flat (to which AK had been spending her last two weeks living there) or in RG’s flat; where all could have enjoyed their party uninterrupted by others, especially a one MK.
-- AK could have gone home because she did not want RS to join her. AK could have gone home cause she needed $$$ for drugs and took from meredith.I don't assume that AK was all that clear headed and she could have thought that MK already left for the holidays. etc....
On another note, I found this interesting re AK an emotions
Details about letter AK wrote 2 days after crime, which I haven’t seen before
"... I don't have my clothes and all my things. I have only what I had in my hands when the police ordered me to leave my house right away, when we found Meredith," Knox wrote.
"I am without a plan and often, I feel a lack of emotion. I only know that I am always nervous. ... I must try to rebuild my life, but I feel I have forgotten how to live like before. I hope you can help me. Maybe we can go shopping for some new clothes. You can meet my roommates.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/
lo...762_knox30.html
Lili | 12.01.07 - 10:42
--wow lili, never thought about that.
"... I don't have my clothes and all my things. I have only what I had in my hands when the police ordered me to leave my house right away, when we found Meredith," Knox wrote.
"I am without a plan and often, I feel a lack of emotion. I only know that I am always nervous. ... I must try to rebuild my life, but I feel I have forgotten how to live like before. I hope you can help me. Maybe we can go shopping for some new clothes. You can meet my roommates.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ lo...762_knox30.html
chris | 12.01.07 - 11:16 am | #
so there she feels dissociated, and I think that saying 'always' means for a time & not just post the crime??? especially since 'often feel a lack of emotion' !!!
I am without a plan???
also, she seems to be showing remorse, either for meredith, or the death of amandas self?
AK in sky news, don't know if bad reporting BUT:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1295262,00.html
quote: "Police are also interested in a section of the bugged conversation in which Knox said: "It's stupid, because I can't say anything else. I was there and I can't lie about that, I have no reason to." "
???????
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith201.xml
when the conversation turned to whether Knox, 20, was at the scene, she said: “It’s stupid, I can’t say anything else, I was there and I cannot lie about it.”
“It is clear to us that she was talking about being at the scene,” said the police source.
“There are several other moments when she alludes to it,” he added.
However, Knox's lawyers have said she was referring to being at her boyfriend's house.
Knox has been writing lengthy notes while in prison, and one purported extract appeared in the Italian press today.
In it, she wrote: “One thing that could have happened is that I smoked marijuana that night, and fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house. I do not remember anything, but maybe Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped and killed her, and then put my fingerprints on the knife back at his house while I was asleep. But I do not know why.”
The police dismissed her new accusation, saying that the suspects had started to accuse each other in their confusion.
============
it seems people were right on this board that they'd accuse each other.
and aso, seems the ILE were thinking along the same lines as some here, that Amandas father should visit hr. and he is.
Pinecone your welcome, but its now all yours to defend! (Such as the ongoing contradictions in Amanda's & Rafe's alibis.) I just love the irony that IF, again IF, Mr & Ms CS are REAL, then the lawyers have truly reasonable leverage even with Italian judges, and it comes from ILE itself as its their CSI that found/"created" them. Very very unlikely they'll never be found, though. How many little white cars are there, and who's to say it wasn't off-cream? Rudy's DNA from another conviction was already in their data bank so they got a lucky hit early.
COMPUTER USE According to either the summary story on the hearing from DM or DT, Rafe's team submitted a 39-page report on why his Mac was indeed being used, not just on. His defense hasn't leaked it to the press and actually only just gave it to the judge(s?) at the hearing. It must have some substance or they wouldn't have presented it so quickly. But the ISP records would, I think, be the final authority on activity--unless hacked wireless! (My daughter in NYC used the renter above her's account for a year but he knew as they went to each other's partys.) These hearings are allowing the defense teams to get an early start on countering ILE evidence before the trial.
ILE's physical evidence is not as good as the papers led each other & us to initially believe, re the non-existent bloody fingerprint I covered above.
Which is why Rudy is so so so important. Next of importance is Amanda's Father: Involuntary manslaughter is sooooo much better than Murder 2, plus it'd be easier for him to negotiate a "hardship" exchange between Italy & Washington Corrections Dept.
Loz, upthread the story about the tape of AK in prison was discussed a lot. Interesting read i thought.
Also, yea about AK "trying to rebuild her life--and that she is not scared" Geez, if my roomate got killed I would be scared that a killer is on the loose. ALso, why would AK need to rebuild her life?
I think this is the most suspicious info, besides AK giving so many different stories about what happened that night.
IS SHE OR ISN'T SHE?
maybe her hairdresser and not her shrink really knows! [An allusion to an ancient American print & tv ad for Breck products.]
re Socio & Psycho - Lili, I think Luke meant to say his interest is in the female psycho. I grant you that in all likelihood there ought to be more female SOCIOs in a general population than female psychos, as the latter are usually seen as a sub-set of the former (I believe Robert Hare at his website comments on this gender difference.) We all tend to confuse the two in general conversation, as I understand the differences. But I suspect I shouldn't be talking on behalf of Luke without his permission!!!!!!!!!!
from 2004, still up on google, which makes your point:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3392233.stm
and the Psycho Checklist from this year, I guess, with links to other Robert Hare sites. Not sure who created it first, Checkley in Masks of Sanity?? or Hare or who?:
http://www.rense.com/general76/psych.htm
The Check-List [apparently not in any particular order]:
1. Glibness/superficial charm.
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth.
3. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
4. Pathological lying
5. Cunning/manipulative
6. Lack of remorse or guilt
7. Shallow affect
8. Callous/lack of empathy
9. Parasitic lifestyle
10. Poor behavioral controls
11. Promiscuous sexual behavior
12. Early behavior problems
13. Lack of realistic, long-term plans
14. Impulsivity
15. Irresponsibility
16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
17. Many short-term marital relationships
18. Juvenile delinquency [or documented anti-social actions from early age, cruelty to animals etc.]
19. Revocation of conditional release
20. Criminal versatility (Hare, 1986)
from http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/
psyc...psychopath.html
SPRAY THE SUSPECTS WITH LUMINOL??
*is it a good or bad idea. will it have worked, would it still work after all this time.
would it be successful at showing up blood or bleach on their body?
Like, inside their ears and stuff? where, even if they used bleach on their hands after clean up - the bleach would show up.
**I can't imagine on that night that part of RS & AK showering would have involved washing themselves with bleach.
* what about the hair on their head?
**or is LUMINOL too caustic to spray on the skin??? is the skin easier to wash blood trace from than other surfaces. I'm thinking of dead skin cells coming off.
***after just thinking about this I AM ALARMED THAT RS WAS GIVEN BLEACH. 2 BOTTLES WAS IT PRECISELY. TO CLEAN A CELL????
still, his ears. he must have missed a bit.
**One pace they'd never bleach themselves on apart from hair???, is around their eyes and on their eye-lids.
Up their nose or around it.
Underneath finger & toenails.
***would it be useful as evidence if it was shown they had bleach on their hands, or hair or other parts of their body***
Also, yea about AK "trying to rebuild her life--and that she is not scared" Geez, if my roomate got killed I would be scared that a killer is on the loose. ALso, why would AK need to rebuild her life?
I think this is the most suspicious info, besides AK giving so many different stories about what happened that night.
chris | 12.01.07 - 11:52 am | #
yep sounds fishy. but is it evidence?
is luminl frequently sprayed or applied to suspects bodies after a murder, if the murder didn't happen too long ago?
does/did RS have cotton earbuds in his cell at the time he had the bleach. still i think i'd be pretty suspect if BLEAC by luminol or whatever means of forensics was found in his ears.
do forensic scientists do this. is it possible.
have they not thought of it????
and someone asked, how could they stnd the stench of bleach. wiki 'luminol' and this comes up:
Luminol also fluoresces in the presence of copper or an alloy of copper, horseradish, and certain bleaches; and as result if a crime scene is thoroughly cleaned with a weak bleach solution (5-6 drops per L), residual bleach will cause the entire crime scene to fluoresce, effectively camouflaging any organic evidence, such as blood.
http://lem.ch.unito.it/didattica...ni/
tabella1.JPG
this is a table of non-chem tests for blood. BUT I don't now if they'd show up bleach, or be affected by it???
finally: "The luminol test was determined to be the most sensitive of the techniques, while Hemastix® is a suitable alternative when the luminol test is not appropriate. Copyright © 2006 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd."
http://www3.interscience.wiley.c...ETRY=1&
SRETRY=0
bcpl was like:
> What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?
I think Knox's use of the term is a shorthand way to include a whole series of events: not just the business with Kercher, but all the subsequent fallout (the arrests, the imprisonment, contradictory statements etc) which will doubtless include stuff we don't yet know about (and which may not be revealed).
However, we should also understand the term "situation" as an Americanism. America: home of the euphemism, the place where people seem to have a lot of rests or baths, but rarely have a shit.
OOppps, again.
#5 above should be "conning", not cunning. My error.
And yes this is Hare's list that has escaped his programmatic control it would seem. The 2001 article that is gotten to by the hare/saturday link above is I think the basic short version of what Hare thinks his test can and can not show, and also his basic summary of psychopathology. It bears re-re-reading; also his two books. While reading it, keep those flashes of Amanda behavior in mind & our discussions about it as above. Amanda may fit better with what even Hare calls "sub-clinical" in her home setting of Seattle, but in Perugia... No shrew would be tamed there!
So, how do you fit on the scale? (Hare says he himself is probably a 3 or even a 5, with 30 the cut-off for clinical status.)
Hhhhmmm. According to his own webite list, the last time Dr. Hare made a presentation in Italy was "Lecture. NATO Advanced Study Workshop, Il Ciocco, Italy, August 27-September 4, 1991". Time for some one to re-invite him!!
Lili commented:
"Female sociopaths aren't rare at all. They're at least as common as male ones. They're perceived as rare mainly because most of us have a preconception of the sociopath that's based on Hollywood blockbusters - a violent serial killer dismembering victims in creative ways. This has nothing to do with the reality."
OK, admittedly a piss poor choice of wording on my behalf...
I am well aware that females are capable of being sociopathic. However, it is a fact that their cases are no where near as documented as those of their male counterparts.
That is what I meant by rare. Rare by incident, rare by report, and yes, rare by manifestation (physical or other.)
Psychopath would be a MUCH better term to use, as Robert M. stated in my defense..lol (Bravo!)
I do get those two twisted sometimes. I guess it's the whole conflict of Nature v. Nurture, Born v. Bred. (Guess it's what happens when you take too many sociology and psychology classes...:P)
At any rate, I just think it's amazing that despite being told from an early age that it is OK to show emotion (which is the opposite with males), the female sociopathic personality suppresses these emotions.
I have known MANY female sociopaths Most of them were military NCOs and COs. Most evil women I have ever met. I have stories...
ah todger, ya shoulda gone for the pun: "shituation".
But a line like "trying to hopscotch through a field of cow flaps" is much more evocative of the "shituation" Amanda & Rafe & Rudy find themselves in! (That one is from a farm-bred college friend from Wisconsin.)
Luke when you feel like it, go to Hare's main page and hit on the subpages and follow links from those elsewhere. Its like the man's work is spreading osmosis-like. There's been no one critical mass point yet, or at least there's no online available list of those programs, agencies or institutions currently using his material and training except for hints from his past presentation list.
Note that in Hare's viewpoint, the true psychopath, male or female, is not suppressing or repressing emotions. They simply don't have them as we understand emotions. They are faking it through practiced behavior. (cf Nicole Kidman story in the 2001 linked article.) If anything, Amanda has too much emotion, from what we can see but with a high narcissistic component, as in no empathic statements about Meredith over the 1st 3 days and really none since. Patrick's tag line on her, "Queen Bee", is really really apt, and so carried to the extreme would be sociopathic behavior for sure, but not necessarily clinical psychopathology.
Have any naked pictures of any of the girls in this case emerged yet?
I heard on the radio today that some of the natalie holloway suspects were realised today due to lack of evidence.
I am surprised that they were able to even import them back to jail in the first place if evidence was bad.
"Have any naked pictures of any of the girls in this case emerged yet?"
You know, Mike, I was actually thinking the same thing... (Especially with knowing how narcissistic Amanda is.)
I just read somewhere the Rafe also had graphic sexually violent "stories" on his myspace. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Thanks, Robert, I'll check it out!
Here's an "interesting" website by a person who seems rather proud of his self proclaimed "sociopathy."
He even has an "Ask a Sociopath" section...
http://www.sociopathic.net/
An interesting blog, "Perugia Shock,"
partly written in English. Intelligent --even via Google Translate-- with titillating local humor that escapes me.
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
Part I, scrolling down, includes other financial commentary, and street scene buzz.
An excerpt:
"The Day of the Jackal (Part II)
Photo Caption: Hit by a sudden sense of well-being. Official photo from the Mail on Sunday.
And so, it’s official; Patrick’s interview was sold to the Mail on Sunday for 70.000 €. At the same time, the rights to his image for the next three years have been entrusted to an agent from Spoleto, Umbria, in connection with Fabrizio Corona. So, from today, if you want to speak with Patrick, you will need to present yourself in Spoleto with a sizeable check; they will throw in a pair of underwear for the price. And if you are lucky, not only will the underwear be designer-wear but they will also have been worn by Fabrizio Corona. The olfactory proof will delight!
Unfortunately, in keeping with what Amanda wrote from prison, Patrick’s interview confirms the behavior of our police. Beyond this, it offers a portrait of Amanda that could not be worse; evil personified.
We’ll talk more about it this evening."
Loz:
Luninol is a presumptive test, and is only an INDICATOR for where blood MAY have appeared, but it also reacts to other chemicals, including bleach. Sometimes in expert testimony, it can indicate the presence of blood that has been cleaned, or sports where intensive cleaning may have occurred. So as an investigative tool, it can show where more investigation is needed.
Not being an expert, I did not want to tangle up some sort of amateur description of the material, so I found a science education site that give more information in a lucid manner.
No. Luminal is not applied to people or animals, only to surfaces as far as I know.
It often leads to heated questioning of expert witnesses on the stand, since the timing of the testing is important. Usually blood detection with luminol is the first step in more sophisticated scientific analysis. It lights up all animal blood, not just human.
There is a good picture here of the sort of imagery that luminol illuminates.
Here's the basics, sort of a neat little website:
http://tinyurl.com/epheg
CORRECTION
"spots", not "sports"
"luminol" not "luminal"
clumsier than usual today.
mi dispiace
Loz:
I've listened to the two recorded clips, but get nothing but *noise* no voice on either that I can hear, even at the loudest setting.
What should I be hearing? Voice from a tv announcer? What is the source of your recording?
Thanks.
Dr. Hare's website is collecting, identifying,posting and where online linking to any articles, books etc that reference or make use of his diagnostic schema. One such I came across is this:
http://www.atypon-link.com/GPI/
d...edi.2007.21.1.1
Sexual behavior is closely associated with delinquency and crime. Although psychopaths, by definition, have many short-term sexual relationships, it has not been shown that sexuality is a core aspect of psychopathy. A Darwinian view of psychopathy led to the hypothesis that psychopaths have a unique sexuality involving early, frequent, and coercive sex ... The present findings...support the hypothesis that psychopathy has been a nonpathological, reproductively viable, alternate life history strategy.
Which really says that psychopaths are "successful" humans(viable, that is able to survive reproduce and pass on traits) -- just not human like the rest of us. And so useful in certain situations for general specie survival or the trait/wiring would have bred out. I've been wondering about that.
xin, ah ok thanks for sharing. no, i WAS just hearing things then!!
sorry xin. thanks for listening though
oh but xin yes, at the time the telly may have been on downstairs, if you can hear that in the background!
thank you again
Rafe's father described his composure as "serene," too.
I can safely say that if I was being held for something I "didn't" do, I would be raising Hell, 24/7.
Seriously, they would have to put me in a straight jacket and shoot me up with Thorazine.
I can safely say that if I was being held for something I "didn't" do, I would be raising Hell, 24/7.
Seriously, they would have to put me in a straight jacket and shoot me up with Thorazine.
Luke
--------
Me too. But one difference is that we will probably never be arrested for murder, or anything else for that matter.
Loz, can you post the link to the "medium" again? (can't find it anywhere now on the thread)
I was thinking about this strangulation business..
I mean the victim is bleeding to death, and AK, RS and RHG are standing there just looking at her...
Which one of the three would have the "guts" to strangle her...
And was it to put the victim out of her misery or was it for the thrill?
(Or was it simply to lessen the amount of blood that had to be mopped up?)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2983881.ece
"Of her days in prison, Knox says: “I sing, I write and when I go out for a walk I sun myself and I’ve got a bit of a tan.”
"Knox protests that other inmates stared at her as if she was “a horrible being”. She adds: “My cell is cold and I’ve got a headache. I feel better only during my walk, I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good.”
Well, that contrasts a bit from the sorority atmosphere she painted, huh?
"Knox’s accusation against Sollecito contrasts with his treatment of her. In a notebook he wrote in jail, he said he did not believe Knox could have murdered Kercher, but has also testified that he thinks Knox may not have spent the night at his flat."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/
u...2220539,00.html
Article detailing the stolen cash theory...
One more link...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/
u...2220539,00.html
Kercher usually withdrew around €30 a time from cash points, but took out €250 two days before her death, most likely to pay her rent,' said Giobbi, a member of the Rome serious crimes squad assisting Perugia investigators. 'Her landlord did not receive the money and there is no trace of it, although Amanda Knox was carrying €215 when she was taken into custody.'
Knox and Guede were possibly alone together at the house when Kercher walked in on them some time around 9pm, said Giobbi. 'Alternatively Guede may have stolen the money from Kercher's room which he then used to pay for his train ticket to Germany,' he said. 'Either way, a row then started.'
Shit, sorry about that, A2.
Haha--No problem. You did a much better job posting the pertinent information...
I've wondered all along why there was such a strong belief in an "extreme sex game" as the motive or trigger for Meredith's murder...I assumed there was evidence that LE had, that hadn't been published. But now, Im not so sure.
I think that a row over A and/or R is a strong possibility.
Meant to say A or R caught stealing, could've started a row...Sorry
Well, it could have been AK and RHG acting without RS.
AK then manufactured a "flood" at RS's apartment and washed that down with bleach too - to make LE suspect RS's involvement.
She was carrying the eight-inch knife in her handbag.
That is plausible,Andy T. I keep thinking, though, about the cell phone conversation between AK and RS early in the investigation. AK told RS "I can't do this anymore. I can't bear it." That always implied complicity on the part of RS for me....Although without knowing his response, perhaps that is a leap.
And when I say that I don't understand the "extreme sex game" as the trigger, I do think it did end with some sort of sexual assault. I don't believe that it was completely staged, as some papers have implied.
This of course is my conjecture, I certainly don't claim to feel certain about anything...
From Observer/Guardian link above:
Kercher...took out €250 two days before her death, most likely to pay her rent,' said Giobbi...'Her landlord did not receive the money and there is no trace of it, although Amanda Knox was carrying €215 when she was taken into custody.'
*
Maybe Amanda Knox had to pay her rent, too. Or, maybe she always kept that amount of money on hand. It could be she was having to replace clothing which was not available to her because the house was being investigated. The story about Meredith accusing Amanda of theft came from Rudy. Maybe he'll get a PR man and negotiate his way to big bucks.
FLAG! This is the FIRST time that an ought-to-have-been investigated issue (Meredith's money) has been raised and given with specifics -- and its directly stated for quotation from the Rome Serious Crimes Unit agent, who is now assisting the Perugian LE. One would presume that similar investigations of the bank accounts of Rafe, Amanda and Rudy have NOW also been made. I'd say that Perugia finally realized they had no smoking guns on Amanda & Rafe and finally agreed to have help on the matter. So, all the physical evidence ONLY ties Rudy to the scene (saving the cellphone records) & he's already said he was there. Perugia really really needs, it would seem, the Big League expertise of Rome, in crossing the Ts and dotting the Is in what now seems to be a highly circumstantial case.
FLAG!
Robert M. | 12.01.07 - 8:05 pm
Good call, Robert M.!
You are right-It seems as though there is a ton of circumstantial evidence against AK and RS, but Rudy is the only one with incontrovertible evidence against him.
RS' shoe print and computer if analyzed properly should be solid evidence either for or against RS, right? As far as AK, is there anything concrete? I hope you're right, Robert M., that they are bring in the big guns.
And if Rudy realizes he's the fall guy, he may decide to add to the list of evidence against AK...
It still doesn't seem that anyone is implicating Rudy, at all.
Amanda has now turned on Rafe. Rudy has suggested an attacker who fits the generic description of Rafe, as well as the little "af" hint. Rafe slickly implied that Amanda may not have been in his flat that night, yet he has said NOTHING about Rudy (or any other Black man that he could make a fall guy, presumably easily, judging from how Patrick was treated.)
Of course, Rafe is also blaming his entire involvement on meeting Amanda.
Could Amanda and Rudy really be trying to set Rafe up?
I personally lean towards all three being involved, but why hasn't Rudy been mentioned at all?
I know it's "out there," but what if maybe their little group sex "party" involved homosexual acts between Rafe and Rudy??? That could explain why Rafe has made zero mention of Rudy.
Wonder what would happen if Meredith stumbled upon that?
Yeah, far out there, I know.... but I go where my mind leads me. :/
From Observer/Guardian link above:
Kercher...took out €250 two days before her death, most likely to pay her rent,' said Giobbi...'Her landlord did not receive the money and there is no trace of it, although Amanda Knox was carrying €215 when she was taken into custody.'
*
Maybe Amanda Knox had to pay her rent, too. Or, maybe she always kept that amount of money on hand. It could be she was having to replace clothing which was not available to her because the house was being investigated. The story about Meredith accusing Amanda of theft came from Rudy. Maybe he'll get a PR man and negotiate his way to big bucks.
Pinecone | 12.01.07 - 7:59 pm | #
OR MAYBE SHE WAS GONNA DO A RUNNER, as clearly it wasn't for drugs.
and as for amanda accrording to rudy ALWAYS STEALING MONEY FOR DRUGS OR DRUG MONEY BEING BEHIND THE MURDER.
I thought TWICE: HANG ON, RS WOULD JST PAY AMANDA OUT OF ANY DRUG DEBT.
I mean, maybe sometimes amanda stole money from MK, just because she wanted to.
but that night...
Just trying to figure out why Rafe wouldn't mention the one person who this whole thing could and would be pinned on...
and anyway,
since AK had most of the money on her:
IT IS CLEAR MONEY WASN'T THE DRIVING MOTIVE BEHIND THE CRIME????
unless AK was what, gonna 'run away' anyway???
WOULD RS FUND HER THOUGH???
i am confused about this money.
Or maybe the guy with a history of breaking into places with a knife stole it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
Just trying to figure out why Rafe wouldn't mention the one person who this whole thing could and would be pinned on...
Luke | Homepage | 12.01.07 - 8:54 pm | #
strategy? pact of "silence".
because they've all got something on each other that night, ie they were all involved in it deeply.
an "I won't talk if you don't talk" thing.
do the best cleanup, and pray the forensics/investigation won't catch them out?
OOOR JUST SIMPLY:
RS & AK thought RHG had split, they never expected him to finger a tall italian boy with brown hair as the murderer.
so AK & RS deny everything.
RS denied even being thre. So, how can he pin it on RHG verbally in statements without revealing his involvement.
No, what he did was leave a fingerprint, and didn't remove the hair from MKs hand. Unless he couldn't or didn't have time to launder fully? he (is said to) have left a bloodied footprint afterall.
Maybe because RS was at home at the time and involved in the clean up only & so would miss stuff(although I personally believe he was there)
Luke:
"Knox protests that other inmates stared at her as if she was “a horrible being”. She adds: “My cell is cold and I’ve got a headache. I feel better only during my walk, I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good.”
Well, that contrasts a bit from the sorority atmosphere she painted, huh?
--------
cos it was to persuade the judge to release her on bail, as if to say she's not desperate to get out, or hates it, and would go on the run to escape it.
and it also show what a deft liar she (or her laywer) is.
I guess the judge knows whos handwriting it was in. and maybe a psychologist or some kind of writing expert would know if it came from 'her' or she was told to write it?
andyT, I will try to find the post. needle in an ever-growing haystack eh!
I get no sense of why, or what method. I only think amanda instigted the sexual attack, 'set her dogs' on MK. and that she wasn't angry, but laughing.
either just off her head off drugs & so cruel, or merely cruel.
sorry just had to have a cig. cos that's the most awful thing. i can only hypothesise if true, maybe it wasn't the moment before the attack, mayb even amanda was trying to get meredith on board, maybe it was earlier in the evening, before any argument or monney stuff? maybe amanda didn't realise what would be unlashed later?
but then, i always think, was there any attempt to save MK or stop anything. or after it was over to phone an ambulence?
The stolen money theory seems an awfully speculative theory to be floated by the police.
It worries me a little that the police are publicly speculating like that.
erm sorry to say this again. basically i made a recording. at first I thought it said "I don't know who did it" but i listened back today and now i think it says 'i told who did it'. I tried to put it on youtbe yesterday, but it has not accepted. It seems to be a female S.London accent. I am mancunian, in the uk, & never been to italy so.... i know someone on the other thread said something about shadows 'posing' as people. and after all this i am going to 'close the door' & get reconfirmed. anyway,
my email is: love_life_2_death@hotmail.co.uk if anyone who can get it on the net, and listen to the originals & enhanced recording. I'd like others opnions if you just want it mailing and to listen. I KNOW it's crazy, unlikely and all that.
But that RHG guy did say MK had said something he may not be telling the truth of the initials she gave. who knows. probably just radio signals or sounds reverbing in space & time *shrugs*
Loz | 11.30.07 - 6:26 pm | #
AndyT, don't know how to 'link' and how that all works, so copied & pasted
A crime novel containing disturbing parallels with Meredith Kercher's murder has been withdrawn from publication.
Murder In Perugia features a bar owner accused of murdering a Briton who studied in the town under the same Erasmus student exchange scheme Meredith was on.
It also mentions bars where Meredith and her friends regularly drank.
The 80-page novel was due out on the day Meredith's body was found, but publication has now been postponed.
American author Zachary Nowak said: "It's a terrible coincidence my book was due out on the same day. We decided it should be withheld out of respect for Meredith's family."
--that's just BIZARRE. is there any links between the author, a white car, or any of the suspect. were previews able to be read maybe by any suspects?---
also, the fact rudy broke & entered a place with a knife. and AKs kitchen knife.
very alarming stuff
Saturday, 17 November 2007 4:08 am
Sherck, as always, you cut to the quick. Despite the fact that there is part of me that is enjoying the attention my book is getting (it's not coming yet, maybe after the holidays), it makes me uneasy that a) it's beacuse of the violent death of a young girl that happened about 100m from my house, and B) that it is part of a media construction of what happened and who these kids in jail are. Using online resources like their blogs and MySpace profiles, the media here have created personas: Amanda "Foxy Knoxy" Knox, Raffeale the Violent Loner, Patrick the Almost-Redeemed Black Guy. It's weird that my book, which is not prophetic in any way as there is no murder in it, has been described over and over with that word. It leaves a lot of questions about the media, not many with simple answers.
from: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=1&
gl=uk
And if Rudy realizes he's the fall guy, he may decide to add to the list of evidence against AK...
a2 | 12.01.07 - 8:19 pm
Yeah, that's it. Rudy's the fall guy. He ought to be able to work out a deal for himself by testifying against AK and RS. I'm sure he knows how to work the system, and hearsay appears to be the foundation of Italian justice.
http://translate.google.com/tran...%2522%26hl%
3Den
here's a review of the book
sorry but i think the guy is sick 'maybe after christmas' *fumes*
It worries me a little that the police are publicly speculating like that.
blah | 12.01.07 - 9:21 pm
I doubt if there's any rule against making prejudicial statements about people accused of crimes there. This case is putting an international spotlight on their justice system. If they knew how to act right, they'd have been doing so before now.
WE HAVE AN A.F PEOPLE:
It IS either Zachary Nowak author of the book, or a person who is against his (zachary describes himself as a peaknik) Paknik ways.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=1&
gl=uk
It is either the article ends in AF, or Zachary Nowak ends his comment: AF.
Now, is this all a set up? or does RHG KNOW Zachary, or whoever the author of tis was
to quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Editorial Notes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Contributor Zachary Nowak writes:
I hope this helps those of us who anticipate a less-than-peachy crash get ready. I hope to have an annotated "summer reading list" ready soon.
There is also a 'third way', one which combines self-sufficiency/survivalist type tactics with community building and some relatively positive visions. Eco-villages, Richard Heinberg's lifeboats strategy, and the town-scale efforts in places such as Kinsale in Ireland and Willits in California might be considered part of this approach. Isolationist survivalism, constantly on the guard from marauding hordes, doesn't sound like an existence most of us would consider worth living. And promoting it, where it takes our energies away from more collective energy descent tactics might actually increase the likelyhood of such uncontrolled collapse and desperate marauders. So the ethics of promoting such an approach are complex. We publish Zachary's article because it is full of excellent advice and resources of value to anyone with an interest in taking more than a superficial approach to sustainability (a term which ultimately does mean the same thing as survival.)
Community solidarity and trust are great wildcards in this picture. An interesting example I heard recently compared the culture of Australian and Americans in WW2 concentration camps, where the Australians, taking a more communal and less competitive approach, fared better. There are ways to build valuable community connections while at the same time learning new skills for energy descent through workshops and self-education processes, some of these type of approaches I'm involved in personally. At a local level we can in many cases actually affect that culture quite significantly with some creative approaches. In many circumstances, collective efforts may offer a better and richer survival strategy than an isolationist approach.
-AF
=================
but how would MK know him & know to say this to RHG??? hw could it all be set up.??
a coincidence?
it doesn't exonerate the others, what if they knew of the murder, and decided to play along?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/pro.../
A3H1LQWKASUCLS
zachary nowaks profile.
http://groups.google.co.uk/
group...21522b6348abe3f
Not all students come to Perugia - or go on study abroad programs - just to
have fun with other Americans, said Zachary Nowak, 30, a New Yorker who fell in
love with Perugia during a study abroad program and never left.
"They are really integrated," he said of the foreign students. "There's no
Campo dei Fiori here, they have to make an effort. If they want to order a
margarita in English in a bar, they'd go to Rome or Florence."
-----
stretching it here but PL said AK didn't have a great grasp of Italian. although MKs boyfriend said he was particularly impressed by her Italian.
could this Zach person, or some locals of perugia, have a problem with this?
sorry guys, a bit more digging and it was just a cincidence:
Energy Bulletin to date has been maintained by three editors: Bart Anderson, Adam Fenderson, & Liam Cranley, based respectively in California USA and Melbourne Australia.
http://www.energybulletin.net/about.php
all i can gather is that they are both interested in ooil & energy.
last post:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?h...+Nowak%22&
meta=
it's an interesting coincidence. but all seems FAR TOO tenuous. they clearly know of each other, but they seem to disagree?
oh & one last thing promise. they are BOTH interested in 'wild edibles'=mushrooms? but t was said to be button mushrooms that AK MK & RS had.???
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=2&
gl=uk
he's in the web programming. tink it's him & not the american flm one, since this is basd in australia.
nah, it doesn't seem plausable AT ALL
Perugia really really needs, it would seem, the Big League expertise of Rome, in crossing the Ts and dotting the Is in what now seems to be a highly circumstantial case.
Robert M. | 12.01.07 - 8:05 pm | #
I believe that Rudy is the fall guy. The evidence pointing to him is the only forensic evidence that was left behind, without any attempt at removal. AK even made a very loud point at the police station about his "shit" in the toilet. She wanted it --and him--to be implicated.
So far, the defense for RS and AK has challenged the forensic evidence against their clients, which is why the analysis of these items( shoe print, computer history, DNA on the knife, blood spot) has to be irefutable(Enter Rome Serious Crimes Unit).
Without concrete evidence against RS and AK, Rudy could be left hanging out to dry. If he figures this out, he may start to spill all the details.
I can't help but wonder how RS and his dad will react to the published excerpt from AK's diary. The one about Rafe possibly sneaking out to rape and kill M.
AK might want to be careful with regard to what she says about RS...He has an appointment with the lead investigator coming up.
Loz said:
stretching it here but PL said AK didn't have a great grasp of Italian. although MKs boyfriend said he was particularly impressed by her Italian.
***
Actually, PL said that of MK. Not AK.
Given that the leaked evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is all circumstancial and tenuous at best, I think we should consider the possibility that they are innocent. The only evidence we have is against Rudy.
A scenario: Rudy breaks into the house with a knife on him and begins to burgle it. Then he goes to the bathroom to relieve himself, and hears someone enter the house. He doesn't flush because he doesn't want to alert them to his presense. He quietly emerges from the bathroom and tries to sneak out, but Meredith sees him and starts freaking out, so he starts strangling her to shut her up and then does the rest of it. (I don't particularly want to rehash those details.)
Thoughts?
I've thought about the possibility that RH acted alone, too. But who did the clean up of the flat and the knife and RS' place, and MK's clothes in the wash...and why if they were innocent?
From withness accounts. RH was out of there early. And someone other than RH left a footprint in Meredith's blood.
a2, good points in your 2 posts quoted below. AK must not be too pleased at the mo': still in prison, diary confiscated and musings about RS revealed, and still - no guitar.
IMHO, the british press (sun, mail, or the ilk) really made too much of AK's prison ponderings. seems like an obvious pressure tactic.
it looked to me that AK was continuing her previous direction as shown in prior "prison memoires" leaks : 'gee, i just CAN'T remember ... all that weed ... just don't remember ..."
she extended that to include a wild musing of WHAT could have happened, what was "possible" (as she said) to explain that pesky knife ending up in RS's kitchen (not to mention her flatmate being raped and murdered, ALL whilst AK was 'sleeping'). her emphasis and concern was not on RS per se, but on HER - SHE was sleeping, not involved, doesn't know, etc etc etc.
AK didn't think through what would happen if her 'private prison diary' got confiscated. as, it turned out, it did. her narcissism at work, in restricting her focus to her own feelings, thoughts, goals - and not on their potential results.
this latest "diary" leak looks like another pressure tactic to get someone (RS in this case) to say something, anything, as the three suspects maintained an alliance of silence.
sadly, it is looking like LE has a pretty thin case at this point. i hope that Rome will be of some help.
now we shall see how RS reacts.
**
a2 wrote:
Without concrete evidence against RS and AK, Rudy could be left hanging out to dry. If he figures this out, he may start to spill all the details.
a2 | 12.01.07 - 11:30 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
I can't help but wonder how RS and his dad will react to the published excerpt from AK's diary. The one about Rafe possibly sneaking out to rape and kill M.
AK might want to be careful with regard to what she says about RS...He has an appointment with the lead investigator coming up.
Rudy's fingerprints are all over the crime scene but Amanda's & Raffaele's fingerprints are everywhere else. The truth is out there, its just going to take time.
I have some further thoughts that will probably be unpopular on this thread. I don't trust the media reports, and I don't trust information that has been leaked out of context, unless it's an incontrovertible fact like DNA or a positive ID on a bloody fingerprint on a pillow. I'm also trying to evaluate the information we have in a straightforward, occam's razor fashion (a la Pinecone). As a result, I have some thoughts on Amanda that paint her in a much more sympathetic light than has been done on this thread.
If we presume that she is innocent a) on principle or b) because there is no concrete proof of her guilt at this point, then a different picture of Amanda emerges, one that sees her behavior up to this point as normal.
Consider first the details of her personality and her past:
-divorced parents
-upper-middle class upbringing
-Catholic education
-athletic
-insecure around women
-promiscuous
-recreational drug user
-pretty intelligent
-attractive
-college student
-enthusiastic
-likes to have fun
She sounds like a pretty typical young American woman in college. I knew A LOT of girls like her. They tended to be obnoxious and self-absorbed, the kind of people that were fun to hang out with occasionally but that I wouldn't befriend. Didn't make them likely murderers, and doesn't make her one, either.
Consider her behavior after the murder:
-kissing her boyfriend
-shopping for lingerie
-sounding off on her discovery of evidence (the crap in the toilet) loudly in the police station
To me, I can imagine wanting to find solace (from the pictures, it looks like soft pecks on the lips, not like passionate making out) in physical contact, and the shopping trip could have been escapist. Wanting to make sure that the police get her evidence observation sounds like she was being obnoxiously conscientious.
Her behavior while being interrogated:
-she's tired and confused. There's a language barrier, and the stage is set for a lot of intimidation, fear and miscommunication. If you're scoffing at my idea of the language barrier and miscommunication, just think about all the confusion we've had on this board regarding the tampone, and how the mistranslation of "serena" as "serene" rather than "calm" when quoted in the English papers make Amanda sound like a dingbat.
-She's under duress, and the police are pressing her for information. She has nothing to give them, but under the pressure of it all, collapses and produces a likely scenario that places both her and a black man at the scene of the crime--because this is what the police are pressing for. This is not an unlikely situation. It's a proven fact that accused people have produced false confessions because they can't take the pressure of interrogation, and are seeking momentary relief.
Her behavior in jail:
-She's been singing to herself, writing in a diary, rediscovering her religion, and trying to socialize with the other prisoners: if you pre
Shoot, my comment was way long and got cut off. Well, the gist of the rest of it was this: her behavior in jail isn't strange, either, and her "accusations" of Raffaele are excerpts from a personal diary. She didn't release it of her own free will, and it sounds like she's using the diary to sort out her thoughts and feelings. The "accusation" sounds like she's rehearsing a possible scenario, much like we have been on this thread, and by the end she concludes "I don't know how he could have done this."
I have some further thoughts that will probably be unpopular on this thread.
BD | 12.02.07 - 12:52 am
Excellent post, BD.
Bd, I don't find your thoughts in the least bit objectionable. This is more real to me than all the extreme, occult theories put forth thus far. I think that even in sensationalized cases such as this, it is often a more mundane activity that has taken place.
But, how do you square the cleaning and rearranging of the crime scene? And the fact that AK's room had virtually no prints at all? How did Rudy get into the house? Who washed MK's clothes the next morning? I don't pretend to know that it was AK, but certainly someone other than Rudy, who didn't stick around after the murder....
Thanks for the rational overview, BD. Part of my interest in this case is that Amanda seems like SOOO many Americans college girls in so many ways.
The part I can't wrap my head around is the way she has responded to the gruesome murder of her flatmate. Granted, this is in no way evidence. But I can't imagine any of those 20-year-olds I know not being TOTALLY freaked out by a murder of a roommate. Freaked out and absolutely terrified. If none of the three suspects are murderers, then the culprit has remained at large and it seems like Amanda would have spent the next few days in fear for her life - not out casually shopping.
Her lack of empathy for Meredith's family is also not only appalling but completely incomprehensible to me. Nowhere in her past "profiles" has it indicated that she would be so heartless.
It is these responses that cause me to doubt her innocence - more than her mixed-up, possibly drugged-up array of stories. Her reactions after the fact don't fit the "nice college girl who got a little wild in Europe" scenario.
To BD
To be honest I never comletely bought into Amanda commiting part of this crime. But however, maybe innocently in her own mind, I think she helped turn this drug dealer into this Frankenstein monster. Thus some culpability.
Tracy,
You are correct in your assumption about unsecured wireless networks. You mentioned that had he turned off cookies, cache and browsing off( I did mention that was a possibility) *and* began using someone else's wireless network, no one would be the wiser. And this is a distinct possibility.
However, he stated that he had been on the computer during the time of the supposed murder until the wee hours of the morning. Computers and servers are great witnesses Tracy. Although I highly doubt whether or not he would be able to use a neighbor's wireless network for that length of time, it can easily be checked if access was being made from the neighboring networks during this period.
It has never been said by his team that this is what occurred however. I have not seen them say, wait a second, he was probably using his neighbor's wireless network *and* he had cookies, cache and browsing history all turned off at the same time.
Taking a leap of faith, and assuming that all of those things to be true I ask you the following. He is knee deep in surfing on the net during the time of the murder. His father calls but he does not answer. Okay, was he in the bathroom or was he in the kitchen or was he sleeping; it would have been a perfect alibi. All he had to do was respond, even the VERY next DAY. His father sends him a text message sometime afterwards saying 'Goodnight,' a pretty personal message don't you think; it implies about a constant sort of connection between father and son. Okay, he was sleeping, in the kitchen, who knows, whatever; but he could have answered it, even the VERY next DAY. It would have been the perfect alibi.
He stated in the aftermath, that he was with AK during the night. That would have been the perfect alibi; however, he changed that by saying he was alone, on the net.
I will accept your proposition, that the two items you mentioned, together, could have happened. That being said, it still then does not give him an alibi at all to account for his time.
BD,
Who then is responsible for the magnificent cleanup afterwards? You certainly cannot mean the drug pusher RG do you? Blood was found in the downstairs flat. Only AK had the key to it. Why you might ask? Because the boyfriend of Meredith gave it to MK so that she could watch his plants and feed the cats while he was visiting his parents.
BD,
The Police have reported as well that there were no signs of a break in to the property, so that would imply that no burglary took place.
AK has based her alibi on being at RS flat the night of the murder. RS has stated that he was alone the night of the murder, surfing the net. If RS says she was not there, then AK has no alibi. If AK cannot prove where she was, then she was at the cottage(that is where she lived) If she was at the cottage, then she participated in the murder.
I don't recall that RS said he spent all his computer time on the internet. As I remember it, he said he watched a movie he downloaded and also worked at his computer. I do plenty of things on my computer that don't require an internet connection. I imagine most other people do also. Sometimes, while movies are downloading in the background, I am writing or studying from programs on the same computer which have no internet connection. You're too hung up on the cookie thing. His attorneys say they have proof. I believe them.
DLW,
A knife was found in RS's flat that contained the DNA of Meredith on the tip, and AK on the handle. The Judge stated that one of the reasons for keeping AK in prison was the presence of the knife. AK has stated that RS must have put her fingerprints on it while she was sleeping.(How unlikely is that?) Meredith had never been to the RS flat. If the knife contains the DNA of both Meredith and AK, then she has a serious problem. I suggest to you that both AK and RS were knee deep involved in the murder of Meredith. The only question that remains is, was it premeditated or not. The fact that a knife, never seen inside the cottage(as testified by the girls living there) implies that it was taken from RS's flat and brought to the cottage. By default, this is premeditation. If the knife is transported, the person transporting it must know be cognizant that it could cause harm and even kill.
The alleged DNA was not stable, not blood, and not a definitive match to anyone. Experts testified the knife was too large to inflict the neck wounds. The murder weapon was an item with a sharp point, but not a sharp blade. I like the shard of glass theory. According to reports from Germany, Rudy had a large gash on the palm of his hand.
Pinecone,
You may be right on that and I can accept that. But how do you square off the fact that he failed to respond to a telephone call from his father as well as the text messaging. I am not hung up on the cookie thing as you say. The cookie thing could be the very thing that could exonerate him. After all, that is what we are trying to do here, is it not? We want to find an alibi for him that will do that. What you are trying to do is explain away his alibi by saying he could have worked on his computer without the world knowing. Tell me then, what is his alibi, as you see it? That he was home all the time doing stuff on the computer that did not require the internet, downloading from time to time etc(and by the way, your hypothesis can be proved by the lawyers showing that a movie was being downloaded during a specific time.)
Tell me then, what is his alibi, as you see it?
bpcl | 12.02.07 - 2:30 am
As I see it, his alibi is exactly what he has said. He had nothing to do with the crime.
Pinecone,
You can anything you want too about the DNA being unstable, or that the murder weapon was a shard of glass or a knife. I am not privy to that information. I only go on the statements of the parties involved. I will let go of the knife if you will. Let's get back to the statements of the parties involved. RS said he was with AK initially. AK stated the same. When RS said he was alone, AK said she was at the cottage. Now AK says she was at RS's flat and RS says he was surfing, although as of yet he cannot prove it. Since they have both lied, why am I to believe a word they say now?
Pinecone,
Since he has lied to the Police about his actions, you can now say you believe him when he says he was alone, surfing?
And by the way, I believe he told the Police that he answered the call from his father. I know that to be a lie because if it had been true, his father would have vociferously stated that he talked to his son on the phone. Thus far, he has not made that statement. This is another lie from RS to the Police. We are tying to help the guy find and alibi, are we not?
This is another lie from RS to the Police. We are tying to help the guy find and alibi, are we not?
bpcl | 12.02.07 - 2:40 am |
At this point, RS has more credibility than the police. He doesn't need help with his alibi.
Pinecone,
Your last statement does not even merit a response.
"Let's get back to the statements of the parties involved."
I won't trust any "statement" from the parties involved unless I see them make the statement, or unless the statement is relayed through their lawyers or family members. The press and the police continually contradict each other. They even contradict their own previous statements. The cops announced "case closed" before they bothered to gather crime scene evidence or verify alibis. Rudy was well on his way to Germany and the cops were all high-fiving each other over a job well-done.
A young girl is brutally murdered. Two suspects are currently in prison for it. Both of them have lied about their supposed whereabouts. Both suspects are admitted drug users and deeply involved in premarital sex. Incredulously, they are seen in a lingerie shop the day after the murder, discussing sex and kissing. The girlfriend of one of the current suspects attempts to frame someone else for the murder. Neither of the two suspects have expressed any kind of open grief or inward pain for the girl who was brutally murdered.
How much credibility should a given community be expected to give to these two outstanding and supposedly credible human beings?
Their was likely some backandforth of knives & other things between appartments. I don't know if dried skin cells could account for both Amanda's $ Meredith's Dna on the same knife. Far fetched maybe.
So in other words, none of us are allowed to make any statements about anything, unless they are approved by whom, God, the Judge, the lawyers, or maybe you. Are are we to assume then, that the world is not real, that when people say things, that they are not at all what they really meant to say, or perhaps even just half the truth, or maybe they were said under duress.
Or maybe we should just throw out the Press because they report things that are not true, or even the Police who fumble around as you say. Maybe we don't need anything at all to live this life. We are all just an imagination, nothing is real. When we here people say things, or other people say things about each other, nothing is real.
According you, there is no truth of anything unless it comes from the suspects lawyers or family members. I ask, why would they tell the truth any better then say you or I or the Police, or the lawyer; why should I assume that they know the truth?
DLW,
The other girls have testified that they never seen that knife in their apartment. According to the Police, the knife had been bleached cleaned. DNA residue of Meredith and AK was found on it. AK, in her recent, monitored calls, never said that she brought that knife back and forth, or even ever brought it to the cottage. For heavens sake, she only knew RS for two weeks, and spent most of her time there. I hardly think that for a couple who was making love every morning, that they had time to think, 'Gee, I should bring this knife to the cottage to make dinner)
i have to agree with bpcl about the credibility of Knox and Sollecito's 'statements'. They have both cried wolf too often (especially Knox) - so why is there any reason to believe a single word either one of them says? It's their own fault for lying. Knox also had no qualms about accusing Lumumba, and now she seems to be implying that Sollecito could have crept out and committed the crime while she was asleep!! Sorry, but when someone continually lies, there is no reason to believe their 'next' version of events.
----------------
I too doubt the credibility of AK and RS, in light of their changing statements (lies).
On the other hand, nobody - even a liar - should be incarcerated for at least 26 years based on flimsy evidence. I think this is the point Pinecone has been making.
As regards the knife, AK scored an own goal when she stated - in her "My Prison" ramblings - that she had already carried a knife in her bag in a town in N. Europe. LE need to find out when and where that was. (I suspect it may have been when she visited the Reeperbahn in Hamburg - and not because she felt unsafe! LE may be able to learn something from that.)
We now know that all three (current) suspects have a history of carrying knives on their persons.
At this point, AK has the least credibility of the three suspects, IMO.
RS may initially have lied to LE, but he can claim (and has claimed) that his lying was AK's fault. I think in Italy this argument will be better understood than it would be in the Anglo-sphere. Apart from this initial lie, RS's account has been broadly consistent.
AndyT
We are not privy to all the evidence that the Police have in their possession. The Police have stated that the bloody shoe print contains an irregularity that is particular to the shoe that was worn by RS. The Police have stated that two bottles of empty bottles of bleach were found in his flat. These are the reasons that the Judge stated for keeping him in prison, not to mention his consistent lying to the authorities. The Police have also stated that both the cottage and his flat were cleaned down by bleach.
You know the term 'Accessory after the fact'? If it is discovered that RS was even involved in the cleanup, he is guilty by association. How does one say, I was not involved in the actual murder, only the clean up. If he was involved for example, only in the clean up, then he is still holding back information that prevents the Police from doing their job. He is culpable to the murder itself.
This girl was brutally murdered. Her parents have lost their daughter. They would like to see justice done. If he was only involved in the cleanup, he is still culpable. In the end, if he is only involved in the clean up, how is he any better than the others, and as a human being, he only prolongs the suffering of the Kercher family by his reticence.
Luke: "I know it's "out there," but what if maybe their little group sex "party" involved homosexual acts between Rafe and Rudy??? That could explain why Rafe has made zero mention of Rudy."
...stretching things a little, Luke...
But, who knows, maybe this will be AK's next story (??): "RS sneeked out of the apartment while I was asleep. He was carrying the knife and was heading for the other house to make out with RHG in my bed. MK must have disturbed them. I have seen this in my dream. But I don't know what the truth is."
I believe them.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 2:19 am |
FREE THEM NOW>>>>
your faith shall be rewarded
.
bcpl
I agree, if the shoeprint is his, then he obviously is involved - and culpable as you rightly state.
But let's give him a little leeway. If AK really is a monster-murderer, then she would have been capable of twisting things to the extent that RS was completely taken in.
As I said above, she may have manufactured the flood in RS's apartment, and she may have known that he would immediately clean up using bleach. Indeed, the whole bleach story may be simply to frame RS.
Under this scenario, AK left RHG's shit in the toilet, coz she knew that, in the end, RHG would be found by police, and would then incriminate RS (RHG has already done this indirectly, by referring to the Italian with brown hair. WIll he be asked to "identify" RS as the murderer.)
I'm implying her a conspiracy between AK and RHG to incriminate RS.
Surely, this is a possibility.
Rob and Pinecone: As regards freeing AK, I think she should be in a single cell. I fear for her cellmates.
AndyT,
I will not assume any scenario because I am not qualified to do that. RS will have his day in court I am sure. My argument is that he currently does not have an alibi whatsoever. His claim that he was surfing the net simply does not wash with me. I know there are people who would disagree with me on that statement. However, what no one can really answer is, why he failed to not only miss a phone call, but also a text message from his father. The text message was personal and he never responded to them. And from what the Police said, they said he lied to them when he said he answered the call.
I am not into supposition about what might have occurred in the cottage that evil night. At the current moment, RS is not telling all that he knows about the murder to the Police; simply put, that is why he is still in prison and by default, this makes him an accessory after the fact. He is impeding their investigation. The judge stated in last Friday's invocation that RS has consistently been unable to answer questions that have been posed to him, or that he contradicts himself.
I do not know how else I can say this to you. He had something to do with this murder and he is not owning up to it.
You argue well bcpl, and your conclusions are sound.
The only possible "mitigating circumstance" that I can think of, is that RS is a total flake.
Pinecone??
AndyT,
RS being a total flake is were you and I share common ground. And as you rightfully say, that might be RS's only 'mitigating' excuse. In time, the truth will come out, maybe not the way you and I think, or anyone else here for that matter.
What is most important to recognize I think, is that a young girl was brutally murdered, left to die really, by an as of yet unknown group of perpetrator(s).
No person should deserve to die like she did, with her throat cut and her blood oozing out, unable to cry out for help, or even lift a finger. Meredith was totally dependent on these people, whoever they might have been, and they left her to die.
Like her family, I seek a kind of responsible justice if you will, one that elevates her dignity. Unfortunately, the trio we are talking about, AK/RS/RG seem to be devoid of any kind of reality and thus, incapable of helping us find the 'truth' Good Night.
G'night bpcl, sleep tight.
For the moment we must trust in the ability of Italian LE to uncover the facts.
Andy et al
my set them free post was sarcastic
don't forget the 'magic mop' from the cottage to clean the pipe leak in the boyfriend's flat. it has loads of DNA on it and we don't know about the analysis of the pipe plumbing they removed from the boyfriend's shower in his flat.
theses clowns will probably get off lightly seeing as the italians have a foreign black guy to pin it on.
and they will both make loads of money and new kinky friends.
ah justice!
.
bpcl, cudos to you. Someone finally took the time to put Pinecone's argument on the sidelines. Following Pinecone's line of logic leads to no crime ever having been committed. Oh if only that were true.
The computer issue has been covered, although somewhat fuzzily. The bottom line is the service provider (portal) can verify if the computer was online. But it's true that keeping Safari on a Mac from leaving traces requires simply clicking one item on the main menu. That would account for the statement that RS's computer shows it was not online but that's not the right place to look.
if the boyfriend was downloading a film like he says he probably used a bittorrent application. this would make many calls through the ISP to the different torrent peers to download the movie as a file. this activity would be logged but is totally automated.
the police say something definitely human triggered happened online around 5.30 am or something.
there are other UNIX/BSD logs on his computer available for scrutiny.
.
Maybe the 5.30 computer activity was when RS/AK googled "blood and bleach?"
Loz said:
stretching it here but PL said AK didn't have a great grasp of Italian. although MKs boyfriend said he was particularly impressed by her Italian.
***
Actually, PL said that of MK. Not AK.
jw | 12.01.07 - 11:57 pm | #
sorrym typo. this is what I meant
do you know, I think AK may have not liked MK one bit, I don't even know that she's sorry she died, or sorry of the fact that she died over a long time in a great deal of pain, and even shopped for lingerie with RS the next day.
I think AK deffo let MK down, in not caring maybe if MK was violated, in bringing back men to the house who she really doesn't know, who might not have even give her their real name. and in not calling an ambulence, or telling the truth.
But what is incongruent with her being the actual murderer is the fact that she says if she was in the room when it all happened, MK would not have died. and also the fact of her insecurity, her desire to impress people, the fact she's a try-hard, and so ultimtely A FOOL. maybe though she's just lying.
interesting factoid: ak (is this true) likes to 'forage' & had a cooking knife. Zachary (the author of murder in perugia) also likes 'wild' cooking. They are both American. He clearly frequented Le Chic where AK worked (and he used Le Chic & PL for inspiration) , and may have even slept with her or just known her & they found they had a lot in common. He lives 100m from the house. *wonders why AK framed PL, why not RHG*
*wonder if Zachary Nowak also is a man who is taller than RHG, and has brown hair, and used wrote the book & was just looking for a victim, if he used the alias 'AndyFinnemental' inspired by his internet blogging. BUT Zach is not italian, i wonder if he would pass as italian to an italian, has he been speaking it from a young age?
but you know what makes it all look premeditated - the fact that AK was there and didn't question why RHG suddenly split.
*you know like rhg said he could ID the man who did it in a line-up. I'd like Zach AND RS to be there.
things that go against the theory - they are all covering for Zach (why would they do that!).
I wonder if they dusted the jar of mushrooms in RS's fridge for MK's prints. AK or RS may have taken it back to RS along with the knife??
Also there are apparently receipts for the bleach purchase. Has there been any word whether it was RS or AK that made the purchase??
another thing that goes against the book promotion/fantasy thing, despite that it's obviously VERY tenuous, is the fact of AK maybe having mks money on her.
Unless she was going to use it to split/do a runner and it wasn't one of the many motives, or things that contributed to the he extremely painful death that MK suffered greatly that night.
and someone asked if Rome could be involved, I think definitely YES, the catholic church tridents&sins who knows, but the police there yes, because her body was taken there.
so, I guess if the book thory iis true (which even i accept is very very unlikely) the people/person that knows if the book thing must be very scared., must be having the fear of god in them now. good.
and haring that it took her hours to die in painful agony & the broken hyroid didn't kill her or end her pain quickly, but would have only contributed to it, must make them feel very very bad.
I wonder if they dusted the jar of mushrooms in RS's fridge for MK's prints. AK or RS may have taken it back to RS along with the knife??
Also there are apparently receipts for the bleach purchase. Has there been any word whether it was RS or AK that made the purchase??
puzzler | 12.02.07 - 7:58 am | #
? I should tink they would.
was it a jar of button mushrooms, or a plastic punnet?
You argue well bcpl, and your conclusions are sound.
The only possible "mitigating circumstance" that I can think of, is that RS is a total flake.
Pinecone??
AndyT | 12.02.07 - 6:03 am | #
yes I noticed in one picture after questioning i think, they blurred out what could have been a tissue in his hand, and his eyes were all red and puffy.
harry pot-head has been caught-out for his part in all this.
I wonder if the money Amanda has on her when she was arrested has been fingerprinted.
I would love to hear from the other two roommates.
Loz "if he used the alias 'AndyFinnemental'"
But does he use this alias?
Loz "if he used the alias 'AndyFinnemental'"
But does he use this alias?
AndyT | 12.02.07 - 9:46 am | #
online, from what i can judge, NO, AF is a real person from australia.
However, it is clear that Zachary had lots of web-chats with him on the subject of oil.
and also, they share the same interest in 'eco' or 'bio' living, in eating 'wild' plants to cook.
and did amanda say she carried a cooking knife with her, and used to 'forage' too?
what i am saying is, wha if he pretended his name was AF?
it's all far too tenuous. and perhaps jus a coincidence that RHG said or lied about the 'AF', an alternative real life in perugia AF may exist & be found. the only other thing that goes against it is RHG said the man was Italian.
would like to see if the author pops up in any photos with MK or AK or RS, or if he is mentioned in any diaries. or anything like that.
Have not fond any image of the author of 'Murder in Perugia' on the web.
also, seems very unlikely that he'd know that the house on that night would be the best opportunity for it, and that it coincided with the release date of the book (how could this be orchestrated or arranged).
seems much more likely the 3 in custody now were solely responsible.
I still can't let go of the greys anatomy text 'for me, meredith dies either tonight or tomorrow'.
what if he was just looking to do this around the approximate release date of the book?
but NAH I think it is all just highly unlikely, and that I am making the pieces fit around the theory, rather than the pieces themselves leading to a theory.
like, only pretended to new students once he had written the book & set about looking for a victim? unlikely I know.
but, an 80 page book. how long would that take to write?
did rhg know of the book, or ak. did they know the author. were chapters given out free around perugia prior to it's release, for publicity. sometimes this happens with books.
even if they did, how would they know about AF, maybe they googled it like me.
again, all very VERY unlikely.
but it was something interesting to chew over anyway...
NAH it's crazy, STUPID even. much more likely rhg was lying, and it's all a coincidence & reading FAR too much into it.
i bet AF doesn't even exist
This thing gets more nuts by the fricken minute...
Now we have an American author who wrote a book (that isn't even out yet, and wasn't due out until the day Meredith's body was found) and this book just so happens to be about a bar owner accused of murdering a British female Erasmus exchange student in Perugia?????
You have got to be fucking kidding me!??????
and then this same author closes out a web article with -AF?????
This is seriously one of the strangest cases I've ever followed.
At this point I'd ALMOST be willing to accept this all being some publicity stunt to sell a book and that those involved were paid to commit a crime paralleling the book.
Art imitating life or life imitating art.......
too strange for words...
"Shadow," anyone? Robert M.?
Just catching up with discussions here from last night. After reading through once, I went back a 2nd time and just read bpcl's postings as a thread of its own. IMHO, I helieve bpcl has laid out a clear eyed view of the evidence which points to involvement of all 3 of the suspectrs, and to their clumsy All 3 are witholding information and hoping desperately that the forensic evidence against them can be explained away.
I also want to thank you bpcl for not trying to speculate on what the exact scenario and/or thoughts of the perpetrators were that night, because, really at this point, it can only be specualtion.
Sorry--In the above, meant to say their clumsy attempts at couver up and alibis...
Better go have my morning coffee
Ok, this is what the book looks like (or would have looked like if it had been published). There appears to be a dagger and lots of blood.. or it could be a wedding cake with red icing...
http://cultura.blogosfere.it/200...a-
business.html
It would have been more Thomas Mann-ish to have called the book "Death in Perugia"
Loz, re this AF fingy, I still don't understand exactly. I mean it's clear to me that Zachary has a pal in Australia, whose initials are AF.
But are you suggesting that Zach also uses these initials? (Because his alias is AndyFinnemental?}
Clarification, please!
it looks like a mushroom skewered on a knife!
just kidding
A fountain overflowing with blood??
a2,
Thank you for your kind comments. To be perfectly honest, my thoughts are influenced by the likes of such great people here as Luke, RobertM, AndyT, Pinecone, dlw, chris, middie, Damian, yourself and the list goes on.
Together, all of us have been great with our comments, and together, we will all get to the truth of the matter, because ultimately, that is what each of us wants, that is what we share in common here.
If we did not have this place to come to, and for that I must thank Steve, we would be stuck in the maze of Police, Authorities, Juedges and Press reports. And for that i am grateful.
No semen was found in Meredith. I'm wondering if when Rudy was simulating {actually} raping her, he could'nt climax and lost his erection. He got frustrated & angry, hence the added violence and butchery.
"No semen was found in Meredith. I'm wondering if when Rudy was simulating {actually} raping her, he could'nt climax and lost his erection. He got frustrated & angry, hence the added violence and butchery."
It is believed by many profilers that a knife more often than not bares some sort of phallic symbolism in sexually motivated attacks; the knife being capable of penetration, when the penis is not.
That might be a bit Freudian, but it does make sense.
In this case, if the strangulation occurred first, their was NO reason for stabbing. I've been focused on lack of overkill, but I must admit, if the strangulation preceded the stabbing, that is overkill.
Is it a fact that no semen was found in Meredith, because I've been hearing otherwise for weeks.
Luke
The article said that there was no mention of semen. Which they find of significance.
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
and then this same author closes out a web article with -AF????? LUKE
--No luke, the editor made a note under an article the authour wrote, it's the editor of e-bulletin's initials. They share some of the sam interests.
what I think is that the money found on knox is VERY damning, if it was nt drawn out of her own account & if she already paid the landlord.
so, she's in on it. well, you know she is for definite. and RS.
what I am wondering is:
coincidence?
or AK & RS, and peraps RHG knew of the book, and knew its release date?
sorry, forgot a major point.
still, it does not explain RHG quoting meredith as saying her killer was A.F.
they wouldn't know that info?
this is because either the author has nothing to do with it, and AF exists or RHG is lying about the initials AF.
OR because, and this is the only way I can make it fit, the author who (to make my thory fit) was using the name A.F around knox, RS & RHG & MK having got the name from a guy he's been arguing over peak oil prices online for some years now.
now that seems an overstretch. I deffo think the australian AF exists, rather than being a constuct of the author. but, looking at the authors amazon, and some online writings & blogging & interviews by the AF guy, they share some sort of 'eco-warrier' things. Like 'wild cooking' and stuff.
and AK didn't she carry around a cooking knife in her bag once? for things she found?
someone in that night, one of these suspects at least. did they know of this book and the date of it's release, say through publicity?
you see though - it's still maybe too much of a coincidence that the days that the three suspects knew MK would be alone in the house ie: they had opportunity, also fell around the date of the release of the book.
The announcement about Rudy's YDNA, recovered from vaginal swabs, did not identify the source of the DNA as being semen. What they don't say is usually more important than what they do say. The location in which the DNA was found would lead one to understand that Meredith was sexually assaulted by Rudy in some way, not necessarily by penile penetration.
Ok, so now we have conflicting stories... We've been told for over a week that semen was found on a vaginal swab.
Was Rudy's DNA found on Meredith?
Has there been a mention that the rape could have been penetration by an object? (Which means any of the three, and ESPECIALLY Amanda, could have done the violating.)
So, dod Rudy just do it alone.
AK & RS had nothing to do with it, and AF was a lie???
Given that the leaked evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is all circumstancial and tenuous at best, I think we should consider the possibility that they are innocent. The only evidence we have is against Rudy.
A scenario: Rudy breaks into the house with a knife on him and begins to burgle it. Then he goes to the bathroom to relieve himself, and hears someone enter the house. He doesn't flush because he doesn't want to alert them to his presense. He quietly emerges from the bathroom and tries to sneak out, but Meredith sees him and starts freaking out, so he starts strangling her to shut her up and then does the rest of it. (I don't particularly want to rehash those details.)
Thoughts?
BD | 12.01.07 - 11:59 pm | #
very plausible.
who was the girl entering the house on cctv beforehand? amanda. did she let him in unwittingly, or not at all.
did he break into the down stairs window & AK or MK used the keys to open that bedroom door to him or for him. AH! to feed the cats or thinking it was a cat?
and AK was downstairs covering her ears & never phoned an ambulence? was she there?
and then ak just acts strange afterwards, and goes sexy lingerie shopping the day after?
she extended that to include a wild musing of WHAT could have happened, what was "possible" (as she said) to explain that pesky knife ending up in RS's kitchen (not to mention her flatmate being raped and murdered, ALL whilst AK was 'sleeping'). her emphasis and concern was not on RS per se, but on HER - SHE was sleeping, not involved, doesn't know, etc etc etc. a2
as she admited, she has 'contrasting ideas' about what might have happened that night
Good to see Loz that you're getting back on track.
[That AF business was taking you off on a tangent. For instance, I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that AK used to go off with a kitchen knife into the Umbrian forests looking for wild mushrooms and berries!!! In her ramblings, she describes carrying a knife in a N.European town, not a rural area.] (I think you may've been watching too much Coronation Street; true, AK would make a great character for that show.)
BD your razor sharp points. all good. but why didn't sh just stick to: I was at RSs house. even under pressure?
hmmm, maybe that shows she's not so cold? I don't know *shrugs*
don't you think that if rudy knew &was in phone contact with amanda, why would he break in.
and, if you believe it, he did break in why has amanda ended up with so much money in her pocket. did she just withdraw it on the day of arrest.
it's probably untrue. maybe rudy took all the rent money.
and instead of tricking his friends AK & RS to let him in, he decided to break in & surprised MK?
Way too much lying going on for INNOCENT people.
Even without the countless lies.
Who the Hell cleaned up the mess?
Why was Rafe's footprint found in blood, yet there was no DNA evidence on his shoe...oh, maybe because he soaked them in the BLEACH that he BOUGHT when he was supposedly (by his own account) still sleeping.
If they all aren't involved in some way, I will be beyond shocked.
BTW:
http://tinyurl.com/2o8y7b
"I have received letters from fellow inmates and admirers telling me that I am hot and they want to have sex with me. I have also had insulting letters."
Just another page for the sociopath scrapbook.
the person AF is an Austtralian guy, not Zach
I'm Italian and that book cover is astounding because some days before the release of the book there was an episode in Rome which resembled the image of the cover; a man coloured the water of the Fountain of Trevi with red paint. The man said it was a futurist declaration
the American author was also stunned by this coincidence
See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5...h?
v=5vx1rRDyYNI
BD,
Who then is responsible for the magnificent cleanup afterwards? You certainly cannot mean the drug pusher RG do you? Blood was found in the downstairs flat. Only AK had the key to it. Why you might ask? Because the boyfriend of Meredith gave it to MK so that she could watch his plants and feed the cats while he was visiting his parents.
bpcl | 12.02.07 - 2:13 am | #
it depends if it was in the same room as the broken window.
http://www.italymag.co.uk/2005/n...ber-of-murders/
The report found a steep rise in the number of foreigners killed in Italy, up 28% over 2003 and accounting for a fifth of all murders committed in 2004. The murder rate among the resident foreign population stands at 7.3 per 100,000 compared to 1 per 100,000 for Italian inhabitants, it said.
Looking in greater detail at domestic murders, the report said that women were the victims in 70% of cases and that 80% of such murders were committed by men. The study found that Fridays and the weekends were the most dangerous times of the week, with 116 murders committed on a Friday last year and 110 on a Sunday.
*********
I'm shocked that 20% of murder victims in Italy are foreigners!
Zachary Nowak strikes me as a bullshitter.
maybe they are not implicating rudy because they don't know him or know of him??
but then, why would 2 innocent people implicate each other.
or is it merely what we're doing here. the police said they find x,y,z and so they are trying to wrap their heads around it?
fran - vaguely know something about fountains running red. only, not sure from where in culture.
her comes google...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/
...2197110,00.html
-italy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/engla...don/
3101732.stm
trafalga square
seems like a 'futuristic vandals' kind of thing.
Their was likely some backandforth of knives & other things between appartments. I don't know if dried skin cells could account for both Amanda's $ Meredith's Dna on the same knife. Far fetched maybe.
DLW | 12.02.07 - 3:21 am | #
yes, about this. I have always wondered how RS didn't have clothes too bloody to walk the streets.
long coat?
AK did all the errands. clothes were important for PL, like how he managed to do the crime & get back to the bar, in fresh clothes etc.
as I have said on part 1, clothes will be important
part one of this thread, comment thingy, that we moved from to here
From AK's prison diary (and Luke's link
http://tinyurl.com/2o8y7b ) :
"I sing, write and, when I have an hour of outside time, I sit with my face in the sun, so I can get a tan."
AND
"I have received letters from fellow inmates and admirers telling me that I am hot and they want to have sex with me. I have also had insulting letters."
Gosh, she makes it so easy to DISLIKE her, which I know does not equate to "guilty of murder" but yikes, how self-involed can one person be?!?! Raise your hand if you think you would have been friends with Amanda another time/another place? Yep, that's what I thought.
in the words of my son:
Why she havta be like dat???
I'm just sayin'....
come to think of it though fran, it's fruitless because the artwork would have been done by someone else.
Raise your hand if you think you would have been friends with Amanda another time/another place?
I'm just sayin'....
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 3:59 pm
**
There is a good chance Amanda's diary is a total fabrication by press or police.
I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion.
I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 4:19 pm | #
Is THAT really necessary?
Side note: Some of Loz'a comments are reminding me of Francis Ford Coppola's film, The Conversation. Where what the protagonist thinks he sees and thinks he's heard shift around in inexplicable
ways. Perhaps a viewing of this film is a good look at the metaphor of the shape-shifters in this case.
Loz, yes, clothes are important especially to RS, the "clean freak," and to Amanda who see shopping as love, sex, and antidote to death.
It must have been a huge thing for him to loan AK underwear, and for him to know she didn't have any. I've thought that RS was deliberately clothed, probably with gloves, in a way that further protected him from leaving DNA evidence. Look at his Halloween costume. Plus, gloves and scrubs would be around if he does like them since daddykins is a doctor. The fantasy of *dress up* may be a factor too, with his interest in illustrated sex-violence comics. I wonder if they found any *human* sort of porn in his place or on the computer?
The first thing I thought when we heard of Amanda's shopping was---yes, the chick's impulsive...she's come into some money. Shopping soothes her. She wants mom to take her shopping and daddy is a Macy's retail executive. Shopping is big with her. People who love her buy her things, give her money. RS didn't take her shopping so she needed to get money to include him in her shopping thing, so thereby including him in the circle of love. It's not the undies, it's the shopping as a form of intimacy.
This little affair was a big, big thing for RS. A real live dirty nasty girl to Italy with Love from the Land of Grunge. (Courtney Love refers to herself as a *dirty girl*.)
I think his one relationship could be interpreted as a sign of stability and selectivity; shorter affairs and dating are excluded, and he recalls the serious girlfriend. And, he really needs his father's approval, so he may have been very cautious (and secretive) up until Amanda. However, this limited social experience set him up for a trollop with a wallop (!)
Recent studies I've read strike a note that rings true. Fewer, longer relationships are linked to happy and longer marriages. When I run that through my own set of friends, I think it's got a lot of truth to it.
Wouldn't we love to know more about what they found in RS's apt? In a way, he's more interesting than Amanda to me.
>fran - vaguely know something about fountains running red. only, not sure from where in culture<
Doing decorative things to town fountains goes back past Renaissance to medieval..mostly for celebrations. Wine in the fountains for weddings and miliary victories.
come to think of it though fran, it's fruitless because the artwork would have been done by someone else.
Loz | 12.02.07 - 4:12 pm |
Not necessarily--looks like a cheap ass photoshop job to me. I wish I could see the back jacket copy well enough to read, and to verify the publisher. He's trying to put himself into this. The smell of money.
He somehow volunteered his services to one of the the journalists as the expert on student life in Perugia to be quoted (and then the ever-reaching echo) on how *most students* are focused.
"Hi. I'm affiiated with the university in Perugia and the students and faculty are concerned about how they are being portrayed."
"Really? Tell me more."
He's intruding. I know these kinds from the world of public relations.
He published exactly ZIP; it appears there is some sort of reference to his publishing company that has not published anything? This is a vanity press. This guy's the joker. BUT he now has succeeded, and now for a moment he's part of it, so the opportunty has been manifested.
He's intruding. I know these kinds from the world of public relations.
He published exactly ZIP; it appears there is some sort of reference to his publishing company that has not published anything? This is a vanity press. This guy's the joker. BUT he now has succeeded, and now for a moment he's part of it, so the opportunty has been manifested.
xin | 12.02.07 - 4:40 pm | #
I agree with you on this, xin. Geeez ...and 80 pages ...how hard would that be???
Andy et al
my set them free post was sarcastic
don't forget the 'magic mop' from the cottage to clean the pipe leak in the boyfriend's flat. it has loads of DNA on it and we don't know about the analysis of the pipe plumbing they removed from the boyfriend's shower in his flat.
theses clowns will probably get off lightly seeing as the italians have a foreign black guy to pin it on.
and they will both make loads of money and new kinky friends.
ah justice!
.
rob | 12.02.07 - 6:30 am | #
never heard about this magic mop thing, lol!
Rhonda: I think we have evidence right here in this thread that there are several of us who could crank it out in a couple of hours. Then find some cheap ass bookcover, launch Photoshop for a little photo editing, drop in a couple same-sized copy blocks, knock off the UPC code from the other book, and VOILA! The book that can't be published!
FREE PARIS, I MEAN, FREE AMANDA
Funny, rob.
Laura,
Of course tha vandal was arrested and had nothing to do with the murder
The recent commentary about Rudy and penetration: If he had recently had sex (thinking Rudy-AK-RS-unknown couple partying at AK's and Meredith's house), he might not be up to speed, so to speak, in being able to complete a rape--is this where the differing stories about DNA lies? Vaginal swabs showing DNA, but not from semen?
And Loz, if I remember correctly, it was reported that Rudy's attorneys said that what Meredith breathed to Rudy was not "AF" but something similar. Too many stories there, too, that create conflicting scenarios.
xin: It must have been a huge thing for him to loan AK underwear, and for him to know she didn't have any======
ah so she HAD to go shopping for knickers because she didn't have any clothes????
OK hmmm
the point on clothes I am making is how was RS involved in the murder IF he obviously maybe had to walk home to change clothes from bloodied ones to clean ones.
and I don't think RS is that OCD, I have seen a 'scruffy' picture of him tbh, relaxed, not coming out of questioning or whatever.
either:
*he brought a change of clothes
* was only involed in the clean-up
* walked home with bloodied clothes un-noticed because of quiet streets or coat
* washed his clothes at the crime house, if the washer combines a dryer
http://tinyurl.com/3a4ak6
If AK is innocent, she wouldn't need to come up with new and different versions of what happened the night Meredith was murdered (. . . maybe RS put the knife in my hand while I was sleeping. . . .).
Has there been other confirmation about Rudy being caught in September trying to enter another property with a knife?
Not necessarily--looks like a cheap ass photoshop job to me. I wish I could see the back jacket copy well enough to read, and to verify the publisher. He's trying to put himself into this. The smell of money.
He somehow volunteered his services to one of the the journalists as the expert on student life in Perugia to be quoted (and then the ever-reaching echo) on how *most students* are focused.
"Hi. I'm affiiated with the university in Perugia and the students and faculty are concerned about how they are being portrayed."
"Really? Tell me more."
He's intruding. I know these kinds from the world of public relations.
He published exactly ZIP; it appears there is some sort of reference to his publishing company that has not published anything? This is a vanity press. This guy's the joker. BUT he now has succeeded, and now for a moment he's part of it, so the opportunty has been manifested.
xin | 12.02.07 - 4:40 pm | #
thank you for explaining. so a creep basically.
and his comment on publishing it 'maybe after christmas' on the blog.
was just a cruel joke too I guess, to give publicity, but cruel cos...
It also emerged yesterday that another suspect, 20-year-old Rudy Hermann Guede, had been caught breaking and entering a Perugia property in September, armed with a knife.
http://tinyurl.com/334dak
News? London Evening Standard.
I wonder if it's hit Amanda that she's stuck in jail for at least 60 more days, best scenario.
That means no holiday parties and stuck in a cell with fellow sex crime suspects (and perhaps a cop).
NO FUN!
Maybe I'l send her a Christmas card.
Foxy Knoxy
Capanne Prison
Perugia Italy
should be enough.
Buon Natale, Angelface.
Pinecone said:
"I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion."
Ouch.
pinecone is just trying to get to the truth.
perhaps things have been getting 'personal' and they needn't.
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
Commentators, perhaps? For the next time.
lol belle
You Go Pinecone!...spelling cops....look out!
OK, so I've read in several newspapers (maybe none of them newsworthy) - that the police are STILL looking for Knox's sweatshirt which she was wearing on the day of the murder - and which mysteriously went 'missing' and has never been since. The police assumed it was too blood-stained for her to keep hold of. Does anyone know if this is a 'fact', or rumour/fact?? Unless Knox makes a habit of regularly mislaying her sweatshirts - why would she have got rid of it, unless she knew it would implicate her?
xin said:
"Wouldn't we love to know more about what they found in RS's apt? In a way, he's more interesting than Amanda to me."
I'm getting more convinced that Rafe is somewhere on the autism spectrum.
Some things that point that way IMHO:
-limited experiences with the opposite sex at age 24
-fastidious about cleanliness
-self-described pursuit of "extreme experiences"
If Rafe IS on the spectrum, chances are that even if he has a genius IQ - which is certainly possible, lots of folks with ASD do - he wouldn't be able to come up with many fabrications to weave into an explanation of that night. He would be more likely to tell it like it is. Many folks with autism are often brutally honest.
Just saying'...
Xin, your comment at 4:27 about RS/AK's relationship is right on in my opinion. He's involved but until I hear definitively that he wasn't at the computer, I'm inclined to see him as more of a dupe than a premeditating thrill-killer. The shoe & print could well have been left during the clean-up. Not answering a parents phone call/email when you're stoned isn't so unusual and the next day other priorities got in the way. I'll sure be glad when the computer issue is resolved.
Nana..
I think Rudy assaulted Meredith with a finger and left behind an epithelial cell. If he'd recently had intimate contact with another person, he could have easily transferred that person's DNA also.
I think the sexual assault was done after Meredith's death because she'd been wearing jeans and there was (reportedly) no blood on her legs.
Many folks with autism are often brutally honest.
Just saying'...
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 5:54 pm | #
could you point out just where you feel he's been brutally honest???
If Meredith's death was accidental and Amanda was even partially responsible, you would think she would have been eaten alive by her "conscience" by now.
Guess she's been to busy eating cotton candy and riding the teacups to be bothered by a conscience....
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
belle | 12.02.07 - 5:49 pm
I'm not English.
Rhonda said:
"could you point out just where you feel he's been brutally honest???"
Sorry I gave the mistaken impression I thought Rafe was being brutally honest. I don't. I was just observing that IF Rafe were acting as a person with autism, which I think he just might be, he would likely find it difficult to lie, so perhaps the little we are hearing from him IS the truth. I realize he has changed his story once, but that was early on. Since then it has a been consistent.
could the rudy dna thing be red herring. to try and get him to confess to sexually assaulting her? somehow?
Like, maybe he wore a condom, and they IDd him from a bloodied fingerprint & possibly hair?
unlikely I know.
If he's got a blood fettish & was playing around with the blood from her wound, and she was in menses, and the epithlial(s) were found in meredith. Maybe it is because he was also fascinated with her menses blood?
-- sorry for the graphicness of this^^ ---
anyway, I don't like the shard theory, as why would he carry a shard of glass from the brokn window, or elsewhere, when he had a knife (if indeed this is behaviour as detailed in the fact(?) that he was arrested for breaking & entering with a knife?
soozie UK - her sweatshirt. YES clothes will be important. how did they know she had one, and if she had one why is it missing. this is potentially significant. As she has had plenty of other 'reportedly' incriminating evidence which she was not so clever to dispose of: merediths money & that knife. I guess she'll muse in her blog/prison diary that RS stole it to implicate her.
---does anyone else suspect that AK & RS don't know rhg has been arrested? and maybe even don't know who he is? or are they incriminating each other, just because of evidence linked to each other, ie the knife? OR that they do know of him & comment(ed) on him but this is not reported?---
I'm not English.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 6:03 pm | #
pinecone - if you just ignore any personal attacks like that one & don't make any yourself, they will just go away
http://web20.excite.it/foto/2861...s_Live_Spaces/
3 Its hard to tell,but my guess is, this isn't Amanda.......SO could this be poor Raffaeles only other female,that this poor boy had in his life...Not hardly I bet
I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 4:19 pm | #
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
belle | 12.02.07 - 5:49 pm
I'm not English.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 6:03 pm |
No biggie, I was just having a laugh and you got to learn something too. Another jewel from me to you:
Not being gregarious and needing to acquire friends doesn't HAVE to go hand in hand with directly insulting and pushing people away.
Even if I didn't like your theory I wouldn't have opened that door, but you sent out invitations so...
"I have received letters from fellow inmates and admirers telling me that I am hot and they want to have sex with me. I have also had insulting letters."
--That Amanda Knox doesn't consider letters that say she is hot and they want to have sex with her as an insult--says a lot to me about her. She is in jail, a girl has been murdered, and she doesn't find it an insult that people just care about how hot she is and that they would want to have sex with her!!!!
LOz-- There were statements by RS camp when Rudy was first in the picture with quotes from RS saying he has no idea who Rudy is. None.
I'm getting more convinced that Rafe is somewhere on the autism spectrum.
Some things that point that way IMHO:
-limited experiences with the opposite sex at age 24 unattractive to opposite sex, cos he is a geek? cos he is weedy? cos he hasn't got good conversation. Amazed the 'IT girl' AK got with him tbh. then again, in her partying piccies from back home, the men she hung out with, just judging from piccies & being totally shallow here, seem like geeks to me too. Not geeks as in a narrow interest(s), ordumb. But geeks as in the polar opposite of 'jocks'. same for that Home vid too, all the geeky boys looking on in horror at drama queen amanda trying to act cool. seeming awkward in her presence, the one next to her anyhow was not used to 'living it up'. that was hard to watch, with that guy scalding in the background. she was cool in her 'pond' at home. but not necessarily recognisable as 'cool' to an outsider of that group
-fastidious about cleanliness not so sure about this either. seen a relaxed picture of him, (driving a top-down sports car w/ sunglasses on) looking unshaven. it's only recently maybe that he's smartened up his appearance. although I know autism doesn't come down to or necessarily affect that. and the manga comics & computers SCREAM some sort of autistic/aspergers thing about him
-self-described pursuit of "extreme experiences" ??
http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/2...lm-part-
ii.html
Steve Huff said:
"Commenters, or ‘blogmenters,’ if you will, are practically breaking news in this case"
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
belle | 12.02.07 - 5:49 pm
>http://web20.excite.it/foto/2861...s_Live_Spaces/ 3 Its hard to tell,but my guess is, this isn't Amanda.......SO could this be poor Raffaeles only other female,that this poor boy had in his life...Not hardly I bet
meman2<
Thanks for digging that one up, Meman. He looks so happy in that picture, really happy, and it occurs that he doesn't look happy in any of the others I've seen--not that I've seen him in the happiest phase of his life.
(I wonder when his mom died)
Just to chime in, and I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience with these issues, I don't think RS is on autism spectrum, to represent the oppositional types among us. Not by a long shot.
you know, it strikes me, is his arrest being kept a secret from them, for the good f the investigation?
couldn't imagine so. BUT he is in germany, away from tht prison & hearing.
they know each other are arrested, but what of RHG?
http://www.wordreference.com/def...tion/
commenters
Heads up-
This is going to be an off-topic, not-furthering-the-discussion comment, so SKIP THIS if you don't want to read my ramblings, but wanted to share it as it illustrates the sometimes brutal honesty of folks with autism:
one of my dear friends on the spectrum sees people as celebrities or famous characters they resemble. I believe it helps her remember their faces. She often blurts out who folks look like upon first meeting them, and it ain't always flattering. For me, she has long said I look like John Denver and Prairie Dawn, the Sesame Street Mumpets character.
For the record, I am neither male, not a puppet, but y'know, I CAN see a resemblance now that you mention it!
I don't know about the autism thing. Not attractive to the opposite sex.... hmmm, not true for this one. Of course, that's just based on appearance without the knowledge of his character.
It seems to me he is just as complicit in this as the others but has the advantage of Daddy, with all his money and connections. Because of that hand, he may be able to construct a better defense for himself.
White man in his native country with connections in the system = better prepared than the other two.
xin said:
"Just to chime in, and I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience with these issues, I don't think RS is on autism spectrum, to represent the oppositional types among us. Not by a long shot."
You may be right.
Although with your knowledge and experience, do you really think it's a long shot to make a connection? Do you see how Rafe's comment about seeking "extreme experiences" would fit for some folks on the spectrum?
I don't know about the autism thing. Not attractive to the opposite sex.... hmmm, not true for this one. Of course, that's just based on appearance without the knowledge of his character.
It seems to me he is just as complicit in this as the others but has the advantage of Daddy, with all his money and connections. Because of that hand, he may be able to construct a better defense for himself.
White man in his native country with connections in the system = better prepared than the other two.
belle | 12.02.07 - 6:35 pm | #
agreed that this is a lot more likely!
especially when i read (paraphrased) "his brutal honesty. he changed is story once, but since then he's been consistent"
the cynic inside me thought "lawyers".
Loz-
Exactly!
RS and AK are completely aware of what is happening with Rudy!!!
http://news.independent.co.uk/
eu...icle3182307.ece
Yesterday Raffaele Sollecito, boyfriend of Amanda Knox, Ms Kercher's flatmate, denied all knowledge of Mr Guede. But it emerged that Ms Knox in testimony to the police before her arrest had mentioned Mr Guede as one of a number of people who had visited her flat in the past.
I remember another story where RS was quoted specifically, will look for it too.
chris - that's a change for you, as you didn't think RS had mentioned RHG, or knowing him, ever.
so they DO know. why aren't they just saying, it's him, we were together at RS that night, and the forensics don't necessarily stand.
ile must have something on them, apart from their changing stories. that maybe we don't know about.
well actually, the knife is very incriminating imho. or defnitely is cause for a judge not to be satisfied of their total innocence, ven if it doesn't mean thir total involvement
LOZ-- Not a change for me at all.
RS said in response to Rudy as a suspect, that he never even heard of RUdy, did not know the guy. RS was only aware of him from the T.V. news and his lawyers. I am simply saying that RS says that he doesn't know, never knew of RUDY.
On the other hand, there are supposidley phone calls to and from RUDY and AK before and after the murder.
My theory is and still is that AK and RUDY got toghether without RS. Maybe RS in clean-up, but RS did not know he was cleaning up after a murder. The door was locked in Meredith room, so he would not see.
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 6:29 pm
am i correct in guessing that you are from the midwest?
Of course RS is a geek. But we don't have something like a geek concept in Italian culture.
I wouldn't say he is an autistic person. Maybe somebody from Italy would say just the contrary, but, imho, it is not rare that University student haven't got a so to say "fulfilling" sex experience in the first two years of studies.
from:
http://tinyurl.com/26yc6q
OR
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.co...onyone-
hes.html
Raffaele's dad: "... he's a marvelous boy".
From "Marvelous boy" blog: "many people from my college have honored themselves, but my favorite is the monster of Foligno" (the serial killer of kids)*. Oh, daddy's boy...
Il padre di Raffaele: "... è un ragazzo meraviglioso".
Dal blog del "ragazzo meraviglioso" "Molti si sono fatti onore nel mio collegio, ma quello che stimo di più è il mostro di Foligno"*. Che caro figlioletto...
****
Thanks to our friend here who told us about "Perugia-Shock" blog. Very interesting.
Has anyone here read Raffaele's blogs? Please tell us more about what they contain.
chris said to TruCryme:
"am i correct in guessing that you are from the midwest?"
LOL - Nope, you are not correct. Is your guess because of that vivid description my austistic friend gave me?? Do folks from the midwest tend to look like John Denver and Prairie Dawn?? LOL
BTW - I agree with your thinking that AK and Rudy acted perhaps without the knowledge of Rafe. Something about Rafe rings true for me. Or maybe I'm biased because I think he's autistic and I know how misunderstood ASD folks often are.
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 7:33 pm |
John Denver is from the midwest, Don't know what prarie dawn looks like, but the word prarie, is usually southern, west or midwest.
On another note, I do not think that RS is autistic, just too sheltered.
haha
yes the big a looks like the illegit daughter of Les and Cilla off Corrie!!!
she is ginger after all not blonde!!
haha
watch out people Pinecone is acting an awful lot like coyotewaits, that charming sock puppet from the previous blog.
the DNA on the 'magic mop' is very damning - if the reports are true of course.
and finally i dont think the italian prosecution had to disclose all its evidence at the hearing of the application by the defense to alter bail conditions. the prosecution only had to show enough evidence to cast the defendants as likely to flee and reasonably suspected.
their ever changing stories and the fact that they are outsiders to the jurisdiction with no family ties in perugia and who own no property or lease there makes them LIKELY TO FLEE.
dipso facto : locked down tight till this shit gets sorted out.
.
So, this might not yield a lot of material.
BUT let's look at some consistencies between the suspects statments, that is when you compare them.
RS: he says he doesn't know who RHG is.
RHG: May have cited RS as the murderer, but claims he is a stranger, just an Italian man with brown hair.
1) they claim not to know each other personally.
--------end---------
I guess, as terrible as it is. I am also believing more in the necrophilia theory that RHG may have done, or else as she was helpless.
Since, it seems she put up a big fight. Too much of a fight for only 1 person to be capable? and what of the three different sizes/types of cuts.
you don't suppose RHG, if he did it all alone, could have seen her downstairs, and forced her upstairs, threatening with a piece of glass?
In that scenario though, the rape and murder seem primary motives. not money at all. And, he'd have to get the info some how or lay in wait, to know mredith was there alone, and even that he'd have time to carry out the attack uninterrupted by other HMs.
---------
AKs missing jumper, and why she left other incriminating evidence laying around. perhaps, yes, actually it is plasible that this was too blood-soaked or had beach spots on it & thought it would be telling-although wouldn't it take strong bleach?perhaps she just didn't think of the other evidence, forgot about it, or thought it would be found. so actually yes, the fact it is missing could be significant.
LOZ-- Not a change for me at all.
RS said in response to Rudy as a suspect, that he never even heard of RUdy, did not know the guy. RS was only aware of him from the T.V. news and his lawyers. I am simply saying that RS says that he doesn't know, never knew of RUDY.
On the other hand, there are supposidley phone calls to and from RUDY and AK before and after the murder.
My theory is and still is that AK and RUDY got toghether without RS. Maybe RS in clean-up, but RS did not know he was cleaning up after a murder. The door was locked in Meredith room, so he would not see.
chris | 12.02.07 - 7:20 pm | #
ah sorry. yes, it could explain the bathroom blood, maybe even AK said to RS it's only menses blood BUT why wouldn't he be compelled to clean that. unless he missed it? what would he think he was cleaning up after?
what of the footprint though.
if he only knew after the crime appened, what happened, maybe AK said to him she had got into an argument with MK and didn't mean it. but if he went into hr room, what would he make of the strewn clothes, you know. Why didn't he compel AK to call an ambulence?
I must admit, I don't get it.
Of course RS is a geek. But we don't have something like a geek concept in Italian culture.
I wouldn't say he is an autistic person. Maybe somebody from Italy would say just the contrary, but, imho, it is not rare that University student haven't got a so to say "fulfilling" sex experience in the first two years of studies.
fran | 12.02.07 - 7:30 pm | #
could it just be he was a late starter, and/or his first girlfriend was a long-term thing? and this accounts for the low number?
I am not saying that RS knew after the murder, what happened, and then helped with the clean up.
I think RS IF he did at all help with the clean up, did not know that he was cleaning up a murder scene. The door was looked to the scene of the crime, he did not see MK's room with her dead body.
Also, I am not trusting that the shoe print is his at this point.
meant to say Locked, not looked
The door was Locked to the scene of the crime, he did not see MK's room with her dead body.
do you really think it's a long shot to make a connection? Do you see how Rafe's comment about seeking "extreme experiences" would fit for some folks on the spectrum?
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 6:42 pm | #
First, I think it is important to take a look at these behavorial and learning possibilities, so the discussion is a good way to think about RS and his personality.
Not an expert, nor pretending to be, but from my experience and observation--
People on the autism arc, particularly those who succeed like perhaps a Bill Gates (some similarities to those with Asperger's Syndrome) or an Andy Warhol, to mention two individuals who are known to the public, have obvious quirks in their socialization and attitudes toward others that I don't see with RS. With Gates, it's the rocking back and forth, for example, in a chair ("perseveration"--I have seen him do this), his legendary poor grooming and social skills before running into Melinda French (whom he married, although he did have a girlfriend prior--the joke in Silicon Valley was that Melinda taught him about toothbrushes and deodorant) or a callous disregard for the emotional impact he has on others (Andy Warhol, and Edie Sedgwick, for example, my comment based on _Edie_ the book, not _Factory Girl_, the film).
Andy and Bill are both exceptionally creative in the sense of being out-of-the-box thinkers, which may account for their success, and thus, socialization. I think a person on the functioning end of the autism arc has trouble with imagination--they cannot play dress-up, for example, or impulsively *pretend to be a frog*.
If this person were able to organize themselves enough to have a blog (Andy had *Interview* magazine, but never did any of the work (original thinking and writing, rather than plagariam is a problem--in fact, look at Andy's art...he was an illustrator drawing shoes at first, then he move to Campbell's soup cans, and the rest is history), that person would be more specific, and would probably not know what to volunteer or not, the commentary would be less politically correct:
I like to kill cats.
Someday I want to see someone be murdered.
They are much less social (Andy traveled in a pack, so he had a buffer; so did Bill after coming up with a hot business idea), and the idea of meeting someone at a concert, and pursuing that interest would be pretty far-fetched. Both Andy and Bill had/have strong relationships with their families. We don't however have any/much evidence of RS having many social relationships which MAY infer a learning, personality thing slightly related to an autism arc person. More probably, he's shy, and a bit withdrawn having lost his mom before becoming an adult, and being a focused, responsbile student. (Bill dropped out of Harvard in one year, and Andy graduated from Carnegie Mellon.) It's OK to be shy and a bit reserved, however,once AK enters the picture, he has apartner, a lover, who encourages him to adjust his bound
aries. Had he not run into Amanda he very well may have lived a relatively quiet and normal life, with close family relationships, like his parents.
PS. Frankly, although he's been too chatty in the past, I like the way RS's dad LOVES him. We aren't hearing these sorts of defensive, affectionate comments from Amanda's two moms and two dads.
Daddy S may be a bit over-protective, but he's dealing with the situation rather normally--a loving parent defends him and then brings all his resources to help. He KNOWS (no matter what) that his son is not a natural born killer.
I had thought Rudy was drug dealer to both Rafe and Amanda, but I guess not. I'd love to know what Amanda told Rudy to get him over there on cleanup patrol.
xin- Thank you for your articulate explanation of your thoughts re:Rafe being on the autism spectrum.
Interesting - I had not ever heard mention of Andy Warhol perhaps being ASD. I'll have to read about that more. Bill Gates - of course. He jumps on a trampoline too! But I think that and rocking are not really "perservation" as such. Both those activities are ways to calm OR stimulate an over-active OR under-active sensory system, which is where the need for "extreme experiences" might fit it. ASD folks commonly have sensory system dysfuntion, and thus have a need to rev it up or calm it down to get back to a feeling of normal.
Perservation, though some folks use this term to describe autistic actions, is more accurately used in regards to thoughts and words, IMHO.
xin said:
"I think a person on the functioning end of the autism arc has trouble with imagination--they cannot play dress-up, for example, or impulsively *pretend to be a frog*."
This is exactly why I think it would be hard for Rafe to make this stuff up, if he is indeed autistic, which seems to be the opinion of only lonely me.
You seem to imply that most ASD folks would not be organized enough to write a blog. I disagree (and conversely apologize if I inferred that incorrectly from what you wrote). I know many ASD folks(and Asperger's is an ASD)who are amazing writers. Being able to WRITE ones' thoughts is often easier than speaking them out loud to another person. Isn't that something all of us commenters here have in common?
Being able to WRITE ones' thoughts is often easier than speaking them out loud to another person. Isn't that something all of us commenters here have in common?
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 9:55 pm
******
I suppose you've read Daniel Tammet's
book and blog?
>I know many ASD folks(and Asperger's is an ASD)who are amazing writers.<
Many? How many? (not literally) I know of Temple Grandin and there's the music critic guy...but my impression is that it is RARE, and none of the people I am personally aware of are able to write out a narrative of more than two sentences. This is pretty typical according to stuff I've read (major university research centers) and observed.
At any rate, I do not see any signs of any affect on the autism arc with regard to RS.
@ Belle: stop being so narky. Also, you're fighting a losing battle. Here's what a *real* dictionary says (The Oxford English Dictinary, full edition):
commenter, -or
1. One who comments; a commentator.
(you need a subscription to access this, which is why I haven't given a URL).
oooohhhhh.....squiggs...i'm jealous...and impressed...full edition OED..
best
Thanks Squiggle.......narkey..it just may fit
Pinecone said:
"I suppose you've read Daniel Tammet's
book and blog?"
No, I haven't, and thanks for pointing me to him! I am always interested in reading what those living with autism write to give us a glimpse inside.
Others who are published come to mind: Donna Williams, Dawn Prince-Huges, Gunilla Gerland, Liane Holliday Willey, Jerry Newport, Stephen Shore. And my experience has been that on message and comment boards specifically set-up for folks with ASD across the internet, there are tons of very well-written people.
Rare? I don't know. I just haven't found the ability to write well to be unusual for higher-functioning folks on the autism spectrum. I wouldn't consider it a savant-type gift, would you?
This is no doubt gotten way off-topic - I apologize for adding to bend in this road.
..and to all a g'night!
HA! I think the ability to write well is unusual, period.
THANKS Jessica.
Interesting: CIA
Again, Amanda: YOU ARE FUCKED.
Obviously another scam on an unsuspecting and grieving community of crime followers had been avoided in Italy, UK, USA, and other countries not including Portugal.
Jessica | 12.02.07 - 11:04 pm
Very funny, Jessica. I expect your article will appear in the Evening Standard tomorrow. I got some laughs from it.
LOL Thanks for that, Jessica - hey, are you "on the spectrum" ?
not funny
Chris
I have to think that RS was well aware that the cleanup was for murder.
Otherwise, why the bleach? What else would have impelled him to help clean a site so thoroughly? If he wasn't attempting to hide a murder, why would he have bleached-cleaned his own apt., which was far from the crime scene?
What did he think he was covering up?
Jessica............................Can you post the link?
Just kidding people
I went back through old articles to make a timeline. Here it is. While I was at it, I cut-and-pasted other things that caught my eye.
1PM Amanda saw Meredith at their apartment
3-4 Meredith left
5 Amanda and Rafe went to his apartment (as per Amanda)
6PM Rafe and Amanda left her apartment (as per Rafe)
“He was with Knox Amanda until 1800 when they had both left the apartment to go into the centre, around 2030 to 2100”
Rafe went home, smoked; had dinner
8:30 text message from Patrick
8:30 – 9 “Knox left him, saying to him that she would go to the pub Le Chic to meet friends while he returned to his house”
“Then left the house telling Sollecito that she was going to work, while, on the contrary, she was at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana.”
9PM “It was more or less at this time that either Sollecito or Knox turned off their mobile phones, which became active again the following morning.”
“All three [includes Patrick] suspects have a gap in cell phone use for two hours around the time Kercher was raped and killed, according to the judge's order. Lumumba changed his cell phone number the day after the murder.”
9pm – Amanda claimed to meet Patrick at bball courts and go back to her house
8:43 Amanda (?) seen on security camera entering her house
9PM Meredith left friend’s house
10:30 “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost knocked over by a black man running away from the scene”
11PM Rafe’s father called
11-1 Rafe on internet
1PM Amanda home
8:30AM Bleach receipt (this day?)
9:15AM Bleach receipt (this day)
10AM (as per Rafe) Woke up at Rafe’s in morning
10:30 (as per Rafe) Amanda went back to her house to wash; took empty plastic bag
11AM (as per Amanda) she was back at her house
11:30 (as per Rafe) Amanda back at Rafe’s house; worried—her door open
Went back to Amanda’s together
Amanda opened door w/keys; went in together. Blood in bathroom.
? – Amanda and Rafe buy newspaper (?)
12:35 postal police arrive; hear washing machine cycling off
12:54 Rafe calls police
1PM housemate Romanelli arrived
Police are still looking for extra witnesses. Two have reported seeing Ms Knox at a launderette washing clothes and a pair of trainers after the murder.
But they are thought to be trying to trace a man seen picking a discarded bundle of clothes out of a bin outside the University for Foreigners, where Knox and Miss Kercher were studying, then washing them in a nearby launderette. It is though the clothes may have been dumped by one of the killers.
Sollecito's lawyer said he was at home when Miss Kercher died. But police say he and Knox later broke a window at the hillside home she and Miss Kercher shared with two young Italian women, then ransacked it to make it appear there had been a break-in.
Bruises and cuts suggested that her killer had gripped her throat with his right hand while using a penknife or Swiss Army knife to cut her throat with his left hand.
traces of blo
jessica has been reported to steve huff.
CONTINUED
traces of blood had been found not only in the cottage, which she shared with three housemates, but also in another cottage on the hillside below them, rented by four Italian students from the Le Marche region. Reports said that the killer appeared to have cleaned himself up after the bloody murder not only at Ms Kercher’s house but also in the one below, to which he evidently had a key, since there was no sign of a break-in.
Meredith’s mobile phone was found discarded in a neighbouring garden. It was covered in fingerprints
Mrs Lana Elisabetta had found on the lawn of the garden attached to her house, in Perugia, Via Sperandio 5b, two mobile phones of which one had the sim card of Vodafone 348 467 3711, belonging to the same Romanelli.
From the first medical examination of the corpse by the pathologist, Dr Luca Lalli, it has been established that the death occurred at 11pm at the earliest and at the latest one hour after with the scope of a time frame between 10pm and midnight on the day 1 November 2007.
Phone records examined by police show intense mobile phone traffic between Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito after the murder. In one intercepted phone call Ms Knox told her boyfriend: "I cant do this any more."
Police are also said to be investigating the fact that a mop and a bucket are missing from the cottage that Meredith and Amanda shared with two Italian girls.
Knox’s lawyer, Luciano Ghirga, said he hoped Knox’s family would "persuade her to tell the truth".
Knox's attorney, Luciano Ghirga, acknowledged Friday that his client has "a confused version of events. But with the help of her lawyers and her parents, maybe she'll remember better," Ghirga told the P-I in his Perugia city center office
excellent BeenHere, thank you, i'll find the other, less detailed one created by Andy T for merging info, and then carrying forward to change and expand as we learn..
jessica: i suggest you email steve to have your little piece of crap removed. serious people come here for information. there are other boards that will really dig your sort of humor.
Phone records examined by police show intense mobile phone traffic between Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito after the murder. In one intercepted phone call Ms Knox told her boyfriend: "I cant do this any more." BeenHereAllAlong | 12.03.07 - 12:00 am | And I think, this is what most of the posters here, may not have worked into their theorys
One correction--"1AM Amanda home" means at Rafe's home.
xin......there was, and is no harm done,from Jessica's post........please dont be a narkey too
OK__
here's Andy's timeline:
Here's my revised timeline:
8.45 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X arrive at house.
8.50 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir fry them.
9.00 The five have snack of garlic mushrooms and mozarella cheese.
9.15 MK arrives, and tastes the mushrooms.
9.30 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X begin party in AK's room.
9.45 MK tells partypoopers to turn the music down (she's real tired after Halloween party the night before).
10.00 AK tells RHG, who's watching the foursome and looking a bit bored to "go get MK."
10.05 RHG enters MK's room.
10.07 MK tells RHG to leave. He takes her cellphones and goes back to AK's room.
10.10 AK, RS, Mr X, Ms X accompany RHG to MK's room and force her to do some things.
10.30 Third final stab.
10.31 RHG rushes out of house (MK's cellphones are still in his pocket, so he dumps them nearby).
10.32 Foursome leave victim's room, locking the door behind them.
10.30 - 11.00 AK, RS, Mr X and Ms X listen to MK's screams, until she goes quiet.
11.30 They return to room, and move body.
11.45 - 02.00 Clean up.
02.00 Horlicks and toast.
02.30 Buona notte a tutti
AndyT | 11.29.07 - 6:27 pm |
##
I'll get these two timelines onto Word and see how they mesh
x
>xin......there was, and is no harm done,from Jessica's post........please dont be a narkey too
meman2 | 12.03.07 - 12:14 am
-------
I don't know what *narky* means, but we disagree. This is irresponsible and exactly the way rumors get started. I hope he pulls her fucking plug.
THIS IS ABOUT THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER AND THAT IS THAT.
xin....it is....thats why we are all here....But ..its all about speculation..Isn't that what its about?...Amandas mental state has been diagnosed to a tee on Steve's blog ....or has it?......This is what its all about.....
xin, xin I think she's up to the neck of her (alleged) missing pullover in this, but YOU are passionate! (& so has been/is rob) And as this will in effect be a bench-trial, in American parlance, where a judge(s) is by law privy to more contextual information than can be presented to a jury [usually previous patterns of behavior plus evidence--bcpl's point about interpreting any & all statements], the likelihood of a conviction for involuntary manslaughter is high. But for M2 (which is really, we did so & so and it hurt her and oops she died)? Having chosen to argue Pinecone's brief for her in a particular way, I do presently see the case against A & R as being more circumstanial than it seemed with all the "leaks". As in, she's placed herself at the house and certain leaks that I accept confirm that. But none of it places her in Meredith's room and directly involved. And I suspect that the micro-analysis of the shoe print will be very disputable on Rafe's behalf.
The pattern of ILE behavior itself over the past two weeks, right from the jump-start arrests, has to me demonstrated they are less than secure in the physical evidence tieing A & R to the specifics of the crime, especially now that they have Rudy who HAS said he was there when Meredith was alive and there's physical evidence supporting his presence. Rome's SCU is involved because Perugia hasn't made sense to iteself of all the info it has, and likely certain things have still not been investigated thoroughly (like A & R & Rudy's own bank accounts or the RSCU agent wouldn't have speculated about Amanda's having 200 euros on her at arrest). Oh, I think Amanda is certainly screwed in some way, but thoroughly fucked?
All I'm going to predict is that this story will have more twists yet to come.
A Note to Loz could ya, when replying/commenting on a previous post, tighten up any quotation? Reproducing the whole will make this thread much much longer too too soon. Thanks
LOZ!! did you link to us & these comments, re the supposed 80 page book, from the mirror.co.uk's web forum by starting a new post called "Meredith Kercher 'Murder in Perugia Book' Links to 'AF'" ????? It reads like your style. But the links are suggesting us as a source, and you know we aren't that?
And, in general, would some one really clear this up for me becasue its way too late on the US east coast. Is the STORY about this book story fact or fiction, that is, even if a vanity press, was it indeed & truly prescheduled? That is, does it actually exist? Either DM or DT seemed to think so, though I'm not sure even about that.
"narky" is an adjective, not a noun. From the aforementioned OED:
narky, a.
Chiefly Brit. regional and Austral. slang.
Irritable, bad-tempered; sarcastic, disparaging.
Why didnt Patrick mention he fired Amanda in the beginning? It wasnt known that he fired her until after his release in an interview. Why didnt he mention this earlier? He may be innocent but there are many things that have to be explained.
"Patrick Lumumba, has vented his fury at Ms Knox. In a statement to Italian papers released by his lawyers, he said: "I asked myself, why has Amanda done this to me? I helped that girl find work. I don't think I'll ever forgive her."
He went on: "The lawyers say that in her first interview, Amanda didn't mention me at all.
"So something occurred to me – the day before we were arrested, on November 5, I ran into her outside the university for foreign students. I was talking to a lecturer, who asked me whether I knew anyone who spoke good English and Italian to deal with all the media inquiries about Meredith's death. At that moment Amanda arrived and I suggested her. She said no, and went away smiling. Perhaps at that moment she decided to involve me."
nov 25th interview-
It was at that moment that the club's owner, Patrick Lumumba, finally realised he'd had enough and told the brash blonde American he wouldn't be requiring her services any more.
"She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge,"
In his statement to Italian papers released by his lawyers while he was in jail, why did he leave out the fact that he fired her? Thats a BIG thing to leave out. Why wouldnt he think when he fired her , ThaT would be when she turned on him, as opposed to when he tried to get her work. This makes no sense
Can I just ask. Do both RS & AK each claim never to have seen the knife found at RS's place before?
Two have reported seeing Ms Knox at a launderette washing clothes and a pair of trainers after the murder.
BeenHereAllAlong | 12.02.07 - 11:59 pm
NO NO NO NO
it was not the big a or even a foreign woman that was reported.
Robert M.
i am passionate about posters spewing their 'version' of what they half-read/half-remember. it really is detrimental to posters on this forum being able to read from the same hymn sheet and get to the end.
i am passionately offended by the big a fingering an innocent man and that posters think this is ok, 'poor girl'.
the unraveling of the occult (concealed and other) nature of this case will be the telling aspect of the ongoing investigation and trial. i don't think the criminal mind profilers that play a part will be as important.
.
holymon
patrick said he was afraid of upsetting the big a and having her bad mouth him and the pub to all the students.
it would damage his business. i suggested he even said he would offer her work on a casual basis, that's why he said in his text the pub was slow so no work.
this has been dealt with in the previous blog.
i have downloaded it and saved it to my disk for reference and quicker loading, it helps to prevent confusion.
.
BeenHereAllAlong | 12.02.07 - 11:59 pm | #
thanks 4 the timeline, make me wonder why more people haven't been arrested or questioned. Like Romanelli or "A Formica"(like would RHG have known the name from press or lawyers).
and when you say blood in the cottage below them. Do you mean, in the same building below their flat. or lower down the road?
thanks
Robert M. yeah man.
and I will tighten up quotation and try not to waste post space by bickering about commenter.
I guess we're ALL sometimes guilty of clogging this page up
* apart from both AK and RS denying (if they both have) ever seeing the knife found in RSs place before.
* and apart from RHG & RS denying knowing each other.
* I'd like to know, what is the validity of reports that PL changed his simcard the day after & switched his mobile off at the same time (9pm) as both AK & RS?
thanks x
Robert M. | 12.03.07 - 1:54 am | asks if the book was known to be published before the crime happened.
* Don't know. Xin doesn't seem to think so. This is why I asked; was the release date of the book publicised before the crime. Or if anyone in Perugia had been given 'preview' chapters of it as a part of it's publicity.
Why didnt Patrick mention he fired Amanda in the beginning?
h0lym0n | 12.03.07 - 3:57 am
great point! this is why i ask about the validity of reports of the mobile phone info pertaining to PL in the press.
PL has been freed, yet still remains a suspect as far as I know. So, they haven't completely vindicated him. They are waiting, I guess, for someone to tell the truth.
* also, I'd never get this information but Formica, what shoe size is she exactly.
I mean, RHGs statement that he was accosted by a tall Italian man with brown hair (RS), doesn't fly with the initials AF he said MK whispered to him. If he is lying about this, then we have to conclude he is quite intelligent actually.
* Oh, and on the size7 stilhetto. I saw a press report that this is a SHOE that had been found. perhaps bad reporting, can't remember if it was open to interpretation by saying "evidece of a stilhetto", therefore meaning a bloodied shoe print. I guess it's a bloodied footprint as it'd be bloody dumb to leave behind your shoe, and hobble off!
As in, she's placed herself at the house and certain leaks that I accept confirm that. But none of it places her in Meredith's room and directly involved. Rob M
I am not so sure about this. granted, I read a poorly translated Italian article, maybe words for bidet, sink, wash-basin in Italian are interchangeable but. well at first it was reprted as 1 blood drop of AKs found in the communal bathroom. But in this press article, it was reported as her blood in the bidet, and her blood on the washbasin in merediths room.
loz
6 posts in a row?
this will slow the blog down like the last one...
sorry.
Guede going back to Italy soon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
uklate...7122626,00.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...in3565059.shtml
"Police have speculated that Rudy Hermann Guede, a native of Ivory Coast, may have fled to Germany using about $360 Kercher had withdrawn from a cash machine to pay her rent, reports Pizzey. The rent was apparently never paid. In another twist, Knox had about $310 dollars on her when she was arrested, opening up the possibility that the murder sprang from a row over money.
A local drug dealer reportedly told police that Knox owed money to a pusher."
That is really something new
I was looking for a website article that mentioned the money, converted to our American dollar. Not that it makes a difference, as people have been known to kill for pocket change, but I suppose being down at least a couple hundred to a drug dealer would apply some pressure... I still don't believe this is entirely about money, not one bit at all.
I agree Luke, money is at most the match that lit the spout of oil.
The one person proven to be present at the scene of the crime has not incriminated the other suspects.
Rudy has admitted to being present at Meredith's murder, and evidence shows that he was. By his own admission, he is at least a witness. If Amanda was involved, why has he not implicated her? He could very easily claim that she stabbed Meredith, and he freaked out and ran away.
But he hasn't.
At this point, there's no reason for him to protect her, if she was his accomplice or if she committed the murder on her own. He's got nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. Which leads me to believe that he ISN'T protecting Amanda, that she wasn't there, and that she was not involved. According to the testimony of the one person in custody who we know for sure WAS there.
My theory on the conflicting stories:
If it's possible that Amanda and Raffaele are actually innocent, then I think the following may explain their conflicting testimony. Police are trying to trap them by leaking some info and telling them some details, and making them draw conclusions or offer up explanations that actually, they don't have. But after hours of interrogation, they end up speculating about what could have happened, and their various imagined accounts don't add up. Of course not! They're just two kids trying to please the police interrogators and get the hell out of there, and the police are doing a mind job on them, trying to convince each of them that the other is guilty and will incriminate them, if they don't do so, first.
Remember, they didn't have lawyers at first, counseling them not to do something like this. Since they've gotten laywers, there have been no such inconsistencies, with the exception of Amanda's journal entry on Raffaele. As I wrote in a previous post, I don't consider it an "accusation" but merely her private speculations on what may or may not have happened. Much like we are speculating here. And, it's not like SHE released this "accusation" to the police or the public--the police did!
Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that the quotes are pulled out of context from the journal and this is, after all, her private journal. I bet that all of us have sections of private journals, or private thoughts that we haven't written down, that could be used by others to make us look bad!
"The one person proven to be present at the scene of the crime has not incriminated the other suspects."
Unless you consider Rudy saying that the real killer was an Italian, shorter than he, with light brown hair...
Ohhh... and just maybe the fact that he pointed out this killer WAS NOT wearing glasses. Kinda curious that you would describe a person by a feature they LACK, don't ya think?
Of course, we have no idea how any of these suspects were interrogated. The investigators could be using leading questions, which would be a tactic I would suspect in their situation. I think the bottom line is that they want to close this case and I'm not so sure that they wouldn't settle for putting just one or all three behind bars.
BD | 12.03.07 - 10:00 am
At this point, there's no reason for him to protect her
--I disagree. If both Rudy and Amanda were involved in the crime, then they both go down. If they both defend the other, then maybe they won't go down.
forinstance, maybe Rudy knows where Amanda's bloody shirt is. And maybe Amanda knows where some additional forensic evidence that would lead to Rudy is.
Yet it is odd how Amanda kept talking about the dirty toilet when at the police station. We speculated that she was pushing that to lead to Rudy.
http://
www.belfasttelegraph.co.u...icle3199091.ece The Hidden Dangers of Extreme Sex.......RS you bad boy!
That is the worst example of sensational over speculative garbage I have yet to read...
and hidden dangers? ( You introduce a knife or breath restriction to sex and it's dangerous, nothing "hidden" about it.)
12:35 AM Postal Police Arrive
12:54 AM Raffaele Calls Police
This is a time line from an earlier post. If this is verified, it seems to me like a pretty big deal.
Its a 19 min gap. This would speak volumes as to their non action.
DLW: RS lawyers are disagreeing with above. They say they have proof that RS called police before postal police arrive. We will see.
I think I missed why the police initially went/were called to the cottage?
My theory on the conflicting stories:
the following may explain their conflicting testimony
blah blah blah
BD | 12.03.07 - 10:11
if they be innocent who done the cleaning? why? the vampire didnt do it or he wouldve flushed. what about the mops and cleaning rags?
innocent people dont behave like these two clowns and if you cry 'they are scared and being manipulated!' think about the fact neither of them has appeared scared to anybody who relates having contact with them.
i propose that this blog just be used to post new links to NEW-BREAKING stories/leaks/evidence rather than having people emote all over the place about the innocence or guilt of the suckers that are so stupid they remain in jail.
they have implicated themselves with queer behaviour -if you want to rely on the vampire to soothe your troubled soul then shame on you. his SINGLE youtube video posted 9 months ago really nails down who exactly this clown is.
'i waaant to suck yooour blooood'
.
Anonymous | 12.03.07 - 11:50 am
sorry that was me...no cookies toady
.
The postal police were called by a lady who found two cell phones under a bush linked to Meredith and another flatmate. The police were curuous enough to investigate and went to the flat.
There are bound to be several key points of evidence that have not been shared by ILE. Phone records, banks records, CCTV tapes--all will be examined, and this takes time. ILE knows much more than has been "reported" or "leaked."
As to Rudy not implicating AK and/or RS, I would think he will wait to be back in Italy before making any more statements--his lawyer will want to be very clear about what everyone can gain or lose before we hear much more from Rudy.
Too many things don't add up, yet, for AK and RS to be innocent (in my mind, anyway): inconsistent accounts of where they were; AK's missing sweatshirt (perhaps bloodied and dumped); phone traffic between suspects; evidence of clean-up in other apts; conflicting stories about shoe prints, fingerprints, blood drops, etc.
I feel that ILE is working on building a strong case against whomever is responsible--whether one, two, three, or five; the more evidence ILE has, the harder for the suspects to fit their existing accounts to the truth.
Also, we may not have heard the whole and correct version of whatever PL told the police when he was first picked up. ILE may have known about PL firing AK long before it was made public--PL could tell his story only after being released.
Rob, I'm not being emotional.
If you want to limit this thread to only posting links and breaking news, and not include interpretations of these materials, then it would be a LOT shorter.
I'm not trying to annoy you or anyone else. Just offering up my readings of the circumstancial evidence. I know there are still a lot of things unaccounted for, like the knife and the shoe and the clean-up. I don't presume to know whether they're innocent or guilty, a priori. Just trying to consider all the facts and possibilities and come up with an interpretation. Is that any different from what other posters are doing?
Transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...h222.xml&
page=1
--hmmm I never read this complete before. It is interesting what Amanda remembers and doesn't remember.
From transcript, note how she talks about a mop. Obvioulsy she knows the mop is important. Isn't there a mop missing or something?--someone mentioned something about that?
One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered was that Raffaele and I ate fairly late, I think around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock. After dinner I noticed there was blood on Raffaele's hand, but I was under the impression that it was blood from the fish. After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn't have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home. I remember it was quite late because we were both very tired (though I can't say the time).
The next thing I remember was waking up the morning of Friday November 2nd around 10am and I took a plastic bag to take back my dirty cloths to go back to my house. It was then that I arrived home alone that I found the door to my house was wide open and this all began.
She is sooo sure about certain things, and what she is not sure about she says is like a dream. Where would she have learned this approach in defense. Is there a famous case where a defendant says statements which she is not sure is a dream or not? I mean, that is pretty clever for many reasons.
But the truth is, I am unsure about the truth and here's why:
1. The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.
2. My boyfriend has claimed that I have said things that I know are not true. I KNOW I told him I didn't have to work that night. I remember that moment very clearly. I also NEVER asked him to lie for me. This is absolutely a lie. What I don't understand is why Raffaele, who has always been so caring and gentle with me, would lie about this. What does he have to hide? I don't think he killed Meredith, but I do think he is scared, like me. He walked into a situation that he has never had to be in, and perhaps he is trying to find a way out by disassociating himself with me.
someone should send that link the the eyes for lies guy...
I never claimed to be a human lie detector and even I can tell that her statement is full of guilt.
BD,
Let me ask you a question. Why do you think that both RS and AK are still in prison? Why do you think the judge in this case decided to remand them back to prison this last weekend? Do you think that the Italian Police wanted to remand these two people back to prison because they are completely innocent?
Is does not really matter now whether or not AK or RS were led, entrapped or cajoled into saying things they did not wish to say when they were first interrogated by the Police; it was a sensationalist crime after all. A young woman had been brutally murdered. What do you expect the Police to have done in this situation?
Today, both of them have lawyers to represent them. I am sure they are good lawyers too. After last weeks' invocation, I did not hear their lawyers shout from the rooftops screaming, MY CLIENT IS INNOCENT OF THIS CRIME! My client has been falsely accused. This is a travesty. My client should be released immediately.
The actions of the courts of law, the individuals involved, both RS and AK, as well as the lawyers and family members speak volumes.
What went unnoticed in all of this, was that the lawyer representing the Kercher family said he was pleased with the results of the Judges actions and also said that he was constantly being informed by the actions of the court concerning this case.
Neither RS nor AK have been convicted of anything at the present moment and they are to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and for sure, they both will have their day in court, but they are in prison for a very good reason. You call the evidence against them circumstantial and to be honest, most evidence in murder cases is circumstantial.
That being said, based on say 1000 posts from intelligent people here, the preponderance of them fail to exclude either RS or AK as suspects involved in this vicious murder. And if it is determined that they knew anything of the crime, aided or abetted the perpetrators or were involved in the cleanup, they are, under the eyes of the law, accessories after the fact, and therefore, quilty of the murder of Meredith Kercher.
I just want to say something about this 'diary' of AK's as well as her other writing.
I wasn't always the 'practically perfect in every way (though occasionally narky) person I am now.
There was a time in my life I could have easily had a friend like AK, or at least the person she appeared to be before all of this.
I also have divorced parents. I also used to get in trouble frequently in my late teens and early twenties.
During this time of my life I was more promiscuous than I'd like to remember.
That said, I have a very visceral reaction to her 'prose'.
It seems to me far from innocent or speculative musings about the events that took place.
It reads like fiction, like someone who knows damn well they are guilty of 'something' and is hoping their attributes will cushion the blow as they have in the past.
The detail she goes into in describing the shower she and RS took together, how he washed her ears etc. and the choice of wording "I made love to Raffaele" appears designed to invoke some thoughts in the reader other than "This is an alibi".
Her account of how RS may have framed her is just as fantastic. (not meaning great/wonderful)
It is this trait of hers which I am intimately familiar with, that leads me to suspect her guilt. Anyone who could read it and imagine a poor girl 'trying to figure things out, herself' has never used such creativity to escape punishment before.
I may have had a lot in common with this girl at a time in my life and would swear that there is no way I could ever be capable of such a crime as she is now accused... but I know that despite all the circumstances that make us different from each other, there are by far more similarities that unite us.
Human beings are capable of ANYTHING. It's just a matter of circumstances and how they change. She may have seemed like a perfectly normal girl before all this happened but something changed.
Her behavior since has been anything but normal for an innocent grieving girl. Her behavior since she found herself in this 'situation' has been that of one who is guilty. Her own words perhaps speak loudest against her.
Just my opinion.
I was looking for a website article that mentioned the money, converted to our American dollar. Not that it makes a difference, as people have been known to kill for pocket change, but I suppose being down at least a couple hundred to a drug dealer would apply some pressure... I still don't believe this is entirely about money, not one bit at all.
Luke | Homepage | 12.03.07 - 9:28 am | #
indeed, as RS would have bailed Knox out of any sudden situation regards money. RHG may have found & taken the money to fund the run. seems they're going with either he was funding his run, therefore it was not about drug money. Or AK stole MKs money, but to murder over it. the money motive doesn't add up. I think more likely either AK or RHG stole the money to go on the run. but either of them could have withdrawn their own money to do this, wouldn't they be able to check bank statements/activity to verify. seems it's either misinformation, or a confusion strategy from AK & RHG, just like the fact AK & RS deny all knowledge of the knife, and RS & RHG deny knowing each other. They had that money to be found on them on purpose?
I just want to say something about this 'diary' of AK's as well as her other writing. belle | 12.03.07 - 1:35 pm |
Belle that was not even a diary, this was her hand written statement to the police the day she was arrested!!!
Luke,
I agree with you. If the perpetrators spent an enormous amount of time trying to fudge the crime, and then an enormous amount of time cleaning up, then it was hardly about money.
also, I guess the article LUKE linked doesn't actually say RHG HAD any money on him, they speculate he could have used the money to run
""One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered was that Raffaele and I ate fairly late, I think around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock. After dinner I noticed there was blood on Raffaele's hand,""
this is interesting, because even before the time of death was released, AK seems to know the approx time of death/attack. around 11pm.
also, what a load of bollox, what RS was cooking and didn't think to wash the blood off his hand. yeah OK.
these latest posts seem rational to me.
the big a, the boyfriend and the vampire are guilty of something, of that the doubt has already been removed.
exactly what they are guilty of will only emerge during the course of the legal proceedings through further analysis/discovery of evidence and the additional forma statements of the main suspects.
notwithstanding the minutia it really is case closed for now.
i posted this early on and think it poignant still:
Let's slow down and get some perspective here.
it is admirable and utterly human to feel outrage at senseless murder....
it is regrettable and utterly human to express this outrage focusing on insignificant detail....
all because we as humans cannot fully accept the abject horror of our brutality to each other
we look away - seeking to find mental balance in analyzing the unimportant things
mr soprano a fine fictional example
rob | 11.08.07
peace y'all
.
Steve has a new post on RADAR, and thought people could check it out and if they like it, would recommend. (not about this topic, about though)
Click to support steve
http://radaronline.com/exclusive...-
playthings.php
Luke,
I read and re-read AK's lengthly statement after her imprisonment, searching for some clue(s), but to be honest, I cannot make heads or tails of it. Suffice to say, after reading it, it seemed to me that all of your thoughts and statements concerning her character, are dead on; the lady is indeed, socio-pathic
Anyone know where to find a copy of Raffaele's "Oct. 17th" blog wherein he writes of his desire for extreme sex to break up the monotony? Seems one can find all of Amanda's mediocre writings but this is elusive. Thanks.
Here's hoping the truth comes out real soon for Meredith and her family. I hope Amanda and whoever helped her suffer mentally, emotionally and any other way that won't let them off easy (such as the death penalty) They all deserve to be forced to live with what they have done for a long, long time.
I know, I said 'and other writing'. Her 'framing' by RS was the bit from the diary. I was describing her writing in general.
bpcl, there are a lot of unanswered questions, and it's true, we don't know what other evidence there is.
(I suspect that if the police had an ace up their sleeve, they would have charged Amanda and Raffaele, not just keep them in custody while they continue the investigation.)
My point is that the evidence that we, the public, have access to is all circumstancial so far. In the end, it may prove to be overwhelmingly circumstancial and their guilt will be evident. And even now, it's true, there's so much that is suspicious. At the same time, it doesn't add up. Anywhere from three to five people who don't know each other all that well conspire to rape and kill a young woman together? A young woman sets up her roommate to be raped and killed by a drug dealer in her own home? A young man, whose sister is in the police force, decides to help his girlfriend of two weeks plant blood in a neighbors apartment and then does a massive clean up to help her cover her tracks? These are all possible scenarios, to be sure, but they just seem farfetched to me. Most crimes have a simple motive, simple methods, and if it's a messy scene, there's incontrovertible evidence of the perpetrator's presence. In this case, it's all very convoluted and that makes me suspect that it's either much simpler than we think, or there's some key that links everything but we just don't know it yet.
Los,
Very interesting observation! I have been trying to link AK's observation of the blood on RS's hand to something, but just could not put two and two together. Your observation about the blood and the time (fruedian slips are important from time to time) is the best that I have seen. Thank you.
looking at it from the pov she is lying:
"After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn't have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home"
she mentions the 'magic mop'
"The next thing I remember was waking up the morning of Friday November 2nd around 10am and I took a plastic bag to take back my dirty cloths to go back to my house."
incase she was seen walking around with a plastic bag
"Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think."
slip of admission?
"I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure"
does she know who did, which of the 3(or 5) of them did.
"I have a clearer mind that I've had before, but I'm still missing parts, which I know is bad for me."
but it's the best she can do.
"All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith"
Unfortunately, right now I see little reason for Amanda's memory to become more clairvoyant in the coming months. She's blamed Patrick, Raafaele, and implicated herself. Meanwhile, accolades the world over keep pouring in. Giving out tidbits of info here and there, just enough to keep her in the limelight.
She's going to string this out until court time, less than a year from now, and see if there is enough evidence to convict her.
BD,
I actually think the crime was simple, at least at the very beginning. As a result of the immaturity of the persons I think were involved, (AK/RS/RG) it became bigger. AK said she was sorry about the 'situation' which to me means something that got so out of hand. I don't even believe there was an evil, vindictive motive per se, although certainly, AK supposedly was deeply jealous and envious of Meredith.
I think the Police thought that either RS or AK would crack by now. But honestly, they are/were so drugged out(RS and AK were smoking all day, they admitted) and RG is a drug addict himself, that the truth coming from them is so hard to find. In time, I think this will all come out. The one good thing about prison for both RS and AK is, they will not be able to have constant access to drugs, they will not be able to have sex all day long and maybe, just maybe, they will begin to reflect on the gift of life given to them by their parents. Inspite of all the crap they have put their parents through, their parents are there, trying their level best to cope with the situation.
That being said, please do not forget the victim in this case, a young girl, full of life, whose soul was extinguished for what, narcissism? Her family will cry for justice, and to be honest, that is what most of us have stated here, the we speak for Meredith and justice for her family.
I'm wondering if Meredith gave Rudy the money to help spare her life. About $315 in American money.
Meredith and her family is in all our prayers.
BD | 12.03.07 - 1:57 pm
perps covering their tracks with cleaning and lies makes for a confused scene....THAT DONT MAKE THESE MORONS INNOCENT
maybe you advocate clever murderers getting off? it's all a game of cat and mouse with the
cops, right? nice pov
agreed the murder scene evidence is occult. the other evidence is and will not be....
.
They say "The truth will set you free"
Seems not to be the case here...lies and confusion must be the only option for freedom. I still believe they are all communicating with each other thru the media and their writting.
Neither RS or Ak can admit that they know Rudy or his actions because that would place them too close to the crime...but they can issue veiled threats to each other through there writtings of lapsed or found memories.
All three are guilty to some extent in this crime and till some "truth" emerges from one of them, that extent will not be known.
As always...My Opinion Only
agreed the murder scene evidence is occult. the other evidence is NOT and will NOT be....
sorry agian i am off kilter today
.
bpcl: they didn't "admit" to doing drugs, they "claimed" they did; maybe that's a way to ejus. I agree with you that the crime began simply and escalated.
AK/RS aren't going to crack before RHG gives his statement to LE.
RHG hasn't mentioned AK (yet) because she can incriminate him in return. Don't show your defense until you see their offense.
Puzzler,
Thank you for the correction on the drug use concerning both AK and RS. I stand corrected.
maybe you advocate clever murderers getting off? it's all a game of cat and mouse with the
cops, right? nice pov
rob | 12.03.07 - 2:36 pm |
Chill out. That's not what I'm saying, not even close.
BD
im chilled...your posts sure seem to support the innocence of the detainees, at the cost of ignoring the facts that have condemned them to remand in prison.
.
Belle,
I am in agreement with your statements.
I have a few questions regarding the evidence. Perhaps someone knows the answers?
-Amanda's blood. Was it found on the faucet in the bathroom, or on a washbasin in Meredith's room? Posters have indicated both, and it's confusing, and important.
-The bleach receipts. Some papers have reported that they were bought the morning that Meredith's body was discovered, before 10 am. Other papers report that these were old receipts. Has either been confirmed?
-Has there been any more news on the DNA evidence of the two other people that doesn't match Amanda or Raffaele?
-Whose clothing was being laundered in the house when the postal police arrived?
-Contrasting reports of cell phones being turned off, but also of a flurry of text messages going back and forth. Any clarification here? This would be important, because why would there be a flurry of text messages between Raffaele and Amanda if they were spending the night together, as she claims?
The claim of smoking pot or even hash all day might confuse them to the point of forgetting where they put their keys....but come on....forgetting where they were or what they did that night....unless it was laced with PCP...I'm not buying it.
lol Rhonda, exactly. (though having never done pcp...)
if the shit they has was THAT good im buying it as soon as i can get it!
harhar
.
Los, Your observation about the blood and the time (fruedian slips are important from time to time) is the best that I have seen. Thank you.
bpcl | 12.03.07 - 1:58 pm | #
====
*blushes*
well it's all thanks to the person who posted the transcript. I read it, and it occured to me just then.
others I think on here, who have more info than UK jo-public or must have been following the case more avidly than me, picked up on the burst pipes and magic mop thing. and perhaps even the blood thing aaages ago.
so, according to her, RS murdered, came back, didn't wash his hands properly, cooked a meal, but didn't look bloody in any other places.
so like:
*he washed himself well, with his hands, so well as to not leave blood anywhere else, yet the blood stayed on his hands.
yeah right, DUH
he shoots leaves, and eats.
but then, I guess, you see, it would have been better for her to leave out the time. yeah, she can still maintain the blood was from the fish, so it was a legit statement. BUT the time bit looks suspicious to me.
I guess though she could hardly say: 'I saw blood all over RS, his clothes were drenched in it, his face was splattered with it, it was all up hi arms. But I just assumed it was from the fish.
*she defo wanted to make a connection between RS, the time, and blood.
im chilled...your posts sure seem to support the innocence of the detainees, at the cost of ignoring the facts that have condemned them to remand in prison.
rob | 12.03.07 - 2:58 pm |
I haven't been trying to ignore facts. Because there's been so much that has been misreported or contradicted, I took a Pinecone approach and tried to consider the only facts that have proven to be incontrovertible and not circumstancial. When new details come to light, or when speculative evidence becomes proof, then I will take these into account, too.
The only reason I "support" their innocence is because I believe the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty. That said, because there is a good amount of circumstancial evidence against them, coupled with the fact that their statements have been conflicting and confused and at times lies (ie Raffaele claiming her spoke to his dad when he didn't) of course it makes sense to detain them as the investigation continues.
Puzzler,
You are correct in stating that both RS and AK have to wait(or are waiting) until RG is in custody and to hear some of his statements concerning his thoughts(I think their lawyers are waiting anxiously too!). I agree too with another poster here that just stated to the effect, that both RS and AK are trying to communicate with each other, via their individual statements. And of course, these statements are approved by their lawyers one would assume.
And I appreciate your talent for pointing this out to me. We all have a talent here, and each of us is using this talent to give our point of view of the events as they appear before us. From my vantage point, the collapse of both RS and AK is a result of their propensity to cave in/give into to narcissism. Belle eloquently pointed this fact out vis a vis her own life which I thought was gracious. It gives us another perspective from a person who saw this happening in her own life, and how it could just have easily happened to both RS and AK; two birds of a feather so to speak.
BD
you are obviously biased towards the big a.
she lied and implicated an innocent man, then recanted.
enough said
i really dont enjoy your contribution.
.
sorry BD im so confused...maybe i was dreaming i read your post and thought what i maybe thought. i dont know.
but it is way cool that other posters here think i am hot and want to have sex with me.
some are insulting though so i will sing every chance i get to ward that off..
thanks
.
Belle that was not even a diary, this was her hand written statement to the police the day she was arrested!!!
chris | 12.03.07 - 1:43 pm | #
chris, when did the time of death get released. had the police told her it. did THEY even know it?
is it possible she mentioned the time in her statement, after having this knowledge.
cos if not - she knows about the murder, what time it was at, and what happened, judging from her statement.
it's kind of a break-through.
although i am sure the police know this, and the judge which is why she's being kept in custody
i really dont enjoy your contribution.
.
rob | 12.03.07 - 3:25 pm | #
So don't read them, Rob.
Loz, what AK wrote implicating RS with the 'fish blood' etc. goes along with what I said about her creating a fiction that leaves her a sweet little loophole out of harms way. She is after all, a Creative Writing major... and no doubt a very experienced liar when it comes to getting cleared of any wrongdoing.
tell yourself that Rhonda...
i am only dealing in the KNOWN realm, i dont care for defenders/attackers of the detainees that dont rely on full recall of the known (but few in number) facts.
thanks for the lecture though.
does this mean you dont think im hot?
haha
.
Rhonda
obla-di-obla-da!
la la la!
gotta sing, gotta dance!!!!!
.
Rob... have you been smoking AK's pcp-laced joints again?
and also, what of his clothes. and why doesn't she mention, 'he had also changed his clothes from what i saw him wearing before I fell asleep'. or something like that. why weren't his clothes blood-soaked.
Her statement you see has glaring holes.
and i guess, legitimately, what he cleaned himself, but touched bloodied clothes with his hands only after this. still, for someone obsessed with cleaning blood off him, he didn't wash his hands again?
not even before cooking. he might be ocd. not many people, and NO ocd person, would prepare a meal with human blood on their hand (not even their own blood).
I'm sorry but I keep seeing PK referred to as an "innocent man", but how do we know he is really innocent? Even if he was just privy to what happened in some way... Doesnt that make him guilty by association? I can't shake the fact, that he knows something... I stand my my theory that he was aware of what happened and got out as quick as he could, as to not be involved... Just my thoughts...
Oops, I meant PL ... Patrick Diya Lamumba
it's just like.
she tries to explain away ALL the incriminating evidence.
yet, that would mean they'd have to notice blood in the kitchen and bathroom.
so then she deals with that, tries to explain it away as she thought it was menses blood.
what a crock of sh*t she is.
stupid girl. she's going to be found guilty of murder i think. for sure. along with RHG.
good.
I can't believe how dumb I am. It took me a million years to work it out!!
when did you lot work it all out?
*feeling dumb*
Jenny,
From what I know, the Police have retrieved the text messages that he sent to AK. AK has stated that she talked to Patrick Lumumba about work that evening. AK even went so far as to say in her tearful statement, that "she was sorry about Patrick," meaning framing him in my opinion. His cellphone was pinged the night of the murder most likely because of the text message from him to AK and the return message concerning work that fateful evening.
There is absolutely no circumstantial evidence in play right now (that I am aware of) that links him to the cottage and the crime. Most of us here have excluded Patrick as being an accomplice. And the Police have as well. From what I know, Patrick is a known fixture in his community. He might be one person that knew a lot about not only the students there(his club) but also, what happens on the streets of Purugia.
That being said, he hurt himself by deleting the text messages from his cellphone concerning AK and also, ordering a new phone the next day. But the fact that he was incarcerated so quickly the following day, and his statements asking why the Police did not investigate his whereabouts more thoroughly, in my opinion, have racial overtones to it. I have heard, although I do not know this to be factual, he called AK the following day to ask whether or not it was true that Meredith was killed; she is alleged to have responded that it was true.(If this is factual, then Patrick is an innocent man)
That being said, with all the critical posts that have been written here by many intelligent people here, I would venture to say, that collectively, we have excluded Patrick Lumumba as being involved as one of the perpetrators.
jenney
lots of UNCONNECTED witnesses, including the professor from switzerland, placed Patrick at the bar that night.
the evidence used to release him is overwhelming...they would have loved to pin this murder on him if they could. it would be nice and 'wrapped'.
he is free for the simple reason he was at his bar.
a 40 year old black immigrant to italy with a young family, recently obtaining a license to run a bar would have WAAAY more to lose than the young losers that are in jail now on suspicion of murder.
i guess you need to be 40 to understand that some 'thrills' are not really thrills at all but wild unreasonable threats to all elements of the life you have been building.
.
WHAT A CROCK OF SHIT SHe is though. ISN'T SHE.
what a SNIVELLING CONNIVITING PIECE OF EXPLETIVES.
and that statement, and then HER ACCUSING THE POLICE OF BRUTALITY. AND THEN TRYING TO LOOK ALL FRAGILE & FRGETFUL & HELPFUL
THAT'S THE MIND OF A MURDERER. THAT'S THE 'PSYCHOLOGICAL' PROOF WE WERE LOOKING FOR
Luckily, the police already know this, and the judge, how can they not. As they have seen it many times (unfortunately) before.
and you know why else I think she's so desperate to link RS, & merediths murder & bloodied hand, with the time of death thrown in for good measure too?
cos of this:
"One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered."-fish statement follows
the reiterating of murder of MK, just before.
this is because, she herself, in her mind, is wanting to link it.
I know, I know... But it just seems odd to me that he got a new phone the next day. I suppose the ping happening due to the text message would make sense... I didn't think of it that way. Actually I didnt realize that a text message would ping the same as actually being in the area. My thought from the beginning was that she might have called him over, in a panic, if you will... not knowing what to do... and when he found out... he thought "crap.. I'm not gettin' involved in this" and left... Again... just an opinion and my thought... I could certainly be wrong...
eugh and you know what else it means about her.
that it was in cold blood.
I KNOW i promised not to ramble, no to multiple post. and now I won't from now on
apologies
I could certainly be wrong...
jenny | 12.03.07 - 4:29 pm |
jenny over 16 witnesses say you are certainly wrong.
get it? i hope you do.
.
god, I am so behind, so slow.
when did you lot work it out?
the fish, the time, the blood?
Loz, pretty much the first time I read her narrative. You know how "the truth has a certain ring to it?" Well her lies are like a foghorn. Then her apparent memory problems... obviously more lies to cover lies. Is there anything she wouldn't say to get clear of this, or anyone she wouldn't incriminate? I doubt it very much.
Jenny,
This will be my last public comment on the matter of Patrick Lumumba. From this case, I have learned that there is a great deal of tension between the Italian people and immigrants from Africa. I am not privy to the extent. But can you imagine what it must be like to be a person of color to even be associated with the killing of a non colored person? Persons of color must live their lives by a different standard for all the obvious reasons.
I am sure he panicked, he has a store there, he is involved in the Music scene, he is involved with students in their lives(He gave the job to AK, but had to fire her and I think he is on record saying he was going to give the job to Meredith) He stood to lose so much, and I am not trying to make amends for his actions; perhaps his perceived standard of his place in Italian society led him to move down a different path(hide his connection if you will). I am willing to bet that if he regrets one thing about himself during this whole sordid mess it is this, that he tried to hide from his race. his own ethnicity if you will, in order to give himself a chance of not being perceived as involved. I am really sorry for him for as he stated, AK has ruined his reputation forever.(Not like you would think, but rather, that he ran from is own ethnicity, something any innocent man, regardless of color, should not have to do)
bpcl, you are right that there is a certain stigma here that "foreigners are responsible for all the problems." I agree with your last post in this context, that PL would wish to distance himself from any sort of scandal, especially this one and its nature.
The Repubblica reports that Rudy will arrive in Italy on Thursday, the same day that RS will clarify some issues for the Lead Investigator.
The article touches on the sexual contact between Meredith and Rudy--I still think the implication is one to oral sex, but like so many other things with this case, it remains to be seen...
"Guede has always rejected the accusation of having killed the student English and having raped. "We must remember," said the legal Biscuits Porta a Porta-Rudy says that the truth, a truth difficult and uncomfortable and is determined to come to Italy just to tell the truth. "There is no evidence of sexual violence and even a full sexual relationship,"
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...k-
germania.html
December 12 is Amanda's turn with the PM
"We must remember," said the legal Biscuits Porta a Porta-Rudy etc.
in a2's last post the translation "legal Biscuits" actually was naming 'legale' "Walter Biscotti" in case anyone was confused
Wow... I can't believe that people would get a nasty tone toward me due to my opinion... Either way, as I stated... It is MY opinion... I don't need, or expect anyone to agree with me... I will not post anymore...
Carry on...
I think I'm gonna have to take a break from this until something significant comes forward. It makes no sense to just retread over old stories, especially when I can't even be sure that the media coverage hasn't contaminated the investigation, not to even mention my own thoughts and feelings.
bcpl
'he tried to hide from his race. his own ethnicity if you will, in order to give himself a chance of not being perceived as involved'
what the fuck?????
'he ran from is own ethnicity'
you fucking twat!
what do you know about race or being an immigrant?
i find your comments asinine.
shut the fuck up you ignorant shit
.
jenny whats nasty about 16 witnesses?
that it does not fit into your 'theory/opinion'?
i suppose the most personal of opinions a formed by ignoring the inconvenient facts.
.
These are all possible scenarios, to be sure, but they just seem farfetched to me. BD | 12.03.07 - 1:57 pm | #
BD actually, no it's not if AK is a snivelling socio/psycho path, as is very evident to me anyway now from her statement.
and she instigated the rape. and RHG & RS were there, and one or both of them raped. then actually it's very pausible.
what if AK & RHG are in on it ALONE (unlikely cos AK & RS both switched off their phones at the same time). what if AK ran to RS & said she owed her dealer(s) money to RS,
and came across as all sad about it, tht the drug dealer(s) came in & did it to MK, and that she has only just escaped the terrible attack. she said to him they broke in.
he in 'white knight mode' rushes to the house, the bedroom door is locked, he EVEN tries to climb up to MKs room (so even though AK is a rock-climber, he doesn't question it cos she said she's scared to go in there alone), he valiantly tries to access MKs room to ensure she's OK even with the threat of the perp(s) being inside. when he can't he phones the police.
agh, all unlikely, if he is involved in the cleanup, or AK persuaded him to cos she told him she was cared of incrimination.
I now KNOW why some forumers have been exploring this route, that he didn't know what he was cleaning up?
and now, after working out her statement I know why
But he did, he knew he was cleaning up a murder (if he did indeed clean up), except he was doing it because AK persuaded im that she'd be blamed cos of the drugs stuff, that they'd blame her.
------------------
is this plausible? I dn' think so, cos why check for MKs safety, then clean up, if he did clean up, instead of immediately calling the police.
can more intelligent posters here explain why the white knight theory works, or doesn't work?
Even though Raffaele & Amanda only knew each other for two weeks, I think they were essentially married. It's not surprising he got his foot stuck in this, assuming he's only guilty of a coverup. Look at what John Ramsey did to help cover for his 'beloved' wife Patsy, during the JonBenet murder case. Right now RS & AK are just throwing snowballs at each other, but it's a start.
and also, I am left wondering. wondering about the vision of the party & AK instigating the sexual attack on MK.
was it after AKs statement was released, and being aware of reports of 'rape' & 'murder'.
and in my subcnscious I KNEW all along?
and only today it popped up & came into mind.
I think so, cos now it seems more likely AK & RHG & possibly RS were involved.
Jenny and bcpl, I hope that one person's nasty comments won't prevent you from posting your opinions. We can all play fair, right rob?
I second that Belle.
Rob,
Since none of us can possibly know what exactly happened on that horrendous night, tolerance of diverse opinions is called for - because this has a better chance of leading us to the truth.
Re Bpcl, she most probably has more experience of the things she was talking about than you or I can know.
Respect,
Andy
mmmm... legal biscuits....
Biscotti?
just laughing again to myself over 'legale Walter Biscotti' translating to 'legal biscuits'... and I'm hungry
Me too, i missed my dinner
how about this for inspiration...
http://www.amazon.com/Biscotti-L...t/dp/
0811800954
Notice the knife on the front cover, oh...
you are all running from your ethnicity
.
lol rob
actually, I'm pretty sure they're tongs... and far to large to be 'the' tongs.
This is what I'm going to get everybody for mikkelmas this year
It's got a five star rating
And this is one of the reviews..
"Biscotti by Lou Seibert Pappas and biscotti from the recipe book were a gift from a cousin. The delicious recipes and the ease of making them, inspired me to send both biscotti and the book, Biscotti, as Christmas gifts this year. All the recipents declared the gift the best ever; not one crumb was left. I highly reccommend the book."
lol thanks AndyT
I've been wondering what exactly drew people to this case in the first place, besides its sordid nature.
I'm originally from the SF Bay Area, relocated to Milan, IT... so naturally all the coverage on TV here focusing on AK led me to investigate further.
I would imagine most of the people here are either from the Seattle area, England, or American expats living in Italy... but would be interested in learning more, right or wrong.
ROB clam down. That was uncalled for both to jenny and bcpl, especially the latter who's contriubtions are thorough & thought out. Luke is correct we are drifting without new TIME Sequences (wait for xin!) and/or new info/leaks. We're just getting little pieces of follow-up work such as the ATM pattern of withdrawals without the context of such patterns for Amanda Rafe & Rudy if he even had an account. I'm assuming * cough * that the local drug busy is all euros just as the NE country antiques business. Much to the anxiety of the ILE this is not "case closed"--the numerous details don't yield for them a consistent AND clear master theory where even the outlier evidence can be ruled in or out.
Unless the Couple in the White Car get found through serendipty, thems the lugs we got to work with.
For me one of the reasons is that I had a relationship lasting from early June until September with an Italian. It was so intense and so painful... (even now it is painful)
[This is no criticism of Italians, who I love to bits.]
Somehow the sadness of what happened to Meredith touched my heart.
Also, a strange coincidence is that I once traveled through Italy with a UW student (from Seattle). We almost ended up killing each other.
I'm not American, but I seem to have spent quite a bit of my life with Americans. Born in UK, but spent less than half my life there.
I don't watch tv, so this is a good way to follow the "news". My work means that I'm by my pc quite a bit.
Rob,
Hey, thanks for your comments. They are appreciated. I want you to know that I have never been called that many names by making a single post. But it is nice to know that you do at least read them an care enough to comment on them.
Luke, Jenny, wait you both can't go. I/we need your input. IF it makes any difference, I always am looking forward to reading your perspective(s) on this case, no matter how much information is out there.
[This is no criticism of Italians, who I love to bits.]
me, I just love criticizing Italians to bits! (totally joking)
I've only lived here 9 months, so a lot of my experiences are still somewhat of a novelty. I spoke about two words of Italian when I arrived and was desperately homesick.
It's fascinating to see this investigation from different perspectives. On another forum there was so much anti-Italian sentiment...
I don't miss that aspect of American patriotism... if you could call it that.
"I would imagine most of the people here are either from the Seattle area, England, or American expats living in Italy... but would be interested in learning more, right or wrong."
Some of us just have a general interest in true-crime (particularly as told by Steve Huff), as well as an affinity for truth and justice. (note that I left off "and the American way.") :P
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...in3565059.shtml
"But in the 125-page handwritten diary entitled "My Prison," Knox reportedly wrote, "This could have happened ... Raffaele went to Meredith's house, raped her and killed her, and then, having come back home, pressed my fingerprints ... I was asleep ... onto the knife."
Those words may suggest THAT knife IS the murder weapon, and Amanda is trying to distance herself from it. (funny that only her prints/DNA was found on it.)
Thank you... I do appreciate this blog and all of the scenarios... If anything...it gets ya thinkin'... I am from NJ... and I for some reason and intrugued by the English... I've actually been following the Princess Diana inquest and came upon this story on This is London...My heart sank when reading the first report...and here I am... I feel terrible for Meredith and her family...Now I just can't wait for all of the truth to come out... I work in the mortgage industry so as you can imagine...I'm a bit slow at work and find myself constantly checking this for all of your thought, ideas, and updates...I think everyone here has great contributions...even you Rob
rob? he's just running from his ethnicity
kay gotta run, 2am here! A domani, ciao
Luke,
The only problem with AK's argument is, that no trace of DNA from RS has been discovered in the cottage, other than maybe the shoe print and perhaps, something else that we are not yet aware of.(The Police did say that they found of fingerprint of him in Meredith's room, somewhere I believe)
Someone said here earlier that these statements are placed in the Press in order to intimidate the other witnesses into not saying something. Certainly, her lawyers must be approving them, would you not agree?
You have her down Luke. She is indeed socio-pathic and will try to say anything she can fin order to distance herself from the murder. The only problem is, her DNA is all over the scene too.
I believe that they found fingerprints belonging to RS on the inside of the door to Meredith's room.
Those words may suggest THAT knife IS the murder weapon, and Amanda is trying to distance herself from it. (funny that only her prints/DNA was found on it.)
Luke | Homepage | 12.03.07 - 7:49 pm | #
--- Yep, I agree. That is why it is interesting to look at her statement to the police and look at the details that she brought up.
Again, what is the deal with the mop. Was one missing from her flat as some people said early on?
The devil is in the details!!! Most certainly.
Corrine wrote at | 12.03.07 - 1:56 pm | Anyone know where to find a copy of Raffaele's "Oct. 17th" blog wherein he writes of his desire for extreme sex to break up the monotony?
I don't have that one, but a few days ago I found a Google cache with RS's blog ("Mondi Paralleli" he calls it: Parallel Worlds), up until Oct. 13.
Good thing I saved it to disk, as since then the Google cache has been wiped.
If this blog wishes, I'll post the Italian (or translated to English) comments. Nothing widely weird except for a couple of strange references like one to the "Monster of Foligno", an Italian serial called call Luigi Chiatti, whom RS professes admiration for (basically, in the same breath as his admiration for Ferrari engineers). Seriously.
Either original Italian or rough translation, it's alot of text, it's 3 a.m., I'm off to bed, will see any expression of interest in the morning.
Cheers.
Kermit,
It would be a good thing to read here. Thanks.
Kermit | 12.03.07 - 9:15 pm | #
-- Is saw some mention of this blog earlier, and it was in italian and what little as translated to english made me worry about context. it would be great if you could translant the entire post, and post it here,
Thank you so much, I appreciate that work involved. Please also include the link to the orignial content.
Again, thank you. If this is true, this is very disturbing, not just musings of photos from holloween with a clever etc..as RS has presented.
Juat want to say, that we knew this and read this, but a reminder that the invesitgators involved are most certainly holding there cards and manipulation situations, which THEY SHOULD BE DOING, but it didn't work in this case below...Again for them and for the suspects, it is the little things that get you in the end.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europ...ope/
7125863.stm
They had planned to arrest him as he crossed the border back into Italy, but a German ticket inspector detained him for fare-dodging.
Those words may suggest THAT knife IS the murder weapon, and Amanda is trying to distance herself from it. (funny that only her prints/DNA was found on it.)
Luke | Homepage | 12.03.07 - 7:49 pm
I agree with everything you say. However that does'nt mean she used it, or perhaps does'nt even know the user. All she knows it was left at the murder scene. Raffaele steps in and retrieve's the knife before the cops confiscate it.
But this knife is extra special, has unknown powers, it was used in a real murder. Clean it up a little. Call it a souvanir, or an aphrodisiac for s&m addicts during their games..
Just playing devils advocate
The devils in the details and devils advocate--both so appropriate in this case. I am not being religious or cult orientatied, just going on these expressions.
Come to think about it. I would'nt mind having Lizzi Bordens axe.
OK--sassy nasty local seattle blog
sample post:
[there's more including one that says AK is Jewish]
i do think there are people in this mix that know ak, but you never know who...
The Slog/the very irreverant blog connected to *The Stranger*, a Seattle weekly that has its amusing moments and some fine photography.
http://tinyurl.com/2pmb2n
sorry. too much white space.
sample post:
no wonder there is so much white space, this snippet from The Slog vanished from above. swear to dog.
Disappeared again, hit the Slog above. It is amusing.
Sorry for killing all those pixels.
Here is an edited combination of timelines submitted by Andy T and BeenHereAllALong, hope these look ok to you two. Thanks so much.
I'm afraid I deleted breakfast of Horlick's and toast until we have attribution, as much as I believe it, AT. Otherwise,
•Pure conjecture is set off with [bracket] and space
•Notes to be added indicated with [brackets]
(source is noted in parentheses)
•AK's mom identified here as EKM--Edda Knox Mellas for clarity
Who would like to be timeline monitor? The first draft is always the hardest.
November 1, 2007
1:00 PM AK & MK at their apartment
3-4:00 MK left
5:00 AK, RS went to his apartment (per AK)
6:00 AK, RS left her apartment (per Rafe)
“He was with AK until 1800 when they had both left RS apartment to go into the centre, around 2030 to 2100”
RS went home, smoked; had dinner
8:30 AK text message from PL
8:43 AK? seen on CCTV entering her house
8.45 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X arrive at house.
8.50 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir fry them.
8:30 – 9 (AK “left him [RS], saying to him that she would go to Le Chic, meet friends while he returned to his house”)
“… left the house telling Sollecito that she was going to work, [but she], she was at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana.”
9 “It was [about] this time that either RS or AK turned off their mobile phones, which [were on] again the following morning.”
“All three [includes PL] suspects have a gap in cell phone use for two hours around the time MK was raped and killed, according to the judge's order. PL changed his cell phone number the day after the murder.”
9 AK claimed to meet PL at B-Ball courts and [return] to her house
9 MK leaves friend’s house to return home
9 The five have snack: garlic mushrooms and mozarella cheese.
9.15 MK arrives, and tastes the mushrooms.
[[9.30 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X begin party in AK's room.
9.45 MK tells party animals to turn the music down (she's real tired after Halloween party the night before).
10.00 AK tells RHG, who's watching the foursome and looking a bit bored to "go get MK."
10.05 RHG enters MK's room.
10.07 MK tells RHG to leave. He takes her cellphones and goes back to AK's room.
10.10 AK, RS, Mr X, Ms X accompany RHG to MK's room assault.]]
10.30 Third, final stab. [strangulation?/presumed time of death]
10.31 RHG rushes out of house (cellphones dumped nearby).
10.32 Foursome leave MK's room, locking the door behind them.
[10.30-11. AK, RS, Mr X and Ms X listen to MK's screams, till silence]
10:30 “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost knocked over by a black man running away from scene”
11:00 PM RSs father called
11.30 They return to room, move body.
11-1 AM RS on Internet
11.45-2 Clean up.
11.45-3
[? break window, vandalize downstairs]
1 AM AK at RS’s apt
This story makes me sick. I am an American who has travelled and has cavorted with boys in Euro countries. My heart and soul go out to Meredith's family. Amanda Knox seems like a narcissist, full of herself. Not some Catholic Gal (and what does that mean anyway?) but one who went to a few good schools and had a great chance to study abroad in one of the most beautiful, historic countries in the world. She is a selfish girl, evidenced by her blowing off the job in Germany, hating competition of other women, reaching for some sort of meanting in her young life, and taking down anyone in her sphere.
I believe she did this crime. I believe her boyfriend, Sollecito, did too, evidenced by bleach, lies about alibi, etc. Who buys bleach early in the morning, brags to the media, and shops for lingerie, after a friend has been brutally murdered? A roommate? I also believe this Rudy fellow (DNA evidence) was sureley involved. And I am not out about Patrick, but due to his changing his phone the next day, I'm not discounting something. Drugs, not hash, but probably coke or ectasy were involved.
Some people have talked about motive and whether it will make a jury convict. You do not have to show motive. It helps, but you do not have to get in the head of a killer. My best friend was murdered and while the trial was in the US, no motive was never brought into the trial. He was finally convicted. The nightmares never, ever end. People say, "Oh but it is all circumstantial evidence!" Every piece of evidence is circumstantial, but is a piece of a puzzle and together makes a picture. I am sure the delays of this trial will go on for some time, unfortunately delaying any peace for her family, but I believe that the Italian authorities are putting their hearts into this case and that justice will prevail. I pray for eventual calm nights of sleep for Meredith's family and that they find peace and assurance within their family and hope in their future. It breaks my heart. Again.
November 2, 2007
8:30 AM Bleach receipt (this day?)
9:15 Bleach receipt (this day)
10:00 (per RS) Woke up at RS’s in morning
10:30 (per RS) AK returns to her house to wash; took empty plastic bag
11 (per AK) she was back at her house
11:30 (per RS) AK back at RS’s house; worried—door open
Back to AK’s together. AK opens door w/keys; went in together. Blood in bathroom.
? – AK and RS buy newspaper (?)
12:35 PM postal police arrive; hear washing machine cycling off
12:54 RS calls police
1:00 AK/MK housemate Romanelli arrived
[to include: AK, RS, PL arrest]
[statements, taped visit AK-EKM]
..the nice tabs and spacing are gone
OK, on your marks...get set...have at it...
I was looking for a website article that mentioned the money, converted to our American dollar...
Luke |
My fav handy-dandy currency converter. I'm sure the dollar has declined since the numbers were poster.
http://www.xe.com/ucc/
[PS some of us may have never bought into Swiss Prof + people in laundromat--got both tips on *ignore* just like that idiot's book]
ROB:I'mSORRYforkillingmorepixels
250.00 EUR=366.612 USD=177.701 GBP
[thanks a lot george fucking bush]
One small caveat with these timelines. I would allot more time for the rape & murder. 20 min does'nt seem long enough. Would'nt the rapist(s) savor their time more if no immediate rush. Some rapes go on for hours. The witness could have seen someone else, or their 10:30 time was off??
Would'nt the rapist(s) savor their time more if no immediate rush. Some rapes go on for hours. The witness could have seen someone else, or their 10:30 time was off??
DLW | 12.04.07 - 1:41 am
***
If there'd been 3, 5, or 6 people involved in the attack it would have been no problem to restrain her and prolong the attack. I'd think one of the planners would have considered they might need rope or duct tape, also.
It appears to have been a fierce battle. So fierce, that the lone attacker couldn't kill her on his first attempt. The killer was unorganized and had no help.
Pinecone, if the presumed lone attacker was disorganised and had no help, where did all these little helpers come from to clean the scene, even perhaps rearrange the scene to ensure LE headed in the 'right' direction? Was it a case of "oh no, MK's dead, let's play accessory after the fact!" "Cool!"
Loz, pretty much the first time I read her narrative. You know how "the truth has a certain ring to it?" Well her lies are like a foghorn. Then her apparent memory problems... obviously more lies to cover lies. Is there anything she wouldn't say to get clear of this, or anyone she wouldn't incriminate? I doubt it very much.
belle | 12.03.07 - 4:37 pm | #
well, I always knew something was off from reading this statement (in the old blog). it is just you couldn't exactly pinpoint what.
but after the blood/time thing occured to me, but the fact she was not clever enough (since it wouldn't have been the truth 7 maybe she was fcusing on ther evidence to explain away) to say something like "and i also noticed he had changed his clothes". It just became very aparrent of what sort of creature she is. she is a cold-blooded murderer IMHO. she is not just silly and it got out of hand. she murdered, or atleast instugated the rape of meredith, in cold blood. and her statement, can be read as easily as reading the alphatbet after that. people here may have gone though a wild patch, may have acted a little or a lot like AK in their yout, before the crime I mean. but trust me, the likes of you and I are not like this person. this person is a kind of 'creature', she isn't built like you or I. she is not just mildly sociopathic (as in maybe a bully), she is 100% imho. whether or not she meant to kill, since she can not muster up sympathy for mk, and ok even if they hated each other, she can not do this for MKs family. she is not capable. and now I am 100% sure of this.
Here is an exercise for forum members if you assume she knew the time of death before it's release, or even if you don't. if you just noticed it was strange for her to mention MKs death in the same paragraph as seeing blood on RS's hands, and then re-read her whole statement. Just see, just see if i al becomes a lot more clearer and a lot more easier to "read" or "understand2. Warning: you will feel great antipathy towards her after doing so, if you see it as I do.
bpcl, you are right that there is a certain stigma here that "foreigners are responsible for all the problems." I agree with your last post in this context, that PL would wish to distance himself from any sort of scandal, especially this one and its nature.
belle | 12.03.07 - 4:49 pm | #
yes, you see even if he had a clue or suspicions as to what AK was going to do. even if she tried to get him involved, or told him what she was going to do. And he told the police before hand, to stop it. or she texted him what she did as/just after she did it. who would believe him. especially before any crime, if he stopped it/told police before. I think in all probability, if she told him, she said it in person. to torture him. he was in a moral quandry, but cose not to get involved or 'burn' for it.
and you know, I am glad he didn't get fitted up for it in the end, if innocent which I think he is.
because AK is a certain kind of creature, a danger. she needs to be 'kept off the street' out of socities way, because she'd be a danger to them.
Those words may suggest THAT knife IS the murder weapon, and Amanda is trying to distance herself from it. (funny that only her prints/DNA was found on it.)
Luke | Homepage | 12.03.07 - 7:49 pm | #
agreed great observation. that and the fact it was found in a place they had both been, RSs house, yet both claim no knowledge of it. Either both, or one of them is lying clearly. It was either one of RSs special knives, or AKs 'cooking knife'.
Loz, while there's a lull in the action let me say I appreciate your 'stretches' of the 'what if'. Your 'thinking out loud' style is not normally one of my favorites but you often take my mind where it neglected to go. Are you a moonlighting Hollywood story-line consultant? Just kidding! Keep those neurons bouncing!
Loz "I think in all probability, if she told him, she said it in person. to torture him. he was in a moral quandry.."
I agree with Puzzler. Loz, you have a rare empathy. And you have helped us to see what PL may very well have been going through.
Xin - Great work on the timeline, thanks.
i do think there are people in this mix that know ak, but you never know who...xin
xin I am from the uk & don't know knox. I thought she was jewish cos in her 'drunk' video a boy in the background calls her a dirty jew
Loz, the "video boy's" racist slur shows the circles AK mixed in (doesn't means she's Jewish). but, apparently (allegedly), she attended hillel meetings at UW.
I think it's worth underlining AK's religious background - whether Catholic or Jewish - has no bearing on this case (unless it transpires that she's into some kind of Catholic-voodoo mix or is an occultist kabbalist).
This is for Meredith.
Her memory will always stand tall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i...related&
search=
kris & kermit on RSs disturbing admiration for the orphan serial killer (smacks of rhg?) and wanting an extreme sexual experience(s)
------
yes I think I said on the previous blog that I once knew a guy when I was 17 & he was weird (he was not on the austistic spectrum btw). anyway, he creeped me out once really bad & I told him & he told me to lighten up as he was only joking.
But he said to me if I ever thought about killing someone if i knew i could get away with it. Now I racted badly to that.
--------------
but what do you suppose AK or RS response or gut reaction would be if one said it to the other?
and also, if they are both sociopathic or have tendencies - I wonder if these people 'recognise' each other??
---Interviewed on the Italian TV news show Porta a Porta on Monday night, Guede's lawyer Valter Biscotti said: "Rudy saw the killer and is capable of identifying him.... ...Rudy's actions from the outside may seem unjustified but if you look inside you will see that he was in a very difficult situation."----
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith104.xml
AndyT | 12.04.07 - 8:40 am | #
thank you
it's possible she was interested in other religions or even had some jewish family members in her past *shrugs*. I agree, it's not important. I think maybe even if she did draw inspiration from certain reigions or occults it doesn't mean she was a subscriber to any of them?
In that 'slog' seattle paper blog thingy that xin posted (and good work on the timeline too), someone posted that as an april fools joke she had room mates dress in ski masks & assault a fellow room mate. They were probably making it up. but, just interesting to note
puzzler | 12.04.07 - 6:50 am | # thank you puzzler. maybe i will think out loud in word, then edit & shap. then post here. and read all that's been posted since my last visit, & comment on it all together
Kermit,
Oh yes, if you wouldn't mind posting that here it would be most appreciated though I must admit I'm American (don't blame us all for that idiot in the white house please) and I can't read Italian.
Loz, I'm going to try and find AK's written statement and re-read it though for the record, I think she is guilty as sin.
Also, posters here keep mentioning an occult scenario along with RS scaling the wall outside the house to get to Meredith's window? I hadn't read that anywhere else but then I could be missing a lot not being able to read any of the Italian news. I'm really curious if the "couple in the white car" is just a trick by the police to give AK and RS some sort of false security so they make a mistake...
xo
Peace all
corrine & others. after i have posted this, I am just going to browse, but not post unless of updates
this is the article that features RSs 'tried to climb' quote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2824508.ece
interesting statements from RS. he is covering his tracks or telling the truth in a very similar way to AK. some things about 'clothes', the bathroom, and (i think in the mail article below) a claim he believed amanda fed him a version of events which he claimed he fell for. never seen that before. and strangely no comments. (he also mentions AKs ‘plastic bag’, and throws in the 11pm approx T.O.D for good measure too in the Times article above).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1770
this article is only from the people, but it quotes a seattle 'source', probably untrue. it's about AKs 'strength', but find it hard to believe they'd get the 'scoop':
http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_...-
name_page.html
An article in La Stampa today--Patrick has forgiven Amanda (with the grace of God), and more interesting is a letter that A has sent to RS in prison.
I did a Google Transaltion, and that definitely has its limits. But the gist is typical Amanda. ("I have a cellmate that washes my clothes." "My mother is beautiful isn't she?"
Heres the link:
http://www.lastampa.it/
redazione...28141girata.asp
Pinecone commented:
"If there'd been 3, 5, or 6 people involved in the attack it would have been no problem to restrain her and prolong the attack. I'd think one of the planners would have considered they might need rope or duct tape, also.
It appears to have been a fierce battle. So fierce, that the lone attacker couldn't kill her on his first attempt. The killer was unorganized and had no help."
Herein lies the problem with this claim.
Organized v. disorganized:
It's basically the difference between "BTK" Dennis Rader and 'The Vampire of Sacramento," Richard Trent Chase. though some killers (such as Richard Ramirez) walk the thin line between organized AND disorganized.)
A gesture as simple as bringing the weapon(s) that was used in the commission of the crime, and then leaving with said weapon(s), proves the offender(s) to be quite organized. Though to your credit, the amount of evidence left behind also points to certain disorganized characteristics. This suggest to me that the crime was one of the following:
A) Unplanned
B) Premeditated, but NOT to the same degree by all participants; one or two may have not even known what the ultimate intent was.
C) Premeditated by unsubs who were categorically different (one organized, one disorganized; perhaps another unsub of either organized or disorganized..maybe even a bit of both...)
One other thing....
The classification of "disorganized" points as much to a killer's mental state as it does their organizational skills or habits. Most unsubs that fit a disorganized profile are prone to EXTREME acts of overkill, none of which seem to exist in this murder, from what we've been told thus far.
There is also no mention of it being a fierce battle. The information that has been shared with us has contrasted quite a bit (depending on the validity of the different source(s), but all accounts seem to suggest that Meredith wasn't savagely beaten, tortured, or mutilated. Hell... we don't even have a real definitive on the rape.
All we know is that a young girl was murdered and that one or more knives were used. Even if one was already at the scene, another was brought by the killer(s).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith104.xml
"Rudy tried to help Meredith but then he heard noises outside and fled.
"What we have to remember here is that Rudy is telling the truth, a difficult and uncomfortable truth but he is determined to come to Italy to tell the truth."
Mr Biscotti added: "Rudy's actions from the outside may seem unjustified but if you look inside you will see that he was in a very difficult situation.
"But he did get a towel and try and stop the blood from Meredith's wound before leaving the house."
Can't wait to hear his "truth," because at this point, I would almost put more stock in it than either Amanda's or Rafe's "truth."
One thing I noticed about Rafe's latest account of what happened that night, is that he seems to have allotted Amanda a hour to leave with the plastic bag, do the cleanup job, and return to get him.
Also, by stating that the bathroom was cleaned/tidy with exception to the blood/water mixture that was found in droplets, he seems to bee implying that the blood/water mixture was a byproduct of her having cleaned the bathroom.
So Rudy says that he tried to help her by blotting the bleeding with a towel? But yet he has also said at one point that he was in the bathroom, heard a noise, came out and saw a man with a knife (that he had an altercation with) and fled... Makes no sense...
Above in that article, he says that he was putting the towel on her bleeding, heard noises and fled.
That article left out this VERY IMPORTANT PART (toilet stuff below in full statement of Rafe). I think that this is evidence as to Amanda trying to imply that someone was at the house between the time she went back to Rafes and they both returned together to her and her roommates house.
Additionally, note that Amanda only told Rafe that she was scared because the door was open and there was blood in the bathroom She said nothing about the broken window and the ransacked room of her room mate Filomina.
Amanda would not have taken a shower etc, she would have ran out of that house like a bat outta hell, if that room had been like that before--don't ya think??
http://www.crimerant.com/?p=1217
Nothing else was out of place. Just then, Amanda went into the big bathroom and came out looking scared. She clung to me and said that when she was showering earlier, there had been stools in the lavatory bowl but now it was clean. I wondered what was going on and went out to see if I could climb up to Meredith’s window. I tried to force the door but I couldn’t open it. Then I decided to call my sister for advice because she’s a lieutenant in the carabinieri. She told me to call 112 but by this time the postal police had arrived. In my earlier statement, I told you a whole lot of rubbish because Amanda convinced me about her version and I didn’t think about the contradictions”.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...lient=firefox-
a
Extracts from Raffaele Sollecito's letter to his father
Dear father. What can I say about Amanda? During that time we were together she was elusive, I thought she was out of this world. She lived her life like a dream, she was detached from reality ... Her life seemed to be pure pleasure.
I don't know if it's fair that I have to pay such a high price for not paying more attention to the seconds and minutes of 1 November. But after this experience, believe me Dad, I will never smoke another joint in my life. I wait with faith for the results of the investigation which, I know for certain being innocent, will demonstrate what really happened. That I was not in that room when poor Meredith was killed. Poor Meredith. A quiet girl who exchanged few words with people, who I had little to do with, but who certainly did not deserve the end she met.
I try to understand what Amanda's role was in this event. The Amanda I know ... lives a carefree life. Her only thought is the pursuit of pleasure ... But even the thought that she could be a killer is impossible for me.
This honestly sounds more sincere than ANYTHING that has left the mouths of either Amanda or Rudy...
If they haven't already, LE should play the "We know that YOU (Rafe) aren't guilty of anything other than trying to PROTECT your girlfriend, which is something that any LOYAL boyfriend would do" card.
I don't know how the Italian judicial system works, but could a deal not be cut if someone was to admit to "only" helping in the aftermath?
I am starting to seriously reconsider that Rudy and Amanda were the primary figures involved and that Rafe got caught up in poor judgment, as well as his feelings for Amanda, a girl who was only the 2nd to show him sexual attention and affection. I am not sure I can accurately stake a claim in his need for affection, but I do feel that a void in female influence/touch was left with his mother's passing. I wish I could find details on how long he has been without a mother.
The videotape footage and DNA that seemingly places both Amanda and Rudy at the scene of the crime doesn't do the same with Rafe.
Also, it seems to me that both Amanda and Rudy are in cahoots with putting the onus on Rafe.
I honestly do not know what to believe anymore, but this is the feeling I woke up with this morning.. and it's a pretty strong feeling.
I think our opinions of Rafe have been colored by his morbid facebook/myspace photos and little more. Also, it doesn't seem that he has changed his story as many times as the media has inferred.
I've been having a hard time figuring him out... and I think this is the reason why.
reason for further speculation on my part...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2869155.ece
"Police
Here's RS's blog entry of October 13 (I can't find references to later entries, although Corinne mentioned October 17). My comments are in double parenthesis (()), while RS's original parenthesized comments are single (). I'm not Italian nor live in Italy (am in Spain) but I think I've the gist of it fairly well.
October 13
Everything changes
All blame ((guilt)) for ...
Dear readers,
Now the summer is over, but the heat?
The heat awakens in me an infinite multitude of memories associated with this summer and summers past. Travels, moments with friends, sacrifices dedicated to studies, etc. And this summer? Well this summer, I spent a lot of time with matters pending in my house. I intend ((am trying)) to accommodate my grandmother ((put up / arrange / settle my grandmother – maybe he was looking for a place for her, or just helping her get by in her own place – it's not clear if that was current in October, or one of his summer matters)), which has created no few problems for me (she is very ill and suffers loneliness); I fixed up my place with the help of my father; I have reorganized some bills, receipts and bureaucratic issues of secondary importance compared to my exams, which didn't go very well; indeed, I was about to enter a dark tunnel and dead-end, because my request to return to my beloved ONAOSI college was made too late and so I ended up with too many problems to stay in Perugia.
Fortunately everything is now drawing to a close: My grandmother is well, the house is fixed up ((don't know if he's referring to grandma's or his own)), I came back to Perugia to find a house, my father is well, I had two wisdom teeth pulled out, my sister is better (at least I think so) ... What's missing?
Well, I sacrificed my holiday for more noble causes but I do know that it was better to study more ((or perhaps: would have been better to study more)) given that I have not concluded anything good ...
It doesn't matter, because now I return to the habitat ((environment)) so hated in the past, yet which is now so sought out ... Yes, it's known ... everybody knows it: you never realize the importance of something until you lose it.
You know, I always saw college ((perhaps, school in general)) as a place where they castrate people, in fact, a place where there are 350 males and you can't let in anybody, seems to promote the curbing of instincts.
Nevertheless, there is something else ... Indeed there they wash and iron your clothes, they guarantee you 4 meals a day, infirmary, library, computer room, music room (you just start practicing if you know how to play some instrument), a chapel (something which doesn't interest me at all, but having a kind of church in the collage is nice), etc.
Certainly, all that you create, I know that it gives you tranquility ((peacefulness)) ((there's an abbreviated negative in the original which I think is RS's own typo / editing error. If not, the sentence could be in
I think that Amanda wrote to RS for one reason..She wants to make sure that she is on his good side. I say it is too late for that one.
I mean RS is in jail, and she doesn't want to talk about the case???!!! She wants to chit chat???
(RS's October 13 blog entry, continued)
Certainly, all that you create, I know that it gives you tranquility ((peacefulness)) ((there's an abbreviated negative in the original which I think is RS's own typo / editing error. If not, the sentence could be interpreted just the opposite: in spite of all you create, there's no tranquility.))
Indeed, once you start to study and follow ((attend)) lessons ((classes)), what else do you have to worry about?
Answer: the RECTOR! Damned ball-breakers ((as in testicles)), the rectors who rotate through college are thorns in your nuts. Yes, I am letting off steam, but it's the truth ...
They're always telling you: Move your car, you can't park here! You can't have so much stuff in your room! You haven't signed out before leaving, etc. This is obviously due to the difficulties of administration, but it creates an atmosphere of intolerance which leads to perpetual and conscious hatred. Every time the secretary tells you "move your car!", or "your friend must present a document in order to enter the study rooms" and so many other examples, your chest swells up to curse, like a hot air balloon, and when you are barely out of range of the porter in reception, you let it rip, singing a long prayer about the catastrophes and apocalypses that will befall all the employees, the rector and other bosses, and their respective antecessors who shuffle by ((or some other movement verb – can't find a translation for scandere / scandendoli)) one by one in descending order in relation to the time it takes to achieve the Holy Roman Empire ... ((I didn't quite get this, some Italian blogger smiled at RS's irony in this line. Lost on me)).
After you’ll surely be let-down a bit, but not completely ...
All this atmosphere of calm constructiveness has actually produced some famous persons. Well, yes, a Zelig ((Italian TV show)) comic whose name I don't remember was an Onaosino ((ex-student of a Onaosi college)), and also a Ferrari mechanical engineer was an Onaosino. But whom I proudly hold in most esteem of all of them is the Number 1 Onaosino ... The Monster of Foligno! ((Luigi Chiatti, convicted serial killer)) He was an Onaosino too!
At this point I can only think that in that college, dogs and pigs coincided, and all with a common factor: "depression". In fact, of these three characters, I met one (the engineer) and he lacked a woman (now I don't know how he let it happen, but I don't think being a Ferrari engineer is all that bad), while two guys ((couldn't translate "conticini")) found out that the comic was obsessed by relationships with the other sex, and as for the Monster of Foligno ... well I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't consider him a normal person ...
In the end, I think that being in college you can better manage your goals and achieve your degree ((diploma)) earlier (you don't have other things to think about). All of this is positive until they start getting
(last section of RS's October 13 blog)
In the end, I think that being in college you can better manage your goals and achieve your degree ((diploma)) earlier (you don't have other things to think about). All of this is positive until they start getting into your head and seek a valve to breathe, then sooner or later you find yourself at a crossroads that forces you to choose as happened to me: "I continue until exhaustion or do I do an Erasmus project?" Reply: "Erasmus!"
It all began this way and everything was going to finish this way; in the end that's normal. I've enjoyed so much being with thousands of people from all around the world; and yet in the end, I succeeded in bringing home 4 exams (not enough but better than nothing ...)
Would I do it again? Yes, another 100 times, but life is one thing; the Erasmus project is only a dream, pure light; you only have to worry about living but not how to live. That seems a rather ideal society that can not be concretely implemented. When you open your eyes it seems that all that remains was left as it was before ... The problem is that it will never be so, because by now you have changed and you can’t go back; you can only hope to encounter the day of the strongest emotions that have surprised you yet.
For now, you still need to construct in order to fulfill, to repay those who have given you everything without asking for anything in return, to repay those who are still giving to you at the present, in exchange for your company and your smile.
((the following closing, written in German))
Bye Erasmaten ((Erasmus students)), see you soon
I can not forget
Continued:
reason for further speculation on my part...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2869155.ece
"Police have examined Raffaele Sollecito's car, an Audi, for any traces of blood on the pedals. They have also conducted forensic tests at his ground floor flat on Corso Garibaldi, a hilly street close to both the University for Foreigners and the scene of the crime. They have taken away Mr Sollecito's collection of knives and violent Japanese comic books."
There, Rafe DOES own a vehicle.
If he was involved in a premeditated murder, he had the means to dispose of the body, which would be the most logical thing to do.
I can't explain the size 42 shoe print with the irregular pattern of Rafe's shoe's sole on the duvet WITHOUT putting him in the room, but I do think it was during the cover up. With as detail oriented as he appears (or within the ASD, as tru-cryme has speculated) I can't imagine the foot print being anything more than an oversight. This "scenario" also has Rafe being the one placing the duvet over Meredith's body, as an act of contrition and a sign of remorse.
I think the reason Rafe has yet to point the blame at Rudy is simply because he either doesn't know Rudy, only knows Rudy as a drug dealer, or has no firsthand knowledge of Rudy being there the night of the crime. It seems highly unlikely that Amanda would tell him Rudy was there.
IDK.... I struggle with this. I just doesn't see this the way I once did.
Rudy has told some truth's. He was at the house that night. He had sex or fooled around with Meredith, there was a money issue, he took a dump there, and he said he saw an Italian guy. What he hasnt said was that his mind was all screwed up. I'd say his batting average (which isnt saying much)is much better than the other participants combined.
Kermit | 12.04.07 - 1:04 pm | #
I think that RS was being sarcastic a lot of the time. Thank you so much for posting that.
Just can't figure this case out...They allow Amanda to write RS..To me thats strange,and then somehow the letter is made public?....Something does't make sense to me on this.................Thanks Kermit
kermit: grazie.
sounds to me like the kid had lots of anger in him, and a comfort in being a victim. his examples of stress at school are pretty superficial. wasn't doing that well in school. edgy.
at the same time, he is sensitive (perhaps identifies) to his grandmother's loneliness.
thurs and friday will be big days for all our prisoners.(is mk's funeral on friday?)
Rough translation if anyone is interested
Patrick has not answered to the questions
of the magistrate. And Amanda writes to
Raffaele: “Aspect of living of new”
PERUGIA
Patrick Dija Lumumba has chosen to take advantage itself of the faculty not to answer the congolese musician, in the course of the interrogation happened this morning in front of the titular prosecuting attorney of surveyings on the homicide of the English student Meredith kercher, Giuliano Mignini. To the escape from the Power of attorney the lawyers of the congolese, the lawyers Carl Pacelli and Giuseppe Sereni, ribadito that theirs assisted continue to declare themselves innocent and to reject to all the accusations in its confronts. The lawyers have moreover explained to have newly asked the substitute proxy who surveying to cargo of Patrick comes archiviata.
To the escape of the Power of attorney of Perugia the congolese musician addressing to the journalists has said: “God has helped me to exit from this thing and therefore in the name of God I have already pardoned”.
Continuous to believe in the Italian magistracy because I have not made nothing”, it has added Lumumba, that to the journalists it has confidato to be well.
Amanda: “Aspect of living of new”
“Raffaele Beloved as he goes? I do not want to speak on the case but today I have found that I can send one to you letter…”. The letter, published from “the Messenger” begins therefore, of Amanda Knox to Prompt Raffaele, the two boys in jail for the homicide of Meredith Kercher. “I am well - writes Amanda- Pazzo, not? …I am but aspect of living of new well…”. “I understand - he continues if you tasks good idea is not one to answer to me. And therefore I understand if I do not receive one answer. I am well. Crazy, not? I cannot imagine this situation, but we are here”. “The agents are kind with me - she still adds and I have one similar of dressed cell that I wash mine and “child” calls me. My mother and my Pope are here to Perugia. I do not know if it watches the tv. I not, because the journalists say things that they do not know nothing. My mother is beautiful, true? The man with she is my true father”. “And then - I continue I only want to know as he goes”. “I am well - aspect of living of new concludes but. I hope that you are well. Sincerely, Amanda
Apparently RHG says he can identify MK's killer...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,314962,00.html
My thoughts condensed:
Take it for what it's worth... either an ounce of gold or a grain of salt.
I am starting to seriously consider that Rudy and Amanda were the primary figures involved and that Raffaele got caught up in poor judgment, as well as his feelings for Amanda. By his own admission, has only had two girlfriends. I question whether Amanda's attention (and sexual openness) didn't impact Raffaele's judgment. I think anyone who has been smitten or has done something stupid in the name of what they thought was love can relate.
I can't overlook that neither the outside surveillance footage nor DNA recovered from the scene places Raffaele at the cottage during the time of the murder, while the other two left both prints and DNA behind, as well as their images captured by the camera.(allegedly)
I can't explain the size 42 Nike print with the irregular pattern (that matches Raffaele's shoe's sole) on the duvet that Meredith's body was wrapped in WITHOUT putting him in the room. However, I do think it was during the cover up, as opposed to the commission. I also speculated (there's that nasty word again) in the past that someone covered Meredith's body as act of contrition or a show of remorse. I suppose my scenario places the duvet in Raffaele's hands and makes him the last to leave the room, thus leaving his print on Meredith's bedroom door.
I think the single greatest factor in swaying my opinion was reading the exurbs of Raffaele's letter to his father. It seems more truthful and sincere than anything that has ever left the mouths of either Amanda or Rudy.
I see a scared and confused kid who is mortified that he disappointed his father in such a manner.
Even further, it seems that he isn't privy to the information that Rudy was involved with the crime, for he has yet to make a mention of Rudy (or any Black man, for that matter,) nor has he boldly pointed the finger at his girlfriend.
Rudy has implied that Raffaele is the real killer (short Italian with light brown hair with the knife) and Amanda has gone as far as saying he left the flat, raped/murdered Meredith, and returned in time for dinner (which Raffaele claims to have eaten earlier) with "fish" blood on his hand.
At this point, who knows? The 3 ring (3 nation) media circus has muddied this case worse than any I have ever witnessed.
It really isn't important whether I am right or wrong, cause when all is said and done, I just hope that Meredith and her loved ones have justice and those that are responsible are made accountable for their actions, as well as punished to the fullest extent of the Italian law.
I think Rudy is full of crap. IMHO I think he is taking advantage of the "black Card" and using it to work for him. It's rediculous!
Luke,
earlier on this thread I showed that Raf is privy to RUdy stuff--Raf said that he never even heard of the guy, never met him, saw him, or heard about him. I sited on article, but couldnt find the one I read with actuall quotes from raf concerning not knowing rudy at all. I think that was in an Italian newspaper.
I'm not following, Chris?
I didn't mean to say that he isn't aware of Rudy being a central part in the investigation, only that his "inside" knowledge seems to be based on what he saw in the aftermath, as well as what he heard from Amanda's lips.
Luke,
I have read your comments. I would like to pose a question vis a vis your theory which I subscribe to. And this is a rhetorical question. It is the fact that RS failed to answer either a telephone call from his father or a text message. Now the text message was pretty personal; this implies that both father and son communicated quite frequently. Now the reason I believe that the father sent the text message was that RS failed to answer his telephone call.
The idea that RS was so stoned out does not wash with me and neither does his statement that he was surfing the net. He does have an 'out' with me in the sense that if he was involved in the cover up, which I believe he was, then he could have been ashamed to follow up with his father the following morning or afternoon.
If you take the argument that he was surfing and so stoned out together, he must have been cognizant enough to answer either the telephone call or the text message. Finally, based on all the information that I have read, and given my knowledge of computers, if he was surfing during the time he said, he would have had to have left a trace somewhere. It simply impossible to get on a computer, log on to the internet with your login and password and not leave a single trace during 3 hours of activity.
I do not know what type of clothing he was wearing the night of the murder, but I have heard that the CCTV cannot really catch people wearing dark clothing very well.
Yes Luke, now I understand, thanks. fBy the way what were your thoughts concerning this post of mine?
chris | 12.04.07 - 12:52 pm | #
Luke,
By the way, it is good to see you posting here because you bring back the focus of trying to solve this murder which we have yet to do. Additionally, with the timeline that is being created by xin, together I really do believe we can do it.
xin,
Great job. RG said he arrived at the cottage at 8:38 pm and Meredith arrived eight minutes later or at 8:46 pm
Chris,
When I clicked the link, I wasn't directed to any specific post...
Did your post concern Amanda's desire to get on Rafe's good side and "chit-chat?"
If so, I think that is telling. I get the vibe that Rafe is just now realizing how deep he is in this and who he has to blame besides himself.
His letter to his father seemed to be the start of his epiphany, though I still can't understand why he would cover for a girl he had only known for a couple of weeks, not to mention clean up the crime scene????
bpcl,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I am greatly responsible for getting this off track, but I was just thinking out loud with some of my speculations.
I don't know why Rafe didn't answer the phone or return the text, but my best guess is he was baked out of his mind and passed out. Being on the PC is a much better alibi than being asleep. I bet he panicked and got caught in a lie. It will be interesting to see what comes of his meeting on Thurs. I expect his story to change quite a bit.
Luke, about RS...I hope you are right for his family's sake.
If the CCTV footage is indeed of AK, this would at least mean that they (AK RS)didn't go to the house together. I remember RS's lawyers asking the police to check CCTV footage from RS's house to Meredith's, thus making me think that he wouldn't be on it. If AK went home alone, and RS is not on any CCTV footage, then I think we have two possibilities; RS didn't go to Meredith's house that night or he arrived later and took a different route. Feel free to open any holes in my logic...
...also, I read (can't remember where, sorry!) that RS's mother died 2 years ago...
Luke,
Good, then we are in sync. And yes it will be interesting to see what he says.
It will also be interesting to see what RG has to say as well, once he appears before the Magistrate..
In my opinion, based on everything said here, and the conflicts in their individual stories, that all three are involved in the murder, one way or another. And I believe the Police know that and that is why all three are in incarceration. I do not know how the premeditation idea works here, but it is probably like you say, some more guilty than others(if there is indeed, a Mr. X and Ms. X in the picture)
If RS were so stoned out like you say, and just passed out, that could explain his inactivity and in reality, he was never really surfing the net. He lied for convenience or since he is a computer science student, it could give more credibility to his alibi (Unfortunately for him, as well as the other two, when you lie so much, it is difficult to believe any one of them whenever they say something new. That is why so many posting here cannot figure the case out, precisely because of there ever changing stories)
Any chance that Amanda was convinced that Rafflael killed Meredith w/wo Rudy, or Rudy convinced Amanda that Raffaele helped. And that Raffaele was equally convinced that Amanda snapped and killed Meredith w/wo Rudy.
The image of Amanda by the parking garage may convince me that she was across the street at 8:45 pm. She may have wondered around that locale for a while before entering the house, not knowing for sure who all was there.
Note: Luke's logic is far superior than mine.
BP asked a few questions ages ago....
AK's blood was found in the bathroom.
The '2 receipts' were taken from the supermarket on RS's street, not from his house. If I remember correctly, the first was for about 9euro's and the second 1euro 9cents. (which some newspapers claimed was the price of one of the bottles of bleach found at RS's house)
A local rag said on Sunday that a towel with Meredith's blood on it was found in the washing machine the morning after the murder.(local rag)
If RS was only involved in the 'clean up', I presume he would have said this by now. If not, why not? (I fear I may be a little naive but I don't understand this)
damian--good to see you
*
Great job. RG said he arrived at the cottage at 8:38 pm and Meredith arrived eight minutes later or at 8:46 pm
bpcl
*
Thanks. Hard work was done by AndyT and BeenHereAllAlong.
I'll add your note to the timeline when i revise and correct an (smallish) error later on.
It's a easy to get off-topic and perhaps a bit repetitive as we wait for what should be big news days on Th and Fri. I'm hoping, that we are getting close to somebody breaking. RGs return to Italy could be the catalyst for that.
None of them benefits from the lying and the stonewalling. None of them.
The horrors of decades in prison should kick in eventually. AK and RS could very well bankrupt their families in addition to many other obvious reasons why crime doesn't pay.
And to return to the repetitive topics. Amanda's insistence that she didn't kill Mez again emphasizes what she doesn't say.
No comments like "I didn't hurt" her, and other exclusions. She may have made the last bloody cut and then watched somebody else strangle her. The killer is the strangler, and AK only says she is not the killer. Fine distinctions.
I wonder if we will ever really know what happened in that room. It's like they've all taken some blood oath or something.
Meanwhile, the mystery couple recedes like the Swiss professor and the laundromat side trips.
Luke,
Then here is a possibility from what you are saying. RG stated that he had and appointment to meet Meredith at the cottage.(In reality, it is for AK and most likely for a drug deal. He stated that AK owed money to someone, maybe him and he was there to collect.) A female is seen entering the premises at 8:46 pm.(most likely AK) RG states that this was Meredith in order to cover her for the crime(He has said that AK was not in the house at the time of the murder) He would incriminate both himself and AK if he were to say otherwise.
AK needing money for the drug deal(She and RS was smoking all day, they stated, no more drugs left) she had already taken Meredith's money earlier in the day, after Meredith left to visit her friends. AK arranged an appointment to meet RG at the cottage( The phone call from Patrick told her she would not have to work that evening) to either pay or get new drugs(She had not told RS who is out stoned cold at his flat) The two girls have a discussion about the stolen money. RG goes to the bathroom.
When she comes out, Meredith is on the floor, dying from stab wounds inflicted by a knife of some sort.
RG had also stated that Meredith was moaning that AK stole her money and went to her room to confront her. The two devise a plan to make it look like a robbery and an attack. I am not sure what type of DNA RG left on Meredith, but if there is, he tried to simulate a rape, but it got worst. He runs out and leaves AK. AK with no one to help her out, enlists RS's help to further complicate the crime scene. (He is a master with bleach) and the rest is history. It might explain RS's statement, "If I am here, it is the fault of my girlfriend Amanda")
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05...-perugia/
2.html This is That CCTV shot of the alleged suspect(Amanda)again...First,how does one blow this picture up a little bit more?...and the second question is,after looking at it again,It looks like she is entering the Garage,not leaving...What do you guys and Gals think....?...
I cannot help but wonder if each participant knows enough incriminating evidence about the others, that none can accuse someone without being implicated themselves.
But, I think that once Rudy realizes he is the only one that at this point has irefutable forensic evidence against him, he may have nothing to lose by outing the others and their roles.
correction '..if RS was involved only in the 'clean up'..'
Luke, I imagine that being on the PC would be a better alibi than being asleep only if it could be verified.
Also, if he was involved in the 'clean up' one would imagine that rather than panicing, he would have had time to plan somekind of story.
I wonder if Rafe was really home on his computer, when Amanda called him and in a panic begged him to come over... Hence, him being dragged into this whole sordid mess... And because he was so "into" her and what she "did" for him in bed... he was apt to help with the cleanup... He could have left his comp. on thinking he wouldnt be at her flat for that long... Therefore he had an alibi in the computer... Although if he did leave his computer on.. Im sure it would have gone in to a sleep mode after being unattended for so long... Hmmm... I don't know Sounds plausable to me...
>>I cannot help but wonder if each participant knows enough incriminating evidence about the others, that none can accuse someone without being implicated themselves.
But, I think that once Rudy realizes he is the only one that at this point has irefutable forensic evidence against him, he may have nothing to lose by outing the others and their roles.
a2 | 12.04.07 - 4:49 pm | #
Will those of you who have been following the case closely please take a look at the timeline? it's not going to be a neat fit for now, but it may also help us keep track of story versions, by attributing statements to specific suspects as we are able, like bcpi just did...
example:
(RG says RG arrives at 8:38 pm and MK arrived 8 minutes later at 8:46 pm
For those who want to help merge and update, I am keeping this in MSWord on two pages, one each for each day, and printing out. may be easier to manage.
a2 | 12.04.07 - 4:49 pm | #
My message above is incomplete. I wrote that i think this is probably pretty close.
Also, RG may have the best understanding of how much they all have to lose, being a relatively petty criminal with experience with the law and the court. And, he did leave the country.
I think RS's failure to confess directly implicates himself. And it sounds like RG is fixin' to finger RS.
Xin...according to the Times, RS was speaking to his sister as the postal police arrived...not sure if this should be on the timeline.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2824508.ece
Yes. For now I think it should be, Damian. Sister Sol is kind of another missing link in this, and conversations that could have occured between will have more signficance later. He may claim that speaking SistaS is a form of reporting the crime.
Thanks. I'll add it.
If the college boy in Knox's Mytube video had called her a "dirty catholic", it wouldn't make any sense at all to refer to the epiphet as a "racist slur". Similarly, it makes no sense to categorise "dirty Jew" as racist because "Jew" or "Jewish" is not a race (a culture, perhaps; or a religion; or possibly an ideology--but not a "race").
The killer is the strangler, and AK only says she is not the killer. Fine distinctions.
I wonder if we will ever really know what happened in that room. It's like they've all taken some blood oath or something.
Meanwhile, the mystery couple recedes like the Swiss professor and the laundromat side trips.
xin | 12.04.07 - 4:45 pm | #
Has it been established that strangulation was the COD?? or is the bleeding to death still on the table?? I know the hyoid bone was broken, which is a U-shaped bone at the base of the tongue...does this mean stangulation??? Something that was stated about the bruising on her tongue and mouth...and that they don't mention any mushrooms in her stomach only the one mushroom in her esophagus..has me very puzzled. And yes, xin the mystery couple...major hmmmmmm on that one. Damian, so glad to see you back....has there been any local talk about the mystery pair??
Mike: It's a term of disparagement pure and simple.
I think so, Rhonda, but we should find a source for cause of death. It's central.
I wasn't disputing the disparaging nature of the comment--it is far from paraging--simply pointing out the erroneousness of categorising the slur as racial.
RS's statement about the phone call from his father is translated in the version I read as: "At around eleven my father phoned me on the house phone." RS never claimed he talked to his father although the general consensus is that he said he had and was found out. The important question is: how did he know that his father called if he wasn't at home? There's the real potential alibi.
So much points to this guy just making some really bad decisions. It doesn't really matter why that is, although the most obvious reasons invollve AK. His only lie was: "In my former statement I told you a load of rubbish because I believed Amanda's version of what happened and did not think about the inconsistencies." Since then his statements have yet to be proven false. I'm not excusing him of anything; he's clearly guilty and hopefully will get what he deserves. I'm just trying to fit the pieces into the puzzle.
I did read somewhere--not sure where--that the hyoid bone could've been broken by violently snapping her head back to cut with the knife. I don't think that an official cause of death has been released. Still hearing about the long process due to a slow bleed out.
As far as RS knowing that his dad had called--My caller id shows the name, number and time of any incoming call
a2: mine doesn't.
Mike Hunt
okeydokey
I know that this is an unpopular idea, but I still feel that the bruising of M's mouth and gums, the fact that she died on her knees and the incomplete rape add up to forced oral sex.
There is still a vague reference in most of the articles to 'sexual assault."rather than rape.We also hear about sexual games that M resisted, and that were carried out Hurriedly. Seems to me it would be an ultimate humiliation for M, and would fit with the "interesting aspects" that we heard after the autopsy.
Again, just my opinion...Actually hope im wrong.
Don't know if RS' caller id is like mine or not Puzzler; but if it is, he'd have a complete record of who called and when.
The picture of Rafe driving looks like it was taken in the US. A stop sign, a sign that says "Camping" are in the background. Has it been stated that he took trips to US? He is driving in the picture.
It was said that Rs's father used to call every evening.. and Rs said the first time that he actually answered the call if I remember well
The US stop sign is official in the EU. Camping is almost universally (in the Europe I know) used as well.
a2: I've also had that disgusting feeling because of the various ways the sexual activity has been characterized in the accounts. Not even US ex-presidents understand what "sexual relations" means.
Yup, fran, I recall this as well:
>Rs said the first time that he actually answered the call if I remember well
fran <
Jumpy, yes, I read that he had traveled to California recently too, where of course, he would fit right in.
To those who marvel that someone would murder for $300, although we widely agree that MK was not specifically murdered for money, come to LA sometime. They kill for pocket change if you're in the wrong spot at the wrong time. And the Clutters--motive was robbery planned since prison, and they got, like 20 bucksor something (the *In Cold Blood* Kansas family slaughter). I would love to still think that $300 is not enough for murder, but the native Angeleno in me says: HAHAHAHAHA.
puzzler good to see you as well.
On the moritification of MK--ladies, it's a bit true, right? that each of us is humiliated and mortified when we think of what MK may have experienced in her final moments, all while perhaps as many as 5 people looked on or in?
Yes, President CLinton taught junior high school girls that oral sex is (depending on your definition of what *is* is) not sex. He gets high fives from 13-year old boys all around.
Puzzler, Yes, I've been at a loss as to the strange way that the sex has been portrayed--If it had been a rape, it would have been reported that way. It has not.
And the notion that Rudy did have sex with her/didn't have sex with her. And (lol) i did think of the presidential parsing of the phrase "sexual relations". For all the good he did and is doing, this will probably be Clinton's most long lasting legacy...
((Off-topic side drack)) I've had some experience in helping kids with English as a second language: rich, poor and the gangsters. I kicked a kid out one day for sticking his hand down a girl's blouse in class to cop a feel, and EVERYONE was pissed because they (subject boy, and victim girl) were such *really good friends.* I said I wish someone would do that to me, sis is a civil rights lawyer and I would take everyone of you little cuties down.
Thanks for the info on Rafe's mother's passing, Damian.
I believe that her passing being fairly recent lends further credence to what I've laid out. Anyone who has lost someone close to them can relate to the gambit of emotions we run in the months and years that follow. Who knows what Rafe's mind state was that night, but I really wouldn't peg him as a killer had I never seen the bizarre photos of him playing dress up.
IDK, Lord knows I've been wrong before...
Don't want to be pedantic, but the phrase "dirty Jew" is a racist (anti-Semitic) slur - at least here in Europe where it originated. Granted, in America it may have lost this undertone.
http://www.yourish.com/2005/12/17/454
"To Frieda, who survived the Holocaust but was unable to verbalize the horrors that she went through, the phrase “dirty Jew” stood for all the Jew-hatred she endured. The phrase “dirty Jew” spoke for the untold horrors she went through."
meman
"This is That CCTV shot of the alleged suspect(Amanda)again...First,how does one blow this picture up a little bit more?...and the second question is,after looking at it again,It looks like she is entering the Garage,not leaving...What do you guys and Gals think....?..."
Open the image in an application like The Gimp or Photoshop. To resize the image upwards, use the resample option.
Adjusting the "curves" allows the ratio between the darkest and lightest parts of the image to be compressed. Sometimes this can appear to show more detail in the image. Playing with the curves in this image does make it seem as if some facial detail is present (but not enough to clearly identify the subject by facial features), which of course means that the subject is walking toward the camera (walking in to the garage) not walking away from it (not walking out).
However, there is something about the curve of the body, the tilt of the head and overall poise that makes me think that this is indeed Amanda Knox.
Thanks Mike,I will try that..
Xin, sad but true. The amazing thing is that the girls think that this empowers them....
Luke, I also find it hard to believe that RS is a murderer. Rudy's terror and flight seem so much more real a reaction to being part of a violent murder. A and RS' calm and even glee during their shopping trip...Also, I go back to the cell phone conversation with A telling RS that she cannot do it anymore, that she can't bear it...Seems as though he was complicit in some way.
Ok--Luke and all, this is something I really want to know your thoughts on (as I asked above)and am repeating more clearly here:
My theory: Amanda was trying to establish that the crime took place, before she got to her apt and took a shower that morning, and continued taking place after she left to return to Rafes.
Evidence from RAFs statement as follows which is posted at this link, along with Amandas statement.
http://www.crimerant.com/?p=1217I
THIS IS FROM RAFES STATEMENT
"She left at around 10.30 and I went back to sleep. When Amanda left, she took an empty carrier bag, saying she needed it for her dirty washing. She came back about 11.30 and I remember she had changed her clothes. She had her usual bag with her”.
According to Sollecito, this was when Amanda told him she was worried. “She told me that when she got home, she found the door wide open and blood stains in the small bathroom..."
Qustion: If she was so worried, how could she have felt comfortable enough to take a shower in that house?
The pair went back to the flat together. This is Raffaele Sollecito’s version of next few moments: “She unlocked the door and I went in. I noticed that Filomena’s door was open. There was glass on the floor and the room was a mess..."
Question: Amanda never mentioned to Rafe that Filomena's room was ransacked, and that it had a broken window. Rafe noticed it right away, why didn't she? Cause she is establishing that it happened since she was last there.
RAFE STATEMENT CONTINUED "..Just then, Amanda went into the big bathroom and came out looking scared. She clung to me and said that when she was showering earlier, there had been stools in the lavatory bowl but now it was clean..."
Question: Amanda is implying that the toilet got flushed since she was last there, that there is evidence that someone was at the house since the time she just left and returned with Rafe??
Is this true, that filomenas room was ransacked and the window broken, and the toilet was flushed in the time that it took for Amanda to go to Rafes and they return to the house???
Here's a tweaked image: it doesn't look much better here, I'm afraid.
http://aycu21.webshots.com/
image...96683000_rs.jpg
Chris,
I personally do not place stake in anything that leaves Amanda Knox's mouth. You make a very good point about whether she'd be able to take a shower if she was worried. I say, HELL no. What woman would get undressed (a position of extreme vulnerability)and climb into a shower, if they didn't feel completely comfortable and safe? Had she noticed blood in the bathroom or elsewhere, I doubt she would strip down and lather up... that's the stuff of horror movies right there.
I was not under the impression that the toilet was ever flushed. I thought they were able it extract Rudy's DNA FROM THE FECES?
Chris: Thanks for the RS excerpts. I'm trying to make abundle with as many *original* docs as I can, with Steve's commentary and first wave newsclips for my niece, Dr. Forensic Psychologist, who has expressedinterest and I will see soon. She's got research, and (hardcore) prison experience, a good package; dissertation relates to adults with certain types of adolescent behavior patterns. Brainy legal and med parents too, so she brings that -- PLUS THE bonus points that come with disfunctional family.
Original docs welcome, I guess I can make a checklist for us after I get this stuff together, since it will be done.
I still need a clean enough doc on Amanda's ORIGINAL statement. Is anybody keeping key first-source stuff stashed away? TY.
Maybe the shit that they got from the DNA from was from a partial sample(Stains left inside the bowl).......Thanks Mike,once again.....Yes That cam capture,shows at least at that point she is heading inside the Garage
correction: insert> criminals
...dissertation relates to IMPRISONED adults with certain types of adolescent behavior patterns
i think they found an *ass napkin*
[here we go back into the shit discussion)
[here we go back into the shit discussion)
xin | 12.04.07 - 7:02 pm | #
lol xin it's unavoidable...what about all of her statements about it at the police station....AK wants it in the picture.
meman | 12.04.07
--I think they got DNA from leftovers too, And Toilet paper
Luke--I do not believe Amanda either
XIN-- upthread I posted link to Amandas written statement to the police too. I think it is a great idea to just use what they have said, not through the press, but letters, statements, and work only with that.
Ok Group..I am out of the shit bizz...I thought somebody had posted a question,and I just added a possible senerio..........
I think that Amanda kept repeating the toilet crap stuff at the police station because she was trying to establish that the crime was happening that morning--not that evening.
grabbed em thanx chris
plus i'll give her the timeline as it stands tonight at midnight.
i told her it was NOT academic or official, just a more casual conversation. one little insight is good enough for most of us. i think she'll find RS interesting.
xin.....also please give her an invite,if she has the time,to drop in out of our crime mystery forum
meman: of course, after i have steve delete some of my comments like disfunctional family. she's quite delicate, actually. you would NEVER look at her, and think...(what it is, where she works)
Good...............You Hear That Steve!
She's either lying through her teeth or a very very very sick girl to ramble on like that and call it an "official" statement.
I can honestly say that as further suspects developed in this case, Amanda is the only person I never considered as being anything other than an accessory to the commission of the crime, at the very least.
Not even for a second did I think, "poor girl, wrong place, wrong time." Most of that has to do with her behavior immediately after the murder and then in the following weeks.
I'm not placing too much emphasis on her creative writing or pictures. Sure, you can tell a lot about a person through their words and photos, but not everyone who writes a sexually violent story is going to rape someone and not every person who poses with a knife is going to stab someone.
I don't think I'm gonna have much else to offer until Rafe talks to the magistrate on Thurs.
Not "either-or" Luke, but both "sick" and a "liar"
It's interesting to me that NO ONE close to AK has proclaimed her goodness or innocence (as with RS's dad): she's been in trouble before, and i'm not talking about parties on the (fraternity/sorority row).
Chris,
Amanda's behaviour is MOST suspicious. thank you
what evidence is there that AK is Jewish? i am not aware of any, other than assumption based on the video "dirty jew" remark, and a (rather conditional) comment about AK and Hillel activities from the Seattle Stranger Slog. neither of these are the least reliable, for reasons below.
if someone has some other information and thinks it is relevant to the case, please provide. otherwise, why not drop it from this discussion, as like the ill-founded Meredith's menses speculations, it adds nothing other than 'noise' to our efforts. IMO.
about the "you dirty jew" comment from AK's MySpace video:
- on the Seattle Strange blogs "Slog" relating to this crime, someone remarked that this phrase was likely a quote from the TV show "South Park". it is allegedly a 'signature phrase' of a stock character on that show (not a TV watcher, i can't confirm). see the Slog entries following the earliest Stranger articles on the case.
- if you check AK's list of 'favourite things' on her MySpace page, you will find "South Park" listed. it wouldn't be too much of a stretch that her buddies would like the same shows.
- watching that video and the verbal exchanges going on, the remark did not seem directed at AK but more likely to the male seated next to her, or to whoever was doing the filming. watch the film again and see what you think.
- before all things amanda disappeared from public view, the fellow next to her in the video was identified elsewhere as someone she had formerly dated.
re the 'Hillel' remarks:
- the comment was along the lines of "just because AK attended Hillel events at the UW" ... what was this based on? speculation? i could find nowhere else on the Stranger site where there was mention of AK and Hillel, or AK being Jewish - OTHER than the aforementioned "you dirty Jew" remark being referenced.
- since there was no basis, no context for the remark - it could have been an inference, a cheeky way of referring to AK's supposed Judaism.
- even if she did, indeed attend some Hillel functions - proves nothing. i have attended them at the very same Hillel as a guest of Jewish friends. i went to hear an interesting lecturer, to join my friends at a dinner. i am not Jewish.
- take into account the context of the "Slog". it is a very irreverent, outrageous blog. more play than fact-oriented.
so, above are the only sources that i'm aware of that someone could use as a springboard to suggest that AK is Jewish. too flimsy for me, and i don't see the relevance of this particular "is she or isn't she?" anyway.
I think RS and AK planned MK's assault together. I don't see RS as an accessory trying to help his girlfriend.
RGH's behavior, running from the house, fleeing the country, admitting he was in the house and had sexual relations with MK, changing his story to show he tried to "help" MK, all show he was not part of the planning. He was set-up, much like PL, altho I think PL is more intelligent than RGH.
It's not clear to me how well RGH knew AK, RS and MK. In some accounts, he was described as living on the water (homeless?). If so, he was a vulnerable target for AK and RS. Being a drug dealer even more so because he's a social pariah.
So far, only 2 people admit to being in the house that evening, RGH and AK who later changed her story.
was the toilet bowl half-empty or half-full?
for those wondering, it was described as full of feces.
AK described this accurately to the police. however, RS told the police that the toilet was clean.
a difficulty for me in the media discussions has been that they all too often just refer to "the bathroom" or "the basin". there were 2 bathrooms in the flat - one shared by AK and MK, and another, which I assume that the other 2 women shared.
one bathroom is described in at least one report as "the larger bathroom".
i haven't been able to keep straight which evidence was gathered from which bathroom.
for example - did AK shower that morning in the bathroom with the blood and feces in it? or the other bathroom?
it is beyond bizarre that she'd shower in the 'dirty bathroom' without flushing that toilet.
i have wondered about her reportedly repeating "the sh/t" at the police station. because she found it surprising? horrible? or (since RS reported that the toilet was clean) was she repeating it as she realised that she had not been able to finish cleaning that bathroom by the time the postal police arrived?
so many questions.
the timeline effort is a good one, thanks to you guys setting that up for all of us. i'm looking forward to the psychologist's contributions. xin, is that your niece? what is her area of specialty, clinical, counselling, or research?
On the issue of "Jew"....On the Seattle pi blog board,supposly,someone who was there the night the youtube video was made....said the remark was not made to Amanda,but to the guy at her side...the one seated next to her..with the black hair....Believe it or Not..
jw | 12.04.07 - 8:27 pm | #
-- It is beyond bizzare that she would even shower in the house if she was scared!!! I really think that she totally tripped herself up right then and there.
That was me the Anonymous | 12.04.07 - 8:59 pm ,
just on a different computer.
Andy T wrote:
Don't want to be pedantic, but the phrase "dirty Jew" is a racist (anti-Semitic) slur - at least here in Europe where it originated
***
I can't speak for the entire US and all the various age groups and subcultures, but people that I know and have associated with, Jewish and non-, would all consider it offensive. I should have stated that in my earlier post. Even if that phrase is from some TV show popular amongst uni kids, that does NOT make it benign. When I heard it on AK's youtube/MySpace video, I winced.
that does NOT make it benign
jw--YEP! I agree totally.
The thing that amazes and frightens me about AK taking a shower in her flat in the morning, is that IMO, she knew that M's body was in the room right next door wrapped in the duvet. How could she go back there and actually shower. She'd have to be pretty cold blooded to be able to do that.
Chris, I agree - "oh, the house door is open, my flatmate's door is uncharacteristically locked and she doesn't answer the phone, and Oh! Look at the blood! i'll just grab a shower and then call my BF to see what to do." huh ... ?
i agree with Emily that the 2 most likely co-conspirators on this are RS and AK. They seemed so very "tight". I don't see it likely that AK would be acting with RGH to set up RS.
also, if the press reports are true that an informer told them that AK owed her drug dealer money - then perhaps RS was gonna help her out with her two 'problems' with some scenario, to what extreme was planned, i have no guess. he seems as though he could be a very controlled personality who could 'snap' (after reading his oct 13th blog i can see this possibility).
but with virtually *nothing* on RS, his background, interviews w friends, in the press - he could be many things with equal (lack of) evidence.
jw | 12.04.07 - 9:14 pm | #
-- no statement even that her flatmates door was locked.
That was me again. I was a saying that additionally, Amanda didn't even mention that Merediths door was locked...But she did say that she called her and the other roomate. So basically, she is setting it up again, that meredith door was locked after she she showered and left, cause anyone else would have tried to enter meredith room, before trying to reach her on the cell.
Is it possible that AK wore RS's shoes back to clean up?
She wore his underwear why not his shoes as well.
Not to bring this subject up again. But there is an old saying that goes "don't shit where you eat". This sounds exactly what Amanda did.
Both figuratively and literally.
jw said:
"but with virtually *nothing* on RS, his background, interviews w friends, in the press - he could be many things with equal (lack of) evidence."
Am I correct in noting there has been NO mention of ANY friends of Rafe's ever in any of the press reports since this terrible crime happened? At the very beginning, there were some friends of AK back in the states commenting in disbelief re: her possible involvement, and yes, within days they shut up. But nobody has really spoken up for Rafe except his father & attorney. I wonder if Rafe has many or any close friends. AK seems like a total departure for him, he said so in so many words, and I think she orchestrated their meeting and pursued him without him being the wiser. His social skills were not very sophisticated from what I can tell. Yes he can write, but seems to have trouble with interactional relationships, thus has very few of them. You think?
But nobody has really spoken up for Rafe except his father & attorney.
TruCryme | 12.04.07 - 11:21 pm
Maybe his friends fear being accused as accomplices if they speak up for RS. After all, they can be locked up for a year with no cause other than suspicion.
On the other hand, if there were any horrible rumors out there about RS, they'd have made it to print a long time ago.
Pinecone: You are certainly right about any salacious rumors rising to the top, and we are just speculating, even on RS's being a *loner*.
The only interaction we have been able to observe is daddykins +
-with sister
-with AK
-AND, with the (unidentified) caller who was angry at him when RS told him (caller) that he was speaking with a journalist. (I believe it was the writer from the Daily Mail, who sort of stumbled into a one-on-one interview with RS, as they both stood outdoors at the House of Horrors on the day of the police discovery of the crime.) One good guess was that the caller may have been Mr. Giallo,of the mysterious couple, witness/suspects #4 & #5. Otherwise, nada.
OK, I'll hold my nose and ask, what was the *Friends* scene at RS's MySpace page? Anybody remember?
anon/chris
If you are seen as the the psycho in the shower, the psycho and the shower scene aren't as frightening, especially if you haven't seen psycho.
(jw she's a phd forensic psychologist in law enforcement, all of it clinical and research and prisoner interaction. gen x-er. relevant research & population to our interests. blond.)
>Is it possible that AK wore RS's shoes back to clean up?
She wore his underwear why not his shoes as well. Monica Williams<
Good one. Let's hope his defense attorney is reading.
A suspect due to be extradited to Italy in connection with the murder of British student Meredith Kercher can identify her killer, his lawyer has said.
"Rudy saw the killer and is capable of identifying him," said his lawyer Valter Biscotti, during an interview on Italian TV. "Rudy told me that he saw a man coming out of Meredith's bedroom, who was smaller than him.
"There was a struggle and he knows he was Italian. The man said to him in Italian: 'You're a black man, you will get the blame.'
"What we have to remember here is that Rudy is telling the truth, a difficult and uncomfortable truth but he is determined to come to Italy to tell the truth."
Mr Biscotti added: "Rudy's actions from the outside may seem unjustified but if you look inside you will see that he was in a very difficult situation.
"But he did get a towel and try and stop the blood from Meredith's wound before leaving the house."
There is so much passion and ridiculous speculation going on here now. It is like "I have to be right and you are completely wrong" posts from such arrogant posters as rob, pinecone, BD, xin, AndyT, RobertM and endless others needless to mention.
Obviously, none of you are going to listen because your purpose of being here is only to secure yourselves as some sort of authority or prescient speculators of some kind of truth.
Regardless, you should all look at yourselves and see the same things that you are accusing all the persons in this crime as doing, are in fact the same things that are in your own dark mental processes of your your own brain at one time or another. This is all I will say as you all will obvious continue to pontificate until the media drops its interest and you have nothing left to speculate on.
.
This is all I will say as you all will obvious continue to pontificate until the media drops its interest and you have nothing left to speculate on.
Sounds vaguely familiar.
RS didn't have many friends, was relatively inexperienced with girls, and was socially awkward.
So was Ted Bundy.
yeah it's back!
what do yu people think is more likely of these three. It just struck me that, in AK & RSs statements, there are a few points of commonality & probably agreed upon points like the plastic bag, 11pm but NOT checking the clock, the movie Amelie, etc?? don't know if the strategy s agreed upon, to blame the other while protesting their own innocnce??:
* Rafe & AK are as guilty, & sociopatic as each other?
* Rafe or AK is being intimidated by one or the other (and does this explain RHG trying to vindicate AK against killer Rafe??)?
* Rafe & AK are innocent, but not of the cleanup or getting MK assistance?
---------
and to the non-italian readers who don't know, the recent letter AK sent to RS, began "BELOVED Rafaele".
OT OOOH. THIS CRIME WAS INSPIRED BY RS's hero (as i suspect xin & a few others knew):
""But, as Tullia Zevi, the president of the Italian Union of Jewish Communities, pointed out in a June 8 letter to the editor of Il Messaggero, the article's conclusions were so ambiguous that they could be "potentially dangerous."
The Messaggero article was headlined: "From History, Chilling Similarities with the Murder of Simone." A subhead read: "Monster of Foligno, the Hypothesis of Ritual Murder." The article mentioned the 15th-century cases of Simon of Trent, in northern Italy, and Antonuccio of Bevagna, a town near Foligno, in Umbria. "The first (victim), later beatified, was kidnaped the evening of Good Friday and died drained of blood during a macabre rite," the article declared. "The other, instead, is said to have been seized and wounded," the newspaper said.
The blood libel, or accusation that Jews murdered Christian children and drained their blood for use in ritual, particularly in making matzot for Passover, dates back to medieval times and has been one of the most persistent and irrational anti-Semitic superstitions over the centuries. The accusations have sparked mass persecutions, anti-Semitic hysteria and other horrors, down into this century. Perhaps for this reason, the Jewish community here has been quick to respond to any apparent attempt to revive or lend credence to this superstition.
The Messaggero article, by Gilberto Scalabrini, described in detail the story of Simon of Trent, a 2-year-old who was found horribly murdered on Easter Sunday 1475. "How was Simon of Trent killed? To reread this story gives one goose pimples, because the details have a terrible resemblance to the fate of the little boy from (Foligno)," he wrote. But while he noted the "popular superstition of the time" and described the Jews who were executed for the murder as "presumed criminals," he went on to gave a blow-by-blow description of the crime, citing "documents" detailing how the Jews of Trent, supposedly in the synagogue itself, carried out the murder.
He then quotes a Jewish historian as recounting the case of Antonuccio of Bevagna, in 1485, in which a child accused a family of local Jewish bankers of kidnaping him and trying to drain his blood. That story, however, appeared to have been linked to attempts at the time to close down the Jewish bank. The case was dismissed. "Surely they do not have any precise analogy to the murder of Simone Allegretti," Scalabrini wrote. "But 'a sick mind" could have read them and codified them in order to commit a ritual murder. "The blood of Simone, in fact, was never found, even though he lost about 3 liters," the reporter wrote.""
now, what I wanna work out, is how complicent/willing was AK & RHG with RS!! yes, the sand mssgs MAY STAND. A trident(all 3), S.I.N, don't know what LL/
cont..
now, what I wanna work out, is how complicent/willing was AK & RHG with RS!! yes, the sand mssgs MAY STAND. A trident(all 3), S.I.N, don't know what LL/
now, what I wanna work out, is how complicent/willing was AK & RHG with RS!! yes, the sand mssgs MAY STAND. A trident(all 3), S.I.N, don't know what LL/
xin | 12.05.07 - 12:46 am "I believe it was the writer from the Daily Mail, who sort of stumbled into a one-on-one interview with RS.."
And it's interesting how the Daily Mail has had the most symphathetic coverage of RS ever since.
He seems to have won the journalist's sympathy.
wtf
yes, the sand mssgs MAY STAND. A trident(all 3), S.I.N, don't know what LL/
my mssgs being cut off. wanna give the url & wondering how complient/complicent AK & RHG are. if the sand mssg stand(a trident) they each were in on it
from http://64.233.183.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=7&
gl=uk
http://www.crimezzz.net/
serialki...I_luigi_jpg.jpg
the face of "The Monster", RS's hero, who himself was a copy-cat murderer.
should i keep the info to myself. or sing it like a canary all over newspaper/new site mssg boards.
but being responsible by still questining/leaveing open RHG & AKs complicientcy in conspiracy to murder, with only RHG who panicked when it ACTUALLY came to it, unless he only knew of the rape but i find it unlikely as he would not seek to vindicate AK. I think both he & AK freaked out? but then, AK she does not seem remorseful. RS=driving force alone/"married 2 AK"????????
just so you know, I won't link this crimeblog like last time, i went back and edited i out of posts i mde on mirror & sky.
but just incase there are insiders here, mail me, or comment here. should i keep quiet?
i know i prolly shouldn't post to people about my vision & the sand things
actually can AK be that bad, she likes the beatles. not in an ironic way, she may still have tendancies, but it's just, she likes music. she puts it on in he background to unpack in her blog. it's "chill" as she says??
Xin et.al. Thanks for the hard work on the "time line." I have to say, however, that a good chunk of it is actually just one very hypothetical if not totally imaginary scenario for the crime. I would REALLY appreciate a simple list of "facts" based on: what do we think we know and why do we think we know it (i.e. the source). Maybe each of us could contribute our own partial list that we all could benefit from.
Loz, you will have to show that RS really did think of this guy as his hero. I know he mentions him, but was he RS's "hero"? (I'm less than certain that he was. And if he wasn't, the connection you're making is a rather tenuous. But maybe I missed something...)
yes, he says he most admires this guy, of all the 'graduates' of his orphanage. *I am sorry, but personally I believe the blood-letting & the time of around good-friday (it was the night before good-friday was it not? verify please I am not religious), and the playing with blood you mentioned, whether blood was purposefully let, whether she was drained on purpose I do not know. but it's all too much of a coincidence.
* I will be careful how I word. instead of calling him his hero, I will merely mntion his blog comment, and the connections. *source - I don't really think this. are you lot playing a joke.* why are you "encouraging" me into this direction. as the source didn't reveal it to me, or if did, I couldn't hear Mez enough to know. It was YOU and not my subconscience that really hinted to me & helped me work it out. **also advice please - if you don't have many posessions or money & get sued for libel yourself, and can not pay. I do not mind paying over time in installments if that's what happens, but i am poor, from a single-parent family now. I want to know, will my mothers possessions be taken away from her* you see, I know the trial will get to the truth & the police. it's all there yeah. So, is it really worth the risk for me prsonally? thank you for your guidence
just why can't you post it instead of me releasing the info.
I don't think I will get anything, a thing, outta white-noise. I don't even believe it.
I believe you lot worked it out, and pointed me to stuff.
so why?
is it a joke. ta xxx
are you journos who can't say anything?
you see, all I saw was i told who did it, and that AK was in on some part of it.
not all of this stuff.
going for a cig
look, if you ar simply just bound by libel for whatever reason. just say. don't say the reason. just confirm. mail me even. and please, let me know about libel law (not the jewish thing to do with libel) with specifics to how it can affect me & my family. please, thankyou.
Oh dear...
prophecies or revelations which make known the sins of others, or which announce the predestination or reprobation of souls are to be suspected
ok so it's stupid nowo. and i don't believe it one bit of it.
so, is it a joke?
Loz, none of what you've said is libelous, IMO.
Concerning libelous statements:
----The statement alleged to be defamatory must also be a false statement of fact. That which is name-calling, hyperbole, or, however characterized, cannot be proven true or false, cannot be the subject of a libel or slander claim. The defamatory statement must also have been made with fault. ----
So, as long as you indicate that what you write is not a statement of fact, you should have no problems.
I went back and searched for RS's comments (provided by Kermit). Here's the bit on Chiatti, the serial killer.
RS: "...But whom I proudly hold in most esteem of all of them is the Number 1 Onaosino ... The Monster of Foligno! ((Luigi Chiatti, convicted serial killer)) He was an Onaosino too!..."
In terms of RS's defense, these comments are unfortunate. If the prosecution refer to them, doubtless RS's defence lawyers will argue they were written in jest.
okay AndyT, I have a lot to think about. thank you very much.
Have you got a web-link for RS blog comments, or a mirror of it.
why are you so shy as to say why you chose to like point out possible connections, but not to publicise them yourself.
Loz said: Have you got a web-link for RS blog comments, or a mirror of it.
I stumbled on a Google cache of RS's blog a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.google.com/search?q=c...lient=firefox-
a
Unfortunately, it has now been wiped. I used that to do the rough translation yesterday of his Oct. 13 post (as saved in that cache - Corinne mentioned a possible later post, maybe on Oct. 17).
The cache, which I saved on my disk, has earlier posts (Aug. 20, Aug. 9, Aug. 6, May 7).
Most of the text of the post which I translated can be found in the middle of
http://caffenews.wordpress.com/2...com/2007/11/08/
Otherwise, I can send you a ZIP with the blog, if you want it, or maybe we could ask Steve (¿¿Steve, can you hear??) if he would want to stick it in with the mirror of AK's blog. Obviously, it's all in Italian.
OK kermit thank you.
are you all deeply in italy? or deeply in reporting? which one? Do you go against any organisation, are you a part of it?
and do you think for instance that the person clearing his blog is merely a friend, family. Or bigger.
and why oh why don't you publicise it, more than on this comments page?
I am emailing xin
hey, how come you don't make the British Press aware of this. why haven't they run the story?
just an idea
Loz, don't get too worked up, we're all just trying to understand a complex crime, and (I at least, and others who have said the same) help in clarify what happened, which is what I'm sure Meredith's family want most right now, even before talking about justice.
Xin, you were looking for "original" documents (really, there's not much original on Internet). You may already have Amanda's "the cops hit me until I said PL" statement, but here it is (it's probably upstairs in this blog, or in the original thread, too)
Steve, or somebody, could set up a link page of more or less reliable documentation. (I'm assuming the Telegraph is in that category).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith222.xml
the draw AK has sent to RS... a "secret message"?
http://thumbsnap.com/v/fOkHvKEH.jpg
ciao
Ooops... Sorry...
here is the source...
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/sfogl...I&
ediz=20_CITTA
ciao
La Repubblica has an article summing up the reasons for the court's decision to retain AK and RS in prison. I didn a google translation, and it is helpful, but a good translation by someone that speaks Italian would be better.
The article points to M's injuries as proof that more than one person committed the crime. It also says that a break in was staged--M knew her killers.
Amanda's role was not a secondary one, it says. She has no inhibitions or "brakes" on her behavior, and is shrewd and might kill again. RS, has a fragile personality that is easily manipulated.
The court awaits more testimony from RS and the testimony of Rudy, who will be in Italy tomorrow.
Heres the link:
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/
11...otivazioni.html
Middie | Homepage | 12.05.07 - 8:55 am | #
--One of the stories say that Raf never received Amandas note, because they are not allowed to communicate. Well, if they are allowed to read the papers, etc.. that didn't work
La Stampa is running a similar piece today. There is one bit of information from Rudy that I hadn't heard before(If its old news to the rest of you, i apologize.). He is stating that the murderer was not alone:
"I want to return to Italy as soon as possible, and tell what they know. I want to indicate the murderer of Meredith. I saw him, I could recognize him. It was not alone, he was with someone else."
http://www.lastampa.it/
redazione...28179girata.asp
A bit more about how Guede now says there were 2 people there. How can anyone believe anything any of the suspects say anymore???
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3004740.ece
And this about sums up how most of feel about Knox.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1295808,00.html
Thank you a2. I didn't know that he was indicating that the murderor was not alone.
1.) Although, if he really doesn't know that AK and RS are there... Who's to say that he has not seen the news etc.. with their pictures and that is why he is going to be able to "identify" them both? Just a theory.
2.) The person named jennysthoughts is not me... Just thought I'd let you know that...
and 3.) Loz... are you psychic? I'm sorry if this has already been established. But in reading the posts, they seem kind of cryptic, so I wasn't sure if I was reading more into it...
I agree, Jenny, that RH has had ample time to read and adjust his story.
I think its interesting that the 35 page report from the court was presented to the press by the attorney representing the Kerchers. And interesting that they don't stop at naming her as the suspect:
Mr Maresca said the panel's explanation was "a well-reasoned ruling that puts Amanda in the leading position in the murder".
Judge Riccarelli also gave a damning character assassination of American Knox and described her as "privy of any refraining inhibitions and could reoffend.
"From the reconstruction there is the concrete possibility of reoffending and the [alleged] role of Amanda Knox was by no means secondary."
He added that she was also "crafty and cunning" with a "multi faced personality, unattached to reality with an elevated, one would say fatal capacity to aggregate.
"To conclude I have to impose a custodial measure."
From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith105.xml
----------------------
2.) The person named jennysthoughts is not me... Just thought I'd let you know that...
We are all aware of this Jenny...
Don't worry.
I just hope AK's now in a single cell.
Since she is not watching or reading any of the news reports, I wonder what her take is on her situation? Does she really understand the gravity of what she's up against, or the perception that the world has of her? The fact that she most often is like a stone skipping along,barely grazing the surface of reality, you have to wonder what she expects will happen to her? Her behavior, other than some tears shed at her hearing last Friday, makes one wonder...
If you could sentence a person for their interests/morbid fascinations in true crime, serial killers, and the likes, chances are, we would all be locked up... doing time somewhere. :P
Same goes for our individual tastes in books, movies, music, video games, etc...
I am not too disturbed by Rafe's "admiration" for a serial killer. I think that's mainly because it is hard to judge context when looking at Rafe's writings.(He does seem to have dry wit and a bit of sarcasm to him.)
Hopefully his statements tomorrow will provide a lot more insight into his mental state, as well as just what exactly he does know.
From various articles--multiform personality, does that mean what we have been theorizing?
"The role of Amanda cannot be secondary" the judges said. "She is a young woman with a multiform personality". She had a capacity for self dramatisation "which one might call fatal".
The judge described her as "crafty and cunning" with a "multi-faced personality, unattached to reality with an elevated, one would say fatal capacity to aggregate.
It definitely echoes the personality that posters here have been theorizing is Amanda's.
I think its interesting that they feel that if she did murder, she may do it again?
http://tinyurl.com/2zyqu8
^an enlargement of Amanda's drawing
I think its interesting that they feel that if she did murder, she may do it again?
a2 | 12.05.07 - 12:57 pm | #
(they may think they caught a serial killer at the first murder. this could be due to their opinion that the kill was ritualistic; a *future* serial killer's first murder may be disorganized due to drugs, youth; if they are not stopped--usually by being imprisoned for that or something else--subsequent murders get more organized.)
wow
Yes, wow...poor Meredith.
Its hard not to see this as an innocent walking into some kind of hellish trap that night. And while i suspect that the circumstances, when they are revealed, will be more mundane than what has been presented, they will be no less evil.
Amanda's drawing is curious. Any experts out there to take us through it?
Analysis of drawing:
1. She yearns for freedom.
2. She appears rather immature.
Pensa cosi
Think so
(perhaps: pretend this is us...the sun and the moon; we are together and above it all in our dreams. we are not of this world. we are nature. no houses, just trees, no people. you and me and nature. you are the moon i am the sun, perfect balance, two sides. we are unique, and together we are a force of nature)
the landscape looks like what perugia's landscape would look like, perfect little hills close together.
what's interesting to me about this drawing is how much it looks like one of the drawings that was entered into evidence at the People vs Scott Dyleski trial in Northern California a couple of years ago. he was a *goth* teen, convicted, life inprison. he was 17; and, indications are that when he was stopped and convicted that they did stop a serial killer. now, here is a bad bad kid. he had studied the crimes of the biggies--jack the ripper, manson and the WORST ed gein (see www.crimelibrary.com). he used a knife; serious overkill of pamela the victim. (i wonder if amanda or rafe took a *souvenir* from the kill--besides money. scott intended to take his victim's bloody eyeglasses, but left them behind, set apart from the bloody mess.)
yes, blah. a very childish drawing.
WHERE THE hell is Robert M? Luke?
other interpretive types?
google translation of Raffaele personality traits from report
Heres the link:
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/ 11...otivazioni.html
a2 | 12.05.07 - 9:22 am | #
Raffaele, complex and attracted by the violence. Later, the judges of the Review about Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge. He writes that he is a young man from the "fragile temperament, exposed to all kinds of influences. His version of events is imperdonabilmente unlikely."
For judges his "personality was a very complex and somewhat disturbing," and he "violence is a real attraction." Raffaele must remain in prison: against him there "precautionary multiple needs, for example, the" real danger of escape ", as the" concrete risk of recurrence criminal. "
I find the two faces of the sun and the moon combined into one examples her twofaced, multiple personality.
Xin--your perhaps is very eloquent and beautiful. Nice writing.
excellent, chris; i agree.
There is always more in art than the artist intends.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/0...r=1&
oref=slogin
Nice Op-ed piece today in NewYorkTimes
but Amanda is a girl my exact age, 20, from my hometown, Seattle. Because of her story, which has dominated the news in Europe, and not just in the tabloids, life as an American student abroad is not at all what I expected.
Thanks for posting that, Chris. Beautiful little piece.
Maybe now that the NYT has run this fine op-ed piece, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (! NOT) will begin to see the global nature of this riveting crime and cover it properly, with insight and analysis as to the character of their hometown girl.
the thng about rafe though, it all seems like internet blog heresay & nothing more tbh.
it's clear both he & knox got their statements 'straight' with each other beforehand because of the time mention of 11pm-approx time of death, and the plastic bag, and other sililarities.
nice find Chris
And, a word from my favorite, perugia-shock blog. Excerpt below, the story continues at
http://tinyurl.com/327d2q
The excitation grows among paparazzi, tomorrow there's the big premiere and Rudy Guede, the super star of the case, will arrive. The "suite" is booked at "Grand Hotel", of course, and the red carpet has been already rolled down. It will take him directly in front of the prosecutor. A strange kind of theater this time for the star of this festival.
That's how I have, unfortunately, to call the case Meredith Kercher, a festival.
There's glory for everyone. About Amanda Knox we know, she's a star since day one. Playboy front page is waiting for her. About Patrick we know as well, he doesn't talk for less than 20,000 € now (not even in front of the judge...).
Raffaele's attorneys and father have became a talent agency. They work more with media that in the court. They had made him write a letter to dad and published it, they had sued the store that "stole" Raffaele's image. They appear on every TV show since the morning in order to promote Raffaele's memoir. When they received an offer from the infamous Alessio Sundas they thought well of pointing higher. And now a new auction is on. This time is for the Diary from the jail, by Raffaele Sollecito. Would you spend a cent for it? I wouldn't. That 'd be just a fake document without any importance.
(continue with the link above)
http://www.estense.com/?module=d...318&
format=html
You don't see this photo much. Looks like they are arguing.
rafes so-called link to his rumoured blog friend Alberto, arrested/tried 27th September for the murder of his g/f echoes though with this crime. Alberto left little evidence, and claimed to be on his PC at the time of the murder. *wonders if the link is true, if rafe was involved*
He & rafe could have been tehe original double-act, then it became rafe & amanda. Both are 24 years old. so maybe he was just inspiration for rafe. I do not know the details of how Albertos g/f was killed. so can not compare.
and here is a play that is traditinally performed on all saints day (Nov1, day of MKs murder), in spain).
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=1&
gl=uk
Francesco Maresca, a lawyer for the Kercher family, has now revealed some of the details of why Knox's appeal was dismissed.
In a 35-page explanation of its ruling that she should stay in jail, a three-judge panel described her as "self-assured and cunning" but also naive and with a tendency for theatrics.
Maresca said the panel's explanation was "a well-reasoned ruling that puts Amanda in the leading position in the murder."
Kermit | 12.05.07 - 8:22 am | #
well I see that if all te stuff about rafe is true, the other supposed/rumoured serial killer to graduate his college being an inspiration, and him being a friend of alberto who he talked abot being mad to & his violent 'passions'.-and if they weren't made up blogs I know for sure he must have originally had one because of the pics, but what they actually said i don't know?
the police & prosecution will work it out.
then that is highly 'stylised', and there would not be that much need for such hard evidence. just enough, you know. depends on his lawyers like people have said.
but amanda and rudy being in the mix, well they really make it that much more complex.
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05.../05...-perugia/
2.html
This is That CCTV shot of the alleged suspect(Amanda)meman | 12.04.07 - 4:48 pm | #
--I think that it really does look like Amanda as much as it can considering.
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05.../05...-perugia/
2.html
chris,
Still cannot view it. Thank you.
Don't worry Chris, that happens. I tried to link that photo from a seattle blog and failed.
Maybe post homepage and then tell us the date and a keyword (CCTV?) and we can dig it up on our own.
That was this link from this post.Just the CCTV image which was discussed upthread, but I look at for the first time. If this link doesn't work, go to Memans original post as follows:
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05.../05...-perugia/
2.html
This is That CCTV shot of the alleged suspect(Amanda)again...First,how does one blow this picture up a little bit more?...and the second question is,after looking at it again,It looks like she is entering the Garage,not leaving...What do you guys and Gals think....?...
meman | 12.04.07 - 4:48 pm | #
Chris,
If it was meman's original post, I believe that the female figure is entering.
CHRIS, ya beat me to it with the NYT link above. Seriously, READ THIS. How the story permeates Bologna as well. Her insights and presentation are well done. The accompanying illustration for the online version is both a great satire and as such summarizes a lot of what we've said: the AK figure with the a knife for a nose and draped with the Republic as a headlined banner over the shoulder. Wonderful.
STANFORD comes through. Certain posters should be proud of alma mater!
I did some research on analyzing drawings/pictures/doodle.. this is just some of what I found. I will keep searching... Some of this is kind of interesting... The grass is a zigzag shape... and even arrow shaped..
Abstract and Random Shapes: These are not the regular zig-zag, patterned form of abstraction, but free-form and orderless shapes, which may be closed or open. A wandering line indicates aimlessness and distraction. Rythmical arabesques might suggest a wilful, coqettish distraction, while more purposeful lines indicate unease.
Lineweight Pressure: Light lines indicate sensitivity, or a tentative nature - the artist worries about making errors. Medium weight lines suggest a balanced, confident personality. Heavy marks can indicate resolve, strength, and energy. Agression produces overly heavy lines, and the paper may be impressed or torn. Varied lines can indicate instability. Lineweight may also be used, especially in a pencil doodle, to create shading effects, which may have meaning in the context of the image, but not in themselves.
Repeated Lines and Patterns: Repetition is a common feature of doodles that suggests a methodical, patient approach to tasks. Repetition also increases the significance of a particular motif
Zig Zags: Some sources suggest that zig-zag lines indicate an experience of harsh reality and a need for comfort. Angular lines are also a feature of many styles of 'tag' graffiti and Manga cartooning, so may be preseny in the doodles of young people who are interested in these art forms.
Waves: Water-waves can be highly symbolic depending on the context, representing the water of life, a river, the ocean. The ocean is said to indicate an idle dreamer, though may of course be drawn by lovers of water sports. A curvy sine-wave pattern suggests musicality and natural rhythm. Wavy lines are sometimes drawn to represent long hair, meaning a desire for beauty and femininity (in ones self or a significant other).
Arrows indicate a person who is aggressively ambitious.
Zigzags: This repeated pattern may signal a need for comfort, or a need to regress to childhood in order to escape from the harsh everyday reality.
Yup, Robert, that illustration kills.
So neat.
(whispering: Go Bears)
picture comments
xin | 12.05.07 - 1:25 pm | #
i think the same as above the world, their ego wrapped up/circled as one (if not in the centre of the sky), overlooking a scene of 'freedom'-a mountan range remeniscent of seattle to her?
what I understand is that it could be interpreted as 'sweet' - a hem you know what I think of her.
the other way it can be seen is if they stick together = freedom. silly. or maybe in their dreams.
the moon is him in side-profile with one eye, and her the sun facing out of the picture with two eyes.
they share a smile.
that's all i get from it as a 'layman'
3.) Loz... are you psychic? I'm sorry if this has already been established. But in reading the posts, they seem kind of cryptic, so I wasn't sure if I was reading more into it...
Jenny | 12.05.07 - 10:39 am | #
nah, i don't beleive in psychics. nah. you can like make too much of things imho
Loz,
yes that is the Garlasco murder in August this year
Since she is not watching or reading any of the news reports, I wonder what her take is on her situation? Does she really understand the gravity of what she's up against, or the perception that the world has of her? The fact that she most often is like a stone skipping along,barely grazing the surface of reality, you have to wonder what she expects will happen to her? Her behavior, other than some tears shed at her hearing last Friday, makes one wonder...
a2 | 12.05.07 - 11:58 am | #
she is so aware. an artice somewhere, sorry don't have the source, said that in her leaked telephone the conversation to her mum that she had watched the news & didn't like it because they were calling her a liar.
her drawing could be cynically analysed as think-so meaning if they stick together they are free. don't do psychology but he is 'night'/she is light'-don't know what that means, why she's the more femanine of the ying-yang. but it could just be they complete each other and so on and so forth to the nth degree.
I think its interesting that they feel that if she did murder, she may do it again?
a2 | 12.05.07 - 12:57 pm | #
maybe because, if the press or reportage haven't been biased, she has never showed remorse.
Since she is not watching or reading any of the news reports, I wonder what her take is on her situation? Does she really understand the gravity of what she's up against, or the perception that the world has of her? The fact that she most often is like a stone skipping along,barely grazing the surface of reality, you have to wonder what she expects will happen to her? Her behavior, other than some tears shed at her hearing last Friday, makes one wonder...
a2 | 12.05.07 - 11:58 am | #
I'm with Loz on this one...I don't believe for a second that she isn't eating up every little tid-bit she can see or hear about herself.
Interesting interpretations on the drawing, xin & Loz. And thank-you Jenny for your research on the analysis of doodles and drawings.
Keep in mind, though, that from prison television she'd only see morelocal coverage. I doubt if she is aware that her situation is being watched from Iceland to India.
But, mumsy and papa do...wonder if either of them have put their homes up for sale yet.
OK, this is just great. Now in Amanda's 35 page court document, they're claiming among many other things she has a multiple personality disorder. I wonder if they mean seperate & distinct personalities. No wonder she can't remember all what happened that night, they're talking to the wrong Amanda.
I remember back when they finally cracked the Boston Strangler case. They knew Albert DeSalvo was commiting those crimes, but he could'nt remember any details. In fact he could even pass a lie detector test. It took a top notch Psyschiatrist to get him to remember all the details, and he wasn't playing games either.
I'm not saying this is going on with Amanda, and no free passes, but they might consider hiring some heavy duty psychologist for that prison.
I find it interesting sun/moon doodles show optimism (who knows when she drew this.. maybe it was before she got denied her bail??) and also a need to prove and advertise oneself... Sounds like her to me! I love the thought of the double face meaning she is two faced... I also had a thought that with the snow capped mountains.. maybe she feels stressed and that she will have to "move mountains" to get outta this one.... and if she does move those mountains.. her and Rafe will rise above and be as one... Who knows.. this is just my senseless rambling!
Stars, sun, moon, celestial bodies: optimism, ambition, a need to prove and advertise oneself
In today's Seattle Times, it is reported that the Italian Court had released documents stating the reasons that AK and RS have been detained. The article focuses on the fact that there was no sign of a break-in. It does not mention any of the attributes that the court assigned to AK(cunning, unattached to reality, etc).
It seems as though these interpretations of AK's personality, listed in the document, have been named as evidence against her. Is that correct, can they do that in Italy?
Link for Seattle Times
http://
seattletimes.nwsource.com...yslaying05.html
Interesting interpretations on the drawing, xin & Loz. And thank-you Jenny for your research on the analysis of doodles and drawings.
Rhonda | 12.05.07 - 4:19 pm | #
yep, from the brilliant thing that jenny just posted, if you start coupling things together.
the suns rays repetative moteif, emphasises the fact that that is them, together, their egos.
Liked the bit about 'arrows' (trees that jenny mentioned) especially coupled with the very hard lines = aggressive ambition.
childish? or just deflated after being got the measure of by the judge.
----------
and her defense lawyers really can't be anything but weak in the face of the evidence re: the knife wound. well who said mk was standing up when it happened? maybe she was. but, I'd find that stab wound interesting coupled with the fact?? that AKs finger-imprint(s) were on MKs face.
But, mumsy and papa do...wonder if either of them have put their homes up for sale yet.
xin | 12.05.07 - 4:22 pm | #
wonder about his career at macy's.
mamma take me shopping
yes certainly dear, just not at macy's.
Keep in mind, though, that from prison television she'd only see morelocal coverage. I doubt if she is aware that her situation is being watched from Iceland to India.
But, mumsy and papa do...wonder if either of them have put their homes up for sale yet.
xin | 12.05.07 - 4:22 pm | #
Well, from the NYT student's article, there seems to be quite enough local coverage to keep her occupied, in -between her singing and excercise routine, for some time.
I do feel sorry for her parents...what a horror seeing that your child is capable of such insanity. I'm sure they will be selling more than a house or two before this is over.
There is some excellent documentation and references slowly accumulating on this (and on the old) forum.
A long time ago Middie gave the "Matrix" interview TV show URL reference. They've had four shows dedicated to this case.
Here's a composite snap I put together from Matrix video frames, of Amanda's bedroom. This is how the police would have seen it, and how it would have be "preserved".
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net.../
9172feff97.jpg
I won't say - like Claude Raines - "I'm shocked ... shocked" that it's so clean, as we already know that it was thoroughly cleaned with bleach. What impacts visually is how it looks like a summer camp when one set of kids leave and before the new ones arrive: no - or hardly any - bed linen, pillows piled up, no books on bookshelf, no papers or pens or anything on the desk, except the computer.
they're talking to the wrong Amanda.
=====no no absolutly not OMHO. that statement which was so similar to RSs was 'well constructed' by her to deal with evidence against her. i wasn't there, oh so now there's evidence i was, well yeah that's cos i was confused man. nah. just the 11pm, the plastic bag, the movie. each of her personalities sure rembered their cover stories correctly. the fact she knew the approx time of attack before released gave it away to me. and not only THAT, but she adds a little extra from creative writing ability to implicate rafe.oh yeah well now, actually come to think of it you know like when i saw patrick, well no actually, that is not so strong now come to think of it, this other contrasting creative writing idea that i had seems MORE real. now. funny eh. whoops silly me 'does a M.Munroe style slap stick thing? and she is soo devious-they hit me, but cos i am such a good person, i can well understand. what does she want a badge. nope, cos she's probably only doing it to pee people off. evn if they did, that still stands.
absolutely totally no sweetness, no light, no remorse imho. and when the judge talks of aggregate, i don't now if she is that complex or just has a 'socialized' face to the world belying her true self that is constant, if he or the psychologits think she has multiple personalities or the dark side of her is sectioned off but like a ghoul comes out to 'play' at hallowe'en (puh-lease).
I think it could have been lost in translation and he just means, amanda is wholely very aggressive. and these other sides to her could be acting, and cunning?
I find it interesting sun/moon doodles show optimism (who knows when she drew this.. maybe it was before she got denied her bail??) and also a need to prove and advertise oneself... Sounds like her to me! I love the thought of the double face meaning she is two faced... I also had a thought that with the snow capped mountains.. maybe she feels stressed and that she will have to "move mountains" to get outta this one.... and if she does move those mountains.. her and Rafe will rise above and be as one... Who knows.. this is just my senseless rambling!
Stars, sun, moon, celestial bodies: optimism, ambition, a need to prove and advertise oneself
Jenny | 12.05.07 - 4:38 pm | #
wow. yep, it could be her expecting to be freed! "think so...?"
Well, from the NYT student's article, there seems to be quite enough local coverage to keep her occupied, in -between her singing and excercise routine, for some time.
I do feel sorry for her parents...what a horror seeing that your child is capable of such insanity. I'm sure they will be selling more than a house or two before this is over.
Rhonda | 12.05.07 - 4:47 pm | #
and her brothers/sisters/cousins & what not. it must be hard being tarred with the brush of having such a creature in your family. it's not something you want people to know, cos naturally they'd always wonder about the family members. unless of their old friends and coleague who know them well.
named as evidence against her. Is that correct
Link for Seattle Times
a2 | 12.05.07 - 4:42 pm | #
--I thought that the article was limited in listing court oppion was because they are rooting for their hometown girl, nothing more.
GANG!! I was away for a full day, part of which was obsessing over one of my other likely self-projecting stuff "female in distress" narratives I've started to follow, inputing info to try to make sense of THAT. Hey! How's THAT for arrogant blogging??? (Alas, except its true. I'm in an odd place.)
After my earlier little comment on the NYT picture (See It - See It!), I've spent the next oooooo two hours reading through here to catch up.
1) The CCTV pic - Mike Hunt's cleaned up slightly version is quite excellent. Its just at the moment in a women's walk where its all hips it seems to me. To fully say it "certainly looks like Amanda", you'd need to see the full sequence enhanced/cleaned as Mike has done. A top shop in the UK could do it easily. I'm HOPING that Rome SCU had arranged for that to happen. Yet, given Amanda's jock-type-ness, and for all those Americans here who know about women's field-hockey and ditto basketball you know what I mean, she should have a LOT less sway, even a flat style. And the person walking INTO the garage doesn't seem to be in heels which, let's admit it boys & girls, are designed to promote that hip sway. So if a natural hip swayer, then perhaps NOT Amanda. As was pointed out in Original Thread Posts (hereinafter OTP), there are enough three-point comparisons so that the EXACT height of the woman walker can be determined. Again, one hopes that Rome SCU has dotted that "I".
3) to Monica Williams, that was I think your one & only post but by god that was the Most Original thing in a long time. Nope, this arrogant SOB NEVER came close to that idea re Amanda wearing Rafe's shoes. Superb out of the box thinker. Hat's off and an Agatha Plotting Point to you. (Really. Seriously.)
next up xin
3) xin you are likely past time gathering stuff for niece, but several of the items you mentioned may perhaps still be available as links among the OTPs. No, I did not start to create a file as several other people posting at the OTP said they were, damian I thought being one. (Please don't go to far damian! The riverboat is coming around the bend.)
This next is for you & LOS. And jenny too. Combine both your pieces on the sun-moon-mountain picture, and I think you've got it. But of course as a good clinician would do, let's see more before we CONCLUDE what the dominant themes are. Loz pointed out the absence of people. Could be a regular feature where Amanda turns herself into a metaphorical presentation as both you have suggested. Is then the sun-moon thing repetitive or is this solo? Also, the "wave" pattern for the mountains. In a moment she could have turned those into waves of an ocean. So again is the wave repetitive. BUT as both of you got to, its a presentation of ESCAPE, getting out of this, getting away up into the air, but in Italy. (I'd think she'd make the Cascades a lot more dramatic) and blah caught the essential immaturity. And "flat".
xin continued
Chris, i agree that the Seattle papers have a bias when reporting--and rooting for - Amanda. And that was the observation that initially i wanted to post.
But, it did occur to me while i read the 2 articles, that the official court document for keeping AK in prison, does talk about her as "cunning, theatrical and self-assured", etc. While I do agree with their assessment, it struck me that these rather subjective remarks are included in the legal document. Guess I was just wondering whether or not these kinds of observations are considered alongside forensic evidence when determining a person's guilt or innocence.
From OTP ( original thread posts )
This article tells you and shows you all you want to know about Amandas past. Very indepth, and worth going to:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1770
xin continued
And yet I now think that Amanda is "dissociating", fragmenting, recombining & fragmenting again. Note her inability to be at all concentratedly logical--as us reality folks are here--in the published extracts. NOTE: its only a few paragraphs we've seen from the 100 page plus "diary" that ILE has released. Again a clincian needs to see more to expand the context of any particular phrase or metaphor, again lookign for reptitive imagery and word or phrase usage. Using "I" a lot doesn't mean anything unless its seen in the context of presentation. But, still what we see is FRAGMENTED THINKING. Amanda's ability to comparmentalize re her concentration in her classes in Monday given the fact of her roommate's death is a natural human trait taken a far. She's lost or loses daily that ability to compartmentalize so it looks like swings. Multi-personalities per the judges? No, dissociating. But still acting cunningly? Oh, yeah. I know that mix of behavior FIRST HAND. I moved the knife block that night and somehow catnapped with one eye open. In a US system, if the defense didn't ask, the judge would directly order a 60 to 90 day in-hospital evaluation, info shared with both sides. This avoids the bail issue, and lets everybody move the matter to a side-track. Obviously NOT the ILE way. Amand needs DIL shrink visits and prescribed medication and actually the ILE might then get stuff out of here. Why her Dad isn't pushing this in fact and in the papers (as in My little girl is suffering and needs help) is beyond me. Maybe he's tried and found out it can't be done, but I'd sure be sqwaking like hell, local procedure be damned.
xin continued
chris re the daily mail link. Good report for reminder about the family stuff, even if oversensationalized and missing more detail that he likely had. The step-dad's attitudes and his own my spacep were linked and I think mirrored over at OTP early in the thread.
Paraphrasing that famous Russian writer with a D: "All families are dysfunctional and all are dysfunctional in their own way."
Yes Robert, The step dads myspace was very interesting in the OTP. Not searching for it though. But , I have been looking for and can not find RS interview with a paper, I thought it was the sun, some say the Daily mail. This interview took place right after the murder, before he was arrested. I can't find it and it is driving me crazy.
I really want to compare that to his official statement to the police, and send to the eyes for lies blog guy.
and by the way for OTP--one of the articles saying that Amanda hand print on Meredith face.
I think that we can know say that this info is false,correct?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
xin continued
{just some more arrogant pontificating, ya know. I really should put a smiley face here of some sort but I don't know how.}
This gets to xin's two comments, both which went further than what I had let myself go to at the OTP.
(A) A potential serial killer's FIRST KILL. Many people who kill, never kill again, whether caught or not. But having killed the likelihood of a SECOND kill goes up very dramatically when the data is drilled down. This refers to the paragraph above & move from disorganized (hey i did that, wasn't so bad) to the organized (oh rafe you've become so boring, maybe you need a little more of Rudy's fine colombian snow & by the way i'll be out all day shopping with Mother). It certainly could be that the judges have seen enough of their own "monsters" and taken continuind ed courses etc to be at least a little concerned at behavior they've seen before. hey likely also have reports from prison staff. And the dissociating is always unnerving. And what I couldn't bring myself to directly say at the OTP,
(B) your "On the moritification of MK--ladies, it's a bit true, right? that each of us is humiliated and mortified when we think of what MK may have experienced in her final moments, all while perhaps as many as 5 people looked on or in?", well, I didn't think I as a guy should bring it up, nor dramatize it more than I did. That's the kind of thing a US prosecutor does in closing arguments to put the blow on circumstantial evidence. I don't think that the Crown Service proses can get away with that. Yet as its the older Sudanese women who do the genital cutting on the younger women--because their mother's did it to them so why's it wrong--we really shouldn't be surprised that the complexities of human thinking, the self-hurting kind, transcend gender. Certainly, with Amanda we know she felt the need to challenge/attack other women, while Meredith is clearly a supportive-sister-type. That's clear. Guys do it to guys (hazing etc) and women to women and both to each but mostly men as power expressing. That a woman would be an instigator is part of the fascination with the possibility of Amanda that we have.
Meredith was going to have a really really really great year.
loz
Your point is well taken
of Amanda. She can recall select events in vivid detail, and then then conventiently forgets events that incriminate her or Raffaele. Talking about birds and pleasant experiences is not same. Maybe she copes by plowing under inconvenient truths. I don't mean to step any toes, but I don't think that a regular police interrogation is going to get to the bottom here.
They are going to have to try and verify whatever she says about this case.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...lient=firefox-
a step father my space
Rober m, I just think though, it MUST hav started earlier than 14.
Hey man, I thought it was the Russian writer with a T? Wet here (big rainstorm and next year's crop of serial killers will be a bumper crop).
I thought the judge got all that psychology stuff from the pre-crime unit but I would love to know if AK has been examined by a psychiatrist.
I had a very different take on the NYT Op-Ed. A good way for Times to comment without commenting. For heaven's sake the Op-Ed piece has a headline (not likely the Stamford student's headline) which is "Junior Fear Abroad".
I also thought that it was interesting that the tribunal 35-page report was not the headline in the Corriere della Sera (online edition) but the piece from the Stamford student in Bologna. Huh?
DLW | 12.05.07 - 6:37 pm | #
--I 2nd this post.
Robert M. | 12.05.07 - 6:32 pm |
--part "b" I agree with, and am glad that you are sensitive to this disgraceful issue.
Roby
thanks for getting link to step dad
chris, as with all ILE leaks, how the PRESS printed it is anothe rmatter. You could say that there's a likelihood that on Meredith's face was an identifiable imprint of hand which might be smallish in size. But exact dimensions never revealed. AND its been dropped since in any furhte reproting. I'd say if stuff doesn't make it to the second week of reporting & referencing by the Italian press, while it may exist, it was a lot less USEFUL than first supposed.
This is a variant on The Revolving Bathrooms problem, which Luke above got dizzy on, and I don't blame him. ILE has NEVER said to the BOMM which bathroom had the T with F in it. I'm thinking its the LARGE one. Which means that Amanda "took" her shower in the small bathroom, and "never looked" into the large one. So no freak-out until she & Rafe came back and she "finally looked" into the large one. ILE has NOT specified where things are in terms of Large or Small. What I proposed above is how the "facts" would fit the Pinecone Theory.
Also, Has The Cat Come Back?
Remember, Meredith had the keys for the downstairs apartment of the BF. That door was unlocked with blood all around and the keys have never been found. Again the last point is BOMM. Was it there next day or gone? (Would that the cat WOULD come back with what the ILE could use--smokinggun evidence on the trio.)
We're in the dark on these crucial points because of the leaking & reporting style. No formal press conferences with the chance for follow-up questions. (The White House press isn't so hot on this either but they never get the main people in their sights.)
Maybe she copes by plowing under inconvenient truths. DLW | 12.05.07 - 6:37 pm | #
you are right. it is always 'the murder' or 'that night'.
BUT could it be she associates bad things with it because RS assaulted MK like sexually, or because THAT NIGHT / THE MURDER lead to her being where she is now. but yep, you're right. but you can always read it as she's being nonchelant(sp). but yes, for some reason, she's 'not going through it' or reliving it.
you know, I think if AK is bored in prison, maybe it's time for some hand painting like in nursery. give her & the other suspects some really watered down/thinned red paint.
if nowt else, it might help determine who wiped their hands all over the walls.
and absolutely video it.
seattleite | 12.05.07 - 6:42 pm | #
--interesting point about the NYT.
Keep safe in Seattle, I have been following the terrible news about the distruction from the storms.
hey you know, he's not the nicest, but unless of more than verbal & mental abuse she'd have to have something younger than 14. or can you dissociate at such an age?
Thanks Chris. Most of the damage was downstate and the coast but people really take care of each other here during a storm event. I used to think the Space Needle was dumb when I lived in California but I have been up here about ten years and I --like the Op-Ed student-- get the biggest kick out of seeing every day.
Which means that Amanda "took" her shower in the small bathroom, and "never looked" into the large one. So no freak-out until she & Rafe came back and she "finally looked" into the large one
---Nope. Amanda through Rafe testimony said that she saw the dirty toliet when she was at home and showered, and when she and Rafe returned to the villa, the toilet was flushed.
LOZ EVERYTHING starts before 14. We're not Lockean blank slates but pathways developing physically, electrically/chemically, and gestalt-wise in a self-referential feedback looping system. BUT stuff REALLY kicks in when the hormones kickin 13to15+.
Note the recent MSNBC headlines on the new research on the STILL developing frontal lobes of adolsecents. Its that brain development that makes adolescents "loopy" and sometimes killers. Science is FINALLY doing studies on how plastic the brain is until now well past 20. When i did a brain/memory lit review in college some * ahem * years ago, the background idea was all done by 5 years old really. And now we know brain tissue can even regrow into late middle age!
Where the problem is, is that the frontal lobe development is years behind the hermonal development. Fact. Women mensturate at much younger years now. So CONTROL lags years behind IMPULSE.
That's the point, or one of them, of xin's story re the boy copping a feel and the girl not minding. even though a cop in the room would have been justified by current approach in handcuffing the boy and charging him with juvie 1st degree assault.
seattleite | 12.05.07 - 6:55 pm |
just fyi--my mom is from Seattle, and I have been there a few times. Means a lot to me.
"each of us is humiliated and mortified when we think of what MK may have experienced in her final moments, all while perhaps as many as 5 people looked on or in"
----
amen, and not a soul there that would help her the whole time, must have been very distressing for her. very very very.
chris - yes you are correct. My version, incorrect, is actually the better story-line to have created re the staged burglary. Which is why I put so many phrases in " ". And that they didn't create a more consistent story line demonstrates their "disorganization" due to coming down from drugs, sleep deprivation, lack of time, all being unclear thinking. I wrote above that the BIGGEST error was Amanda going neat freak in her room unless.
Why? As Sherlock himself said, its that the dog did NOT bark during the night that is the really important fact. The absence of what you would EXPECT to fin in Amanda's room.
Why? As Sherlock himself said, its that the dog did NOT bark during the night that is the really important fact. The absence of what you would EXPECT to fin in Amanda's room.
Robert M. | 12.05.07 - 7:06 pm | #
are you talking about her fingerprints? i'm not following. sorry
I had a lot of catching up to do here! AC Milan vs. Celtics last night....no computer.
They had yet another panel discussion on AK today, this one on Rai3, titled: "Amanda Knox, un viso d'angelo?" (face of an angel?) discussing her 'soft hair' and 'blue eyes' etc.
I was unable to pick up this 'drawing' of hers, can someone please repost it?
Also, about the picture where they are perhaps arguing-- it is from the same series as most of the others and the film footage of them kissing (her kissing him)
This picture is striking because she is obviously unaware of the camera, and that doesn't happen often! It's creepy and fascinating how even now as well as the moments just after the discovery of Meredith's body, AK has remained focused on 'working the crowd'. This girl LOVES her audience. Makes me want to lose my legal biscuits...
LOZ--it was unnatural that Amandas room did not have one fingerprint in it. Just as it is unnatural, that if a disturbance happens, and there is a dog, that the dog didn't bark.
I'm talking about the TOTAL LACK of any fingerprints in her room on all the stuff that should have been covred with them, not just that the bed was made & things stacked neatl;y.
One of them, perhaps Rafe, wiped it clean.
Story from today's NYDN. Police report that the bedroom of a Staten Island couple, in which the husband was found on Sunday am dead in his bed with 3 bullets into his head, was wiped clean of fingerprints, as was his service revolver, except for his own, that was found on the table next the bed. Ditto the bathroom. Wife said she was not at home when initially questioned by police but that was all she said, as she took their 3 year old out of the house, telling police she was calling a lawyer. Wife is a local high shcool teacher. Coupled had reconciled last year after separating over many issues including her gain in weight and inability to lose it. Police officially say they have no suspects at the moment. [I think I see a "Mary-Winkler" defense coming here.]
Yep, that is called an over-sanitized or sterile crime-scene right.
did they actually have a dog? too vague for me I'm afraid.
belle
--here ya go
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/view.....xml&
type=PHOTO
To seattleite you say T and I say D, and we both mean major morose slavic storyteller.
By the way, you DESERVE a pay-upgrade.
Robert M., I am fairly certain that the keys to the downstairs apts were found in Amanda's room.
Don't for the life of me know where i saw that, but ill take a look.
are you suggesting she put her hand over merediths mouth so hard it could have left an imprint? I though we dropped that as not evidence? plus, wasn't MK taller than AK? was she?
Thanks Chris, now everyone's responses are in perspective. I have to agree.
oh and forgot to add, well no cos she'd still scream from the throat. and also, may have bit any hand, though it could be one of the many thousands of ways that AKs blood was in the bathroom.
Loz- no they did not have a dog. it is an expression invented by Holmes the famours english crime detective. Basically meaning, if a natural circumstance is not happening, then the scene has been manipulated.
Earlier in the day, people were looking for the link to the CCTV image of Amanda, but couldn't find a link they could open. Mike Hunt posted this yesterday:
Here's a tweaked image: it doesn't look much better here, I'm afraid.
http://aycu21.webshots.com/ image...96683000_rs.jpg
Mike Hunt | Homepage | 12.04.07 - 6:34 pm | #
mike link doesn't work. I also copied and pasted into browser. do you know the time and date of original post, so we can go to there?
Hmmmm. Not working.Yep, if you backtrack to yesterday (12/04) at 6:34pm i think you can access it.
LOZ while the bitten hand is a GREAT idea, if Meredith ahd indeed bitten that HARD & DEEP to draw blood, Amanda's hand would still have shown evidnece of that when arrested on Monday late. I am of course ASSUMING that PeurgiaLE thought to physcailly examine her. They've got enough female cops at the police jail to do that.
Also, no I wasn't implying that her stepfather molested her at 14, which is what I think you think I implied. I believe that Amanda's issues are Lusting for the Absent Daddy as the Eldest Daughter. Her sister Deanna likely hs no such feelings. BUT with the stepfather's appearence just when Amanda is "filling out" and the hormones are raging and he's closer in age to HER then to her mother, well... The Absent Daddy issues are now overlayed with the Can't Have That Daddy Either situation. Sexuality as an impulse is unfocused at that period, or so I remember.
chris thanks, yet while I am sensitive and was so pretty early, I rather remember certain 13-year-old boy behavior that I somehow got away with, and she STILL almost really liked me, while I was for some years always in love with her. And then there was...
If you copy someone else's truncated link from a post you no longer have the complete URL. (see the elipsis in the URL in the copy?) You can go back and click the link from the original post and it works. Copy the full URL from your browserand then copy that in a new post.
I know. I posted it either early here or in the old comments page.
cos someone said - lack of evidence & how would they be able to stand the bleach. probably lovely pinecone.
*the lack of evidence I dealt w/ first, cos it's stupid no trace of her was found at the house, well initially apart from that cup whch was much later posted. so, that's when i said they cleaned it. and that's just as incriminating as lots of evidence since she lived there.
*the bleach - I just thought if needs must? but I was looking into luminol some comments up in this page, & discovered you only need about 6 drops per litre or something, to ruin any luminol effect/mask blood. unless you're testing for evidence of a clean up w/ bleach that is. I was looking into luminol cos i wondered if it is ever used on suspects ears, and eyes & nooks & crannies on their bodies to detect blood if not to long since the murder.(or bleach which RS may have been given in his cell, hopefully not w/ cotton wool earbuds).
so, was there none of AKs prints in MKs room. interested in the fact that the body may have been moved to the wardrobe. hmm, gloves or justmost of her contact in the room that night was with mks person & and clothes.
I DO wonder, if it is verified who of AK/RHG stole the money (ie which didn't take it from ther account) if aks prints were lifted from the drawer where MK puts her rent money?
and even if it is shown that AK had withdrawn money, still.
are RHGS prints on the place where MK kept hr money, to open it, he'd have to, he wsn't wearing gloves-print on pillow. so if not got his prints on the money place, then he didn't ransack the money place. unless e forced mk to give him her money. but again, it wasn't a one person crime, so that's unlikely too.
ah, there you go, discovered a way that AK could have given RHG MKs money but appear not to have. weak though if her fingerprints not on the drawer. hers or rafes. it could be him. and anyway, she could have old rhg where the money was
O.K., found RS original interview to news before he was a suspect:
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/ne...98487-20058122/
Will put with his official statement, and Amandas statements and see what eyes for lies blog has to say.. I think that blog is great, I don't remeber who suggested it recently, but thank you!
I don't know why, but I find that hand smear above MKs bed interesting.
was it made by RHG with one hand, as he left a print on the pillow with the other. I can imagine for balance. but then why not just 'whip' it off. and why was he there? did he retrieve the duvet? and so what of rafes print?
sh** i've just had a terribly uncomfortble necrophilia occurence and the moving of the body around. or just as she was dying but helpless thought. god.
unless like people said he just reached over to smear & play with th blood. there's some reson he's at the top of that bed, using the wall and the pillow as support. god.
comment on elder daughter stuff & close to mums age
Robert M.
like that, helps me understand mre, but just assumed he was so young when her parents split 'that' would be normal to her. the close to her mums age 7 the stepdads age is very good.
but really, can it really account for her dissociation?
----------------------
sherlock & the dog
chris
elementary my dear watson!-that's the only quote i know!
Chris:
Equally interesting are the same journalist's reflections upon the same meeting with RS, a week later.
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/ne...98487-20092572/
-
Evidence of all three suspects has been found at the scene of the crime. Guede is alleged to have left a fingerprint on Kercher's bloodstained pillow. His DNA profile was also found in faeces in the toilet. Police experts have identified a bloodstain in the bathroom as belonging to Knox.
The judges dismissed claims by Sollecito's lawyers that a footprint in the bedroom where Kercher was found did not belong to their client. The judges said "full compatibility between the footprint and the sole of Sollecito's shoe" enabled them to rule out the possibility that it might have been left by a similar-sized shoe belonging to Guede.
LOZ its the restaging that is especially icky, as ILE did state they believe her body was moved around. Had to be if she was killed on her knees by the wardrobe WHILE REFUSING TO DO whatever it was that they wanted her to do. ILE has repeatedly said that's where she was killed. Must have good evidence.
BECAUSE she was killed on her knees REFUSING them, and yet her body was found mostly DISROBED, this meant that the killers, and this is why ILE consistently says two, had to manipulate a dead weight body so as to remove pants and underpants, as seen in the picture, and even undo and remove her BRA while leaving her top on, 'cause if you take the top off why put it back on? [And, gentleman, we all know how PITA it is taking off them things off even with a willing, nay! assisting, young lady.] They then positioned the body on the floor and then Rudy DID what ever it is that he did that left his DNA on her.
Meredith was murdered while PROTECTING HER HONOR AS A PERSON and AS A WOMAN;
then her sex was DEFAMED by stripping the body;
then her body was ABUSED sexually by a MALE;
ALL likely ASISSTED by a WOMAN.
That's why rob goes off the tracks and isn't with us right now, and its also why xin puts certain Anglo-Saxon Words in CAPS. While I can talk about these things dispassionately in this forum, if I'd come upon this scene at the time, my gorge would have risen instantly and if I could only have stopped one PERP, I'd have stopped the woman. If I was an US prosecutor, I'd be so focused on Murder 1 it would freak out compatriots. And if it was a death penalty state, I'd have used that from the gitgo to get the prime suspects attention. One would turn and that's all I'd need. And I don't believe in the death penalty. As neither does Italy (with good reason), ILE does not have that leverage to make them concentrate on saving their individual forfeited lives.
This hasn't been said for awhile on these threads, but that's why that goofy, grinning All-American Girl is perceived as such a vampirish gargoyle. And if she'd stayed home none of this would have happened. And if Meredith had given in, and let herself be raped, there's a good chance in their drugged state she might have lived. But Meredith defended her personal INTEGRITY. And was murdered for it.
If that footprint of RS was made by Amanda wearing his shoes ( like she wore his underwear)--that would be traceable too I think, because her foot would have different pressure points.
None the less, I still DO NOT believe that is RS shoe imprint. Why specifically, I do not now.
I think that if any one of these 3 were truly innocent, he/she would've been able to prove their where-abouts as Patrick did, and would now be free.
But they all have provided changing stories, fuzzy memories and unverifiable alibis.
Kermit | 12.05.07 - 7:58 pm | #
--yes, and at this point the police were able to trace who made that call to RS...If it was spectacular, we would have heard about it by now I think.
I do think that Meredith threatned to call the police on Rudy and Amanda, and Rudy freaked out knowing that he has a record and he would be toast. That is how I think it all started and ended. most unfortunately, I don't think that Meredith was only defending herself against rape, if so, she may have given in and lived. I think it was the threat to reveal that kicked this all off.
sorry, not clear in last post. I say that Meredith didn't like Rudy and Amanda doing drugs,and threatened to call the cops..maybe this missing money thing too inspired her rage.
This is when no recourse was allowed. Rudy had a record and could not be reported, and Amanda has an image, that she did not want to be ruined. The sex stuff, etc...was all secondary.
Chris,
RS is as involved in this crime as much as the other two are. Do I have proof? Not really at this moment. We have to wait to hear his RS's statements tomorrow before the Magistrate to perhaps learn more. Luke seems to think that he will say something new this time. I am not so sure. However, he is in jail for a good reason; he knows more than he is saying, just like AK, however, the same cannot be said of RG. He has been very talkative.
That being said, RS simply does not have any alibi to account for his where abouts during the night of the murder. There were moments during the night of the murder, (his father's call, his fathers text message, the inability for his team to prove he was surfing on the computer) where everything was set up for him to give himself a chance. He has failed the test in my opinion.
I am not saying he was involved in the murder per se, but, he definitely knows more about it then he is freely willing to admit and that is why he is in prison at this moment.
RobertM has stated here, that as a result of his failing to answer his fathers phone call or the text message, and as a result of the inconsistencies in his statements, the Police are in their proper rights to keep him in prison. And that is precisely the situation he finds himself in now, and he has no one to blame except himself for his predicament.
"it was all secondary", meaning that then they bullied her after her threat to report them, and it turned into a sex threat.Someone knew that the only conseqeunce would be meredith being murdered, the others did not think that far in advance. I say rudy had the most forethought in the group ( whatever comprised the group ).
Sorry I am a too fast typist and a bad speller to boot.
I would like someone here to definitely confirm that the Police have conclusively concluded that RG's DNA was found on Meredith and where. Based on a post I posted above, and that was dated Dec 6th, all the police are saying about RG is,
Guede is alleged to have left a fingerprint on Kercher's bloodstained pillow. His DNA profile was also found in faeces in the toilet.
LOZ, my references to Amando "dissociating" is to her behavior in prison. I think she is coming mentally unglued because What She's Done totally conflicts with What She Thinks Of Herself (re the "I can't take it anymore" comment). She may have a crap of a conscience but she hasn't totally gone over to the dark side quite yet. So she's coping by dancing every which way around the central issue and so creating these unlogical fantasy type questions and escapist art as was posted and to which you brilliantly interpreted. A good psychologist and proper meds would bring her back around, but at this point she has no CONSCIOUS idea of how bad it is for her. But her UNCONSCIOUS is sweating bullets as the US slang phrase has it.
tomorrow
bpcl | 12.05.07 - 8:32 pm | #
I agree with you that RS should be in prison right now. I know nothing more than you do about the evidence. He should be there, because at this point he is proven guilty, if for only one reason, he lied in the beginning.
The tech and forensic info is so conflicted and unreliable at this point. Maybe we will get some good info from RS camp tomorrow as Luke predicts. I hope so, but would not be surprised if we don't. Either because RS team has nothing good to defend, or that the police are running with their initial, arrogant statement in the beginning " case closed "
I think the bloody hand print smeared down the bedroom wall was Rudy's print in his own blood. In one of the first German reports, he was quoted as saying the "real killer" injured the palm of his [Rudy's] hand.
I'd love to see his wound. I think it was the sight of his own blood that infuriated him into strangling Meredith.
I think it was the sight of his own blood that infuriated him into strangling Meredith.
Pinecone | 12.05.07 - 8:58 pm | #
After he injured himself while trying to cut her throat.
RG also stated that he wrote the initials of the killer on the wall; These initials, AF, were supposedly given to him by Meredith.
There is no basis yet that proves RG injured himself while trying to cut Meredith's throat. RG stated that his hand was cut while fighting the assailant. We will learn more in the days ahead from RG, when he faces the Magistrate I am sure.
Chris,
From what I have heard, the Police have ruled out the bloody shoe print coming from the shoe size worn by RG. They have stated that the bloody shoe print more closely resembles the trainer worn by RS.
"For judges his "personality was a very complex and somewhat disturbing," and he "violence is a real attraction." Raffaele must remain in prison: against him there "precautionary multiple needs, for example, the" real danger of escape ", as the" concrete risk of recurrence criminal. "
There just hasn't been nearly enough information about him in the news or a big enough cyber-trail to draw this conclusion, so we must trust that those on the inside know the deal.
My feelings on Rafe's involvement have been in conflict. At times I can see him as a budding psycho, but others he comes off as a pussy whipped stoner with sub par social skills; no doubt a one time mommy's boy, now missing that "connection" in his life. Guess that makes him capable of anything.....
I look forward to tomorrow's developments.
Luke,
Can you please look at the bloody fingerprints left on the wall at the crime site. I just re-examined them and if you look very closely, you can almost make out a 'A' and a 'F'. Let me know what you think?
Luke,
http://buzzfeed.com/buzz/Amanda_Knox
item no 5.
Luke,
Photo 15
Luke,
I have tried to impersonate the movement of the prints on the wall using my fingers, but it is extremely difficult to do(both left and right hands I might add)
bpcl................no ,its a ruse by rudy...Another way to try, in his mind to explain his present there...I had blown up the photo,days ago,and I just don't see it
meman,
Do me a favor and try to imitate that movement with your own hand and tell me whether or not you can do it, and which hand you used.
It looks to be the right hand....I would think
meman,
It seems to me to be very deliberate and there is a cross on the two left lines down at the bottom. It is definitely not a smear of the hand.
meman,
It is definitely the right hand; has to be.
The cross seems to be the weight of the blood,dripping,...to me there was something quite soaked with blood
meman,
Each line seems to me to be written by a single digit or finger.
The cross part,is more like a blood spatter
meman,
That cross is too straight, and if it were blood dripping like you say, one would think you would see the drops of blood coming down from where the cross is.
meman,
And if you look at the left two lines, they are in line with each other at the top. Our fingers are not built that way.
Check your fingers again and you will see.(Maybe RG is built differently)
I am not sure,not an expert,but it does look like to the right of the third streak,it looks more like a drip...thats why, more or less, I draw my conclusion from.. ..sorry...just to hard trying to think like a murder...I just can't invision the scenerio yet
sorry i meant the drip below the second streak
meman,
I respect your opinion greatly; however, RG stated that he wrote the initials of the killer on the wall. You could be right, it might be a ruse. And we shall see in the future what his version of the truth is.
Actually, I got to thinking about it when Pinecone mentioned that it was a smear. I decided to look at it. RG is the only one of three who has admitted that he was at the cottage the night Meredith was murdered.
I know he has made some outrageous statements, however, given that he has said he was there, I tend to give more credence to his words. Certainly his description of the "real killer" fits RS, and the words 'AF' fit his name. I am not saying anything new here. Luke has already pointed this fact out in a previous post.
I just have this belief, opposite of Chris' belief that RS is involved. Who knows, maybe RG was trying to let the Police know who the murderer was by writing it on the wall while all three were working on the coverup.
It looks like somebody ran three fingers down the wall. The lines are too vertical - they do not look like somebody trying to draw an "A."
meman,
Yes that is a drip to be sure, but I am looking at the main aspect of the finger prints on the wall. Maybe I am wrong, but somehow, I feel that the blood on the wall is not a smear, but something else.
Blah,
Would you mine trying to imitate it with the fingers of your right hand. I believe the prints were made by the right and not the left hand.
To me...That looks more like something Meridith could have left,that fucked up night..Like she may have pressed up toward the wall at one point,then maybe pulled down...I don't know
Blah,
It is the middle, nice angular print that interests me. I just cannot repeat it. Maybe I am different. And I will just have to wait to hear RG's version of events.
The blood is thicker on top of all three lines. It looks simply like somebody was trying to wipe the blood of off his or her hand.
bpcl...Its just to hard to tell from the picture. I see it as just the first maybe,2-3 inches of the prints,the rest could just have been made from gravity,of the blood flow....did that make sense?....
Blah,
That might be an appropriate explanation. The first two prints were made,(and I can do that with just two fingers) and then the third print was done to get the rest off. The drip came from the first two finger prints.
That being said, I cannot rule out Pinecone's statement that it was a 'smear' A smear here being two separate movements to get rid of the blood.
That is a logical explanation and there is a lot of credence to it, giving what happened that night. In order to accept Pinecone's assumption that RG did the killing however, I would have to ignore three important things. The female figure caught on CCTV is not AF entering the premises around the same time as RG. I would have to accept the fact that RG was responsible for all of the cleanup. And I would have to accept RS not having an alibi, AK as well, and then also accept their ever changing, ever conflicting statements
bpcl...I am with you on the RS.....he is in deep too...That shoe print in court,is just like a fingerprint..
meman,
And we cannot say who made the prints either. It could have been Meredith as you say. What a sinister night it must have been.
Thats the only thing we know for sure........It was a fucked up night.trying to figure out the hidden meaning of Amanda's drawing,the press.....her letters....nope,it all comes down to the evidence..I have my own thoughts on this case,but I really hate typing...But for sure this case will heat up,the next few days
meman,
The stupid thought going through my mind is, "what if RS/Mr. X did do the killing" while RG was in the bathroom. Right there RG was screwed because he was now involved in a murder scene. What if he was subtlety trying to write down the initials that he stated had been whispered to him by a dying Meredith when RS came into the room forcing him to stop writing. The shoe print definitely implies that RS was in Meredith's room.
RG's lawyer says that at the very least, his client tried to stop the blood from flowing from Meredith's neck by placing a towel there. A killer would not care if his/her victim were bleeding.
I know it is all speculation on my part, and we will definitely learn more about this in the coming days.
meman,
Based on all the statements RG has made up to this point, it seems to me that he was a more passive participant than an active one. He was the only one who has stated that he tried to help Meredith. He actually has said two rather damming issues about both RS and AK really. He stated that Meredith was moaning that her money had been stolen and went to AK's room probably to look for it(a direct accusation). And he also said that the killer was Italian, smaller than him, with brown hair, with the initials 'AF' Luke has already pointed out his suspicions that this could be RS.
bpcl....Rudy will not, and just not, make sense to normal people.Granted he says,being Black,at the scene,may have convicted him right then and there.....but why did he not choose to make an anon,phone call to the proper people?(Police for one)..instead he went dancing?......Most Humans don't think like that..
I see nothing to disprove that is Rudy's hand print. He was trying to wipe the the blood away from the cut in his palm and smeared it so his fingerprints couldn't be lifted. From the visible drips of blood, I think I can safely assume he was still bleeding from his palm. I guess he didn't think about DNA. He wouldn't have volunteered the story about being injured, or about the "AF" he claims he wrote, if he hadn't left his own bloody mess behind. He also left a trail of blood droplets from Meredith's room to the bathroom.
I'd like to know more about Meredith's throat wounds. Even though the carotid artery was not severed, the esophagus/trachea could have been damaged. This would result in her aspirating and/or swallowing blood. Also, as a result of the attack, her heart rate would have been rapid, causing an accelerated rate of bleeding. As a person bleeds to death the various body systems shut down in an effort to conserve circulation to the brain and heart. The circulation to the arms and legs shuts down first, which means the victim won't be standing if they are to remain conscious. Next, the digestive system closes shop, causing dry heaves or vomiting. Also, about the same time, the kidneys start starving. This causes severe pain in the lower back. By the time it gets this far, there's not enough blood left to transport oxygen and sustain life without serious medical intervention.
It would take just a few seconds to strangle a person who was already almost dead from exsanguination.
pinecone......I have liked your posts......But..I am Not sure how you came to that conclusion,that is Rudys print?.........Help me understand
Because, Meman, it's a single hand print and the blood drips are where they should be if the palm were bleeding. I don't see any evidence of a group plot here. Why on God's green earth would anyone choose to be in cahoots with Rudy, unless they're making another Jackass movie?
Thanks Robert M.
I was worried you guys would think I was a real noob for thinking that.
I have been reading all along just not much of a blogger.
I do like to read crime fiction stories and watch CSI (the original).
Too bad this isn't fiction.
I thought about the pressure from a smaller foot inside the shoe but for someone that has already tried to frame one guy why not try with the shoes as well.
Throw enough darts and hope one will stick.
chris | 12.05.07 - 1:58 pm | #
"Nice Op-ed piece today in NewYorkTimes"
..."The only thing that Miss Egan forget to say, is that his father is Timothy Egan, for nearly 20
years journalist at the New York Times, which today is one of the Signatures tip of the page Op-Ed. It is as if Daughter of Enzo Biagi published an editorial on Corriere. But in mistreated world of Italian media such nepotism is not tolerated"...
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/
...3ba99c53b.shtml
Uh, ooops... Hey! NYT! Be careful to italian media... They, sometimes, works...
ciao
Pinecone: "It would take just a few seconds to strangle a person who was already almost dead from exsanguination."
You're right, and I'm sure this is what happened. RHG may have been the strangler, but there are various other candidates IMO.
If we accept that exsanguination had already severely (fatally) weakenend the victim, what was the purpose of the strangulation?
To make sure the victim really did die...
Or to put her out of her suffering...
If it was the second of these two options, this could mean that the strangulation was carried out by someone other than the main perp - the one who made the deep stab.
I would be very interested in your opinion on this.
meman | 12.06.07 - 12:17 am "...but why did he [RHG] not choose to make an anon,phone call to the proper people?(Police for one)..instead he went dancing?......Most Humans don't think like that.."
Meman, according to the Daily Telegraph, who have a correspondent actually in Perugia, ILE said that RHG was not seen later that night in the disco (there are no witnesses). The disco story seems to have appeared from thin air (although various another newspapers "reported" it). I posted a link to the DT article further up the thread. If the disco sighting has been confirmed, please let me know. Otherwise, it is mere rumor.
I am just wondering, this article that kermit posted:
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/ne...98487-20092572/
I am wondering if there are more people out there, than Mr&Ms X, that were thre that night and are not coming forward. You know, even if just to say they did or didn't hear anything but like, who they saw in the room say with them in the attack, and who they did not and what time. I wonder if that Formica woman was at the party? don' even know how old she is, so? even if Patrick was there. and they're pretending they were not there. JUST in order not to be fussed, I can't understand it, mks family want justice. Their statements could be integral. Just because Formica may have assumed it was RHG acting alone, well obviously people like her have a lot to think about, now they know different. It's time to forget thinking about themselves, the consequences for themselves, and tell all.
Thanks for that link Loz. And it's clarified who did that impromptu interview with RS, i.e. the Mirror's reporter (rather than the Mail's).
And who was the Mystery Caller?
It could have been 1. Mr X.... 2. husband/bf/colleague of RS's sister (the cop)... 3. daddykins (?) 4. RHG (??)
Frankly, I can't think of anybody else.
We can't give too much credence to what RHG has divulged. To my knowledge he has not revealed any information that wasn't widely available in the media. Admitting he was there hardly is cause for giving weight to his other statements. He couldn't very well deny it. He has, instead, tried to establish a credibility by manipulating the known facts so that later his lies(?) will be accepted. Unless RS/AK change their stories that may not be so hard. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. I can even sense signs of this working right here among us along with the sensitivity to his "outsider" status. Keep an eye on that sympathy gauge!
bpcl: "The stupid thought going through my mind is, "what if RS/Mr. X did do the killing" while RG was in the bathroom. Right there RG was screwed because he was now involved in a murder scene." bpcl | 12.06.07 - 12:10 am
I don't think it 'stupid' at all. It's the most original and useful information posted here in quite some time IMHO and it is a thought that merits pursuing while we wait for the big news just around the bend.
Robert M. | 12.05.07 - 8:13
i left for a while because of the racist fantasists and posters going over old ground having been mislead by... ta-dah - the INACCURATE relating of the few facts that are known. (heard that before)
although you post considered comments your lack of concern for the facts is worrisome.
thanks for imagining my motivations and mid-set but you really dont have enough to go on. good thing for me i know myself.
there is an occult nature to this crime, i would stage a wager on it.
keep the standards high and lets pray for a serious break when the vampire gets back to umbria.
.
From the bloodied hand print I think, whoever dragged there hand down the wall, then stopped with their fingertips against the wall. To me the lines & very extreme tips are ‘askew/disjointed’, so maybe they lifted their hand very briefly. Opposite hands used? You can actually see it was their left hand from the dots.
Ah, they put their left hand on the wall while dragging their right hand right down to the left, perhaps even interlocking their fingers to hold on to the left hand? Nah. same hand? But a way to explain the drip is when the ‘dot’ prints were made the left thumb was folded in just touching the wall.
RS did not respond to the PM's questions this morning.
His lawyers said that he said everything that he wanted to say to judge Ricciarelli last week.
Folks, does anyone have an exact timeline of the early days of the investigations? I believe Knox was first brought in on Nov.5th and questioned without the presence of a lawyer until late at night. She was then detained on the morning of Nov.6th. It appears she got a lawyer on Nov.7th and was interrogated again on Nov.8th, this time in the presence of her lawyer.
Does anyone know the exact time of these events, and if/why she didn't ask or was not allowed to have a lawyer during the first interrogation?
rob? he's just running from his ethnicity
belle | 12.03.07 - 7:59 pm
yeah belle it just keeps following me no matter where i go or what i do.
but if i could get away with a crime by being a traitor to it i suppose i would..
but alas it is preposterous and impossible for all.
I LOVE the big a drawing from the big house.. so many occult symbols and so INNOCENT!!
i wonder if it is real or some paparazzi journalist got his kid to do it..
obla-di-obla-da (fortissimo)
(stretching noises)
this is great! when will i get another post saying how hot i am?...
hope y'all get it
......
ciao damian!
any news on whether patrick will be able to re-open le chic soon?
any talk of what went on in that house before this September?
hope you are well...
.
Raffaele considers not be violent," said one of the lawyers Marco Brusco (the college is composed by Maori and Titian Luke Tedeschi), in reiterating that will be presented in Cassation also appeal against the decision of the review, fragile-maybe yes but not violent, and therefore believes that it was not an outline responding to what is his personality.
If I understand this quote correctly (Google translation), RS' lawyers are appealing the decision to keep him in prison based on their assertion--and the courts statement--that his temperment is not a violent one("fragile, yes, but not violent.).
I think it is so interesting that the legal system in Italy utilizes subjective personality assesments as a basis for legal decisions...
Perhaps my understanding of this is wrong?
La Stampa link: http://www.lastampa.it/
redazione...28212girata.asp
rob, I was just joshing!?! and everyone thinks your hot, today the forum on Rai3 is called "rob, un viso d'angelo?" they're talking about your 'soft hair' and 'big blue eyes' feel better? if not, try drawing a landscape, stick trees are so 'serene'
Robert M. | 12.05.07 - 8:13 pm |
Great post.
bpcl commented:
"Luke,
Can you please look at the bloody fingerprints left on the wall at the crime site. I just re-examined them and if you look very closely, you can almost make out a 'A' and a 'F'. Let me know what you think?"
I don't see much other than bloody fingertips swiping a wall. If that is an "AF," Rudy is as skillful writing as he is lying. (not very.)
Are these reports now that Rafe is fragile but NOT violent?
Why did he refuse to speak today???
Middie | Homepage | 12.06.07 - 3:48 am | #
--It is good to hear that Italian media does not tolerate nepotism.
I was aware that this girls family was her way into getting her peice in NYT. But I am so use to that crap here in the U.S., I forgot about how wrong that is. Thank you for the reminder.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith106.xml
I think Rafe did speak, he just refused to answere questions. Seems as though this was more about his lawyers having something to say. Too bad.
Instead he was at Capanne jail where another suspect Raffaele Sollecito, 24, had asked to speak to Mr Mignini to "clarify matters."
He refused to answer questions and simply repeated his story that he was at home on the night of the murder working on his computer.
But police and prosecutors say that there is no evidence of "human activity" on his Toshiba between 9pm and 6am.
Today Sollecito's lawyers Marco Brusco and Luca Maori also appealed to police to find the real murder weapon.
Mr Brusco said:"I appeal with the utmost urgency to the police that an extensive search is made for the murder weapon that was used to kill poor Meredith.
"There has not been a thorough search of the area around the flat, especially in undergrowth beneath the building and this is vital."
First time I have seen in awhile the mention of Rudy DNA inside of Amanda.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...student.murder/
In addition to the bloody print, DNA tests have also linked Guede to the villa through skin cells found on toilet paper there, prosecutors say.
A vaginal swab taken from the body of Kercher was matched to DNA from Guede, according to a source in the prosecutor's office in Perugia.
"First time I have seen in awhile the mention of Rudy DNA inside of Amanda."
I read the article over three times an did not see any mention of Rudy's DNA inside AMANDA.
Typo?
though I'm sure it is something that had happened on more than one occasion.
LUKE: "A vaginal swab taken from the body of Kercher was matched to DNA from Guede, according to a source in the prosecutor's office in Perugia."
Interesting that the other site Rudy evidence, finger print, toilet paper, "prosecutors say."
But the DNA evidence from the swab, is from "source in the prosecutor's office "
So this means that the prosecutors do not want to official state that evidence. It is just a leak, so who knows if it is actually true.
OH TYPO!!! I meant to say KERCHER NOT AMANDA. sorry luke
I'd have to see some kind of psychological profile of Rudy to help explain his bizarre behavior that night. He looked like he had a decent upbringing and had all the opportunities available to him. But genetically he may have had significant problems. Drug usage would explain some, but he may have started to develop a form of schizophrenia. He wasn't able to charm girls the way he used to, and was spiraling out of control. He was reduced to sleeping in barges, and petty theft. He probably wasn't even a good drug dealer. I doubt he could hold a steady job.
I'm sure he had periods of time where he could clean up his act. His adopted father didn’t even want him the around the house anymore. I haven’t seen many reports of violence . But his utube video was extremely weird, and was probably prone to increasingly erratic behavior . Not somebody I’d want around the house, or see at a sex party. I doubt if he was ‘getting it much’ anymore, and was always on the look or desperate for sex opportunities.
This is from 24minuti, (our evening Metro paper, see url) followed by my shoddy translation... at least I was able to correct every time they translated RS last name as 'Prompt'
Basically, I think he refused questions (afraid of screwing up the story ((again)) in front of judges?)by saying he'd already answered them. And he wants to finish his thesis in jail. Got to have priorities, right?
http://www.24minuti.ilsole24ore..../Milano/
5.shtml
Omicidio di Perugia,
Rudy arrivato in Italia
Sollecito non risponde ai giudici
Rudy Hermann Guede, il quarto uomo dell’indagine dei giudici di Perugia sull’omicidio di Meredith Kercher, è in Italia. Consegnato dalla Germania e scortato da agenti dell’Interpol, il giovane ivoriano è giunto poco prima delle ore 13 all’aeroporto di Fiumicino con un volo di linea da Francoforte, dove era stato condotto dal carcere di Coblenza. Sempre questa mattina si è avvalso della facoltà di non rispondere, Raffaele Sollecito, in carcere assieme ad Amanda Knox, con l’accusa di aver ucciso Meredith Kercher. Nel corso dell’interrogatorio, il giovane barese non ha infatti risposto alle domande del pubblico ministero Giuliano Mignini. Era stato lo stesso Sollecito a chiedere, prima dell’udienza del tribunale del Riesame che ha confermato la custodia cautelare in carcere, di essere sentito. Sollecito, hanno spiegato i suoi legali all’uscita dal carcere, non ha risposto in quanto i chiarimenti che voleva fornire li aveva già dati nel corso dell’udienza davanti ai giudici del Riesame.I suoi avvocati hanno anche precisato che Sollecito vuole finire in carcere la tesi per laurearsi in informatica entro il prossimo gennaio.
Homicide of Perugia,
Rudy has arrived in Italy
Sollecito doesn't respond to the judges
Rudy Hermann Guede, the fourth man investigated by the judges of Perugia on the homicide of Meredith Kercher, is in Italy. Delivered from Germany and escorted by agents of the Interpol, the young Ivorian was joined just before 13:00 at the airport of Fiumicino after a flight from Frankfurt, where he was lead to the jail of Coblenza. At all times this morning the right to remain silent was taken by Raffaele Sollecito, in jail along with Amanda Knox, accused of having killed Meredith Kercher. In the course of the interrogation, the young man from Bari has in fact not answered the questions of the prosecuting attorney Giuliano Mignini. It was the same Sollecito to ask, first the audience of the court of the Re-examination that had confirmed his precautionary custody in jail, of being felt. Sollecito, his lawyers have explained to release from jail, has not answered in how much the clarifications asked to supply were already given in the course of the audience before the judges of the Re-examination. His lawyers have also specified that Sollecito wants to finish in jail, the thesis in order to graduate in computer science next January.
sorry, the phrasing gets particularly weak near the end I was getting tired of it! Hope you get the gist.
Can't say I'd care much about finishing a thesis or graduating if I was locked up for a crime I didn't commit and had my FREEDOM hanging in the balance.
To me, this shows the same emotional detachment/disconnect from reality and consequences as Amanda has shown.
Guess it fits in with the tender embraces and kissing at the crime scene, as well as the shopping for lingerie the next day.
I can't make heads or tails of this guy....
People are getting degree's in jail all the time. Guilty or unguilty. If he gets a degree maybe the court will believe him more. No sense sitting there and banging your head against the wall all day.
can i just retract that the 'dots' of blood come from a hand, but now unsure which hand, it is 'disjointed from the swipe, so is either the other hand or they swiped, briefly lifted, and placed hand there again.
it looks 'clawed' slightly. there must have been some reason why the thumb was folded under, as if the hand was holding something but that looks impossible (that I also think was very bloody because of the 2 heaviest spots of blood)?
as pinecome said, like to know about rhgs hand injury.
the occult nature, regards an 8" puncture wound? A weapon of opportunity? wonder if any objects were missing from the rooms. and like to know what hallowe'en props there were lying around.
People are getting degree's in jail all the time. Guilty or unguilty. If he gets a degree maybe the court will believe him more. No sense sitting there and banging your head against the wall all day.
DLW | 12.06.07 - 11:57 am | #
Rafe reads like he simply wants to get on with his life and not be inconvenienced any further by this "situation."
RS and thesis, etc..
1) Maybe be doing it cause his father wants him to. I remember in beginning dads statements that RS would finsh school work in jail
2) Makes it look like he is innocent and confident that his innocence will be proven
3) what else is there to do in jail anyway.The destraction of doing school work is probably a healthy repite.
4) Why do they keep talking about RS doing his scholl work? Is it because they need special materials thus special permission from the court? Doubt it. This is more about PR and trying to make an image for RS.
ILE did state they believe her body was moved around. Had to be if she was killed on her knees by the wardrobe –Rob M So on her knees, anyone man or woman would have the ‘height advantage’ regarding the angle of the wound. I guess that is why they suspect her jeans were not taken off before stabbing, because of no blood on her lower body, even if she was on her hands too because it would be hard not to get blood on her legs. You see, they may have washed her jeans. But to me, RHG may have had bloody hands after the jeans were taken off if he you know on the bed. He must have been assisted. Or was at the head of the bed, if he was, after, and she was not assaulted on her bed. If that’s his hand print on the wall. Looks to me like people could have been coming and going throughout. He did mention his bathroom break.
And that article I posted above, said something about MKs bfs love-note being placed by her bed, and RS stating MK had a bf which she did, just shows you the level of manipulation evidence if this is true. (Rob M)…if I could only have stopped one PERP, I'd have stopped the woman… and even if you didn’t do that, you could have fled but phoned police as to a major attack going on at that time then. Why didn’t they? Unless AK had injuries to suggest that this is what MK or some other partygoer did? You know, I always wondered if MK kept RHGs hair in her hand throughout. (Rob M) ILE does not have that leverage to make them concentrate on saving their individual forfeited lives indeed, how to get anyone involved to talk. I personally think that whatever, they had in mind to kill her in the end. But I guess as leverage, they could offer a ‘deal’ and see what they get of Murder2 being less of a stretch than Murder1 AND I wonder if them putting all the blame on AK when people might know it was not all her, will make people come forward. And who knows if that’s what has prompted RHG to completely vindicate her? (chris) If that footprint of RS was made by Amanda wearing his shoes ( like she wore his underwear) wore his underwear during? God, the male/female thing for her is really screwed up isn’t it. But what makes me assume she didn’t wear his shoes is that he would have had to have taken them off, or been asleep while she took them or one otherwise he’d notice, she could have just ‘carried’ his shoe. (a2) I think that if any one of these 3 were truly innocent agreed, they so would have ratted the other(s) out too even if that puts them there. You see RHG claiming he helped her, and pointing the finger, well that’s jut because he can’t deny being there, so he’s trying to broker a deal or not look so bad. It really takes me aback, that MK is the furthest thing from anyone’s mind, that what happened to her doesn’t ‘get them’ so much so that they just stop being selfish. To me, this is one of the things that I can’t get my head around (chris) I think it was the threat to reveal that kicked this al
(chris) I think it was the threat to reveal that kicked this all off. very likely. I just think though they are cold, premed. They would have cracked by now, out of sorrow for MK & family by now. I don’t see much rage in one stab, I could be wrong. (Rob M) she has no CONSCIOUS idea of how bad it is for her I think this could be true. But, if RSs blog comments were not hearsay, and further compounded by a friendship/pact with Alberto. AK could be resting on her laurels in the knowledge he is going to be perceived as a cold blooded pre-med, and she not the one who dealt the deadly blow. Arguably, she could have no idea how bad assisted rape & murder is. And now, RHG is set to vindicate her. The only thing is her blood, and despite her skirting around ‘THAT night, of THE murder, and the SITUATION’, where is the remorse, is she scared to ‘live’ any remorse for MK or family because it is very harrowing and would compel her to confess? I just keep thinking back to that menses blood that she says she assumes her HM didn’t clean up. Now come on, that’s evil, that sticks out like a sore thumb & contrasts so sharply. And what if she is purposefully skirting around it, to cover to the outside, not herself, any Freudian Slip, and detail. The closest she came was “my involvement [[in MKs murder(para)]]What if it’s because she sees MK as a FIGMENT, not real, as an object, she certainly was objectified that night – why do you assume that would change in AK if heavily involved Unless what you’re saying is, she feels no remorse for anyone – BUT complexly, that it doesn’t do her ego any good to be ‘seen’ by herself & others as so violent. (pinecone) it was the sight of his own blood that infuriated him into strangling M makes sense, even if MK didn’t draw his blood & it was he who had been ‘careless’, he’d certainly blame it on her. Bt as bpcl says, we await his ‘hearing’ thingy. THNG IS some1/2/3 came armed, now one stab wound doesn’t equate. Bodily injuries from hitting, for sure, but some1 had a knife beforehand, why choose to hit, then revert to a single stab? (Luke) so we must trust that those on the inside know the deal you have NO IDEA how bad it could be for him, lots of Italians know, if it wasn’t comments constructed by someone. Then he is a very sinister man/dog/pig whatever. sky news covering RHGs return to Italy. He seemed ‘shocked’ at the size of the press gathering, but then as he went into the van, he popped his head round. Even still, MK is furthest thing from his mind, and he likes the celebrity (AndyT) strangulation was carried out by someone other than the main perp - the one who made the deep stab. Right so her gums were bruised, which may be to do with the dead heavy stuff pinecone posted on bleeding to death, or smothering/strangulation. But I wonder in the moving of the body it was a post mortem injury, or not a ‘caring’ act? Or even happened BEFORE the stabbing?
whoops, too big. sorry
sorry, the phrasing gets particularly weak near the end I was getting tired of it! Hope you get the gist.
belle | 12.06.07 - 11:33 am | #
Thank-you Belle....much better than Google Translation!
I don't think Meredith threatened to call the cops if he/they didn't stop their sexual advances.That implied threat is always there. At some point after Meredith began struggling Rudy realized there was no turning back.
Thanks Rhonda, they can only get better
belle | 12.06.07 - 9:54 am
thanks belle! so many think i am hot i have considered getting an assistant to deal with the many correspondences and propositions i am receiving.
also i thank you for the encouragement in my ARTISTIC pursuit of relief from this situation of terrible confusion.
i like hills and bushes as long as they have a dark or masculine names and character like 'black' hills or degrading names like 'scrub' brush for those bushes.
anyhow, life is great and i am looking forward to my next outing tomorrow when i will sing, sing, sing and strech (sic) my weary climbers legs.
thanks for your support, i am soooo looking forward to being totally free.....so long suckers
.
keep singing rob, ur the best
http://www.corriere.it/english/
a...evergnini.shtml
This is Beppe Severgnini's response to Sophie Egan (in english) from today's Corriere.
obla-di-obla-da baby!
hey damian...no gossip at all about the 'house of horrors"?
.
Sorry Rob...can't help you there..but I think it was a student house just like any other..until the murder.
fair enough damian, just wondered if it position leant it to 'outrageous' partying in the past...
any word from Patrick on re-opening?
.
damian, thanks for the link! Bepe's always good, funny and disturbing but usually right on point. ugh, celebrity AK here for years to come? Maybe she can do the next duet with Ramazzotti.
ha ha belle!
as long as she finally gets her guitar!!!
.
Can't help you there either I'm afraid! But I read this in yesterday's 'La Nazione' newspaper; (it was in the umbrian supplement, which may be a slight step up from the local rags)
They claim RS wrote this in his prison diary ('Appunti di un Viaggio')
"Mentre cucinavo ho punto la mano di Meredith con un coltello e le ho chiesto scusa...ma lei ha detto che non importava. Ecco perche c'e il suo dna..."
'While I was cooking I pricked (I think this would be the best translation, Middie help!) Meredith's hand with a knife and I apologised..but she said it didn't matter..that's why her dna...'
I can't find a link to this, probably because it was in the Umbian edition but maybe somebody else can...
As ever, make of it what you will.
i love your approach to all this shit damian, you are a gem...
.
If that it is true that RS wrote that, why is AK's DNA on the handle, and not his own? If his DNA had been found there, it would have made quite a stir with the police and newspapers, no?
'While I was cooking I pricked (I think this would be the best translation, Middie help!) Meredith's hand with a knife and I apologised..but she said it didn't matter..that's why her dna...'
damian | 12.06.07 - 1:56 pm | #
If this ends up being true, to me this would be a huge development. Let us know if you hear any more info.
http://lanazione.quotidiano.net/firenze/
People, this is the paper it came from. As you say, I guess if it's true we'll hear about it soon enough.
Damian,
Has there been any local talk (rumors) about the mystery couple??
Rob,
Good to see you back. Respect.
'While I was cooking I pricked (I think this would be the best translation, Middie help!) Meredith's hand with a knife and I apologised..but she said it didn't matter..that's why her dna...'
damian | 12.06.07 - 1:56 pm | #
I can't view the article, (keep getting directed to a page where they want €€)
do you remember what it originally said in Italian? I'm very curious about this.
Luke,
You were under the impression that RS might say something new this morning. To be honest, I thought you might be right, or rather I was hoping he might say something new.
His silence speaks volumes and further leads me to believe that he is involved in the murder of Meredith. No innocent man would sit in prison like that and ask only if he can finish his thesis. I just do not get it. If this man is so innocent, why is he not explaining to the judge his reasons for innocence.
I do not understand how anyone here can put forth the proposition that the murder of Meredith Kercher was committed by a lone drug addict.
The facts as presented here by so many posters belies this fact as well as the evidence found around in and around the crime scene. RS and AK are as involved in this crime as is RG. I sure hope that the Magistrate will be able to get RG to talk, as it seems to me now, that both RS and AK will say nothing further. I forget who, but somebody here said that it will be up to the forensics now to determine the truth of the matter. For the moment however, all three of these suspects have been placed in the cottage on the night of the murder, or the day after.
Your take?
Chris,
I have not definitively heard that the Prosecutor's office has said that DNA from RG has been found on the body of Meredith. I have heard various statements about this evidence, however, since I do not hear about it on a daily basis and it is not appearing in the reasoning from the judge in this case(on the matter of holding a suspect) I do not believe it to be true. The official report does say that a bloody finger print as well as a finger print on a tissue napkin as been positively linked to to RG.
I believe that it is critical that there is forensic evidence of RS and AK's involvement in the crime. If RS is now explaining away Meredith's DNA on the one knife, there goes the most damning piece of evidence against AK.
Perhaps that is why RS' lawyers are pushing for the police to look for the murder weapon. They are going to say that this knife w the DNA was not it.
Chris reported:
He refused to answer questions and simply repeated his story that he was at home on the night of the murder working on his computer.
But police and prosecutors say that there is no evidence of "human activity" on his Toshiba between 9pm and 6am
Why can't RS's lawyers prove that he was on his computer instead of going on a fishing expedition, looking for a murder weapon. What does that have to do with him establishing the most important thing for himself; a proper alibi. Needless to say, if he continues to persist that he was on his computer, why did he not answer th e telephone call from his father at 11:00 pm. You cannot be stoned, asleep and surfing the net at the same time can you?
a2,
To answer this question, you have to ask it properly. Why did the Police find this knife in RS's flat thoroughly washed in bleach. This has not been explained by RS to the Police as well as the newly purchased bleach bottles found in his flat.
Thanks, bpcl. I see your point.
But, if it is RS' knife, and he took it to AK's flat to cook, he might well take it home again after. The bleach? RS does seem to be a bit Howard Hughsey on the cleaning front, and could claim that because he had pricked M's finger, he felt he needed to clean it w bleach before he used it again.
You and i know that this is ridiculous, but most of their stories have been. No reason to change now. I have the feeling that the agreed upon strategy is to deny, deny, deny. I believe that they knew that RG's DNA would be found(its all that they meant to leave behind), and he would be implicated. I just hope he starts talking...
a2,
In law, when you have the facts, you argue the facts; when the facts do not support your argument, why then, use the law to the best of your ability to argue away the facts.
Unless, RG talks(which I am hoping he will) I have no proof to say which of the three committed the actual murder. Chances are, it was a male. At the very least, the forensic evidence, some of which we know, and some of which we do not know, will convict these three people.
I honestly do not think any of them will admit to killing Meredith, let alone being there, with the exception of RG. I suspect RG will just state that a boogey man killed Meredith rather than tell the whole truth about what happened there that night. In other words, he will not want to convict either RS or AK. All of these three suspects have, in one way or another, admitted the truth of what happened that night. It is just not in a cohesive manner for us to say, a 'aha' moment if you will.
I believe that all three will be convicted of the murder of Meredith Kercher and will go to jail saying that they had nothing to do with her death(like most murderers do), that they are somehow innocent of the crime.
The thing that bothers me the most about all three of them, something that I find repugnant, is that they let Meredith die in her own blood and none of them, have deeply expressed their heartfelt sorrow to her or her family. Psychologically, I think the reason for this is, that it is her fault(Meredith I mean) that they are in the predicament they are in. There really is no proper punishment for any of the three either because they are all so narcissistic in nature. They cannot be punished properly because they have no feeling about anybody else except themselves. They really do deserve each other I think. The confluence of their flawed characters brought them together and also, to commit this heinous act against someone who trusted them.
a2,
And you could be right about leaving RG's DNA behind in order to implicate him. RG stated that the assailant said to him "the Police will not believe a black man' or something to that effect. It may be the reason why AK was using the s**t word over and over again the following day at the Police precinct(trying to lead the trail to RG). I have never encountered a woman like AK before in my life. I would have difficulty describing her to someone else. I admire women greatly, and have impressions of most when I either meet, see or hear them, but AK definitely takes the cake. She is really low on the evolutionary scale in my book.
Thanks, bcpl. I do think that the suspects will do their utmost to argue away the forensic evidence. But you're right that there is probably more evidence than we (and hopefully they) are aware of.
I also have the impression (correct me if Im wrong) that in Italy, you need only to have a preponderence of evidence, and that can include circumstantial evidence, to convict.
That would be different than the US where you have to prove guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt.
And yes, AK is a piece of work. Poor Meredith got caught in perfect storm of abberant personalities.
a2,
Actually, I do not know much of anything about the Italian justice system and how it works. One thing that I am grateful for is that the Italian authorities moved quickly to separated both RS and AK, and have refused to back down on their belief that both of them were involved in the murder. That is a very good sign.
Justice is always extremely slow, as it should be, and RS/AK/RG will have their day in court. And it is my belief that neither of them will see the proper light of day for many, many years to come.
damian | 12.06.07 - 1:56 pm | #
-- wow that retort to the NYT piece was really interesting and well done, thank you.
Belle-- Damina at 1:30 pasted the orignial story in Italian I think.
bpcl | 12.06.07 - 2:56 pm | # --Correct--the prosecutors office as not said that Rudy DNA in Amanda. IT has only been leaked from a source from the prosecutors office-- which makes me doubt that it is true.
a2 | 12.06.07 - 2:58 pm | # --RS lawyers are already saying knife with DNA not it!
DLW | 12.06.07 - 12:32 pm | # --O was theorizing that the situation got violent when Meredith threatened to call the cops on AK and RUdy for doing drugs and taking her money. They retrained her from being able to do that, and then the violence started
If RS bleached the knife himself, then it is very suspect!!! BUt, maybe AK bleached it--who knows.
Damian,
That is what I have believed all along. And so if RG's DNA is not on her body, that could rule out a sexual assault taking place. And if this is true, this makes me believe that something else happened there that night. Which gets back to the theory about the stolen money being the cause for the argument. This might explain RG's statement that Meredith was angry about her money being stolen and confronting AK about it; and a fight ensuing between the two while RG was in the bathroom. In my opinion, there is no reason for RG to be showing up there that night other than to complete a drug deal or receive money for some. He has tried to clear out AK for some reason which I do not know. She has never mentioned him other than to put him on a list of possible people who might have known Meredith.
Damian, do you know whether or not it has been confirmed that both AK and RG were talking via cell phone the day before and the day after the murder?
Chris,
If both the cottage and RS's flat had been completely bleached down, per the Police, chances are, it is RS's idea and not AK's or at the very least, both of their ideas together.
AK tried to allude a reasoning for this in her rambling statement where she stated that the pipes underneath the kitchen sink were broken that night and had to be cleaned up.
I think both of them were involved in the clean up.
bpcl | 12.06.07 - 5:03 pm | #
Amanda also made that statement re pipes breaking to justify her mop being at his house. I have not seen in any statements from RS about a flood, and the mop
bpcl: "He has tried to clear out AK for some reason which I do not know."
If (big if) RHG has been telling the truth (most of the time) and is innocent ("the RHG in the bathroom scenario"), I just wonder whether he has held back on AK in the hope that RS will feel under increasing pressure to "confess" to his part in the crime, thus implicating AK as the main perp.
If it's really true that RHG was shit scared (whoops) of being framed for the crime, then logically his best strategy is to get one of the real perps (the one with the lesser role in the murder, and thus with less to lose) to grass on the other (the main perp).
RHG may have thought of this strategy himself (he had a few days to think about things) and/or his lawyers may think this is the best strategy.
To be sure of being able to prove his innocence, RHG needs RS to implicate AK.
Chris et al.
I agree with your theory that when Meredith threatened to call the cops, unless AK and/or RG returned the money, led to this conflagration. That lit the fuse to whatever was in the powder keg.
I think my old theory of when more than one person is at fault, nobody is at fault is going to be proven wrong.
Chris,
RG said he was at the cottage at 8:38 pm and said that Meredith arrived 8 minutes later, or at 8:46 pm. We know this to not be true because the female figure seen entering the premises at 8:46 pm looks more like AK. Meredith's friends say they left her at 9:00 pm and AndyT's and xin's timeline show Meredith entering at 9:15 pm. We also know that a person of NA descent rapidly left the house at around 10:30 pm. This leads me to conclude that Meredith was either dead or near death. RG stated that Meredith was upset about stolen money and went to AK's room. He has also stated that he was in the bathroom when he heard Meredith scream.(this might explain why AK's room was so clean; AK had to remove any doubt that Meredith was there and that is where the fight started etc.) RG also stated that when he left, she was still breathing.(if we are to believe him) Assuming AK had no one to help her hide the crime, we must assume(I think we have to) that she called RS. The Police have stated that no one was on the computer from 9:00 pm to 6:00 am. RS could have been at the flat, but doing nothing unusual. Maybe he was smoking a joint and was just not in the proper capacity to do anything like surf the net or anything like that. AK makes her call to him and he comes to the cottage to arrange and facilitate the cleanup.
This might explain why he could not answer his father's call at 11:00 pm nor anything else for that matter. I think the cleanup took a long time. AK's room had to be cleaned, Meredith's room had to be faked, her body moved, blood on the wall, Filomena's room had to be ransacked, and the room downstairs had to be tainted, etc,etc.
This would put RS in the clear in so far as the murder is concerned, but he is in the hock for having participated in the cleanup.(his shoe print is there, although there will be a fight over that I am sure by the lawyers) It might also explain his reticence today and might also explain his statement, "if I am here, it is the fault of my girlfriend Amanda."
And this might also explain two things. Your belief that RS was not involved in the actual murder(He was not seen on CCTV) and that the crime is a lot more simple then all of us wish to believe here. The perps, in this case both AK and RS had to make it look like either a break-in, a robbery or a sexual assault; take your pick.
rob: me and my friends think your hot
AndyT,
Yes, you are correct in your assumptions.
Luke,
You were under the impression that RS might say something new this morning. To be honest, I thought you might be right, or rather I was hoping he might say something new.
His silence speaks volumes and further leads me to believe that he is involved in the murder of Meredith. No innocent man would sit in prison like that and ask only if he can finish his thesis. I just do not get it. If this man is so innocent, why is he not explaining to the judge his reasons for innocence.
I do not understand how anyone here can put forth the proposition that the murder of Meredith Kercher was committed by a lone drug addict.
The facts as presented here by so many posters belies this fact as well as the evidence found around in and around the crime scene. RS and AK are as involved in this crime as is RG. I sure hope that the Magistrate will be able to get RG to talk, as it seems to me now, that both RS and AK will say nothing further. I forget who, but somebody here said that it will be up to the forensics now to determine the truth of the matter. For the moment however, all three of these suspects have been placed in the cottage on the night of the murder, or the day after.
Your take?
bpcl | 12.06.07 - 2:51 pm |
Truthfully, I am really surprised that Rafe didn't speak up. You are right, it speaks volumes for his participation in the crime, whatever aspect that may be.
All three were there in that cottage at some point. I still wonder why the surveillance camera doesn't place Rafe there. That was really one of the main reasons my opinion started to shift. Now it's back to square one.
Time to remember Charlie, poor guy, wasn't even there, sent to death row, got lucky when the Cali legislature temporarily lifted death penalty, now he rots on death row.
All convictions are circumstantial.
Anybody want to let Charlie out of the Q? (San Quentin).
An exaggerated point...none of these are Manson-like, but all are tricksters.
(it's a pisser but RS's attorneys made a smart move today; and now they wait to see what Rudy will say)
Poor Meredith, our little sister.
bcpl - "They cannot be punished properly because they have no feeling about anybody else except themselves"
----------------------
This is soooo true. They are devoid of conscience - the very thing that stops most of us committing crimes (never mind those as violent as this).
People without conscience are very dangerous. They cannot feel genuine remorse for their actions, because they have no feelings, sympathy or compassion for anyone.
How is it possible (with a conscience) for Knox to 'sing' and have 'fun' with her new roomies when her flatmate just died such a horrible horrible death? What about some semblance of grief? Let's face it, this was a nasty bloodied and frezied attack, possibly drawn out for hours, yet Knox is breezy, chatty and confident.
How must Meredith's family feel to see the suspects acting so blase as if nothing happened that night - when they KNOW they are the ones who know the truth?
The suspects behaviour is not helping Meredith's family to know what happened to their daughter - and they've made it clear they DO want to know. So for all 3 of them to maintain this ridiculous steadfast denial of the truth, is quite typical behaviour of those with no conscience. They are soulless and detached - we have seen this from the start.
One way or another, the truth will come out - and all they are doing is prolonging the Kercher's pain. But hey, they already know this - and of course none of them care. You can't force someone to have a conscience - either it's there, or it's not. These people are lost causes.
----------------------------
Sorry--error--Manson is not rotting on death row...he is rotting (metaphorically since he's doing just fine) at Corcoran State Prison in Cali's central valley (San Joaquin Valley where your veggies come from), at the prison where the guards had gladiator games with one segment (race, i believe) of the prison population battled another segment to the delight of the guards. A civil rights case settled on behalf the prisoners.
I remember seeing the Manson girls kneeling and swooning, on their knees, with swastika's cut on to their foreheads,singing about Charlies in front of the LA County Superior Court. This former hippie college girl was on the way in to support war protestors being arraigned and charged with disturbing the peace.
That's why I also cannot rule out some sort of twisted occult touch and connection. Perhaps triggered in part by their Halloween *research*.
Deep down inside, they're different. But their silly talk, Amanda's childish girlie behavior and disassociated manner do remind me of the Manson family, at least for now.
All about them.
Since the beginning of the blog, I have needed to visualize the interior of the house. The Italian Matrix series briefly showed the floor plan, which I developed.
Don't laugh, I put together a PowerPoint file which if you view in Presentation mode allows you to compare different areas of the house.
Download it here (button on left)
http://www.mediafire.com/?4fxx2y2g5h9
My sketch of the Meredith's room is more or less on - don't know if she had a computer there. The bathroom she shared with Amanda is a small, end of the hall affair. Some newspaper articles spoke of a bidet; once I had a similar bathroom in France with a swing-out bidet which was normally stowed under the sink. I put a shower there rather than a bathtub, not much room for the former. That bathroom gets natural light through a sky-light.
I didn't have any snaps to visualize Laura's and Filomena's bedrooms. I fact I'm not sure which is which (I'd say that Filomena's is on the right, I saw a number of photos with ILE outside getting forensic evidence under that window.
((OT: whatever happened to those days of war protest?))
Chris, thanks but it was the excerpt from La Nazione re RS prison journal I was trying to find.
I agree, Bepe's piece was very good (as he always is) funny and disturbing.
Soozie, good post. It's important always to remember Meredith's family throughout this, obviously something the three suspects know nothing about. "Kercher? why does that name ring a bell..."
Kermit, good presentation, thanks
Regarding Rudy's DNA being found on post-mortem vaginal swab of Meredith:
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...k-
germania.html
OR
http://tinyurl.com/33gsu5
4 December la Repubblica
Nella casa del delitto la polizia scientifica ha individuato l'impronta di una mano insanguinata di Guede, sul cuscino accanto al corpo di Meredith. Tracce del suo Dna sono state poi rilevate su un tampone vaginale eseguito durante l'autopsia della studentessa.
GOOGLE TRANSLATE:
In the house of the police scientific crime has identified the imprint of a bloody hand of Guede, on the pillow next to the body of Meredith. Traces of his DNA were later found on a vaginal swab performed during the autopsy of the student.
******
There is a recent mention of RG's DNA on/in Meredith. Also, once again, seems that this "tampone" is a *vaginal swab taken during post-mortem* and NOT a menstrual tampon. All the talk about RG jamming tampons in MK during sexual assault and excitement over menstrual blood seems to me to be inexcusably off-base and lacking in respect to MK. Haven't seen that on here in last day and hope it is over unless reports of evidence change and develops some relevance to such ideas.
The English newspapers that apparently mistranslated this information and fuelled such discussions should print a retraction, IMO. This mistake in the British press must have caused additional suffering to MK's family (if that is possible, or added an unnecessary new aspect to their deep suffering).
The sloppy and irresponsible reporting in this case has removed virtually any remaining respect for journalism that I had. The Italian press seems to have done a much better job than British and American.
Sooz: you've articulated that quality that is reminding me about the Manson Fam.
((Jenny: NOT Jennysthoughts--wonderful descripton on the art work, you are an art historian at heart?))
(and others, nice group job on the illustration interpretation--i will string those together for my notes)
Thanks to all for helping with original documentation. WIll organize and work with Dr.Psych on it, and then send to Steve to review prior to posting.
I was able to enlarge the blood prints were we looking at yesterday, but could ot get the enlargement to load up--so..my observation...three fingers moving vertically, top to bottom. The little smear that looks like a cross rather appears to be a spontaneous sort of smear.
No apparent initials, and I do NOT BELIEVE MK whispered shit to rudy, besides please...stop...you're hurting me...help me...stop...please...i don't want to die...i want to see my mother again...her birthday...
(with apologies for euphemism---shit)
that's interesting. so they didn't *talk*, she kept to herself but one night or that night we all had dinner together.
very nice little catch damian. we shall wait to see if this omes up again. HOW THE FUCK do you cut someone's hand accidentally while making dinner? even this klutz has not seen that happen before.
thanks kermie. looking now. i've been trying to find a site where we can dump data and pix, but now flickr has this weird password thing. will carry on with this project.
geeks: we need a website where we can dump word docs, photos and graphics to pool our info..i'll help catalog, and have a start on it. Kermie--i'm including this if it's ok.
xin | 12.06.07 - 7:19 pm | #
Do whatever you want to with it. I'll try to improve it, as further information comes out (e.g. where was specific evidence found, etc.)
I read that RS's lawyers are talking now about not only finding the 'real murderer' but finding the 'real weapon'.
That reminded me that I wanted to mention the varying press reports (sigh) on the location of AK's DNA on that kitchen knife found at RS's.
The reports are consistent that Meredith's DNA was found on the tip of the blade. Not consistent is the location of AK's DNA - early reports (and those that seem most accurate due to sourcing, and Italian language origin) describe AK's DNA as being found also on the blade, "near the handle".
Somehow, "near the handle" became "on the handle" in later, and English-language reports.
An early report stated that AK's DNA being on the blade *near* the handle could mean that it was deposited during cleaning the knife (cleaning the handle, holding knife on base of blade).
This would mean that we don't know whose DNA was on the handle as it was cleaned off.
"Near the handle" would be likely given the article someone kindly posted here about DNA on knives and how it can permeate 'nooks and crannies' such as would be found on the juncture between blade and handle.
When the reports say instead that AK's DNA was found "on the handle" this leads people to immediately jump to the conclusion that she wielded the knife in the attacks.
To my mind, the evidence so far leaves open what and which roles any of these three filled in this heinous tragedy.
Also - we know that this kitchen knife was FOUND at RS's - but I have not seen anything that tells us that it originally came from there. We only know that it was there after the murder, somehow.
AK and the Beatles - I hope it was not "Helter Skelter" that she liked.
about RS:
So, he did not give more info during interview Thursday because he "said all that he wanted to the judge" the other day?
Perhaps AK's messages via press had their desired effect upon him?
This story of accidentally poking MK during cooking is very odd. It is so poor that it is true (as a lie could be much better) or ... what?
It seems that RS's attorneys are leaning now towards depicting him as "impressionable and fragile" ? Perhaps the evidence that they are aware of does not look good for RS, so their hope now is to go with AK as the "driving force" in the crime who just "swept along" RS. "If I am here, it is because of my girlfriend ..."
I have not yet seen anything to persuade me of this fragile state, but we have little to nothing about RS - thanks to the adroit management of Papa S, I guess. (The store who released video was sued, reports say, there is how they manage information).
Impressionable and fragile..until he ran into Big A.
Nice defense; wonderful boy meets badmamajama
(all a's pronouned like a in bad...bad..ma'am (as in the Queen) jam'ah (to rhyme with Ma'am). This is a great phrase if it hasn't already been introduced to your language. (Deep down inside there lurks in me an English teacher.)
It is Helter Skelter at the House of Horrors, you are right, jw.
ps
ma'am a ja'am a
is gender neutral like Italian.
RS and "friends" - what have we seen of this?
There was mention of RS and "friends" from Patrick, in his post-release interview. He described seeing AK flirting with RS when RS came to LeChic with friends. Patrick said, I believe, that RS was there with his two friends, and that they all drank several rounds of pear juice and ... rum? vodka? I forget the liquor.
So, there is one report of RS out socialising at a bar with friends. There was also mention from RS of a "friend" that he spent some time with early on the evening of the murder - going to dinner or party. Whether or not that is factual ... ?
Patrick's story is all that I've seen of RS and his friends. I would liked to have seen more of his blog before it disappeared.
Everyone is doing such good work here, I'm reading along daily.
XIN, looking forward to reading Dr Forensic Psych's thoughts here.
JW commented:
"There is a recent mention of RG's DNA on/in Meredith. Also, once again, seems that this "tampone" is a *vaginal swab taken during post-mortem* and NOT a menstrual tampon. All the talk about RG jamming tampons in MK during sexual assault and excitement over menstrual blood seems to me to be inexcusably off-base and lacking in respect to MK. Haven't seen that on here in last day and hope it is over unless reports of evidence change and develops some relevance to such ideas."
First of all, it was MY comment and I make no apologies for it. it was simply a reaction to the evidence and trying to figure out what MIGHT had set off the APPARENT blood lust. I NEVER suggested that Rudy jammed a tampon up in her. My suggestion, if you were even reading what I said, was that perhaps as he was about to sexually assault Meredith, he noticed that she was bleeding. Perhaps this is when murder took precedence to sex, and the blood lust awoken.
It's not written in stone, it's a suggestion. Based on years of following these horrific crimes, reading 100s of books, and watching countless hours of documentaries.
Secondly, it was of no disrespect to Meredith. There is no way that could even be perceived as her fault. No more than it would be her fault had she willingly put herself in the position that ultimately led to her death. She didn't ask to be be murdered.
Thirdly, there was PLENTY of relevance... Someone played in her blood and wiped it on the frickin wall, for Christ sakes... What does that say about the unsubs mental state?
"Inexcusably off-base" is not even close, friend.
Frank, our host at http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
thinks that Patrick helped with the clean-up.
i'm going to give him a link to this blog. he's smart and witty with a dash of extra spice.
he mourns MK.
Luke, what I wrote re the 'tampon speculations' was not directed to you or your posts. I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I've been reading your posts and find them valuable. I do not find your speculations off base or irrelevant.
I have not yet seen anything to persuade me of this fragile state, but we have little to nothing about RS - thanks to the adroit management of Papa S, I guess. (The store who released video was sued, reports say, there is how they manage information).
jw | 12.06.07 - 7:33 pm
Since Italian persecutions are powered by rumor and wild speculation, I think the lawsuit is a crackerjack defense strategy. Their filing the suit probably nipped some rumors in the bud. Good for Pappa S. and the lawyers.
I agree with DW, Luke. It was a massive and tasteless overextrapolation based on a misunderstanding of the evidence already presented. I have been reading this (and the previous forum) all along, and it was clear well before your post that the Italian "tampone" did not refer to a menstrual tampon.
xin,
Could you please update your timeline to include when the cellphones of both RS and AK turned off? According to the URl you just posted, they both supposedly turned off at 20:40
Luke, what I wrote re the 'tampon speculations' was not directed to you or your posts. I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I've been reading your posts and find them valuable. I do not find your speculations off base or irrelevant.
jw | 12.06.07 - 8:17 pm | #
I'm sorry, jw, I clearly misunderstood you.
For what it's worth, I think the "tampon" speculations are a byproduct of the Italian/English language barrier, which just adds extra confusion to an already perplexing case. (tampon/tampone)
if both RS and Ak's cellphones were turned off at the same time, i.e. at 20:40 and AK is the female figure seen entering the premises at 20:46, that puts the two of them very close together and directly at the cottage.
I do not know why Patrick Lumumba did not answer questions today before the Magistrate. I certainly wished that he had, but one could understand, given what happened to him, why he would not speak.
Luke, I agree about the translation issue - it boggles my mind that major national media outlets (papers and broadcast) do not properly translate!
This case is just Italian-->English - who knows how things are botched when the original languages are Arabic or others w less available translators.
Anyway, as we all collectively try to construct timelines and 'known evidence', I just hoped to finally clear up that 'tampon' issue as the 4 Dec la Repubblica seemed pretty unambiguous.
Cheers
((OT: whatever happened to those days of war protest?)) xin | 12.06.07 - 6:33 pm.
Mostly, NO DRAFT. The looming possibility of death tends to concentrate one's mind. {I'm thinking I'm paraphrasing Mark Twain but likely its someone else.} Remove the motivation and even though you still have to register, where's the reality of it. My draft number was like 327. I haven't had an anxiety disappear so fast without having to take a pill. A good friend's was low. He went the refusal route until a friendly psych doc's note got him at least to a court-ordered orderly's job instead of prosecuted by Justice. My second wife's 1st husband [got that? it gets more confusing] was a high grades Stanford '71 already married, so did it for him. Local draft boards were inconsistent.
[Wiscon/Minn type girl {no Cali hippie fer shure!} and I were talking out by the line of cars in front of my frat house at our small college. She's semi-pissed that the semi-boyfriend is now NOT going into the army. As she puts it "And I gave it up to him because I thought he was going off." I'm not sure he ever did have to go. But they weren't dating much longer after that.]
..on the two of them being close to the house of horrors when the cells turned off...
this is very suspicious behavior. and it may indicate that the two of them planned to enter the HOH separately. If this is the case, and it can be confirmed later...this is bad,bad,bad for the fragile boy. Implies pre-meditated CRIME if not murder.
so Rudy is in little room sitting in the chair with the light shining in his face, surrounded by cops, as we type. maybe we have a break tomorrow.
((yes RM on the guillotine of the draft numbers...the rand corporation thought that up...but when i see those pix of the kids on tv...i see sons.))
(thanks bpcl, got it)
Ah, xin if it was only Chicago under Daley or say even an Indiana county prosecutor today (they are blood thirsty--keep using the threat of death sentence but never actually go through; still threat works)--Rafe would have cracked ages ago, and Rudy would have stuff done know. There's a lot to say the American let's make a deal approach, though overcharging on misdemeanors is getting ridiculous.
so, RS said he wanted to 'clarify' things so requested interview. then at interview said that he had already said all he wanted to say to the judge at the (release) hearing.
what did he say at this hearing? i don't recall reading anything about what he said there. anyone know?
if both RS and Ak's cellphones were turned off at the same time, i.e. at 20:40 and AK is the female figure seen entering the premises at 20:46, that puts the two of them very close together and directly at the cottage.
bpcl | 12.06.07 - 8:29 pm | #
In that case, why isn't Raffaele caught on camera accompanying Amanda?
Now that he's been extradited, I think it will be interesting to see if Rudy's defense:
1) engineers a plea acknowledging Rudy's participation, and Rudy implicates Amanda and Raffaele in order to lighten his sentence
2) Rudy identifies the Italian man he says killed Meredith, and it's Raffaele, but he says nothing of Amanda
3) Rudy claims that Raffaele is not the man he saw
An excerpt from today's *Il Messagero*, about explanations needed from RG. Specifically [with some small adjustments]:
http://tinyurl.com/2ucs3a
I threw this idea out here a while back, but as this story has unfolded, I’m even more convinced that very quickly after the murder, RS and AK decided that Rudy would be the fall guy. They worked very hard on the cleanup in an effort to remove all evidence of everyone except him.
If you think about how AK has describes her foggy memory, she vacillates between, "I was there", and "I wasn’t there". If, after all the forensic evidence is in, there is nothing to absolutely tie AK to the scene, her memory can clear and she can remember with certainly that she was not there at all that evening. Rudy on the other hand…well we know he was there. There’s DNA to prove it.
If on the other hand, some overlooked piece of evidence surfaces, something that proves she was in the house that night, her memory can clear and she can tell the world, "why yes. I remember now. I was there after all. I was in the kitchen, while Rudy took M into her room. I heard M’s screams and covered my ears." And for good measure, she can add—"that must be why I thought of Patrick! I remember a black man committing the murder." Once again, Rudy takes the rap because after all, she had nothing to do with the actual crime. She was in the kitchen, and he is the black man.
Naming Patrick also bought some time for the RS and AK to see what would turn up in the way of evidence against them. Despite the fact that they moved M’s body, possibly undressing her, they left Rudy’s hair in her fist. They knew, that at least initially, finding a black man’s hair would help convince the police that Patrick was the murderer. Of course, RS and AK knew, too, that eventually DNA testing would identify Rudy (why else yell to everyone about the s**t in the toilet?
Sorry for the long post--Promise Ill keep them short from now on...
BD,
That is the 64 dollar question and a good one at that. It is the only thing that keeps me from tying both RS and RG directly to the cottage even though RG has already admitted that he was at the cottage the night of the murder.
The only plausible explanation I can give you, without living in Perugia is the following. RS lived on Via Giuseppe Garibaldi. RG lived on a street or two just behind RS on via Canerino. Perhaps the access to the cottage from these two places does not require one to pass by the CCTV monitoring the garage.
Secondly on an on a interesting note, the cell phones of Meredith and Filomina were found on Via Andrea de Purugia, just a stones throw away from the home of RG.
BD,
Furthermore, RG said he arrived at 20:38, and as of this moment, we do not know by what path. Amanda is seen supposedly by CCTV arriving alone at 20:46 pm or 6 minutes after her cell phone is turned off. A possibility is that they both agreed to meet at the cottage, turned off their cell phones at 20:40 and arrived by separate paths. The same could be said of RG as well.
Another try, with excerpt..from today's *Il Messagero*, about explanations needed from RG. Specifically [with some small adjustments]:
...when [he] first claims to have seen only from behind and not being able to recognize and then when he says that they [attacked him] with a knife, held with the left hand, tried to [injure]. So facing him.
The other point of the story that is not at all clear [is] when Rudy says [that when he left] the bathroom he heard the cries of Mez and [at the] same time, the killer "in front of the door" and the [English student] lying on floor...
http://tinyurl.com/2ucs3a
..the cell phones of Meredith and Filomina were found on Via Andrea de Purugia, just a stones throw away from the home of RG...bcpl
Intersting indeed. I missed that one belonged to Filomena, location near RS's detail. Agree that RS evaded the cammy and met AK so they were not seen together.
Premeditation indicator.
{is it ok to say RG sounds like he's full of shit again?}
NO.
NO, OK?
DON'T go there.
a2 commented:
I threw this idea out here a while back, but as this story has unfolded, I’m even more convinced that very quickly after the murder, RS and AK decided that Rudy would be the fall guy. They worked very hard on the cleanup in an effort to remove all evidence of everyone except him.
a2,
I think you are giving these two a little too much credit. They strike me as a lot of things, but criminal masterminds isn't on the list.
I honestly believe that if Rudy was intended to be the "fall guy," his name would have been brought up by now. I also don't think Amanda would blame Patrick if Rudy was being set to take the fall.
Also, they didn't too well covering their own tracks as it is....
Xin,
Yes indeed; a premeditation factor. In my opinion, if RS is involved in the murder, then premeditation is in play;
We need your timeline because it is our point of reference. Thank you for taking care of it and displaying it from time to time.
xin,
In my opinion, I think that RG is the only one of the three who has come close to telling the truth about this sordid mess. I am really hoping that he will honestly answer questions posed to him by the Judge on this case.
He admitted he was there. He said he was in the bathroom which is true. He said he tried to place a towel at the neck of Meredith. The Police have found a bloody towel. He said that Meredith complained about AK stealing her money. The money for her rent has never been found.
Of the three, RG has admitted a lot more for us to deal with here and for that I am grateful.
Why was Rudy the only one who fled?
Thanks for your thought, Luke. I agree that they didn't do to well covering their tracks...And I guess I dont see this idea as requiring masterminds. Rudy ran out of the house and RS and AK began the clean up. An attempt was made to clean up any evidence that pointed to them. They left all evidence that pointed to Rudy--the shit in the toilet being the most obvious.
Naming Patrick may have been spur of the moment for AK, but i think she knew it was a good choice because, like Rudy. he is black and would fit the initial profile. Why else does she keep asking "Why do i see Patrick in my memory"
I dont think she bargained to be painted as cunning, crafty and amoral. I think she figured that it would be a white U.S. student's word against a black drug pushers word.
Having said that, you could be right. I may be way off, but it will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
well, BD, no. 1 is what the ILE is hoping for because THAT is what will tie up all the main pieces of evidence and they can ignore the outliers, such as the stilleto heel print & the odd DNA (Mr & Ms CS in the white car)--but the defense won't ignore that at all. no. 2 will befuddle all of us but would get him a job at Macy's when/if he ever gets out & could get a visa to the USA (but conviction will bar him). And as for no. 3, well if he can't actually name or ID someone AND doesn't put Amanda or Rafe at the SOTC, then HE takes the full fall for the murder. Lawyers won't let that happen. And ILE will have a hard time making anything beyond crime scene interference stick against the "MoonSun Above Mtns".
New timeline draft. Omitted AndyK's theory to keep it simple. I do not have sources figured for each time, and have included overlapping, differing accounts to consider.
Tweaks, corrections invited.
November 1, 2007
1:00 PM AK & MK at their apartment
3-4:00 MK left
5:00 AK, RS went to his apartment (per AK)
6:00 AK, RS left her apartment (per Rafe)
“He was with AK until 1800 when they had both left RS apartment to go into the centre, around 2030 to 2100”
RS went home, smoked; had dinner
8:30 AK text message from PL
8:38 pm (acc to RG) rg arrives
8:43 AK? seen on CCTV entering her house
8:46 (acc to RG) Meredith arrives eight minutes after he arrives
8:50 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir fry them.
8:40 AK and RS cell phones turned off at 20:40
8:30 – 9 (AK “left him [RS], saying to him that she would go to Le Chic, meet friends while he returned to his house”)
“… left the house telling Sollecito that she was going to work, [but she], she was at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana.”
9:00 PM [[“It was [about] this time that either RS or AK turned off their mobile phones, which [were on] again the following morning.”
“All three [includes PL] suspects have a gap in cell phone use for two hours around the time MK was raped and killed, according to the judge's order. PL changed his cell phone number the day after the murder.”]]
9 AK claimed to meet PL at B-Ball courts and [return] to her house. According to the judges, between 21.10 and 5.32 of the night of the crime "is not any human interaction. RS
9 MK leaves friend’s house to return home
9 The five have snack: garlic mushrooms and mozarella cheese.
9.15 MK arrives, and tastes the mushrooms.
10:30 PM “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost knocked over by a black man running away from scene” (She is part of the mystery couple/perhaps DNA, heel print found in MKs room)
11:00 PM RSs father called, no answer
11-1 AM RS claims he’s on Internet at his home
1 AM AK at RS’s apt
5:32 AM Internet activity noted at RS’s computer
Pinecone,
We do not know whether or not RG was the only one who fled. It was stated by someone on the street that a man of NA descent flew by at 22:30 almost knocking her partner down. Let's assume that it was indeed RG. His lawyer has said that RG was confused and not sure what to do. If we take his statement "the assailant said you are black, nobody is going to believe you" face value, then that is more than enough reason for him to flee while the other(s) stayed.
I pose the following question to you which you have never answered. Who did the clean up in the cottage? AK's room was so cleaned up, not a single finger print was found. Who brought contaminated crime scene evidence to the downstairs flat? AK was the only person who had the key. Who bleached up the house in general. It had to be done by the other co-conspirators. And just because RG fled the scene, does not make him the only guilty party involved.
Note: I moved last two items from above to next day calendar:
November 2, 2007
1 AM AK at RS’s apt
5:32 AM Internet activity noted at RS’s computer
8:30 AM Bleach receipt (this day?)
9:15 Bleach receipt (this day)
10:00 (per RS) Woke up at RS’s in morning
10:30 (per RS) AK returns to her house to wash; took empty plastic bag
11 (per AK) she was back at her house
11:30 (per RS) AK back at RS’s house; worried—door open
Back to AK’s together. AK opens door w/keys; went in together. Blood in bathroom.
? – AK and RS buy newspaper (?)
12:35 PM postal police arrive; hear washing machine cycling off. RS talking to his sister when cops arrive
12:54 RS calls police
1:00 AK/MK housemate Romanelli arrived
I dont think she bargained to be painted as cunning, crafty and amoral. I think she figured that it would be a white U.S. student's word against a black drug pushers word.
a2 | 12.06.07 - 10:54 pm
****
Yeah, that's exactly what Rudy would like everyone to think. He's been playing the race card since his first statement about the "real killer" threatening to blame him. He also degraded the victim by saying she felt affectionate towards him, claiming she whispered initials to him after her throat was ripped open. He had a couple of weeks to read all the crap in the papers and piece together his fable. He knows there was a bloody towel at the scene. He used it to wipe his own wound. I'm sure some of Meredith's blood is on it, but not because he was trying to help her. He'd just killed her.
Where we are summary:
1) Pincecone Theory --> Rudy did it by himself.
2) Luke-sometimes Theory --> Rudy & Amanda did it re drugs & anger; Rafe got suckered in on clean-up by Amanda.
3) Coyotewaits --> Rudy & Amanda & Rafe in on it as extreme violence/sex thing linked to drugs; absolutely premeditated by Amanda but Rudy stepped up to the plate [American baseball lingo]. Rafe may be voyeur.
4) Rob's Black Magic Woman Theory --> which I "see" thusly, as Rob has never logically articulated it, so if this isn't it, say so, Rob.
Interp for no. 4. Inspired by seeing Meredith in her vampire goo for H'ween, & the spirits conjured up by that night fueled by drugs & Rudy's ability to invite Mr & Ms CS to make it 5 plus the Sacrifice, which is the 5 points of the Pentagram and Meredith as the Center and her body/blood the gateway. Amanda brings knife and mushrooms, Rafe's trailing behind, Rudy's already there. They expect Meredith to be there but she's not. Mr & Ms CS arrive just after Meredith does: note that there are NO reported CCTV images of Meredith returning--now too dark and/or she didn't walk that way (more likely).
The desired result of this ersatz Coven was a Summoning. Of...?
Having consumed some [sacred] mushrooms as the 1st step, M as victim is to be as step 2 disrobed, step 3 marked with knife cuts all over in symbolic patterns, step 4 assaulted sexually in between or by all the men at the end, before step 5 being sacrificed by strangulation as were the ancient Peruvian mountain sacrifices that keep being found & as the Bog People sacrifices of No. Europe were, step 6 being that her heart was to be cut out. With Meredith's refusal to SUBMIT, death came quicker with the bungling wrong cut at the neck by Amanda & so strangulation was resorted to as it appeared it was taking too long for her to bleed to death. The group was out in the hall trying to decide what to do (Mr & Ms CS walk out first as hey you botched it, bad magic here, we're gone) and Rudy hits the john & decides there yep he's gone too like NOW and forgets to flush, leaving Amanda & Rafe to stage & clean up. Or the CSes did the staging while A & R cleaned. Rudy has still split by 10:30 -- bad juju anyway you look at it.
To get this theory more fully, you'd need to do some heavy skimming through Robert Graves's THE WHITE GODDESS.
This race card I think was played by AK when she thought of credibility of her word against his. Even if he was white, he's still a petty criminal with a record.
But I agree that Rudy's version is completely false. One of the guys from downstairs remembers AK bringing Rudy home before. He said that Rudy was so stoned that he passed out on the toilet (what is it w/toilets & this guy?). Rudy would've been one of AK's friends that MK despised. The same guy from downstairs said that when Rudy was at the house in the past it was clear that he was attracted to both AK and MK...
Pinecone,
Let's assume you are correct in your statements about RG. Why then would someone come into the cottage and do a masterful job of cleaning up the crime scene. How did contaminated evidence find its way to the downstairs flat?
Pinecone,
Why haven't the Police said that they have found the blood of RG on the towel if he wiped his wound? The only thing that the Police have said to this point, is that a bloody finger print of RG has been found on the pillow.
Pinecone, I also wonder why RS when he was first jailed made that statement, "If we are here, it is because of Amanda above all."
If he was innocent and unjustly imprisoned, why would he blame Amanda? It implies some kind of participation for both of them, and it implies that she was the most responsible.
a2: "(what is it w/toilets & this guy?).
Possibly he cuts his coke with too much baby laxative.
seattleite: Possibly he cuts his coke with too much baby laxative.
Hahahahaa! Well, it serves him right!
Pinecone,
One final question if you please. If RG killed Meredith alone, why is it that the Police are holding both RS and AK? Why are their lawyers not screaming from the tops of their lungs about the innocence of their clients. Is Italy a Police state where they just imprison people because of their associations with people they know?
Are the Police so terribly off base here that they are wrongly accusing two people for a crime they did not commit; even though both of these two people have consistently lied about their whereabouts on the night of the murder.
Are the thousand posts submitted here so off base and so completely wrong about RS and AK and their culpability? I just fail to see how you can say the RG is without a doubt the 'true killer.' Who would have allowed themselves to become part of this crime for an admitted drug pusher who had just murdered someone by cleaning up his mess? Who would have spent the time to go down to RS's afterwards and say, "Can we clean up your flat RS, because, well someone you know was murdered and we do not wish for you to become a suspect."
Why then would someone come into the cottage and do a masterful job of cleaning up the crime scene. How did contaminated evidence find its way to the downstairs flat?
bpcl | 12.06.07 - 11:16 pm
My notion of the crime scene includes Meredith's bedroom, down the hallway a short distance, and including the bathroom where Rudy was listening to his iPod. None of that area was cleaned.
There's very little information about the evidence in the other apartment, but I suspect it's Rudy's blood from his tending to his wound. I think the police are holding this ace in the hole to catch Rudy off guard when he starts playing the race card during questioning.
If this was a planned event, how did Rudy get injured?
a2: "(what is it w/toilets & this guy?).
Possibly he cuts his coke with too much baby laxative.
seattleite | 12.06.07 - 11:29 pm | #
yup. stepped on, if i recall from the old days.
seattlelite: hope you are still in good cheer. sounds like you guys got hammered.
NEXT: mold, (i lived on a tropical island for many years)landslides.
stay safe.
My notion of the crime scene includes Meredith's bedroom, down the hallway a short distance, and including the bathroom where Rudy was listening to his iPod. None of that area was cleaned.
Pinecone
But most of the house was cleaned to the extent that there were none of AK's fingerprints, save one on a mug. That had to have been the result of some major effort, and I doubt that the effort was that of Rudy. If Rudy was going to clean up, I think MK's room would have been the room he chose.
Plus, weren't there some passers-by at like 2 am. Didn't they hear loud arguing coming from the house? He was long gone by then.
Oooh. Xin, the passers-by at 2 am...Is that worth including in the timeline?
Pinecone,
Good you answered. The only fault I find with your argument is that we here try not to speculate on evidence the Police may or may not released. The Police have never stated that the blood found in the downstairs flat is RG's.
I do not have the answer yet on how RG got injured. We should find out if that is true in the following days. I simply will not speculate on something that has not been revealed to the public.
And I do not know whether or not the murder of Meredith was a planned event or not. In my opinion, it was either item 2 on RobertM's list, or a lighter version of item 3 on the list.
a2: yes. we don't want to lose track of the detail...i think so, thanks.
****
Today, LaStampa runs a 6-shot photo-gallery of Rudy's arrival. At least he looks worried.
http://tinyurl.com/3cqf6n
The only fault I find with your argument is that we here try not to speculate on evidence the Police may or may not released.
bpcl | 12.06.07 - 11:43 pm |
No offense, bpcl, 99 percent of the comments here are speculation on rumors, false info, and badly translated documents alleged to have been written by the accused. Eveyone's entitled to his own opinion, but everyone's not entitled to his own facts, as someone smart said.
xin,
Great pictures of RG. That is what is nice about this place. If you want to get up to date information, you can get it here. To me, he looks like a man going off to the gallows. I sure hope that he will tell the truth as he saw it that evil night.
I'm going to start numbering the revision drafts. (Nov 1, also will be labeled rev.1)
rev.1. November 2, 2007 TImeline Draft
November 2, 2007
1 AM AK at RS’s apt
2 AM Passers-by report loud voices from AK/MK home
5:32 AM Internet activity noted at RS’s computer
8:30 AM Bleach receipt (this day?)
9:15 Bleach receipt (this day)
10:00 (per RS) Woke up at RS’s in morning
10:30 (per RS) AK returns to her house to wash; took empty plastic bag
11 (per AK) she was back at her house
11:30 (per RS) AK back at RS’s house; worried—door open
Back to AK’s together. AK opens door w/keys; went in together. Blood in bathroom.
? – AK and RS buy newspaper (?)
12:35 PM postal police arrive; hear washing machine cycling off. RS talking to his sister when cops arrive
12:54 RS calls police
1:00 AK/MK housemate Romanelli arrived
Thanks Xin. Emerald City stands. Yes, these storms kill people (landslides, trees falling, floods and of course the hikers, snowboarders: always losing a bunch of them in the Cascades). Outside of Seattle the western part of Washington is Alaska South. Sorry to interrupt really good posts but when someone says glad you didn't get killed, I think it merits a sincere reply.
Pinecone,
Good, we are in sync then. And hopefully in the days ahead, we will learn more from this human being called RG. He is allowed to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise just like the other suspects in this case. I do not hold him up on a pedestal any more than I would RS and AK.
You might have more experience than I concerning these types of situations. When I am dealing with another human being, I look to hear the honest truth the way they see it. A person's word, is their honor; it is all they/we have. I have learned that it is better to tell the truth then to do otherwise.
You must admit, that neither RS nor AK have done that up to this moment with any kind of clarity, given the gravity of the circumstances; a young girl's life was extinguished for what?
Perhaps we will hear differently from RG in the days ahead. Perhaps you are right that he is the sole killer of Meredith. I believe the body of evidence says otherwise.
From my perspective, I am just looking for justice for Meredith, her family and for the ones who loved her. If I trace the facts and discern from my own set of experiences that a person is lying, then I must admit, I suspect that something is afoot. I find that in both RS and AK based on their statements to the Police. We shall both see what lies in the days ahead for RG.
COOL: 30 secondsof Rudy's arrival at Leonardo, and then his departure in a van. Huge scene.
Go here: http://www.corriere.it/
scroll down to Rudy, click to *video*
get to linked page,
see 5-shot photo panel, click *video* bug, it's the fifth pull-shot in the panel.
Perhaps we will hear differently from RG in the days ahead. Perhaps you are right that he is the sole killer of Meredith. I believe the body of evidence says otherwise.
bpcl | 12.07.07 - 12:01 am |
The body of evidence that really matters was discovered at Meredith's autopsy. She had Rudy's hairs in her hand and his DNA within her body. Nothing RG says can lessen the impact of the known evidence against him.
lawyer for one of the suspects being held in the murder of British exchange student Meredith Kercher is claiming police have failed to find the murder weapon, The Daily Telegraph reported.
"There has not been a thorough search of the area around the flat, especially in undergrowth beneath the building and this is vital," said Marco Brusco, the lawyer for Raffaele Sollecito. "I appeal with the utmost urgency to the police that an extensive search is made for the murder weapon that was used to kill poor Meredith."
I have one last question before i call it a night. Why are RS's attorneys insisting that police look in the "undergrowth beneath the building"?
I have to believe that every inch of the house and yard have been scoured for evidence. Plus, if RS's defense team believes that Rudy is the murderer, then he could've disposed of the weapon anywhere between Perugia and Germany.
Just struck me as odd.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,315494,00.html
Thanks for the good links, Xin.
Pinecone,
I beg to differ. The Police have never stated publicly that the hairs found in Meredith's hands were hair strands from RG; nor have they definitively stated that they found DNA in her body from the same person. That evidence has not been presented to the public. You must know or be aware of, or privy to information that has not been revealed to us. And even if this is so, why are they still holding onto both RS and AK and trying to link them both to the cottage. For what purpose does it serve them? Can you please answer that?
There has been a lot of speculation as to the origin of the murders knife found at Rafflaele's appt. The one with all the DNA. And if was Rafflaele's knife, it shows premeditated murder.
RS always carried around a flick knife. I wonder if Amanda carried around a knife, a big knife, in her purse for protection. It would make a lot of sense walking in some of those areas. I'd want my girlfriend to be able to protect herself. So I don't necessarily think the presence of that knife indicates anything sinister beforehand. And her DNA would be on there because she handled it the most, Meredith's DNA also was on the pointed side.
Just speculation.
a2,
RS's lawyers should spend their time establishing a proper alibi for their client. What does the murder weapon have to do with their client. RS has not been charged with any crime yet. He is being held in prison precisely because he does not have an alibi and he has consistently lied to the Police on all of their questioning.
I have one last question before i call it a night. Why are RS's attorneys insisting that police look in the "undergrowth beneath the building"?a2 | 12.07.07 - 12:15 am
I can't quote the source, but I read in an early report that police had not located some pieces of glass from the broken window. This was during the time they were saying the weapon could have been a shard of glass.
Maybe those pieces of glass have not yet been found.
What??? Sollecito's DNA on the knife, too? Help! Yet another error, or did I miss this major development?
From the Fox news link a2 just provided us :
"... Police did find a kitchen knife with the 21-year-old's DNA, as well as traces of the DNA from Sollecito and Knox, The Daily Telegraph reported..."
**
And a2 - I found that "search the underbrush for the real weapon" from RS's attorneys to be odd, also.
But, could be an attempt to weaken the strength of the fact that the kitchen knife w DNA was found at RS's house. The public includes, after all, potential jurors.
Pinecone: yes, RS's legal team has been working hard, I agree (re suing the store who released shopping video).
bcpl says above that "It was stated by someone on the street that a man of NA descent flew by at 22:30 almost knocking her partner down". This is yet another example of the confusion on this thread about what has been reported.
1. RG is *not* North African. Have a look at a map and see where Cote d'Ivoire actually is. Nor is he of remotely North African appearance (i.e. from the Maghreb: Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.).
2. This was apparently reported by Alessandra Formica, who said "her partner was almost knocked over by a black man running away from the scene at around 10.30pm" http://tinyurl.com/25dw2f
So, that's a black man, like RG, not someone of North African appearance.
Do Italian police not use tracking dogs? I'd think a good hound could have led them from the murder house to the place the cell phones were found and beyond that. Of course it's too late for that, but they might still be able to scent out a bloody weapon.
HELLO: FoxNews? They need to be checked carefully, but even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
xin: are you talking about "fair and accurate" Fox? LOL i'm lookin' for the broken clock news network now, it'll be an upgrade.
Why then would someone come into the cottage and do a masterful job of cleaning up the crime scene?
bpcl | 12.06.07 - 11:16 pm
This doesn't sound like a masterful cleaning job to me. Over 120 fingerprints, 80 from unknown persons.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1770
Of 120 useful fingerprints and other samples, 40 belonged to flatmates or regular visitors to the house, while the remaining 80 came from "unknown individuals". None belonged to Lumumba.
From Fox News to the Daily Mail ...
but this is very strange - Meredith's boyfriend, whom she met through AK, knew Patrick and RS ?
http://tinyurl.com/ypmz2h
"...Mr Silenzi, who plays guitar in a rock and punk band, was friends with both Lumumba and Sollecito.
He said Knox often came over to visit him, to listen to music and to play the guitar as she was a Beatles fan and wanted to "learn to play properly."
He said that after a few music lessons, she brought flatmate Miss Kercher over too..."
Hi all. I have been following this story from the beginning, but only found this comment thread today. It's great, informative and civilized.
I have been convinced of Rudy's central role in the murder. This due to his flight, DNA on Meredith, the bloody thumbprint, that he admits (maybe) sex with her, implying rape (to me). Oh, also the unexplained phone contact between he and AK before and after the murder. But I have to say that the feeling I get after seeing his photos at fiumicino, is that he's secondary. I don't think he killed her. I do think someone told him that he would take the blame because he's black, as he says. But that person may not have been a stranger to him. I am feeling now that it could have been AK or RS.
I just had such a strong feeling while looking at his photos and wanted to share.
I think someone on here already suggested that Rudy could have been set up. I didn't see it as probable then, but now I'm not so sure.
Since I have been away for over two weeks and the plot thickens with RHG's extradition to Perugia for questioning later today, here is a restatement of my crime theory. I have followed some of the news and most of this new set of comments thread, seeing some excellent posts and some rather irrelevant or perhaps just satirical posts.
What I still see from the evidence most all agree upon here, the excellent time lines developed and the drawings, graphs/maps presented and from the statements, writings and behavior of the three antagonists RS, AK, RHG and other third parties involved remains:
AK and RS plotted to attack MK [with high probability also to murder her and planned to 'use' Rudy as an third player by promising him some real nice sexual play with MK. (They knew MK couldn't stand RHG, that RHG fancied MK, and that force upon MK would be needed to play the game. They just did not let Rudy know just how far the game would possibly go for them).
As long as MK was alive and being restrained (by RS & AK or by RS & RHG) RHG was getting some of his pleasure. However, during the scene either MK is more seriously attacked (breath play, strangulation, knifed or all three) while RHG is in the room getting his kicks or even out of the room relieving himself.
Suddenly RHG is going crazy in a "wtf" manner and begins to panic. RS calmly tells him to do as he is told or he will be blamed for all of this and no one will believe him if he tells on them (RS & AK). RHG is told to get out of there, take and dump the cell phones, after they make the 22:15 call on MK's cell phone, clean himself up and leave Perugia for a few months and maybe is given some money, (MK's). That they (RS & AK) will clean things up and make it look like someone broke in.
And that is just what they all did. RHG disappeared, RS & AK cleaned up as best they knew how. Not only did they clean up as best they could (not being completely satisfied of the job they did during the tiring night they fully planned to return in the morning knowing they had time to finish and perfect the cleanup. (Except...they didn't because the cell phones were found).
When the pressure was on AK the night/morning 05/06 Nov she gave up PL, it was a calculated diversion to get ILE to focus other than on RHG or RS for a few days thinking they would not be detained and jailed on the 09 Nov (even though it meant confessing she "must" have been there, but later knowing she would redact her statement).
The only alternative I have considered is that it was not meant to be murder 1 but did get out of hand and became murder 2. Albeit, only because there was a angry confrontation and the time line seems so very short (~21:15 to ~21:50 to have some mushrooms, some suggestive play, some slow restraint and encouragement of MK) and MK's death occurred in that constrained time boundry.
But in either alternative it was planned in one form or another, including their post crime statements, writings and behavior. What appears to us persons here to be RS and AK's bizarre and guilty appearing behavior (socio-pathological, DID, NPD, absent of any remorseful feelings as friends of the victim, getting on with their future lives) is just "their way" of being and appearing, to the world including their lawyers and parents, quite innocent.
They certainly never hoped to have give RHG up but were smart enough to make sure he was all over the crime site if in fact it came down to that. He was from the start their fall back guy. That is reason they have never given him up or mentioned him. Had they, it would have implicated themselves in some way, other than AK possibly testifying against RHG in a trial saying she always thought he might attack MK in some way the way he 'talked' about her.
And do not forget AK was a charmer and charismatic with men in a sexually seductive way. Both with RHG (most beautiful black man) and RS (makes me feel safe, loved) she manipulated their feeling for her. (And in just two weeks with RS?) AK and RS were a hellish event waiting to happen and once they added RHG to the mix there was no preventing this gruesome tragedy. As Robert M and others pointed out these persons were just 20, 21 and 24 and we know today from neuroscience and evolutionary psychology that the cerebral cortex in not fully developed even at in a person’s twenties but that their raging hormones, sex drive and other emotional neurological and motor pathways are, especially in the urges from the amygdala, pons, and medulla oblongata.
Tod