oooh, first comment! interesting point steve, about the similarities. hopefully the truth will come out alot sooner with amanda knox than it has for the holloway family.
as young woman who has travelled overseas i think its easy to take risks and do things you wouldnt normally do - away from your family and friends and familiar surroundings the normal rules dont apply. natalee would have felt safe and been on an adventure in aruba....and someone with amanda's personality could get out of control without the usual checks and balances i guess.
i dont know - i wouldnt walk around my own neighbourhood in the dark on my own....but i walked around london in the dark and didnt really take in that the risks are the same.
Lizzy, I first went to New York City when I was 16. I went from being a kid who was petrified of driving on the Interstates around Nashville, TN to hailing cabs during rush hour in front of Bloomingdale's. Didn't think about it. The excitement and adrenaline overrode so many of my internal cautions it wasn't even funny. A lot of kids who seemed kind of repressed at home (a girl I dated both in high school and college, Jeanie, went on that trip, and she was the perfect example of this) flipped for 4 brief days in NYC, wearing different clothes, drinking, you name it. A month later we were back in Nashville, I was back to being phobic about the interstate, and Jeanie was back to wearing her good Baptist cross necklace and demure blouses that buttoned up to her chin.
Weird side of human nature, ain't it?
There is something about this girl "Foxy Knoxy" that I just cannot stand. Of course, "weirdness", vanity, and rampant narcissism doesn't always mean murderer...
I'm pretty sure there's nothing the European media would love more than a "cute" American girl being this vile. Disgusting.
I guess I am the odd ball then. They ALL fascinate me! Human interest stories and I'm there.
LOL, Steve, you acted on instinct. When you and I (we are the same age) were 16, NYC was at its worst. Acting naive could and probably would have got you hurt.
Humans are animals after all, and instinct kicks in.
I am happy for you....for your new writing spot at Radar...however I am posting my thoughts on Knox here because I am a true Steve fan and this is home to me.
I find the release and interview of Patrick Lumumba to be VERY ENLIGHTENING into what happened when, where, why, and how. He showed me a bit more into the character of Amanda.
Now more than ever, I am seeing a young woman that was dominated by hate and jealousy mostly (if not covertly) aimed at women and how other women could make her feel threatened.
I sincerely wish Patrick the BEST and am really ground to a halt by his personal testament of how he was treated in this case in relation to evidence ILE had.
Natalee and Amanda. Both young (same age), pretty, abroad (away from home), both perhaps confident and experimenting and (maybe a bit) naive about the situations that they put themselves into. Sounds like every teen/young adult female I can think of...In North America and Europe alike. I see nothing else in common between these two women.
Have I missed something here?
Differences? One is a victim and is (likely) dead. The other is being held as a suspect and might have criminal involvement (likely) in the death of another.
Maybe the two shared something in common in how they got to their situations but their circumstances lead one to conclude that there are far more differences between them than similarities.
"(likely)" is the only similarity I can see between the two.
Judging from movies, Americans liked the idea of wicked women, femme fatales, from around 1944 until around 1952. Think of Jane Greer in "Out of the Past."
Before complaining about the European press' glee, think of the s**tstorm our media would drum up if this occurred here, at the hands of an exchange student (read "immigrant").
I'm an avid reader of the Perugia story here on Steve's blog. My condolences go to Meredith's family though I doubt there is any consolation to them now.
Thought I'd add a few lines of comments myself.
I spent half a year in Sweden as an exchange student back in 2002 when I was 21. One sure becomes a bit relaxed away from home in a foreign country. I was drinking more often and partying a lot more than in my normal surroundings. No drugs, but if I'd had a real chance to try that, maybe I would have done it... I engaged in a (sexual) relationship with a man (of different colour) I wouldn't dare date in my own country (no racism here, we were just too different). I remember shocking my dorm mates sometimes 
I FELT DIFFERENT.
That was some way of exploring myself. At the same time I knew I could allow myself to experiment with "being different" because I'd leave as soon as the study programme finished and could be "back to normal" in my own home.
I somehow feel connected to Amanda in that way... I imagine she might have felt some of that, but overstepped the line (assuming she had a part in that cruel murder).
I'd never turn to anything criminal, harming other people etc. I wonder if that has to do with some inner wrong, a lot of insecurity and evil personality... Or maybe... just a lot of bad luck, an unhappy coincidence of such circumstances as too much alcohol, drugs, and getting too excited on being "on the loose"...
You know that 1/2 year has taught me a lot about myself. I've become settled down, more secure inside myself and I remember my time in Sweden with an inner smile. I guess Amanda won't... And in this way, I'm sorry for her.
...I too don't see anything in common between natalie and amamda - I see natalie and jonbenet as having more in common - both had mothers who pushed their kids to be/do what mother wanted for their own personal reasons - now JB and natalie are both gone - beth and patsy were reliving their lives thru their daughters -
Steve, when I clicked on "recommend it" on Radar, it immediately clicked me off the internet. I went back on and read another article/different author clicked "recommend it" and the same thing happened again. Weird.
Another thing that is weird is this entire case, the DNA on the knife could be from both girls touching it. If it was the murder weapon wouldn't they clean it better if they took it to the boyfriend's home? I didn't hear that there was blood on the knife, just DNA. Amanda is a nasty girl but I'm wondering if she and her boyfriend are not guilty of murder.I think she was drugged out and told the police whatever they wanted to hear, or whatever she thought she "dreamed". I'm still waiting for the entire story to unfold. Now they are looking for another couple because of DNA found at the scene. Sounds like this place was a party house so there might be lot's of unrelated DNA. I think the guy who took the dump in the toilet and left his DNA on Meredith and then danced at the disco is the only killer.
@ Iflight
You said: 'I knew I could allow myself to experiment with "being different" because I'd leave as soon as the study programme finished and could be "back to normal" in my own home.'
Perfectly described! This is exactly why that half-year or year or maybe even two years abroad are good for most people. The combination of license and the lack of people with preconceived notions about who one is, is liberating and increases self-knowledge no end.
I think some of you who are saying you see nothing in common are missing my overall point, but that's ok. As the writer it's my responsibility to make that point clear, and if I didn't do that for some people I can live with it.
Colette -- some sort of javascript implements when you click that recommend it link. I did it for a different author's article and had no problems and I noticed that the clicks on my update post had gone up, too. Could there be problem in your browser with javascript? We've had a problem with Firefox especially here at my home, even though we all love the browser otherwise. It doesn't seem to like javascript very much.
Also, only click once on any article you like there. No need to click more. I think they have an IP identifier script that disallows multiple clicks from one source -- I had a similar script on an older blog where I briefly implemented a similar system.
I can promise those who fear Amanda Fox will be chewed up and spat out in the uK? European press that all we are interested in is what really happened to Meredith. I have read that Meredith was beginning to get fed up with all the different boyfriends Amanda was bringing home and wanted to talk to her about it. That's the worst I've read. However spare a thought for the McCann's - in three papers today I saw they'd sold Madeleine into slavery themselves, were the killers and a book was being written to prove this and and yet another libellous remark about their DNA and Madeleine's having been found mixed "somewhere" (really, that accurate!) and this is seven months on from Madedeine's disappearance...
What was the history of that 'party' house and how many in Perugia knew it as such even before Amanda went to live there?
does anyone think it's possible that r did it all alone, a showed up while he was, he threatened her, she gets r and they do the cleanup, maybe they planned on doing some cleanup in m's room, but were sidetracked when the police showed up? long shot, but who knows at this point?
sorry that was confusing, i meant r alone, as in rudy, and a getting r as in raff
I just read in an italian paper, that they foung chewed gum on the nightstand next to MK bed - they are going to check out who it belongs to.
I read contradictory accounts of the blood stain found in the bathroom - i read that it was AK fingerprint or blood from a nosebleed that AK had.
Third thing I read that surprised me -is that now the papers are saying that perhaps this murder took place was due to AK stealing money from MK. Investigators want to connect the call that was made from MK's cell to her bank somehow.
Lastly, there were three knife wounds. 1 long cut made with knife that was found at RS's apt. and 2 smaller cuts that were possibly made from a swiss army knife (could it be a knife from one of RS's collection??).
nearseattle - if RHG was alone in the crime, then why was alot of the scene attempted to be thoroughly washed?
that's the only thing, and the knife, and the CCTV footage, an Amanda's strange behaviour of not being bothered afterwards, and shopping with RS for lingerie the next day.
peace, love & empathy.
I think at this point it is pretty clear that all three - RHG, RS, and AK - were somehow involved in the actual murder. Theories about how one or the other was only involved in the cleanup, or was threatened to keep to quietm, do not hold water. If that were the case, they would be able to make a credible confession that is consistent with the evidence but have not done so.
what bugs me THE MOST about this case of Amanda Knox is that we have obtained little of what her life was like (and her personality and sexual identity)before she arrived in Spain ready to study for a year...
I think any past information on her psychological state prior to these events (and also a complete scrubbing of any and all other related cases that occurred during her time in Espana), can/could uncover even more similarities to other cases of this same type.
(aside:...): (for those of you making crass and erroneous statements about the decedent..I urge you to find your BASIC SENSE of human dignity after reading any text on the military and examining any and all advanced training that sodiers take.
While the aftore mentioned brainwashing may have seen simnply enough in words....I URGE YOU (as a family member of an officer for over 16 years) to tally the answers and then share them with Greta or another news~worthy media outlet.
ohhhhhh! Re~reading it, my last post sounded very vindictive to say the least~ I AM SO SORRY ABOUT THAT!
I STILL have tons of questions pertaining to the timeline but am also sure that the distributors of such comments are hard, if not impossible, to read and assimilate.
WHAT CAN YOU ADD HERE, GRETA? I swear...out of all women alive currently on our planet YOU ROCK THE GLOBE! (and Meredith....while I know those were not your words during the investigation,,,they still managed to help you set yourself free!)
Steve~o,
You said this:
" I think some of you who are saying you see nothing in common are missing my overall point, but that's ok."
I think I have your point..but I am a 'real' blonde and for some reason that really DOES effect my processing speed.
So here goes....Amanda Knox and Natalee are on flip sides of a coin because they were both young and on their own and due to their teenage lack of impulse control ended up in similar situations.(being murdered). Yet...their situations could not be more different at the same time.
I think we should keep looking for Stacy and putting on the ultimate pressure as well.
So when will this end?
Both stories remind us of the danger of letting our guard down or taking greater risks when in a foreign country.
As regards the Perugia (Italy) case, the victim, MK, had not let her guard down. She already had sensed a danger in Knox's "strange men". This was why she objected to them (not because she was prude).
Still, if MK had been in London or Leeds rather than in Italy, with such a roommate, she would have already moved out of the house. So she also was taking a greater risk (risk by association). (This is not in any way to place the blame on the victim.)
As for Knox, she went right off the rails...
In the Madeleine case, there too the parents took a greater risk (leaving their three kids unattended), simply because they were abroad.
From what I can see, looks like the 3 of them were all involved to some degree. makes a nice grim story....wait for Hollywood to latch on!
I thought that there was a finger print on meredith's face from amanda. It was a fingerprint which also indicated that a great deal of pressure/force was applied to meredith.
Now the press and the prosecuter are acting as if this new blood find in the bathroom is the only substantial clue that puts amanda in the house when she says she wasn't.
What is up?
Steve, I think your opinion about Natalee Holloway is unfortunately true. what do you think about Madeleine McCann? As much as people want to be optimistic, do you think the worst has happened to her as well? Am interested to read your opinion on that case. Thank you.
I've always felt that Natalee was most likely disposed of at the location of an abandoned meat packing plant, which is on the north coast end of the island.
This was a place where workers used to dump scraps of meat into the ocean, which in time attracted sharks, both large and small.
Today, it stands as a place where tourists go to see/feed sharks.
When I was Honeymooning in Aruba (June of 2005) I heard from many different locals that sharks were still fed at this location, as well as others in the coastal areas of the island, for the purpose of keeping the sharks away from the beaches.
That being said, until a body or other conclusive evidence of death is produced, I wouldn't write off the possibility (remote as it may be) that Natalee is alive and being held captive against her will, as part of the ever growing human trafficking sex trade. (Especially with the international connections of the accused in this case.)
Seriously... it wouldn't be difficult at all to slip a girl a mickey at Carlos'n Charlie's and then carry her off to be transported, by boat, plane, or whatever.
nursebeeme was like:
> what bugs me THE MOST about this case of Amanda Knox is that we have
> obtained little of what her life was like (and her personality and sexual
> identity)before she arrived in Spain ready to study for a year...
>
> I think any past information on her psychological state prior to these
> events (and also a complete scrubbing of any and all other related
> cases that occurred during her time in Espana), can/could uncover even
> more similarities to other cases of this same type.
>
WTF?
> (aside:...): (for those of you making crass and erroneous statements
> about the decedent..I urge you to find your BASIC SENSE of human dignity
> after reading any text on the military and examining any and all
> advanced training that sodiers take.
(ASIDE: WTF? "decedent"? "military"? "sodiers"?)
> While the aftore mentioned brainwashing may have seen simnply
> enough in words....I URGE YOU (as a family member of an officer for over
> 16 years) to tally the answers and then share them with Greta or another
> news~worthy media outlet.
WTF?
Excuse me if this misses the (ie your) point, but may I respectfully request that you consider refraining from hitting the "post" button whilst under the influence of mind-altering substances?
What has "Spain" got to do with anything, much less a "decedent" or "so[l]diers"?
Hi everybody!..
so...
Some news (if you can call this "a news") ... The AK's version on the day (I've lost the progressive number... I think would be the 6th?)
http://www.ansa.it/opencms/
expor...l_42997966.html
"AK reaffirms the version that she has never been in the house in Via della Pergola while Meredith Kercher was killed"...
ciao
More news:
http://www.lastampa.it/
redazione...27955girata.asp
RS's lawyers will demonstrate that Postal Police went to the cottage at 01,05pm... So they can prove that RS really called the police earlier...
What a shitty couple of lawyers... But masonry CAN...
ciao
...and I'll leave you with my first (and still unsolved) question of the previous thread:
Why MK's cell phones were launched JUST THERE?
ciao e buona notte
Eh, I don't believe that taking the knife to the cottage necessarily proves premeditation, other than planning to use it for cooking.
And the reason there was no evidence of the knife in AK's purse was because the Clever Cleaners wrapped it in something before tucking it into the purse.
Without having any forensic analysis of the cuts, I surmise that one knife was used...it cut shallowly a couple of times and then the fatal blow was dealt.
If other loose ends on the crime are tied up nice and pretty then the knife does become premeditation, I believe, and the phone calls, and a bunch of stuff. Daddykins made a decent case on Sonnny's knife (knife #2, tied to one wound) being a matter of habit.
Meredith's friends would have known if she'd had plans after their pizza-movie party, at least so far as she may have mentioned needing to be home at 9; and, they should have noticed phone calls coming in. I'm hanging on to MK as an innocent roomie for now, although, I thought her tox may have shown a little cannabis or a toot or two. I do recall it coming back clean. We haven't heard about tox on big a or little rs yet, right?
I can feel you out there.
[Pinecone: I can't wait to get back to Italy.]
The Seattle board is getting more interesting. This is a thread of tree-huggers meets one of the macho lands of beer and hunting, with a few outsiders chiming in. I admit. I am waging a fact-finding mission to learn which hand ak favored.
http://tinyurl.com/ytfgua
I guess I'm having trouble with the premeditation theory because I feel as though the murder happened when things got out of hand.
I can't imagine the motive for planning MK's death.
If they planned on killing her from when they were still at RS's apt., why would they offer her mushrooms for a snack first?
Plus, I have a hunch that they wouldn't have known MK's schedule that night. AK and MK don't sound like the sort of roommates that check in with each other. "Hi Amanda, I'm going to a friend's house to watch a movie and have pizza. I'll probably get home around 9 or so...." Just isn't plausible, to me.
Also, if they had planned to end her life that night, why give her a wound that took two hours to bring her death? Why not just finish her off quickly and move into the cleaning part of the plan?
Of course, I'm trying to think like a murderer here, and that's about as possible as thinking like a cat.
OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DANGIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
How could I DARE to forget Melinda Duckett? This case FOR SURE needs sent over for further discussion. Steve~o, your coverage and tireless research outdid MSM BY MILES (but then again...your writing and coverage all seem to make preternatural sense and literally beg to be answered~if YOU ask them. This is a skill that is so very rare.
Rock on brother. You are 'the king' of internet true crime blogging. You have redesigned the face of investigation with a little nip here and a tuck there.
ahhhh.....
ps, I took the haunted tour of Fort Leavenworth (the base on which I currently live) and got a chance (during this halloween tour) to enter the old DSB (army prision...they have built a new one within the last five years or so).
No MPs that had worked the old dsb before would even come on the grounds to talk about it! I looked up at the elevator shaft where they had hung 10 German POWs (they were murdered in cold blood without a trial)and spotted a shadow person in one of the windows with his arms crossed and looking down at us. It made my hair stand on end!!
funniest thing about that.....no one has been in or occupied the old buildings for the past five years! I am also not the only one who saw the shadow person...another little boy (around 
also was VERY FREAKED OUT BY IT)and vocalized it way before I would have.
The guard went on to talk about the former shadow person they had on the third tier of cells in the old dsb...they purposfuly kept that cell open because every time any guard made rounds they were showever and pushed almost over the railing of tier three.
One officer actually fell to his death...and that is what our docient that night explained.
Lights in the guard towers go on and off at all times of the day and night at the old dsb (and the lights DO NOT HAVE BULBS!!!).
Creepy, I tell you! Next week my friend and I are going to go place flowers on all the german pow gravesites. At the time of their execution they were burried along the north~south axis (which is a slam to anyone in the military....as all mlitary are to be burried facing the east...facing the son).
sorry...that would be, "facing the sUn"
And also, Fort Leavenworth was (and is) the sight of the largest mass killing in US penal history.
Over 50+ soldiers were hanged to the death in alphabetical order.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ne...pect/
article.do New to me......New to you?
Middie | Homepage | 11.28.07 - 5:07 pm | #
Your question I do not understand. What do you mean by launched?
It is never in my intentions to vilify the victim, but some questions do need to be asked, especially when they can mean the difference between a accident death and a premeditated murder.
Grant it, knowing that Meredith Kercher and Amanda Knox didn't necessarily live in perfect harmony, does make any willing liaisons between the group of those in question UNLIKELY.
That being said... It seems as if this, "Last Supper", did serve the purpose of seducing Meredith, if only to drop her guard. Kind of like breaking bread or extending an olive branch.
Meredith strikes me as someone who would have just as soon forgave and forgotten, but that is merely speculation on my part....just as I speculate that Amanda is prideful and the complete antithesis of a forgiver.
(Makes it ironic that she is seeking council on the concept of forgiveness... or does it?)
I can't be sure that during this "snack," a heated argument didn't soon follow, that tempers weren't lost, and an action was committed that could never be taken back. However, the wounds inflicted upon Meredith seem the furthest thing from rage or a drug induced frenzy.
I've seen violent drug fueled crime scenes (during my days as a first responder)and as I've said before, the degree of overkill is more often than not EXTREME.
I see a lot more control here. It could just be circumstantial, but one gets the impression that whoever killed Meredith KNEW they had all the time they needed to carry out whatever intentions they had. (and that the other 2 roommates weren't going to walk in on the scene as it unfolded.)
I guess what I am saying is that I am beginning to lean towards some degree of a premeditated act. Perhaps the initial intention wasn't to take a life...perhaps all of those involved weren't on the same page. All it takes is for one person to take something a little too far....
Accounts of Amanda in jail have been a mixed review, every spectrum of the manic rainbow. Also, in her own words, she has a bunch of different "truths," but she isn't sure which one is "real." I believe she is looking directly down the barrel of that through and knows damn well what it is.
If Rudy Hermann Guede was even slightly involved in the plot, surely the same Raffaele Sollecito who has attempted to distance himself from his girlfriend, would point his finger at Rudy to save his own hide... Yet, he has not. This despite Rudy's generic "assassin" description that almost physically fits Rafe to a tee.
Does Rafe fear Rudy... or is it simply the fear that Rudy has the information needed to firmly put Rafe at the scene of the crime, be it before or after? (My read on Rafe is that his greatest fear is disappointing his father.)
Amanda seems loyal to Rudy, to a fault. I've suggested they are "birds of a feather," with some mutual understanding/fondness. I also suggested that Amanda supplanted Patrick Lumumba name for Rudy's and Patrick, himself, has already disclo
continued...
I also suggested that Amanda supplanted Patrick Lumumba name for Rudy's and Patrick, himself, has already disclosed her possible motivation for doing so.
The degree of Rudy's involvement seems to be the linchpin to this case. He has already contradicted himself as many times as Amanda Knox has, so it's difficult to get an accurate read on him. What has run through my head is ghoulish, to say the least, but does go back to his initial acknowledgment of having sex with Meredith, but not killing her. Perhaps that is because you can not kill someone who is already dead?
I found it very interesting how the day after Amanda's journal was leaked, RS released his letter to his father. It seemed as though RS was directly responding to Amanda's words of confussion and sadness that RS is not being nice about her, and that everything is like a dream in her life > RS then writes confirming that life is like a dream for amanda, and that he does not think she is a killer.
I also feel that not only is Amanda loyal to Rudy, Rudy is loyal to her. I dont believe most of what Rudy is saying, but I am sure there are partial truths to his lies, just as Luke determines the truth in Amanda "I heard screaming held my ears" lies.
I feel that they really thought that they could pin this murder on merediths boyfriend. They put blood in his flat downstairs, and Rudy I think thought he could lead people to assume that the boyfriend came in to the flat in a jealous rage cause he got wind that meredith was having sex with Rudy. I do not feel that Rudy was trying to implicate RS.
Long time lurker
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
MEOW lol
The Seattle board is getting more interesting.
http://tinyurl.com/ytfgua
xin | 11.29.07 - 1:00 am | #
--very interesting thanks for posting.
Very intriguing supposition, chris.
I had missed the news about blood being in/near the boyfriend's flat. Is there an article that references this being the case?
I wonder if Rafe left his footprint on the duvet as he was covering Meredith's body, perhaps as a last act of contrition? Either that, or he may have been the one to drag the body as it had been wrapped in the duvet, leaving contrition completely out of the equation.
Indications are that the body was drug into the closet and then drug back towards the bed. It seems that maybe they could have drug the body into the closet while they decided how to stage the murder.....
blood being in meredith boyfriends flat was in the press in the beginning of this case. But god knows what is true or not, cause I am hearing nothing anymore about Amandas finger marks on Meredith face anymore either. But, let me go look for the article.
That Seattle board is humorous, little more than that. Tons of ignorance and assumptions to go around on there.
Post of the year!
"Nigga is bein' framed by doze white beeatches. He was taking a dump, and lizznen to fitty cent. Den him am herded a noiz and wet out to see what am goin' on and some eyetie got all up in his grill so ah boned out, yo. It ain't his foety five nike in da room. It a foety 2. Dat eyetie kidz size yo. "I wuz juzz layin some pipe am den I got all sick and had to make a dooty" "I wote AF on da wall cuz dat stabbed girl wuz sayin dat am den I got ma nigga azz up outa dah.""
whoops:
couple of posts from other thread:
Amanda Knox: Happy, jovial, and smiley in prison, has her own en-suite. and everything is wonderful wonderful wonderful.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith129.xml
She has the upper body strength to do pull-ups on bars in her "sorority"-as she describes the atmosphere between her & fellow prisoners - dorm.
=========
seems AK is very happy in her cell. keep her there :D
====
question: in any of her statements made to friends or HMs of meredith kercher, or in any of her uni-for-prisoners writings, has SHE EVER said she's saddened by merediths death?
===
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...n=null&
offset=0
amanda knox on prison life.
she has asked the prison priest about the concept of forgiveness.
sorry if already posted
Loz | 11.29.07 - 9:25 am | #
Loz,
It's all about Amanda. Amanda's feelings, Amanda's inconveniences, the way Amanda is being treated, etc..
Now she is happy that she is being treated with "dignity," which in her own words, "Is important."
TYPICAL SOCIOPATHIC PERSONALITY.
It reminds me of the way that Drew Peterson is behaving.
IDk.... mushrooms, cheese... most likely a little wine. Sounds like "sexy" food to me.
-LUKE
YEAH cheesey breath, real sexsay!
if she had chocolate coated strawberries, MAYBE Id give you that.
Loz | 11.29.07 - 9:28 am | #
==================================================
==========================
""Luke said: Indications are that the body was drug into the closet and then drug back towards the bed. It seems that maybe they could have drug the body into the closet while they decided how to stage the murder...""
I wonder why they had reason to put the body in the closet though. was it lockable?
did they consider mopping up the all the blood I wonder?
I have been searching still havent found story yet that refers to blood in boyfrineds flat downstairs, but I do see many bloggers referencing that story-- when i find story will post.
Well Papa Sollecito has certainly been quiet the past couple of days.
Interesting, the Forza Nuevo fascist party guy visits (and has somehow got permission) Foxy in jail, gets her yapping and then runs to the paper.
Who thought that idea up?
Could it be ... Satan?
I thought Saturday was visiting day. The only guy who benefits from that visit is RS.
Correction: maybe not part of fascist-leaning group who put up the posters. The visitor is described:
"I love mountain-climbing with bare hands, without a rope. It's my passion," she told Osvaldo Napoli, a member of parliament for Forza Italia who entered the prison to check on the conditions inside.
http://tinyurl.com/2gjfc5
Incarceration in a foreign land and looking at the possibility of doing a lengthy bid would scare the shit out of just about any normal person. She's acting like it's a party and one held in her honor, at that.)
"See you in Disneyland."- Richard Ramirez.
Amanda seemingly shares the same sentiments...
RS's lawyers have said that the kitchen knife found at his flat is not the murder weapon and that Meredith's dna was not found on the tip of the blade but on the handle. I read this on teletext...not sure if it's in the english press yet...
Ok-- here is one reference to the blood in other apartment. will get additional references that as I recall said specifically that it was the flat downstairs, and MK had the keys to feed the cats there, and blood was smeared on walls. But this is a start.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2811736.ece
Xin - I noticed that your comment on the Seattle board (about whether AK is right/left-handed) has been deleted (or did I just miss it?)
Re: mozarella and mushrooms.
If Meredith did eat at the house, I think this increases the probablity that Mr X and Ms X were there too.
I doubt whether MK would have eaten just with AK and RS (especially since she couldn't have been very hungry as she'd already had a pizza at 6.) But if there were also these two guests in the house, MK may have thought that she should be polite and sit down and chat with them, and eat with them...
Just a theory...
Damian, yeah I saw the Gargano from one of the Croatian islands, it was an amazingly clear day.
Well Papa Sollecito has certainly been quiet the past couple of days.
Interesting, the Forza Nuevo fascist party guy visits (and has somehow got permission) Foxy in jail, gets her yapping and then runs to the paper.
Who thought that idea up?
Could it be ... Satan?
I thought Saturday was visiting day. The only guy who benefits from that visit is RS.
xin
very interesting.
damian
a question....
was this cottage where the murder took place known for parties before the current student year?
it would be good to know
.
Incarceration in a foreign land and looking at the possibility of doing a lengthy bid would scare the shit out of just about any normal person. She's acting like it's a party and one held in her honor, at that.)
"See you in Disneyland."- Richard Ramirez.
Amanda seemingly shares the same sentiments...
Luke | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 1:35 pm | #
unless she see's her being moved about, given respect, given a bigger cell, more visiting rights (hang on wasn't her mum allowed to visit), more lawyer contact, people & the priest guy in there liking her, and her lawyers telling her there's little forensics etc etc...maybe she sees it as a sign she is going to be released soon.
and what if she is?
from the Times online:
Investigators said that Ms Kercher almost certainly shared a meal with her killers on the night that she was murdered. Giuliano Mignini, the investigating magistrate in the case, said that the post-mortem on Ms Kercher had revealed a mushroom in her oesophagus.
He said that Ms Kercher was known to have eaten an early supper of pizza and ice cream with two British women friends, both fellow students, at six o’clock on the evening of her death. But Sophie Purton, one of the friends, had testified that the meal contained no mushrooms.
Mr Mignini said that Ms Kercher and Ms Knox were fond of mushrooms. He found it very probable that mushrooms had been part of a late-evening snack in which Ms Kercher joined, perhaps before or during a sex and drugs party that “went wrong” and ended in her death.
He said that champignon mushrooms of the kind found in Ms Kercher’s oesophagus had been found in the fridge at Mr Sollecito’s flat, where the kitchen knife believed to be the murder weapon was also found.
http://tinyurl.com/34tjyd
The supposition that Meredith ate with anyone at the cottage seems a leap if the only mushroom found was in her esophagus. Perhaps I'm missing something here.
That the mushroom is the same type as those found in RS's fridge is not damning in itself, but is yet one more link connecting Meredith's death with RS.
I'm leaning toward an argument (over money, over men, over everything?) that went way, way too far. Meredith came home, found a known drug dealer cozied up and using with AK, discovered money missing from her room, and a fight ensued. RS was involved in at least the clean up, maybe more.
They covered Meredith from view--out of sight, out of mind, and then they didn't have to look at what they had done to her.
My thoughts on using initials (albeit carefully): Early on, someone expressed that using initials for the suspects and using Meredith's full name as the victim in this case was a way to show a bit of respect for Meredith and her family. I agree, as long as we commenters can keep straight on who we are talking about.
"Reports said that the killer appeared to have cleaned himself up after the bloody murder not only at Ms Kercher’s house but also in the one below, to which he evidently had a key, since there was no sign of a break-in."
Thanks, chris...
and Whoah....
OK, the boyfriend supposedly has an alibi, but how solid? (especially if they still don't have the time line figured out.)
Oops, forgot my senility pill this morning. The anonymous post at 2:41 pm was me.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ne...pect/
article.do
More on RHGs statement.
Rob...I really don't know but I wouldn't imagine so. As a student house, I guess it would depend on the occupants, who change regularly.
"On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate"
If the american is knox, and one of the italians is RS.
was the third italian PL, or one of RSs friends?
"interesting elements", and how would that relate to the house?
Ok-- here is one reference to the blood in other apartment. will get additional references that as I recall said specifically that it was the flat downstairs, and MK had the keys to feed the cats there, and blood was smeared on walls. But this is a start.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol...icle2811736.ece
chris | 11.29.07 - 2:12 pm | #
blood smears on the walls.
"interestng elements" in the post mortem, to which the house & body relates. could it be there was some satanic stuff.
--soz about this. but in the sand i got 'sin', a trident, & either
"
"Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, the fourth suspect in the case, spoke about Miss Kercher's final moments to German police."
"He reportedly said he had tried to help Miss Kercher as she lay dying."
"He said: "There was blood everywhere, all over the floor. I went over and I saw she had a wound in her neck. I went to the bathroom to take a towel to stop the haemorrhage. Several seconds passed and the towel became soaked in blood, so I took another one."
"Meredith was trying to talk, but it was difficult to understand her because of the wound. I did not call a doctor because of all the blood and I was totally confused."
"When I last saw her she was still alive. She was still breathing. She lay diagonally on the ground, in front of the wardrobe. I cannot say if she was still conscious when I left."
Damn....sure glad I never had a roomate like Rudy....Would hate the thought of having been hurt,and would have intrusted him with my welfare....Damn....Is he so fucked up,he can't figure out ,how fucked up that sounds?....Some peoples kids..Damn
Luke,
I agree with you that RGH's description of the assassin fits RS to a tee. Thanks for your usual case surmise.
Hey Rudy.....Maybe Meridith was trying to tell you to call a doctor.....Sorry still shaking my head
Luke,
I also think that RS's lawyers realize that and have never publicly stated that RS did not kill MK. The are simply stating that RS was in his room all night and not at the cottage where poor Meridith was killed.
Loz>"On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate"
If the american is knox, and one of the italians is RS.
was the third italian PL, or one of RSs friends?<
The residents were Meredith, Amanda,and the two young Italian ladies who traveled over that holiday.
SO Amanda was sprung from her cell for a bit? The other roomies and her and the cops. That musta been pretty interesting, if I'm getting this scene right.
Do you recall where you read that?
meman2
RGH could not do that because as he has already stated, he was invited to the party. After all, he was the drug pusher de jour for all these people. That is the only reason why he was invited. And he got there early too, at 8:38 pm as he stated. With all the new issued about the last digested food, it almost implies that there was indeed a party at the cottage. RGH has stated that they kissed and touched, but nothing serious. This belies the Police report however. This case gets more bizarre every day.
Luke: can you bring the timeline forward (I'm hoping you are keeping it in Word) sometime when you got nothing better to do?
The hearing tomorrow is closed to the public, so we will depend upon third hand info once again.
Haven't heard anything about the giallo couple lately,either. Maybe tomorrow.
bpcl.....Thanks and I agree with you....Just think Rudy is not right in the head.....His logic amazes me...My two last posts, were pretty much,caused by his statements...that you posted...thanks
Damn it.
More of those f'ing "gravatars" on this page, with links to amazon or something to get the image, slows down the load. Is there a way to opt out of those stupid things? They should be banned in any sort of serious blog.
Sorry, I know it's "fun."
meman2,
However, RGH could be telling the truth that he went into the bathroom to do his business(After all, at a party, we all do different things, drink, tall to friends, use the bathroom, go outside)
He said he was listening to music and then he heard MK's screams. He rushes out to face the assassin who as Luke just pointed out, fits RS to a tee.(Shorter than him, Italien, brown hair with glasses)He tries to help MK who is probably dying, but to no avail. What is the dude suppose to do? He is a person of color, who the hell will believe him(I am not defending him, I am just trying to get in his mind; and if you do not think this is true, you only need to think of PL in this case) He stated that he left, although we do not know the exact time. One person did report that a person of color ran by at great speed, almost knocking her partner down. It is my belief now, there was indeed a Mr. X and Ms X involved. Someone has stipulated here about a possible party there. Rudy as he has said, and I believe him, that he did not kill Meredith.
memen2,
And if we are to believe that there were at least 6 people at the scene (MK, AK, RS, RGH and Mr. X & Ms. X) only RGH has stated that he tried to help her( a person of color) All the others, just simply waited for her to die! The Police are on too all of this I am sure. It is just that you and I are sitting here together chatting, tantalizingly waiting for the facts to come out.
[Wow. That was fast,avatars seem to be gone now. Thank you Jesus.]
I simply cannot believe that a person who was not responsible for the murder would not call for medical help. If you do not want to be blamed for the murder, then the easiest way to avoid that is to call for help!
Xin,
You should thank Steve!
Thank you Jesus, and Steve.
xin.....You Are Welcome
Blah,
Responsible citizens would do that. However, in this case, do you think that RS, AK, RGH and the mysterious couple, who most likely, at least according to the Police, came there for sex and drugs(RGH supplying the drugs) are responsible citizens. I think not, and especially when they killed her. And as RGH has admitted, he had sex with MK. His DNA was on/in her. He was screwed. RGH has stated that the assassin said to him, "You are black, who will believe you, or to that effect). That is why Luke has stated, "Evil went down in that cottage that night" against Meredith. Suddenly, she was all alone, unprotected, and had no savior to help her. It was unfortunately for all who loved her dearly, her time to leave.
I just do not believe that RGH was threatened into not calling for help. He was either involved in the murder, raped Meredith, or was just callous and stupid.
Xin commented:
Luke: can you bring the timeline forward (I'm hoping you are keeping it in Word) sometime when you got nothing better to do?
Xin,
I am really not the one to ask when you need anything involving time, or especially, mathematical thinking. My brain just doesn't work that way for some reason. ( I chalk that up to a drowning incident as a toddler.)
Anyway...
So Rudy seems to be straying far from the fact that he had any kind of sexual contact with Meredith in his latest account, yet, his DNA WAS found IN her...
I'm telling ya, this is gonna be creepy if it all went down like I think it did. LE has to be keeping certain details out of the media, stuff only they and those involved with the killing would know.
Details that would make this more sensational than it already is.
bpcl..........But if you run...normally its because your either guilty,or you are hiding something.......But if they have to drag your ass back from another Country...your pretty much guilty I think
Blah,
Your beliefs about RGH are justified. I am just trying to enter his mine. He is not educated like RS, AF, MK etc. He is the drug pusher of the neighborhood; the low life if you will. He had been in trouble with the law before. The only reason why I think he was invited to the 'party'(if there was one) was to supply the drugs. He is the drug pusher for the group.
According to his statement, he tried to help her. The only person who has stated that. At the last part of his statement stated above, he said he was confused. I think he he did not know what to do, these people would never help him and he ran. He will forever remember his cowardice at a critical moment in a human being's life. I believe he is just "callous and stupid" as you say. One of the lower people running around in our society.
He has stated that he had sex with Meredith and it was consensual. I am not sure I believe him because it appears she was on her period. It is my belief that most women would not consent to sex during this time of their bodies history.
All this being said, in time, the facts will come out when these 3(5) rats will have to oppose each other in court.
All of them failed Meredith that day, and will live with that cowardice in their souls to the day they die.
This is a crazy ass week in crime news...
This case, Sean Taylor's murder, the ongoing Peterson case heating up, an internet porn model's apparent murder in Kansas, an Ohio couple with myspace accounts being sought for an armored car heist...
and the beat goes on......
memen2,
He is guilty by association and in law parlance that it interpreted to mean, that he was involved in her murder; just as you say. I am in accordance with you.
OK, somebody smart like Luke started a timeline. Give em up.
http://tinyurl.com/26np49
Now, we got Amanda talking to an Italian politician, and also La Stampa.
This hearing tomorrow, closed, darn, will feature big a and RS together again at last.
oh... and Rodney King got shot...
Luke,
It never ceases to amaze me about the levels human beings can stoop to, even though they/all of us, live in the garden of Eden(Earth) From a religious point of view(going back to the Bible's earliest stories, Cain vs. Abel etc.) this activity has been going on. It is the 'aggressivity' gene that is apart of our genetic code. One can only hope that we can overcome it, before it destroys us. All of your posts have thoughtfully alluded to this genetic makeup in our human psychology, do I dare say.
Luciano Ghirga, her lawyer, told Italian newspaper La Repubblica that Knox said to him: "I hope this affair is cleared up soon and I can go home. Where? To Perugia. I want to live in this city, I love it, it is the place that does it for me."
UK Telegraph 11/29/07
Is this girl completely crazy? She talks about her situation(this affair "being cleared up soon" as though she was in prison for stealing a box of chocolates from Meredith. Even if she is innocent, I would think that the brutal murder of her flatmate would horrify and confound her. If she were innocent, she would be frantic to prove it, and mortified to be a suspect. Even RS had the decency to at least mention the cruelty of Meredith's death. He calls his jail time a "walk in hell". Amanda calls it a "sorority" with Marvelous new friends!
And she's going to live in Perugia?! Does she not have any idea of how reviled she is by the citizens and students of perugia? Even if she were completely absolved of any role in the murder, she still falsely named Patrick, a beloved figure in the town, as the murder.
But its the only town that "does it" for her. When I read this article I was trying to figure out the reason and strategy. Is her lawyer portraying her serenity as proof of innocence, or is this part of an insanity plea?!!
At the very least, she is definitely one of the coldest, most heartless and narcissistic individuals Ive ever run across.
a2,
Luke stated above, and I respect his opinion when it comes to these small minded perps mindsets, that AK has a 'typical sociopathic personality.' I did not know what he meant by this type of personality, however, upon reading your comments, I think you describe AK's sociopathic personality, very well. Thank you.
xin was like:
>More of those f'ing "gravatars" on this
page, with links to amazon or something
> to get the image, slows down the load. Is there a way to opt out of those
> stupid things? They should be banned in any sort of serious blog.
>
I'm not sure what the "fucking gravatars" are to which you refer; all I see on this page is text and a couple of buttons at the bottom below the forms.
Perhaps the problem is with your web browser. Have you considered upgrading?
Someone made an intelligent observation that the word "sociopath" is flung around far too frequently on true-crime message boards. That same poster agreed that Amanda fits the bill to a tee.
These past couple weeks we have been "treated" to prime examples of folks with Antisocial personality disorder. Honestly, if you were to look up the word, you would find Drew Peterson as example 1A and Amanda Knox as 1B.
I am intrigued by the female sociopathic personality, as it is the rarer of the two. (though it does seem that their numbers are increasing as of late.)
Seattle - Perugia --- twin cities
Good girl - Bad girl - two sides of a coin
Yeah, Perugia is where she wanna be...
XIN said: "Loz>"On Sunday evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate" If the american is knox, and one of the italians is RS. was the third italian PL, or one of RSs friends?< The residents were Meredith, Amanda,and the two young Italian ladies who traveled over that holiday.
SO Amanda was sprung from her cell for a bit? The other roomies and her and the cops. That musta been pretty interesting, if I'm getting this scene right.
Do you recall where you read that?
xin | 11.29.07 - 3:28 pm | #
-------------------------------
frm chris above: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...icle2811736.ece
-------------------------------
so maybe at that point none of them had been arrested or charged. i think it would have been Sun 4th november. on the day/day before they were charged.
erm - is everyone here aware that tomorrow is the day the judge will decide if any of the suspects are freed from prison?
Rob...I really don't know but I wouldn't imagine so. As a student house, I guess it would depend on the occupants, who change regularly.
damian | 11.29.07 - 3:05 pm
could you ask around? sorry to bother but if anybody in the town knew it as a 'party' house earlier this year it would support the big a defenders and could be significant...
.
In my search for the old news reports that there was blood a downstairs flat, I came across this. A reference to how police said knox held meredith down. this as i recall was also based on knox fingerprints on meredith face. Now we see nothing about this. I frankly do not believe that they found Knox fingerprint on Meredith anymore, cause if they did, we would still be hearing about this.
I really think that the police have cleaverly planted stuff in press that they know is not true, with the intention to get somehow to say " but that is not true, it was like this.." a common way to break cases on either side of the pond.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher108.xml
Orders were issued for a series of dawn raids on Tuesday and Knox broke down under interrogation. She burst into tears and made her confession at 5.45am after the interrogator said: "You did it, you held her down."
Xin
Here's my revised timeline:
8.45 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X arrive at house.
8.50 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir fry them.
9.00 The five have snack of garlic mushrooms and mozarella cheese.
9.15 MK arrives, and tastes the mushrooms.
9.30 AK, RS, RHG, Mr X, and Ms X begin party in AK's room.
9.45 MK tells partypoopers to turn the music down (she's real tired after Halloween party the night before).
10.00 AK tells RHG, who's watching the foursome and looking a bit bored to "go get MK."
10.05 RHG enters MK's room.
10.07 MK tells RHG to leave. He takes her cellphones and goes back to AK's room.
10.10 AK, RS, Mr X, Ms X accompany RHG to MK's room and force her to do some things.
10.30 Third final stab.
10.31 RHG rushes out of house (MK's cellphones are still in his pocket, so he dumps them nearby).
10.32 Foursome leave victim's room, locking the door behind them.
10.30 - 11.00 AK, RS, Mr X and Ms X listen to MK's screams, until she goes quiet.
11.30 They return to room, and move body.
11.45 - 02.00 Clean up.
02.00 Horlicks and toast.
02.30 Buona notte a tutti
anonymous said: "I read contradictory accounts of the blood stain found in the bathroom - i read that it was AK fingerprint or blood from a nosebleed that AK had."
-agreed could it have been a drop of AKs blood in which she imprinited her finger?-----
all these articles about sex games gone wrong. I am feeling is to prepare people for the fact MK may have participated up to a point.
RHGs confusion over whether he had sex with MK and the tampon evidence. well, is it lost in translation? is there a tampn, outside or inside the body, with whatever trace of RHG on it would to me indicate non-consensual since it clearly wasn't flushed, if outside the body, but 'strewn'. could there be two links to his dna, one nt semen on the tampon, another, semen, in MK??
I can promise those who fear Amanda Fox will be chewed up and spat out in the uK? European press that all we are interested in is what really happened to Meredith. I have read that Meredith was beginning to get fed up with all the different boyfriends Amanda was bringing home and wanted to talk to her about it. That's the worst I've read. However spare a thought for the McCann's - in three papers today I saw they'd sold Madeleine into slavery themselves, were the killers and a book was being written to prove this and and yet another libellous remark about their DNA and Madeleine's having been found mixed "somewhere" (really, that accurate!) and this is seven months on from Madedeine's disappearance...
Fiz (UK) | 11.27.07 - 5:36 pm | #
but fiz, i think you can take MKs frustration with AK over this. As MKs friends were the ones to relate it, and were named in the press.
-----------
this ties in with AKs laywers saying she's being smeared by the italian Police & press. actually, while it doesn't make her a murderer, it was the statements of PL, and people who knew or knew of AK that related these stories TO THE PRESS ie they are not police leaks or fabricated. the boyfriend, friends & hms of MK also related AKs lack of sorrow over MKs death & her strange behaviour after the murder. It all helps build a profile. -----
i too would like justice, but can not escape the fact that AK is 'interesting' in this case.
oh yeah, and that goes without mentioning the shopping for lingerie.
I simply cannot believe that a person who was not responsible for the murder would not call for medical help. If you do not want to be blamed for the murder, then the easiest way to avoid that is to call for help!
blah | 11.29.07 - 3:52 pm | #
agreed, and further, that at no point during the attack they felt remorse enough to stop it.
a broken hyroid bone would make a snap. perhaps tis occured post-mortem?
RHG's tactic is obviously to place increasing blame on RS, while maintaining his own innocence (i.e. consensual sex with MK). His hope is that AK will side with him - and then it's "two against one".
This makes me think that he did indeed rape MK and that AK wielded the 8 inch knife. RS wielded the smaller penknife.
I draw parallels to this story: "She went down with a scream. The first cut sent them into a frenzy as they tasted and smelled blood. I saw the dogs eating bits of her." http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/new...86908-20176691/
I simply cannot believe that a person who was not responsible for the murder would not call for medical help. If you do not want to be blamed for the murder, then the easiest way to avoid that is to call for help!
blah | 11.29.07 - 3:52 pm | #
Unless, he knew of the plan to murder. forcibly had sex with her. then thought 'hang on, murder is too much' and tried to save her. Or, well he knew how suspicious he'd look after having sex with her (forced or otherwise), especially with his criminal record, whether or not he knew of any plan to murder her. Maybe he was even running in fear of his own life. did he go to that club after washing his clothes (if he did) for safety. when did he split to germany?
I'm telling ya, this is gonna be creepy if it all went down like I think it did. LE has to be keeping certain details out of the media, stuff only they and those involved with the killing would know.
Details that would make this more sensational than it already is.
Luke | Homepage | 11.29.07 - 4:08 pm | #
like an attempt at the occult?
The supposition that Meredith ate with anyone at the cottage seems a leap if the only mushroom found was in her esophagus. Perhaps I'm missing something here. -annymous
agreed, how long is the esophagus?
Luke, not like you can have faith in leaked reports, but they do say that sex between rudy and meredith happened before sex.
THis is how I think some happened. Rudy is a drug dealer, but he is also not doing well finacially. Amanda owes him money for drugs, he needs it now, besides the money for drugs for the night in question. Amanda steals the money from Meredith, and besides that, Rudy and Amanda are hanging out at the flat having a drug party with others.
Rs has no knowledge of any of this, and if at all he is involved, he did some clean up, but didnt know it was about a murder.
I know I could easily be proved wrong, but hey, I am saying it.
Loz--I thinbk that luke is referring to sex with meredith after she was dead.
The esophagus, a narrow, muscular tube about 20 centimeters (8 inches) long...It takes only seconds for food to pass through the esophagus, and little digestion actually takes place.
--so, the kitchen knife had a mushroom stuck to it / on it.---
she could have had the meal which explains the mozzerella...then after a stray mushroom stuck to the knife, she was stabbed, the mushroom entered her esophagus directly through her wound. Unless they put the knife in her mouth first.-----
a dirtly knife. an impulsive weapon? a plant to make it look impulsive?---
and who did it? not the person with the pen knife...
I just wonder why the mushroom wouldn't have sloughed off on to the outside of her neck though.
lol....help
Has anyone guessed that she vomited?
My first thought on reading about the esophagus. Now I will read back.
LOZ-- Ihave no idea as to what you are talking about concerning knife and mushroom. clarify you theory.
"like an attempt at the occult?"
No, I wouldn't say "occult," especially now that this "mystery couple" appears to have been smoke and mirrors.
If anything "bizarre" happened, it was partially out of morbid curiosity (Rudy and Rafe, Amanda to a lesser degree) and partially in order to stage the crime (Like Rudy writing in blood on the wall, for example.)
I happen to believe that there is something "heavy" that we have yet to learn. I've speculated that the rape occurred postmortem. Rudy's latest story is omitting sex completely, for a reason.
could be that Rudy is now saying no sex because lawyers say no proof as to what info is leaked that Rudy DNA inside of meredith.
The police have leaked alot of stuff, that i am now finding to be untrue. Case closed? hmmm
But i do think that Rudy violated her, and amanda covered up. Why? really no reason except gut instinct.
Loz--I thinbk that luke is referring to sex with meredith after she was dead.
chris | 11.29.07 - 7:18 pm | #
god 
Has anyone guessed that she vomited?
My first thought on reading about the esophagus. Now I will read back.
xin | 11.29.07 - 7:24 pm | #
good thought & more plausable. who knows how 'whole' or digested the mushroom was.
LOZ-- Ihave no idea as to what you are talking about concerning knife and mushroom. clarify you theory.
chris | 11.29.07 - 7:24 pm | #
sorry. that the knife used to kill meredith, had a mushroom on it. having being previously used to cut/slice mushrooms with for the meal.
making th murder weapon THE knife in RSs place. if this is what the esophagus thing means.
Whew RS really is a rich boy. I'm fascinated by the new details, including testimony from his maid.
In addition to the knife, two bottles of bleach were also found in Sollecito's home. Mignini's summary noted bleach is useful for removing blood stains. Sollecito's maid told investigators the bleach had not been there before, and that she uses other products to clean the house.
Sollecito has said he was home and on his computer the night of the killing. Mignini disputed that, saying investigators had determined the computer was connected to the Internet but no one accessed it overnight.
A bloody footprint found near Kercher's body matched Sollecito's shoes, though the shoes themselves did not have any traces and had been washed, Mignini said.
That's from AP. http://ap.google.com/article/
ALe...1LAp6gD8T6U24G0
Shall some of us dismiss the idea that Rudy tried to save MK? Because it is nonsense. He split, simple.
AndtT: thanks for bringing forward the timeline. I'm wondering if we should put the mystery couple's spotting RG on the run should be added?
In my mind, RS is at the House of Horrors until some sort of credible evidence says he was not. (Phones turned off at same time, for starters? I can't see RS as being that comfortable around RG, although drugs and sex can be powerful motivators.)
(I'm afraid that in some cases, I default to the "guilty until proven innocent" school.)
""If anything "bizarre" happened, it was partially out of morbid curiosity (Rudy and Rafe, Amanda to a lesser degree) and partially in order to stage the crime (Like Rudy writing in blood on the wall, for example.)"""
what about AK being the 'fulcrum' though. the one who knew RS & RHG. how well did RS & RHG know each other?
did they plan it away from amanda that night?
why did she not run for or seek help?
Chris,
I know you would like to believe that RS is not involved with the murder of Meredith. That being said, look at it this way. He has never offered an alibi to where he was during the hours in which MK was murdered. He has stated that he was at home working on his computer. The Police have stated that while his computer was turned on, he was not surfing the net. There are very, easy ways to prove whether someone is on a computer or not. I could never convince me that he was on his computer surfing the net, because all surfing is tracked by the 'Cookie' concept. His lawyers have not produced anything to the contrary. They must use the 'Cookie' concept to prove that he was surfing, and thus his innocence.
Secondly, he has said he was surfing, so he cannot say he was sleeping. He lied to the Police when he said he answered a call from his Father around midnight; the call, as detected by the Police, went unanswered. His Father also sent him a text message, saying 'Goodnight' which RS did not answer.
If he had witnesses to prove he was somewhere else, they would have been brought forward by now.
The bloody shoe print has been matched to his shoe, based on the Judges remarks. One could argue that it could have been any shoe, alas for him, it is just one more piece of damning evidence against him.
Many days have passed since Meredith's fateful end, and his lawyers have produced nothing to the contrary.
In Law it is said, if you have the facts, argue the facts, if you do not, argue the Law; that is precisely what his lawyer(s) is/are doing.
His statement at the very beginning, "If I am here, it is the fault of my girlfriend Amanda,' is no different than Adam's remark to the deity when asked why he ate of the fruit on the tree; 'The woman you sent me, gave it to me.'
is there a link to a story that the mushroom was in the esophagus?
Ah, so the giallo couple were just a little tantalizing side trip...this really is sorta Keystone Cops, eh?
Isabella - good one thanks
bpcl | 11.29.07 - 7:46 pm | #
You are correct. I don't know why I have been feeling that he is innocent of murder, and of not being aware of covering a murder. But, if the evidence that he was not on his computer is true, then you are correct.But I have seen so much stuff leaked that is not true, that I will not believe until tomorrow, cause I would think that the judge would know what is BS
I also thought that RS' statement that he wasn't in the "room" when Meredith was killed. Seemed an odd way to phrase it. Was he in the house when she was killed?
chris - someone mentioned in a post above, maybe from 27th nov, about the mushroom in the esophagus.
I noticed that, too, a2, but it could've been poor translation.
Chris,
This is a tale of lost lives; many people here have eloquently alluded to it in their comments posted here. So much has been lost and the tragic thing about it is, this is our youth we are discussing, our future. You are correct to say that so much has been leaked that has been untrue.
I know computers very well, and the very thing that a computer expert will tell you is, look at the cookies on his computer. They will track what he was doing during the time that he stated. I am sure that he has good lawyers. A good lawyer will hire a good computer expert. A good computer expert will tell a good lawyer, he was surfing the net because not only do the cookies on his computer reflect this, but you will also see the same thing on his ISP provider. I waited to here this from somebody on his team before making the judgment that he was or was not on the computer. Since this has not been produced by his team, I must assume that the authorities are correct in saying that he was not surfing, as he said he was. This could have been his alibi sans a human being. Unfortunately for him, computers can be very good witnesses.
Good point, Emily. I hadn't thought of that.
Given that the LE has information that has not been leaked to the press, is there anyone here that believes that either of them will be let out of prison?
a2,
I highly doubt either of the two will be let out of prison based on the current evidence. The Police held tenaciously onto PL before letting him go. There is way too much circumstantial evidence, some of which we are privy to, and a lot more of which we are not, to let them go.
well AK expects hersel to be as in her statement from behind bars:
"she is aware of the fact she'll be a celeb, that the press & photographers will hound her, but has vowed only to speak to lawyers and at the trial"==in aks head she'll be a celeb. but please let me out, i promise i won't speak. i hav been practising my singing in jail. i am going to audition for x-Factor.
dream on...
I don't think that I said that very well...Sorry.
Given that the judge will probably see evidence that we aren't privy to tomorrow, does anyone believe that RS or AK would be allowed to go to "house arrest" or be allowed to be free until trial?
she basically wants bail.
even local nuns said, if let out on bail, she can reside with them.
it's all setting her up for freedom and/or bail
a2,
The Judge in this case has consistently said that both AK and RS are flight risks. From what I understand, both of them can be held for one year.
If you read the Judge's pre-released comments, you will observe between the lines, that the more the Police has studied the case, the more probable it is, they feel, that both RS and AK were involved.
That being said, based on the statements of the Judge, I do not forsee either of them leaving prison anytime soon.
**if the mushroom not sicked up, but put there with the mushroom knife way after meal time - and that knife is the knife at RSs house. then RS nor AK (given her dna on the blade) will be allowed to be under house arrest.
**RHG - he's not even in italy yet. and if he were, he wouldn't be let out as there is evidence of him at the crime scene, which he puts himself in also, and he is known to do the splits to othr countries.
-----and further evidence of AK expecting bail is this. it can take upto a year right 4 this to come to trial. again, SHE RUBS IT IN sayng how she'd like to stay longer than expected in perugia. what a bitch. she was originally meant to be back in seattle around this time----
the prison priests statement about her BIG PLAN is to SPLIT oh no wait travel all around the world is ominous---given he can't directly break the seal of the confessional. and that it was reported she asked him about catolic forgiveness...
Thanks, bpcl.
Because of my work schedule, I have not been able to read all that i would like. I appreciate the information and insight.
i believe her lawyer told her he thinks almost 100% sure that she'll be bailed. and that nuns would take her in.
whether he lied to her who knows.
but look at her goddamn statement in reaction!
says alot. she probably is 'serene', thinking of her plan to split.
or even just to remain in perugia around all of merediths friends, partying.
key statements being "i trust my lawyer / have confidence in him / he makes me feel confident"
that she's not wanting bail out of desperation since well actually she likes her prison sorority anyway & it suits her just fine.
that she will stay in perugia "I really love this place" (paraphrased) "I want to settle here".
Her statement from prison was so blithe and in such sharp contrast to the recent statement from each of meredith's parents that I feel it was extremely offensive.
If there are any nuns in that convent that are attractive or popular, they better watch their backs....
"The nuns will take her in.."
Please.
That's like MK whispering the name/initials of her killer to RG.
Course, Amanda told the priest she wanted to be a nun. I wonder what the qualification are. She didn't even know the contents of the Gospels.
"wow, Luke...wow, Mark..."
Ya know, Rob,my guess is that this house, a rental for these (transient) students, and the boys downstairs...probably is known as a party house with that kind of turnover. MKs boyfriend downstairs played in a band, maybe the band practiced, and so it goes.
yep xin. think it may have been a party house. when at uni I had to move out of a party house in a few months that I was attracted to cos i was a poor student and the rent was cheap. Naivety on merediths part? who knows. my house in uk was effectively a coke den for middle to upper middle class coked up students. In Knoxs myspace she went to the house hunting 4 a place to live and met the girls there, bonded over a spliff according to her, who said deffo to her. they had maybe one other possibility they had to 'think about' - makes me think meredith was a bit too clean for them??? maybe she did spliffs, who knows??? but that's nothing.
and finally for tonight for me:
regards rumoured call from merediths phone to her bank. what if the plan was to drain merediths account. and to split / go on the run with the money. to help them fund a split. what if AK & RHG were in phone contact afterwards, cos at some point he expected them or her to join him on the run. was he lied to. did they change their minds. were they gonna clean, get away with it, and split??
shows how gullable he was.
--the mortician taking 3 suspects to the house on the day of/ day before their arrest. if the dirty mushroom knife theory holds. what if he was looking for the mushrooms & the mushroom knife. I read an article saying how the Italian police have video footage of the mushrooms/similar mushrooms being found in RSs fridge. the knife was found at his house too.---
good night all, can't wait to see what happens tomorrow xxxxxx
a2 "Her statement from prison was so blithe and in such sharp contrast to the recent statement from each of meredith's parents that I feel it was extremely offensive"
--------------------------
I agree totally. It might have been nice (even if untrue!) for her to express some sympathy for the grief the Kerchers are going through. . . but no, she is feeling 'serene' and has a 'second mum' as one of her inmates. Talk about rubbing salt in a wound. Meredith doesn't have a mum anymore - and here Knox is mouthing off about having 2! I can only wonder what her lawyers make of her.
I mean, even the nuns are fooled by her. I guess if she was fat, ugly and spotty - the nuns might not offer to house her!
OK, sorry I do not know the exact source of this, it has a CNN dateline, and they say she stays and so does he.
(rob: now it's a villa)
CNN (story date 11/29) claims to have a leaked report from the prosecutor:
PERUGIA, Italy (CNN) -- Police investigating the killing of British student Meredith Kercher in Italy earlier this month have evidence that places two of the suspects at the crime scene, according to a prosecutor's report.
Meredith Kercher was found dead in her villa November 2 with a knife wound to her neck.
CNN has obtained a copy of the report that Perugia's chief prosecutor will present at a hearing Friday to decide if Amanda Knox, 20, Kercher's American roommate, and Knox's boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, 23, can continue to be held in custody.
In the document, Giuliano Mignini says Knox's DNA matched a blood stain found on the sink in the bathroom next to the victim's bedroom. The report also points to a footprint found by forensic police near to Kercher's body that it says belonged to Sollecito.
"a2 "Her statement from prison was so blithe and in such sharp contrast to the recent statement from each of meredith's parents that I feel it was extremely offensive"
--------------------------
I agree totally. It might have been nice (even if untrue!) for her to express some sympathy for the grief the Kerchers are going through. . . but no, she is feeling 'serene' and has a 'second mum' as one of her inmates. Talk about rubbing salt in a wound. Meredith doesn't have a mum anymore - and here Knox is mouthing off about having 2! I can only wonder what her lawyers make of her.
soozie UK | 11.29.07 - 8:56 pm |"
Totally agree soozie & a2. I'm beginning to think Knox is mentally ill. That prison interview was totally bizaare.
I'm beginning to think Knox is mentally ill. That prison interview was totally bizaare.
Emily Booth | 11.29.07 - 9:20 pm | #
This may be exactly what she's trying to portray...a little insanity, anyone??
She's a sociopath, and she is responsible for her actions.
I agree xin...and her actions are beyond sickening.
I honestly don't think Amanda is playing the crazy card, but I don't think she's dealing with a full deck either...
She seems to have the self preservation instincts of a toddler or a puppy; recognizes her own needs (the "me" stage,) but hasn't quite gotten a grasp on concepts not involving Amanda.
I find it hard to believe that she isn't lucid enough to understand the severity of this "affair," but she really does seem removed from reality.
I to,really do not know what to make of Amanda's ramblings....Doesn't sound to good...But at this point,maybe I will just play it safe,and say it may have just been the edited version....
The more we hear her speak - the more vacuous she appears. Now we have a potential 'Singing Nun' who reads, watches TV, and has 'fun' with her new roomies.
I don't think she's mentally ill - I think she's an incompassionate little monster, who's grown up insensitive to other people's pain. She has not a shred of empathy for the Kerchers - and her actions after the murder (guilty or not) were clearly those of someone not bothered at all that an acquaintance had been murdered so viciously. No grieving, no remorse, nothing.
I find it incredible that she carries on as if nothing has happened, and doesn't spare a thought for anyone else. She accused an innocent man for starters - where the hell is her conscience? And on second thoughts. . . maybe she IS mentally ill.
...I am so glad you guys are over here - my puter refused to go past 11/22 on haloscan -I was super pissed - if I refreshed it would go less and less -
so many good posts - thanx guys -
the blood on the handle/blade must be from it seeping thru where the blade and handle meet - washing would not get rid of this - actually hydrogen peroxide gets rid of blood better than bleach -
in my mind they all committed murder when they left her there to die -
hydrogen peroxide you say?......Thanks pdx-77...............just kidding...glad you found the new thread
"I don't think she's mentally ill - I think she's an incompassionate little monster, who's grown up insensitive to other people's pain. She has not a shred of empathy for the Kerchers - and her actions after the murder (guilty or not) were clearly those of someone not bothered at all that an acquaintance had been murdered so viciously. No grieving, no remorse, nothing."
sociopath is shorthand for that
@ bcpl: You are too hung up on cookies. I have written and maintained many websites over a period of a decade. First, not all websites send cookies. In fact, the vast majority don't. Second, most browsers allow the accepting of cookies to be turned off, and many innocent people have it that way, as they dislike big corporations tracking their surfing habits. Third, there are many ways of using a computer other than web surfing. Hell, until a decade ago, most people used their machines as stand-alone boxes.
But if he was surfing, you are right that the ISP records will show it.
Luke - would you say sociopaths are mentally ill? I've often wondered whether the part of the brain that 'houses' the conscience is simply damaged - so the perpetrator is physically not capable of feeling remorse for their actions? I remember watching a documentary in which violent offenders and people who had never committed a crime watched a series of gruesome images (separately from each other).
The brain activity measured for 'normal' people was huge - but for the offender, hardly a change in activity at all - suggesting they're quite desensitised to the normal reactions that make us 'human'.
On a side note, quite a thought-provoking article here from a guy talking about rough sex with his girlfriend. When you read his background, he had about as much experience as Sollecito (one previous girlfriend) - and the girl he got involved with was a Knox clone!
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/
t...icle2968706.ece
Soozie,
I was a mental health worker as a Navy Corpsman, but I am not a doctor, so I don't know how qualified I am to answer that. My understanding is that Antisocial personality disorder is categorized as a "Cluster B" personality disorder, and personality disorders are a subset of mental illness.
I've always been of the opinion that a sociopath is mentally ill, but that the illness shouldn't be compared to most of the others, with exception to psychopathy.
I think where it gets tricky is diagnosis; most mentally ill people seem to be afflicted with any number of additional illnesses (a sociopath can also have depression, anxiety, etc.)
Again, I'm not a doctor, but I do have experience in the field (as well as an extensive family history of mental illness.)
Here's a nice resource that's NOT Wikipedia..lol
http://tinyurl.com/27ql55
the laundry list..
With all the respect for the posters, I didn't read them because it's already very late for me (Portugal: 3.58 a.m.), and so I don't have a real vision on the opinions stated here. Anyway I would like to leave a small reference here about Amanda Fox. This is an unfounded commentary only based on the first impressions gathered from the published news.
I feel we are before a crime that has a long course to go through. There are too many loose ends and Amanda Fox and boyfriend being accused seems, to me, to correspond to an urgent need to find a culprit(s). As it was stated in Steve's article, only the McCann child was so, or more, under the world media scrutiny as this case. It appears obvious the need to prevent similar accusations, as were produced against a foreign country's legal system and police forces, in order to produce a sacrifice bull to the althar.
I have no ideia at all about what has happened, and even if I am the one to believe that all human beings are potential murderers, there is something in this case that rings a bell.
C.
I'll
Thank you. I hate wikipedia.
Woops...
Just had a diagonal look at the posts...
Invoking newspapers, especially UK newspapers is no way to hold an opinion. I'm sorry folks, but in Europe, British media are very low rated for credibility (it appears that anyone can write an article on whatever subject and gets payed for the amount of words rather than for he quality of the contents). Do us a favour, keep the Brit press out of this case if you want an honest discussion.
Not all newspapers in London are tabloids. In fact, The Financial Times is a very important world-class business paper, and the Telegraph and Times are also credible, some of the others may be less so, but not all.
I agree, not all UK papers are tabloid. It's silly to generalise like this - there are some papers that only report facts which have been substantiated.
For 'News' - the BBC cannot be beaten.
"I'm beginning to think Knox is mentally ill. That prison interview was totally bizaare. Emily Booth" "This may be exactly what she's trying to portray...a little insanity, anyone?? Rhonda"- with her 1st prison statement, yes. and when I read the second one, I came to the same conclusion as you, but that was because I didn't know about her lawyers plea for release.==with her recent one, no, I disagree: any cold detatched, logical sociopath would seem alien. If you read her prison thing in the context of knowing that her lawyer would have hand-picked choice statements to 'tailor' a release plea *she wants to be released *she wants to prove she's not desperate to be released cos her cell is shabby, or she doesn't get on with others in it (hence her sorority comment) *but she slipped up, if charged she doesn't like the prison for people who have committed the crime she has *but then she covers that up with the fact she has "confidence" that her lawyer will get her off, if there is any evidence, so she won't be doing a runner *this is compounded by the fact she claims to love perugia & would like to settle there(it is so calculated)-not that she's been following the evidence as it is claimed she doesn't watch or read any press on the crime(yeah right)-this also could be read as when released she won't feel so hated by press & ppl in perugia&world that she'll do a rnner *she won't talk to the press if released *she'll stay with nuns *her lawyer probably told her what ppl 'profiled' in to her family life & this was addressed...In this context it makes perfectly sane & sober, sensible, but VERY VERY cold sense. Infact, I don't think she's 'crazy' and 'living in disneyworld' at all. she actually being intelligent about it. apart from the omission of any sorrow over MKs death-cos she is NOT capable of it IMHO.==this hearing will lay all the prosecutors evidence against her so far on the table. If she thinks there IS anything that would lead to her being found guilty despite a good lawyer. she WILL do a runner imho cos she hates 'bad prison' so much.
For 'News' - the BBC cannot be beaten.
soozie UK
agreed but they tend to follow any D-notice VERY strictly (something to do with press not being allowed to talk of certain things), and this can mean that some things are not reported by them.
the blood on the handle/blade must be from it seeping thru where the blade and handle meet - washing would not get rid of this - actually hydrogen peroxide gets rid of blood better than bleach -in my mind they all committed murder when they left her there to die - pdx-77
* great post *nooks & crannies.
*wonders if RS wore glasses if he was there during the murder*
I have been following this crime in the Italian and UK press for the past three weeks and also somewhat in this voluminous blog. One observation is that not a small amount of the so called evidence being agreed upon here (the facts, time lines, "who said what and when", etc.) reported in the press have contradicted one another between different publications and even between different articles in many of the same publications. A few here have already pointed this out and I think would agree with me that this is just shoddy reporting, poor editing and in the UK case probably bad translation.
In addition several have speculated that the police may be leaking false evidence to try and trip up the suspects into making self-incriminating statements and have also leaked so called evidence speculating themselves as to its possible meaning of the suspects complicity, only then never to bring it up again. So all of us should be careful about drawing hard and fast conclusions about any of these reports that are not completely logical and firmly repeated more than once and explained to and by reporters carefully.
That said, I was wondering what others have thought about the so called Ms. X and Mr X being involved in the past three days. That evidence had arisen from reports that evidence of two other people being present at 'the scene' did not match either the three current suspects or the victim.
This was described by one group of reporters as the investigators' finding 'organic human tissue' [sic] evidence at the murder scene, without saying in MK's room or just in the flat of the four female house mates. Another group of reports stated that the evidence was human fluids found on discarded 'tissues' outside the house. This I inferred must mean human cell's DNA sufficient in quantity to identify sex and type not matching to the original four. Thus, two more people were there. But when?
Then yesterday, almost as a trivial comment in reports from two of the same publications as above, that were focusing on todays hearing, stated that the so called matching had not been completed and in fact, might match the suspects. So go figure about this reporting.
My question is, is this other posters' conclusion on these mysterious additional persons, being more bad reporting than police facts or have I missed more conclusive reports that they do have evidence of two more unidentified persons and proof that they were all there during the: "party, meal, game, crime, and whatever all the rather over speculated scenes might have occurred"; and definitely not evidence that could have been left even a day or two before Nov 1st.
I would like to offer a piece of evidence the group here have confirmed several times from published reports for the time line a poster has been maintaining for updates: that at 10:15 pm that evening police reported that a call was placed from MK's cell phone (or could it have been the other flat mate's borrowed
With regards to the interview with Amanda in Prison, which I understand was conducted in Italian, is it possible that some of her expressions/words may have got lost in translation? I find it really odd that anyone would describe themselves as feeling 'serene.'
No-one I know routinely uses the word serene to describe how they're feeling and it seems especially odd for someone of that age (if you compare to the language used in her blog, it's very different). Of course, it might all just be part of her act.
I'm looking forward to - hopefully - finding out more later on, after the hearing with the judge. I would, however, be very surprised if Amanda is let out of prison. Maybe the reality may hit her more if she doesn't get let out.
Thinkingaboutit - I agree the phonecall at 10.15 is an important "reported" event. According to reports, it was made from MK's cellphone, to a number where the caller could find out how much credit was left on the cellphone card (but various commenters here and elsewhere have suggested that the call went to her bank and could have been connected with money.. ???).
If MK did make the call, this would suggest that the attack against her came after 10.15 but before 10.30, because witnesses have claimed that a black man "ran into" them near the cottage shortly after 10.30. This scenario would actually leave very little time for the rape and murder.
My feeling is that someone else made the call at 10.15. This is pure SPECULATION, but in my view by that time MK's phones were being held by someone else - in my timeline, by RHG. As the attack on MK began, I believe RHG may have made the call as an additional way of humiliating MK. [RHG: "You want you phone back MK? Well, let me see; how much credit is there on this phone?"] As RHG was saying these words, RS began threatening with the knives, while AK patiently awaited her turn.
My thoughts on any impact of AK's mental condition and potentially serious personality disorders. She very well could be feigning insanity, suffering substantial dissociation, or just being a true sociopathic person. However, for reasons of law the definition of insane or insane at the time of the crime (including temporary insanity) has a different meaning from the definition in a clinical sense (DSM IV).
Thus, I wish to ask the question of those here who understand the factor of insanity in Italian law in capital crimes to comment on and share that concept as practiced in Italy. For comparison purposes in most states in the USA with guidance from several federal courts appeals the application of insanity defense requires that the defendant was, at the time of the crime, incapable of knowing or determining whether her/his actions were right or wrong.
A person who is psychotic/delusional is most likely to be in this mental state of not knowing right from wrong actions. However, classic sociopathic persons are usually well aware of the difference between society's meaning of right or wrong. Their mental state and actions rest on their brains inability to feel any guilt or remorse for their actions, or any ethics and morality of what is acceptable and legal behavior in society. In fact, they believe that their actions are in fact the "right" ones for the very reason that they lack those qualitative functions in their own brains and resulting personalities. In fact it is more like only they exist and everyone else is merely just a reflection of themselves and not really an "other" like themselves.
So I definitely agree with the poster[s] that state: if she did it and if she is a clinically diagnosed sociopath, she is still responsible for her crimes in the eye of society's law.
Loz - You're right about the word "serene". It's probably an all too literal translation of the Italian word "serena" - which also means "calm". I think AK probably meant she was feeling calm.
I meant Liz, not Loz - Apologies.
@AndyT:
Yes, agreed. Thanks for your reply. Sorry I guess I cut off some of my post there but I do not see a limit and a counter on the number characters for a single post.
Anyway you continued my very thoughts. Was this also the so called call to MK's bank. After reading your reply post I think it might have been. Again a reporting flaw as you imply. Call the carrier for account balance on the phone.....means call her bank for the balance.....meaning what her flatmate was reported to have said when she loaned MK her own phone. "That's MK phone was out of credit for calls".
I also would have to go with your conclusion that the actual stabbing had to have occurred before say 10:00 PM for them to realized she was dead or dying, and what to do as next steps. The RG persons runs, the thinking persons think fast. Make a call, make it appear that MK is alive at that time. Perhaps they tried another number and found there was no credit left and thus the call diverted to the customer service function to say: "sorry you have no available minutes to complete this call". But then if that was their cover up logic why not place a call on the borrowed phone? Perhaps, that wouldn't have covered anything for them if they did not realize why MK had the other phone or even who the other phone belonged to. But I'll wait for the trial for the actual time line of these events.
Thanks for filling in the gap here.
And now there's mention of a white car - could it belong to the mystery couple?
"Police are investigating his claim [RHG] that a small white car was stopped outside the house at the time of the murder.
A similar car was caught by closed circuit television cameras leaving the car park opposite the house later on in the night."
From:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith130.xml
Both RS and AK have proclaimed their innocence in front of the judges today. AK says she was not in the house.
They arrived seperately and will not see or meet each other inside. AK appeared to be "calm and smiling", RS also seemed calm, wearing a suit. AKs meeting with the judges lasted about 2 hours.
AKs lawyers say AKs and Meredith's DNA both being on the knife can be explained as resulting from the girls using the knife on seperate occasions. They also claim that the murderer of Meredith must have been a 'robust' man working along, strangling her.
RS' lawyers still say he never left his house that night and claim they will prove the computer alibi. Also again that the bloody footstep doesn't correspond to RS' shoes and that the knife was not the murder weapon.
The Tribunal will make its decisions about their custody before midnight, tonight.
sorry, forgot to add the link to my source for my previous post.
http://www.lastampa.it/
redazione...28031girata.asp
so if MK & AK used th knife on seperat occassions. so it was their knife. why was it at RSs house?
he has enough knives of his own.
it's the murder knife, I speculate it's RS's knife.
video panel on here has the news of todays judgement
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
...anel_index.html
Yes Loz, the knife is supposed to have been taken from RS's place to AK's place and then back again on the day/night of the murder (coz other residents of AK's house stated to LE that they'd never seen it before). If I recall correctly, RS's lawyers have argued (according to reports) that MK visited RS's place with AK several times before the night of the murder (this explaining her dna on the knife). LE, however, maintain that MK never went to RS's place.
I think the knife may prove to be THE incriminating piece of evidence - as long as LE can prove that MK never visited RS's place. Fortunately, MK kept a diary, so this may be easy for LE to ascertain.
The knife incriminates AK forensically and RS locationally. RS's lawyers seem very concerned about this knife; they've also been claiming that MK's dna was found on the handle rather than on the tip - i.e. that she must have been at RS's place previously or she must have cut up the mushrooms or something...
I'm curious to see what RS's lawyers will be claiming next. We should pay attention to this, because, as Damian has pointed out, "Team RS" have employed a very crafty medical expert witness.
"I would like to offer a piece of evidence the group here have confirmed several times from published reports for the time line a poster has been maintaining for updates: that at 10:15 pm that evening police reported that a call was placed from MK's cell phone (or could it have been the other flat mate's borrowed"
It's quite possible that this call could have been made by one of the killers as part of the premeditation, if it was premeditated. I don't think they would have the mental capacity to use the phone as part of a cover up, if the death was accidental. (especially when you consider all of the other oversights that were made.)
It is my understanding that Rafe's and Amanda's defensive teams strategy is to place all of the onus on Rudy.
I still doubt that either will implicate themselves this early on. Maybe if they are ruled to stay in prison for a year, one of them will crack.
Did she really "break down" in court or were those crocodile tears?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith230.xml Yes Luke....Maybe she cracked....reality hitting hard now I think...
The tricky part is deciding whether she is sorry for her actions or just sorry that she got caught.
This isn't particularly good...
http://tinyurl.com/39mfr9
BERLIN (Reuters) - German authorities are delaying the extradition of a man suspected of being involved in the brutal murder of British student Meredith Kercher until they receive more information from Italy, prosecutors said on Friday.
Rudy is smarter than a lot of people think....
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/
video...mandas.cell.cnn Animated look at what Amandas prison cell looks like...
I'm getting tired of hearing how pretty and sweet her smile is...I haven't heard anyone talk about how handsome and sweet Raffaele's or Hermann's smile is.
This girl definitely knows how to work her audience.
Patrick called her the "ultimate actress."
Anty T said: "Yes Loz, the knife is supposed to have been taken from RS's place to AK's place and then back again on the day/night of the murder (coz other residents of AK's house stated to LE that they'd never seen it before)."
---
yes IMHO, the mushroom knife was the murder weapon, I agree. IMHO It was his mushroom knife. and I can only think that it was returned to RS house because it was part of a 'set' and that he/they thought it would have been conspicuous in it's absence.
--the mortician taking 3 suspects to the house on the day of/ day before their arrest. if the dirty mushroom knife theory holds. what if he was looking for the mushrooms & the mushroom knife. I read an article saying how the Italian police have video footage of the mushrooms/similar mushrooms being found in RSs fridge. the knife was found at his house too.--- continued...
I don't think there was premeditation in the death of Meredith, but something went very awry in that house, and the suspects were left with trying to cover it up. Their puny, drug-addled, self-involved brains could only do so much to obscure the evidence. As I stated earlier, if neither AK nor RS were there when Meredith died, one consistent true story would have emerged about their whereabouts. Like PL's story of innocence--proven to be true.
Everything--phone records, computer usage, DNA--tells a story, and I'm sure that ILE are not sharing all they know. All the questions we ask here will have been answered in the investigation--about the mushrooms (did Meredith eat some or was a mushroom planted in her throat); where the 10:00 pm phone call went to and from which phone (bank or cell service provider, Meredith's personal phone or that of her roommate); what kind of washer the apt has; whose blood, etc., was found in the apt downstairs; verified whereabouts of Meredith's other roommates and her boyfriend and his roommates; etc.
ILE will know, to a large extent, when a suspect's statements diverge from the physical evidence.
As to RS's claim of computer use the night of Meredith's death, a forensic computer analysis will show far beyond what the average user is able to ferret out of a machine. It can show in-depth history of use and recreate deleted files, show attempts to erase, add, or edit timestamps and files--answers that will show proof of how the computer was actually used, or not used, as the case may be. Cookies and the like are only an eensy tip of the iceberg when it comes to establishing computer usage.
And again, the fact that Meredith's family has faith that ILE are doing a proper investigation gives me much hope her murderers will be brought to justice.
cont...a musroom was said to be found in MKs esophagus...
The esophagus, a narrow, muscular tube about 20 centimeters (8 inches) long...[B]It takes only seconds for food to pass through the esophagus, and little digestion actually takes place.[/B]
--so, the kitchen knife had a mushroom stuck to it / on it.---
she could have had the meal which explains the mozzerella...then after a stray mushroom stuck to the knife, she was stabbed, the mushroom entered her esophagus directly through her wound. Unless they put the knife in her mouth first.-----
***I think RS laywers said the wound was too big to be that knife. however, if they wiggled the knife about, kind of explains how a musroom or piece of could have ended up in there, rather than just on the outside of her neck**** another plausable & more likely explanation as Xin said was MK regurgitated.
""On Sunday [[1st sunday after the murder before arrest]] evening her housemates — two Italians and an American — were taken back to the cottage. Dr Lalli said this was because of “interesting elements” in his post-mortem examination, but would not elaborate."" from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2811736.ece
NANA said "don't think there was premeditation in the death of Meredith"
the mushroom knife being used seems to confirm this.
however, maybe mks bank was phoned to fund a split tey were planning. why at no point did they stop? - maybe this is too far fetched.
was rhg in trouble with bigger fish in the drug world, and AK had to pay him?
MK wasn't just stabbed once, she was violently attacked. unless the broken hyroid [sic] was from post-mortem in possible moving of her body.
yep, using mushroom knife looks like impulsive action. the pen-knife wounds do not & they contradict this. and these wounds also mean that not JUST one person was going to murder her IMHO. uness she was threatened for money with the pen knife?
Tears now? (lawyer to AK: Gee, AK, it would look really good for the court if you would cry when asserting your innocence in this matter.) "I confirm I am innocent. I am sorry for [accusing] Patrick and for the whole situation," she said.
Where's the to-the-point "I'm sorry Meredith was killed-is dead-was murdered" statement? She just cannot seem to say it, can she?
Everyone is sorry for the whole situation, and I don't need to hear it from her. What a piece of work.
IF she is innocent (and I obviously don't believe she is), then let's hear where she was, who she was with, when she ate, what she ate, all of it. She cannot do it.
"Professor Carlo Torre, Knox's forensic expert, said the knife is too large to be compatible with the wound and that the DNA evidence is uncertain."
ah, sorry, so smaller wound, larger Knife. Murders the mushroom knife theory.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith230.xml
wonder if RHG had dealer friends there that night. and they threatened all of them, or RS & AK said 'she's got money / RHG is her dealer'?
why are they NOT coming forward with the truth of that night. both rs & ak can get 'protection'. and why no words for meredith?
Lots of thoughts this morning.
Regarding the strength needed to strangle someone or break the hyoid (?) bone in the throat: I have a daughter who has very strong hands and fingers, and I think she could do great bodily harm to another girl if she wanted to. She has brought tears to my eyes when massaging a stress point in my back, and her grip could leave bruises, I'm sure.
A comment, too, about rock climbing: A climbing instructor once told me that the trick to climbing was to use the legs, and not the upper body. I have an overweight friend who made a successful climb, and she had no upper-body strength to speak of, but her legs were in good shape from walking a lot.
AK could have hands and fingers that are like my daughter's--overly strong for her size and weight--and coupled with a strong determination to harm, I think AK could very well have been the one to strangle/break the hyoid bone in Meredith.
are they protecting MKs image?
Lots of thoughts this morning.
Regarding the strength needed to strangle someone or break the hyoid (?) bone in the throat: I have a daughter who has very strong hands and fingers, and I think she could do great bodily harm to another girl if she wanted to. She has brought tears to my eyes when massaging a stress point in my back, and her grip could leave bruises, I'm sure.
A comment, too, about rock climbing: A climbing instructor once told me that the trick to climbing was to use the legs, and not the upper body. I have an overweight friend who made a successful climb, and she had no upper-body strength to speak of, but her legs were in good shape from walking a lot.
AK could have hands and fingers that are like my daughter's--overly strong for her size and weight--and coupled with a strong determination to harm, I think AK could very well have been the one to strangle/break the hyoid bone in Meredith.
Nana | 11.30.07 - 11:28 am | #
------
agreed, and if you add further physics like AK pushing MK to the wall or floor while her hand was on her neck, or using two thumbs as an intense pressure point...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ne...ime'/
article.do couple of shitty pictures of the 2 suspects arriving at court....Just heard on the local news(TV)...that Amanda was denied release...Nothing on RS yet
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Intern...tory?
id=3935113 ABC news confirms...Amanda still to be held......Who what a thought
The house in which Meredith lived in Perugia
PERUGIA - The court of review has rejected the request for release by Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge. Remain in prison former boyfriend accused the death Meredith Kercher. This morning both had proclaimed their innocence but for the pm, the picture has not changed accusatory: "The evening and night between 1 and 2 November, the two former boyfriends were in the house of horrors where they played an active and they tried to erase the traces evidence. " For the prosecutor, the two detainees were rimenere in prison because higher the risk of leakage or contamination of evidence.
Google translation La Repubblica 11/30/07
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...-
tribunale.html
sky news, in reporting on the verdict:
American Amanda Knox and EX-BOYFRIEND Raffaele Sollecito
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1295082,00.html
chris was like:
> Luke, not like you can have faith in leaked reports, but they do say that sex > between rudy and meredith happened before sex.
But how can you be sure the sex didn't happen after sex?
are they REALLY to remain in prison, or are they going to be shielded away from the world in 'safe-houses'?
sex before sex... the case gets more confusing by the second.
I wonder if Amanda didn't spill the beans on Rudy because they were afraid of Rudy and all his drug friends. Also their drug supplies would dry up pretty quick. Nobody would deal with them anymore. Plus they would have to constantly watch their back. See no evil, hear no evil {with your hands over their ears).
just noticed dna on the knife was said to be 'labile' - does this mean 'sticky'/'runny'?
But DWL, why did they then stage the break-in? And what about the blood they smeared downstairs? Was this all to cover up for Rudy, so they still had their drug supply?
Or are you suggesting Rudy, acting on his own, cleaned the whole flat with bleach and staged the break-in?
DLW - maybe who knows.
but I still think they planned to 'assasinate' her.
Plus, they would have at least
* called an ambulance for MK,
* wouldn't have shopped for underwear the day after
* would have expressed more 'shock' and 'sorrow' and had more 'kind words' for meredith.
------------
I guess the judge said he'll give reasons why they are to remain beind bars in the coming days. we may be able to build more of a picture.
But DWL, why did they then stage the break-in? And what about the blood they smeared downstairs? Was this all to cover up for Rudy, so they still had their drug supply?
Or are you suggesting Rudy, acting on his own, cleaned the whole flat with bleach and staged the break-in?
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 12:30 pm | #
no, what if it was a drug gang somone owed money to & RHG had lead his superiors to the house?
still, as posted just above, I believe they (AK & RS) were "too cool" afterwards to have been distressed by the murder.
Luke: "The tricky part is deciding whether she is sorry for her actions or just sorry that she got caught"
Cynical though it sounds - I think she's just teed off that she got caught and not sorry about her actions at all. I think her lack of remorse immediately after the event (and since) has portrayed perfectly well the kind of person she is.
Anyway, she has all these new 'friends' in prison now, plus the Priest is quite taken with her and the nuns want to house her - I think the right decision was made to keep them both inside. Someone knows something, that much is obvious - and until someone actually starts telling the truth as it happened - and not as it happened in their 'dreams' - prison is the only place for them.
Did anyone read that Guede accused Knox of stealing money of Meredith for drugs on the same day she was murdered? Sorry if that's 'old news' now - but I was very surprised he brought it up seeing as how she hasn't mentioned him at all.
Also, I think Knox has probably been able to talk her way out of trouble all her life. She was 'looking forward' to speaking to the judge and clearing her name. I think she automatically expected that by this evening, she'd be in the nunnery with her guitar and some books!
How she thought the judge would buy her ludicrous story is yet another example of how deluded she is.
She said she was 'sorry' about Patrick - but she was over eager to tell the Police that she 'covered her ears' while Patrick murdered Meredith. No matter what kind of stress anyone is under during a police interview - it is not 'normal' behaviour to accuse an innocent person. Do you think she gives a damn about what she did to him? Of course not. If she was involved in this horribe murder and cover up - then accusing Patrick would mean nothing to her in the great scheme of things.
---------------------------
No theories here. Just a comment about AK's personality. She reminds me A LOT of my first college roommate who was attractive and smart, but a pathological liar and used her lies as well as a purported fondness for sex as her tools to attract attention and (perhaps more importantly) pull attention away from anyone else in the vicinity. She had everything going for her except a personality flaw that made her use those attributes to force and fake relationships instead of just have real ones.
She had multiple personalities. Not in a "mental illness" way, but in a very calculated way to maximize the attention she could get from whomever she had in her sights at the moment. She turned herself into whoever she thought the other person would be bowled over by. I'm still amazed that she had the smarts to pull it off, but that she used those smarts for such a poor purpose.
She had a rotating cast of men and would often have sex with them without worrying whether I was in the room or not (and it's not like colleg freshman guys ever cared!). Sex always struck me as the ultimate power play for her. She had them completely under her spell and the 24-36 hours of undivided attention before she moved on to the next guy seemed to feed her.
I eventually had to ask to be placed with a new roommate. Not long after that, she took up with a foreign student. He was from Greece and his family was reported to be quite wealthy. My impression was that she had found someone who helped make her look more important and was very unlikely to figure out all of her past lies -- he would be easy to manipulate.
I never got to know her well enough to know why she was like this. I do believe that she didn't like herself at all. She didn't like who she was, and all she knew how to do was "use" what she was to feel better for a few days at a time.
I would never have thought her capable of violence, but I do believe that if the guy she was working hardest on at the time had expressed fantasies, etc., she would do her best to make it seem like she not only shared those interests but she was interested at a level that he found aspirational.
Luke "Rudy is smarter than a lot of people think...."
Do you really think so? I think he's as dumb as the rest of them, dumber even. He had several days on the run to come up with a plausible excuse for where he was that night - what he did etc - and what does he come up with? First, he says he wasn't at the house. . . then he WAS at the house, but didn't have sex with Meredith - then he WAS at the house and DID have sex with Meredith, but unfortunately, while he was having a crap in the toilet while listening to his iPod - a mystery assassin slashed Meredith's throat - and after a brief struggle with the 'murderer', they both fled.
We don't know where the 'mystery man' went - but we know Guede went dancing after Meredith was murdered. How dumb are ALL his actions and ALL his words. I'm beginning to think this trio don't even share an entire brain cell.
Someone yesterday (Loz?) said, "What if she is released?" No one responded. I was horrified at the idea. But then I read about the prosecutor in another case, jailing a journalist investigating the Monster of Florence crimes. The prosecutor sounds like a real cowboy, so I figured, few escape his clutches, and he sounds smart.
MK cell call at 10:15> maybe this was part of an attempt to threaten MK to withdraw money, and the early injuries ahd to do with getting her to give up more money. This sounds to me like the actions of a street thug.
Mushroom: I still think she vomited.
We should have more and more come out on this hearing to consider and evaluate. It may be starting to sink in to Amanda that this is not a lark (a lively little adventure). Her family must be freaked out. Her defense (and their support, as in another home in Perugia for a while) could/will take everything they have.
[The ubiquitous ("everywhere", all over the place: you-bik-quit-us; this is a great word)) white car. Aren't we still looking for a white car from the car accident that killed Prin Diana?]
Nice to see some new faces here.
Blood was all over the walls because Rudy kept playing in it. I'm not sure if it didnt seep through the floor joints. Meredith may have thought about getting Amanda evicted. Anything not nailed, bolted, or glued down was ending up missing. Amanda just didn't care what happened to her.
I don't have a grand theory on the cover up yet, doesn't add up other than they may have thought thought they were going to be implicated if they didn't cover their own tracks.
If they would have thrown away the knife's, shoes, if Amanda had taken a different route there, and if the cops didn't come so soon. There would be lot less direct evidence on them.
chris was like:
> Luke, not like you can have faith in leaked reports, but they do say that sex > between rudy and meredith happened before sex.
But how can you be sure the sex didn't happen after sex?
todger | Homepage | 11.30.07 - 12:19 pm | #
LOL--Sorry meant to say sex before death!!!
"Professor Carlo Torre, Knox's forensic expert, said the knife is too large"...
Loz | 11.30.07 - 11:21 am | #
The very first report on this crime in English (I've misplaced this page, but will find it) says the weapon used was [probably] a knife, or a screwdriver. I recall that this story was before MK was identifed. That must have been one ugly and painful cut, but distinguished in its wound.
xin - I also remember reading from the intitial 'leaks' that a piece of glass could have been the murder weapon. Police mentioned a screwdriver or glass.
thanks sooz, (and for defending the BBC), at any rate, that wound was messy and UGLY.
Luke,
AK's comments before the Judge were:
"I'm sorry about Patrick. I'm sorry about the whole situation. I'm innocent. I was at Raffaele's house."
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?
Looks like one of Amanda's cellmates braided her hair.
Sounds like RS showed up in a suit, but Amanda wore *steet clothes* making me think her mother didn't take care of her once again. Inappropriate, disrespectful attire. Not smart in Italy. Mom should know one must dress for success (as RS did, he is distinguished from AK in as many ways possible). I mean, Italy, of all places. Poor Amanda. No one to show her the way.
BY the way, we haven't heard much from Papa Sollecito lately. Maybe the gravity of the situation is occurring to him at the same time Amanda is beginning to face her future.
the whole 'situation' as in, this mess she's in. Because it's all about her. Meredith who?
>
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?<
AN expansive word, it bundles AKs behavior in with the death of MK, the lying, the crime.
I can't wait to see my niece next weekend. She is a PhD forensic psychologist, works with big baddies in a prison setting.
I'm going to print stuff out for her. Maybe I should ask her to do a drop-in Q & A.
Minneapolis commenting about roommate "I would never have thought her capable of violence, but I do believe that if the guy she was working hardest on at the time had expressed fantasies, etc., she would do her best to make it seem like she not only shared those interests but she was interested at a level that he found aspirational."
I know what you're alluding to, and it could well be what happened to AK.
Basically, she met a rich young Italian guy who's into wild, sadistic sex and has an obsession with knives. She just combined the two...
Thank you Minneapolis.
When I asked Luke about AK's use of the word 'situation,' I was rhetorically asking whether or not AK was admitting that she was the chief instigator of the the 'party'(sex, drugs and rock & roll) held there that night at the cottage. Obviously, she is knee-deep in the 'situation' now, and though many might think her teary-eyed speech was a put on, I think she is coming, albeit slowly(given her sociopathic nature)to grips with the fact that she is not leaving prison anytime soon.
xin, that would be interesting, if not the Q & A...just her opinion on AK's behavior. Has she followed this case at all?
Bpcl I agree, and I think AK's comment in her scrawl that Perugia is the place for her, is another sign that she is (subconsciously) coming to terms with her (present and future) predicament.
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...-
tribunale.html
Amanda told to her mother "that night I was in the there".
police recorded conversation of Amanda and her mother.
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?<
AN expansive word, it bundles AKs behavior in with the death of MK, the lying, the crime.
I can't wait to see my niece next weekend. She is a PhD forensic psychologist, works with big baddies in a prison setting.
I'm going to print stuff out for her. Maybe I should ask her to do a drop-in Q & A.
xin | 11.30.07 - 2:34 pm | #
Xin that'd be great if she can!
thanks for elaborating on the wound & possible weapons that caused it.
Hi... Does anyone else think that Raeffele looks like Harry Potter? Hehe!
Good idea for your niece to drop in for Q&A, Id be interested to see her take on this...
I can't find info about anyone stating there was a party... did Rudy say that? Just wondering.. and Sorry if I missed this somewhere, I tried to go back over all of the posts and couldn't find it.. But then again, I am at work.. and really should be working
Amanda's lawyer says she meant she was in Sollecito's house.
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...-
tribunale.html
Francesco, excellent find!
so, meredith had her own washbasin, in her room, on which AKs blood should not have been. and there was also a 'trail' of blood on a shared bidet.
and rhg says he, ak & rs were having group sex, an then ak instigated the attempted attack on mk.
i'm feeling 'visionary' :S
The arrival of urge
In court
PERUGIA - The court of review has rejected the request for release by Amanda Knox and Raffaele urge. Remain in prison former boyfriend accused the death Meredith Kercher. This morning both had proclaimed their innocence but for the pm, the picture has not changed accusatory: "The evening and night between 1 and 2 November, the two former boyfriends were in the house of horrors where they played an active and they tried to erase the traces evidence. " According to the prosecutor's arguments, upheld by the courts of review, the two detainees must rimenere in prison because higher the risk of leakage or contamination of evidence.
Against Amanda check un'intercettaziione environmental recorded during a colloquo in prison with his mother. In the interview, the student in Seattle would support inter alia: "That night I was there". It talks of shopping once again free. According to the hypothesis accusatoria the words of the girl would be an admission of his presence in the house of the crime but lawyers offer a different interpretation of the phrase: "Amanda was referring to the home of Raffaele urge not to Meredith. But then traces of his DNA and that of Meredith observed a kitchen knife point in the index against Amanda, and a spot of blood on the sink's tap of the victim, even if the college defensive dell'americana believes that the track the knife is labile''and''over there just by chance.
Against Raffaele weighs instead of a signature shoe found near the corpse of Meredith (s defenders argue that the imprint of tennis shoe is not compatible with those of graduate Bari), the expertise of the police post did not find confirmation use Computer Raffaele night in evidence (expert opposite was presented by the College defensive), and receipts that show the purchase of some bottles of bleach used, as the charge, to erase the stains of blood. "All false," said Raffaele the courts. "I am innocent". And then he repeated: "That night I was at home working on my computer.
"I am innocent," he repeated today also Amanda Knox judges to the court. "That night was not in the house at Meredith. Me is very sorry for Patrick and for the whole situation." The reference is Patrick Lumumba, the Congolese musician that the American student, at first, had accused the death Meredith but that the judges have released two weeks later for lack of evidence.
"I confirm what I wrote in the memorial," said Amanda. "I am innocent, not c'entro with the assassination of the first November. Return I freely. The girl had entered a palace of justice around nine and a half and had left the court room two and a half hours later. His lawyers had appeared satisfied. "We explained our conviction about the lack of evidence against the girl," said the lawyer Luciano Ghirga. "Now we await the filing of the reasons that happen in the next few days", concluded lawyers.
The two ex-boyfriend, although sitting in ad
umm, yeah that's what it says when you hit "translate page into English" not very complete, right?
Jenny:
You'll want to read the news articles contained in the posts, or go to UK pubs and search to get a collection of links. Harry P similarities noted early-on (you can find a nice list of uk pubs at
http://www.drudgereport.com
Scroll down, and the list of UK daily papers is bottom left.. I'm afraid most of us here are unable to go backwards, there is just TMI (too much information) and we've been adjusting for updates as we go. (Drudge is best source for Cali earthquake info too).
The original thread has some real brilliancy in it, but it has become unwieldly which is why everyone is moving over here. [Some posters don't have enough memory in their machines to load the whole thing.]
Old thread:
http://tinyurl.com/2cp4ph
(def worth a skim-read; gigantic)
Then should you become braver (if you are not fluent in Italian) you can go to the Italian papers and use the rough but adequate Google translator to decipher. You can collect links to those here. Italian tv is very visual,so even stuck in English, you see great footage, and will understand much of it.
The more you know the more you will be able to add! AndyT has started a timeline, above.
Some of this you already know, I'm sure, but thought I'd bundle up a message for newer sleuths.
••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Meredith Rest in Peace
"translate page into English" not very complete, right?
belle | 11.30.07 - 3:34 pm |
It helps if you know a little Italian.
BUT mainly: no he/she, it's all "it or he."
Sollecito means "prompt or urge."
Mentally, rearrange the sentence clauses.
(My college Italian is slowly improving, reading the newspaper and trans helps with vocab and patterns of speech.)
Thank you! I have a pretty firm grip on all of the events as they have unfolded... and I appreciate your help... I started reading about 2 weeks go, so I was on the old thread ... But somewhere I missed the article where someone said that there was a "party" at the flat that night... Try as I may, I havent been able to find out who said that... But thank you
Ah...the bleach receipts found at RSs place came up at his hearing, according to Reppublica article above, so these are still evidence.
"Party" comes up in many of the articles appearing since they caught Rudy. Used a lot in those more recent accounts.
"Party": also coincides with the giallo couple since there may be 6 people in the room, and they ate.
Correire.it
"The Courier" has an English edition, this is a good paper.
They say Patrick was also called in today.
http://tinyurl.com/3cp2oj
(I'm sorry to be dripping in info, but maybe it will save some of us time after work...or in a rush)
Here's the Correire (English edition) current article:
Italy Police Question 3 Over
Uk Student's Murder
Meredith Kercher, 21, was found in her bedroom hidden under a duvet and semi-naked with a deep cut to the throat
ROME - Italian poliche brought three people in for questioning on tuesday over the brutal murder of an english student in the University town of Perugia last week, including the girl's American flatmate.
Meredith Kercher, 21, was found in her bedroom on Friday -- which was locked from the inside -- hidden under a duvet and semi-naked with a deep cut to the throat. The murder has resonated around Europe where thousands of young people take a year away from their home university to study abroad under the Erasmus exchange scheme.
Her parents were due to arrive in Perugia, central Italy, later on Tuesday. Police questioned Kercher's female flatmate -- a 20-year-old American who is studying Italian at Perugia -- as well as two men: the American's 24-year-old Italian student boyfriend and a 37-year-old Congolese man who runs a shop in the town, police chief Arturo De Felice told Reuters by telephone.
Interior Minister Giuliano Amato told a news conference: «It's an ugly story in which people which this girl had in her home, friends, tried to force her into relations which she didn't want». The three have not been charged or formally arrested.
Although an autopsy found no evidence of rape, De Felice said there were reasons to suspect a sexual assault. «A sexual motive is probable,» he said. Kercher was in her third year at Leeds University.
(Reuters- Reporting by Antonella Cinelli; Writing by Liz Rusbridger; Editing by Caroline Drees)
ahhh.. I get it.. I think So it wasn't a party per se... as I would think of a party... in Italy they just say party as in more than 3 people... okay gotcha...
OOOPPPPSSSS STOP: IS old article. Sorry, it appears the new date on
the masthead, with an older article.
but we can navigate to find newer stuff.
Jenny,
I believe that RGH was the first one to say that he attended a party at the cottage that night. Now why is a drug pusher going to show up, on a holiday weekend at the cottage. RGH has also stated that he arrived there at 8:38 pm in the evening.(How is that for being fashionably early?) Another figure, a female is seen entering the premises about 8 minutes later, according to the timeline now being constructed by AndyT here.
Many people here believe that the female figure caught on CCTV at 8:46 pm,(wearing light clothing) is AK. It has yet to be proven, however there is good circumstantial evidence pointing to the fact that RS was also in the cottage that evening(A bloody shoeprint has been found with the same irregularity as his). The Police have stated that the DNA of at least two other persons(referred here as Mr. X and Ms. X) were also in attendance. RGH has stated, and DNA has proven that he had sex with Meredith. He has said it was consensual, however, I would never believe that a majority of women, including Meredith, would consent to sexual contact while their bodies are menstruating.
Both AK and RS were habitual drug users as well as thrill giving sex addicts. I cannot speak for the behavioral patterns of mysterious couple as of yet. All of these facts would lead me to believe that this was a planned party(most students were out of town due to the holiday, Meredith would be leaving the following day for her Mother's birthday) about sex and drugs(The sole reason for which RGH was invited.)
Thank you SO much bpcl. That was so nice of you to write all of that out for me. I feel bad
I am right there with you as to how all of the events unfolded... I have a pretty good understanding of all of the news reports... It was just the word party that threw me off...
Thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to do that!!
I just can't wait until all of the story is revealed... I'm dying to see a transcript of Rudy's statement to police... that should be interesting. Its frustrating that we are getting bits a pieces of it...
Andy T
"Basically, she met a rich young Italian guy who's into wild, sadistic sex and has an obsession with knives"
I heard that Knox was only Sollecito's second girlfriend - so while he might have had an obsession with knives, it would have been Knox who was into 'wild sadistic sex'. There's been nothing at all reported about Sollecito's sex life to indicate he had a wild love life. And I'm sure if there'd been something to 'leak' - we'd have heard about it by now.
Oh, I've just seen another person - bpcl - also mentioned: "Both AK and RS were habitual drug users as well as THRILL GIVING SEX ADDICTS"
Has someone read more about Sollecito's sex life than we've seen in the UK papers? I can't find any reference to the fact his sex life was either sadistic or habitually violent. Does anyone have a link to these references as I've clearly missed some information here. Thanks
xin YES! please ask her. While a host of posters have expertise (seattleite is a lawyer but not in crimlaw, while i work the history/literature angle, dabbling in Myth & Jung), she has up-to-date, study-based working knowledge. But don't wear out your welcome with her! Just give the simple outlines & some of the satements (noting the translation issues), and tell us what she thinks.
General Note to relatively new posters. A LOT of information is over at the original thread along with links to still available newspaper (both UK & Italian, thanks middie et al). PLEASE take the time, say AFTER work, to review stuff there: the Harry Potter idea got well worked over, quite seriously given Amanda's blogged fixation on the "hero". Also, there's background on her family but we await a feature article from an intrepid Seattle P-I reporter on her & her family.
continued
Tape 'puts Knox at Meredith murder scene'
By Malcolm Moore in Perugia
Last Updated: 8:42pm GMT 30/11/2007
Dramatic evidence has emerged linking the American woman accused of murdering Meredith Kercher to the scene of the crime, according to Italian police.
Meredith suspects refused bailadvertisement
Amanda Knox was secretly recorded talking to her parents while in prison. Their conversation suggests the 20-year-old was present when her British flatmate was killed, it is claimed.
The new allegation was revealed as Knox broke down in tears when she appeared before a court and pleaded her innocence.
Miss Kercher, 21, was found with her throat cut in the house she shared with Knox in the Italian city of Perugia a month ago. Police believe she had been subjected to an "extreme" sex game before being killed.
A police source said last night: "From the bugged recording it is possible to understand that she [Knox] was in the house. She denies everything, but we did submit this evidence today."
...Both suspect's legal teams tried to pin the blame for the killing on Rudy Hermann Guede, 20, from the Ivory Coast. Guede fled Italy in the wake of the murder and was arrested last week in Germany.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith101.xml
The Telegraph UK 11/30/07
This last bit may be the necessary push Rudy to start talking about others' involvement??
Sounds like RS was a conservative loaner with serious obsessions (knives, onscreen violence) [early loss of mother], and then, bingo, it all changed with AK.
This is NEWS to me:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith101.xml
Knox admitted to her mother she WAS at the house during a taped conversation.
[OK, RM: I'll see if Dr. C is following this case, otherwise hit her with some print, I'll call her tonight. I'm a lit person too and looking forward to your next analysis. Dr. C, young and brilliant]
AH: secret tapes. Moms and Mandy didn't think of that (nor the plant in the cell)
Secret tapes sounds like her lawyer is asleep at the wheel even if he signed on later...and no warning against the journal.
Time for the understatement: AK is F.U.C.K.E.D.
bpcl: It has been established that Meredith wasn't leaving for England until the next Friday, December 9.
That information about the "mushroom" knife not being the murder weapon came from Knox's "forensic expert," not the police, so I would expect such a pronouncement from her defense team.
I don't think that AK's mother wasn't taking care of her by allowing her to appear in court so informally. AK's legal team must have known exactly what she would wear, so I'm guessing it was their idea to present her as a young, plain student instead of a vixen in finery wearing makeup.
Thank you xin, I actually did use the Google translator before on the Italian article and just found it funny that someone posted the exact translation here.
My Italian is actually pretty good, I live in Milan, but I use the translator to see what gets lost. Maybe next time I'll help out with a little editing
BTW, I've read a lot about "Foxy Knoxy" but haven't been able to find anything about AK on Myspace. Perhaps it's been removed. If anyone has a link to her earlier blog, or could paraphrase it here, I'd be interested to hear more about who this girl used to be.
Thx!
Time for the understatement: AK is F.U.C.K.E.D.
xin | 11.30.07 - 5:02 pm | #
OOPS....Who would have thought...Tapping my phone calls from prison??? LOL
Soozie re "Basically, she met a rich young Italian guy who's into wild, sadistic sex and has an obsession with knives"
I meant that as a hypothesis, following on from Minneapolis's account of a roommate (who had a tendency to fulfil her bf's fantasies). Until now we've assumed AK was the driving force, Minneapolis's illustration showed that there is an alternative...
Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
Thank you xin, I actually did use the Google translator before on the Italian article and just found it funny that someone posted the exact translation here.
My Italian is actually pretty good, I live in Milan, but I use the translator to see what gets lost. Maybe next time I'll help out with a little editing
BTW, I've read a lot about "Foxy Knoxy" but haven't been able to find anything about AK on Myspace. Perhaps it's been removed. If anyone has a link to her earlier blog, or could paraphrase it here, I'd be interested to hear more about who this girl used to be.
Thx!
belle | 11.30.07 - 5:04 pm | #
The help with editing or translating would be great, Belle...Steve has a mirror on the original blog of her My Space page.
continued
WHAT MAY BE HAPPENING:
One of the reasons for Amanda's reference to second mother is that, indeed, her mother has returned to Seattle where she is an (elementary level) teacher.
However, her father remains, staying just outside of Perugia. THAT today we saw references to her defense expert making explicit rebuttals to the physical evidence strongly suggests that her Macy's VP - MBA trained father has grasped the situation's true nature, and is working very closely with the lawyer's in pre-positioning for the trial. Amanda is not pleased, but the lawyer's said they are pleased, which means that IN THE REPORT SUBMITTED by the investigators to the 3 judge panel: There was NO NEW evidence submitted. I argue this because CNN reports having obtained a copy of the ILE submitted document and then went on to detail ONLY the three major points we know: knife, tub spout, bleach, shoe print, computer track & the absence of evidence, the clean-up. The CNN report should have highlighted any NEW evidence is any was presented. It did not so there was none.
This is also true for Rafe's father and his lawyer's re the 39 page rebuttal on the computer evidence they also submitted today. Obviously, they did not expect the judges to read that report while sitting at the bench. It was submitted to let the judges know how the evidence can be read otherwise.
With such material presentation only made AT the hearing, a U.S. judge would take the material under advisement and postpone a decision for a few days to a week. This is all positioning for the next request for "bail".
If there is more physical evidence still being processed, it doesn't seem likely there will be a bombshell in it, so that the defense lawyers may be assuming that the physical evidence presented So Far is ALL the Key DIRECT Evidence the ILE has. The rest will be circumstantial re-creation along the lines we've been doing especially at the original thread.
Both sides are of course awaiting Rudy's return, as the trial will be, as was noted by one of our local reporters, of all three at once. What will Rudy's lawyers get him to say? Now I know that deal-making in the Italian court's doesn't have the same institutionalized deal-making as now occur's in US courts, but Rudy's lawyers have all the physical evidence against him PLUS he's already run his mouth too much.
Given that ILE has no compunctions about secretly recording Amanda & her mother and using that in the prelim hearing, which is an act that might very well get the whole case against A tossed in an American court, nor about confiscating whatever Rafe was writing for his lawyers, ILE may indeed have a LOT less physical evidence than we suppose.
Next up, My "Pincecone" theory.
Cited from Telegraph --- Professor Carlo Torre, Knox's forensic expert, argued that Miss Kercher had been strangled, since a bone in her neck was broken. He said she died in "a very short time, in between four to five minutes". ---
As far as the length of time it took, this would seem to confirm RHG's account.
As far as the length of time it took, this would seem to confirm RHG's account.
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 5:15 pm | #
How so?? I thought his statment has always been that she was still alive when he fled.
xin, for my curiosity re background on current research on violent crime, does your Dr C. work directly with prisoners i.e. counseling or is she doing research work with said as subjects? Male only or both male & female? Were these matters the subject of her dissertation? If you don't know off hand, perhaps could ask her as intro for any report.
Hey Robert M.
Thanks for the pay grade raise but I am not an attorney...I work with attorneys in litigation which runs years and has 250 depos, millions of docs and use various litgation software and information technology for trial and mediation.
I agree with your above post...there is little new today except Rudy is in another country and it wouldn't do to release your only in custody suspects.
As it has been pointed out many times in the "big" thread that the newspapers are nearly utter rubbish and as Mom said "Don't believe everything you read in the papers!"
http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/2...s-in-
italy.html Bella.....Steve has the mirrored copy of Amanda's My space Here
gwhite,
Thank you for that bit of information. I did not know that she would be leaving the following week. I find that intriguing for the following reasons. I always assumed that she left her friends early because of the impending visit to England.
This changes things for me completely. If she were not leaving the following day, why did she return back to the cottage at 9:00 pm or thereabouts? Her friends never said she was tired, nor did she indicate that she had to go back for any particular weekend.
If RGH's statement is to be believed, that a party at the cottage was agreed upon during the Halloween party, and that he arrived at 8:38 pm as well as indicating that Meredith arrived 8 minutes later(The CCTV actually caught AK), maybe he was mistaken and that Meredith arrived, okay, say about 10 minutes later. The food supposedly digested by Meredeth indicates that she ate food at the cottage before she died.
This changes things for me now completely. Could you please confirm for me that her Mother's birthday was for the 9th of November and not the 3rd or 4th of November. I would like very much to know this.
Rhonda:
Wow! Thank you so much for making it easy. I have to admit though, now I feel a little dirty... the voyeurism just got personal, creepy...
I will definitely help out with any translating in the future. Mostly what gets lost are the articles which change depending whether the noun is M/F. So a phrase concerning AK ie, "il suo sorriso" could come out "the his smile" or "his smile" even though AK is F, because 'sorriso' is M... easy, right? lol
gwhite
I meant to say 'any particular reason'
a2 quoted a telegraph article :
"...A police source said last night: "From the bugged recording it is possible to understand that she [Knox] was in the house. She denies everything, but we did submit this evidence today..."
******
That is pretty cautious wording: "...it is possible to understand ...". It would also be "possible to not understand", in other words, they have ambiguous phrasing recorded from her, would be my first guess.
See also another info source linked today, I think in both UK (Times?) and Italian press, where AK was quoted as saying something like "that night I was there" and her attorney then argued that AK's meaning was that she was at RS's house.
Who knows what ILE actually HAS, evidence-wise. It wouldn't be smart for them to completely tip their hand at this point, if not legally compelled to do so yet. Best to just go with enough to keep the suspects locked up, if they can do that.
But I sure hope that some more definitive evidence emerges down the line ... from somewhere.
may i respond in email?
send to ca94306@gmail.com
i'm concerned about confidentiality and will come up with an introduction, but for now, you may email me if you wish, with an addy.
{above for Robert M.}
Drat again re that bold mark. Sorry!
AndyT The problem with strangulation exclusively or primarily, is that so far NO ONE has disputed the ILE statements about the amount of blood all over the floor. Even if the stab wound is deep enough to pump blood out (not gush which is what hitting the artery would do), once Meredith's heart stopped beating due to the strangulation, & so no pressure on the veins to move the blood, and the body laid on the floor, blood is pulled toward the floor where it is by gravity. Its called pooling. So if dead within 5 minutes due to strangulation, how did all the blood get around?
A possible answer is that: after the deep wound was made by stabbing (Meredith was STABBED in the neck, her throat was not cut despite what every UK paper now repeats without thinking), she was obviously agitated and moving around. Finally, one of them decided to stop that by strangling her, breaking the hyoid bone in the process. Which makes the murder all that more personal and horrendous. How the prosecution interprets all this, rather than ILE in the prelims, is all important for how the defenses respond.
Which leads me to the Pinecone Theory.
bcpl,
I do remember sometime back, an article which reported that Meredith's friend Sophie, said that when Meredith left after the movie, she was tired from being out late the night before and was going home to go to bed early...I can try to locate, but not till later as I am about to sign off for a bit.
Rhondda,
I think RHG's statement was that after the victim uttered AF, she began to fade away, he tried unsuccessfully to stop the bloodflow, and then fled.
bpcl wrote:
This changes things for me now completely. Could you please confirm for me that her Mother's birthday was for the 9th of November and not the 3rd or 4th of November. I would like very much to know this.
****
to clear this up, i posted 2 info sources w links for this on the old thread about 5 days ago:
- Meredith's family's press statement, issued 5? Nov,
- Meredith's own written words,
both confirming that her travel plans to the UK were 9 Nov - 14 Nov (and then again travellling to UK for holidays 15 Dec).
I already did the search for this once for the other post - but, you could look for that post from 4-5 days ago over at the old thread, or google on "meredith kercher suitcase laden chocolates" (memorable phrase from the family press statement). that should bring up the confirming info for you.
RobertM, I was thinking the same thing, that the strangulation was an "act of mercy"
Also I just read that the hyoid bone can also be broken when someone is smothered (which would seem to fit even better).
a2,
I would really like to know that. I would also like to know if she intended to leave the following day for England.
RGH's statement that a party had been planned at the cottage, that he arrived at 8:38 pm and Meredith sometime after, and her digestion of food different than what she ate with her friends, leads me to believe that she could have been aware of this party.
This changes things for me completely. That being said, the Police have always stated that this party was fueled by sex and drugs amongst the participants. AK's statement that she was 'sorry for the situation' implies to me that maybe she planned it all. She had a key and RGH arrived earlier than Meredith. He could have only been let inside by AK.
I really would like to know what day Meredith planned to return to England.
Ah Bella Belle.
We all want the accurate info, and most of us appreciate the nuance.
Grazie.
Sorry, seems like I misinterpreted the info I saw on smothering and the hyoid bone fracture.
In the initial reporting - it was stated that Meredith had been planning to fly home the *following* weekend (which was November 9th). After that, it got confused with the press saying she'd been due home the next day. I believe the November 9th date is correct.
That information about the "mushroom" knife not being the murder weapon came from Knox's "forensic expert," not the police, so I would expect such a pronouncement from her defense team
LOL no, I was 'speculating' about the knife. pure speculation.
sorry if it confused.
like xn already stated, probably the mushroom was in her esophagus because she regurgitaed.
and like i said, i still believe it was premeditated.
and also believe knox instigated the sexual attack on MK
jw,
If what you said is true, then only one of two things can be true.
Either Meredith was tired and wanted to go home early for rest or,
Meredith was aware of the party and participated.
The case for Meredeth not being aware of the party is that she digested so little food upon her arrival.(some people here have stated that she was being polite)
Secondly, RGH's statement that the two of them participated in consensual sex is a lie I believe, based on the following reason. I just do not believe that Meredith would engage in consensual sex while she was on her period.
And this does not take away the premeditation aspect from the case because of the transported knife and the fact that AK would be privy to the fact that Meredith would be returning to the cottage.
I am not sure we would ever know if Meredeth knew about the party because RGH cannot be trusted. His statement would have to be corroborated by the 'Spanish Friends' that RGH said were involved in arranging the party.
Loz, I've noticed that Brits and Americans speculate and hypothesize in different ways. Brit sarcasm and irony sometimes get lost.
The "Spanish friends" were the ones MK spent the Halloween party with (night b4 murder) - RHG also being there apparently...
"Brit sarcasm and irony sometimes get lost"
Never a truer word was spoken! It often leads to confusion about the true meaning of the comments. It's like we're speaking a different language sometimes - but I still find it very interesting to read comments and thoughts from anyone from any country, and confusion can always be cleared up if necessary.
The fact that RGH arrived so promptly then, at 8:46 pm along with the female seen by CCTV at 8:46 pm, is sinister, given that Meredith arrived at 9:00 pm plus 10 minutes(She left her friends at 9:00 pm) It could imply that Meredeth was being set up all along.
I meant to say RGH arrived at 8:38 pm.
About AK's self-projected image since being arrested. I don't exclude that she is in denial or to some extent delusional as others have suggested. But it is also possible that everything is very calculated to project an image of herself that she thinks will be sympathetic. Her oft repeated line: "I want to tell the truth" or "I'm doing the best I can." are calculated to gain sympathy from others. Her tears in court today were perhaps the result of finally recognizing the true import of her "situation" but I wonder if it wasn't part of her effort to elicit sympathy. The same could be said of her reported calm, smiles and love for Perugia. If she shows any sign of nerves the public will tend to interpret it as a sign of guilt. Even the braids in her hair might have been prompted to appeal to traditional Italian tastes as if to say she's a simple country girl just like the viewing public. Why is she doing all this? it's an approach that has worked well before and afterall look what public sympathy did for Patrick. The difference, of course, is that Partick seems to have deserved it.
Talking about Patrick...
And with reference to bcpl's comment about the sinister time period..
I've wondered for some time now whether AK found out via PL that MK was going home at around 9. (??)
RS's knife expert says the knife is too large for the wound. That struck a familiar chord from the past. Remember: "If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit"?
Robert M. - possible postponing of the decision/judgement.
thanks, wondered if todays new was being given a slick by UK press. like the whoe body / second post mortem business - that was covered up. bt bbc news 24 slipped up days after, after it was reported back in the UK, that the body is t be flown to the UK/is being flown to.
AndyT,
That is precisely the path I am trying to get at. Thank you.
This presentation is a tip of the hat to Pinecone who has resolutely refused to accept Amanda's guilt as prima facie. Ditto for Rafe. Its really really rough, though, and maybe its Rudy's best defense.
We assume that indeed Mr X & Ms X are really there, that is ILE finally confirms the "supposed" organic substnaces found both inside and outside as 1) from the same pople, and these people are 2) a male and a female. Also, that the organic substances were found IN Meredtih's room and not say in the downstair flats. (ILE seems to refer to the whole house as the murder scene, rather than just Meredith's room. That's another point of confusion among us & them too, I suspect.)
At this point, then we can safely say that at around 10 pm there were at least 4 people in the house: Meredith, Rudy [because his baseline statement is that yes he was in the house and Meredith was alive & not stabbed: that hasn't changed] and Mr. CS (cottonswab) and Ms CS (cotton swab). For this scenario I place Amanda, stoned stoned stoned, in the kitchen eating mushrooms and other foods. For this scenario, I place Rafe at his house, also stoning out.
Rudy does indeed violate Meredith but its at the behest of Mr. CS and Ms CS. Rudy does indeed go to the bathroom, but has no ipod as he indeed hear's something amiss which is why he doesn't flush the toilet but does wipe. He passes Amanda putting her hands over her ears, and peeks into Meredith's room. What does he see but Mr. CS strangling Meredith and Ms CS holding the knife that Amanda brought over from Rafe's place. She's holding it with either a gloved hand or wrapped around the handle. Mr CS makes a remark similar to what Rudy now reports [heck, when PL was the target, I made a similar remark about American white girl's tendencies] -- and Rudy splits immediately. Its now 10:30.
continued
Puzzler,
In Law, they say, "if the facts do not support your case, argue the law." RS is involved in this 'situation' as AK has stated, and his lawyers are doing everything they can to use the Law to dispute the facts.
RobertM,
The Police have stated that they are investigating RGH's claim that a small white car was in front of the house on the night of the murder of Meredith. And indeed, a small white car was captured by CCTV leaving the scene that morning. Perhaps this is the car owned by Mr. X and Ms. X.
bpcl, i went back to the older thread, and found the link to the Sun article that quotes Meredith's facebook. however, the link no longer works:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle424024.ece
however, the google search i suggested should bring up the Kercher family's press statement.
in the early press reports, it was reported that Meredith told her friends with whom she dined, that she was tired and wanted to have an early night. she had been out very late the night before at the halloween party.
one of those friends (sophie?) also said that she had good reason to believe that if Meredith was planning on meeting someone, she had good reason to believe that Meredith would have confided that in her. actually, the friend said if Meredith was planning on "sleeping with" or "having sex with", someone ... one of those wordings.
it does not take away from the premeditated aspect, no. it could even strengthen it, as it might be a few days before Meredith was missed. if she had been expected home in the UK next day, she would have been certainly missed.
as for the period - that assumption derives from the "tampon" issue, doesn't it?
"the tampon issue" hasn't satisfactorily been cleared up for me. in the italian press, all the reports that i (tried to) read seemed to say that rudy's dna was found on vaginal swabs taken of Meredith (as in post-mortem, forensics). then, 2 UK papers reported that rudy's dna was found on Meredith's "tampon".
apologies for repetition, but seems that the old thread is not being read by new people.
i wondered whether that was a translation mistake and asked our Italian-speaking friends here for clarification. one answered (was it you, damian?) and said that he thought that the correct info was a post-mortem swab.
the italian word used in the newspapers is quite close to the english word "tampon" (the personal hygiene use of the word derives from the older medical usage, for absorbent material used for such things as stemming bleeding - see how that could be a forensic swab?)
personally, i think that any mention of tampons and menses should wait until we have some better indication that these things are fact rather than misunderstanding. there is enough trauma for Meredith in the murder as is. JMO.
no easy facts in this, even the ages of some of the suspects are constantly changing, and that should be easy enough to verify (RS - 23? 24?)
back to the premeditation, though ... i wouldn't put anything past these characters. whether there was some scheme to intimidate, harm, kill meredith, or else, spur of the moment craziness.
erm sorry to say this again. basically i made a recording. at first I thought it said "I don't know who did it" but i listened back today and now i think it says 'i told who did it'. I tried to put it on youtbe yesterday, but it has not accepted. It seems to be a female S.London accent. I am mancunian, in the uk, & never been to italy so.... i know someone on the other thread said something about shadows 'posing' as people. and after all this i am going to 'close the door' & get reconfirmed. anyway,
my email is: love_life_2_death@hotmail.co.uk if anyone who can get it on the net, and listen to the originals & enhanced recording. I'd like others opnions if you just want it mailing and to listen. I KNOW it's crazy, unlikely and all that.
But that RHG guy did say MK had said something he may not be telling the truth of the initials she gave. who knows. probably just radio signals or sounds reverbing in space & time *shrugs*
soozie, one constant over the weeks has been that we hear very little about RS.
any guesses re his sexual predilections were from his reported extensive collection of Manga(sp?) comics. the police were reported to have confiscated this collection from his flat. the themes were reportedly murder, murder with knives and swords, murder by knife or sword of erotically dressed women. ergo, eroticised violence. that is all that i've read, besides his own statement about "only one other girl has entered my life".
forgot to add on last comment re RS's 'comics' - who knows whether this collection is any indication of RS's sexual nature. raises questions but no answers.
Loz, I love you 2 bits, but are you telling us you're some kind of medium??? Andy
The Police have stated that they are investigating RGH's claim that a small white car was in front of the house on the night of the murder of Meredith. And indeed, a small white car was captured by CCTV leaving the scene that morning. Perhaps this is the car owned by Mr. X and Ms. X.
bpcl
------
OR, Rudy is making news coverage cllues fit his story...
Oh, look at this, a prior arrest!!!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1879
'tampone' means swab. Rudy's dna was found on the swab.
It seems AK has a new story. A fifty page diary was confiscated; entitled 'My Prison', (and written in prison) a collection of memories, poetry and aspirations.
The Repubblica say she wrote..
'RS could have killed Meredith, although I don't know why.'
On Meredith..
'She was a wise (clever) girl, but she gave lots of advice to people about who they should see (hang out with)
She also says that Meredith was smart and that if she had been there that night, Meredith wouldn't have died.
She also wrote that she has never owned a knife.
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...nti-
amanda.html
I passionately dislike Daily Mail but if that new article ("The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy") is based on facts, it would explain a lot of things and make the idea of her involvement much more credible.
We need someone to go down to the Municipal Court in Seattle and check on Crime No: 071830624. Please!
The article has a couple of facts wrong- it puts her birthday in September- her MySpace had her listed as a Cancer. It also calls her school the University of Seattle at the end.
Interesting that the current mayor's son went to the same prep school she did. He has been charged with being involved in a gambling racket at the Indian Casino he was working at.
Other than that, very interesting... She definitely sounds manic, if nothing else. Sleeping with strangers on the train is beyond low self esteem!
'...only once, when she was in a town in northern europe and she decided to carry a kitchen knife in her handbag.' This is translated from the Repubblica article above. (I'm not making it up)
AndyT, the case is not currently available on the website. ( http://www.seattle.gov/courts/ )
I saw that too Damian, I wondered whether she meant Leeds or Coulsdon...(for the N. European town..)
Buona notte everybody
(will be dreaming about going on trains)
RGIL: wrote passionately dislike Daily Mail but if that new article ("The wild, raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy") is based on facts, it would explain a lot of things and make the idea of her involvement much more credible.
Early it was reported that she got a "noise" ticket for a wild party. The rest sounds made up or at the least makes me jealous I never got invited to parties like that. Washington University is in St. Louis, Knox went to the University of Washington.
Is she involved? I feel pretty sure she was in the house during the murder. Did she take part in any way?
That is the part where something like evidence would be helpful.
Was she a loose canon that you would go around the block to avoid? I would.
Defendant Summary
Court Defendant Number: 1336461
Name Of Record: AMANDA MI KNOX
Aliases: AMANDA MI KNOX
Date Of Birth: 07/09/1987
Language:
Employer:
Case Citations Hearings Defendant Obligations Warrants
Case Number Type Status Filing Date Police Incident Number
202557635 IN CLSE 07/02/2007
Pinecone continued.
What Mr CS & Ms CS have done is turn a little druggie party semi-organized by Amanda who may have brought the mushrooms & the knife from Rafe's place, into their own type of Party Scene, and on the semi-spur of the moment, moved it onto murder, an experience they had been working themselves up to. Despite being his invitees, they are confident he does not know who they are, being stoned stoned stoned, and they only gave him nick [or false] names. They've played games like this many a time before, though perhaps not up through murder. Being NOT stoned, they know just what they've touched and where they have been and not been. They put Meredith's body into the freestanding closet [IF this leak is true but again there must be SOME evidence for this, like blood in the closet, one would think], pick up what they can see (missing the swabs) and, while they are going out to the door, passing the kitchen, Ms CS hands a stunned, already disassociating Amanda the knife with a command/suggestion like "well, you DID a nice scene, dear" and they leave. Yes, the white car is their's.
What then follows flows from Amanda's dissociating. But what she does do is put a call into Rudy to see where he is, and goes and gets Rafe, who, still somewhat stoned, leaves his Mac or PC on but does nothing to cover his tracks. Why should he? He actually comes to THINK that Amanda did it herself with the black guy, whom she never names to Rafe. (She may already be calling him PL.) They move the body out of the closet on to the floor & go on to do the staging of burglary, cleaning etc. Amanda, dissasociating somewhat still, thinks that yes she witnessed part of the murder. Its really all unnecessary. Cleaning her room thoroughly is precisely the wrong thing to do, as is moving the body. And everything else. Bad staging, and overdoing the attempt at cover-up.
to be continued
http://
publicinformation.seattle...eOfBirth.action
personally, i think that any mention of tampons and menses should wait until we have some better indication that these things are fact rather than misunderstanding. there is enough trauma for Meredith in the murder as is. JMO.
-------
agreed, one thing that points to mk being in menses is that in her original statement, when asked by police why when she went into the bathroom at home she didn't notice the blood, AK responded that she assumed one of her HMs was on her priod, and it came from that.
of course, it has since been proved accrding to the press that the blood in the bidet was amandas.
so - a big lie there.
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 6:31 pm
*blushes* I don't EVEN believe in mediums MYSELF.
but it doesn't stop my curiousity, and 'testing' things just to 'see'.
Case Number Charge Sequence Number Amended Violation Description Plea Finding Disposition Code Dismissal Reason Close Date
202557635 1 No RESIDENTIAL DISTURBANCE C PD 07/07/2007
Now i really am out of here... g'night
about merediths 'imminent return': it would be MOST compeling evidence of premeditation if Meredith was leaving for UK the next day. however it seems she was not.
but, it STILL could be such a crime.
you see, what i find weird is if there was a party, why wasn't it thrown for all the HMs before nov1st, they were returning home for holidays.
and (if true) knox was due to leave for home soon also -studying for 3 months only--
what COULD point to premed is: all other HMs were not going to be in that house over the coming days or that night, except amanda & meredith, amanda & RS(who would not have had reason or be able to go to the house once AK had gon back to US) didn't have much else opportunity. what if AK realised it was possibly the ONLY opportunity she would have to RUIN MKs year in Italy through stealing her things & instigating a rape & acting wild & disruptively over her (aks) last few days/weeks in Italy??
something like that...
Pinecone Theory continued
Clearly because of drugs neither Amanda nor Rafe are capable of taking the KISS approach: keep it simple stupid. Which would be for Rafe to call his sister RIGHT THEN with the cover story that Amanda came over to get him because she came home & found there was blood on Meredith's floor and no Meredith and so she freaked out and what should she do? And he went back to see what she was talking about because he was still pretty stoned too, and sure enough blood & no Meredith. What should we do? Oh and flush the toilet while they were at it, because under this scenario, Amanda has no idea that Rudy has really raped Meredith and left other samples of his DNA. But trying to out-think their semi-culpability, they just made themselves even more culpable.
IF there were indeed a Mr CS & Ms CS, and that is a quite definitely unconfirmed leak {swabs and that stilleto heel), this accounts for what they wre doing there, and why they haven't come forward or even called ILE directly at the time. They are the killers. Rudy is a rapist but not a killer. And Amanda and Rafe are just idiots who have shot themselves in their own foot appendages due to excessive pot use. Rafe is in for a coverup of a crime his girlfriend did not commit. And Amanda is not a psychopath but a very immature, shallow (she has a facility with languages and an ability to concentrate to learn things, but more & more she seems a "Cliff Notes" student) woman with clear Mom & Dad issues who's unaware-angst about them was addressed by "self-medicating" while in Italy with wild sex and wilder drug use, ramping up behavior she'd already started to exhibit at home.
seattleite wrote: "Is she involved? I feel pretty sure she was in the house during the murder. Did she take part in any way?"
I think that is she was in the house, she certainly would have participated. Given all that I have read about how she liked to be center of attention and involved in everything it would be hard to imagine her distancing herself from the action that took place there. You are right though, evidence would be very helpful indeed.
What I also find fascinating is that she has power over people. Everywhere she went, men fell for her as there are plenty of sources to verify this. Patrick said so about her time when she was working at the bar. She admitted to sleeping with a guy on the train. She slept with RS and many other Italian men - all the while still keeping her American boyfriend back home sweet. What makes is even more interesting is how everyone in prison really taken in by her. The prisoners seem to love her, the nuns and priest seem taken in as well. Then the deputy, Osvaldo Napoli also describes her in a rather endearing manner.
There is no doubt in my mind Amanda wields a powerful psychological influence over people. She knows how to get things her way.
'She was a wise (clever) girl, BUT... she gave lots of advice to people about who they should see (hang out with)
--is this one of the many things that could have got up amandas nose re: mredith. is she trying to say meredith advised me against RS, or that meredith thought it bad that she had an american & italian boyfriend. is it about meredith claiming knox brought 'too many men' and 'strange men' at that to the house. is it to do with meredith boyfriend.
or is it to do with the possibility that meredith didn't like knox or introduce knox to her friends?
maybe knox even felt patronied by meredith who may have said she's worried for KNOXs safety given the people she hangs out with?
Pinecone theory wrapped
But Amanda IS the one who got the ball rolling on this party (so responsible in that sense for Meredith's death, so in need of "forgiveness") and because of the drugs is NOT really sure if she participated or not. Her state of denial is real (now its "I was not there"), but, by this theory, the denial is about something she never actually did but somewhat thinks she may have. And we can't tell from her musings aloud whether its a put-on or its really what she's confused about. And we never will. Its this true confusion on her part that makes her really susceptible to police interrogation techniques after her arrest. And those statements we hang so much on, as do the ILE or they'd never have arrested PL, would in the US, in all likelihood (75%+), never make it into the actual trial evidence due to the manner in which ILE got them (11:30 pm and then 5:22 the following morning & likely they made sure she never slept in between.)
This is the best I can do to represent the consequences of accepting Pinecone's steadfastness about Amanda not being directly involved. And GIVEN the presence of Mr CS & Ms CS -- IF THEY REALLY EXIST -- this is how Pinecone's belief could have worked out. The couple in the white car are the thrill killers. Amanda's true guilt is in creating the opportunity and letting it happen -- and good girls from Seattle just don't let those things happen, now, do they?
What we need of course is true evidence to work with, not selectively leaked information that is incorrectly presented quite often and mistranslated to boot.
Robert M:
Are these the "Spanish" in your Mr & Mrs. CS? I had read early on that the police were looking at some 50 photos of the Halloween party Meredith attended the night before and was also wondering with there was a pre or post party at Meredith's house...I wondered that because of the line from this story which may be bunk:
"I saw him on October 31, the day before the tragedy, walking past my bar," said one bar owner, who asked not to be named. "I also think he was at a Halloween party at Meredith's house," he added."
"I know him. He was in my bar from time to time," he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith420.xml
AndyT & the Disturbance -- that's the formal record of what we already know and discussed at the top of the original thread. "C" means it was a fine ("d" would likely have meant dismiised no fine) and "PD" means it was paid, whether on the spot or at court appearence, or even before a court appearance. One of the party participants posted at one of the first Seattle P-I threads off the main story of her arrest that she actually thought it was mature of Amanda to speak with the complainer and then take the hit for the group, because she, the poster, wasn't planning on doing any such thing! This doesn't mean it wasn't a really raucous party; just that Amanda was cited and took responsbility for it and paid the fine (well, Mom or Dad did of course).
Also, that ILE is secretly taping her and now confiscating her material for her lawyers, tends to show that ILE itself is concerned that it really doesn't have anything beyond what we now know. They are fishing and in US parlance that fishing poisons the pool of evidence they have and so stuff would get tossed by the judge. (Side note: to us Anglos, those ILE actions are patent violations of what we USAers call our 5th Amendment rights not to self-incriminate & clearly there is no "privileged right of communicating with her lawyers" in Italy as there is in the US & in the UK.)
So what will Rudy finally 'fess up to and can or will ILE confirm & find the M/M CS & their White Car?
Wait a minute Robert M....even in the USA jail house conversations are often taped, phone calls too. Conversations with your attorney are the only ones protected while you are in jail. Jailhouse traps are often set and hold up in court.
Seattlite, this is the problem: these sociopaths PASS, you don't know.
OK...birth records...I see our sleuthing will get hardcore.
robert m - nice theory, but a few holes.
why haven't AK & RS just told the police who the real perps are?
are they really confident they won't be 'wrongly'-in your scenario found guilty of murder. and they are simply lying because they are scared to say they should have called an ambulance & they covered up??
--amanda knew that the blood in the bidet the police were referring to was hers, but she said she thought that NO it was she thought that night, another remale HMs blood from menses---
that's a PRETTY BIG LIE, especially considering how oh so tired she was, cnfused cos the police were shouting at her, and hit her on the head.
the bidet blood lie also shows that she is not in denial, IF guilty of the murder who knows, that she is NOT disassociating.
unless of course, she was disassociated at the time she saw the blood in the bathroom & was lying to herself??
Xin: Seattlite, this is the problem: these sociopaths PASS, you don't know.
And this is in response to what?
seattleite
SUPPOSING that DNA will really establish Mr & Ms CS's reality, then, yes, they could be the "Spanish" people Rudy has already referred to, or they could be people he encountered just that night, said come along, and they brought with them their own intentions and predilictions. And this is indeed a problem for the ILE, because by advancing this idea through a leak before final confirmation, they've given the defense MORE than a hatrack upon which to rest their fedoras. And whatever the final DNA results they report, defense will ask for a retest by their own experts. If I can see this, then Amanda's MBA-trained father can see this.
For an American jury, the actual existence of these people creates "reasonable doubt" from the gitgo that defense lawyers can use/exploit. [And said US defense lawyers would also make sure that Amanda never said or wrote anything again outside of their presence and would NEVER let her testify on her behalf. They would let their own psychologists testify for here.]
Thanks Robert M: Your clarity is appreciated.
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 6:36 pm | #
i read many sources: italian and english: all papers have some different views. (i did also some courses italian) i have read it a few minutes ago - i'am sure she must be evil, but i like her.
"Within hours of arriving in Rome, she e-mailed a former Washington University student, writing excitedly of having sex with a stranger on a train."
"Knox also cultivated cannabis plants around the apartment and would smoke her first joint before she got dressed in the morning. There were rumours that Meredith had accused Knox of taking money from a drawer."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1879
i have met many young people from the states in italy but i have never met a girl like foxyknoxy.
"However, it is known that he (RHG) regularly played basketball on the court around the corner from Miss Kercher's house."
from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith420.xml
hadn't either AK or police accused PL of meeting AK at the basketball court earlier that evening?
Isnt'it weird that RHG says she was near the house at 8:38 waiting for Meredith, at the exact time we know that PL' cell phone was detected by the cell of the area?
Rhonda yes you are quite correct. But the incident was a secret taping of Amanda's conversation with her Mother. No US DA can get away with that unless they have a warrant and to get a warrant they'd have to convince a judge that ANOTHER crime was being conspired. And any writing said to be FOR HER LAWYERS would be considered privileged in the US; her lawyers would even have given her special large envelopes so stamped. Just those two actions alone would be grounds for a request to dismiss any evidence or statements associated with those actions.
However, a cellmate reporting what Amanda may have said in a conversation is another matter; either the cell mate would testify directly or the DA would get a warrant to wire her or even to intercept a public payphone call out. [The latter such action has led to one murder for hire conviction that I know of.] There are behavioral lines here that exist for both US & ILE but US lines clearly are more demarked and hedged about. ILE has the more freewheeling hand here. On the whole, I think I prefer Anglo-American jurisprudence. Now if we can just put a stake through the heart of the vampiric-like John Yoo interpretation of the US Consitution and get full habeas corpus restored, why we might yet have some fine war crimes trials of our own.
fran - that & the basketball thing. could it have been disimformation/misinfo put out by the ILE to lull RHG into a false sense of security as he would think they are mistaking him for PL. RHG was in germany on the run at he time.
rob m: unless they had reason to believe AK might ask her mum/confess to her something. maybe an escape plan?
but fran you are right. could it have been a 'party'?
Myself I've started to think that 8:38 regarding PL could be a false leak, because they have never talked about that anymore
for Random Guy, I can only address the first part of the DM article, up to this line: "But police say a bloody fingerprint found at the murder scene belonged to Knox."
Because THAT statement of fact is one of those early leaks that ILE is no longer using in its reports to the judges. IF they indeed had such a fingerprint in blood, THEN its game, set, match & throw away the key. As they don't use it in either of the reports to the judges, then they have no such evidence. And the DM writers & copy-rewriters left that interp in for the dramatic impact. As they did with other phrases AFTER that line.
What ILE likely have is evidence of finger marks, in both blood and as bruisings, on Meredith's face neck & shoulders, but those in blood could not produce usuable prints at all. But they've got Rudy's and they've forthrightly said that, plus they have the DNA. But for Amanda it seems they truly have NOTHING save what they think is on the knife {she cut herself slicing mushrooms?) and for Rafe its the shoe print which may or may not match the peculiarities of his sole. But addressing those issues is not the point of the DM piece. What they've sensationalized about Amanda at U of W is accurate however.
Random Guy - "There is no doubt in my mind Amanda wields a powerful psychological influence over people. She knows how to get things her way"
Except today. And I'm 100% convinced she was fully expecting her 'sobbing' and protestation of innocence (along with her half-hearted apology about blaming Parick) to convince the judge to let her go and be housed with the singing nuns.
I bet she is seething inside that her act didn't work. I mean, let's face it - perfectly normal respectable people are totally taken in by her. I find that quite frightening. But the judge isn't having any of it thank goodness - so the one person she needs to be taken in by her - is not playing the game. Good!
Myself I've started to think that 8:38 regarding PL could be a false leak, because they have never talked about that anymore
fran | 11.30.07 - 8:36 pm | #
yep, I guess it will all come out in the trial.
Fran...your probably right...I tend to think,it was Rudy(confused) who picked up on the time(8:3,on his two week flight........Then used it to spin his tale
Robert M. | 11.30.07 - 8:23 pm |
"Now if we can just put a stake through the heart of the vampiric-like John Yoo interpretation of the US Consitution and get full habeas corpus restored, why we might yet have some fine war crimes trials of our own."
Robert M - I'm with you. Here's the Chaucer Blogger's sarky comment on the recent - and outrageous - 'revolution' in English law"
http://www.zazzle.com/jurgen9/
pr...841696044088694
RobertM
These are the facts as I know it. A knife that contained the DNA of both Meredith and AK was found in the flat of RS. Meredith had never visited RS's flat. The girls in the cottage testified that they had never seen that knife before. A bloody shoeprint found in the cottage with an irregularity linked to RS's shoe. A CCTV caught a woman with light covered clothing entering the premises. AK has never denied that it was not her, and I assume the Police have given her the chance.
There is no way Meredith would have let RGH, and Mr. C and Ms. C into that cottage by herself. She had complained vigorously, and as we now see rightfully so, about strange people coming into there. They had to be let in by AK who was the only other person who had a key.
RS and AK were smoking dope all day together. I don't think for a moment that they left each other. RS now says he was at home alone, without AK, surfing the net, which is a lie. His lawyers will never be able to prove otherwise I can assure you. AK stated today that she was at RS's house. In effect, they are distancing themselves from the crime and each other.
I believe that AK initiated the 'party' at the cottage knowing full well that she was laying a trap for Meredith. Her 'rape stories' and the fact that PL stated there was so much 'fury' in her about how Meredeth was stealing her light, that she wanted to teach Meredith a lesson. She might not have told RS about her intentions. Rudy was invited to the party for the drugs and that might have been the enticement AK used to get RS to come. Additionally, and we are not sure of this yet, two other people could have been at the cottage. Either they were invitees or were part of the clean up.
It really does not matter anyway. The Police have linked AK to the cottage that night, or the day after. AK, RS and RGH are all involved with her murder at the very minimum. They let her die afterall, because they could not afford to let her live. And in time, this will all be proven; just watch the words of the Prosecutors today. They would not have said the words they chose to say today if they did not possess evidence to the contrary.
And this is not about mind games either. It is, as Luke as stated, about a sociopathic individual named AK who throughout her life, has sown the seeds for the destruction of many. For the first time in her life, she will pay the price for her behavior. Somewhere, perhaps in the heavens, there is an angel named Meredith who is saying, "My life for that Bi*ch*
Fran..sorry about the smiling face dude...not sure how I did it...all thumbs here
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but this paragraph makes no sense to me:
"A court in Koblenz is due to decide next week on Guede's extradition. But Germany wants an assurance that, if he were jailed for life, his case would be re-examined within 20 years"
I don't understand. Why do Germany care about sending a murder suspect back to Italy for questioning? Why do they care that his case should be re-examined? I could make more sense of it if he was German, but he's not. Can anyone explain this to me please?
Soosie,
They are asking this because Italian courts only review life sentence cases every 26 years.
thanks bpcl, I understand that part. What I didn't understand was why Germany would care if a murder suspect had his case reviewed after 20 or 26 years, especially if he's not German. I'd have thought all they cared about was getting him back to Italy for questioning. But it seems they're concerned his 'life' imprisonment might not be reviewed for a further 6 years on top of the 20. That's what I didn't understand.
Soozie, I think that German law demands life sentences be examined every 20 years, so German extradition laws presumably require this before sending someone abroad for trial.
Another example would be Britain (and other countries) trying to ensure extradited suspects will not face the death penalty abroad.
Soosie,
Perhaps they know that RGH will be convicted because of his involvement and will be given a life sentence. If it is proven that he is not the assassin, then maybe they would like to see his case reviewed in 20 years rather than 26. I don't know, however, this was my initial assumption.
Viv,
Your response is better. Thank you.
for Random Guy continued.
Why I say the first half is accurate or is most likely accurate is that, as a graduate student a few * ahem * years-years-years ago, I was the head resident of a coed dormitory, when that was first coming into vogue in the US. Did it for 4 years, which covered the period when the US Congress forced states to re-up the drinking age from 18 to 21. Which I've always opposed. So I watched things go from open to closed again & I had to be the enforcer. And as part of that, I also watched both the men and women exhibit the full range of responses to "freedom" especially when you could drink at legally at 18.
And among the men, the biggest drinkers were also the biggest tokers. A good number were so out of control in a quiet way that they just partied until they flunked out--and the draft was still on!!!! The women who partied certainly never partied with the men like Amanda did (though I heard about a few from other HRs in meetings), but every year I did have to have meetings with or make room rearrangements for women who couldn't get on--and a lot of that was about those having sex in their rooms. As a junior said to me about the freshman she had to room with due to over-subscription and too few off campus places to let, "Its like she thinks she's the first to discover sex." So, Amanda shedding that Catholic School Girl image for hard-core reality is all too too likely, especially given how certain collegiate cultural modes are so built into the experience post-The Sixities and Seventies. This is when you are supposed to kick the traces over, or shed your knickers or whatever, and you & your peers expect you to do so.
Also, spill-over parties such as described in the police report along Greek Row are REGULAR occurences at larger institutions. Many are contained WITHIN the actual fraternity house, but if there isn't one blowout per semester, & summer sessions, which is when that party occurred, are notorious for them, then you must be at a Baptist school. I can think of several at my own semi-bucolic college way back when and indeed those were in the summer. The only reason you don't read about them in a UK paper is that none of the participants get arrested for murder later in Italy. They just go on to be lawyers and businessmen and mothers & wives. See Steve H's first post way above, 3rd from the top. But clearly, Amanda took it all into 5th geer as it were, likely fueled by her own personality (hyper to begin with) and her Mother thing as the article inputs.
Thanks Viv, I understand now. Though considering the murder was carried out in the suspect's own country . . . still, the law is the law!
And an irksome bit to me about the DM article, the bit about the university PR guy not giving out the info on Amanda?
That's a snarky bit by the writer as the PR guy certainly told him that by FEDERAL law, he can't do so officially. The writer needed to do some more real gum-shore reporting work. Still, the PR guy's been told from high levels to really not say anything. Also, Amanda was careful to keep her study life separate from her party life for two years, so if the campus police have nothing, then the University itself officially has nothing. (Campus police blotters are public records still open.) But then such a pattern is TYPICAL of all US students. Study hard, play hard. And at those US colleges & universities (such as the U of Miami in FL), its Play harder than you study. The degree matters most, not the GPA if you aren't going on to a more select graduate program. Amanda is "unusual" in having been so male-oriented and we know that only because, unlike every other women in her matriculating class, she's gotten herself arrested for murder.
cheers Soozie and bcpl.
I was looking this issue up a couple of days ago. It looks like nation states - even within the EU - still have individually negotiated extradition treaties with each other. (I personally think this is a good thing, given the varying legal systems within the EU.)
Apparently some countries like Germany do not allow extradition of their nationals. But this is balanced by laws allowing Germans accused of crimes abroad to be tried for those crimes in back home.
Guede doesn't qualify as a national. But German law, I suppose, must insist that someone collared on German soil should get the benefit of German sentencing practices. Furthermore - and I'm guessing here - German courts probably wouldn't send Guede to a nation where the death penalty was on the statute books, or where he'd be at risk of an unfair trial.
I've learned that there are specific problems involving extradition to the US from (for example) Britain, due to the separation of US federal and state legislation. US states can't negotiate their own extradition treaties with sovereign nations. Which causes a right mess when there's a request to extradite someone from Britain to a US state with the death penalty on the books. I understand Britain has sought assurances about this in the case of Abu Hamza, but I'm not sure that any US state court would be bound to comply, whereas a federal court might have to. Hope that makes some sort of sense. I'm sure others here will be more expert on this!
BCPL and the other commenters on the Pinecone Theory. Well, yeah, there are holes in it, if such & such is true or this & that actually happened. I've already argued in a 4 parter at the original post just about what you write now. Heck, I "think" Amanda actually stabbed Meredith.
Her denial of this to herself is what I and coyotewaits agree on. And its this denial that keeps me from agreeing with Luke or Steve H that she's clearly psychopathic per se. It rests in a confusion which I don't think she's that great an actress to pull off. I think the confusion is real. A true psycho would be so much more clear eyed about this, like say Sgt Peterson. She opened the door for the Shadow self and now can't face the knowledge that she did so, because she knows she's not supposed to do that. The ILE interrogators were NOT as skillful as they thought; they should never have arrested just righthen, should have kept bringing her back, should have definitely used more Good Cop.
Pinecone actually herself wrote that she didn't think the cell-phone records of Amanda to Rudy both before and after the murder really existed. And certainly ILE hasn't referenced them in the report to the judges (apparently) though they have "insisted" they exist in at least two stories. IF so, neither Amanda nor Rudy has addressed those "facts". But Pinecone is correct to be very skeptical about what the "leaks" really are. Do they really exist? Likely only in the presentation for Rudy's being held or at trial will we know. If used, they exist. If not used, then they don't. They are too damning to be denied by Amanda or Rudy's lawyers, re prior relationship.
All I was doing was reflecting on the continued reportage about Mr & Ms CS, and what it could mean if real to all parties involved and I realized that it was the one approach into which Pinecone's cautions could all fit. And it doesn't make Amanda or Rafe not culpable -- but the culpability is for something other than murder.
Viv yep, as far as I know, that's it. States can pass special legislation saying no one who committed a murder between these dates will be put to death if found guilty. That's changing their own law to meet the demands of the foreign nation. Pennsylvania did that to get a man back from France who had fled just as his trial was to start. Had to wipe out the possibility of a death penalty for just that case in order to get France to sign him over. A notorious case that went on for at least two decades. Ira somebody. He killed the woman he'd been living with and kept her body mummifying in a trunk for over a year before police came back.
RobertM,
I have read your analysis. I myself no longer really accept the facts when they come from the Press or the Police. I wait to see if they keep repeating them, for example, like the bloody shoe print or the knife for example. If the Police keep repeating it(unless it is an outright lie, which we would not know) I tend to believe them. Another example, is the blood of AK on the faucet if you will. The keep holding onto that because that is the only way they can logically prove that AK was there. And I believe them in this case.
The other thing I believe to an extent are the actual statements of the persons involved. Now granted, some of it is falsehood, but in between, is the truth. And Luke has been exceptional in pointing out the inconsistencies in their statements and putting two and two together to point out to us, what is really being said by them.
That being said, I can see based on the statements from RS for example, I was on my computer(therefore I am not sleeping) I should be able to prove that, but HE cannot because of the 'cookie' concept that could help prove that he was surfing. I was surfing(therefore not sleeping) and my father gave me a call and I answered(He did not answer the phone, otherwise his father would be vociferously complaining that he spoke with him) Therefore by his own words, he was at the cottage because he cannot prove that he was anywhere else. A person, like an electron, can only be in one place at a time. He was either home or he was not. If he was not, where was he. He must have been at the cottage. If he was at the cottage then he participated in the murder.
It is a logical point to be sure, but that is what I use to determine the truth of the matter from statements.
AK says she was at RS's house, RS says he was there, but she wasn't. AK has no alibi either. If RS had been there, he could cover for AK and vice-versa. If AK can not cover for herself, then she must have been somewhere. Since she has no one to vouch for her, then she too must have been at the cottage and therefore participated in the murder.
Again it is logic, but like I stated before, no person can be at two different places at the same time.
And this is the logic that I use to try and determine the truth of the matter.
It has nothing to do with feeling, or emotion or transcendence or metaphysics or human psychology or any other possible description of life itself. Either these people were at another place in time and can prove it, or they were at the cottage. The human existence can provide a trace if you were at a one place, at a specific time. For RS, it is the computer, for AK it is RS. They both fail in my book.
Robert M: There have been some excellent theories and I think yours is one (actually bcpl had an excellent one on the old thread also and I agree Pinecone's is clear and much in line with "evidences" that are plausible.)
Seems the crux: is Amanda capable of crossing the line (under the influence or not) or being over the line in terms of harming another human with her own Amazonian mountain climbing hands(or a knife).
Some seemed convinced she is a sociopath/psychopath or a demon like Lillith? That DM piece pushed all the scary human buttons, didn't it. Great tabloid writing.
Personally don't know much about aberant psychology but the woman I have seen in life who had these Amanda-ish traits usually did something to themselves (cutters, druggies etc.) rather than attack someone else.
Is it possible she is sociopathic, psychopathic: maybe she is. Don't know and am eager to hear a real med professional's opinion.
But what is known? There is evidence which has not been examined in the light of day (or even in any formal discovery process). Hell, they haven't even been charged. And some theories that seem to fit known facts and some possible scenarios.
Giving that, it "remains to be seen what the level of participation was" is not a bad position for a layman outsider looking in.
bpcl:
The report of the police computer people and the RS experts is something I wonder about. Would the RS camp be under a penalty of law if they release their info? I mean under penalty like a sanction? Or are you saying they just don't have the goods and that is why they haven't leaked it.
Robert M - thanks for that example. I thought there must be ways around such an impasse, but can believe that they would take flippin' ages.
Turns out I was wrong about Abu Hamza - the charges he faces in the US do not carry the death penalty. Other reasons were advanced by his lawyers against his extradition, but it looks like he's going: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/37.../uk/
3753341.stm
One of the biggest extradition rows of recent times involved a British-Jordanian extradition agreement involving "assurances" of no torture:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...ast/
4155806.stm
But news the following year (March 2006) that our Government was apparently complicit in extraordinary rendition rather overshadowed such legal arguments.
Seattlite,
What I am saying is the Police have categorically denied that RS was surfing on his computer and they can prove it using the cookie concept.
HTTP cookies, sometimes known as web cookies or just cookies, are parcels of text sent by a server to a web browser and then sent back unchanged by the browser each time it accesses that server. HTTP cookies are used for authenticating, tracking, and maintaining specific information about users, such as site preferences or the contents of their electronic shopping carts.
When you access the internet, cookies keep track of where you go all the time. The server(s) you go through keep track of this too. RS could say he had a way to turn cookie tracking off, but that would not stop the ISP's server from tracking his surfing.
RS and his lawyers are caught here because they cannot show that RS was surfing as he stated. The Police know because they have most likely looked on his computer to checked on whether the cookies were there on his computer and most likely checked the server(s) of his ISP provider. They have stated that his computer was on, however.
Therefore, my presumption still stands, either he was on the computer or not. If he was not, then he was at the cottage, because he does not have one small shred of evidence to prove that he was elsewhere. For better or worse, he gave up very early on his alibi that he was with AK. Right there, his ship was sunk so to speak.
bpcl:
Re: RS Assuming the police did a reasonable forensic job. I know how easy all this would be if they put their reports side by side.
I have this little nagging suspicion about the competence of reports prepared by government "experts" from experience.
bpcl:
In US, "Daubert Rule" regarding threshold for proper "scientific" evidence. I have no idea if such a thing exists in Italian jurisprudence.
Seattlite,
By default, Police in most places are not the best suited because, well lets face it, societies cannot afford to pay the salaries necessary to get the best people.
I am sure that the lawyers involved will do their level best to destroy the facts as presented by the authorities. In law as you know, when the facts do not support your case, use the law to argue the facts
In the end, when all is said in done, justice will be applied to all those involved in one way or another. All of us wish that justice will be swiftly applied, but it is always slow; and it should be, when the state is asking that a person be incarcerated or even given the death penalty.
None of us want to give the State that much freedom. However, if you read the statement by Meredith's Mother the other day, you can understand why I/you would do whatever I/you could to determine the truth and bring the perpetrators to justice.
In my heart, I chose not to discover why AK/RS/RGH/others did the act they did, but rather how they did it and to expose them for it. I do it for Meredith and her family, for those who loved her and her boyfriend who will never know, as he stated, what a life of love could have been with her.
Amen to that.
All I was doing was reflecting on the continued reportage about Mr & Ms CS, and what it could mean if real to all parties involved and I realized that it was the one approach into which Pinecone's cautions could all fit. And it doesn't make Amanda or Rafe not culpable -- but the culpability is for something other than murder.
Robert M. | 11.30.07 - 9:37 pm
You did a fine job, Robert M. I enjoyed reading your enhancements to my theory. Forensic evidence involving Mr. and Ms. CS must be eagerly anticipated by defense attorneys.
Seattlite,
I do not know as well. With the growth of lawyers using 'Experts' on both sides, each countering the other, it is difficult for juries to make proper assumptions. Thank goodness DNA has been allowed in the courtroom and has seen successes on both sides in the US. I do not know Italian law and many posters here have attempted to describe how it works here. I guess that like you, I will be learning about the 'law' there in the near future.
There seems to be multiple debates going on in this thread: particularity as to:
1) What exactly happened, like a movie of the actual crime
2) Why did it happen, given we know who the antagonists really are, and possibly why they did it
3) What does all the evidence that has been leaked really mean; lets debate it over and over; all of it, given we only have it from media leaked sources
4) What do the investigators really know and what will the prosecution present upon final trial
Lost amongst all this debate back and forth is exactly why (2 above) it happened, which is crucially important to any prosecutor to present a case to any jury and/or judge. Amongst this is premeditation and intentionally or not; that may exist. All forensic evidence is very crucial, including DNA evidence, but it is worthless in front of a jury without presenting intentionally and premeditation as to the act.
So offering my theory that science and logical thinking requires a most simple solution to complex questions about events; I ask you all to think about the following proposition:
If in fact the events were not premeditated, whether in absolute conspiracy amongst all suspects or not, why did the so called “party engaged in” of the now accused, occur in the home (flat) of the victim and primary suspect (AK)?
Why in fact did the party not occur in either RS’s flat (to which AK had been spending her last two weeks living there) or in RG’s flat; where all could have enjoyed their party uninterrupted by others, especially a one MK.
This simple proposition merely states that it makes no sense that the protagonists chose the flat of MK & AK, knowing that the other six flat (2 women and 4 men) would be absent members over this date of Nov 01-02 and that MK would return to such flat, her home. The proposition continues that they (RS, AK, RG) expected MK to appear and that a subsequent planned events would occur including????????????? in fact they planned it.
A previous poster here, I remember the name only a coyote or something name, made this point, but not very clear in their presentation of it. All I can ask of others here is my own efforts to “think a bout it” and explain this simple proposition as to the motivation of the crime.
The only logical explanation I can come up with that counters this explanation is that MK is fully a participant in the party from before it even started. Maybe she was? But doesn't such an absurd proposition just blow all of us away.
More local color about the Italian scene. This is a quote from the english versioin of the Italian paper "Corriere" about the case:
"This is a strong charge to lay at the door of a judicial system as sensitive to civil rights as Italy’s. “It’s quite right. In Italy trials are only by media”, agrees criminal lawyer Giulia Bongiorno. “It’s because there are two speeds in Italy: trial speed and information speed”. According to Ms Bongiorno, this entails a distortion of roles. “It can happen that a journalist manages to interview a witness before the public prosecutor while a lawyer steps into the journalist’s shoes and issues news bulletins”. That is precisely what the British are criticising. “It’s not the media’s fault. The blame lies with our legal system. If Italian system worked and investigations were covered by real confidentiality, I’d be very critical, too. But that’s not the way it is. We lawyers read witness statements in the papers before we can see them in the clerk of the court’s office”.
Thank you bpcl and others for trying to keep the focus on "how".
Surprising how many "party" gossips are out there. I don't think any account by anyone (except other posters) has placed a "party" at that house that night. If I missed it I apologize in advance.
bpcl - I've seen you mention lack of cookies and lack of logs time and time again, and it seems you feel the absence of both proves RS was not online. I'm not saying that he *was*, but I do think you've overlooked the possibility of
...
unsecured wireless networks. I'm not sure he had a laptop (but I dont' think it's a stretch, and desktops can be wireless, as well), and I'm not familiar with Mac's OS myself, but there were times when I inadvertantly ended up on my neighbor's unsecured network because I hadn't forced configuration under Linux, or changed settings in XP, and was none the wiser for a while. Had he turned cookies, cache & browsing history off (odd, but not unheard of), *and* been using someone else's wireless (intentional or not)... there'd be no trace. Unless they were able to find the owner of that unsecured network & access *their* ISP logs. (Assuming Mac's logs are similar to Linux's -- all I'm seeing about internet in the three I've searched since getting online today... is the time my wireless interface was brought up)
puzzler | 12.01.07 - 4:23 am "Surprising how many "party" gossips are out there. I don't think any account by anyone (except other posters) has placed a "party" at that house that night. If I missed it I apologize in advance."
It's important to realize that the "party" means no more than AK, RHG, and RS (+ possibly Mr X and Ms X) having a snack together in the house around 9.00-9.30pm and then moving into AK's room to smoke dope.
It's speculative and used to explain why RHG and RS were both there together (which would otherwise be unlikely - and we know RHG was definitely there, and it is thought he was there coz he had the drugs).
The "party" also serves as the foundation for the theory that MK complained to AK ("strangers in the house yet again"). MK would have been unlikely to complain if AK and RS had been in the house alone.
To recap, we're really talking about a little "get together" which helps to explain certain occurences and phenomena.
bpcl asked:
"Luke,
AK's comments before the Judge were:
"I'm sorry about Patrick. I'm sorry about the whole situation. I'm innocent. I was at Raffaele's house."
What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?"
Sorry I am just now catching up on this thread....
My take on Amanda's wording is that she is creating distance (both physical and emotional) by calling what is obviously a gruesome murder a "situation." In truth, I think comments like these that have come from her mouth, are one of the main reasons that I call her a sociopathic personality.
There really does seem to be a void where natural human emotion (sympathy/empathy) SHOULD exist and would exist for most people.
With the new developments (her conversation with her mother,) she seems to be keeping the same emotional distance from the crime. Regardless if "there" means she was at her house or Rafe's house at the time of the murder, she keeps referring to the rape and murder as "IT."
"I was there when IT happened."
"It" didn't happen... Amanda happened.
Honesty, with as screwed up as all of this conflicting media coverage is, I am still finding it difficult to follow this whole mess.
I'm still confused about this other couple, and now, the white car....
At this point, I think Rudy's account makes the most sense. (How sad is that?)
Starts as a drug induced 3 way between Amanda, Rafe, and Rudy.
Amanda instigates/precipitates the attack on Meredith, the rest is up in the air.
Did violence take precedence over sex or did sex take precedence over violence?
Part of me wonders if the sight of menstrual blood didn't act as a catalyst for what was to come?
(We know for a fact that someone was running their hands through her blood, someone was fascinated by it.)
If it WAS rape first, I suppose they would have to kill Meredith, though in a drug induced mental state, that wouldn't necessarily be the train of thought, cause when you are drugged out, your mind doesn't easily come to logical conclusions.
If it was murder first, I would imagine that the means was strangulation... and then "sex" followed. I can't get this part clear in my head, nor can I shake this morbid feeling; that either the sex or some of the knife wounds WERE inflicted postmortem.
I realize that Meredith's heart would have had to still be pumping for significant rapid blood loss, but we still don't have any kind of sufficient time line, so a deep enough wound could exsanguinate over the period of a few hours.
I pray that the broken hyoid was the cause of death..
Just playing catch-up.
I'm laughing at the Italians putting Amanda's mother up "for humanitarian reasons"--then recording their conversations! Very clever!
Not so funny is Amanda saying she wants to stay in Perugia when this is over. Who would possibly be her roommate?! And what makes her think mom and dad would still pay for her European adventure after all this--and the lawyer fees too?
I don't think Amanda's fine for her wild party in Seattle was evidence of her taking responsibility--I think it is evidence of her thinking she could talk her way out of it, and being mistaken.
Regarding the kitchen knife, if Meredith's DNA was only on the tip, could she have used it to spear a mushroom, then bite it off?
A lot of people have pointed out that Knox's statements appear to show a complete and hideous lack of empathy towards Meredith - no mention of her at all, etc. I just wanted to point out that that's not necessarily true. We only know what's been printed in the papers. We don't know if she said something about Meredith's death and they omitted it.
Also, Luke said:
I am intrigued by the female sociopathic personality, as it is the rarer of the two. (though it does seem that their numbers are increasing as of late.)
Female sociopaths aren't rare at all. They're at least as common as male ones. They're perceived as rare mainly because most of us have a preconception of the sociopath that's based on Hollywood blockbusters - a violent serial killer dismembering victims in creative ways. This has nothing to do with the reality.
Many sociopaths - especially female ones - aren't physically violent at all. Many of them don't even break the law. They satisfy their lust for power, control, attention and manipulation in more subtle ways. A lot of them end up as high-level corporate executives or politicians.
Since female sociopaths are a) less likely to fit the Hollywood stereotype and b) less likely to break the law and get diagnosed, they're perceived as rare. But believe me, they're not. You've known plenty. They're that woman who lies more easily than she tells the truth, that woman who's wrecked the head of every man she's ever been with, that woman who creates high drama and vicious miserable feuds in every circle of friends, that woman who turned a happy workplace into a wretched festering pool of tension. They create devastating damage everywhere they go, and they don't need to do it physically.
BeenHereAllAlong "Regarding the kitchen knife, if Meredith's DNA was only on the tip, could she have used it to spear a mushroom, then bite it off?"
But then her dna would also be on the handle, no?
Perhaps Amanda speared a mushroom which she gently offered to Meredith, who then bit it off. "Take, eat."
Good post ,Lili.
Didn't Rafe's lawyers say they could prove he was on the computer between, something like 5:30PM and 2:30AM? I thought that was a sleight of words--which actually just meant he was online at some.
2 1/2 Hours = time for a mushroom to digest
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=1&
gl=uk
(We know for a fact that someone was running their hands through her blood, someone was fascinated by it.)
--------
really, god
Thinkaboutit 3:06am
If in fact the events were not premeditated, whether in absolute conspiracy amongst all suspects or not, why did the so called “party engaged in” of the now accused, occur in the home (flat) of the victim and primary suspect (AK)?
Why in fact did the party not occur in either RS’s flat (to which AK had been spending her last two weeks living there) or in RG’s flat; where all could have enjoyed their party uninterrupted by others, especially a one MK.
-- AK could have gone home because she did not want RS to join her. AK could have gone home cause she needed $$$ for drugs and took from meredith.I don't assume that AK was all that clear headed and she could have thought that MK already left for the holidays. etc....
On another note, I found this interesting re AK an emotions
Details about letter AK wrote 2 days after crime, which I haven’t seen before
"... I don't have my clothes and all my things. I have only what I had in my hands when the police ordered me to leave my house right away, when we found Meredith," Knox wrote.
"I am without a plan and often, I feel a lack of emotion. I only know that I am always nervous. ... I must try to rebuild my life, but I feel I have forgotten how to live like before. I hope you can help me. Maybe we can go shopping for some new clothes. You can meet my roommates.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/
lo...762_knox30.html
Lili | 12.01.07 - 10:42
--wow lili, never thought about that.
"... I don't have my clothes and all my things. I have only what I had in my hands when the police ordered me to leave my house right away, when we found Meredith," Knox wrote.
"I am without a plan and often, I feel a lack of emotion. I only know that I am always nervous. ... I must try to rebuild my life, but I feel I have forgotten how to live like before. I hope you can help me. Maybe we can go shopping for some new clothes. You can meet my roommates.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ lo...762_knox30.html
chris | 12.01.07 - 11:16 am | #
so there she feels dissociated, and I think that saying 'always' means for a time & not just post the crime??? especially since 'often feel a lack of emotion' !!!
I am without a plan???
also, she seems to be showing remorse, either for meredith, or the death of amandas self?
AK in sky news, don't know if bad reporting BUT:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1295262,00.html
quote: "Police are also interested in a section of the bugged conversation in which Knox said: "It's stupid, because I can't say anything else. I was there and I can't lie about that, I have no reason to." "
???????
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...meredith201.xml
when the conversation turned to whether Knox, 20, was at the scene, she said: “It’s stupid, I can’t say anything else, I was there and I cannot lie about it.”
“It is clear to us that she was talking about being at the scene,” said the police source.
“There are several other moments when she alludes to it,” he added.
However, Knox's lawyers have said she was referring to being at her boyfriend's house.
Knox has been writing lengthy notes while in prison, and one purported extract appeared in the Italian press today.
In it, she wrote: “One thing that could have happened is that I smoked marijuana that night, and fell asleep at my boyfriend’s house. I do not remember anything, but maybe Raffaele went to Meredith’s house, raped and killed her, and then put my fingerprints on the knife back at his house while I was asleep. But I do not know why.”
The police dismissed her new accusation, saying that the suspects had started to accuse each other in their confusion.
============
it seems people were right on this board that they'd accuse each other.
and aso, seems the ILE were thinking along the same lines as some here, that Amandas father should visit hr. and he is.
Pinecone your welcome, but its now all yours to defend! (Such as the ongoing contradictions in Amanda's & Rafe's alibis.) I just love the irony that IF, again IF, Mr & Ms CS are REAL, then the lawyers have truly reasonable leverage even with Italian judges, and it comes from ILE itself as its their CSI that found/"created" them. Very very unlikely they'll never be found, though. How many little white cars are there, and who's to say it wasn't off-cream? Rudy's DNA from another conviction was already in their data bank so they got a lucky hit early.
COMPUTER USE According to either the summary story on the hearing from DM or DT, Rafe's team submitted a 39-page report on why his Mac was indeed being used, not just on. His defense hasn't leaked it to the press and actually only just gave it to the judge(s?) at the hearing. It must have some substance or they wouldn't have presented it so quickly. But the ISP records would, I think, be the final authority on activity--unless hacked wireless! (My daughter in NYC used the renter above her's account for a year but he knew as they went to each other's partys.) These hearings are allowing the defense teams to get an early start on countering ILE evidence before the trial.
ILE's physical evidence is not as good as the papers led each other & us to initially believe, re the non-existent bloody fingerprint I covered above.
Which is why Rudy is so so so important. Next of importance is Amanda's Father: Involuntary manslaughter is sooooo much better than Murder 2, plus it'd be easier for him to negotiate a "hardship" exchange between Italy & Washington Corrections Dept.
Loz, upthread the story about the tape of AK in prison was discussed a lot. Interesting read i thought.
Also, yea about AK "trying to rebuild her life--and that she is not scared" Geez, if my roomate got killed I would be scared that a killer is on the loose. ALso, why would AK need to rebuild her life?
I think this is the most suspicious info, besides AK giving so many different stories about what happened that night.
IS SHE OR ISN'T SHE?
maybe her hairdresser and not her shrink really knows! [An allusion to an ancient American print & tv ad for Breck products.]
re Socio & Psycho - Lili, I think Luke meant to say his interest is in the female psycho. I grant you that in all likelihood there ought to be more female SOCIOs in a general population than female psychos, as the latter are usually seen as a sub-set of the former (I believe Robert Hare at his website comments on this gender difference.) We all tend to confuse the two in general conversation, as I understand the differences. But I suspect I shouldn't be talking on behalf of Luke without his permission!!!!!!!!!!
from 2004, still up on google, which makes your point:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3392233.stm
and the Psycho Checklist from this year, I guess, with links to other Robert Hare sites. Not sure who created it first, Checkley in Masks of Sanity?? or Hare or who?:
http://www.rense.com/general76/psych.htm
The Check-List [apparently not in any particular order]:
1. Glibness/superficial charm.
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth.
3. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
4. Pathological lying
5. Cunning/manipulative
6. Lack of remorse or guilt
7. Shallow affect
8. Callous/lack of empathy
9. Parasitic lifestyle
10. Poor behavioral controls
11. Promiscuous sexual behavior
12. Early behavior problems
13. Lack of realistic, long-term plans
14. Impulsivity
15. Irresponsibility
16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
17. Many short-term marital relationships
18. Juvenile delinquency [or documented anti-social actions from early age, cruelty to animals etc.]
19. Revocation of conditional release
20. Criminal versatility (Hare, 1986)
from http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/
psyc...psychopath.html
SPRAY THE SUSPECTS WITH LUMINOL??
*is it a good or bad idea. will it have worked, would it still work after all this time.
would it be successful at showing up blood or bleach on their body?
Like, inside their ears and stuff? where, even if they used bleach on their hands after clean up - the bleach would show up.
**I can't imagine on that night that part of RS & AK showering would have involved washing themselves with bleach.
* what about the hair on their head?
**or is LUMINOL too caustic to spray on the skin??? is the skin easier to wash blood trace from than other surfaces. I'm thinking of dead skin cells coming off.
***after just thinking about this I AM ALARMED THAT RS WAS GIVEN BLEACH. 2 BOTTLES WAS IT PRECISELY. TO CLEAN A CELL????
still, his ears. he must have missed a bit.
**One pace they'd never bleach themselves on apart from hair???, is around their eyes and on their eye-lids.
Up their nose or around it.
Underneath finger & toenails.
***would it be useful as evidence if it was shown they had bleach on their hands, or hair or other parts of their body***
Also, yea about AK "trying to rebuild her life--and that she is not scared" Geez, if my roomate got killed I would be scared that a killer is on the loose. ALso, why would AK need to rebuild her life?
I think this is the most suspicious info, besides AK giving so many different stories about what happened that night.
chris | 12.01.07 - 11:52 am | #
yep sounds fishy. but is it evidence?
is luminl frequently sprayed or applied to suspects bodies after a murder, if the murder didn't happen too long ago?
does/did RS have cotton earbuds in his cell at the time he had the bleach. still i think i'd be pretty suspect if BLEAC by luminol or whatever means of forensics was found in his ears.
do forensic scientists do this. is it possible.
have they not thought of it????
and someone asked, how could they stnd the stench of bleach. wiki 'luminol' and this comes up:
Luminol also fluoresces in the presence of copper or an alloy of copper, horseradish, and certain bleaches; and as result if a crime scene is thoroughly cleaned with a weak bleach solution (5-6 drops per L), residual bleach will cause the entire crime scene to fluoresce, effectively camouflaging any organic evidence, such as blood.
http://lem.ch.unito.it/didattica...ni/
tabella1.JPG
this is a table of non-chem tests for blood. BUT I don't now if they'd show up bleach, or be affected by it???
finally: "The luminol test was determined to be the most sensitive of the techniques, while Hemastix® is a suitable alternative when the luminol test is not appropriate. Copyright © 2006 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd."
http://www3.interscience.wiley.c...ETRY=1&
SRETRY=0
bcpl was like:
> What is your take on her use of the word 'situation'?
I think Knox's use of the term is a shorthand way to include a whole series of events: not just the business with Kercher, but all the subsequent fallout (the arrests, the imprisonment, contradictory statements etc) which will doubtless include stuff we don't yet know about (and which may not be revealed).
However, we should also understand the term "situation" as an Americanism. America: home of the euphemism, the place where people seem to have a lot of rests or baths, but rarely have a shit.
OOppps, again.
#5 above should be "conning", not cunning. My error.
And yes this is Hare's list that has escaped his programmatic control it would seem. The 2001 article that is gotten to by the hare/saturday link above is I think the basic short version of what Hare thinks his test can and can not show, and also his basic summary of psychopathology. It bears re-re-reading; also his two books. While reading it, keep those flashes of Amanda behavior in mind & our discussions about it as above. Amanda may fit better with what even Hare calls "sub-clinical" in her home setting of Seattle, but in Perugia... No shrew would be tamed there!
So, how do you fit on the scale? (Hare says he himself is probably a 3 or even a 5, with 30 the cut-off for clinical status.)
Hhhhmmm. According to his own webite list, the last time Dr. Hare made a presentation in Italy was "Lecture. NATO Advanced Study Workshop, Il Ciocco, Italy, August 27-September 4, 1991". Time for some one to re-invite him!!
Lili commented:
"Female sociopaths aren't rare at all. They're at least as common as male ones. They're perceived as rare mainly because most of us have a preconception of the sociopath that's based on Hollywood blockbusters - a violent serial killer dismembering victims in creative ways. This has nothing to do with the reality."
OK, admittedly a piss poor choice of wording on my behalf...
I am well aware that females are capable of being sociopathic. However, it is a fact that their cases are no where near as documented as those of their male counterparts.
That is what I meant by rare. Rare by incident, rare by report, and yes, rare by manifestation (physical or other.)
Psychopath would be a MUCH better term to use, as Robert M. stated in my defense..lol (Bravo!)
I do get those two twisted sometimes. I guess it's the whole conflict of Nature v. Nurture, Born v. Bred. (Guess it's what happens when you take too many sociology and psychology classes...:P)
At any rate, I just think it's amazing that despite being told from an early age that it is OK to show emotion (which is the opposite with males), the female sociopathic personality suppresses these emotions.
I have known MANY female sociopaths Most of them were military NCOs and COs. Most evil women I have ever met. I have stories...
ah todger, ya shoulda gone for the pun: "shituation".
But a line like "trying to hopscotch through a field of cow flaps" is much more evocative of the "shituation" Amanda & Rafe & Rudy find themselves in! (That one is from a farm-bred college friend from Wisconsin.)
Luke when you feel like it, go to Hare's main page and hit on the subpages and follow links from those elsewhere. Its like the man's work is spreading osmosis-like. There's been no one critical mass point yet, or at least there's no online available list of those programs, agencies or institutions currently using his material and training except for hints from his past presentation list.
Note that in Hare's viewpoint, the true psychopath, male or female, is not suppressing or repressing emotions. They simply don't have them as we understand emotions. They are faking it through practiced behavior. (cf Nicole Kidman story in the 2001 linked article.) If anything, Amanda has too much emotion, from what we can see but with a high narcissistic component, as in no empathic statements about Meredith over the 1st 3 days and really none since. Patrick's tag line on her, "Queen Bee", is really really apt, and so carried to the extreme would be sociopathic behavior for sure, but not necessarily clinical psychopathology.
Have any naked pictures of any of the girls in this case emerged yet?
I heard on the radio today that some of the natalie holloway suspects were realised today due to lack of evidence.
I am surprised that they were able to even import them back to jail in the first place if evidence was bad.
"Have any naked pictures of any of the girls in this case emerged yet?"
You know, Mike, I was actually thinking the same thing... (Especially with knowing how narcissistic Amanda is.)
I just read somewhere the Rafe also had graphic sexually violent "stories" on his myspace. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Thanks, Robert, I'll check it out!
Here's an "interesting" website by a person who seems rather proud of his self proclaimed "sociopathy."
He even has an "Ask a Sociopath" section...
http://www.sociopathic.net/
An interesting blog, "Perugia Shock,"
partly written in English. Intelligent --even via Google Translate-- with titillating local humor that escapes me.
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
Part I, scrolling down, includes other financial commentary, and street scene buzz.
An excerpt:
"The Day of the Jackal (Part II)
Photo Caption: Hit by a sudden sense of well-being. Official photo from the Mail on Sunday.
And so, it’s official; Patrick’s interview was sold to the Mail on Sunday for 70.000 €. At the same time, the rights to his image for the next three years have been entrusted to an agent from Spoleto, Umbria, in connection with Fabrizio Corona. So, from today, if you want to speak with Patrick, you will need to present yourself in Spoleto with a sizeable check; they will throw in a pair of underwear for the price. And if you are lucky, not only will the underwear be designer-wear but they will also have been worn by Fabrizio Corona. The olfactory proof will delight!
Unfortunately, in keeping with what Amanda wrote from prison, Patrick’s interview confirms the behavior of our police. Beyond this, it offers a portrait of Amanda that could not be worse; evil personified.
We’ll talk more about it this evening."
Loz:
Luninol is a presumptive test, and is only an INDICATOR for where blood MAY have appeared, but it also reacts to other chemicals, including bleach. Sometimes in expert testimony, it can indicate the presence of blood that has been cleaned, or sports where intensive cleaning may have occurred. So as an investigative tool, it can show where more investigation is needed.
Not being an expert, I did not want to tangle up some sort of amateur description of the material, so I found a science education site that give more information in a lucid manner.
No. Luminal is not applied to people or animals, only to surfaces as far as I know.
It often leads to heated questioning of expert witnesses on the stand, since the timing of the testing is important. Usually blood detection with luminol is the first step in more sophisticated scientific analysis. It lights up all animal blood, not just human.
There is a good picture here of the sort of imagery that luminol illuminates.
Here's the basics, sort of a neat little website:
http://tinyurl.com/epheg
CORRECTION
"spots", not "sports"
"luminol" not "luminal"
clumsier than usual today.
mi dispiace
Loz:
I've listened to the two recorded clips, but get nothing but *noise* no voice on either that I can hear, even at the loudest setting.
What should I be hearing? Voice from a tv announcer? What is the source of your recording?
Thanks.
Dr. Hare's website is collecting, identifying,posting and where online linking to any articles, books etc that reference or make use of his diagnostic schema. One such I came across is this:
http://www.atypon-link.com/GPI/
d...edi.2007.21.1.1
Sexual behavior is closely associated with delinquency and crime. Although psychopaths, by definition, have many short-term sexual relationships, it has not been shown that sexuality is a core aspect of psychopathy. A Darwinian view of psychopathy led to the hypothesis that psychopaths have a unique sexuality involving early, frequent, and coercive sex ... The present findings...support the hypothesis that psychopathy has been a nonpathological, reproductively viable, alternate life history strategy.
Which really says that psychopaths are "successful" humans(viable, that is able to survive reproduce and pass on traits) -- just not human like the rest of us. And so useful in certain situations for general specie survival or the trait/wiring would have bred out. I've been wondering about that.
xin, ah ok thanks for sharing. no, i WAS just hearing things then!!
sorry xin. thanks for listening though
oh but xin yes, at the time the telly may have been on downstairs, if you can hear that in the background!
thank you again
Rafe's father described his composure as "serene," too.
I can safely say that if I was being held for something I "didn't" do, I would be raising Hell, 24/7.
Seriously, they would have to put me in a straight jacket and shoot me up with Thorazine.
I can safely say that if I was being held for something I "didn't" do, I would be raising Hell, 24/7.
Seriously, they would have to put me in a straight jacket and shoot me up with Thorazine.
Luke
--------
Me too. But one difference is that we will probably never be arrested for murder, or anything else for that matter.
Loz, can you post the link to the "medium" again? (can't find it anywhere now on the thread)
I was thinking about this strangulation business..
I mean the victim is bleeding to death, and AK, RS and RHG are standing there just looking at her...
Which one of the three would have the "guts" to strangle her...
And was it to put the victim out of her misery or was it for the thrill?
(Or was it simply to lessen the amount of blood that had to be mopped up?)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2983881.ece
"Of her days in prison, Knox says: “I sing, I write and when I go out for a walk I sun myself and I’ve got a bit of a tan.”
"Knox protests that other inmates stared at her as if she was “a horrible being”. She adds: “My cell is cold and I’ve got a headache. I feel better only during my walk, I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good.”
Well, that contrasts a bit from the sorority atmosphere she painted, huh?
"Knox’s accusation against Sollecito contrasts with his treatment of her. In a notebook he wrote in jail, he said he did not believe Knox could have murdered Kercher, but has also testified that he thinks Knox may not have spent the night at his flat."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/
u...2220539,00.html
Article detailing the stolen cash theory...
One more link...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/
u...2220539,00.html
Kercher usually withdrew around €30 a time from cash points, but took out €250 two days before her death, most likely to pay her rent,' said Giobbi, a member of the Rome serious crimes squad assisting Perugia investigators. 'Her landlord did not receive the money and there is no trace of it, although Amanda Knox was carrying €215 when she was taken into custody.'
Knox and Guede were possibly alone together at the house when Kercher walked in on them some time around 9pm, said Giobbi. 'Alternatively Guede may have stolen the money from Kercher's room which he then used to pay for his train ticket to Germany,' he said. 'Either way, a row then started.'
Shit, sorry about that, A2.
Haha--No problem. You did a much better job posting the pertinent information...
I've wondered all along why there was such a strong belief in an "extreme sex game" as the motive or trigger for Meredith's murder...I assumed there was evidence that LE had, that hadn't been published. But now, Im not so sure.
I think that a row over A and/or R is a strong possibility.
Meant to say A or R caught stealing, could've started a row...Sorry
Well, it could have been AK and RHG acting without RS.
AK then manufactured a "flood" at RS's apartment and washed that down with bleach too - to make LE suspect RS's involvement.
She was carrying the eight-inch knife in her handbag.
That is plausible,Andy T. I keep thinking, though, about the cell phone conversation between AK and RS early in the investigation. AK told RS "I can't do this anymore. I can't bear it." That always implied complicity on the part of RS for me....Although without knowing his response, perhaps that is a leap.
And when I say that I don't understand the "extreme sex game" as the trigger, I do think it did end with some sort of sexual assault. I don't believe that it was completely staged, as some papers have implied.
This of course is my conjecture, I certainly don't claim to feel certain about anything...
From Observer/Guardian link above:
Kercher...took out €250 two days before her death, most likely to pay her rent,' said Giobbi...'Her landlord did not receive the money and there is no trace of it, although Amanda Knox was carrying €215 when she was taken into custody.'
*
Maybe Amanda Knox had to pay her rent, too. Or, maybe she always kept that amount of money on hand. It could be she was having to replace clothing which was not available to her because the house was being investigated. The story about Meredith accusing Amanda of theft came from Rudy. Maybe he'll get a PR man and negotiate his way to big bucks.
FLAG! This is the FIRST time that an ought-to-have-been investigated issue (Meredith's money) has been raised and given with specifics -- and its directly stated for quotation from the Rome Serious Crimes Unit agent, who is now assisting the Perugian LE. One would presume that similar investigations of the bank accounts of Rafe, Amanda and Rudy have NOW also been made. I'd say that Perugia finally realized they had no smoking guns on Amanda & Rafe and finally agreed to have help on the matter. So, all the physical evidence ONLY ties Rudy to the scene (saving the cellphone records) & he's already said he was there. Perugia really really needs, it would seem, the Big League expertise of Rome, in crossing the Ts and dotting the Is in what now seems to be a highly circumstantial case.
FLAG!
Robert M. | 12.01.07 - 8:05 pm
Good call, Robert M.!
You are right-It seems as though there is a ton of circumstantial evidence against AK and RS, but Rudy is the only one with incontrovertible evidence against him.
RS' shoe print and computer if analyzed properly should be solid evidence either for or against RS, right? As far as AK, is there anything concrete? I hope you're right, Robert M., that they are bring in the big guns.
And if Rudy realizes he's the fall guy, he may decide to add to the list of evidence against AK...
It still doesn't seem that anyone is implicating Rudy, at all.
Amanda has now turned on Rafe. Rudy has suggested an attacker who fits the generic description of Rafe, as well as the little "af" hint. Rafe slickly implied that Amanda may not have been in his flat that night, yet he has said NOTHING about Rudy (or any other Black man that he could make a fall guy, presumably easily, judging from how Patrick was treated.)
Of course, Rafe is also blaming his entire involvement on meeting Amanda.
Could Amanda and Rudy really be trying to set Rafe up?
I personally lean towards all three being involved, but why hasn't Rudy been mentioned at all?
I know it's "out there," but what if maybe their little group sex "party" involved homosexual acts between Rafe and Rudy??? That could explain why Rafe has made zero mention of Rudy.
Wonder what would happen if Meredith stumbled upon that?
Yeah, far out there, I know.... but I go where my mind leads me. :/
From Observer/Guardian link above:
Kercher...took out €250 two days before her death, most likely to pay her rent,' said Giobbi...'Her landlord did not receive the money and there is no trace of it, although Amanda Knox was carrying €215 when she was taken into custody.'
*
Maybe Amanda Knox had to pay her rent, too. Or, maybe she always kept that amount of money on hand. It could be she was having to replace clothing which was not available to her because the house was being investigated. The story about Meredith accusing Amanda of theft came from Rudy. Maybe he'll get a PR man and negotiate his way to big bucks.
Pinecone | 12.01.07 - 7:59 pm | #
OR MAYBE SHE WAS GONNA DO A RUNNER, as clearly it wasn't for drugs.
and as for amanda accrording to rudy ALWAYS STEALING MONEY FOR DRUGS OR DRUG MONEY BEING BEHIND THE MURDER.
I thought TWICE: HANG ON, RS WOULD JST PAY AMANDA OUT OF ANY DRUG DEBT.
I mean, maybe sometimes amanda stole money from MK, just because she wanted to.
but that night...
Just trying to figure out why Rafe wouldn't mention the one person who this whole thing could and would be pinned on...
and anyway,
since AK had most of the money on her:
IT IS CLEAR MONEY WASN'T THE DRIVING MOTIVE BEHIND THE CRIME????
unless AK was what, gonna 'run away' anyway???
WOULD RS FUND HER THOUGH???
i am confused about this money.
Or maybe the guy with a history of breaking into places with a knife stole it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
Just trying to figure out why Rafe wouldn't mention the one person who this whole thing could and would be pinned on...
Luke | Homepage | 12.01.07 - 8:54 pm | #
strategy? pact of "silence".
because they've all got something on each other that night, ie they were all involved in it deeply.
an "I won't talk if you don't talk" thing.
do the best cleanup, and pray the forensics/investigation won't catch them out?
OOOR JUST SIMPLY:
RS & AK thought RHG had split, they never expected him to finger a tall italian boy with brown hair as the murderer.
so AK & RS deny everything.
RS denied even being thre. So, how can he pin it on RHG verbally in statements without revealing his involvement.
No, what he did was leave a fingerprint, and didn't remove the hair from MKs hand. Unless he couldn't or didn't have time to launder fully? he (is said to) have left a bloodied footprint afterall.
Maybe because RS was at home at the time and involved in the clean up only & so would miss stuff(although I personally believe he was there)
Luke:
"Knox protests that other inmates stared at her as if she was “a horrible being”. She adds: “My cell is cold and I’ve got a headache. I feel better only during my walk, I can sing and even shout and that makes me feel good.”
Well, that contrasts a bit from the sorority atmosphere she painted, huh?
--------
cos it was to persuade the judge to release her on bail, as if to say she's not desperate to get out, or hates it, and would go on the run to escape it.
and it also show what a deft liar she (or her laywer) is.
I guess the judge knows whos handwriting it was in. and maybe a psychologist or some kind of writing expert would know if it came from 'her' or she was told to write it?
andyT, I will try to find the post. needle in an ever-growing haystack eh!
I get no sense of why, or what method. I only think amanda instigted the sexual attack, 'set her dogs' on MK. and that she wasn't angry, but laughing.
either just off her head off drugs & so cruel, or merely cruel.
sorry just had to have a cig. cos that's the most awful thing. i can only hypothesise if true, maybe it wasn't the moment before the attack, mayb even amanda was trying to get meredith on board, maybe it was earlier in the evening, before any argument or monney stuff? maybe amanda didn't realise what would be unlashed later?
but then, i always think, was there any attempt to save MK or stop anything. or after it was over to phone an ambulence?
The stolen money theory seems an awfully speculative theory to be floated by the police.
It worries me a little that the police are publicly speculating like that.
erm sorry to say this again. basically i made a recording. at first I thought it said "I don't know who did it" but i listened back today and now i think it says 'i told who did it'. I tried to put it on youtbe yesterday, but it has not accepted. It seems to be a female S.London accent. I am mancunian, in the uk, & never been to italy so.... i know someone on the other thread said something about shadows 'posing' as people. and after all this i am going to 'close the door' & get reconfirmed. anyway,
my email is: love_life_2_death@hotmail.co.uk if anyone who can get it on the net, and listen to the originals & enhanced recording. I'd like others opnions if you just want it mailing and to listen. I KNOW it's crazy, unlikely and all that.
But that RHG guy did say MK had said something he may not be telling the truth of the initials she gave. who knows. probably just radio signals or sounds reverbing in space & time *shrugs*
Loz | 11.30.07 - 6:26 pm | #
AndyT, don't know how to 'link' and how that all works, so copied & pasted
A crime novel containing disturbing parallels with Meredith Kercher's murder has been withdrawn from publication.
Murder In Perugia features a bar owner accused of murdering a Briton who studied in the town under the same Erasmus student exchange scheme Meredith was on.
It also mentions bars where Meredith and her friends regularly drank.
The 80-page novel was due out on the day Meredith's body was found, but publication has now been postponed.
American author Zachary Nowak said: "It's a terrible coincidence my book was due out on the same day. We decided it should be withheld out of respect for Meredith's family."
--that's just BIZARRE. is there any links between the author, a white car, or any of the suspect. were previews able to be read maybe by any suspects?---
also, the fact rudy broke & entered a place with a knife. and AKs kitchen knife.
very alarming stuff
Saturday, 17 November 2007 4:08 am
Sherck, as always, you cut to the quick. Despite the fact that there is part of me that is enjoying the attention my book is getting (it's not coming yet, maybe after the holidays), it makes me uneasy that a) it's beacuse of the violent death of a young girl that happened about 100m from my house, and B) that it is part of a media construction of what happened and who these kids in jail are. Using online resources like their blogs and MySpace profiles, the media here have created personas: Amanda "Foxy Knoxy" Knox, Raffeale the Violent Loner, Patrick the Almost-Redeemed Black Guy. It's weird that my book, which is not prophetic in any way as there is no murder in it, has been described over and over with that word. It leaves a lot of questions about the media, not many with simple answers.
from: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=1&
gl=uk
And if Rudy realizes he's the fall guy, he may decide to add to the list of evidence against AK...
a2 | 12.01.07 - 8:19 pm
Yeah, that's it. Rudy's the fall guy. He ought to be able to work out a deal for himself by testifying against AK and RS. I'm sure he knows how to work the system, and hearsay appears to be the foundation of Italian justice.
http://translate.google.com/tran...%2522%26hl%
3Den
here's a review of the book
sorry but i think the guy is sick 'maybe after christmas' *fumes*
It worries me a little that the police are publicly speculating like that.
blah | 12.01.07 - 9:21 pm
I doubt if there's any rule against making prejudicial statements about people accused of crimes there. This case is putting an international spotlight on their justice system. If they knew how to act right, they'd have been doing so before now.
WE HAVE AN A.F PEOPLE:
It IS either Zachary Nowak author of the book, or a person who is against his (zachary describes himself as a peaknik) Paknik ways.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=1&
gl=uk
It is either the article ends in AF, or Zachary Nowak ends his comment: AF.
Now, is this all a set up? or does RHG KNOW Zachary, or whoever the author of tis was
to quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Editorial Notes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Contributor Zachary Nowak writes:
I hope this helps those of us who anticipate a less-than-peachy crash get ready. I hope to have an annotated "summer reading list" ready soon.
There is also a 'third way', one which combines self-sufficiency/survivalist type tactics with community building and some relatively positive visions. Eco-villages, Richard Heinberg's lifeboats strategy, and the town-scale efforts in places such as Kinsale in Ireland and Willits in California might be considered part of this approach. Isolationist survivalism, constantly on the guard from marauding hordes, doesn't sound like an existence most of us would consider worth living. And promoting it, where it takes our energies away from more collective energy descent tactics might actually increase the likelyhood of such uncontrolled collapse and desperate marauders. So the ethics of promoting such an approach are complex. We publish Zachary's article because it is full of excellent advice and resources of value to anyone with an interest in taking more than a superficial approach to sustainability (a term which ultimately does mean the same thing as survival.)
Community solidarity and trust are great wildcards in this picture. An interesting example I heard recently compared the culture of Australian and Americans in WW2 concentration camps, where the Australians, taking a more communal and less competitive approach, fared better. There are ways to build valuable community connections while at the same time learning new skills for energy descent through workshops and self-education processes, some of these type of approaches I'm involved in personally. At a local level we can in many cases actually affect that culture quite significantly with some creative approaches. In many circumstances, collective efforts may offer a better and richer survival strategy than an isolationist approach.
-AF
=================
but how would MK know him & know to say this to RHG??? hw could it all be set up.??
a coincidence?
it doesn't exonerate the others, what if they knew of the murder, and decided to play along?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/pro.../
A3H1LQWKASUCLS
zachary nowaks profile.
http://groups.google.co.uk/
group...21522b6348abe3f
Not all students come to Perugia - or go on study abroad programs - just to
have fun with other Americans, said Zachary Nowak, 30, a New Yorker who fell in
love with Perugia during a study abroad program and never left.
"They are really integrated," he said of the foreign students. "There's no
Campo dei Fiori here, they have to make an effort. If they want to order a
margarita in English in a bar, they'd go to Rome or Florence."
-----
stretching it here but PL said AK didn't have a great grasp of Italian. although MKs boyfriend said he was particularly impressed by her Italian.
could this Zach person, or some locals of perugia, have a problem with this?
sorry guys, a bit more digging and it was just a cincidence:
Energy Bulletin to date has been maintained by three editors: Bart Anderson, Adam Fenderson, & Liam Cranley, based respectively in California USA and Melbourne Australia.
http://www.energybulletin.net/about.php
all i can gather is that they are both interested in ooil & energy.
last post:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?h...+Nowak%22&
meta=
it's an interesting coincidence. but all seems FAR TOO tenuous. they clearly know of each other, but they seem to disagree?
oh & one last thing promise. they are BOTH interested in 'wild edibles'=mushrooms? but t was said to be button mushrooms that AK MK & RS had.???
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=2&
gl=uk
he's in the web programming. tink it's him & not the american flm one, since this is basd in australia.
nah, it doesn't seem plausable AT ALL
Perugia really really needs, it would seem, the Big League expertise of Rome, in crossing the Ts and dotting the Is in what now seems to be a highly circumstantial case.
Robert M. | 12.01.07 - 8:05 pm | #
I believe that Rudy is the fall guy. The evidence pointing to him is the only forensic evidence that was left behind, without any attempt at removal. AK even made a very loud point at the police station about his "shit" in the toilet. She wanted it --and him--to be implicated.
So far, the defense for RS and AK has challenged the forensic evidence against their clients, which is why the analysis of these items( shoe print, computer history, DNA on the knife, blood spot) has to be irefutable(Enter Rome Serious Crimes Unit).
Without concrete evidence against RS and AK, Rudy could be left hanging out to dry. If he figures this out, he may start to spill all the details.
I can't help but wonder how RS and his dad will react to the published excerpt from AK's diary. The one about Rafe possibly sneaking out to rape and kill M.
AK might want to be careful with regard to what she says about RS...He has an appointment with the lead investigator coming up.
Loz said:
stretching it here but PL said AK didn't have a great grasp of Italian. although MKs boyfriend said he was particularly impressed by her Italian.
***
Actually, PL said that of MK. Not AK.
Given that the leaked evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is all circumstancial and tenuous at best, I think we should consider the possibility that they are innocent. The only evidence we have is against Rudy.
A scenario: Rudy breaks into the house with a knife on him and begins to burgle it. Then he goes to the bathroom to relieve himself, and hears someone enter the house. He doesn't flush because he doesn't want to alert them to his presense. He quietly emerges from the bathroom and tries to sneak out, but Meredith sees him and starts freaking out, so he starts strangling her to shut her up and then does the rest of it. (I don't particularly want to rehash those details.)
Thoughts?
I've thought about the possibility that RH acted alone, too. But who did the clean up of the flat and the knife and RS' place, and MK's clothes in the wash...and why if they were innocent?
From withness accounts. RH was out of there early. And someone other than RH left a footprint in Meredith's blood.
a2, good points in your 2 posts quoted below. AK must not be too pleased at the mo': still in prison, diary confiscated and musings about RS revealed, and still - no guitar.
IMHO, the british press (sun, mail, or the ilk) really made too much of AK's prison ponderings. seems like an obvious pressure tactic.
it looked to me that AK was continuing her previous direction as shown in prior "prison memoires" leaks : 'gee, i just CAN'T remember ... all that weed ... just don't remember ..."
she extended that to include a wild musing of WHAT could have happened, what was "possible" (as she said) to explain that pesky knife ending up in RS's kitchen (not to mention her flatmate being raped and murdered, ALL whilst AK was 'sleeping'). her emphasis and concern was not on RS per se, but on HER - SHE was sleeping, not involved, doesn't know, etc etc etc.
AK didn't think through what would happen if her 'private prison diary' got confiscated. as, it turned out, it did. her narcissism at work, in restricting her focus to her own feelings, thoughts, goals - and not on their potential results.
this latest "diary" leak looks like another pressure tactic to get someone (RS in this case) to say something, anything, as the three suspects maintained an alliance of silence.
sadly, it is looking like LE has a pretty thin case at this point. i hope that Rome will be of some help.
now we shall see how RS reacts.
**
a2 wrote:
Without concrete evidence against RS and AK, Rudy could be left hanging out to dry. If he figures this out, he may start to spill all the details.
a2 | 12.01.07 - 11:30 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
I can't help but wonder how RS and his dad will react to the published excerpt from AK's diary. The one about Rafe possibly sneaking out to rape and kill M.
AK might want to be careful with regard to what she says about RS...He has an appointment with the lead investigator coming up.
Rudy's fingerprints are all over the crime scene but Amanda's & Raffaele's fingerprints are everywhere else. The truth is out there, its just going to take time.
I have some further thoughts that will probably be unpopular on this thread. I don't trust the media reports, and I don't trust information that has been leaked out of context, unless it's an incontrovertible fact like DNA or a positive ID on a bloody fingerprint on a pillow. I'm also trying to evaluate the information we have in a straightforward, occam's razor fashion (a la Pinecone). As a result, I have some thoughts on Amanda that paint her in a much more sympathetic light than has been done on this thread.
If we presume that she is innocent a) on principle or b) because there is no concrete proof of her guilt at this point, then a different picture of Amanda emerges, one that sees her behavior up to this point as normal.
Consider first the details of her personality and her past:
-divorced parents
-upper-middle class upbringing
-Catholic education
-athletic
-insecure around women
-promiscuous
-recreational drug user
-pretty intelligent
-attractive
-college student
-enthusiastic
-likes to have fun
She sounds like a pretty typical young American woman in college. I knew A LOT of girls like her. They tended to be obnoxious and self-absorbed, the kind of people that were fun to hang out with occasionally but that I wouldn't befriend. Didn't make them likely murderers, and doesn't make her one, either.
Consider her behavior after the murder:
-kissing her boyfriend
-shopping for lingerie
-sounding off on her discovery of evidence (the crap in the toilet) loudly in the police station
To me, I can imagine wanting to find solace (from the pictures, it looks like soft pecks on the lips, not like passionate making out) in physical contact, and the shopping trip could have been escapist. Wanting to make sure that the police get her evidence observation sounds like she was being obnoxiously conscientious.
Her behavior while being interrogated:
-she's tired and confused. There's a language barrier, and the stage is set for a lot of intimidation, fear and miscommunication. If you're scoffing at my idea of the language barrier and miscommunication, just think about all the confusion we've had on this board regarding the tampone, and how the mistranslation of "serena" as "serene" rather than "calm" when quoted in the English papers make Amanda sound like a dingbat.
-She's under duress, and the police are pressing her for information. She has nothing to give them, but under the pressure of it all, collapses and produces a likely scenario that places both her and a black man at the scene of the crime--because this is what the police are pressing for. This is not an unlikely situation. It's a proven fact that accused people have produced false confessions because they can't take the pressure of interrogation, and are seeking momentary relief.
Her behavior in jail:
-She's been singing to herself, writing in a diary, rediscovering her religion, and trying to socialize with the other prisoners: if you pre
Shoot, my comment was way long and got cut off. Well, the gist of the rest of it was this: her behavior in jail isn't strange, either, and her "accusations" of Raffaele are excerpts from a personal diary. She didn't release it of her own free will, and it sounds like she's using the diary to sort out her thoughts and feelings. The "accusation" sounds like she's rehearsing a possible scenario, much like we have been on this thread, and by the end she concludes "I don't know how he could have done this."
I have some further thoughts that will probably be unpopular on this thread.
BD | 12.02.07 - 12:52 am
Excellent post, BD.
Bd, I don't find your thoughts in the least bit objectionable. This is more real to me than all the extreme, occult theories put forth thus far. I think that even in sensationalized cases such as this, it is often a more mundane activity that has taken place.
But, how do you square the cleaning and rearranging of the crime scene? And the fact that AK's room had virtually no prints at all? How did Rudy get into the house? Who washed MK's clothes the next morning? I don't pretend to know that it was AK, but certainly someone other than Rudy, who didn't stick around after the murder....
Thanks for the rational overview, BD. Part of my interest in this case is that Amanda seems like SOOO many Americans college girls in so many ways.
The part I can't wrap my head around is the way she has responded to the gruesome murder of her flatmate. Granted, this is in no way evidence. But I can't imagine any of those 20-year-olds I know not being TOTALLY freaked out by a murder of a roommate. Freaked out and absolutely terrified. If none of the three suspects are murderers, then the culprit has remained at large and it seems like Amanda would have spent the next few days in fear for her life - not out casually shopping.
Her lack of empathy for Meredith's family is also not only appalling but completely incomprehensible to me. Nowhere in her past "profiles" has it indicated that she would be so heartless.
It is these responses that cause me to doubt her innocence - more than her mixed-up, possibly drugged-up array of stories. Her reactions after the fact don't fit the "nice college girl who got a little wild in Europe" scenario.
To BD
To be honest I never comletely bought into Amanda commiting part of this crime. But however, maybe innocently in her own mind, I think she helped turn this drug dealer into this Frankenstein monster. Thus some culpability.
Tracy,
You are correct in your assumption about unsecured wireless networks. You mentioned that had he turned off cookies, cache and browsing off( I did mention that was a possibility) *and* began using someone else's wireless network, no one would be the wiser. And this is a distinct possibility.
However, he stated that he had been on the computer during the time of the supposed murder until the wee hours of the morning. Computers and servers are great witnesses Tracy. Although I highly doubt whether or not he would be able to use a neighbor's wireless network for that length of time, it can easily be checked if access was being made from the neighboring networks during this period.
It has never been said by his team that this is what occurred however. I have not seen them say, wait a second, he was probably using his neighbor's wireless network *and* he had cookies, cache and browsing history all turned off at the same time.
Taking a leap of faith, and assuming that all of those things to be true I ask you the following. He is knee deep in surfing on the net during the time of the murder. His father calls but he does not answer. Okay, was he in the bathroom or was he in the kitchen or was he sleeping; it would have been a perfect alibi. All he had to do was respond, even the VERY next DAY. His father sends him a text message sometime afterwards saying 'Goodnight,' a pretty personal message don't you think; it implies about a constant sort of connection between father and son. Okay, he was sleeping, in the kitchen, who knows, whatever; but he could have answered it, even the VERY next DAY. It would have been the perfect alibi.
He stated in the aftermath, that he was with AK during the night. That would have been the perfect alibi; however, he changed that by saying he was alone, on the net.
I will accept your proposition, that the two items you mentioned, together, could have happened. That being said, it still then does not give him an alibi at all to account for his time.
BD,
Who then is responsible for the magnificent cleanup afterwards? You certainly cannot mean the drug pusher RG do you? Blood was found in the downstairs flat. Only AK had the key to it. Why you might ask? Because the boyfriend of Meredith gave it to MK so that she could watch his plants and feed the cats while he was visiting his parents.
BD,
The Police have reported as well that there were no signs of a break in to the property, so that would imply that no burglary took place.
AK has based her alibi on being at RS flat the night of the murder. RS has stated that he was alone the night of the murder, surfing the net. If RS says she was not there, then AK has no alibi. If AK cannot prove where she was, then she was at the cottage(that is where she lived) If she was at the cottage, then she participated in the murder.
I don't recall that RS said he spent all his computer time on the internet. As I remember it, he said he watched a movie he downloaded and also worked at his computer. I do plenty of things on my computer that don't require an internet connection. I imagine most other people do also. Sometimes, while movies are downloading in the background, I am writing or studying from programs on the same computer which have no internet connection. You're too hung up on the cookie thing. His attorneys say they have proof. I believe them.
DLW,
A knife was found in RS's flat that contained the DNA of Meredith on the tip, and AK on the handle. The Judge stated that one of the reasons for keeping AK in prison was the presence of the knife. AK has stated that RS must have put her fingerprints on it while she was sleeping.(How unlikely is that?) Meredith had never been to the RS flat. If the knife contains the DNA of both Meredith and AK, then she has a serious problem. I suggest to you that both AK and RS were knee deep involved in the murder of Meredith. The only question that remains is, was it premeditated or not. The fact that a knife, never seen inside the cottage(as testified by the girls living there) implies that it was taken from RS's flat and brought to the cottage. By default, this is premeditation. If the knife is transported, the person transporting it must know be cognizant that it could cause harm and even kill.
The alleged DNA was not stable, not blood, and not a definitive match to anyone. Experts testified the knife was too large to inflict the neck wounds. The murder weapon was an item with a sharp point, but not a sharp blade. I like the shard of glass theory. According to reports from Germany, Rudy had a large gash on the palm of his hand.
Pinecone,
You may be right on that and I can accept that. But how do you square off the fact that he failed to respond to a telephone call from his father as well as the text messaging. I am not hung up on the cookie thing as you say. The cookie thing could be the very thing that could exonerate him. After all, that is what we are trying to do here, is it not? We want to find an alibi for him that will do that. What you are trying to do is explain away his alibi by saying he could have worked on his computer without the world knowing. Tell me then, what is his alibi, as you see it? That he was home all the time doing stuff on the computer that did not require the internet, downloading from time to time etc(and by the way, your hypothesis can be proved by the lawyers showing that a movie was being downloaded during a specific time.)
Tell me then, what is his alibi, as you see it?
bpcl | 12.02.07 - 2:30 am
As I see it, his alibi is exactly what he has said. He had nothing to do with the crime.
Pinecone,
You can anything you want too about the DNA being unstable, or that the murder weapon was a shard of glass or a knife. I am not privy to that information. I only go on the statements of the parties involved. I will let go of the knife if you will. Let's get back to the statements of the parties involved. RS said he was with AK initially. AK stated the same. When RS said he was alone, AK said she was at the cottage. Now AK says she was at RS's flat and RS says he was surfing, although as of yet he cannot prove it. Since they have both lied, why am I to believe a word they say now?
Pinecone,
Since he has lied to the Police about his actions, you can now say you believe him when he says he was alone, surfing?
And by the way, I believe he told the Police that he answered the call from his father. I know that to be a lie because if it had been true, his father would have vociferously stated that he talked to his son on the phone. Thus far, he has not made that statement. This is another lie from RS to the Police. We are tying to help the guy find and alibi, are we not?
This is another lie from RS to the Police. We are tying to help the guy find and alibi, are we not?
bpcl | 12.02.07 - 2:40 am |
At this point, RS has more credibility than the police. He doesn't need help with his alibi.
Pinecone,
Your last statement does not even merit a response.
"Let's get back to the statements of the parties involved."
I won't trust any "statement" from the parties involved unless I see them make the statement, or unless the statement is relayed through their lawyers or family members. The press and the police continually contradict each other. They even contradict their own previous statements. The cops announced "case closed" before they bothered to gather crime scene evidence or verify alibis. Rudy was well on his way to Germany and the cops were all high-fiving each other over a job well-done.
A young girl is brutally murdered. Two suspects are currently in prison for it. Both of them have lied about their supposed whereabouts. Both suspects are admitted drug users and deeply involved in premarital sex. Incredulously, they are seen in a lingerie shop the day after the murder, discussing sex and kissing. The girlfriend of one of the current suspects attempts to frame someone else for the murder. Neither of the two suspects have expressed any kind of open grief or inward pain for the girl who was brutally murdered.
How much credibility should a given community be expected to give to these two outstanding and supposedly credible human beings?
Their was likely some backandforth of knives & other things between appartments. I don't know if dried skin cells could account for both Amanda's $ Meredith's Dna on the same knife. Far fetched maybe.
So in other words, none of us are allowed to make any statements about anything, unless they are approved by whom, God, the Judge, the lawyers, or maybe you. Are are we to assume then, that the world is not real, that when people say things, that they are not at all what they really meant to say, or perhaps even just half the truth, or maybe they were said under duress.
Or maybe we should just throw out the Press because they report things that are not true, or even the Police who fumble around as you say. Maybe we don't need anything at all to live this life. We are all just an imagination, nothing is real. When we here people say things, or other people say things about each other, nothing is real.
According you, there is no truth of anything unless it comes from the suspects lawyers or family members. I ask, why would they tell the truth any better then say you or I or the Police, or the lawyer; why should I assume that they know the truth?
DLW,
The other girls have testified that they never seen that knife in their apartment. According to the Police, the knife had been bleached cleaned. DNA residue of Meredith and AK was found on it. AK, in her recent, monitored calls, never said that she brought that knife back and forth, or even ever brought it to the cottage. For heavens sake, she only knew RS for two weeks, and spent most of her time there. I hardly think that for a couple who was making love every morning, that they had time to think, 'Gee, I should bring this knife to the cottage to make dinner)
i have to agree with bpcl about the credibility of Knox and Sollecito's 'statements'. They have both cried wolf too often (especially Knox) - so why is there any reason to believe a single word either one of them says? It's their own fault for lying. Knox also had no qualms about accusing Lumumba, and now she seems to be implying that Sollecito could have crept out and committed the crime while she was asleep!! Sorry, but when someone continually lies, there is no reason to believe their 'next' version of events.
----------------
I too doubt the credibility of AK and RS, in light of their changing statements (lies).
On the other hand, nobody - even a liar - should be incarcerated for at least 26 years based on flimsy evidence. I think this is the point Pinecone has been making.
As regards the knife, AK scored an own goal when she stated - in her "My Prison" ramblings - that she had already carried a knife in her bag in a town in N. Europe. LE need to find out when and where that was. (I suspect it may have been when she visited the Reeperbahn in Hamburg - and not because she felt unsafe! LE may be able to learn something from that.)
We now know that all three (current) suspects have a history of carrying knives on their persons.
At this point, AK has the least credibility of the three suspects, IMO.
RS may initially have lied to LE, but he can claim (and has claimed) that his lying was AK's fault. I think in Italy this argument will be better understood than it would be in the Anglo-sphere. Apart from this initial lie, RS's account has been broadly consistent.
AndyT
We are not privy to all the evidence that the Police have in their possession. The Police have stated that the bloody shoe print contains an irregularity that is particular to the shoe that was worn by RS. The Police have stated that two bottles of empty bottles of bleach were found in his flat. These are the reasons that the Judge stated for keeping him in prison, not to mention his consistent lying to the authorities. The Police have also stated that both the cottage and his flat were cleaned down by bleach.
You know the term 'Accessory after the fact'? If it is discovered that RS was even involved in the cleanup, he is guilty by association. How does one say, I was not involved in the actual murder, only the clean up. If he was involved for example, only in the clean up, then he is still holding back information that prevents the Police from doing their job. He is culpable to the murder itself.
This girl was brutally murdered. Her parents have lost their daughter. They would like to see justice done. If he was only involved in the cleanup, he is still culpable. In the end, if he is only involved in the clean up, how is he any better than the others, and as a human being, he only prolongs the suffering of the Kercher family by his reticence.
Luke: "I know it's "out there," but what if maybe their little group sex "party" involved homosexual acts between Rafe and Rudy??? That could explain why Rafe has made zero mention of Rudy."
...stretching things a little, Luke...
But, who knows, maybe this will be AK's next story (??): "RS sneeked out of the apartment while I was asleep. He was carrying the knife and was heading for the other house to make out with RHG in my bed. MK must have disturbed them. I have seen this in my dream. But I don't know what the truth is."
I believe them.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 2:19 am |
FREE THEM NOW>>>>
your faith shall be rewarded
.
bcpl
I agree, if the shoeprint is his, then he obviously is involved - and culpable as you rightly state.
But let's give him a little leeway. If AK really is a monster-murderer, then she would have been capable of twisting things to the extent that RS was completely taken in.
As I said above, she may have manufactured the flood in RS's apartment, and she may have known that he would immediately clean up using bleach. Indeed, the whole bleach story may be simply to frame RS.
Under this scenario, AK left RHG's shit in the toilet, coz she knew that, in the end, RHG would be found by police, and would then incriminate RS (RHG has already done this indirectly, by referring to the Italian with brown hair. WIll he be asked to "identify" RS as the murderer.)
I'm implying her a conspiracy between AK and RHG to incriminate RS.
Surely, this is a possibility.
Rob and Pinecone: As regards freeing AK, I think she should be in a single cell. I fear for her cellmates.
AndyT,
I will not assume any scenario because I am not qualified to do that. RS will have his day in court I am sure. My argument is that he currently does not have an alibi whatsoever. His claim that he was surfing the net simply does not wash with me. I know there are people who would disagree with me on that statement. However, what no one can really answer is, why he failed to not only miss a phone call, but also a text message from his father. The text message was personal and he never responded to them. And from what the Police said, they said he lied to them when he said he answered the call.
I am not into supposition about what might have occurred in the cottage that evil night. At the current moment, RS is not telling all that he knows about the murder to the Police; simply put, that is why he is still in prison and by default, this makes him an accessory after the fact. He is impeding their investigation. The judge stated in last Friday's invocation that RS has consistently been unable to answer questions that have been posed to him, or that he contradicts himself.
I do not know how else I can say this to you. He had something to do with this murder and he is not owning up to it.
You argue well bcpl, and your conclusions are sound.
The only possible "mitigating circumstance" that I can think of, is that RS is a total flake.
Pinecone??
AndyT,
RS being a total flake is were you and I share common ground. And as you rightfully say, that might be RS's only 'mitigating' excuse. In time, the truth will come out, maybe not the way you and I think, or anyone else here for that matter.
What is most important to recognize I think, is that a young girl was brutally murdered, left to die really, by an as of yet unknown group of perpetrator(s).
No person should deserve to die like she did, with her throat cut and her blood oozing out, unable to cry out for help, or even lift a finger. Meredith was totally dependent on these people, whoever they might have been, and they left her to die.
Like her family, I seek a kind of responsible justice if you will, one that elevates her dignity. Unfortunately, the trio we are talking about, AK/RS/RG seem to be devoid of any kind of reality and thus, incapable of helping us find the 'truth' Good Night.
G'night bpcl, sleep tight.
For the moment we must trust in the ability of Italian LE to uncover the facts.
Andy et al
my set them free post was sarcastic
don't forget the 'magic mop' from the cottage to clean the pipe leak in the boyfriend's flat. it has loads of DNA on it and we don't know about the analysis of the pipe plumbing they removed from the boyfriend's shower in his flat.
theses clowns will probably get off lightly seeing as the italians have a foreign black guy to pin it on.
and they will both make loads of money and new kinky friends.
ah justice!
.
bpcl, cudos to you. Someone finally took the time to put Pinecone's argument on the sidelines. Following Pinecone's line of logic leads to no crime ever having been committed. Oh if only that were true.
The computer issue has been covered, although somewhat fuzzily. The bottom line is the service provider (portal) can verify if the computer was online. But it's true that keeping Safari on a Mac from leaving traces requires simply clicking one item on the main menu. That would account for the statement that RS's computer shows it was not online but that's not the right place to look.
if the boyfriend was downloading a film like he says he probably used a bittorrent application. this would make many calls through the ISP to the different torrent peers to download the movie as a file. this activity would be logged but is totally automated.
the police say something definitely human triggered happened online around 5.30 am or something.
there are other UNIX/BSD logs on his computer available for scrutiny.
.
Maybe the 5.30 computer activity was when RS/AK googled "blood and bleach?"
Loz said:
stretching it here but PL said AK didn't have a great grasp of Italian. although MKs boyfriend said he was particularly impressed by her Italian.
***
Actually, PL said that of MK. Not AK.
jw | 12.01.07 - 11:57 pm | #
sorrym typo. this is what I meant
do you know, I think AK may have not liked MK one bit, I don't even know that she's sorry she died, or sorry of the fact that she died over a long time in a great deal of pain, and even shopped for lingerie with RS the next day.
I think AK deffo let MK down, in not caring maybe if MK was violated, in bringing back men to the house who she really doesn't know, who might not have even give her their real name. and in not calling an ambulence, or telling the truth.
But what is incongruent with her being the actual murderer is the fact that she says if she was in the room when it all happened, MK would not have died. and also the fact of her insecurity, her desire to impress people, the fact she's a try-hard, and so ultimtely A FOOL. maybe though she's just lying.
interesting factoid: ak (is this true) likes to 'forage' & had a cooking knife. Zachary (the author of murder in perugia) also likes 'wild' cooking. They are both American. He clearly frequented Le Chic where AK worked (and he used Le Chic & PL for inspiration) , and may have even slept with her or just known her & they found they had a lot in common. He lives 100m from the house. *wonders why AK framed PL, why not RHG*
*wonder if Zachary Nowak also is a man who is taller than RHG, and has brown hair, and used wrote the book & was just looking for a victim, if he used the alias 'AndyFinnemental' inspired by his internet blogging. BUT Zach is not italian, i wonder if he would pass as italian to an italian, has he been speaking it from a young age?
but you know what makes it all look premeditated - the fact that AK was there and didn't question why RHG suddenly split.
*you know like rhg said he could ID the man who did it in a line-up. I'd like Zach AND RS to be there.
things that go against the theory - they are all covering for Zach (why would they do that!).
I wonder if they dusted the jar of mushrooms in RS's fridge for MK's prints. AK or RS may have taken it back to RS along with the knife??
Also there are apparently receipts for the bleach purchase. Has there been any word whether it was RS or AK that made the purchase??
another thing that goes against the book promotion/fantasy thing, despite that it's obviously VERY tenuous, is the fact of AK maybe having mks money on her.
Unless she was going to use it to split/do a runner and it wasn't one of the many motives, or things that contributed to the he extremely painful death that MK suffered greatly that night.
and someone asked if Rome could be involved, I think definitely YES, the catholic church tridents&sins who knows, but the police there yes, because her body was taken there.
so, I guess if the book thory iis true (which even i accept is very very unlikely) the people/person that knows if the book thing must be very scared., must be having the fear of god in them now. good.
and haring that it took her hours to die in painful agony & the broken hyroid didn't kill her or end her pain quickly, but would have only contributed to it, must make them feel very very bad.
I wonder if they dusted the jar of mushrooms in RS's fridge for MK's prints. AK or RS may have taken it back to RS along with the knife??
Also there are apparently receipts for the bleach purchase. Has there been any word whether it was RS or AK that made the purchase??
puzzler | 12.02.07 - 7:58 am | #
? I should tink they would.
was it a jar of button mushrooms, or a plastic punnet?
You argue well bcpl, and your conclusions are sound.
The only possible "mitigating circumstance" that I can think of, is that RS is a total flake.
Pinecone??
AndyT | 12.02.07 - 6:03 am | #
yes I noticed in one picture after questioning i think, they blurred out what could have been a tissue in his hand, and his eyes were all red and puffy.
harry pot-head has been caught-out for his part in all this.
I wonder if the money Amanda has on her when she was arrested has been fingerprinted.
I would love to hear from the other two roommates.
Loz "if he used the alias 'AndyFinnemental'"
But does he use this alias?
Loz "if he used the alias 'AndyFinnemental'"
But does he use this alias?
AndyT | 12.02.07 - 9:46 am | #
online, from what i can judge, NO, AF is a real person from australia.
However, it is clear that Zachary had lots of web-chats with him on the subject of oil.
and also, they share the same interest in 'eco' or 'bio' living, in eating 'wild' plants to cook.
and did amanda say she carried a cooking knife with her, and used to 'forage' too?
what i am saying is, wha if he pretended his name was AF?
it's all far too tenuous. and perhaps jus a coincidence that RHG said or lied about the 'AF', an alternative real life in perugia AF may exist & be found. the only other thing that goes against it is RHG said the man was Italian.
would like to see if the author pops up in any photos with MK or AK or RS, or if he is mentioned in any diaries. or anything like that.
Have not fond any image of the author of 'Murder in Perugia' on the web.
also, seems very unlikely that he'd know that the house on that night would be the best opportunity for it, and that it coincided with the release date of the book (how could this be orchestrated or arranged).
seems much more likely the 3 in custody now were solely responsible.
I still can't let go of the greys anatomy text 'for me, meredith dies either tonight or tomorrow'.
what if he was just looking to do this around the approximate release date of the book?
but NAH I think it is all just highly unlikely, and that I am making the pieces fit around the theory, rather than the pieces themselves leading to a theory.
like, only pretended to new students once he had written the book & set about looking for a victim? unlikely I know.
but, an 80 page book. how long would that take to write?
did rhg know of the book, or ak. did they know the author. were chapters given out free around perugia prior to it's release, for publicity. sometimes this happens with books.
even if they did, how would they know about AF, maybe they googled it like me.
again, all very VERY unlikely.
but it was something interesting to chew over anyway...
NAH it's crazy, STUPID even. much more likely rhg was lying, and it's all a coincidence & reading FAR too much into it.
i bet AF doesn't even exist
This thing gets more nuts by the fricken minute...
Now we have an American author who wrote a book (that isn't even out yet, and wasn't due out until the day Meredith's body was found) and this book just so happens to be about a bar owner accused of murdering a British female Erasmus exchange student in Perugia?????
You have got to be fucking kidding me!??????
and then this same author closes out a web article with -AF?????
This is seriously one of the strangest cases I've ever followed.
At this point I'd ALMOST be willing to accept this all being some publicity stunt to sell a book and that those involved were paid to commit a crime paralleling the book.
Art imitating life or life imitating art.......
too strange for words...
"Shadow," anyone? Robert M.?
Just catching up with discussions here from last night. After reading through once, I went back a 2nd time and just read bpcl's postings as a thread of its own. IMHO, I helieve bpcl has laid out a clear eyed view of the evidence which points to involvement of all 3 of the suspectrs, and to their clumsy All 3 are witholding information and hoping desperately that the forensic evidence against them can be explained away.
I also want to thank you bpcl for not trying to speculate on what the exact scenario and/or thoughts of the perpetrators were that night, because, really at this point, it can only be specualtion.
Sorry--In the above, meant to say their clumsy attempts at couver up and alibis...
Better go have my morning coffee
Ok, this is what the book looks like (or would have looked like if it had been published). There appears to be a dagger and lots of blood.. or it could be a wedding cake with red icing...
http://cultura.blogosfere.it/200...a-
business.html
It would have been more Thomas Mann-ish to have called the book "Death in Perugia"
Loz, re this AF fingy, I still don't understand exactly. I mean it's clear to me that Zachary has a pal in Australia, whose initials are AF.
But are you suggesting that Zach also uses these initials? (Because his alias is AndyFinnemental?}
Clarification, please!
it looks like a mushroom skewered on a knife!
just kidding
A fountain overflowing with blood??
a2,
Thank you for your kind comments. To be perfectly honest, my thoughts are influenced by the likes of such great people here as Luke, RobertM, AndyT, Pinecone, dlw, chris, middie, Damian, yourself and the list goes on.
Together, all of us have been great with our comments, and together, we will all get to the truth of the matter, because ultimately, that is what each of us wants, that is what we share in common here.
If we did not have this place to come to, and for that I must thank Steve, we would be stuck in the maze of Police, Authorities, Juedges and Press reports. And for that i am grateful.
No semen was found in Meredith. I'm wondering if when Rudy was simulating {actually} raping her, he could'nt climax and lost his erection. He got frustrated & angry, hence the added violence and butchery.
"No semen was found in Meredith. I'm wondering if when Rudy was simulating {actually} raping her, he could'nt climax and lost his erection. He got frustrated & angry, hence the added violence and butchery."
It is believed by many profilers that a knife more often than not bares some sort of phallic symbolism in sexually motivated attacks; the knife being capable of penetration, when the penis is not.
That might be a bit Freudian, but it does make sense.
In this case, if the strangulation occurred first, their was NO reason for stabbing. I've been focused on lack of overkill, but I must admit, if the strangulation preceded the stabbing, that is overkill.
Is it a fact that no semen was found in Meredith, because I've been hearing otherwise for weeks.
Luke
The article said that there was no mention of semen. Which they find of significance.
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
and then this same author closes out a web article with -AF????? LUKE
--No luke, the editor made a note under an article the authour wrote, it's the editor of e-bulletin's initials. They share some of the sam interests.
what I think is that the money found on knox is VERY damning, if it was nt drawn out of her own account & if she already paid the landlord.
so, she's in on it. well, you know she is for definite. and RS.
what I am wondering is:
coincidence?
or AK & RS, and peraps RHG knew of the book, and knew its release date?
sorry, forgot a major point.
still, it does not explain RHG quoting meredith as saying her killer was A.F.
they wouldn't know that info?
this is because either the author has nothing to do with it, and AF exists or RHG is lying about the initials AF.
OR because, and this is the only way I can make it fit, the author who (to make my thory fit) was using the name A.F around knox, RS & RHG & MK having got the name from a guy he's been arguing over peak oil prices online for some years now.
now that seems an overstretch. I deffo think the australian AF exists, rather than being a constuct of the author. but, looking at the authors amazon, and some online writings & blogging & interviews by the AF guy, they share some sort of 'eco-warrier' things. Like 'wild cooking' and stuff.
and AK didn't she carry around a cooking knife in her bag once? for things she found?
someone in that night, one of these suspects at least. did they know of this book and the date of it's release, say through publicity?
you see though - it's still maybe too much of a coincidence that the days that the three suspects knew MK would be alone in the house ie: they had opportunity, also fell around the date of the release of the book.
The announcement about Rudy's YDNA, recovered from vaginal swabs, did not identify the source of the DNA as being semen. What they don't say is usually more important than what they do say. The location in which the DNA was found would lead one to understand that Meredith was sexually assaulted by Rudy in some way, not necessarily by penile penetration.
Ok, so now we have conflicting stories... We've been told for over a week that semen was found on a vaginal swab.
Was Rudy's DNA found on Meredith?
Has there been a mention that the rape could have been penetration by an object? (Which means any of the three, and ESPECIALLY Amanda, could have done the violating.)
So, dod Rudy just do it alone.
AK & RS had nothing to do with it, and AF was a lie???
Given that the leaked evidence against Amanda and Raffaele is all circumstancial and tenuous at best, I think we should consider the possibility that they are innocent. The only evidence we have is against Rudy.
A scenario: Rudy breaks into the house with a knife on him and begins to burgle it. Then he goes to the bathroom to relieve himself, and hears someone enter the house. He doesn't flush because he doesn't want to alert them to his presense. He quietly emerges from the bathroom and tries to sneak out, but Meredith sees him and starts freaking out, so he starts strangling her to shut her up and then does the rest of it. (I don't particularly want to rehash those details.)
Thoughts?
BD | 12.01.07 - 11:59 pm | #
very plausible.
who was the girl entering the house on cctv beforehand? amanda. did she let him in unwittingly, or not at all.
did he break into the down stairs window & AK or MK used the keys to open that bedroom door to him or for him. AH! to feed the cats or thinking it was a cat?
and AK was downstairs covering her ears & never phoned an ambulence? was she there?
and then ak just acts strange afterwards, and goes sexy lingerie shopping the day after?
she extended that to include a wild musing of WHAT could have happened, what was "possible" (as she said) to explain that pesky knife ending up in RS's kitchen (not to mention her flatmate being raped and murdered, ALL whilst AK was 'sleeping'). her emphasis and concern was not on RS per se, but on HER - SHE was sleeping, not involved, doesn't know, etc etc etc. a2
as she admited, she has 'contrasting ideas' about what might have happened that night
Good to see Loz that you're getting back on track.
[That AF business was taking you off on a tangent. For instance, I don't think there is any evidence whatsoever that AK used to go off with a kitchen knife into the Umbrian forests looking for wild mushrooms and berries!!! In her ramblings, she describes carrying a knife in a N.European town, not a rural area.] (I think you may've been watching too much Coronation Street; true, AK would make a great character for that show.)
BD your razor sharp points. all good. but why didn't sh just stick to: I was at RSs house. even under pressure?
hmmm, maybe that shows she's not so cold? I don't know *shrugs*
don't you think that if rudy knew &was in phone contact with amanda, why would he break in.
and, if you believe it, he did break in why has amanda ended up with so much money in her pocket. did she just withdraw it on the day of arrest.
it's probably untrue. maybe rudy took all the rent money.
and instead of tricking his friends AK & RS to let him in, he decided to break in & surprised MK?
Way too much lying going on for INNOCENT people.
Even without the countless lies.
Who the Hell cleaned up the mess?
Why was Rafe's footprint found in blood, yet there was no DNA evidence on his shoe...oh, maybe because he soaked them in the BLEACH that he BOUGHT when he was supposedly (by his own account) still sleeping.
If they all aren't involved in some way, I will be beyond shocked.
BTW:
http://tinyurl.com/2o8y7b
"I have received letters from fellow inmates and admirers telling me that I am hot and they want to have sex with me. I have also had insulting letters."
Just another page for the sociopath scrapbook.
the person AF is an Austtralian guy, not Zach
I'm Italian and that book cover is astounding because some days before the release of the book there was an episode in Rome which resembled the image of the cover; a man coloured the water of the Fountain of Trevi with red paint. The man said it was a futurist declaration
the American author was also stunned by this coincidence
See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5...h?
v=5vx1rRDyYNI
BD,
Who then is responsible for the magnificent cleanup afterwards? You certainly cannot mean the drug pusher RG do you? Blood was found in the downstairs flat. Only AK had the key to it. Why you might ask? Because the boyfriend of Meredith gave it to MK so that she could watch his plants and feed the cats while he was visiting his parents.
bpcl | 12.02.07 - 2:13 am | #
it depends if it was in the same room as the broken window.
http://www.italymag.co.uk/2005/n...ber-of-murders/
The report found a steep rise in the number of foreigners killed in Italy, up 28% over 2003 and accounting for a fifth of all murders committed in 2004. The murder rate among the resident foreign population stands at 7.3 per 100,000 compared to 1 per 100,000 for Italian inhabitants, it said.
Looking in greater detail at domestic murders, the report said that women were the victims in 70% of cases and that 80% of such murders were committed by men. The study found that Fridays and the weekends were the most dangerous times of the week, with 116 murders committed on a Friday last year and 110 on a Sunday.
*********
I'm shocked that 20% of murder victims in Italy are foreigners!
Zachary Nowak strikes me as a bullshitter.
maybe they are not implicating rudy because they don't know him or know of him??
but then, why would 2 innocent people implicate each other.
or is it merely what we're doing here. the police said they find x,y,z and so they are trying to wrap their heads around it?
fran - vaguely know something about fountains running red. only, not sure from where in culture.
her comes google...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/
...2197110,00.html
-italy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/engla...don/
3101732.stm
trafalga square
seems like a 'futuristic vandals' kind of thing.
Their was likely some backandforth of knives & other things between appartments. I don't know if dried skin cells could account for both Amanda's $ Meredith's Dna on the same knife. Far fetched maybe.
DLW | 12.02.07 - 3:21 am | #
yes, about this. I have always wondered how RS didn't have clothes too bloody to walk the streets.
long coat?
AK did all the errands. clothes were important for PL, like how he managed to do the crime & get back to the bar, in fresh clothes etc.
as I have said on part 1, clothes will be important
part one of this thread, comment thingy, that we moved from to here
From AK's prison diary (and Luke's link
http://tinyurl.com/2o8y7b ) :
"I sing, write and, when I have an hour of outside time, I sit with my face in the sun, so I can get a tan."
AND
"I have received letters from fellow inmates and admirers telling me that I am hot and they want to have sex with me. I have also had insulting letters."
Gosh, she makes it so easy to DISLIKE her, which I know does not equate to "guilty of murder" but yikes, how self-involed can one person be?!?! Raise your hand if you think you would have been friends with Amanda another time/another place? Yep, that's what I thought.
in the words of my son:
Why she havta be like dat???
I'm just sayin'....
come to think of it though fran, it's fruitless because the artwork would have been done by someone else.
Raise your hand if you think you would have been friends with Amanda another time/another place?
I'm just sayin'....
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 3:59 pm
**
There is a good chance Amanda's diary is a total fabrication by press or police.
I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion.
I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 4:19 pm | #
Is THAT really necessary?
Side note: Some of Loz'a comments are reminding me of Francis Ford Coppola's film, The Conversation. Where what the protagonist thinks he sees and thinks he's heard shift around in inexplicable
ways. Perhaps a viewing of this film is a good look at the metaphor of the shape-shifters in this case.
Loz, yes, clothes are important especially to RS, the "clean freak," and to Amanda who see shopping as love, sex, and antidote to death.
It must have been a huge thing for him to loan AK underwear, and for him to know she didn't have any. I've thought that RS was deliberately clothed, probably with gloves, in a way that further protected him from leaving DNA evidence. Look at his Halloween costume. Plus, gloves and scrubs would be around if he does like them since daddykins is a doctor. The fantasy of *dress up* may be a factor too, with his interest in illustrated sex-violence comics. I wonder if they found any *human* sort of porn in his place or on the computer?
The first thing I thought when we heard of Amanda's shopping was---yes, the chick's impulsive...she's come into some money. Shopping soothes her. She wants mom to take her shopping and daddy is a Macy's retail executive. Shopping is big with her. People who love her buy her things, give her money. RS didn't take her shopping so she needed to get money to include him in her shopping thing, so thereby including him in the circle of love. It's not the undies, it's the shopping as a form of intimacy.
This little affair was a big, big thing for RS. A real live dirty nasty girl to Italy with Love from the Land of Grunge. (Courtney Love refers to herself as a *dirty girl*.)
I think his one relationship could be interpreted as a sign of stability and selectivity; shorter affairs and dating are excluded, and he recalls the serious girlfriend. And, he really needs his father's approval, so he may have been very cautious (and secretive) up until Amanda. However, this limited social experience set him up for a trollop with a wallop (!)
Recent studies I've read strike a note that rings true. Fewer, longer relationships are linked to happy and longer marriages. When I run that through my own set of friends, I think it's got a lot of truth to it.
Wouldn't we love to know more about what they found in RS's apt? In a way, he's more interesting than Amanda to me.
>fran - vaguely know something about fountains running red. only, not sure from where in culture<
Doing decorative things to town fountains goes back past Renaissance to medieval..mostly for celebrations. Wine in the fountains for weddings and miliary victories.
come to think of it though fran, it's fruitless because the artwork would have been done by someone else.
Loz | 12.02.07 - 4:12 pm |
Not necessarily--looks like a cheap ass photoshop job to me. I wish I could see the back jacket copy well enough to read, and to verify the publisher. He's trying to put himself into this. The smell of money.
He somehow volunteered his services to one of the the journalists as the expert on student life in Perugia to be quoted (and then the ever-reaching echo) on how *most students* are focused.
"Hi. I'm affiiated with the university in Perugia and the students and faculty are concerned about how they are being portrayed."
"Really? Tell me more."
He's intruding. I know these kinds from the world of public relations.
He published exactly ZIP; it appears there is some sort of reference to his publishing company that has not published anything? This is a vanity press. This guy's the joker. BUT he now has succeeded, and now for a moment he's part of it, so the opportunty has been manifested.
He's intruding. I know these kinds from the world of public relations.
He published exactly ZIP; it appears there is some sort of reference to his publishing company that has not published anything? This is a vanity press. This guy's the joker. BUT he now has succeeded, and now for a moment he's part of it, so the opportunty has been manifested.
xin | 12.02.07 - 4:40 pm | #
I agree with you on this, xin. Geeez ...and 80 pages ...how hard would that be???
Andy et al
my set them free post was sarcastic
don't forget the 'magic mop' from the cottage to clean the pipe leak in the boyfriend's flat. it has loads of DNA on it and we don't know about the analysis of the pipe plumbing they removed from the boyfriend's shower in his flat.
theses clowns will probably get off lightly seeing as the italians have a foreign black guy to pin it on.
and they will both make loads of money and new kinky friends.
ah justice!
.
rob | 12.02.07 - 6:30 am | #
never heard about this magic mop thing, lol!
Rhonda: I think we have evidence right here in this thread that there are several of us who could crank it out in a couple of hours. Then find some cheap ass bookcover, launch Photoshop for a little photo editing, drop in a couple same-sized copy blocks, knock off the UPC code from the other book, and VOILA! The book that can't be published!
FREE PARIS, I MEAN, FREE AMANDA
Funny, rob.
Laura,
Of course tha vandal was arrested and had nothing to do with the murder
The recent commentary about Rudy and penetration: If he had recently had sex (thinking Rudy-AK-RS-unknown couple partying at AK's and Meredith's house), he might not be up to speed, so to speak, in being able to complete a rape--is this where the differing stories about DNA lies? Vaginal swabs showing DNA, but not from semen?
And Loz, if I remember correctly, it was reported that Rudy's attorneys said that what Meredith breathed to Rudy was not "AF" but something similar. Too many stories there, too, that create conflicting scenarios.
xin: It must have been a huge thing for him to loan AK underwear, and for him to know she didn't have any======
ah so she HAD to go shopping for knickers because she didn't have any clothes????
OK hmmm
the point on clothes I am making is how was RS involved in the murder IF he obviously maybe had to walk home to change clothes from bloodied ones to clean ones.
and I don't think RS is that OCD, I have seen a 'scruffy' picture of him tbh, relaxed, not coming out of questioning or whatever.
either:
*he brought a change of clothes
* was only involed in the clean-up
* walked home with bloodied clothes un-noticed because of quiet streets or coat
* washed his clothes at the crime house, if the washer combines a dryer
http://tinyurl.com/3a4ak6
If AK is innocent, she wouldn't need to come up with new and different versions of what happened the night Meredith was murdered (. . . maybe RS put the knife in my hand while I was sleeping. . . .).
Has there been other confirmation about Rudy being caught in September trying to enter another property with a knife?
Not necessarily--looks like a cheap ass photoshop job to me. I wish I could see the back jacket copy well enough to read, and to verify the publisher. He's trying to put himself into this. The smell of money.
He somehow volunteered his services to one of the the journalists as the expert on student life in Perugia to be quoted (and then the ever-reaching echo) on how *most students* are focused.
"Hi. I'm affiiated with the university in Perugia and the students and faculty are concerned about how they are being portrayed."
"Really? Tell me more."
He's intruding. I know these kinds from the world of public relations.
He published exactly ZIP; it appears there is some sort of reference to his publishing company that has not published anything? This is a vanity press. This guy's the joker. BUT he now has succeeded, and now for a moment he's part of it, so the opportunty has been manifested.
xin | 12.02.07 - 4:40 pm | #
thank you for explaining. so a creep basically.
and his comment on publishing it 'maybe after christmas' on the blog.
was just a cruel joke too I guess, to give publicity, but cruel cos...
It also emerged yesterday that another suspect, 20-year-old Rudy Hermann Guede, had been caught breaking and entering a Perugia property in September, armed with a knife.
http://tinyurl.com/334dak
News? London Evening Standard.
I wonder if it's hit Amanda that she's stuck in jail for at least 60 more days, best scenario.
That means no holiday parties and stuck in a cell with fellow sex crime suspects (and perhaps a cop).
NO FUN!
Maybe I'l send her a Christmas card.
Foxy Knoxy
Capanne Prison
Perugia Italy
should be enough.
Buon Natale, Angelface.
Pinecone said:
"I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion."
Ouch.
pinecone is just trying to get to the truth.
perhaps things have been getting 'personal' and they needn't.
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
Commentators, perhaps? For the next time.
lol belle
You Go Pinecone!...spelling cops....look out!
OK, so I've read in several newspapers (maybe none of them newsworthy) - that the police are STILL looking for Knox's sweatshirt which she was wearing on the day of the murder - and which mysteriously went 'missing' and has never been since. The police assumed it was too blood-stained for her to keep hold of. Does anyone know if this is a 'fact', or rumour/fact?? Unless Knox makes a habit of regularly mislaying her sweatshirts - why would she have got rid of it, unless she knew it would implicate her?
xin said:
"Wouldn't we love to know more about what they found in RS's apt? In a way, he's more interesting than Amanda to me."
I'm getting more convinced that Rafe is somewhere on the autism spectrum.
Some things that point that way IMHO:
-limited experiences with the opposite sex at age 24
-fastidious about cleanliness
-self-described pursuit of "extreme experiences"
If Rafe IS on the spectrum, chances are that even if he has a genius IQ - which is certainly possible, lots of folks with ASD do - he wouldn't be able to come up with many fabrications to weave into an explanation of that night. He would be more likely to tell it like it is. Many folks with autism are often brutally honest.
Just saying'...
Xin, your comment at 4:27 about RS/AK's relationship is right on in my opinion. He's involved but until I hear definitively that he wasn't at the computer, I'm inclined to see him as more of a dupe than a premeditating thrill-killer. The shoe & print could well have been left during the clean-up. Not answering a parents phone call/email when you're stoned isn't so unusual and the next day other priorities got in the way. I'll sure be glad when the computer issue is resolved.
Nana..
I think Rudy assaulted Meredith with a finger and left behind an epithelial cell. If he'd recently had intimate contact with another person, he could have easily transferred that person's DNA also.
I think the sexual assault was done after Meredith's death because she'd been wearing jeans and there was (reportedly) no blood on her legs.
Many folks with autism are often brutally honest.
Just saying'...
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 5:54 pm | #
could you point out just where you feel he's been brutally honest???
If Meredith's death was accidental and Amanda was even partially responsible, you would think she would have been eaten alive by her "conscience" by now.
Guess she's been to busy eating cotton candy and riding the teacups to be bothered by a conscience....
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
belle | 12.02.07 - 5:49 pm
I'm not English.
Rhonda said:
"could you point out just where you feel he's been brutally honest???"
Sorry I gave the mistaken impression I thought Rafe was being brutally honest. I don't. I was just observing that IF Rafe were acting as a person with autism, which I think he just might be, he would likely find it difficult to lie, so perhaps the little we are hearing from him IS the truth. I realize he has changed his story once, but that was early on. Since then it has a been consistent.
could the rudy dna thing be red herring. to try and get him to confess to sexually assaulting her? somehow?
Like, maybe he wore a condom, and they IDd him from a bloodied fingerprint & possibly hair?
unlikely I know.
If he's got a blood fettish & was playing around with the blood from her wound, and she was in menses, and the epithlial(s) were found in meredith. Maybe it is because he was also fascinated with her menses blood?
-- sorry for the graphicness of this^^ ---
anyway, I don't like the shard theory, as why would he carry a shard of glass from the brokn window, or elsewhere, when he had a knife (if indeed this is behaviour as detailed in the fact(?) that he was arrested for breaking & entering with a knife?
soozie UK - her sweatshirt. YES clothes will be important. how did they know she had one, and if she had one why is it missing. this is potentially significant. As she has had plenty of other 'reportedly' incriminating evidence which she was not so clever to dispose of: merediths money & that knife. I guess she'll muse in her blog/prison diary that RS stole it to implicate her.
---does anyone else suspect that AK & RS don't know rhg has been arrested? and maybe even don't know who he is? or are they incriminating each other, just because of evidence linked to each other, ie the knife? OR that they do know of him & comment(ed) on him but this is not reported?---
I'm not English.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 6:03 pm | #
pinecone - if you just ignore any personal attacks like that one & don't make any yourself, they will just go away
http://web20.excite.it/foto/2861...s_Live_Spaces/
3 Its hard to tell,but my guess is, this isn't Amanda.......SO could this be poor Raffaeles only other female,that this poor boy had in his life...Not hardly I bet
I am not gregarious, so I don't need to acquire friends. However, there's a better chance I'd have been friends with Amanda than with many of the commenters in this discussion.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 4:19 pm | #
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
belle | 12.02.07 - 5:49 pm
I'm not English.
Pinecone | 12.02.07 - 6:03 pm |
No biggie, I was just having a laugh and you got to learn something too. Another jewel from me to you:
Not being gregarious and needing to acquire friends doesn't HAVE to go hand in hand with directly insulting and pushing people away.
Even if I didn't like your theory I wouldn't have opened that door, but you sent out invitations so...
"I have received letters from fellow inmates and admirers telling me that I am hot and they want to have sex with me. I have also had insulting letters."
--That Amanda Knox doesn't consider letters that say she is hot and they want to have sex with her as an insult--says a lot to me about her. She is in jail, a girl has been murdered, and she doesn't find it an insult that people just care about how hot she is and that they would want to have sex with her!!!!
LOz-- There were statements by RS camp when Rudy was first in the picture with quotes from RS saying he has no idea who Rudy is. None.
I'm getting more convinced that Rafe is somewhere on the autism spectrum.
Some things that point that way IMHO:
-limited experiences with the opposite sex at age 24 unattractive to opposite sex, cos he is a geek? cos he is weedy? cos he hasn't got good conversation. Amazed the 'IT girl' AK got with him tbh. then again, in her partying piccies from back home, the men she hung out with, just judging from piccies & being totally shallow here, seem like geeks to me too. Not geeks as in a narrow interest(s), ordumb. But geeks as in the polar opposite of 'jocks'. same for that Home vid too, all the geeky boys looking on in horror at drama queen amanda trying to act cool. seeming awkward in her presence, the one next to her anyhow was not used to 'living it up'. that was hard to watch, with that guy scalding in the background. she was cool in her 'pond' at home. but not necessarily recognisable as 'cool' to an outsider of that group
-fastidious about cleanliness not so sure about this either. seen a relaxed picture of him, (driving a top-down sports car w/ sunglasses on) looking unshaven. it's only recently maybe that he's smartened up his appearance. although I know autism doesn't come down to or necessarily affect that. and the manga comics & computers SCREAM some sort of autistic/aspergers thing about him
-self-described pursuit of "extreme experiences" ??
http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/2...lm-part-
ii.html
Steve Huff said:
"Commenters, or ‘blogmenters,’ if you will, are practically breaking news in this case"
Sorry to hear that, pinecone. BTW, "commenters" is not in the English dictionary...
belle | 12.02.07 - 5:49 pm
>http://web20.excite.it/foto/2861...s_Live_Spaces/ 3 Its hard to tell,but my guess is, this isn't Amanda.......SO could this be poor Raffaeles only other female,that this poor boy had in his life...Not hardly I bet
meman2<
Thanks for digging that one up, Meman. He looks so happy in that picture, really happy, and it occurs that he doesn't look happy in any of the others I've seen--not that I've seen him in the happiest phase of his life.
(I wonder when his mom died)
Just to chime in, and I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience with these issues, I don't think RS is on autism spectrum, to represent the oppositional types among us. Not by a long shot.
you know, it strikes me, is his arrest being kept a secret from them, for the good f the investigation?
couldn't imagine so. BUT he is in germany, away from tht prison & hearing.
they know each other are arrested, but what of RHG?
http://www.wordreference.com/def...tion/
commenters
Heads up-
This is going to be an off-topic, not-furthering-the-discussion comment, so SKIP THIS if you don't want to read my ramblings, but wanted to share it as it illustrates the sometimes brutal honesty of folks with autism:
one of my dear friends on the spectrum sees people as celebrities or famous characters they resemble. I believe it helps her remember their faces. She often blurts out who folks look like upon first meeting them, and it ain't always flattering. For me, she has long said I look like John Denver and Prairie Dawn, the Sesame Street Mumpets character.
For the record, I am neither male, not a puppet, but y'know, I CAN see a resemblance now that you mention it!
I don't know about the autism thing. Not attractive to the opposite sex.... hmmm, not true for this one. Of course, that's just based on appearance without the knowledge of his character.
It seems to me he is just as complicit in this as the others but has the advantage of Daddy, with all his money and connections. Because of that hand, he may be able to construct a better defense for himself.
White man in his native country with connections in the system = better prepared than the other two.
xin said:
"Just to chime in, and I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience with these issues, I don't think RS is on autism spectrum, to represent the oppositional types among us. Not by a long shot."
You may be right.
Although with your knowledge and experience, do you really think it's a long shot to make a connection? Do you see how Rafe's comment about seeking "extreme experiences" would fit for some folks on the spectrum?
I don't know about the autism thing. Not attractive to the opposite sex.... hmmm, not true for this one. Of course, that's just based on appearance without the knowledge of his character.
It seems to me he is just as complicit in this as the others but has the advantage of Daddy, with all his money and connections. Because of that hand, he may be able to construct a better defense for himself.
White man in his native country with connections in the system = better prepared than the other two.
belle | 12.02.07 - 6:35 pm | #
agreed that this is a lot more likely!
especially when i read (paraphrased) "his brutal honesty. he changed is story once, but since then he's been consistent"
the cynic inside me thought "lawyers".
Loz-
Exactly!
RS and AK are completely aware of what is happening with Rudy!!!
http://news.independent.co.uk/
eu...icle3182307.ece
Yesterday Raffaele Sollecito, boyfriend of Amanda Knox, Ms Kercher's flatmate, denied all knowledge of Mr Guede. But it emerged that Ms Knox in testimony to the police before her arrest had mentioned Mr Guede as one of a number of people who had visited her flat in the past.
I remember another story where RS was quoted specifically, will look for it too.
chris - that's a change for you, as you didn't think RS had mentioned RHG, or knowing him, ever.
so they DO know. why aren't they just saying, it's him, we were together at RS that night, and the forensics don't necessarily stand.
ile must have something on them, apart from their changing stories. that maybe we don't know about.
well actually, the knife is very incriminating imho. or defnitely is cause for a judge not to be satisfied of their total innocence, ven if it doesn't mean thir total involvement
LOZ-- Not a change for me at all.
RS said in response to Rudy as a suspect, that he never even heard of RUdy, did not know the guy. RS was only aware of him from the T.V. news and his lawyers. I am simply saying that RS says that he doesn't know, never knew of RUDY.
On the other hand, there are supposidley phone calls to and from RUDY and AK before and after the murder.
My theory is and still is that AK and RUDY got toghether without RS. Maybe RS in clean-up, but RS did not know he was cleaning up after a murder. The door was locked in Meredith room, so he would not see.
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 6:29 pm
am i correct in guessing that you are from the midwest?
Of course RS is a geek. But we don't have something like a geek concept in Italian culture.
I wouldn't say he is an autistic person. Maybe somebody from Italy would say just the contrary, but, imho, it is not rare that University student haven't got a so to say "fulfilling" sex experience in the first two years of studies.
from:
http://tinyurl.com/26yc6q
OR
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.co...onyone-
hes.html
Raffaele's dad: "... he's a marvelous boy".
From "Marvelous boy" blog: "many people from my college have honored themselves, but my favorite is the monster of Foligno" (the serial killer of kids)*. Oh, daddy's boy...
Il padre di Raffaele: "... è un ragazzo meraviglioso".
Dal blog del "ragazzo meraviglioso" "Molti si sono fatti onore nel mio collegio, ma quello che stimo di più è il mostro di Foligno"*. Che caro figlioletto...
****
Thanks to our friend here who told us about "Perugia-Shock" blog. Very interesting.
Has anyone here read Raffaele's blogs? Please tell us more about what they contain.
chris said to TruCryme:
"am i correct in guessing that you are from the midwest?"
LOL - Nope, you are not correct. Is your guess because of that vivid description my austistic friend gave me?? Do folks from the midwest tend to look like John Denver and Prairie Dawn?? LOL
BTW - I agree with your thinking that AK and Rudy acted perhaps without the knowledge of Rafe. Something about Rafe rings true for me. Or maybe I'm biased because I think he's autistic and I know how misunderstood ASD folks often are.
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 7:33 pm |
John Denver is from the midwest, Don't know what prarie dawn looks like, but the word prarie, is usually southern, west or midwest.
On another note, I do not think that RS is autistic, just too sheltered.
haha
yes the big a looks like the illegit daughter of Les and Cilla off Corrie!!!
she is ginger after all not blonde!!
haha
watch out people Pinecone is acting an awful lot like coyotewaits, that charming sock puppet from the previous blog.
the DNA on the 'magic mop' is very damning - if the reports are true of course.
and finally i dont think the italian prosecution had to disclose all its evidence at the hearing of the application by the defense to alter bail conditions. the prosecution only had to show enough evidence to cast the defendants as likely to flee and reasonably suspected.
their ever changing stories and the fact that they are outsiders to the jurisdiction with no family ties in perugia and who own no property or lease there makes them LIKELY TO FLEE.
dipso facto : locked down tight till this shit gets sorted out.
.
So, this might not yield a lot of material.
BUT let's look at some consistencies between the suspects statments, that is when you compare them.
RS: he says he doesn't know who RHG is.
RHG: May have cited RS as the murderer, but claims he is a stranger, just an Italian man with brown hair.
1) they claim not to know each other personally.
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I guess, as terrible as it is. I am also believing more in the necrophilia theory that RHG may have done, or else as she was helpless.
Since, it seems she put up a big fight. Too much of a fight for only 1 person to be capable? and what of the three different sizes/types of cuts.
you don't suppose RHG, if he did it all alone, could have seen her downstairs, and forced her upstairs, threatening with a piece of glass?
In that scenario though, the rape and murder seem primary motives. not money at all. And, he'd have to get the info some how or lay in wait, to know mredith was there alone, and even that he'd have time to carry out the attack uninterrupted by other HMs.
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AKs missing jumper, and why she left other incriminating evidence laying around. perhaps, yes, actually it is plasible that this was too blood-soaked or had beach spots on it & thought it would be telling-although wouldn't it take strong bleach?perhaps she just didn't think of the other evidence, forgot about it, or thought it would be found. so actually yes, the fact it is missing could be significant.
LOZ-- Not a change for me at all.
RS said in response to Rudy as a suspect, that he never even heard of RUdy, did not know the guy. RS was only aware of him from the T.V. news and his lawyers. I am simply saying that RS says that he doesn't know, never knew of RUDY.
On the other hand, there are supposidley phone calls to and from RUDY and AK before and after the murder.
My theory is and still is that AK and RUDY got toghether without RS. Maybe RS in clean-up, but RS did not know he was cleaning up after a murder. The door was locked in Meredith room, so he would not see.
chris | 12.02.07 - 7:20 pm | #
ah sorry. yes, it could explain the bathroom blood, maybe even AK said to RS it's only menses blood BUT why wouldn't he be compelled to clean that. unless he missed it? what would he think he was cleaning up after?
what of the footprint though.
if he only knew after the crime appened, what happened, maybe AK said to him she had got into an argument with MK and didn't mean it. but if he went into hr room, what would he make of the strewn clothes, you know. Why didn't he compel AK to call an ambulence?
I must admit, I don't get it.
Of course RS is a geek. But we don't have something like a geek concept in Italian culture.
I wouldn't say he is an autistic person. Maybe somebody from Italy would say just the contrary, but, imho, it is not rare that University student haven't got a so to say "fulfilling" sex experience in the first two years of studies.
fran | 12.02.07 - 7:30 pm | #
could it just be he was a late starter, and/or his first girlfriend was a long-term thing? and this accounts for the low number?
I am not saying that RS knew after the murder, what happened, and then helped with the clean up.
I think RS IF he did at all help with the clean up, did not know that he was cleaning up a murder scene. The door was looked to the scene of the crime, he did not see MK's room with her dead body.
Also, I am not trusting that the shoe print is his at this point.
meant to say Locked, not looked
The door was Locked to the scene of the crime, he did not see MK's room with her dead body.
do you really think it's a long shot to make a connection? Do you see how Rafe's comment about seeking "extreme experiences" would fit for some folks on the spectrum?
TruCryme | 12.02.07 - 6:42 pm | #
First, I think it is important to take a look at these behavorial and learning possibilities, so the discussion is a good way to think about RS and his personality.
Not an expert, nor pretending to be, but from my experience and observation--
People on the autism arc, particularly those who succeed like perhaps a Bill Gates (some similarities to those with Asperger's Syndrome) or an Andy Warhol, to mention two individuals who are known to the public, have obvious quirks in their socialization and attitudes toward others that I don't see with RS. With Gates, it's the rocking back and forth, for example, in a chair ("perseveration"--I have seen him do this), his legendary poor grooming and social skills before running into Melinda French (whom he married, although he did have a girlfriend prior--the joke in Silicon Valley was that Melinda taught him about toothbrushes and deodorant) or a callous disregard for the emotional impact he has on others (Andy Warhol, and Edie Sedgwick, for example, my comment based on _Edie_ the book, not _Factory Girl_, the film).
Andy and Bill are both exceptionally creative in the sense of being out-of-the-box thinkers, which may account for their success, and thus, socialization. I think a person on the functioning end of the autism arc has trouble with imagination--they cannot play dress-up, for example, or impulsively *pretend to be a frog*.
If this person were able to organize themselves enough to have a blog (Andy had *Interview* magazine, but never did any of the work (original thinking and writing, rather than plagariam is a problem--in fact, look at Andy's art...he was an illustrator drawing shoes at first, then he move to Campbell's soup cans, and the rest is history), that person would be more specific, and would probably not know what to volunteer or not, the commentary would be less politically correct:
I like to kill cats.
Someday I want to see someone be murdered.
They are much less social (Andy traveled in a pack, so he had a buffer; so did Bill after coming up with a hot business idea), and the idea of meeting someone at a concert, and pursuing that interest would be pretty far-fetched. Both Andy and Bill had/have strong relationships with their families. We don't however have any/much evidence of RS having many social relationships which MAY infer a learning, personality thing slightly related to an autism arc person. More probably, he's shy, and a bit withdrawn having lost his mom before becoming an adult, and being a focused, responsbile student. (Bill dropped out of Harvard in one year, and Andy graduated from Carnegie Mellon.) It's OK to be shy and a bit reserved, however,once AK enters the picture, he has apartner, a lover, who encourages him to adjust his bound
aries. Had he not run into Amanda he very well may have lived a relatively quiet and normal life, with close family relationships, like his parents.
PS. Frankly, although he's been too chatty in the past, I like the way RS's dad LOVES him. We aren't hearing these sorts of defensive, affectionate comments from Amanda's two moms and two dads.
Daddy S may be a bit over-protective, but he's dealing with the situation rather normally--a loving parent defends him and then brings all his resources to help. He KNOWS (no matter what) that his son is not a natural born killer.
I had thought Rudy was drug dealer to both Rafe and Amanda, but I guess not. I'd love to know what Amanda told Rudy to get him over there on cleanup patrol.
xin- Thank you for your articulate explanation of your thoughts re:Rafe being on the autism spectrum.
Interesting - I had not ever heard mention of Andy Warhol perhaps being ASD. I'll have to read about that more. Bill Gates - of course. He jumps on a trampoline too! But I think that and rocking are not really "perservation" as such. Both those activities are ways to calm OR stimulate an over-active OR under-active sensory system, which is where the need for "extreme experiences" might fit it. ASD folks commonly have sensory system dysfuntion, and thus have a need to rev it up