Fascinating! I look forward to more information pro or con in the future.
Thanks for writing this up. It does seem like something out of a Kolchak episode.
They really didn't give any details about locations of the graffiti.
I would think the FBI would have been all over this one.
I'd be curious to see the stats on drowning deaths over the past 25 years-- especially among that age group and in those areas. A spike could indicate an anomaly
like murder.
As for gangs... I suppose it's not too far of a stretch to go from serial violence to serial killing.
Two notable serial killer gangs:
Shankill Butchers in Ireland c. 1970s
Zebra Killers in SF c. 1972-74
I would have to see a notable similarity in the smiley faces to be convinced.
I'm glad you mentioned the Zebra Killers, A.E. They managed to stick around a while, too. The Zebra Killers were motivated by a racist ideology, if I remember right. Frequently, some sort of underlying ideology motivates a "group" or "gang" of killers.
What the hell could the motivation for the Smiley Face Gang be?
This is just WAY TOO similar to not be related:
http://www.fox23news.com/news/lo...64-
b8cd59440f60
Joshua Szostak just this month!!
Some heavy lifters need to get on this case, these scumbags have been out there for a while now and its time to nail them.
This theory provides a straw that grieving and perplexed families will grasp for-- tonight's local news had this to offer:
http://www.whiotv.com/news/16066...613/
detail.html
However, the body of this man was never found, and there were no reports of the "smiley face" graffito.
It all seems a bit amorphous to me, but who knows?
I thought BTK lived in Kansas
Larkin, did you mean "straw man?"
I read a novel that used a plot similar to this story, I remembered tonight. Straw Men, by Michael Marshall. Read part of the Publishers Weekly editorial review:
As Ward and his CIA buddy slowly unravel the mystery surrounding Wards parents, FBI agent Nina Baynam and former LAPD homicide detective John Zandt search for the elusive killer. Their paths cross when a series of connections is made between the victims and a bizarre cult known as The Straw Men...
I knew the Smiley Face Gang sounded like fiction. I've already read a book with a similar idea embedded in the plot, after all. I read Marshall's book right after it came out 6 years ago.
I thought BTK lived in Kansas
sisupiera
He did, sisupiera -- I had a brain fart because I was thinking about a case I'm following in Utah. I fixed it -- thanks.
Steve
Thanks for writing this Steve! I really was interested in hearing other people's opinions on this one. IDK what to think.
"While most local investigations focus on where a body was recovered, Gannon and Duarte wanted to know where the body went into the water. If they could figure out that location, the detectives believed they'd be able to gather evidence from the actual crime scene.
In city after city, the detectives found a smiley face painted somewhere at the crime scene. The color of paint used and the size of the faces varies, but the detectives are convinced it is a sick signature claiming responsibility for the homicide.
The detectives found the smiley faces in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Wisconsin and Iowa.
Gannon and Duarte also came to the surprising conclusion that more than one person is involved in the murders.
"Because there's such a wide range of states the killings are through," Gannon said today in an exclusive interview on "Good Morning America." "Besides the fact that we have multiple victims on the same night."
At the crime scene of a drowning in Michigan, Gannon and Duarte discovered grafitti that they believed was written by the killers, but were puzzled by a word they hadn't seen before.
"We found 'sinsiniwa,' which was very suspicious at the time," said Gannon.
Then the detectives found the strange word in Iowa, where they were investigating the drowning death of 24-year-old Matt Kruziki.
Bloodhounds tracked Kruziki's scent to an intersection near the Mississippi River. The detectives believe that is the location where the killers slid Kruziki's body in the water — it was at Sinsiniwa Avenue."
http://tinyurl.com/6xpgje
So at each "crime scene", (designated by the place the detectives believe the bodies were placed/thrown into the water), there was a smiley face spray painted. That's what gets me. Only someone there when the body went into the water would know where to paint the smiley face. How many smiley faces are painted on areas surrounding these areas? Are there more then one? Could I find one on bridges across the country? The fact that they had more then one death in one evening with the same signature also raises the hairs. But I have to admit to feeling like Steve in that it seems so improbable based on history.
IDK if I buy into their being 40 victims. In fact, I find that number hard to believe, but there are too many cases in the same general area not to have some kind of common denominator beyond alcohol.
NHKC- From your article: "It's still unclear why Szostak's cell phone was found near a stolen DEC vehicle."
This is another part of the detectives case theory. In many of the cases items belonging to the victims are found in the opposite direction of the body of water they are later found in, presumably left to throw people off the trail.
I do agree with many people who have said that had this been a bunch of girls dying this same way the attention to these cases would be ten fold.
another serial gang murder case, Jakkal Sutar, 1976-77, involved five college students killing for the THRILL of it.
http://potoba.blogspot.com/2008/
...thalipeeth.html
I have to admit that I'm tempted to drive around the area where Justin Gaines was last seen here in the Atlanta area and see if I note any smiley faces.
First, Steve, thank you. I saw this headline on CNN.com, and was peeved because it was a video link only (no sound card at work). So, of course, I bop over to this blog, and you're covering it. 
Second -- sorry, one of my pet peeves -- a theory is something that's been *proved*. If a conjecture has not yet been proved, it's a *hypothesis*. By calling an unproved conjecture a "theory", we give it more credence than it deserves. Okay. Minor peeve ranting done (though you should hear me yelling at the TV when Mythbusters mixes the words up, too, and they should know better :D).
I'm with you on this one, though. I doubt it's a gang. Serial killers have traveled before; it's entirely likely that this is one person who travels a lot.
It seems to me that the retired detectives in the case are making connections where they might not exist. Like, if you really look for smiley face graffitti within a range of 100 yards of ANYTHING you could probably find it...and gettng drunk and falling in a body of water probably isn't that rare among college kids. Usually, your friends fish you out and you have a funny story to tell, but if you're walking alone, late at night...
"it's entirely likely that this is one person who travels a lot."
Chris, you're saying you think it's one killer? I'm still closer to the other Steve's line of reasoning above -- "[getting] drunk and falling in a body of water probably isn't that rare among college kids."
I think the problem with the detectives hypothesis is they do not adress the "why" factor. Secondly, they do not address similar cases of missing men that have yet to be found, or have been found, but not in water, but all other criteria fits.
Has anyone considered it might not be "the killers" posting the smiley face, but someone else? There is not a single documented case of a serial killer using "drowning" as a way of exacting death to their victim.
Chris- I will now use "hypothesis" from now on! lol! I have those same pet peeves about things. Steve now has me totally annoyed with people who insist on calling their comments "blogging". (Greta being the most famous among them.)
Blink34- The detectives did address part of what you mentioned about men who go missing under the same circumstances, (Justin Gaines and Brian Shaffer for instance), and are never recovered. They hypothesize that the men who are never found who may be linked may have had body trauma from possibly putting up a fight, and therefore are not drowned because it would ruin the "accidental drowning" COD. They also think these may be bodies that have, for some reason, just not turned up in the water, possibly being washed out to an area never to be found for example.
Steve- I'm w/ ya on wanting to go look for smiley faces. I want to know the odds on that one. If it was a more complex signature I'd be more willing to believe this was organized, but a smiley face is so simple and common. Also, why is it that there is a concentration of these cases in certain areas and not across the country? Lots of college campuses or bars are located near bodies of water. I wish we had the stats on this to compare across the nation.
Blink34- If the smiley faces are done by random people then it would make sense, but I don't think someone is specifically going back to the crime scenes and leaving them since they are in different states.
I wonder if they have done any paint testing on the smiley faces to see if they can at least link some of them.
Steve said: I thought BTK lived in Kansas
sisupiera
He did, sisupiera -- I had a brain fart because I was thinking about a case I'm following in Utah. I fixed it -- thanks.
Steve
***
Oh My, if it's the one I think it is...You have my email addy (Wink,Wink).
Emerson- Yes I agree they have adressed those cases in part, I was more referring to what particular info they have within those that ties them to the others, in their opinion, other than the obvious.
Without question, it does not make sense that "a person" would travel from state to state and suffer permanent index finger damage, thus the network issue is plausible, imo.
For the record, there were 22 smiley faces and 6 smilies with horns, I believe the six with horns are all red, others vary.
I sense in all of this the fallacy of inductive reasoning. i.e. The scene of each disappearance sports a "smiley face" thus the smiley face must be the signature of a gang of murderers.
It makes as much sense as
1. Serial killers eat cheerios for breakfast.
2. You eat cheerios for breakfast.
Thus, you must be a serial killer. (When in fact, both are simply cereal killers.)
I wish I could say I meant Straw Man, Steve, but I haven't read the book. Of course "straw man" would work in the traditional sense as well. I just can't take this notion seriously until I see that these detectives have something more substantive than grasping at straws in the wind.
At WS last night there was a little bit of discussion regarding the statistics of drowning. Absolutely it's a likely cause of death for young males. What I find interesting though is when you remove from the numbers, the fact that most of the drownings in the statistical numbers are in warmer weather months, involve waters sports, and is in the presence of others. Then it seems to me that the likely hood of a college age male deciding to go on a swim at 2am in a freezing river highly unlikely. IMO, we just shouldn't see this many of those.
Also, from what I have gathered. There were 22 smiley faces. Nine had horns drawn on them. The first one was located when investigating Chris Jenkins. So we have 22 smiley's out of 40 cases. IMO, if there is a serial Killer gang, LE shouldn't exclude a case based on whether a smiley is found near a scene or not, as not all the scenes have smiley's.
When the detectives say that some of the deaths happened on the same night, are they talking about when the young men disappeared, or when they drowned? I believe that in some of the cases, there was evidence which would indicate a significant time lapse between the last sighting and the actual drowning.
Even if some of the drownings are connected, I think it is far more likely to have been at the hands of one killer, or maybe a dominate killer who exerts some kind of control over a helper or two. Maybe killer triplet brothers named Darrell who were the result of inbreeding; born in the '60's to parents who were first cousins on LSD. They'd have to use the normal-looking little sister/cousin to get the victim out of the bar, though.
One article said that 12 other symbols were also found. Could they all be emoticons? Seems to me that bored teens who aren't gangbangers might spraypaint emoticons in remote areas near water. I guess creepy sociopathic serial killers might do the same thing.
I'd like to believe the investigators are on the right track, but so many variables leave me wondering.
This week in Hamilton Ohio, a young woman headed home from a night at the bar tried to cross a creek. She tripped, fell, and drowned. They aren't necessarily "going swimming." Just being foolish.
"In Scott Jenkins's case, the water in his body was tested to find out where he'd been thrown (or fallen) in."
It's Chris Jenkins, not Scott.
Shit. Thank you, Big Huge Al. I'm overextended, I think -- two stupid goofs in one post. *blushes*.
I'm a bit on the fence regarding a gang or killing club being involved here. I'm still waiting to hear more info from Gannon and Duarte about that.
I feel the same as you Susan. I feel it's maybe 3 perps working together and that when looked at more closely the 40+ cases can be culled down to maybe only the 22 that have smiley's.
RE: Larkin | 04.30.08 - 10:52 am
******
Oh very true it happens. That's why I think the cases could be culled down more. However, many of the rivers involved are large and already have a pedestrian barrier of some sort. Such as a promenade type walkway, then a retaining wall with steps leading down to the river edge, then several feet of large sharp rocks before the rivers edge.
I've gone fishing at dams and rivers where they use these large rocks. And there is a reason for that. They are very difficult to walk on. You are more likely to break an ankle or get your foot caught in between the rocks than to fall in.
Why not look at crime scenes that have rocks?
Sorry to be fascetious, but have they even concluded that these smileys were done by the same person, and if they were if even one of them is conclusively linked to an actual death?
A "smiley face" is still too broad to be a linking factor. The whole story reads like a plot line for CSI: New York, the least of the Bruckheimer efforts.
you have to admit though...the sinsinua (or however you spell that word) grafiti was a little..um....perplexing seeing as it was found hundreds of miles away from a separate incident that the dicks think is connected.
I live in Minneapolis and have been to many of the places mentioned in the Chris Jenkins story, including the bar he was kicked out of and the bridge he was supposedly tossed from. It is my understanding that the Minneapolis Police Department has a suspect or suspects in his murder, but not enough evidence to charge him/them. If there truly is a group of killers, the suspect or suspects in the Jenkins case are possibly linked to this group. I can't remember the name of one of the suspects, but he is currently in prison for a murder that happened in Minnesota. If someone here wants to research this angle, please do so.
Jaramy Alford is the name.
I can tell you one thing about Jaramy Alford. His parents can't spell!
the urban dictionary states that the definition of BUZZKILL is something that spoils or ruins an otherwise enjoyable event; especially when in relation to a drunk or drug induced high.
Also, I just sent this to Steve via contact form:
BIG IF this group were to be so nationally widespread it obviously was not one person recruiting other serial murders randomly around the country. (ANOTHER BIG) IF, this is infact a real murder group I could see it being a criminal subgroup WITHIN A PREVIOUSLY EXISTING GROUP like a fraternity. ~snip~
The rest of my thoughts are too inflamatory to post on what kind of prexisting groups I had in mind when I sent that to Steve~o.
I just feel that to just laugh off the smiley faces and drunks falling in water we are no better than the LE that did the similar brushing off.
Two seasoned and decorated dicks have spent their time and money....AND LOTS OF TIME AND MONEY, in this. I do not think it should be taken lightly at all. It truly is shocking and unbelievable and the smiley face crap is icing on a very strange cake indeed!
Sometimes it IS a zebra.
Do you think Gannon would mortgage his home and ten years of his retirement to go zebra hunting?
I have researched this issue fairly thoroughly, and it was my conclusion that he is an informant in this case as an attempt to get a better deal on his murder conviction, for which he is doing life.
However, if memory serves, he and his younger brother were caught attempting to dump their victim's car in the river following his murder and attempted cover up via arson. The victim was their roomate.
I'm not buying the gang thing. BUT it seems like fairly smart, young white men end up dead in water after drinking than most people. Then again, maybe those cases just get more coverage than others, or maybe some of these guys are just more prone to drinking heavily - to deal with the stress of familial expectations, or the workload, or.... ??
Off-topic but: Szostak's disappearance has always bothered me, and my heart breaks for his family, hardcore. The second autopsy also ruled it a case of accidental drowning, but the whole story just seems so bizarre.
I know this will not sound right, but I can't think of a way to phrase it so it does, but a part of me wishes they'd found something because at least then, there'd be a possibility of answers for his family at some point.
Whether the deaths are linked or not is a questions probably best answered by a mathemician or a statistician or an actuary than by law enforcement. I'm a retired investigator & an amateur statistician & I don't have all the facts but even before I knew about the smiley face graffiti I thought the # of drownings of yong men w/lots of similarities was too coincidental to swallow whole
Nursebeeme-
I agree completely. I just really wish they had gone through a PR firm first- as ridiculous as that sounds, it would have, imo, significantly helped their cause.
richard...you need to check out shadow's statistical angle on this case(s). After you look at it let us know what you think
http://crimsonshadows.net/compon...pper/Itemid,27/
Richard-
I believe Dr.D. Lee Gilbertson, who is the third investigator on the case, is a logistical probability and Statistics Expert, and either former or current Professor of same.
"I have researched this issue fairly thoroughly, and it was my conclusion that he is an informant in this case as an attempt to get a better deal on his murder conviction, for which he is doing life."
Perhaps someone with Steve's internet investigation skills can find out whether or not these Alford brothers had an online presence, and if they can be connected to a group/subculture that could be tied to the so-called murders. If the elder Alford is an informant, where did he hear about Chris Jenkins and what did he say about his murder?
richard...this is the article shadow wrote that has her statistical take to go with the map
http://crimsonshadows.net/conten...ent/view/95/49/
Big Huge Al (love typing that, btw.)
that's a great suggestion. As far as how he got into the Chris Jenkins case as an informant, which is my opinion, not a stated fact that I am aware of, has not been made public.
Minn. PD has acknowledged speaking with him, but that's it.
http://www.myspace.com/ja221429
I guess he spells it "Jeramy."
I searched "Jaramy Alford" and found an interesting snippet from an article:
"Jaramy and Luis Alford say they're more than brothers. They're best friends, and when Luis was 14, he moved from Iowa to live in the Twin Cities area with his older brother, who became his surrogate father. But Luis Alford followed his brother into a life of drug addiction and sometimes homelessness that led them to seek temporary shelter with Douglas Miller in his New Brighton mobile home. On ... (Wed, 24 Jan 2007 03:40:09 GMT)"
I tried to access the rest, but it was no longer available.
I find the relationship between the brothers interesting. It seems to fit the pattern I jokingly suggested in my previous comment:
"Even if some of the drownings are connected, I think it is far more likely to have been at the hands of one killer, or maybe a dominate killer who exerts some kind of control over a helper or two. Maybe killer triplet brothers named Darrell..."
Big Huge Al- it seems you are correct in spelling the name "Jaramy".
Yeesh- Hot off the Press, unfortunately:
http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/...4f0aff9&
rss=112
This guy, from St. Paul Minn, goes missing the weekend (4/27) the detectives are in town, day before the NY press conference and junket, IN HIS COSTUME worn for a costume party, found in a pond on campus (4/30).
Chris Jenkins, the flagshig case to this theory, was found in his Halloween costume, an Indian.
this was an interesting read. before reading this site, i read a related story on the local news site...
http://www.thepittsburghchannel....785/
detail.html
“The scene of each disappearance sports a 'smiley face' thus the smiley face must be the signature of a gang of murderers.”
Indeed Larkin. This is a classic logical fallacy: Non Sequitur
There could be a true connection here, but more connective information is needed before considering this to be fact. It warrants exploration, as Steve’s blog states, but until there is more proof, mark me on the skeptical side too.
Another piece of info from Gannon and Duarte that I recalled this morning is the fact they believe some of the victims were targeted over the internet. Facebook? Myspace? Or what about gaming such as Xbox live? At WS we discussed a game called Manhunt that features "The Smiley Face Gang". Google and youtube it and tell me what you think.
Regarding:Big Huge Al | 04.30.08 - 12:10 pm | #
******
Thanks for the Myspace link. Notice how he neglects to mention he's serving life in prison for murder!
How the hell do you get to build a myspace page as a lifer?? The murder was brutal, that's an outrage.
Blink, I agree! I love that under occupation he says he's a tutor, ordained minister.
Yes, and under Religion it says:
Christian- other
I've never posted here before, but as a former crime reporter (and journalist still) I think the "smiley face killers" are like the satanic sex cults of the 1980s - they don't exist. Next thing you know we'll have people writing books claiming they recently recovered repressed memories of belonging to the smiley face gang.
BINGO. You nailed it Melanie. I almost brought up "satanic panic," but I was running long enough as it was.
I am still not convinced this is not a zebra guys. Look who was just found in a POND this morning!
http://tinyurl.com/64rggb
Yes, I provided a link on it above-He was dressed as Shakespear no less-
Chris, you're saying you think it's one killer? I'm still closer to the other Steve's line of reasoning above -- "[getting] drunk and falling in a body of water probably isn't that rare among college kids."
True; I was just tossing out possibilities. For that matter, drowning even WITHOUT being drunk is probably common among college kids. I went to school at Ohio University, at Athens, OH. There was a bridge that crossed the Hocking River...a very shallow river that you could wade across in the middle of summer...and it wasn't uncommon for folks to try to dive off that bridge.
Please note the "try". At least one such attempt ended in the idiot breaking his neck.
I can't help but think that there does seem to be a few too many deaths reported in this manner when it seems like there would be so many other likely causes of death in these circumstances.
Drinking and driving, alcohol induced homicide/assault, alcohol poisoning, combining the use of drugs with alcohol, etc., all seem the more obvious candidate for cause of death. Are drowning statistics higher than expected versus these more “normal” alcohol induced deaths?
Even if these students have managed to avoid all of these causes of death I can
’t help but wonder if these students who have left to find their way homes might have been more likely to be hit by a car due to inattentiveness or depending on the geography of the area stumble into the woods versus a pond, river, lake, etc. and simply get lost. Or pass out somewhere and stumble home in the morning.
Chris, Your own example mentions that diving off the bridge is a "summertime" activity. IMO, comparing that type of activity here is like comparing apples and oranges.
Please keep in mind that the typical set up situation for a water related accident does not apply to these cases. Most water accidents happen in the warm summer months, while involved in a water sport and in the presence of others. None of what I just mentioned apply to these cases. Again, who's going to willingly go near freezing water at 2am? Oh sure, I'm sure some of those cases are suicides or accidents. But all of them?
It's my understanding that there have been accounts of two "victims" drowning on the same night, with the catch being that they were states away at the time of their drownings.
While I'm not hopping into the killer gang/frat boat just yet, something here doesn't float right with me.
Don't know who has had a chance to see the GMA segment on this, but if not, here it is:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/st...=4738621&
page=1
If you can overlook the idea that Kristy Peele (sp) clearly thought she was auditioning/interviewing for a job, you'll see that there is some screwed up stuff going on here.
Here's an interesting article from Feb. 06 that brings up this issue and touches on the subject of serial killers at work here...
http://www.startribune.com/local...l/
11590011.html
Could this be an urban legend that's just finally getting national attention?
I was hoping I would find you writing about this story... it's just so bizarre.
Before the Smiley Faces came about, true crime bloggers were calling this the I-94 Corridor murders. I live in Minneapolis, we've been saying this for the last few years.
Hi all-
Long time listener, first time caller here. This case is really fascinating - but I don't know if I buy it yet. It reminds me a bit of the Satanic Panic of the 1980s - lots of sensational "maybes" but little evidence yet.
One thing I wanted to add - Steve mentioned wanting to drive around and look for a smiley face near a local drowning scene. I thought, if was in his area and liked messing with people, I could go paint one there right now. Which is what I betcha will happen in some future drownings. They should never have released photos of the smiley faces.
Have to admit I was oblivious to the "Satanic Panic" of the 80's-
How is that like this issue?
I guess the question is, what type of evidence would turn a sensational maybe into evidence for most?
bbmcrae,
I agree with you about keeping the photos of the smiley faces undisclosed, but they seem pretty desperate for any information that could come from sharing the drawings. Even further, for such a big claim to be made, I am willing to bet that there is some other detail(s) and similarities that have NOT been made public.
Blink34,
Short of DNA or someone coming forward with other information that only the killer/someone close to the killer may know, probably not much. There are going to be tons of skeptics, but I will agree with the school of thought that says these skeptics probably would be numbered considerably less if the victims were FORTY young women instead of FORTY young men.
Luke-
Agreed on both counts-
I guess then the "mystery gang" is smarter than we think to pick the group less more likely to draw skeptics.
The Satanic Panic was the hysteria accompanying many cases like the McMartin Preschool trial, where innocent people where accused of being part of a Satanic cult that practiced horrific sexual abuse on children. The only problem was there was no actual evidence any of the increasingly absurd crimes they were charged with actually happened. There was a belief by many (which is still hanging in there) that there was an organized network of Satanists in our schools, police departments, and government who abused and even sacrificed thousands of children. Again, the only problem was there was never a single piece of evidence. (This didn't stop a high-quality journalist like Geraldo Rivera from fanning the flames of hysteria with a TV special called "Satan's Underground"). My own sister-in-law, a born-again Christian and lovely human being, once told me about how Satanists recruit kids in public schools. (I obviously missed that list - I really was an underachiever!) That was a long time ago and she has never mentioned it since.
I made the connection because I see this as possibly the same kind of boogeyman-type of story. Scary and incredible if it's true, and the kind of conspiracy some people latch onto even if it's just an urban legend.
I'm not saying these drownings aren't connected. We have one definite homicide and a few odd connections. But I'm skeptical. I wouldn't start looking for for an organized, police-taunting murder cult straight out of a Jerry Bruckheimer show until I see more evidence.
Evidence would be signs of blunt force trauma, traces of drugs, signs of a struggle, anything that would prove that the bulk of these cases weren't just poor guys who were drunk and slipped. How about a strange vehicle seen shadowing them or riving away from the scenes?
Also, I'd love to see national statistics on drownings. Are more healthy young men really drowning than other groups? If you only watch cable news, you might think the only people that go missing are attractive young white women.
So, I'm totally hooked on this story. But waiting for the proof.
This case really is the stuff a conspiracy theorist dreams of.
If I was to think along the "gang" route, I would look at college fraternities, secret societies, businesses located in various cities /chains, and ESPECIALLY military bases/stations.
I would suggest that this gang is driven by either a thrill kill mentality or some ideology known only to those in this gang.
I would lean towards a religious ideology, because of the symbolic nature of submerging the victims (baptism/removal of sin.)
Yes, water could be simply a means to destroy DNA, but I am willing to bet that if a gang exists, water is more important than being simply a dumping area.
This would make a Hell of a lot more sense if the victims were addicts, prostitutes, a single ethnicity, or of a particular sexual preference.
* It's a HUGE can of worms, but I wonder how many of the 40 victims were gay?
Luke-
Not a one...
Not even a rumor, mostly the antithesis: lady-lovin, handsome jocks. Pardon the line steal from "Sixteen Candles":
Real Oily Bo Hunks.
Blink34,
Which means 1/2 of them, give or take.
LOL. Maybe, if I didn't think it was the symbol of these guys and their virility that they are after.
When I first read the smiley face article I thought of a case Ive been following for a while now. Some crimene.ws members may remember me posting about it.
"Jesse Ross, of Belton, Mo., was last seen early Tuesday at a party at the Sheraton Chicago Hotel & Towers, 301 E. North Water St.
A student at the University of Missouri at Kansas City, Ross had been participating in a student United Nations conference at the hotel.
He never returned to his room at the Four Points Sheraton, 630 N. Rush St. He is believed to have disappeared about 2 a.m"
http://www.amw.com/missing_perso...se.cfm?
id=42565
"
Yes, he stayed at the same hotel as another possible related case a year earlier, Matt Soumakis
once again...did everyone hear about the kid found in the pond this morning? He fit the profile again.
If you check out shadow's statistical analysis (I linked it earlier) the national drowning average (including cause which is usually boating, swimming, diving, accidents) is skewed in certain areas that we are looking at here.
Blink....amen. I agree with you when you said this: --------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Have to admit I was oblivious to the "Satanic Panic" of the 80's-
How is that like this issue?
I guess the question is, what type of evidence would turn a sensational maybe into evidence for most?
"
This KIND OF fits that same scare...and it also KIND OF is a horse in zebra stripes.
And trust me...I am not riding on this wagon yet...but I cannot refute the claims either when looking at statistical data locally and nationally.
To do a reliable statistical analysis it seems to me that you need information on the following:
1. Male college students who were found unconscious but alive on, say, a lawn, in a bed, along the road or whatever. If you pass out and fall into the water, you die. If you pass out on the lawn or on the sofa in the frat house, you may be found and at least won't drown.
2. Male college students found dead but not in the water.
The profiling of the victims is, to me, a bit silly. Most college students these days are "smart" and "dedicated" etc. The non-athletic ones spend their Fridays and Saturdays either studying or guzzling Mountain Dew and playing D&D all night. The fatties don't even get invited to the parties from which the smart and athletic students disappear.
I am keeping an open mind, but I don't see a huge pattern here. A couple of the cases might be related, but not all 40 and certainly not the 100+ that are being "linked" on certain "sleuthing" sites.
annie,
look at the link I posted from Shadow. She did JUST THIS THING in 2006.
Emperical data. Raw data compared to national averages with deviants and the whole logic thing (I still have flashbacks from stats in my MSN program LOL).
It is often hard to keep an open and objective mind in the light of sociopathic violence as we all well know here. I cannot fathom the depth and breadth of gannon's previously published claims. It is out of this world and just as Steve said, like a good fictional horror story.
When taking into consideration the stats, the locational clusters, the grafiti, and the dedication of two retired, decorated, intelligent officers who have sunk their complete lives into the justice of this...I simply cannot turn my head.
I think G&D have MUCH more to say and much more evidence on this that they did not expose in the breaking story. What they have so far, however, is like a worm on a hook. Perhaps baiting LE and FBI is finally, after ten years, the only way they feel they can save other students from the same demise and crack this one for good.
ten years investigating and Gannon waited until NOW. He has more. I am just going to sit back and wait a bit. I think he just may be onto something and I will give him the professional distance for him to bring his plan to fruition (he obviously has a plan in this and perhaps it is very close to cracking wide open so he can then FINALLY retire and be free of this burden he has carried for years...since 1997).
Auntie Ruth, I think the best comparison would be colleges all over the U.S. From GMA and other places comments repeatedly state that this is not a phenom on their campus. However, that isn't exactly a scientific study. lol.
I also have to wonder about the rest of the population. Let's pick a high risk group. How many drunken homeless people are drowning?
I can understand skepticism regarding Gannon and Duarte's theories. But IMO, the stats I've seen so far tell me there is something wrong here and it's way beyond a simple getting drunk and having an accident explanation. Women have their drinks tainted with GHB everyday leading to kidnapping, rape and murder. I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that this could happen to a man.
I think we might want to take the emphasis off the "college students" and place it more in the "college age looking" as there are several in the possibility pool that are former students or not yet college, or none of the above. For me, GPA thing is almost a given. I have no stats to quote, just my feeling that in general, high achievement is synonymous with active, well liked, attractiveness whether male or female.
And for some of my friends that were all of those except academically, they were well liked enough to get somebody to tutor or take their exams.
I'm not on the inside, but I think focusing on the high GPA can be a red herring here, imo.
Check this out--Just broke today...
"ALBANY, N.Y. — Josh Szostak’s father is speaking on camera for the first time since a second autopsy was conducted on his son — and there’s a new hook to the story that has fueled further speculation.
We met up with Bill Szostak at the Port of Albany, the place where Albany police believe Josh entered the water back in December.
Today at that site, Bill Szostak noticed a smiley face at that location for the very first time. The smiley face was found on a tree near the water, and it
’s a similar marking found at multiple crime scenes investigated by two retired New York City detectives who believe there are connections to a number of “accidental drowning” cases involving college students around the country."
HOLY COW, WE CAN STOP WONDERING IF SOMETHING IS REALLY UP HERE!!
I was holding out on posting this until I could see someone verify whether it was new or there before.
I look forward to seeing that info.
amen blink and suziq.
The station that aired (and helped investigate) this story has been along for the ten year ride.
The investigative reporters at that station also seem commendably skeptical but also cannot refute the so far disclosed data of G&D.
This is newly plowed ground here. I will sit back and watch the seedling sprout. If it is nothing I can drive on and plant a row of sure~to~germinate beans.
My nose tells me that this hybrid plant has some roots.
~of course, my opinion only~
You mentioned the Manson family.
Somebody upthread mentioned the Zebra Killers.
Another precedent could be the Chicago Rippers:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/seri...pers/
index.html
nursebeeme-
trust your nose.
http://tinyurl.com/5a5qbn
That's the link from NHKC's post. It shows the picture of the smiley face. Problem here is that now anyone could go out and paint that smiley face after another death, so who knows if it is relevant.
I am bothered that Josh's cell phone was found near a stolen car. His death in particular seems very suspicious and I can't understand why LE would be closing it so quickly.
Nurse- Good to "see" you again! I've missed the shadow people! lol! Question for you: What drugs metabolize in the system the most quickly that are typically used to knock people unconscious? I can't remember.
Emmers! Hello you awesome friend! Oh my Gosh! Turn around now! I think a shadow person is trying to steal the lip gloss out of your purse lol...!
Emmers, as for drugs that metabolize quickly...well there are many...but I bet any money that the drugs used in these cases were from vets or procured via the underground internet pharmacy.
As per the didactic evidence trails...it was stated per Gannon et al, that they planted it in an oposite direction of the place they put the bodies in the water to further discombobulate the investigation.
Bink....my nose is smelling a rat...what say you? Blink, I love your posts at websleuths. I wish I could post there. For some reason whenever I try to sign up it states that I am banned....yet I have never been a member there.
SuziQ! Are you out there too woman? I miss you! What do you think of all this stuff?
And hello to Luke, RobertM, and my other long~time friends that I have met thanks to Steve.
Above all.........thanks steve.
I know anyone could have gone and done that smiley face, I accept that reality, but the wallet and/or cell phone and stolen car deal add up to too much.
How do you go from the Bayou to the Hudson with no one seeing you act like an ass?
Doesn't happen.
You got a live one here.
Oh yeah, and how about this slightly identical occurence...
October 16, 2005
On the evening of Friday, October 7, Albert Campbell was laughing and talking with friends over drinks at the "Cactus Grill Cantina Restaurant" in Potsdam, N.Y. Around 9:00, he decided to walk home. That was the last time anyone saw Albert Campbell alive.
The 22-year-old Clarkson University grad student vanished into thin air. All anybody could determine was that he never made it home -- which was odd since his apartment was only a block away. Scores of people searched the Clarkson campus, downtown Potsdam and other areas of St. Lawrence County with no success.
Then on Sunday morning, Albert Campbell's body was recovered about a mile from the Cactus Grill. His remains were pulled from the Raquette River.
Authorities determined Campbell's death was an accident but police say they're unsure how he found his way into the river. "Alcohol seems to have played a significant factor," Chief John Kaplan said.
News of Campbell's death alarmed many Clarkson students, area residents and police. It wasn't just word that the mysteriously missing student was found dead in a river, but the fact that an almost identical incident had made local headlines last year.
Speaking to reporters, Police Chief Alan Mulkin of neighboring Canton, N.Y. remarked, "Myself and one other officer from my department came over to assist on this case. The case clearly has similarities to the case involving Adam Falcon which occurred back in November of last year."
On the evening of Friday, November 12, 2004, Adam Falcon was laughing and talking with friends over drinks at the "Tick Tock Inn" in Canton. He went missing and his whereabouts were unknown until six days later when the 20-year-old St. Lawrence University student was located in the Grasse River.
"I thought back to the other guy that drowned from SLU," one Clarkson student told reporters. "I just kept thinking, oh my-gosh, it happened again."
Some members of Albert Campbell's family say they find it hard to believe he would just walk into the river. In the total absence of any other information, it's impossible to know what happened. The confusion of not knowing can only add to the family's heartache.
The warmest of wishes and deepest of sympathies go out to the family and friends of Albert Campbell.
From here, read this and start investigating:
http://www.vanceholmes.com/
court...al_missing.html
SMELLIN FISH YET??????
Hi Steve
I have read about this topic some years ago
http://www.vanceholmes.com/
court...al_missing.html
drowning in coincidence
I really think that something odd is going on but I don't think its a gang of serial killers;just one who use to travel across the country and have a fixation by water
There's more where that came from.
Sleeping with the lights on over here.
I posted this link at WS (yesterday?). It's a post from Chris Jenkin's sister regarding the drowning cases going national. It's a rant an an FAQ at the same time. IMO, a good read. Notice the low BAC and the fact he had less than a tsp of water in his lungs.
http://www.rememberchrisjenkins....sp?
TOPIC_ID=149
(snips)
When Chris was found we were told he was just a drunken college kid that jumped off a bridge. We knew differently. FYI: his blood alcohol level was .1 after 4 months of decomposition in which your body acts as a distillary. According to Dr. Michael Baden he likely had little or no alcohol in his system at the time of death. That is an indication of how long he was held before he was killed.
We knew right away it was murder. Why? He was found floating face up, hands crossed across his chest with one hand clenched, clog type shoes still on (they had a very small lip on the back), shirt tucked in, and less than a tsp. of water in his lungs
Hey Nurse! Good to see you here. I wish you were signed up at WS. I think all the drowning deaths are highly unusual.
Hi Emmers!
And where is Robert M? I'd really be interested in what he thinks.
Yes Steve, thank you.
Yes, good find SQ.
She is referring to the illustrious Jaramy Alford, discussed upthread.
From my research, I could only get that he was tied to someone (fellow bedbunker)at the scene, but given the sister's comments, deserves a closer look.. Again, caught ditching the vics car in the river- seems like it's not a stretch to think it might not be your first time.
When I was a student in Norway we all went to pubs and nobody drowned on their way home.
I was teaching in Norway in the 80's. Students was still going to pubs. I heard of no drownings. So go almost all of the 90's.
Suddenly half a dozen male students drown on their way home. Accidents? Suicides?
After visiting Norway, reading about these kids, I heard about the cases in US.
I just felt there could be a connection. Two time I tried to "tip" Norwegian papers about the similarity of the drownings. no answers.
My hope is that Steve Huff will try too. http://www.vg.no, or http://www. db.no. Maybe they listen to you. Actually just put in vg.no, or db.no, you'll find these papers. They are good in English. No problem there.
As an amateur-detective my thinking is this: If this is not a gang, but one man, trips to Norway could be detected.
Been thinking of this for years now. Glad to finally get it of my chest.
One of the missing men is Brian Welzein who went missing on New Year's Eve in 1999. The Tribune covered this story heavily. I remember he was part of a group from NIU staying at the Ambassador East Hotel and he was very, very, very drunk when his friend left him on the curb. He had no jacket. His body washed up on shore in Indiana. I never thought he walked into Lake Michigan. It would've been too hard to do as drunk as he was and as unfamiliar he was with the terrain. Altho the hotel is 2 blocks from the lake, it's not a straight walk. It's not that easy to do. You have to cross Lake Shore Drive (4 lanes of traffic) by going underneath an underpass to get to Oak Street Beach. I always thought he got picked up and murdered.
Oh, I'm sorry, that was me posting about Brian Welzein and he went missing in Chicago where I live.
Blink, Jaramy Alford and his brother are very disturbing.
John Lilly is another one that bothers me. Pat Brown wrote about communicating via the net on a drowning fetish website. For anyone who isn't familiar with John Lilly, below is a link to Shadowraiths post with great details.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums...247&
postcount=1
Crime Library link of Pat Brown's personal experience with John Lilly.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/seri...isconsin/
8.html
Hey girlies! Ok, if we can get all the oldies in here maybe we can solve this thing! lol! Well, we can try.
The "drowning in coincidence" site is a good one. It really makes the hair stand on ends when you see the pictures and SAME stories posted.
Suz- I can't go all the way with Chris' sister in that I don't see this being a group of "cells" across the country, but I do think there is something going on here, just not sure what yet.
I have to go back to motive. If the motive is a thrill kill then where is the thrill? If you think of serial killers they typically have a point to their madness, rape for instance, or the method of killing, (knives, strangulation, gun, ect.). Most really enjoy the infamy also. If these cases had been going back 10yrs, then for 10yrs there has been little to no attention. The deaths are mundane, yet the effort would be great. There's a ton of risk and they are seeking out the most unlikely victims, and the most likely victims to put up a big fight. I guess what I'm saying is I need to see a motive other than drowning and smiley faces. So far there aren't any coming to light.
On the flip side, a lot of these cases are truly too absurd for LE to brush aside. Guys who are very close to home and not very drunk, manage to lose personal items on one side of town, and end up in body of water in opposite direction from their home. How could THAT scenario happen repeatedly? Ugh, this is a brainf***.
Hello everyone!!! I've been off the radar for a bit, and was surprised to hear THIS case in the mainstream media. Actually, I was astonished! Someone over at WebSleuths had postulated this exact scenario shortly after the Justin Gaines/Kyle Fleischman disappearance. Young, healthy, athletic, men who had been in a bar and are now, missing. Both of them have yet to be found, but the discussion brought up the undeniable, IMHO, number of other young college guys who have been out drinking in a bar, only to end up dead in a body of water that was not in a convenient proximity to where the exit of the bar was located. Something is rotten in Denmark. I don't know what, but I am thrilled that LE has taken up the baton the internet has been passing around for a while now! Actually, I can easily buy into the "serial killer" scenario. I have a problem with the "gang" scenario. Maybe a "gang" of two, but beyond that - you would lose control of the situation. I would also look at women as good candidates for this "gang". Who better to lure a drunk guy from a bar into an icy body of water??? Think Aileen Wuornos with the ability to network??? I just think something strange is going on, and it needs futher investigation. Thank God, Steve is on it!!! Yea team!!!
Reannan, where have you been hiding? Good to see you.
I'm an undergraduate at a pretty good school near a pretty large lake and I'm currently a senior. Over the past few years, we've had a few drownings in the lake, but all of them have been considered suicides or accidental drownings. We are, however, a college town and so every single day, including today, there are always drunk freshmen wandering around and acting stupid. I've actually been impressed by how many HAVEN'T drowned in the lake due to their drunkeness. I just wanted to chime in with a current college student's perspective that these accidental drownings aren't too far-fetched to me - the lake near me is READILY accessible and currently frigid, so even if you accidentally wander in, it wouldn't be surprising to me if it were your last swim.
Hey SuziQ!! I have been tied up with work and "stuff"....most of it fun, actually! I have missed Steve, you, Nurse, Emerson, Soobs, et.al. I seriously was amazed that this had hit national news. The disappearance of healthy, maybe drunk college guys into a body of inconvenient water, had been on the back-burner for a while now, and intiutively....I honestly think something is going on.
I also meant to say that the whole "gang" thing is odd. This has to originate from multiple deaths with similar circumstances, and perhaps similar evidence, i.e. the "Smiley Faces" on the same day in geographically distant areas. I am stil sticking to the no more than two "gang" members.
There is a logical problem with this theory. How do the killers pick out high achievers?
There is a problem that would auto select high achievers, Subliminal Distraction.
Most of the deaths are simple accidental drownings. But mixed in are a few that have information that points to the student having a mental event and dying while in that altered mental state.
VisionAndPsychosis.Net is a five year investigation of Subliminal Distraction.
Schools are unaware of the phenomenon and do not provide Cubicle Level Protection or warn students.
Even though designers believe this problem only causes a harmless temporary episode the psychotic event is real to the victim.
Google Subliminal Distraction and go to VisionAndPsychosis.Net to read about the problem.
REEEE..SOOBS...EMMERS..NURSE...SUZIQ....blink ... AND any MORE OLD crusties IN DA HOUSE (add your own beat box and/or explitives to the previous LOfreakingL).
This case STINKS with Dahmer~like~ undercurrents (Ie...this is f#$ked up in a way we have never have experienced before.
I trust G and D. Good, honest, retired NYPD dics do not mortgage their homes and chase zebras on a whim.
OMG!
OMG!
Soobs! I think I just saw a shadow person take off with your shades~!
Just to throw it out here again...what do you all think of the college kid that went missing and was pulled out of WATER earlier today?
What say you?
I am smelling something and it aint teen spirit.
From what I gather, students who go to Ithaca say it's not reasonable to expect that he was walking home and fell in. The trails are too far away and the pond is only 10-12 feet deep in the middle.Sounds like the rest is shallow and you can stand up in it. A poster at WS said it's not somewhere you'd think about swimming because it's not much more than a mudhole.
And my understanding is LE in Ithaca announced that this was a case of an accidental drowning before an autopsy was done. WTF?
SuziQ....
A FREAKING MAN! (to your previous post/blogment).
My theory
…maybe the detectives aren’t as honest as they appear to be. I say they did it and are now seeking notoriety for their actions.
Team? Who are the rest of the members of the team? I can only find the two detectives mentioned? Oh, and the Professor. Anyone else or just a close knit group of 3 selflessly investigating? Most theories seem to favor two people working together. Here we have three people who have been working together supposedly “investigating” this issue for years.
Mortgaging his house? Devotion or obsession? Are either of these men married? I would find it hard to believe that they would be as they seem to have devoted a lot of time investigating this case and I would imagine the wife must have had some objections to mortgaging their home to investigate a case the FBI had no interest in. If unmarried, sign of anti-social behavior?
Being detectives they would be able to gain inside information, such as when an actual accidental death occurred and where and would be able to “investigate” and leave the smiley face at the scene of a crime they did not commit in addition to going around committing the crime when needed. Why a smiley face? Easy for copy cat killers to replicate thus substantiating the theory further and throw future investigations off track.
Funny how they hold a press conference in NY to inform the public of their investigation and the day before another male student in upstate NY disappears in similar circumstances and is later found in a similar manner to the other victims. It almost screams “Ah-ha! See, we told you so!”
My theory
…maybe the detectives aren’t as honest as they appear to be. I say they did it and are now seeking notoriety for their actions.
Team? Who are the rest of the members of the team? I can only find the two detectives mentioned? Oh, and the Professor. Anyone else or just a close knit group of 3 selflessly investigating? Most theories seem to favor two people working together. Here we have three people who have been working together supposedly “investigating” this issue for years.
Mortgaging his house? Devotion or obsession? Are either of these men married? I would find it hard to believe that they would be as they seem to have devoted a lot of time investigating this case and I would imagine the wife must have had some objections to mortgaging their home to investigate a case the FBI had no interest in. If unmarried, sign of anti-social behavior?
Being detectives they would be able to gain inside information, such as when an actual accidental death occurred and where and would be able to “investigate” and leave the smiley face at the scene of a crime they did not commit in addition to going around committing the crime when needed. Why a smiley face? Easy for copy cat killers to replicate thus substantiating the theory further and throw future investigations off track.
Funny how they hold a press conference in NY to inform the public of their investigation and the day before another male student in upstate NY disappears in similar circumstances and is later found in a similar manner to the other victims. It almost screams “Ah-ha! See, we told you so!”
I don't think this idea is going to be very well liked but I'd rather "leave no stone unturned" and consider all angles.
SuziQ --
Chris, Your own example mentions that diving off the bridge is a "summertime" activity. IMO, comparing that type of activity here is like comparing apples and oranges.
No, I said that you could wade across the Hocking in the middle of summer. The river ran right thru campus; OU does have a summer session, but the student population is at its densest fall-winter-spring.
Ohio U. has a well-deserved rep as a party-school. Drunken students & activities involving the Hocking River were fairly common. :D
My point, though, is that when you get young people around any body of water, they tend to get stupid, and the young guys seem to be the worst of that stupid, from what I've seen. I could tell stories about stuff I've seen in state & national parks (teens jumping off extremely tall rocks into water less than 3 foot deep, swimming in areas near swift waterfall currents marked with "No Swimming allowed" signs, etc.).
What I think is far more likely is that the young men in question were not alone. They were with friends, or with a group of drunk companions, ended up at the river, and tragedy happened, with the drunk companions either not realizing what happened or taking off & keeping their mouths shut rather than get in trouble.
Chris-
that I am aware of, the common denominator in every one of the drowning cases as well as several suspected missing persons cases with similar characteristics, is that ALL were alone.
Steve, if you remember the "Satanic Panic" you'll also remember all the dedicated detectives that lectured communities around the country on how to protect themselves from Satanists infiltrating their daycare. Don't consider it proof, anyone can get caught up in the conspiracy theory state of mind. And keep in mind that a smiley face isn't exactly a cryptic Gnostic symbol known to only a few wackos - I'll bet you'd find lots of them around campuses. Half my friends sign their emails with one (should I be worried????)
Regarding the update on the FBI Investigation:
It should be noted that the FBI, at the Request of Law Enforcement, reviewed the investigations of the detectives and the Minnesota and Minneapolis police investigations prior to the detectives findings. Emphasis on reviewed their cases, they have NEVER conducted an independent investigation and have no plans to. There is a huge difference between reviewing old casework and conducting an independent investigation, which in my opinion, needs to happen here. The tide appears to be turning in the other jurisdictions as well:
http://kstp.com/article/stories/...411.shtml?
cat=1
http://www.nypost.com/seven/
0429...uths_108571.htm
Gannon and Duarte began working in high gear in 2003, when they learned four young men had vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a 40-day period. Instead of looking at where the bodies were found, the detectives looked at the point of entry into the water, finding smiley faces nearby. Nine of the 22 faces were drawn with horns, Gannon said - like an "evil, happy, smiley man."
I hear this and the FIRST thing that comes to my mind is EMOTICONS.
It sounds to me that if a "gang" does exist, it most likely started in cyberspace, back sometime around '97.
Communication through the internet would be the only scenario that would make any sense. How else could it be such a wide spread "organization?"
Something just ain't right here. I certainly am not "all in" on this, but dammit something does smell fishy.
I also trust that there is a lot more than smiley faces connecting the crimes. There MUST be inormation that LE is keeping close to its vest.
Interesting note:
Serial killer, Keith Hunter Jesperson, AKA the HAPPY FACE KILLER, committed his first know murder in 1990. He was sentenced in 1995. The story received national coverage, as did the knowledge that he scrawled happy faces on his letters that were sent to taunt authorities.
Is it a stretch that these are related- Yes. Is it an impossibility- NO.
Chris, the truth probably lies halfway in between your theory and mine.
********************
Luke said: Communication through the internet would be the only scenario that would make any sense. How else could it be such a wide spread "organization?"
Something just ain't right here. I certainly am not "all in" on this, but dammit something does smell fishy.
I also trust that there is a lot more than smiley faces connecting the crimes. There MUST be inormation that LE is keeping close to its vest.
I say: Yep, that pretty much mirrors my thinking.
We are all on board with the exception that the serial killer angle does not fit, 100% of serial killing has a sexual motivation in some of the aspects of the crime.
If you paralell the manner of death, the inability to control when the body might be found, no claims of the killer, and no discernable motive, I would say that stacks the deck against the serial angle. However, I do think the "perps" are attempting to make a statement. Going on a limb here that I am leaning that the smiley's do connect the cases, but from a voyeuristic perspective, almost like someone or someone(s) are trying to expose the perp or perps-
"we know what you did"??
jmho
Blink,
I agree with 100% of serial murders being sexually motivated, but we can't be sure that these aren't. Sometimes the sexual gratification comes after the fact or lies in the fantasizing. David Berkowitz, Zodiac, and even BTK didn't sexually assault their victims, but ALL were sexually motivated crimes.
It may be far fetched to think that this is the work of some "organization," but even that without precedent must transpire to set precedent at some point, right.
True, and well said, and, well, possible for "after the fact" gratification, alhough I go again to Pat Brown's profile of no known recorded case of a serial killer using drowning, I guess, it still go to the "fear" of the vic.
Transpiring to set precedent that is unknown and ambiguous to the audience with such a high volume of vics does not ring in with me, imo.
Maybe the precedent is the "non-precedent."
I seem to remember the detectives saying that this group was involved in other criminal activities. Does anybody remember a statement like that? I can't seem to find any comments on this.
I think you may be referring to Jaramy Alford as a suspect in Chris Jenkin's case, for which he has never been charged. However, he is doin' life for a brutal murder.
Other than that since they haven't mentioned anyone else I am not sure.
Envy is as good of a motivation as any. Water is a better dumping area than most.
So who envy's these vics, apparently collectively?
So who envy's these vics, apparently collectively?
Blink34 | 05.01.08 - 4:42 pm | #
Hell if I know, but yeah, collectively is the key word.
This has to have a psychological trigger and be of symbolic nature for one person involved, most likely that person is the "leader." (and my guess would be located where the largest cluster has occurred or where the first incident took place.) Was most likely of a college age back in '97/
Message boards and IRC's can be creepy little places. I have seen some of the creepiest out there.
Congressman calls on FBI to reopen drowning cases
http://kstp.com/article/stories/...604.shtml?
cat=1
Read the congressman's letter:
http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/U...%20to%
20fbi.pdf
Bravo
I will chime in on that bravo as well. It is about time someone does SOMETHING even if all that becomes of this is to put a conspiracy theory to bed.
Whether the cases are connected or not, I feel most are and not through a networking gang, the hinkyness about them is out there and the families need the truth. No matter what the truth will be.
I think that they are grasping at straws, at least in some aspects.
My mother lives in Dubuque IA and that is where I went to High School. I've been told that the police there were never asked ANY questions about Matt Kruziki by these investigators. They never found a smiley face. The only thing that ties it was that he died near/at Sinsinawa Avenue.
I think that for some families, it would be easier for them to cast blame on faceless killing monsters, than to accept their child may have been a dumb drunk who went for a swim.
Last year in the Nashville area a solider back from Iraq went missing after drinking. They later found him in the river. Do I think a gang of smiley face killers did him in? No.
Here is a two part series by Kristi Piehl.
http://kstp.com/article/stories/...shtml?cat=5&
v=1
http://kstp.com/article/stories/....shtml?
cat=1v=1
Official Police reports from the Jenkins investigation:
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/
mpdca...mpdcasefile.pdf
"Soobs! I think I just saw a shadow person take off with your shades~!"
Damn them! It's finally sunny here!
I think I'm out of sync here but many years of reporting have left me skeptical - and also very good at statistical analysis. In 2005 there were 251 drownings of white males 20-24 in the US, 216 accidents, 25 suicides, 1 homicide and the rest undetermined (which can mean they didn't report the cause.)Thats from the whisquars system of national health stats. Drowning homicides are most commonly infants and young children.
It's just not that easy to drown a big, healthy guy, even a drunk one, especially without anyone noticing.
Melanie: You need a more specific sample: the cause of drownings in situations where the 20-24 yr old male was not engaged in watersports or any water activity and where the person had been deemed missing with no witnesses of a potential cause for dissapearance for a number of days.
The general stat you referenced definitely proves how uncommon drowning deaths are in this country in that age and gender group.
And regarding cause of death determination overall: lets not forget how decomposition in the water impacts the reliability of tox screens and general forensics if those are even performed in most "assumed" drowning cases.
Adam Folsom, a student at St. Lawrence University, is not likely a victim of a serial killer. The Tick Tock Inn is a cozy, thriving establishment conveniently located within walking distance of campus, and exists for the sole purpose of drinking and socializing.
Last I knew, it was owned by a lawyer and employed many students of legal age who served their peers.
More often than not, we can assume it is alcohol overconsumption that brings about campus tragedy, and rarely, death.
Would not be surprised if the tragically deceased Clarkson student suffered a similar fate.
No smiley faces there...in Potstown and Canton, NY.
As I see this situation, it is statistically unusual to have that many similar deaths. And per stat class, anything over 5 is not random. There are two factors I think are important: First, accurate timelines; Secondly, accurate maps showing locations of victims. Also, do the crimes go as far west as California? If not, exactly how far west do they go? Never underestimate serial killers. If you have never personally seen the conditioning program in those people, you have no clue what they have been psychologically conditioned to do. And some most certainly do perform in groups. The smiley face murders on the surface appear to have some thwarts to confuse Investigators. That is very interesting and I won't post my personal opinion on that here. As well, the killer or killers most certainly could be using major roadways and/or bicycles. I've seen no reports on how he/they hunt his/their victims. All in all, it is my opinion the smiley face murders are being dismissed too early and most certainly should be investigated more thoroughly by the FBI and local PDs. Unless they can show there is a public nuisance causing those deaths, and they can't, then it is certainly a situation of lurking horror that must be caught and locked away.
What does anyone know about autopsy evidence on any of these alleged victims? I honestly, have both legs over the fence towards the side of "something going on" with these clusters of similar demographic deaths in the water. The biggest thing I am having an issue with is two fold: 1) a gang. WTF??? Gangs usually involve numerous people, and they are CLOSELY connected - so how do you explain the large demographic area; i.e. 11 states?? 2) the manner of death. Drowning?? Listen - I hate to admit it, but I have been VERY intoxicated on more instances than I care to recall - but if I had been thrown into a "pond" or "lake" or heck even "river", I would have sobered up instantly (especially in cold water) - at least enough to have fought my way to the banks and to the throat of whoever pushed me back under! I would have had DNA evidence of whoever pushed me back under the water beneath my fingernails! So, do we know if the autopsy even LOOKED for such evidence? Do we know if there was water in the lungs of these victims? If it is an evil "smiley faced gang", surely, they use the water to destroy evidence of their evil deeds - the person is already dead; or close to death; before being pushed under the water!!!! Just thinking out loud here - now you guys run with it.
Today, they took samples of the paint from the smiley found in the area where it's believed Joshua Szostak entered the Hudson. They're going to try to date it, I suppose, but the PD seems to be... I don't know. I don't like the way they've handled his case from the beginning, and wish I could find a spot where people were discussing his disappearance in depth.
Here you go Tracy (from over at WebSleuths):
http://tinyurl.com/4xko3t
They have been discussing the case since 12/30/2007. And now, apparently, there is this:
"The father of former Plattsburgh State University student Joshua Szostak noticed a shocking image spray-painted on a tree near the Hudson River Wednesday, where he was last seen alive.
As he searched the Port of Albany Wednesday in hopes of finding some jewelry his son was wearing when he disappeared after a night of drinking with friends this past winter, Bill Szostak came across a smiley face spray-painted on a nearby tree."
http://www.wptz.com/news/1609028...285/
detail.html
Linked at WS's but from the 4/30/08 edition of the WPTZ.com news.
Of course, being the cynic that I am (Thank you Steve, and all the others here - take a bow!), someone could have hurried down and spray painted the smiley face since the detectives went public. Naaahhhh - NOT! Something is rotten!
Tracy- Josh's death is extremely suspicious and I can't grasp why LE is not doing a damn thing about it.
I can't imagine any drunk person just "accidentally" wandering into a body of water and then drowning. I can see someone accidentally falling off of something, but even then most bridges have railing that would take some type of effort to accidentally fall over. If they were going for a drunk swim, why are they found fully clothed? I've personally taken part in the drunk swimming in a pool in 30 degree weather, we still managed to take our clothes off and into our skivvies. These guys are fully clothed and they manage to walk quite a distance before ending up in the water, yet noone ever reports seeing them walking from point A to point B. I did wonder if the only other common denominator here was the cold water.
The detectives did say that at the same locations they found the smiley face, the area they presumed was the actual crime scene, they also found other evidence of foul play. I'd love to know what it is they found.
Hey reannan! I was thinking about the "gang of serial killers" angle again and wondered if it could be a gang initiation rather then a classic serial killing case. It's as valid a motive as any at this point, mho.
if you surprise them and knock them out either by force or pills, they dont put up much of a fight.
were there any marks on any of the bodies other than drowning? or were they found too late to tell? i guess that MIGHT tell us if they were drowned by hand (possibly more sexually exciting for one who finds drowning exciting), if they were killed in some other fashion, just set afloat after death, etc...
also has there been any evidence of semen or sexual assault? instead of trying to think of the victims as all gay, perhaps the alleged perp has MSM fantasies/tendencies.
i tend to agree that it seems the work of one obsessed person rather than a group - how sure are they that two murders happened at the same time? if they are off on that, even by a day, that would be easier to explain. tho i guess it could be a leader/follower - in which case, it is not hard to forge d/s relationships in fetish chat places such as the drowning fetish place discussed above. someone has to worship you in order to be a hero. and so it does make icky sense that it would be exciting to have a lackey.
I don't know eotjer Emerson! You theory has a lot of merit, and shoul be exp;pred.
Page 20 of the police report on the Chris Jenkins case notes that Jenkins was possibly seen assaulted/robbed by a group of Black males the night of his death.
I almost want to say that for such a allegedly clean and tidy serial killing organization, this would be drawing WAY TOO MUCH attention.
Though it would perhaps make more sense if this was a matter of a group of disenfranchised minority youths targeting upper crust predominantly Caucasian males. At least more sense than what it's making right now. (Not that that is saying much.)
hollyRocks,
It's not as difficult as one would think to find places in cyberspace where like twisted minds come together. I have seen some disturbing stuff over the years. Some of it is surely for the lulz and shock effect of it all, but there are some really messed up folks out there.
Even some true-crime lovers come off as having way too much admiration for some of the monsters who walk among us.
I think PD on one case I've read so far, had two viable suspects who should have been questioned further. One is either lying, or both are working together on these crimes. And, I am convinced the killer is most definately messing with the Police with those smiley faces. The horrifying aspect is the fact he will kill again. I know exactly who I'd check every wart and freckle on, and I wouldn't stop until the case was solved. Does anyone have the logistics on the murders that were reported to have occurred the same day?
Gang, as in street gang? Seems more like a revenge of the nerds or a revenge of the bullied scenario with the target being the stereotypical beefy white baseball cap backwards wearing binge drinking jock. I recall the Columbine killers were motivated to kill kids fitting that stereotype. Tie-in with Columbine killer sympathizers makes sense, particularly given the assumption that a tight cyber community could form around the themes of violence, social alienation and revenge.
It appears from several posts that some view the smiley face as the sole determining factor here. Out of 40 cases, the smiley face was only found at 22 crime scenes. Based on that, the Smiley face should not be used as a determining factor on whether a case is connected or not.
I still don't know if the Smiley Face has anything to do with anything. Afterall, you can probably find Smiley's randomly spray painted in many places. And they would all look different right? And the pics we've seen in this case of six of the smiley's the detectives found all look different. There is one detail that sticks out though. And that's the fact that 9 of the 22 Smileys found had horns on them. What would the odds of that be? Things that make you go Hmmmm.
Re: The Jenkins case. On Halloween 02, Jenkins goes to a party at a bar dressed like an Indian. He leaves on foot after the bar party breaks up 11/01/02 at 1:30am and walks across a bridge over the Mississippi. His body is recovered from the Mississippi on 2/27/03. Steam Plant videos of 11/01/02 taken 12:00 to 04:00 of the area do not show his body. A CI reports riding a bike over the bridge and seeing Jenkins walking across the bridge. NO DATE OR TIME GIVEN. Steven Cox, another informant, stated he saw the body on 2/20/03 but did not report it until 2/27/03. Someone smart tell me what is going on here. Later videos of Steam plant were not requested; no follow-up done on Cox or CI Barnes. However, there was an enormous amount of reporting on the clothing worn by Jenkins. This has to be a joke. Or the worst Police work on the planet.
Has anyone even thought to question residents (homes and apartments) in any of the involved Cities if an unknown "something" is waking the household in the middle of the night? If not, why not.
Luke, I read the same report re: Jenkins and the group of Blacks. It was interesting that the Police did not check that group out that night, nor did they do anything other than a cursory follow up on the later report. The fellow who did make the report was questioned and stated the report actually came from the Jenkins family group who had begun their own fact finding. There is just too much that doesn't add up on this case, too much taken for granted, too many assumptions taken as a basis for "fact". And Police reports that are frankly indictive of someone doing only the basics of what is required for their job -- i.e. no interest in the case, or a bad Investigative Supervisor. I also read that the majority of the crimes occurred during the winter. Why? PD didn't even ask. As well, 40 victims in a ten year period in 11 states? That averages to 4 a year which puts it under the radar of statistical significance. Somebody knows what they are doing, and they have to be caught.
Tick Tock 5/1 @ 9:29pm says-
.."Adam Folsom, a student at St. Lawrence University, is not likely a victim of a serial killer. The Tick Tock Inn is a cozy, thriving establishment conveniently located within walking distance of campus, and exists for the sole purpose of drinking and socializing.."
As a point of clarification, the young man's case you are referring to is Adam Falcon, not Folsom. Additionally, he was found UPSTREAM from the Tic Toc Inn, and his COD was "asphyxiation due to drowning and hypothermia" I can tell you that means there was very little water in his lungs and pitichial hemorraging was present, imo.
Regarding Chris Jenkins case-
remember LE classified his Manner of death initially as a SUICIDE based on their investigation. They pried a wad of his OWN hair out of his hand when they found him- I am surprised they did not find his cause of death- "decedant appears to have ripped his hair out.."
Not to be overly glib, but there is a reason this is a landmark case here-
Shoddy investigation, resulting in an apology to the family, and a reclassification as a homicide.
Point is, if the connection between the majority of the cases is basically predetermined manner of death due to the victim's own actions, followed up by confirmation from an uneventful autopsy, isn't the minimum issue- There is something wrong with the investigative process??
Hey, I biffed the ball at the skinny dude in dodge ball first every time-
couldn't this be that?
Hey, I biffed the ball at the skinny dude in dodge ball first every time-
couldn't this be that?
Blink34 | 05.02.08 - 11:05 am | #
It could certainly be that. An organization of highly intelligent underachievers who have it in for the overachieving, good looking,popular, and symbolic of their own bullying/torment. Such a group would more than know the ins and outs of cyberspace, but more importantly, they would have been on this bandwagon since the early-mid 90's. Maybe at some point their geeky RPGs ceased to amuse and they raised the stakes a bit...
It's a Hell of a stretch, but there are some f'ed up individuals out there and some of these types are all the more twisted when group dynamics becomes involved.
If these are murders, they are either the result of a "game" or a group with a agenda, one known only to those in the group.
Imagine if a bunch of true-crime fans got together and thought about how to commit the perfect crime. Now imagine if those folks were serious and driven to do such.
This seriously may be the most perplexing case I have ever come across. I think the only hope in solving it is if the group has a weak link. A group is only as strong as its weakest link.
Then again, that's if this is anything more than freaky ass coincidental accidental drowning incidents in the first place.
If LE would have done a solid investigation on the majority of these cases then I don't know if we would be talking about this. They repeatedly fished bodies out of water and stopped their investigation there. I think it would have been prudent on their parts to have made an attempt to retrace theses young mens footsteps. (They may have done that in some of these cases and we just are not aware of how in-depth they went.) As a family member I would have wanted some type of proof, beyond LE telling me, that my son wandered on foot to the river and accidentally or otherwise ended-up drowning. Were there witnesses? Was there proof in every case of where the person went into the water? Are there any fingerprints on railings ect. There just doesn't seem to be any solid evidence that points to these being accidents anymore then there is for murder, other than "drunk kid ends up dead in river".
Dont know much about the Helder case, but here's a reference to smiley faces along the lines of revenge on the normal by the socially alienated:
Luke Helder's "Midwestern Smiley Face" drawn across the map in pipe bombs seems to support the article in [i]Harper's Weekly[/i]. The Kurt Cobain wannabe, realizing the power of symbols, starts a bombing spree meant to look like a smiling face on the map to spread some kind of message to all of America. He didn't even really intend for the bombs to go off. The symbolism was the important thing, it seems.
And Helder is a Minnesota-Wisconsin guy, grew up around Minneapolis MN I believe and went to UW Madison/ HMMM
As a point of clarification, the young man's case you are referring to is Adam Falcon, not Folsom. Additionally, he was found UPSTREAM from the Tic Toc Inn, and his COD was "asphyxiation due to drowning and hypothermia" I can tell you that means there was very little water in his lungs and pitichial hemorraging was present, imo.
Blink34 | 05.02.08 - 10:48 am
Tx for the correction, Blink34, and additional details. Most likely, Adam Falcon met with foul play, then...but wonder if the Canton PD had the knowledge to conduct an adequate investigation. Could easily have been someone from town, a neighboring town...or, God forbid, another student.
My direct family member is an SLU alum. Great experience...very social and interconnected, lifelong relationships born from campus life.
Wondered, when I first heard of this, how SLU might handle the bad press.
Still wonder if they have come to any internal conclusions. The parents must be devastated.
Note, too, that heavy drinking is de rigueur at SLU. HEAVY drinking.
If you want an example of a case that was poorly investigated, look at Roman Reed, a 19 year old from NC who was found in a way that I would NEVER have assumed to be accidental. From over at WebSleuths, "Reed was staying with a friend and was last seen alive that day. He was found submerged in a pond, clothed with his head under water and an arm over a pipe." http://www.websleuths.com/forums...ead.php?
t=64062
Some other article I read from his father indicated that Roman was terrified of water. He was a known stoner, and so I think everyone just assumed he got high/drunk and somehow ended up in the pond dead. That is bull crap IMHO. I totally get how getting high/drunk can make you stupid. I will NEVER understand how it would make someone who is afraid of the water go INTO the water, and stick their HEAD in the water until they drown. No way, no how. Geeesh. I can't believe we are even having to discuss this stuff.
Here is a blog I found that may prove to be a great investigative resource for some of you:
http://
footprintsattheriversedge...01_archive.html
Luke, that is an interesting case! I just don't see how someone so drunk, that they were leaning on a car, throwing up, could have "wandered the few blocks east to Lake Michigan. Crossing eight lanes of traffic on Lake Shore Drive to get to Lake Michigan...". Could it be a man and woman "team"? The woman makes the man feel confortable, and the man then takes control of the situation? These guys are athletic, and even in a drunken state, should have shown some signs of trauma to the body if they were physically taken several blocks away to be thrown into a body of water. This whole thing is insane, no matter how you view it. The question becomes, which scenario is MORE insane? Someone lulling the victim into a state of comfort until moment before the....what; shove into the water??...or a falling down drunk person walking several blocks across busy lanes of traffic to end up in a body of water? Round and round we go....
tick tock, You said this: "Last I knew, it was owned by a lawyer and employed many students of legal age who served their peers.
More often than not, we can assume it is alcohol overconsumption that brings about campus tragedy, and rarely, death" My response is that is not always wise to assume. Lawyer, bartender, student....whatever role...it is not a blanket 'i am normal' card. This case is STRANGE. I completely agree. Should we blame it all on alcohol at this point? I say no. And as to "heavy drinking" well come on....the stats on national drowning rates compared to those in the suspect areas are completely and statistically skewed. Early in this blogment I posted a link to Shadow's statistical data. Check it out.
Emmers, HEY DUDE! You said this: "Hey reannan! I was thinking about the "gang of serial killers" angle again and wondered if it could be a gang initiation rather then a classic serial killing case. It's as valid a motive as any at this point, mho."..... I agree COMPLETELY and think that the only way (if this national murder group does exist) it is a subgroup within a group....(ie, new macbre kind of hazing). Hazing after the late 90's and henceforth was nailed and it would be logical that it went underground in new and profound ways.
Luke, that was really interesting...and I hear you.
All in all....let us look at motive here. If this is happening (please entertain the thought even though it is strange) then WHY? Why target young, WHITE, athletic, college aged MEN? Who wants this type of person dead and gone? Why not just shoot them or bomb them or poison them? These type of deaths are making a statement in themselves. They are a sick type of group~trophy. What kind of group would revel in this the deaths of these young men? The motive, to me is the key.
Nurse-
imnsho only 2 possibilities, and I agree the motive blows this open:
1) They WANT to be them, and that is the only way they can. Some sort of sick osmosis of their soul.
2) They want to rid the world of their existance as a mock of the example they give.
ie: "We hold the power, our way is the salvation, don't buy in- go for an eternal swim"
I don't yet entertain that these deaths are related, but entertaining for a moment that they might be; wouldn't it be ironic if the perps turned out to be a gang of girls?
Reannan,
A male female partnership makes as much sense as any other scenario we could come up with. I was thinking something along the lines of Bernardo/Homolka at one point, though in all honesty, I do feel that such a pairing would involve torture, humiliation, and a COD more dramatic than "accidental" drowning. I also believe there would be a HIGHLY sexual element to such crimes, as that would be the most likely ruse. It's also a good possibility that the victims wouldn't be found fully clothed, not to mention without defensive wounds.
Nurse,
I agree with Blink, though I perhaps would not have expressed my conclusion as creatively/abstractly...lol
Motive in my opinion is either:
A) Envy (They want to be them)/want what they have/can't/so they get even.)
B) Symbolic eradiction (as in cutting something prosperous off at the root.)
When I think of this scenario, I immediately think of a militant type of organization, the type you can find on just about any college campus.
Hearing that Christopher Jenkins was last seen possibly being assaulted/robbed by a group of young Black males definitely leads me in this direction, especially if this is the work of a killer gang with an agenda.
I also believe that even if the FBI was onto a militant organization being suspected of such a series of crimes, it would be kept VERY hush-hush, for obvious reasons.
Look no further than the rape/murders Channon Christian and Chris Newsom in Tennessee, which received hardly any mainstream media attention, especially when compared to the race torture in West Virginia.
Blink34- IF there is a group like the detectives described (still undecided myself, but leaning a bit) then I think twadorno hit on the most likely suspects. It was the first thing that popped into my head when I heard the detective's story.
People who were bullied, often by jocks, in high school have already proved able and willing to kill many people and then die themselves. Is it so hard to imagine that a group of people who were bullied would be willing to kill if they felt that they could get away with it?
All the comments over at WS about frats & cults and I can't find even a mention (if I missed it I'm sorry)of a scenario like twadorno's. Columbine motives with a different method. One in which the killers survive.
In fact, I haven't seen it brought up anywhere before, though it may have been somewhere. I'm not saying this is it, but the idea deserves as much consideration as a frat or cult oriented group. It would explain a lot toward how such similar victims from different schools could be targeted.
Thank you for answering my earlier question by the way.
re: women being involved - a library book I was reading stated '38% of women serial killers are nurses' this shocked me as I was in the med. field for 40+ yrs. - this would fall in with posters believing women are involved - I personally have a hard time believing these guys just drowned all by themselves - they would not be intimidated by a woman offering help -
Cromis: If I were the FBI, I would begin by searching for concentrations of unrepentant and mature Columbine supporters on the internet. Why not assume just a unique group appearing instantaneously? People just arent that original; they need pre-made heros, manifestos etc. I would also deduce that a node could be centered around Luke Helder, the alt-rock socially ostracized college aged smiley face bomber from Wisc and MN. Would look at his correspondences and any internet linkages as he could be one of the inspirations or "saints" of the cause (hence the smiley face tributes). No doubt, if there are associated jock killing groups out there, each team would likely include a honey trap (female in a bar) and more than one strong-armer. I dont know, this all sounds plausible to me, but very loose in nature. Would assume the initial origin was a multi-role playing multi-location over the internet game like Doom.
I originally became interested in these cases after the disappearance of Brian Shaffer. After reading almost all these posts, I have to say I can go either way. None of it makes any sense.
The drowning angle makes little sense. There are simply too many of these instances, confined to a specific demographic, in a relatively confined geography, under SPECIFIC circumstances. We keep on seeing the same thing again, and again, and again.
However, there are a great number of flaws with the “smiley face killers” perspective.
However, there are a number of flaws with the serial killer idea, as well. To begin with, the "gang" perspective is very weak. A conspiracy is only as effective as every single member maintaining absolute silence and obedience. Not likely. Anyone that has worked in an office or has a group of friends realize that secrets are about as easily kept as nailing jello to a wall.
My guess is that this is the work of a single individual. Yet, even here there are issues. We have to look at the psychology and M.O. of serial killers. First, it is a known fact that all serial murders are in one way or another, sexual crimes. The victim of the serial killer is always an object of lust, in one form or another, of the perpetrator. Given this, we have to deduce that the killer is either a repressed (Herb Bruenmiester) or an openly homosexual male or a heterosexual female. It is well documented that female's RARELY commit violent crimes on strangers. As far as I am aware, there has only been one recorded case of a lone female serial killer.
The greatest weakness to the serial killer angle is the fact that these drowning cases have remained very consistent over the years. It is documented that serial killers are creatures of habit, but they are also addicts. They build a tolerance to their “fix” and respond with more audacity and risky killings in order to get the same thrill. Many serial killers often get caught this way. They become sloppy and disorganized in their frenzy. All these drownings are fairly similar. The M.O. has not changed. If someone is killing these young men, they would be engaging in more risky behavior as time passed.
Another problem is that if the killer has killed so many, then it would be likely that at one point that one of their victims would escape, one way or another. Especially since none of these young men were bound in any perceivable way.
In the final analysis, I do not see any way for this serial killer perspective to work unless there was some form of drugging. These young men are going to fight back, and the more they struggle, the more the killer loses control and the greater likelihood of escape. In order for the killer to maintain control, they are going to have to drug there victims. However, the toxicology reports are not turning up anything.
I still believe there is something bizarre at work here, but I have a great deal of difficulty figuring out what it could be. My best conjecture is that in the “possible victims” list, there are a number of accidents and perhaps some suicides, or even unrelated passion crimes. In the core though, I think a number of these men were victims of an older, well organized serial killer. My guess this individual is a closeted homosexual and very frustrated. He has to be using some sort of drug to pacify his victims so he can move them to these bodies of water, and make sure they drown.
Either these men are victims of the ill effects of alcohol or the victims of incompetent police work. I would want to see how these autopsies were carried out and to what condition the bodies were in.
Okay, looking back at what I just typed, I used so many “Ifs” and “Howevers” I am back on the fence again.
http://tinyurl.com/62zd63
From the above link:
"Around 7 a.m., 21-year-old Cullen Fortney "walked into Gundersen Lutheran Medical Center sodden and caked with mud, wearing no coat and no shoes." He told hospital staff that he had fallen in to the river "but didn’t know where or how it happened."
Cullen's case is one that answers some questions for me. Here's a guy that survived falling into a river and can't even say how he ended-up IN the river. The interesting thing to me is that he lost most of his belongings in the river while fighting to not drown, yet a lot of the cases where the victim did drown, they have their belongings either on their bodies or located a great distance away from the bodies on a street as if discarded.
http://tinyurl.com/57kpnw
From the above link, Patrick Kycia drowned back in 2005 after attending a frat party. The strange thing is the amount of time he walked, (4hrs supposedly), before ending up in the river. The map shows his path and how absolutely insane the path was. How, in 4hrs, did this guy not manage to sober up enough to either get home, or NOT fall in a river? Very strange, and it's another one of those cases that puts me back on the fence.
I'm thinking there is an alcohol magnet in these waters. It's the only explanation I can come up with!
Here's an article arguing against the serial killer/gang theory:
http://www.leadertelegram.com/st...?
id=BGGCMM36CG6
I personally think such an article is a bit insensitive and irresponsible, but it is the author's entitled opinion.
I wish AMW or Dateline would feature this story, maybe with some new "never before revealed" details.
I just can't make heads or tails of this one.
twadorno- Groups do need their heros, and martyrs, and belief systems. Luke Helder makes sense for this type of situtation, for as much as I remember about him.
I didn't really think that this group just appeared. I pictured them comming together in any number of ways. What came to mind for me was something among the many efforts to deal with bullying after the high school shootings years ago. Some group planned to set up a site where victims of bullying could go to share their their stories. Bad idea I thought. Let's get a whole bunch of the people who are most likely to be like the the ones who just shot up a number of schools and put them together online. Even if there is a moderator it's not like group therapy where a professional is right there to see how people are reacting and guide the discussion. I pictured the most messed up people just getting more and more worked up the more they read other people's stories. I don't know if it was ever set up but I expect that more people played Doom &/or found Luke Helder anyway. I could picture two guys talking on such a site about games they both play and one invites the other to play with him, his brother and a couple of other guys they met playing Doom. "And hey, have you ever heard of Luke Helder?"
I apologize for the mini-novel I am about to write, but some of you may find my notes quicker than listening to the whole piece.
Here's a radio interview with Kristi Piehl that was put up on youtube:
it's in 7 parts:
1.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwazbqzVkck&
feature=related
2.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xrDZuI4rGg&
feature=related
3.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s30ogctujvE&
feature=related
4.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3sowIRT_IA&
feature=related
5.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp1wRZpX9Fk&
feature=related
6.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qesfBwn3KYw&
feature=related
7.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg7IlD507jM&
feature=related
* They are holding information back, in particular specific graffiti tagging.
- These taggings/symbols/smiley faces could serve two purposes:
a) to take credit for the crimes; and especially in regards to taunting the LE and the media (Ala Zodiac, BTK, Son of Sam, etc.)
b) to prove to fellow members that another member is in fact responsible for a crime and not just taking credit for a random accidental drowning.
* There have been tons of new leads, mainly in regards to potential victims that may have escaped, but really aren't too sure. Sounds like these victims could have been drugged to me.
* The host makes a reference to the movie "Kiss the Girls," and questions if the "game" isn't a type of cyber oneupmanship.
* The host makes reference to the "Atlanta Child Murders" and says that LEs reaction to these crimes are similar. Another note was made that if there was a gender reversal mainstream media and the LE would have been all over this case.
* I-94 corridor access seems to be one important consistency in most of the crimes.
* A caller referenced a book called "The Ultimate Evil," claimed that the Smiley Face Killers were using some stuff from the Son of Sam play book. He said some other pretty far out stuff (like the yellow smiley face being symbolic of the sun= Son of Sam.) Calls himself a "Minister by Calling," and somewhat psychic. He is VERY convinced this is a Satanic cult at work.
**** Kristi Piehl claims that the detectives have determined what the MOTIVE is and have uncovered a pattern, effective enough that they can predict within a week of when a murder is going to occur. (If that's true, that's some HEAVY shit there.)
**** They know that there is a HIERARCHY in the group
* None of the crimes take place in the Summer.
* A caller makes a really interesting comment about whether or not the killings occur in the same time frame as Anime Conventions. He mentions a cartoon called "Ghost in a Shell," which seems to have some interesting parallels to the case, especially the fact that it talks of a "Smiley Face Killer."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Gho...st_in_the_Shell
* A caller makes a comment about these being Nazi cult killings...
* A caller mentions a Berkowitz documentary, in which Berkowitz claimed to have been a member of a highly organized Satanic Cult. This organization was said to be mobile, transporting one member to a specific state to commit a specific crime. Wisconsin is supposedly a state highlighted in the documentary.
* The host makes mention of a violent video game called, "Manhunt," which features a gang of killers called "The Smiley Gang."
***** A caller who was a former member of the Dept. of Corrections (Minn.) makes mention of "Zebra Killers," and says that the word "Sinsinawa" can be linked to a prison gang with widespread connections. He also links this gang to a SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS GROUP (I'm thinking radical Islam.)
***** someone on another forum made mention of "Sinsinawa" having an anagram of "Ani Saw Sin." When you google that phrase, the first link that pops up is a radical Islamic blog.
http://tinyurl.com/5nkxam
* The host rattles off a bunch of video games in which the smiley face symbol is present. One leaps out at me; Smiley Commandos, where the smiley faces play to outsmart each other.
**** A caller in Michigan makes mention of a friend's death in '91. His friend disappeared from a club and was found later in the river. It was said that the friend, who was Black, was seen being chased through the city by a group of White men. Kristi Piehl makes mention that not all of the victims were Caucasian and that in fact, if there was a mention of the victims being all White, the killers seemed to make sure that the next couple were minorities. (Kinda shows that they like to follow media coverage of the case)
**** Another caller made mention earlier of the report that Christopher Jenkins supposedly went off with a prostitute. A second caller called in and suggested THAT could be the lure; that a woman would lower a young man's defenses and increase his comfort level.
I totally see this as being something more than a bunch of accidental drowning deaths. I have at least one foot in the boat. I'm gonna stick with one of two possibilities:
1) Some folks are playing a really sick game, possibly keeping score with a point system or a general oneupmanship.
2) Some radical/satanic group has a clear agenda and I still believe that water has a symbolic significance.
Now I will allow my fingers to uncramp...lol
Good article here:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/
..._link_in_4.html
12 smiley faces have been found at drowning scenes in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Wisconsin and Iowa. The crude drawings vary in size, shape and color and at least one had a chilling message written next to it: "THE EVIL, HAPPY, SMILEY MAN."
*In 2003, they traveled to Minnesota where college student Chris Jenkins was found dead in the Mississippi - thought to be a drunken accident.
*"It screamed homicide," said Gannon. Jenkins was found floating on his back with his arms crossed on his chest - an unusual pose for a drowned person.
Luke- I have been hesitiant to be the first one to put that out there, but since you were kind enough to be the one to get the first jab on the voodoo doll- BINGO.
Satanic or Occult Based Group/followers with a crystal clear agenda and mission.
The Satanic pannick in this scenario is justified, imo.
The latest in my travels through the blogosphere today.
Kristi will be doing an update tomorrow night.
20/20 is working on an entire hour. No air date yet.
The detectives will reveal more about the Lacrosse cases at some point in the future.
Chris Jenkins family is very upset with an article from a local Mpls. Mag that attacked the family. (I haven't been able to find said article)
Novice Slueth- You brought up the key issue working against a it being a group. Keeping it secret. You said, "Anyone that has worked in an office or has a group of friends realize that secrets are about as easily kept as nailing jello to a wall." Here are a few ideas for you to consider that might work to counter what you described.
1.To start with, this would not be your usual mix of people thrown together in a workplace. These would be people who were outsiders, social rejects in high school, and maybe well before. Kicked out of or never allowed into the general student community. Sometimes for good but often for petty reasons. They become loners or form their own small groups. Constant ridicule most every time they say something conditions them to become very tight-lipped by nature. To stay loyal to their group.
2. While they may live in different cities, they may live in pairs (or more) sharing a place. Always being around other group members.
3. twadorno mentioned another point, online gaming. I've seen some people who just live and breathe certain games. Like some people do sports, or Amway. It's all they can talk about. If these people game together as a group almost daily, plus texting anytime, other members could seem closer than neighbors or people they work with, even though they are in different cities. And they might work together too.
4. Group is "involved in murder and other criminal activity "(Gannon-N.Y. Daily News).The "other criminal activity" might result in frequent shared risk pulling the members together.
5. They may have adopted Satanism as the ultimate rejection of a society that they feel has either screwed them over or stood by while it went on and did nothing. Vivid images. Rituals, maybe knowing that at that very moment others in other places are doing the very same thing.
I'm not saying I'm sure that this is it. At the start the accidental drowning idea seemed very questionable, if it wasn't we wouldn't all be here. A serial killer (or team) plus accidents & maybe copycats all winding up with the same kind of dead men? Too many, too much alike, for too long. So I tried to find something that would fit into what the detectives described and I started with Motive.
Interesting blog post from a local magazine, with comments from the original private investigator:
msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/05/kstps-smiley-
fa.html
There was absolutely no way Brian Welzien could've navigated his way from the Ambassador East to Lake Michigan.
There are inaccuracies at that blog. There is an underpass at Division but it takes you to Oak St. beach. Not a 15' drop. Still a lot of walking even in the light of day. If he had not taken the underpass, just walked around on the street, he would've been seen by many of the New Year's Eve revelers (the hotel is just a couple of blocks north of the Rush St nightlife). And it's Navy Pier not North Pier.
He was too drunk to walk. Even if he could, why would he walk away from the otel where all of his friends were? He's in a strange city in the middle of the night totally wasted. I don't understand why his friends left him alone. He wasn't even wearing a coat.
Kudos to the Chicago Police for thinking his death was suspicious.
I think these deaths could be part of a gang initiation.
Cromis: And keep in mind these are generally extremely violent, graphic online games that frequently involve a group killing dynamic as they hunt their virtual prey. I recall the Columbine killers were prolific Doom players and thru the internet communicated and played with like-minded people around the country. One thing, while the NY detective is inspired by that 1997 or 1998 case, I dont think it fits. may have been foul play, but I think that case and probably a number of the 40 something listed dont fit. Half or more than half seem to fit, going on cursory analysis, geography etc
twadorno- I agree McNeil's case or some others may end up un-related. But I also believe there are way more than 40 cases here and no longer central to the Midwest.
For me, the end justifies the means.
If there is a "group" enjoying the limelight, and they are communicating, chances are they are going to come across all of these cases anyway so it may increase the odds to find them.
Also, I suspect we may start to see less "water related" endings. Ultimately if there is a gaming element to any of this, they are not going to be satisfied with the "maybe it was foul play, maybe he drowned" scenario. The cat is out of the bag now so they may try to "outdo" each other.
ie:
Dane Willimas case:
http://www.fox6.com/news/local/s...77-
8ec874fee65f
I really don't think it's some group of online gamers looking for more of a thrill. The online gamers I know, some of whom take things to the extreme, are more concerned with the game than going out and making it real so to speak. True, they can talk to one another while playing, but I just don't think it's gamers. That's another popular scapegoat going back to D&D (and probably beyond).
Satanic cult? Nope. It didn't happen in the 80's and it's not happening now. Again, it's a scapegoat. People need to focus on some dark, evil entity rather than think it's the attractive law student or the local post master or whatever. I had hoped that after the whole satanic panic debacle, we'd stop seeing bands of evil Satanists lurking the bushes. In my opinion, smiely faces with or without horns does not Satanic involvement make. The kid next to me 8th grade science class used to draw smiley faces with horns on them. That was 20 years ago.
I do think some of the cases are related, but that's as far as I'll go. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But, like Steve, I'm skeptical at this point. I think we have a case of history repeating itself because we weren't paying attention the first time or the 5th time for that matter. Blame it on a conspiracy and we don't have to look at the fact that it could be somebody we'd never expect.
It's hard NOT to believe that there is SOMETHING to all of this, especially when it has been noted that we are not privy to so many of the details in the investigation.
I will reserve judgment for if/when those details surface, but I'm certainly not comfortable enough at this point to say what this ISN'T.
Hey everyone I have noticed a couple of you have mentioned this blog http://footprintsattheriversedge...e.blogspot.com/
I was just wondering if any of you noticed the comments left under Nick Rossini and what you thought about them? If you have not read them here is what they said...
Mykel_Is Said I came across an article on this subject and it made my hair stand up. When I got out of the Military in 2000-2001, I was in Minneapolis,Mn. and had been partying with people at a night club, then we went back to a hotel. I remember accidentally locking myself out of the room and ending up on the street in front of the hotel. I had been drinking and I was a little drunk. I remember a van pulling up beside me, then side door opened...then everything went black. I woke up on a matress, in the back of the van, hands bound...covered with a piece of plywood. I was able to get out and make my way back to downtown Minneapolis and to the hotel. The van was at some tall projects with, I think, blue and red panels...close to a rail road track. I thought I would mention this because I read a few articles on this where they thought these victims may have been abducted with a van.
He also states he went to the police but he is not allowed to say anything else?? If this is in fact true wow it could really help blow this case wide open.
Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:39:00 PM CDT
I haven't read the comments in a couple of days, I hope I am not repeating old info. I found a very interesting post at Websleuths:
Rusty@Commcraft.net
Registered User Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1
Sinsiniwa
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
"Sinsiniwa is an old Chippewa name for "Grave" or final resting place
All the killings happened in what was the old Chippewa nations territory
There was a great deal of unrest starting in the late 90"s over the tribes rights to land taken from them in the last century over failure to pay taxes.
About the time they believe the killings started
To step away from fact and into theory one could ask who a desinfranchised native american youth group may percieve as the guilty parties for thier present state . One can only answer the " The White Man", but to take it further ask the poor white man or the one with what appears to be all the advantages? and the final step ask. A christian man or A DECANDENT MAN?
On a sidebar Chippewa custom calls for a dead body to be dry to cross to the other side.
Just a thought."
--------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------
If, and I mean IF, the scenario twadorno and I have been discussing were to be true, then the key element would be that the killers had been bullied in high school. The strongest arguements in favor of this scenario are:
1. Being bullied in high school has caused, or at least been a major element in causing young people to commit multiple murders (Columbine type shooting sprees).
2. These drownings seem to have begun at about the same time that the high school shootings were going on.
3. Most of the men who drowned were involved in sports and most likely would have been so in high school. And 'jocks' were often considered the worst bullies by students questioned on the subject after such shootings.
Online games wouldn't have been a cause, only a way that like minded people could have met up and/or stayed a tightly knit group through/because of them. These people would have been different from most gamers to begin with.
By a Satanic element I wasn't thinking of people who really believed in such powers (maybe some- see the 'Chicago Rippers'-I think that's what they were called), but rather people who got a thrill out of doing something that would be shocking to everyday society. Satanism as an act of rebellion and rejection rather than an act of faith.
These things were possible factors that could work to keep what Novice Slueth mentioned from happening. That some member of the group couldn't keep their mouth shut. Though the more I think about that the more I'm not sure what he said is true, seeing as how so many people missed the warning signs before Columbine, not to mention the build up to the 911 attacks.
Emerson said..................
I'm thinking there is an alcohol magnet in these waters. It's the only explanation I can come up with!
Emerson | 05.03.08 - 7:54 pm | #
Feeling a need to breathe a little levity here- that is one of the funniest posts I have seen in a while. LOL Gonna have to find someplace to quote you on that.
On a serious note: read my upthread link on Dane Williams:
http://www.fox6.com/news/local/s...77-
8ec874fee65f
Important to consider:
1. Was missing from 1/26-1/29
2. TOD when found, in an access alley was no more than 12 hours prior.
3. No obvious COD, tox tests inconclusive. Small amount of valium and quinine
4. Small cuts throughout entire body
5. Body wrapped in urine saturated "mat" with an inordinate amount of undisclosed animal hair
6. Body appeared to be wet, but was not found near or around water.
Balance of forensics pending, Family and employer hired outside investigative team.
imo, this is the evolution of the MO, to be followed by others.
Additionally, I think the dragnet drug bust yesterday and subsequent suspension of 6 frats warrents review:
http://www.latimes.com/news/
prin...0,1445478.story
This year long sting, as a result of one young girl od'ing on coke and ethanol, nets 96 arrests, 76 of them kids on campus- perhpas the FBI could take a page out of the DEA handbook and try that for the potentially 100 of unexplained dead young males out there?
This may be meaningless but here goes:
Sinsinawa Mound, Wisconsin, was the home of strange beings who occupied
caverns that few dared to enter. Enchanted rivers flowed through these
caves to heaven. The Catskills and Adirondacks were abodes of powerful
beings, and the Highlands of the Hudson were a wall within which Manitou confined a host of rebellious spirits. When the river burst through this bulwark and poured into the sea, fifty miles below, these spirits took
flight, and many succeeded in escaping. But others still haunt the
ravines and bristling woods, and when Manitou careers through the Hudson
canon on his car of cloud, crying with thunder voice, and hurling his
lightnings to right and left as he passes, the demons scream and howl in
rage and fear lest they be recaptured and shut up forever beneath the
earth.
infomotions.com/etexts/gutenberg/dirs/6/6/1/6615/
6615.htm
ok i am getting so confused I dont know if this is new or old info. I need one of those cool timeline things they have on Law and Order. Can someone Make one?
Possible 'Smiley Face Gang' Link Emerges in Case of Missing Middlebury College Freshman
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,354386,00.html
You can quote me any time Blink!
On an unrelated, yet related note:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,354380,00.html
"A sadistic gang of police impersonators abducted and tortured scores of East Coast cocaine traffickers, forcing them to hand over multimillion-dollar stashes by threatening to squeeze their testicles with pliers, authorities said Tuesday."
"Since the spring of 2003, the gang injured about 100 people while committing 100 holdups targeting large-scale traffickers in New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Florida, investigators said."
This is a completely seperate case, but it does underscore the ability for a group as large as eight people to pull-off some pretty brazen s*it, while keeping quiet. All obviously motivated by greed, but also with no problems inflicting serious pain.
http://www.foxnews.com/images/
35...a_nicholas3.jpg
Mainstream news story re: "smiley face gang".
I have long wondered about the giant list of college age men who have dissappeared, only to be found, dead, in a body of water. Over the past four or five years the numbers alone are cause for suspicion. I don't believe it's a gang though. One guy, maybe two, at most. They travel, whether for a job (trucker, sales,ect.) or just for kicks (think Henry Lucas and his buddy Otis). I think it's about damn time someone turned their attention to these cases.
I'm of the same opinion D.P. One dominant psycho with a psycho-groupie sidekick. I suspect that the smiley face is such a commonplace doodle that we could expect to find them at many out of the way places where young people hang out.
DP and Susan, ITA. While 40+ cases seems like a high number, they are spread out over 8-9 years. So it wouldn't be a leap to think only one or two people could be responsible for all of them. On the other hand, the case Emerson speaks about does show how brazen and organized a small gang can be. I'm just really on the fence about this case. I wish the detectives would release more info on their "gang" theory.
ok well, doesn't the "gang" theory come from the fact that two of the incidents were thought to happen on the same day in different states? but really, i would like to know more about the forensics involved and how sure we can be that the incidents occured at exactly the same time. and really, i guess anyone could drown two people in their hottub or horse waterer or the pond out back and then take a drive and dump the bodies in two states - making it look like they were both killed at the same time in different bodies of water. i just wish someone could point out how this idea could NOT be valid.
and the other thing that puzzles me, is it does seem to never happen in the summer so why? when you are looking at cases you look at location, victim and offender. so is it bc the victims are in school during the killings or is the killer also in school? or does the killer work at a school - in which case, he or she would have to work travelling to various schools like .. a recruiter or a class ring salesperson or something.
are these schools or schools nearby in the same sports conference and were there tournaments or games scheduled at the time of death? we may be looking for a pervy assistant basketball coach or a sadistic waterboy.
if the victims were all found in rivers, i would say look at barge workers or hunters or someone else who has reason to be on the water. but they weren't, unless the pond and lake drowners are red herrings. were smiley faces found near those victims?
unfortunately, i clearly have too many questions and too few answers. and I dont even know where to begin until i can throw out the extraneous info and focus on what we know. its frustrating. i want to quit one of my jobs and become a detective bc this is WORK. haha.
hollyRocks- Maybe someone working in onsite Tech Support for the colleges. Maybe working to upgrade or de-bug the university computer system. A system that holds the information on all of the students. Would a college, or a company they contract with, bring in any sort of indepentent subcontractors who might take another job on a different campus when they finish?
Doesn't have to be computers. Anything with temporary subcontractors, some of whom have become pretty regular.
No one has answered the question I posed. How are the "killers" picking out only the high achieving students?
As the theory is developed on this thread it just gets deeper and deeper.
Answer that simple question first.
I wouldnt give much weight to the high achieving category. These days you know how hard it is to get Cs and below in all your college classes? You have to absolutely not care at all; grade inflation being a byproduct of the basic competitive economics of secondary education -- they need happy matriculating students. It says more about the general victim profile -- confident, well-adjusted, physically fit etc. The mention above about the apparent connections with the Chippewa is worth following up ... but doesnt preclude the idea that the symbolism may have been adopted by a very different ethnic and social group.
LK Tucker said:
No one has answered the question I posed. How are the "killers" picking out only the high achieving students?
As the theory is developed on this thread it just gets deeper and deeper.
Answer that simple question first.
They are not, attractive, athletic overachieving dudes are well documented to be synonimous with a high academic result- please see my comments upthread?
I read the other comments before I posed the question.
The real problem here is that no one knows where or where the student entered the water. The projection is an estimate.
The location of a smiley face then becomes the point of origin.
How many other faces are painted in the general area perhaps not near the water?
I have followed these cases for five years. There have been witnessed drownings that made no sense. In at least one case the student was seen on a city bus in an altered mental state long after he should have sobered up from the previous night's party drinking.
There must be an explanation for why these students are chosen. No matter what standard you use at least fifty percent should be poor achievers. You can't tell which are high achievers by appearance.
One drunk looks much like another. College dress is styled in the area of a college. It doesn't vary much in the same college area.
Tucker: Do you actually know the standard used for the high achieving criteria? GPA? Doubt it. The point being made is that they werent drop out losers, that they were confident, and had their stuff togethor enuff so that aberrant behavior appears suspicious and out of character. If you have any info that all the kids conformed to some sort of quantitave standard like high than average GPA, please let us know.
L K Tucker- "No one has answered the question I posed. How are the "killers" picking out only the high achieving students?"
One way to get a fair ammount of information would be to go to a university website. Then to the sports homepage. Pick one of the sports. Then click on "Roster" and you have a list of all the players and their stats plus height &/or weight. Click on the player's name and you get more information, plus maybe a picture. Look for things like: Academic All Big Ten (or whatever conference), Academic All American. If it's their 1st year at college then Academic All State or 4 Year Honor Roll at high school.
I remembered that one of the detectives said that the victims had been targeted online, so I tried to see what I could find. You could make a list from the different sports and compare it to the University Academic Awards and lists of scholarships awarded. There's all sorts of stuff you have to have a certain minimum GPA to get or be accepted into.
Then there is checking to see who has a homepage on MySpace or Facebook or some other place. Where someone might treat his blog like a personal diary. Might mention his struggles to keep that GPA above 3.5, or at least where he usually drinks, or that big Halloween party he plans to get totally blasted at.
A serial killer, or a pair, or some group wouldn't have to know someone's exact GPA, just that he couldn't have recieved that award or scholarship or been accepted into that class if it wasn't at or above a certain level. I seem to remember the families of those drowned students mentioning various accomplishments.
If there is someone out there who has been doing this for years, he/she/they could be very good at it by now.
SuziQ Blink34 twadorno Anyone
Does anyone know the attitude of the University of Wisconsin La Crosse officials toward the NY detectives and their ideas? I remember they disagreed, but was it polite or hostile or somewhere in between?
Cromis: Dont recall anything about the suspicion that one of the vics was targeted online. Can you link to that? I was going along with the assumption that these were opportunistic crimes not the product of stalking. And that the vics were picked by profiling (visual and maybe interactive on the spot). One important piece I think is true -- all the vics dissapeared from off-campus locations (frat houses involved were off campus too). No dorm room or school function dissapearances, correct? So I would not assume the perps are university affiliated in any way or knew their targets or deeply researched them. Makes more sense to me that way.
Found this article from 2/2003 addressing the mysterious disappearances of 6 college attending males between MN and Wisconsin within a 4 month period. It refers to a seemingly viable lead:
"12 News has uncovered one lead the FBI is currently tracking -- Milwaukee agents are investigating an Ann Arbor, Mich., man accused of stalking an old girlfriend and her family. In threatening e-mail messages, he uses the initials of some of the missing men," 12 News investigative reporter Colleen Henry said.
Most interesting is how closely his path mirrors the map of the missing men. He recently moved from Ann Arbor to the Minneapolis area. His old girlfriend is a student at Concordia University in Mequon, just 35 miles south of Sheboygan on Interstate 43.
The FBI declined comment and the bureau's official position remains that these disappearances are not related."
Anyone know anything about what happened with this lead/suspect? Is this a reference to Jaramy Alford, suspected I believe in the Jenkins death and in prison right now for another murder? Link to the article: http://www.channel3000.com/news/...837/
detail.html
Boy is walking home from bar. Somebody offers him a ride. He either looks like a hippy in an old Toyota, or he is a rich guy in a speedo-car. Car and underwear quite often go together.
A girl would never have gotten in to the car. I young, strong guy would.
Smiley-guy has found his victim.
twadorno-
discussed upthread, Jaramy Alford was never charged, and most feel that he was an informant on Chris Jenkins case.
However, recent statements by Chris's sister might indicate the family believes he was involved and at the scene. He's doing life, however, apparently not granting a convicted murderer a myspace falls under cruel and unusual:
http://www.google.com/search?
sou...+Alford+myspace
sorry, snafu on above link-
Here's Mr. Badass myspace link:
http://www.myspace.com/ja221429
twadorno - Cromis "No dorm room or school function disappearances, correct?"
If you expand the discussion to disappearances that isn't true. Michael Negrete disappeared after attending a dorm party. So did Nick Garza. Negrete went back to his room played an Internet video game with someone across campus then walked out wearing a light outfit. Dogs tracked a wandering course around the campus then to a bus stop.
There are students who died after attending fraternity parties. The one seen on the city bus the next morning is one case.
I don't have any more information than was published at the time of the death or disappearance. School officials usually comment on the missing student's qualifications. The GPA is usually mentioned.
One of these students had an engineering degree from Cal Tech. He stopped his walk back to his room, disrobed, placed his clothes on a boat house dock, and entered 33 degree water in DC in winter.
Another recent missing student had an electrical engineering degree, passed Stanford qualification tests for graduate school, told her roommate she would run errands, drove 90 miles, got into the trunk of her car in a school parking lot, and committed suicide.
The proposed theory is that some one is stalking students to pick out high achievers, then wait until that student is drunk,... are you kidding?
Killers might target a one person, and there are those cases, but these deaths are happening too far apart. A gang is not possible because someone would have bragged by now. In several cases the student disappeared on campus while alone (Guimond). No one, sometimes not even other students at the event, would have known the missing student left the campus party.
These disappearances have happened as far back as 1953, (Ron Tammen, Miami of Ohio). He too disappeared too lightly dressed for the weather and is still missing.
LK-
respectfully, I am not sure why you would throw apparently unrelated cases into the discussion in the first place. The very nature of the oddity IS the similarities between them.
Of the cases specified by the detectives, and again I say- they are expanding on this by- the- day.
60% were NOT drunk and MOST were found with very little water in their lungs. I don't think anyone is expecting 100% of these cases to be linked at the end of this, but I would challenge anyone to come up with the theory as to how the bulk of these cases ARE NOT connected, given the evidence. Even the FBI admits they can't cannot the dots- notice how they have never said there aren't any?
I would like to know how indepth the tox screens were on these guys. Did they just check for basic drugs and alcohol or did they do further testing? IF some of these cases that appear to be an accidental drowning are related, then I think the only way to have accomplished this is if the guys were drugged. I think most people agree with that hypothesis since we are looking at bodies with supposedly no injuries.
I would think that if someone accidentally fell off a bridge into the water, or got into trouble in the water after entering it from shoreline, that there would be some types of injuries related with the fall or the struggle to swim, in at least some of the cases. The fact that they have reported no injuries seems odd.
I still don't know what to think. I am waiting to hear more evidence from the detectives before being completely sold on an organized killer(s), but damnit it certainly does stink.
Emerson-
GHB and ketamine are virtually untraceable in a body, pre or post mortem after 8 hours. I'm with you on the drugging theory.
Regarding the different signs of say falling off the bridge, attempting to save yourself, etc, absolutely they would show, however, in a decedant, it goes through trauma that could mask that. Additionally, 2 things:
2 victims were found in their cars.
2 victims were found in an obviously posed post mortem position.
In almost EVERY case, there are evidence markers (belonging to the vic)at an unexplainable part of town that would have been illogical to the victim's location when found.
Additionally, these detectives are reviewing in upwards of 90 ADDITIONAL possibly related cases, some that have not been found in water.
Blink...The point I make is that the smiley face killer pattern does not exist.
No one knows where or when the student entered the water. Therefore finding a smiley face is meaningless. There is no evidence that the graffiti is located at the site of the accident. The drowning deaths are a part of a larger problem.
When you look at these cases there is little to tell you what happened. One case shows that the victim fell down the bank then ran out on the ice until he reached open water where he drowned. There were no other footprints in snow to show that someone was chasing him. He must have hallucinated that.
There is a simple problem that would cause such a situation and it would include high achieving students almost exclusively.
The first thing to prove is that there is a pattern. To decide that examine all the student deaths not just cherry pick the drownings. This discussion fails in that it begins with the faulty assumption.
Some of these cases are believed to be suicides. They are accidental deaths while having a mental break.
LK
In theory, I partly agree with you.
The discussion should be expanded to include the known similarities between the cases and by exclusion work backward. I personally feel there are connections to other cases where the vic has either not been recovered, or not found in water.
For me, the grafitti can be a red herring in some of these cases as I have stated from the beginning, whether you believe it or not, there is no way to tie the grafitti together PHYSICALLY, so I can live with it being a ko inky dink.
That being said, it doesnt change the fact that the inital geographic concentration and subsequent "branch out" of these deaths is in disprportion to KNOWN statistics therefore deserves to be examined.
The reality is, as much as it pings the gizzard, there is a such thing as a motiveless crime (s). These, imho, are not that.
We can hypothesize all day, but I think for most of us, if it was our son, and there was a question about how they ended up dead, we would fight for the opportunity to have it independently investigated to know-
The larger issue here, which I hope these cases radically affect, is how drastically this country needs MP cases to be investigated by MP professionals. I have, to the point of near brain emulsion, researched a few of these entire case files verbatim, and I am SHOCKED at the holes. I dont want to knock LE here overall, but I have put instructions in my will that should I ever go missing in some of these jurisdictions by name, that a portion of my estate goes directly to Mark Furhman on retainer-
LK,
Let me make sure I understand you when you write "There is a simple problem that would cause such a situation and it would include high achieving students almost exclusively."
According to your website, these high achievers ended up in the water because they suffered from a sudden psychotic episode brought on by months or years of people and/or blinking lights entering their peripheral vision, as they sat at a computer.
In my opinion, your theory is extremely far-fetched.
What'd I miss Big AL? Can I have LK thread?
Mr. L. K. Tucker
Sir,
We know who the two NY detectives are and their rather high qualifications in the kind of situtation we are all discussing here. Since you seem so dismissive of their methods and opinions and have such certain opinions yourself, one is bound to wonder as to your qualifications.
This becomes concerning when it seems that you frequently come forward offering "Subliminal Distraction" as the cause of one tragedy or another, as you did on June 12th, 2007 in a comment to the Lila Rijiva blog saying: "The Virginia Tech shooter had created a set of “special circumstances” for exposure from Subliminal Distraction."
You make these kinds of statements as if they are settled fact, which could be very hurtful to family members in this case, yet when I look for wider evidence to support the idea of 'Subliminal Distraction' causing the level of depression that would be needed to cause these deaths it seems to be lacking. In fact it would seem to point, at least to some degree, in the opposite direction.
In PLoS Medicine, "a peer-reviewed open access journal published by the Public Library of Science", (as a side issue in a much larger discussion involving a "new-generation of anti-depressants")
"Several readers drew attention to alternative treatments ranging from psychotherapy, to subliminal disruptions, to omega-3 fatty acid supplements. Although we find creativity in Tucker’s suggestion that excessive startle reflexes trigger depression, we will reserve judgment until compelling demonstrations are made."
(Isn't this almost like saying, "Interesting idea, now go get more evidence to support it?")
Finishing the paragraph:
"In any event, those experiencing such disruptions would have been equally present in both placebo and drug conditions of the trials; therefore it is not a threat to the conclusions we reached. In contrast, we found Sieswerda and Ross’s evidence regarding omega-3 fatty acid supplements much more compelling and we are grateful for them sharing their evidence of improvement was larger for those who initially scored higher in depression, parallel to our results."
I may be wrong, and I'm sure that if you feel I am mistaken you will let me know. But if you are that sure of your position, isn't this something you yourself should bring before such an organization? Or perhaps someone involved with running this blog could contact them and then all of us could benefit from a greater understanding of how the medical community views 'Subliminal Distraction'.
L. K. Tucker or someone who agrees with Tucker has been proposing this theory to explain such a huge variety of things for some time now. The number of unsolved crimes to which it has been applied might surprise you. There's no way it can explain them all. None.
And if the theory were true in general, a huge number of people would be going off the deep end, including myself and many posting here.
I don't buy it for a minute, and would prefer it not be discussed here, but I did leave the discussion pretty open-ended, so discuss if you must.
twadorno- I think the comments about the killers using the Internet to pick their victims is on one of the news reports at KSTP.com , but I can't get any vidio from anywhere to play right now. I know I saw a written version/transcript on some blog somewhere but I don't have the time to go digging. Here is a quick quote.
"It's a profile the detectives say the killers hunt for, scouring the Internet for victims, and in some cases Gannon says the men aren't killed right away."
From 'Shadowraiths'- over at WS. SuziQ might be able to help you much better than I could with that. Or Blink34.
I had always assumed that all, except maybe a few of the first victims, had been picked out online.
But now people are making huge lists of names and most of them will just be accidents. If there are such groups, then one of the reasons that they picked drowning as their method is because they would look just like all the accidential drownings. But they just couldn't resist doing a few things like leaving graffiti at crime scenes that nobody would realize were crime scenes & putting a few of the victims posessions in odd places. Then laughing about how they got away with that too.
If they are people who wouldn't look out of place going around to the same bars as the victims they might scout the bars in the days before they actually did anything. Not a lot, once or twice. Not bars that had the same people all the time. Maybe not. It would have less the feeling of the game ManHunt people were talking about on several sights and be more like Splinter Cell.
Odd thing I noticed a few days ago when I was going online to see how much you could learn about students from the school websites. On pretty much all of the of the team pages of almost all of the colleges in the Univ. of Wis. System, if you click on a players name you get something more, often pictures (some have the pictures seperate). Except La Crosse. Where more of the drownings happened. There you get nothing extra. I wonder if it was always like this. If it changed from the way most of the others were around the time Gannon made his comments that would be interesting. Or it could be nothing.
Some younger guys I worked with about 5-6 years ago said that when jocks in HS who were on ADD meds wanted to get high & not get caught they would take a double dose. Then they would have to buy extra from a dealer (except for those who faked ADD to get the pills). Those busts out in San Diego reminded me of this. Maybe someone could put GHB/? into the meds. Soak them? Would depend on the form the meds came in. And his dealer is someone a victim might try to sneak out unseen to meet.
Well, that's about it.
First- I wrote a reply post to LK last eve that seems to have evaporated entirely-anyone?
Respecting Steve's request to not jam the discussion here, I think that theory being posted on numerous and sundry cases cart blanche, is irresponsible. If somebody needs fellowship cash go through the proper channels already.
To Cromis- I think that quote about the web involvement was ambiguous at best. Imo, I think the reference was more about "recruiting" along the lines of the club theory or also some sort of clandestine postings known only to those involved. Your correct, I have not been able to pin that down specifically, albeit probably purposefully on the part of the detectives.
With regard to the "long list" of new cases, which may or may not be considered accidents, you are correct, there is a 90+ casload backlog since the det's broke this story that are also being investigated.
I am glad to see you guys and gals are still discussing this case - or cases - here at Huff's site. I have been travelling, and therefore, in effect, doing a hit and run on this and other sites. I still believe there is something here that needs further investigation. I am not surprised to see that the case load is mushrooming and ridiculous cases are going to be associated with "The Smiley Face Gang". It is like watching the birth of an urban legend that ends up being the birth of the real Anti-Christ! Yikes!
"In my opinion, your theory is extremely far-fetched." Big Huge Al
This is not just my theory or something I dreamed up. The basics of physiology are taught in first semester psychology, psychophysics. This comes from a known problem in the field of Design, close-spaced office workstations.
"...one is bound to wonder as to your qualifications. " Cromis
My "qualifications" are stated on the site. I accidentally discovered a problem I had known of since I was an engineering student forty years ago is unknown in any area of mental health.
Mental health authorities gather behaviors, group them, name them, guessing what might be the cause. I start with a simple problem then looked for it through history. Using that method I found a way to connect this phenomenon to mental illness. Qi Gong and Kundalini Yoga have a 3000 year history of causing mental problems. The evidence that they cause depression is stated on many sites about Qi Gong and Kundalini.
"You make these kinds of statements as if they are settled fact, which could be very hurtful to family members in this case..." Cromis
If we apply your standard telling parents and loved ones that their dead child was the victim of "smiley face serial killers" is the same. Nick Garza's mother was told that until police explained that the smiley face graffiti had been there two years. He disappeared this February.
"I am not sure why you would throw apparently unrelated cases into the discussion in the first place." Blink
I point to other cases, and some drowning cases mentioned on sites about these drowning deaths as evidence that something else is happening. The bizarre events happen in drowning and non-drowning deaths of college students.
"..." we will reserve judgment until compelling demonstrations are made."..."" ???
I haven't reviewed additional comments to my post on PLoS. The authors of that study were careful to 'politically correctly' state their findings. There is no incentive for investigating this phenomenon. It can't be treated with drugs. Telling someone once is permanent cure. Note that the person making the comment is careful not to enter something that they will regret saying later.
"...isn't this something you yourself should bring before such an organization?" Cromis
No one in authority wants to admit they missed something this simple. I have no reply from the Post Office Inspector General even though that office is absolutely responsible for investigating "Going Postal." It is easier to deny the possibility of this problem than make a few phone calls and reveal that previous investigations failed to find a probem known for forty years.
No one can prove the smiley face killer theory. But in cases of Subliminal Distraction examining the behaviors of the deceased would find evidence that they created exposure.
My suggestion can be tested for current deaths and by interviewing former roommates earlier cases can be investigated.
" don't buy it for a minute, and would prefer it not be discussed here..." Steve Huff
What's wrong with questioning the smiley face theory? I offer a simple testable alternative theory of the deaths.
I don't want to offend anyone. This problem does require some thinking and investigation. It does sound impossible. The basics of psychology/physiology are absolutely true. Connecting the problem to deaths is a simple step in reasoning.
L. K., you haven't read anything I've written, apparently. You are only concerned with what you have to say and defending that against criticism from others. That's not discussing anything.
If you'd really digested what I've written so far, you would know that I started out by questioning this Smiley Face Killers theory. I think it's a load, frankly.
I'm breaking my own policy of not feeding trolls by addressing you at all -- I just had to make it clear that you aren't paying attention to where you are when you post here, or you'd never ask me what's wrong with questioning the whole Smiley Face thing. Nothing is wrong with it. I'm doing it. You should have known that. But you didn't. You believe you have an explanation for these deaths and that's all you care about.
You seem to believe your theories explain everything. They do not. I am well aware that no one can make you see differently, so I'm not even going to try. No amount of detailed point-by-point argument will dissuade you, so a simple, no, I don't believe you will suffice for me.
I wish you well, but I will not engage you further and would like to ask you to peddle this stuff elsewhere. There are other sites about other unsolved mysteries. I suggest you try your theories out on them. I doubt you'll get any response that varies in tone from what Cromis has written or from what I'm saying now.
Actually Steve, with all due respect, he did get a different response, from me, which was deleted without explanation yesterday.
So I do not find your own response all that different from LK's.
You deleted an alternative opinion, and defended your own..
I can't recall deleting any comments from this particular thread, Blink34. None. Why have you jumped right to concluding that I did?
In fact, as far as I know, I've never deleted a comment by you at all. Did you end your comment with a reference to Mark Fuhrman? Because I'm looking right at it, and it should be visible to everyone else.
This link:
http://snipurl.com/28rgr
Appears to go directly to a lengthy response you wrote on 5.12.08 at 1:56 p.m. to L. K. Tucker, Blink34. Did you write another? If you did, and it disappeared, I had nothing to do with it.
Lastly -- if I deleted opinions because I disagreed with them, you wouldn't be responding to posts by L. K. Tucker in the first place. They'd be gone. As you can see, they are not.
Steve- I posted a response last evening, which I previewed prior to posting and subsequently posted a similar remark on another thread. I only assumed you deleted it because it was not here this morning, or afternoon, as I posted a question regading same around 2:30ish this afternoon, and this is your gig.
No malice intended, I have never known you to not welcome dissention, which in this case, was not about you, was about LK theory and was kinda, a mediocre belly laugh.
I am able to repost, but here was the last line if you need to review:
"This is the most serious form of claptrap ever printed on a page. But shit, it is written on a sixth grade level so maybe it's above me.."
Fondly, Blink
I deleted nothing, Blink. I know that. The first sentence would be more helpful, as I get the first 50 words of all comments in my e-mail. Give me that and I can see if it is in the haloscan system at all simply by searching my e-mail.
Sure Steve-
Started with :
Big Al is too kind-
appeared immediately after my post requesting the link from Big Al at 10:53pm, I subsequently just clicked on LK homepage, reviewed, then posted my response. Thanks for the clarification- I prefer to live on your good side
No, it never got published. This could have been your computer, or it could have been Haloscan. I used this commenting program once before but quit because it was buggy -- prevented blog entries from loading. They stabilized it, but I believe there are still problems from time to time.
I did get the customary email from them that it posted, but apparently that's as far as it got. Not a problem and thanks for checking-
Now that you mention it- I did lose an entire span of hours after the screen flickered on my laptop and I woke up submerged in my bathtub with a copy of "subliminal distraction for dummies.." afloat
hhhmmmm....
These guys were drunk. Suppose it isn't a gang but a single guy? Softens up with these guys offers them a ride and a drink! The drink of course is spiked? Throws them in the river! I've drank and I can still swim!! These are young healty guys I smell a rat!! Wisdom!!
Rub- actually 70% were not drunk, so the rat is smellier than you thought.
For one reason or another, when young guys get really drunk and are walking near water, they seem to end up in it. I feel like it is some primitive urge that we have.
I have personally experienced it. I have seen it. Get drunk and you suddenly have the urge to jump out of the boat or jump the fence to the swimming pool, etc. I was with some guys one time that jumped into the disgusting Milwaukee River.
Ok all... I've now been sucked in to the theories, not because I believed in the greater theory, but because one simple missing person in my home city is driving me crazy. The missing person in Charlotte: Kyle Fleishman. Its just makes no sense. Phone calls his freinds on his way home... then poof.. disappears... no body... no phone... no struggle... nothing. 300 people search the ENTIRE city and zero. This city just isn't that big, it doesn't have alleys, it has wide streets, it has some gang-related crime, but its all in the open. Everyone sees everything, especially in our downtown.
This man fits every description of the general profile. Only difference, there is no water in our downtown. No place to dump the body. He is young, successful, and pretty drunk. Of all of the data presented here, its obvious that a large portion of these persons, were so drunk, they fell in, and drowned (which doesn't take that long if you're that drunk). Drunk men don't choose to swim in freezing water, except as a group. A small portion, obviously chose suicide, but there are far too many things that come together in the rest... lets say about 15-20 of the total noted are homicides... this allows it to be one or two people. The rest (like the same night observances, are probably only coinceidences). Its highly likely that a woman or women are involved... even drunk men dont get into cars with strangers... but when woman ask? You betchya. These actions have to be voluntary, or several bystanders would have noticed the "renditions" by now. If a woman is involved, they could have spiked their drinks at the bar beforehand, left with their "husband" and waiting to pick up the prey later. Extremely easy for a woman to do. Its likely a couple or couples that enjoy the thrill of killing, the challenge, and the competitiveness. They're probably based in the Wisconsin/I-94 corridor, and like to take victims as souviners in their long vacation trips to other states (like, NYC, Atlanta, Charlotte). They travel by car/van primarily which reduces their "vacations" to primarily the east coast, and have little exposure to the West Coast. Could be putting smileys, maybe, maybe not. Its a team, at least 2... maybe 4.
twadorno- There was a report on CNN with the detectives yesterday (May 21st). One item mentioned was that there was a message on a computer that they were interested in but the law enforcement agency involved was unable to track it back to the origional IP number. What level of internet skill would that require?
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/...son.cooper.360/
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANS.../21/
acd.01.html
Blink are you telling me 70% of these young men were not drunk and the accidently drowned?
Cromis, I imagine it would take the cooperation of the website where the comment was posted and then the cooperation of the ISP to which the IP address tracks. All could be done with subpeonas and even if the website is now down, forensically there should be some trace on the servers. I didnt realize the detectives assumed so much targeting, premeditation and stalking ... makes much more sense to me as demographic opportunistic profiling.
twadorno-
The opportunistic killer(s) idea, at least for the cases the detectives picked out, seemed to have too tight a victim profile.
Popular. Good grades. Jocks, but not too big to overpower, not so big that a drug might not have enough of an effect, not such a big body to carry down to the river. And not from any of the major sports, like football or basketball, that might attract too much attention.
So I tried to find the most likely scenario that fit into what the detectives and the reporter put out when I first heard about them in late April:
An organized group with a hierarchy is killing these men.
This group is made up of two or more sub-groups located in two or more cities.
They have a mutual motive.
They are connected via the internet.
They pick out their victims online.
A drug (like GHB) is used.
They put their victims in the water to destroy evidence.
They leave graffiti at some of the crime scenes.
They enjoy getting away with it and taunting the police.
They are involved in more than one criminal activity other than murder.
There were a few more but I can't remember right now.
I should have worded the question in my last post better. I meant to ask - What kind of internet skills would one of the killers have needed to hide the origional IP number from law enforcement?
These cases have had my attention for several years, really since the 5-6 cases within a short period back in about 2003 in and around the LaX/MSP area. Having siblings in college environment in that area (employees) we discussed back then thte sense that something was awry.
I lived in Boston in the late 90s for several year, where the Charles River runs through MIT, Harvard, BU, Northeastern, etc. campuses. Something like 90k new FRESHMEN every year and I NEVER read about drunk jocks falling into the river. What about Madison, campus right on the lake, frat houses literally line Lake Mendota... no one falls in there? And, girls don't get drunk? Sure they are less likely to separate from groups, etc., but no instances of females? Then, of course, there is not much discussion of this being an issue pre-1997. Apparently that is when college kids started getting bombed.
Anyway, I don't have stats to back up these generalizations, but some of the things I had thought of. When the NIU kid went missing in Chicago (now my home town) on NYE I thought "another one" and then the Notre Dame kid.
I liked the idea of the Chippewa angle written about above, but I always felt there was a gay angle to these, in part because the original grouping of instances that got my attention all involved guys of a similar (high) level of attractiveness. One thought of mine is a very closeted, tormented even, guy who identifies publicly as straight but is constantly attracted to this type of guys, to the extent of being angry w/ the world. In some ways I would almost see is as someone with similar profile to the vics.... attractive popular jockish, etc. but all of that just veneer and he knows it. Probably peer age or slightly older back in late 90s when this purportedly started; someone less likely to concern a bombed college kid, who may not approach a van filled with native american thugs, goths, dirty old men, etc., but if some guy pulls up who looks like he's in Alpha Beta Delta (or whatever) the guard goes down. There is a sub-culture of gay men out there who get off on landing straight or straight identified/bi men; in my opinion this is mentally about "bringing them to the same level"; an extension of this fantasy would not surprise me.
From the sexual standpoint clearly there is not a record of sodomy or anything so extreme as to draw attention... but I think that something less extreme is pretty viable, ranging from masturbation to fellating the vics. Not sure anything like that would show post-mortem, particularly after being in water for any length of time.
One other thought I had regarding the stalking via internet, etc., is related to something as simple as getting a name. Drunk or not, a van pulls up and someonen offers a ride, most guys are going to be like "I'm ok Dude" but if the guy pulls up and says "Hey, are you Joe Smith, the wrestler?... oh wow, my sister thinks you are so hot" maybe he doesn't rush over and jump in the front seat but he might pause, chat, approach, and provide opportunity for perp to assume control.
Anyway those are a few of my thoughts. I have been intrigued to see the recent media attention and believe it is valid, at least in a portion of the cases.
Cromis: There are anonymizer programs out there allowing the user to work thru proxy servers that disguse yr true IP address. You dont have to be savvy to get one -- just go to download.com. Ryan gets into motivation ... I agree the Chippewa angle seems to explain the rituals and symbolism, but I wouldnt assume the perps are Chippewa at all, they could just be sympathetic or appreciate the worldview and adopt the symbolism. The repressed gay angle would work if it was a single perp which I doubt. You bring up an interesting point tho -- were they screened for sexual assualt? Highly unlikely.
Ryan2b, that's an interesting aspect, something that heterosexual police officers and detectives would overlook.
Brian Welzien's body was found in Lake Michigan by Gary, IN, quite a distance from the Ambassador East hotel where he was last seen. I think he was abducted from the Ambassador East and murdered in Gary. The Chgo Police classified his death as suspicious. I am from Chicago and I remember reading about this for days in the newspaper.
From reading discussions here and on a number of other sites it seems that opinions fall into three general groups. I'll try to organize what I've read and add anything I can think of.
Group A:
These are drunken accidents (and maybe a few suicides &/or individual murders). The result of binge drinking and maybe some other factor(s) like:
More students at these colleges than in the past.
The combination of alcohol and energy drinks that keeps a drinker awake past the point where he should have passed out.
The combination of alcohol and medications that were not common before.
Binge drinking plus the use of illegal drugs not common before.
Greater pressure on students to achieve because of a different economy.
Students comming from more structured and controlled home/school lives cutting loose with a greater intensity once away from home.
Online suicide pacts.
Group B:
Mostly accidents but some the result of a serial killer (maybe a pair of serial killers with one in charge and the other following orders).
Someone who travels for a living. Such as a trucker, sales rep, pilot, member of a band, etc'.
Most likely an organized type of serial killer. Smart, seems normal, and plans the murders out in great detail.
The motive might be a sexual thrill or just the normal kind of thrill most people get in ordinary life but the killer can't. Perhaps a feeling of control the killer doesn't have at home or work. Maybe the belief that getting rid of this kind of person is a good thing for the world.
A year or two ago Professor Gilbertson put forward a theory that a killer might be acting to relive a traumatic experence from his past. Looking for victims that remind him of himself at that age.
Some have suggested that there have been many copycat killings.
Group C:
A large number of these deaths are the work of an organized group, as described by the two retired NYPD detectives or of some other type. The motive would relate to the type of group and there have been many ideas on that subject.
Islamic terrorists.
Radical feminists.
Native Americans.
A gang initiation, by a black or Latino gang.
White racists, trying to make it look like some minority.
Gay men.
Lesbians.
A college fraternity or sorority.
A group of women who were raped by this type of man.
Group of bullied high school outcasts.
Manson Family type cult (satanic or other).
Powerful Satanic cult that exists hidden within our society.
With all the commenting out there I expect I missed some. Whoever they might be, they would have to have been very organized and kept very loyal for a long time.
___________________________
I'm not sure myself. Each position seems to have some serious flaws. Including the idea that it's all just drunken accidents.
I did leave out the 'subliminal distraction' and Trane Corporation ideas since it seemed that the people pushing those had different agendas than the rest of us.
Isn't feeling extremely hot and sweaty a side effect of Extacy? Maybe these guys were drinking and doing X, got really hot, and, being so f'd up, the water looked like a great place to cool off. I'm having a rough time with the gang theory, seems way too complex, but then computers really boggle my mind too, so who knows?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/
0,2...,354386,00.html
Looks like yet another. As far fetched as a serial killer group conspiracy sounds, one must admit there is a pretty fucked up pattern going on here.
"Race isn't an issue because all the victims are white?!!"
That is precisely why race IS an issue.
I don't think one need parse the difference between theory and hypothesis too closely in this context: "Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: the theory of relativity."
http://dictionary.reference.com/...m/browse/
theory
First time visitor. Enjoyed everyone's comments.
Not all victims are white. I believe there was at least one of asian decent. I have done X and "NO", nobody would decide to jump into a FREAZING river to cool off. There are other ways to cool down. I could see maybe one or so people doing something like that, but not that many.
Also, I attended school at Michigan State University where Ryan Getz, one of the kids in Gannon's case, was found in the Red Cedar River right behind my apartment complex. Anyone that knows this river, knows that it would be nearly impossible to fall in and drown. It's not like the mississippi with big currents. It's at most 30 ft across, 5 feet deep, no high bridges/falls near campus and the area where Ryan was found is not large. Even if he fell in, it would be simple to get back out, even in freezing water. Also, he would have NO reason to cross the river for anything as there are plenty of walkays, etc to get across.
Seems to me as if it's much easier to dismiss these as "drunk kid falls in river" rather to scare and alarm entire communities and colleges where large amounts of money are involved.
Also, why no women involved and why not cases in other parts of the country? Too many kids to be coincidence. There is something going on.
Yes, smiley faces are common, but with horns and writing that states, I am the devil smiley face man? I've never seen a smiley face like that.
If anything, we all need to be open minded and find a way to prevent these tragedies from happening. How about constant river patrols or cameras along the rivers. Simple, cost efficient solution that would provide answers and help prevent many of these instances.
Regards,
Seems like something very evil is going on here. I heard a comment the the smiley face could represent the the worship of the sun. The (Sun) of Sam was also spoken of?? I can't see these guys drowing even if they were drunk! You can still swim if your drunk!
Rub- been out of town, sorry.
38% of known linked cases were legally drunk according to BAL tests, with the error margin and the fact that at the levels they were found at they would have been incapacitated and not able to get into most of the locations on their own as it is.
For me, the drinking part goes to commonality for vic selection, not as to COD.
Cromis- great research, few things not accounted for which may drill it down:
There are few attempted vics that got away- how do they factor?
There is secondary marker evidence at most/all scenes of included cases that remains undisclosed.
Most are found at an illogical place from the last place they were seen.
Cell phones are missing from the vic.
Some made incoherent calls. Some made calls that they were being chased by "unknown" men.
All were seperated from friends.
I agree with the theory that 100% of the cases are a mix of murder, accident, and unfortunately at least one suicide that I can think of.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24882979/
23 year-old man just found in the river in my neck of the woods.
Luke- thanks for posting, I posted on WS thread as well, here's another article indicating Homicide and Mjor Crimes Div is asissting:
http://www.montgomerycountymd.go...s.asp?
NaID=4075
Did anyone notice the article about the Oxycontin raid in the msnbc link? If you scroll down (I was actually looking for the rest of the original article) it says "3 kilos of painkiller...". Were there drug raids in the cities where the drownings occurred around the same time? Oxy is popular with young kids, is this a drug gang doing retribution for a bust, maybe thinking these kids are narcing on them? Had a strange murder in our area several years ago involving a federal prosecutor (Jonathan Luna) from Baltimore, found in creek with multiple stab wounds. Initially labeled "suicide", Luna was working on a drug case involving a nasty gang.
Looks like no one has posted that Nicholas Garza, the missing Middlebury student, was found deceased in, yes, a creek on May 27th. http://www.middlebury.edu/admini...istration/
garza
Appears he dissapeared without a clue on 2/5 after going for a walk ... friends immediately noticed him missing and campus security found in his room his winter jacket and other things he would have taken with him if he had planned on going out for any extended period ... seems like another popular well adjusted kid, plus reports of smiley faces prior to the NY detectives going public.
geez. RIP. something going on.
Thanks for posting twadorno.
Yes, Nick fits the profile, with alot of unanswered questions to boot-
Most specifically, his cell phone was allegedly used (reported by LE) the morning following his disappearance, so the accidental drowning theory is out the window, imo..
Back to Garza case noted above- he was found wearing a previously un-noticed and unaccounted for, by all witnesses, hoodie sweatshirt, between that and the phone usage disparity- I say his case is on the roster-
Wow, so many things to question with this blog entry.
It's very biased against the theory of serial killer(s).
Jack Levin, a famous criminologist, has already been interviewed (you can watch it on youtube) and states that it just may be the work of a serial killer and that it doesn't suprise him the FBI and Local Police aren't supporting the detectives theory. Levin also claims that it's likely that not all the drownings are connected though.
With what we know of the Chris Jenkins case, it was an obvious homicide from the start. The cops simply chose to classify it as a probable suicide/accidental drowning thus giving them an excuse not to investigate. The condition of the body screams a ritualistic killing on the lines of a serial killer. (The body was found floating on it's back which is odd for a drowning, arms crossed over chest in a 'funeral pose', and clumps of victim's own hair in clenched fists. To top it off, the clothing was tucked in and the shoes were still on the feet, which again is odd for a drowning.)
Fast forward 4 years and a jailed whistleblower comes forward with information that forces the police to label the case a homicide. Problem is the police blew their chances of properly investigating the scene, interviewing witnesses, etc. Now the cops say that Chris Jenkins was mugged and thrown into the river. Is the truth? -ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
Again, the police are refusing to look at the evidence. How many people who get thrown off a bridge into the Mississippi river manage to keep their clothing tucked in and their shoes on their feet, let alone drown while floating on their back?
THE EVIDENCE SUGGEST CHRIS JENKINS DIED ON LAND AND HIS BODY WAS PLACED IN THE WATER. Why are the cops ignoring the obvious?
Could it be that there were 2 local off duty cops at the bar the night Chris Jenkins disappeared? -2 cops who befriended his girlfriend? 2 cops who were never interviewed?
Am I saying these 2 cops murdered Chris Jenkins? Of course not! I'm saying there has to be a reason why the cops are completely ignoring the evidence. I choose to believe that most cops are intelligent. However, the actions of this police force seem to make them out to be baffoons.
Since I don't believe they are baffoons, I therefore believe the following;
THERE IS A SPECIFIC REASON WHY THE COPS ARE IGNORING THE EVIDENCE AS WELL AS WHY THEY REFUSED TO PROPERLY INVESTIGATE JENKIN'S DEATH.
Find what the reason is and I believe it will blow the lid off this and several similar cases.
Which reminds me, if the cops completely butterfingered the Chris Jenkins case, could they have likewise done the same with the other strange drownings? -YOU BETCHA!
I clearly state that I have a lot of trouble buying the serial killer theory. Yes, it is biased. You make good points about the Jenkins case, but you still don't convince me that there is something much larger at work here.
Steve Huff, per your comment;
"You make good points about the Jenkins case, but you still don't convince me that there is something much larger at work here."
I don't have to convince you.
I think it's unwise to write a blog entry biased against the two detectives and their theory, especialy when it is common practice not to reveal to the public all the evidence. The smiley faces and the word Sinsiniwa are the only evidence that has been released and many people act like it's the only evidnece these detectives have.
I can write whatever I want. I wrote a blog entry biased against the idea that there is a group of serial killers working in concert over several states to kill young college guys. Two proponents of that theory are the detectives in question. If they wanted the public to truly take them seriously -- and the lack of "legs" on this story after the initial big burst of press coverage may indicate that the theory is not being taken that seriously, after all -- they would have divulged a little more about how they connected these events. More than just a smiley face being drawn nearby.
But you're right -- you don't have to convince me. And I don't have to argue with you. So I'm done.
Perhaps you find it hard to believe based on misguided preconceptions.
For example, the KKK was a widespread organization who used the same tactics to harass blacks, jews, and homosexuals. The modus operandi, or at least what they have become infamous for, is the standard 'lynching'.
Gangs repeatedly kill both rival gang members and even innocent bystanders. Their modus operandi, or at least what they have become infamous for is the dreaded 'drive-by'.
These are just 2 examples of widespread groups/organizations which have been connected to murdering people. I don't understand why you find it so hard to believe that a similar group is targeting young men, with a modus operandi of using drowning to either kill the victim or conceal the crime.
Neither of the detectives have indicated that the group is 'working in concert', meaning that that the members are in constant contact with each other. The impression I got was of a loose organization, with this merely being their modus operandi.
2 Congressmen have written letters to the FBI asking them to investigate.
ABC's 20/20 is planning to do an hour special on the topic. No word on when it will be broadcast. Perhaps new information will be brought forth to 'convince you'.
As for me, I believe the detectives are on to something.
the smiley face killers are real!
Strfkr:
First, the Jenkins case is absolutely nothing short of a cluster f****, I completely agree. One does not have to look further than the hole in AR's wall, the friend running screaming from the house as a result, and AR's demeanor to the police the following day on her way out to the ball game while her 6 week man-candy is missing. Move on to Casey's friends statement (also LE) where he never mentiones he gave her a ride, which he knew he had.
That being said, I also believe there are a fair amount of these case that are linked, but imo, the graffiti is and has always been a red herring for me.
So in defense of Steve's position, I also agree that the presentation of these cases has had the opposite effect for their progression.
They are not getting traction because I can tell you that regardless of what IS going on here, you are going to need to bust through the blue wall with each of these cases to prove it. That I am aware of, there is ONLY one detective that has actually reached out to these detectives following a closed case, Det. Willoughby from Ridley Twsp. of the Tommy Booth case.
There are other things that tie these cases together, imo, and for the life of me I have no clue why that is not the focus. This will crack when they find one of the ones that are still unrecovered, who will not be in a lake or river, and who was not supposed to be found- everybody makes mistakes and these freaks are no exception.
Wow-
anonymous, very articulate post, thanks for weighing in??
Did anyone see the CNN story this AM about the human feet (5 so far, 4 of them right feet) washing up on the shore of Vancouver? LE has no clue, they are trying to match the feet DNA to that of missing persons. The feet seem to have been cleanly severed.
http://www.4p2.org/
I get the "Neo Process Church of Final Judgment"
I get the "4p2" "4pi squared"
I get the German shepherd fixation
I get the four pi symbol
I get the "As it is" and "So be it"
I get the "now taking requests for entry"
I get the "Manson2" reference
I get the David Berkowitz symbol
SO WHAT IS THE SMILEY DOING THERE??
(it is the famous red smiley, not the dot-nose smiley's)
Is the a joke site or is this somebody recruiting for four pi?
Whats the deal here? Anybody...
anybody out there...
Hmm...what's a chingon?, as in your screenname, 'Nognihc Dnarg Siht Llik Su Tel', meaning;
"Let us kill this grand chingon"???
Four Pi big boss
What is that writing on the picture???
I just hope that its a sick joke.....
Nognihc Dnarg Siht Llik Su Tel
Just googled "four pi", led to a site skcentral, apparently grand chingon is"head devil" of a group of serial killers in CA.
Ok, did some more research on four pi, what the hell IS the smiley face doing on 4p2? This is from rigorousintuition.blogspot.com- On July 13, 1970, CA highway patrol arrested two men on suspicion of hit and run. Stanley Baker and his buddy admiited to fleeing the scene, and also to being cannibals. Human finger bones were found in their pockets, belonging to a victim whose mutilated body was also missing the heart, which Baker said he ate. Get this-"Baker claimed he had been recruited into a neo-Nazi cult while in a Wyoming college, which he identified as the "Four Pi Movement", also known as 4P. It was a splinter of the Process Church, which itself had broken away from the Church of Scientology. The name was derived from the Processean symbol of 4 P's arranged in a stylized Swastika, representing Jehovah, Jesus, Lucifer and Satan. (Members were urged to pick one that they could identify with and devote themselves to that deity). Four P rituals were conducted on the basis of a stellar timetable, including the sacrifice of Doberman and German Shepard dogs." 4p2=Smiley Face gang???
Will this information reach anyone relevant?
Nognihc Dnarg Siht Llik Su Tel
Define Relevant.
4p
Nognihc Dnarg Siht Llik Su Tel
Yes, I think we got that, anything besides your previously stated comments? I would think you could find alternative threads to advertise, No?
So be it?
You asked the question buddy.
All I'm advertising is that I found the smiley on an alleged four pi website.
Amen?
Hey, check it out-when I linked to 4p2 website via the "Homepage" in previous comment, they have removed the smiley face and the Son of Sam stuff.
Thanks Georgie, I suppose my information has reached them then.
http://i28.tinypic.com/r20tu0.jpg
Nognihc Dnarg Siht Llik Su Tel
http://www.flickr.com/photos/p2w...p2wy/217392894/
http://i28.tinypic.com/r20tu0.jpg
Nognihc Dnarg Siht Llik Su Tel
The smiley face is a symbol used in Nite club and rave party subculture a lot. Especially in reference to acidhouse music and the drug extacy.
I can't help but think this might be drug traffic related.
I don't think all 40 can be one guys but the ones in the same areas....they look suspicious...what do you think about this Edward Lanphear...*wrong spelling* that had the "TWO" young men under 25yrs old chained up in his garage? I totally think it's possible that this is not his first time...in fact I am most definitely positive of that...how could it be he had TWO captives at the same time period....probably drugged the one he took from the parked car at the bar where he was playing pool ... already had the other by pretending to be a cop...I'm sure this is a thought in the Investigators minds as they wonder why he had plastic down on the floor of the garage....he couldn't very well let either go since one knew him from the bar. the nite before holidays very odd...he may have his kid on the actual day before the holiday since he shares custody and after dropping off his son go on about his business kidnapping young men .... check out the following guys not far I believe from him
Jeff Geesey Date Missing 4/10/99
Brian Welzien Date Missing 12/31/99
Chris Jenkins Date Missing 10/31/02
Michael Noll Date Missing 11/6/02
Joshua Giumond Date Missing 11/9/02
Keith Ryan Date Missing 4/12/05
Matt Kruziki Date Missing 12/24/05
these are just the ones I could find. I'm sure the cops are cross checking these dates with where this wackjob was.
Kim: I was just about to post on the Lanphear discovery. This article covers the facts well: http://www.wausaudailyherald.com...1981/
WDHopinion
Pretty obvious this wasnt his first time ... and to take on two young males at the same time, there had to be a level of experienced confidence. Note the fact that the young men were abducted when inebriated ... one of them recalled that he recognized Lanphear because he was always cruising a certain bar. I dont know, maybe this guy is responsible for some of the dissappearances, or maybe he is connected to other predators with the same tastes for college aged men. Websleuths has a very active forum going connecting this discovery to the smiley face killers theory
twradno/Kim:
The problem with connecting ALL the cases is that just based on the current evidence regarding the two men found that were captives of Lanphear, there WERE obvious bruises, lacerations, and sexual abuse. While I admit in some of the cases you referenced, it is certainly a possibility of a connection, the findings on the vics (most) do not support evidence of beatings or external physical torture. I can't say for certain about the sex abuse, I believe that exam is based on how the remains "present" or other evidence that would indicate the possibility.
The problem I see, and to be honest, this opinion has changed since he was first arrested, is that I do not believe this freak is sophisticated enough to perpetrate this long, with this many vics, in this manner, alone, and go undetected, and then be dumb enough to slip up and one gets away-
That being said, I agree that he very well may be on the fringe of whatever "network" is responsible, and it could be the ole "one for you, two for me.." skimming from the kitty.
He is dangerous, and I sincerely hope they bring the FBI in on this, there is more.
Blink34
I definitely agree that "All" cases cannot possibly be related but if you have ever read descriptions of a person who has been in the water, it's sometimes very hard to tell whether an injury happened while in the water or possibly during a "fall" into the water or while a person was possibly in the water and being banged around before drowning. All these type injuries would be on the body and explained away by the mere fact of being tossed around in a river. And the sexual abuse, well I have read cases where bodies found in water were really hard to tell if they were sexually assaulted because of the effects of being in the water for an extended period of time has done to the body.
I know so far the news is saying there is no connection and this was Lanphear's first time (this i cannot believe) the plastic on the floor it's just too slick of a thing to do...if it's your first time. The one guy actually was playing pool with him got drunk went to his car and passed out. maybe he slipped him something.
The high alocohol content in some of these young men can be attributed to being forced to drink to make the prisoner easier to handle...some levels were .40. I can imagine that someone that drunk would be passed out or close to it and very easily driven to a river and pushed in.
Blink: We need more info, but seems to me most of the autopsies need to be discounted. First, I highly highly doubt they used any kind of rape kit. Second, the time from dissappearance to the time of death to the time of water entry to the time of discovery ... all these intervals are unknown, and in most cases potentially long in duration, meaning no real conclusions can be drawn at the time of autopsy. Regarding Lanphear, more than anything this case proves what many doubted -- that able bodied young men are seen as prey by some eyes and can be vulnerable to abduction. Not sure of his relevance to other cases ... but his proximity to some large clusters gives pause.
twardorno... It's disappointing if he has nothing to do with the young mens' drownings and I only say that because if they found that he did have a connection then maybe the drownings would stop....
Jenkins was the one and only where there was a witness to his abduction. I wonder if there is something different about his case vs. the others in that area that the police are keeping secret.
A group of nomadic serial killers preying on college aged males seems far fetched, but there appears to be too many of these cases popping up to not be suspicious of some sort of foul play.
How many good looking college guys left the bar/party alone when you were in school? In my experience, we either left with a girl or with a group of buddies.
Why are these guys wandering off to strange locales and falling into hard to reach bodies of water? If they are so intoxicated, how are they making it up to a mile away before losing control and drowning? I'm sure some kids accidentally drown doing stupid things like jumping into rivers or lakes drunk, but when I did crazy stuff drunk, it was always to show off or impress. Who dives into a pond drunk with nobody around to laugh at the absurdity of it?
One would tend to think that if these are more than just a series of spectacularly coincidental cases, these young men must either be getting abducted or being lured to these areas with the anticipation of something pleasurable. Sex? Drugs? More booze? If there was some sort of online correspondence between the victim and killer(s), surely somebody would have stumbled across a strange email, a chat log, a posting on Facebook/MySpace, etc. and connected some dots. If these are indeed homicides, it seems more likely in my eyes that these individuals would be victims of opportunity. Maybe they were slipped a note at the bar and given a location or were followed into the restroom and informed of an after hours get together by a stranger at an adjacent urinal.
On a side note, that GMA segment was prefaced by an ad for Maxwell House coffee that featured a little girl drawing a big smiley face in the sand at a beach when I viewed it. Just a little bit creepy, no?
very creepy...you're so right about the jumping in the lake or river thing to impress someone...the guy that was arrested for kidnapping the two young men, well the way he ended up with the one guy, he was playing pool with him...and probably had numerous times...he was known to play pool at various local bars...you know how you meet someone and after a few times you think you know them well it'd be easy for him to slip something into the young man's drink and just walk him outside put him in his car and leave with him.
Some who work in law enforcment do know about these "clubs" but they cannot tell the public becouse they are not able to catch them.
jakkal,sutar : serial killers of india
take alook at this..(with image)
link:http://www.rahulchandawarkar.com/news/
general/general03float.htm
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