Fascinating! I look forward to more information pro or con in the future.
Thanks for writing this up. It does seem like something out of a Kolchak episode.
They really didn't give any details about locations of the graffiti.
I would think the FBI would have been all over this one.
I'd be curious to see the stats on drowning deaths over the past 25 years-- especially among that age group and in those areas. A spike could indicate an anomaly
like murder.
As for gangs... I suppose it's not too far of a stretch to go from serial violence to serial killing.
Two notable serial killer gangs:
Shankill Butchers in Ireland c. 1970s
Zebra Killers in SF c. 1972-74
I would have to see a notable similarity in the smiley faces to be convinced.
I'm glad you mentioned the Zebra Killers, A.E. They managed to stick around a while, too. The Zebra Killers were motivated by a racist ideology, if I remember right. Frequently, some sort of underlying ideology motivates a "group" or "gang" of killers.
What the hell could the motivation for the Smiley Face Gang be?
This is just WAY TOO similar to not be related:
http://www.fox23news.com/news/lo...64-
b8cd59440f60
Joshua Szostak just this month!!
Some heavy lifters need to get on this case, these scumbags have been out there for a while now and its time to nail them.
This theory provides a straw that grieving and perplexed families will grasp for-- tonight's local news had this to offer:
http://www.whiotv.com/news/16066...613/
detail.html
However, the body of this man was never found, and there were no reports of the "smiley face" graffito.
It all seems a bit amorphous to me, but who knows?
I thought BTK lived in Kansas
Larkin, did you mean "straw man?"
I read a novel that used a plot similar to this story, I remembered tonight. Straw Men, by Michael Marshall. Read part of the Publishers Weekly editorial review:
As Ward and his CIA buddy slowly unravel the mystery surrounding Wards parents, FBI agent Nina Baynam and former LAPD homicide detective John Zandt search for the elusive killer. Their paths cross when a series of connections is made between the victims and a bizarre cult known as The Straw Men...
I knew the Smiley Face Gang sounded like fiction. I've already read a book with a similar idea embedded in the plot, after all. I read Marshall's book right after it came out 6 years ago.
I thought BTK lived in Kansas
sisupiera
He did, sisupiera -- I had a brain fart because I was thinking about a case I'm following in Utah. I fixed it -- thanks.
Steve
Thanks for writing this Steve! I really was interested in hearing other people's opinions on this one. IDK what to think.
"While most local investigations focus on where a body was recovered, Gannon and Duarte wanted to know where the body went into the water. If they could figure out that location, the detectives believed they'd be able to gather evidence from the actual crime scene.
In city after city, the detectives found a smiley face painted somewhere at the crime scene. The color of paint used and the size of the faces varies, but the detectives are convinced it is a sick signature claiming responsibility for the homicide.
The detectives found the smiley faces in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Wisconsin and Iowa.
Gannon and Duarte also came to the surprising conclusion that more than one person is involved in the murders.
"Because there's such a wide range of states the killings are through," Gannon said today in an exclusive interview on "Good Morning America." "Besides the fact that we have multiple victims on the same night."
At the crime scene of a drowning in Michigan, Gannon and Duarte discovered grafitti that they believed was written by the killers, but were puzzled by a word they hadn't seen before.
"We found 'sinsiniwa,' which was very suspicious at the time," said Gannon.
Then the detectives found the strange word in Iowa, where they were investigating the drowning death of 24-year-old Matt Kruziki.
Bloodhounds tracked Kruziki's scent to an intersection near the Mississippi River. The detectives believe that is the location where the killers slid Kruziki's body in the water — it was at Sinsiniwa Avenue."
http://tinyurl.com/6xpgje
So at each "crime scene", (designated by the place the detectives believe the bodies were placed/thrown into the water), there was a smiley face spray painted. That's what gets me. Only someone there when the body went into the water would know where to paint the smiley face. How many smiley faces are painted on areas surrounding these areas? Are there more then one? Could I find one on bridges across the country? The fact that they had more then one death in one evening with the same signature also raises the hairs. But I have to admit to feeling like Steve in that it seems so improbable based on history.
IDK if I buy into their being 40 victims. In fact, I find that number hard to believe, but there are too many cases in the same general area not to have some kind of common denominator beyond alcohol.
NHKC- From your article: "It's still unclear why Szostak's cell phone was found near a stolen DEC vehicle."
This is another part of the detectives case theory. In many of the cases items belonging to the victims are found in the opposite direction of the body of water they are later found in, presumably left to throw people off the trail.
I do agree with many people who have said that had this been a bunch of girls dying this same way the attention to these cases would be ten fold.
another serial gang murder case, Jakkal Sutar, 1976-77, involved five college students killing for the THRILL of it.
http://potoba.blogspot.com/2008/
...thalipeeth.html
I have to admit that I'm tempted to drive around the area where Justin Gaines was last seen here in the Atlanta area and see if I note any smiley faces.
First, Steve, thank you. I saw this headline on CNN.com, and was peeved because it was a video link only (no sound card at work). So, of course, I bop over to this blog, and you're covering it. 
Second -- sorry, one of my pet peeves -- a theory is something that's been *proved*. If a conjecture has not yet been proved, it's a *hypothesis*. By calling an unproved conjecture a "theory", we give it more credence than it deserves. Okay. Minor peeve ranting done (though you should hear me yelling at the TV when Mythbusters mixes the words up, too, and they should know better :D).
I'm with you on this one, though. I doubt it's a gang. Serial killers have traveled before; it's entirely likely that this is one person who travels a lot.
It seems to me that the retired detectives in the case are making connections where they might not exist. Like, if you really look for smiley face graffitti within a range of 100 yards of ANYTHING you could probably find it...and gettng drunk and falling in a body of water probably isn't that rare among college kids. Usually, your friends fish you out and you have a funny story to tell, but if you're walking alone, late at night...
"it's entirely likely that this is one person who travels a lot."
Chris, you're saying you think it's one killer? I'm still closer to the other Steve's line of reasoning above -- "[getting] drunk and falling in a body of water probably isn't that rare among college kids."
I think the problem with the detectives hypothesis is they do not adress the "why" factor. Secondly, they do not address similar cases of missing men that have yet to be found, or have been found, but not in water, but all other criteria fits.
Has anyone considered it might not be "the killers" posting the smiley face, but someone else? There is not a single documented case of a serial killer using "drowning" as a way of exacting death to their victim.
Chris- I will now use "hypothesis" from now on! lol! I have those same pet peeves about things. Steve now has me totally annoyed with people who insist on calling their comments "blogging". (Greta being the most famous among them.)
Blink34- The detectives did address part of what you mentioned about men who go missing under the same circumstances, (Justin Gaines and Brian Shaffer for instance), and are never recovered. They hypothesize that the men who are never found who may be linked may have had body trauma from possibly putting up a fight, and therefore are not drowned because it would ruin the "accidental drowning" COD. They also think these may be bodies that have, for some reason, just not turned up in the water, possibly being washed out to an area never to be found for example.
Steve- I'm w/ ya on wanting to go look for smiley faces. I want to know the odds on that one. If it was a more complex signature I'd be more willing to believe this was organized, but a smiley face is so simple and common. Also, why is it that there is a concentration of these cases in certain areas and not across the country? Lots of college campuses or bars are located near bodies of water. I wish we had the stats on this to compare across the nation.
Blink34- If the smiley faces are done by random people then it would make sense, but I don't think someone is specifically going back to the crime scenes and leaving them since they are in different states.
I wonder if they have done any paint testing on the smiley faces to see if they can at least link some of them.
Steve said: I thought BTK lived in Kansas
sisupiera
He did, sisupiera -- I had a brain fart because I was thinking about a case I'm following in Utah. I fixed it -- thanks.
Steve
***
Oh My, if it's the one I think it is...You have my email addy (Wink,Wink).
Emerson- Yes I agree they have adressed those cases in part, I was more referring to what particular info they have within those that ties them to the others, in their opinion, other than the obvious.
Without question, it does not make sense that "a person" would travel from state to state and suffer permanent index finger damage, thus the network issue is plausible, imo.
For the record, there were 22 smiley faces and 6 smilies with horns, I believe the six with horns are all red, others vary.
I sense in all of this the fallacy of inductive reasoning. i.e. The scene of each disappearance sports a "smiley face" thus the smiley face must be the signature of a gang of murderers.
It makes as much sense as
1. Serial killers eat cheerios for breakfast.
2. You eat cheerios for breakfast.
Thus, you must be a serial killer. (When in fact, both are simply cereal killers.)
I wish I could say I meant Straw Man, Steve, but I haven't read the book. Of course "straw man" would work in the traditional sense as well. I just can't take this notion seriously until I see that these detectives have something more substantive than grasping at straws in the wind.
At WS last night there was a little bit of discussion regarding the statistics of drowning. Absolutely it's a likely cause of death for young males. What I find interesting though is when you remove from the numbers, the fact that most of the drownings in the statistical numbers are in warmer weather months, involve waters sports, and is in the presence of others. Then it seems to me that the likely hood of a college age male deciding to go on a swim at 2am in a freezing river highly unlikely. IMO, we just shouldn't see this many of those.
Also, from what I have gathered. There were 22 smiley faces. Nine had horns drawn on them. The first one was located when investigating Chris Jenkins. So we have 22 smiley's out of 40 cases. IMO, if there is a serial Killer gang, LE shouldn't exclude a case based on whether a smiley is found near a scene or not, as not all the scenes have smiley's.
When the detectives say that some of the deaths happened on the same night, are they talking about when the young men disappeared, or when they drowned? I believe that in some of the cases, there was evidence which would indicate a significant time lapse between the last sighting and the actual drowning.
Even if some of the drownings are connected, I think it is far more likely to have been at the hands of one killer, or maybe a dominate killer who exerts some kind of control over a helper or two. Maybe killer triplet brothers named Darrell who were the result of inbreeding; born in the '60's to parents who were first cousins on LSD. They'd have to use the normal-looking little sister/cousin to get the victim out of the bar, though.
One article said that 12 other symbols were also found. Could they all be emoticons? Seems to me that bored teens who aren't gangbangers might spraypaint emoticons in remote areas near water. I guess creepy sociopathic serial killers might do the same thing.
I'd like to believe the investigators are on the right track, but so many variables leave me wondering.
This week in Hamilton Ohio, a young woman headed home from a night at the bar tried to cross a creek. She tripped, fell, and drowned. They aren't necessarily "going swimming." Just being foolish.
"In Scott Jenkins's case, the water in his body was tested to find out where he'd been thrown (or fallen) in."
It's Chris Jenkins, not Scott.
Shit. Thank you, Big Huge Al. I'm overextended, I think -- two stupid goofs in one post. *blushes*.
I'm a bit on the fence regarding a gang or killing club being involved here. I'm still waiting to hear more info from Gannon and Duarte about that.
I feel the same as you Susan. I feel it's maybe 3 perps working together and that when looked at more closely the 40+ cases can be culled down to maybe only the 22 that have smiley's.
RE: Larkin | 04.30.08 - 10:52 am
******
Oh very true it happens. That's why I think the cases could be culled down more. However, many of the rivers involved are large and already have a pedestrian barrier of some sort. Such as a promenade type walkway, then a retaining wall with steps leading down to the river edge, then several feet of large sharp rocks before the rivers edge.
I've gone fishing at dams and rivers where they use these large rocks. And there is a reason for that. They are very difficult to walk on. You are more likely to break an ankle or get your foot caught in between the rocks than to fall in.
Why not look at crime scenes that have rocks?
Sorry to be fascetious, but have they even concluded that these smileys were done by the same person, and if they were if even one of them is conclusively linked to an actual death?
A "smiley face" is still too broad to be a linking factor. The whole story reads like a plot line for CSI: New York, the least of the Bruckheimer efforts.
you have to admit though...the sinsinua (or however you spell that word) grafiti was a little..um....perplexing seeing as it was found hundreds of miles away from a separate incident that the dicks think is connected.
I live in Minneapolis and have been to many of the places mentioned in the Chris Jenkins story, including the bar he was kicked out of and the bridge he was supposedly tossed from. It is my understanding that the Minneapolis Police Department has a suspect or suspects in his murder, but not enough evidence to charge him/them. If there truly is a group of killers, the suspect or suspects in the Jenkins case are possibly linked to this group. I can't remember the name of one of the suspects, but he is currently in prison for a murder that happened in Minnesota. If someone here wants to research this angle, please do so.
Jaramy Alford is the name.
I can tell you one thing about Jaramy Alford. His parents can't spell!
the urban dictionary states that the definition of BUZZKILL is something that spoils or ruins an otherwise enjoyable event; especially when in relation to a drunk or drug induced high.
Also, I just sent this to Steve via contact form:
BIG IF this group were to be so nationally widespread it obviously was not one person recruiting other serial murders randomly around the country. (ANOTHER BIG) IF, this is infact a real murder group I could see it being a criminal subgroup WITHIN A PREVIOUSLY EXISTING GROUP like a fraternity. ~snip~
The rest of my thoughts are too inflamatory to post on what kind of prexisting groups I had in mind when I sent that to Steve~o.
I just feel that to just laugh off the smiley faces and drunks falling in water we are no better than the LE that did the similar brushing off.
Two seasoned and decorated dicks have spent their time and money....AND LOTS OF TIME AND MONEY, in this. I do not think it should be taken lightly at all. It truly is shocking and unbelievable and the smiley face crap is icing on a very strange cake indeed!
Sometimes it IS a zebra.
Do you think Gannon would mortgage his home and ten years of his retirement to go zebra hunting?
I have researched this issue fairly thoroughly, and it was my conclusion that he is an informant in this case as an attempt to get a better deal on his murder conviction, for which he is doing life.
However, if memory serves, he and his younger brother were caught attempting to dump their victim's car in the river following his murder and attempted cover up via arson. The victim was their roomate.
I'm not buying the gang thing. BUT it seems like fairly smart, young white men end up dead in water after drinking than most people. Then again, maybe those cases just get more coverage than others, or maybe some of these guys are just more prone to drinking heavily - to deal with the stress of familial expectations, or the workload, or.... ??
Off-topic but: Szostak's disappearance has always bothered me, and my heart breaks for his family, hardcore. The second autopsy also ruled it a case of accidental drowning, but the whole story just seems so bizarre.
I know this will not sound right, but I can't think of a way to phrase it so it does, but a part of me wishes they'd found something because at least then, there'd be a possibility of answers for his family at some point.
Whether the deaths are linked or not is a questions probably best answered by a mathemician or a statistician or an actuary than by law enforcement. I'm a retired investigator & an amateur statistician & I don't have all the facts but even before I knew about the smiley face graffiti I thought the # of drownings of yong men w/lots of similarities was too coincidental to swallow whole
Nursebeeme-
I agree completely. I just really wish they had gone through a PR firm first- as ridiculous as that sounds, it would have, imo, significantly helped their cause.
richard...you need to check out shadow's statistical angle on this case(s). After you look at it let us know what you think
http://crimsonshadows.net/compon...pper/Itemid,27/
Richard-
I believe Dr.D. Lee Gilbertson, who is the third investigator on the case, is a logistical probability and Statistics Expert, and either former or current Professor of same.
"I have researched this issue fairly thoroughly, and it was my conclusion that he is an informant in this case as an attempt to get a better deal on his murder conviction, for which he is doing life."
Perhaps someone with Steve's internet investigation skills can find out whether or not these Alford brothers had an online presence, and if they can be connected to a group/subculture that could be tied to the so-called murders. If the elder Alford is an informant, where did he hear about Chris Jenkins and what did he say about his murder?
richard...this is the article shadow wrote that has her statistical take to go with the map
http://crimsonshadows.net/conten...ent/view/95/49/
Big Huge Al (love typing that, btw.)
that's a great suggestion. As far as how he got into the Chris Jenkins case as an informant, which is my opinion, not a stated fact that I am aware of, has not been made public.
Minn. PD has acknowledged speaking with him, but that's it.
http://www.myspace.com/ja221429
I guess he spells it "Jeramy."
I searched "Jaramy Alford" and found an interesting snippet from an article:
"Jaramy and Luis Alford say they're more than brothers. They're best friends, and when Luis was 14, he moved from Iowa to live in the Twin Cities area with his older brother, who became his surrogate father. But Luis Alford followed his brother into a life of drug addiction and sometimes homelessness that led them to seek temporary shelter with Douglas Miller in his New Brighton mobile home. On ... (Wed, 24 Jan 2007 03:40:09 GMT)"
I tried to access the rest, but it was no longer available.
I find the relationship between the brothers interesting. It seems to fit the pattern I jokingly suggested in my previous comment:
"Even if some of the drownings are connected, I think it is far more likely to have been at the hands of one killer, or maybe a dominate killer who exerts some kind of control over a helper or two. Maybe killer triplet brothers named Darrell..."
Big Huge Al- it seems you are correct in spelling the name "Jaramy".
Yeesh- Hot off the Press, unfortunately:
http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/...4f0aff9&
rss=112
This guy, from St. Paul Minn, goes missing the weekend (4/27) the detectives are in town, day before the NY press conference and junket, IN HIS COSTUME worn for a costume party, found in a pond on campus (4/30).
Chris Jenkins, the flagshig case to this theory, was found in his Halloween costume, an Indian.
this was an interesting read. before reading this site, i read a related story on the local news site...
http://www.thepittsburghchannel....785/
detail.html
“The scene of each disappearance sports a 'smiley face' thus the smiley face must be the signature of a gang of murderers.”
Indeed Larkin. This is a classic logical fallacy: Non Sequitur
There could be a true connection here, but more connective information is needed before considering this to be fact. It warrants exploration, as Steve’s blog states, but until there is more proof, mark me on the skeptical side too.
Another piece of info from Gannon and Duarte that I recalled this morning is the fact they believe some of the victims were targeted over the internet. Facebook? Myspace? Or what about gaming such as Xbox live? At WS we discussed a game called Manhunt that features "The Smiley Face Gang". Google and youtube it and tell me what you think.
Regarding:Big Huge Al | 04.30.08 - 12:10 pm | #
******
Thanks for the Myspace link. Notice how he neglects to mention he's serving life in prison for murder!
How the hell do you get to build a myspace page as a lifer?? The murder was brutal, that's an outrage.
Blink, I agree! I love that under occupation he says he's a tutor, ordained minister.
Yes, and under Religion it says:
Christian- other
I've never posted here before, but as a former crime reporter (and journalist still) I think the "smiley face killers" are like the satanic sex cults of the 1980s - they don't exist. Next thing you know we'll have people writing books claiming they recently recovered repressed memories of belonging to the smiley face gang.
BINGO. You nailed it Melanie. I almost brought up "satanic panic," but I was running long enough as it was.
I am still not convinced this is not a zebra guys. Look who was just found in a POND this morning!
http://tinyurl.com/64rggb
Yes, I provided a link on it above-He was dressed as Shakespear no less-
Chris, you're saying you think it's one killer? I'm still closer to the other Steve's line of reasoning above -- "[getting] drunk and falling in a body of water probably isn't that rare among college kids."
True; I was just tossing out possibilities. For that matter, drowning even WITHOUT being drunk is probably common among college kids. I went to school at Ohio University, at Athens, OH. There was a bridge that crossed the Hocking River...a very shallow river that you could wade across in the middle of summer...and it wasn't uncommon for folks to try to dive off that bridge.
Please note the "try". At least one such attempt ended in the idiot breaking his neck.
I can't help but think that there does seem to be a few too many deaths reported in this manner when it seems like there would be so many other likely causes of death in these circumstances.
Drinking and driving, alcohol induced homicide/assault, alcohol poisoning, combining the use of drugs with alcohol, etc., all seem the more obvious candidate for cause of death. Are drowning statistics higher than expected versus these more “normal” alcohol induced deaths?
Even if these students have managed to avoid all of these causes of death I can
’t help but wonder if these students who have left to find their way homes might have been more likely to be hit by a car due to inattentiveness or depending on the geography of the area stumble into the woods versus a pond, river, lake, etc. and simply get lost. Or pass out somewhere and stumble home in the morning.
Chris, Your own example mentions that diving off the bridge is a "summertime" activity. IMO, comparing that type of activity here is like comparing apples and oranges.
Please keep in mind that the typical set up situation for a water related accident does not apply to these cases. Most water accidents happen in the warm summer months, while involved in a water sport and in the presence of others. None of what I just mentioned apply to these cases. Again, who's going to willingly go near freezing water at 2am? Oh sure, I'm sure some of those cases are suicides or accidents. But all of them?
It's my understanding that there have been accounts of two "victims" drowning on the same night, with the catch being that they were states away at the time of their drownings.
While I'm not hopping into the killer gang/frat boat just yet, something here doesn't float right with me.
Don't know who has had a chance to see the GMA segment on this, but if not, here it is:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/st...=4738621&
page=1
If you can overlook the idea that Kristy Peele (sp) clearly thought she was auditioning/interviewing for a job, you'll see that there is some screwed up stuff going on here.
Here's an interesting article from Feb. 06 that brings up this issue and touches on the subject of serial killers at work here...
http://www.startribune.com/local...l/
11590011.html
Could this be an urban legend that's just finally getting national attention?
I was hoping I would find you writing about this story... it's just so bizarre.
Before the Smiley Faces came about, true crime bloggers were calling this the I-94 Corridor murders. I live in Minneapolis, we've been saying this for the last few years.
Hi all-
Long time listener, first time caller here. This case is really fascinating - but I don't know if I buy it yet. It reminds me a bit of the Satanic Panic of the 1980s - lots of sensational "maybes" but little evidence yet.
One thing I wanted to add - Steve mentioned wanting to drive around and look for a smiley face near a local drowning scene. I thought, if was in his area and liked messing with people, I could go paint one there right now. Which is what I betcha will happen in some future drownings. They should never have released photos of the smiley faces.
Have to admit I was oblivious to the "Satanic Panic" of the 80's-
How is that like this issue?
I guess the question is, what type of evidence would turn a sensational maybe into evidence for most?
bbmcrae,
I agree with you about keeping the photos of the smiley faces undisclosed, but they seem pretty desperate for any information that could come from sharing the drawings. Even further, for such a big claim to be made, I am willing to bet that there is some other detail(s) and similarities that have NOT been made public.
Blink34,
Short of DNA or someone coming forward with other information that only the killer/someone close to the killer may know, probably not much. There are going to be tons of skeptics, but I will agree with the school of thought that says these skeptics probably would be numbered considerably less if the victims were FORTY young women instead of FORTY young men.
Luke-
Agreed on both counts-
I guess then the "mystery gang" is smarter than we think to pick the group less more likely to draw skeptics.
The Satanic Panic was the hysteria accompanying many cases like the McMartin Preschool trial, where innocent people where accused of being part of a Satanic cult that practiced horrific sexual abuse on children. The only problem was there was no actual evidence any of the increasingly absurd crimes they were charged with actually happened. There was a belief by many (which is still hanging in there) that there was an organized network of Satanists in our schools, police departments, and government who abused and even sacrificed thousands of children. Again, the only problem was there was never a single piece of evidence. (This didn't stop a high-quality journalist like Geraldo Rivera from fanning the flames of hysteria with a TV special called "Satan's Underground"). My own sister-in-law, a born-again Christian and lovely human being, once told me about how Satanists recruit kids in public schools. (I obviously missed that list - I really was an underachiever!) That was a long time ago and she has never mentioned it since.
I made the connection because I see this as possibly the same kind of boogeyman-type of story. Scary and incredible if it's true, and the kind of conspiracy some people latch onto even if it's just an urban legend.
I'm not saying these drownings aren't connected. We have one definite homicide and a few odd connections. But I'm skeptical. I wouldn't start looking for for an organized, police-taunting murder cult straight out of a Jerry Bruckheimer show until I see more evidence.
Evidence would be signs of blunt force trauma, traces of drugs, signs of a struggle, anything that would prove that the bulk of these cases weren't just poor guys who were drunk and slipped. How about a strange vehicle seen shadowing them or riving away from the scenes?
Also, I'd love to see national statistics on drownings. Are more healthy young men really drowning than other groups? If you only watch cable news, you might think the only people that go missing are attractive young white women.
So, I'm totally hooked on this story. But waiting for the proof.
This case really is the stuff a conspiracy theorist dreams of.
If I was to think along the "gang" route, I would look at college fraternities, secret societies, businesses located in various cities /chains, and ESPECIALLY military bases/stations.
I would suggest that this gang is driven by either a thrill kill mentality or some ideology known only to those in this gang.
I would lean towards a religious ideology, because of the symbolic nature of submerging the victims (baptism/removal of sin.)
Yes, water could be simply a means to destroy DNA, but I am willing to bet that if a gang exists, water is more important than being simply a dumping area.
This would make a Hell of a lot more sense if the victims were addicts, prostitutes, a single ethnicity, or of a particular sexual preference.
* It's a HUGE can of worms, but I wonder how many of the 40 victims were gay?
Luke-
Not a one...
Not even a rumor, mostly the antithesis: lady-lovin, handsome jocks. Pardon the line steal from "Sixteen Candles":
Real Oily Bo Hunks.
Blink34,
Which means 1/2 of them, give or take.
LOL. Maybe, if I didn't think it was the symbol of these guys and their virility that they are after.
When I first read the smiley face article I thought of a case Ive been following for a while now. Some crimene.ws members may remember me posting about it.
"Jesse Ross, of Belton, Mo., was last seen early Tuesday at a party at the Sheraton Chicago Hotel & Towers, 301 E. North Water St.
A student at the University of Missouri at Kansas City, Ross had been participating in a student United Nations conference at the hotel.
He never returned to his room at the Four Points Sheraton, 630 N. Rush St. He is believed to have disappeared about 2 a.m"
http://www.amw.com/missing_perso...se.cfm?
id=42565
"
Yes, he stayed at the same hotel as another possible related case a year earlier, Matt Soumakis
once again...did everyone hear about the kid found in the pond this morning? He fit the profile again.
If you check out shadow's statistical analysis (I linked it earlier) the national drowning average (including cause which is usually boating, swimming, diving, accidents) is skewed in certain areas that we are looking at here.
Blink....amen. I agree with you when you said this: --------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Have to admit I was oblivious to the "Satanic Panic" of the 80's-
How is that like this issue?
I guess the question is, what type of evidence would turn a sensational maybe into evidence for most?
"
This KIND OF fits that same scare...and it also KIND OF is a horse in zebra stripes.
And trust me...I am not riding on this wagon yet...but I cannot refute the claims either when looking at statistical data locally and nationally.
To do a reliable statistical analysis it seems to me that you need information on the following:
1. Male college students who were found unconscious but alive on, say, a lawn, in a bed, along the road or whatever. If you pass out and fall into the water, you die. If you pass out on the lawn or on the sofa in the frat house, you may be found and at least won't drown.
2. Male college students found dead but not in the water.
The profiling of the victims is, to me, a bit silly. Most college students these days are "smart" and "dedicated" etc. The non-athletic ones spend their Fridays and Saturdays either studying or guzzling Mountain Dew and playing D&D all night. The fatties don't even get invited to the parties from which the smart and athletic students disappear.
I am keeping an open mind, but I don't see a huge pattern here. A couple of the cases might be related, but not all 40 and certainly not the 100+ that are being "linked" on certain "sleuthing" sites.
annie,
look at the link I posted from Shadow. She did JUST THIS THING in 2006.
Emperical data. Raw data compared to national averages with deviants and the whole logic thing (I still have flashbacks from stats in my MSN program LOL).
It is often hard to keep an open and objective mind in the light of sociopathic violence as we all well know here. I cannot fathom the depth and breadth of gannon's previously published claims. It is out of this world and just as Steve said, like a good fictional horror story.
When taking into consideration the stats, the locational clusters, the grafiti, and the dedication of two retired, decorated, intelligent officers who have sunk their complete lives into the justice of this...I simply cannot turn my head.
I think G&D have MUCH more to say and much more evidence on this that they did not expose in the breaking story. What they have so far, however, is like a worm on a hook. Perhaps baiting LE and FBI is finally, after ten years, the only way they feel they can save other students from the same demise and crack this one for good.
ten years investigating and Gannon waited until NOW. He has more. I am just going to sit back and wait a bit. I think he just may be onto something and I will give him the professional distance for him to bring his plan to fruition (he obviously has a plan in this and perhaps it is very close to cracking wide open so he can then FINALLY retire and be free of this burden he has carried for years...since 1997).
Auntie Ruth, I think the best comparison would be colleges all over the U.S. From GMA and other places comments repeatedly state that this is not a phenom on their campus. However, that isn't exactly a scientific study. lol.
I also have to wonder about the rest of the population. Let's pick a high risk group. How many drunken homeless people are drowning?
I can understand skepticism regarding Gannon and Duarte's theories. But IMO, the stats I've seen so far tell me there is something wrong here and it's way beyond a simple getting drunk and having an accident explanation. Women have their drinks tainted with GHB everyday leading to kidnapping, rape and murder. I don't think it's a stretch at all to think that this could happen to a man.
I think we might want to take the emphasis off the "college students" and place it more in the "college age looking" as there are several in the possibility pool that are former students or not yet college, or none of the above. For me, GPA thing is almost a given. I have no stats to quote, just my feeling that in general, high achievement is synonymous with active, well liked, attractiveness whether male or female.
And for some of my friends that were all of those except academically, they were well liked enough to get somebody to tutor or take their exams.
I'm not on the inside, but I think focusing on the high GPA can be a red herring here, imo.
Check this out--Just broke today...
"ALBANY, N.Y. — Josh Szostak’s father is speaking on camera for the first time since a second autopsy was conducted on his son — and there’s a new hook to the story that has fueled further speculation.
We met up with Bill Szostak at the Port of Albany, the place where Albany police believe Josh entered the water back in December.
Today at that site, Bill Szostak noticed a smiley face at that location for the very first time. The smiley face was found on a tree near the water, and it
’s a similar marking found at multiple crime scenes investigated by two retired New York City detectives who believe there are connections to a number of “accidental drowning” cases involving college students around the country."
HOLY COW, WE CAN STOP WONDERING IF SOMETHING IS REALLY UP HERE!!
I was holding out on posting this until I could see someone verify whether it was new or there before.
I look forward to seeing that info.
amen blink and suziq.
The station that aired (and helped investigate) this story has been along for the ten year ride.
The investigative reporters at that station also seem commendably skeptical but also cannot refute the so far disclosed data of G&D.
This is newly plowed ground here. I will sit back and watch the seedling sprout. If it is nothing I can drive on and plant a row of sure~to~germinate beans.
My nose tells me that this hybrid plant has some roots.
~of course, my opinion only~
You mentioned the Manson family.
Somebody upthread mentioned the Zebra Killers.
Another precedent could be the Chicago Rippers:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/seri...pers/
index.html
nursebeeme-
trust your nose.
http://tinyurl.com/5a5qbn
That's the link from NHKC's post. It shows the picture of the smiley face. Problem here is that now anyone could go out and paint that smiley face after another death, so who knows if it is relevant.
I am bothered that Josh's cell phone was found near a stolen car. His death in particular seems very suspicious and I can't understand why LE would be closing it so quickly.
Nurse- Good to "see" you again! I've missed the shadow people! lol! Question for you: What drugs metabolize in the system the most quickly that are typically used to knock people unconscious? I can't remember.
Emmers! Hello you awesome friend! Oh my Gosh! Turn around now! I think a shadow person is trying to steal the lip gloss out of your purse lol...!
Emmers, as for drugs that metabolize quickly...well there are many...but I bet any money that the drugs used in these cases were from vets or procured via the underground internet pharmacy.
As per the didactic evidence trails...it was stated per Gannon et al, that they planted it in an oposite direction of the place they put the bodies in the water to further discombobulate the investigation.
Bink....my nose is smelling a rat...what say you? Blink, I love your posts at websleuths. I wish I could post there. For some reason whenever I try to sign up it states that I am banned....yet I have never been a member there.
SuziQ! Are you out there too woman? I miss you! What do you think of all this stuff?
And hello to Luke, RobertM, and my other long~time friends that I have met thanks to Steve.
Above all.........thanks steve.
I know anyone could have gone and done that smiley face, I accept that reality, but the wallet and/or cell phone and stolen car deal add up to too much.
How do you go from the Bayou to the Hudson with no one seeing you act like an ass?
Doesn't happen.
You got a live one here.
Oh yeah, and how about this slightly identical occurence...
October 16, 2005
On the evening of Friday, October 7, Albert Campbell was laughing and talking with friends over drinks at the "Cactus Grill Cantina Restaurant" in Potsdam, N.Y. Around 9:00, he decided to walk home. That was the last time anyone saw Albert Campbell alive.
The 22-year-old Clarkson University grad student vanished into thin air. All anybody could determine was that he never made it home -- which was odd since his apartment was only a block away. Scores of people searched the Clarkson campus, downtown Potsdam and other areas of St. Lawrence County with no success.
Then on Sunday morning, Albert Campbell's body was recovered about a mile from the Cactus Grill. His remains were pulled from the Raquette River.
Authorities determined Campbell's death was an accident but police say they're unsure how he found his way into the river. "Alcohol seems to have played a significant factor," Chief John Kaplan said.
News of Campbell's death alarmed many Clarkson students, area residents and police. It wasn't just word that the mysteriously missing student was found dead in a river, but the fact that an almost identical incident had made local headlines last year.
Speaking to reporters, Police Chief Alan Mulkin of neighboring Canton, N.Y. remarked, "Myself and one other officer from my department came over to assist on this case. The case clearly has similarities to the case involving Adam Falcon which occurred back in November of last year."
On the evening of Friday, November 12, 2004, Adam Falcon was laughing and talking with friends over drinks at the "Tick Tock Inn" in Canton. He went missing and his whereabouts were unknown until six days later when the 20-year-old St. Lawrence University student was located in the Grasse River.
"I thought back to the other guy that drowned from SLU," one Clarkson student told reporters. "I just kept thinking, oh my-gosh, it happened again."
Some members of Albert Campbell's family say they find it hard to believe he would just walk into the river. In the total absence of any other information, it's impossible to know what happened. The confusion of not knowing can only add to the family's heartache.
The warmest of wishes and deepest of sympathies go out to the family and friends of Albert Campbell.
From here, read this and start investigating:
http://www.vanceholmes.com/
court...al_missing.html
SMELLIN FISH YET??????
Hi Steve
I have read about this topic some years ago
http://www.vanceholmes.com/
court...al_missing.html
drowning in coincidence
I really think that something odd is going on but I don't think its a gang of serial killers;just one who use to travel across the country and have a fixation by water
There's more where that came from.
Sleeping with the lights on over here.
I posted this link at WS (yesterday?). It's a post from Chris Jenkin's sister regarding the drowning cases going national. It's a rant an an FAQ at the same time. IMO, a good read. Notice the low BAC and the fact he had less than a tsp of water in his lungs.
http://www.rememberchrisjenkins....sp?
TOPIC_ID=149
(snips)
When Chris was found we were told he was just a drunken college kid that jumped off a bridge. We knew differently. FYI: his blood alcohol level was .1 after 4 months of decomposition in which your body acts as a distillary. According to Dr. Michael Baden he likely had little or no alcohol in his system at the time of death. That is an indication of how long he was held before he was killed.
We knew right away it was murder. Why? He was found floating face up, hands crossed across his chest with one hand clenched, clog type shoes still on (they had a very small lip on the back), shirt tucked in, and less than a tsp. of water in his lungs
Hey Nurse! Good to see you here. I wish you were signed up at WS. I think all the drowning deaths are highly unusual.
Hi Emmers!
And where is Robert M? I'd really be interested in what he thinks.
Yes Steve, thank you.
Yes, good find SQ.
She is referring to the illustrious Jaramy Alford, discussed upthread.
From my research, I could only get that he was tied to someone (fellow bedbunker)at the scene, but given the sister's comments, deserves a closer look.. Again, caught ditching the vics car in the river- seems like it's not a stretch to think it might not be your first time.
When I was a student in Norway we all went to pubs and nobody drowned on their way home.
I was teaching in Norway in the 80's. Students was still going to pubs. I heard of no drownings. So go almost all of the 90's.
Suddenly half a dozen male students drown on their way home. Accidents? Suicides?
After visiting Norway, reading about these kids, I heard about the cases in US.
I just felt there could be a connection. Two time I tried to "tip" Norwegian papers about the similarity of the drownings. no answers.
My hope is that Steve Huff will try too. http://www.vg.no, or http://www. db.no. Maybe they listen to you. Actually just put in vg.no, or db.no, you'll find these papers. They are good in English. No problem there.
As an amateur-detective my thinking is this: If this is not a gang, but one man, trips to Norway could be detected.
Been thinking of this for years now. Glad to finally get it of my chest.
One of the missing men is Brian Welzein who went missing on New Year's Eve in 1999. The Tribune covered this story heavily. I remember he was part of a group from NIU staying at the Ambassador East Hotel and he was very, very, very drunk when his friend left him on the curb. He had no jacket. His body washed up on shore in Indiana. I never thought he walked into Lake Michigan. It would've been too hard to do as drunk as he was and as unfamiliar he was with the terrain. Altho the hotel is 2 blocks from the lake, it's not a straight walk. It's not that easy to do. You have to cross Lake Shore Drive (4 lanes of traffic) by going underneath an underpass to get to Oak Street Beach. I always thought he got picked up and murdered.
Oh, I'm sorry, that was me posting about Brian Welzein and he went missing in Chicago where I live.
Blink, Jaramy Alford and his brother are very disturbing.
John Lilly is another one that bothers me. Pat Brown wrote about communicating via the net on a drowning fetish website. For anyone who isn't familiar with John Lilly, below is a link to Shadowraiths post with great details.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums...247&
postcount=1
Crime Library link of Pat Brown's personal experience with John Lilly.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/seri...isconsin/
8.html
Hey girlies! Ok, if we can get all the oldies in here maybe we can solve this thing! lol! Well, we can try.
The "drowning in coincidence" site is a good one. It really makes the hair stand on ends when you see the pictures and SAME stories posted.
Suz- I can't go all the way with Chris' sister in that I don't see this being a group of "cells" across the country, but I do think there is something going on here, just not sure what yet.
I have to go back to motive. If the motive is a thrill kill then where is the thrill? If you think of serial killers they typically have a point to their madness, rape for instance, or the method of killing, (knives, strangulation, gun, ect.). Most really enjoy the infamy also. If these cases had been going back 10yrs, then for 10yrs there has been little to no attention. The deaths are mundane, yet the effort would be great. There's a ton of risk and they are seeking out the most unlikely victims, and the most likely victims to put up a big fight. I guess what I'm saying is I need to see a motive other than drowning and smiley faces. So far there aren't any coming to light.
On the flip side, a lot of these cases are truly too absurd for LE to brush aside. Guys who are very close to home and not very drunk, manage to lose personal items on one side of town, and end up in body of water in opposite direction from their home. How could THAT scenario happen repeatedly? Ugh, this is a brainf***.
Hello everyone!!! I've been off the radar for a bit, and was surprised to hear THIS case in the mainstream media. Actually, I was astonished! Someone over at WebSleuths had postulated this exact scenario shortly after the Justin Gaines/Kyle Fleischman disappearance. Young, healthy, athletic, men who had been in a bar and are now, missing. Both of them have yet to be found, but the discussion brought up the undeniable, IMHO, number of other young college guys who have been out drinking in a bar, only to end up dead in a body of water that was not in a convenient proximity to where the exit of the bar was located. Something is rotten in Denmark. I don't know what, but I am thrilled that LE has taken up the baton the internet has been passing around for a while now! Actually, I can easily buy into the "serial killer" scenario. I have a problem with the "gang" scenario. Maybe a "gang" of two, but beyond that - you would lose control of the situation. I would also look at women as good candidates for this "gang". Who better to lure a drunk guy from a bar into an icy body of water??? Think Aileen Wuornos with the ability to network??? I just think something strange is going on, and it needs futher investigation. Thank God, Steve is on it!!! Yea team!!!
Reannan, where have you been hiding? Good to see you.
I'm an undergraduate at a pretty good school near a pretty large lake and I'm currently a senior. Over the past few years, we've had a few drownings in the lake, but all of them have been considered suicides or accidental drownings. We are, however, a college town and so every single day, including today, there are always drunk freshmen wandering around and acting stupid. I've actually been impressed by how many HAVEN'T drowned in the lake due to their drunkeness. I just wanted to chime in with a current college student's perspective that these accidental drownings aren't too far-fetched to me - the lake near me is READILY accessible and currently frigid, so even if you accidentally wander in, it wouldn't be surprising to me if it were your last swim.
Hey SuziQ!! I have been tied up with work and "stuff"....most of it fun, actually! I have missed Steve, you, Nurse, Emerson, Soobs, et.al. I seriously was amazed that this had hit national news. The disappearance of healthy, maybe drunk college guys into a body of inconvenient water, had been on the back-burner for a while now, and intiutively....I honestly think something is going on.
I also meant to say that the whole "gang" thing is odd. This has to originate from multiple deaths with similar circumstances, and perhaps similar evidence, i.e. the "Smiley Faces" on the same day in geographically distant areas. I am stil sticking to the no more than two "gang" members.
There is a logical problem with this theory. How do the killers pick out high achievers?
There is a problem that would auto select high achievers, Subliminal Distraction.
Most of the deaths are simple accidental drownings. But mixed in are a few that have information that points to the student having a mental event and dying while in that altered mental state.
VisionAndPsychosis.Net is a five year investigation of Subliminal Distraction.
Schools are unaware of the phenomenon and do not provide Cubicle Level Protection or warn students.
Even though designers believe this problem only causes a harmless temporary episode the psychotic event is real to the victim.
Google Subliminal Distraction and go to VisionAndPsychosis.Net to read about the problem.
REEEE..SOOBS...EMMERS..NURSE...SUZIQ....blink ... AND any MORE OLD crusties IN DA HOUSE (add your own beat box and/or explitives to the previous LOfreakingL).
This case STINKS with Dahmer~like~ undercurrents (Ie...this is f#$ked up in a way we have never have experienced before.
I trust G and D. Good, honest, retired NYPD dics do not mortgage their homes and chase zebras on a whim.
OMG!
OMG!
Soobs! I think I just saw a shadow person take off with your shades~!
Just to throw it out here again...what do you all think of the college kid that went missing and was pulled out of WATER earlier today?
What say you?
I am smelling something and it aint teen spirit.
From what I gather, students who go to Ithaca say it's not reasonable to expect that he was walking home and fell in. The trails are too far away and the pond is only 10-12 feet deep in the middle.Sounds like the rest is shallow and you can stand up in it. A poster at WS said it's not somewhere you'd think about swimming because it's not much more than a mudhole.
And my understanding is LE in Ithaca announced that this was a case of an accidental drowning before an autopsy was done. WTF?
SuziQ....
A FREAKING MAN! (to your previous post/blogment).
My theory
…maybe the detectives aren’t as honest as they appear to be. I say they did it and are now seeking notoriety for their actions.
Team? Who are the rest of the members of the team? I can only find the two detectives mentioned? Oh, and the Professor. Anyone else or just a close knit group of 3 selflessly investigating? Most theories seem to favor two people working together. Here we have three people who have been working together supposedly “investigating” this issue for years.
Mortgaging his house? Devotion or obsession? Are either of these men married? I would find it hard to believe that they would be as they seem to have devoted a lot of time investigating this case and I would imagine the wife must have had some objections to mortgaging their home to investigate a case the FBI had no interest in. If unmarried, sign of anti-social behavior?
Being detectives they would be able to gain inside information, such as when an actual accidental death occurred and where and would be able to “investigate” and leave the smiley face at the scene of a crime they did not commit in addition to going around committing the crime when needed. Why a smiley face? Easy for copy cat killers to replicate thus substantiating the theory further and throw future investigations off track.
Funny how they hold a press conference in NY to inform the public of their investigation and the day before another male student in upstate NY disappears in similar circumstances and is later found in a similar manner to the other victims. It almost screams “Ah-ha! See, we told you so!”
My theory
…maybe the detectives aren’t as honest as they appear to be. I say they did it and are now seeking notoriety for their actions.
Team? Who are the rest of the members of the team? I can only find the two detectives mentioned? Oh, and the Professor. Anyone else or just a close knit group of 3 selflessly investigating? Most theories seem to favor two people working together. Here we have three people who have been working together supposedly “investigating” this issue for years.
Mortgaging his house? Devotion or obsession? Are either of these men married? I would find it hard to believe that they would be as they seem to have devoted a lot of time investigating this case and I would imagine the wife must have had some objections to mortgaging their home to investigate a case the FBI had no interest in. If unmarried, sign of anti-social behavior?
Being detectives they would be able to gain inside information, such as when an actual accidental death occurred and where and would be able to “investigate” and leave the smiley face at the scene of a crime they did not commit in addition to going around committing the crime when needed. Why a smiley face? Easy for copy cat killers to replicate thus substantiating the theory further and throw future investigations off track.
Funny how they hold a press conference in NY to inform the public of their investigation and the day before another male student in upstate NY disappears in similar circumstances and is later found in a similar manner to the other victims. It almost screams “Ah-ha! See, we told you so!”
I don't think this idea is going to be very well liked but I'd rather "leave no stone unturned" and consider all angles.
SuziQ --
Chris, Your own example mentions that diving off the bridge is a "summertime" activity. IMO, comparing that type of activity here is like comparing apples and oranges.
No, I said that you could wade across the Hocking in the middle of summer. The river ran right thru campus; OU does have a summer session, but the student population is at its densest fall-winter-spring.
Ohio U. has a well-deserved rep as a party-school. Drunken students & activities involving the Hocking River were fairly common. :D
My point, though, is that when you get young people around any body of water, they tend to get stupid, and the young guys seem to be the worst of that stupid, from what I've seen. I could tell stories about stuff I've seen in state & national parks (teens jumping off extremely tall rocks into water less than 3 foot deep, swimming in areas near swift waterfall currents marked with "No Swimming allowed" signs, etc.).
What I think is far more likely is that the young men in question were not alone. They were with friends, or with a group of drunk companions, ended up at the river, and tragedy happened, with the drunk companions either not realizing what happened or taking off & keeping their mouths shut rather than get in trouble.
Chris-
that I am aware of, the common denominator in every one of the drowning cases as well as several suspected missing persons cases with similar characteristics, is that ALL were alone.
Steve, if you remember the "Satanic Panic" you'll also remember all the dedicated detectives that lectured communities around the country on how to protect themselves from Satanists infiltrating their daycare. Don't consider it proof, anyone can get caught up in the conspiracy theory state of mind. And keep in mind that a smiley face isn't exactly a cryptic Gnostic symbol known to only a few wackos - I'll bet you'd find lots of them around campuses. Half my friends sign their emails with one (should I be worried????)
Regarding the update on the FBI Investigation:
It should be noted that the FBI, at the Request of Law Enforcement, reviewed the investigations of the detectives and the Minnesota and Minneapolis police investigations prior to the detectives findings. Emphasis on reviewed their cases, they have NEVER conducted an independent investigation and have no plans to. There is a huge difference between reviewing old casework and conducting an independent investigation, which in my opinion, needs to happen here. The tide appears to be turning in the other jurisdictions as well:
http://kstp.com/article/stories/...411.shtml?
cat=1
http://www.nypost.com/seven/
0429...uths_108571.htm
Gannon and Duarte began working in high gear in 2003, when they learned four young men had vanished in Minnesota and Wisconsin over a 40-day period. Instead of looking at where the bodies were found, the detectives looked at the point of entry into the water, finding smiley faces nearby. Nine of the 22 faces were drawn with horns, Gannon said - like an "evil, happy, smiley man."
I hear this and the FIRST thing that comes to my mind is EMOTICONS.
It sounds to me that if a "gang" does exist, it most likely started in cyberspace, back sometime around '97.
Communication through the internet would be the only scenario that would make any sense. How else could it be such a wide spread "organization?"
Something just ain't right here. I certainly am not "all in" on this, but dammit something does smell fishy.
I also trust that there is a lot more than smiley faces connecting the crimes. There MUST be inormation that LE is keeping close to its vest.
Interesting note:
Serial killer, Keith Hunter Jesperson, AKA the HAPPY FACE KILLER, committed his first know murder in 1990. He was sentenced in 1995. The story received national coverage, as did the knowledge that he scrawled happy faces on his letters that were sent to taunt authorities.
Is it a stretch that these are related- Yes. Is it an impossibility- NO.
Chris, the truth probably lies halfway in between your theory and mine.
********************
Luke said: Communication through the internet would be the only scenario that would make any sense. How else could it be such a wide spread "organization?"
Something just ain't right here. I certainly am not "all in" on this, but dammit something does smell fishy.
I also trust that there is a lot more than smiley faces connecting the crimes. There MUST be inormation that LE is keeping close to its vest.
I say: Yep, that pretty much mirrors my thinking.
We are all on board with the exception that the serial killer angle does not fit, 100% of serial killing has a sexual motivation in some of the aspects of the crime.
If you paralell the manner of death, the inability to control when the body might be found, no claims of the killer, and no discernable motive, I would say that stacks the deck against the serial angle. However, I do think the "perps" are attempting to make a statement. Going on a limb here that I am leaning that the smiley's do connect the cases, but from a voyeuristic perspective, almost like someone or someone(s) are trying to expose the perp or perps-
"we know what you did"??
jmho
Blink,
I agree with 100% of serial murders being sexually motivated, but we can't be sure that these aren't. Sometimes the sexual gratification comes after the fact or lies in the fantasizing. David Berkowitz, Zodiac, and even BTK didn't sexually assault their victims, but ALL were sexually motivated crimes.
It may be far fetched to think that this is the work of some "organization," but even that without precedent must transpire to set precedent at some point, right.
True, and well said, and, well, possible for "after the fact" gratification, alhough I go again to Pat Brown's profile of no known recorded case of a serial killer using drowning, I guess, it still go to the "fear" of the vic.
Transpiring to set precedent that is unknown and ambiguous to the audience with such a high volume of vics does not ring in with me, imo.
Maybe the precedent is the "non-precedent."
I seem to remember the detectives saying that this group was involved in other criminal activities. Does anybody remember a statement like that? I can't seem to find any comments on this.
I think you may be referring to Jaramy Alford as a suspect in Chris Jenkin's case, for which he has never been charged. However, he is doin' life for a brutal murder.
Other than that since they haven't mentioned anyone else I am not sure.
Envy is as good of a motivation as any. Water is a better dumping area than most.
So who envy's these vics, apparently collectively?
So who envy's these vics, apparently collectively?
Blink34 | 05.01.08 - 4:42 pm | #
Hell if I know, but yeah, collectively is the key word.
This has to have a psychological trigger and be of symbolic nature for one person involved, most likely that person is the "leader." (and my guess would be located where the largest cluster has occurred or where the first incident took place.) Was most likely of a college age back in '97/
Message boards and IRC's can be creepy little places. I have seen some of the creepiest out there.
Congressman calls on FBI to reopen drowning cases
http://kstp.com/article/stories/...604.shtml?
cat=1
Read the congressman's letter:
http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/U...%20to%
20fbi.pdf
Bravo
I will chime in on that bravo as well. It is about time someone does SOMETHING even if all that becomes of this is to put a conspiracy theory to bed.
Whether the cases are connected or not, I feel most are and not through a networking gang, the hinkyness about them is out there and the families need the truth. No matter what the truth will be.
I think that they are grasping at straws, at least in some aspects.
My mother lives in Dubuque IA and that is where I went to High School. I've been told that the police there were never asked ANY questions about Matt Kruziki by these investigators. They never found a smiley face. The only thing that ties it was that he died near/at Sinsinawa Avenue.
I think that for some families, it would be easier for them to cast blame on faceless killing monsters, than to accept their child may have been a dumb drunk who went for a swim.
Last year in the Nashville area a solider back from Iraq went missing after drinking. They later found him in the river. Do I think a gang of smiley face killers did him in? No.
Here is a two part series by Kristi Piehl.
http://kstp.com/article/stories/...shtml?cat=5&
v=1
http://kstp.com/article/stories/....shtml?
cat=1v=1
Official Police reports from the Jenkins investigation:
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/
mpdca...mpdcasefile.pdf
"Soobs! I think I just saw a shadow person take off with your shades~!"
Damn them! It's finally sunny here!
I think I'm out of sync here but many years of reporting have left me skeptical - and also very good at statistical analysis. In 2005 there were 251 drownings of white males 20-24 in the US, 216 accidents, 25 suicides, 1 homicide and the rest undetermined (which can mean they didn't report the cause.)Thats from the whisquars system of national health stats. Drowning homicides are most commonly infants and young children.
It's just not that easy to drown a big, healthy guy, even a drunk one, especially without anyone noticing.
Melanie: You need a more specific sample: the cause of drownings in situations where the 20-24 yr old male was not engaged in watersports or any water activity and where the person had been deemed missing with no witnesses of a potential cause for dissapearance for a number of days.
The general stat you referenced definitely proves how uncommon drowning deaths are in this country in that age and gender group.
And regarding cause of death determination overall: lets not forget how decomposition in the water impacts the reliability of tox screens and general forensics if those are even performed in most "assumed" drowning cases.
Adam Folsom, a student at St. Lawrence University, is not likely a victim of a serial killer. The Tick Tock Inn is a cozy, thriving establishment conveniently located within walking distance of campus, and exists for the sole purpose of drinking and socializing.
Last I knew, it was owned by a lawyer and employed many students of legal age who served their peers.
More often than not, we can assume it is alcohol overconsumption that brings about campus tragedy, and rarely, death.
Would not be surprised if the tragically deceased Clarkson student suffered a similar fate.
No smiley faces there...in Potstown and Canton, NY.
As I see this situation, it is statistically unusual to have that many similar deaths. And per stat class, anything over 5 is not random. There are two factors I think are important: First, accurate timelines; Secondly, accurate maps showing locations of victims. Also, do the crimes go as far west as California? If not, exactly how far west do they go? Never underestimate serial killers. If you have never personally seen the conditioning program in those people, you have no clue what they have been psychologically conditioned to do. And some most certainly do perform in groups. The smiley face murders on the surface appear to have some thwarts to confuse Investigators. That is very interesting and I won't post my personal opinion on that here. As well, the killer or killers most certainly could be using major roadways and/or bicycles. I've seen no reports on how he/they hunt his/their victims. All in all, it is my opinion the smiley face murders are being dismissed too early and most certainly should be investigated more thoroughly by the FBI and local PDs. Unless they can show there is a public nuisance causing those deaths, and they can't, then it is certainly a situation of lurking horror that must be caught and locked away.
What does anyone know about autopsy evidence on any of these alleged victims? I honestly, have both legs over the fence towards the side of "something going on" with these clusters of similar demographic deaths in the water. The biggest thing I am having an issue with is two fold: 1) a gang. WTF??? Gangs usually involve numerous people, and they are CLOSELY connected - so how do you explain the large demographic area; i.e. 11 states?? 2) the manner of death. Drowning?? Listen - I hate to admit it, but I have been VERY intoxicated on more instances than I care to recall - but if I had been thrown into a "pond" or "lake" or heck even "river", I would have sobered up instantly (especially in cold water) - at least enough to have fought my way to the banks and to the throat of whoever pushed me back under! I would have had DNA evidence of whoever pushed me back under the water beneath my fingernails! So, do we know if the autopsy even LOOKED for such evidence? Do we know if there was water in the lungs of these victims? If it is an evil "smiley faced gang", surely, they use the water to destroy evidence of their evil deeds - the person is already dead; or close to death; before being pushed under the water!!!! Just thinking out loud here - now you guys run with it.
Today, they took samples of the paint from the smiley found in the area where it's believed Joshua Szostak entered the Hudson. They're going to try to date it, I suppose, but the PD seems to be... I don't know. I don't like the way they've handled his case from the beginning, and wish I could find a spot where people were discussing his disappearance in depth.
Here you go Tracy (from over at WebSleuths):
http://tinyurl.com/4xko3t
They have been discussing the case since 12/30/2007. And now, apparently, there is this:
"The father of former Plattsburgh State University student Joshua Szostak noticed a shocking image spray-painted on a tree near the Hudson River Wednesday, where he was last seen alive.
As he searched the Port of Albany Wednesday in hopes of finding some jewelry his son was wearing when he disappeared after a night of drinking with friends this past winter, Bill Szostak came across a smiley face spray-painted on a nearby tree."
http://www.wptz.com/news/1609028...285/
detail.html
Linked at WS's but from the 4/30/08 edition of the WPTZ.com news.
Of course, being the cynic that I am (Thank you Steve, and all the others here - take a bow!), someone could have hurried down and spray painted the smiley face since the detectives went public. Naaahhhh - NOT! Something is rotten!
Tracy- Josh's death is extremely suspicious and I can't grasp why LE is not doing a damn thing about it.
I can't imagine any drunk person just "accidentally" wandering into a body of water and then drowning. I can see someone accidentally falling off of something, but even then most bridges have railing that would take some type of effort to accidentally fall over. If they were going for a drunk swim, why are they found fully clothed? I've personally taken part in the drunk swimming in a pool in 30 degree weather, we still managed to take our clothes off and into our skivvies. These guys are fully clothed and they manage to walk quite a distance before ending up in the water, yet noone ever reports seeing them walking from point A to point B. I did wonder if the only other common denominator here was the cold water.
The detectives did say that at the same locations they found the smiley face, the area they presumed was the actual crime scene, they also found other evidence of foul play. I'd love to know what it is they found.
Hey reannan! I was thinking about the "gang of serial killers" angle again and wondered if it could be a gang initiation rather then a classic serial killing case. It's as valid a motive as any at this point, mho.
if you surprise them and knock them out either by force or pills, they dont put up much of a fight.
were there any marks on any of the bodies other than drowning? or were they found too late to tell? i guess that MIGHT tell us if they were drowned by hand (possibly more sexually exciting for one who finds drowning exciting), if they were killed in some other fashion, just set afloat after death, etc...
also has there been any evidence of semen or sexual assault? instead of trying to think of the victims as all gay, perhaps the alleged perp has MSM fantasies/tendencies.
i tend to agree that it seems the work of one obsessed person rather than a group - how sure are they that two murders happened at the same time? if they are off on that, even by a day, that would be easier to explain. tho i guess it could be a leader/follower - in which case, it is not hard to forge d/s relationships in fetish chat places such as the drowning fetish place discussed above. someone has to worship you in order to be a hero. and so it does make icky sense that it would be exciting to have a lackey.
I don't know eotjer Emerson! You theory has a lot of merit, and shoul be exp;pred.
Page 20 of the police report on the Chris Jenkins case notes that Jenkins was possibly seen assaulted/robbed by a group of Black males the night of his death.
I almost want to say that for such a allegedly clean and tidy serial killing organization, this would be drawing WAY TOO MUCH attention.
Though it would perhaps make more sense if this was a matter of a group of disenfranchised minority youths targeting upper crust predominantly Caucasian males. At least more sense than what it's making right now. (Not that that is saying much.)
hollyRocks,
It's not as difficult as one would think to find places in cyberspace where like twisted minds come together. I have seen some disturbing stuff over the years. Some of it is surely for the lulz and shock effect of it all, but there are some really messed up folks out there.
Even some true-crime lovers come off as having way too much admiration for some of the monsters who walk among us.
I think PD on one case I've read so far, had two viable suspects who should have been questioned further. One is either lying, or both are working together on these crimes. And, I am convinced the killer is most definately messing with the Police with those smiley faces. The horrifying aspect is the fact he will kill again. I know exactly who I'd check every wart and freckle on, and I wouldn't stop until the case was solved. Does anyone have the logistics on the murders that were reported to have occurred the same day?
Gang, as in street gang? Seems more like a revenge of the nerds or a revenge of the bullied scenario with the target being the stereotypical beefy white baseball cap backwards wearing binge drinking jock. I recall the Columbine killers were motivated to kill kids fitting that stereotype. Tie-in with Columbine killer sympathizers makes sense, particularly given the assumption that a tight cyber community could form around the themes of violence, social alienation and revenge.
It appears from several posts that some view the smiley face as the sole determining factor here. Out of 40 cases, the smiley face was only found at 22 crime scenes. Based on that, the Smiley face should not be used as a determining factor on whether a case is connected or not.
I still don't know if the Smiley Face has anything to do with anything. Afterall, you can probably find Smiley's randomly spray painted in many places. And they would all look different right? And the pics we've seen in this case of six of the smiley's the detectives found all look different. There is one detail that sticks out though. And that's the fact that 9 of the 22 Smileys found had horns on them. What would the odds of that be? Things that make you go Hmmmm.
Re: The Jenkins case. On Halloween 02, Jenkins goes to a party at a bar dressed like an Indian. He leaves on foot after the bar party breaks up 11/01/02 at 1:30am and walks across a bridge over the Mississippi. His body is recovered from the Mississippi on 2/27/03. Steam Plant videos of 11/01/02 taken 12:00 to 04:00 of the area do not show his body. A CI reports riding a bike over the bridge and seeing Jenkins walking across the bridge. NO DATE OR TIME GIVEN. Steven Cox, another informant, stated he saw the body on 2/20/03 but did not report it until 2/27/03. Someone smart tell me what is going on here. Later videos of Steam plant were not requested; no follow-up done on Cox or CI Barnes. However, there was an enormous amount of reporting on the clothing worn by Jenkins. This has to be a joke. Or the worst Police work on the planet.
Has anyone even thought to question residents (homes and apartments) in any of the involved Cities if an unknown "something" is waking the household in the middle of the night? If not, why not.
Luke, I read the same report re: Jenkins and the group of Blacks. It was interesting that the Police did not check that group out that night, nor did they do anything other than a cursory follow up on the later report. The fellow who did make the report was questioned and stated the report actually came from the Jenkins family group who had begun their own fact finding. There is just too much that doesn't add up on this case, too much taken for granted, too many assumptions taken as a basis for "fact". And Police reports that are frankly indictive of someone doing only the basics of what is required for their job -- i.e. no interest in the case, or a bad Investigative Supervisor. I also read that the majority of the crimes occurred during the winter. Why? PD didn't even ask. As well, 40 victims in a ten year period in 11 states? That averages to 4 a year which puts it under the radar of statistical significance. Somebody knows what they are doing, and they have to be caught.
Tick Tock 5/1 @ 9:29pm says-
.."Adam Folsom, a student at St. Lawrence University, is not likely a victim of a serial killer. The Tick Tock Inn is a cozy, thriving establishment conveniently located within walking distance of campus, and exists for the sole purpose of drinking and socializing.."
As a point of clarification, the young man's case you are referring to is Adam Falcon, not Folsom. Additionally, he was found UPSTREAM from the Tic Toc Inn, and his COD was "asphyxiation due to drowning and hypothermia" I can tell you that means there was very little water in his lungs and pitichial hemorraging was present, imo.
Regarding Chris Jenkins case-
remember LE classified his Manner of death initially as a SUICIDE based on their investigation. They pried a wad of his OWN hair out of his hand when they found him- I am surprised they did not find his cause of death- "decedant appears to have ripped his hair out.."
Not to be overly glib, but there is a reason this is a landmark case here-
Shoddy investigation, resulting in an apology to the family, and a reclassification as a homicide.
Point is, if the connection between the majority of the cases is basically predetermined manner of death due to the victim's own actions, followed up by confirmation from an uneventful autopsy, isn't the minimum issue- There is something wrong with the investigative process??
Hey, I biffed the ball at the skinny dude in dodge ball first every time-
couldn't this be that?
Hey, I biffed the ball at the skinny dude in dodge ball first every time-
couldn't this be that?
Blink34 | 05.02.08 - 11:05 am | #
It could certainly be that. An organization of highly intelligent underachievers who have it in for the overachieving, good looking,popular, and symbolic of their own bullying/torment. Such a group would more than know the ins and outs of cyberspace, but more importantly, they would have been on this bandwagon since the early-mid 90's. Maybe at some point their geeky RPGs ceased to amuse and they raised the stakes a bit...
It's a Hell of a stretch, but there are some f'ed up individuals out there and some of these types are all the more twisted when group dynamics becomes involved.
If these are murders, they are either the result of a "game" or a group with a agenda, one known only to those in the group.
Imagine if a bunch of true-crime fans got together and thought about how to commit the perfect crime. Now imagine if those folks were serious and driven to do such.
This seriously may be the most perplexing case I have ever come across. I think the only hope in solving it is if the group has a weak link. A group is only as strong as its weakest link.
Then again, that's if this is anything more than freaky ass coincidental accidental drowning incidents in the first place.
If LE would have done a solid investigation on the majority of these cases then I don't know if we would be talking about this. They repeatedly fished bodies out of water and stopped their investigation there. I think it would have been prudent on their parts to have made an attempt to retrace theses young mens footsteps. (They may have done that in some of these cases and we just are not aware of how in-depth they went.) As a family member I would have wanted some type of proof, beyond LE telling me, that my son wandered on foot to the river and accidentally or otherwise ended-up drowning. Were there witnesses? Was there proof in every case of where the person went into the water? Are there any fingerprints on railings ect. There just doesn't seem to be any solid evidence that points to these being accidents anymore then there is for murder, other than "drunk kid ends up dead in river".
Dont know much about the Helder case, but here's a reference to smiley faces along the lines of revenge on the normal by the socially alienated:
Luke Helder's "Midwestern Smiley Face" drawn across the map in pipe bombs seems to support the article in [i]Harper's Weekly[/i]. The Kurt Cobain wannabe, realizing the power of symbols, starts a bombing spree meant to look like a smiling face on the map to spread some kind of message to all of America. He didn't even really intend for the bombs to go off. The symbolism was the important thing, it seems.
And Helder is a Minnesota-Wisconsin guy, grew up around Minneapolis MN I believe and went to UW Madison/ HMMM
As a point of clarification, the young man's case you are referring to is Adam Falcon, not Folsom. Additionally, he was found UPSTREAM from the Tic Toc Inn, and his COD was "asphyxiation due to drowning and hypothermia" I can tell you that means there was very little water in his lungs and pitichial hemorraging was present, imo.
Blink34 | 05.02.08 - 10:48 am
Tx for the correction, Blink34, and additional details. Most likely, Adam Falcon met with foul play, then...but wonder if the Canton PD had the knowledge to conduct an adequate investigation. Could easily have been someone from town, a neighboring town...or, God forbid, another student.
My direct family member is an SLU alum. Great experience...very social and interconnected, lifelong relationships born from campus life.
Wondered, when I first heard of