Ooops, guess the punks didnt realize that their communications were still being monitored.
If they mentioned a specific crime (manslaughter) it must be something solid this time. My guess is someone talked.
Yeah, but somebody better be looking at Drew Peterson's
1. visits to "swinger" type sites...on Police Time & Equipment and
2. home-made porn in his home!!
and
3. all of Stacy's emails, etc. for the last month or two. Can't they find those?
-L
Lisafer, wrong thread sweetie lol.
Wow!
I am eager to find out what new info led the authorities to indict.
How's the MSM going to juggle this development and Peterson?
I sincerely hope they have something concrete on these three this time and it's not another catch and release.
I wrote about Joran when he did his ABC interview with Chris Cuomo back in Feb 2006. I didn't trust him so I am curious to see the new developments.
Happy Thanksgiving, Steve!
Can't wait to hear "the rest of the story". Of course, I have been saying that for a while now with this case. If we can get this one solved, then there is hope for many, many others.
Melissa, I know where I am. ok, thx, don't start w/me.
Sweetie. 
I think Joran was a pretty quick study Eyes. He's very confident of where they put her body, so I believe he thought they would never go down, and so did his father for that matter. My opinion has always been that at least two of them were there when she died, never Joran alone, or one of the brothers would have given up the ghost a long time ago. But, if a brother had to cover for a brother, well, that's a different story.
I do believe Paul (father) knows what happened (or at least the "accident" story Joran spoon fed him), and that he also helped that night. How that man lives with it is beyond me. I guess it's easier in his mind than seeing his child go to prison. It wouldn't be for me though. My conscience would tear me a new one. Then again, no matter how painful, I would never have covered for my child in the first place.
Emerson, one of the things I have always loved about you is your clarity. You have a way of cutting to the chase and naming things for what they are. The Natalee Holloway case is very interesting if you place yourself as a family member in the household of Jouran. What would you have done if YOU were his parent and he had called YOU with a "problem" of a friend who had suddenly ceased to breath? Would you really turn your son, who had just called you for HELP into LE, or would you turn and HELP your son dispose of any evidence? I like to think I would have raised a son that would not have ended up in a situation that required help. On the other hand, I would be flattered and "affirmed as a parent" that my son had trusted in me enough to call me for help in his hour of need. I wish I could have had a few minutes with Jouran and Natalee BEFORE they ended up in the news.
I guess I also need to add that if my child called me and asked for help with disposing of a body, I would tell them to "tell" the truth, and I would turn them in. As hard as it would be, my Mother taught me a very imporant lesson - The Truth Will Stand When The World Is On Fire. Just do the right thing...you can't really escape it anyway. Karma will bite you in the butt. The longer you keep it at bay, the harder the bite will be!
Thanks Reannan! I really don't have time for poo and fillers when the truth is so blatantly clear. And even though I don't write many methaphors or life stories on here, I always enjoy yours!
6 months ago investigators stopped their research, probably the needed some time for forensic analysis. This seems to be a good developement. Why took it a long time they re-arrested Joran van der Sloot and Kalpoe brothers?
"circus" is rather a harsh word to use concerning procedures & developments concerning a lost child, no matter how much hoopla has been engendered.
My heart is always sad when I think of this poor family and their suffering.
B
For me, the "circus" allegory for the Natalee Holloway tragedy relates to the "spectacle" that resulted in the ensuing hoopla of the so-called investigation. The initial investigation was a joke. Potential evidence was overlooked and/or lost. The primary suspects were left in rooms together with ample opportunity to discuss their alibi and thier story of what happened that night. Beth Holloway tried to rein in and control the antics of the Aruban investigators and the journalist from around the world. It was a three-ring "spectacle" of Beth (whom I totally respect and admire), the Aruban LE, and the media.
Melissa,
Have you heard their conversations were monitored or is that an assumption? It makes sense to me. I hope they (the authorities) find out the truth and that justice is served.
Lori
Emerson -- I tend to speculate as well that Paul VDS know more than he is saying. I've always wondered, too, if the brothers helped dispose of the body in some way.
The term "circus" should be obvious as to its application here. Neither I nor anyone else should have to explain it. It is a media circus, it has been since 2005, and the ones responsible for that have been the media. No apologies for using it, and I'll use it again.
Without new DNA evidence, the high standard of a criminal conviction will be hard to reach. I am curious about this one...if there is enough reason to re-arrest these three after all these many months, certainly there is solid material against them.
Steve,
"Here we go again" is a huge understatement. If this turns out to be another 'straws in the wind' investigation I will commit myself personally to doing all I can to trash Aruba as a tourist site for any citizens from outside that country, as the entire legal system and perhaps entire government can be nothing less than corrupt and incompetent.
Lori, yes. From what I have heard from the MEDIA. Conversations have been monitored.
I read that Natalie's father was going to be doing another search in the ocean. Only this time it would be in deeper water that had not been searched before. I am perplexed by this because anything under the water for this long of a time span would be virtually destroyed due to the natural destruction of the water and it's microbes. Not to mention the fish........ Does anyone have thoughts on this?
Lori
Lori, I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps there is reason to suspect that they placed her body in a trunk or similar and weighed it down? Who knows.
Since we are now learning that the new evidence is tape recordings from phone tappings, I am more skeptical that this will lead to a firm criminal case. Recall the case against the Aisenbergs, the couple whose baby Sabrina went missing in the late 90's. The authorities, desparate to lay the blame on someone, used secret taped conversations between the Aisenbergs to force charges against them. Later, as the judge in the case heard the tapes, he discovered that the supposed guilty comments could not be found and that the transcripts from the recordings were not at all accurate. Not only were the Aisenbergs released, but they sued the city and police for several million dollars.
If the conversations in this case (the Holloway case) were recorded early this year, why are the authorities just now making these arrests? Without a body or DNA evidence, I feel this case will sink.
It is not Aruba's fault if there is no body and no real evidence. I hope that they have some evidence now.
I don't believe that these suspects are guilty. Could a couple of drunken teenagers in a bind improvise a successful disposal of a body on a little island on short notice without being detected? Could they keep their mouths shut despite years of intensive questioning and suspicion? Three guilty boys and none of them break?
I don't think the boys had to dispose of the body, that is what Paulus was good for. They kept their mouths shut out of fear. And it is Aruba's fault there is no evidence, if they had a trained police force that did proper investigations instead of asking for bribes and helping friends this case would have been solved within hours. Perhaps if the first officer that took the report that Natalee was missing, had ever looked for her or told even one other person she was missing it would have helped. But we won't know because of the multiple failures of Aruban authorities, intentional or not.
I was watching the Psychic Investigators show last night and they profiled the Holloway case. It was pretty interesting. I don't put much weight into those things, but what was interesting is that the lady psychic believed that Natalee was killed on the beach and then left there for a period of time while the boys left and later came back after retrieving someone who was going to take care of the situation. She said money exchanged hands and a deal was made.
It really did make sense. She dies at the beach during a sexual assault. They can't call LE for help b/c she was drugged and sexually assaulted. They panic, leave her, run home to Daddy, he figures out what to do and where to take her, pays off the brothers, and goes back to retrieve body before sunrise. The area on the beach that they were located was extremely dark. She could have easily been left there while they went for help and not been seen by anyone. The one thing that has always stoodout with regards to Joran's family is that his mother was out of town that weekend. I've always felt she was left out of the loop and the father cleaned up the mess not only for Joran, but for her, so that she would never have to face what their son did.
Hopefully one of the brothers will crack. You know it has to be eating away at them, particularly if all they did was help in the disposal. They've always seemed angry that they were involved with him.
If the suspects are guilty, Joran's mother surely knows all about it by now.
If Joran and/or the Kalpoes did it, and someone who didn't do it knows about it, the public would know the whole story by now. The guilty party would not be able to withstand probable blackmail and the police. The witness would have flipped on the killer.
They have turned the island upside down. If Natalee Holloway was murdered and disposed of, she was probably disposed of by someone with a boat. If the boat did not belong to the killer, the guilty party would have been exposed. If the suspects are guilty, Joran or his father were able to get a boat that night without anyone knowing or suspecting.
I tend to agree with Timothy...it's not necessarily Aruba's fault that no body has been found. Authorities in our own country have similar problems. A conviction can result without a body but some other "concrete" type evidence must be overwhelming.
I am not looking to "blame the victim," yet as a mother of four young adults, I know that kids can make bad decisions at any given moment. Who can say that Natalee did not willingly leave with one or all of these young men...or someone else? Perhaps she had been drinking heavily or participated in the use of some type of drug. These things happen on college campuses across the US everyday. If evidence happened to be found that showed DNA results, such as might be found after a sexual encounter, it could be difficult for authorities to prove that it was not a willing tryst.
The recent case of Meredith, the university student who was murdered, shows the challenge in proving guilt. Authorities held three individuals as suspects, including her American roommate. Later, they arrested another man whose DNA has been confirmed as being on her person...yet, from the beginning he has said their encounter was a mutual sexual one and he left her residence before her murder. Granted, he looks guilty but can the evidence (including his statements to police) "prove" it?
There was a very nasty story either from the BBC site or MSNBC that Natalee's body had been forced into a lobster pot and then thrown out to sea. It makes me feel ill to think about it. I can't bear Joran van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers - yet more "entitled" young men with enabling parents! how many more parents besides van der Sloot, the Alex Kelly family, the Grossbergs are going to allow their children to get away with murder?
Timothy- I agree that someone would typically flip if not involved. This case is of course, a mystery at this point. I have wondered, if Joran was dropped at the beach alone with her and she died while there, why would the brothers participate in a cover-up? The only two reasons that make them complicit is if she died as the result of an overdose and one of the brothers had been responsible for giving her the drug, or they were involved in an assault. Natalee was focused on Joran at the club, so it is not a stretch to think that this may have been a group effort where one of the brothers spiked her drink while she was dancing with Joran.
Obviously I'm guessing like everyone else, but I do not believe the mother knows what happened. Even if she was living with the truth right under her nose I believe she would still be in denial. Go back and watch the Greta interview with Paulus and his wife. He's lying through his teeth and she is clueless and indignant.
Fiz- I believe the Kalpoes are/were being raised by a single mother and their financial situation paled in comparison to the VanDerSloot's. So I'm not share if they were entitled in the same way as Joran.
if Joran was dropped at the beach alone with her and she died while there, why would the brothers participate in a cover-up?
I don't know enough about this case or about Aruba to know if this is a possibility...but I do get the sense that the van der Sloots are a much more powerful family than the Kalpoes. Say Joran and Natalie are dropped at the beach (or they're all on the beach, and Joran and Natalie wander off together), she dies, he gets the Kalpoe brothers back to help with the cover-up. He points out that they don't have an alibi, and tells them that if they don't help him, or if they talk to the police, he'll pin the crime on them - and his father has enough money and clout to ensure he'll be believed over two ordinary middle-class kids.
Here, anyway, social class makes a BIG difference in who is believed and how they're treated. I have no idea whether this is in fact what happened, but I don't think it would be impossible for Joran to use his family's position to threaten the others into helping with a cover-up.
In the few bits of transcript etc that I've read, the main sense I got from the Kalpoe brothers was one of resentment towards Joran - a 'This is all your bloody fault' vibe.
I agree Lili. They've always seemed like unwilling accomplices. Could be wrong, but I get that sense too. Not sure what was used as ammo or incentive, but I damn sure wish they would just open their freakin mouths and tell her family where she is.
If the Kalpoe family is poor, then they must have a hold over Joran, or else why are they still being yoked together? Like you, Emerson, I wish they would start to open up - maybe they already have?
I think they all had something to do with the sexual assault (rape). Joran said they had consensual sex, but if anyone remembers the video's that night she was falling all over herself, and everyone said how enebriated she was.
Sex under those circumstances is called rape folks. And I do think they killed her (probably accidentally) during the course of it.
I just sure as hell hope someone is talking.
If all alcoholic or drunken sex is automatically rape, then a rather large percentage of the population are products of rape.
Not ALL timothy. But plenty. You have 3 guys and an inebriated naive girl.
Testimonies have changed and you yourself said you didn't bother to watch this case. Natalee was falling down drunk and or (probably drugged), and in those instances it is in fact rape. A passed out person is not able to consent. Nor is someone who doesn't even know where they are.
You scare me.
I was speaking generally.
The three suspects have given various versions of the story, which is what usually happens when teenagers are repeatedly interrogated. Who knows if they had sex with her at all. If she was extremely drunk, maybe they left her on the beach as they said and she drowned. One often hears of drunk young people drowning like that. With what we know, there is no more evidence for murder than there is for accidental drowning. Tides could have carried her off. Anyway, you have no idea whether she was passed out or not. You say she was "probably" drugged, but there is no evidence for that either.
Timothy- Their stories didn't just differ slightly in details, they outright LIED at the beginning of the case and said they had dropped Natalee at her hotel. That lie led to two innocent black men being arrested. They then decided to "get their story straight" and "tell the truth", that they left Natalee on the beach because she wanted to hangout by herself in the dark, on a strange island, with no ride. They didn't want to be seen as un-gentlemanly you see. And no, she wouldn't be swept out to sea. That's just not how the ocean works.
I think it is possible that an object on a beach could be moved and lost by the tides. It depends on the tides in that particular location. There are sharks in the Caribbean. You never know.
The story the 3 boys finally arrived at is obviously not great, but some version of it could have happened. No one has been able to prove otherwise yet. I am not convinced that they murdered her.
I'm not convinced they murdered her either Tim, in the true sense of the word, but I am convinced that they played a part in her demise. Without a body we will not know exactly what happened unless one of them speaks. "Baby Grace", Riley Sawyer, is a good example of how the tides work. Unless weighted down, (even then we have seen bodies come to shore, ie: Laci Peterson), the human body will float and be kept against the shore. Being swept out to sea on its own is difficult at best.
At some beaches, rip tides can carry a person out and under.
I knew a girl whose mother was last seen about three years ago by a conductor on the Harlem Line. It was thought that she subsequently drowned herself in Long Island Sound. She was depressed and left a note. Her body was discovered weeks later, many miles away. It might never have been discovered.
I am not saying that something like this happened to NH. All I am saying is that one can't prove that it didn't happen given the known information.
Maybe Joran left Natalee on the beach and someone else did it.
Unless there is some evidence that Joran van der Sloot and/or the Kalpoes actually committed a crime, they shouldn't be in jail.
They lied at least SEVEN times about what happened to her that night.
Sure they did. And it could be that's all they did. Do you think that the Aruba police really have anything?
Well the Judge thinks so. We'll see.
So tim, do you think OJ is innocent too? lol
The whole thing is a nightmare, and I wish young adults/kids wouldn't go on these "drinking trips"...
My problem with Natalee's case is that almost all the individuals and groups of people seem to be hiding something. Or at least, it appears that way from media reports.
Joran and the Kalpoe brothers couldn't get stories straight--instead, they embellish, enhance, retract.
The group from Alabama on the school trip wouldn't answer questions with a straight answer, either the students or the adults traveling with the group.
Natalee's mom and her entourage wouldn't give straight answers to questions asked of them.
Joran et al were supposedly the last to see Natalee--why, then, do the Alabama kids hedge, hem, and haw without saying anything concrete? Why won't they say exactly who was where and when?
So. I've always thought that the house next door to Joran's should be examined carefully. The owners were out of town when Natalee went missing, and they had a pet monkey that seemed very agitated in the news clips from the early days of the search.
Or, for a body to so completely disappear, dumping Natalee in the ocean, on the side of Aruba where the currents are moving away from the island, seems entirely possible.
Or, lots of construction going on around the hotel area where the Alabama group stayed. Natalee returns to the hotel, has a problem with someone, ends up in construction garbage somewhere.
Or, she returns, then goes to another party at a condo owned by a fellow student's parents, overdoses, and comes up missing as part of a "corporate" cleanup. After all, [warning: sarcasm follows) the students were drinking responsibly, and certainly wouldn't be using (abusing) drugs which would put college scholarships, etc., at risk.
And, Beth and the others with her at the beginning have not been upfront about the sequence of events--who told her about Natalee, and when; she received a phone call early on that she has never explained (that I've seen, anyway); different versions about what students were up to, and when, at the hotel; different versions about what the "chaperones" were doing, or not doing--all which show me that finding Natalee was not a priority for everyone.
Let's hope the new evidence is compelling and true.
OJ gave us a body, evidence, eventually a confession. So he's guilty. There's no doubt.
In this case, there is no body, no evidence, no confession. Just some drunk, lying teenagers. And they are not the only parties whose credibility is questionable. So it's not at all the same. There is plenty of room for doubt. It cannot even be proven that Natalee Holloway is dead.
Of course she probably is, but if she isn't stranger things have happened.
The Aruban authorities have briefly held and then released various people in this case at various times. Always they had nothing. Why do you think that this time is different?
Bodies. Musn't forget poor Ron Goldman.
Kalpoe brothers released from custody.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/am...oway/
index.html
Hi people
i hereby want to inform U that there is a big news in Aruba regarding the disappearence of Natalie Holloway.
Two American Citizens r makeing great news here.
They R Dan Young and Kelly Castillo both from the company " Guided light"
They say and assure they have proof Beth Twitty made just a setup turning the run away case of her daughter into a kidnapping thing just because natelie was pregnant and was sexually abused by here steph father.
If this is true, CNN will again make headlines World wide
Greetings from Aruba Richard Dabian
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