It does seem bizarrely out of character for her. Usually people with that kind of kink show at least a subtle hint of it that you can look back and spot. I don't see that with her. Maybe she was just really good at putting forth *exactly* the public face she wanted people to see though?
...sometimes the most self-assured people are inwardly the most insecure. IN MY OPINION ONLY, I would hazzard a guess that this girl is a follower and a pleaser...she does whatever it takes to fit in. I also bet that with possible insecurities she also befriends males more than females and uses drugs and alcohol to be able to overstep her (obviously deeply burried) boundaries. I also feel that she was playinig SIMON in this. IMO, she followed suit and it led her to a jail cell. Of course, this could all be wrong...and of course, I mean no offence to any family or friends reading at Steve's. This is such a sad story all around.
You all should go read her blog. The story about Edgar and his little brother. It may change your impressions of this young woman.
I just don't know what to make of her, myself.
Steve
I don't know what to make of her either, but I don't get that twisted, kinky vibe from her, even after reading that short story. It seems more to me, that she's seen a twisted, enabling, co-dependent relationship close up. I don't know that it means she "is" co-dependent, but she's been very close to some very warped people.
Great job on finding that YouTube video. It's astonishing how pretty much everyone has footprints on the web and how those prints can be traced.
Watching Amanda's video and looking at her MySpace page makes it all seem surreal. She seems every bit normal as your typical woman out on the street and this makes her involvement quite bizarre. Still, she may very well be innocent - I have no doubt there will be a lot more news to come over the next few days.
RIP Meredith Kercher. I hope justice will be carried out.
Did anybody read the "Italy" blog entry on her myspace? Under the 5) paragraph, I believe she may be describing meeting Meredith for the first time; she's definitely talking about her future boss Patrick, whom she describes as the "most beautiful black man" she'd ever met... Just a interesting, rather chilling, little entry in light of what happened just a few short weeks later.
Under a picture of "Roomates!" someone (a relative?) posted this:
"September 4, 2007 7:32 PM
I think you girls should get a very big lock on you door, or better yet a large dog..... "
Steve!
Thanks for taking a 5-yard check down pass and turning it into a 77-yard touchdown run! And to have spotted the on-top-of-it Euro reporters so much online material, and STILL to have come up with that YouTube video. Which is why I sent the idea on to you to see if it fit. And good, tight, summary writing of it all "above the fold".
re the title: I was thinking of Mark Twain's "[American] Innocents Abroad" rewritten with the darker vision behind the plot/theme elements of Henry James's "Portrait of a Lady"--but James would still only have hinted at these kinds of things, if that. Amanda as a real version of James's "Daisy Miller" will be "buried" alive for several decades on Italian soil, though how she's acted is as a chip off of the "Daisy Buchanan" character in "The Great Gatsby". Except it appears she has a remnant of a conscience from her Jesuit schooling at Seattle prep.
http://www.seaprep.org/s/708/start.aspx
But the LEAKS! The Italians have semi-formally released parts of the "witness" statments [they have to call them that as no one to this time formally charged]. Note that Patrick Lumumba has not made a statement they choose to release.
http://tinyurl.com/2rr4n6
This link is to The Times excerpts. Note that the present top of page photo is of Raeffelle Sollecito & Amanda Knox likely on Friday late day standing by what may be a police car. Her appearance of vacant shock is evident.
From the statements as released, RS looks to have verifiable alibis for much, if not all, of 11/1-2 hours in question. Note how he specifically states his cotnact with his father, his other calls, his time surfing on his PC, etc. Especially re the last point, that's easily verifiable, because if it wasn't him on the PC, then who was it and that the Italian police can ascertain from other statements. Note also his statement on inconsistencies as based on "what Amanda told me."
Amanda's statement as released doesn't mention RS at all. Which, if RS's version is the most accurate, puts Amanda very far down the hole to direct accomplice, holding Meredith down while PL raped her [the ILE's current public theory that it took two people based on the evidence], rather than shivering with fright in the kitchen.
It could very well be that PL wouldn't take no from Meredith that night, that Amanda was so far drunk/drugged she thought it "fun", accessing her own "story plot", and that MK was not serious in saying no, and so was present for the rape and even helped. I suspect she was indeed in the kitchen when PL killed MK, the "what did I just do" realization starting to cut through the drugs/drink when she heard what she heard.
Why didn't PL kill Amanda? Almost a natural step, you'd think. PL hadn't planned to kill MK and so, the likely least wasted of the two, knew there was too much evidence that had to be disposed of, evidence that would, as it did, readily link him to Amanda and so to MK. The nex
Ah!! there's a character limit to Haloscan perhaps.
continuing from above:
Why didn't PL kill Amanda? Almost a natural step, you'd think. PL hadn't planned to kill MK and so, the likely least wasted of the two, knew there was too much evidence that had to be disposed of, evidence that would, as it did, readily link him to Amanda and so to MK. The next few hours are spent making things look like a burglary after PL gets Amanda to focus.
Unless there's a call or text message to him before 10 am the next day, RS comes into the story only after Amanda walks--which means his flat is relatively close by-to his place. At this point, the ILE must think that he went back to the apartment with Amanda before they made their "official" return, but so far he's sticking to the only-at-noon version, and, as I noted above, he's got a lot of verifiable time points in his favor, except perhaps for 9ish to 11:30. There is mention of a shoe print in blood that fits his but whether its inside MK's room was not specified.
Of course, this tale, without PL, wouldn't be happening. If group sex with MK had been just Amanda's idea when with RS, MK's brush-off would have been accepted. And then there would have been no pressure on Amanda to cover-up, as there would have been nothing to cover-up.
It was her complicity in the rape, which was the horror cutting through the drunk fog of her mind while in the kitchen, that immediately led her to agree to the coverup when PL told her MK was dead. Yeah, "Daisy Buchanan" to be sure in that moment.
This supposes, of course, that RS wasn't there for all of it, and that PL won't have something on the other two that is more convincing to the Italian magistrates.
But the ILE sure think that all 3 were in on the cover-up.
In light of what happened, this quote from her last blog entry jumped out at me: "life... [is] about who you are and what you choose to do and who you choose to spend your time with." It's a shame she didn't reflect more deeply on that point.
Most of these comments are way too sympathetic to the female suspect. Her ditzy writing reeks of narcissism.
would be more easily explained were it not for her gender, and her demonstrable intellect.
"Demonstrable intellect," huh. Well, probably compared to the average criminal, which is a pretty low standard. But it's not hard at all to get into UW, and she was only what, a sophomore? Majoring in liberal arts? And anyone who wants to pay (or borrow) the money can do one of those year abroad programs that are a lot more about partying than they are about learning.
She looks like a dim, shallow party bimbo with delusions of future grandeur who was trying to make her uninspired life interesting by indulging in excessive behavior and hanging out with sketchy characters who probably gave her drugs.
I'll bet she's mulling *right now* over how she can turn this into fame and profit. She'll cast herself as a misled victim, try to pin it all on the guys, and try to score a book deal and a TV movie off it. Then she'll try to use that notoriety to land a rich boyfriend and launch a screenwriting career.
Holly, I was stating something pretty obvious where her gender was concerned. Women are rarely involved in such crimes. But man, when they are, they are often the worst sort of crime imaginable.
Like I said, I don't know what to think yet, but I don't find myself feeling any sympathy for Amanda Knox. Call it a gut feeling. There are a lot of reports in the British & Italian press of her giving several people around her there in Perugia bad vibes.
And I thought I saw a strong streak of narcissism, too.
If she was actually kind of a mastermind here, you can guarantee she'll use every "feminine wile" in the book to gain sympathy from people. She's probably been doing that most of her life, if she truly is that kind of person.
"I can't remember if Raffaele was there that night," she said. "I remember waking up in his bed at his house and that I went back to my house where I found the door open."
She added: "I want to tell you what happened because it's left me really shocked and I am really scared of Patrick. I met him on the evening of 1 November [when Meredith died]."
Something about this just sounds like a liar talking. She "can't remember" if her boyfriend was there ... (convenient) ... she makes a point of explaining why she "want[s] to tell you what happened," like she's being so helpful and doing them an unexpected favor by answering questions in a murder investigation when she's a suspect, and making a big deal of how shocked and scared she is. Like she's just an observer rather than a participant. It's all about her and how she felt. And if she was so fearful, why didn't she rush to the police immediately?
I need to amend my post No 2 conclusion as "[Perugia] police Chief Arturo De Felice told Reuters by phone... Miss Kercher was a "victim and nothing more".
[Felice] told the Daily Mail that: 'All three participated in this crime. The motive was sexual and the victim rebelled.'"
http://tinyurl.com/yro37r
the quote is in an Aussie paper but I've seen it also in one of the "other" UK papers.
Not only for the cover-up, but for the rape & murder, Italian LE believes it has enough evidence to place all 3 of them in MK's room AT THE SAME TIME.
Given that questioning continues, which ever one of the three sets of stories becomes most congruent with the forensic facts (blood tests -- the cell phone location pings -- the cell phone calls themselves -- fignerprints --shoe prints, etc which have all been referenced in the reports), is the one who has the best chance of doing less time. I have no idea what Italian law covers for what even LE was calling "unpremediated murder" but which has "aggravating" circumstances [i.e. the rape] in US parlance.
Who chooses what avenue of defense will be interesting to see work out. RS in the reputed witness statemetn is already saying he lied to protect Amanda. Another report on Amanda says that LE reports "she keeps changing her story. Still no "leak" on what PL might have said though it is also reported his story is at odds with the other two.
After the lawyers get to them tomorrow, after formal charges are laid -- again, note the different LE process in Italy; no "Mirandarizing" going on & LE has up to 5 days after arrests to bring charges -- some one is going to offer a deal. Perhaps RS as his father is a lawyer from Bari. Amanda's mother is now in Perugia.
As are the Kerchers, who don't know yet when they can pick up Meredith's body.
As with so many of these cases, I feel so sad for what Meredith must have experienced in her final moments. And disgust at these people who somehow think taking a life to cover up their own evil is a logical act. Even if we were to accept Amanda's explanation of how things went, we have to wonder why she somehow thought the "bumps" and "screams" were scary, and she could "imagine what was happening," but not be disturbed enough to call police? It just doesn't jibe.
Robert M. - as always, you offer a well thought-out theory that pieces together what we know now. Not for nothing, but I thought I read RS's father is a urologist? The article you linked did say his sister is with the Italian police, however.
"And anyone who wants to pay (or borrow) the money can do one of those year abroad programs that are a lot more about partying than they are about learning."
For some perhaps. Most people return from that/those years abroad with language skills, life experience and widened horizons, and the bit of partying one also finds time for is how one makes friends for life of perfect strangers. So sad for Meredith's parents that they shan't ever have a chance to know the woman their daughter was becoming. RIP, Meredith.
[NOTE: for me, the HaloScan post # symbols appears in blue, BUT there is no number that follows it.]
re Steve's first comment way above:
"I just don't know what to make of her, myself."
That was my fascination when I first read through the UK reports, before tipping Steve. Followed immediately by the realization [& this next is a Thought Experiment, not any comment on MK] that AS THINGS THEN APPEARED we'd be having the same reactions if the dead person was AK and the perp was MK. The same tributes, the same consoling words, the same shock of loss, etc. And we'd likely find stuff to fixate on from MK if she'd created an online presence even half as visible as AK. Amanda's presentation is consistent, even right down to the you'd-expect-some-small-n-narcissim in the blog work of any 20-something, full of beans person with a penchant for writing. The whole on tour with the Austrian side of the family, that appears in the second mirror link, is easily expandable into a reflective their world/my world travel narrative -- topped off by the comic relief of the encounter with German bureaucracy! These are field notes for better, finished productions.
But Big-N Narcissim? No, I don't read that. Heck, on the main page, I "see/read" little of the usual stuff you'd get there.
This struck further home to me by the fellow UW student Andrew S., a climbing partner of AK's, who forthrightly said when asked "I've trusted my life to Amanda several times as her climbing partner." [Not exact but in MSNBC-Seattle story {which for a TV station write up is very detailed and well done} & picked up by many of the UK papers for mystery of personality it hints at.]
No, if Amanda was the one dead, we'd be talking about an intellectually talented (note her certainly acceptable self-praise in the blog about grasping reading German by the end of Harry Potter & her determination to do the same with Italian by way Potter also) person with great person skills (to be sure the "brassy" outgoing American in some accounts, but we are known for that over there, aren't we?, and another report said MK and AK had hit it off anyways) who at least had found her "happy place". Why, she'd even found a young, pre-professional Italian fellow with hair & glasses & even a scarf to match Daniel Radcliffe's as Harry Potter. And all within 2 months of hitting Perugia!
How could it have turned out the way it did?
MELLY -
You are correct. His father is an urologist and his sister is with the police.
What did she confess to exactly? They keep saying she confessed. Also, what are Patrick and boyfriend saying? I don't understand what happened.
So how could it have turned out otherwise?
Step by small step on that very night, nothing planned except let's meet at 8 pm from PL, with no psychopathic tendencies present in Amanda, and no Big-N narcissism necessary at all; all over the course of 3 hours on an mid-fall's night, likely fueled by nothing more than booze, of misunderstood intentions & invalid assumptions certainly by Amanda.
And then, yes, the pivot moment when Amanda as a person refused to "hear" Meredith as a person--literally. (Put my fingers in my ears.) And did not act.
Whether she was in the room at the moment, or truly in the kitchen covering her ears [& why had they all been in the kitchen {if true}?], it represents the point where Amanda LIED to herself ("I'm an all-american girl this is not happening I did not cause it I am not participating in it"), and -- by failing to act -- allowed Meredith's death. And the failure to act may have been as simple as boozed confusion over what might happen next, realizing only at the "Thud" what had JUST happened. But under Italian law, according to one LE statement, failure to act is still a murder charge.
That's the best presentation her defense lawyers are going to be able to muster. The next best will be to insist that PL told her to stay in the kitchen or else... ("I was in fear of Patrick" -- yeah, I know, when in doubt the American white girl blames the black guy. Still, as above, I think PL's presence is the necessary ingredient for MK's death to occur.) They will argue this threat is what lead to the cover-up.
I'm pretty sure that Patrick is saying it was all the White Girl's Idea and that she was the one holding the knife, which just slipped when MK moved the wrong way during the rape. (Which is why Amanda's head really hurts when the LE asked her about that.)
In other words, people can get themselves into situations that they never conceived of before, and 99.999% of time would never happen in just that way, just because of transient, situational events. How they react or fail to react is what makes it all too human. No special case positing of long-term psychopathology or high-grade narcissism is needed.
It isn't a satisfying conclusion that I reach on Amanda's behavior, but unless something else gets revealed, an evil act, which can be the omission to act, as her Jesuit teachers at Seattle Prep must have pointed out to all their students, is an all-too-human thing. You don't actually have to act as Cain did to be responsible for another's death.
Or there wouldn't be the point of a True Crime Blog like this one.
what do you think that the dynamic was?
I think that they started something all together and than things got out of hand...there was no sign of rape on the British girl...
Steve,
Thanks for making the fan-fiction point. People write that stuff for the same reason they read it -- for the frisson of acting/not acting, of experiencing a touch of the Other, of telling stories because narrative is our natural way of thinking. Good writers like, yes, Stephen King now & Charles Dickens then, really get you into the Other & that means not just the good guy but usually more to the point the bad guys. And SK & CD are/were NOT the world's biggest mass murderers because of what they can/could conceive!
Really, this one IS Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment" come to a webpage and YouTube clip near you. If Amanda is as I've argued above--and, no, I don't think its "sympathetic" to say she's just human as can be RS and PL too--she'll have one great book in her to write. And her Italian will be pitch perfect by her release. (Note: those are what I believe to be true possibilities but the tone is "sardonic" as in that ain't the way it was supposed to work.)
Certainly, having a three-some may have started with Amanda but even if not, she clearly did not say no to it
I wonder if when she was quoted as saying "I met Patrick on November 1", what she meant was that she met UP with him that morning? And when it's quoted as her saying "I want to tell you what happened..." we don't know what that was in response to....did the police confront her and ask her if she wanted to tell them what happened?
I don't know what happened....I am just saddened by this whole thing.
Gotta check my rewrites better! Strike last line in just previous comment.
Giuseppe, check the links to today's updates. The Medical Examiner clarified his comments, due to the arrests, that there were no SIGNS of FORCIBLE rape (tears, evulsions, etc.). That didn't mean that there wasn't rape. The presence of the knife strongly suggest that MK was under threat of her life and so allowed the intercourse. She did NOT agree to it. She allowed it to protect herself. That's rape in all Western countries I know of. Even a verbal threat alone would make it rape. And certainly being held down, as the ILE says they have evidence of, clearly makes it rape.
That Amanda may have participated in this rape -- may even have instigated it -- is the so far unspoken undertone to the story (the frssion, the thing that makes us shiver about it beyond the actual murder). It likely happens more than male minds think it does but it happens far far far less frequently than what males do daily.
And by a young, vicacious woman who gaily reports online about her Austrian family's doings, and shopping in Berlin with her sister, and finding a special place in Perugia, and loving Harry Potter, and ...
It took the confluence of all four on that particular night for MK to die. But she was raped first. She is the only true victim here.
The first one of course. Her family & friends next, and then AK & RS & PL's families & friends after that. They are all victims too. With them are where my true long-lsting sympathies lay.
Must-stop-commenting-now!
Amanda brought home the two guys: she had something in mind, group sex was on her mind. She said that they proposed the idea to M. who refused. But then she said that M. and P. went in M's room and then she heard screaming but did nothing.
If forensics said that at least two people forced M. to have sex it means that A. lies. Likely M. was a victim of the orgy organized by A. but it's difficult to believe that they planned to rape and kill M. or even just rape her. Nobody of them were criminals and A. and M. lived together, which means that M. knew A. well and would have reported to the police.
In my opinion M. initially accepted to participate and A. & co. just thought of group sex. Then to spice it up things got violent, a sharp object used initially to play was finally used to arm. Maybe involuntarily during the sexual act. M. dies everyone got scared they try to agree something and then we know....
In the news they keep referring to it as "violent sexual orgy". What does that mean, that the knife was part of it? Also, I saw a photo of the crime scene that shows bloody finger prints on the wall, unless those prints belong to the victim they have proof of another person being there and involved and that fact cannot be argued.
Also, I have never heard so many "I think" and "don't remember" in a statement in a long time.
They can't remember anything. The fact that she referred to Patrick as "The African" is weird too.
knifes might be used in sexual acts without the intent of arming but with the purpose of exciting participants.
She calls him the African because it strengthens the stereotype of the violent black immigrant...it's part of her game to blame P. for what happened keeping herself and R. away from responsibilities... off course it's childish to think that blaming 'the black guy' might work in this case; after all she's not in southern US.
my thoughts on Amanda - she seems from all accounts rather narcissitic, and very dark under the surface - not a good combination. i guess combined with the fact she was overseas, removed from her usual surroundings and checks and balances (friends, family, etc) the normal rules would not apply and thats how this tragic situation eventuated. changing stories and then playing the victim usually isnt a good sign. female or not, her (apparent) personality type would fit this type of crime and her subsequent behaviour, i think.
the dailymail.co.uk site has good info on the case.
....i cant remember where i read this, and its driving me nuts, but i read an article yesterday quoting a someone in Amanda's university class saying that she was loud, overconfident, and didnt really make and effort to befriend girls but rather went straight to the boys and latched onto them. in another article she is quoted as saying something along the lines of 'i have very few social inhibitions and do not get embarrased easily'. in normal circumstances this could (and probably would) all mean nothing but in this case, it may indicate narcissism and a lack of boundaries/consequences.
of course i am probably totally wrong but interesting information on her character none the less.
i'll try and find the articles online somewhere.
A. wrote on Facebook: “I don’t get embarrassed and therefore have very few social inhibitions.” (Times on line)
She was educated in a catholic school, hence she might well have developed a pleasure of transgression as reaction to her sex-phobic education.
Her short story about rape suggests that she had a taste for sex and violence. But she was not a criminal, never showed violent behaviour, let's say that she just wanted some unconventional slightly violent group sex. M.said ok at the beginning then the accident: M. get fatally injured.
The most recent information indicates that Meredith was an innocent victim. Giuseppe, where are you getting the idea that she consented? It seems like that was the initial belief but it was debunked with further investigation. It sounds to me like Meredith came home from watching a movie with friends and walked into a trap.
Honestly it's sad what happened. Extremely sad for M. and family but also for the others. These people might have just had bad luck. Maybe they could have had fun without tragedy. A. would have carried on her life of promiscuous sex adventures during her staying in Italy, like many American girls of her age do when abroad (and not).
It's a police strategy to charge them all initially with murder rather then accidental manslaughter. This will scare them more and possibly induce the actors to say finally the truth with full confessions.
I mean if M. consented and an accident happened would be impossible to charge with murder
I am kind of surprised no one here has entertained the possibility of a false confession. In Italy, the authorities can detain you without charge for 48 hours and interrogate you the whole time. Someone brought up Dostoyevsky-- well Crime and Punishment is all about how easily people confess to crimes that they are innocent of, given the right amount of pressure.
I tend to think she was involved-- but I have to say that the Italian police are acting very strangely by leaking out so much verbatim testimony. My wife is Italian, and she tells me she has never heard of Italian police releasing basically transcripts of the interrogation to the press.
Other questions: Did she have a lawyer present?
Did she get help from the American Consulate? (Not that our corrupt gov't would really lift a finger to help someone in a jam in another country--look at the Americans stuck in Lebanon, while Israel bombed that country intensively with American bombs no less. But I digress--Italy is supposed to give a detained foreigner access to their embassy by international law).
The short story she wrote in November titled "The Model" has begun to ring a faint warning bell. Is she the daughter in that story? Am I reading right, the daughter was the photographer, manipulating the mother to fly to her boyfriend's house in terror? Is it a case of "Still surface, deep waters" with her?
She has got a lawyer already and she's receiving the support of a psychologist. The Italian system is much more respectful of prisoners' rights than the American. We have three stages of trial before declaring a subject definitely guilty; we don't have any death penalty and Italy doesn't use torture or detainment without charges as Americans do in Guantanamo...a judge will have to confirm the detention tomorrow, I think.
"We have three stages of trial before declaring a subject definitely guilty;"
And "we have a preliminary hearing, a trial by jury, and appeals for YEARS.
"we don't have any death penalty"
Pity, especially in the case of a violent rape and murder, such as this.
"and Italy doesn't use torture or detainment without charges as Americans do in Guantanamo"
LOL, your "opinion" of torture used on a military base with enemy combatants compares to the rape/murder of a woman, in what way?
Giuseppe:
I am fully aware of the limitations of the American system, and you are right to point out how badly the US has treated the rights of foreign prisoners recently. That said, just because the American system has its unjust characteristics does not mean we shouldn't criticize the faults of other systems.
The continental tradition of being able to detain someone without bring charges-- this tradition goes back in France for centuries, for example-- is very problematic. If you can detain someone for that long, presumably you can set up incentives and decentives for them to confess to certain things. "Oh, your cell is too cold? Well, why don't you talk to us for a few hours where it is warm?" I doubt that occurred in this case, but it is a possibility.
And I am perfectly aware of the similarities to what went on in Guantanamo-- the reputation of the US will take a long time to recover from that, if it ever does.
SOOBS -
it compares because
1) its ALWAYS been illegal to use torture under both the U S Constitution and our Armed Forces various ML regulations as upheld by the Supreme Court, just as RAPE is illegal under same;
2) its STILL illegal to use torture under the Geneva Conventions, in any of our states or territories or other protectorates, to which we as a so-called civilized nation have long subscribed to, as is RAPE in war-time, which thereunder is considered a war crime;
and
3) its ILLEGAL all over again based on the John McCain sponsored War Crimes Commission Act of 2005, which still covers RAPE as above.
Torture is illegal EVEN in war-time, and as we as a country are NOT in a declared war, as no such resolution has ever passed The Congress as constitutionally required, it is most definitely illegal. Period.
Which is why the White House wanted the War Crimes 2005 Act to pass: it wanted Retroactive Immunity and thats a specific provision of the bill.
Though again, constitutionally, The Congress has no right to pass an ex-post-facto bill.
I agree that torture is illegal, and SHOULD be. I don't, however, agree with Guiseppe's contention that Italy has a better system, because they don't torture (as if American police ROUTINELY torture suspects.) I'm offended by the presumption, however I am also aware that the rest of the world likes to depict the U.S. as barbarians. Not enough to not want our HELP, when they need it, but, whatever.
as said a judge will have to validate the detention tomorrow, I believe; the judge will review the evidence and reasons of detention. They have already been charged, the three of them, with rape and murder. She has got a lawyer. I can't really see the problem. It seems to me that you US citizens are often concerned with human rights abroad, like if you had a better standard. Actually in comparison with Europe it might well be the other way round. We don't have anything like death penalty, remember people can be found eventually innocent if new evidence appears after a guilt sentence. Just to make an example but there are other things to point to...
Giuseppe. Please try to have a little more respect for Meredith Kercher. Anybody with a right-thinking mind realises that more than mere bad luck was involved that night.
I don't believe the boyfried was involved in the rape/murder.
SOOBS, yes, I understand, as though Guiseppe referred to Guantanamo, it seemed he was stretching the point to include all American LE.
And with our adoption of the Miranda rule, we went a long way to "outlawing" back-room work-overs. And, as you'll note, there's no such thing as a Miranda warning in Italy. Failure to answer any questions, when your lawyer is not present, can itself lead to charges of obstruction of justice. Asking for Consulate consultation is the only way an American can obtain a Miranda equivalent, but while you are waiting... Note again the Portuguese process that No lawyers present until you are an arguido, and being one means ...
Madrid's question about a FALSE CONFESSION is, therefore, quite a valid one. But from the ILE perspective in this case, why try to induce a particular confession, as opposed to taking "witness statements", when you have a lot of physical evidence already. Such as the phone cell & text records which have tripped up Amanda from the beginning. Those are just the same kind of information that US LE would generate and use in the same interview context.
Still, if over 5 days suspects can be held and so kept separate, based on specific physical evidence, so as to 1) prevent flight, and 2) continue interviews, that's not so much different than what a US prosecutor would seek to do re setting high bail.
I may be wrong but I think that there was no rape/murder and that was simply accidental manslaughter.
I don't think the people involved capable of planning a rape and/or a murder. I have the maximum respect for M. but I just think that it was an accident but I may be wrong off course...
RE The Italian Police Investigation & After
Madrid writes: My wife is Italian, and she tells me she has never heard of Italian police releasing basically transcripts of the interrogation to the press.
I think there are several reasons for this is definitely odd. Yet does a service as well as great fodder for the papers and us.
(1) Perugia as a Student Center.
The summer tourist season is over and the longer student season is ON. Given the efforts that all in perugia have done to develop and maintain schooling as a core buisness, getting this murder of A STUDENT solved pronto was of the highest order. You'll note that several of the UK papers in their still-pic portfolios had shots of the CSI people working the outside of the house (& a charming little one it is, & per Amanda's comments What A View!). An early report stated that over 100 officers were at work on the case. Having no solution allows FEAR to linger & if unsolved would negatively affect things next year.
(2) The ILE Reads the Papers.
re Maddie McCann & the Portugal LE and the slow response by less than well-trained officers & CSI to that crime scene.
(3) The ILE's Sense of Pride.
an understandable sense of getting #2 done right so we can say "case closed" as Felice put it, so to reassure {sp?} #1. And to PR ILE skills to other Euro Union member forces.
(4) The ILE's Normal Leaks.
which are going to happen but #3, #2, & #1, especially the latter, made it a more important PR case then say the arrest of the "Don-In-Waiting."
Do you know the Italian Minister of Justice, Clemente Mastella, is under investigation for corruption? or that the public minister leading the investigation is being widely attacked and discredited by the press and all political parties. She's also received numerous death threats, one of which was for her parents who were both killed 1 month later in a car accident? or that the whole riling class is rotten to the core? faith in the Italian judicial system is quite simply absurd...let's talk about facts Beppe...or don't you get off on that?
You, that have for president Mr Bush, a former alcoholic who devoted himself to lie and sacrificing the lives of young Americans and of millions on Iraqis to steal their oil, you talk of Italian ruling class as rotten?!
I live in Perugia and like alot of people here, I knew Patrick. He is was a very popular well liked person. Everyone here is shocked that he could have been involved...but it seems that he was. I guess people who know the other suspects are feeling the same way. I personally don't care who stabbed her three times. Anyone there that night, who tampered with the crime scene, smashing the window to confuse the police and then Giuseppe..locked Meredith in her room as she lay dying (which took 2 to 4 hours!!!!) is equally responsible for a horrendous crime...
I completely agree with you about Bush though...
Damian, things were fine or at least OK, up until that last line beginning "or". You know as well as I do that getting accused of corruption is SOP in Italian politics, and that's so because its often true. In this kind of High Profile, International case, the pressure to get it correct by the ILE will be greater than the pressure to get it done & have it finito. They know the UK press will be all over this daily. And two of the defendants will have some resources to hand -- which as you'd expect leaves Lumumba on the outside looking for a deal against the other two but subject to all the fine physical evidence ILE has & will have further of. Which defense will also have access to.
Damian,
I take it that's the word on the street for how long it took M to die? Do you have a specific paper source for that?
Because cutting across the neck or into the neck usually means you bleed to death fairly quickly, depending on how deep it is. But its never hours. Meredith would have had to have been unconscious from a blow to the head to have died from blood loss on a less severe wound.
And just what IS the mood of Perugia this late evening?
I'm not up with some of the lingo but I think you've reassured me Robert! There seems to be enough fine physical evidence to get it right...sorry for my ignorance, but what is the ILE!?
How do you know about Italian corruption in politics? thanks to the presence of an independent judiciary system which despite the hostility of politicians still works. In many other country such system is not independent or is not allowed to investigate politicians' crimes without the consent of the government.
Apparently it took some time newspapers reported. I think that she might have lost consciousness and the others possibly panicked thinking that she already died and didn't call paramedics fearing the legal consequences.
According to this Guardian article, the lawyers are angry that all of those confessions were leaked to the press. (My wife will be happy to know that unlike the US, Italy has not gone totally bonkers). However, this guy, Arturo de Felice sounds like the worst type of keystone cop in smalltown USA. He says the following: "The three are now in jail with a chance to reflect on the inconsistencies in their accounts." As if guilt could be the only reason why their stories are inconsistent. Sure throw em in the slammer and let God sort em out. Also note that they were NOT allowed to see lawyers yesterday, and it was yesterday, when they confessed. Again, I am not saying Italy's system is worse that the US system. In my experience, all small town police forces are equally incompetent.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/
...2207114,00.html
Ms Knox crumbled under questioning," the Perugia police chief, Arturo De Felice, said yesterday. Ms Kercher had been found dead, stabbed in the neck, on Friday November 2 at her student accommodation, and Ms Knox had originally claimed she was out the previous night. "The three are now in jail with a chance to reflect on the inconsistencies in their accounts." A judge is expected to visit them today at the Perugia jail where they are being held in isolation. A prison psychologist has visited the three, who were not allowed to see lawyers or family yesterday. One neighbour of Mr Lumumba heard him shouting "I haven't done anything" as he went into custody, the newspaper Corriere dell'Umbria reported.
Luciano Ghirga, who was appointed Ms Knox's lawyer on Wednesday, said her mother, Edda Mellas, had arrived from Seattle. "She is convinced her daughter is innocent," he said.
Mr Sollecito's lawyer, Tiziano Tedeschi, said his client had stayed at his home in Perugia on Thursday night. "We believe he was online that night. We are sure of Raffaele's innocence." Both lawyers said they were "outraged" that Ms Knox's statement was leaked to the Italian paper Corriere della Sera. Mr Tedeschi said Mr Sollecito had been "lynched by the media".
Damien
ILE + Italian Law Enforcement
...i think we are getting off track Beppe. Why do you say Meredith agreed to have group sex? Why can't you believe they @planned to rape her? I knew Patrick to say hello to, have chatted with him in the past, I know lots of his friends. He seemed like a nice man. But I can't be as sure as you. I'm sure that if you used that fine imagination of yours you'll be able to come up with the real story...and for what its worth, i've lived in your bel paese for 10 years
When officers arrived to investigate they found the mobile dumped in the pensioner's garden not far from where Meredith lived.
http://tinyurl.com/3cx96r
This also states that a bloody tissue was found.
Will be interesting to see if there is anyone else's DNA on the phone and/or tissue and Who's!
Apparently Meredith had gone home alone after a Halloween party.
thanks frangi. I spoke to a journalist this morning here in Perugia. She told me the Police believe Amanda held Meredith down as she was raped by the two men. One of the men then stabbed her three times. For what its worth, Sollecito has a large collection of knives and a penchant for il mostro di foligno. Beppe, there are reasons why im asking you to tone it down a bit.
Damian
the lingo is not really lingo so much as its my not wanting to type out the Italian Police (IP) or Italian Law Enforcement (ILE) or the carabineri {sp?}. I usually abbreviate "persons of interests"'s names as AK or MK. I see Guiseppe has gone to just one initial.
Well, that load of evidence is still subject to 1) being done accurately, and 2) interpretation! And we've "heard" only what ILE has selectively leaked (again, nothing from PL, which I find interesting along the lines Madrid is emphaszing). So, we shall see just how good it is. But there will be a lot of it, cf the Daily Telegraph pics of the CSI people at work.
Madrid
Ah, yes, de Felice. A good peg, but for me that goes back to Reason No. 1 above, Perugia as a College Town. But still, its that small-town, why even Southern, style, isn't it.
Interesting. Amanda has no one story (we hear), Raefelle has a lot of checkable alibi times, and Patrick says he didn't do it, wasn't there. So, no one killed Meredith??
Or just Amanda? (I mentioned the White Girl blames Black Guy syndrome way above.) Starting to get thick, it is indeed.
I have to leave where I am.
translate please il mostro
Damian:
Do you mean il Mostro di Firenze?
They have found a knife that is a possible match for the murder weapon at 'Patrick's' home and are also stating that phone records do not match up...Raefaelle??
A. is 20 years old student socially uninhibited, keen on doing experiences, enthusiastic of being in Italy where she just arrived. She has got a taste for transgression and possibly fantasize of violent sex as the story on the blog that she authored shows. But without any criminal record; solid family background.
R. comes from a well off middle class family, close to complete his studies, seems to be close to his family members, at least reading his blog. No criminal record.
P. is a popular musician in perugia, makes a living by managing a bar. Married with a child, in Italy since 88 is obviously well integrated. No criminal record.
Why should this people plan a murder and put at risk their lives? They do not have violent personalities nor are desperate, they have all to loose. did they plan rape only that got out of hand? M. was living with A. and knowing perfectly A. and possibly the others; she would have reported to the police the day after destroying their lives. If we exclude murder and rape we are left with accidental maslaughter.
http://tinyurl.com/3ye4q9
Here's the link
It doesn't look good for Amanda if the news reports are correct that she said she covered her ears.
http://tinyurl.com/34xhmb
When people are afraid because someone is screaming, they typically react by (A) running away for help, or (B) running to the aid of the screamer. Fear evokes a response.
You don't usually ignore a fearful/terrifying scream from someone, and hope it goes away when you or they could be in danger...unless of course you know the reason behind the screams -- and no you are not in danger.
If Amanda wasn't in the room participating in the killing then her behavior certainly hints that she knew what was going on behind those closed doors, doesn't it?
The 'monster' is from Foligno...he killed two boys.
I agree EFL,
That response in my mind would be if you knew exactly what was going on and did not want to listen to it...
the police are convinced she was in the room participating, that she was holding her down while she was raped by the two men...two men. Sollecto's footprint is inside Meredith's room. The 'monster' was from foligno, 20 minutes from perugia...he killed two boys
Beppe...lets not exclude lots of cocaine...
I understand that, I was commenting on her excuses more than anything.
I don't believe her story for a minute.
Just speculating aloud. . .
Suppose the 3 hatch a plan to drug and rape MK. They don't fear she will go to the police because she's a foriegn student, they will say it was consensual, she will be confused about what actually happened. AK agrees to help the two men out.
Something goes wrong during the attack, MK resists, one of the men panics or loses it and stabs her.
AK doesn't get help because (1) she's part of the conspiracy, and (2) she is in the other room and doesn't know that MK is being killed.
However, after AK learns that MK has been killed, she feels compelled to cover up the crime because she was part of the original conspiracy. The 3 do their best to make it look like a robbery, but the coverup isn't good enough and there is too much evidence behind. MK is confronted with the evidence and confesses, in whole or in part. At that point, the three try to foist blame on the others and claim they had nothing to do with it.
Cocaine can make you bold but also irrational? M. is a student abroad could be threatened to hope in her silence but is also a 22 independent British who came in Italy to study. You could never be sure that she'd keep silent. Police so far did not find any trace of drugs...
Charging them with murder and rape put the three accused under a much more though position they could have a life sentence which is a good incentive to speak and say the whole truth. It can be a police strategy to charge them with rape/murder rather than manslaughter. At least in a situation in which the evidence is ambiguous about the dynamics of the events
There were observations made of Amanda Knox by other women (which I can't find now) that were very telling, observations that there just wasn't something right about her.
Amanda Knox should write a short story from the perspective of a young woman alone in a foreign country who is raped and murdered by her "nice" roomate and her 2 "nice" male friends while sleeping. A young woman who had a suitcase full of Perugina chocolate to take home to her mother. A young woman who was stabbed in the neck by a penknife for no good reason other than saying no.
Guiseppe, don't assume that all United States citizens are ugly, barbaric brutes. There is a lot of room here for many types of people, of many Faiths/Creeds, and personalities. I am unsure if you realize how very, very big the country is in the first place.
I know there are European tourists that come to the USA, thinking they can easily go from Florida to the Grand Canyon with less than two weeks of vacation time. They think it is an easy drive, and not *that* far. My parents live in the same state I do, and it is a six hour drive to get to their house, non-stop on the highway. Not stuck in traffic for the most part.
From the link posted by frangi at 8:52pm:
It was Meredith's lost mobile that led police to her body after they got a complaint from an elderly woman that she had received a threatening call from the phone.
When officers arrived to investigate they found the mobile dumped in the pensioner's garden not far from where Meredith lived.
After tracing her address they arrived at the house she shared with other students just as her housemates had discovered the trail of blood to her door.
***So, officers were approaching the murder house before they were called by the suspects.
I still think the Italian boyfriend was not involved in the crime. He was being duped by Amanda, who was hoping to use him as her alibi.
There is every chance she could be telling the truth when she claims she cannot remember very much about that night. I wonder what the chances are that she may very well have been drugged? Could her drink have been spiked? Isn't Lumumba Diya a bar owner? Where did the party take place?
If she had been drugged, her statement will become much more credible. I do not for a second believe she participated in Meredith's murder or sex/rape.
According to some reports, the ILE have potentially traced the murder weapon to RS.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle439523.ece
According to other reports, the police bugged Knox's cell phone and she was overheard telling RS: "I cannot do it any more, I cannot bear it."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher108.xml
If these reports are true, then the boyfriend would seem to be involved in the crime.
Yes, I'm sure she'll claim she was drugged against her will, whether she was or not. Certain people are cutting this arrogant, attention-seeking woman way too much slack because she's young, cute, female and sexy.
The whole scenario probably fed her fantasy of being some type of Henry Miller-style adventuress with a dark side. She may have even figured the experience would help her in her writing career.
"I want to tell you what happened because it's left me really shocked and I am really scared of Patrick." Not because she wants to assist a murder investigation of her friend -- because *she's* "shocked." And hoping to exonerate herself.
It seems like lying perps often go on about how shocked they are. Whereas innocent folks know a murder is always shocking -- they don't feel the need to emphasize their surprise.
Robert M....DUDE! I have missed you (sorry that was OTT a little bit)! I am perplexed and enlightened by your blogments on this story as well as Steve~O`s wake up call to NEVER put yourself in the shoes of a psychopath or murderess (my first comment here reflected what I HOPE would be the reason for this woman's involvement vs what the data is leading to).
That being said, after reading every post and update by Steve and reading all blogments (everyone has done a SUPER JOB!), I am going to change my mind on what I believe may have happened in this case.
It has been SCREAMING OUT TO ME that it is POSSIBLE (imho ONLY) that this woman is lying through her freaking teeth (as are all of the guilty parties). They all seem to spill half-truths like the fluff flying off of a dandylion in 40 mile an hour winds.
Someone had posted earlier (blogment) that this female perp had attended a jesuit prep high school yet she lists her religion as, "athiest" on her myspace.. So what else "isn't right" with this woman? After you milk a cow the cream floats to the top and you skim in off to get to the real milk (take it from a farmer girl). Let's just say that the milk in this case will be (again imho)far from the statements given so far (ie, worse in depth and scope).
Also.....did anyone also notice the TIME FRAME for which this woman was allegedly moved to Italy, obtained a boyfriend, started classes (a once in a life time thing that should not be spent working until 0230 am in a bar, etc), and also found time to visit other relatives in EUROPE???? I am reading it as TWO FREAKING MONTHS. That is bizarre. And the edgar story...while it had some great word combos and was captivating at random times, I rather found it to be (as they call it at Waffle House): topped, covered, smothered and chunked.
Well Holly it is wise to be opened-minded. You cannot possibly dismiss the fact that she may not be responsible for the murder.
Why do you claim she is arrogant or attention-seeking?
I do not for a second believe she participated in Meredith's murder or sex/rape.
This is from you, right, Random Guy? Yet you're accusing me of closed-mindedness.
I suspect you're either a fan (you think she's cute and have a crush) or you know her and are trying to help her out.
As for the arrogance, narcissism and attention-seeking, it's in that abysmal writing and the photos on her blog. The arrogance is also in the confession -- it's all about *her,* not her murdered friend.
I think other reasons for some of the commenters' prejudices in her favor are that she's middle-class and was going to college. I get the feeling that a lot of people on this blog are 20-40 years older than she is, and working-class. Maybe they think going to an unselective college and spending a year abroad is something really special, more like it was 30 years ago (when far fewer people did such things).
By the way, I'm not trying to put down the *victim* for doing a year abroad -- I'm just trying to point out that it shouldn't favorably influence anyone's views of the alleged perp.
I feel a lot more compassion for Harmony Creech's mother than I do for this woman.
Actually, I shouldn't say her writing is "abysmal." Just typical college stuff, trying to be shocking, but nothing special.
It's the self-absorbed prattle on the blog, coupled with the fake-sounding responses to the police, that make me unsympathetic to her.
comment made by the boyfriend:
"He said: "I have known Amanda for two weeks. From the night that I met her she started sleeping at my house."
food for thought. To me (imho), the boyfriend's testimony seemed the most genuine so far. The above statement (if true) also begs the question of how could this young woman come to study overseas, meet a NEW BOYFRIEND (and start shacking up), and work until all hours of the morning at a bar while she is supposedly immersing herself in classes and languages. There are only a few words spoken at bars and they won't get you far in language aquisition (most of the phrases being of the phillanderous type).
Once again....a big HMMMMMMM.....
Hi nurse, good to see (read) you...lol
Random guy: I believe that she participated, but that aside if she didn't then WTF!!
She didn't help her flatmate but 'blocked her ears' and made random trips back and forth to her boyfriends house while Meredith lay dead or dying!!!
A. is not going to answer any questions today of the judge in charge of deciding for her detention. This was said by her lawyers and reported by the Italian Newspaper 'La Repubblica'
Yes Beppe, it seems none of the defendents will respond. The police believe they have the murder weapon, one of the knives from Sollecito's collection. Not looking good for your theory...the four of them wanted a bit of fun and Meredith got unlucky. Go easy Beppe
Why? A weapon was necessary anyway...
My feeling is that might be difficult to establish personal responsibilities unless they will collaborate.
I think you mean "cooperate" Guiseppe. *wink* *smile*
I agree with you on that...but this is very different from your 'just a bit of fun' theory last night. There are reports here of a fourth person being involved. Apparently, they've found a bloody footprint in the house which doesnt correspond to one of the suspects
Beppe, do you still think the knife slipped???
Italian Newspapers today talk about a community in Perugia made of foreign students, some local students and some immigrants, which seems to have quite a bit of fun: drugs, promiscuous sex...Amanda seemed to have various sexual partners...
More than one sexual partner isn't uncommon for males and females in more than one country though, Guiseppe. Not just the USA, but Canada, Australia, the U.K. etc.
It's a possibility. I find extremely difficult to think that these three took the risk destroying their lives raping and murdering. I see them more as individualistic and hedonistic personalities keen on going beyond the usual but with their own lives of integrated people to preserve.
Good morning to you all from the US eastern time zone.
nurseb, happy to know you are home
The TIMES today is now reporting the possibility of a FOURTH person (not Meredith) as being involved because of
1) another footprint in M's room that they can't match up, and
2) a fingerprint in blood that doesn't match any of the 3 suspects.
Again, ILE is putting stuff out for its own PR spin & to demonstrate their technical competence. Still, they better hope they are incorrect about #2 because [US] defense lawyers would jump all over that. As in,the Real Killer?
Also, according to the TIMES, M's friend Sophie Purton, with whom she watched a video on Night of 11/1, has stated M told her about the men A would bring back to the flat, including at least one "stranger".
http://tinyurl.com/2qtq5y
So there are 5 people int he flat at around 1 am, if its true RS was there also. No one now doubts that AK & PL were there as well as M.
So who's #5?
And why haven't there been any leaks about what PL has been saying/not saying to the ILE? I can't imagine the UK papers wouldn't translate any such "confession", as they are still sidebarring & updating AK's & RS's statements. Something about that makes me real curious. If the ILE is leaking the rest, why not leak PL's too, especially as A has named him as the killer.
Yet if there was a 5th person, who's to say he wasn't in the room with PL also? What RS says next will be interesting, but it seems as the prelim judge is in today & lawyers are at hand, nothing more will be forthcoming until... when?
I am just suggesting that this promiscuity, which I don't judge on moral grounds, was, jointly with drugs and the party mood, conducive to think about orgies. M. was taking drugs too, this has been declared by his Italian boyfriend who said that he was not jealous of her. What does it mean? Were they promiscuous too?
Promiscuity is the least of the "moral evils" that was done that night though Guiseppe, don't you agree? You are thinking that you reason as they do, when more than likely you don't. The more I think about those short stories Amanda wrote, the more I wonder about her. Is she a Puppet Master, making people think of her what she wants them to see? Is she co-dependent, or does she watch for co-dependent tendencies so that she might control them? As I said earlier, I am starting to see that she might be what a folk saying around here calls "still waters". The saying is: "Still waters run deep.", implying that there are deep currents (could be anger, or other harmful behaviors, it means they are troubled deep down where outside observers cannot see it) that one must be wary of, and danger of being pulled under the placid surface by an undertow, or being capsized in an unexpected ripple.
Other thoughts:
commenters at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, which is a well-written paper from my previous reads there
http://tinyurl.com/35uzyw
follow-ups to short article announcing AK's Facebook profile is gone and her MySpace is closed. Both anti-s & friends writings in.
WOW! ILE got a cell-tap that quick, eh? Only the US Federal NSA can do it faster! I wonder how many OTHER friends & family cells they've tapped over this?
I will be making a post later about "sympathy" in response to Holly & NurseB. I think our differences are on one level a matter of emphasis, not really of substance. I don't think I'm splitting hairs but, no, its not all just "they are evil". See my two long posts above about being all-too-human.
Evil acts, or ommissions to act, do make evil people, as conversely evil people can do good acts, though their ascribale motives may simply be the calculus of self-preservation/social covering.
That is generally a well-written paper, Robert, but those blog entries seem kind of clueless, and the comments are downright idiotic. Some racist, others just pointless all the way around.
I'd imagine Amanda gave someone her passwords to take those profiles down. I knew this would happen in this case, that's why I made the mirrors.
There
’s a lot of speculating going on without much references to the facts.
The police claim to have enough evidence to know what happened. The police are convinced that MK was morally innocence and that she was the innocent victim of a sexual attack. There is no history what so ever to suggest that MK has been involved in orgies or sexual acts that could be intrepretated as “out of the ordinaryâ€.
Facts:
1) Police say that they find no evidence of sexual intercourse on MK. But they find evidence of male bodily fluids on MK
’s body and evidence to suggest MK was subjected to violence attacked before being knifed in the neck. They say they have evidence that MK had struggled to fight off an attack.
2) The police say to have evidence that all three suspects were in MK
’s bedroom shortly before or after MK’s death. MK’s bedroom was found locked. The window in the bedroom was broken.
3) MK
’s two mobile phones were disposed of. They were found with her fingerprints on it, and that of another person.
Fact 1) would suggest that MK did not, or only partially, give her consent to a sexual act.
Fact 2) would suggest that all 3 suspects were involved in some way.
Fact 3) would suggest that there is incriminating evidence to be found in the mobile phones of MK.
Bravo Groenhoven. You do well to concentrate on what the police have given us. I live in Perugia and the local press have done a fine job of trying to portray Meredith as a young lady of loose morals who was playing with fire and got burnt. (rather like our friend Giuseppe) As you correctly pointed out, the facts all point in the other direction. At the press conference given by the local police the other day, the police chief lost his rag with these 'journalists'. He shouted at them "lei e una vittima e basta" Sorry to disappoint you Giuseppe, but your 'knife slipping' theory is both wrong and offensive
Giuseppe Giuseppe...with reference to your wonderfully insightful post on sex drugs and rock and roll in Perugia. You seem to be obsessed with superficial tittle tattle. With every word you write you become less and less credible. your theory goes agaisnt everything coming out of the Questura. Will you be disappointed when you discover you are completely wrong? Will you feel bad at least?
offensive? you're the one who's judgmental...people who do orgies have my all respect. Police was vague, they didn't explain clearly the events. She didn't have signs of violence on her body apart from the cuts but they claim that she was hold down. How can they? And if she was, in a kind of consensual violent orgy that wouldn't be unusual anyway...
I just feel bad about the fat that someone died that's it. I am not one of these freaks that enjoy arguing with others on someone's disgraces, how they happed and why....do you?
you believe Meredith consented in a violent orgie and got unlucky as the knife slipped and stabbed her three times. This directly contradicts everything the police have said. You have no basis for saying this other than your erudite logic and your rather morbid fixation with your invented little theory. Maybe, just maybe, the people with access to the evidence and suspects are better placed to judge
The police coroner says that bruises were found on her body (rumours are her arms) to suggest that she struggled whilst being attacked. Furthermore, police forensic experts can tell whether a victim had struggled, and/or whether the victim
’s body had been moved after the moment of death.
There is also a suggestion of the drug XTC might be involved with some of the suspects. Certain XTC can fuel sex lust.
Much to the distress of family and friends of MK, the English press have been nosing around MK
’s fellow students in the UK & Italy to find out about her sex life. The consensus is that MK has never indulged in orgies and was certainly not the type of person to do so. Though I have heard rumours about her sexuality...
The reason for the police being vague is to protect their case and MK's family.
But it seems they are very confident to have already cracked the case. I don
’t know the Italian judicial system, but I would expect to see formal charging very soon.
The police coroner says that bruises were found on her body (rumours are her arms) to suggest that she struggled whilst being attacked. Furthermore, police forensic experts can tell whether a victim had struggled, and/or whether the victim
’s body had been moved after the moment of death.
There is also a suggestion of the drug XTC being involved with some of the suspects. XTC can fuel sex lust.
Much to the distress of family and friends of MK, the English press have been nosing around MK
’s fellow students in the UK & Italy to find out about her sex life. The consensus is that MK has never indulged in orgies and was certainly not the type of person to do so. Though I have heard rumours about her sexuality….
The reason for the police being vague is to protect their case and her family.
But it seems they are very confident to have already cracked the case. I don
’t know the Italian judicial system, but I would expect to see formal charging very soon.
Guiseppe, violent orgies are rarely consensual, nor within the boundaries of what is considered normal society behavior. Also, mind your manners here, for we do indeed debate "what makes the criminal mind tick the way it does" often, this includes the owner of this blog, whom it seems to me you imply is a "freak". If you don't like doing that, why are you here?
debate is different from acrimony and arguing...anyway I know why I am not popular here; I dared to criticize the empire
Guiseppe, you know you spoke in a way that would injure other people's dignity, yet you did so anyway. You also know you can do better, and I believe you choose to do so sometimes. I say again, don't think to put all Americans into one niche, one catagory, because there are plenty that won't fit into the stereotype you think when you hear of this country.
Giuseppe!!!!!!!! Which empire is that? What happened to your wonderful logic!?? Beppe has left the building...
I'll add one more thing Guiseppe, you have one "mouth" and two "ears". Don't you ever think to "listen" a little more before "speaking"? I think you have a good mind, and I think that in time you'd find there are like minds here, if you'd give yourself a chance to see that. Don't catagorize, read more, and think more. Honest advice, I think you'd maybe find like minds to debate with if you did so.
Oh-- please, people. You have an Italian here who is in Italy right now and can tell us what is happening there in this case. And instead of trying to get as much information as possible about this case from him, you choose to focus on his (sometimes valid) criticisms of this country.
New for naive Americans: most of the world's citizens cannot stand the US and its people right now. That might not be fair to you in particular, but it is still a fact. Figure out a way to deal with it.
Madrid, you missed the fact that damian is in that very town. *wink* And, I do "deal with it" as you phrase it. Doesn't mean I have to swallow it when someone is trying to ram it down my throat, assuming I must fit into the pigeonhole they believe I do.
And to prove what I say, I quote damian directly:
"Bravo Groenhoven. You do well to concentrate on what the police have given us. I live in Perugia and the local press have done a fine job of trying to portray Meredith as a young lady of loose morals who was playing with fire and got burnt. (rather like our friend Giuseppe) As you correctly pointed out, the facts all point in the other direction. At the press conference given by the local police the other day, the police chief lost his rag with these 'journalists'. He shouted at them "lei e una vittima e basta" Sorry to disappoint you Giuseppe, but your 'knife slipping' theory is both wrong and offensive
damian | 11.08.07 - 10:28 am | #"
It's great that Damian is posting on this-- it would also be good to have multiple perspectives on the case.
Here is how I deal with criticisms of the US by Italians, btw:
Giuseppe:
Your government (led by Berlusconi)committed Italy to the coalition of the willing as did the leaders of the UK, Spain, and Portugal. You were and are an illegal invader of Iraq just as the US is. Prodi has not taken your troops out yet, because he is too scared of Bush to do so, unlike Zapatero in Spain, who gave the US the middle finger as soon as he got into power.
What I mean to say is that Italians have nothing to be proud of-- also, it is now clear that your government helped the CIA with the illegal renditions of Muslim Italians in the Milan area. Again-- Italy has nothing to be proud of.
Spain and its people, on the other hand, have cojones of steel.
Since reading Steve's post and the comments, I feel overwhelmingly sad for the many lives that will be affected by the atrocious act perpetrated by PL, AK, and RS (and an unknown assailant?). A wife and son, families and friends who loved these people, futures destroyed because of what they chose to do on that single night.
But my heart breaks for MK's family. MK knew these people, and probably didn't think twice about being with them that night--she knew them and trusted them, knew AK's apparent penchant for "if it's sex, anyone and anything goes", but allowed the roommates to do their own thing, even if it wasn't her thing.
The 'how' of this absolutely eludes me, how a night of drink, drugs, and sex somehow becomes murderous intent. And if it is true that MK lived for some time after the attack, if she might have been saved or her agony ameliorated if help were offered her, then those responsible should pay a very high price indeed.
Madrid, I agree, which is why I hope to coax a more thoughtful dialog out of some. *wink*
just for your info the Italian troops did not participate to the invasion but joined the occupation under the pressure of US administration; Italian troops left Iraq under the Prodi government.
Anyway you started all of this, questioning the Italian legal system and its provision of adequate rights to detainees.
I have never offended anybody but I was actually offended by Damian who called me 'morbid'.
Mine was a legitimate hypothesis in a situation of poor availability of details on the conditions of the body of M.
Groenhoven adds details of which I was not aware of and that strengthen the hypothesis of lack of consent of M. to initiate the sexual act.
Lawyers of R. pointed today to the fact that police is presenting contradictory evidence.
The case is far to be solved in its details and strategically police have the advantage to press the heaviest charges to scare the three and to induce them to collaborate.
According to the Daily Mail -Diya Patrick Lumumba is yet to interviewed. This is answer to why there has being no leaks of Patrick interview.
Sorry, Steve, the discussion there went down hill.
I do think interested readers should bookmark the Seattle PI for ongoing follow-ups. Its first wrap-up article Tuesay AM actually linked/ listed to the various UK papers covering this in detail. Their own reporters are really working A's Seattle background.
Also, Seattle-Perugia are "official" sister cities. Because of which, A's mother is being put up at no charge for time being, as official spokesman said "as a matter of humanity".
Yes, Nana, your second paragraph is the heart-breaker. Meredith walked back to that house with no expectation that her basic trust in others would be violated. And it was. "A lack of humanity."
The Daily Mail has an unsigned update re today's proceedings mixed with a presentation of Unanswered Questions, one of which speak directly to my repeated query re no leak on PL what has said. It seems ILE has either not interviewed him or is deliberately keeping a total lid on what he's said!! Also, other "witnesses" are now being sought. [Thanks, Missy.]
Madrid, please note the first Query posed, as what's being implied in the rest of the article is, hey! just how slam dunk, "case closed", is this? Is the Real Killer still at loose?
Anybody want to tackle an answer to the last question? which is indeed a two-sided locked door mystery.
http://tinyurl.com/246td3
Some of the unanswered questions:
1.) Why did police take such liberties in announcing so quickly that Meredith had been the innocent victim of a 'sexual attack' seemingly involving those in custody?
2.) Why have police not yet interviewed Lumumba even though Knox has essentially accused him of murder and their own theories implicate him in a 'violent sexual attack'?
3.) Was Knox in the house while Meredith was being murdered, and if so what did she do afterwards?
4.) If Knox was 'terrified' of Lumumba, as she claimed, why did she bring him back to her house?
5.) Was Sollecito in the house while Meredith was being murdered or not?
6.) Sollecito has said he had only known Knox for two weeks. How far was he willing to go to protect her?
7.) Knox has admitted that she and Lumumba at least were 'drunk'. Are the conflicting stories and confusion the result of a night blurred by alcohol, or something more?
8.) Where were Meredith's two other housemates that night?
9.) Meredith's door was locked from the inside, yet blood was found in the bathroom, suggesting the killer had left the room at one point from inside the house and attempted to clean his or her self off. Who locked the door and how did they leave the room after?
And to Damian, as a resident of Perugia, did you know Meredith or know of her through mutual friends?
How closely involved with the University for Foreigners are you?
Why do you think the local journalists are trying to play up M's own sexual history? Just for paper sales, or are there persistent rumors, perhaps from friends of the accused? And aren't these the same journalists that the Perugia LE is leaking to? Do you trust everything being leaked by the LE, given how incomplete it is?
And aren't the students in town almost back in to the regular party atmosphere?
P. Lumumba declared today in front of the judge that he has never been there in M. and A.'s house. He said that was at work in his bar and witnesses can confirm this. Hi lawyers point to the fact that A. was defined a lier by the police itself.
Wow-- that's really stunning. Giuseppe, do you think he really has an allibi-- have they interviewed anyone who can attest to the fact that he was at the bar?
Personally, I always thought the case against this Patrick dude would be the hardest to make. People that are above 35 that have kids and own their own business are very unlikely to do this kind of random violent crime against someone they barely know.
I've never visited this blog before. I was looking for information about this terrible killing and came across it by chance last night and am pleased I did. I've learnt alot and I appreciate it. I'm English and have lived in Perugia for seven years. Robert doesn't believe it, but everyone seems to have their theory. Giuseppe's is that it was nothing more than four friends having a bit of violent orgy fun and a knife slipping a few times. I'm not interested in the least whether Giuseppe 'dared to citicize the empire'. I don't even know which empire he's talking about. I don't care if he thinks he knows why he is unpopular or if America or Italy is better. The police say Meredith was gang-raped, stabbed three times and then locked in her room and left to die. (by the way, Robert, you were right to correct me last night about the time it took her to die. my source was a local rag, thanx) They also say they have the proof. This is not a game Giuseppe. Since what you say is blissfully detatched from the known facts it is all your doing and will never change. It doesn't matter.
It looks like you don't even read my posts Damian. I suggest you to find someone else to reverse your frustrations on. I had enough. I won't talk to you any more on this board.
Madrid, La Repubblica and Il Corriere della Sera, the 2 main Italian newspapers report on their web sites that P. and is lawyers can produce witnesses and other evidence of his presence at work.
If it's true the fact that police didn't bother of checking before throwing him in jail could say a lot a bout the quality of police's work on this, perhaps rushed case.
Amanda today chose to avoid to answer the judge's questions.
R. said today that he was at home on Internet. Police is looking at his pc. He also said that spoke with his father on the phone at about 11.
Sorry Giuseppe. Some of what you say is right and I had missed your recent comments in which you finally start to change your mind.
The thing which has shocked Perugia almost as much as the killing itself, is the supposed invovement of Patrick. He is very well known and liked by all.
I believe the current climate of xenophobia in Italy needs to be taken into account. A couple of weeks ago an italian woman was brutally murdered in Rome. The murderer was a 'rom' which best translates as gypsy. A controversial law was immediately passed in which the Italian government could deport any foreigner deemed to be a risk to society. The right are calling for up to 20 000 romanians to be deported. The slums on the outskirts of Rome, where the romanian community live, were destroyed. There were also reprisal attacks agaisnt romanians, stabbings and beatings. This was a week before Meredith was killed.
also...half of what I've read in the newspapers here has turned out to be wrong. (On the morning of the three arrests for example, every newspaper had the name and photogragh of a Tunisian who lived nearby and had disappeared immediately after the killing)
...Sollecito also has an alibi...!
I'm very interested in this case, but also very disappointed in some of the commentary.
First, I would like to say to those who say they have not offended anyone....I was very offended. I read all the comments and, even trying to take in to consideration a language barrier (though all seem to be quite well spoken and have an impressive grasp of the English language).
The statement that A was having sexually promiscuous adventures like many "American" girls. I had no idea that promiscuity was solely the trait of the American female. I also wasn't aware that, apparently, the southern US is the only territory in which some have attempted to place blame on minorities for brutal crimes. As if people in this country are the only ones that have ever unjustly accuse someone of something because they are "different".
To be sure, nothing that happens in America gets past the international community but I had always thought, until now, that that community was more forward thinking that to assume that all Americans were evil. I agree with Kat on this one. It's unfortunate when generalizations are applied to an entire nation of people. Whether one agrees or does not(and the "nots" include, um about 80% percent of AMERICANS, by the way) with the current international policies, it is a well known fact that the American PEOPLE themselves, blowhardy as we may be, are some of the most generous people around. Which will be as evident (and as taken for granted) as it always is the next time there is some disaster and we are the first nation there giving out blankets and food and medicine.
Anyone who reads this blog on any kind of consistent basis is well aware that, no matter where the story, American or anywhere else, LE and judicial procedures are always the first thing scrutinized. ILE is being looked at under the same microscope as we look at our own.
Though I sure wish I'd known how promiscuous I should have been along the way. If I'd known it was expected of me, my travel diaries would be a heck of a lot more interesting to read. Do they stamp that info on passports nowadays?
Sorry, Steve. First time I've felt compelled to post and I hate that it went off subject. I really respect what you do here.
That there is a perception of American girls being typically promiscuous anywhere in Europe makes me laugh because it seems to indicate that peoples' prejudices are pretty much the same everywhere. Because there's certainly an American perception that women from various parts of Europe are "easy." I don't think so myself, but I've sure heard that kind of opinion expressed in the past.
To me, the two biases cancel each other out.
I'd like people to take a longer view here and not focus on one person or another's nationality. People are interested in this case overall because it involves such a diverse group of alleged victims and suspects.
Pennies -- many folks across the pond are really loathe to admit that prejudices based on skin color even exist there at all. But they do. We southerners do deserve our stereotypes as the classic bigots of the world, I'm afraid, but I know you can go just about anywhere and find people who hate another group of people for some ridiculous reason like skin color.
I remember when I first experienced this culture shock. A female friend of mine had a redheaded, green-eyed American mom and a dark-skinned father from Guyana. She turned out to have this amazingly amorphous appearance. She and I were both southern kids growing up in one of the less enlightened suburbs of Nashville, TN.
My friend moved to the UK for a while after high school. I'll never forget the first time I saw her after she'd lived across the pond for 2 years and she told me how her first real experience with bigotry was with Britons in a pub where she worked in Surrey. They called her "n-word", the "colored girl," referred to her as black, you name it. To her face.
I repeat: This girl grew up in SOUTH NASHVILLE, and she'd not had any experience with in-your-face racism until she lived in England. There, no one even bothered to wonder where she was really from, didn't have a clue she was actually a melange of caucasian, South American native (Amazonian Indian, maybe), and Asian, to name a few. She was just 'black'.
My point is that story and others proved to me quite some time ago that Americans don't need to feel so terribly bad about ourselves, no matter what the rest of the world says. Everyone's national hands are dirty in some way.
And the rest of the world has been saying this stuff since long before Dubya got in office and gave the International community a good excuse to slam evil "ugly Americans."
If Amanda Knox was some kind of murderous harpie from hell (she ain't been convicted yet, y'all) it had very little to do with her nationality. Any argument to the contrary is so lame it doesn't merit a response.
And Europe cornered the market on Evil Women Folk ages ago, anyway. Lucrezia Borgia, anyone?
Thanks for your response. As I said, I've been reading your blog for almost as long as it's been around but this was my first comment and not sure why I was so compelled to write something this time. I think it's because, I'm just so sick to death of everyone singing the same tune over and over again. I expect it over on CNN or one of those places but to have it devolve to a political discussion here just seemed too much.
I agree with everything you are saying. Yes, southerners probably earned their reputation at some point and things are nowhere near perfect but I like to believe humanity (and even southerners!) are making great strides in that regard.
But, we take a step back every time it turns to "well, your leader is a moron". Yeah, ok, and, how does that relate to a senseless murder of young, bright college student, exactly?
In any case, I've traveled some and I find one thing to always be true everywhere. And that is that I have encountered rude people in Boston and rude people in France. But I have also encountered wonderful people in Boston and wonderful people in France.
I've downed pints in the UK with Scottish soccer "hooligans", clinked shot glasses of cringe inducing tequila with a very old, dignified Mexican man in Puerto Vallarta and, a few weeks ago, had Heinekins with a lovely Italian couple we met in St. Maarten. They were bogged down with bags of groceries trying to get to their room high atop a hill and my husband and I offered them a ride. They, in turn, met us by the ocean and bought us a drink and, the four of us together - language barrier and all - spoke of our children, our vacation, or jobs, and our homes. We connected as humans, not as those "of the empire" and those who are not.
Gosh it sounds like I drink a lot doesn't it? That's the first step towards being promiscuous! LOL
But I truly love what you say about us not feeling so bad about ourselves. I know in my gut that good and evil are everywhere. And I think that, deep down, most people do.
I don't know what to make of Amanda Knox, bu reading through her blogs she seems like a regular, if a bit 'up herself', student.
For some reason, it may be in my head, she didn;t hit it off with meredith. If she is referring to meredith when she talks of 'the skinny girl', she doesnt go on to say anything complimetary about her. We also see the photo of her posing with only two of her roommates and M isn't in the picture. In other parts of her blog she refers to Laura, whom she admires for her lack of inhibitions sexually. She never mentions M once, except to speak, unflatteringly of the skinny girl. Maybe a little jealous of her?
I wonder if perhaps her and PL got a little bit drugged up, things between them got a little out of hand. AK possibly left the room realising things were going too far and PL carried on. She heard the screams and left the house to go to RS house. She tells RS all and he agrees to provide her with an alibi, so there is no danger of her being implicated (which woud tie in with his statement a bit). PL threatens that if she tells the police, he will tell them of her involvement in the crime, so and RS agree to cover up for PLs murder. They clear the scene. RS takes the knife home, feeling that as he genuinely wasn't involved and has genuine, verifiable alibis, then his house is not likely to be searched. The knife is stored at hs place.
AK is now worried that if she tells the truth, her part in the crime, while never intentional, makes her complicit in the murder.
I expect that MK never wanted any of this. AK and PL went into her room, tried it on and what started off with MK laughingly pushing them off, ended up in PL getting violent and AK going along thin king it was a game.
Maybe I'm being too easy on her. Like I say, i dont know what to make of her, but she certainly seems cocky and not the type of girl to think of the consequences until too late.
Joanne, pls re-read the skinny girl stuff. Amanda was referring to one of the two Italian girls (Molly and Laura?) occupying the apartment and that 'these girls are awesome. really sweet, really down to earth, funny as hell. neither are students, they actually both work int he same law office'
Let's slow down and get some perspective here.
it is admirable and utterly human to feel outrage at senseless murder....
it is regrettable and utterly human to express this outrage focusing on insignificant detail....
all because we as humans cannot fully accept the abject horror of our brutality to each other
we look away - seeking to find mental balance in analyzing the unimportant things
mr soprano a fine fictional example
Yep, re-read it, she's referring to Laura.
So, she doesn't actually mention meredith at all, her fourth roomate. From her blog and pics you would assume she only shared a house with Laura and Molly.
I think the African thing is being taken out of context here. Could she have said that because um, he is AFRICAN? As in from Congo? I dont think its the same thing as saying the black guy did it.
Joanne, I doubt the mirror is complete, last entry Oct 15th - the penultimate one Sept 15.
Please reflect before you react as your judgment will stand a better chance of being unimpaired.
The details and opinions are pointless in this time of grieving.
I wish all peace of mind and a safe good night.
From the daily mail website today:
"Detectives believe Amanda Knox, 20, helped bar owner Patrick Diya Lumumba, 37, subject the English girl to a terrifying ordeal.
Knox pushed so hard on the 21-year-old's face that she left an imprint of her fingers on the skin. "...
"The judge was told: "She has shown an unscrupulous tendency to lie constantly to investigators. Police believe the attack last Thursday night may have followed a session of drug taking"
Rob, it is, I read it on the actual myspace page yesterday. She hadn't updated it for a month. I hear what you are saying, we should all hold judgement, but what's the point of being here disscussing it? Shall we all sit round discussing holding judgement? It's speculation, looking at the possibilities.
Then it would seem she's done for.
"Detectives believe Amanda Knox, 20, helped bar owner Patrick Diya Lumumba, 37, subject the English girl to a terrifying ordeal.
Knox pushed so hard on the 21-year-olds face that she left an imprint of her fingers on the skin."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
evil POS.
"2.) Why have police not yet interviewed Lumumba even though Knox has essentially accused him of murder and their own theories implicate him in a 'violent sexual attack'?"
Presumably they have been interviewing him. A more interesting question is why his interview was not leaked as early as the others. One would assume an interpreter has been involved for AK who has been in the country only briefly. PL may not need one after so many years in Italy. Could be the interpreter is a source? Or could be that PL's story was not exciting enough to leak? This would certainly be the case if his story was that he was not even there, as seems now to have been supported by his alibi.
"4.) If Knox was 'terrified' of Lumumba, as she claimed, why did she bring him back to her house?"
She claims to be terrified of him now because he killed her room-mate. This does not preclude her trusting him before the events of this night.
"8.) Where were Meredith's two other housemates that night?"
Are you suggesting they were out by design? If this was the weekend and they are Italian maybe they were in their home-towns enjoying the company of their families and availing themselves of Mum's laundry-service? Their absence is not necessarily sinister, even if it opened the door to this tragedy.
"The student's lawyer Luciano Ghirga, said last night: "This is a very dramatic and tragic case.
"We have applied for our client to be released on the grounds that she has nothing to do with this."
Asked what Knox was doing, Mr Ghirga replied: "What do you think a 20-year-old girl is doing while in prison?""
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
Learning very raw and basic Italian. she should be well fluent on her release in, say, 25 years time.
Perhaps the mysterious fifth person will prove to be the Moroccan who disappeared shortly after the murder was discovered.
Knox, shortly after the murder, was seen with "a North African" in a laudrette washing clothes and a pair of training shoes. Perhaps this was the Moroccan? (Would Lumumba be described as "a North African"? "African" would be more likely as he is a black African rather than a Moor).
It would be interesting to know if either Lumumba or Sollecito are left handed because The T*mes appears to be repeating speculation from the Italian media, possibly based on the post mortem examination, that the victim's neck was gripped by a right hand while the knife wounds were inflicted by the left hand.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2811736.ece
> Asked what Knox was doing, Mr Ghirga replied: "What do you think a
> 20-year-old girl is doing while in prison?""
Given the amount of time it took her to organise a group of fück-buddies in Perugia, I'd say she was probably working her way through the other inmates ...
Just read the Daily Mail article. The police seem to think they boyfriend wasn't there, but helped cover up.
It also seems that MK and AK weren't great friends, with Meredith telling her friend sophie that one of her roommates was very strange.
My instincts are finely tuned this evening 
Joanne, i would be very embarrassed to have called someone 'up herself' while going on to demonstrate that i don't even have accurate comprehension or recall of what i had read.
i certainly would be embarrassed after this to go on and fantasize about a violent murder.
i understand this blog to be about the human, social and investigatory aspects of crime. in my opinion it's not judgment but understanding that is on offer and to be offered.
you acknowledged misrepresenting the facts yet showed no contrition and didn't miss a beat getting back to presenting your assumptions.
murder is harrowing but how we deal with it as a society - both formally and informally - is intriguing and informative at the same time.
didn't they say on dragnet "just the facts"?
Get a life Rob.
After reading the article that Robert M. linked in one of his recent comments, and looking at the photos of the accused, none of the three--AK, PL, RS--look big and bulky enough to kill MK alone, and with a pen knife, at that. Aren't they smallish knives?
However, if MK was surprised while in her own bed (asleep or not), my supposition above would probably not hold true.
AK is being revealed as an immoral brat of a girl, who didn't respect anyone, even herself.
MK's photo shows a beautiful young woman, unlike AK's pic which shows nothing but her disdainful self.
from daily mail:
"Meredith told me that Amanda brought men back to their house - I don't know how many."
'She told me in particular about a man who lives in an internet cafe. It's the place where Amanda met him. Meredith thought this man was very strange."
c'mon Joanne! you really are not adding anything with your false claims about what you have read.
your instincts may be finely tuned this evening but your rational mind appears to have deserted you.....
> Asked what Knox was doing, Mr Ghirga replied: "What do you think a
> 20-year-old girl is doing while in prison?""
Given the amount of time it took her to organise a group of fück-buddies in Perugia, I'd say she was probably working her way through the other inmates ...
todger | 11.08.07 - 6:04 pm | #
cute little young sl*t
Are you gong to stalk me all night rob? Or start just posting away on your own, without having to look at me for something to moan about?
the only hope is that they will get scared and confess because the police in my opinion do not have enough proofs to sentence them for rape and murder
im surprised you feel stalked - just get your facts right, i don't think that request is out of line considering the misrepresentations you have been making. not everybody has been able to read the articles referred to so won't know their true content.
i don't think your desire to insult me is justified. try not to hate so much....there is enough already out there
Au contraire rob, i absolutely adore you right now, you are the most interesting person i have ever met.
Here're some extracts from witness interviews, together with some more details of the developing character portrait of Amanda Knox that is building up:
http://www.corriere.it/english/
a..._meredhit.shtml
I'm impressed by the fact that AK, 20 years old, a cute chick, chose as fuck buddy PK who's not good looking and older...but maybe she's a bit pervy....what do you think?
Ok, Meredith was not raped.
Ok, Meredith was not raped.
Melissa | 11.08.07 - 6:43 pm | #
why?!
I dont know why, but the autopsy did not show signs of rape.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?i...tory?
id=3831234
> I'm impressed by the fact that AK, 20 years old, a cute chick,
> chose as fuck buddy PK who's not good looking and older...
> but maybe she's a bit pervy....what do you think?
She's undoubtedly "pervy" -- her desire appears to be the driving force that put everything in motion in the few weeks she had been in Perugia. She appears to have fucked and stoned relentlessly: as well as effectively moving in with Sollecito the day she met (and fucked) him, according to Sophie Purton's account, and her own admission, she appears to have had frequent casual sexual liasions with a succession of other men. She had men coming round with hash and weed, and had plants growing in the garden. It seems that things got a bit out of hand, culminating with the death of one of Knox's housemates in a sex and drug fuelled night of misadventure. Now it seems to be unravelling like a James M. Cain page turner.
I wonder who'll play the Knox role in the inevitable film?
The dead girl might not have been raped, but at least one man came on her.
Got a link to that Todger?
Do you think that she'll have a go with the jailers?
Who cares who she has a go with, so long as the truth about that night finally sees the light of day. If she's addicted to sex, the bedknobs (if there are any) in her cell probably aren't safe.
truth?
i wonder if we'll ever know it....this case is too messy
Not only that, but the questioning without representation for that long is fishy. Amanda was obviously a partier, but I take everything I hear from UK newspapers and European media in general with a grain of salt. Especially since the McCann case.
For example, how on earth could they know WHOS handprint was on Meridith's face?
Melissa, I understood it as she had pressed so hard fingerprint indentations were left.
Melissa, the measured the length of the brusies and spaces in-between the finger marks which would indicate the proportions of the "actor's" hands. No doubt, there is a formula to take into account how bruises spread with time, and they could figure out how old the bruises were. That's how they'd know it was AK's handmark(s?) and not one of the men.
Heya Kat. *smile* Great minds, eh?
I dont think they can tell at this point whos handprint it was.
If the hand sizes between each guy, and AK were vastly different, they surely could Melissa.
they could if they were able to lift fingerprints
> Got a link to that Todger?
I've been looking back over newspaper articles, trying to find it, thus far without success.
As I recall, there was a quote from the pathologist referring to "dna" from a male on the dead girls body. I understood this phrase to mean a semenal deposit.
Although I haven't found the article, I'm fairly sure it was a UK newspaper, and I think it was either the T*mes or the Torygraph
todger, i read that as well yesterday and came away with the same impression you did.
WHOA ! and I mean rob, joanne, and !
Thought damien and guiseppe were about to go at it a bit much. But you three!!!!!!! rob I appreciated your first post but think you are being a little too sensitive re joane's several remarks, in one of which she corrects herself. Let's focus on subject & not get personal.
And sourcing helps that. For instance, Melissa, from where did you get the conclusion that Meredith wasn't raped? I've not read that the ME has actually changed his findings, but then I've not read either the specific finger marks report that Nana alludes to. Where did that that come from?
If a knife is held to your throat and so in threat of your life, you allow sexual interocurse, that's rape. see my longer take on that well above. (Drat this Haloscan thing has no numbers after the # sign.)
DNA doesnt always mean semen lol. Someone obviously killed her, but it could have been anything that left DNA.
And as for the handprints, did the rags say that they lifted prints? Or measured Amanda's hand for that matter? I read the same rag as you did with that information and I didnt see any mention of it myself. Did I miss it?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?i...tory?
id=3831234
ABC News. Generally a good source.
Robert, as a woman I can tell you that even if you have a knife to your throat and someone tries to have sex with you, rape will be evident. When you arent ready, tearing will happen.
Not to be vulgar, but if that werent so, how could a woman use tampons? When sex is happening and you want it, other things happen.
Do you think the police will give every excruciating detail of their evidence gathering process to the press to satisfy public curiousity Melissa?! This isn't CSI, this is real life.
Bullshit KatK, this is the European press out of control again.
found it..
http://thesun.co.uk/sol/
homepage...ticle435085.ece
There was bodily fluid on Meredith’s corpse from a male attacker.
Police said a post mortem examination revealed that although the Leeds University student was sexually attacked, she had managed to avoid being raped.
But later pathologist Luca Lalli said: “I cannot rule out that sex took place under the threat of violence.”
do you think that AK was sexually abused in past years and now developed a sadistic personality wishing to inflict the same ordeal to other girls?
Melissa, you asked if the press held accounts of the police taking fingerpreints, or measuring AK's hands, as though you expected that of course that information would be released. Get a grip and think before you ask questions if you don't want people to reply to you. *eyebrow* I think that the police have managed to keep some things "close to the breast" and that is why we don't have all the details. Duh...
Bodily fluid can be anything. Not necessarily semen. And might I remind you that you are quoting the Sun?
KatK, they havent kept ANYTHING close to the breast, there is rumor everywhere and we dont know what happened.
We know that Amanda was probably there, MAYBE. The interrogation without representation bothers me a lot. After hours and hours of you did this didnt you, a lot of people make false confessions.
Personally I think she knows something and is scared. Not quite ready to burn her at the stake.
found it here too. i know nothing about the Sun or this source either.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/
news...h_kercher4.html
but when they bodily fluid of a male, that certainly implies semen to me.
Melissa, I see you posted the link while I was typing. The ME amended his initial statements after the arrest to say his conclusions couldn't rule out rape by implied threat.
todger, I gotta say the James M. Cain note seems more & more & more apt, as in Double Indemnity, thought completely without the planning element & without Barbar Stanwyck-self possession.
And thanks, Jackie for addressing the queires. I hope to get back to them & your thoughts.
Melissa, you are mistaking me for someone who is ready to burn AK at the stake.
You can tell male DNA from female DNA whether it be saliva, snot, sweat etc, very easily.
Not discounting that it COULD have happened, but the press in Europe is annoying as are the leaks, some of which are ridiculous.
Oh I wasnt saying you KatK. I am saying in general.
Melissa: the ME hsn't been fully forthcoming on the details of his findings, nor should he at this stage. And it was he who talked directly to the press; there was no leak. The ME was the one who stated that M had had sex but that there were no usual signs of rape, i.e tearing. So lubrication of some sort must have occurred. The moment that M said NO to something, whatever that was, even if after regular sex, it was rape.
I'm begining to have my doubts over the interpretation of the evidence so far, but its not in Amanda's favor. Though ues a truly false confession is still quite possible.
For A Change of Pace:
Her Student Days in Perugia
by Francesca Steel, The Times/Travel.
"I was in Perugia studying Italian on a year abroad as part of my degree five years ago. I was 20 and, like most young foreigners, rather in awe of a group of bar owners and their “crew”. By night they were tending a bar, or rather, one would be giving away drinks at one of the bars they ran while the others would be entertaining girls. Always foreign girls, mind, since, as my flat-mate Silvia explained, an Italian girl wouldn’t have touched them."
continued at
http://tinyurl.com/37hl36
Isnt the ME a female? So far the so called evidence is all screwy.
I really didnt get any hinky feelings from her blogs, other than she is a partier
> Bodily fluid can be anything. Not necessarily semen.
> And might I remind you that you are quoting the Sun?
Yes, the killer(s) might have sneezed ... Achoo! bukakke!
And you might *not* remind me that I'm quoting the Sun, because I'm not--although I might have been paraphrasing the Sun's "upmarket" stablemate, or the Torygraph.
I read the ME's name as male, but hey! I barely passed Spanish to get out of college.
I'm beginning to think there's things WRONG here with the LE conclusions -- especially IF THEY haven't investigated/checked out things like RS's pc usage on the night of 11/1&2, or any of Patrick's alibis, either. I'm buying into Madrid's expressed concerns more & more. Not about what will be evidence but how its been or not been interpreted.
The LAST TIME I remember reading of a lawyer taking that forceful a position in court before a judge was when one of the lawyers did so for a soon to be charged Duke Lacrosse player, the one who had the time-stamped ATM receipts in hand to prove he was elsewhere. And we Ameicans know what Mike Nifong did then--plunged ahead to his utter professional ruin, rather than take 3 steps back and reboot the whole process of evidence review.
That's why I posted The TIMES' set of questions, and why I've been suspicious from the first read of the so-called confessions about the lack of leaked statements from PL. I'm sorry to say this but I think what Madrid detailed may be influencing that part of the case. The ILE did NOT leak any of PL's statements precisely because he mad enone beyond saying I have an alibi go check it! And that didn't fit the swift conclusion Chief Felice wanted.
continue
continued
Now, Madrid & Melissa have cautioned about false confessions I don't think Amanda's confession is totally false--because in both she places HERSELF in the apartment. But then she adds about what she says she heard "but I could imagine [what was happening]" - well she could because she'd already written it. Could indeed be a projection of what she had written on what she now imagines MUST have happened to M.
Yet, if certain things turn out to be TRUE, i.e. provable alibis, then they would indeed strip away a lot more of Amanda's social veneer, revealing a truly ugly interior that she herself may only be confronting for the first time these past few days.
What I mean is that: 1) if Patrick's alibi holds up, i.e. he was at the bar & around the usual haunts, (& note the tense of the second part of what A said about PL on Tuesday, did I want to talk to reporters to learn more about what happened), and 2) Reffaele really was on the phone with dad & net cruising past 1 am,
Amanda's been throwing them under the bus trying to drag them down with her, since her late Monday statement.
So if they weren't there at all, then WHO was in the apartment with Amanda?
Had to have been a man [Amanda's prediliction overall] and, per what Nana wrote, a left-handed man, and one strong enough to both hold a face down and make the cuts. And one who wanted to do just that, to silence the person raped from reporting it.
But why cover for him, Mr. X? Why elaborate a wilder woollier story and drag PL into, and then drag RS into the coverup? [Note that ILE only moved to arrest RS & PL AFTER the late Monday "confession" in which she first places at least PL at the apartment. If they had had more certain phsyical evidence, they would have acted sooner on that.]
Well, he answers himself, perhaps because she's making an hysterical calculation that Mr. X will never be found and so she can act out this "I'm innocent these others made it happen" scenario. (Yes, I am suggesting that you can be both hysterical & calculating at the same time--it would be a preservation instinct, wild-animal trapped response or what I've seen someone in full psychosis do.)
Because only HE, Mr. X, can put her squarely in the room with Meredith not just at the rape, but at the murder. Making her not just an accessory to rape, and so a rapist in her own right, but uniquivocably making her an accessory to murder, so a murderess. He might even be able to argue She goaded Him into it.
Holly way way above called it on the word usage in the short version of the leaked Tuesday confession--the shifting of responsibility onto others. I made another argument in semi-response. BUT if both PL and RS can show alibi for the night of the murder--just the way the ATM Duke fellow could--then I have to agree with Holly.
* Amanda's previously unrealized tastes in psychopathology blossomed when nurtured by drugs & Mr X, and, unaware of the danger, Me
then unaware of the danger, Meredith walked home alone.
Thus, despite what Chief de Felice thinks today, Meredith's direct killer is still out there.
* I'll bet that the male fluid won't match PL or RS, thus proving that Mr X was there and is the most likely killer.
The Knox family just issued this statement:
SEATTLE, Nov. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- The events that have unfolded in Perugia, Italy over the last few days regarding our daughter, Amanda, have shocked and devastated our family. We love our daughter very much and certainly stand by her through this ordeal. We know she is probably frightened and upset about what has happened, and needs all the support her family can give her. We would ask the media to respect the privacy of the members of our families and friends, and refrain from putting further pressure on them for interviews and comment, especially our children.
Robert M, there is a number after #. Just move your mouse over the # and you will see the URL on the bottom of your browser. The final 5 digits is the post number.
The whole investigation looks like a quick frame to me, and has from the beginning. I don't doubt Amanda was in the house, but I feel certain her Italian boyfried had nothing to do with the murder. Patrick's lawyer stated with certainty that he had an alibi. Like Robert M., I'm reminded of the Duke injustices.
I hope the Italian police get busy and find the real killer. Surely they're smart enough to realize he's still out there.
The situation reminds me of the mayor in "Jaws" who wouldn't allow public shark warnings because he'd lose tourist income if the danger became known.
“I think other reasons for some of the commenters' prejudices in her favor are that she's middle-class and was going to college. I get the feeling that a lot of people on this blog are 20-40 years older than she is, and working-class. Maybe they think going to an unselective college and spending a year abroad is something really special, more like it was 30 years ago (when far fewer people did such things).”
Are you KIDDING me? Wow. I was thinking that I’m not CONVINCED of her guilt as some other posters, specifically because of the way the LE in the McCann case has acted. Forgive me if I’ve become less than trusting of the media, as well. But “20-40 years older than she is, and working class?” All I can say is your arrogance outweighs any comments you may have made, or will make in the future. IMO, of course.
“it is a well known fact that the American PEOPLE themselves, blowhardy as we may be, are some of the most generous people around. Which will be as evident (and as taken for granted) as it always is the next time there is some disaster and we are the first nation there giving out blankets and food and medicine.”
Amen, Pennies. Funny how that works. IIRC, Americans gave the most monetarily, when the tsunami hit in Malaysia, in 2004. Evil-doers that we are. {eyeroll}
“ Then it would seem she's done for.”
Floh, PLEASE take everything you read in the media, with a ton of salt.
I'm less than 20 years older than AK, though I guess you could call our household "working class". I've adopted a "wait and see" approach to see what each side has to say. I didn't see anything odd about AK at first, but the more I read her entries the more I began to sense an undercurrent in her personality that I think she is very good at covering with smokescreens. That doesn't make her a murderess, or an accomplice to rape and murder though.
I am less than 20 years older as well, definitely working class (who doesnt work?) But I dont sense the undercurrent, other than a partier who found herself in a bad place.
She looks like a deer caught in the headlights to me.
Scenario that is more plausible to me at this point....
Too much alcohol, too many drugs, (she cant remember stuff). She knows something bad is going down, but is not in the right state of mind to do anything. Being in a blackout stage would definitely put someones alibi in a bind, especially if it came back to her the next day in bits and pieces.
This is the scenario that seems most likely to me.
But like the people willing to think she is guilty without any kind of real evidence besides rumors, I may be wrong as well.
I want to know more about the old lady who received a threatening phone call on a mobile phone which belonged to the dead girl. The elderly lady's report to the police was what led them to the murder scene. Officers were approaching the murder house at the time RS was calling the police.
I'd also be interested in the details of evidence found in a neighboring house whose occupants were away at the time. It's been reported that the killer used their bathroom to clean himself after he fled the murder scene.
Yeah, that is something that caused my eyebrows to brush my hairline also. It's just *BIZARRE*! A phone is ringing, that isn't hers, yet she answers it anyway, and assumes threats being made over it are directed at *her*?! *BLINK*
I'm betting the bar owner has been "set up" - he's been there the longest - would have the most to lose - probably picks up on the "tourists" regularly, but not this way.
I find myself agreeing with Robert M.and have read some reports regarding unidentified fingerprints (I will bet non-matching DNA when that gets back) Unfortunately I am a writer and I see several scenarios which include some of suspects AT SOME POINT and the recollections of our hopped up AK (read she was into hash in Perugia) are not always intentionally inaccurate. For example what if she is mistaken about who was in with Meredith?
Update: Amanda's fingerprint was found on Meredith's face placing her at the scene of the attack. According to reports Amanda pressed her face down so hard that an imprint was left on her face. My bf is an attorney and he says she is DONE.
Gen...I agree but I think she was "done" long before that...like when she became perceived in Italy as an uppity drunken drugged-out slutty American blond in direct connection to a hideous crime. Of course she may be, I dunno, but I would love to see the "evidence" Is this "pressing in the face so hard" imprint visible to the naked eye? But I agree with your bf...she will not be needing her Huskie tickets.
Interesting background piece on being a foreign student in Perugia though the author seems to sense the unsavory nature of the bar scene she likely doesn't know there is even another layer beneath that.
http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/
...icle2834591.ece
Also there is Perugia Blog written in English as a second language which mentions some think Lumumba was a "domineering" character.
Is there any evidence that precludes the following scenario:
Meredith had some consensual sexual activity with some man or men earlier in the evening. After they left, Knox came into her bedroom and stabbed her for the thrill of it, or perhaps out of anger or jealousy. (Meredith was "skinny," and Knox looks chunky and sturdy in the pictures she posted.) Then she tried to cover up the crime, perhaps enlisting the help of other men who might have been there that night. Perhaps she threatened them to get their help -- said they'd get blamed themselves for rape and murder.
Did anyone here ever read Chuck Pahlaniuk's "Haunted?" The story was mainly about wannabe writers doing insane, self-harming and brutal things simply for fodder. Not saying that's typical behavior, of course -- just a possible motive in this case. She wanted to be special and original, and extreme behavior was the only way she could do it.
Are you KIDDING me? Wow. I was thinking that I’m not CONVINCED of her guilt as some other posters, specifically because of the way the LE in the McCann case has acted. Forgive me if I’ve become less than trusting of the media, as well. But “20-40 years older than she is, and working class?” All I can say is your arrogance outweighs any comments you may have made, or will make in the future. IMO, of course.
Wow, Soobs, I don't see what I said to deserve that. What's so "inexcusably arrogant" about a demographic statement (one I pretty much fit, by the way)?
No insult was intended. I'll admit I really don't want this woman painted as a gifted achiever or bold adventuress, and I could see those labels being tempting because they add glamor to the story. (Steve chapped me a little by referring to her alleged "demonstrable intellect," which I don't think is demonstrated at all. ) I think that many people still accord college students -- any student of any college -- a special reverence that is less merited nowadays than it used to be. The same reverence is often accorded to young people who travel. I'm worried her attendance at UW and her travel to Italy will lead the public to view her too favorably. I don't think she deserves that. She's shown no signs of being anything above average for a middle-class white girl, except with her excessive behavior.
Sky News is reporting that a bloody knife was found at RS apartment, but police aren't confirming it yet. (click Homepage link for story)
From Sky News again... "Updated:07:28, Friday November 09, 2007... An imprint found on the face of murdered British student Meredith Kercher reportedly matches Amanda Knox's fingerprints, a hearing in Italy has been told."
(I'm pretty computer savvy, but new to this whole blog posting thing. Previewing this entry doesn't show the link, so if this is the case it's a bit embarrassing not to be able to embed links like other posters...How do ya do it? Duh! Thx!)
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1292165,00.html
Never mind... the link doesn't show in the preview but does get posted. 
P.S. When I noted the difference in the two women's body types, I was trying to make a case that Amanda could have overpowered Meredith, at least if she got the jump on her.
Holly's Note: I'm worried her attendance at UW and her travel to Italy will lead the public to view her too favorably.
Not to worry: at least people in Seattle know except for the hospital...UW is no big deal. I do not see her however, as the thrill kill type.
This was a sex thing with at least one male (goading each other on) which got violent when M resisted and the guy went off on M with the knife and I do not think meant to kill her...I think it was the killer calling the next morning "threatening" the old lady (thinking it was M) who picked up Ms bloody cell phone. I wonder if the killer even knew she was dead. By the way...no reports of cuts, bruises, marks on any of the three suspects? That would be odd if M was fighting for her life. You would think they would want to leak that.
Has anyone else got a horrible feeling that this case is going to take ages to come to trial, as the three testify and plea bargain against each other thus prolonging the agony for Meredith Kercher's family (not that they will ever get over it)?
The judge has just confirmed the arrest of the 3 suspects, all accused of rape and murder. They will remain in prison for up to a year as they wait for the trial. Suuuurely, at this point, we can say the police have proof that all three were in the room at the time of the murder.
...just to clarify...the judge says there are sufficent grounds to keep the 3 in prison as the investigation continues. In Italy, this is possible for up to 1 year. My suuurely is less sure. It all depends on the scientific evidence at the scene and the 2 alibis.
Only a question: how did you read her blog? How did you cerate mirrored page? I know Amanda's blog was private. Thanks for information.
Laura
What is sure, however...
AK was there.
MK was gang raped, stabbed 3 times and then left to die.
Forensics will tell us if P or R were there. How long does it take for this kind of scientific analysis to be done? I have no idea..do the police have this information now?
The analysis will take months and months.
Thanks blimetheckers...but surely they can check the fingerprints found in the room with the suspects now?! and the semen samples...would that take longer?
the latest twist is that a man in Rome recieved a text message 2 days before the killing...'for me, Meredith dies tonight or tomorrow' The police are trying to trace it...if this is accurate!!! For what its worth 'for me' sounds like an italian speaker...'per me'
Well, they might only have her fingerprints...no one elses. It certainly won't get done in a month, the labs will have other crimes they are working on and this one will go to the back of the queue I suspect. I could very well be wrong, but I think this is going to take a long time to come to trial, because of the nature of the case and three defendants.
police rushed the case is not solved. It's going to take a long time I think.
Especially if the do not find traces of P and R in A an M's house
Laura, the blog (and her whole myspace page) wasn't private untill yesterday, and was available to view in full by everyone untl someone (presumably one of her friends or family) got into the account and set it to private. I read through her site and blog and alos through that of many of her frineds (to see the comments she had been leaving for her friends), but one by one they were all setting them to private, obvisouly aware of the public interest.
Laura:
I sent you an e-mail about the blog. It wasn't private at first. It wasn't hard to find at the time. I saved the code and re-uploaded it to my own server.
All: One thing about the investigation into this case so far... I don't know about the gendarmerie there in Perugia in particular, but my understanding is that Italian law enforcement in general has a better rep worldwide than some other European agencies. All countries will have corruption in LE, but Italian cops have solved some pretty complex and gruesome crimes in the past, and they've been fighting the Mafia forever and a day.
I've begun to understand the criticism heaped on the Portuguese authorities investigating the McCann disappearance -- the change in the top cop investigating was a red flag there.
Here, I may be inclined to have a bias in favor of Italians after all those years I've spent learning the art of opera and the language that dominates that art, but I've read up on some pretty storied true crime cases from the Boot, and they do some good sleuthing there when they want.
The Judge states that M. was killed by the knife of R. who used to bring it always with himself
Well said Steve! I know Palermo LE have produced 'results' under tremendous pressure from inside and out.
As for this case I find it interesting especially following the Euro angle from Portugal and the McCanns being used to front the drive for a pan-EU LE/investigative body. Now this case brings in the US and to some degree the interest of Africa's elite class to the argument for a pan-boundary LE..
Will we all have SIM cards as ID and monetary instruments? I reckon so if what's occurring in London is anything to go by.
Hysteria and misinformation (like people posting inaccurate info on this blog) are the conditions that exist before totalitarian and fascist factions take power.
When the current credit crisis hits depression stage God help us becuse the individual crimes we examine here will pale in comparison to an over-arching 'new world order'.
lordy, lordy, duck and cover
I'd heard they were examining one of his knives...has it been confirmed as the murder weapon?
Corriere and Repubblica report the judge saying that was R.'s knife but I don't know on what grounds she claims this.
If it was confirmed by the forensic analysis R. and A. are in deep shit. P. could have been indicated as an escape goat by A.
This post probably a bit late now as all the suspects are being possibly held in Jail for up to a year. But there are so many unanswered questions in this case. I’m not even sure they will be ever answered. Some of this is a bit of rehash I apologise in advance. I’m a bit of bad speller but I hope this makes sense.
The Times
Newspapers in Perugia reported that police believe a fourth person may have been involved after the discovery of a heel imprint in the cottage and a fingerprint on Ms Kercher’s blood-soaked pillow that “do not correspond to the three suspects”. Who is the 4th person, Is it a male or female?
Two have reported seeing Ms Knox at a launderette washing clothes and a pair of trainers after the murder. – Who clothes and trainers was she washing, was she washing her clothes or Meredith clothes.
The message saying "For me, tomorrow or tonight Meredith dies" was sent two days before the London exchange student was found dead in a pool of blood after her throat was cut. – Who sent this message .this means the murder was premeditated by someone. Why would someone want to kill Meredith? Did Meredith have some information about something or someone?
The daily mail has stated this - However it is believed none of this DNA evidence belongs to Lumumba "Patrick" Diya, the bar manager who Amanda Knox has suggested was the one who cut Meredith's throat.
Mr Lumumba's lawyers said last night he had denied ever going to the house. He was said to have told the judge that he was working. His lawyers said there were "witnesses and documentary proof" of this. – If this true why is still being held. Is there something else which is not being said publicly?
Daily Mail - On her My space page, Knox, who has German ancestry on her mother's side, jokes that she is secretly a Nazi. What does that mean she believes in the Aryan race and all others should be destroyed or she just admitting to being part German
A picture of her laughing and posing while holding a machine gun in Germany has the caption: 'The Nazi on the inside
The police bugged Knox's mobile phone and she was overheard telling Sollecito on Monday night: "I cannot do it any more, I cannot bear it." – What could she not bear knowing who killed Meredith or something else, if so what?
Mr Lumumba admitted to Ms Matteini that he had met Ms Kercher a month before her death. This, however, contradicts his claim made at the time of his arrest that he did not know her at all. – Why did he lie about knowing Meredith or was just not familiar with her name.
When she came into my bar the first time, she asked me for a vodka," he said. "We immediately became friends, and she was going to do PR at my venue; she was going to hand out flyers. She would have been ideal, as she knew so many people and had so many friends. She made friends really easily
I read a quote I think the Sun or Mirror newspaper. A local resident or student had described Patrick as creepy and th
Damian: I've seen that report too, about the text message saying 'Meredith dies...etc'. It is seriously weird if it is true- the guy in Rome(- not Perugia!? I wonder if we'll ever find out if he has any link to Perugia?) claims that he didn't recognise the number it came from and just deleted it. The person who has reported it could just be an attention seeker trying to get 15 seconds of fame. But if not- kids (and those slightly older too, I'd guess) sometimes play around with mobile phones, ringing random numbers and talking to strangers, leaving silly messages or 'bluetoothing' pictures and files to anyone within range. Could the sending of this text message be a much more macabre variation on this theme- sending a message of intent out into the ether to a random number? (A little like the YouTube video that preceded this week's school massacre in Finland?) If the police can find a record of the text message to verify that it really was recieved, and trace it to the phone of someone in Perugia and/or who knew Meredith, I'd say its very strong evidence of premeditation, and also of immaturity. Something that Amanda Knox's blog smacked of from beginning to end, IMHO (anyone else shocked at the childish, blase way in which she dismissed and blew off that once-in-a-lifetime work experience post her uncle set up for her in Germany? Ingrate! I don't often feel like slapping someone, and never would, but the girl was an idiot not to at least try to make the most of that opportunity).
FWIW, I've been a student on and off for the past 14 years (and for the record, am now three years into my PhD and would conside myself professional, rather than working class- but I am STILL less than 20 years older than Amanda Knox ). I have shared houses and apartments at home and abroad with a wide variety of people. About 10 years ago I spent a short time in Perugia with similar housemates, in similar circumstances and in a similar house to the one this happened in. I even attended some classes at the Universita per Stranieri (although it was a friend rather than myself who was the student there- I was just visiting) It doesn't sound like its changed much in the last decade, since I'd agree with the people who have more recent experience of the place, that it is a small and friendly town, the old town part at least, with a thriving student social scene. I'd guess that although people might be a little more promiscuous there now than they were then, there are still all types of people living there, and not all the students are promiscuous, binge-drinking, drug-taking 'partiers'. (The girls that Meredith went to watch a video with, in one of whom she appears to have confided, for example, sound like they *might* have been living a quite different, and quiter lifestyle to Amanda Knox). We always hear all about the 'pratying' but there are always other, tamer forms of socialising going on in any town and even in any student community...I wonder
I read a quote I think the Sun or Mirror newspaper. A local resident or student had described Patrick as creepy and that he had asked her out on a date which she declined.
Police believe that Ms Kercher knew her killer well enough to open the door to him. It emerged yesterday that traces of blood had been found not only in the cottage, which she shared with three housemates, but also in another cottage on the hillside below them, rented by four Italian students from the Le Marche region. Reports said that the killer appeared to have cleaned himself up after the bloody murder not only at Ms Kercher’s house but also in the one below, to which he evidently had a key, since there was no sign of a break-in.
The four students from Le Marche were not in the house at the time. All have alibis, police said. – Have these alibis being checked. Its quite strange that the killer was able to use the bathroom downstairs, was the door open for the killer if there was no forced entry or did he have a key. Could the killer be one of men who lives downstairs.
I also read a quote somewhere possibly in the Sun newspaper with Sollecito’s had told reporters that Meredith Boyfriend lived in the flat downstairs.
On the investigators’ files is a statement from two men who came forward on 3 November. “Early yesterday afternoon”, they say, “we went to the coin-operated laundry in Via Fabretti to do our washing. It was about 1.30 pm. We wandered off for a few minutes and when we got back to the Laundromat we saw a woman and a foreigner. The foreigner left when we arrived. In front of the woman, we commented on the foreigner’s curious behaviour. She said that the foreigner had staggered in shortly before and put his washing into the machine, including some blue Nike trainers. Then he left and got stuck in the door but quickly managed to freed himself. A little later, he came back and we saw him take his washing out of the machine and put it in the dryer. The woman said she had seen him rummaging in a rubbish skip with another foreigner. He’s about one metre 75 tall with olive skin and must be North African”. It is not known who the man is or whether his odd behaviour has anything to do with the murder. At this stage, however, investigators do not want to overlook any details as they seek to discover whether any other people may have been involved in the murder – Who is this man is one of Amanda’s men, is he the real killer or the 4th Man?
The old lady who picked up Meredith phone, what did the threats say, why would anyone being threading Meredith. I can only guess it was about not going to the police after being assaulted – Could the call come from a u/k male or PL as they wouldn’t know she was dead.
I did think of a possible scenario. I don’t know how viable it is. Amanda and PL or U/k Male sexually assault Meredith. After Amanda sobers up she realises what she has done and begs Meredith not to go the police. Meredith refuses. Amanda goes to Collection ask
"I don't see what I said to deserve that. What's so "inexcusably arrogant" about a demographic statement (one I pretty much fit, by the way)?"
I read your comment as the only reason one would find her innocent (I am not there, but I do have big questions about all the "leaks" and "facts" of the case as they've been presented so far)is if they were 20-40 years older than her, and were "working class" (whatever that means. Maids? Educated persons working for others?) As if not believing anything the media prints (they are notorious for printing and saying anything that will sell papers - then not even printing a retraction when proven wrong) or finding it peculiar that LE has stated "case closed" less than a week after the murder (CSI effect?)or even the fact that LE is talking - how can we be sure what they are leaking, is what took place? And in what context?
I just don't believe your assertion that old people, who work for a living and may have studied abroad "30 years ago" are the only people who have questions about her guilt. And I do believe that was the thrust of your previous post.
...I wonder if Meredith, who although clearly sociable, appears by all accounts to have been the slightly 'quieter' type, thought she would be safe moving in with three other girls, and then found she was the 'odd one out' when it came to lifestyle? Its happened to me, and I'm sure many others, especially during the student experience- kind of a case of 'marry in haste, repent at leisure' on the accommodation front. When you are young, inexperienced, excited, and desperate for a place to live, you often find one in a hurry, sign a legally binding contract, and then spend up to a year regretting it because of what you then find out about the people you have to share with. It can be MISERABLE having to live with people you don't like or connect with, and I speak from experience.
There's another saying that comes to mind that might apply- that 'you spend the first three weeks of your unversity experience making friends that you then spend the next three years trying to get rid of.' Of course, that isn't meant to suggest murder! But I cant help but wonder, IF this was premeditated, and Knox was directly involved in Meredith's killing, was it the culmination of a clash of personalities (one of them perhaps disordered or otherwise abnormal?) and lifestyles, that had become increasingly irritating to Amanda over the weeks they had been living together? Could the murder have come about partly as a reaction to Meredith's perceived disapproval of Amanda and the company she was keeping?
This story is shocking- especially the apparent heavy involvement of Amanda Knox, who looks superficially like a sweet young girl. I do find it strange that she didn't mention Meredith once on her blog- do we know when Meredith actually moved in to the cottage?
"Suuuurely, at this point, we can say the police have proof that all three were in the room at the time of the murder."
In the past, I may have conceded that point. However, after spending 18 months watching the worst case of prosecutorial misconduct, violation of civil rights, LYING in court, and in court documents, HIDING exculpatory evidence, just because one man wanted to win an election (and have no doubt, Durham PD, as well as the Mayor, and others were complicit and will go DOWN)...call me jaded.
" Only a question: how did you read her blog? How did you cerate mirrored page? I know Amanda's blog was private. Thanks for information"
Laura, please know that NOTHING is private, on the web. NOTHING. Anything you wish to be private....well, start a diary and burn it, or keep it in your head. Seriously, people are under the misimpression that there is privacy on the internet. There isn't.
I agree Giuseppe..A and R are in deep shit...also because the police have found no record of the supposed phone call with his doctor daddy at 11 that night. If Patricks alibi holds and there is no proof he was at the house, why are they still holding him? And the fourth person??? Apparently he's an Algerian who works with Patrick at his bar
The old lady who picked up Meredith phone, what did the threats say, why would anyone being threading Meredith. I can only guess it was about not going to the police after being assaulted – Could the call come from a u/k male or PL as they wouldn’t know she was dead.
I did think of a possible scenario. I don’t know how viable it is. Amanda and PL or U/k Male sexually assault Meredith. After Amanda sobers up she realises what she has done and begs Meredith not to go the police. Meredith refuses. Amanda goes to Solectio asking for help and he brings his knives (he apparently always carry a pen knife) Amanda holds her down while Solectio slits her throat and possibly stabs her 3 times. They attempt the clean up and make it look like someone broke in, a few trips to bathroom to wash the blood. They lock the door and smash the window (I read somewhere the window was broken from the inside) and leave the house and take my mobile phones so Meredith can call for help.
I personally believe that what Amanda Knox is not telling the truth. I believe there are more suspects. I think Amanda is lying about what happen on that night. Im not even sure her versions of events are correct. There is a possibly something else was going on. I find the whole sex party /orgy gone wrong a bit difficult to believe.
I think the Italian police are too eager to declare the case closed to make citizens of Perugia feel safe. I believe only forensics will answer the questions in this case. I believe Amanda hasn’t being entirely honest. Sollectio has admitted lying to police. Patrick hasn’t been entirely truthful declaring he did not know Meredith.
All three suspects seem intelligent and bright individuals and Im not sure how things could of escalated to Meredith being murdered unless she was murdered for another reason. Two of the suspects have openly displayed a dark side. If they were trying to cover their tracks they have done an extremely bad job. There is forensics all over the flat and mobile phones being disposed of near the scene.
was P an amanda's fuck buddy?
I wonder if when she was quoted as saying "I met Patrick on November 1", what she meant was that she met UP with him that morning? And when it's quoted as her saying "I want to tell you what happened..." we don't know what that was in response to....did the police confront her and ask her if she wanted to tell them what happened?
One thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I can tell, all the bits of statements have been translated from Italian into English (probably, in Amanda's case, after first being translated from English into Italian). This can play havoc with nuances.
The Italian 'ho incontrato Patrick' would translate literally as 'I met Patrick', but there isn't the subtext of 'for the first time' that could be inferred in English. I'd take it to mean 'I met up with Patrick' or 'I ran into Patrick'.
The same applies to most of the translated snippets. Nuances go funny.
On the tangent about various nationalities and promiscuity... From what I've seen, people of all nationalities are more likely to sleep around when they're away from home - wherever home may be. You're on holiday, you're on a year away, it feels like your normal rules just don't apply. So the locals, in every country, are left with the impression that Those Tourists Are A Buncha Sluts.
On telegraph.co.uk :
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
'From reading the first summary of Dr Lalli's report, deposited at the court on November 8 2007, after the autopsy on the corpse of Meredith Kercher, it emerges that the wound had not hit the carotide artery so the death was preceded by a relatively slow agony, circumstances which allow use to date back the time of the criminal act to between 21.30pm and 11.30pm on the day of November 1 2007, a timetable which tallies with the consumption of dinner in an hour before 9pm.'
(Except from a translation of the official police report on the murder of Meredith Kercher, obtained by the Telegraph)
'The attention of the investigators centred, however, on Knox Amanda and her boyfriend, Sollecito Raffaele.
In the first place, when it comes to these two, it has been shown that despite their affirmations to the Postal Police, it is not true that they had called 112 for the intervention of the Carabinieri military police, thinking that they had suffered a blow.
In fact, from our investigation it emerged that the Postal Police arrived at 12.35 while the call to 112 came at 12.51 and 12.54, circumstances that suggest a conduct that they wished it to be thought they had been surprised outside the building where the homicide was carried out. '
(On telegraph.co.uk :
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg)
'while Lumumba was in the court hearing he confirmed that he had opened the pub in the afternoon of November 1 at around 1700 to 1800. The first receipts are shown to start from 22.29 and the suspect was not able to give any logical explanation for these circumstances, and was not able to furnish precise indications of the eventual clients who could attest to his presence in the pub before 22.29...
..It must be further added that in the moment when this judge put the contestation to the suspect, he remained in silence for a few minutes seeking to justify the "gap" by saying the receipts started not from the moment of order but when the client left the pub.
However, this justification does not hold up in as far as it does not explain how from 1800 to 2229 there were no receipts and these only started from 22.29 to closing time. More discrepancies about the closing time of the pub before its stated closing time came in the statements of one of its habitual clients, Vulcano Gerardo Pasquale, who was heard for the first time on November 7 2007, who said on the evening of the 1 November, towards 1900 that the pub was closed'.
(On telegraph.co.uk
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
Lili- I agree totally with your comment- I think everyone explores beyond their normal boundaries and tries out new things when they are away from their usual environment and circumstances. That doesn't have to mean sexual promiscuity, of course, but often does. Being away from all things familiar often has an effect on one's inhibitions. Again, I find myself wondering whether this 'new environment' factor, and its possible effect on inhibitions and grasp on reality, played a part in Amanda Knox's alleged involvement in either the sexual assault, the murder, or both? Her creative writing does suggest that she was somewhat of a dark fantasist- I can understand why whoever it was earlier suggested that she might have been fancying herself as a bit of a Henry Miller-esque leading lady in some sort of European 'Noir' tale?
UPDATE: Knife belonging to RS IS the murder weapon.
The judge investigating the murder of Meredith Kercher has identified a knife belonging to Raffaele Sollecito, the Italian boyfriend of Ms Kercher's American flatmate Amanda Knox, as the murder weapon.
Giving the reasons for her decision to allow the detention of Mr Sollecito, Ms Knox and Patrick Diya Lumumba, Judge Claudia Matteini said that the knife was used to first threaten and then kill Ms Kercher.
She said the weapon, believed to be a flick knife, was one that Mr Sollecito "always carried with him". It had been used to cut Ms Kercher's throat, Judge Matteini said, although it was not yet established who had wielded the knife to deal the mortal blow.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2841412.ece
Update: The knife belonging to RS IS the Murder weapon per judge today. Holy crap, these kids are in deep s**t. What the hell would possess them to do something like this? As for Patrick, I have no idea.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2841412.ece
According to that Times article, she is writing her version of events in her cell?
WTF? Like her short story about the two brothers?
On another note, I speak Italian, and I read in the Italian press that the bodily residue that was found on her body was not semen but it did imply sexual activity. Was it pubic hair or saliva then? I would guess pubic hair.
I just wanted to say that I have changed my mind about Amanda. I think it is obvious that she and Sollecito are involved in the murder. I think it is still a question whether Lumumba is involved-- if he really does have these witnesses, he should be breathing free and easy.
Amazing that Sollecito brought the murder weapon with him to the police interview. This is either a cluelessness that is so profound as to be shocking or else and arrogance that is so profound as to be shocking. It's one of those-- the other possibility is that the police are completely wrong about the murder weapon, and he brought the pen knife because he assumed he had nothing to hide.
Wow-- confusing case.
This morning I just want to second Lili's point about translations, whether its by a UK reporter doing a very quick & literal job on the Judge's Report (again at here & doesn't that make interesting reading)
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
A phrase like "thinking that they had suffered a blow", re when PS called police, leaves me scratching my head as to colloguial meaning. AND, more imporantly, its only a partial translation of the whole report, which either the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph report stretched out over 6 1/2 hours (I'm presuming each peson had a separate hearing).
The DT does a better job of presenting the Fourth Person scenario at
http://tinyurl.com/3ypzoz
As Gen & seatllite note above, IF & I stress IF there is a CLEAR & wholly identifiable fingerprint of A's in blood on M's face, then she is indeed Guilty. There's many a person now in US prisons based on blood evidence, even just a drop, & there's also the oppsoite--those released based on failure to match under present techniques.
But with all due respect to Steve's, point, which I shared at the beginning just based on the amount of resoruces the ILE threw at this case, its the Interpretation of Evidence that has rasied my eyebrows now. Especially re RS' flick knife/knives. If no blood evidence on that, it can be coutneres that there are plenty of such knives around and its common for young men to carry them for ll manner of purposes.
The prelim judge has accepted the INITIAL evidence presentation on it sface value. I'd suspect that, expecially in murder level cases, a prelim judge does that in at least 95% of the cases. Better safe than sorry. Damien, this is where myself & soobs are coming from. Not that the evidence is cooked but that its a matter of interpretation and of oruse we are only seeing selected bits through the haze of translation.
And erhw thanks for sharing that personal perspective of student lviign & perugia.
Reports in the Italian press also suggest that 120 diffent pieces of DNA evidence have been retrieved from the crime scene where Meredith was murdered.
However it is believed none of this DNA evidence belongs to Lumumba "Patrick" Diya, the bar manager who Amanda Knox has suggested was the one who cut Meredith's throat.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...r409.xml&
page=3
Interesting about Patrick that none of his DNA was in the room. I wonder why they are still holding him.
"Thinking the suffered a blow" is the literal translation for "thinking they had suffered a break-in."
Mssiy re this comment by you:
Daily Mail notes that "On her My space page, Knox, who has German ancestry on her mother's side, jokes that she is secretly a Nazi." What does that mean? She believes in the Aryan race and all others should be destroyed or she just admitting to being part German? A picture of her laughing and posing while holding a machine gun in Germany has the caption: 'The Nazi on the inside'.
Well for one thing it shows a real lack of getting over the reality of the Holocaust in even private Jesuit education in history. The vast majority of kids her age don't have a real grasp of what the Nazis did & what the German people accepted. (Heck just remember the trouble Prince H got into re his party get-up a few years back.) And without that knowledge its real easy to act insensitive & silly/stupid as in the photo. Then too Amanda 's snaps that have made it to the papers almost all show a person who loves to mug for the camera, a normal trait. The former is a cultural lack that leads to insenitivity matching up with normal screwing around. Its only in the light of Meredith's death that it seems to have meaning. It doesn't. She's first & foremost an American suburban girl who, up to this point, was indeed making something out of her opportunities.
As was Meredith. Two "similar coins" or even two sides of the same "well-educated, intelligent girl goes abroad for this century's version of the Grand Tour" -- so similar & yet one is dead & the other is accused of her murder.
Robert M. | 11.08.07 - 7:35 pm | #
Robert M. | 11.08.07 - 8:35 pm | #
Robert M: You must be confusing my comments with others', or else I'm misreading your reference to my comments. I did not say anything about evidence of fingerprints being found on MK's face, although I did suggest that MK may have already been in bed, and was therefore at a huge disadvantage in protecting herself from her attackers.
I haven't read all published articles about this case, and would very much appreciate it if commenters would link articles when they quote them.
About MK's phone: I thought MK's phone had been used to SEND a threatening message to an older lady, then someone made a comment about the lady finding MK's phone and hearing a threatening msg sent TO MK's phone.
Which is it? Anybody have the article handy?
RobertM, just to add to your comment about her being a 'nazi on the inside', you can see on the youtube video that she is sitting among friends, one of whom is a jew. Another guy is having a joke wth him and calling him a dirty f*ing jew. It certainly isn't being said maliciously and just seems to be a group of silly kids messing around. Amanda, irrespective of what she may or may not be guilty of, doesn't come across as a nazi believer in the aryan race
Ah, Madrid! Thanks for the translation of the translation. It was "suffered" that threw me -- well "blow" too. I guessing an american cop would have written "thinking the house had been burglarized." But that's typical of the various translations done by either English-speaking Italian stringers for the UK reports. hey need a re-write deskman but those are likely not staffed any more.
Nana, the second version you report re old lady & phone is the version that appeared in the first UK paper write-ups. I'd click on Steve's man links first & then the early links posted here to find it. Later rewrites may have shifted the emphasis.
But 1) old lady found phone, 2) old lady accessed message [unclear whether it was a text or a direct call she took while holding the cell], 3) old lady took offense, 4) old lady reported it to police, 5) police traced cell number to Meredith, 6) police arrived at houe to find A & R, 7) R having supposedly just called his sister, a police lieutenant, to ask her what should he do [despite what the prelim judge wrote, this point, that R called sister, has not been challenged in print].
If I've confused a comment of yours with another's, sorry! I'll try to check later.
Also, Madrid, you wrote: According to that Times article, she is writing her version of events in her cell? WTF? Like her short story about the two brothers?
Better not be, as that'd cook her goose even more than it already is, based SOLELY on her "two confessions". * BY HER OWN ADMISSION, SHE PLACES HERSELF AT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME. * And that's BEFORE any fingerprint/blood evidence might prove conclusive. I don't know how she could retract THAT at this point. Her lawyer's got a task even before the physical evidence. I'm wondering if the final document will be more of a J'Accuse than a St. Augustinian Confessio.
I'd suspect that her lawyer, 1) having told her to "shut up!" [she invoked her right to remain silent at hearing], now 2) needs to have a document in English that gives her more "considered version" of what happened so as to a) bring him up to speed with the help of her mother, working from both an English & Italian version, and b) so he can use it in juxtaposition with the physical evidence when he gets to see that--whenever. Also, it clearly gives her something to do, and it helps focus her thinking to boot. She is good at paragraphing correctly (the Jesuits, again). The person who is SAID to have told RS over her cell phone "I can't take it anymore" is someone who, for whatever specific reason(s), was getting overwhelmed by internal conflicts.
Which is why 1) the ILE went after her so directly in interrogation (the lions sensing vulvernability), and 2) why she got a psychologist to see her yesterday, likely at either prison staff request or her lawyers' request [is she suicidal?].
Of course, this is the perfect opportunity for her to request an Italian dictionary & a copy of Harry Potter in Italian to work on her proper vocabulary, an idea she blogged about. With some facility for picking up language, I'm sure she's already getting the useful daily slang down, as I think "!" suggested in his/her colloquial manner way above.
Me? I'd give her also all three volumes of Dante, along with John Ciardi's American translation for aid. And maybe a copy of the recent thriller The Dante Club as a further instrument of personal reflection.
Ah. For a language-deaf person like myself, to see my ex-w sight read any Romance language was like experiencing a conjuring trick. (I know she could dream in French, her official other language.) When Steve referred to A's "intellectual talents", this is part of what he meant, I'm sure. And I automatically extended that comment in my mind to Meredith, as re the two coins comment above.
I think I'll keep spelling out Meredith's name. Resto nella pace.
we need more crime prevention. young female students shouldn't be allowed to go abroad
the judge says that A and R spent the afternoon smoking pot. After cruising a couple of bars in town, they met up with P outside the university for foreigners and went back to A's house. Meredith was already there or came back soon after. (Patrick had wanted A's help in getting together with Meredith) A and R went into A's room and P went into Meredith's room. Then R (presumably with A)went into Meredith's room, suggesting (the judge) that he wanted to join them. Meredith refused and was killed
Requiescat in Pacem, dear Robert.
Et lux perpetuam luceat eae.
(It's latin anyway)
p.s. the prelim judge version, as reported by Italian newspaper, is as for now that a meeting between PL and MK had been organised by AK; PL went at 9pm and he and MK left off to MK's room. Then RS arrived, he and AK begun partying, RS insisted to join MK and PL in MK's room, then "something wrong" happened. It's not still clear which are the responsibilities of each of the three, but they all were on crime scene, and left it with a considerable hurry and in an incredible mess due to shock.
No one here mentions PL's alibi anymore.
BTW, in my opinion erhw's point on difficulties in cohabitation makes particularly sense as deep motive of the crime. I've been in Erasmus myself (I'm Italian and apologise about my english..in all case i have lived in France) and I can understant that the sense of isolation arising from living abroad and nasty neighbours may drive you crazy (though not until murder of course.)
where did u get this from Damian?
Don't we know all that Damian, from yesterday? Is there anything new there?
Damian, you're right. The three first met then moved to AK&MK apart, where M eventually arrived later. Anyway, it seems that PL and MK were left alone in the girl's room for a while (was she still willing at this point?) and then the reconstruction follows the path I mentioned.
! the judges report I found on www.telegraph.co.uk
Sorry Madrid...it came out this morning over here and I've been working all day...
Within the year of imprisonment, I presume the prosecution can build it's case, and then hopefully it can come quickly to trial. I presume it is a bit like being 'on remand' in the UK?
http://tinyurl.com/2ls4yy
Judge's official report in Telegraph.
"Extreme sex game"
Madrid re Damian's comment. Actually, no. If you put together the Daily T & the Dail M online re-writes, which do get new headlines as they are re-written over the course of the day, you'll see that both papers go with different details from the Judge's report. The DM's translated version reads:
A short while later Meredith returned or she could have already been there went into her bedroom with Patrick after which something went wrong, in a sense that Sollecito with every probability also intervened and the two began to make advances which the girl refused.
"She was then threatened with a knife, the knife which Sollecito general carried with him and which was used to strike Meredith in the neck.
"The three realising what had happened quickly left the house, creating a mess with the intention of simulating a break in, spreading blood everywhere and in an attempt to clean up left drops of blood in the bath on the ground and in the sink.
To which is added THE NEW DETAILS that:"The fact that Meredith was a victim of violence is evident from the state in which her body was found, there were bruises, particularly as mentioned in Dr Lalli's report where there is evidence of bruising with dark areas on the lips, and also on the gums of the left cheek and chin..." which is obviously a very highlighted summary of part of Dr. Lalli's autopsy report. Dr. Lalli may or may not have drawn conclusions as to the cause; likely didn't, Judge cites none. This is first time that specifics of the violence Meredith suffered have been even partially presented. The question remains is this all of it, which would be congruent with Meredith being stricken about the face with a hand. I would suspect more parts to be translated & updated online.
Here's the url that contains the rumor about the old lady and the phone. They appear to be updating this article. I notice they've added more alleged information.
[It was Meredith's lost mobile that led police to her body after they got a complaint from an elderly woman that she had received a threatening call from the phone.
When officers arrived to investigate they found the mobile dumped in the pensioner's garden not far from where Meredith lived.
After tracing her address they arrived at the house she shared with other students just as her housemates had discovered the trail of blood to her door.]
This part I haven't seen before:
[ It emerged that they also found a SECOND phone near her body as they try to trace an Italian boy she had been seeing and a missing key to her bedroom door.]
http://tinyurl.com/3cx96r
I am surprised that they release so much information, TBH. Does anyone know what the rules on sub judice are in Italy?
To Damian, I believe, but perhaps it was Rob: way above one of you stated she slowly bled to death. I pointed out that the LE had used the phrase "throat cut" and that therefore the major artery had to have been involved & so death was quickish.
Well, it seems that the ILE allowed themselves to be "mis-translated" as it were. [How about that.] The prelim Judge states that indeed Meredith's death "was probably agonizingly slow."
According to the pathologist who examined Meredith's body it is believed that she died due to a "haemorrhage from a neck wound after the blow of a sharp and pointed weapon."
The report says: "Bruises and lesions found on the neck suggest that Meredith was held by the neck leaving brusing compatible with the pressure of fingers and subsequently threatened with a knife held to her throat sufficent to leave other small wounds beyond those which determined death."
The pathologist's report shows that because the knife did not hit the carotide artery, her death was probably agonisingly slow and that she was stabbed at some time between 9.30pm and 11.30pm.
Wherever you picked up that bit of info, whichever one of you it was, you were correct. Parsing out what parts of leaked information are wholly accurate is always an adventure in this blogging world.
Still, it means that those who were there looked on as an at least semi-conscious Meredith bled seepingly onto the pillow and the bed clothes -- and did nothing for as long as it took. Might not even have noticed at first as they continued their sexual assault. And Amanda places herself in the house at that time.
Right now, I leaning to A framing PL, with RS in only on the cover-up. For me, now, its Amanda and Mr. X with her too many tokes over the line fer shure her judgment & humanity totally fled. Mr. X then says "we've got to cover this up."
A's write-up for her lawyer better be a Ph.D. level production, that's also fer shure.
I don't really buy that Meredith had consensual sex with Patrick. Just a gut feeling. It would be difficult to prove either way, though -- look at how many living sexual assault victims can't prove lack of consent.
Also, I recall that somewhere above it was mentioned that there were no signs of (forcible) rape. Does that necessarily mean she wasn't raped (although apparently other sexual contact occurred) or does it mean there were no SIGNS (lacerations, etc.)???
I don't think there is a Mr. X involved in the crime. The accused would have ratted out anyone else by now to deflect the blame.
I am not convinced that PL was involved, but the fact that he changed his cell phone the day after Nov 2 does raise serious suspicions.
I feel relatively certain that AK and RS were there and were involved in the sexual assault and murder. I think they were both probably so drugged up that they were killing her.
I still have some doubts that PL was there, but parts of his story don't add up: he says the bar was open, but someone testified it was closed; he first said he didn't know MK, but then confesses he did know her; changing his cell phone the day after the murder.
There are numerous conflicting reports of the Italian Judge's prelim all over the internet (Italian, English, and American newspapers and online sources) but it makes one wish there really was a CSI-Roma or something. With all the physical evidence at this time they have no physical evidence in the death room for Lumumba? One bloddy foot print from under the duvet that is consistent with a shoe of RS. Knife has been reported as both bloody and not bloody? Fingerprint (sometimes fingerprints) of AK on Ms face. If I was an American defense attorney representing any of the suspects in an American court I wouldn't feel too bad about the state of my defense at this time. The wierd text message (Meredith will die today or tomorrow)is totally unsubstantiated (and was deleted by the recipient in Rome). They (IP) bought themselves a year to do the work but we Americans like our murder mysteries wrapped up in one hour without too many commercials. AKs minimum year in jail may help her memory some though. Also the computer forensics on RS computer will show some but I have done some of that kind of forensics (not for a murder case) and it is more complex and fraught with error than you might think.
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer had a short piece up again today with comments. Unlike the other day, these are much more civil and really very interesting if you have the time. Both locals, euros, Italians back & forth, some one who's delved into the English version of Italian interrogation procedure, and of course though people who know and Like this comment section, more will likely get added.
http://tinyurl.com/2ks9vv
I agree kat.
Would the police still be holding Patrick if there wasn't any evidence he'd been there? It seems unlikely, but not to be excluded.
Damian, not off track at all! Its very good for all "foreigners" to better understand the reality "on the ground". One Seattle PI poster explained the difference between the locals & the carabinieri -- and so I can understand RS calling his sister first & not just because she is his sister. So sorry to hear about your attack and the System's utter failure. To have a "Sunset Law" on doing a crime! Egads. At least here, you'd get a chance to file a civil suit for damages, if not criminal action. (And that's recently happened even in a Mass. murder investigation -- the family decided the DA was taking much too long, filed & won judgement, but that folded the DA's investigation. I'm waiting for this fellow's new girl friend to turn up dead, and the DA may be too.)
Looking at what Amanda Knox said again, every sentence she spoke, if true, has a red flags which together strongly hint at deception.
I write about it here for those of you who are interested:
http://tinyurl.com/2lnmh4
hey, randomguy, succinct post #64202 at
http://tinyurl.com/2am29c
if that's you.
also, in fairness, see post #64281 by someone who says he was there the night the YouTurbe video was made and who makes a strong defense of the kind of person he/she knew.
Which is the core of the story: how could two such people, A & Meredith, cross paths so disastrously?
and I think post #64723 nails some of the issues around the LE investigation, such as A's two confessions being as the Judge noted made at around 11:30 pm and then at about 5:40 am the next mronging, strongly suggesting she was kept up all night -- classic breakdown tech nique.
And then this commenter adds a point we've not considered here: these suspects were not afforded the presence of an attorney prior to questioning by police, nor was Amanda probably informed of her rights under international law to have a US Consular offical present during questioning (which, FYI, makes any statement she may have made to police non-admissable UNLESS a consular offical were present.)
Is this true? Having read it, something nags at me that it could be, but under Italian law or treaty with US is it??? Certainly, the Judge didn't treat it so, so commenter was wrong?
Very nice run of comments there.
I would like to shag Amanda...
Thanx Robert.
...another little pecularity in Italy is that if you committed a crime more than ten years ago, you can't be prosecuted. Berlusconi changed the laws to save the co-founder of his political party, who is mafioso...
More 'on the ground' stuff that i think may be relevant. Immigration here, is a relatively new phenomeon, and like most things in Italy, is pretty much uncontrolled. 95% of italians,(or certainly here in Perugia), when they see an Afican, for example, think that they are either a prostitute or a drug-dealer. Unfortunately, more often than not, they are right. There aren't any black doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians etc in Italy. After the killing in Rome 3 weeks ago, and the current climate of xenophobia and with the proposals for mass deportations, the national press and the right were delighted when a congolese man was arrested for this murder.
I don't know if any of this is directly relevant to this case, but it gives a little of the backdrop to what's going on. Again..if there's proof Patrick was in the house, its all over.
amanda writes all the time in prison and asked for a dictionary
raffaele looked confused today and asked when he could speak with his father, to have products to clean his cell and to have access to the library
patrick said to be missing his family, music and his bar; he said that he was treated well
Damian, In AKs testimony so far, she has placed the blame on PL, even saying he was in MKs room when she screamed. The police couldnt possibly let him go just inn case she is telling the truth. They might have strong doubts about teh truth, but until they can officially rule it out he will have to stay in custody. If innocent (and not even there) he will be able to demonstrate this with the DNA results, but I don;t expect these will be ready for some time. While there is a reasonable level of suspicion that this man is a dangerous, murdering sex attacker, he will have to stay behind bars.
I'm not quite sure which story (ones that even come out yet) to believe. I don't believe all three of them intended to murder her. At least one of them was just in it for a bit of an orgy, got shocked when one (or both) of the others got carried away, and is not saying anything/confusing the story because they are afraid of being implicated because they were there and involved in the actual sex act. Possibly even willingly raping her, drunkenly believing it to be just a rough sex fantasy (but with no intent to pull a knife and killl her).
I might be wrong, but (regardless of the text message) I can't see all three of them conspiring to kill her. Maybe a couple got carried away and they are in the sh*t and they know it. I think these two are deeply shocked by the other pulling the knife.
Does anyone know if the text was sent in italian or english? Was the recipient english or italian, and did the speak the language that the message came in? If someone sent me a message in italian saying "tonight or tomorrow meredith is dead", i hate to admit i wouldnt know what it said. Is there any possibility that anything is lost in translation here? No chance of anyone saying something like "tonight she's going to 'get it'", or anything like that?
If PLs DNA doesnt show up, then the lovebirds have decided to frame him...I wonder why?
I heard that A's lawyer claimed that her first interview with the police is inadmissable because she didn't have an interpreter. My girlfriend tells me this is never usually a problem here though...
Thanx Joanne...now I get it.
about the message...if its genuine(!!!!) its definitely been translated from Italian, but I don't know if it was sent in english by an italian, or translated literally for the english-speaking press
Even if it's inadmissible (which would obviously affect a trial), her partial confession will have provided them with a good starting point and an insight into who she is and how she feels about others.
For the police operation of building a case, this is much better than starting with her exercising her rights to silence.
What's the general mood in Perugia Damian? Everyone must be talking about this all the time, what are people who are connected to them saying?
It is clear there will be twists and turns in the evidence (more to come) some backtracking on IP assumptions etc. and it will generate lots of press but I am more interested in the psychological synergy between RS and AK. I have been trying to find out (to no avail) what "disturbance" AK was involved in at Seattle Prep which resulted in a $269 fine and a how it relates to her Facebook comment of her lack of embarassment and lack of social inhibitions.
I also read RS had a blog entry about seeking extreme sensation through sex...it is beginning to seem like a Starkweather-Fugate type of situation where the syngery between their pre-disposition to sociopathic behavior (fueled by drugs and alcohol and sex) resulted in this murder.
There is also this prep school arrogance and this fantastical element on both RSs and AKs part. Forgive me poor Harry Potter, but look at RS dress in photos prior to his arrest and AK reading Potter books (in three different languages!) That smacks of some sort of Leopold & Loeb crime but perhaps without the same degree of calculation.
Dear Eyes for Lies, I ead your post and this is what I posted over there:
re conclusion for no.1 "There is a contradiction." Uh, no, there is no contradiction, quoting your quote: "Patrick and Meredith were in Meredith's room while I stayed in the kitchen." Amanda specifically says Meredith is in her own room, not say in Amanda's room. She locates Meredith speficially in the statement. If you meant something else, you should correct your phraseology.
Now you might ask what were they all doing before this split-off, but as we don't have the FULL, carefully translated text, because this is an English statement translated into Italian and then translated back, we can't be sure of suggested times, locations and sequences.
All that you can be sure of is that Amanda does place herself in the house when Meredith is murdered.
The other point about the confessions is that as the Judge notes in her report, one was made at about 11:30 pm and the other at about 5:30 am of the same night. Whatever the validity based on physical evidence, these "confessions" were made to the Italian police who were using classic breakdown techniques, and so on that basis are more than a bit suspect. As is the way a person being subject to such an interrogation--ie being kept up all night by teams of interrogators--might respond. As your brain goes foggy you start to resort to phrases as if they are hand rails. So your conclusions as to her various qualified statements are subject to the conditions under which they were made.
NOW, if she had made this kind of statement in mid-afternoon after a full night's sleep, then your parsing of what you see as weasel phrases might have more validity.
Finally, that was a sneaky way to market your "abilities", wasn't it?
Can't believe Italian lawyer is not advising AK to not to write anything in prison. I know it can be seized here in an American prisons and assume they are just letting her scribble away and then they will sieze it.
I may be able to help to explain specific passages of the judges 'ordinanza'...if you want. even if translating is always a tricky business. If the other italian speakers are around, maybe we could do bits together?
Amanda has sold to The Sun a jail diary
Don't believe that for one second. This blog has been pleasantly free of trolls, snarky comments and outright deceptions, hope it can stay that way.
Joanne. People who know Patrick are convinced he isn't involved, but it must be the same for relatives of the other suspects. But here there are hundreds and hundreds of people who don't believe it, people from all walks of life....we'll see.
don't feed the trolls!
Robert M -- You pointed out that what I wrote for No. 1 (on my blog post about Amanda Knox) made no sense. I said that Knox didn't account for Meredith that night. Obviously that was a typographical oversight as Knox's statement is clear about that.
Knox did refer to Meredith in her statement in general terms, but not in the account of her story told by the press(if it is true). I have corrected that (for future readers). My apologies and thanks for pointing that out!
I went under the assumption that Knox's statement was made in English and never translated. If it has been translated back and forth, then it is USELESS and I make no opinion whatsoever. You make a good observation here. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, people tire under stressful interrogations. No doubt, but there is too much here to write off. Too many oddities in use of words. I still stand by that.
May I ask what you mean by your statement: "Finally, that was a sneaky way to market your "abilities", wasn't it? "
What are you referring to? If you are referring to the fact that in my earlier comment I wrote if you want to see my opinion, click this link -- than I don't see how that is sneaky. It is as up front as one can get. Sneaky is not a fair assessment.
Seattleite!!! Sorry but I beat you to that Harry Potter look a like thing with RS up near the top of these posts. I don't think its just a coincidence, especially when she rather quickly found out he was 24 and "edgy" underneath, as she might dream Dan Radcliffe is. Google Harry Potter fanfic to get a sense of the outre & sometimes well-written stuff that's posted.
As to the dorm incident, its partially explained by one of the early posters at the Seattle PI link above, as in "she got the fine because she was the one to go out and talk to the neighbor about the noise [implying the other partiers weren't going to step forward]." This person claims A wasn't drinking at all. For that poster, its a sign of Amanda's sense of responsibility. Having been a dorm head resident waaaaay back when you could be 18 to drink, sometimes you just had to fine/charge someone to get the point across. And the biggest tokers then were also the hardest drinkers and yet were the ones I could count on for dorm spirit stuff & follow through. Keep googling around. Another poster says the UK reporters are chasing every contact of hers they can for background & juicy bits.
Methinks you are pushing the Starweather-Fugate thing a little hard. That took sometime to develop, ripen as it were. IF RS was really there (I have my doubts), the whole thing is definitely fueled by drugs & drink but is very spur of the moment escalation, wrong but not psychopathological as we've been using the term here.
As in, I was wrong to be that drunk and not know it while I was driving a VW bug full of friends around New Haven after a wedding reception [the BEST champagne!!!]. But I was not exhibiting psychopathological behavior. That I compounded it by continuing to drive after I realized it, my excuse to myself being that everyone else in the car was more drunk than I was, does not move the initial act into psychopathology. (And yes I got to where we were going and then refused to move for more than several hours & ate & ate & ate.) Of course, if I'd hit anything and someone had died, it still would have been vehicular homicide which was treated then as involuntary manslaughter. A stupid stupid mistake then but not one caused by psychopathology.
Still, you are correct that there's a dynamic between the two, which makes PL the odd person out in this story.
By the way, did anyone see that photo of the bloody fingers on the wall of Meredith's bedroom that New of the World had up? See pinecone's last post above for the link. She was herself asking about the second cell phone. The picture captures the hard reality of what we are all talking about.
Eyes for Lies, thank you for follow-up. Given that forthrightness and your changes thereof, I will withdrew my last line above. I suspect I was expecting a much longer, word by word textual forensic effort. My apologies.
Amanda declared that she's thinking of a career as porn actress
Thanks Robert...You are on it. I will go back and read earliers. PL receipts from the bar do not provide ironclad alibi and I have this sense of RS and AK playing PL for what they want to do and PL playing them for what he wants to do but I also see a timeline where he could have left before the murder...DNA has not been reported as of this time to my knowledge.
re Capanne Prison where all three are being held--one journalist's experience there & his experience with Italian Justice overall is highlighted at:
http://tinyurl.com/2vvmgj
Robert M -- You pointed out that what I wrote for No. 1 (on my blog post about Amanda Knox) made no sense. I said that Knox didn't account for Meredith that night. Obviously that was a typographical oversight as Knox's statement is clear about that.
Knox did refer to Meredith in her statement in general terms, but not in the account of her story told by the press(if it is true). I have corrected that (for future readers). My apologies and thanks for pointing that out!
I went under the assumption that Knox's statement was made in English and never translated. If it has been translated back and forth, then it is USELESS and I make no opinion whatsoever. You make a good observation here. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, people tire under stressful interrogations. No doubt, but there is too much here to write off. Too many oddities in use of words. I still stand by that.
May I ask what you mean by your statement: "Finally, that was a sneaky way to market your "abilities", wasn't it? "
What are you referring to? If you are referring to the fact that in my earlier comment I wrote if you want to see my opinion, click this link -- than I don't see how that is sneaky. It is as up front as one can get. Sneaky is not a fair assessment.
Thank you, too, Robert M. for pointing out what you did. Cheers!
> On another note, I speak Italian, and I read in the Italian press that the
> bodily residue that was found on her body was not semen but it did imply
> sexual activity. Was it pubic hair or saliva then? I would guess pubic hair.
Or vaginal secretions from Foxy, perhaps?
When tests are back on ALL the phsyical evidence, the ILE will get the word out especially if its more damaging to A. That's just how they are operating on this case.
To Seattleite, as above I think the lawyer needs her side of the story. His proficiency in English is unknown. He needs a hard copy of her narrative to work from. Normally, I would assume he'd just take notes but it may make more sense for her to write something up & then go over it. Also, writing seems to be her default mode. Also, as she has no internet access, there are all those people she's been keeping up with online; now its got to be pencil & paper. Her immediate family also.
And wouldn't you just love to sit in on that Mother-Daughter meeting tomorrow (saturday)?
Hmmm ... the Torygraph has printed the number of the mobile in the old lady's garden:
+39 0348 467 3711
I wonder if anyone'll answer ... ?
Thanks Robert...that may be the reason for all the writing (as well as her writing inclination) but that seems dangerous for her defense. If the attorney requested it for his use, I know that would be protected Attorney-Client privilege here, but I am completely ignorant of Italian law in that area. Or any area for that matter.
Re: mother-daughter meet...actually I wouldn't want to be there. I think it is going to be noisy: (weeping, gnashing of teeth) and I doubt she is going to tell her mother much. Mom's sole mission is to get her out of jail and out of the baliwick. That ain't going to happen. I read one of your earliest scenario posts and it rings true. I would now say the whole tragic mess is more The Sheltering Sky than In Cold Blood.
I've just read the judge's ordinanza in italian. Sorry if some of this is already known; i'm trying to get it straight in my head, as much as anything else.
1. P is 44, not 38.
2. He said his bar was open, but it was shut.
3. The morning after the crime, he changed his IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) Apparently every mobile has one, and you can change it, thus making it more difficult to be traced. (It adds a 14digit prefix to your number, which remains the same.
4. A and P spoke on the phone the day after. (P using his new code)
5. Specific details have been 'censored'. (In total, 1 out of 18 pages, comprising of various extracts) These extracts refer to evidence found on Meredith's body. The judge says that these proove there was a violent sexual assault, agaisnt Meredith's will, involving all three of the accused.
6. The motive for A and R was to share somekind of extreme experience. P used the situation to get the girl he was after, the girl that up until then had turned his advances down
E FATTO
Gesu cristo!
Robert. Ghirga, one of A's lawyers doesn't speak english. I don't know about the other one.
...I forgot something important from 3 above...P denied changing his IMEI to the judge.
seattlite, thanks. Which one? the first or the the step by step one, which is the one that I think would lead you to consider Sheltering Sky. A person puts themselves in a particular situation and stuff may or may not happen. (Yes, I was drunk re my story above, but, no, I did not have an accident. There but for...)
At the moment, I would substitute Mr. X for PL; as damian says, there are people willing to back PL directly & his lawyer hasn't had a chance to get organized & as I also noted I'd be surprised if ANY prelim judge released those arrested under a murder charge. (We of course use "bail hearings" to control the same situation.) I'm more dicey on RS.
Its just that having 5 people in that smallish room all at once (Meredith, A, RS, PL & Mr X) is just one person too many -- especially as the ILE seems to be leaking that so far they've got something on a Mr. X but so far no physical evidence against PL!!!! Leaking against their own argument to the judge!!!!!!
And I'm even willing to consider just Amanda & Mr. X.
But Amanda is always there in any scenario.
Which is the wall against which the "responsible" "caring" "I've trusted my life to her" TRUE THINGS about her comes to a smash-up. Because Meredith's dead is another TRUE THING.
I haven't commented on this case up till now...it's a very confusing and intriguing case. I have had a nagging feeling all along, however, that Amanda herself killed Meredith, perhaps after sex play with the guys went awry. Jealousy?
It will be interesting to see how the facts pan out on this case.
damian, thanks. If there's more, take your time. Do note that on RS as trepviosuly translated in UK papers, his knife was called "compatible" or we'd say "similar" to the type of knife BLADE that could inflict such wounds & the fatal one too. But similar ain't the same as its the murder weapon.
As to PL denying he'd changed his IMEI to the judge, that seems so bleedin' obvious to prove, why deny it? Why not say it went on the blink or something? I dropped it & it wouldn't work. (I don't do cell phones so beyond what I've learnt here, their operations are a mystery to me.) But do you think PL is THAT stupid? Maybe not sharpest but stupid?
Also the judge quoted one guy on the bar being closed. What if there are 4 others who'll swear it was open? I did see the receipt TIMES was an issue but as they were sometimes given in english hours and then in 24 hours, I got a little confused. But then there's the other workers and the other patrons to be interviewed--by the defense. I'm sure that local ILE thinks it needn't do more grunt work. Just wait for the lab work to be completed.
I've an itch that they are in for a surprise on that. Especially if they have announced evidence for a Mr. X.
And Sollecito Sr is lying on behalf of his son?? Wonder what RS's sister is up to on his behalf behind the scenes?
I see no reference in the judges report to the purported tapped phone statement of "I can't stand it anymore." Will that even be admissable, I wonder?
And reall, what is the narrative she'll give her lawyer, having out herslef inthe house in two statements?
I get back to the Mother-Daughter thing in that the lawyers will have to keep her apprised if she can't sit in on their meetings with Amanda. So what ever narrative/story A presents, she knows her mother will be in on it immediately. How will that effect her presentation, I wonder? Perhaps Mother will have the fortitude to cut through the normal barriers now--too much is at stake & she's had several days to get herself organized.
Putting myself in her mother's shoes calls up feelings of being entrapped very easily.
Robert: The step by step post. Very close to the tone of the crime...particulars are coming and going with the evidence or alleged evidence but I love the comment "A is always there." That's for certain. I didn't have RS in the room (and the bloody sneaker footprint as described is not hugely compelling unless they can show shoewear matches) but I think he was there. I think she has been covering for him "I can't do this anymore" comment.
The Sheltering Sky comment had to do with forms of dissonance encountered in travel and specifically (as the characters in the book experience) the unraveling of their adopted personalities until they are reduced to harsh, elemental reality.
It's all over. There is proof that all three of them particpated in the rape and were in the room when she was stabbed. All three of them then tried to make it look like something else. Then they locked her in her room and left her to die.
It's getting late here and I feel the same anger I felt 3 nights ago, writing the very same words.
It's enough.
DP yeah, the emphasis by the ILE on violent sexual play or perhaps better sexualized violence, would suggest, along with the multiple minor cuts on the kneck Dr Lalli references, that
EACH of the participants took turns with the knife.
Damian, I thought there were no DNA evidence of Patrick being in the room?
Robert M: Both A and Meredith crossed path because they were both looking for a place to stay. It was nothing but a stroke of luck really.
You know, I do really wonder who got Amanda involved in taking hash. Her boyfriend (he was a user too)? Would any of this have happened if she wasn't so out of control through heavy dependency on alcohol and drugs. To me, clearly she was spiralling out of control and out of her depth.
Amanda Knox, a girl out of control:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2844000.ece
Interesting article Random Guy. The witness accounts of a girl capable of extreme jealousy and rage are very telling.
That article is interesting Random Guy ... yet full of prejudice. But I think it can give a hint of what happened in the girls (Amanda) mind when she travelled to Europe:
"something happened to her in those three months, according to people within the university community of the Umbrian hill town. At some point, apparently quite early on in her stay, she lost control."
Think of it and read her blog again, especially about the time prior to Italy when she was in Germany. Remember her comments who boring it was for her to work in the Bundestag (german government) ... a job usually interesting.
Europe wasn't the sensation she probably thaught it was. I can't say this for sure because Im european but there is something similar for us with the US.
Then the alcohol came and the drugs and maybe the wrong persons. Its pretty hard to get real friends in european countries especially in such a short time. Maybe she misinterpreted some people.
What do US americans actually think when they come to Europe? I really want to know.
I still believe RS is innocent. I think he knew nothing about the murder until Amanda rushed back to his apartment with her tale of blood in the hallway. He phoned his sister as soon as he realized there was a serious problem. I think he'd have called her earlier if he'd known about the crime.
I don't have faith in the Italian justice system. They're on par with Aruba. What kind of system allows judges to hypothesize as to motives and alleged evidence in an ongoing murder investigation? I think the violent orgy theory is merely a convenient way to place all the suspects in the room.
This case is being tried in the press. I hope the accused can afford decent lawyers because it looks like they won't get a fair hearing otherwise.
Deepen: I think it depends on age more than nationality although I would be glad to write a screed about the over educated, underweight, self-help book toting, fuzzy thinking, emo emoting, well-to-do people in the city I live in. I lived in Paris for over a year many years ago and didn't have any problems at all. But I was in my late twenties and in business and was surrounded by professional people most of time I was there.
Young Americans are in a bubble of their frame of reference and they take it with them wherever they go. They intuit that blue passport will get them out of trouble rather than make them a target. Wrong as they are. I have come to believe most people in their teens or thereabouts are basically clinically insane anyway. Just lack of real world experience.
You see it in the Spring Break incidents etc. They are have been raised in neighborhoods where the idea of crime is minor vandalism and being caught with bud. Put them in the "real world" which is most of the world and they are what they are: children.
I have seen the same thing with teens of other nationalities staying with friends' families over here. It's that here about the worst you can do is wreck the car and hopefully not kill someone in the process.
RS may be innocent of murder but not innocent of being impicated in this crime seeing that his knife has been identified as the murder weapon; the footprints on the blood in the room matching his Nike trainers and of course by his own admission, blatantly lying because Amanda supposely asked him to.
Some people have commented on how could he have been so stupid as to have the murder weapon on him. I don't think he had the time to dispose of it since the police caught him and Amanda off-guard by unexpectedly getting to the house. The judge's report claims that RS and Amanda never called the police until AFTER the police had arrived:
"In the first place, when it comes to these two, it has been shown that despite their affirmations to the Postal Police, it is not true that they had called 112 for the intervention of the Carabinieri military police, thinking that they had suffered a blow.
In fact, from our investigation it emerged that the Postal Police arrived at 12.35 while the call to 112 came at 12.51 and 12.54, circumstances that suggest a conduct that they wished it to be thought they had been surprised outside the building where the homicide was carried out."
Whoever killed Meredith didn't do much to get rid of the evidence - like the phones. Now the knife. This would make sense if the killer was highly intoxicated through alcohol and drugs (unable to think things through clearly and dispose of the evidence). RS and AK were definitely on drugs and possibly alcohol.
Thanks for your impression seattleite. I think you are very right.
Amanda actually had a good idea: she didn't come to Perugia on a one-day trip. She wanted to dive right into the so-called italian lifestyle. I remember reading she was impressed how much time there was for lunch, time she probably didn't have at home.
I can confirm - it is fascinating to feel like you are living it.
Its probably like seeing a rock star and thinking: thats what I want to be ... this is the way I want live ... maybe this was a feeling of her.
For those interested here is the birds eye view of the "horror house" from Live Maps:
http://maps.live.com/default.asp...25785&
encType=1
Neither can I see the basketball court "haunted by drug addicts", nor the "grim" park she had to go through.
I think D.P. hit the nail on the head. American girl has rather good looking boyfriend - wants to fulfill his fantasy - gets jealous & kills or is just there while boyfriend kills as part of fantasy. Like the newly married couple who killed her sister for his sexual fantasy. Boyfriend thinks rich dad will get him off.
Deepen: You are on to a line of inquiry that I think has been overlooked. This is a little theoretical but bear with me.
I read a piece (I will try to find it) from a former Erasmus student describing the social hierarchy of Perugia and how most of the people, the Italians, tones would want to get to know, will not have anything to do with the American students, or the bar/scene people.
Now, by any standard, there was something wrong with Amanda (the thrill seeking stuff) but add the rejection (I have sensed it on occassion when taveling abroad--Americans are always mystified by that) along with the drug and alcohol use she most have felt the ultimate outsider.
No mistake that she set up a "domestic" situation immediately and then went out and hung with the people that paid attention to her.
By the way, the story here makes the news but I wouldn't call it a "big" story. It doesn't lead.
http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/
...icle2834591.ece
Another British students recollections of a stay in Perugia.
Yeah seattleite, I remember reading some news reports focusing on that. Apparently in Perugia, because of its long tradition as an international student town, groups of certain people have been build, all with their own bars and clubs. So Americans stay with Americans etc. etc. I almost sure she got in contact, but I'm not sure if she really liked to be surrounded by fellow americans. Maybe she wanted to experience something new in terms of other peoples thoughts.
This would explain why she got herself an italian boyfriend. Its somehow strange though. From my visits in Italy I've got the impression that a): italian men are pretty aggressive when it comes to girlfriends, and b): that italian men usually don't take foreigners as their girlfriends.
Italy is very christian, especially in small towns.
From what I have seen on TV this couple looked somehow "lovely". It seemed they were in their own cosmos.
But having an italian boyfriend somehow contradicts the outsider theory. She probably would have been introduced to la familia, and therefore would have gotten new friends.
I guess that what I was thinking of the "own cosmos" thing--though their own cosmos looks similar to hell. I was angling for the theory that with this "cosmos" of RS and AK, in this environment (Perugia as it is for Americans who think of it somehow as an extended Disneyland with drugs) is a big part of the story of this crime. That this crime could not have happened without this combination. AK would not have ever done this or been in this involvment without RS, RS would not have instigated? been involved with this without AK and Meredith would not be dead.
Its annoying to hear from other forums that Amanda couldn't be involved b/c shes such a nice, loving girl. History shows that extreme violence is very possible in a group setting among individuals who might not have otherwise acted alone. In these cases, theres most likely a leader and the others follow along. I keep hearing about how A & P are such nice ppl but I've heard nothing of the personality of R. I would presume that R was the leader (as he had the alleged murder weapon and expressed an interest in extreme sex) and the others played along. Its very possible that P might have left before the murder but engaged in the sexual violence. Perhaps when he saw things were getting out of control, he decided to leave & head to the bar. Perhaps when the knife was held up to M's neck it accidentally poked her as she was fighting off her attackers. A & R, panicked & concluded that if they left her alive, she'd go to the police, so in their minds they had to kill her, thus the reason for the other 2 stab wounds.
Do you think Amanda has read The Secret History by Donna Tartt? I can't remember the plot exactly but I am sure that there are similarities?
Hmm... theres actually no evidence Lumumba had anything to do with it:
"Of 120 useful fingerprints and other samples, 40 belonged to flatmates or regular visitors to the house, while the remaining 80 came from “unknown individualsâ€, police said. None belonged to Lumumba."
"The same paper also reported initial results from police scientists showed no evidence that Lumumba was in Meredith’s room."
Zues: I took a quick glance at AKs my space "likes" page before they took it private and I sort of got the sense of a pretty mid-brow person. Tartt's book is old for someone her age and hardly a classic. People who like Henry Potter prob not into The Secret History or Less Than Zero, or American Psycho or the movie The River. I do not see any pre-meditation regarding murder in this crime anyway.
I find the text message received by the shop assistant in Rome to make things even more curious- could it just be a coincidence, or a sign the murder was premeditated?
I also read that police discovered mobile phone traffic between AK and RS was very high that night, which doesn't make sense if AK returned to his house to sleep. Why would they need to text each other if they were with each other throughout the night?
This is such a tragic thing to happen, and very difficult to separate the facts from the speculation.
Seattleitte,
I disagree.
A lot of these books have acquired a cult status and therefore become 'cool' to read.
At that age a lot of your genre choices in regard to reading material, movies, music etc is about standing out and appearing to be 'deep'.
I believe this is the impression Amanda was trying to make with her writing.
I know for a fact that here in Australia where I live it was pretty cool to have been able to say you had read "American Psycho' when I was 19/20 yrs old.
Probably more so now as the book has been banned here.
JMO
I just thought of it and am not sure if it has already been mentioned...
Where were the other flatmates?
I know there were at least 3 maybe four.
Was this premeditated? On a night when there would be no one else in the flat?
Makes the text message seem much more likely IMO.
Also, I read Meredith was to be flying home the next morning. Maybe they thought they could buy some time as she wouldn't be contacting anyone while she was travelling.
I know there were at least 3 maybe four
I meant three or four of them living in the house....
JMO: Not trying to be snarky but I must disagree right back at ya. Look at her myspace pages as immortalized in the Seattle Crime Blog. Tell me this person ever read or even knew about Donna Tartt. http://www.seattlecrimeblog.com/...x-suspect/
#more
Today there'll be a demonstration in Perugia. A month ago, a man was arrested for cultivating marijuana. He was held at Capanne prison (where A, R and P are now) for two days and on 14th October died in his cell from injuries received during a brutal police beating. Dark days indeed for Perugia
Last night here, every tv channel was talking about the Meredith case. Journalists tracked down 'Uzi', mentioned in the judge's report as a witness for P. He said the police have not spoken to him yet, that he knows P and that he saw him that night in his bar. However....he can't remember what time it was, maybe before dinner, maybe after....he says P was talking to an oldish man (the Prof) about congolese politics. He stayed for half an hour (ish) and left. He can't remember when. The first receipt on P's till that night was at 10:29pm...
It seems to me there were three assailants - Knox, Sollecito, and an unknown third person (probably a friend of Sollecito).
All three decided after the murder to incriminate Lumumba. Knox may even have started to incriminate him BEFORE the murder.
I would not be surprised to hear that the ominous text message received by the Italian shop assistant came from Lumumba's cell phone. But KNOX had sent it, not Lumumba. (Working at his bar, she could easily have gained access to his phone.) If this is what happened, then it looks particularly bad for Knox (Premeditation). The motive: After Lumumba spurned Knox and showed more interest in Meredith, Knox decided to seek revenge against them both - the death of Meredith + the incrimination of Lumumba.
Andy...I think it's plausible that Knox and Sollecito are trying to incriminate Lumumba...but why is Lumumba lying???
I think the text message is a red herring
Seattleite,
I have read her blog and I didn't mean that I specifically thought that she had read Donna Tartt or that her taste in fiction was an indicator of possible premeditation.
I meant that I didn't believe appearing to be 'mid brow' means your taste in literature may not be broad.
Being a Harry Potter fan does not mean you would not delve into the dark side of fiction.
I am a case in point as is our illustrious leader Mr Huff.
P.S it's Frangi
JMO = just my opinion
People here are talking about the fourth man again...fingerprints on pillow, man in laundrette the morning after with A.
Maybe I was wrong...
Also read somewhere that people witnessed a North African man washing clothes/sneakers at a nearby laundrette. He was seen with a girl who was a foreigner...has anyone read whether this girl was confirmed to be Knox?
Damian, I am also confused as to why Lumumba lied about the time he was in the shop and also about changing his cell phone. If he was completely innocent, why would he lie about this?
The police seem to be quite certain all three were somehow involved- but then again, hard to tell if thats the police, or just the media..
The lack of Lumumba DNA is very interesting. Is there anyway someone can be a location without leaving any DNA behind. Maybe Patrick didnt enter the house so his DNA wouldnt be there.
Is there a possiblity Meredith was sexually assaulted elsewhere ?
I have never believed Amanda version of events. As time has gone on it seems like she was young woman who had spiralled out of control.
There isnt much info on RS, its seems like his friends are keeping their mouths shut tight. Does anyone know if he is a loner?
Does anyone know if he spoke to his father on a mobile or a landline at 23:00? Does anyone know what RS sister job is within the police force?
RS doesnt seem incrediably bothered about lying to police. He seems to act like someone who thinks they will get off scot free
The translation is really making a difference here. I can see why Eyes for Lies thought Amanda's phrasing was incredibly unnatural - but I'm almost positive this is the result of two-way translation. I went to an international school in Italy where we all spoke a mixture of English and Italian, and I'm very used to the linguistic patterns created by semi-correct translation between the two. (The Italians here will know what I mean...it took me years after I moved away to stop using 'In fact' in the same way as 'Infatti'!)
That supposed text message, for example - 'For me, Meredith dies' etc - I'm willing to bet that it was in Italian and said 'Per me,' which translates better as 'As far as I'm concerned' than as 'For me'.
P.S. And IMO, this more or less rules out the possibility that AndyT suggested - that Amanda sent the text message from Lumumba's phone. Like I said, I'm pretty much positive that message (if it actually existed) was in colloquial Italian, and I don't get the sense she was that fluent.
Does anyone remember, years ago, there was a big hoo-ha when some newspaper or magazine reported that Gerard Depardieu had admitted taking part in a rape when he was a kid? It turned out that the original interview was in French, and the word he had used was 'assiste'' - which means 'witnessed'. Someone mistranslated it as 'participated'.
That's the level to which the language barrier can skew things.
I read reports confirming a sighting of A with another man in the laundrette the morning after the murder...I can't do any better than that I'm afraid hmmm.
Missy... Sollecito's friends at onaosi (an organisation which helps the orphans of doctors. R's mother is dead.) yesterday made public a letter they have written together. It was read aloud yesterday on italian tv, the friend had his back turned to the camera, his face was not visible. According to the letter, he's a lovely bloke etc.
A's mother visited her daughter this morning...she arrived and left in great secrecy. R' father also visited the prison this morning...he told journalists that his sons knife collection was a hobby.
There was no phone call between father and son that night. It was a lie.
His sister is a carabinieri officer.
R's father said that his son was 'serene'. That he has never been in Meredith's room, and that he had been seeing A for a few days. When asked about his son's knife collection, he said that everyone has a hobby; he, for example, collects guns 'and other things'.
A's mother was accompanied by another woman and avoided contact with the journalists.
...and another thing...R is also writing in his cell. His father says he's writing numerous letters, that he can't send, to his family and friends, telling them how serene he is feeling.
In AK's myspace blog she mentions a north african (algerian) who works at the bar and is always trying to dance with her. My guess is this is the man who was in Meredith's room that night. he also matches the description of the guy in the laundromat (a north african). Congolese people are very black, PL would not be mistaken for a north african, especially in italy! Find this guy, who supposedly worked with PL, and you've got the missing murderer. he probably threatened AK very effectively to implicate PL instead.
Wow you're taking a large leap in logic with that statement. Just b/c she knows another black man doesn't mean hes the murderer, geez the generalizations ppl come to is astounding. He matches the description just b/c hes black? *rolling eyes* And in her blog it didn't say that he was "trying to always" dance with her, it said that hes such a good dancer and he dances with her in spite of her not being as good as she is.
as i recall the laundrette story was about 'a woman' seen with a 'north african looking man'. no statement or suggestion that this woman was foreign or A
its really apparent how things get out of hand when disinformation is always typed up for all to read
With all the media speculation/? disinformation, how could a conviction be secured? Even if it went to trial, their defence lawyers could justifiably claim the impossibility of a fair trial, surely? Ditto, the McCanns?
Zeus...there is no jury.
Frangi:
There were 4 female housemates named in the official judge's report: Filomena Romanelli (probably the 'Molly' mentioned in Amanda's blog), who is named in the official judge's report, and in whose name was registered the sim card from the Italian mobile phone used by Meredith); Laura Mezzetti, Amanda Marie Knox and Meredith Kercher. The two Italian girls were working rather than studying, according to Amanda's blog. Amanda and Meredith were both students (not clear whether they were enrolled at the University of Perugia itself or at Perugia 'University for Foreigners'- the media reporting has been a bit sloppy on this).
Its been implied that the two Italian girls were away at the time of the murder- has anyone else seen anything clearer on whether this is true? The official report does say that Filomena arrived at 1pm and confirmed that nothing was missing from the apartment, as well as expressing concernt that both of the phones in Meredith's possession seemed to be off.
The house appears to have been split into two apartments with the four girls sharing the upper one and four young Italian men living downstairs-
Giacomo Silenzi, Marco Marzan, Stefano Bonassi and Riccardo Luciani. The report says that all four of these were away at the time. It appears that Meredith had started dating one of them (Silenzi) about three weeks earlier, and I'm sure I read somewhere that they had left the key to their apartment with Meredith (and wasn't blood found in the downstairs apartment too?).
There are extracts from the report in this telegraph article:
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
The FOURTH suspect has been caught on camera:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articl...how/
139821.html
Random guy...this fourth suspect, supposedly caught on camera, is Usi. P's forgerful witness I mentioned earlier. Too much of a coincidence?? We'll see if gets confirmed but it seems like a jouralist getting carried away...we'll see.
Damian, that's interesting. What did you read of Usi earlier? I must have missed it.
He's mentioned in the judges report. P. says Usi saw P in his bar that night. The police haven't spoken to him yet but journalists interviewed him.He says he did go to p's bar that night but he doesn't remember when. He seemed a little surprised that he had been mentioned by name.
Thanks for the link, RGIL.
So much for the veracity of Amanda Marie Knox, her statement that she held her fingers in her ears as Meredith Kercher screamed for her life.
So much for sensitivity towards others, eh? What used to be called the Golden Rule? Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
...I saw an interview with him...
Sounds like Patrick and Usi - both suspects - could be covering for each other. That is suspicious considering Usi was seen leaving Meredith's flat. I have just read this too. Looks like Usi could be lying.
"The man, a Congolese known only as 'Usi' appeared on Italian television last night and said he had spent the entire evening with Lumumba."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher110.xml
I hope the security camera footage is for real.
You're welcome, Emily.
Usi is the 'friend' who PL told police had come into his bar at around 8pm on the night in question and who formed part of his alibi- but its been reported that PL then had difficulty remembering a last name or any contact details for the guy. All that is reported by the media as being in the judge's official report too RGIL check out he telegraph article I linked a few posts above, lots of detailed info there. Very interesting indeed if 'Usi' is appearing now as the 'fourth suspect'! Could be extremely significant...or could be just what you say though damian, journalists do tend to get carried away at times, and more so at weekends...!
Random Guy...Usi said on Italian tv.'he had spent the entire evening with Lumumba' It's not your fault, but this is completely inaccurate. I saw the interview and he said what I have written before
erhw and damian: it will certainly be interesting to see what develops. I just hope none of it is misreporting.
For others reading this blog and haven't caught up, here's the summary of the new bit of news:
"A fourth man, thought to be a 'musician' from North Africa, was captured on security cameras walking hastily away from the 'house of horror' on the night the murder occurred.
The police believe he is the same man who was spotted in a nearby launderette the following day at 1.30pm, in the company of a young woman.
Witnesses said the man had acted 'strangely' and had bundled a large quantity of clothes and shoes into a washing machine."
He has been identified as "Usi".
Just noticed my above post may be confusing. To clarify, the man seen on the cameras has been identified as "Usi" but there hasn't yet been any confirmation he is the same person seen at the laundrette.
Wait, where do you read that this 'Uzi' man is the suspect? i've reread the article and it states that a fourth man was identified but it didn't say that it was Uzi. Uzi was mentioned later in the article as being the alibi for Patrick.
Gen, check post #34009 - you will see it in the link I posted.
...I agree Gen...I don't see mention of Usi being caught on security cameras. Certainly up until 24hrs ago, the police had not even interviewed Usi...strange if he's on film...Random Guy....why do you say Usi was caught on security cameras?
Damian, didn't you read that article I posted from the Earth Times (written by UPI) site in post #34009?
Here it is, directly from URI's site:
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top...ts_murder/7278/
Hi Frangi. It was late here when I read your post. Sorry. I don't think her myspace is definitive but you read the page (Imagined blog post: Hi Guys, just got done watching the Lion King for the tenth time and I am now going to settle down and re-read Brett Easton Ellis' paen to psychopathetic behavior.) As you can see from my posts I am interested in the various states of minds of the suspects and actors in this case, and I am just saying: AK may have translated sanskrit in her spare time for all I know, but "dark" or edgey books--there is not factural evidence of this from sources.
"young female students shouldn't be allowed to go abroad"
I am assuming this was intended as a joke? It might even work. Sort of sad to deny "young female students" their freedom of movement for their protection when they are sinned against more often than sinning, though. Maybe we should lock up all males, instead? (j/k)
Thanks Random Guy...got it.
...but it makes no sense. The police haven't spoken to Usi. Surely, if they had him on film, they would have at least questioned him?!?
But that said, you never know here...the forensics are going to get to work on the knife on Monday!!
seattleite: I agree with you in the sense that if AK had read The Secret History, I would have expected to see it mentioned. However.....
I am a bit confused that a person with a declared interest in creative writing would not have listed any books on her MySpace. Or any favourite authors. She lists enough films?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/
lo...995_knox10.html
This is the latest according to the Seattle PI. They've also put together a time line.
Strangely, in this article, Patrick is identified as one of the attackers...but last I heard they had no evidence he was ever in the room. Did I miss something while I was away?
The text message received in Rome two days before the murder went like this...'Per me domani o stasera Meredit (sic) muore' ...for me, tomorrow or tonight, Meredith dies. It was written in Italian and I presume, if this is accurate, that the police have found records of it...Meredith's name was spelt incorrectly...
I've always thought it was a red herring, and I still have my doubts, But how else could they know of the spelling mistake, if they hadn't found it?
Can anyone help out with how these things work?
Does anyone know anything more about the shop assitant who received it?
Damian, it isn't the police who have him on film but the Italian TV station according to the article. Sounds like he was being interviewed by TV reporters.
Yep, I hope the forensic team have a water tight case incriminating all those responsible - whoever they may be.
D.P. you're right, until now, there's no evidence P was in the room. (despite my late night confusion yesterday) However, from 6pm - 10-30pm, he has no witness's to coroborate his story...and he's been lying. But there's been no change on the proof front...
DP: I'm also finding that very confusing- there seem to be both reports that there is no evidence that PL was in the room, AND reports that the judge has accepted evidence that all three of the suspects currently in custody took part in the sexual assault and/or murder. Can anyone shed any more light on this? I know that one explanation is that the assault took place elsewhere, but I'm not convinced of that yet.
Ok, Thanks for clarifying, Damian. If the article is correct, ILE should be able to come up with some kind of physical evidence against Patrick if he was indeed in the room. Not to be crude, but a murderous rape is a messy crime and there should be traces of everyone involved in that room.
erhw...I'm not convinced the assault took place elsewhere, either. All reports indicate that the girl's apartment was very bloody, pointing towards the attack happening right there.
Just to clarify. Usi was interviewed yesterday on italian tv. (I saw it) He said he couldn't remember what time he had seen P in his bar that night. According to Usi, P was talking to another man about congolese politics. Usi stayed for half an hour and then left. When asked if it was before or after dinner, he said...'I'm not sure...this is the problem you see...I can't remember...but I think it was after...but I can't say what time.'
Random guy...so Usi being identified refers to this interview...not the security cameras near the scene of the crime?
Patrick is placed at the scene by Amanda. This may or may not be true. As for physical evidence the police will need to test for a DNA match and that is going to take several days. At best they could recognize pubic hair from someone of African descent, etc. It sounds like they found some spunk on the scene too. Not to mention all the shit in the toilet. Does DNA show up in feces?
Funny how Usi, Amanda and RS cannot remember much! Seems like they may all have agreed to come up with a story and have great trouble filling in the gaps.
Remember that RS (assuming he is telling the truth about this part) has already admitted Amanda told him to lie.
Kevin, yes DNA does show up in faeces. Check this:
http://www.forensic.gov.uk/foren....php?case=13&
y=
Patrick is placed at the scene by Amanda, but given her lying skills, I'm thinking ILE is going to want to place him there with physical evidence.
Kevin, I was thinking the same thing about hairs, fibers and such. Once the lab work is done, they may have more linkage.
RGIL was like:
> For others reading this blog and haven't caught up, here's the
> summary of the new bit of news:
>
> "A fourth man, thought to be a 'musician' from North Africa, was
> captured on security cameras walking hastily away from the 'house of
> horror' on the night the murder occurred.
>
> The police believe he is the same man who was spotted in a nearby
> launderette the following day at 1.30pm, in the company of a young woman.
>
> Witnesses said the man had acted 'strangely' and had bundled a large
> quantity of clothes and shoes into a washing machine."
>
> He has been identified as "Usi".
There appears to be a contradiction or some confusion here.
One news source, UPI, names the fourth suspect as Usi and states he is Congolese:
> A security camera near Kercher's flat identified the fourth suspect as
> a Congolese known only as "Usi" retreating from Kercher's flat shortly
> after the incident allegedly occurred.
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top...ts_murder/7278/
Meanwhile, the Torygraph asserts the fourth suspect is "North African":
> A fourth man, thought to be a "musician" from North Africa, was
> captured on security cameras walking hastily away from the "house of
> horror" on the night the murder occurred.
>
> The police believe he is the same man who was spotted in a nearby
> launderette the following day at 1.30pm, in the company of a young woman.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher110.xml
The Congolese are black Africans, North Africans are Moorish or levantine in appearance. The two types are quite distinct and one could not be mistaken for the other.
Thanks RGIL. Whoever had the nerve to take a massive dump after raping a dying girl is going to pay dearly.
Could it be this guy?
From the UPI
A security camera near Kercher's flat identified the fourth suspect as a Congolese known only as "Usi" retreating from Kercher's flat shortly after the incident allegedly occurred.
It kind of sucks for Patrick when the guy you were counting on for your alibi is caught on film fleeing the scene of the crime.
todger,
No one is ever going to confuse a Congolese for a North African. In fact North Africans look pretty much the same as Italians. Remember that Madeliene McCann sighting in Morocco. It turned out to be a local. That would have never happened in the Congo. But, since the UPI story is more detailed I would tend to believe it.
However if it ends up that there really was a North African involved and there is a mistake about "Uzi" then Amanda is seriously lying and perhaps Patrick could be innocent. We will have to wait and see.
DP was like:
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ lo...995_knox10.html
>
> This is the latest according to the Seattle PI. They've also put together
> a time line.
>
> Strangely, in this article, Patrick is identified as one of the
> attackers...but last I heard they had no evidence he was ever in the
> room. Did I miss something while I was away?
There seems to be some creativity in this article. This is the first article I've seen that provides details of the sexual activity; it states the dead girl was raped and buggered by one or both of the male suspects.
However, if this should prove to be the case, perhaps the unflushed material in the lavatory belonged to Kercher, and was passed after the buggery.
The timeline puts the time of death at "around 10 pm". Other things I have read put the time of the wounding between 9.30 pm - 11.30 pm, and the time of death as between 00.00 and 02.00.
Perhaps the journalist responsible for this can be asked to clarify the details and the timeline. Here's his email address:
levipulkkinen@seattlepi.com.
Seattleite (and Jackie):
I won't speculate about AK having read Donna Tartt, or any other author she hasn't mentioned- although I don't think a liking for the Lion King rules it out. What we do know for sure tho is that AK is a Harry Potter fan. There is a possible link between HP and 'darker' areas of the arts (and not the one (or the 'arts'!) the fundamentalists are forever shouting about!!). I think Robert M's ideas about a possible fascination with Harry Potter feeding in to an interest in Daniel Radcliffe are worth considering, especially in light of Sollecito's appearance being somewhat reminiscent of Radcliffe/Harry as a couple of posters have mentioned. AK is the right age to have become a HP fan as a child (the first HP book was published in 1998 in the US, and featured an 11-year old Harry/Hermione/Ron etc.- around the same age as AK at the time) and to thus have 'grown up' with the characters in the subsequent books (as Rowling intended). I know a lot of older teenagers/20-somethings falling into this category who still passionately identify with those characters, and the actors who played them on screen. As you point out, we know that AK likes movies, so its highly probable that she has watched the HP movies as many times as she seems to read the books, and is safe to speculate also that she is probably a Daniel Radcliffe fan.
The link I'm thinking of is DR's recent (and very controversial) toe-dip into the 'edgy' 'adult' world- ref. his recent live theatre performances, including sex scenes and full-frontal nudity, in the play Equus (which incidentally, for those who don't know it, explores disturbing and violent expressions of sexuality). Many, many parents have been extremely upset by DR's moving into this type of work (and his eagerness to do more of the same type), especially before he has finished 'being' HP, as he is an influential hero/role model/celebrity crush for many an impressionable young person.
IF Radcliffe is some kind of 'ideal man' in AK's mind, his move into this kind of work would have drawn her attention to the 'dark side' (nod to Steve H ) and sparked a curiosity more than Donna Tartt/Brett Easton Ellis ever could. Of course nobody but AK is responsible for the part she played in this crime- DR or no DR, the girl would appear to have serious problems that pre-date 'Equus'. Just wanted to illustrate that the wholesome/dark divide in the arts is not as black-and-white as it may sometimes appear, even when it comes to kids literature, and nice kids often have an unholy and consuming fascination for whatever comes into their range and is then made 'taboo'. Combine that with some kind of abnormal disturbance, psychopathy or inability to connect appropriately with reality, and it can lead to problems.
Getting into strictly theoretical territory here, so apologies to anyone who is only interested in the reported facts at this stage. Robert M, if you're still there, what do you t
Kevin was like:
> No one is ever going to confuse a Congolese for a North African. In fact
> North Africans look pretty much the same as Italians.
I know. That's my point. However, the two sources I cited appear confused about the fourth man. Once describes him as Congloese (i.e. black) the other as North African (i. e. levantine).
Usi is from Senegal.
He's lived in Perugia for nine years and has a young child.
P said Usi came into his bar that night.
A journalist (not p's lawyer, not the police!) interviewed him and he can't remember at what time he saw P. As a consequence, I presume he won't be of much use to P's defence.
Usi is not the fourth man. The journalist who wrote that must be confused.
Usi's skin is much darker than P's.
The North Africans in Perugia, Tunisians and Morrocans are easily distinguisable from the Italians
damian,
you are correct about Usi being Senegalese. I do think he is the fourth man, however I believe his role was limited to clean up duites. Kind of like Harvey Kietel in Pulp Fiction.
As for the text message predicting the death of "Meredit", supposedly there was a TV show in Italy broadcast the next evening where a main character named Meredith was dying or something.
I hope the suspects' attorneys are documenting media reports so they can collect damages from the offending newspapers when their clients are vindicated.
I have never read any Harry Potter... but, I have read The Secret History by Donna Tartt. What strikes me is:
1) the apparent premeditation involved
2) the plausibility, beauty and charisma of Amanda Knox (did she identify with Camilla in The Secret History?), her love of excitement, combined with narcissism/arrogance - she seemed to want to be in some sort of cult, and her boyfriend fitted the need perfectly
3) the feeling that even if she was involved that you don't want her to be in an Italian prison for the next forty years - the case (like the book) seems to be testing the bounds of morality
4) the sadness of so many young lives facing ruin as a result of living out a fantasy which went too far
The parallels are striking to me, though I find it difficult to put into words - anyone else?
Various sources are reporting that the body of the murdered girl is being flown back to the UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
uklate...7067443,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/70.../uk/
7088667.stm
http://www.orange.co.uk/news/top...ories/
27943.htm
It's been widely reported that Knox "can't remember" whether Kercher was at the house before or after she arrived.
The Sunday Mirror states that Knox and her two males accomplices met Kercher on her way home from watching a film at Purton's house, suggesting that the trio deliberately intercepted Kercher with malice aforethought.
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/ne...89520-20088825/
Todger...the Mirror is wrong. The judge didn't say they met Meredith on her way home.
Zeus... I've never read Harry potter, nor The Secret history, however...'the feeling that even if she was involved..you don't want her to be in an Italian prison for the next forty years.' isn't a feeling which is shared here, and I would presume, also outside Perugia.
Also, 'the sadness of so many young lives facing ruin as a result of living out a fantasy..' is not the sadness felt here.
There is enormous shock and anger at the horrific crime, there is a strong desire to punish the guilty and there is one victim...her name was Meredith.
Damian: Your posts from Perugia are invaluable. I have also read the Perugia Blog which gives a feeling for how people there are responding to events. Info in the Seattle papers is days behind when the information appears here.
Seattleite wrote :
(Imagined blog post: Hi Guys, just got done watching the Lion King for the tenth time and I am now going to settle down and re-read Brett Easton Ellis' paen to psychopathetic behavior.)
LOL......thats sounds more like something I would have written 15 yrs ago! Scary huh?!
damian
You quote me out of context - you thereby misquote me - I am just trying to make sense of it all, as are we all, in our different ways.
You say that there is "a strong desire to punish the guilty" - well, we don't know who is guilty yet, do we? And, since you seem to have all the answers, tell me how anyone can have a "fair trial" after all this speculation? - that surely diminishes the chances of the guilty being punished, doesn't it?
Plans to bring Merediths body back to the UK have been stopped by P. defense lawyers:
"Defence lawyers representing Congolese-born suspect Patrick Lumumba made a last-minute demand to have the 21-year-old's body re-examined after querying the time of her death. The body of the Leeds University student was already on its way to Rome airport when the request was made and last night it was in an airport mortuary awaiting a judicial decision."
Edda Mellas statement after meeting her daughter is interesting too: "I saw my daughter for an hour and I feel happier for having seen her. Amanda told me she was very upset by the death of her friend but she was confident that she would be released soon."
Seems like she's positive about a release. I wonder about what they have talked. Is Amanda lying to her mother about the events of murder, just like she did to the police?
The relationship to her mother is described as difficult. Apparently she had to compete with her mother for men:
"Of course, Amanda heard the cruel gossip, that her mother had married a 'toy boy'. It intensified the feelings of rejection that had burdened her ever since she learned her mother had been pregnant with her when she embarked on her disastrous first marriage, which lasted less than four years.
And, looking back, it may well have been the turning point ..."
I find that rather interesting. seattleite also talked about the rejection this girl must have felt when coming to Perugia.
erhw wrote :
I think Robert M's ideas about a possible fascination with Harry Potter feeding in to an interest in Daniel Radcliffe are worth considering,
I don't think that AK's reading material was any indicator of her possible propensity for violence.
I find her whole tone, in her writings, self absorbed and somewhat fake as if she is trying to portray a maturity and depth that eludes her.
The whole idea that literacy choices can define people in regards to their potential actions ( and I know that in hindsight at times this has been shown to be an indicator) I find is a weak one.
Take a stroll through my book shelf and you would be out the door in a flash!!
I'm sure that my net surfing habits have at times sent alarm bells ringing.
I just don't read into it very much and as I said earlier, I believe peoples reading choices at times to be very 'fashionable' for want of a better word. People love to jump on the bandwagon in my opinion.
Here is the link to the above quotes:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1770
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1770
from the telegraph:
"The police now think they can identify him (4th suspect)from the footage from three car park security cameras which overlook the house where Miss Kercher was killed"
I wonder why there is no mention of Amanda, the boyfriend and the barowner showing up in the footage from these 3 cameras 'overlooking the house'?
Seems like a no brainer, but maybe there is no footage at all of anything.....
I disagree Rob. Why would the police feel the need to give out every little detail? Telling the public the three suspects are also on the video isn't going to help them. It doesn't mean they are not on the footage. However they mentioned the 4th suspect because they were/are looking for him.
"The chilling text can be easily explained: it is referred to Meredith Gray of "Gray's Anatomy". In fact, last Thursday Nov. 1st, there was an episode on Italian TV where the character of Meredith was about to day."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...e#StartComments
Any thoughts?
The comment I posted above has a typo. It must read: "... the character of Meredith was about to die.".
Maybe one of the local posters can verify this.
Zeus, If I misunderstood your post, I apologise. I agree that we don't know who is guilty yet and that I don't have all the answers.
I'll be the last person on this blog to defend the Italian Justice System. (see above) The police have launched an inquiry into the leaking of information to journalists, which is also par for the course here. One possible reason for this perrenial slackness is the fact that there aren't any jurors to be influenced. I don't know much about these things, so maybe some of you can help explain.
frangi...I completely agree.
deepen...good work.
seattleite...thanx...about 5 hours ago(8pm here), the police cordonned off P's bar as the investigation continues.
Dieter...November 1, on Italia 1, there was an episode of Gray's Anatomy. If someone else can confirm that Meredith is a protaganist, then I think the message really is a red herring.
Deepen: I have been wondering when a Knox family sitauation would surface to explain some of this stuff. I was also wondering why her uncle Uve from her blogs was only 25 years old. Thanks for posting this.
There are some similarities between the plot of "Gray's Anatomy" and this case. The protagonist lives in SEATTLE and she is a SURGEON (remember Knox's boyfriend photos?).
But it is only a coincidence, right?
Seattleite : That was actually her cousin, not her uncle.
Her sister (the crazy woman eith twins) comments and corrects her mistake.
There is actually some bantering between the two of them as to the fact that Amanda can't work out how the family tree and relationships are 'set up'.
This is all on her Myspace.
Random, it would be a perfect "case closed" (as they posted on the police headquarters door following the 3 arrests) to say we have footage of these suspects entering and leaving the vicinity of the house at blah blah times.
The cops would have put it to the judge to place P there seeing there is no DNA and there are no prints shoe or otherwise to put him at the scene. Just the allegations of an acknowledged liar.
It would be entirely consistent to put this info out there - if they have bothered to go look for footage anyway
That in itself I find a sign of immaturity and did so when reading it.
Frangi: Thanks for the correct. I wasn't looking forward to going back and reading the blog. There is in the Seattle press the continuing mantra of "what a nice, intelligent girl this was" as if they were cheering for someone at a pep rally. I was certain there would appear some traumatic event or problem which may to some degree cast some light on who this young woman is.
An interesting article if anyone hasn't been keeping up with the news over the days:
http://news.independent.co.uk/
eu...icle3149956.ece
As deepen told us earlier, P's lawyer has asked the judge to prevent Meredith's body from being sent back to England. He claims the original autopsy had the time of death as late as midnight, while the revised time is between 9-11pm, with the stabbing 30minutes before her death.
The Swiss prof, according to P's lawyer, was with P from 8-30. He is believed to have returned to Zurich and the police are trying to find him.
Seattleite wrote :
I was certain there would appear some traumatic event or problem which may to some degree cast some light on who this young woman is.
I actually don't really think there will be anything.
The whole idea that your life is defined by events in your childhood REALLY gives me the shits!!
There comes a time in your life when you know right from wrong. No excuses.
All I get from Amanda is immaturity. She was flying through life in a whirlwind and having a blast not considering the consequences.
My previous post is from www.theguardian.co.uk while thetimes.co.uk has 8-30 - 10-30 as time of murder.
When you read about her time in Hamburg working in the Bundestag she talks about how he uncle got her the job after a lot of favours apparently and she up and quits on the First day because she had nothing to do!
Oh! and she had a little bit of the flu.....
After she wrote emails and blogged about it.
She then states that it was so fun not working and meeting people and drinking near her 'borrowed' apartment before heading of to Italy.
Sounds like a spoilt, ungrateful brat who always has someone to pick up the pieces.
then, deanna and i went to grab a sandwich at the same cafe and i bumped into the most beautiful black man i have ever seen. he said he'd see me when i come back from germany.
Just reading back through her blogs and realised I had missed this.
Patrick.....
I think she didn't get to this point, frangi, where she would be able to comment on her own life. I think she was too involved in the family life back in the US. Thats probably why she wanted to get away. Maybe it was the first "big" journey for her and the first time to be physically seperated from her family for such a long time ... free to decide, free to re-think certain aspects of her life.
Then add the pot, the alcohol, her character, the whirlwind life and maybe those traumatic events ... would everyone be able to decide between right and wrong.
I think it can be a hint!
Random Guy: That article on Independent is very disappointing. Its tabloid style is very un-Independent.
Makes one wonder the barbarity we are dealing with here.
By the way, in her blog she mentions someone or something called "tore". Is this another uncle?
Deepen:
Uve is her uncle, and he is the one who got the flat and job for her.
Tore is her cousin that she thought was her cousin and is the one who 'hit on her'.
I know she is only twenty, and believe me my niece is 30, married with a child and mortgage and is as immature as Amanda is.
It's just the lack of personal responsibility and way of excusing her bad choices and behaviour that gives me the willies.
I would never compare to myself at that age as our lives are COMPLETELY different but it always seems it 'never her fault'.
Tore is her cousin that she thought was her cousin and is the one who 'hit on her'.
Thought was her uncle...sorry
Random,
from the independent article you linked:
"But now it appears that it only confirmed facts of which they were already confident: mobile phone records established where all three of the accused were at 8.30 on the night of 1 November, when they switched their phones off; they established that they switched them on again early the next morning; and that Knox and Sollecito had set off in one direction and Lumumba in another."
Nov 10th's UK daily mail prints:
"it is known that in the hours after the killing there was heavy text and call traffic between Amanda Marie Knox and boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito.
Police say phone calls made by the pair expose their alibi as a lie.
Despite the couple's claims to have been elsewhere at the time of the killing, police say they used their phones in the vicinity of the murder scene around the time Miss Kercher died."
It seems to me that both these dailies have opposing information about something as simple as phone records - one stating they were switched off the other citing heavy text and call traffic.
Go figure, everybody's just grasping at straws right now....i hope the cops don't fuck up the basic simple stuff.
Thanks for explaining frangi.
Suppose she took part in the murder and I - from my distant view - had to decide whether she's responsible or not responsible for her actions, because of traumatic events in her childhood ... I would rule responsible.
But I still think its possible that some events regarding her early childhood had traumatic potential.
will someone please make a mirror of this before google's cache catches up?
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...lient=firefox-
a
it's Edda's husband's myspace page, before he cancelled his account.
AK's stepfather, that is.
the "toy boy"
btw - is there a link for that quote?
cheers everyone.
But I still think its possible that some events regarding her early childhood had traumatic potential.
Who's haven't.......LOL
I just find her blog's a sign of someone who doesn't appear to take responsibility for her behaviour.
I am probably reading way too much into her ramblings but I even found her statement to the police that she put her fingers in her ears to block out Meredith's screams, more about her and her 'experience' and discomfort, not about Meredith and what she was going through.
Narcissism at it's best.
I wish the UK tabloids would stop calling her "Foxy Knoxy." For some reason, I find that really annoying.
http://tinyurl.com/2trvq6
"toy-Boy" quote.
Carrynation: Is this for real? If so, I hate to give frangi the shits but there is enough pathology floating around here for anyone's taste. This ain't eccentric: this is bizarre.
yes, it's real. I was one of those people who looked at AK's myspace page immediately after her name was connected to the murder, before she'd made it private. her stepfather was linked to off of her page - in her "Top 8." I'd looked at his profile then.
if you look at the mirror of her site, you'll see that his profile is stil in her Top 8, but if you click through, you'll see that he cancelled his account.
with some search skills and knowledge about how google caching works, I found the cache of his page.
(I work as a software developer in the field of search, so... I'm pretty geeky with this stuff)
another profile linked off of AK's mirrored page is "Knoxville," who is AK's little sister Deanna.
I haven't found much on her yet, except for this:
http://shinobi-skillz.livejourna...com/
165073.html
Deanna is mentioned 3 times her, marginally, but I still find it interesting: she's "annoying as hellllll" apparently.
fun family.
if you check the userinfo for the author of the above livejournal site, you'll see that he/she is in Washington state, and the mention of a prom just earlier this year ensures that he/she is about the same age as Deanna.
oh, the Internet..
Carrynation: I will keep you mind if I ever need an internet forensics expert. I was aware of the cacheing softwares out there but...many thnaks for the "illumination". I am calling my parents right now and thank them for not referring to me as shithead during my formative years.
seattleite: I'm calling mine too. cheers.
Steve Huff:
I have read but a few of the comments here to your blog so my comment might be redundant.
However, in your blog you seemed confused by Knox's statements that she said she "met" Diya on the 01 Nov.; then again that she met Diya on the 05 Nov.; yet on her own blog she said she was working for him at his bar from something like 10 Oct or so.
This is not confusing at all. She is never quoted as saying she "first met", she is saying like I "met with" or "I met up", or I "we met" to talk.
I find her statements all very consistent in this regards.
Thanks again, RGIL! I don't know who the writer was (at the independent.co.uk) but that was a very nicely written story. Very plausible. There were alot of drugs and drinking (that was a nice touch about the marijuana plants and empty syringes in the garden) among a transient population.
The press is focused on AK and PL but there's something strange, I think, about RS. He comes across a little too cool.
One reason why only Usi is the only one caught on camera is that perhaps he was the only one who arrived in a car. If you look at the aerial photos, the parking lot is across the street and is several meters higher in elevation than the house. People travelling on foot to the house probably wouldn’t cross the parking lot. I think it is unlikely that the CCTV covered the entrance to the house itself, this would be illegal (although obviously not everyone follows the law) due to privacy issues. Also I think the police would have played up any evidence of the main suspects coming and going from the house if they had such evidence.
The hypothesis of Usi arriving by car tends to support his role as the clean-up guy. From the evidence of the till receipts it seems likely that Lumumba left first probably at 22:15. I would guess that Sollecito left afterwards, leaving the mess for Knox to clean up. This is supported by the reports of lots of telephone communication between the two (Knox and Sollecito). She would have then called Usi and offered him sex to help her out of a jam. She must have figured that when it comes to the violent rape and murder you can never have enough men of African descent involved. Besides cleaning up the bloody clothing, it is probably at this point that they messed the house up to make it look like a burglary.
Some questions arise. How did Sollecito get home if one assumes he left his bloody clothes at the crime scene? In fact it seems a little weird that he would have his shoes on while raping a dying woman but they were all stoned out so it is no use speculating.. And who left the massive dump in the toilet unflushed? It seems to be left there intentionally since presumably Knox and Sollecito had several opportunities to flush it before the police came. That leads me to believe that it belongs to one of the Africans since the wealthy white rich kids would have instinctually realized the benefit of implicating the black guys and therefore not flushed away such evidence. .
Interesting article
This supports Damian's opinion that the fourth man was not Usi and was indeed a North African.
Traces of Meredith's blood was found on Sollecito's underwear after police searched his home.
The suspects used a mop and bucket to clean up the murder scene which Knox, an American, hid at her Sollecito's house after the killing
Also Mrs.Lumumba is standing by her man:
Last night the wife of murder suspect Patrick Diya Lumumba said she believed her husband was being "set up" by Amanda Knox.
Polish Alessandra Beata Cania, known as Ola, last night insisted her husband was innocent and said: "I'm 100 per cent behind him. I'm standing by him because I'm completely sure he didn't do this. The girl has tried to set him up."
Ola said she thought her husband would be free by now. But she said: "I have faith in the judicial process because I know the truth will come out."
Raffaele's father Francesco Sollecito said his son was innocent and also hinted he may have been led astray by Knox. He said: "I think it's fair to say he is re-evaluating the feelings he may have once felt for this girl."
The whole basis for keeping the three suspects in prison is the obvious discrepancies in their statements. Amanda Knox's is the most damning. She has made a partial 'confession' implicating the most obvious suspect, Lumumba, (older man, non Italian), though Lumumba insists he has a cast iron alibi, and wasn't there. Sollecito originally said he and Amanda weren't even in the 'House of Horrors'. Amanda Knox and her boyfriend couldn't even lie properly, an obvious sign of immaturity. The Italian police can't be faulted on this case, given the testimonies presented to them, they have no choice.
Kevin, if you believe the independent article A and R had their phones off then turned on early in the morning and locator pings show them moving through mast cells together. the daily mail said they had alot of traffic between their phones.
Until the phone records are out and verified we really can't conjecture validly.
CCTV in the UK is not illegal, it can and does cover anything. The only laws are a citizen's rights to privacy in how the data collected is used and shared. The burden is on the citizen to show misuse and sharing of the data. This is difficult to ascertain without direct proof and then only a complaint under the Data Protection Act can be made by the citizen. There is no bite to this legislation for the individual.
Since 1998 in London I have lived in 3 different addresses and been aware of having the front door and streets covered by CCTV including cameras operated on behalf of the city. It has been demonstrated how you can be followed by camera through your day with around 300 differently located cameras supplying the trail.
Thanks to Carrynation for linking to that cache of the stepfather's MySpace.
An odd aspect of this case was the failure of whoever knifed Meredith to call for an amubulance. It took at least 30 mins, possibly longer, for the victim to die. Medics could have saved her.
There are several explanations for the assailants' inaction:
a. they intended to murder; b. were too drunk/stoned to realise what had happened; c. too shocked to act; d. tried themselves to save the victim, and then it was too late.
All of this makes it even less likely that Lumumba was the (sole) murderer, because he obviously wasn't particularly stoned (he was back serving drinks in his bar by 10.30 at the latest) and, after his departure, Sollecito or Knox could still have called for an ambulance.
rob,
I have also lived in London and know about how invasive CCTV is there. But we are talking about Italy here. I currently live in France and I know for a fact that the CCTV laws require a property owner to only cover their side of the property line. Of course this is not enforceable but it is still the law. I suspect that the laws in Italy are more similar to those in France than those in the UK. On the other hand though it certainly is possible that the police do have the other suspects on tape. The police have no interest in divulging all their evidence. It is much better to turn all the suspects against each other and to get them to both blame the others and to stick to their ridiculous alibis and lies, all of which can be used against them later.
AndyT,
If the suspects had called the police and Meredith survived then she would have been able to testify at their subsequent rape and attempted murder trial.
But while I agree that in reality the Lumumba as lone killer theory makes no sense, now that blood has been found on Sollecito’s underwear, his only move is to say that they (he and Knox) were indeed in the house but that they barged in when they heard Meredith’s screams after being morally stabbed by Lumumba and that he then threatened to kill them if they told anyone. They were so stoned they panicked and didn’t call the police. If Lumumba continues with his total denials (which he needs to do to keep his wife on his side) he risks taking most of the rap. Remember Sollecito and Knox will have high profile attorneys.
In reality though it makes more sense that Lumumba was lured there under the pretense of easy sex with a girl he fancied and it is even likely that he got the hell out of their when things started getting rough. He had a wife, son and business to consider.
This is of course supposition and I make my conclusions on the reports I've read in the press - Guardian UK. I think that Sollecito along with his girlfriend Knox are the most likely suspects at this stage. Sollecito had blood stains on his underpants and a shoe print left behind is a similar match to one he owns. Also the text messages and knife are suspicious. Intriguing is the text message sent wrongly to a Mauro Palmieri, a Rome shop assistant with no connections to the threesome or Ms Kercher and who has only been to Perugia once on a school trip, which reads 'As far as I am concernced tomorrow or this evening Meredith dies.' Bizzarely he deleted the text and thought nothing of it until he read that a certain Meredith Kercher had been killed.
Re length of time to die. The third knife wound is reported to have gone in deep. If it hit an artery then it would take 90 seconds for Ms Kercher to have lost 3 litres of blood, which is then considered the point of no return. I saw this particular wound being demonstrated on a programme 'Autopsy' on UK Channel 4. A deep vein/arterial wound splatters uncontrollably, especially if it's in the neck, sending blood all over the place - this matches the crime scene reportedly foundl.
The sunday times leads with the premeditated theory, based on the text message, about Meredith dying, sent two days before her death. Italian news is also still talking about it. We discovered last night that this message refered to 'Gray's Anatomy', which was shown on italian tv nov 1, in which a character called Meredith went into a coma. This morning I spoke to sky and nbc journalists, and they didn't know anything about it. I also told the Carabinieri officer outside the house...he smiled benignly.
The house is not covered by the cameras.
The supposed 4th man is the same man all the local press said disappeared after the crime. The morning of the 3 arrests, his photo was in every paper here.
There is no proof P was in the house yet, but, from his mobile phone, the police believe he was in the area of the crime at the time.
The Swiss Prof has been found and the police will talk to him in Zurich. He's not who I thought he was since he was staying in a hotel, and therefore doesn't live here.
A has changed her story again...she wasn't there.
I love all these updates. Keep them coming. I'm thinking its more likely that P left when M rejected him or when things started getting out of control. If he indeed had raped her, there would surely be at least one piece of DNA evidence.
Damian, where did you find out that A said she wasn't there again? This doesn't look good for her if she continues to lie. Her bloody fingerprint was already found on Merediths head.
I have read through all the posts and find this a fascinating but not unusual case given the involvement of these rather young persons RS & AK.
The case is all but solved, only the prosecution to follow. Yes there must have been a fourth, but possibly one only called to try and help clean up the mess, though they could have been there from the start.
The file to retain the body of MK for further autopsy is only a desperate attempt by PL's attorney to hopefully confuse the court as to the time line of the accidental murder/homocide.
However, the coroner's report clearly stated that the food (dinner) in her stomach provided the close approximate time of death after MK's friend stated when they had eaten together, not stated in the judge's summary, but obviously a fixed time before 21:00 hours when MK left for home. This put the death time between 21:30 and 22:30 hours, given then when pre-digestion ceased to occur in the victims stomach. This gave plenty of time for PL to get back to his bar by 22:29 to ring up his first register receipt. He might not even have hung around once her blood starting flowing. (Furthermore if he had the skills to alter his cell phone IMEI and IMSI codes then he obviously had the skill to alter his cash register's time stamp.)
I really think erhw and Robert M's posts have been right on the money here along with a few others. Quite astute and critical thinking by those and others.
I stated "accident" because in no way could this have been a premeditated homocide. It was much too sloppy and had all the earmarks of all those involved, including the Mr. Usi or X, of panicked behavior. There is absolutely no way when the DNA analysis is completed that every one at the scene is not typed. If that should somehow exclude PL and include a Mr. X instead it will still be quite open and shut as long as they can find a Mr. X as necessary to compare the DNA evidence.
It most likely was premeditated sexual assignation on a unsuspecting victim, most likely even premeditated rape. So often sexual advances rejected leads to rape, especially if multiple attackers and/or alcohol and drugs are involved. Exactly why and for what reason, will come out in either a full confession or in a trial when all the evidence is finally considered and placed into relevancy, given that the accused continue to refuse to confess completely, now that they have legal representation.
However my guess is that AK and/or RS or both will confess if offered a plea agreement for lesser charges, i.e., 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, etc. However, I am not all familiar with Italian Law and how prosecution for homicide is conducted.
Last but not least this case as many case do, begs for both a psychological and physiological (drugs, alcohol, genetic predisposition) analysis of these three (so far) protagonists.
It appears to me that all the posters here are giving sincere thought and critical thinking to what led both AK, RS an
It appears to me that all the posters here are giving sincere thought and critical thinking to what led both AK, RS and PL into this scheme with MK, not thinking there would be consequences for their actions, notwithstanding that it would turn out also to be overwhelmingly tragic.
Also to Damian.
Thanks for the great posts and the timely information updates.
Gen, thats a statement by her mother after visiting her daughter in jail:
"Mrs Mellas, a schoolteacher, said after seeing her daughter at the prison outside Perugia that "she told me she was not even there, where that poor girl Meredith was killed." She said Ms Knox had reverted to her first version of events, maintaining that she spent the entire night of the murder at the flat of Raffaele Sollecito, her Italian boyfriend, who is the third suspect in the case. Ms Knox has now changed her story at least three times."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2851266.ece
She also said that P had nothing to do with it:
"Mrs Mellas however said her daughter told her that "in accusing Patrick I did something really stupid. I told the truth in my first interrogation. That night Raffaele and I did not move from his flat"."
Thanks Deepen. Amanda is surely just getting herself in deeper water.
Here is a nice graphic showing a map of Perugia, a timetable and a plan of the top floor of the "horror house".
Seems like Merediths room was at the end of the hall with the window showing north. If you compare the pictures from her myspace, AKs room must have been in the middle of the hallway right next to Merediths, with the window showing west.
If you look at the birds eye view of the house you can see that one would need a ladder to get to Merediths window.
The whole story about the burglary they set up is obviously, obviously false. Why were they so stupid to do that and broke the window?
Police must have figured this out within minutes.
They should have let Merediths door open and instead break the window in the entrance hallway.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...rcher111big.gif
The Swiss Professor has returned to Perugia.
There is no 'official' plea-bargaining in Italy. However if you collaborate with the authorities this is taken into consideration by the judge. (with up to a third of the punishment being in play)
A and R were there.
Usi is not involved.
I'm trying to track down any local rag from the 1st november, in which there was the name and photo of the 4th suspect...without any luck so far. I've heard two names, one is Rasheed. He's a musician, and if its who I think it is, he's played music with P in the past.
...sorry, not the first of november, the date of the three arrests...
The Corriere della sera claim that the prof has confirmed he was with P from 8pm to 10pm that night. The police are about to interview him
I need help with some technical stuff. The police claim that at 8-38, P's mobile phone hooked up with the 'cella', directly above Meredith's house.
P's bar is a 10 minute walk from Meredith's house. I don't know where P lives.
For the first time in a while, this is not the first thing on Italian news. A football supporter was shot dead today by the police in Tuscany, about an hour from here.
Hmm... still 28 minutes without an alibi. He could have left at 10 pm, arrived at Merediths at 10:10, kill her in 8 minutes, return to 'Le Chic' at 10:28 and issue the receipt.
But its unlikely.
P apparently has many other witness's. In particular, a group of belgian students who were in his pub.
The shit in the toilet doesn't belong to any of the three suspects, according to the corriere.
Gen was like:
> Amanda is surely just getting herself in deeper water.
*deeper*?
She sure as shit stinks ain't going to come out of this smelling of roses; she will be convicted, along with at least two male accomplices, of sexual assault and murder, so her wriggling while she's on the hook is not going to make any difference at all.
Damian was like:
> The shit in the toilet doesn't belong to any of the three suspects, according
> to the corriere.
My money's on the dead girl for this one. In a few days the results of the analysis of the fecal matter will probably be revealed, telling us what the owner ate and what else was in the bowl.
The mattress appears to have made a return. If I remember correctly, the early news stories stated the body was found "under a mattress". Subsequent stories referred to a "duvet", and the mattress seemed to have been forgotten, however, the graphic from the Torygraph, posted by deepen, states the body was under the duvet and the mattress.
I wonder if they were put over her to muffle sounds/supress movement, or if the arrangement was post mortem?
Todger...I completely agree. It's been all over for A and R for a while now. Do you have any idea how precisely the 8-38 call by P, can be placed at the house??? Apart from his lies, this seems to be what is convincing the police he was in some way involved.
That Amanda is said to be in jail writing "her version" of things tells me that she thinks she can story her way out of this. She's probably had a history of easily deceiving people, I'd imagine in small ways, most of the time -- things that seemed like white lies at the time. But put together, all part of a pattern.
I gotta say that some of the people who don't claim to know her but are defending her strike me as folks who simply can't believe any young woman with an education would get involved in such a horrendous crime.
If Amanda had been a literate, 20-year-old young man from Seattle, nice-looking, former barista, you name it -- how much slack would some of you folks cut that person? Not nearly as much as you want to believe Amanda was a victim, too. Because we all know that men are always the evildoers.
Truth is, statistics are against males, and any guy who denies that is being thick. But I've been studying this stuff for too long now, and for me, Amanda fits a distinct pattern I've seen embodied in other young women who are accused of taking part in violent crimes.
It isn't a myth that more men commit violent, sexually-related crimes than women. It's true. But I think some people believe that women do not have it in them to be involved in such acts, and I'm sorry to tell you if you're in that group, you're wrong. Women can and do commit or take part in committing vicious, brutal crimes all the time.
I believe the police here know exactly what they're looking at. I keep comparing it to the McCann disappearance, where there's some new faux development every other week. The fact is, the murder of Meredith Kercher has been totally different. The Italian authorities have been quite consistent in focusing on more than two peoples' involvement in the crime. They've cited credible evidence that is pretty easy to obtain nowadays and rather hard to screw up.
Let me throw this at anyone who just can't believe Amanda Knox had any part in this crime -- if the Italian cops are dead wrong on this and just keeping our poor little American girl cooped up on trumped-up charges, where is our government? Where's the American ambassador to Italy demanding independent investigation? Why isn't Amanda being protected in the consulate or embassy there? The silence is deafening there, and that speaks volumes to me. Italians and Americans get along, nationally-speaking, and if there's been any communication about this case, I'll bet you whatever American authorities learned from their Italian counterparts was pretty convincing.
Just had to throw some rambling 2 cents of my own in.
Steve
Kevin and Maggie: Where did you both read that blood was found on Rafaelle's underwear?
Emily: Like you, though it doesn't make him a murderer, I also think Rafaelle seems rather strange. Every single time you see him, he has the same facial expression. He doesn't look happy, sad, distraught, upset - his face doesn't give anything away. He seems like a passive person. Perhaps it would explain why he was seeking stronger/extreme experiences - because he doesn't feel things easily? Or perhaps he was still stoned.
RandomGuy was like:
> Kevin and Maggie: Where did you both read that blood was found on Rafaelle's
> underwear?
The UK media is running that; I think I saw it in the Observer, on the BBC website and The Mirror's too.
Damian was like:
> Do you have any idea how precisely the 8-38 call by P, can be placed at the
> house??? Apart from his lies, this seems to be what is convincing the
> police he was in some way involved.
I don't really know; I'm sure the location of a mobile phone can be located to a particular cell, but whether or not the precise location *within* a cell can be fixed is not the sort of thing I know. But if they have PL's phone using the cell closest to the house, they can put him in the vicinity; I would imagine they also have the call logged on the recipient's phone too--probably in the same cell.
It may be that there is evidence that hasn't been released yet--not just the phone call and Knox's testimony (and possibly RS's too), but something from forensics.
The fact that PL claimed to be at the bar during the killing, but doesn't have the till receipts to support that assertion, seems a good reason to keep him banged up. He also changed the IMEI number of his phone (or changed phone, depending upon the version of events one reads) Also, while it seems there may be people who are willing to say PL was at Le Chic, there is also evidence to suggest the bar wasn't opened when PL claimed it was open--but this is just kicking over what is already known. Perhaps there are more revelations to come ...
Cheers todger. November 1st is a public holiday in Italy. When a holiday falls on a Thursday or a Tuesday, 99% of italians make a 'bridge'. (linking it to the weekend and taking the 4 days) The majority of italian students in Perugia went back, that long weekend, to their parents houses. This explains why Meredith's neighbours weren't around and why it is plausible that it was a quiet night for the local bars.
Also, people go out very late here...the bars are always empty until 11ish.
and...not giving receipts is common practice here...to the extent that making a purchase and leaving a shop/bar without a receipt is a criminal offence here.
The request from PL's representative for a second post-mortem examination has been declined and the body has been released and is now back in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/70.../uk/
7088667.stm
The Swiss prof will be interviewed tomorrow. If there really is no forensic proof that P was in the house, and the prof confirms what he has already said, I think P's lawyer will ask the judge to release his client.
@ damian,
Thank you for the confirmation that there was a natural explanation for the Italians being away, be it the two in Meredith's flat or the four young men in the flat downstairs.
Though of course, depending on how sensitive they are, they will be blaming themselves for being away and thereby allowing this to happen....
The Guardian says that the police are playing down the search for the 4th man...are looking for the man seen in the laundrette, but in connection with another case!
They also say that the 8-38 call, puts him in the area of Meredith's house, not the area of his bar. Remember, the distance between the two isn't great; a 10minute walk, or as the crow flies, much less.
I agree totally with Steve.
It's quite possible that Knox played a central role in the murder, possibly even administering the final stab to the neck, while the two men (Solecito + plus unknown) "had their way" with Meredith.
Was this deep final stab administered intentionally?
I would say, subconsciously yes.
Knox projected all her pent-up anger against her mom, stemming from latter's relationship with toyboy husband, onto Meredith.
Knox had a crush on Lumumba from the first day she saw him. When she realised that Lumumba actually found Meredith more attractive, all of Knox's pent-up anger against her mom turned into envy and jealousy of Meredith. It was then that she resolved to seek bloody revenge. Incriminating Lumumba was the final act in her dastard plan.
Thank you to everyone for linking news articles and web sites that relate to this tragedy.
That the text msg about Meredith dying could be about Meredith Grey in the American television show "Grey's Anatomy" would be an incredible coincidence. Ms. Grey did, in one of last season's episodes, go into a coma after nearly drowning, and her status was touch-and-go for an episode.
Bizarre coincidence--I suppose the numbers on both ends of the text msg have been verified?
I send a prayer for Meredith Kercher's family.
According to the Telegraph online, the official judge's report did specifically say that the knife wound did NOT reach MK's carotid artery, and that as a result death took some time. Has this now been contradicted by a reliable source?
erhw...no. Why?
Yea, in light of the new information about Italian TV scheduling (!) I'm inclined to believe that the text message might well be a red herring- hopefully the police can trace the person who sent it and clear that up one way or another. It was certainly a weird thing to do if it is connected to this crime.
Glad that it looks like Meredith's family will get her back sooner rather than later. I am really feeling for them through all this. It broke my heart from the beginning hearing about how her dad just kept calling and calling her mobile, hoping against hope that it wasn't her, that they'd got the name/identity wrong, etc.
Damian just wanted to say thanks for posting so regularly here. It is always good to have a person 'on the ground' who is interested enough to keep those of us further away informed, fill in the gaps etc. I didn't know that 1st Nov is a public holiday in Italy- now I do, it does make perfect sense why all the Italians were off for a long weekend!
Just because a little way back, some posted were speculating about that- Maggie said: 'Re length of time to die. The third knife wound is reported to have gone in deep. If it hit an artery then it would take 90 seconds for Ms Kercher to have lost 3 litres of blood, which is then considered the point of no return. I saw this particular wound being demonstrated on a programme 'Autopsy' on UK Channel 4. A deep vein/arterial wound splatters uncontrollably, especially if it's in the neck, sending blood all over the place - this matches the crime scene reportedly found.'
I think AndyT also then said something about an 'intentional deep stab' so since I've been busy all day I was just wondering if I'm up to date on the latest info.
Thanks for the clarification!
erhw. Yes it was a deep knife cut but as the Telegraph suggests didn't cut the artery. I have to say a slow death makes the whole scenario even more horrendous. I was only pointing out that a major vein or arterial cut does led to a swift death and blood spray (which the Guardian on Saturday reported as being all over the place). According to the Telegraph website, Ms Knox is changing her statement yet again and now claims she wasn't at the flat at all during the day or night. It's also reported that the text message sent to the shop assistant in Rome does refer to the Grey's Anatomy programme a grisly coincidence.
I have to agree with Steve on his summation of Knox's character and the actions of the Italian police.
My thoughts are with the family as well and they must be relieved to get Meredith's body back. This is all so shocking and so sad.
An Italian newspaper reports that police now believe that the cut is compatible with the hand of a woman...
Amanda killed her, it's clear...
Amanda and the African man did the job. I don't think the Italian because he look too naive and dull.
"An Italian newspaper reports that police now believe that the cut is compatible with the hand of a woman...
Amanda killed her, it's clear..."
"The cut is compatible with the hand of a woman????" And so now it's CLEAR that Amanda killed her? If the Italian media report tomorrow, that the cut is "compatible with a monkey" will you change your mind? It seems to me that everyone who takes every media report as the Gospel truth, then declares a verdict, are people who should never serve on jury duty.
she's a liar, she's a slut (promiscuous woman by dictionary definition), she was there, that's clear. her fingerprints are compatible with the signs on MK's face. While some guy was abusing MK, AK was torturing MK with the knife laughing at her pain, enjoying the scene and finally killed her.
That's it
deepen was like:
> Neither can I see the basketball court "haunted by drug addicts", nor the
> "grim" park she had to go through.
I think the basketball court is close to the house. I played with the map someone posted earlier, scolled around and rotated the view. There appears to be a basket ball court set amid an area surrounded by trees. Perhaps this is both the basketball court and "the park"?
In the image, I've labelled the house as "1" and the basketball court as "2".
http://upload.imgspot.com/u/07/
3...perugiacrop.jpg
As far as local geography goes, I've tried to locate Le Chic. Apparently it is in a street called "Via Alessi". However, I can't find a "Via Alessi" in GoogleMaps or the Microsoft map, only a "Via Galeazzo Alessi", so I'm assuming that, in popular usage, when a street is named after a person, the forename is dropped.
If someone could manipulate an interactive map to find 66 Via Alessi, and post a link or an image, I'm sure people reading this page would find it of interest.
AK is the product of the violent American media culture. Blood and extreme violence are in almost any American films sometimes even in comedies. The rate of violent crime in US is extremely high. Bowling for columbine of Michael Moore teaches
Frangi- by the way, I've just noticed, a good way back you wrote:
'erhw wrote :
I think Robert M's ideas about a possible fascination with Harry Potter feeding in to an interest in Daniel Radcliffe are worth considering,
I don't think that AK's reading material was any indicator of her possible propensity for violence.'
Respectfully, that is not the point my post was making, and since I (and my post) totally agree with your above statement anyway (and I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to argue that her reading material- the only thing she really talks about as far as I'm aware is HP- was linked in any way to her involvement in this crime!!!) I'm a little confused as to why you singled me out. My post was a respsonse to Seattleite and Jackie's discussion re how likely it is that someone might have an equal interest in both 'kids' and 'dark' literature. I was simply pointing out that the clear-cut divide within the arts that Seattleite was assuming, does not exist in reality, and pointing out that even with HP this is so. If an actor who many kids (and parents) frequently conflate with the fictional character of HP has recently begun to do some public exploration of the world of 'adult' themes himself- it is not really so surprising that this would draw attention to and spark some curiosity about the same in even the most 'wholesome' of his fans- especially those who are now in early adulthood themselves- who might not otherwise be particularly attracted by non-HP related 'dark' stuff.
My same post said this:
'Of course nobody but AK is responsible for the part she played in this crime- DR or no DR, the girl would appear to have serious problems that pre-date 'Equus'. Just wanted to illustrate that the wholesome/dark divide in the arts is not as black-and-white as it may sometimes appear, even when it comes to kids literature, and nice kids often have an unholy and consuming fascination for whatever comes into their range and is then made 'taboo'. Combine that with some kind of abnormal disturbance, psychopathy or inability to connect appropriately with reality, and it can lead to problems.'
I think this last is probably where the really significant discussion will lie with regard to AK.
kevin i don't think the ILE hold back evidence from the judge. if they had CCTV they would have disclosed it and it would be in the judges report.
confessions are helpful to the police but i cant see them supressing evidence from the court in order to extract further confession. i dosnt make any sense.
Ak has tried everything at an early age: drugs, promiscuous sex...she wanted something more MK was a good girl they didn't get along. AK had this fantasy of seeing the sufferance of a victim of violence and also she wanted to experience the sadistic pleasure of inflicting pain. She found 1 or more guys up to the job and she organized to meet at home then they assaulted M.
by the way Italian police is not trusted in Italy they've done a poor job on a number of cases. They are gross and still culturally influenced by residuals of the fascist way of dealing with public order: heavy hand and quick decisions
Maggie, thanks for the extra clarification on that. One of the worst things for me about this, beyond the obvious fact that anyone could murder another person at all, is that it looks as though she may have died a slow death, locked into her room alone- absolutely horrendous. So I was kind of hoping when I saw your post that new info had emerged while I was busy today, and that she'd died quickly after all. 
Whoever turns out to have been responsible/involved in this, I so want to see justice served fully for Meredith and her family. I can't believe that AK is changing her story AGAIN!!! Something is SO wrong with that girl...
Todger, that is an excellent find. Definitely looks like the basketball court because you can see the basket and net.
I am not really sure where some people here got the idea Amanda was attracted to Patrick Lumumba Diya. She mentioned a beautiful black man in her 2nd Oct entry and then Patrick over a month later but she doesn't connect the two in any way. I don't think Patrick is the beautiful black guy she mentioned. Perhaps though, it could well be the "fourth" guy everyone talks about.
A new detail about the case against Lumumba has appeared in the Daily Excess:
"Police have found a signal “trace” on a mobile phone of Lumumba’s “in the vicinity of the murder scene” at 8.38 pm that night."
"They are also conducting tests on his “sweat-soaked T-shirt” and on “medium length” hair mixed with his own hair."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/v...eredith-
killing
Does anyone really believe the U.S. government would have any interest in the guilt or innocence of Amanda? If so, don't kid yourselves...and don't leave the U.S.
todger, thanks for finding this. I didn't see it. I think the "grim" park is huge park on her way to the university with lots of trees.
Via Alessi and Via Galeazzo Alessi are actually the same. But you won't the 'Le Chic' in Live Maps. the alleys in Perugia are way too small to find it.
I've tried to locate points of interest and put them in an aerial map of Perugia. Locations are approximate:
http://img190.imagevenue.com/
img...a_122_555lo.jpg
Hope this helps a little bit. Maybe someone knows the exact locations.
RGIL- I agree that there is no evidence whatsoever on Amanda's blog to equate the 'beautiful black man' with PL. I definitely don't get the impression that they're one and the same either. She's far more gushy about the good dancer guy than she is about PL, and it doesn't sound as though she's even particularly attracted to him, although she was clearly flattered by his attention.
Deepen, thanks for the locations on the aerial picture; it adds something to the story to be able to see where the various places are located.
You're right about the alleyways! I had located Via Alessi in googlemaps and tried to navigate to it from the house using the microsoft map, but couldn't do it. I got lost around the cathedral/fountain (or whatever the large round thing is).
I can see the cathedral in the picture you posted, but I can't see the building I saw in microsoft map that looks like a prison. If I recall correctly, it was in the old part of town, quite close to the cathedral (I know the suspects are being held in the new prison which is out of town, but the old prison is distinctive because of its panopticon style layout).
While I couldn't find my way from the edge of town to a bar in the town centre, I am adding to my geographical knowledge, and I also know who Galeazzo Alessi is!
I also found some fliers for Le Chic: perhaps this was one of the ones the murdered girl handed out ...
http://deco-00.slide.com/r/1/100...ifw0J/
watermark
As an example of how confused the information/speculation is getting...this from KOMO in Seattle:
"The Guardian reported on Saturday that the police are following several leads, including one man's claim that he had received a puzzling text message from Knox on Oct. 31. "
Surely this is an error by the writer, as I have seen nothing here or elsewhere concerning the origin of the text message. The latest reports are saying that the message can be explained by the Grey's Anatomy episode where Meredith drowns/is in a coma (although that was last season in the States...is Europe a season behind?).
Here is a link to the story:
http://www.komotv.com/news/local...l/
11185091.html
Personally, I don't think the murder was premeditaded, so I can't see how the text message is related.
Sorry, but the Secret History thing is starting to get up my nose, possibly because it's my favourite book. Apart from the fact that a student has been murdered, I don't see one single similarity here. Not one.
The killers in the book are an extremely tight-knit, isolated, highly intelligent and erudite group of students. The accused killers here barely knew one another, appear to have moved in wide and flexible social circles, don't appear to be defined by any unusual intelligence or erudition, and aren't all students. The (male) student in the book is killed because he's threatening to reveal the others' participation in an earlier murder, and I could of course be missing something but I haven't exactly seen that here. Bunny's murder in the book has absolutely no sexual component, while this murder clearly does. The killers in the book plan and execute the murder meticulously, while this murder seems deeply disorganised and unplanned.
Seriously, I could be missing something, but the mere fact that the victim is a student doesn't constitute some amazing similarity in my mind. You could find that level of similarity to just about any murder novel ever written, if you tried hard enough. (Talented Mr Ripley, anyone? It's set in Italy!!! Amanda Knox must have read it!!! She must have identified with Tom!!!! Maybe there was a boat involved!!!!!)
Plus there's absolutely NO evidence that any of the suspects had ever READ the damn book.
It's always tempting to see literary links in a situation like this, where one of the accused had ambitions of being a writer. But I tend to agree with Lili here, even without having read Donna Tartt's book. In the history of crime it is actually very rare to find a proven link between a work of fiction -- book, movie, TV, whatever -- and someone committing a crime. Such links certainly exist, but they just don't happen all that often.
deepen,
On your map, you have circled the University of Perugia, instead of the University for Foreigners (where AK and MK attended classes). The University for Foreigners is one building directly underneath the letter "B" in Basketball on your map, and the "grim park" is a very little park in between the basketball court and the piazza (square) in front of the university. I spent the summer in Perugia, so I know these places fairly well... Everything else on the map seems to be in exactly the right spot.
This blog is certainly the most intelligent discussion of this case.Lots of critical thinking Many insights here that are much more to the point then the judges generalizations. I'd like to thank all the contributers. - Except the guy who blames Amandas actions on American violent films because Michael moore said so - your feeble minded
and pinecone who writes:Does anyone really believe the U.S. government would have any interest in the guilt or innocence of Amanda? If so, don't kid yourselves...and don't leave the U.S.
Your a complete idiot
todger, unfortunately I don't know where the prison is, but the old town of Perugia is looking really beautiful in birds eye view so I will probably spend some time surfing it. Maybe I will find it.
The flyer is splendid ... on some news reports they mentioned a website for 'Le Chic' but I couldn't find it?
ariel, thanks for your correction. Its obvious now that I see it. Its really a "two minute walk" or even less. Are you able to place the 'Le Chic' too?
deepen, I don't know Le Chic exactly, but Via Alessi is the one you have highlighted, and it's not very long... maybe 3 blocks...
I found a good map of that area at:
http://glastweb.pg.infn.it/works...mages/
mapPG.jpg
A bit more about the hunt for the Fourth Suspect:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle453071.ece
"The Algerian musician being hunted was spotted on CCTV near the death flat. He is thought have fled to France – and a bloody fingerprint on a cushion does not match the other three suspects. "
damian thought a possible name for this man might be Rasheed (#35006)
there are people murdered everywhere every hour but what makes this so fascinating (terrible word to use but...) the fact that this seemingly normal girl seems to be at the center of this. Amanda was the stimulus for all this to happen. Maybe none of these people would have ever done something like this on there own but with her talking shit to them they took her quite seriously and spurring each other on things got Way outa control Fast.If Amanda held her down thats a horrific image ,made more personally disturbing after watching her on youtube. She was somehow the enabler here ... but I may be wrong. We may never really know. Ever
There's something about her BF that makes me think of Leopold & Loeb (I'm from Chicago). RS is very cool. He thinks he is more intellligent than the ILE. I wouldn't be surprised to see RS & the father pin this on AK. RS's father has already taken steps to distance his son from her.
I notice that people are very careless with their facts in this case. For instance, Holly doesn't want Amanda to be too sympathetic, so she keeps bashing the UW.
It's a fine university. And despite what Holly said, hard to get into. From US News & World Report:
Fall 2006 Admissions Statistics
Overall acceptance rate: 34.3%
How hard would it have been for Holly to Google "University of Washington, acceptance rate" before making a remark?
Not familiar with Leopold & Loeb - but I agree - boyfriend is "too cool"
Isabella: Do you feel UW is under attack because of this case? I doubt it... nor is an institution of that size and history likely to be effected. Unibomber went to Harvard and I didn't see them closing the doors after he was arrested. Mostly I am not sure a posters personal opinion about a university is a "fact" of this case anyway (I read her posts just now and there is not any bashing at all...imo. But as long as we are on facts: it is a fact that acceptance rates can be very deceptive and really only deal with competition to get in and not completely with excellence of the school. Costs, geographical location & demographics, and school budget will all factor into the %. 34% is kind of better than average (80% of 4 years schools in US accept 50% of applicants, only 3% accept less than 25%) but not by all that much. I have lots of UW graduates as friends and I think they would agree. I have removed all snarky comments which originally appeared in the draft of this post.
Fall 2006 Admissions Statistics
Overall acceptance rate: 34.3%
(sarcasm on) Wow, you don't say! Only slightly more than one out of three gets in! (sarcasm off)
I'm not bashing anyone (except maybe the perp). I know intelligent UW graduates. I stand by my earlier contention that there's nothing impressive about a middle-class, privileged white girl getting into UW, especially as a liberal arts major. My point being, we have no evidence of Amanda being gifted, talented, or above-average in any way for her socioeconomic group.
Soobs, re your comment way, way above: You're twisting at balls I'm not pitching. I wasn't referring to any of your comments, but those of several others (such as Random Guy) who seem to have a certain reverence and protectiveness toward Knox. As Steve noted above, it's unlikely they'd have the same charity toward a young man in her situation.
You're one of the more prolific commenters here. You tend to be pretty good at analyzing evidence, but this isn't the first time you've flipped out regarding someone's innocent social commentary.
I will acknowledge I find her situation satisfying in a way I don't feel about most murder stories. Not like Harmony Creech's mother, for example, or Kevin Underwood, or Kyle Huff. Often, murder suspects are pitiable characters, despite their terrible actions. This young woman is more like Scott Peterson -- someone who seems to be used to having it her way, and is getting her comeuppance.
I also admit the thrill-kill idea is probably stretching things. Women who do that are rare and tend to have had very sad lives (from what I've read on this blog anyway). No, she seems like more of a jealousy or self-preservation killer. Every now and then, don't we hear about a young woman whose boyfriend sleeps with another girl, and then the girl gets her boyfriend to help her kill the other girl for revenge? This sounds more like one of those to me.
La Repubblica this morning says the police have AK on film entering her house alone at 8-43, wearing 'light coloured clothes'. This contradicts what I said yesterday about the cameras not covering the house. I was there yesterday, and it didn't look like there were pointing at the house...sorry. The article also says that someone wearing dark clothes may not have been picked up by the cameras!
Confused??? Me too. I reckon the police have much more than they have released and that they are trying to put pressure on A to tell them the dynamics of what happened in the house. A said yesterday that she wasn't there, and straight after, this camera footage of A 'opening her door' is leaked...
most likely the La Repubblica is just more disinformation. this could be 'to put pressure' on the suspects. the full cell records and any CCTV will all come out in the end, the absence of DNA from P the scene is a real mystery. If this is so it would be pretty incredible that he would have the victims hair on him but not left ANY at the scene.
...this video of A entering the house is in all the press here. I would be extremely surprised if this information hasn't come directly from the police.
also...there are no fingerprints of A in A's room!!
...and a light coloured dress and top, belonging to A, and believed to be the clothes she was wearing that night, were found at R's house.
There seems to be no footage of any other person entering the house from the camera. The police have since put on dark clothes and managed to enter the house without being picked up by the camera.
A witness claims he walked past the house at 2am that night, and heard raised voices.
Let's face it someone who changes their story repeatedly is, to the objective observer, not telling the truth. I'm so pleased AK's turnaround has been contradicted by concrete evidence. Knox is only implicating herself further. Her best defence at the moment is to keep quiet.
Erhw: yes I was hoping that the reports of a slow death was not reported right...:-(
Damian, are the screen grabs from this footage in the press or just the information? If images are there date/time logs on screen?
I recall the likely time it took for the victim to die was approx 30 mins. A terrible slow death certainly but not the hellish 2 hours that has been bandied about...
Rob...just the information so far...
There have been some questions here about the cell phones usage of the suspects in this case, especially that of PL's cell phone being detected by the cellular radio/multiplexer tower nearest MK & AK's home. So for those unfamiliar with how GSM radio signaling systems work I will provide some clarification based on what ILE statements said, and that were reported by media channels.
Cell phones, whether powered on or off, are continuously broadcasting a ping signal to the GSM network towers so that the network knows where they are so it can, within microseconds, tell the central call center switches where to send the radio connection to complete a call (to the called recipient) or send a call (from the caller). Note that I said "powered off" as in turning the phone off so that you cannot place a call or hear its ring from an incoming call, unless you power it back on.
This is different than removing the battery from the phone. If you remove the battery, the phone is not only powered off, it also can no longer send its ping and the network can no longer track its location. So when the police stated (again according to the MSM [main stream media]) that both AK and RS cell phones were turned off from sometime the evening of 01 NOV and the morning of 02 NOV when the network again detected them, I am certain they are referring to the fact that the cellular electronic tracking database showed that the respective phones where no longer sending their radio ping to any towers.
Now I am from USA where we have GSM, TDMA and CDMA networks, while European countries are completely standardized on GSM networks. IT makes no difference to the radio signaling technology I mention above that is used, all this radio equipment now comes with "location detection signaling" that can locate any cell phone with a charged battery installed within a 45 meter (~150 ft) radius. This is a law enforced upon manufacturers and cellular carriers if they wish to sell and install cellular equipment in the USA. I am most certain that EU countries also have such laws, but regardless I know that the equipment in Europe meets the same standardized specifications that are equal to those in the USA for GSM equipment.
To an investigator this tells us that these suspects were smart enough to know that they should remove their phones batteries so that their location could not be tracked by the network. And any pending investigation by the authorities into a person's claim that they were attacked, abducted and raped in their own home, these suspects could deny they were there at the time. Smart huh? Yes maybe as long as any other evidence is not left.
Such behavior (remove batteries) leads me to think that the sexual attack upon MK was premeditated at least to the extent of exactly what times the signals were lost. MSN did not report that the ILE said exactly the times the cellular database said these phones were turned off (and for a very good reason, because
(and for a very good reason, because the devil is always in the details).
Now in the case of LP we do have a lack of intelligence in this technology. First if it is
true that ILE read out is cell phone location within 45 meters of the closest cell tower to MK & AK's home, he obviously forgot to remove the battery. Until, that is, he met up with AK & RS at the basketball court at which point thinking they are all smart they remove their batteries. For AK & RS that's cool, they could say they walked over to RS's abode as they later stated. But for PL, well what's his explanation for his cell phone being detected at the same location and at the same time his and the others cell phones leave the network.
Oh oh, that's a mistake by LP. Too much saliva on his brain at the thought of an exciting sexual assignation to follow for him, to know that he has possibly made a mistake if
something goes wrong and he needs to cover his tracks. So instead why does he later switch the SIM card in his cell phone. He thinks he's smart about cellular technology and that
changing the SIM will cover his cell phones identity.
Switching the SIM card merely changes the IMSI [International Mobile Subscriber Identity] and possibly the number, carrier and subscriber data. IT DOES NOT CHANGE the IMEI
[International Mobile Equipment Identity] which is the hardware identity and id hardwired in
the physical electronics of the phone.
That is why if your cell phone is stolen and you report it to your carrier the carrier can disable the phone even if the thief swaps out the SIM card.
Both numbers [IMSI and IMEI] are broadcast to the network continuously. To alter a IMEI one would have to have some very expensive electronic programming equipment and some adroit electronic engineering skills, not something I think you or I or LP would have lying around in our homes or places of business or in our working
skill sets.
They got you LP. Yes, not too smart. Why did he even keep his cell phone? Why not ditch it completely, so it wouldn't be found, and report it stolen? Especially after something went wrong at the scene of his so called pleasure to be had evening. Or better yet why not just leave his cell at the bar turned off so no one can use it and go without it.
Why? Because he too panicked when his plans went wrong. Thought changing the SIM would cover his tracks as to any messaging and calls going on before hand and afterward. Not as smart as he (and they) thought they were.
Best guess by me is that he is the least culpable in this crime's planning, but that makes no difference. He is as culpable as AK & RS who most likely did the set up in the most tragic results of their plan. To me this is why the judge called it "a sexual game gone bad."
Just thought I would clear up the cell phone evidence in this case for the persons providing the great commentary on this horrendous crime. I have no doubt that some of the DNA
thanks Damian, i see La Repubblica online thinks P's story is plausible. I wonder if his phone was taken on a trip that night without him knowing?
Consider if the couple were setting him up that the boyfriend is a computer engineering major and can easily flash the IMEI on P's phone to change the ID. I wonder if P has actually got a totally new phone and possibly number? That would fit with his phone going missing. allegedly the couple switched their phones off at the same time that night.....
any sources for the phone of Patrick would be fantastic
I have no doubt that some of the DNA
evidence yet to be processed (which can take weeks depending on the priority queue it is given in the labs) will also place LP, PS and AK at the scene. If in fact MK struggled she only has to just scratch so called dead cells off the skin of any and/or all the suspects to have cellular DNA under her nails. Actually DNA can be extracted from any body fluid (blood, saliva, sweat, nasal mucus etc).
Let me know if anyone would like some clarification on how DNA evidence is processed and evaluated within a forensic paradigm. The following web site provides some good description on DNA and other crime forensics.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/sl...sic/
default.htm
As the local IE was quoted as saying by the MSM, "this case is closed". Except, of course, for the why and the gruesome how.
coyothewaits i just see that your on the IMEI as well, i hadnt read your posts while i made mine above, will do after coffee...
Ariel- is it documented anywhere that both girls were definitely studying at the Universita per Stranieri? I've been wondering about it for a while, since I'm sure I've seen it reported at least once that Meredith was at Univ. of Perugia, but then their housemate stated for the judge's report that they walked to classes together. Can anyone clarify this? I think its most likely that they were both at the university for foreigners, but it is possible that Meredith might have been enrolled at Univ. of Perugia.
Holly- I agree, if Amanda Knox was involved in the way it is appearing she was, and there was any premeditation, it was most likely jealousy-fuelled. It may have been purely sexual jealousy, but my guess is that although that is likely to have been a major factor, it was probably even broader than that.
Hi Rob:
Flashing the IMEI to change it would not have helped him afterwards, and obviously he didn't have the skill set or software to do it. The phone would have already revealed its owners identity to LE at the time or just before the crime took place.
What I am implying here with the cell phone analysis is that there are some smarts being demonstrated by the suspects but only for a plan that did not involve an out right homicide crime though it possibly would involve restraint of the victim thus making it borderline kidnapping and attempted rape at the least.
That once the scene started down with MK and the others it got out of control. And the results being tragic and overwhelming "smarts" go out the door in panic.
erhw..they both went to the university for foreigners.
Coyotewaits...thanks alot for that, it helps alot. I don't know anything about about these things so it seems likely I had misunderstood. Many reports did say however that he changed his IMEI the morning after. I did a bit of research, pressed a few stars and asterix's on my mobile, and it then seemed pretty straight-forward to change the IMEI. But maybe that isn't the IMEI? (the 14digit prefix added to your number.
Rob...I hope you are right. Why did P deny changing his 'phone'??? As you say, maybe because HE didn't. But wouldn't he have noticed his phone missing for the night??? I don't get it...
coyotewaits- thanks, very interesting, i knew a little about how this works but you've filled in some gaps for me. interesting link too.
rob- i had the same thought about PL's mobile phone possibly going 'walkies' from the bar without his knowledge. Especially now that AK's most recent version has her claiming that she wasn't there at all, and thus ADMITTING (by default alone, although i think she's actually said as much- was it to her mom?) in light of her earlier story that she has been trying to frame PL. If there really is no other evidence against him, that would be a way to explain away the incriminating 'cell ping'. It would not explain his having changed his sim card unless the phone was taken and never returned though- the only thing that would support his innocence would be a whole new phone. And it certainly wouldn't explain away the victim's hair being found on his person.
Damian
Doing a *#06# on the phone key pad only displays the IMEI. You can change it from the phone key pad.
As Rob pointed out you have to connect the phone electronically to a computer, obtain some flash software and burn a new IMEI into the phone. But that's not enough. You have to have a legit IMEI code and not duplicate. If you tried you most likely would just end up disabling the phone.
Suffice it to say we do not need to go into these details here.
It is rather to note accurately that LP did not have enough smarts to cover his trail after being there (in the immediate vicinity) with his phone (or at least his phone being there).
Furthermore, to demonstrate that he had enough smarts though to know that if he was part of a plan to commit rape and murder that he would have left his cell phone at home. And of course, worn a complete lab anti-contamination suit, hair, skin, hand cover plus a really good condom.
...the Swiss prof was interviewed for 6 hours yesterday. He confirmed that he was with P and a group of Belgian students at p's bar that night. Apparently, however, he was not able to confirm that P was at the bar all this time. Again, this is from La Repubblica. (as reputable as Italian newspapers get)
Damain and others.
You CAN NOT change an IMEI from the phones key pad. My typo.
Gotcha coyote..thanx.
If P was at his bar and then popped out for a bit,who was left in charge? It can't be too difficult to verify this. He wouldn't have left the customers to their own devices would he? I'm not sure whether the police have tracked down these Belgian students yet. I read that they had returned to Belgium...
The only conclusion one can draw from the facts stated in the MSM reports we have, and deciphered from LE and the judges documented reports, not from the so called MSM leaks, which are probably factual leaks but not guaranteed that they are reported accurately is that:
LP was at the murder location or in the vicinity at the approximate time of the attack.
Remember something. When leaks are made they are most likely one way statements. Moreover, when LE make public statements they are definitely one way only statements. Otherwise they would be press conferences open to Q and A's.
What I mean by "one way statements" is that the journalists and reporters do not have the opportunity to ask clarifying questions.
E.g. in my cell phone analysis above, I would have asked the LE what did they mean by their statements that the suspects AK & RS's cell phones had been turned off. Did they mean there were no calls either way or that the batteries were removed.
Further clarification. By saying LP's cell phone was at the location was it detected there by the location ping or did he make or receive a voice or data (text message) call?
erhw...A was speaking to her mother when she said that she had been wrong to accuse P and that she was not in the house that night. Why doesn't A's mother shut her mouth??!!
If not to protect her lovely daughter, then out of respect for Meredith and her family. (she's also said that her lovely daughter is very upset about the death of her'friend')
Anyway, from what I gather, A's lawyer, (who must be having fun with these lovely ladies) is playing down this new change in story...just a 'mother-daughter chat'.
What was the source of the statement quoted some time ago here and who was the source referring to making that statement that: around 20:00 - 20:30 hours on 01 NOV that AK received a text message from LP that he was "closing the bar and not to come to work."
And subsequently she text messaged "Ok, see you later."
If this is a fact, then LE has these actual text messages from the carrier's database storage. Though these messages could be innocuous as to the later crime they do not stand up to scrutiny that the bar was open. Another witness was quoted by the MSM as saying he found it closed at 19:00 hours.
It is possible someone else opened the bar for LP at say 21:00 - 21:30 but if so we will find out. The professor's statements become irrelevant if he can not state the time he and the Belgium students were at the bar. Unfortunately the news journal does not tells us these facts or who their source is/was. And besides six hours condensed to a few press words. One can obviously assume that the source was a leaked source and such source was not in the interrogation of the prof.
Discount it till we can establish it as fact from the official LE statements. Besides LE does not have to make any more statements publicly now that they have the suspects under detention legally, do they.
Damian: Please give us some insight into how the Italian LE work with the journalists in these kind of investigations, especially rather high profile ones like this case and the police shooting of the football fan Saturday.
I have to sign off now for some hours. Will check back with you sometime later this day.
One last interesting note to Damian in post to erhw.
A's mother is obviously an impulsive personality as I observe A also to be from the data on her personality shown through links here. Impulsivness is most likely a genetic trait more than it is a learned trait, but either way, like mother like daughter.
Denial also has it sanity purposes.
Waves.
Coyote - MSM reports the judge asked P why he changed his IMEI. We don't know if the phone itself wss changed and/or the SIM. I have often heard from shadier types 'admit nothing deny everything'. P must be wondering what has happened to him...he was riding high new business, baby et al. !!! Unless he is actually guilty of acting in this crime.!!! Its very easy to flash the IMEI on most phones just google it and you can see a ROM kit is available for about £20, just attach it and the phone ROM to your Pc and run really simple command line software. In the Uk you can get phones IMEIs changed for £10-15 at street markets or corner convenience stores. I think the UK gov has brought in new laws to make it illegal.
Coyote...I'm off to work now, but will get back to you. About the football fan shooting...
It happened at 9 o'clock yesterday morning at a service station on the motorway.
It became public 3 hours later.
Initial reports said that two large groups of hooligans (Juve and Lazio) had been involved in a mass brawl and that a Lazio fan had been killed, maybe by a pistol shot.
Initial reports also said that the dead man had a criminal record and was known for being violent.
Much later, the truth started to come out...
There were two cars. There was a fight between the occupants of these cars. (this is Italy and unfortunately, par for the course)
The fight was over...one car was leaving the scene. Gabriele Sandri was sitting in the other car. He was shot in the neck and killed by a policeman.
His lawyer says it was murder.
the slut seems to be even in deeper shit today. Italian news report that she was caught on a cctv placed in the car park in front of her house, which shows that she was getting in at 8,45 pm. So she'll have to stop to say bullshit and tell the truth. Anyway whatever she'll do, a thing is sure: she's fucked
i have 2 mobiles and 3 SIMS, i use them for different purposes like better local rates for one , better international for another. P probably had more than 1 phone, business & personal, international & local. His family was abroad in Africa and Poland. Meredith was using 2 mobiles while in Italy. It pretty common over here in EU.
A mobile going missing for a night is not unusual for me, I misplace them al the time but they 'turn up'.
'location detection signaling' only works very close to a mast and must be instigated by the carrier signaling to a specified IMEI. A turned off phone would not appear on a ping log. the periodic pings of a mobile by a radio or TV can be heard, a turned off one does not ping.
If P acted with his phone to cover his trail then he would have altered the time on his till as well. In Italy customers bills are settled after they have been sitting around for a long time - usually talking utter rubbish....
If A was angry & jealous that P was giving her the elbow & a job to Meredith - AK received a text message from LP that he was "closing the bar and not to come to work" - then she could've set revenge on both......
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2855320.ece
Here is the link to the article which says that Amanda was caught on CCTV entering the house- this must severely undermine her case- especially after changing her story AGAIN that she had not left her boyfriends house.
Question about RS- can anyone answer?
-Is it true he had only MET AK two weeks ago? Did they immediately begin dating? How well did they know each other?
-RS was said to call his sister, who is in the police force, upon discovering the crime. Other sources have said he and AK were waiting below the window of the house when the postal police arrived and calling the Carbineiri (?)...who was actually called?
-Is it confirmed that traces of blood were found on his underwear?
Just trying to separate facts from specualation...
Apparently the slut met Rs two weeks before in a party or club. She got laid with him straightway on the same night and the two went on smoking dope and fucking hard for a couple of weeks before the murder. RS said that he had sex just with an other girl before and in a traditionally way, which makes me believe that the slut gave him a good private tuition 'on the rest'. Apparently she's now discovered to be a fervent catholic and spends time with the chaplain of the prison talking about morals and attended the mass.
where is this info on the sex life coming from/
I don't know, it just seems weird to me how fast their relationship seems to have moved. According to the judge, they were both after "extreme experiences" that night- but after only two weeks of knowing each other? Seems odd.
By friends accounts, they both have been described as people of good character, but I personally feel that it is sometimes impossible to predict even what those who we feel are very close to us will do in given circumstances.
Rob- I have read a few different articles which say that they met two weeks ago and she started sleeping at his house immediately.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher407.xml
hmmmm this is known but right has a bee in the bonnet over the fact they slept together the first night of meeting. not to defend the chief suspect but i have not seen anywhere that they actually had sex that night and how far they went at all with any intimate contact. i have seen a photo A's room in the house and it is very small and cell like i wouldn't be surprised to learn that she preferred R's more comfortable apartment as a place to 'crash' from smoking dope and getting away from a crowded house. Even M seemed to hang out at Sophie Purton's as preferable to hanging in the house and having her friends come around.
from my knowledge of hash people dont generally feel like sex or intimacy when out of it and a bit paranoid.
this 'info' about traditional sex seems bogus considering the slant of the poster and no source supporting
does anyone have any photos of the rooms they have been mentioned to have been printed in italian papers? i would be interested to see them
what said about RS sex life really appeared on the news but I can't find right know. I suspect they might have sinned far beyond having sex before the marriage; I guess that AK and RS engaged in sick sexual behaviors like sodomy and oral sex. It is disgusting the thought of our western society breeding a generation of Godless youngsters. The quality of the Jesuit church that AK attended should be seriously questioned. These youngsters are free to sin, we have lost our mechanism of social control; the traditional family is definitely undermined and the authority of the husband/father is lost. He was the one making sure that a girl would have followed the Bible teachings and conserved her integrity until the marriage as God prescribes in the Holy Bible
right.....no
i cant really take on board your intolerance and revulsion towards the 'sins' you imagine so fervently.
you should save it for the sin we know - the brutal killing of a young woman
you should ready yourself for the 'sin' of an innocent man being framed for murder that looks like it could very well be played out. if this happens i hope you shout from the rooftops.
heres a good layout of the apartment crime scene -scroll down, enlarge
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher411.xml
Could we perhaps stick to discussing the case rather than 'Right''s overwhelming obsession with sex? I find it interesting that he/she sees Amanda Knox purely in terms of her sexuality ('the slut', etc) and is apparently incapable of posting anything that isn't focused on sex - but not that interesting.
Holly - "but this isn't the first time you've flipped out regarding someone's innocent social commentary."
Perhaps you weren't stating an opinion that the only people who could think she's innocent of the charge of 1st degree murder are old people (20-40 yrs older) who may have spent time abroad 20 years ago, and who are "working class." Perhaps I misunderstood your opinion. I do get frustrated with those who continue to believe everything that is reported, especially when it changes daily (the Times Online stated in one article that the judge said "the knife IS the one that killed her" then the next day, wrote "it is CONSISTANT" with a knife that could have been used." There is a difference in those two quotes, yet many people take it as Gospel. So yes, lately I've been low on patience for those that immediately "know" the score, and have decided HOW and WHY the murder occurred. However, I don't believe I have "flipped out." LOL You are entitled to your opinion, however.
That's an interesting link holymon. I can't understand why the picture of L is one of him in handcuffs and the others not. Discrimination surely.
I'm very interested in the third person, especially the laundrette description and certainly this takes the others out of the frame if found to have credibility.
First, thanks to everyone and especially damian for their reports.
Second, this is bugging me, re: AK's changing stories...
(1) She wasn't there and doesn't know what happened.
(2) She was there, saw MK and PL go into her room, heard screams and covered her ears.
(3) She wasn't there, and admits she was trying to "frame" PL in her second story.
Okay, so if you were not present, have no idea what happened, have no idea who could have been involved...why do you try to "frame" someone else? And why, in this case, would that someone else be Patrick?
I realize I'm trying to make sense out of a nonsensical story.
"First picture of Meredith's bedroom"
Grainy, but here it is:
http://snipurl.com/1tiyv
This part is fascinating and naturally arouses suspicions:
"Police said that Ms Knox's room at the cottage must have been "thoroughly cleaned" after the crime, as no traces of her fingerprints had been found in the room. She had occupied the room since the beginning of September. "
Thanks, John. I wonder has been blurred out at the bottom of the duvet?
i cant really take on board your intolerance and revulsion towards the 'sins' you imagine so fervently.
Rob, it's pretty clear that what "right" is really trying to do with his nasty terms is to insult and demean any women reading this blog. It's a common creepy-guy tactic: Find a female target, usually not present, and subject her to verbal abuse that women in the vicinity will overhear. If creepy guy is called on it, he'll say, "I wasn't talking about *you.*"
Appropos to some of the earlier exchanges, here's this from last week's Onion: Female Serial Killer Has To Work Twice As Hard To Achieve Notoriety.
Perhaps Knox really did put her fingers over her ears when she heard the victim's screams. But this was after she and the other assailants had left the bleeding victim in her room, locking the door behind them.
I've been away for two days & things have happened & clarified & been explained. That little cellphone seminar by coyotewaits is an ESSENTIAL bit of information for us all to remember, especially re the "location standards" of 150 feet & the two codings each has, etc. Wish we could fix it somewhere on steve's site so she could just tinyurl it in the future.
So, cw, Thanks for the patient explication, thanks for you notation on my theories (I got a beaut coming up, derived from AndyT) and thanks for your interweaving that knowledge with PL's actions & with RS & AK which presents for us how one of the smarter ILE investigators is actually viewing all this and has since late Sunday when they got the cell-phone traces & did the plotting, the same kind of plotting that todger & rob {?} did with google maps above. Also, ANOTHER On-The-Grounder checked in as ariel with helpful info. Please keep reading & chime in.
Now, I DO want to throw in a Monkey Wrench. Coyote's technical points are all "damners", BUT one of the assumptions is that the cell phones are all being used by the people to whom they are registered. I don't doubt that in the case of RS & AK, BUT the IDEA that PL's cell phone was actually being used by 4th Man/Mr X, he of the unflushed toilet, should not be hastily ruled out. IF, big if, ILE NEVER gets hard physical evidence of PL's presence in Meredith's room, then, given the physical evidence for Mr. X, it is likely that Mr X, known to PL, borrowed the cell phone and returned it--at some point, perhaps AFTER switching the card. (Though I suspect that ILE will be able to show or has that PL made the purchase for the new card personally.)
I'm suggesting this because with Mr X, there's just one too many persons in that little room for my tastes.
And NOW they are talking about a stilleto heel print they can't match???? MsX?? Which would make 6 people!! Egads, Grand Central Station.
RGIL - after reading the article, I assume it is her foot that is blurred out.
John: It's what I thought too but then I wondered why they blurred them out?
Ellen: thanks for removing your UW comments. You are a classy lady.
Evidently other posters came from such privileged backgrounds that getting into a good school like the UW would be a cakewalk. Work on your elitism. It doesn't help you solve any mysteries.
Maggie, while I think there's a bit of unconscious racism going on in the way that PL's arrest pic is being used, the pic of RS that is usually next to it is a CROPPED phot of him from one angle with two cops on either side & him in handcuffs. They wanted a "close-up" of RS as the Dan Radcliffe clone.The unconscious racism part--for me-- is that they could do the same crop with PL's pic but don't. Still, this may be the ONLY good shot of PL that the photogs have.
The arrest photo(s) of AK show her wearing Chicago White Sox sweat pants and a matching top with hood, but the top edge of the hood is over her eyes & mostly her nose, with her handbag slungover the tight shoulder. In early versions the cuffs were fully shown, but I've seen a later one where they were blurred out. The decision to go with others is the loss of "eye" contact. And they DO have many others of her & even of one of her & RS lightly kissing just before he leaves the scene. BUT the editors LIKE the one's where she's pensive or biting her nails. For them, the "story" of those photos is GUILTY!
The police also have CCTV of the Algerian leaving at around 23:30. If these really are the only two images the police have (I doubt it) and only Knox was wearing clothes that triggered the CCTV then this implies that she left with the Algerian. I doubt that this is all the police have. If the Algerian left alone why didn't he trigger the camera's when he arrived?
If Knox was alone when she entered the house then this contradicts her earlier statements about going to the house with Lumumba and Sollecito. This news would actually tned to help them. I'm sure the police have other pieces up their sleeves though.
They seem to be leaking just enough info to keep the public convinced of the guilt of the suspects but not leaking so much so that the suspects could start constructing their lies more intelligently. What is really interesting is if they do have images of the three entering the house but they are putting pressure on Knox by saying that she went there alone. She is the weal link here. Lumumba and Sollecito are playing the "It wasn't me" game and will stick to that as long as possible. The police are happy to have them lying now sonce later when the police reveal all the evidence and the suspects have to modify their stories the police will have weeks of the suspects on tape lying.
Random - blurred out of vestigal respect for the feelings of Meredith's family, though IN THAT CASE, they shouldn't have run photos at all. However, I do come down on the side of disclosure, for the most part and, well really, WE here should all be clearly aware of what we are talking aobut & speculating around.
For me that moment was the pic NOTW ran which a photog snapped from the road way above Meredith's corner of the building which showed the top of the bed and the bloody three-finger print on the wall which streams down the wall. The caption is a bit off (is this the killer's hand or perhaps Meredith's?)--its bloody well the killer's hand, given where we see Meredith's body is located in today's leaked pic.
Someone in that group after the deeper blow (more on my theory shortly) TRIED TO STAUNCH THE BLOOD FLOW. Realizing that was NOT going to work, they stood up, turned left while standing on the bed and (I think its a right hand print) tried to wipe the blood off using the wall. If it had been Meredith, she'd have no reason to take her hand away from the wound--if her hands were then free to be placed there even.
The hand is likely RS's or Mr. X, as per what I'm now thinking, the knife is still in Amanda's hand.
Kevin, yes you are correct & I think either rob or damian noted parts of that too--its both a PR spin with the public ("we've really got stuff") and that working THROUGH the evidence takes time. Because if they had had these analyzed images last week, they would have been in the material summarized by the prelim judge. (As in "yet clearly a female person wearing a light-colored dress, similar to that of Ms Knox which was recovered from Mr. S's apartment, is seen entering the apartment at XX:XXpm.")
As to RS & his father throwing Amanda to the wolves, well, OF COURSE!!! Especially as she's gone back to the original story of staying with him all night (which the pings make bogus) while he's sticking with the "she came over much much later". So now its an Offical Story Contradiction.
Evidently other posters came from such privileged backgrounds that getting into a good school like the UW would be a cakewalk.
Absolutely not. The point is that Amanda Knox did.
Work on your argument skills, rather than making ad hominem attacks.
Yes Robert M., poor Amanda at her tender age has apparently not yet learned a critical life-lesson that all heterosexual females are apt to learn at some point, most by unfortunate experience: that males of the species will likely (and are indeed sometimes taught to) "deny, deny, deny" when it comes to their sexual dalliances and/or criminal wrongdoings...sometimes to the point of absurdity.
It seems clear to me that it was not for Knox's benefit that her room was wiped clean. Also Sollecito's prints would have been expected there. Lumumba is a possibility but I would guess it was the Algerian who ordered her to wipe down her room. He had been there before, Meredith had complained about him and he probably didn't want his prints in a house where a murder had occured, whether he delivered the fatal blow or not.
Now this just makes me wonder why the Algerian then didn't bother to flush the toilet (I'm obviously assuming hte shit is his). Did he fear leaving prints on the handle and therefore not flush without realizing that his shit could just as easily send his ass to jail.
He seems to have also left a bloody print in Meredith's room.
In any case, it wasn't for Knox's sake that her room was wiped down.
Robert M
Are the police required to submit all evidence they have to the judge or can they just submit enough to get the suspects reprimanded to prison?
> To an investigator this tells us that these suspects were smart enough to know
> that they should remove their phones batteries so that their location could
> not be tracked by the network. And any pending investigation by the authorities
> into a person's claim that they were attacked, abducted and raped in their
> own home, these suspects could deny they were there at the time. Smart huh?
But not as smart as leaving the batteries in place/phones switched on and placing them in a place (such as RS's house) in order to create an electronic alibi for location.
If someone's going to go to the trouble of acquiring some knowledge of a technology in order to evade apprehension (which appears to be the point of removing the batteries/switching off the phones), it's a shame that the consequences were not thought through: having *no signal* is surely suspicious while having records of a signal showing the location as place X rather than place A would seem to be more sensible
Ah, sorry, this wrap-up theory gets a little long (you know I do that) so I'm breaking it into 3 parts.
Part 1 AndyT's Insight and What It means.
I'm going to elaborate on an AndyT observation that passed on unremarked above. (See also Random Guy's link to crasy girl story.) Even I only focused on it because I'd been reading today's (11/12) Daily M & Daily T & the T & the G. Two of them have photos of (blond-hair, well-built & athletically-pretty but with goof facial abilities who takes after her father) Amanda's MOTHER -- who is very smallish, dark of feature, dark-haired, very bookish (according to Chirs Mellas himself on his mirrored MySapce) etc. Serious oriented.
I looked at Edda and thought, where have I seen her before? Light bulb is that if presented with body types, we'd place Edda as either Meredith's mother or aunt. (cf especially the Kercher family photos of Mom.)
Meredith's "confession" is TRUE -- but shifted in emphasis [which Holly saw early & Steve reiterated above], especially her purported reaction when pressed with "You held her down." When it became her TURN in the violence game, the knife being passed around between the players BEFORE another sex act could occur (note location of Meredith's underpants in the published photo in relation to her leg),
Amanda looked down and "saw", through the blur of hash & booze, her Mother. Because Meredith's general features mirrored those of Edda. And that's why it wasn't just another little cut along the neck as she was told how to do. At that moment, Amanda wanted to hurt her Mother for being able to "get men" she also desired [note how much Chris M is a Younger Version of A's father, which speaks to Edda's own turn-ons], except that, with her frontal-lobe barriers undermined due to the various drugs [cf via Google frontal-lobe & seniors], the knife went ALL the way in.
Mr. X, on left if you are looking down," yells "You stupid bitch", puts his right hand & palm over the wound, which keeps bleeding, gives up and stands & wipes his hand on the wall. The other two don't do anything of much use; likely towels, odd pieces of clothing, etc. Meredith is making sounds, Mr. X slaps her across the face, & between that & the blood loss, Meredith goes into shock (mercifcully, I can only hope that this idea is completely correct).
Part 2 - Amanda has really told the truth but with symbols
This next part gets a little Jungian, but its the millstones through which I'm processing the scenario. What Amanda has said to the ILE is the closest she can get to the REAL truth at this time, that and "I can't take it anymore". As coyotewaits quietly slipped in: "Denial can be Sanity", i.e. your need to grip sanity over the insanity you know you've done leads you to deny EVERYTHING. But as Jung did see, your brain can present that insanity in other ways -- such as saying a black man took your friend into another room & raped her & beat her & likely killed her -- A black man -- A black person -- A black shadow -- The shadow of Your Conscious Self -- which you have let overwhelm your consciousness -- because you never even knew it was there.
Jung's understanding of the Shadow is way more sophisticated then just RCC "sin". BUT, too, the Jesuit understanding of sin is itself way more sophisticated than a kid's Baltimore Catechism puts it (or used too--you'll have to Wiki or Google to see what I mean).
Again, this is NOT to excuse. Its a way of understanding what came through the doors she opened with her excesses, and why.
Amanda is directly responsible for Meredith's death. She inflicted what would prove to be the fatal wound. No one there responded humanely because of drugs & fear (ambulance to hospital = admission of restraint, battery & rape = 5 to 10 years jail & OhMyGodWhatIfSheDies???). But because of drugs & fear & time involved & because the death was unpremeditated, the cover-up was singularly inept. (Cell-phones, partial clean-up, etc.)
And Amanda was the driving force for the Sex Game happening THAT night as Amanda ALONE knew Meredith was returning to London late Friday, and that the roommates were gone already. PL would not have know & RS might have been told but was more content to spend time hashing away. Still, being certain guys, the idea was attractive. BUT the idea and the "let's do it" came from Amanada.
But WHY such overwhelming anger at a person rather like herself she had know for just 3 or 4 weeks and actually seemed to like?
Random Guy in London was like:
> Thanks, John. I wonder has been blurred out at the bottom of the duvet?
I think that's probably the dead girl's foot. If you look for pictures in the European media you'll probably find it visible.
The police aren't playing. Below is a link to two photos, one of the shoe print in the blood stain and one of Sollecito's shoes.
Shoe print
Click on image two to see the other image. Note, the blood print is of the top (the portion nearer the toes) of his shoe. The orientation of the photos is confusing at first. Bottom line is our boy is in dep trouble.
Part 3a Normal Dau-Mom Stuff plus...
Amanda was not jealous of Meredith per se, how could she be? as Meredith only partied in groups and with people Amanda didn't hang out with -- note just that one boyfriend of short duration. Amanda, elucidating from part one above is in a NORMAL adolescent development thing, daughter-mother competition (boy, have I've several versions of this myself), which has been jet-fueled deep down by Chris M as Mom's lover/husband. A's first reaction when told of him & Edda's plans was likely "Ewww" the same reaction to Amsterdam's Red Light district. Still, given that Chris duplicates/stands in for her Dad & Amanda's 14 at the time, its also bestillmybeatingheart. Totally conflicted about this and in Denial about the deeper aspects of its existence. Meredith had just enough of Mom's traits to get Amanda's deep anger displaced over onto her in Amanda's unconscious/Shadow way of thinking. And that's normal too: the psychs call it transference within the client-counselor realtionship.
Even for Jung, while indulging in booze etc is ALSO a mark of adolescent growth, its very very dangerous if one has no idea of the Shadow being there, let alone its potential. And from what little we know of her reading/education, whatever she might have by rote tossed out about, say, Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter in a High School lit paper, it was shallow. A more apt NH book would have been The Marble Faun (set in Italy). Indeed, she would have been better off if she HAD read Donna Tartt's Secret History which has as its overarching theme what happens when the Dionysisan Spirit is let loose by those without experience in doing so. Not only do people die, but the instigators get destroyed also, both literally & metaphorically. (Here's the shift from myth through novel into reality: While celebrating Dionysus, the female Maenads encounter Orpheus & further maddened by his music, tear him apart. While re-enacting a bacchanal rite, a local bystander is killed because the student group in Tartt's novel don't know what they are dong. Meredith is inadvertently killed because while enacting a form of a bacchanl rite, sexualized violence, Amanda does not recognize, and didn't care at that point, that she's let her shadow self take over control of her hand.)
Part 3b. ... Denial is a choppy river.
Amanda's return to the original witness statement means that she has NO coping skills for dealing with her own Self-Induced Encounter with Her Shadow Self. Her comments to the prison chaplain show also she has no real grounding in Jesuit RCC knowledge either. She's in this boat she built and has neither a kayak paddle nor a traditional pair of oars. And the boats crowded with others and its sinking.
So, until ILE leaks more stuff [oooo, those shoe overlays!!], or until there's a dramatic confession [just when does the DNA & fiber stuff get back, eh?], Amanda is going to keep on denying & denying & denying perhaps right up to a trial. Because only through DENIAL can she keep that shadow self at bay, and she needs to do that as she knows what happened when she didn't. She'll be denying it essentially even when/if she takes a deal, if the ILE even offers one.
So that's how I "understand" what happened to Meredith Kercher. Out of her displaced anger towards her Mother, fueled by her own late adolescent urges, augmented by her lack of a truly positive relationship with her Father [he abandoned her again by remarrying], and immediately fueled by an extended use of hash & booze together, Amanda organzied a "climbing party with the boys", to climb the edges of a different experience. Alas the safety lines weren't in place, the piton was in her hand, and she couldn't "see" Meredith in the way she could "see" her friend Andy S who had "trusted his life to her many times".
40 to Life if she keeps Denying. And even over those decades, I doubt she'll figure this out unless the prison chaplains she encounters are better confessors than I'd expect (a spiritual counselor rather than just a "ten Hail Marys" kind of guy). And even understanding isn't going to change what's going to happen to her.
But its more than Meredith will ever now have. I wrote somewhere way above, from what I can read & see, I might want to do things with Amanda, but I'd rather have had time talking & discussing stuff with Meredith. Much rather have had THAT opportunity.
OK, I'm done. That's the How and more importantly the Why for me. Go at it if you will.
But do see AndyT's original post of 11/11 above.
Kevin, those photos look like the right and left of a pair of shoes. The first photo looks like the left shoe, not a shoeprint. You can see what appears to be a shoestring. The second photo is obviously of a right shoe.
I take that back, the first photo looks to be an inverted photo of the right shoe as well. Still see the shoelace however.
Here is the text that accompanies the shoe pictures from Reppublica, englished via babelfish:
Next the print of the shoe found again from the experts beside the body of Meredith. The medical report is hour to winnows of the scientific police. The shoes, but also the knife to serramanico ' Crkt' with a blade of 8,5 cm and one width of 2 cm, have been catalogued between reperti on which in the next few days the technicians of the scientific police and the part experts will make the assessments irripetibili. The outcomes of these examinations would have to be ready within thursday. From the relation it emerges that the police has seized also a pair of shoes of Amanda Knox, marks ' Skechers': but "the design - the agents write - does not turn out compatible with the traces recovered" in the room of Meredith. To the correspondence between the print and the shoe of Prompt, the technicians are arrive to you overlapping to the computer the design of the sole of the shoe, (rendered transparent) to the track: the diameter of the trace on the pavement is of approximately 36 millimeters, that one of the sole of shoe 35. "the minimal differences between the two measurements - it is still written in the relation - can verosimilmente be determined from the mechanical action on fluid substance
The first image is a computer overlay of the shoe print in the blood and the shoe print of Sollecito. That is why you see the shoelace. The other image is just of his shoe print. I should have made that clear.
They say the minimal differences are because of the reaction of the fluid (blood) to the mechanical pressure of the shoe.
kevin re "or can they just submit enough to get the suspects reprimanded to prison?"
In the US its the latter re request for higher or high bail or even denial of bail which is 95% of the case in anything like a murder. Its understood that evidence processing won't be complete.
In the US, however, before trial actually starts, all evidence has to be presented by both sides to each other. The No Suprise Rule with some exceptions. How true in Italy, I've no idea.
The Evidence Leaks
Whatever you might of the small town ILE, the "science police" as they've shown with results & as the various pictures of them at working that show up at some of the links, have to be run at the regional if not national level and certainly appear to be on-the-spot. Which includes, as coyotewaits wants us to understand, how top of the cell-phone evidence they were too.
Who's ever leaking evidential stuff now is DETERMINED that the work of the science police be appreciated for its quality. From what they are leaking, while I have my doubts as to PL, they do have Mr. X there, and Amanda above all [re the finger print in blood -- a photog of THAT would be a real coup but hasn't made it out yet] and are seemingly closing in on RS, though those sneakers are likely very common.
Amanda's Dad may be the KEY
I'm giving Amanda's father about another week to get over the shock and then his MBA/Big Corp skills [let's contain this before it affects the bottom-line this quarter] will kick in. He's familiar with "running the numbers" and as more & more of the evidence testing comes back, the numbers won't look good.
What he then does re advising the lawyers & Amanda will be interesting to see. I don't think her mother will get to the same place unless Dad spends a lot of time building the case for her. Cognitive dissonance operating with maternal ardor. But her father would appear to be a Best Deal kind of guy.
Kevin and Todger: Thanks! Those are great.
Robert M. wrote:
Hmm... I'm not sure. Given the competition for men between mother and daughter as one news report stated above and her anger towards other women, extreme jealousy could be the cause.
Amanda searched hard for a job in Perugia and it took her some time to convince P to give it to her. From there on she was in her own group. As you can read in her blog she liked it there and - more importantly - was needed.
Then Meredith came to her one day and asked her if she could get the same job in the same location. AK wouldn't be the only foreign girl there anymore. And apparently PL had a crush on Meredith.
I re-read Amandas blog because I remembered that she mentioned a lot of men and counted all passages in the text where AK meets other people.
In total she encountered 24 persons, 42% of which are relatives. Of the 14 strangers she met, 86% are men.
Here is a detailed table:
http://img120.imagevenue.com/
img..._122_1078lo.jpg
At least she liked to write about her encounters with male strangers. She rated 6 positive, 5 neutral and 1 negative.
She only writes about 2 female strangers and rates one negative, one positive.
This somehow emphasi