It does seem bizarrely out of character for her. Usually people with that kind of kink show at least a subtle hint of it that you can look back and spot. I don't see that with her. Maybe she was just really good at putting forth *exactly* the public face she wanted people to see though?
...sometimes the most self-assured people are inwardly the most insecure. IN MY OPINION ONLY, I would hazzard a guess that this girl is a follower and a pleaser...she does whatever it takes to fit in. I also bet that with possible insecurities she also befriends males more than females and uses drugs and alcohol to be able to overstep her (obviously deeply burried) boundaries. I also feel that she was playinig SIMON in this. IMO, she followed suit and it led her to a jail cell. Of course, this could all be wrong...and of course, I mean no offence to any family or friends reading at Steve's. This is such a sad story all around.
You all should go read her blog. The story about Edgar and his little brother. It may change your impressions of this young woman.
I just don't know what to make of her, myself.
Steve
I don't know what to make of her either, but I don't get that twisted, kinky vibe from her, even after reading that short story. It seems more to me, that she's seen a twisted, enabling, co-dependent relationship close up. I don't know that it means she "is" co-dependent, but she's been very close to some very warped people.
Great job on finding that YouTube video. It's astonishing how pretty much everyone has footprints on the web and how those prints can be traced.
Watching Amanda's video and looking at her MySpace page makes it all seem surreal. She seems every bit normal as your typical woman out on the street and this makes her involvement quite bizarre. Still, she may very well be innocent - I have no doubt there will be a lot more news to come over the next few days.
RIP Meredith Kercher. I hope justice will be carried out.
Did anybody read the "Italy" blog entry on her myspace? Under the 5) paragraph, I believe she may be describing meeting Meredith for the first time; she's definitely talking about her future boss Patrick, whom she describes as the "most beautiful black man" she'd ever met... Just a interesting, rather chilling, little entry in light of what happened just a few short weeks later.
Under a picture of "Roomates!" someone (a relative?) posted this:
"September 4, 2007 7:32 PM
I think you girls should get a very big lock on you door, or better yet a large dog..... "
Steve!
Thanks for taking a 5-yard check down pass and turning it into a 77-yard touchdown run! And to have spotted the on-top-of-it Euro reporters so much online material, and STILL to have come up with that YouTube video. Which is why I sent the idea on to you to see if it fit. And good, tight, summary writing of it all "above the fold".
re the title: I was thinking of Mark Twain's "[American] Innocents Abroad" rewritten with the darker vision behind the plot/theme elements of Henry James's "Portrait of a Lady"--but James would still only have hinted at these kinds of things, if that. Amanda as a real version of James's "Daisy Miller" will be "buried" alive for several decades on Italian soil, though how she's acted is as a chip off of the "Daisy Buchanan" character in "The Great Gatsby". Except it appears she has a remnant of a conscience from her Jesuit schooling at Seattle prep.
http://www.seaprep.org/s/708/start.aspx
But the LEAKS! The Italians have semi-formally released parts of the "witness" statments [they have to call them that as no one to this time formally charged]. Note that Patrick Lumumba has not made a statement they choose to release.
http://tinyurl.com/2rr4n6
This link is to The Times excerpts. Note that the present top of page photo is of Raeffelle Sollecito & Amanda Knox likely on Friday late day standing by what may be a police car. Her appearance of vacant shock is evident.
From the statements as released, RS looks to have verifiable alibis for much, if not all, of 11/1-2 hours in question. Note how he specifically states his cotnact with his father, his other calls, his time surfing on his PC, etc. Especially re the last point, that's easily verifiable, because if it wasn't him on the PC, then who was it and that the Italian police can ascertain from other statements. Note also his statement on inconsistencies as based on "what Amanda told me."
Amanda's statement as released doesn't mention RS at all. Which, if RS's version is the most accurate, puts Amanda very far down the hole to direct accomplice, holding Meredith down while PL raped her [the ILE's current public theory that it took two people based on the evidence], rather than shivering with fright in the kitchen.
It could very well be that PL wouldn't take no from Meredith that night, that Amanda was so far drunk/drugged she thought it "fun", accessing her own "story plot", and that MK was not serious in saying no, and so was present for the rape and even helped. I suspect she was indeed in the kitchen when PL killed MK, the "what did I just do" realization starting to cut through the drugs/drink when she heard what she heard.
Why didn't PL kill Amanda? Almost a natural step, you'd think. PL hadn't planned to kill MK and so, the likely least wasted of the two, knew there was too much evidence that had to be disposed of, evidence that would, as it did, readily link him to Amanda and so to MK. The nex
Ah!! there's a character limit to Haloscan perhaps.
continuing from above:
Why didn't PL kill Amanda? Almost a natural step, you'd think. PL hadn't planned to kill MK and so, the likely least wasted of the two, knew there was too much evidence that had to be disposed of, evidence that would, as it did, readily link him to Amanda and so to MK. The next few hours are spent making things look like a burglary after PL gets Amanda to focus.
Unless there's a call or text message to him before 10 am the next day, RS comes into the story only after Amanda walks--which means his flat is relatively close by-to his place. At this point, the ILE must think that he went back to the apartment with Amanda before they made their "official" return, but so far he's sticking to the only-at-noon version, and, as I noted above, he's got a lot of verifiable time points in his favor, except perhaps for 9ish to 11:30. There is mention of a shoe print in blood that fits his but whether its inside MK's room was not specified.
Of course, this tale, without PL, wouldn't be happening. If group sex with MK had been just Amanda's idea when with RS, MK's brush-off would have been accepted. And then there would have been no pressure on Amanda to cover-up, as there would have been nothing to cover-up.
It was her complicity in the rape, which was the horror cutting through the drunk fog of her mind while in the kitchen, that immediately led her to agree to the coverup when PL told her MK was dead. Yeah, "Daisy Buchanan" to be sure in that moment.
This supposes, of course, that RS wasn't there for all of it, and that PL won't have something on the other two that is more convincing to the Italian magistrates.
But the ILE sure think that all 3 were in on the cover-up.
In light of what happened, this quote from her last blog entry jumped out at me: "life... [is] about who you are and what you choose to do and who you choose to spend your time with." It's a shame she didn't reflect more deeply on that point.
Most of these comments are way too sympathetic to the female suspect. Her ditzy writing reeks of narcissism.
would be more easily explained were it not for her gender, and her demonstrable intellect.
"Demonstrable intellect," huh. Well, probably compared to the average criminal, which is a pretty low standard. But it's not hard at all to get into UW, and she was only what, a sophomore? Majoring in liberal arts? And anyone who wants to pay (or borrow) the money can do one of those year abroad programs that are a lot more about partying than they are about learning.
She looks like a dim, shallow party bimbo with delusions of future grandeur who was trying to make her uninspired life interesting by indulging in excessive behavior and hanging out with sketchy characters who probably gave her drugs.
I'll bet she's mulling *right now* over how she can turn this into fame and profit. She'll cast herself as a misled victim, try to pin it all on the guys, and try to score a book deal and a TV movie off it. Then she'll try to use that notoriety to land a rich boyfriend and launch a screenwriting career.
Holly, I was stating something pretty obvious where her gender was concerned. Women are rarely involved in such crimes. But man, when they are, they are often the worst sort of crime imaginable.
Like I said, I don't know what to think yet, but I don't find myself feeling any sympathy for Amanda Knox. Call it a gut feeling. There are a lot of reports in the British & Italian press of her giving several people around her there in Perugia bad vibes.
And I thought I saw a strong streak of narcissism, too.
If she was actually kind of a mastermind here, you can guarantee she'll use every "feminine wile" in the book to gain sympathy from people. She's probably been doing that most of her life, if she truly is that kind of person.
"I can't remember if Raffaele was there that night," she said. "I remember waking up in his bed at his house and that I went back to my house where I found the door open."
She added: "I want to tell you what happened because it's left me really shocked and I am really scared of Patrick. I met him on the evening of 1 November [when Meredith died]."
Something about this just sounds like a liar talking. She "can't remember" if her boyfriend was there ... (convenient) ... she makes a point of explaining why she "want[s] to tell you what happened," like she's being so helpful and doing them an unexpected favor by answering questions in a murder investigation when she's a suspect, and making a big deal of how shocked and scared she is. Like she's just an observer rather than a participant. It's all about her and how she felt. And if she was so fearful, why didn't she rush to the police immediately?
I need to amend my post No 2 conclusion as "[Perugia] police Chief Arturo De Felice told Reuters by phone... Miss Kercher was a "victim and nothing more".
[Felice] told the Daily Mail that: 'All three participated in this crime. The motive was sexual and the victim rebelled.'"
http://tinyurl.com/yro37r
the quote is in an Aussie paper but I've seen it also in one of the "other" UK papers.
Not only for the cover-up, but for the rape & murder, Italian LE believes it has enough evidence to place all 3 of them in MK's room AT THE SAME TIME.
Given that questioning continues, which ever one of the three sets of stories becomes most congruent with the forensic facts (blood tests -- the cell phone location pings -- the cell phone calls themselves -- fignerprints --shoe prints, etc which have all been referenced in the reports), is the one who has the best chance of doing less time. I have no idea what Italian law covers for what even LE was calling "unpremediated murder" but which has "aggravating" circumstances [i.e. the rape] in US parlance.
Who chooses what avenue of defense will be interesting to see work out. RS in the reputed witness statemetn is already saying he lied to protect Amanda. Another report on Amanda says that LE reports "she keeps changing her story. Still no "leak" on what PL might have said though it is also reported his story is at odds with the other two.
After the lawyers get to them tomorrow, after formal charges are laid -- again, note the different LE process in Italy; no "Mirandarizing" going on & LE has up to 5 days after arrests to bring charges -- some one is going to offer a deal. Perhaps RS as his father is a lawyer from Bari. Amanda's mother is now in Perugia.
As are the Kerchers, who don't know yet when they can pick up Meredith's body.
As with so many of these cases, I feel so sad for what Meredith must have experienced in her final moments. And disgust at these people who somehow think taking a life to cover up their own evil is a logical act. Even if we were to accept Amanda's explanation of how things went, we have to wonder why she somehow thought the "bumps" and "screams" were scary, and she could "imagine what was happening," but not be disturbed enough to call police? It just doesn't jibe.
Robert M. - as always, you offer a well thought-out theory that pieces together what we know now. Not for nothing, but I thought I read RS's father is a urologist? The article you linked did say his sister is with the Italian police, however.
"And anyone who wants to pay (or borrow) the money can do one of those year abroad programs that are a lot more about partying than they are about learning."
For some perhaps. Most people return from that/those years abroad with language skills, life experience and widened horizons, and the bit of partying one also finds time for is how one makes friends for life of perfect strangers. So sad for Meredith's parents that they shan't ever have a chance to know the woman their daughter was becoming. RIP, Meredith.
[NOTE: for me, the HaloScan post # symbols appears in blue, BUT there is no number that follows it.]
re Steve's first comment way above:
"I just don't know what to make of her, myself."
That was my fascination when I first read through the UK reports, before tipping Steve. Followed immediately by the realization [& this next is a Thought Experiment, not any comment on MK] that AS THINGS THEN APPEARED we'd be having the same reactions if the dead person was AK and the perp was MK. The same tributes, the same consoling words, the same shock of loss, etc. And we'd likely find stuff to fixate on from MK if she'd created an online presence even half as visible as AK. Amanda's presentation is consistent, even right down to the you'd-expect-some-small-n-narcissim in the blog work of any 20-something, full of beans person with a penchant for writing. The whole on tour with the Austrian side of the family, that appears in the second mirror link, is easily expandable into a reflective their world/my world travel narrative -- topped off by the comic relief of the encounter with German bureaucracy! These are field notes for better, finished productions.
But Big-N Narcissim? No, I don't read that. Heck, on the main page, I "see/read" little of the usual stuff you'd get there.
This struck further home to me by the fellow UW student Andrew S., a climbing partner of AK's, who forthrightly said when asked "I've trusted my life to Amanda several times as her climbing partner." [Not exact but in MSNBC-Seattle story {which for a TV station write up is very detailed and well done} & picked up by many of the UK papers for mystery of personality it hints at.]
No, if Amanda was the one dead, we'd be talking about an intellectually talented (note her certainly acceptable self-praise in the blog about grasping reading German by the end of Harry Potter & her determination to do the same with Italian by way Potter also) person with great person skills (to be sure the "brassy" outgoing American in some accounts, but we are known for that over there, aren't we?, and another report said MK and AK had hit it off anyways) who at least had found her "happy place". Why, she'd even found a young, pre-professional Italian fellow with hair & glasses & even a scarf to match Daniel Radcliffe's as Harry Potter. And all within 2 months of hitting Perugia!
How could it have turned out the way it did?
MELLY -
You are correct. His father is an urologist and his sister is with the police.
What did she confess to exactly? They keep saying she confessed. Also, what are Patrick and boyfriend saying? I don't understand what happened.
So how could it have turned out otherwise?
Step by small step on that very night, nothing planned except let's meet at 8 pm from PL, with no psychopathic tendencies present in Amanda, and no Big-N narcissism necessary at all; all over the course of 3 hours on an mid-fall's night, likely fueled by nothing more than booze, of misunderstood intentions & invalid assumptions certainly by Amanda.
And then, yes, the pivot moment when Amanda as a person refused to "hear" Meredith as a person--literally. (Put my fingers in my ears.) And did not act.
Whether she was in the room at the moment, or truly in the kitchen covering her ears [& why had they all been in the kitchen {if true}?], it represents the point where Amanda LIED to herself ("I'm an all-american girl this is not happening I did not cause it I am not participating in it"), and -- by failing to act -- allowed Meredith's death. And the failure to act may have been as simple as boozed confusion over what might happen next, realizing only at the "Thud" what had JUST happened. But under Italian law, according to one LE statement, failure to act is still a murder charge.
That's the best presentation her defense lawyers are going to be able to muster. The next best will be to insist that PL told her to stay in the kitchen or else... ("I was in fear of Patrick" -- yeah, I know, when in doubt the American white girl blames the black guy. Still, as above, I think PL's presence is the necessary ingredient for MK's death to occur.) They will argue this threat is what lead to the cover-up.
I'm pretty sure that Patrick is saying it was all the White Girl's Idea and that she was the one holding the knife, which just slipped when MK moved the wrong way during the rape. (Which is why Amanda's head really hurts when the LE asked her about that.)
In other words, people can get themselves into situations that they never conceived of before, and 99.999% of time would never happen in just that way, just because of transient, situational events. How they react or fail to react is what makes it all too human. No special case positing of long-term psychopathology or high-grade narcissism is needed.
It isn't a satisfying conclusion that I reach on Amanda's behavior, but unless something else gets revealed, an evil act, which can be the omission to act, as her Jesuit teachers at Seattle Prep must have pointed out to all their students, is an all-too-human thing. You don't actually have to act as Cain did to be responsible for another's death.
Or there wouldn't be the point of a True Crime Blog like this one.
what do you think that the dynamic was?
I think that they started something all together and than things got out of hand...there was no sign of rape on the British girl...
Steve,
Thanks for making the fan-fiction point. People write that stuff for the same reason they read it -- for the frisson of acting/not acting, of experiencing a touch of the Other, of telling stories because narrative is our natural way of thinking. Good writers like, yes, Stephen King now & Charles Dickens then, really get you into the Other & that means not just the good guy but usually more to the point the bad guys. And SK & CD are/were NOT the world's biggest mass murderers because of what they can/could conceive!
Really, this one IS Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment" come to a webpage and YouTube clip near you. If Amanda is as I've argued above--and, no, I don't think its "sympathetic" to say she's just human as can be RS and PL too--she'll have one great book in her to write. And her Italian will be pitch perfect by her release. (Note: those are what I believe to be true possibilities but the tone is "sardonic" as in that ain't the way it was supposed to work.)
Certainly, having a three-some may have started with Amanda but even if not, she clearly did not say no to it
I wonder if when she was quoted as saying "I met Patrick on November 1", what she meant was that she met UP with him that morning? And when it's quoted as her saying "I want to tell you what happened..." we don't know what that was in response to....did the police confront her and ask her if she wanted to tell them what happened?
I don't know what happened....I am just saddened by this whole thing.
Gotta check my rewrites better! Strike last line in just previous comment.
Giuseppe, check the links to today's updates. The Medical Examiner clarified his comments, due to the arrests, that there were no SIGNS of FORCIBLE rape (tears, evulsions, etc.). That didn't mean that there wasn't rape. The presence of the knife strongly suggest that MK was under threat of her life and so allowed the intercourse. She did NOT agree to it. She allowed it to protect herself. That's rape in all Western countries I know of. Even a verbal threat alone would make it rape. And certainly being held down, as the ILE says they have evidence of, clearly makes it rape.
That Amanda may have participated in this rape -- may even have instigated it -- is the so far unspoken undertone to the story (the frssion, the thing that makes us shiver about it beyond the actual murder). It likely happens more than male minds think it does but it happens far far far less frequently than what males do daily.
And by a young, vicacious woman who gaily reports online about her Austrian family's doings, and shopping in Berlin with her sister, and finding a special place in Perugia, and loving Harry Potter, and ...
It took the confluence of all four on that particular night for MK to die. But she was raped first. She is the only true victim here.
The first one of course. Her family & friends next, and then AK & RS & PL's families & friends after that. They are all victims too. With them are where my true long-lsting sympathies lay.
Must-stop-commenting-now!
Amanda brought home the two guys: she had something in mind, group sex was on her mind. She said that they proposed the idea to M. who refused. But then she said that M. and P. went in M's room and then she heard screaming but did nothing.
If forensics said that at least two people forced M. to have sex it means that A. lies. Likely M. was a victim of the orgy organized by A. but it's difficult to believe that they planned to rape and kill M. or even just rape her. Nobody of them were criminals and A. and M. lived together, which means that M. knew A. well and would have reported to the police.
In my opinion M. initially accepted to participate and A. & co. just thought of group sex. Then to spice it up things got violent, a sharp object used initially to play was finally used to arm. Maybe involuntarily during the sexual act. M. dies everyone got scared they try to agree something and then we know....
In the news they keep referring to it as "violent sexual orgy". What does that mean, that the knife was part of it? Also, I saw a photo of the crime scene that shows bloody finger prints on the wall, unless those prints belong to the victim they have proof of another person being there and involved and that fact cannot be argued.
Also, I have never heard so many "I think" and "don't remember" in a statement in a long time.
They can't remember anything. The fact that she referred to Patrick as "The African" is weird too.
knifes might be used in sexual acts without the intent of arming but with the purpose of exciting participants.
She calls him the African because it strengthens the stereotype of the violent black immigrant...it's part of her game to blame P. for what happened keeping herself and R. away from responsibilities... off course it's childish to think that blaming 'the black guy' might work in this case; after all she's not in southern US.
my thoughts on Amanda - she seems from all accounts rather narcissitic, and very dark under the surface - not a good combination. i guess combined with the fact she was overseas, removed from her usual surroundings and checks and balances (friends, family, etc) the normal rules would not apply and thats how this tragic situation eventuated. changing stories and then playing the victim usually isnt a good sign. female or not, her (apparent) personality type would fit this type of crime and her subsequent behaviour, i think.
the dailymail.co.uk site has good info on the case.
....i cant remember where i read this, and its driving me nuts, but i read an article yesterday quoting a someone in Amanda's university class saying that she was loud, overconfident, and didnt really make and effort to befriend girls but rather went straight to the boys and latched onto them. in another article she is quoted as saying something along the lines of 'i have very few social inhibitions and do not get embarrased easily'. in normal circumstances this could (and probably would) all mean nothing but in this case, it may indicate narcissism and a lack of boundaries/consequences.
of course i am probably totally wrong but interesting information on her character none the less.
i'll try and find the articles online somewhere.
A. wrote on Facebook: “I don’t get embarrassed and therefore have very few social inhibitions.” (Times on line)
She was educated in a catholic school, hence she might well have developed a pleasure of transgression as reaction to her sex-phobic education.
Her short story about rape suggests that she had a taste for sex and violence. But she was not a criminal, never showed violent behaviour, let's say that she just wanted some unconventional slightly violent group sex. M.said ok at the beginning then the accident: M. get fatally injured.
The most recent information indicates that Meredith was an innocent victim. Giuseppe, where are you getting the idea that she consented? It seems like that was the initial belief but it was debunked with further investigation. It sounds to me like Meredith came home from watching a movie with friends and walked into a trap.
Honestly it's sad what happened. Extremely sad for M. and family but also for the others. These people might have just had bad luck. Maybe they could have had fun without tragedy. A. would have carried on her life of promiscuous sex adventures during her staying in Italy, like many American girls of her age do when abroad (and not).
It's a police strategy to charge them all initially with murder rather then accidental manslaughter. This will scare them more and possibly induce the actors to say finally the truth with full confessions.
I mean if M. consented and an accident happened would be impossible to charge with murder
I am kind of surprised no one here has entertained the possibility of a false confession. In Italy, the authorities can detain you without charge for 48 hours and interrogate you the whole time. Someone brought up Dostoyevsky-- well Crime and Punishment is all about how easily people confess to crimes that they are innocent of, given the right amount of pressure.
I tend to think she was involved-- but I have to say that the Italian police are acting very strangely by leaking out so much verbatim testimony. My wife is Italian, and she tells me she has never heard of Italian police releasing basically transcripts of the interrogation to the press.
Other questions: Did she have a lawyer present?
Did she get help from the American Consulate? (Not that our corrupt gov't would really lift a finger to help someone in a jam in another country--look at the Americans stuck in Lebanon, while Israel bombed that country intensively with American bombs no less. But I digress--Italy is supposed to give a detained foreigner access to their embassy by international law).
The short story she wrote in November titled "The Model" has begun to ring a faint warning bell. Is she the daughter in that story? Am I reading right, the daughter was the photographer, manipulating the mother to fly to her boyfriend's house in terror? Is it a case of "Still surface, deep waters" with her?
She has got a lawyer already and she's receiving the support of a psychologist. The Italian system is much more respectful of prisoners' rights than the American. We have three stages of trial before declaring a subject definitely guilty; we don't have any death penalty and Italy doesn't use torture or detainment without charges as Americans do in Guantanamo...a judge will have to confirm the detention tomorrow, I think.
"We have three stages of trial before declaring a subject definitely guilty;"
And "we have a preliminary hearing, a trial by jury, and appeals for YEARS.
"we don't have any death penalty"
Pity, especially in the case of a violent rape and murder, such as this.
"and Italy doesn't use torture or detainment without charges as Americans do in Guantanamo"
LOL, your "opinion" of torture used on a military base with enemy combatants compares to the rape/murder of a woman, in what way?
Giuseppe:
I am fully aware of the limitations of the American system, and you are right to point out how badly the US has treated the rights of foreign prisoners recently. That said, just because the American system has its unjust characteristics does not mean we shouldn't criticize the faults of other systems.
The continental tradition of being able to detain someone without bring charges-- this tradition goes back in France for centuries, for example-- is very problematic. If you can detain someone for that long, presumably you can set up incentives and decentives for them to confess to certain things. "Oh, your cell is too cold? Well, why don't you talk to us for a few hours where it is warm?" I doubt that occurred in this case, but it is a possibility.
And I am perfectly aware of the similarities to what went on in Guantanamo-- the reputation of the US will take a long time to recover from that, if it ever does.
SOOBS -
it compares because
1) its ALWAYS been illegal to use torture under both the U S Constitution and our Armed Forces various ML regulations as upheld by the Supreme Court, just as RAPE is illegal under same;
2) its STILL illegal to use torture under the Geneva Conventions, in any of our states or territories or other protectorates, to which we as a so-called civilized nation have long subscribed to, as is RAPE in war-time, which thereunder is considered a war crime;
and
3) its ILLEGAL all over again based on the John McCain sponsored War Crimes Commission Act of 2005, which still covers RAPE as above.
Torture is illegal EVEN in war-time, and as we as a country are NOT in a declared war, as no such resolution has ever passed The Congress as constitutionally required, it is most definitely illegal. Period.
Which is why the White House wanted the War Crimes 2005 Act to pass: it wanted Retroactive Immunity and thats a specific provision of the bill.
Though again, constitutionally, The Congress has no right to pass an ex-post-facto bill.
I agree that torture is illegal, and SHOULD be. I don't, however, agree with Guiseppe's contention that Italy has a better system, because they don't torture (as if American police ROUTINELY torture suspects.) I'm offended by the presumption, however I am also aware that the rest of the world likes to depict the U.S. as barbarians. Not enough to not want our HELP, when they need it, but, whatever.
as said a judge will have to validate the detention tomorrow, I believe; the judge will review the evidence and reasons of detention. They have already been charged, the three of them, with rape and murder. She has got a lawyer. I can't really see the problem. It seems to me that you US citizens are often concerned with human rights abroad, like if you had a better standard. Actually in comparison with Europe it might well be the other way round. We don't have anything like death penalty, remember people can be found eventually innocent if new evidence appears after a guilt sentence. Just to make an example but there are other things to point to...
Giuseppe. Please try to have a little more respect for Meredith Kercher. Anybody with a right-thinking mind realises that more than mere bad luck was involved that night.
I don't believe the boyfried was involved in the rape/murder.
SOOBS, yes, I understand, as though Guiseppe referred to Guantanamo, it seemed he was stretching the point to include all American LE.
And with our adoption of the Miranda rule, we went a long way to "outlawing" back-room work-overs. And, as you'll note, there's no such thing as a Miranda warning in Italy. Failure to answer any questions, when your lawyer is not present, can itself lead to charges of obstruction of justice. Asking for Consulate consultation is the only way an American can obtain a Miranda equivalent, but while you are waiting... Note again the Portuguese process that No lawyers present until you are an arguido, and being one means ...
Madrid's question about a FALSE CONFESSION is, therefore, quite a valid one. But from the ILE perspective in this case, why try to induce a particular confession, as opposed to taking "witness statements", when you have a lot of physical evidence already. Such as the phone cell & text records which have tripped up Amanda from the beginning. Those are just the same kind of information that US LE would generate and use in the same interview context.
Still, if over 5 days suspects can be held and so kept separate, based on specific physical evidence, so as to 1) prevent flight, and 2) continue interviews, that's not so much different than what a US prosecutor would seek to do re setting high bail.
I may be wrong but I think that there was no rape/murder and that was simply accidental manslaughter.
I don't think the people involved capable of planning a rape and/or a murder. I have the maximum respect for M. but I just think that it was an accident but I may be wrong off course...
RE The Italian Police Investigation & After
Madrid writes: My wife is Italian, and she tells me she has never heard of Italian police releasing basically transcripts of the interrogation to the press.
I think there are several reasons for this is definitely odd. Yet does a service as well as great fodder for the papers and us.
(1) Perugia as a Student Center.
The summer tourist season is over and the longer student season is ON. Given the efforts that all in perugia have done to develop and maintain schooling as a core buisness, getting this murder of A STUDENT solved pronto was of the highest order. You'll note that several of the UK papers in their still-pic portfolios had shots of the CSI people working the outside of the house (& a charming little one it is, & per Amanda's comments What A View!). An early report stated that over 100 officers were at work on the case. Having no solution allows FEAR to linger & if unsolved would negatively affect things next year.
(2) The ILE Reads the Papers.
re Maddie McCann & the Portugal LE and the slow response by less than well-trained officers & CSI to that crime scene.
(3) The ILE's Sense of Pride.
an understandable sense of getting #2 done right so we can say "case closed" as Felice put it, so to reassure {sp?} #1. And to PR ILE skills to other Euro Union member forces.
(4) The ILE's Normal Leaks.
which are going to happen but #3, #2, & #1, especially the latter, made it a more important PR case then say the arrest of the "Don-In-Waiting."
Do you know the Italian Minister of Justice, Clemente Mastella, is under investigation for corruption? or that the public minister leading the investigation is being widely attacked and discredited by the press and all political parties. She's also received numerous death threats, one of which was for her parents who were both killed 1 month later in a car accident? or that the whole riling class is rotten to the core? faith in the Italian judicial system is quite simply absurd...let's talk about facts Beppe...or don't you get off on that?
You, that have for president Mr Bush, a former alcoholic who devoted himself to lie and sacrificing the lives of young Americans and of millions on Iraqis to steal their oil, you talk of Italian ruling class as rotten?!
I live in Perugia and like alot of people here, I knew Patrick. He is was a very popular well liked person. Everyone here is shocked that he could have been involved...but it seems that he was. I guess people who know the other suspects are feeling the same way. I personally don't care who stabbed her three times. Anyone there that night, who tampered with the crime scene, smashing the window to confuse the police and then Giuseppe..locked Meredith in her room as she lay dying (which took 2 to 4 hours!!!!) is equally responsible for a horrendous crime...
I completely agree with you about Bush though...
Damian, things were fine or at least OK, up until that last line beginning "or". You know as well as I do that getting accused of corruption is SOP in Italian politics, and that's so because its often true. In this kind of High Profile, International case, the pressure to get it correct by the ILE will be greater than the pressure to get it done & have it finito. They know the UK press will be all over this daily. And two of the defendants will have some resources to hand -- which as you'd expect leaves Lumumba on the outside looking for a deal against the other two but subject to all the fine physical evidence ILE has & will have further of. Which defense will also have access to.
Damian,
I take it that's the word on the street for how long it took M to die? Do you have a specific paper source for that?
Because cutting across the neck or into the neck usually means you bleed to death fairly quickly, depending on how deep it is. But its never hours. Meredith would have had to have been unconscious from a blow to the head to have died from blood loss on a less severe wound.
And just what IS the mood of Perugia this late evening?
I'm not up with some of the lingo but I think you've reassured me Robert! There seems to be enough fine physical evidence to get it right...sorry for my ignorance, but what is the ILE!?
How do you know about Italian corruption in politics? thanks to the presence of an independent judiciary system which despite the hostility of politicians still works. In many other country such system is not independent or is not allowed to investigate politicians' crimes without the consent of the government.
Apparently it took some time newspapers reported. I think that she might have lost consciousness and the others possibly panicked thinking that she already died and didn't call paramedics fearing the legal consequences.
According to this Guardian article, the lawyers are angry that all of those confessions were leaked to the press. (My wife will be happy to know that unlike the US, Italy has not gone totally bonkers). However, this guy, Arturo de Felice sounds like the worst type of keystone cop in smalltown USA. He says the following: "The three are now in jail with a chance to reflect on the inconsistencies in their accounts." As if guilt could be the only reason why their stories are inconsistent. Sure throw em in the slammer and let God sort em out. Also note that they were NOT allowed to see lawyers yesterday, and it was yesterday, when they confessed. Again, I am not saying Italy's system is worse that the US system. In my experience, all small town police forces are equally incompetent.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/
...2207114,00.html
Ms Knox crumbled under questioning," the Perugia police chief, Arturo De Felice, said yesterday. Ms Kercher had been found dead, stabbed in the neck, on Friday November 2 at her student accommodation, and Ms Knox had originally claimed she was out the previous night. "The three are now in jail with a chance to reflect on the inconsistencies in their accounts." A judge is expected to visit them today at the Perugia jail where they are being held in isolation. A prison psychologist has visited the three, who were not allowed to see lawyers or family yesterday. One neighbour of Mr Lumumba heard him shouting "I haven't done anything" as he went into custody, the newspaper Corriere dell'Umbria reported.
Luciano Ghirga, who was appointed Ms Knox's lawyer on Wednesday, said her mother, Edda Mellas, had arrived from Seattle. "She is convinced her daughter is innocent," he said.
Mr Sollecito's lawyer, Tiziano Tedeschi, said his client had stayed at his home in Perugia on Thursday night. "We believe he was online that night. We are sure of Raffaele's innocence." Both lawyers said they were "outraged" that Ms Knox's statement was leaked to the Italian paper Corriere della Sera. Mr Tedeschi said Mr Sollecito had been "lynched by the media".
Damien
ILE + Italian Law Enforcement
...i think we are getting off track Beppe. Why do you say Meredith agreed to have group sex? Why can't you believe they @planned to rape her? I knew Patrick to say hello to, have chatted with him in the past, I know lots of his friends. He seemed like a nice man. But I can't be as sure as you. I'm sure that if you used that fine imagination of yours you'll be able to come up with the real story...and for what its worth, i've lived in your bel paese for 10 years
When officers arrived to investigate they found the mobile dumped in the pensioner's garden not far from where Meredith lived.
http://tinyurl.com/3cx96r
This also states that a bloody tissue was found.
Will be interesting to see if there is anyone else's DNA on the phone and/or tissue and Who's!
Apparently Meredith had gone home alone after a Halloween party.
thanks frangi. I spoke to a journalist this morning here in Perugia. She told me the Police believe Amanda held Meredith down as she was raped by the two men. One of the men then stabbed her three times. For what its worth, Sollecito has a large collection of knives and a penchant for il mostro di foligno. Beppe, there are reasons why im asking you to tone it down a bit.
Damian
the lingo is not really lingo so much as its my not wanting to type out the Italian Police (IP) or Italian Law Enforcement (ILE) or the carabineri {sp?}. I usually abbreviate "persons of interests"'s names as AK or MK. I see Guiseppe has gone to just one initial.
Well, that load of evidence is still subject to 1) being done accurately, and 2) interpretation! And we've "heard" only what ILE has selectively leaked (again, nothing from PL, which I find interesting along the lines Madrid is emphaszing). So, we shall see just how good it is. But there will be a lot of it, cf the Daily Telegraph pics of the CSI people at work.
Madrid
Ah, yes, de Felice. A good peg, but for me that goes back to Reason No. 1 above, Perugia as a College Town. But still, its that small-town, why even Southern, style, isn't it.
Interesting. Amanda has no one story (we hear), Raefelle has a lot of checkable alibi times, and Patrick says he didn't do it, wasn't there. So, no one killed Meredith??
Or just Amanda? (I mentioned the White Girl blames Black Guy syndrome way above.) Starting to get thick, it is indeed.
I have to leave where I am.
translate please il mostro
Damian:
Do you mean il Mostro di Firenze?
They have found a knife that is a possible match for the murder weapon at 'Patrick's' home and are also stating that phone records do not match up...Raefaelle??
A. is 20 years old student socially uninhibited, keen on doing experiences, enthusiastic of being in Italy where she just arrived. She has got a taste for transgression and possibly fantasize of violent sex as the story on the blog that she authored shows. But without any criminal record; solid family background.
R. comes from a well off middle class family, close to complete his studies, seems to be close to his family members, at least reading his blog. No criminal record.
P. is a popular musician in perugia, makes a living by managing a bar. Married with a child, in Italy since 88 is obviously well integrated. No criminal record.
Why should this people plan a murder and put at risk their lives? They do not have violent personalities nor are desperate, they have all to loose. did they plan rape only that got out of hand? M. was living with A. and knowing perfectly A. and possibly the others; she would have reported to the police the day after destroying their lives. If we exclude murder and rape we are left with accidental maslaughter.
http://tinyurl.com/3ye4q9
Here's the link
It doesn't look good for Amanda if the news reports are correct that she said she covered her ears.
http://tinyurl.com/34xhmb
When people are afraid because someone is screaming, they typically react by (A) running away for help, or (B) running to the aid of the screamer. Fear evokes a response.
You don't usually ignore a fearful/terrifying scream from someone, and hope it goes away when you or they could be in danger...unless of course you know the reason behind the screams -- and no you are not in danger.
If Amanda wasn't in the room participating in the killing then her behavior certainly hints that she knew what was going on behind those closed doors, doesn't it?
The 'monster' is from Foligno...he killed two boys.
I agree EFL,
That response in my mind would be if you knew exactly what was going on and did not want to listen to it...
the police are convinced she was in the room participating, that she was holding her down while she was raped by the two men...two men. Sollecto's footprint is inside Meredith's room. The 'monster' was from foligno, 20 minutes from perugia...he killed two boys
Beppe...lets not exclude lots of cocaine...
I understand that, I was commenting on her excuses more than anything.
I don't believe her story for a minute.
Just speculating aloud. . .
Suppose the 3 hatch a plan to drug and rape MK. They don't fear she will go to the police because she's a foriegn student, they will say it was consensual, she will be confused about what actually happened. AK agrees to help the two men out.
Something goes wrong during the attack, MK resists, one of the men panics or loses it and stabs her.
AK doesn't get help because (1) she's part of the conspiracy, and (2) she is in the other room and doesn't know that MK is being killed.
However, after AK learns that MK has been killed, she feels compelled to cover up the crime because she was part of the original conspiracy. The 3 do their best to make it look like a robbery, but the coverup isn't good enough and there is too much evidence behind. MK is confronted with the evidence and confesses, in whole or in part. At that point, the three try to foist blame on the others and claim they had nothing to do with it.
Cocaine can make you bold but also irrational? M. is a student abroad could be threatened to hope in her silence but is also a 22 independent British who came in Italy to study. You could never be sure that she'd keep silent. Police so far did not find any trace of drugs...
Charging them with murder and rape put the three accused under a much more though position they could have a life sentence which is a good incentive to speak and say the whole truth. It can be a police strategy to charge them with rape/murder rather than manslaughter. At least in a situation in which the evidence is ambiguous about the dynamics of the events
There were observations made of Amanda Knox by other women (which I can't find now) that were very telling, observations that there just wasn't something right about her.
Amanda Knox should write a short story from the perspective of a young woman alone in a foreign country who is raped and murdered by her "nice" roomate and her 2 "nice" male friends while sleeping. A young woman who had a suitcase full of Perugina chocolate to take home to her mother. A young woman who was stabbed in the neck by a penknife for no good reason other than saying no.
Guiseppe, don't assume that all United States citizens are ugly, barbaric brutes. There is a lot of room here for many types of people, of many Faiths/Creeds, and personalities. I am unsure if you realize how very, very big the country is in the first place.
I know there are European tourists that come to the USA, thinking they can easily go from Florida to the Grand Canyon with less than two weeks of vacation time. They think it is an easy drive, and not *that* far. My parents live in the same state I do, and it is a six hour drive to get to their house, non-stop on the highway. Not stuck in traffic for the most part.
From the link posted by frangi at 8:52pm:
It was Meredith's lost mobile that led police to her body after they got a complaint from an elderly woman that she had received a threatening call from the phone.
When officers arrived to investigate they found the mobile dumped in the pensioner's garden not far from where Meredith lived.
After tracing her address they arrived at the house she shared with other students just as her housemates had discovered the trail of blood to her door.
***So, officers were approaching the murder house before they were called by the suspects.
I still think the Italian boyfriend was not involved in the crime. He was being duped by Amanda, who was hoping to use him as her alibi.
There is every chance she could be telling the truth when she claims she cannot remember very much about that night. I wonder what the chances are that she may very well have been drugged? Could her drink have been spiked? Isn't Lumumba Diya a bar owner? Where did the party take place?
If she had been drugged, her statement will become much more credible. I do not for a second believe she participated in Meredith's murder or sex/rape.
According to some reports, the ILE have potentially traced the murder weapon to RS.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle439523.ece
According to other reports, the police bugged Knox's cell phone and she was overheard telling RS: "I cannot do it any more, I cannot bear it."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher108.xml
If these reports are true, then the boyfriend would seem to be involved in the crime.
Yes, I'm sure she'll claim she was drugged against her will, whether she was or not. Certain people are cutting this arrogant, attention-seeking woman way too much slack because she's young, cute, female and sexy.
The whole scenario probably fed her fantasy of being some type of Henry Miller-style adventuress with a dark side. She may have even figured the experience would help her in her writing career.
"I want to tell you what happened because it's left me really shocked and I am really scared of Patrick." Not because she wants to assist a murder investigation of her friend -- because *she's* "shocked." And hoping to exonerate herself.
It seems like lying perps often go on about how shocked they are. Whereas innocent folks know a murder is always shocking -- they don't feel the need to emphasize their surprise.
Robert M....DUDE! I have missed you (sorry that was OTT a little bit)! I am perplexed and enlightened by your blogments on this story as well as Steve~O`s wake up call to NEVER put yourself in the shoes of a psychopath or murderess (my first comment here reflected what I HOPE would be the reason for this woman's involvement vs what the data is leading to).
That being said, after reading every post and update by Steve and reading all blogments (everyone has done a SUPER JOB!), I am going to change my mind on what I believe may have happened in this case.
It has been SCREAMING OUT TO ME that it is POSSIBLE (imho ONLY) that this woman is lying through her freaking teeth (as are all of the guilty parties). They all seem to spill half-truths like the fluff flying off of a dandylion in 40 mile an hour winds.
Someone had posted earlier (blogment) that this female perp had attended a jesuit prep high school yet she lists her religion as, "athiest" on her myspace.. So what else "isn't right" with this woman? After you milk a cow the cream floats to the top and you skim in off to get to the real milk (take it from a farmer girl). Let's just say that the milk in this case will be (again imho)far from the statements given so far (ie, worse in depth and scope).
Also.....did anyone also notice the TIME FRAME for which this woman was allegedly moved to Italy, obtained a boyfriend, started classes (a once in a life time thing that should not be spent working until 0230 am in a bar, etc), and also found time to visit other relatives in EUROPE???? I am reading it as TWO FREAKING MONTHS. That is bizarre. And the edgar story...while it had some great word combos and was captivating at random times, I rather found it to be (as they call it at Waffle House): topped, covered, smothered and chunked.
Well Holly it is wise to be opened-minded. You cannot possibly dismiss the fact that she may not be responsible for the murder.
Why do you claim she is arrogant or attention-seeking?
I do not for a second believe she participated in Meredith's murder or sex/rape.
This is from you, right, Random Guy? Yet you're accusing me of closed-mindedness.
I suspect you're either a fan (you think she's cute and have a crush) or you know her and are trying to help her out.
As for the arrogance, narcissism and attention-seeking, it's in that abysmal writing and the photos on her blog. The arrogance is also in the confession -- it's all about *her,* not her murdered friend.
I think other reasons for some of the commenters' prejudices in her favor are that she's middle-class and was going to college. I get the feeling that a lot of people on this blog are 20-40 years older than she is, and working-class. Maybe they think going to an unselective college and spending a year abroad is something really special, more like it was 30 years ago (when far fewer people did such things).
By the way, I'm not trying to put down the *victim* for doing a year abroad -- I'm just trying to point out that it shouldn't favorably influence anyone's views of the alleged perp.
I feel a lot more compassion for Harmony Creech's mother than I do for this woman.
Actually, I shouldn't say her writing is "abysmal." Just typical college stuff, trying to be shocking, but nothing special.
It's the self-absorbed prattle on the blog, coupled with the fake-sounding responses to the police, that make me unsympathetic to her.
comment made by the boyfriend:
"He said: "I have known Amanda for two weeks. From the night that I met her she started sleeping at my house."
food for thought. To me (imho), the boyfriend's testimony seemed the most genuine so far. The above statement (if true) also begs the question of how could this young woman come to study overseas, meet a NEW BOYFRIEND (and start shacking up), and work until all hours of the morning at a bar while she is supposedly immersing herself in classes and languages. There are only a few words spoken at bars and they won't get you far in language aquisition (most of the phrases being of the phillanderous type).
Once again....a big HMMMMMMM.....
Hi nurse, good to see (read) you...lol
Random guy: I believe that she participated, but that aside if she didn't then WTF!!
She didn't help her flatmate but 'blocked her ears' and made random trips back and forth to her boyfriends house while Meredith lay dead or dying!!!
A. is not going to answer any questions today of the judge in charge of deciding for her detention. This was said by her lawyers and reported by the Italian Newspaper 'La Repubblica'
Yes Beppe, it seems none of the defendents will respond. The police believe they have the murder weapon, one of the knives from Sollecito's collection. Not looking good for your theory...the four of them wanted a bit of fun and Meredith got unlucky. Go easy Beppe
Why? A weapon was necessary anyway...
My feeling is that might be difficult to establish personal responsibilities unless they will collaborate.
I think you mean "cooperate" Guiseppe. *wink* *smile*
I agree with you on that...but this is very different from your 'just a bit of fun' theory last night. There are reports here of a fourth person being involved. Apparently, they've found a bloody footprint in the house which doesnt correspond to one of the suspects
Beppe, do you still think the knife slipped???
Italian Newspapers today talk about a community in Perugia made of foreign students, some local students and some immigrants, which seems to have quite a bit of fun: drugs, promiscuous sex...Amanda seemed to have various sexual partners...
More than one sexual partner isn't uncommon for males and females in more than one country though, Guiseppe. Not just the USA, but Canada, Australia, the U.K. etc.
It's a possibility. I find extremely difficult to think that these three took the risk destroying their lives raping and murdering. I see them more as individualistic and hedonistic personalities keen on going beyond the usual but with their own lives of integrated people to preserve.
Good morning to you all from the US eastern time zone.
nurseb, happy to know you are home
The TIMES today is now reporting the possibility of a FOURTH person (not Meredith) as being involved because of
1) another footprint in M's room that they can't match up, and
2) a fingerprint in blood that doesn't match any of the 3 suspects.
Again, ILE is putting stuff out for its own PR spin & to demonstrate their technical competence. Still, they better hope they are incorrect about #2 because [US] defense lawyers would jump all over that. As in,the Real Killer?
Also, according to the TIMES, M's friend Sophie Purton, with whom she watched a video on Night of 11/1, has stated M told her about the men A would bring back to the flat, including at least one "stranger".
http://tinyurl.com/2qtq5y
So there are 5 people int he flat at around 1 am, if its true RS was there also. No one now doubts that AK & PL were there as well as M.
So who's #5?
And why haven't there been any leaks about what PL has been saying/not saying to the ILE? I can't imagine the UK papers wouldn't translate any such "confession", as they are still sidebarring & updating AK's & RS's statements. Something about that makes me real curious. If the ILE is leaking the rest, why not leak PL's too, especially as A has named him as the killer.
Yet if there was a 5th person, who's to say he wasn't in the room with PL also? What RS says next will be interesting, but it seems as the prelim judge is in today & lawyers are at hand, nothing more will be forthcoming until... when?
I am just suggesting that this promiscuity, which I don't judge on moral grounds, was, jointly with drugs and the party mood, conducive to think about orgies. M. was taking drugs too, this has been declared by his Italian boyfriend who said that he was not jealous of her. What does it mean? Were they promiscuous too?
Promiscuity is the least of the "moral evils" that was done that night though Guiseppe, don't you agree? You are thinking that you reason as they do, when more than likely you don't. The more I think about those short stories Amanda wrote, the more I wonder about her. Is she a Puppet Master, making people think of her what she wants them to see? Is she co-dependent, or does she watch for co-dependent tendencies so that she might control them? As I said earlier, I am starting to see that she might be what a folk saying around here calls "still waters". The saying is: "Still waters run deep.", implying that there are deep currents (could be anger, or other harmful behaviors, it means they are troubled deep down where outside observers cannot see it) that one must be wary of, and danger of being pulled under the placid surface by an undertow, or being capsized in an unexpected ripple.
Other thoughts:
commenters at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, which is a well-written paper from my previous reads there
http://tinyurl.com/35uzyw
follow-ups to short article announcing AK's Facebook profile is gone and her MySpace is closed. Both anti-s & friends writings in.
WOW! ILE got a cell-tap that quick, eh? Only the US Federal NSA can do it faster! I wonder how many OTHER friends & family cells they've tapped over this?
I will be making a post later about "sympathy" in response to Holly & NurseB. I think our differences are on one level a matter of emphasis, not really of substance. I don't think I'm splitting hairs but, no, its not all just "they are evil". See my two long posts above about being all-too-human.
Evil acts, or ommissions to act, do make evil people, as conversely evil people can do good acts, though their ascribale motives may simply be the calculus of self-preservation/social covering.
That is generally a well-written paper, Robert, but those blog entries seem kind of clueless, and the comments are downright idiotic. Some racist, others just pointless all the way around.
I'd imagine Amanda gave someone her passwords to take those profiles down. I knew this would happen in this case, that's why I made the mirrors.
There
’s a lot of speculating going on without much references to the facts.
The police claim to have enough evidence to know what happened. The police are convinced that MK was morally innocence and that she was the innocent victim of a sexual attack. There is no history what so ever to suggest that MK has been involved in orgies or sexual acts that could be intrepretated as “out of the ordinaryâ€.
Facts:
1) Police say that they find no evidence of sexual intercourse on MK. But they find evidence of male bodily fluids on MK
’s body and evidence to suggest MK was subjected to violence attacked before being knifed in the neck. They say they have evidence that MK had struggled to fight off an attack.
2) The police say to have evidence that all three suspects were in MK
’s bedroom shortly before or after MK’s death. MK’s bedroom was found locked. The window in the bedroom was broken.
3) MK
’s two mobile phones were disposed of. They were found with her fingerprints on it, and that of another person.
Fact 1) would suggest that MK did not, or only partially, give her consent to a sexual act.
Fact 2) would suggest that all 3 suspects were involved in some way.
Fact 3) would suggest that there is incriminating evidence to be found in the mobile phones of MK.
Bravo Groenhoven. You do well to concentrate on what the police have given us. I live in Perugia and the local press have done a fine job of trying to portray Meredith as a young lady of loose morals who was playing with fire and got burnt. (rather like our friend Giuseppe) As you correctly pointed out, the facts all point in the other direction. At the press conference given by the local police the other day, the police chief lost his rag with these 'journalists'. He shouted at them "lei e una vittima e basta" Sorry to disappoint you Giuseppe, but your 'knife slipping' theory is both wrong and offensive
Giuseppe Giuseppe...with reference to your wonderfully insightful post on sex drugs and rock and roll in Perugia. You seem to be obsessed with superficial tittle tattle. With every word you write you become less and less credible. your theory goes agaisnt everything coming out of the Questura. Will you be disappointed when you discover you are completely wrong? Will you feel bad at least?
offensive? you're the one who's judgmental...people who do orgies have my all respect. Police was vague, they didn't explain clearly the events. She didn't have signs of violence on her body apart from the cuts but they claim that she was hold down. How can they? And if she was, in a kind of consensual violent orgy that wouldn't be unusual anyway...
I just feel bad about the fat that someone died that's it. I am not one of these freaks that enjoy arguing with others on someone's disgraces, how they happed and why....do you?
you believe Meredith consented in a violent orgie and got unlucky as the knife slipped and stabbed her three times. This directly contradicts everything the police have said. You have no basis for saying this other than your erudite logic and your rather morbid fixation with your invented little theory. Maybe, just maybe, the people with access to the evidence and suspects are better placed to judge
The police coroner says that bruises were found on her body (rumours are her arms) to suggest that she struggled whilst being attacked. Furthermore, police forensic experts can tell whether a victim had struggled, and/or whether the victim
’s body had been moved after the moment of death.
There is also a suggestion of the drug XTC might be involved with some of the suspects. Certain XTC can fuel sex lust.
Much to the distress of family and friends of MK, the English press have been nosing around MK
’s fellow students in the UK & Italy to find out about her sex life. The consensus is that MK has never indulged in orgies and was certainly not the type of person to do so. Though I have heard rumours about her sexuality...
The reason for the police being vague is to protect their case and MK's family.
But it seems they are very confident to have already cracked the case. I don
’t know the Italian judicial system, but I would expect to see formal charging very soon.
The police coroner says that bruises were found on her body (rumours are her arms) to suggest that she struggled whilst being attacked. Furthermore, police forensic experts can tell whether a victim had struggled, and/or whether the victim
’s body had been moved after the moment of death.
There is also a suggestion of the drug XTC being involved with some of the suspects. XTC can fuel sex lust.
Much to the distress of family and friends of MK, the English press have been nosing around MK
’s fellow students in the UK & Italy to find out about her sex life. The consensus is that MK has never indulged in orgies and was certainly not the type of person to do so. Though I have heard rumours about her sexuality….
The reason for the police being vague is to protect their case and her family.
But it seems they are very confident to have already cracked the case. I don
’t know the Italian judicial system, but I would expect to see formal charging very soon.
Guiseppe, violent orgies are rarely consensual, nor within the boundaries of what is considered normal society behavior. Also, mind your manners here, for we do indeed debate "what makes the criminal mind tick the way it does" often, this includes the owner of this blog, whom it seems to me you imply is a "freak". If you don't like doing that, why are you here?
debate is different from acrimony and arguing...anyway I know why I am not popular here; I dared to criticize the empire
Guiseppe, you know you spoke in a way that would injure other people's dignity, yet you did so anyway. You also know you can do better, and I believe you choose to do so sometimes. I say again, don't think to put all Americans into one niche, one catagory, because there are plenty that won't fit into the stereotype you think when you hear of this country.
Giuseppe!!!!!!!! Which empire is that? What happened to your wonderful logic!?? Beppe has left the building...
I'll add one more thing Guiseppe, you have one "mouth" and two "ears". Don't you ever think to "listen" a little more before "speaking"? I think you have a good mind, and I think that in time you'd find there are like minds here, if you'd give yourself a chance to see that. Don't catagorize, read more, and think more. Honest advice, I think you'd maybe find like minds to debate with if you did so.
Oh-- please, people. You have an Italian here who is in Italy right now and can tell us what is happening there in this case. And instead of trying to get as much information as possible about this case from him, you choose to focus on his (sometimes valid) criticisms of this country.
New for naive Americans: most of the world's citizens cannot stand the US and its people right now. That might not be fair to you in particular, but it is still a fact. Figure out a way to deal with it.
Madrid, you missed the fact that damian is in that very town. *wink* And, I do "deal with it" as you phrase it. Doesn't mean I have to swallow it when someone is trying to ram it down my throat, assuming I must fit into the pigeonhole they believe I do.
And to prove what I say, I quote damian directly:
"Bravo Groenhoven. You do well to concentrate on what the police have given us. I live in Perugia and the local press have done a fine job of trying to portray Meredith as a young lady of loose morals who was playing with fire and got burnt. (rather like our friend Giuseppe) As you correctly pointed out, the facts all point in the other direction. At the press conference given by the local police the other day, the police chief lost his rag with these 'journalists'. He shouted at them "lei e una vittima e basta" Sorry to disappoint you Giuseppe, but your 'knife slipping' theory is both wrong and offensive
damian | 11.08.07 - 10:28 am | #"
It's great that Damian is posting on this-- it would also be good to have multiple perspectives on the case.
Here is how I deal with criticisms of the US by Italians, btw:
Giuseppe:
Your government (led by Berlusconi)committed Italy to the coalition of the willing as did the leaders of the UK, Spain, and Portugal. You were and are an illegal invader of Iraq just as the US is. Prodi has not taken your troops out yet, because he is too scared of Bush to do so, unlike Zapatero in Spain, who gave the US the middle finger as soon as he got into power.
What I mean to say is that Italians have nothing to be proud of-- also, it is now clear that your government helped the CIA with the illegal renditions of Muslim Italians in the Milan area. Again-- Italy has nothing to be proud of.
Spain and its people, on the other hand, have cojones of steel.
Since reading Steve's post and the comments, I feel overwhelmingly sad for the many lives that will be affected by the atrocious act perpetrated by PL, AK, and RS (and an unknown assailant?). A wife and son, families and friends who loved these people, futures destroyed because of what they chose to do on that single night.
But my heart breaks for MK's family. MK knew these people, and probably didn't think twice about being with them that night--she knew them and trusted them, knew AK's apparent penchant for "if it's sex, anyone and anything goes", but allowed the roommates to do their own thing, even if it wasn't her thing.
The 'how' of this absolutely eludes me, how a night of drink, drugs, and sex somehow becomes murderous intent. And if it is true that MK lived for some time after the attack, if she might have been saved or her agony ameliorated if help were offered her, then those responsible should pay a very high price indeed.
Madrid, I agree, which is why I hope to coax a more thoughtful dialog out of some. *wink*
just for your info the Italian troops did not participate to the invasion but joined the occupation under the pressure of US administration; Italian troops left Iraq under the Prodi government.
Anyway you started all of this, questioning the Italian legal system and its provision of adequate rights to detainees.
I have never offended anybody but I was actually offended by Damian who called me 'morbid'.
Mine was a legitimate hypothesis in a situation of poor availability of details on the conditions of the body of M.
Groenhoven adds details of which I was not aware of and that strengthen the hypothesis of lack of consent of M. to initiate the sexual act.
Lawyers of R. pointed today to the fact that police is presenting contradictory evidence.
The case is far to be solved in its details and strategically police have the advantage to press the heaviest charges to scare the three and to induce them to collaborate.
According to the Daily Mail -Diya Patrick Lumumba is yet to interviewed. This is answer to why there has being no leaks of Patrick interview.
Sorry, Steve, the discussion there went down hill.
I do think interested readers should bookmark the Seattle PI for ongoing follow-ups. Its first wrap-up article Tuesay AM actually linked/ listed to the various UK papers covering this in detail. Their own reporters are really working A's Seattle background.
Also, Seattle-Perugia are "official" sister cities. Because of which, A's mother is being put up at no charge for time being, as official spokesman said "as a matter of humanity".
Yes, Nana, your second paragraph is the heart-breaker. Meredith walked back to that house with no expectation that her basic trust in others would be violated. And it was. "A lack of humanity."
The Daily Mail has an unsigned update re today's proceedings mixed with a presentation of Unanswered Questions, one of which speak directly to my repeated query re no leak on PL what has said. It seems ILE has either not interviewed him or is deliberately keeping a total lid on what he's said!! Also, other "witnesses" are now being sought. [Thanks, Missy.]
Madrid, please note the first Query posed, as what's being implied in the rest of the article is, hey! just how slam dunk, "case closed", is this? Is the Real Killer still at loose?
Anybody want to tackle an answer to the last question? which is indeed a two-sided locked door mystery.
http://tinyurl.com/246td3
Some of the unanswered questions:
1.) Why did police take such liberties in announcing so quickly that Meredith had been the innocent victim of a 'sexual attack' seemingly involving those in custody?
2.) Why have police not yet interviewed Lumumba even though Knox has essentially accused him of murder and their own theories implicate him in a 'violent sexual attack'?
3.) Was Knox in the house while Meredith was being murdered, and if so what did she do afterwards?
4.) If Knox was 'terrified' of Lumumba, as she claimed, why did she bring him back to her house?
5.) Was Sollecito in the house while Meredith was being murdered or not?
6.) Sollecito has said he had only known Knox for two weeks. How far was he willing to go to protect her?
7.) Knox has admitted that she and Lumumba at least were 'drunk'. Are the conflicting stories and confusion the result of a night blurred by alcohol, or something more?
8.) Where were Meredith's two other housemates that night?
9.) Meredith's door was locked from the inside, yet blood was found in the bathroom, suggesting the killer had left the room at one point from inside the house and attempted to clean his or her self off. Who locked the door and how did they leave the room after?
And to Damian, as a resident of Perugia, did you know Meredith or know of her through mutual friends?
How closely involved with the University for Foreigners are you?
Why do you think the local journalists are trying to play up M's own sexual history? Just for paper sales, or are there persistent rumors, perhaps from friends of the accused? And aren't these the same journalists that the Perugia LE is leaking to? Do you trust everything being leaked by the LE, given how incomplete it is?
And aren't the students in town almost back in to the regular party atmosphere?
P. Lumumba declared today in front of the judge that he has never been there in M. and A.'s house. He said that was at work in his bar and witnesses can confirm this. Hi lawyers point to the fact that A. was defined a lier by the police itself.
Wow-- that's really stunning. Giuseppe, do you think he really has an allibi-- have they interviewed anyone who can attest to the fact that he was at the bar?
Personally, I always thought the case against this Patrick dude would be the hardest to make. People that are above 35 that have kids and own their own business are very unlikely to do this kind of random violent crime against someone they barely know.
I've never visited this blog before. I was looking for information about this terrible killing and came across it by chance last night and am pleased I did. I've learnt alot and I appreciate it. I'm English and have lived in Perugia for seven years. Robert doesn't believe it, but everyone seems to have their theory. Giuseppe's is that it was nothing more than four friends having a bit of violent orgy fun and a knife slipping a few times. I'm not interested in the least whether Giuseppe 'dared to citicize the empire'. I don't even know which empire he's talking about. I don't care if he thinks he knows why he is unpopular or if America or Italy is better. The police say Meredith was gang-raped, stabbed three times and then locked in her room and left to die. (by the way, Robert, you were right to correct me last night about the time it took her to die. my source was a local rag, thanx) They also say they have the proof. This is not a game Giuseppe. Since what you say is blissfully detatched from the known facts it is all your doing and will never change. It doesn't matter.
It looks like you don't even read my posts Damian. I suggest you to find someone else to reverse your frustrations on. I had enough. I won't talk to you any more on this board.
Madrid, La Repubblica and Il Corriere della Sera, the 2 main Italian newspapers report on their web sites that P. and is lawyers can produce witnesses and other evidence of his presence at work.
If it's true the fact that police didn't bother of checking before throwing him in jail could say a lot a bout the quality of police's work on this, perhaps rushed case.
Amanda today chose to avoid to answer the judge's questions.
R. said today that he was at home on Internet. Police is looking at his pc. He also said that spoke with his father on the phone at about 11.
Sorry Giuseppe. Some of what you say is right and I had missed your recent comments in which you finally start to change your mind.
The thing which has shocked Perugia almost as much as the killing itself, is the supposed invovement of Patrick. He is very well known and liked by all.
I believe the current climate of xenophobia in Italy needs to be taken into account. A couple of weeks ago an italian woman was brutally murdered in Rome. The murderer was a 'rom' which best translates as gypsy. A controversial law was immediately passed in which the Italian government could deport any foreigner deemed to be a risk to society. The right are calling for up to 20 000 romanians to be deported. The slums on the outskirts of Rome, where the romanian community live, were destroyed. There were also reprisal attacks agaisnt romanians, stabbings and beatings. This was a week before Meredith was killed.
also...half of what I've read in the newspapers here has turned out to be wrong. (On the morning of the three arrests for example, every newspaper had the name and photogragh of a Tunisian who lived nearby and had disappeared immediately after the killing)
...Sollecito also has an alibi...!
I'm very interested in this case, but also very disappointed in some of the commentary.
First, I would like to say to those who say they have not offended anyone....I was very offended. I read all the comments and, even trying to take in to consideration a language barrier (though all seem to be quite well spoken and have an impressive grasp of the English language).
The statement that A was having sexually promiscuous adventures like many "American" girls. I had no idea that promiscuity was solely the trait of the American female. I also wasn't aware that, apparently, the southern US is the only territory in which some have attempted to place blame on minorities for brutal crimes. As if people in this country are the only ones that have ever unjustly accuse someone of something because they are "different".
To be sure, nothing that happens in America gets past the international community but I had always thought, until now, that that community was more forward thinking that to assume that all Americans were evil. I agree with Kat on this one. It's unfortunate when generalizations are applied to an entire nation of people. Whether one agrees or does not(and the "nots" include, um about 80% percent of AMERICANS, by the way) with the current international policies, it is a well known fact that the American PEOPLE themselves, blowhardy as we may be, are some of the most generous people around. Which will be as evident (and as taken for granted) as it always is the next time there is some disaster and we are the first nation there giving out blankets and food and medicine.
Anyone who reads this blog on any kind of consistent basis is well aware that, no matter where the story, American or anywhere else, LE and judicial procedures are always the first thing scrutinized. ILE is being looked at under the same microscope as we look at our own.
Though I sure wish I'd known how promiscuous I should have been along the way. If I'd known it was expected of me, my travel diaries would be a heck of a lot more interesting to read. Do they stamp that info on passports nowadays?
Sorry, Steve. First time I've felt compelled to post and I hate that it went off subject. I really respect what you do here.
That there is a perception of American girls being typically promiscuous anywhere in Europe makes me laugh because it seems to indicate that peoples' prejudices are pretty much the same everywhere. Because there's certainly an American perception that women from various parts of Europe are "easy." I don't think so myself, but I've sure heard that kind of opinion expressed in the past.
To me, the two biases cancel each other out.
I'd like people to take a longer view here and not focus on one person or another's nationality. People are interested in this case overall because it involves such a diverse group of alleged victims and suspects.
Pennies -- many folks across the pond are really loathe to admit that prejudices based on skin color even exist there at all. But they do. We southerners do deserve our stereotypes as the classic bigots of the world, I'm afraid, but I know you can go just about anywhere and find people who hate another group of people for some ridiculous reason like skin color.
I remember when I first experienced this culture shock. A female friend of mine had a redheaded, green-eyed American mom and a dark-skinned father from Guyana. She turned out to have this amazingly amorphous appearance. She and I were both southern kids growing up in one of the less enlightened suburbs of Nashville, TN.
My friend moved to the UK for a while after high school. I'll never forget the first time I saw her after she'd lived across the pond for 2 years and she told me how her first real experience with bigotry was with Britons in a pub where she worked in Surrey. They called her "n-word", the "colored girl," referred to her as black, you name it. To her face.
I repeat: This girl grew up in SOUTH NASHVILLE, and she'd not had any experience with in-your-face racism until she lived in England. There, no one even bothered to wonder where she was really from, didn't have a clue she was actually a melange of caucasian, South American native (Amazonian Indian, maybe), and Asian, to name a few. She was just 'black'.
My point is that story and others proved to me quite some time ago that Americans don't need to feel so terribly bad about ourselves, no matter what the rest of the world says. Everyone's national hands are dirty in some way.
And the rest of the world has been saying this stuff since long before Dubya got in office and gave the International community a good excuse to slam evil "ugly Americans."
If Amanda Knox was some kind of murderous harpie from hell (she ain't been convicted yet, y'all) it had very little to do with her nationality. Any argument to the contrary is so lame it doesn't merit a response.
And Europe cornered the market on Evil Women Folk ages ago, anyway. Lucrezia Borgia, anyone?
Thanks for your response. As I said, I've been reading your blog for almost as long as it's been around but this was my first comment and not sure why I was so compelled to write something this time. I think it's because, I'm just so sick to death of everyone singing the same tune over and over again. I expect it over on CNN or one of those places but to have it devolve to a political discussion here just seemed too much.
I agree with everything you are saying. Yes, southerners probably earned their reputation at some point and things are nowhere near perfect but I like to believe humanity (and even southerners!) are making great strides in that regard.
But, we take a step back every time it turns to "well, your leader is a moron". Yeah, ok, and, how does that relate to a senseless murder of young, bright college student, exactly?
In any case, I've traveled some and I find one thing to always be true everywhere. And that is that I have encountered rude people in Boston and rude people in France. But I have also encountered wonderful people in Boston and wonderful people in France.
I've downed pints in the UK with Scottish soccer "hooligans", clinked shot glasses of cringe inducing tequila with a very old, dignified Mexican man in Puerto Vallarta and, a few weeks ago, had Heinekins with a lovely Italian couple we met in St. Maarten. They were bogged down with bags of groceries trying to get to their room high atop a hill and my husband and I offered them a ride. They, in turn, met us by the ocean and bought us a drink and, the four of us together - language barrier and all - spoke of our children, our vacation, or jobs, and our homes. We connected as humans, not as those "of the empire" and those who are not.
Gosh it sounds like I drink a lot doesn't it? That's the first step towards being promiscuous! LOL
But I truly love what you say about us not feeling so bad about ourselves. I know in my gut that good and evil are everywhere. And I think that, deep down, most people do.
I don't know what to make of Amanda Knox, bu reading through her blogs she seems like a regular, if a bit 'up herself', student.
For some reason, it may be in my head, she didn;t hit it off with meredith. If she is referring to meredith when she talks of 'the skinny girl', she doesnt go on to say anything complimetary about her. We also see the photo of her posing with only two of her roommates and M isn't in the picture. In other parts of her blog she refers to Laura, whom she admires for her lack of inhibitions sexually. She never mentions M once, except to speak, unflatteringly of the skinny girl. Maybe a little jealous of her?
I wonder if perhaps her and PL got a little bit drugged up, things between them got a little out of hand. AK possibly left the room realising things were going too far and PL carried on. She heard the screams and left the house to go to RS house. She tells RS all and he agrees to provide her with an alibi, so there is no danger of her being implicated (which woud tie in with his statement a bit). PL threatens that if she tells the police, he will tell them of her involvement in the crime, so and RS agree to cover up for PLs murder. They clear the scene. RS takes the knife home, feeling that as he genuinely wasn't involved and has genuine, verifiable alibis, then his house is not likely to be searched. The knife is stored at hs place.
AK is now worried that if she tells the truth, her part in the crime, while never intentional, makes her complicit in the murder.
I expect that MK never wanted any of this. AK and PL went into her room, tried it on and what started off with MK laughingly pushing them off, ended up in PL getting violent and AK going along thin king it was a game.
Maybe I'm being too easy on her. Like I say, i dont know what to make of her, but she certainly seems cocky and not the type of girl to think of the consequences until too late.
Joanne, pls re-read the skinny girl stuff. Amanda was referring to one of the two Italian girls (Molly and Laura?) occupying the apartment and that 'these girls are awesome. really sweet, really down to earth, funny as hell. neither are students, they actually both work int he same law office'
Let's slow down and get some perspective here.
it is admirable and utterly human to feel outrage at senseless murder....
it is regrettable and utterly human to express this outrage focusing on insignificant detail....
all because we as humans cannot fully accept the abject horror of our brutality to each other
we look away - seeking to find mental balance in analyzing the unimportant things
mr soprano a fine fictional example
Yep, re-read it, she's referring to Laura.
So, she doesn't actually mention meredith at all, her fourth roomate. From her blog and pics you would assume she only shared a house with Laura and Molly.
I think the African thing is being taken out of context here. Could she have said that because um, he is AFRICAN? As in from Congo? I dont think its the same thing as saying the black guy did it.
Joanne, I doubt the mirror is complete, last entry Oct 15th - the penultimate one Sept 15.
Please reflect before you react as your judgment will stand a better chance of being unimpaired.
The details and opinions are pointless in this time of grieving.
I wish all peace of mind and a safe good night.
From the daily mail website today:
"Detectives believe Amanda Knox, 20, helped bar owner Patrick Diya Lumumba, 37, subject the English girl to a terrifying ordeal.
Knox pushed so hard on the 21-year-old's face that she left an imprint of her fingers on the skin. "...
"The judge was told: "She has shown an unscrupulous tendency to lie constantly to investigators. Police believe the attack last Thursday night may have followed a session of drug taking"
Rob, it is, I read it on the actual myspace page yesterday. She hadn't updated it for a month. I hear what you are saying, we should all hold judgement, but what's the point of being here disscussing it? Shall we all sit round discussing holding judgement? It's speculation, looking at the possibilities.
Then it would seem she's done for.
"Detectives believe Amanda Knox, 20, helped bar owner Patrick Diya Lumumba, 37, subject the English girl to a terrifying ordeal.
Knox pushed so hard on the 21-year-olds face that she left an imprint of her fingers on the skin."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
evil POS.
"2.) Why have police not yet interviewed Lumumba even though Knox has essentially accused him of murder and their own theories implicate him in a 'violent sexual attack'?"
Presumably they have been interviewing him. A more interesting question is why his interview was not leaked as early as the others. One would assume an interpreter has been involved for AK who has been in the country only briefly. PL may not need one after so many years in Italy. Could be the interpreter is a source? Or could be that PL's story was not exciting enough to leak? This would certainly be the case if his story was that he was not even there, as seems now to have been supported by his alibi.
"4.) If Knox was 'terrified' of Lumumba, as she claimed, why did she bring him back to her house?"
She claims to be terrified of him now because he killed her room-mate. This does not preclude her trusting him before the events of this night.
"8.) Where were Meredith's two other housemates that night?"
Are you suggesting they were out by design? If this was the weekend and they are Italian maybe they were in their home-towns enjoying the company of their families and availing themselves of Mum's laundry-service? Their absence is not necessarily sinister, even if it opened the door to this tragedy.
"The student's lawyer Luciano Ghirga, said last night: "This is a very dramatic and tragic case.
"We have applied for our client to be released on the grounds that she has nothing to do with this."
Asked what Knox was doing, Mr Ghirga replied: "What do you think a 20-year-old girl is doing while in prison?""
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
Learning very raw and basic Italian. she should be well fluent on her release in, say, 25 years time.
Perhaps the mysterious fifth person will prove to be the Moroccan who disappeared shortly after the murder was discovered.
Knox, shortly after the murder, was seen with "a North African" in a laudrette washing clothes and a pair of training shoes. Perhaps this was the Moroccan? (Would Lumumba be described as "a North African"? "African" would be more likely as he is a black African rather than a Moor).
It would be interesting to know if either Lumumba or Sollecito are left handed because The T*mes appears to be repeating speculation from the Italian media, possibly based on the post mortem examination, that the victim's neck was gripped by a right hand while the knife wounds were inflicted by the left hand.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2811736.ece
> Asked what Knox was doing, Mr Ghirga replied: "What do you think a
> 20-year-old girl is doing while in prison?""
Given the amount of time it took her to organise a group of fück-buddies in Perugia, I'd say she was probably working her way through the other inmates ...
Just read the Daily Mail article. The police seem to think they boyfriend wasn't there, but helped cover up.
It also seems that MK and AK weren't great friends, with Meredith telling her friend sophie that one of her roommates was very strange.
My instincts are finely tuned this evening 
Joanne, i would be very embarrassed to have called someone 'up herself' while going on to demonstrate that i don't even have accurate comprehension or recall of what i had read.
i certainly would be embarrassed after this to go on and fantasize about a violent murder.
i understand this blog to be about the human, social and investigatory aspects of crime. in my opinion it's not judgment but understanding that is on offer and to be offered.
you acknowledged misrepresenting the facts yet showed no contrition and didn't miss a beat getting back to presenting your assumptions.
murder is harrowing but how we deal with it as a society - both formally and informally - is intriguing and informative at the same time.
didn't they say on dragnet "just the facts"?
Get a life Rob.
After reading the article that Robert M. linked in one of his recent comments, and looking at the photos of the accused, none of the three--AK, PL, RS--look big and bulky enough to kill MK alone, and with a pen knife, at that. Aren't they smallish knives?
However, if MK was surprised while in her own bed (asleep or not), my supposition above would probably not hold true.
AK is being revealed as an immoral brat of a girl, who didn't respect anyone, even herself.
MK's photo shows a beautiful young woman, unlike AK's pic which shows nothing but her disdainful self.
from daily mail:
"Meredith told me that Amanda brought men back to their house - I don't know how many."
'She told me in particular about a man who lives in an internet cafe. It's the place where Amanda met him. Meredith thought this man was very strange."
c'mon Joanne! you really are not adding anything with your false claims about what you have read.
your instincts may be finely tuned this evening but your rational mind appears to have deserted you.....
> Asked what Knox was doing, Mr Ghirga replied: "What do you think a
> 20-year-old girl is doing while in prison?""
Given the amount of time it took her to organise a group of fück-buddies in Perugia, I'd say she was probably working her way through the other inmates ...
todger | 11.08.07 - 6:04 pm | #
cute little young sl*t
Are you gong to stalk me all night rob? Or start just posting away on your own, without having to look at me for something to moan about?
the only hope is that they will get scared and confess because the police in my opinion do not have enough proofs to sentence them for rape and murder
im surprised you feel stalked - just get your facts right, i don't think that request is out of line considering the misrepresentations you have been making. not everybody has been able to read the articles referred to so won't know their true content.
i don't think your desire to insult me is justified. try not to hate so much....there is enough already out there
Au contraire rob, i absolutely adore you right now, you are the most interesting person i have ever met.
Here're some extracts from witness interviews, together with some more details of the developing character portrait of Amanda Knox that is building up:
http://www.corriere.it/english/
a..._meredhit.shtml
I'm impressed by the fact that AK, 20 years old, a cute chick, chose as fuck buddy PK who's not good looking and older...but maybe she's a bit pervy....what do you think?
Ok, Meredith was not raped.
Ok, Meredith was not raped.
Melissa | 11.08.07 - 6:43 pm | #
why?!
I dont know why, but the autopsy did not show signs of rape.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?i...tory?
id=3831234
> I'm impressed by the fact that AK, 20 years old, a cute chick,
> chose as fuck buddy PK who's not good looking and older...
> but maybe she's a bit pervy....what do you think?
She's undoubtedly "pervy" -- her desire appears to be the driving force that put everything in motion in the few weeks she had been in Perugia. She appears to have fucked and stoned relentlessly: as well as effectively moving in with Sollecito the day she met (and fucked) him, according to Sophie Purton's account, and her own admission, she appears to have had frequent casual sexual liasions with a succession of other men. She had men coming round with hash and weed, and had plants growing in the garden. It seems that things got a bit out of hand, culminating with the death of one of Knox's housemates in a sex and drug fuelled night of misadventure. Now it seems to be unravelling like a James M. Cain page turner.
I wonder who'll play the Knox role in the inevitable film?
The dead girl might not have been raped, but at least one man came on her.
Got a link to that Todger?
Do you think that she'll have a go with the jailers?
Who cares who she has a go with, so long as the truth about that night finally sees the light of day. If she's addicted to sex, the bedknobs (if there are any) in her cell probably aren't safe.
truth?
i wonder if we'll ever know it....this case is too messy
Not only that, but the questioning without representation for that long is fishy. Amanda was obviously a partier, but I take everything I hear from UK newspapers and European media in general with a grain of salt. Especially since the McCann case.
For example, how on earth could they know WHOS handprint was on Meridith's face?
Melissa, I understood it as she had pressed so hard fingerprint indentations were left.
Melissa, the measured the length of the brusies and spaces in-between the finger marks which would indicate the proportions of the "actor's" hands. No doubt, there is a formula to take into account how bruises spread with time, and they could figure out how old the bruises were. That's how they'd know it was AK's handmark(s?) and not one of the men.
Heya Kat. *smile* Great minds, eh?
I dont think they can tell at this point whos handprint it was.
If the hand sizes between each guy, and AK were vastly different, they surely could Melissa.
they could if they were able to lift fingerprints
> Got a link to that Todger?
I've been looking back over newspaper articles, trying to find it, thus far without success.
As I recall, there was a quote from the pathologist referring to "dna" from a male on the dead girls body. I understood this phrase to mean a semenal deposit.
Although I haven't found the article, I'm fairly sure it was a UK newspaper, and I think it was either the T*mes or the Torygraph
todger, i read that as well yesterday and came away with the same impression you did.
WHOA ! and I mean rob, joanne, and !
Thought damien and guiseppe were about to go at it a bit much. But you three!!!!!!! rob I appreciated your first post but think you are being a little too sensitive re joane's several remarks, in one of which she corrects herself. Let's focus on subject & not get personal.
And sourcing helps that. For instance, Melissa, from where did you get the conclusion that Meredith wasn't raped? I've not read that the ME has actually changed his findings, but then I've not read either the specific finger marks report that Nana alludes to. Where did that that come from?
If a knife is held to your throat and so in threat of your life, you allow sexual interocurse, that's rape. see my longer take on that well above. (Drat this Haloscan thing has no numbers after the # sign.)
DNA doesnt always mean semen lol. Someone obviously killed her, but it could have been anything that left DNA.
And as for the handprints, did the rags say that they lifted prints? Or measured Amanda's hand for that matter? I read the same rag as you did with that information and I didnt see any mention of it myself. Did I miss it?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?i...tory?
id=3831234
ABC News. Generally a good source.
Robert, as a woman I can tell you that even if you have a knife to your throat and someone tries to have sex with you, rape will be evident. When you arent ready, tearing will happen.
Not to be vulgar, but if that werent so, how could a woman use tampons? When sex is happening and you want it, other things happen.
Do you think the police will give every excruciating detail of their evidence gathering process to the press to satisfy public curiousity Melissa?! This isn't CSI, this is real life.
Bullshit KatK, this is the European press out of control again.
found it..
http://thesun.co.uk/sol/
homepage...ticle435085.ece
There was bodily fluid on Meredith’s corpse from a male attacker.
Police said a post mortem examination revealed that although the Leeds University student was sexually attacked, she had managed to avoid being raped.
But later pathologist Luca Lalli said: “I cannot rule out that sex took place under the threat of violence.”
do you think that AK was sexually abused in past years and now developed a sadistic personality wishing to inflict the same ordeal to other girls?
Melissa, you asked if the press held accounts of the police taking fingerpreints, or measuring AK's hands, as though you expected that of course that information would be released. Get a grip and think before you ask questions if you don't want people to reply to you. *eyebrow* I think that the police have managed to keep some things "close to the breast" and that is why we don't have all the details. Duh...
Bodily fluid can be anything. Not necessarily semen. And might I remind you that you are quoting the Sun?
KatK, they havent kept ANYTHING close to the breast, there is rumor everywhere and we dont know what happened.
We know that Amanda was probably there, MAYBE. The interrogation without representation bothers me a lot. After hours and hours of you did this didnt you, a lot of people make false confessions.
Personally I think she knows something and is scared. Not quite ready to burn her at the stake.
found it here too. i know nothing about the Sun or this source either.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/
news...h_kercher4.html
but when they bodily fluid of a male, that certainly implies semen to me.
Melissa, I see you posted the link while I was typing. The ME amended his initial statements after the arrest to say his conclusions couldn't rule out rape by implied threat.
todger, I gotta say the James M. Cain note seems more & more & more apt, as in Double Indemnity, thought completely without the planning element & without Barbar Stanwyck-self possession.
And thanks, Jackie for addressing the queires. I hope to get back to them & your thoughts.
Melissa, you are mistaking me for someone who is ready to burn AK at the stake.
You can tell male DNA from female DNA whether it be saliva, snot, sweat etc, very easily.
Not discounting that it COULD have happened, but the press in Europe is annoying as are the leaks, some of which are ridiculous.
Oh I wasnt saying you KatK. I am saying in general.
Melissa: the ME hsn't been fully forthcoming on the details of his findings, nor should he at this stage. And it was he who talked directly to the press; there was no leak. The ME was the one who stated that M had had sex but that there were no usual signs of rape, i.e tearing. So lubrication of some sort must have occurred. The moment that M said NO to something, whatever that was, even if after regular sex, it was rape.
I'm begining to have my doubts over the interpretation of the evidence so far, but its not in Amanda's favor. Though ues a truly false confession is still quite possible.
For A Change of Pace:
Her Student Days in Perugia
by Francesca Steel, The Times/Travel.
"I was in Perugia studying Italian on a year abroad as part of my degree five years ago. I was 20 and, like most young foreigners, rather in awe of a group of bar owners and their “crew”. By night they were tending a bar, or rather, one would be giving away drinks at one of the bars they ran while the others would be entertaining girls. Always foreign girls, mind, since, as my flat-mate Silvia explained, an Italian girl wouldn’t have touched them."
continued at
http://tinyurl.com/37hl36
Isnt the ME a female? So far the so called evidence is all screwy.
I really didnt get any hinky feelings from her blogs, other than she is a partier
> Bodily fluid can be anything. Not necessarily semen.
> And might I remind you that you are quoting the Sun?
Yes, the killer(s) might have sneezed ... Achoo! bukakke!
And you might *not* remind me that I'm quoting the Sun, because I'm not--although I might have been paraphrasing the Sun's "upmarket" stablemate, or the Torygraph.
I read the ME's name as male, but hey! I barely passed Spanish to get out of college.
I'm beginning to think there's things WRONG here with the LE conclusions -- especially IF THEY haven't investigated/checked out things like RS's pc usage on the night of 11/1&2, or any of Patrick's alibis, either. I'm buying into Madrid's expressed concerns more & more. Not about what will be evidence but how its been or not been interpreted.
The LAST TIME I remember reading of a lawyer taking that forceful a position in court before a judge was when one of the lawyers did so for a soon to be charged Duke Lacrosse player, the one who had the time-stamped ATM receipts in hand to prove he was elsewhere. And we Ameicans know what Mike Nifong did then--plunged ahead to his utter professional ruin, rather than take 3 steps back and reboot the whole process of evidence review.
That's why I posted The TIMES' set of questions, and why I've been suspicious from the first read of the so-called confessions about the lack of leaked statements from PL. I'm sorry to say this but I think what Madrid detailed may be influencing that part of the case. The ILE did NOT leak any of PL's statements precisely because he mad enone beyond saying I have an alibi go check it! And that didn't fit the swift conclusion Chief Felice wanted.
continue
continued
Now, Madrid & Melissa have cautioned about false confessions I don't think Amanda's confession is totally false--because in both she places HERSELF in the apartment. But then she adds about what she says she heard "but I could imagine [what was happening]" - well she could because she'd already written it. Could indeed be a projection of what she had written on what she now imagines MUST have happened to M.
Yet, if certain things turn out to be TRUE, i.e. provable alibis, then they would indeed strip away a lot more of Amanda's social veneer, revealing a truly ugly interior that she herself may only be confronting for the first time these past few days.
What I mean is that: 1) if Patrick's alibi holds up, i.e. he was at the bar & around the usual haunts, (& note the tense of the second part of what A said about PL on Tuesday, did I want to talk to reporters to learn more about what happened), and 2) Reffaele really was on the phone with dad & net cruising past 1 am,
Amanda's been throwing them under the bus trying to drag them down with her, since her late Monday statement.
So if they weren't there at all, then WHO was in the apartment with Amanda?
Had to have been a man [Amanda's prediliction overall] and, per what Nana wrote, a left-handed man, and one strong enough to both hold a face down and make the cuts. And one who wanted to do just that, to silence the person raped from reporting it.
But why cover for him, Mr. X? Why elaborate a wilder woollier story and drag PL into, and then drag RS into the coverup? [Note that ILE only moved to arrest RS & PL AFTER the late Monday "confession" in which she first places at least PL at the apartment. If they had had more certain phsyical evidence, they would have acted sooner on that.]
Well, he answers himself, perhaps because she's making an hysterical calculation that Mr. X will never be found and so she can act out this "I'm innocent these others made it happen" scenario. (Yes, I am suggesting that you can be both hysterical & calculating at the same time--it would be a preservation instinct, wild-animal trapped response or what I've seen someone in full psychosis do.)
Because only HE, Mr. X, can put her squarely in the room with Meredith not just at the rape, but at the murder. Making her not just an accessory to rape, and so a rapist in her own right, but uniquivocably making her an accessory to murder, so a murderess. He might even be able to argue She goaded Him into it.
Holly way way above called it on the word usage in the short version of the leaked Tuesday confession--the shifting of responsibility onto others. I made another argument in semi-response. BUT if both PL and RS can show alibi for the night of the murder--just the way the ATM Duke fellow could--then I have to agree with Holly.
* Amanda's previously unrealized tastes in psychopathology blossomed when nurtured by drugs & Mr X, and, unaware of the danger, Me
then unaware of the danger, Meredith walked home alone.
Thus, despite what Chief de Felice thinks today, Meredith's direct killer is still out there.
* I'll bet that the male fluid won't match PL or RS, thus proving that Mr X was there and is the most likely killer.
The Knox family just issued this statement:
SEATTLE, Nov. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- The events that have unfolded in Perugia, Italy over the last few days regarding our daughter, Amanda, have shocked and devastated our family. We love our daughter very much and certainly stand by her through this ordeal. We know she is probably frightened and upset about what has happened, and needs all the support her family can give her. We would ask the media to respect the privacy of the members of our families and friends, and refrain from putting further pressure on them for interviews and comment, especially our children.
Robert M, there is a number after #. Just move your mouse over the # and you will see the URL on the bottom of your browser. The final 5 digits is the post number.
The whole investigation looks like a quick frame to me, and has from the beginning. I don't doubt Amanda was in the house, but I feel certain her Italian boyfried had nothing to do with the murder. Patrick's lawyer stated with certainty that he had an alibi. Like Robert M., I'm reminded of the Duke injustices.
I hope the Italian police get busy and find the real killer. Surely they're smart enough to realize he's still out there.
The situation reminds me of the mayor in "Jaws" who wouldn't allow public shark warnings because he'd lose tourist income if the danger became known.
“I think other reasons for some of the commenters' prejudices in her favor are that she's middle-class and was going to college. I get the feeling that a lot of people on this blog are 20-40 years older than she is, and working-class. Maybe they think going to an unselective college and spending a year abroad is something really special, more like it was 30 years ago (when far fewer people did such things).”
Are you KIDDING me? Wow. I was thinking that I’m not CONVINCED of her guilt as some other posters, specifically because of the way the LE in the McCann case has acted. Forgive me if I’ve become less than trusting of the media, as well. But “20-40 years older than she is, and working class?” All I can say is your arrogance outweighs any comments you may have made, or will make in the future. IMO, of course.
“it is a well known fact that the American PEOPLE themselves, blowhardy as we may be, are some of the most generous people around. Which will be as evident (and as taken for granted) as it always is the next time there is some disaster and we are the first nation there giving out blankets and food and medicine.”
Amen, Pennies. Funny how that works. IIRC, Americans gave the most monetarily, when the tsunami hit in Malaysia, in 2004. Evil-doers that we are. {eyeroll}
“ Then it would seem she's done for.”
Floh, PLEASE take everything you read in the media, with a ton of salt.
I'm less than 20 years older than AK, though I guess you could call our household "working class". I've adopted a "wait and see" approach to see what each side has to say. I didn't see anything odd about AK at first, but the more I read her entries the more I began to sense an undercurrent in her personality that I think she is very good at covering with smokescreens. That doesn't make her a murderess, or an accomplice to rape and murder though.
I am less than 20 years older as well, definitely working class (who doesnt work?) But I dont sense the undercurrent, other than a partier who found herself in a bad place.
She looks like a deer caught in the headlights to me.
Scenario that is more plausible to me at this point....
Too much alcohol, too many drugs, (she cant remember stuff). She knows something bad is going down, but is not in the right state of mind to do anything. Being in a blackout stage would definitely put someones alibi in a bind, especially if it came back to her the next day in bits and pieces.
This is the scenario that seems most likely to me.
But like the people willing to think she is guilty without any kind of real evidence besides rumors, I may be wrong as well.
I want to know more about the old lady who received a threatening phone call on a mobile phone which belonged to the dead girl. The elderly lady's report to the police was what led them to the murder scene. Officers were approaching the murder house at the time RS was calling the police.
I'd also be interested in the details of evidence found in a neighboring house whose occupants were away at the time. It's been reported that the killer used their bathroom to clean himself after he fled the murder scene.
Yeah, that is something that caused my eyebrows to brush my hairline also. It's just *BIZARRE*! A phone is ringing, that isn't hers, yet she answers it anyway, and assumes threats being made over it are directed at *her*?! *BLINK*
I'm betting the bar owner has been "set up" - he's been there the longest - would have the most to lose - probably picks up on the "tourists" regularly, but not this way.
I find myself agreeing with Robert M.and have read some reports regarding unidentified fingerprints (I will bet non-matching DNA when that gets back) Unfortunately I am a writer and I see several scenarios which include some of suspects AT SOME POINT and the recollections of our hopped up AK (read she was into hash in Perugia) are not always intentionally inaccurate. For example what if she is mistaken about who was in with Meredith?
Update: Amanda's fingerprint was found on Meredith's face placing her at the scene of the attack. According to reports Amanda pressed her face down so hard that an imprint was left on her face. My bf is an attorney and he says she is DONE.
Gen...I agree but I think she was "done" long before that...like when she became perceived in Italy as an uppity drunken drugged-out slutty American blond in direct connection to a hideous crime. Of course she may be, I dunno, but I would love to see the "evidence" Is this "pressing in the face so hard" imprint visible to the naked eye? But I agree with your bf...she will not be needing her Huskie tickets.
Interesting background piece on being a foreign student in Perugia though the author seems to sense the unsavory nature of the bar scene she likely doesn't know there is even another layer beneath that.
http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/
...icle2834591.ece
Also there is Perugia Blog written in English as a second language which mentions some think Lumumba was a "domineering" character.
Is there any evidence that precludes the following scenario:
Meredith had some consensual sexual activity with some man or men earlier in the evening. After they left, Knox came into her bedroom and stabbed her for the thrill of it, or perhaps out of anger or jealousy. (Meredith was "skinny," and Knox looks chunky and sturdy in the pictures she posted.) Then she tried to cover up the crime, perhaps enlisting the help of other men who might have been there that night. Perhaps she threatened them to get their help -- said they'd get blamed themselves for rape and murder.
Did anyone here ever read Chuck Pahlaniuk's "Haunted?" The story was mainly about wannabe writers doing insane, self-harming and brutal things simply for fodder. Not saying that's typical behavior, of course -- just a possible motive in this case. She wanted to be special and original, and extreme behavior was the only way she could do it.
Are you KIDDING me? Wow. I was thinking that I’m not CONVINCED of her guilt as some other posters, specifically because of the way the LE in the McCann case has acted. Forgive me if I’ve become less than trusting of the media, as well. But “20-40 years older than she is, and working class?” All I can say is your arrogance outweighs any comments you may have made, or will make in the future. IMO, of course.
Wow, Soobs, I don't see what I said to deserve that. What's so "inexcusably arrogant" about a demographic statement (one I pretty much fit, by the way)?
No insult was intended. I'll admit I really don't want this woman painted as a gifted achiever or bold adventuress, and I could see those labels being tempting because they add glamor to the story. (Steve chapped me a little by referring to her alleged "demonstrable intellect," which I don't think is demonstrated at all. ) I think that many people still accord college students -- any student of any college -- a special reverence that is less merited nowadays than it used to be. The same reverence is often accorded to young people who travel. I'm worried her attendance at UW and her travel to Italy will lead the public to view her too favorably. I don't think she deserves that. She's shown no signs of being anything above average for a middle-class white girl, except with her excessive behavior.
Sky News is reporting that a bloody knife was found at RS apartment, but police aren't confirming it yet. (click Homepage link for story)
From Sky News again... "Updated:07:28, Friday November 09, 2007... An imprint found on the face of murdered British student Meredith Kercher reportedly matches Amanda Knox's fingerprints, a hearing in Italy has been told."
(I'm pretty computer savvy, but new to this whole blog posting thing. Previewing this entry doesn't show the link, so if this is the case it's a bit embarrassing not to be able to embed links like other posters...How do ya do it? Duh! Thx!)
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1292165,00.html
Never mind... the link doesn't show in the preview but does get posted. 
P.S. When I noted the difference in the two women's body types, I was trying to make a case that Amanda could have overpowered Meredith, at least if she got the jump on her.
Holly's Note: I'm worried her attendance at UW and her travel to Italy will lead the public to view her too favorably.
Not to worry: at least people in Seattle know except for the hospital...UW is no big deal. I do not see her however, as the thrill kill type.
This was a sex thing with at least one male (goading each other on) which got violent when M resisted and the guy went off on M with the knife and I do not think meant to kill her...I think it was the killer calling the next morning "threatening" the old lady (thinking it was M) who picked up Ms bloody cell phone. I wonder if the killer even knew she was dead. By the way...no reports of cuts, bruises, marks on any of the three suspects? That would be odd if M was fighting for her life. You would think they would want to leak that.
Has anyone else got a horrible feeling that this case is going to take ages to come to trial, as the three testify and plea bargain against each other thus prolonging the agony for Meredith Kercher's family (not that they will ever get over it)?
The judge has just confirmed the arrest of the 3 suspects, all accused of rape and murder. They will remain in prison for up to a year as they wait for the trial. Suuuurely, at this point, we can say the police have proof that all three were in the room at the time of the murder.
...just to clarify...the judge says there are sufficent grounds to keep the 3 in prison as the investigation continues. In Italy, this is possible for up to 1 year. My suuurely is less sure. It all depends on the scientific evidence at the scene and the 2 alibis.
Only a question: how did you read her blog? How did you cerate mirrored page? I know Amanda's blog was private. Thanks for information.
Laura
What is sure, however...
AK was there.
MK was gang raped, stabbed 3 times and then left to die.
Forensics will tell us if P or R were there. How long does it take for this kind of scientific analysis to be done? I have no idea..do the police have this information now?
The analysis will take months and months.
Thanks blimetheckers...but surely they can check the fingerprints found in the room with the suspects now?! and the semen samples...would that take longer?
the latest twist is that a man in Rome recieved a text message 2 days before the killing...'for me, Meredith dies tonight or tomorrow' The police are trying to trace it...if this is accurate!!! For what its worth 'for me' sounds like an italian speaker...'per me'
Well, they might only have her fingerprints...no one elses. It certainly won't get done in a month, the labs will have other crimes they are working on and this one will go to the back of the queue I suspect. I could very well be wrong, but I think this is going to take a long time to come to trial, because of the nature of the case and three defendants.
police rushed the case is not solved. It's going to take a long time I think.
Especially if the do not find traces of P and R in A an M's house
Laura, the blog (and her whole myspace page) wasn't private untill yesterday, and was available to view in full by everyone untl someone (presumably one of her friends or family) got into the account and set it to private. I read through her site and blog and alos through that of many of her frineds (to see the comments she had been leaving for her friends), but one by one they were all setting them to private, obvisouly aware of the public interest.
Laura:
I sent you an e-mail about the blog. It wasn't private at first. It wasn't hard to find at the time. I saved the code and re-uploaded it to my own server.
All: One thing about the investigation into this case so far... I don't know about the gendarmerie there in Perugia in particular, but my understanding is that Italian law enforcement in general has a better rep worldwide than some other European agencies. All countries will have corruption in LE, but Italian cops have solved some pretty complex and gruesome crimes in the past, and they've been fighting the Mafia forever and a day.
I've begun to understand the criticism heaped on the Portuguese authorities investigating the McCann disappearance -- the change in the top cop investigating was a red flag there.
Here, I may be inclined to have a bias in favor of Italians after all those years I've spent learning the art of opera and the language that dominates that art, but I've read up on some pretty storied true crime cases from the Boot, and they do some good sleuthing there when they want.
The Judge states that M. was killed by the knife of R. who used to bring it always with himself
Well said Steve! I know Palermo LE have produced 'results' under tremendous pressure from inside and out.
As for this case I find it interesting especially following the Euro angle from Portugal and the McCanns being used to front the drive for a pan-EU LE/investigative body. Now this case brings in the US and to some degree the interest of Africa's elite class to the argument for a pan-boundary LE..
Will we all have SIM cards as ID and monetary instruments? I reckon so if what's occurring in London is anything to go by.
Hysteria and misinformation (like people posting inaccurate info on this blog) are the conditions that exist before totalitarian and fascist factions take power.
When the current credit crisis hits depression stage God help us becuse the individual crimes we examine here will pale in comparison to an over-arching 'new world order'.
lordy, lordy, duck and cover
I'd heard they were examining one of his knives...has it been confirmed as the murder weapon?
Corriere and Repubblica report the judge saying that was R.'s knife but I don't know on what grounds she claims this.
If it was confirmed by the forensic analysis R. and A. are in deep shit. P. could have been indicated as an escape goat by A.
This post probably a bit late now as all the suspects are being possibly held in Jail for up to a year. But there are so many unanswered questions in this case. I’m not even sure they will be ever answered. Some of this is a bit of rehash I apologise in advance. I’m a bit of bad speller but I hope this makes sense.
The Times
Newspapers in Perugia reported that police believe a fourth person may have been involved after the discovery of a heel imprint in the cottage and a fingerprint on Ms Kercher’s blood-soaked pillow that “do not correspond to the three suspects”. Who is the 4th person, Is it a male or female?
Two have reported seeing Ms Knox at a launderette washing clothes and a pair of trainers after the murder. – Who clothes and trainers was she washing, was she washing her clothes or Meredith clothes.
The message saying "For me, tomorrow or tonight Meredith dies" was sent two days before the London exchange student was found dead in a pool of blood after her throat was cut. – Who sent this message .this means the murder was premeditated by someone. Why would someone want to kill Meredith? Did Meredith have some information about something or someone?
The daily mail has stated this - However it is believed none of this DNA evidence belongs to Lumumba "Patrick" Diya, the bar manager who Amanda Knox has suggested was the one who cut Meredith's throat.
Mr Lumumba's lawyers said last night he had denied ever going to the house. He was said to have told the judge that he was working. His lawyers said there were "witnesses and documentary proof" of this. – If this true why is still being held. Is there something else which is not being said publicly?
Daily Mail - On her My space page, Knox, who has German ancestry on her mother's side, jokes that she is secretly a Nazi. What does that mean she believes in the Aryan race and all others should be destroyed or she just admitting to being part German
A picture of her laughing and posing while holding a machine gun in Germany has the caption: 'The Nazi on the inside
The police bugged Knox's mobile phone and she was overheard telling Sollecito on Monday night: "I cannot do it any more, I cannot bear it." – What could she not bear knowing who killed Meredith or something else, if so what?
Mr Lumumba admitted to Ms Matteini that he had met Ms Kercher a month before her death. This, however, contradicts his claim made at the time of his arrest that he did not know her at all. – Why did he lie about knowing Meredith or was just not familiar with her name.
When she came into my bar the first time, she asked me for a vodka," he said. "We immediately became friends, and she was going to do PR at my venue; she was going to hand out flyers. She would have been ideal, as she knew so many people and had so many friends. She made friends really easily
I read a quote I think the Sun or Mirror newspaper. A local resident or student had described Patrick as creepy and th
Damian: I've seen that report too, about the text message saying 'Meredith dies...etc'. It is seriously weird if it is true- the guy in Rome(- not Perugia!? I wonder if we'll ever find out if he has any link to Perugia?) claims that he didn't recognise the number it came from and just deleted it. The person who has reported it could just be an attention seeker trying to get 15 seconds of fame. But if not- kids (and those slightly older too, I'd guess) sometimes play around with mobile phones, ringing random numbers and talking to strangers, leaving silly messages or 'bluetoothing' pictures and files to anyone within range. Could the sending of this text message be a much more macabre variation on this theme- sending a message of intent out into the ether to a random number? (A little like the YouTube video that preceded this week's school massacre in Finland?) If the police can find a record of the text message to verify that it really was recieved, and trace it to the phone of someone in Perugia and/or who knew Meredith, I'd say its very strong evidence of premeditation, and also of immaturity. Something that Amanda Knox's blog smacked of from beginning to end, IMHO (anyone else shocked at the childish, blase way in which she dismissed and blew off that once-in-a-lifetime work experience post her uncle set up for her in Germany? Ingrate! I don't often feel like slapping someone, and never would, but the girl was an idiot not to at least try to make the most of that opportunity).
FWIW, I've been a student on and off for the past 14 years (and for the record, am now three years into my PhD and would conside myself professional, rather than working class- but I am STILL less than 20 years older than Amanda Knox ). I have shared houses and apartments at home and abroad with a wide variety of people. About 10 years ago I spent a short time in Perugia with similar housemates, in similar circumstances and in a similar house to the one this happened in. I even attended some classes at the Universita per Stranieri (although it was a friend rather than myself who was the student there- I was just visiting) It doesn't sound like its changed much in the last decade, since I'd agree with the people who have more recent experience of the place, that it is a small and friendly town, the old town part at least, with a thriving student social scene. I'd guess that although people might be a little more promiscuous there now than they were then, there are still all types of people living there, and not all the students are promiscuous, binge-drinking, drug-taking 'partiers'. (The girls that Meredith went to watch a video with, in one of whom she appears to have confided, for example, sound like they *might* have been living a quite different, and quiter lifestyle to Amanda Knox). We always hear all about the 'pratying' but there are always other, tamer forms of socialising going on in any town and even in any student community...I wonder
I read a quote I think the Sun or Mirror newspaper. A local resident or student had described Patrick as creepy and that he had asked her out on a date which she declined.
Police believe that Ms Kercher knew her killer well enough to open the door to him. It emerged yesterday that traces of blood had been found not only in the cottage, which she shared with three housemates, but also in another cottage on the hillside below them, rented by four Italian students from the Le Marche region. Reports said that the killer appeared to have cleaned himself up after the bloody murder not only at Ms Kercher’s house but also in the one below, to which he evidently had a key, since there was no sign of a break-in.
The four students from Le Marche were not in the house at the time. All have alibis, police said. – Have these alibis being checked. Its quite strange that the killer was able to use the bathroom downstairs, was the door open for the killer if there was no forced entry or did he have a key. Could the killer be one of men who lives downstairs.
I also read a quote somewhere possibly in the Sun newspaper with Sollecito’s had told reporters that Meredith Boyfriend lived in the flat downstairs.
On the investigators’ files is a statement from two men who came forward on 3 November. “Early yesterday afternoon”, they say, “we went to the coin-operated laundry in Via Fabretti to do our washing. It was about 1.30 pm. We wandered off for a few minutes and when we got back to the Laundromat we saw a woman and a foreigner. The foreigner left when we arrived. In front of the woman, we commented on the foreigner’s curious behaviour. She said that the foreigner had staggered in shortly before and put his washing into the machine, including some blue Nike trainers. Then he left and got stuck in the door but quickly managed to freed himself. A little later, he came back and we saw him take his washing out of the machine and put it in the dryer. The woman said she had seen him rummaging in a rubbish skip with another foreigner. He’s about one metre 75 tall with olive skin and must be North African”. It is not known who the man is or whether his odd behaviour has anything to do with the murder. At this stage, however, investigators do not want to overlook any details as they seek to discover whether any other people may have been involved in the murder – Who is this man is one of Amanda’s men, is he the real killer or the 4th Man?
The old lady who picked up Meredith phone, what did the threats say, why would anyone being threading Meredith. I can only guess it was about not going to the police after being assaulted – Could the call come from a u/k male or PL as they wouldn’t know she was dead.
I did think of a possible scenario. I don’t know how viable it is. Amanda and PL or U/k Male sexually assault Meredith. After Amanda sobers up she realises what she has done and begs Meredith not to go the police. Meredith refuses. Amanda goes to Collection ask
"I don't see what I said to deserve that. What's so "inexcusably arrogant" about a demographic statement (one I pretty much fit, by the way)?"
I read your comment as the only reason one would find her innocent (I am not there, but I do have big questions about all the "leaks" and "facts" of the case as they've been presented so far)is if they were 20-40 years older than her, and were "working class" (whatever that means. Maids? Educated persons working for others?) As if not believing anything the media prints (they are notorious for printing and saying anything that will sell papers - then not even printing a retraction when proven wrong) or finding it peculiar that LE has stated "case closed" less than a week after the murder (CSI effect?)or even the fact that LE is talking - how can we be sure what they are leaking, is what took place? And in what context?
I just don't believe your assertion that old people, who work for a living and may have studied abroad "30 years ago" are the only people who have questions about her guilt. And I do believe that was the thrust of your previous post.
...I wonder if Meredith, who although clearly sociable, appears by all accounts to have been the slightly 'quieter' type, thought she would be safe moving in with three other girls, and then found she was the 'odd one out' when it came to lifestyle? Its happened to me, and I'm sure many others, especially during the student experience- kind of a case of 'marry in haste, repent at leisure' on the accommodation front. When you are young, inexperienced, excited, and desperate for a place to live, you often find one in a hurry, sign a legally binding contract, and then spend up to a year regretting it because of what you then find out about the people you have to share with. It can be MISERABLE having to live with people you don't like or connect with, and I speak from experience.
There's another saying that comes to mind that might apply- that 'you spend the first three weeks of your unversity experience making friends that you then spend the next three years trying to get rid of.' Of course, that isn't meant to suggest murder! But I cant help but wonder, IF this was premeditated, and Knox was directly involved in Meredith's killing, was it the culmination of a clash of personalities (one of them perhaps disordered or otherwise abnormal?) and lifestyles, that had become increasingly irritating to Amanda over the weeks they had been living together? Could the murder have come about partly as a reaction to Meredith's perceived disapproval of Amanda and the company she was keeping?
This story is shocking- especially the apparent heavy involvement of Amanda Knox, who looks superficially like a sweet young girl. I do find it strange that she didn't mention Meredith once on her blog- do we know when Meredith actually moved in to the cottage?
"Suuuurely, at this point, we can say the police have proof that all three were in the room at the time of the murder."
In the past, I may have conceded that point. However, after spending 18 months watching the worst case of prosecutorial misconduct, violation of civil rights, LYING in court, and in court documents, HIDING exculpatory evidence, just because one man wanted to win an election (and have no doubt, Durham PD, as well as the Mayor, and others were complicit and will go DOWN)...call me jaded.
" Only a question: how did you read her blog? How did you cerate mirrored page? I know Amanda's blog was private. Thanks for information"
Laura, please know that NOTHING is private, on the web. NOTHING. Anything you wish to be private....well, start a diary and burn it, or keep it in your head. Seriously, people are under the misimpression that there is privacy on the internet. There isn't.
I agree Giuseppe..A and R are in deep shit...also because the police have found no record of the supposed phone call with his doctor daddy at 11 that night. If Patricks alibi holds and there is no proof he was at the house, why are they still holding him? And the fourth person??? Apparently he's an Algerian who works with Patrick at his bar
The old lady who picked up Meredith phone, what did the threats say, why would anyone being threading Meredith. I can only guess it was about not going to the police after being assaulted – Could the call come from a u/k male or PL as they wouldn’t know she was dead.
I did think of a possible scenario. I don’t know how viable it is. Amanda and PL or U/k Male sexually assault Meredith. After Amanda sobers up she realises what she has done and begs Meredith not to go the police. Meredith refuses. Amanda goes to Solectio asking for help and he brings his knives (he apparently always carry a pen knife) Amanda holds her down while Solectio slits her throat and possibly stabs her 3 times. They attempt the clean up and make it look like someone broke in, a few trips to bathroom to wash the blood. They lock the door and smash the window (I read somewhere the window was broken from the inside) and leave the house and take my mobile phones so Meredith can call for help.
I personally believe that what Amanda Knox is not telling the truth. I believe there are more suspects. I think Amanda is lying about what happen on that night. Im not even sure her versions of events are correct. There is a possibly something else was going on. I find the whole sex party /orgy gone wrong a bit difficult to believe.
I think the Italian police are too eager to declare the case closed to make citizens of Perugia feel safe. I believe only forensics will answer the questions in this case. I believe Amanda hasn’t being entirely honest. Sollectio has admitted lying to police. Patrick hasn’t been entirely truthful declaring he did not know Meredith.
All three suspects seem intelligent and bright individuals and Im not sure how things could of escalated to Meredith being murdered unless she was murdered for another reason. Two of the suspects have openly displayed a dark side. If they were trying to cover their tracks they have done an extremely bad job. There is forensics all over the flat and mobile phones being disposed of near the scene.
was P an amanda's fuck buddy?
I wonder if when she was quoted as saying "I met Patrick on November 1", what she meant was that she met UP with him that morning? And when it's quoted as her saying "I want to tell you what happened..." we don't know what that was in response to....did the police confront her and ask her if she wanted to tell them what happened?
One thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I can tell, all the bits of statements have been translated from Italian into English (probably, in Amanda's case, after first being translated from English into Italian). This can play havoc with nuances.
The Italian 'ho incontrato Patrick' would translate literally as 'I met Patrick', but there isn't the subtext of 'for the first time' that could be inferred in English. I'd take it to mean 'I met up with Patrick' or 'I ran into Patrick'.
The same applies to most of the translated snippets. Nuances go funny.
On the tangent about various nationalities and promiscuity... From what I've seen, people of all nationalities are more likely to sleep around when they're away from home - wherever home may be. You're on holiday, you're on a year away, it feels like your normal rules just don't apply. So the locals, in every country, are left with the impression that Those Tourists Are A Buncha Sluts.
On telegraph.co.uk :
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
'From reading the first summary of Dr Lalli's report, deposited at the court on November 8 2007, after the autopsy on the corpse of Meredith Kercher, it emerges that the wound had not hit the carotide artery so the death was preceded by a relatively slow agony, circumstances which allow use to date back the time of the criminal act to between 21.30pm and 11.30pm on the day of November 1 2007, a timetable which tallies with the consumption of dinner in an hour before 9pm.'
(Except from a translation of the official police report on the murder of Meredith Kercher, obtained by the Telegraph)
'The attention of the investigators centred, however, on Knox Amanda and her boyfriend, Sollecito Raffaele.
In the first place, when it comes to these two, it has been shown that despite their affirmations to the Postal Police, it is not true that they had called 112 for the intervention of the Carabinieri military police, thinking that they had suffered a blow.
In fact, from our investigation it emerged that the Postal Police arrived at 12.35 while the call to 112 came at 12.51 and 12.54, circumstances that suggest a conduct that they wished it to be thought they had been surprised outside the building where the homicide was carried out. '
(On telegraph.co.uk :
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg)
'while Lumumba was in the court hearing he confirmed that he had opened the pub in the afternoon of November 1 at around 1700 to 1800. The first receipts are shown to start from 22.29 and the suspect was not able to give any logical explanation for these circumstances, and was not able to furnish precise indications of the eventual clients who could attest to his presence in the pub before 22.29...
..It must be further added that in the moment when this judge put the contestation to the suspect, he remained in silence for a few minutes seeking to justify the "gap" by saying the receipts started not from the moment of order but when the client left the pub.
However, this justification does not hold up in as far as it does not explain how from 1800 to 2229 there were no receipts and these only started from 22.29 to closing time. More discrepancies about the closing time of the pub before its stated closing time came in the statements of one of its habitual clients, Vulcano Gerardo Pasquale, who was heard for the first time on November 7 2007, who said on the evening of the 1 November, towards 1900 that the pub was closed'.
(On telegraph.co.uk
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
Lili- I agree totally with your comment- I think everyone explores beyond their normal boundaries and tries out new things when they are away from their usual environment and circumstances. That doesn't have to mean sexual promiscuity, of course, but often does. Being away from all things familiar often has an effect on one's inhibitions. Again, I find myself wondering whether this 'new environment' factor, and its possible effect on inhibitions and grasp on reality, played a part in Amanda Knox's alleged involvement in either the sexual assault, the murder, or both? Her creative writing does suggest that she was somewhat of a dark fantasist- I can understand why whoever it was earlier suggested that she might have been fancying herself as a bit of a Henry Miller-esque leading lady in some sort of European 'Noir' tale?
UPDATE: Knife belonging to RS IS the murder weapon.
The judge investigating the murder of Meredith Kercher has identified a knife belonging to Raffaele Sollecito, the Italian boyfriend of Ms Kercher's American flatmate Amanda Knox, as the murder weapon.
Giving the reasons for her decision to allow the detention of Mr Sollecito, Ms Knox and Patrick Diya Lumumba, Judge Claudia Matteini said that the knife was used to first threaten and then kill Ms Kercher.
She said the weapon, believed to be a flick knife, was one that Mr Sollecito "always carried with him". It had been used to cut Ms Kercher's throat, Judge Matteini said, although it was not yet established who had wielded the knife to deal the mortal blow.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2841412.ece
Update: The knife belonging to RS IS the Murder weapon per judge today. Holy crap, these kids are in deep s**t. What the hell would possess them to do something like this? As for Patrick, I have no idea.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2841412.ece
According to that Times article, she is writing her version of events in her cell?
WTF? Like her short story about the two brothers?
On another note, I speak Italian, and I read in the Italian press that the bodily residue that was found on her body was not semen but it did imply sexual activity. Was it pubic hair or saliva then? I would guess pubic hair.
I just wanted to say that I have changed my mind about Amanda. I think it is obvious that she and Sollecito are involved in the murder. I think it is still a question whether Lumumba is involved-- if he really does have these witnesses, he should be breathing free and easy.
Amazing that Sollecito brought the murder weapon with him to the police interview. This is either a cluelessness that is so profound as to be shocking or else and arrogance that is so profound as to be shocking. It's one of those-- the other possibility is that the police are completely wrong about the murder weapon, and he brought the pen knife because he assumed he had nothing to hide.
Wow-- confusing case.
This morning I just want to second Lili's point about translations, whether its by a UK reporter doing a very quick & literal job on the Judge's Report (again at here & doesn't that make interesting reading)
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
A phrase like "thinking that they had suffered a blow", re when PS called police, leaves me scratching my head as to colloguial meaning. AND, more imporantly, its only a partial translation of the whole report, which either the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph report stretched out over 6 1/2 hours (I'm presuming each peson had a separate hearing).
The DT does a better job of presenting the Fourth Person scenario at
http://tinyurl.com/3ypzoz
As Gen & seatllite note above, IF & I stress IF there is a CLEAR & wholly identifiable fingerprint of A's in blood on M's face, then she is indeed Guilty. There's many a person now in US prisons based on blood evidence, even just a drop, & there's also the oppsoite--those released based on failure to match under present techniques.
But with all due respect to Steve's, point, which I shared at the beginning just based on the amount of resoruces the ILE threw at this case, its the Interpretation of Evidence that has rasied my eyebrows now. Especially re RS' flick knife/knives. If no blood evidence on that, it can be coutneres that there are plenty of such knives around and its common for young men to carry them for ll manner of purposes.
The prelim judge has accepted the INITIAL evidence presentation on it sface value. I'd suspect that, expecially in murder level cases, a prelim judge does that in at least 95% of the cases. Better safe than sorry. Damien, this is where myself & soobs are coming from. Not that the evidence is cooked but that its a matter of interpretation and of oruse we are only seeing selected bits through the haze of translation.
And erhw thanks for sharing that personal perspective of student lviign & perugia.
Reports in the Italian press also suggest that 120 diffent pieces of DNA evidence have been retrieved from the crime scene where Meredith was murdered.
However it is believed none of this DNA evidence belongs to Lumumba "Patrick" Diya, the bar manager who Amanda Knox has suggested was the one who cut Meredith's throat.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...r409.xml&
page=3
Interesting about Patrick that none of his DNA was in the room. I wonder why they are still holding him.
"Thinking the suffered a blow" is the literal translation for "thinking they had suffered a break-in."
Mssiy re this comment by you:
Daily Mail notes that "On her My space page, Knox, who has German ancestry on her mother's side, jokes that she is secretly a Nazi." What does that mean? She believes in the Aryan race and all others should be destroyed or she just admitting to being part German? A picture of her laughing and posing while holding a machine gun in Germany has the caption: 'The Nazi on the inside'.
Well for one thing it shows a real lack of getting over the reality of the Holocaust in even private Jesuit education in history. The vast majority of kids her age don't have a real grasp of what the Nazis did & what the German people accepted. (Heck just remember the trouble Prince H got into re his party get-up a few years back.) And without that knowledge its real easy to act insensitive & silly/stupid as in the photo. Then too Amanda 's snaps that have made it to the papers almost all show a person who loves to mug for the camera, a normal trait. The former is a cultural lack that leads to insenitivity matching up with normal screwing around. Its only in the light of Meredith's death that it seems to have meaning. It doesn't. She's first & foremost an American suburban girl who, up to this point, was indeed making something out of her opportunities.
As was Meredith. Two "similar coins" or even two sides of the same "well-educated, intelligent girl goes abroad for this century's version of the Grand Tour" -- so similar & yet one is dead & the other is accused of her murder.
Robert M. | 11.08.07 - 7:35 pm | #
Robert M. | 11.08.07 - 8:35 pm | #
Robert M: You must be confusing my comments with others', or else I'm misreading your reference to my comments. I did not say anything about evidence of fingerprints being found on MK's face, although I did suggest that MK may have already been in bed, and was therefore at a huge disadvantage in protecting herself from her attackers.
I haven't read all published articles about this case, and would very much appreciate it if commenters would link articles when they quote them.
About MK's phone: I thought MK's phone had been used to SEND a threatening message to an older lady, then someone made a comment about the lady finding MK's phone and hearing a threatening msg sent TO MK's phone.
Which is it? Anybody have the article handy?
RobertM, just to add to your comment about her being a 'nazi on the inside', you can see on the youtube video that she is sitting among friends, one of whom is a jew. Another guy is having a joke wth him and calling him a dirty f*ing jew. It certainly isn't being said maliciously and just seems to be a group of silly kids messing around. Amanda, irrespective of what she may or may not be guilty of, doesn't come across as a nazi believer in the aryan race
Ah, Madrid! Thanks for the translation of the translation. It was "suffered" that threw me -- well "blow" too. I guessing an american cop would have written "thinking the house had been burglarized." But that's typical of the various translations done by either English-speaking Italian stringers for the UK reports. hey need a re-write deskman but those are likely not staffed any more.
Nana, the second version you report re old lady & phone is the version that appeared in the first UK paper write-ups. I'd click on Steve's man links first & then the early links posted here to find it. Later rewrites may have shifted the emphasis.
But 1) old lady found phone, 2) old lady accessed message [unclear whether it was a text or a direct call she took while holding the cell], 3) old lady took offense, 4) old lady reported it to police, 5) police traced cell number to Meredith, 6) police arrived at houe to find A & R, 7) R having supposedly just called his sister, a police lieutenant, to ask her what should he do [despite what the prelim judge wrote, this point, that R called sister, has not been challenged in print].
If I've confused a comment of yours with another's, sorry! I'll try to check later.
Also, Madrid, you wrote: According to that Times article, she is writing her version of events in her cell? WTF? Like her short story about the two brothers?
Better not be, as that'd cook her goose even more than it already is, based SOLELY on her "two confessions". * BY HER OWN ADMISSION, SHE PLACES HERSELF AT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME. * And that's BEFORE any fingerprint/blood evidence might prove conclusive. I don't know how she could retract THAT at this point. Her lawyer's got a task even before the physical evidence. I'm wondering if the final document will be more of a J'Accuse than a St. Augustinian Confessio.
I'd suspect that her lawyer, 1) having told her to "shut up!" [she invoked her right to remain silent at hearing], now 2) needs to have a document in English that gives her more "considered version" of what happened so as to a) bring him up to speed with the help of her mother, working from both an English & Italian version, and b) so he can use it in juxtaposition with the physical evidence when he gets to see that--whenever. Also, it clearly gives her something to do, and it helps focus her thinking to boot. She is good at paragraphing correctly (the Jesuits, again). The person who is SAID to have told RS over her cell phone "I can't take it anymore" is someone who, for whatever specific reason(s), was getting overwhelmed by internal conflicts.
Which is why 1) the ILE went after her so directly in interrogation (the lions sensing vulvernability), and 2) why she got a psychologist to see her yesterday, likely at either prison staff request or her lawyers' request [is she suicidal?].
Of course, this is the perfect opportunity for her to request an Italian dictionary & a copy of Harry Potter in Italian to work on her proper vocabulary, an idea she blogged about. With some facility for picking up language, I'm sure she's already getting the useful daily slang down, as I think "!" suggested in his/her colloquial manner way above.
Me? I'd give her also all three volumes of Dante, along with John Ciardi's American translation for aid. And maybe a copy of the recent thriller The Dante Club as a further instrument of personal reflection.
Ah. For a language-deaf person like myself, to see my ex-w sight read any Romance language was like experiencing a conjuring trick. (I know she could dream in French, her official other language.) When Steve referred to A's "intellectual talents", this is part of what he meant, I'm sure. And I automatically extended that comment in my mind to Meredith, as re the two coins comment above.
I think I'll keep spelling out Meredith's name. Resto nella pace.
we need more crime prevention. young female students shouldn't be allowed to go abroad
the judge says that A and R spent the afternoon smoking pot. After cruising a couple of bars in town, they met up with P outside the university for foreigners and went back to A's house. Meredith was already there or came back soon after. (Patrick had wanted A's help in getting together with Meredith) A and R went into A's room and P went into Meredith's room. Then R (presumably with A)went into Meredith's room, suggesting (the judge) that he wanted to join them. Meredith refused and was killed
Requiescat in Pacem, dear Robert.
Et lux perpetuam luceat eae.
(It's latin anyway)
p.s. the prelim judge version, as reported by Italian newspaper, is as for now that a meeting between PL and MK had been organised by AK; PL went at 9pm and he and MK left off to MK's room. Then RS arrived, he and AK begun partying, RS insisted to join MK and PL in MK's room, then "something wrong" happened. It's not still clear which are the responsibilities of each of the three, but they all were on crime scene, and left it with a considerable hurry and in an incredible mess due to shock.
No one here mentions PL's alibi anymore.
BTW, in my opinion erhw's point on difficulties in cohabitation makes particularly sense as deep motive of the crime. I've been in Erasmus myself (I'm Italian and apologise about my english..in all case i have lived in France) and I can understant that the sense of isolation arising from living abroad and nasty neighbours may drive you crazy (though not until murder of course.)
where did u get this from Damian?
Don't we know all that Damian, from yesterday? Is there anything new there?
Damian, you're right. The three first met then moved to AK&MK apart, where M eventually arrived later. Anyway, it seems that PL and MK were left alone in the girl's room for a while (was she still willing at this point?) and then the reconstruction follows the path I mentioned.
! the judges report I found on www.telegraph.co.uk
Sorry Madrid...it came out this morning over here and I've been working all day...
Within the year of imprisonment, I presume the prosecution can build it's case, and then hopefully it can come quickly to trial. I presume it is a bit like being 'on remand' in the UK?
http://tinyurl.com/2ls4yy
Judge's official report in Telegraph.
"Extreme sex game"
Madrid re Damian's comment. Actually, no. If you put together the Daily T & the Dail M online re-writes, which do get new headlines as they are re-written over the course of the day, you'll see that both papers go with different details from the Judge's report. The DM's translated version reads:
A short while later Meredith returned or she could have already been there went into her bedroom with Patrick after which something went wrong, in a sense that Sollecito with every probability also intervened and the two began to make advances which the girl refused.
"She was then threatened with a knife, the knife which Sollecito general carried with him and which was used to strike Meredith in the neck.
"The three realising what had happened quickly left the house, creating a mess with the intention of simulating a break in, spreading blood everywhere and in an attempt to clean up left drops of blood in the bath on the ground and in the sink.
To which is added THE NEW DETAILS that:"The fact that Meredith was a victim of violence is evident from the state in which her body was found, there were bruises, particularly as mentioned in Dr Lalli's report where there is evidence of bruising with dark areas on the lips, and also on the gums of the left cheek and chin..." which is obviously a very highlighted summary of part of Dr. Lalli's autopsy report. Dr. Lalli may or may not have drawn conclusions as to the cause; likely didn't, Judge cites none. This is first time that specifics of the violence Meredith suffered have been even partially presented. The question remains is this all of it, which would be congruent with Meredith being stricken about the face with a hand. I would suspect more parts to be translated & updated online.
Here's the url that contains the rumor about the old lady and the phone. They appear to be updating this article. I notice they've added more alleged information.
[It was Meredith's lost mobile that led police to her body after they got a complaint from an elderly woman that she had received a threatening call from the phone.
When officers arrived to investigate they found the mobile dumped in the pensioner's garden not far from where Meredith lived.
After tracing her address they arrived at the house she shared with other students just as her housemates had discovered the trail of blood to her door.]
This part I haven't seen before:
[ It emerged that they also found a SECOND phone near her body as they try to trace an Italian boy she had been seeing and a missing key to her bedroom door.]
http://tinyurl.com/3cx96r
I am surprised that they release so much information, TBH. Does anyone know what the rules on sub judice are in Italy?
To Damian, I believe, but perhaps it was Rob: way above one of you stated she slowly bled to death. I pointed out that the LE had used the phrase "throat cut" and that therefore the major artery had to have been involved & so death was quickish.
Well, it seems that the ILE allowed themselves to be "mis-translated" as it were. [How about that.] The prelim Judge states that indeed Meredith's death "was probably agonizingly slow."
According to the pathologist who examined Meredith's body it is believed that she died due to a "haemorrhage from a neck wound after the blow of a sharp and pointed weapon."
The report says: "Bruises and lesions found on the neck suggest that Meredith was held by the neck leaving brusing compatible with the pressure of fingers and subsequently threatened with a knife held to her throat sufficent to leave other small wounds beyond those which determined death."
The pathologist's report shows that because the knife did not hit the carotide artery, her death was probably agonisingly slow and that she was stabbed at some time between 9.30pm and 11.30pm.
Wherever you picked up that bit of info, whichever one of you it was, you were correct. Parsing out what parts of leaked information are wholly accurate is always an adventure in this blogging world.
Still, it means that those who were there looked on as an at least semi-conscious Meredith bled seepingly onto the pillow and the bed clothes -- and did nothing for as long as it took. Might not even have noticed at first as they continued their sexual assault. And Amanda places herself in the house at that time.
Right now, I leaning to A framing PL, with RS in only on the cover-up. For me, now, its Amanda and Mr. X with her too many tokes over the line fer shure her judgment & humanity totally fled. Mr. X then says "we've got to cover this up."
A's write-up for her lawyer better be a Ph.D. level production, that's also fer shure.
I don't really buy that Meredith had consensual sex with Patrick. Just a gut feeling. It would be difficult to prove either way, though -- look at how many living sexual assault victims can't prove lack of consent.
Also, I recall that somewhere above it was mentioned that there were no signs of (forcible) rape. Does that necessarily mean she wasn't raped (although apparently other sexual contact occurred) or does it mean there were no SIGNS (lacerations, etc.)???
I don't think there is a Mr. X involved in the crime. The accused would have ratted out anyone else by now to deflect the blame.
I am not convinced that PL was involved, but the fact that he changed his cell phone the day after Nov 2 does raise serious suspicions.
I feel relatively certain that AK and RS were there and were involved in the sexual assault and murder. I think they were both probably so drugged up that they were killing her.
I still have some doubts that PL was there, but parts of his story don't add up: he says the bar was open, but someone testified it was closed; he first said he didn't know MK, but then confesses he did know her; changing his cell phone the day after the murder.
There are numerous conflicting reports of the Italian Judge's prelim all over the internet (Italian, English, and American newspapers and online sources) but it makes one wish there really was a CSI-Roma or something. With all the physical evidence at this time they have no physical evidence in the death room for Lumumba? One bloddy foot print from under the duvet that is consistent with a shoe of RS. Knife has been reported as both bloody and not bloody? Fingerprint (sometimes fingerprints) of AK on Ms face. If I was an American defense attorney representing any of the suspects in an American court I wouldn't feel too bad about the state of my defense at this time. The wierd text message (Meredith will die today or tomorrow)is totally unsubstantiated (and was deleted by the recipient in Rome). They (IP) bought themselves a year to do the work but we Americans like our murder mysteries wrapped up in one hour without too many commercials. AKs minimum year in jail may help her memory some though. Also the computer forensics on RS computer will show some but I have done some of that kind of forensics (not for a murder case) and it is more complex and fraught with error than you might think.
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer had a short piece up again today with comments. Unlike the other day, these are much more civil and really very interesting if you have the time. Both locals, euros, Italians back & forth, some one who's delved into the English version of Italian interrogation procedure, and of course though people who know and Like this comment section, more will likely get added.
http://tinyurl.com/2ks9vv
I agree kat.
Would the police still be holding Patrick if there wasn't any evidence he'd been there? It seems unlikely, but not to be excluded.
Damian, not off track at all! Its very good for all "foreigners" to better understand the reality "on the ground". One Seattle PI poster explained the difference between the locals & the carabinieri -- and so I can understand RS calling his sister first & not just because she is his sister. So sorry to hear about your attack and the System's utter failure. To have a "Sunset Law" on doing a crime! Egads. At least here, you'd get a chance to file a civil suit for damages, if not criminal action. (And that's recently happened even in a Mass. murder investigation -- the family decided the DA was taking much too long, filed & won judgement, but that folded the DA's investigation. I'm waiting for this fellow's new girl friend to turn up dead, and the DA may be too.)
Looking at what Amanda Knox said again, every sentence she spoke, if true, has a red flags which together strongly hint at deception.
I write about it here for those of you who are interested:
http://tinyurl.com/2lnmh4
hey, randomguy, succinct post #64202 at
http://tinyurl.com/2am29c
if that's you.
also, in fairness, see post #64281 by someone who says he was there the night the YouTurbe video was made and who makes a strong defense of the kind of person he/she knew.
Which is the core of the story: how could two such people, A & Meredith, cross paths so disastrously?
and I think post #64723 nails some of the issues around the LE investigation, such as A's two confessions being as the Judge noted made at around 11:30 pm and then at about 5:40 am the next mronging, strongly suggesting she was kept up all night -- classic breakdown tech nique.
And then this commenter adds a point we've not considered here: these suspects were not afforded the presence of an attorney prior to questioning by police, nor was Amanda probably informed of her rights under international law to have a US Consular offical present during questioning (which, FYI, makes any statement she may have made to police non-admissable UNLESS a consular offical were present.)
Is this true? Having read it, something nags at me that it could be, but under Italian law or treaty with US is it??? Certainly, the Judge didn't treat it so, so commenter was wrong?
Very nice run of comments there.
I would like to shag Amanda...
Thanx Robert.
...another little pecularity in Italy is that if you committed a crime more than ten years ago, you can't be prosecuted. Berlusconi changed the laws to save the co-founder of his political party, who is mafioso...
More 'on the ground' stuff that i think may be relevant. Immigration here, is a relatively new phenomeon, and like most things in Italy, is pretty much uncontrolled. 95% of italians,(or certainly here in Perugia), when they see an Afican, for example, think that they are either a prostitute or a drug-dealer. Unfortunately, more often than not, they are right. There aren't any black doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians etc in Italy. After the killing in Rome 3 weeks ago, and the current climate of xenophobia and with the proposals for mass deportations, the national press and the right were delighted when a congolese man was arrested for this murder.
I don't know if any of this is directly relevant to this case, but it gives a little of the backdrop to what's going on. Again..if there's proof Patrick was in the house, its all over.
amanda writes all the time in prison and asked for a dictionary
raffaele looked confused today and asked when he could speak with his father, to have products to clean his cell and to have access to the library
patrick said to be missing his family, music and his bar; he said that he was treated well
Damian, In AKs testimony so far, she has placed the blame on PL, even saying he was in MKs room when she screamed. The police couldnt possibly let him go just inn case she is telling the truth. They might have strong doubts about teh truth, but until they can officially rule it out he will have to stay in custody. If innocent (and not even there) he will be able to demonstrate this with the DNA results, but I don;t expect these will be ready for some time. While there is a reasonable level of suspicion that this man is a dangerous, murdering sex attacker, he will have to stay behind bars.
I'm not quite sure which story (ones that even come out yet) to believe. I don't believe all three of them intended to murder her. At least one of them was just in it for a bit of an orgy, got shocked when one (or both) of the others got carried away, and is not saying anything/confusing the story because they are afraid of being implicated because they were there and involved in the actual sex act. Possibly even willingly raping her, drunkenly believing it to be just a rough sex fantasy (but with no intent to pull a knife and killl her).
I might be wrong, but (regardless of the text message) I can't see all three of them conspiring to kill her. Maybe a couple got carried away and they are in the sh*t and they know it. I think these two are deeply shocked by the other pulling the knife.
Does anyone know if the text was sent in italian or english? Was the recipient english or italian, and did the speak the language that the message came in? If someone sent me a message in italian saying "tonight or tomorrow meredith is dead", i hate to admit i wouldnt know what it said. Is there any possibility that anything is lost in translation here? No chance of anyone saying something like "tonight she's going to 'get it'", or anything like that?
If PLs DNA doesnt show up, then the lovebirds have decided to frame him...I wonder why?
I heard that A's lawyer claimed that her first interview with the police is inadmissable because she didn't have an interpreter. My girlfriend tells me this is never usually a problem here though...
Thanx Joanne...now I get it.
about the message...if its genuine(!!!!) its definitely been translated from Italian, but I don't know if it was sent in english by an italian, or translated literally for the english-speaking press
Even if it's inadmissible (which would obviously affect a trial), her partial confession will have provided them with a good starting point and an insight into who she is and how she feels about others.
For the police operation of building a case, this is much better than starting with her exercising her rights to silence.
What's the general mood in Perugia Damian? Everyone must be talking about this all the time, what are people who are connected to them saying?
It is clear there will be twists and turns in the evidence (more to come) some backtracking on IP assumptions etc. and it will generate lots of press but I am more interested in the psychological synergy between RS and AK. I have been trying to find out (to no avail) what "disturbance" AK was involved in at Seattle Prep which resulted in a $269 fine and a how it relates to her Facebook comment of her lack of embarassment and lack of social inhibitions.
I also read RS had a blog entry about seeking extreme sensation through sex...it is beginning to seem like a Starkweather-Fugate type of situation where the syngery between their pre-disposition to sociopathic behavior (fueled by drugs and alcohol and sex) resulted in this murder.
There is also this prep school arrogance and this fantastical element on both RSs and AKs part. Forgive me poor Harry Potter, but look at RS dress in photos prior to his arrest and AK reading Potter books (in three different languages!) That smacks of some sort of Leopold & Loeb crime but perhaps without the same degree of calculation.
Dear Eyes for Lies, I ead your post and this is what I posted over there:
re conclusion for no.1 "There is a contradiction." Uh, no, there is no contradiction, quoting your quote: "Patrick and Meredith were in Meredith's room while I stayed in the kitchen." Amanda specifically says Meredith is in her own room, not say in Amanda's room. She locates Meredith speficially in the statement. If you meant something else, you should correct your phraseology.
Now you might ask what were they all doing before this split-off, but as we don't have the FULL, carefully translated text, because this is an English statement translated into Italian and then translated back, we can't be sure of suggested times, locations and sequences.
All that you can be sure of is that Amanda does place herself in the house when Meredith is murdered.
The other point about the confessions is that as the Judge notes in her report, one was made at about 11:30 pm and the other at about 5:30 am of the same night. Whatever the validity based on physical evidence, these "confessions" were made to the Italian police who were using classic breakdown techniques, and so on that basis are more than a bit suspect. As is the way a person being subject to such an interrogation--ie being kept up all night by teams of interrogators--might respond. As your brain goes foggy you start to resort to phrases as if they are hand rails. So your conclusions as to her various qualified statements are subject to the conditions under which they were made.
NOW, if she had made this kind of statement in mid-afternoon after a full night's sleep, then your parsing of what you see as weasel phrases might have more validity.
Finally, that was a sneaky way to market your "abilities", wasn't it?
Can't believe Italian lawyer is not advising AK to not to write anything in prison. I know it can be seized here in an American prisons and assume they are just letting her scribble away and then they will sieze it.
I may be able to help to explain specific passages of the judges 'ordinanza'...if you want. even if translating is always a tricky business. If the other italian speakers are around, maybe we could do bits together?
Amanda has sold to The Sun a jail diary
Don't believe that for one second. This blog has been pleasantly free of trolls, snarky comments and outright deceptions, hope it can stay that way.
Joanne. People who know Patrick are convinced he isn't involved, but it must be the same for relatives of the other suspects. But here there are hundreds and hundreds of people who don't believe it, people from all walks of life....we'll see.
don't feed the trolls!
Robert M -- You pointed out that what I wrote for No. 1 (on my blog post about Amanda Knox) made no sense. I said that Knox didn't account for Meredith that night. Obviously that was a typographical oversight as Knox's statement is clear about that.
Knox did refer to Meredith in her statement in general terms, but not in the account of her story told by the press(if it is true). I have corrected that (for future readers). My apologies and thanks for pointing that out!
I went under the assumption that Knox's statement was made in English and never translated. If it has been translated back and forth, then it is USELESS and I make no opinion whatsoever. You make a good observation here. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, people tire under stressful interrogations. No doubt, but there is too much here to write off. Too many oddities in use of words. I still stand by that.
May I ask what you mean by your statement: "Finally, that was a sneaky way to market your "abilities", wasn't it? "
What are you referring to? If you are referring to the fact that in my earlier comment I wrote if you want to see my opinion, click this link -- than I don't see how that is sneaky. It is as up front as one can get. Sneaky is not a fair assessment.
Seattleite!!! Sorry but I beat you to that Harry Potter look a like thing with RS up near the top of these posts. I don't think its just a coincidence, especially when she rather quickly found out he was 24 and "edgy" underneath, as she might dream Dan Radcliffe is. Google Harry Potter fanfic to get a sense of the outre & sometimes well-written stuff that's posted.
As to the dorm incident, its partially explained by one of the early posters at the Seattle PI link above, as in "she got the fine because she was the one to go out and talk to the neighbor about the noise [implying the other partiers weren't going to step forward]." This person claims A wasn't drinking at all. For that poster, its a sign of Amanda's sense of responsibility. Having been a dorm head resident waaaaay back when you could be 18 to drink, sometimes you just had to fine/charge someone to get the point across. And the biggest tokers then were also the hardest drinkers and yet were the ones I could count on for dorm spirit stuff & follow through. Keep googling around. Another poster says the UK reporters are chasing every contact of hers they can for background & juicy bits.
Methinks you are pushing the Starweather-Fugate thing a little hard. That took sometime to develop, ripen as it were. IF RS was really there (I have my doubts), the whole thing is definitely fueled by drugs & drink but is very spur of the moment escalation, wrong but not psychopathological as we've been using the term here.
As in, I was wrong to be that drunk and not know it while I was driving a VW bug full of friends around New Haven after a wedding reception [the BEST champagne!!!]. But I was not exhibiting psychopathological behavior. That I compounded it by continuing to drive after I realized it, my excuse to myself being that everyone else in the car was more drunk than I was, does not move the initial act into psychopathology. (And yes I got to where we were going and then refused to move for more than several hours & ate & ate & ate.) Of course, if I'd hit anything and someone had died, it still would have been vehicular homicide which was treated then as involuntary manslaughter. A stupid stupid mistake then but not one caused by psychopathology.
Still, you are correct that there's a dynamic between the two, which makes PL the odd person out in this story.
By the way, did anyone see that photo of the bloody fingers on the wall of Meredith's bedroom that New of the World had up? See pinecone's last post above for the link. She was herself asking about the second cell phone. The picture captures the hard reality of what we are all talking about.
Eyes for Lies, thank you for follow-up. Given that forthrightness and your changes thereof, I will withdrew my last line above. I suspect I was expecting a much longer, word by word textual forensic effort. My apologies.
Amanda declared that she's thinking of a career as porn actress
Thanks Robert...You are on it. I will go back and read earliers. PL receipts from the bar do not provide ironclad alibi and I have this sense of RS and AK playing PL for what they want to do and PL playing them for what he wants to do but I also see a timeline where he could have left before the murder...DNA has not been reported as of this time to my knowledge.
re Capanne Prison where all three are being held--one journalist's experience there & his experience with Italian Justice overall is highlighted at:
http://tinyurl.com/2vvmgj
Robert M -- You pointed out that what I wrote for No. 1 (on my blog post about Amanda Knox) made no sense. I said that Knox didn't account for Meredith that night. Obviously that was a typographical oversight as Knox's statement is clear about that.
Knox did refer to Meredith in her statement in general terms, but not in the account of her story told by the press(if it is true). I have corrected that (for future readers). My apologies and thanks for pointing that out!
I went under the assumption that Knox's statement was made in English and never translated. If it has been translated back and forth, then it is USELESS and I make no opinion whatsoever. You make a good observation here. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, people tire under stressful interrogations. No doubt, but there is too much here to write off. Too many oddities in use of words. I still stand by that.
May I ask what you mean by your statement: "Finally, that was a sneaky way to market your "abilities", wasn't it? "
What are you referring to? If you are referring to the fact that in my earlier comment I wrote if you want to see my opinion, click this link -- than I don't see how that is sneaky. It is as up front as one can get. Sneaky is not a fair assessment.
Thank you, too, Robert M. for pointing out what you did. Cheers!
> On another note, I speak Italian, and I read in the Italian press that the
> bodily residue that was found on her body was not semen but it did imply
> sexual activity. Was it pubic hair or saliva then? I would guess pubic hair.
Or vaginal secretions from Foxy, perhaps?
When tests are back on ALL the phsyical evidence, the ILE will get the word out especially if its more damaging to A. That's just how they are operating on this case.
To Seattleite, as above I think the lawyer needs her side of the story. His proficiency in English is unknown. He needs a hard copy of her narrative to work from. Normally, I would assume he'd just take notes but it may make more sense for her to write something up & then go over it. Also, writing seems to be her default mode. Also, as she has no internet access, there are all those people she's been keeping up with online; now its got to be pencil & paper. Her immediate family also.
And wouldn't you just love to sit in on that Mother-Daughter meeting tomorrow (saturday)?
Hmmm ... the Torygraph has printed the number of the mobile in the old lady's garden:
+39 0348 467 3711
I wonder if anyone'll answer ... ?
Thanks Robert...that may be the reason for all the writing (as well as her writing inclination) but that seems dangerous for her defense. If the attorney requested it for his use, I know that would be protected Attorney-Client privilege here, but I am completely ignorant of Italian law in that area. Or any area for that matter.
Re: mother-daughter meet...actually I wouldn't want to be there. I think it is going to be noisy: (weeping, gnashing of teeth) and I doubt she is going to tell her mother much. Mom's sole mission is to get her out of jail and out of the baliwick. That ain't going to happen. I read one of your earliest scenario posts and it rings true. I would now say the whole tragic mess is more The Sheltering Sky than In Cold Blood.
I've just read the judge's ordinanza in italian. Sorry if some of this is already known; i'm trying to get it straight in my head, as much as anything else.
1. P is 44, not 38.
2. He said his bar was open, but it was shut.
3. The morning after the crime, he changed his IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) Apparently every mobile has one, and you can change it, thus making it more difficult to be traced. (It adds a 14digit prefix to your number, which remains the same.
4. A and P spoke on the phone the day after. (P using his new code)
5. Specific details have been 'censored'. (In total, 1 out of 18 pages, comprising of various extracts) These extracts refer to evidence found on Meredith's body. The judge says that these proove there was a violent sexual assault, agaisnt Meredith's will, involving all three of the accused.
6. The motive for A and R was to share somekind of extreme experience. P used the situation to get the girl he was after, the girl that up until then had turned his advances down
E FATTO
Gesu cristo!
Robert. Ghirga, one of A's lawyers doesn't speak english. I don't know about the other one.
...I forgot something important from 3 above...P denied changing his IMEI to the judge.
seattlite, thanks. Which one? the first or the the step by step one, which is the one that I think would lead you to consider Sheltering Sky. A person puts themselves in a particular situation and stuff may or may not happen. (Yes, I was drunk re my story above, but, no, I did not have an accident. There but for...)
At the moment, I would substitute Mr. X for PL; as damian says, there are people willing to back PL directly & his lawyer hasn't had a chance to get organized & as I also noted I'd be surprised if ANY prelim judge released those arrested under a murder charge. (We of course use "bail hearings" to control the same situation.) I'm more dicey on RS.
Its just that having 5 people in that smallish room all at once (Meredith, A, RS, PL & Mr X) is just one person too many -- especially as the ILE seems to be leaking that so far they've got something on a Mr. X but so far no physical evidence against PL!!!! Leaking against their own argument to the judge!!!!!!
And I'm even willing to consider just Amanda & Mr. X.
But Amanda is always there in any scenario.
Which is the wall against which the "responsible" "caring" "I've trusted my life to her" TRUE THINGS about her comes to a smash-up. Because Meredith's dead is another TRUE THING.
I haven't commented on this case up till now...it's a very confusing and intriguing case. I have had a nagging feeling all along, however, that Amanda herself killed Meredith, perhaps after sex play with the guys went awry. Jealousy?
It will be interesting to see how the facts pan out on this case.
damian, thanks. If there's more, take your time. Do note that on RS as trepviosuly translated in UK papers, his knife was called "compatible" or we'd say "similar" to the type of knife BLADE that could inflict such wounds & the fatal one too. But similar ain't the same as its the murder weapon.
As to PL denying he'd changed his IMEI to the judge, that seems so bleedin' obvious to prove, why deny it? Why not say it went on the blink or something? I dropped it & it wouldn't work. (I don't do cell phones so beyond what I've learnt here, their operations are a mystery to me.) But do you think PL is THAT stupid? Maybe not sharpest but stupid?
Also the judge quoted one guy on the bar being closed. What if there are 4 others who'll swear it was open? I did see the receipt TIMES was an issue but as they were sometimes given in english hours and then in 24 hours, I got a little confused. But then there's the other workers and the other patrons to be interviewed--by the defense. I'm sure that local ILE thinks it needn't do more grunt work. Just wait for the lab work to be completed.
I've an itch that they are in for a surprise on that. Especially if they have announced evidence for a Mr. X.
And Sollecito Sr is lying on behalf of his son?? Wonder what RS's sister is up to on his behalf behind the scenes?
I see no reference in the judges report to the purported tapped phone statement of "I can't stand it anymore." Will that even be admissable, I wonder?
And reall, what is the narrative she'll give her lawyer, having out herslef inthe house in two statements?
I get back to the Mother-Daughter thing in that the lawyers will have to keep her apprised if she can't sit in on their meetings with Amanda. So what ever narrative/story A presents, she knows her mother will be in on it immediately. How will that effect her presentation, I wonder? Perhaps Mother will have the fortitude to cut through the normal barriers now--too much is at stake & she's had several days to get herself organized.
Putting myself in her mother's shoes calls up feelings of being entrapped very easily.
Robert: The step by step post. Very close to the tone of the crime...particulars are coming and going with the evidence or alleged evidence but I love the comment "A is always there." That's for certain. I didn't have RS in the room (and the bloody sneaker footprint as described is not hugely compelling unless they can show shoewear matches) but I think he was there. I think she has been covering for him "I can't do this anymore" comment.
The Sheltering Sky comment had to do with forms of dissonance encountered in travel and specifically (as the characters in the book experience) the unraveling of their adopted personalities until they are reduced to harsh, elemental reality.
It's all over. There is proof that all three of them particpated in the rape and were in the room when she was stabbed. All three of them then tried to make it look like something else. Then they locked her in her room and left her to die.
It's getting late here and I feel the same anger I felt 3 nights ago, writing the very same words.
It's enough.
DP yeah, the emphasis by the ILE on violent sexual play or perhaps better sexualized violence, would suggest, along with the multiple minor cuts on the kneck Dr Lalli references, that
EACH of the participants took turns with the knife.
Damian, I thought there were no DNA evidence of Patrick being in the room?
Robert M: Both A and Meredith crossed path because they were both looking for a place to stay. It was nothing but a stroke of luck really.
You know, I do really wonder who got Amanda involved in taking hash. Her boyfriend (he was a user too)? Would any of this have happened if she wasn't so out of control through heavy dependency on alcohol and drugs. To me, clearly she was spiralling out of control and out of her depth.
Amanda Knox, a girl out of control:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2844000.ece
Interesting article Random Guy. The witness accounts of a girl capable of extreme jealousy and rage are very telling.
That article is interesting Random Guy ... yet full of prejudice. But I think it can give a hint of what happened in the girls (Amanda) mind when she travelled to Europe:
"something happened to her in those three months, according to people within the university community of the Umbrian hill town. At some point, apparently quite early on in her stay, she lost control."
Think of it and read her blog again, especially about the time prior to Italy when she was in Germany. Remember her comments who boring it was for her to work in the Bundestag (german government) ... a job usually interesting.
Europe wasn't the sensation she probably thaught it was. I can't say this for sure because Im european but there is something similar for us with the US.
Then the alcohol came and the drugs and maybe the wrong persons. Its pretty hard to get real friends in european countries especially in such a short time. Maybe she misinterpreted some people.
What do US americans actually think when they come to Europe? I really want to know.
I still believe RS is innocent. I think he knew nothing about the murder until Amanda rushed back to his apartment with her tale of blood in the hallway. He phoned his sister as soon as he realized there was a serious problem. I think he'd have called her earlier if he'd known about the crime.
I don't have faith in the Italian justice system. They're on par with Aruba. What kind of system allows judges to hypothesize as to motives and alleged evidence in an ongoing murder investigation? I think the violent orgy theory is merely a convenient way to place all the suspects in the room.
This case is being tried in the press. I hope the accused can afford decent lawyers because it looks like they won't get a fair hearing otherwise.
Deepen: I think it depends on age more than nationality although I would be glad to write a screed about the over educated, underweight, self-help book toting, fuzzy thinking, emo emoting, well-to-do people in the city I live in. I lived in Paris for over a year many years ago and didn't have any problems at all. But I was in my late twenties and in business and was surrounded by professional people most of time I was there.
Young Americans are in a bubble of their frame of reference and they take it with them wherever they go. They intuit that blue passport will get them out of trouble rather than make them a target. Wrong as they are. I have come to believe most people in their teens or thereabouts are basically clinically insane anyway. Just lack of real world experience.
You see it in the Spring Break incidents etc. They are have been raised in neighborhoods where the idea of crime is minor vandalism and being caught with bud. Put them in the "real world" which is most of the world and they are what they are: children.
I have seen the same thing with teens of other nationalities staying with friends' families over here. It's that here about the worst you can do is wreck the car and hopefully not kill someone in the process.
RS may be innocent of murder but not innocent of being impicated in this crime seeing that his knife has been identified as the murder weapon; the footprints on the blood in the room matching his Nike trainers and of course by his own admission, blatantly lying because Amanda supposely asked him to.
Some people have commented on how could he have been so stupid as to have the murder weapon on him. I don't think he had the time to dispose of it since the police caught him and Amanda off-guard by unexpectedly getting to the house. The judge's report claims that RS and Amanda never called the police until AFTER the police had arrived:
"In the first place, when it comes to these two, it has been shown that despite their affirmations to the Postal Police, it is not true that they had called 112 for the intervention of the Carabinieri military police, thinking that they had suffered a blow.
In fact, from our investigation it emerged that the Postal Police arrived at 12.35 while the call to 112 came at 12.51 and 12.54, circumstances that suggest a conduct that they wished it to be thought they had been surprised outside the building where the homicide was carried out."
Whoever killed Meredith didn't do much to get rid of the evidence - like the phones. Now the knife. This would make sense if the killer was highly intoxicated through alcohol and drugs (unable to think things through clearly and dispose of the evidence). RS and AK were definitely on drugs and possibly alcohol.
Thanks for your impression seattleite. I think you are very right.
Amanda actually had a good idea: she didn't come to Perugia on a one-day trip. She wanted to dive right into the so-called italian lifestyle. I remember reading she was impressed how much time there was for lunch, time she probably didn't have at home.
I can confirm - it is fascinating to feel like you are living it.
Its probably like seeing a rock star and thinking: thats what I want to be ... this is the way I want live ... maybe this was a feeling of her.
For those interested here is the birds eye view of the "horror house" from Live Maps:
http://maps.live.com/default.asp...25785&
encType=1
Neither can I see the basketball court "haunted by drug addicts", nor the "grim" park she had to go through.
I think D.P. hit the nail on the head. American girl has rather good looking boyfriend - wants to fulfill his fantasy - gets jealous & kills or is just there while boyfriend kills as part of fantasy. Like the newly married couple who killed her sister for his sexual fantasy. Boyfriend thinks rich dad will get him off.
Deepen: You are on to a line of inquiry that I think has been overlooked. This is a little theoretical but bear with me.
I read a piece (I will try to find it) from a former Erasmus student describing the social hierarchy of Perugia and how most of the people, the Italians, tones would want to get to know, will not have anything to do with the American students, or the bar/scene people.
Now, by any standard, there was something wrong with Amanda (the thrill seeking stuff) but add the rejection (I have sensed it on occassion when taveling abroad--Americans are always mystified by that) along with the drug and alcohol use she most have felt the ultimate outsider.
No mistake that she set up a "domestic" situation immediately and then went out and hung with the people that paid attention to her.
By the way, the story here makes the news but I wouldn't call it a "big" story. It doesn't lead.
http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/
...icle2834591.ece
Another British students recollections of a stay in Perugia.
Yeah seattleite, I remember reading some news reports focusing on that. Apparently in Perugia, because of its long tradition as an international student town, groups of certain people have been build, all with their own bars and clubs. So Americans stay with Americans etc. etc. I almost sure she got in contact, but I'm not sure if she really liked to be surrounded by fellow americans. Maybe she wanted to experience something new in terms of other peoples thoughts.
This would explain why she got herself an italian boyfriend. Its somehow strange though. From my visits in Italy I've got the impression that a): italian men are pretty aggressive when it comes to girlfriends, and b): that italian men usually don't take foreigners as their girlfriends.
Italy is very christian, especially in small towns.
From what I have seen on TV this couple looked somehow "lovely". It seemed they were in their own cosmos.
But having an italian boyfriend somehow contradicts the outsider theory. She probably would have been introduced to la familia, and therefore would have gotten new friends.
I guess that what I was thinking of the "own cosmos" thing--though their own cosmos looks similar to hell. I was angling for the theory that with this "cosmos" of RS and AK, in this environment (Perugia as it is for Americans who think of it somehow as an extended Disneyland with drugs) is a big part of the story of this crime. That this crime could not have happened without this combination. AK would not have ever done this or been in this involvment without RS, RS would not have instigated? been involved with this without AK and Meredith would not be dead.
Its annoying to hear from other forums that Amanda couldn't be involved b/c shes such a nice, loving girl. History shows that extreme violence is very possible in a group setting among individuals who might not have otherwise acted alone. In these cases, theres most likely a leader and the others follow along. I keep hearing about how A & P are such nice ppl but I've heard nothing of the personality of R. I would presume that R was the leader (as he had the alleged murder weapon and expressed an interest in extreme sex) and the others played along. Its very possible that P might have left before the murder but engaged in the sexual violence. Perhaps when he saw things were getting out of control, he decided to leave & head to the bar. Perhaps when the knife was held up to M's neck it accidentally poked her as she was fighting off her attackers. A & R, panicked & concluded that if they left her alive, she'd go to the police, so in their minds they had to kill her, thus the reason for the other 2 stab wounds.
Do you think Amanda has read The Secret History by Donna Tartt? I can't remember the plot exactly but I am sure that there are similarities?
Hmm... theres actually no evidence Lumumba had anything to do with it:
"Of 120 useful fingerprints and other samples, 40 belonged to flatmates or regular visitors to the house, while the remaining 80 came from “unknown individualsâ€, police said. None belonged to Lumumba."
"The same paper also reported initial results from police scientists showed no evidence that Lumumba was in Meredith’s room."
Zues: I took a quick glance at AKs my space "likes" page before they took it private and I sort of got the sense of a pretty mid-brow person. Tartt's book is old for someone her age and hardly a classic. People who like Henry Potter prob not into The Secret History or Less Than Zero, or American Psycho or the movie The River. I do not see any pre-meditation regarding murder in this crime anyway.
I find the text message received by the shop assistant in Rome to make things even more curious- could it just be a coincidence, or a sign the murder was premeditated?
I also read that police discovered mobile phone traffic between AK and RS was very high that night, which doesn't make sense if AK returned to his house to sleep. Why would they need to text each other if they were with each other throughout the night?
This is such a tragic thing to happen, and very difficult to separate the facts from the speculation.
Seattleitte,
I disagree.
A lot of these books have acquired a cult status and therefore become 'cool' to read.
At that age a lot of your genre choices in regard to reading material, movies, music etc is about standing out and appearing to be 'deep'.
I believe this is the impression Amanda was trying to make with her writing.
I know for a fact that here in Australia where I live it was pretty cool to have been able to say you had read "American Psycho' when I was 19/20 yrs old.
Probably more so now as the book has been banned here.
JMO
I just thought of it and am not sure if it has already been mentioned...
Where were the other flatmates?
I know there were at least 3 maybe four.
Was this premeditated? On a night when there would be no one else in the flat?
Makes the text message seem much more likely IMO.
Also, I read Meredith was to be flying home the next morning. Maybe they thought they could buy some time as she wouldn't be contacting anyone while she was travelling.
I know there were at least 3 maybe four
I meant three or four of them living in the house....
JMO: Not trying to be snarky but I must disagree right back at ya. Look at her myspace pages as immortalized in the Seattle Crime Blog. Tell me this person ever read or even knew about Donna Tartt. http://www.seattlecrimeblog.com/...x-suspect/
#more
Today there'll be a demonstration in Perugia. A month ago, a man was arrested for cultivating marijuana. He was held at Capanne prison (where A, R and P are now) for two days and on 14th October died in his cell from injuries received during a brutal police beating. Dark days indeed for Perugia
Last night here, every tv channel was talking about the Meredith case. Journalists tracked down 'Uzi', mentioned in the judge's report as a witness for P. He said the police have not spoken to him yet, that he knows P and that he saw him that night in his bar. However....he can't remember what time it was, maybe before dinner, maybe after....he says P was talking to an oldish man (the Prof) about congolese politics. He stayed for half an hour (ish) and left. He can't remember when. The first receipt on P's till that night was at 10:29pm...
It seems to me there were three assailants - Knox, Sollecito, and an unknown third person (probably a friend of Sollecito).
All three decided after the murder to incriminate Lumumba. Knox may even have started to incriminate him BEFORE the murder.
I would not be surprised to hear that the ominous text message received by the Italian shop assistant came from Lumumba's cell phone. But KNOX had sent it, not Lumumba. (Working at his bar, she could easily have gained access to his phone.) If this is what happened, then it looks particularly bad for Knox (Premeditation). The motive: After Lumumba spurned Knox and showed more interest in Meredith, Knox decided to seek revenge against them both - the death of Meredith + the incrimination of Lumumba.
Andy...I think it's plausible that Knox and Sollecito are trying to incriminate Lumumba...but why is Lumumba lying???
I think the text message is a red herring
Seattleite,
I have read her blog and I didn't mean that I specifically thought that she had read Donna Tartt or that her taste in fiction was an indicator of possible premeditation.
I meant that I didn't believe appearing to be 'mid brow' means your taste in literature may not be broad.
Being a Harry Potter fan does not mean you would not delve into the dark side of fiction.
I am a case in point as is our illustrious leader Mr Huff.
P.S it's Frangi
JMO = just my opinion
People here are talking about the fourth man again...fingerprints on pillow, man in laundrette the morning after with A.
Maybe I was wrong...
Also read somewhere that people witnessed a North African man washing clothes/sneakers at a nearby laundrette. He was seen with a girl who was a foreigner...has anyone read whether this girl was confirmed to be Knox?
Damian, I am also confused as to why Lumumba lied about the time he was in the shop and also about changing his cell phone. If he was completely innocent, why would he lie about this?
The police seem to be quite certain all three were somehow involved- but then again, hard to tell if thats the police, or just the media..
The lack of Lumumba DNA is very interesting. Is there anyway someone can be a location without leaving any DNA behind. Maybe Patrick didnt enter the house so his DNA wouldnt be there.
Is there a possiblity Meredith was sexually assaulted elsewhere ?
I have never believed Amanda version of events. As time has gone on it seems like she was young woman who had spiralled out of control.
There isnt much info on RS, its seems like his friends are keeping their mouths shut tight. Does anyone know if he is a loner?
Does anyone know if he spoke to his father on a mobile or a landline at 23:00? Does anyone know what RS sister job is within the police force?
RS doesnt seem incrediably bothered about lying to police. He seems to act like someone who thinks they will get off scot free
The translation is really making a difference here. I can see why Eyes for Lies thought Amanda's phrasing was incredibly unnatural - but I'm almost positive this is the result of two-way translation. I went to an international school in Italy where we all spoke a mixture of English and Italian, and I'm very used to the linguistic patterns created by semi-correct translation between the two. (The Italians here will know what I mean...it took me years after I moved away to stop using 'In fact' in the same way as 'Infatti'!)
That supposed text message, for example - 'For me, Meredith dies' etc - I'm willing to bet that it was in Italian and said 'Per me,' which translates better as 'As far as I'm concerned' than as 'For me'.
P.S. And IMO, this more or less rules out the possibility that AndyT suggested - that Amanda sent the text message from Lumumba's phone. Like I said, I'm pretty much positive that message (if it actually existed) was in colloquial Italian, and I don't get the sense she was that fluent.
Does anyone remember, years ago, there was a big hoo-ha when some newspaper or magazine reported that Gerard Depardieu had admitted taking part in a rape when he was a kid? It turned out that the original interview was in French, and the word he had used was 'assiste'' - which means 'witnessed'. Someone mistranslated it as 'participated'.
That's the level to which the language barrier can skew things.
I read reports confirming a sighting of A with another man in the laundrette the morning after the murder...I can't do any better than that I'm afraid hmmm.
Missy... Sollecito's friends at onaosi (an organisation which helps the orphans of doctors. R's mother is dead.) yesterday made public a letter they have written together. It was read aloud yesterday on italian tv, the friend had his back turned to the camera, his face was not visible. According to the letter, he's a lovely bloke etc.
A's mother visited her daughter this morning...she arrived and left in great secrecy. R' father also visited the prison this morning...he told journalists that his sons knife collection was a hobby.
There was no phone call between father and son that night. It was a lie.
His sister is a carabinieri officer.
R's father said that his son was 'serene'. That he has never been in Meredith's room, and that he had been seeing A for a few days. When asked about his son's knife collection, he said that everyone has a hobby; he, for example, collects guns 'and other things'.
A's mother was accompanied by another woman and avoided contact with the journalists.
...and another thing...R is also writing in his cell. His father says he's writing numerous letters, that he can't send, to his family and friends, telling them how serene he is feeling.
In AK's myspace blog she mentions a north african (algerian) who works at the bar and is always trying to dance with her. My guess is this is the man who was in Meredith's room that night. he also matches the description of the guy in the laundromat (a north african). Congolese people are very black, PL would not be mistaken for a north african, especially in italy! Find this guy, who supposedly worked with PL, and you've got the missing murderer. he probably threatened AK very effectively to implicate PL instead.
Wow you're taking a large leap in logic with that statement. Just b/c she knows another black man doesn't mean hes the murderer, geez the generalizations ppl come to is astounding. He matches the description just b/c hes black? *rolling eyes* And in her blog it didn't say that he was "trying to always" dance with her, it said that hes such a good dancer and he dances with her in spite of her not being as good as she is.
as i recall the laundrette story was about 'a woman' seen with a 'north african looking man'. no statement or suggestion that this woman was foreign or A
its really apparent how things get out of hand when disinformation is always typed up for all to read
With all the media speculation/? disinformation, how could a conviction be secured? Even if it went to trial, their defence lawyers could justifiably claim the impossibility of a fair trial, surely? Ditto, the McCanns?
Zeus...there is no jury.
Frangi:
There were 4 female housemates named in the official judge's report: Filomena Romanelli (probably the 'Molly' mentioned in Amanda's blog), who is named in the official judge's report, and in whose name was registered the sim card from the Italian mobile phone used by Meredith); Laura Mezzetti, Amanda Marie Knox and Meredith Kercher. The two Italian girls were working rather than studying, according to Amanda's blog. Amanda and Meredith were both students (not clear whether they were enrolled at the University of Perugia itself or at Perugia 'University for Foreigners'- the media reporting has been a bit sloppy on this).
Its been implied that the two Italian girls were away at the time of the murder- has anyone else seen anything clearer on whether this is true? The official report does say that Filomena arrived at 1pm and confirmed that nothing was missing from the apartment, as well as expressing concernt that both of the phones in Meredith's possession seemed to be off.
The house appears to have been split into two apartments with the four girls sharing the upper one and four young Italian men living downstairs-
Giacomo Silenzi, Marco Marzan, Stefano Bonassi and Riccardo Luciani. The report says that all four of these were away at the time. It appears that Meredith had started dating one of them (Silenzi) about three weeks earlier, and I'm sure I read somewhere that they had left the key to their apartment with Meredith (and wasn't blood found in the downstairs apartment too?).
There are extracts from the report in this telegraph article:
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
The FOURTH suspect has been caught on camera:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articl...how/
139821.html
Random guy...this fourth suspect, supposedly caught on camera, is Usi. P's forgerful witness I mentioned earlier. Too much of a coincidence?? We'll see if gets confirmed but it seems like a jouralist getting carried away...we'll see.
Damian, that's interesting. What did you read of Usi earlier? I must have missed it.
He's mentioned in the judges report. P. says Usi saw P in his bar that night. The police haven't spoken to him yet but journalists interviewed him.He says he did go to p's bar that night but he doesn't remember when. He seemed a little surprised that he had been mentioned by name.
Thanks for the link, RGIL.
So much for the veracity of Amanda Marie Knox, her statement that she held her fingers in her ears as Meredith Kercher screamed for her life.
So much for sensitivity towards others, eh? What used to be called the Golden Rule? Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
...I saw an interview with him...
Sounds like Patrick and Usi - both suspects - could be covering for each other. That is suspicious considering Usi was seen leaving Meredith's flat. I have just read this too. Looks like Usi could be lying.
"The man, a Congolese known only as 'Usi' appeared on Italian television last night and said he had spent the entire evening with Lumumba."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher110.xml
I hope the security camera footage is for real.
You're welcome, Emily.
Usi is the 'friend' who PL told police had come into his bar at around 8pm on the night in question and who formed part of his alibi- but its been reported that PL then had difficulty remembering a last name or any contact details for the guy. All that is reported by the media as being in the judge's official report too RGIL check out he telegraph article I linked a few posts above, lots of detailed info there. Very interesting indeed if 'Usi' is appearing now as the 'fourth suspect'! Could be extremely significant...or could be just what you say though damian, journalists do tend to get carried away at times, and more so at weekends...!
Random Guy...Usi said on Italian tv.'he had spent the entire evening with Lumumba' It's not your fault, but this is completely inaccurate. I saw the interview and he said what I have written before
erhw and damian: it will certainly be interesting to see what develops. I just hope none of it is misreporting.
For others reading this blog and haven't caught up, here's the summary of the new bit of news:
"A fourth man, thought to be a 'musician' from North Africa, was captured on security cameras walking hastily away from the 'house of horror' on the night the murder occurred.
The police believe he is the same man who was spotted in a nearby launderette the following day at 1.30pm, in the company of a young woman.
Witnesses said the man had acted 'strangely' and had bundled a large quantity of clothes and shoes into a washing machine."
He has been identified as "Usi".
Just noticed my above post may be confusing. To clarify, the man seen on the cameras has been identified as "Usi" but there hasn't yet been any confirmation he is the same person seen at the laundrette.
Wait, where do you read that this 'Uzi' man is the suspect? i've reread the article and it states that a fourth man was identified but it didn't say that it was Uzi. Uzi was mentioned later in the article as being the alibi for Patrick.
Gen, check post #34009 - you will see it in the link I posted.
...I agree Gen...I don't see mention of Usi being caught on security cameras. Certainly up until 24hrs ago, the police had not even interviewed Usi...strange if he's on film...Random Guy....why do you say Usi was caught on security cameras?
Damian, didn't you read that article I posted from the Earth Times (written by UPI) site in post #34009?
Here it is, directly from URI's site:
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top...ts_murder/7278/
Hi Frangi. It was late here when I read your post. Sorry. I don't think her myspace is definitive but you read the page (Imagined blog post: Hi Guys, just got done watching the Lion King for the tenth time and I am now going to settle down and re-read Brett Easton Ellis' paen to psychopathetic behavior.) As you can see from my posts I am interested in the various states of minds of the suspects and actors in this case, and I am just saying: AK may have translated sanskrit in her spare time for all I know, but "dark" or edgey books--there is not factural evidence of this from sources.
"young female students shouldn't be allowed to go abroad"
I am assuming this was intended as a joke? It might even work. Sort of sad to deny "young female students" their freedom of movement for their protection when they are sinned against more often than sinning, though. Maybe we should lock up all males, instead? (j/k)
Thanks Random Guy...got it.
...but it makes no sense. The police haven't spoken to Usi. Surely, if they had him on film, they would have at least questioned him?!?
But that said, you never know here...the forensics are going to get to work on the knife on Monday!!
seattleite: I agree with you in the sense that if AK had read The Secret History, I would have expected to see it mentioned. However.....
I am a bit confused that a person with a declared interest in creative writing would not have listed any books on her MySpace. Or any favourite authors. She lists enough films?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/
lo...995_knox10.html
This is the latest according to the Seattle PI. They've also put together a time line.
Strangely, in this article, Patrick is identified as one of the attackers...but last I heard they had no evidence he was ever in the room. Did I miss something while I was away?
The text message received in Rome two days before the murder went like this...'Per me domani o stasera Meredit (sic) muore' ...for me, tomorrow or tonight, Meredith dies. It was written in Italian and I presume, if this is accurate, that the police have found records of it...Meredith's name was spelt incorrectly...
I've always thought it was a red herring, and I still have my doubts, But how else could they know of the spelling mistake, if they hadn't found it?
Can anyone help out with how these things work?
Does anyone know anything more about the shop assitant who received it?
Damian, it isn't the police who have him on film but the Italian TV station according to the article. Sounds like he was being interviewed by TV reporters.
Yep, I hope the forensic team have a water tight case incriminating all those responsible - whoever they may be.
D.P. you're right, until now, there's no evidence P was in the room. (despite my late night confusion yesterday) However, from 6pm - 10-30pm, he has no witness's to coroborate his story...and he's been lying. But there's been no change on the proof front...
DP: I'm also finding that very confusing- there seem to be both reports that there is no evidence that PL was in the room, AND reports that the judge has accepted evidence that all three of the suspects currently in custody took part in the sexual assault and/or murder. Can anyone shed any more light on this? I know that one explanation is that the assault took place elsewhere, but I'm not convinced of that yet.
Ok, Thanks for clarifying, Damian. If the article is correct, ILE should be able to come up with some kind of physical evidence against Patrick if he was indeed in the room. Not to be crude, but a murderous rape is a messy crime and there should be traces of everyone involved in that room.
erhw...I'm not convinced the assault took place elsewhere, either. All reports indicate that the girl's apartment was very bloody, pointing towards the attack happening right there.
Just to clarify. Usi was interviewed yesterday on italian tv. (I saw it) He said he couldn't remember what time he had seen P in his bar that night. According to Usi, P was talking to another man about congolese politics. Usi stayed for half an hour and then left. When asked if it was before or after dinner, he said...'I'm not sure...this is the problem you see...I can't remember...but I think it was after...but I can't say what time.'
Random guy...so Usi being identified refers to this interview...not the security cameras near the scene of the crime?
Patrick is placed at the scene by Amanda. This may or may not be true. As for physical evidence the police will need to test for a DNA match and that is going to take several days. At best they could recognize pubic hair from someone of African descent, etc. It sounds like they found some spunk on the scene too. Not to mention all the shit in the toilet. Does DNA show up in feces?
Funny how Usi, Amanda and RS cannot remember much! Seems like they may all have agreed to come up with a story and have great trouble filling in the gaps.
Remember that RS (assuming he is telling the truth about this part) has already admitted Amanda told him to lie.
Kevin, yes DNA does show up in faeces. Check this:
http://www.forensic.gov.uk/foren....php?case=13&
y=
Patrick is placed at the scene by Amanda, but given her lying skills, I'm thinking ILE is going to want to place him there with physical evidence.
Kevin, I was thinking the same thing about hairs, fibers and such. Once the lab work is done, they may have more linkage.
RGIL was like:
> For others reading this blog and haven't caught up, here's the
> summary of the new bit of news:
>
> "A fourth man, thought to be a 'musician' from North Africa, was
> captured on security cameras walking hastily away from the 'house of
> horror' on the night the murder occurred.
>
> The police believe he is the same man who was spotted in a nearby
> launderette the following day at 1.30pm, in the company of a young woman.
>
> Witnesses said the man had acted 'strangely' and had bundled a large
> quantity of clothes and shoes into a washing machine."
>
> He has been identified as "Usi".
There appears to be a contradiction or some confusion here.
One news source, UPI, names the fourth suspect as Usi and states he is Congolese:
> A security camera near Kercher's flat identified the fourth suspect as
> a Congolese known only as "Usi" retreating from Kercher's flat shortly
> after the incident allegedly occurred.
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top...ts_murder/7278/
Meanwhile, the Torygraph asserts the fourth suspect is "North African":
> A fourth man, thought to be a "musician" from North Africa, was
> captured on security cameras walking hastily away from the "house of
> horror" on the night the murder occurred.
>
> The police believe he is the same man who was spotted in a nearby
> launderette the following day at 1.30pm, in the company of a young woman.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher110.xml
The Congolese are black Africans, North Africans are Moorish or levantine in appearance. The two types are quite distinct and one could not be mistaken for the other.
Thanks RGIL. Whoever had the nerve to take a massive dump after raping a dying girl is going to pay dearly.
Could it be this guy?
From the UPI
A security camera near Kercher's flat identified the fourth suspect as a Congolese known only as "Usi" retreating from Kercher's flat shortly after the incident allegedly occurred.
It kind of sucks for Patrick when the guy you were counting on for your alibi is caught on film fleeing the scene of the crime.
todger,
No one is ever going to confuse a Congolese for a North African. In fact North Africans look pretty much the same as Italians. Remember that Madeliene McCann sighting in Morocco. It turned out to be a local. That would have never happened in the Congo. But, since the UPI story is more detailed I would tend to believe it.
However if it ends up that there really was a North African involved and there is a mistake about "Uzi" then Amanda is seriously lying and perhaps Patrick could be innocent. We will have to wait and see.
DP was like:
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/ lo...995_knox10.html
>
> This is the latest according to the Seattle PI. They've also put together
> a time line.
>
> Strangely, in this article, Patrick is identified as one of the
> attackers...but last I heard they had no evidence he was ever in the
> room. Did I miss something while I was away?
There seems to be some creativity in this article. This is the first article I've seen that provides details of the sexual activity; it states the dead girl was raped and buggered by one or both of the male suspects.
However, if this should prove to be the case, perhaps the unflushed material in the lavatory belonged to Kercher, and was passed after the buggery.
The timeline puts the time of death at "around 10 pm". Other things I have read put the time of the wounding between 9.30 pm - 11.30 pm, and the time of death as between 00.00 and 02.00.
Perhaps the journalist responsible for this can be asked to clarify the details and the timeline. Here's his email address:
levipulkkinen@seattlepi.com.
Seattleite (and Jackie):
I won't speculate about AK having read Donna Tartt, or any other author she hasn't mentioned- although I don't think a liking for the Lion King rules it out. What we do know for sure tho is that AK is a Harry Potter fan. There is a possible link between HP and 'darker' areas of the arts (and not the one (or the 'arts'!) the fundamentalists are forever shouting about!!). I think Robert M's ideas about a possible fascination with Harry Potter feeding in to an interest in Daniel Radcliffe are worth considering, especially in light of Sollecito's appearance being somewhat reminiscent of Radcliffe/Harry as a couple of posters have mentioned. AK is the right age to have become a HP fan as a child (the first HP book was published in 1998 in the US, and featured an 11-year old Harry/Hermione/Ron etc.- around the same age as AK at the time) and to thus have 'grown up' with the characters in the subsequent books (as Rowling intended). I know a lot of older teenagers/20-somethings falling into this category who still passionately identify with those characters, and the actors who played them on screen. As you point out, we know that AK likes movies, so its highly probable that she has watched the HP movies as many times as she seems to read the books, and is safe to speculate also that she is probably a Daniel Radcliffe fan.
The link I'm thinking of is DR's recent (and very controversial) toe-dip into the 'edgy' 'adult' world- ref. his recent live theatre performances, including sex scenes and full-frontal nudity, in the play Equus (which incidentally, for those who don't know it, explores disturbing and violent expressions of sexuality). Many, many parents have been extremely upset by DR's moving into this type of work (and his eagerness to do more of the same type), especially before he has finished 'being' HP, as he is an influential hero/role model/celebrity crush for many an impressionable young person.
IF Radcliffe is some kind of 'ideal man' in AK's mind, his move into this kind of work would have drawn her attention to the 'dark side' (nod to Steve H ) and sparked a curiosity more than Donna Tartt/Brett Easton Ellis ever could. Of course nobody but AK is responsible for the part she played in this crime- DR or no DR, the girl would appear to have serious problems that pre-date 'Equus'. Just wanted to illustrate that the wholesome/dark divide in the arts is not as black-and-white as it may sometimes appear, even when it comes to kids literature, and nice kids often have an unholy and consuming fascination for whatever comes into their range and is then made 'taboo'. Combine that with some kind of abnormal disturbance, psychopathy or inability to connect appropriately with reality, and it can lead to problems.
Getting into strictly theoretical territory here, so apologies to anyone who is only interested in the reported facts at this stage. Robert M, if you're still there, what do you t
Kevin was like:
> No one is ever going to confuse a Congolese for a North African. In fact
> North Africans look pretty much the same as Italians.
I know. That's my point. However, the two sources I cited appear confused about the fourth man. Once describes him as Congloese (i.e. black) the other as North African (i. e. levantine).
Usi is from Senegal.
He's lived in Perugia for nine years and has a young child.
P said Usi came into his bar that night.
A journalist (not p's lawyer, not the police!) interviewed him and he can't remember at what time he saw P. As a consequence, I presume he won't be of much use to P's defence.
Usi is not the fourth man. The journalist who wrote that must be confused.
Usi's skin is much darker than P's.
The North Africans in Perugia, Tunisians and Morrocans are easily distinguisable from the Italians
damian,
you are correct about Usi being Senegalese. I do think he is the fourth man, however I believe his role was limited to clean up duites. Kind of like Harvey Kietel in Pulp Fiction.
As for the text message predicting the death of "Meredit", supposedly there was a TV show in Italy broadcast the next evening where a main character named Meredith was dying or something.
I hope the suspects' attorneys are documenting media reports so they can collect damages from the offending newspapers when their clients are vindicated.
I have never read any Harry Potter... but, I have read The Secret History by Donna Tartt. What strikes me is:
1) the apparent premeditation involved
2) the plausibility, beauty and charisma of Amanda Knox (did she identify with Camilla in The Secret History?), her love of excitement, combined with narcissism/arrogance - she seemed to want to be in some sort of cult, and her boyfriend fitted the need perfectly
3) the feeling that even if she was involved that you don't want her to be in an Italian prison for the next forty years - the case (like the book) seems to be testing the bounds of morality
4) the sadness of so many young lives facing ruin as a result of living out a fantasy which went too far
The parallels are striking to me, though I find it difficult to put into words - anyone else?
Various sources are reporting that the body of the murdered girl is being flown back to the UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
uklate...7067443,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/70.../uk/
7088667.stm
http://www.orange.co.uk/news/top...ories/
27943.htm
It's been widely reported that Knox "can't remember" whether Kercher was at the house before or after she arrived.
The Sunday Mirror states that Knox and her two males accomplices met Kercher on her way home from watching a film at Purton's house, suggesting that the trio deliberately intercepted Kercher with malice aforethought.
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/ne...89520-20088825/
Todger...the Mirror is wrong. The judge didn't say they met Meredith on her way home.
Zeus... I've never read Harry potter, nor The Secret history, however...'the feeling that even if she was involved..you don't want her to be in an Italian prison for the next forty years.' isn't a feeling which is shared here, and I would presume, also outside Perugia.
Also, 'the sadness of so many young lives facing ruin as a result of living out a fantasy..' is not the sadness felt here.
There is enormous shock and anger at the horrific crime, there is a strong desire to punish the guilty and there is one victim...her name was Meredith.
Damian: Your posts from Perugia are invaluable. I have also read the Perugia Blog which gives a feeling for how people there are responding to events. Info in the Seattle papers is days behind when the information appears here.
Seattleite wrote :
(Imagined blog post: Hi Guys, just got done watching the Lion King for the tenth time and I am now going to settle down and re-read Brett Easton Ellis' paen to psychopathetic behavior.)
LOL......thats sounds more like something I would have written 15 yrs ago! Scary huh?!
damian
You quote me out of context - you thereby misquote me - I am just trying to make sense of it all, as are we all, in our different ways.
You say that there is "a strong desire to punish the guilty" - well, we don't know who is guilty yet, do we? And, since you seem to have all the answers, tell me how anyone can have a "fair trial" after all this speculation? - that surely diminishes the chances of the guilty being punished, doesn't it?
Plans to bring Merediths body back to the UK have been stopped by P. defense lawyers:
"Defence lawyers representing Congolese-born suspect Patrick Lumumba made a last-minute demand to have the 21-year-old's body re-examined after querying the time of her death. The body of the Leeds University student was already on its way to Rome airport when the request was made and last night it was in an airport mortuary awaiting a judicial decision."
Edda Mellas statement after meeting her daughter is interesting too: "I saw my daughter for an hour and I feel happier for having seen her. Amanda told me she was very upset by the death of her friend but she was confident that she would be released soon."
Seems like she's positive about a release. I wonder about what they have talked. Is Amanda lying to her mother about the events of murder, just like she did to the police?
The relationship to her mother is described as difficult. Apparently she had to compete with her mother for men:
"Of course, Amanda heard the cruel gossip, that her mother had married a 'toy boy'. It intensified the feelings of rejection that had burdened her ever since she learned her mother had been pregnant with her when she embarked on her disastrous first marriage, which lasted less than four years.
And, looking back, it may well have been the turning point ..."
I find that rather interesting. seattleite also talked about the rejection this girl must have felt when coming to Perugia.
erhw wrote :
I think Robert M's ideas about a possible fascination with Harry Potter feeding in to an interest in Daniel Radcliffe are worth considering,
I don't think that AK's reading material was any indicator of her possible propensity for violence.
I find her whole tone, in her writings, self absorbed and somewhat fake as if she is trying to portray a maturity and depth that eludes her.
The whole idea that literacy choices can define people in regards to their potential actions ( and I know that in hindsight at times this has been shown to be an indicator) I find is a weak one.
Take a stroll through my book shelf and you would be out the door in a flash!!
I'm sure that my net surfing habits have at times sent alarm bells ringing.
I just don't read into it very much and as I said earlier, I believe peoples reading choices at times to be very 'fashionable' for want of a better word. People love to jump on the bandwagon in my opinion.
Here is the link to the above quotes:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1770
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1770
from the telegraph:
"The police now think they can identify him (4th suspect)from the footage from three car park security cameras which overlook the house where Miss Kercher was killed"
I wonder why there is no mention of Amanda, the boyfriend and the barowner showing up in the footage from these 3 cameras 'overlooking the house'?
Seems like a no brainer, but maybe there is no footage at all of anything.....
I disagree Rob. Why would the police feel the need to give out every little detail? Telling the public the three suspects are also on the video isn't going to help them. It doesn't mean they are not on the footage. However they mentioned the 4th suspect because they were/are looking for him.
"The chilling text can be easily explained: it is referred to Meredith Gray of "Gray's Anatomy". In fact, last Thursday Nov. 1st, there was an episode on Italian TV where the character of Meredith was about to day."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...e#StartComments
Any thoughts?
The comment I posted above has a typo. It must read: "... the character of Meredith was about to die.".
Maybe one of the local posters can verify this.
Zeus, If I misunderstood your post, I apologise. I agree that we don't know who is guilty yet and that I don't have all the answers.
I'll be the last person on this blog to defend the Italian Justice System. (see above) The police have launched an inquiry into the leaking of information to journalists, which is also par for the course here. One possible reason for this perrenial slackness is the fact that there aren't any jurors to be influenced. I don't know much about these things, so maybe some of you can help explain.
frangi...I completely agree.
deepen...good work.
seattleite...thanx...about 5 hours ago(8pm here), the police cordonned off P's bar as the investigation continues.
Dieter...November 1, on Italia 1, there was an episode of Gray's Anatomy. If someone else can confirm that Meredith is a protaganist, then I think the message really is a red herring.
Deepen: I have been wondering when a Knox family sitauation would surface to explain some of this stuff. I was also wondering why her uncle Uve from her blogs was only 25 years old. Thanks for posting this.
There are some similarities between the plot of "Gray's Anatomy" and this case. The protagonist lives in SEATTLE and she is a SURGEON (remember Knox's boyfriend photos?).
But it is only a coincidence, right?
Seattleite : That was actually her cousin, not her uncle.
Her sister (the crazy woman eith twins) comments and corrects her mistake.
There is actually some bantering between the two of them as to the fact that Amanda can't work out how the family tree and relationships are 'set up'.
This is all on her Myspace.
Random, it would be a perfect "case closed" (as they posted on the police headquarters door following the 3 arrests) to say we have footage of these suspects entering and leaving the vicinity of the house at blah blah times.
The cops would have put it to the judge to place P there seeing there is no DNA and there are no prints shoe or otherwise to put him at the scene. Just the allegations of an acknowledged liar.
It would be entirely consistent to put this info out there - if they have bothered to go look for footage anyway
That in itself I find a sign of immaturity and did so when reading it.
Frangi: Thanks for the correct. I wasn't looking forward to going back and reading the blog. There is in the Seattle press the continuing mantra of "what a nice, intelligent girl this was" as if they were cheering for someone at a pep rally. I was certain there would appear some traumatic event or problem which may to some degree cast some light on who this young woman is.
An interesting article if anyone hasn't been keeping up with the news over the days:
http://news.independent.co.uk/
eu...icle3149956.ece
As deepen told us earlier, P's lawyer has asked the judge to prevent Meredith's body from being sent back to England. He claims the original autopsy had the time of death as late as midnight, while the revised time is between 9-11pm, with the stabbing 30minutes before her death.
The Swiss prof, according to P's lawyer, was with P from 8-30. He is believed to have returned to Zurich and the police are trying to find him.
Seattleite wrote :
I was certain there would appear some traumatic event or problem which may to some degree cast some light on who this young woman is.
I actually don't really think there will be anything.
The whole idea that your life is defined by events in your childhood REALLY gives me the shits!!
There comes a time in your life when you know right from wrong. No excuses.
All I get from Amanda is immaturity. She was flying through life in a whirlwind and having a blast not considering the consequences.
My previous post is from www.theguardian.co.uk while thetimes.co.uk has 8-30 - 10-30 as time of murder.
When you read about her time in Hamburg working in the Bundestag she talks about how he uncle got her the job after a lot of favours apparently and she up and quits on the First day because she had nothing to do!
Oh! and she had a little bit of the flu.....
After she wrote emails and blogged about it.
She then states that it was so fun not working and meeting people and drinking near her 'borrowed' apartment before heading of to Italy.
Sounds like a spoilt, ungrateful brat who always has someone to pick up the pieces.
then, deanna and i went to grab a sandwich at the same cafe and i bumped into the most beautiful black man i have ever seen. he said he'd see me when i come back from germany.
Just reading back through her blogs and realised I had missed this.
Patrick.....
I think she didn't get to this point, frangi, where she would be able to comment on her own life. I think she was too involved in the family life back in the US. Thats probably why she wanted to get away. Maybe it was the first "big" journey for her and the first time to be physically seperated from her family for such a long time ... free to decide, free to re-think certain aspects of her life.
Then add the pot, the alcohol, her character, the whirlwind life and maybe those traumatic events ... would everyone be able to decide between right and wrong.
I think it can be a hint!
Random Guy: That article on Independent is very disappointing. Its tabloid style is very un-Independent.
Makes one wonder the barbarity we are dealing with here.
By the way, in her blog she mentions someone or something called "tore". Is this another uncle?
Deepen:
Uve is her uncle, and he is the one who got the flat and job for her.
Tore is her cousin that she thought was her cousin and is the one who 'hit on her'.
I know she is only twenty, and believe me my niece is 30, married with a child and mortgage and is as immature as Amanda is.
It's just the lack of personal responsibility and way of excusing her bad choices and behaviour that gives me the willies.
I would never compare to myself at that age as our lives are COMPLETELY different but it always seems it 'never her fault'.
Tore is her cousin that she thought was her cousin and is the one who 'hit on her'.
Thought was her uncle...sorry
Random,
from the independent article you linked:
"But now it appears that it only confirmed facts of which they were already confident: mobile phone records established where all three of the accused were at 8.30 on the night of 1 November, when they switched their phones off; they established that they switched them on again early the next morning; and that Knox and Sollecito had set off in one direction and Lumumba in another."
Nov 10th's UK daily mail prints:
"it is known that in the hours after the killing there was heavy text and call traffic between Amanda Marie Knox and boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito.
Police say phone calls made by the pair expose their alibi as a lie.
Despite the couple's claims to have been elsewhere at the time of the killing, police say they used their phones in the vicinity of the murder scene around the time Miss Kercher died."
It seems to me that both these dailies have opposing information about something as simple as phone records - one stating they were switched off the other citing heavy text and call traffic.
Go figure, everybody's just grasping at straws right now....i hope the cops don't fuck up the basic simple stuff.
Thanks for explaining frangi.
Suppose she took part in the murder and I - from my distant view - had to decide whether she's responsible or not responsible for her actions, because of traumatic events in her childhood ... I would rule responsible.
But I still think its possible that some events regarding her early childhood had traumatic potential.
will someone please make a mirror of this before google's cache catches up?
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...lient=firefox-
a
it's Edda's husband's myspace page, before he cancelled his account.
AK's stepfather, that is.
the "toy boy"
btw - is there a link for that quote?
cheers everyone.
But I still think its possible that some events regarding her early childhood had traumatic potential.
Who's haven't.......LOL
I just find her blog's a sign of someone who doesn't appear to take responsibility for her behaviour.
I am probably reading way too much into her ramblings but I even found her statement to the police that she put her fingers in her ears to block out Meredith's screams, more about her and her 'experience' and discomfort, not about Meredith and what she was going through.
Narcissism at it's best.
I wish the UK tabloids would stop calling her "Foxy Knoxy." For some reason, I find that really annoying.
http://tinyurl.com/2trvq6
"toy-Boy" quote.
Carrynation: Is this for real? If so, I hate to give frangi the shits but there is enough pathology floating around here for anyone's taste. This ain't eccentric: this is bizarre.
yes, it's real. I was one of those people who looked at AK's myspace page immediately after her name was connected to the murder, before she'd made it private. her stepfather was linked to off of her page - in her "Top 8." I'd looked at his profile then.
if you look at the mirror of her site, you'll see that his profile is stil in her Top 8, but if you click through, you'll see that he cancelled his account.
with some search skills and knowledge about how google caching works, I found the cache of his page.
(I work as a software developer in the field of search, so... I'm pretty geeky with this stuff)
another profile linked off of AK's mirrored page is "Knoxville," who is AK's little sister Deanna.
I haven't found much on her yet, except for this:
http://shinobi-skillz.livejourna...com/
165073.html
Deanna is mentioned 3 times her, marginally, but I still find it interesting: she's "annoying as hellllll" apparently.
fun family.
if you check the userinfo for the author of the above livejournal site, you'll see that he/she is in Washington state, and the mention of a prom just earlier this year ensures that he/she is about the same age as Deanna.
oh, the Internet..
Carrynation: I will keep you mind if I ever need an internet forensics expert. I was aware of the cacheing softwares out there but...many thnaks for the "illumination". I am calling my parents right now and thank them for not referring to me as shithead during my formative years.
seattleite: I'm calling mine too. cheers.
Steve Huff:
I have read but a few of the comments here to your blog so my comment might be redundant.
However, in your blog you seemed confused by Knox's statements that she said she "met" Diya on the 01 Nov.; then again that she met Diya on the 05 Nov.; yet on her own blog she said she was working for him at his bar from something like 10 Oct or so.
This is not confusing at all. She is never quoted as saying she "first met", she is saying like I "met with" or "I met up", or I "we met" to talk.
I find her statements all very consistent in this regards.
Thanks again, RGIL! I don't know who the writer was (at the independent.co.uk) but that was a very nicely written story. Very plausible. There were alot of drugs and drinking (that was a nice touch about the marijuana plants and empty syringes in the garden) among a transient population.
The press is focused on AK and PL but there's something strange, I think, about RS. He comes across a little too cool.
One reason why only Usi is the only one caught on camera is that perhaps he was the only one who arrived in a car. If you look at the aerial photos, the parking lot is across the street and is several meters higher in elevation than the house. People travelling on foot to the house probably wouldn’t cross the parking lot. I think it is unlikely that the CCTV covered the entrance to the house itself, this would be illegal (although obviously not everyone follows the law) due to privacy issues. Also I think the police would have played up any evidence of the main suspects coming and going from the house if they had such evidence.
The hypothesis of Usi arriving by car tends to support his role as the clean-up guy. From the evidence of the till receipts it seems likely that Lumumba left first probably at 22:15. I would guess that Sollecito left afterwards, leaving the mess for Knox to clean up. This is supported by the reports of lots of telephone communication between the two (Knox and Sollecito). She would have then called Usi and offered him sex to help her out of a jam. She must have figured that when it comes to the violent rape and murder you can never have enough men of African descent involved. Besides cleaning up the bloody clothing, it is probably at this point that they messed the house up to make it look like a burglary.
Some questions arise. How did Sollecito get home if one assumes he left his bloody clothes at the crime scene? In fact it seems a little weird that he would have his shoes on while raping a dying woman but they were all stoned out so it is no use speculating.. And who left the massive dump in the toilet unflushed? It seems to be left there intentionally since presumably Knox and Sollecito had several opportunities to flush it before the police came. That leads me to believe that it belongs to one of the Africans since the wealthy white rich kids would have instinctually realized the benefit of implicating the black guys and therefore not flushed away such evidence. .
Interesting article
This supports Damian's opinion that the fourth man was not Usi and was indeed a North African.
Traces of Meredith's blood was found on Sollecito's underwear after police searched his home.
The suspects used a mop and bucket to clean up the murder scene which Knox, an American, hid at her Sollecito's house after the killing
Also Mrs.Lumumba is standing by her man:
Last night the wife of murder suspect Patrick Diya Lumumba said she believed her husband was being "set up" by Amanda Knox.
Polish Alessandra Beata Cania, known as Ola, last night insisted her husband was innocent and said: "I'm 100 per cent behind him. I'm standing by him because I'm completely sure he didn't do this. The girl has tried to set him up."
Ola said she thought her husband would be free by now. But she said: "I have faith in the judicial process because I know the truth will come out."
Raffaele's father Francesco Sollecito said his son was innocent and also hinted he may have been led astray by Knox. He said: "I think it's fair to say he is re-evaluating the feelings he may have once felt for this girl."
The whole basis for keeping the three suspects in prison is the obvious discrepancies in their statements. Amanda Knox's is the most damning. She has made a partial 'confession' implicating the most obvious suspect, Lumumba, (older man, non Italian), though Lumumba insists he has a cast iron alibi, and wasn't there. Sollecito originally said he and Amanda weren't even in the 'House of Horrors'. Amanda Knox and her boyfriend couldn't even lie properly, an obvious sign of immaturity. The Italian police can't be faulted on this case, given the testimonies presented to them, they have no choice.
Kevin, if you believe the independent article A and R had their phones off then turned on early in the morning and locator pings show them moving through mast cells together. the daily mail said they had alot of traffic between their phones.
Until the phone records are out and verified we really can't conjecture validly.
CCTV in the UK is not illegal, it can and does cover anything. The only laws are a citizen's rights to privacy in how the data collected is used and shared. The burden is on the citizen to show misuse and sharing of the data. This is difficult to ascertain without direct proof and then only a complaint under the Data Protection Act can be made by the citizen. There is no bite to this legislation for the individual.
Since 1998 in London I have lived in 3 different addresses and been aware of having the front door and streets covered by CCTV including cameras operated on behalf of the city. It has been demonstrated how you can be followed by camera through your day with around 300 differently located cameras supplying the trail.
Thanks to Carrynation for linking to that cache of the stepfather's MySpace.
An odd aspect of this case was the failure of whoever knifed Meredith to call for an amubulance. It took at least 30 mins, possibly longer, for the victim to die. Medics could have saved her.
There are several explanations for the assailants' inaction:
a. they intended to murder; b. were too drunk/stoned to realise what had happened; c. too shocked to act; d. tried themselves to save the victim, and then it was too late.
All of this makes it even less likely that Lumumba was the (sole) murderer, because he obviously wasn't particularly stoned (he was back serving drinks in his bar by 10.30 at the latest) and, after his departure, Sollecito or Knox could still have called for an ambulance.
rob,
I have also lived in London and know about how invasive CCTV is there. But we are talking about Italy here. I currently live in France and I know for a fact that the CCTV laws require a property owner to only cover their side of the property line. Of course this is not enforceable but it is still the law. I suspect that the laws in Italy are more similar to those in France than those in the UK. On the other hand though it certainly is possible that the police do have the other suspects on tape. The police have no interest in divulging all their evidence. It is much better to turn all the suspects against each other and to get them to both blame the others and to stick to their ridiculous alibis and lies, all of which can be used against them later.
AndyT,
If the suspects had called the police and Meredith survived then she would have been able to testify at their subsequent rape and attempted murder trial.
But while I agree that in reality the Lumumba as lone killer theory makes no sense, now that blood has been found on Sollecito’s underwear, his only move is to say that they (he and Knox) were indeed in the house but that they barged in when they heard Meredith’s screams after being morally stabbed by Lumumba and that he then threatened to kill them if they told anyone. They were so stoned they panicked and didn’t call the police. If Lumumba continues with his total denials (which he needs to do to keep his wife on his side) he risks taking most of the rap. Remember Sollecito and Knox will have high profile attorneys.
In reality though it makes more sense that Lumumba was lured there under the pretense of easy sex with a girl he fancied and it is even likely that he got the hell out of their when things started getting rough. He had a wife, son and business to consider.
This is of course supposition and I make my conclusions on the reports I've read in the press - Guardian UK. I think that Sollecito along with his girlfriend Knox are the most likely suspects at this stage. Sollecito had blood stains on his underpants and a shoe print left behind is a similar match to one he owns. Also the text messages and knife are suspicious. Intriguing is the text message sent wrongly to a Mauro Palmieri, a Rome shop assistant with no connections to the threesome or Ms Kercher and who has only been to Perugia once on a school trip, which reads 'As far as I am concernced tomorrow or this evening Meredith dies.' Bizzarely he deleted the text and thought nothing of it until he read that a certain Meredith Kercher had been killed.
Re length of time to die. The third knife wound is reported to have gone in deep. If it hit an artery then it would take 90 seconds for Ms Kercher to have lost 3 litres of blood, which is then considered the point of no return. I saw this particular wound being demonstrated on a programme 'Autopsy' on UK Channel 4. A deep vein/arterial wound splatters uncontrollably, especially if it's in the neck, sending blood all over the place - this matches the crime scene reportedly foundl.
The sunday times leads with the premeditated theory, based on the text message, about Meredith dying, sent two days before her death. Italian news is also still talking about it. We discovered last night that this message refered to 'Gray's Anatomy', which was shown on italian tv nov 1, in which a character called Meredith went into a coma. This morning I spoke to sky and nbc journalists, and they didn't know anything about it. I also told the Carabinieri officer outside the house...he smiled benignly.
The house is not covered by the cameras.
The supposed 4th man is the same man all the local press said disappeared after the crime. The morning of the 3 arrests, his photo was in every paper here.
There is no proof P was in the house yet, but, from his mobile phone, the police believe he was in the area of the crime at the time.
The Swiss Prof has been found and the police will talk to him in Zurich. He's not who I thought he was since he was staying in a hotel, and therefore doesn't live here.
A has changed her story again...she wasn't there.
I love all these updates. Keep them coming. I'm thinking its more likely that P left when M rejected him or when things started getting out of control. If he indeed had raped her, there would surely be at least one piece of DNA evidence.
Damian, where did you find out that A said she wasn't there again? This doesn't look good for her if she continues to lie. Her bloody fingerprint was already found on Merediths head.
I have read through all the posts and find this a fascinating but not unusual case given the involvement of these rather young persons RS & AK.
The case is all but solved, only the prosecution to follow. Yes there must have been a fourth, but possibly one only called to try and help clean up the mess, though they could have been there from the start.
The file to retain the body of MK for further autopsy is only a desperate attempt by PL's attorney to hopefully confuse the court as to the time line of the accidental murder/homocide.
However, the coroner's report clearly stated that the food (dinner) in her stomach provided the close approximate time of death after MK's friend stated when they had eaten together, not stated in the judge's summary, but obviously a fixed time before 21:00 hours when MK left for home. This put the death time between 21:30 and 22:30 hours, given then when pre-digestion ceased to occur in the victims stomach. This gave plenty of time for PL to get back to his bar by 22:29 to ring up his first register receipt. He might not even have hung around once her blood starting flowing. (Furthermore if he had the skills to alter his cell phone IMEI and IMSI codes then he obviously had the skill to alter his cash register's time stamp.)
I really think erhw and Robert M's posts have been right on the money here along with a few others. Quite astute and critical thinking by those and others.
I stated "accident" because in no way could this have been a premeditated homocide. It was much too sloppy and had all the earmarks of all those involved, including the Mr. Usi or X, of panicked behavior. There is absolutely no way when the DNA analysis is completed that every one at the scene is not typed. If that should somehow exclude PL and include a Mr. X instead it will still be quite open and shut as long as they can find a Mr. X as necessary to compare the DNA evidence.
It most likely was premeditated sexual assignation on a unsuspecting victim, most likely even premeditated rape. So often sexual advances rejected leads to rape, especially if multiple attackers and/or alcohol and drugs are involved. Exactly why and for what reason, will come out in either a full confession or in a trial when all the evidence is finally considered and placed into relevancy, given that the accused continue to refuse to confess completely, now that they have legal representation.
However my guess is that AK and/or RS or both will confess if offered a plea agreement for lesser charges, i.e., 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, etc. However, I am not all familiar with Italian Law and how prosecution for homicide is conducted.
Last but not least this case as many case do, begs for both a psychological and physiological (drugs, alcohol, genetic predisposition) analysis of these three (so far) protagonists.
It appears to me that all the posters here are giving sincere thought and critical thinking to what led both AK, RS an
It appears to me that all the posters here are giving sincere thought and critical thinking to what led both AK, RS and PL into this scheme with MK, not thinking there would be consequences for their actions, notwithstanding that it would turn out also to be overwhelmingly tragic.
Also to Damian.
Thanks for the great posts and the timely information updates.
Gen, thats a statement by her mother after visiting her daughter in jail:
"Mrs Mellas, a schoolteacher, said after seeing her daughter at the prison outside Perugia that "she told me she was not even there, where that poor girl Meredith was killed." She said Ms Knox had reverted to her first version of events, maintaining that she spent the entire night of the murder at the flat of Raffaele Sollecito, her Italian boyfriend, who is the third suspect in the case. Ms Knox has now changed her story at least three times."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2851266.ece
She also said that P had nothing to do with it:
"Mrs Mellas however said her daughter told her that "in accusing Patrick I did something really stupid. I told the truth in my first interrogation. That night Raffaele and I did not move from his flat"."
Thanks Deepen. Amanda is surely just getting herself in deeper water.
Here is a nice graphic showing a map of Perugia, a timetable and a plan of the top floor of the "horror house".
Seems like Merediths room was at the end of the hall with the window showing north. If you compare the pictures from her myspace, AKs room must have been in the middle of the hallway right next to Merediths, with the window showing west.
If you look at the birds eye view of the house you can see that one would need a ladder to get to Merediths window.
The whole story about the burglary they set up is obviously, obviously false. Why were they so stupid to do that and broke the window?
Police must have figured this out within minutes.
They should have let Merediths door open and instead break the window in the entrance hallway.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...rcher111big.gif
The Swiss Professor has returned to Perugia.
There is no 'official' plea-bargaining in Italy. However if you collaborate with the authorities this is taken into consideration by the judge. (with up to a third of the punishment being in play)
A and R were there.
Usi is not involved.
I'm trying to track down any local rag from the 1st november, in which there was the name and photo of the 4th suspect...without any luck so far. I've heard two names, one is Rasheed. He's a musician, and if its who I think it is, he's played music with P in the past.
...sorry, not the first of november, the date of the three arrests...
The Corriere della sera claim that the prof has confirmed he was with P from 8pm to 10pm that night. The police are about to interview him
I need help with some technical stuff. The police claim that at 8-38, P's mobile phone hooked up with the 'cella', directly above Meredith's house.
P's bar is a 10 minute walk from Meredith's house. I don't know where P lives.
For the first time in a while, this is not the first thing on Italian news. A football supporter was shot dead today by the police in Tuscany, about an hour from here.
Hmm... still 28 minutes without an alibi. He could have left at 10 pm, arrived at Merediths at 10:10, kill her in 8 minutes, return to 'Le Chic' at 10:28 and issue the receipt.
But its unlikely.
P apparently has many other witness's. In particular, a group of belgian students who were in his pub.
The shit in the toilet doesn't belong to any of the three suspects, according to the corriere.
Gen was like:
> Amanda is surely just getting herself in deeper water.
*deeper*?
She sure as shit stinks ain't going to come out of this smelling of roses; she will be convicted, along with at least two male accomplices, of sexual assault and murder, so her wriggling while she's on the hook is not going to make any difference at all.
Damian was like:
> The shit in the toilet doesn't belong to any of the three suspects, according
> to the corriere.
My money's on the dead girl for this one. In a few days the results of the analysis of the fecal matter will probably be revealed, telling us what the owner ate and what else was in the bowl.
The mattress appears to have made a return. If I remember correctly, the early news stories stated the body was found "under a mattress". Subsequent stories referred to a "duvet", and the mattress seemed to have been forgotten, however, the graphic from the Torygraph, posted by deepen, states the body was under the duvet and the mattress.
I wonder if they were put over her to muffle sounds/supress movement, or if the arrangement was post mortem?
Todger...I completely agree. It's been all over for A and R for a while now. Do you have any idea how precisely the 8-38 call by P, can be placed at the house??? Apart from his lies, this seems to be what is convincing the police he was in some way involved.
That Amanda is said to be in jail writing "her version" of things tells me that she thinks she can story her way out of this. She's probably had a history of easily deceiving people, I'd imagine in small ways, most of the time -- things that seemed like white lies at the time. But put together, all part of a pattern.
I gotta say that some of the people who don't claim to know her but are defending her strike me as folks who simply can't believe any young woman with an education would get involved in such a horrendous crime.
If Amanda had been a literate, 20-year-old young man from Seattle, nice-looking, former barista, you name it -- how much slack would some of you folks cut that person? Not nearly as much as you want to believe Amanda was a victim, too. Because we all know that men are always the evildoers.
Truth is, statistics are against males, and any guy who denies that is being thick. But I've been studying this stuff for too long now, and for me, Amanda fits a distinct pattern I've seen embodied in other young women who are accused of taking part in violent crimes.
It isn't a myth that more men commit violent, sexually-related crimes than women. It's true. But I think some people believe that women do not have it in them to be involved in such acts, and I'm sorry to tell you if you're in that group, you're wrong. Women can and do commit or take part in committing vicious, brutal crimes all the time.
I believe the police here know exactly what they're looking at. I keep comparing it to the McCann disappearance, where there's some new faux development every other week. The fact is, the murder of Meredith Kercher has been totally different. The Italian authorities have been quite consistent in focusing on more than two peoples' involvement in the crime. They've cited credible evidence that is pretty easy to obtain nowadays and rather hard to screw up.
Let me throw this at anyone who just can't believe Amanda Knox had any part in this crime -- if the Italian cops are dead wrong on this and just keeping our poor little American girl cooped up on trumped-up charges, where is our government? Where's the American ambassador to Italy demanding independent investigation? Why isn't Amanda being protected in the consulate or embassy there? The silence is deafening there, and that speaks volumes to me. Italians and Americans get along, nationally-speaking, and if there's been any communication about this case, I'll bet you whatever American authorities learned from their Italian counterparts was pretty convincing.
Just had to throw some rambling 2 cents of my own in.
Steve
Kevin and Maggie: Where did you both read that blood was found on Rafaelle's underwear?
Emily: Like you, though it doesn't make him a murderer, I also think Rafaelle seems rather strange. Every single time you see him, he has the same facial expression. He doesn't look happy, sad, distraught, upset - his face doesn't give anything away. He seems like a passive person. Perhaps it would explain why he was seeking stronger/extreme experiences - because he doesn't feel things easily? Or perhaps he was still stoned.
RandomGuy was like:
> Kevin and Maggie: Where did you both read that blood was found on Rafaelle's
> underwear?
The UK media is running that; I think I saw it in the Observer, on the BBC website and The Mirror's too.
Damian was like:
> Do you have any idea how precisely the 8-38 call by P, can be placed at the
> house??? Apart from his lies, this seems to be what is convincing the
> police he was in some way involved.
I don't really know; I'm sure the location of a mobile phone can be located to a particular cell, but whether or not the precise location *within* a cell can be fixed is not the sort of thing I know. But if they have PL's phone using the cell closest to the house, they can put him in the vicinity; I would imagine they also have the call logged on the recipient's phone too--probably in the same cell.
It may be that there is evidence that hasn't been released yet--not just the phone call and Knox's testimony (and possibly RS's too), but something from forensics.
The fact that PL claimed to be at the bar during the killing, but doesn't have the till receipts to support that assertion, seems a good reason to keep him banged up. He also changed the IMEI number of his phone (or changed phone, depending upon the version of events one reads) Also, while it seems there may be people who are willing to say PL was at Le Chic, there is also evidence to suggest the bar wasn't opened when PL claimed it was open--but this is just kicking over what is already known. Perhaps there are more revelations to come ...
Cheers todger. November 1st is a public holiday in Italy. When a holiday falls on a Thursday or a Tuesday, 99% of italians make a 'bridge'. (linking it to the weekend and taking the 4 days) The majority of italian students in Perugia went back, that long weekend, to their parents houses. This explains why Meredith's neighbours weren't around and why it is plausible that it was a quiet night for the local bars.
Also, people go out very late here...the bars are always empty until 11ish.
and...not giving receipts is common practice here...to the extent that making a purchase and leaving a shop/bar without a receipt is a criminal offence here.
The request from PL's representative for a second post-mortem examination has been declined and the body has been released and is now back in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/70.../uk/
7088667.stm
The Swiss prof will be interviewed tomorrow. If there really is no forensic proof that P was in the house, and the prof confirms what he has already said, I think P's lawyer will ask the judge to release his client.
@ damian,
Thank you for the confirmation that there was a natural explanation for the Italians being away, be it the two in Meredith's flat or the four young men in the flat downstairs.
Though of course, depending on how sensitive they are, they will be blaming themselves for being away and thereby allowing this to happen....
The Guardian says that the police are playing down the search for the 4th man...are looking for the man seen in the laundrette, but in connection with another case!
They also say that the 8-38 call, puts him in the area of Meredith's house, not the area of his bar. Remember, the distance between the two isn't great; a 10minute walk, or as the crow flies, much less.
I agree totally with Steve.
It's quite possible that Knox played a central role in the murder, possibly even administering the final stab to the neck, while the two men (Solecito + plus unknown) "had their way" with Meredith.
Was this deep final stab administered intentionally?
I would say, subconsciously yes.
Knox projected all her pent-up anger against her mom, stemming from latter's relationship with toyboy husband, onto Meredith.
Knox had a crush on Lumumba from the first day she saw him. When she realised that Lumumba actually found Meredith more attractive, all of Knox's pent-up anger against her mom turned into envy and jealousy of Meredith. It was then that she resolved to seek bloody revenge. Incriminating Lumumba was the final act in her dastard plan.
Thank you to everyone for linking news articles and web sites that relate to this tragedy.
That the text msg about Meredith dying could be about Meredith Grey in the American television show "Grey's Anatomy" would be an incredible coincidence. Ms. Grey did, in one of last season's episodes, go into a coma after nearly drowning, and her status was touch-and-go for an episode.
Bizarre coincidence--I suppose the numbers on both ends of the text msg have been verified?
I send a prayer for Meredith Kercher's family.
According to the Telegraph online, the official judge's report did specifically say that the knife wound did NOT reach MK's carotid artery, and that as a result death took some time. Has this now been contradicted by a reliable source?
erhw...no. Why?
Yea, in light of the new information about Italian TV scheduling (!) I'm inclined to believe that the text message might well be a red herring- hopefully the police can trace the person who sent it and clear that up one way or another. It was certainly a weird thing to do if it is connected to this crime.
Glad that it looks like Meredith's family will get her back sooner rather than later. I am really feeling for them through all this. It broke my heart from the beginning hearing about how her dad just kept calling and calling her mobile, hoping against hope that it wasn't her, that they'd got the name/identity wrong, etc.
Damian just wanted to say thanks for posting so regularly here. It is always good to have a person 'on the ground' who is interested enough to keep those of us further away informed, fill in the gaps etc. I didn't know that 1st Nov is a public holiday in Italy- now I do, it does make perfect sense why all the Italians were off for a long weekend!
Just because a little way back, some posted were speculating about that- Maggie said: 'Re length of time to die. The third knife wound is reported to have gone in deep. If it hit an artery then it would take 90 seconds for Ms Kercher to have lost 3 litres of blood, which is then considered the point of no return. I saw this particular wound being demonstrated on a programme 'Autopsy' on UK Channel 4. A deep vein/arterial wound splatters uncontrollably, especially if it's in the neck, sending blood all over the place - this matches the crime scene reportedly found.'
I think AndyT also then said something about an 'intentional deep stab' so since I've been busy all day I was just wondering if I'm up to date on the latest info.
Thanks for the clarification!
erhw. Yes it was a deep knife cut but as the Telegraph suggests didn't cut the artery. I have to say a slow death makes the whole scenario even more horrendous. I was only pointing out that a major vein or arterial cut does led to a swift death and blood spray (which the Guardian on Saturday reported as being all over the place). According to the Telegraph website, Ms Knox is changing her statement yet again and now claims she wasn't at the flat at all during the day or night. It's also reported that the text message sent to the shop assistant in Rome does refer to the Grey's Anatomy programme a grisly coincidence.
I have to agree with Steve on his summation of Knox's character and the actions of the Italian police.
My thoughts are with the family as well and they must be relieved to get Meredith's body back. This is all so shocking and so sad.
An Italian newspaper reports that police now believe that the cut is compatible with the hand of a woman...
Amanda killed her, it's clear...
Amanda and the African man did the job. I don't think the Italian because he look too naive and dull.
"An Italian newspaper reports that police now believe that the cut is compatible with the hand of a woman...
Amanda killed her, it's clear..."
"The cut is compatible with the hand of a woman????" And so now it's CLEAR that Amanda killed her? If the Italian media report tomorrow, that the cut is "compatible with a monkey" will you change your mind? It seems to me that everyone who takes every media report as the Gospel truth, then declares a verdict, are people who should never serve on jury duty.
she's a liar, she's a slut (promiscuous woman by dictionary definition), she was there, that's clear. her fingerprints are compatible with the signs on MK's face. While some guy was abusing MK, AK was torturing MK with the knife laughing at her pain, enjoying the scene and finally killed her.
That's it
deepen was like:
> Neither can I see the basketball court "haunted by drug addicts", nor the
> "grim" park she had to go through.
I think the basketball court is close to the house. I played with the map someone posted earlier, scolled around and rotated the view. There appears to be a basket ball court set amid an area surrounded by trees. Perhaps this is both the basketball court and "the park"?
In the image, I've labelled the house as "1" and the basketball court as "2".
http://upload.imgspot.com/u/07/
3...perugiacrop.jpg
As far as local geography goes, I've tried to locate Le Chic. Apparently it is in a street called "Via Alessi". However, I can't find a "Via Alessi" in GoogleMaps or the Microsoft map, only a "Via Galeazzo Alessi", so I'm assuming that, in popular usage, when a street is named after a person, the forename is dropped.
If someone could manipulate an interactive map to find 66 Via Alessi, and post a link or an image, I'm sure people reading this page would find it of interest.
AK is the product of the violent American media culture. Blood and extreme violence are in almost any American films sometimes even in comedies. The rate of violent crime in US is extremely high. Bowling for columbine of Michael Moore teaches
Frangi- by the way, I've just noticed, a good way back you wrote:
'erhw wrote :
I think Robert M's ideas about a possible fascination with Harry Potter feeding in to an interest in Daniel Radcliffe are worth considering,
I don't think that AK's reading material was any indicator of her possible propensity for violence.'
Respectfully, that is not the point my post was making, and since I (and my post) totally agree with your above statement anyway (and I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to argue that her reading material- the only thing she really talks about as far as I'm aware is HP- was linked in any way to her involvement in this crime!!!) I'm a little confused as to why you singled me out. My post was a respsonse to Seattleite and Jackie's discussion re how likely it is that someone might have an equal interest in both 'kids' and 'dark' literature. I was simply pointing out that the clear-cut divide within the arts that Seattleite was assuming, does not exist in reality, and pointing out that even with HP this is so. If an actor who many kids (and parents) frequently conflate with the fictional character of HP has recently begun to do some public exploration of the world of 'adult' themes himself- it is not really so surprising that this would draw attention to and spark some curiosity about the same in even the most 'wholesome' of his fans- especially those who are now in early adulthood themselves- who might not otherwise be particularly attracted by non-HP related 'dark' stuff.
My same post said this:
'Of course nobody but AK is responsible for the part she played in this crime- DR or no DR, the girl would appear to have serious problems that pre-date 'Equus'. Just wanted to illustrate that the wholesome/dark divide in the arts is not as black-and-white as it may sometimes appear, even when it comes to kids literature, and nice kids often have an unholy and consuming fascination for whatever comes into their range and is then made 'taboo'. Combine that with some kind of abnormal disturbance, psychopathy or inability to connect appropriately with reality, and it can lead to problems.'
I think this last is probably where the really significant discussion will lie with regard to AK.
kevin i don't think the ILE hold back evidence from the judge. if they had CCTV they would have disclosed it and it would be in the judges report.
confessions are helpful to the police but i cant see them supressing evidence from the court in order to extract further confession. i dosnt make any sense.
Ak has tried everything at an early age: drugs, promiscuous sex...she wanted something more MK was a good girl they didn't get along. AK had this fantasy of seeing the sufferance of a victim of violence and also she wanted to experience the sadistic pleasure of inflicting pain. She found 1 or more guys up to the job and she organized to meet at home then they assaulted M.
by the way Italian police is not trusted in Italy they've done a poor job on a number of cases. They are gross and still culturally influenced by residuals of the fascist way of dealing with public order: heavy hand and quick decisions
Maggie, thanks for the extra clarification on that. One of the worst things for me about this, beyond the obvious fact that anyone could murder another person at all, is that it looks as though she may have died a slow death, locked into her room alone- absolutely horrendous. So I was kind of hoping when I saw your post that new info had emerged while I was busy today, and that she'd died quickly after all. 
Whoever turns out to have been responsible/involved in this, I so want to see justice served fully for Meredith and her family. I can't believe that AK is changing her story AGAIN!!! Something is SO wrong with that girl...
Todger, that is an excellent find. Definitely looks like the basketball court because you can see the basket and net.
I am not really sure where some people here got the idea Amanda was attracted to Patrick Lumumba Diya. She mentioned a beautiful black man in her 2nd Oct entry and then Patrick over a month later but she doesn't connect the two in any way. I don't think Patrick is the beautiful black guy she mentioned. Perhaps though, it could well be the "fourth" guy everyone talks about.
A new detail about the case against Lumumba has appeared in the Daily Excess:
"Police have found a signal “trace” on a mobile phone of Lumumba’s “in the vicinity of the murder scene” at 8.38 pm that night."
"They are also conducting tests on his “sweat-soaked T-shirt” and on “medium length” hair mixed with his own hair."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/v...eredith-
killing
Does anyone really believe the U.S. government would have any interest in the guilt or innocence of Amanda? If so, don't kid yourselves...and don't leave the U.S.
todger, thanks for finding this. I didn't see it. I think the "grim" park is huge park on her way to the university with lots of trees.
Via Alessi and Via Galeazzo Alessi are actually the same. But you won't the 'Le Chic' in Live Maps. the alleys in Perugia are way too small to find it.
I've tried to locate points of interest and put them in an aerial map of Perugia. Locations are approximate:
http://img190.imagevenue.com/
img...a_122_555lo.jpg
Hope this helps a little bit. Maybe someone knows the exact locations.
RGIL- I agree that there is no evidence whatsoever on Amanda's blog to equate the 'beautiful black man' with PL. I definitely don't get the impression that they're one and the same either. She's far more gushy about the good dancer guy than she is about PL, and it doesn't sound as though she's even particularly attracted to him, although she was clearly flattered by his attention.
Deepen, thanks for the locations on the aerial picture; it adds something to the story to be able to see where the various places are located.
You're right about the alleyways! I had located Via Alessi in googlemaps and tried to navigate to it from the house using the microsoft map, but couldn't do it. I got lost around the cathedral/fountain (or whatever the large round thing is).
I can see the cathedral in the picture you posted, but I can't see the building I saw in microsoft map that looks like a prison. If I recall correctly, it was in the old part of town, quite close to the cathedral (I know the suspects are being held in the new prison which is out of town, but the old prison is distinctive because of its panopticon style layout).
While I couldn't find my way from the edge of town to a bar in the town centre, I am adding to my geographical knowledge, and I also know who Galeazzo Alessi is!
I also found some fliers for Le Chic: perhaps this was one of the ones the murdered girl handed out ...
http://deco-00.slide.com/r/1/100...ifw0J/
watermark
As an example of how confused the information/speculation is getting...this from KOMO in Seattle:
"The Guardian reported on Saturday that the police are following several leads, including one man's claim that he had received a puzzling text message from Knox on Oct. 31. "
Surely this is an error by the writer, as I have seen nothing here or elsewhere concerning the origin of the text message. The latest reports are saying that the message can be explained by the Grey's Anatomy episode where Meredith drowns/is in a coma (although that was last season in the States...is Europe a season behind?).
Here is a link to the story:
http://www.komotv.com/news/local...l/
11185091.html
Personally, I don't think the murder was premeditaded, so I can't see how the text message is related.
Sorry, but the Secret History thing is starting to get up my nose, possibly because it's my favourite book. Apart from the fact that a student has been murdered, I don't see one single similarity here. Not one.
The killers in the book are an extremely tight-knit, isolated, highly intelligent and erudite group of students. The accused killers here barely knew one another, appear to have moved in wide and flexible social circles, don't appear to be defined by any unusual intelligence or erudition, and aren't all students. The (male) student in the book is killed because he's threatening to reveal the others' participation in an earlier murder, and I could of course be missing something but I haven't exactly seen that here. Bunny's murder in the book has absolutely no sexual component, while this murder clearly does. The killers in the book plan and execute the murder meticulously, while this murder seems deeply disorganised and unplanned.
Seriously, I could be missing something, but the mere fact that the victim is a student doesn't constitute some amazing similarity in my mind. You could find that level of similarity to just about any murder novel ever written, if you tried hard enough. (Talented Mr Ripley, anyone? It's set in Italy!!! Amanda Knox must have read it!!! She must have identified with Tom!!!! Maybe there was a boat involved!!!!!)
Plus there's absolutely NO evidence that any of the suspects had ever READ the damn book.
It's always tempting to see literary links in a situation like this, where one of the accused had ambitions of being a writer. But I tend to agree with Lili here, even without having read Donna Tartt's book. In the history of crime it is actually very rare to find a proven link between a work of fiction -- book, movie, TV, whatever -- and someone committing a crime. Such links certainly exist, but they just don't happen all that often.
deepen,
On your map, you have circled the University of Perugia, instead of the University for Foreigners (where AK and MK attended classes). The University for Foreigners is one building directly underneath the letter "B" in Basketball on your map, and the "grim park" is a very little park in between the basketball court and the piazza (square) in front of the university. I spent the summer in Perugia, so I know these places fairly well... Everything else on the map seems to be in exactly the right spot.
This blog is certainly the most intelligent discussion of this case.Lots of critical thinking Many insights here that are much more to the point then the judges generalizations. I'd like to thank all the contributers. - Except the guy who blames Amandas actions on American violent films because Michael moore said so - your feeble minded
and pinecone who writes:Does anyone really believe the U.S. government would have any interest in the guilt or innocence of Amanda? If so, don't kid yourselves...and don't leave the U.S.
Your a complete idiot
todger, unfortunately I don't know where the prison is, but the old town of Perugia is looking really beautiful in birds eye view so I will probably spend some time surfing it. Maybe I will find it.
The flyer is splendid ... on some news reports they mentioned a website for 'Le Chic' but I couldn't find it?
ariel, thanks for your correction. Its obvious now that I see it. Its really a "two minute walk" or even less. Are you able to place the 'Le Chic' too?
deepen, I don't know Le Chic exactly, but Via Alessi is the one you have highlighted, and it's not very long... maybe 3 blocks...
I found a good map of that area at:
http://glastweb.pg.infn.it/works...mages/
mapPG.jpg
A bit more about the hunt for the Fourth Suspect:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle453071.ece
"The Algerian musician being hunted was spotted on CCTV near the death flat. He is thought have fled to France – and a bloody fingerprint on a cushion does not match the other three suspects. "
damian thought a possible name for this man might be Rasheed (#35006)
there are people murdered everywhere every hour but what makes this so fascinating (terrible word to use but...) the fact that this seemingly normal girl seems to be at the center of this. Amanda was the stimulus for all this to happen. Maybe none of these people would have ever done something like this on there own but with her talking shit to them they took her quite seriously and spurring each other on things got Way outa control Fast.If Amanda held her down thats a horrific image ,made more personally disturbing after watching her on youtube. She was somehow the enabler here ... but I may be wrong. We may never really know. Ever
There's something about her BF that makes me think of Leopold & Loeb (I'm from Chicago). RS is very cool. He thinks he is more intellligent than the ILE. I wouldn't be surprised to see RS & the father pin this on AK. RS's father has already taken steps to distance his son from her.
I notice that people are very careless with their facts in this case. For instance, Holly doesn't want Amanda to be too sympathetic, so she keeps bashing the UW.
It's a fine university. And despite what Holly said, hard to get into. From US News & World Report:
Fall 2006 Admissions Statistics
Overall acceptance rate: 34.3%
How hard would it have been for Holly to Google "University of Washington, acceptance rate" before making a remark?
Not familiar with Leopold & Loeb - but I agree - boyfriend is "too cool"
Isabella: Do you feel UW is under attack because of this case? I doubt it... nor is an institution of that size and history likely to be effected. Unibomber went to Harvard and I didn't see them closing the doors after he was arrested. Mostly I am not sure a posters personal opinion about a university is a "fact" of this case anyway (I read her posts just now and there is not any bashing at all...imo. But as long as we are on facts: it is a fact that acceptance rates can be very deceptive and really only deal with competition to get in and not completely with excellence of the school. Costs, geographical location & demographics, and school budget will all factor into the %. 34% is kind of better than average (80% of 4 years schools in US accept 50% of applicants, only 3% accept less than 25%) but not by all that much. I have lots of UW graduates as friends and I think they would agree. I have removed all snarky comments which originally appeared in the draft of this post.
Fall 2006 Admissions Statistics
Overall acceptance rate: 34.3%
(sarcasm on) Wow, you don't say! Only slightly more than one out of three gets in! (sarcasm off)
I'm not bashing anyone (except maybe the perp). I know intelligent UW graduates. I stand by my earlier contention that there's nothing impressive about a middle-class, privileged white girl getting into UW, especially as a liberal arts major. My point being, we have no evidence of Amanda being gifted, talented, or above-average in any way for her socioeconomic group.
Soobs, re your comment way, way above: You're twisting at balls I'm not pitching. I wasn't referring to any of your comments, but those of several others (such as Random Guy) who seem to have a certain reverence and protectiveness toward Knox. As Steve noted above, it's unlikely they'd have the same charity toward a young man in her situation.
You're one of the more prolific commenters here. You tend to be pretty good at analyzing evidence, but this isn't the first time you've flipped out regarding someone's innocent social commentary.
I will acknowledge I find her situation satisfying in a way I don't feel about most murder stories. Not like Harmony Creech's mother, for example, or Kevin Underwood, or Kyle Huff. Often, murder suspects are pitiable characters, despite their terrible actions. This young woman is more like Scott Peterson -- someone who seems to be used to having it her way, and is getting her comeuppance.
I also admit the thrill-kill idea is probably stretching things. Women who do that are rare and tend to have had very sad lives (from what I've read on this blog anyway). No, she seems like more of a jealousy or self-preservation killer. Every now and then, don't we hear about a young woman whose boyfriend sleeps with another girl, and then the girl gets her boyfriend to help her kill the other girl for revenge? This sounds more like one of those to me.
La Repubblica this morning says the police have AK on film entering her house alone at 8-43, wearing 'light coloured clothes'. This contradicts what I said yesterday about the cameras not covering the house. I was there yesterday, and it didn't look like there were pointing at the house...sorry. The article also says that someone wearing dark clothes may not have been picked up by the cameras!
Confused??? Me too. I reckon the police have much more than they have released and that they are trying to put pressure on A to tell them the dynamics of what happened in the house. A said yesterday that she wasn't there, and straight after, this camera footage of A 'opening her door' is leaked...
most likely the La Repubblica is just more disinformation. this could be 'to put pressure' on the suspects. the full cell records and any CCTV will all come out in the end, the absence of DNA from P the scene is a real mystery. If this is so it would be pretty incredible that he would have the victims hair on him but not left ANY at the scene.
...this video of A entering the house is in all the press here. I would be extremely surprised if this information hasn't come directly from the police.
also...there are no fingerprints of A in A's room!!
...and a light coloured dress and top, belonging to A, and believed to be the clothes she was wearing that night, were found at R's house.
There seems to be no footage of any other person entering the house from the camera. The police have since put on dark clothes and managed to enter the house without being picked up by the camera.
A witness claims he walked past the house at 2am that night, and heard raised voices.
Let's face it someone who changes their story repeatedly is, to the objective observer, not telling the truth. I'm so pleased AK's turnaround has been contradicted by concrete evidence. Knox is only implicating herself further. Her best defence at the moment is to keep quiet.
Erhw: yes I was hoping that the reports of a slow death was not reported right...:-(
Damian, are the screen grabs from this footage in the press or just the information? If images are there date/time logs on screen?
I recall the likely time it took for the victim to die was approx 30 mins. A terrible slow death certainly but not the hellish 2 hours that has been bandied about...
Rob...just the information so far...
There have been some questions here about the cell phones usage of the suspects in this case, especially that of PL's cell phone being detected by the cellular radio/multiplexer tower nearest MK & AK's home. So for those unfamiliar with how GSM radio signaling systems work I will provide some clarification based on what ILE statements said, and that were reported by media channels.
Cell phones, whether powered on or off, are continuously broadcasting a ping signal to the GSM network towers so that the network knows where they are so it can, within microseconds, tell the central call center switches where to send the radio connection to complete a call (to the called recipient) or send a call (from the caller). Note that I said "powered off" as in turning the phone off so that you cannot place a call or hear its ring from an incoming call, unless you power it back on.
This is different than removing the battery from the phone. If you remove the battery, the phone is not only powered off, it also can no longer send its ping and the network can no longer track its location. So when the police stated (again according to the MSM [main stream media]) that both AK and RS cell phones were turned off from sometime the evening of 01 NOV and the morning of 02 NOV when the network again detected them, I am certain they are referring to the fact that the cellular electronic tracking database showed that the respective phones where no longer sending their radio ping to any towers.
Now I am from USA where we have GSM, TDMA and CDMA networks, while European countries are completely standardized on GSM networks. IT makes no difference to the radio signaling technology I mention above that is used, all this radio equipment now comes with "location detection signaling" that can locate any cell phone with a charged battery installed within a 45 meter (~150 ft) radius. This is a law enforced upon manufacturers and cellular carriers if they wish to sell and install cellular equipment in the USA. I am most certain that EU countries also have such laws, but regardless I know that the equipment in Europe meets the same standardized specifications that are equal to those in the USA for GSM equipment.
To an investigator this tells us that these suspects were smart enough to know that they should remove their phones batteries so that their location could not be tracked by the network. And any pending investigation by the authorities into a person's claim that they were attacked, abducted and raped in their own home, these suspects could deny they were there at the time. Smart huh? Yes maybe as long as any other evidence is not left.
Such behavior (remove batteries) leads me to think that the sexual attack upon MK was premeditated at least to the extent of exactly what times the signals were lost. MSN did not report that the ILE said exactly the times the cellular database said these phones were turned off (and for a very good reason, because
(and for a very good reason, because the devil is always in the details).
Now in the case of LP we do have a lack of intelligence in this technology. First if it is
true that ILE read out is cell phone location within 45 meters of the closest cell tower to MK & AK's home, he obviously forgot to remove the battery. Until, that is, he met up with AK & RS at the basketball court at which point thinking they are all smart they remove their batteries. For AK & RS that's cool, they could say they walked over to RS's abode as they later stated. But for PL, well what's his explanation for his cell phone being detected at the same location and at the same time his and the others cell phones leave the network.
Oh oh, that's a mistake by LP. Too much saliva on his brain at the thought of an exciting sexual assignation to follow for him, to know that he has possibly made a mistake if
something goes wrong and he needs to cover his tracks. So instead why does he later switch the SIM card in his cell phone. He thinks he's smart about cellular technology and that
changing the SIM will cover his cell phones identity.
Switching the SIM card merely changes the IMSI [International Mobile Subscriber Identity] and possibly the number, carrier and subscriber data. IT DOES NOT CHANGE the IMEI
[International Mobile Equipment Identity] which is the hardware identity and id hardwired in
the physical electronics of the phone.
That is why if your cell phone is stolen and you report it to your carrier the carrier can disable the phone even if the thief swaps out the SIM card.
Both numbers [IMSI and IMEI] are broadcast to the network continuously. To alter a IMEI one would have to have some very expensive electronic programming equipment and some adroit electronic engineering skills, not something I think you or I or LP would have lying around in our homes or places of business or in our working
skill sets.
They got you LP. Yes, not too smart. Why did he even keep his cell phone? Why not ditch it completely, so it wouldn't be found, and report it stolen? Especially after something went wrong at the scene of his so called pleasure to be had evening. Or better yet why not just leave his cell at the bar turned off so no one can use it and go without it.
Why? Because he too panicked when his plans went wrong. Thought changing the SIM would cover his tracks as to any messaging and calls going on before hand and afterward. Not as smart as he (and they) thought they were.
Best guess by me is that he is the least culpable in this crime's planning, but that makes no difference. He is as culpable as AK & RS who most likely did the set up in the most tragic results of their plan. To me this is why the judge called it "a sexual game gone bad."
Just thought I would clear up the cell phone evidence in this case for the persons providing the great commentary on this horrendous crime. I have no doubt that some of the DNA
thanks Damian, i see La Repubblica online thinks P's story is plausible. I wonder if his phone was taken on a trip that night without him knowing?
Consider if the couple were setting him up that the boyfriend is a computer engineering major and can easily flash the IMEI on P's phone to change the ID. I wonder if P has actually got a totally new phone and possibly number? That would fit with his phone going missing. allegedly the couple switched their phones off at the same time that night.....
any sources for the phone of Patrick would be fantastic
I have no doubt that some of the DNA
evidence yet to be processed (which can take weeks depending on the priority queue it is given in the labs) will also place LP, PS and AK at the scene. If in fact MK struggled she only has to just scratch so called dead cells off the skin of any and/or all the suspects to have cellular DNA under her nails. Actually DNA can be extracted from any body fluid (blood, saliva, sweat, nasal mucus etc).
Let me know if anyone would like some clarification on how DNA evidence is processed and evaluated within a forensic paradigm. The following web site provides some good description on DNA and other crime forensics.
http://www.abc.net.au/science/sl...sic/
default.htm
As the local IE was quoted as saying by the MSM, "this case is closed". Except, of course, for the why and the gruesome how.
coyothewaits i just see that your on the IMEI as well, i hadnt read your posts while i made mine above, will do after coffee...
Ariel- is it documented anywhere that both girls were definitely studying at the Universita per Stranieri? I've been wondering about it for a while, since I'm sure I've seen it reported at least once that Meredith was at Univ. of Perugia, but then their housemate stated for the judge's report that they walked to classes together. Can anyone clarify this? I think its most likely that they were both at the university for foreigners, but it is possible that Meredith might have been enrolled at Univ. of Perugia.
Holly- I agree, if Amanda Knox was involved in the way it is appearing she was, and there was any premeditation, it was most likely jealousy-fuelled. It may have been purely sexual jealousy, but my guess is that although that is likely to have been a major factor, it was probably even broader than that.
Hi Rob:
Flashing the IMEI to change it would not have helped him afterwards, and obviously he didn't have the skill set or software to do it. The phone would have already revealed its owners identity to LE at the time or just before the crime took place.
What I am implying here with the cell phone analysis is that there are some smarts being demonstrated by the suspects but only for a plan that did not involve an out right homicide crime though it possibly would involve restraint of the victim thus making it borderline kidnapping and attempted rape at the least.
That once the scene started down with MK and the others it got out of control. And the results being tragic and overwhelming "smarts" go out the door in panic.
erhw..they both went to the university for foreigners.
Coyotewaits...thanks alot for that, it helps alot. I don't know anything about about these things so it seems likely I had misunderstood. Many reports did say however that he changed his IMEI the morning after. I did a bit of research, pressed a few stars and asterix's on my mobile, and it then seemed pretty straight-forward to change the IMEI. But maybe that isn't the IMEI? (the 14digit prefix added to your number.
Rob...I hope you are right. Why did P deny changing his 'phone'??? As you say, maybe because HE didn't. But wouldn't he have noticed his phone missing for the night??? I don't get it...
coyotewaits- thanks, very interesting, i knew a little about how this works but you've filled in some gaps for me. interesting link too.
rob- i had the same thought about PL's mobile phone possibly going 'walkies' from the bar without his knowledge. Especially now that AK's most recent version has her claiming that she wasn't there at all, and thus ADMITTING (by default alone, although i think she's actually said as much- was it to her mom?) in light of her earlier story that she has been trying to frame PL. If there really is no other evidence against him, that would be a way to explain away the incriminating 'cell ping'. It would not explain his having changed his sim card unless the phone was taken and never returned though- the only thing that would support his innocence would be a whole new phone. And it certainly wouldn't explain away the victim's hair being found on his person.
Damian
Doing a *#06# on the phone key pad only displays the IMEI. You can change it from the phone key pad.
As Rob pointed out you have to connect the phone electronically to a computer, obtain some flash software and burn a new IMEI into the phone. But that's not enough. You have to have a legit IMEI code and not duplicate. If you tried you most likely would just end up disabling the phone.
Suffice it to say we do not need to go into these details here.
It is rather to note accurately that LP did not have enough smarts to cover his trail after being there (in the immediate vicinity) with his phone (or at least his phone being there).
Furthermore, to demonstrate that he had enough smarts though to know that if he was part of a plan to commit rape and murder that he would have left his cell phone at home. And of course, worn a complete lab anti-contamination suit, hair, skin, hand cover plus a really good condom.
...the Swiss prof was interviewed for 6 hours yesterday. He confirmed that he was with P and a group of Belgian students at p's bar that night. Apparently, however, he was not able to confirm that P was at the bar all this time. Again, this is from La Repubblica. (as reputable as Italian newspapers get)
Damain and others.
You CAN NOT change an IMEI from the phones key pad. My typo.
Gotcha coyote..thanx.
If P was at his bar and then popped out for a bit,who was left in charge? It can't be too difficult to verify this. He wouldn't have left the customers to their own devices would he? I'm not sure whether the police have tracked down these Belgian students yet. I read that they had returned to Belgium...
The only conclusion one can draw from the facts stated in the MSM reports we have, and deciphered from LE and the judges documented reports, not from the so called MSM leaks, which are probably factual leaks but not guaranteed that they are reported accurately is that:
LP was at the murder location or in the vicinity at the approximate time of the attack.
Remember something. When leaks are made they are most likely one way statements. Moreover, when LE make public statements they are definitely one way only statements. Otherwise they would be press conferences open to Q and A's.
What I mean by "one way statements" is that the journalists and reporters do not have the opportunity to ask clarifying questions.
E.g. in my cell phone analysis above, I would have asked the LE what did they mean by their statements that the suspects AK & RS's cell phones had been turned off. Did they mean there were no calls either way or that the batteries were removed.
Further clarification. By saying LP's cell phone was at the location was it detected there by the location ping or did he make or receive a voice or data (text message) call?
erhw...A was speaking to her mother when she said that she had been wrong to accuse P and that she was not in the house that night. Why doesn't A's mother shut her mouth??!!
If not to protect her lovely daughter, then out of respect for Meredith and her family. (she's also said that her lovely daughter is very upset about the death of her'friend')
Anyway, from what I gather, A's lawyer, (who must be having fun with these lovely ladies) is playing down this new change in story...just a 'mother-daughter chat'.
What was the source of the statement quoted some time ago here and who was the source referring to making that statement that: around 20:00 - 20:30 hours on 01 NOV that AK received a text message from LP that he was "closing the bar and not to come to work."
And subsequently she text messaged "Ok, see you later."
If this is a fact, then LE has these actual text messages from the carrier's database storage. Though these messages could be innocuous as to the later crime they do not stand up to scrutiny that the bar was open. Another witness was quoted by the MSM as saying he found it closed at 19:00 hours.
It is possible someone else opened the bar for LP at say 21:00 - 21:30 but if so we will find out. The professor's statements become irrelevant if he can not state the time he and the Belgium students were at the bar. Unfortunately the news journal does not tells us these facts or who their source is/was. And besides six hours condensed to a few press words. One can obviously assume that the source was a leaked source and such source was not in the interrogation of the prof.
Discount it till we can establish it as fact from the official LE statements. Besides LE does not have to make any more statements publicly now that they have the suspects under detention legally, do they.
Damian: Please give us some insight into how the Italian LE work with the journalists in these kind of investigations, especially rather high profile ones like this case and the police shooting of the football fan Saturday.
I have to sign off now for some hours. Will check back with you sometime later this day.
One last interesting note to Damian in post to erhw.
A's mother is obviously an impulsive personality as I observe A also to be from the data on her personality shown through links here. Impulsivness is most likely a genetic trait more than it is a learned trait, but either way, like mother like daughter.
Denial also has it sanity purposes.
Waves.
Coyote - MSM reports the judge asked P why he changed his IMEI. We don't know if the phone itself wss changed and/or the SIM. I have often heard from shadier types 'admit nothing deny everything'. P must be wondering what has happened to him...he was riding high new business, baby et al. !!! Unless he is actually guilty of acting in this crime.!!! Its very easy to flash the IMEI on most phones just google it and you can see a ROM kit is available for about £20, just attach it and the phone ROM to your Pc and run really simple command line software. In the Uk you can get phones IMEIs changed for £10-15 at street markets or corner convenience stores. I think the UK gov has brought in new laws to make it illegal.
Coyote...I'm off to work now, but will get back to you. About the football fan shooting...
It happened at 9 o'clock yesterday morning at a service station on the motorway.
It became public 3 hours later.
Initial reports said that two large groups of hooligans (Juve and Lazio) had been involved in a mass brawl and that a Lazio fan had been killed, maybe by a pistol shot.
Initial reports also said that the dead man had a criminal record and was known for being violent.
Much later, the truth started to come out...
There were two cars. There was a fight between the occupants of these cars. (this is Italy and unfortunately, par for the course)
The fight was over...one car was leaving the scene. Gabriele Sandri was sitting in the other car. He was shot in the neck and killed by a policeman.
His lawyer says it was murder.
the slut seems to be even in deeper shit today. Italian news report that she was caught on a cctv placed in the car park in front of her house, which shows that she was getting in at 8,45 pm. So she'll have to stop to say bullshit and tell the truth. Anyway whatever she'll do, a thing is sure: she's fucked
i have 2 mobiles and 3 SIMS, i use them for different purposes like better local rates for one , better international for another. P probably had more than 1 phone, business & personal, international & local. His family was abroad in Africa and Poland. Meredith was using 2 mobiles while in Italy. It pretty common over here in EU.
A mobile going missing for a night is not unusual for me, I misplace them al the time but they 'turn up'.
'location detection signaling' only works very close to a mast and must be instigated by the carrier signaling to a specified IMEI. A turned off phone would not appear on a ping log. the periodic pings of a mobile by a radio or TV can be heard, a turned off one does not ping.
If P acted with his phone to cover his trail then he would have altered the time on his till as well. In Italy customers bills are settled after they have been sitting around for a long time - usually talking utter rubbish....
If A was angry & jealous that P was giving her the elbow & a job to Meredith - AK received a text message from LP that he was "closing the bar and not to come to work" - then she could've set revenge on both......
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2855320.ece
Here is the link to the article which says that Amanda was caught on CCTV entering the house- this must severely undermine her case- especially after changing her story AGAIN that she had not left her boyfriends house.
Question about RS- can anyone answer?
-Is it true he had only MET AK two weeks ago? Did they immediately begin dating? How well did they know each other?
-RS was said to call his sister, who is in the police force, upon discovering the crime. Other sources have said he and AK were waiting below the window of the house when the postal police arrived and calling the Carbineiri (?)...who was actually called?
-Is it confirmed that traces of blood were found on his underwear?
Just trying to separate facts from specualation...
Apparently the slut met Rs two weeks before in a party or club. She got laid with him straightway on the same night and the two went on smoking dope and fucking hard for a couple of weeks before the murder. RS said that he had sex just with an other girl before and in a traditionally way, which makes me believe that the slut gave him a good private tuition 'on the rest'. Apparently she's now discovered to be a fervent catholic and spends time with the chaplain of the prison talking about morals and attended the mass.
where is this info on the sex life coming from/
I don't know, it just seems weird to me how fast their relationship seems to have moved. According to the judge, they were both after "extreme experiences" that night- but after only two weeks of knowing each other? Seems odd.
By friends accounts, they both have been described as people of good character, but I personally feel that it is sometimes impossible to predict even what those who we feel are very close to us will do in given circumstances.
Rob- I have read a few different articles which say that they met two weeks ago and she started sleeping at his house immediately.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher407.xml
hmmmm this is known but right has a bee in the bonnet over the fact they slept together the first night of meeting. not to defend the chief suspect but i have not seen anywhere that they actually had sex that night and how far they went at all with any intimate contact. i have seen a photo A's room in the house and it is very small and cell like i wouldn't be surprised to learn that she preferred R's more comfortable apartment as a place to 'crash' from smoking dope and getting away from a crowded house. Even M seemed to hang out at Sophie Purton's as preferable to hanging in the house and having her friends come around.
from my knowledge of hash people dont generally feel like sex or intimacy when out of it and a bit paranoid.
this 'info' about traditional sex seems bogus considering the slant of the poster and no source supporting
does anyone have any photos of the rooms they have been mentioned to have been printed in italian papers? i would be interested to see them
what said about RS sex life really appeared on the news but I can't find right know. I suspect they might have sinned far beyond having sex before the marriage; I guess that AK and RS engaged in sick sexual behaviors like sodomy and oral sex. It is disgusting the thought of our western society breeding a generation of Godless youngsters. The quality of the Jesuit church that AK attended should be seriously questioned. These youngsters are free to sin, we have lost our mechanism of social control; the traditional family is definitely undermined and the authority of the husband/father is lost. He was the one making sure that a girl would have followed the Bible teachings and conserved her integrity until the marriage as God prescribes in the Holy Bible
right.....no
i cant really take on board your intolerance and revulsion towards the 'sins' you imagine so fervently.
you should save it for the sin we know - the brutal killing of a young woman
you should ready yourself for the 'sin' of an innocent man being framed for murder that looks like it could very well be played out. if this happens i hope you shout from the rooftops.
heres a good layout of the apartment crime scene -scroll down, enlarge
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher411.xml
Could we perhaps stick to discussing the case rather than 'Right''s overwhelming obsession with sex? I find it interesting that he/she sees Amanda Knox purely in terms of her sexuality ('the slut', etc) and is apparently incapable of posting anything that isn't focused on sex - but not that interesting.
Holly - "but this isn't the first time you've flipped out regarding someone's innocent social commentary."
Perhaps you weren't stating an opinion that the only people who could think she's innocent of the charge of 1st degree murder are old people (20-40 yrs older) who may have spent time abroad 20 years ago, and who are "working class." Perhaps I misunderstood your opinion. I do get frustrated with those who continue to believe everything that is reported, especially when it changes daily (the Times Online stated in one article that the judge said "the knife IS the one that killed her" then the next day, wrote "it is CONSISTANT" with a knife that could have been used." There is a difference in those two quotes, yet many people take it as Gospel. So yes, lately I've been low on patience for those that immediately "know" the score, and have decided HOW and WHY the murder occurred. However, I don't believe I have "flipped out." LOL You are entitled to your opinion, however.
That's an interesting link holymon. I can't understand why the picture of L is one of him in handcuffs and the others not. Discrimination surely.
I'm very interested in the third person, especially the laundrette description and certainly this takes the others out of the frame if found to have credibility.
First, thanks to everyone and especially damian for their reports.
Second, this is bugging me, re: AK's changing stories...
(1) She wasn't there and doesn't know what happened.
(2) She was there, saw MK and PL go into her room, heard screams and covered her ears.
(3) She wasn't there, and admits she was trying to "frame" PL in her second story.
Okay, so if you were not present, have no idea what happened, have no idea who could have been involved...why do you try to "frame" someone else? And why, in this case, would that someone else be Patrick?
I realize I'm trying to make sense out of a nonsensical story.
"First picture of Meredith's bedroom"
Grainy, but here it is:
http://snipurl.com/1tiyv
This part is fascinating and naturally arouses suspicions:
"Police said that Ms Knox's room at the cottage must have been "thoroughly cleaned" after the crime, as no traces of her fingerprints had been found in the room. She had occupied the room since the beginning of September. "
Thanks, John. I wonder has been blurred out at the bottom of the duvet?
i cant really take on board your intolerance and revulsion towards the 'sins' you imagine so fervently.
Rob, it's pretty clear that what "right" is really trying to do with his nasty terms is to insult and demean any women reading this blog. It's a common creepy-guy tactic: Find a female target, usually not present, and subject her to verbal abuse that women in the vicinity will overhear. If creepy guy is called on it, he'll say, "I wasn't talking about *you.*"
Appropos to some of the earlier exchanges, here's this from last week's Onion: Female Serial Killer Has To Work Twice As Hard To Achieve Notoriety.
Perhaps Knox really did put her fingers over her ears when she heard the victim's screams. But this was after she and the other assailants had left the bleeding victim in her room, locking the door behind them.
I've been away for two days & things have happened & clarified & been explained. That little cellphone seminar by coyotewaits is an ESSENTIAL bit of information for us all to remember, especially re the "location standards" of 150 feet & the two codings each has, etc. Wish we could fix it somewhere on steve's site so she could just tinyurl it in the future.
So, cw, Thanks for the patient explication, thanks for you notation on my theories (I got a beaut coming up, derived from AndyT) and thanks for your interweaving that knowledge with PL's actions & with RS & AK which presents for us how one of the smarter ILE investigators is actually viewing all this and has since late Sunday when they got the cell-phone traces & did the plotting, the same kind of plotting that todger & rob {?} did with google maps above. Also, ANOTHER On-The-Grounder checked in as ariel with helpful info. Please keep reading & chime in.
Now, I DO want to throw in a Monkey Wrench. Coyote's technical points are all "damners", BUT one of the assumptions is that the cell phones are all being used by the people to whom they are registered. I don't doubt that in the case of RS & AK, BUT the IDEA that PL's cell phone was actually being used by 4th Man/Mr X, he of the unflushed toilet, should not be hastily ruled out. IF, big if, ILE NEVER gets hard physical evidence of PL's presence in Meredith's room, then, given the physical evidence for Mr. X, it is likely that Mr X, known to PL, borrowed the cell phone and returned it--at some point, perhaps AFTER switching the card. (Though I suspect that ILE will be able to show or has that PL made the purchase for the new card personally.)
I'm suggesting this because with Mr X, there's just one too many persons in that little room for my tastes.
And NOW they are talking about a stilleto heel print they can't match???? MsX?? Which would make 6 people!! Egads, Grand Central Station.
RGIL - after reading the article, I assume it is her foot that is blurred out.
John: It's what I thought too but then I wondered why they blurred them out?
Ellen: thanks for removing your UW comments. You are a classy lady.
Evidently other posters came from such privileged backgrounds that getting into a good school like the UW would be a cakewalk. Work on your elitism. It doesn't help you solve any mysteries.
Maggie, while I think there's a bit of unconscious racism going on in the way that PL's arrest pic is being used, the pic of RS that is usually next to it is a CROPPED phot of him from one angle with two cops on either side & him in handcuffs. They wanted a "close-up" of RS as the Dan Radcliffe clone.The unconscious racism part--for me-- is that they could do the same crop with PL's pic but don't. Still, this may be the ONLY good shot of PL that the photogs have.
The arrest photo(s) of AK show her wearing Chicago White Sox sweat pants and a matching top with hood, but the top edge of the hood is over her eyes & mostly her nose, with her handbag slungover the tight shoulder. In early versions the cuffs were fully shown, but I've seen a later one where they were blurred out. The decision to go with others is the loss of "eye" contact. And they DO have many others of her & even of one of her & RS lightly kissing just before he leaves the scene. BUT the editors LIKE the one's where she's pensive or biting her nails. For them, the "story" of those photos is GUILTY!
The police also have CCTV of the Algerian leaving at around 23:30. If these really are the only two images the police have (I doubt it) and only Knox was wearing clothes that triggered the CCTV then this implies that she left with the Algerian. I doubt that this is all the police have. If the Algerian left alone why didn't he trigger the camera's when he arrived?
If Knox was alone when she entered the house then this contradicts her earlier statements about going to the house with Lumumba and Sollecito. This news would actually tned to help them. I'm sure the police have other pieces up their sleeves though.
They seem to be leaking just enough info to keep the public convinced of the guilt of the suspects but not leaking so much so that the suspects could start constructing their lies more intelligently. What is really interesting is if they do have images of the three entering the house but they are putting pressure on Knox by saying that she went there alone. She is the weal link here. Lumumba and Sollecito are playing the "It wasn't me" game and will stick to that as long as possible. The police are happy to have them lying now sonce later when the police reveal all the evidence and the suspects have to modify their stories the police will have weeks of the suspects on tape lying.
Random - blurred out of vestigal respect for the feelings of Meredith's family, though IN THAT CASE, they shouldn't have run photos at all. However, I do come down on the side of disclosure, for the most part and, well really, WE here should all be clearly aware of what we are talking aobut & speculating around.
For me that moment was the pic NOTW ran which a photog snapped from the road way above Meredith's corner of the building which showed the top of the bed and the bloody three-finger print on the wall which streams down the wall. The caption is a bit off (is this the killer's hand or perhaps Meredith's?)--its bloody well the killer's hand, given where we see Meredith's body is located in today's leaked pic.
Someone in that group after the deeper blow (more on my theory shortly) TRIED TO STAUNCH THE BLOOD FLOW. Realizing that was NOT going to work, they stood up, turned left while standing on the bed and (I think its a right hand print) tried to wipe the blood off using the wall. If it had been Meredith, she'd have no reason to take her hand away from the wound--if her hands were then free to be placed there even.
The hand is likely RS's or Mr. X, as per what I'm now thinking, the knife is still in Amanda's hand.
Kevin, yes you are correct & I think either rob or damian noted parts of that too--its both a PR spin with the public ("we've really got stuff") and that working THROUGH the evidence takes time. Because if they had had these analyzed images last week, they would have been in the material summarized by the prelim judge. (As in "yet clearly a female person wearing a light-colored dress, similar to that of Ms Knox which was recovered from Mr. S's apartment, is seen entering the apartment at XX:XXpm.")
As to RS & his father throwing Amanda to the wolves, well, OF COURSE!!! Especially as she's gone back to the original story of staying with him all night (which the pings make bogus) while he's sticking with the "she came over much much later". So now its an Offical Story Contradiction.
Evidently other posters came from such privileged backgrounds that getting into a good school like the UW would be a cakewalk.
Absolutely not. The point is that Amanda Knox did.
Work on your argument skills, rather than making ad hominem attacks.
Yes Robert M., poor Amanda at her tender age has apparently not yet learned a critical life-lesson that all heterosexual females are apt to learn at some point, most by unfortunate experience: that males of the species will likely (and are indeed sometimes taught to) "deny, deny, deny" when it comes to their sexual dalliances and/or criminal wrongdoings...sometimes to the point of absurdity.
It seems clear to me that it was not for Knox's benefit that her room was wiped clean. Also Sollecito's prints would have been expected there. Lumumba is a possibility but I would guess it was the Algerian who ordered her to wipe down her room. He had been there before, Meredith had complained about him and he probably didn't want his prints in a house where a murder had occured, whether he delivered the fatal blow or not.
Now this just makes me wonder why the Algerian then didn't bother to flush the toilet (I'm obviously assuming hte shit is his). Did he fear leaving prints on the handle and therefore not flush without realizing that his shit could just as easily send his ass to jail.
He seems to have also left a bloody print in Meredith's room.
In any case, it wasn't for Knox's sake that her room was wiped down.
Robert M
Are the police required to submit all evidence they have to the judge or can they just submit enough to get the suspects reprimanded to prison?
> To an investigator this tells us that these suspects were smart enough to know
> that they should remove their phones batteries so that their location could
> not be tracked by the network. And any pending investigation by the authorities
> into a person's claim that they were attacked, abducted and raped in their
> own home, these suspects could deny they were there at the time. Smart huh?
But not as smart as leaving the batteries in place/phones switched on and placing them in a place (such as RS's house) in order to create an electronic alibi for location.
If someone's going to go to the trouble of acquiring some knowledge of a technology in order to evade apprehension (which appears to be the point of removing the batteries/switching off the phones), it's a shame that the consequences were not thought through: having *no signal* is surely suspicious while having records of a signal showing the location as place X rather than place A would seem to be more sensible
Ah, sorry, this wrap-up theory gets a little long (you know I do that) so I'm breaking it into 3 parts.
Part 1 AndyT's Insight and What It means.
I'm going to elaborate on an AndyT observation that passed on unremarked above. (See also Random Guy's link to crasy girl story.) Even I only focused on it because I'd been reading today's (11/12) Daily M & Daily T & the T & the G. Two of them have photos of (blond-hair, well-built & athletically-pretty but with goof facial abilities who takes after her father) Amanda's MOTHER -- who is very smallish, dark of feature, dark-haired, very bookish (according to Chirs Mellas himself on his mirrored MySapce) etc. Serious oriented.
I looked at Edda and thought, where have I seen her before? Light bulb is that if presented with body types, we'd place Edda as either Meredith's mother or aunt. (cf especially the Kercher family photos of Mom.)
Meredith's "confession" is TRUE -- but shifted in emphasis [which Holly saw early & Steve reiterated above], especially her purported reaction when pressed with "You held her down." When it became her TURN in the violence game, the knife being passed around between the players BEFORE another sex act could occur (note location of Meredith's underpants in the published photo in relation to her leg),
Amanda looked down and "saw", through the blur of hash & booze, her Mother. Because Meredith's general features mirrored those of Edda. And that's why it wasn't just another little cut along the neck as she was told how to do. At that moment, Amanda wanted to hurt her Mother for being able to "get men" she also desired [note how much Chris M is a Younger Version of A's father, which speaks to Edda's own turn-ons], except that, with her frontal-lobe barriers undermined due to the various drugs [cf via Google frontal-lobe & seniors], the knife went ALL the way in.
Mr. X, on left if you are looking down," yells "You stupid bitch", puts his right hand & palm over the wound, which keeps bleeding, gives up and stands & wipes his hand on the wall. The other two don't do anything of much use; likely towels, odd pieces of clothing, etc. Meredith is making sounds, Mr. X slaps her across the face, & between that & the blood loss, Meredith goes into shock (mercifcully, I can only hope that this idea is completely correct).
Part 2 - Amanda has really told the truth but with symbols
This next part gets a little Jungian, but its the millstones through which I'm processing the scenario. What Amanda has said to the ILE is the closest she can get to the REAL truth at this time, that and "I can't take it anymore". As coyotewaits quietly slipped in: "Denial can be Sanity", i.e. your need to grip sanity over the insanity you know you've done leads you to deny EVERYTHING. But as Jung did see, your brain can present that insanity in other ways -- such as saying a black man took your friend into another room & raped her & beat her & likely killed her -- A black man -- A black person -- A black shadow -- The shadow of Your Conscious Self -- which you have let overwhelm your consciousness -- because you never even knew it was there.
Jung's understanding of the Shadow is way more sophisticated then just RCC "sin". BUT, too, the Jesuit understanding of sin is itself way more sophisticated than a kid's Baltimore Catechism puts it (or used too--you'll have to Wiki or Google to see what I mean).
Again, this is NOT to excuse. Its a way of understanding what came through the doors she opened with her excesses, and why.
Amanda is directly responsible for Meredith's death. She inflicted what would prove to be the fatal wound. No one there responded humanely because of drugs & fear (ambulance to hospital = admission of restraint, battery & rape = 5 to 10 years jail & OhMyGodWhatIfSheDies???). But because of drugs & fear & time involved & because the death was unpremeditated, the cover-up was singularly inept. (Cell-phones, partial clean-up, etc.)
And Amanda was the driving force for the Sex Game happening THAT night as Amanda ALONE knew Meredith was returning to London late Friday, and that the roommates were gone already. PL would not have know & RS might have been told but was more content to spend time hashing away. Still, being certain guys, the idea was attractive. BUT the idea and the "let's do it" came from Amanada.
But WHY such overwhelming anger at a person rather like herself she had know for just 3 or 4 weeks and actually seemed to like?
Random Guy in London was like:
> Thanks, John. I wonder has been blurred out at the bottom of the duvet?
I think that's probably the dead girl's foot. If you look for pictures in the European media you'll probably find it visible.
The police aren't playing. Below is a link to two photos, one of the shoe print in the blood stain and one of Sollecito's shoes.
Shoe print
Click on image two to see the other image. Note, the blood print is of the top (the portion nearer the toes) of his shoe. The orientation of the photos is confusing at first. Bottom line is our boy is in dep trouble.
Part 3a Normal Dau-Mom Stuff plus...
Amanda was not jealous of Meredith per se, how could she be? as Meredith only partied in groups and with people Amanda didn't hang out with -- note just that one boyfriend of short duration. Amanda, elucidating from part one above is in a NORMAL adolescent development thing, daughter-mother competition (boy, have I've several versions of this myself), which has been jet-fueled deep down by Chris M as Mom's lover/husband. A's first reaction when told of him & Edda's plans was likely "Ewww" the same reaction to Amsterdam's Red Light district. Still, given that Chris duplicates/stands in for her Dad & Amanda's 14 at the time, its also bestillmybeatingheart. Totally conflicted about this and in Denial about the deeper aspects of its existence. Meredith had just enough of Mom's traits to get Amanda's deep anger displaced over onto her in Amanda's unconscious/Shadow way of thinking. And that's normal too: the psychs call it transference within the client-counselor realtionship.
Even for Jung, while indulging in booze etc is ALSO a mark of adolescent growth, its very very dangerous if one has no idea of the Shadow being there, let alone its potential. And from what little we know of her reading/education, whatever she might have by rote tossed out about, say, Nathaniel Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter in a High School lit paper, it was shallow. A more apt NH book would have been The Marble Faun (set in Italy). Indeed, she would have been better off if she HAD read Donna Tartt's Secret History which has as its overarching theme what happens when the Dionysisan Spirit is let loose by those without experience in doing so. Not only do people die, but the instigators get destroyed also, both literally & metaphorically. (Here's the shift from myth through novel into reality: While celebrating Dionysus, the female Maenads encounter Orpheus & further maddened by his music, tear him apart. While re-enacting a bacchanal rite, a local bystander is killed because the student group in Tartt's novel don't know what they are dong. Meredith is inadvertently killed because while enacting a form of a bacchanl rite, sexualized violence, Amanda does not recognize, and didn't care at that point, that she's let her shadow self take over control of her hand.)
Part 3b. ... Denial is a choppy river.
Amanda's return to the original witness statement means that she has NO coping skills for dealing with her own Self-Induced Encounter with Her Shadow Self. Her comments to the prison chaplain show also she has no real grounding in Jesuit RCC knowledge either. She's in this boat she built and has neither a kayak paddle nor a traditional pair of oars. And the boats crowded with others and its sinking.
So, until ILE leaks more stuff [oooo, those shoe overlays!!], or until there's a dramatic confession [just when does the DNA & fiber stuff get back, eh?], Amanda is going to keep on denying & denying & denying perhaps right up to a trial. Because only through DENIAL can she keep that shadow self at bay, and she needs to do that as she knows what happened when she didn't. She'll be denying it essentially even when/if she takes a deal, if the ILE even offers one.
So that's how I "understand" what happened to Meredith Kercher. Out of her displaced anger towards her Mother, fueled by her own late adolescent urges, augmented by her lack of a truly positive relationship with her Father [he abandoned her again by remarrying], and immediately fueled by an extended use of hash & booze together, Amanda organzied a "climbing party with the boys", to climb the edges of a different experience. Alas the safety lines weren't in place, the piton was in her hand, and she couldn't "see" Meredith in the way she could "see" her friend Andy S who had "trusted his life to her many times".
40 to Life if she keeps Denying. And even over those decades, I doubt she'll figure this out unless the prison chaplains she encounters are better confessors than I'd expect (a spiritual counselor rather than just a "ten Hail Marys" kind of guy). And even understanding isn't going to change what's going to happen to her.
But its more than Meredith will ever now have. I wrote somewhere way above, from what I can read & see, I might want to do things with Amanda, but I'd rather have had time talking & discussing stuff with Meredith. Much rather have had THAT opportunity.
OK, I'm done. That's the How and more importantly the Why for me. Go at it if you will.
But do see AndyT's original post of 11/11 above.
Kevin, those photos look like the right and left of a pair of shoes. The first photo looks like the left shoe, not a shoeprint. You can see what appears to be a shoestring. The second photo is obviously of a right shoe.
I take that back, the first photo looks to be an inverted photo of the right shoe as well. Still see the shoelace however.
Here is the text that accompanies the shoe pictures from Reppublica, englished via babelfish:
Next the print of the shoe found again from the experts beside the body of Meredith. The medical report is hour to winnows of the scientific police. The shoes, but also the knife to serramanico ' Crkt' with a blade of 8,5 cm and one width of 2 cm, have been catalogued between reperti on which in the next few days the technicians of the scientific police and the part experts will make the assessments irripetibili. The outcomes of these examinations would have to be ready within thursday. From the relation it emerges that the police has seized also a pair of shoes of Amanda Knox, marks ' Skechers': but "the design - the agents write - does not turn out compatible with the traces recovered" in the room of Meredith. To the correspondence between the print and the shoe of Prompt, the technicians are arrive to you overlapping to the computer the design of the sole of the shoe, (rendered transparent) to the track: the diameter of the trace on the pavement is of approximately 36 millimeters, that one of the sole of shoe 35. "the minimal differences between the two measurements - it is still written in the relation - can verosimilmente be determined from the mechanical action on fluid substance
The first image is a computer overlay of the shoe print in the blood and the shoe print of Sollecito. That is why you see the shoelace. The other image is just of his shoe print. I should have made that clear.
They say the minimal differences are because of the reaction of the fluid (blood) to the mechanical pressure of the shoe.
kevin re "or can they just submit enough to get the suspects reprimanded to prison?"
In the US its the latter re request for higher or high bail or even denial of bail which is 95% of the case in anything like a murder. Its understood that evidence processing won't be complete.
In the US, however, before trial actually starts, all evidence has to be presented by both sides to each other. The No Suprise Rule with some exceptions. How true in Italy, I've no idea.
The Evidence Leaks
Whatever you might of the small town ILE, the "science police" as they've shown with results & as the various pictures of them at working that show up at some of the links, have to be run at the regional if not national level and certainly appear to be on-the-spot. Which includes, as coyotewaits wants us to understand, how top of the cell-phone evidence they were too.
Who's ever leaking evidential stuff now is DETERMINED that the work of the science police be appreciated for its quality. From what they are leaking, while I have my doubts as to PL, they do have Mr. X there, and Amanda above all [re the finger print in blood -- a photog of THAT would be a real coup but hasn't made it out yet] and are seemingly closing in on RS, though those sneakers are likely very common.
Amanda's Dad may be the KEY
I'm giving Amanda's father about another week to get over the shock and then his MBA/Big Corp skills [let's contain this before it affects the bottom-line this quarter] will kick in. He's familiar with "running the numbers" and as more & more of the evidence testing comes back, the numbers won't look good.
What he then does re advising the lawyers & Amanda will be interesting to see. I don't think her mother will get to the same place unless Dad spends a lot of time building the case for her. Cognitive dissonance operating with maternal ardor. But her father would appear to be a Best Deal kind of guy.
Kevin and Todger: Thanks! Those are great.
Robert M. wrote:
Hmm... I'm not sure. Given the competition for men between mother and daughter as one news report stated above and her anger towards other women, extreme jealousy could be the cause.
Amanda searched hard for a job in Perugia and it took her some time to convince P to give it to her. From there on she was in her own group. As you can read in her blog she liked it there and - more importantly - was needed.
Then Meredith came to her one day and asked her if she could get the same job in the same location. AK wouldn't be the only foreign girl there anymore. And apparently PL had a crush on Meredith.
I re-read Amandas blog because I remembered that she mentioned a lot of men and counted all passages in the text where AK meets other people.
In total she encountered 24 persons, 42% of which are relatives. Of the 14 strangers she met, 86% are men.
Here is a detailed table:
http://img120.imagevenue.com/
img..._122_1078lo.jpg
At least she liked to write about her encounters with male strangers. She rated 6 positive, 5 neutral and 1 negative.
She only writes about 2 female strangers and rates one negative, one positive.
This somehow emphasizes her difficult relationship towards women. At least as a tendency.
Sorry, Robert M. wrote:
"Amanda was not jealous of Meredith per se, how could she be? as Meredith only partied in groups and with people Amanda didn't hang out with -- note just that one boyfriend of short duration."
Thanks, Kevin. I couldn't see it as an overlay, when I first looked at the photo.
The posh parents of the two younger suspects is probably what is driving the Italian police to leak the death images (which are not edited in the Italian press) and the shoe prints. Sollecito’s rich father rolled into town downplaying the whole thing and the police responded by giving the father’s friends back in his home town some images to chew on. That’s not going to get him invited to any high profile dinner parties anytime soon. That print combined with Sollecito denial of ever being in the house has got to be worth 20 years. Lumumba isn’t going to budge, he has a young son, a partner, and business to think about. His only play is total denial. But Sollecito is going to have to strike a deal. He has to modify his story to explain that shoe print. And in getting him to budge the police will be closer to the truth. But the police win either way, the more he denies, the surer he is going to jail.
The same dynamic works for Knox’s father as Robert M eludes to above, although the Italian police would be less sure of American cultural dynamics.
In any case both Knox’s and Sollecito’s positions are unsustainable. They will have to blink in the coming days and again change their stories - probably under intense pressure from their parents so that they can sustain their high social positions.
Kevin...Robert...in Italy, the police don't have to give all they have...it is indeed sufficent to submit enough to keep them in prison.
For me, P's phone is the key. I know it's not the best source, but all my students today seemed convinced that P has told the police that he bought another phone 2 weeks before the murder and that he started using it the day after, swapping his sim and changing the IMEI.(which he denied) I thought he had changed (maybe the passive voice is better) only the IMEI. Any info on this would help alot...
I've just got in from a long day at the chalk face and read what's been written...maybe it's a cultural thing, or maybe it's because I'm tired, but I don't understand much
Don't know about the cell phone forensics (I work in complex litigation in civil actions---a corporate thing) and not sure how this would translate to Italian but you are "priceless". In US culture...that's a good thing.
Robert M. I agree with the scenario and the motivation you have set forth.
Re: "Meredith is making sounds, Mr. X slaps her across the face, & between that & the blood loss, Meredith goes into shock (mercifully, I can only hope that this idea is completely correct)."
-- I just hope you're correct about the victim going into shock, but I still wonder whether, having tried and failed to stop the bloodflow, the three (+?) assailants fled the room, leaving the still conscious victim to her fate.
kevin
Marxian Analysis Lives!
Knox's "high social position" is not dependent on what happens to AK. And this will in all likelihood gain him sympathy from friends both socially & directly in business in the short term. After her conviction and the headlines disappearing from Google, the people he does business with outside of Macy's won't even know and won't care.
Now if you said to me, does this short circuit his chances of getting promoted to a NYC HQ job, I'd have to say well it doesn't help but then who knows what the kids of other Macy execs are up to, in the past, now or in the future. The American economy is still so huge and businesses are so determined to succeed that what we call "head-hunters" will only put a star next to his name as a CEO target BECAUSE his visibility in the biz world has been raised by this event.
While the business position he has attained has its social elements for sure, its his success on the job, i.e. the salary & perks he brings in, that gives him his ongoing social status. How he manages that salary & perks will determine his future "lifestyle". And that includes working successfully at other companies.
What would actually HELP him biz-wise, as the current wife has the social issues covered & is likely already saying "well, its all Edda's fault", would be to get his daughter to stop living in denial, and objectivily look at the evidence the ILE will be presenting her lawyers, and get her to agree to some kind of deal.
Cold-blooded but reality based, which is what prosecutors like to see in parents. When its SO obvious, it saves everyone time, effort & MONEY. Which what corproate headhunters and boards of directors ALSO like to see.
I can think of one recent Kansas case where the father, out of his own sense of guilt, made a few we'll fight public statements. The prosecutors, with all the OBVIOUS evidence to hand, let the defense lawyer and his fees work on the young woman and her father. As American prosecutors can cover their asses with tertiary charges, even if she had beaten murder one & two (very likely), she'd get convicted on manslaughter. Dad finally accepted the obvious & brought her around to manslaughter. And her father was just a senior librarian. Mr. Knox should get there much quicker and will urge a deal. Perhaps the prosectuors will decide on a trial just so they can get ALL the evidnece on record both for PR and to influence any future parole hearing.
And then there's a Harvard MBA serving at least 5 year also for manslaughter & also in Kansas who, because of his wife's BUSINESS contacts, will in likelihood be running his own home-based business withi 15 years.
Nah, murder can be great for business, and great business is great for creating your own social position wherever you are in the US.
@ Soobs, re: your comments ( "The first photo looks like the left shoe, not a shoeprint...the first photo looks to be an inverted photo of the right shoe as well")
Looks to me like the 2nd photo is of the left shoe, not the right. And the first is the inverted image of the left shoe.
Okay, I'm confused. If Amanda comes from a posh background, why did she have two jobs in the US and a job in Perugia? Was it because of the divorce? Perhaps her dad wasn't paying for the year abroad?
Everybody else probably knows, but I wonder where the kissing photo comes from. How could those two be so foolish as to kiss in public?
Robert...maybe you are right, I've no idea...but what you've just written makes me feel sick.
DAMIAN! Don't worry - if its my stuff, skip it til whenever. Just working out theories to a Larger Conclusion, re sequence of events, and context. I needed to bring stuff together that i knew was working around in the back of my head. Though I must say I'm wondering what coyote's take will be.
Bottomline, as Mr. Knox might put it: 1) Amanda instigated the event, 2) Amanda participated in the battery & rape, and 3) Amanda struck the fatal blow, and ILE has and will be producing evidence to support all three positions. So what's the best deal we can get to save the costs of a trial? Because if this was California, it would be a Death Penalty case due to the Aggravating Circumstances (death occurred during commission of at least one other crime). Getting prosecutors to accept only a manslaughter plea may be a real achievement!
Hope you teaching is going well.
KEVIN, yeah, I hope so too but I do think your scenario is 1b.
Todger said:
But not as smart as leaving the batteries in place/phones switched on and placing them in a place (such as RS's house) in order to create an electronic alibi for location.
But that would presuppose that the murder (or at least some crime) was premeditated - that they knew they'd need an alibi. Nothing about this crime says premeditation to me.
In the freaked-out aftermath of an unplanned killing, switching off their phones or taking out the batteries could well have seemed like the easiest step towards 'you can't prove we were there'. Isn't Sollecito a computer science major? That's the kind of thing that might well occur to someone who knows a lot about technology.
Isabella...the loving couple were kissing outside Meredith's house the day after they had raped her and locked her in her room to die.
Ah! AndyT Oooops, sorry that was your idea re "cowards in the kitchen." Again, I FEAR you are more correct.
And, Damian, sorry about that but if the ILE really wants to break through Amanda's denial via her Dad, this is the type of presentation they are going to have to make to him, right down to how many times they think Meredith was struck, what caused the bruises INSIDE her mouth. I think that's what you are referring to??
...no Robert it wasn't that. I'll get back to you...Sollecito's dad is on tv now...will fill you in later...
LILI - see above the various coyotewaits posts on how ignorant they all were re cell phone tracking. It has to do with how pings are pinpointed & how, ONCE YOU TURN IT ON, it starts pinging again right away, so locating your then present position. Not having it on you is the best way to commit a crime.
Can someone comment on the crime scene? It looks as tho Meredith's body is in the middle of the room and not on the bed (assuming the bed is to the left). Was she killed in bed or was she killed in the middle of the room?
I'm not sure where the idea that Amanda comes from "posh" circumstances comes from - I suppose too it depends on one's definition of "posh."
The photo I saw of the house she grew up in (sorry, can't remember where - it is a yellow house, smallish, ranch, from what I remember) looks far from posh. Is it because she went to a 12K per year school and went abroad? That doesn't necessarily mean posh, just perhaps that her mum took all of the child support and actually spent it on her child's education.
From the position of other evidence that can be seen in the picture (such as her underpants), which includes what appears to be LACK of blood on the bed/mattress, I'd say she was being held whilst laying on the floor (hard surface & more room for the crowd to be around her) and was struck there. This picture doesn't show the bloody finger prints smeared on the wall above the duvet. The NOTW pix does.
John: Thanks for your comment as a seattleite I was going to point out that from what I have seen in print and what I know of their neighborhood, your house can worth 1 million or it can be worth $275,000 which in US terms in a desirable place to live is not that much. I also remember a comment (can't locate it) which indicated the mother did work very hard to get her through the prep school. I have nice soldidly middle class friends up here who do the same thing. Posh? Hardly.
Sollecito's father has just been interviewed on Matrix, Canale 5. Here are some quickly translated quotes..
'...the sooner the truth comes out, the sooner I'll be able to hug my son'
'The day before the 'case', Rapphaele's flat was flooded, he had a problem with the sink. He was trying to mop it up, but Ammanda told him to leave it since she had a 'special mop' which would sort it in no time. She went to her house to get it. They cleared up the mess and when they went back the next day, to take the 'special mop' back, they found what they found.'
'I speak to him very regularly...I know what he thinks...what he does...it's true that I didn't know that he smoked marijuana and this worries me.'
P's lawyer is also on this programme...I'll be back...
error at end of last post
the smeared finger prints are on the wall at the head of the bed. The duvet covers the body, just being pulled off the bed and without care as the foot & lower part of the leg was exposedd.
i think P has been setup possibly with the collusion of 4th suspect, Mr X. If Mr X was the 'very strange man' Meredith told Sophie that Amanda brought to the house then he would have cleared A's room of all prints in an effort to remove traces of his having ever been there spending time in her room and the flat.
Has anyone thought of how crowded that small house was? 4 young women in the 3 bedrooms upstairs and 4 young men in the rooms on the ground floor? Did the 2 Italian girls share one of the 3 bedrooms? Why did the previous flatmates back out? A's blog: 'they are desperate for roommates because the two they had decided they wanted to disappear all of a sudden'
What was the history of that 'party' house and how many in Perugia knew it as such even before Amanda went to live there?
As for the mobile phones the only info the ILE can obtain from the time before the body was discovered is:
• the regular routine pings to cell masts transacted periodically or when phones moved from cell range to cell range when a mobile was turned on that would record yhe time a mobile being in a specifc mast area
• the time and traffic of text and calls recording the sender's and cell area sent from and the receiver's and cell area received
The tracing of a shut off phone without setting up the parameters beforehand is not possible. There will be nothing of this sort as none of the suspects were under suspicion of anything as far as we know. Last week a telecoms engineer told me thatshut off phones could be activated and turned into listening devices without the phone actually booting up. He qualified this by saying you needed is precise location beforehand to affect this snoop.
The actual facts about Patrick's phone are not clear.
• Did he get an entirely new phone as someone posted here?
• Did he change his number and get an new SIM?
• Or did he change his network provider 2 weeks ago and obtain a PUK number to port his old number to the new SIM supplied by his new network and this took over a week to transact between his old and new netwrok?
• Is it the same phone and SIM but with an altered IMEI number?
Thanks to damian, robert m, steve and all for such considered posts that explore the facts and motivations of this tragic situation
Giuseppe Sereni, P's lawyer has just been interviewed on Matrix. He says that P bought a new mobile phone on 12 October, because the other one broke. From this day until 2 November, P used only this phone. In the studio, the guests were clearly on P's side, but unfortunately, Sereni (as I had been forewarned) is a prime example of an incompetent, 'raccomandato' mason, one of many who run this town. When asked, very gently, about the IMEI, he got into a terrible mess. He started mumbling about ISMEI, IMEI, SIM, and clearly didn't really know what any of it meant. (You cats know more!) He was lost.
With regard to the 'see you later' text message, he said that A was responding to this from P; 'like sunday, there are few people here so there's no need for you to come into work.'
This message from P, was the only message he deleted. There seems to be no record of it anywhere and from what I gather, no possibility of every knowing for sure if these were the words
Thanks damian...
Re: "this message from P, was the only message he deleted."
I am not sure which message you are referring to, and who did the deleting.
Do you mean this was the only message P deleted - the message he sent to A?
If that's what they are saying, what a horrible coincidence for P. And how utterly ridiculous a story.
Yo Rob...yours are just the questions I wanted answering, and I thought they would be in this interview...you wouldn't believe this guy...beyond the pale...I've thought like you for a good few days now, but the thing that maybe goes agaisnt us is P's phone. ..and his lawyer. When asked if he contested what the judge had said about P's phone (changing IMEI 2 Nov) there was a long pause...you could almost see the dirty man's little brain panicing...in the end he opted for a yes!
Here is where the real cultural problems are going to kick in. How the hell am I going to explain to you guys about how things work here...you'll never believe me...'raccomandato' is where it starts, and I don't even know how to say it in english!!!
thanks damian, i am pretty sure that P is just caught up in this, of the three other suspects he was the only one settled in Perugia and had soooo much to lose by doing anything like this.
You seem to be saying a wide circle of your acquaintances that have known P for a long time have not seen anything at all to suggest such risk taking behavior.
i hope he can get his case across with the stratagems of the others lawyers likely to impede him...and his own highly connected lawyer
just like palermo and every other city with vested interests....i understand
..affirmative john.
...seattleite..you're a darlin
Okay, I'm confused. If Amanda comes from a posh background, why did she have two jobs in the US and a job in Perugia? Was it because of the divorce?
What were the jobs in the U.S.? It's pretty common for privileged kids to take part-time jobs like barista or barkeep even if they don't need the money -- it's a good way to meet people.
I don't know what you mean by "posh." I'd hazard a guess she was raised in the upper fourth of U.S. income, which I call privileged. But she probably wouldn't be considered particularly privileged compared to the average UW student.
If you're one of those people who thinks the only "privileged" Americans are the tiny minority of uber-wealthy ones like the Kennedys, and who thinks that anyone who isn't below the poverty line or a billionaire is equally middle-class with the same opportunities, then this discussion will probably get you riled up again.
ps I see even the prison's priest is in on the act. So much for the confidentiality and the church
Hello Robert M! Just wanted to comment on something you said. The smeared bloody finger marks happened on the wall directly above the bed, not above the duvet and that is why you cannot see it in the "crime scene" grainy black and white photo.
The wall above the bed cannot be seen in that B&W murder scene grainy picture as the angle is pointing away from it.
See for yourself in the 2nd photo on the following page:
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/
...nt_killer.shtml
P's lawyer doesn't know what IMEI is!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll be honest, neither did I till a few days ago, but I'm not defending the guy. He was interviewed on national tv, and he doesn't know what it is. He doesn't know if P changed it, if someone else changed it...how could he? he doesn't know what it is. Do you have lawyers like this???
Grrr... I keep coming here, looking for new info, maybe some kind of cohesive idea of motive, method, etc. but you guys (no names) are just trying to out-intellectualize each other, and some of you are so OBTUSE and WORDY you make my head hurt!!
I'm not stupid by anyone's definition, but if you don't know a freakin thing, why keep posting such presumptuous presumptions??
I think some of my own frustrations are the same as in the McCann bruhaha...language and culture variations.
Hell, why don't the smartest and most "CSI" of you go on over to Italy and break this case for us, and not waste all 750,000 comments rehashing the same crap?
LILI - see above the various coyotewaits posts on how ignorant they all were re cell phone tracking. It has to do with how pings are pinpointed & how, ONCE YOU TURN IT ON, it starts pinging again right away, so locating your then present position. Not having it on you is the best way to commit a crime.
Robert, I understand that (well, hey, more or less). My point is that, while not having your phone on you is clearly the best way to commit a crime, that wouldn't occur to you unless you were actually INTENDING to commit a crime - and I don't think any of these people were.
The best thing to do with your mobile after committing an unplanned crime seems less clear to me, and may have been less clear to them. In a moment like that, the mobiles wouldn't even occur to a lot of people (a guy over here was recently nailed for murdering his wife based largely on phone pings - never even occurred to him to leave his phone where it was supposed to be), but I think Sollecito's computer science degree would make him more likely to think of something like that. Whether he did the 'right' thing about it is a whole other question.
This is the house AK grew up in:
http://img147.imagevenue.com/
img...1_122_961lo.jpg
Its not what you what call posh.
damian has there been any resentment in the town about P taking over the bar?
Im wondering if he has gotten up somebody's nose in taking it over and would have cards stacked against him by this person(s) friends in the right places.....
sono stanco e incazzato..vado a letto. Domani parliamo di mafia e dei masoni, perche qui, controllano loro. stasera, lo vedo male, molto male. Buonanotte.
RS's father's comment on the "special mop" is laying the groundwork for what? That crime scene material was transfered from murder house to his house or that it transferred materials from RS house to murder scene. The father's non sequitar (was it a non sequitar in real time on the interview?) If they were taking the mop back to the house on the day of the discover of Ms body...did they have it with them? I thought there was some reportage that the mop and pail were missing from the murder house and found at RS house. Seems an odd statement unless he was aksed by an interviewer about it. In light of the shoeprints (forensic shoewear and shoeprint analysis has gotten very good in the last few years) is this just a reasonable doubt comment to try to get RS out of the slammer until trial?
yes a sad affair to be for all around, it is late, goodnight
This is the house AK grew up in:
http://img147.imagevenue.com/ img...1_122_961lo.jpg
Its not what you what call posh.
Um... I'll bet that for a lot of us on here, that's a pretty nice house. Certainly big. Much of the analysis, of course, depends on the neighborhood it's in.
The fact that it's not a mansion doesn't mean she isn't in that minority of privileged Americans I was discussing earlier -- the ones who make up the majority of students at OK schools like U of W. For kids from those backgrounds, it's veering toward slacker territory to major in liberal arts at a place like UW and spend a year in Europe at a university that makes money catering to foreigners. Those expensive private high schools like Knox's funnel their average students into schools like UW.
When I say "schools like UW," I'm probably thinking mainly of UCLA and other UCs.
That's the back entrance of the house, right? It appears to open onto an alley, like that King of the Hill house. The front may look a lot nicer.
Hmmmm...it looks like the front of the house to me, Holly. Garage door, driveway, mail box and house number - plus of course the road.
Damian:
Grazie per tutte le informazioni. Disporre di un buon sonno.
This is the house AK grew up in . . . Its not what you [would] call posh.
I would call it white trash. Is that a red sports car parked in the lawn?
If you had address of Amanda's house, would be simple to find out worth. Just go to Zillow.com. Ranch house does not sound posh, but I guess if it had view of water it could be expensive.
Holly: Though we come from this from a little different angle I largely agree with all your posts. But this is such a solidly normal American middle-class house (I will bet money the upper floor to the left is an addition on a little ranch house)which you can find from Bellingham to Irvine. My objection to all the press pottraits, which I believe you have already pointed out in your posts are spurious, is that this girl was not a special, genius-like, hyper-creative, american princess. She comes from comfortable but hardly posh circumstances, displayed no special talent for creative writing (not the same as creative lying), was attending an okay school in a liberal arts program and in lieu of letting friends know her literary loves (Chekhov? Shakespeare? Raymond Carver?) on her internet pages listed a bunch of Disney movies. The only people I watch Finding Nemo with are my little nieces and nephews and yes we tear up everytime. Some people may find this comment snobbish. I can accept that.
Hmmmm...it looks like the front of the house to me, Holly. Garage door, driveway, mail box and house number - plus of course the road.
The alley would also be paved, Random Guy. It's a system that was popular in the U.S. for a while -- have alleys behind the houses for car parking, garbage pickup, mail delivery. The garages open onto the alleys.
It appears there's a covered porch, and a fence bisecting the yard. More reasons I thought we were viewing the back.
This is not an uncommon layout in the country. If it is the front of the house, there could be a very large backyard. A lot of the price of the house is the lot size. There are some nice houses in outlying areas that don't have fancy fronts or standout architecture, but are still expensive due to size, lot size, and school districts.
Holly, honestly, I wasn't riled about about the posh thing. I was just curious. Honest. You are funny!
Anyway, in my experience rich kids in Seattle do not work as baristas but do volunteer stuff in South America and stuff like that. Colleges look for that kind of stuff on resumes.
We are not wealthy, but my own son didn't work during high school and doesn't work during the school year in college because we want him to have that time for studying. We worked our way through college and it was hard.
In any case, Seattle Prep is not the most elite prep school, where you find the truly wealthy. That would be Lakeside and to a lesser extent U. Prep.
The UW has its own extension school in the Piazza di Popolo in Rome. Friends of mine have gone there and just loved it. It's small. I wonder why Amanda chose Perugia.
But this is such a solidly normal American middle-class house (I will bet money the upper floor to the left is an addition on a little ranch house)which you can find from Bellingham to Irvine.
I don't know about Bellingham, but in Irvine you couldn't get that for under a mil.
Yet it's true, the Irvine kids who live in those $1 million ranch homes and are funneled easily into schools like UCLA and do European party semesters do usually insist that they are merely average, middle-class people.
I agree with the rest of your assessment -- comfortable compared to the average American, but not really "posh." Certainly no debutante, but no hardworking genius either.
We are not wealthy, but my own son didn't work during high school and doesn't work during the school year in college because we want him to have that time for studying. We worked our way through college and it was hard.
In any case, Seattle Prep is not the most elite prep school, where you find the truly wealthy. That would be Lakeside and to a lesser extent U. Prep.
The UW has its own extension school in the Piazza di Popolo in Rome. Friends of mine have gone there and just loved it.
Well, well. And look who was calling me elitist. I accept your olive branch.
I just saw the Amanda house photo. A posh house would have a three-car garage. That looks like a one car with a carport added on. Don't know the neighborhood but it has no sidewalks. The house looks like maybe three bedrooms and a couple of baths.
A rich person would have a gigantic house with a view of the water if not oceanfront. Either lots of acreage or a tall McMansion covering every spec of the lot. The houses next to it would be just as impressive.
In short a nice comfortable small house well-kept house in a safe neighborhood, but definitely not posh. However, her father might have a nicer house if he's a Macy's exec. Maybe she lived there part of the time?
I agree that she is no fairy princess, ala the British tabloids. I guess her boyfriend was a rich guy though, so perhaps that was an attraction.
She seems like a girl with a fondness for alcohol, a girl way over her head.
P.S. She's only 20, no? Not old enough to get into US bars. Imagine the freedom.
Amanda's home was a normal suburban home and you can find one just like it in every major city in the U.S. In Atlanta such a home might go for 3-400,000.00, in Knoxville, TN it might go for half that amount.
If I understand the British definition of "posh," the answer is NO, she didn't come from a posh background. I'd say her private school background would be a better indication of her coming from means than that home, anyway... but in general, the way Britons define "posh" doesn't seem to fit Amanda. Middle to slightly upper middle class.
Caveat lector: I come from a very working-class, blue collar background. White trash cracker, actually. So my view on these issues may be very different from others posting here.
Steve Huff
LOL Holly. I find your assessments quite accurate and a nice antidote to the tabloid presentation. My East Coast friends especially the dreaded Yalies would find all this hairsplitting a hotly debated contest in socioeconomic theory between the Wal-mart vs. Costco camps. They consider and perhaps rightly so, the West Coast a very young place historically. Not that I agree but I can see their point on a daily basis. I was Irvine this summer on business and yeah those little ranch houses on the Newport side cost a ton. I do think these are important points you make though, because so much of the information press-wise on AK is perversely filtered through this all-american girl garbage.
Holly, no this is the front entrance and its a nice, usual middle-class house suitable for a family.
But decide for yourself. Here are some more pictures:
http://img193.imagevenue.com/
img...e_122_248lo.jpg
Nothing posh.
This is my first comment after reading for a few days. That's a good sized house, if she lives in West Seattle, which I have heard. My brother lives in a much smaller house with a tiny yard in West Seattle, and it's worth about $450K.
Her mom is a teacher, and it looks like step-dad is in IT, and from the looks of his myspace page, he has a good-sized boat.... Seattle Prep is a decent school, not posh, but definitely out of the range for a lot of people. Her dad (Macy's exec) most likely helped pay for it, but it's not automatic in divorces here. Going to Seattle Prep, UW would have been easy enough to get into for her.
I applied to and was accepted into UW pretty easily after high school (although I went elsewhere.)
Despite what they say about her Catholic high school and morning prayers, our local Jesuit high school is not known for pious students. Our Jesuit prep-school churned out some pretty big delinquents- known for cocaine as much alcohol and pot at the public schools.
Lili wrote at 11:12:07 5:32 PM
"But that would presuppose that the murder (or at least some crime) was premeditated - that they knew they'd need an alibi. Nothing about this crime says premeditation to me.
In the freaked-out aftermath of an unplanned killing, switching off their phones or taking out the batteries could well have seemed like the easiest step towards 'you can't prove we were there'."
Agreed. That was exactly my point. If this was premeditated homicide or even rape, none of the evidence points to the planning required for such.
That is the conclusion the investigating judge came to and the conclusion I would have (did) also come to. This was a sexual game/play/assignation gone out of control.
The rest of the evidence points only to panic, confusion, desperate attempts at cover-up and total cognitive dissonance & disorientation in the perpetrators, especially AK.
Remember, AK is only 20, RS only 23 or 24; at such age cognition has yet to mature in a human being to the point of modeling logical propositional behavior (internally) and relating such to mistaken beliefs and/or ethical beliefs.
However, PL at age 37-44 would certainly be able to do so. Therefore I like the "how & what" scenarios played out here by kevin, andy T and especially Robert M. That PL got the f--- out of there when the situation got out of hand.
Later I will post why I do not think, given the evidence "reported" so far by the press (as I understand it), that a fourth suspect was there at the time of the stabbing, but instead arrived later to try and clean up the mess.
However, it still could remain that the "PL" was really a NAX instead, but as someone stated if there were more it would have been like Grand Central Station with very little room and way to many people and witnesses to what should have been just a little sexual "adventure" game.
Emily Booth | 11.12.07 - 5:57 pm
"Can someone comment on the crime scene? It looks as tho Meredith's body is in the middle of the room and not on the bed (assuming the bed is to the left). Was she killed in bed or was she killed in the middle of the room?"
She was on the floor the entire time she was being restrained. She was stabbed while on the floor. Study the photograph carefully. The bed is not removed from being adjacent to the wall, which would have been required to totally restrain her, especially her head and neck. The body lies in a position where one can be at kneeling anteriorly to her head, another can be at her left "on her back" side and a third can be above and/or between her legs.
Question to All:
Has more evidence been reported that is not mere speculation based on so called leaks, by the press, that a Mr X was at the scene other than a lone finger print on supposedly MK's pillow case does not match the three current detained suspects; and the feces found in the non-flushed toilet.
First of all the feces has to be tested by DNA typing and comparison and it is not logical that that has been completed as yet given only ten days since the actual crime.
Both of these conditions can logically be explained away without having to place a fifth person in MK's bedroom.
From the NOTW article reference URL posted by Random Guy from London:
"But they also reveal the terror of her final moments as a maniac slashed her throat before hiding her semi-naked body under her duvet."
What is wrong with this statement? When you figure that out, you will understand why you cannot just read and believe press reporting.
"It emerged that they also found a SECOND phone near her body as they try to trace an Italian boy she had been seeing and a missing key to her bedroom door."
What is most interesting about this second statement? Two phones next to her body? Then who's phones were found in the pensioner's garden? But there is even greater interest here if this is a fact, two phones an Italian guy/bf. More later. Please I am not implying another suspect!
Read journalists' reports and writings with an eye for emotional bias distorting actual facts, and inability or lack of time and willingness to verify and confirm what they state as facts.
Then take most of the reporting as little more than a few grains of salt. Journalists are not in a court of law subject to perjury or mis-statements challenged by cross examination. They are in the business of writing reports that will get the attention of readers so that the publications obtain the highest circulation or television ratings as possible.
damian | 11.12.07 - 7:49 pm | wrote:
"I'll be honest, neither did I till a few days ago, but I'm not defending the guy. He was interviewed on national tv, and he doesn't know what it is. He doesn't know if P changed it, if someone else changed it...how could he? he doesn't know what it is. Do you have lawyers like this???"
In the USA yes we do damian. Though they are usually only the poorly paid public defenders assigned when the defendant does not have the resources to hire his/her legal representation.
In the latter case, yes the attorney would certainly have the staff resources to know what a IMEI is.
However!!!! I am flabbergasted. In the USA an attorney, even a PD would never submit to a interview with television or news reporter. IF the attorneys wanted to counter LE public statements they would hold a controlled press conference, the defendant probably would not be in attendance, and the attorneys would deflect any questions they were not able to answer. In fact they most likely would not take any questions at all.
I feel sorry for LP and his receiving poor legal representation. However, my conclusion so far is that LP is not innocent. (Note I did not say he was guilty).
damian | 11.12.07 - 7:57 pm wrote:
"sono stanco e incazzato..vado a letto. Domani parliamo di mafia e dei masoni, perche qui, controllano loro. stasera, lo vedo male, molto male. Buonanotte."
damian: Is this mostly translating incorrectly what I think you wrote?:
"I am tired and gotten angry.. I go to read. Tomorrow we talk about mafia and of the masoni, perche here, monitor their. tonight, I see it badly, a lot badly. Goodnight"?
Thank you also from me, Damian. I am also so very grateful for your observations and interest in communicating them with others on this blog.
What about the reports that PL is the grandson of Patrice Lumumba? This was according to the Argentine bar owner, but it's rumored that he recently hit his wife with a ceramic bottle. Too bad for PL that his most outspoken supporter isn't exactly a standout citizen.
rob | 11.12.07 - 6:29 am wrote:
"location detection signaling' only works very close to a mast and must be instigated by the carrier signaling to a specified IMEI. A turned off phone would not appear on a ping log. the periodic pings of a mobile by a radio or TV can be heard, a turned off one does not ping."
I am sorry Rob, but you are incorrect in the statement above. Even if the cell phone is turned off, it continues to signal the transmitter/receivers in cell towers, all due respect to your cellular engineer friend.
Rather than another treatise on cell phone technology I will just offer to everyone here a news video on the technology.
This will blow your minds even further about cell phone tracking. But it will also explain to you how ILE were able to "wire tap" AK's phone for the supposed statement she made in a call to RS on supposedly 05 NOV. In fact, she could have been standing next to him just talking and not sending a voice call over the cellular network.
But since the cat is already out of the bag, here's what you need to know when planning your next crime. I.e., leave your cell at home with the television on, and use two-way radios.
http://www.health-sky.com/html/t...turned-
off.html
interesting excerpts from:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle424024.ece
"It was claimed that an elderly woman who lives nearby had reported receiving a telephone threat from a mystery woman.
When officers arrived to investigate they found a mobile phone in the pensioner
’s garden. A trace on the phone revealed Meredith’s name and address."
Im sure this has been covered here but - did AK and RS call police "about a broken window" and coincidentally postal police showed up for the reason of her phone? Is AK the mystery woman who called her? And they 'planted' the phone in the garden? I wonder if the 'threatening woman' clued her/the police into the phone in the garden. Did they get impatient and call police themselves? Whats to make of 2 sets of police simultaneously heading to their house for different reasons? Theres a lot going on here.
Sorry, hope this URL works.
http://www.health-sky.com/html/t...turned-
off.html
Thanks Robert & Coyotewaits for your comments on the crime scene photo. It is very grainy. In my search for a better photo, I stumbled across this from 11/04 @ uk.reuters.com:
"Following the autopsy, Lalli and police returned to the Perugia apartment where officers discovered Kercher's body two days ago after forcing down the door to her bedroom. She lived in a shared flat, and a friend described a horrific crime scene.
"I saw the blood ... there was a lot," Raffaele Sollecito, who is dating one of Kercher's flatmates, told Reuters by telephone."
This was reported in the beginning, when burglary as a possible motive was floating around. How ironic RS would be contacted by a reporter as a "friend".
h0lym0n | 11.12.07 - 11:45 pm was wondering about an article published by the Sun:
h0lym0n:
That article was published on 03 NOV just less than 48 hours from the now determined time of the crime. (Note at the top it says 13 Nov 2007 but they are reporting from an article previous published. See the date 03 Nov 2007 in the byline).
Since they are reporting from only hearsay there are very few if any facts known. Police at that point had not even made any statements.
You should discount it almost entirely, except for MK father's statements and use the later reports based on the investigating judge's written report filed on 09 Nov 2007 to the public record and the evidence now released to the press since 09 Nov.
Haloscan is great at quickly loading comments. What we could use is a separate file of all of the pertinent news articles and photos!
Holymon, it's my understanding that AK and RS phoned the police approx 20 minutes after being stumbled upon by the police investigating the neighbor's threat. I remember reading it in one of the earlier news articles linked above.
It would be interesting to find out if AK was the caller and what she said.
Holymon, here is the link:
http://tinyurl.com/2bnqbg
Emily Booth | 11.13.07 - 12:06 am |
"Haloscan is great at quickly loading comments. What we could use is a separate file of all of the pertinent news articles and photos!"
I agree that it would be great to have a separate log for the URL's to photos and documents.
However, we are readers of Steve Huff's blog CrimeBlog.US where he so graciously allows comments from readers to continue for sometime.
We must all respect that this is his blog and not an interactive chat room or bulletin board. I too wish it was such.
Thanks Emily for the URL to the Telegraph's excellent summary article of the investigating judges report and conclusions as to justification to hold the three suspects inn detention.
Notice also in this summary article there is no corroborating comments that the woman received a threatening phone call. It appears that she had just reported finding two cell phones in her garden.
That is why I asked the question above: what is this about two cell phones be found next to the body of MK. I believe the later report in the press is just sloppy writing and reporting and is, in fact, incorrect.
Robert M. | 11.12.07 - 2:01 pm | wrote in 3 parts his hypothesis of the what & how it happened. Plus a hypothesis on the why of AK's behavior.
Personal Note to Mr. Robert M.
I quite frankly agree with your hypothesis of the 'what' and 'how it' happened. You are quite a learned and erudite person most likely in psychiatry, psychology and mythology.
Based on the forensics disclosed so far, if factual, I also would be led to a similar conclusion that AK wielded the pen knife during the fatal stab, though not necessarily the earlier cutting/poking. I can detail my similar hypothesis based on the forensics, if requested, in a later post.
However, we must carefully note that we have a great deal more information on the character traits of AK than we do on either of the other two suspects. Thus, we need to temper are hypotheses until we learn so much more, if ever, from a trial or confession.
Although I find your Jungian and symbolism analysis quite interesting I am not trained in such analysis. My training is in criminal behavioral profiling (including psychological profiling) and neuroscience. In other words my specialty is in the 'what happened' and by what kind of person rather than the 'why' it happened. But I have always been fascinated by the "why's".
However, your analysis clearly shows how it would fit my own "profiling" analysis of AK personal behavior as characterized by impulsive behavioral traits without developed cortical propositional inhibitions.
I was very delighted in reading your three part summary. Please continue your contributions.
P.S. Did I perhaps not first meet you on Steve's CrimeBlog.US on the Nailah Franklin, Chicago, IL USA case.
After watching the performance of mr sollecito and P's lawyer last night, I came to the conclusion that there is something extremely fishy going on. I feel stupid and naive. I hope to god I am wrong. (and I'm agnostic)
Here there are no rules and nothing is fair. I naively thought that with this case, because the victim is english, and all the english press are following it closely, there would not be the usual 'italian job'.
P's lawyer is in with the right here in Perugia. (cultural note...the right want to deport 20 000 foreigners..the deportations have already started..please see above for current politcal situation)He is corrupt, and backed by the right, he defends right-wing politicians and gets them off. He doesn't know what IMEI is.
Sollecito's father is an important man. He is also a 'legal doctor'.(sorry..I don't know the correct english terminology) His daughter is a Carabinieri.
The results of the forensic analysis will be announced Thursday here. (This being Italy, let's say Friday) However, initial reports in the papers this morning say that the blood on R's pants (sorry, underwear) belongs to A. That there is no blood on R's trainers.
I think R called his sister and his daddy, both experts, and asked for help in covering his tracks...please do not underestimate the power of these people.
Someone asked earlier, I think it was you Seattleite, whether R's father volunteered the info about the mop or was asked about it...the former. The presenter was very sympathetic towards him, being a 'father' too.
Thanks Coyote, as ever, for getting us back on track...
...the 'initial reports' also say R's knife is not compatible with the murder weapon, since half of it is serrated. This is all in 'La Repubblica'. I smell a big fat stinky rat.
...I'm coming round to your way of thinking Coyote, that P was in someway involved.
People tell me P, (like most other bar owners here) is into coke. What do you think to this; A tells P she's got some coke and to come round to hers. P pops out, snorts a couple of lines, and returns to his bar.
Where this falls apart however is that surely, by now, P would have come clean to the police.
The Mirror reports today:
"Knox is believed to be on suicide watch in jail and has been talking to the chaplain about the afterlife.
And it has emerged she emailed Grazia magazine after the murder.
In a reply to an interview request, she said: 'I'd love to tell you many things about Meredith's story but the time is not right'.
'When the murderer is caught, I'd be more than willing to speak my piece. My top priority is to help police find the murderer who broke into my house and killed my friend.'"
Don't think she will commit suicide after seeing her parents again.
damian | 11.13.07 - 2:46 am wrote:
"Sollecito's father is an important man. He is also a 'legal doctor'.(sorry..I don't know the correct english terminology)"
Perhaps you are refering to what they call in USA a "medical expert witness".
It would not stand to reason that such an expert who specialized in expert testimony to rape case would be an urologist. But in such a case in USA prosecutors would blow out urologists' testimony in interest of the defense for a expert gynecologist's testimony.
Big difference in their expertise. The former is in urinary diseases of the urinary tract and urogenital system (such as STD's, etc.) and the latter in the entire female genital system. In USA it is the latter experts who testify in rape trials.
However, I sense your are really commenting about his possible influence in the political legal system, i.e., he is known and he knows the system and people in it.
deepen | 11.13.07 - 3:39 am wrote:
""Knox is believed to be on suicide watch in jail and has been talking to the chaplain about the afterlife."
This certainly does not surprise me.
and:
"'When the murderer is caught, I'd be more than willing to speak my piece. My top priority is to help police find the murderer who broke into my house and killed my friend.'"
In USA we call this kind of statement the "O.J. Simpson cry of innocence" plea.
...with redard to my previous posts, in particular, about P's lawyer's political ties. What I was insinuating, I've since been reassured, is, even here, not in the least plausible. Sorry...scratch it...but only that. He is only incompetent and 'raccomandato'. NB however the Sollecito family comments...
Coyote, Mr Sollecito said himself that he is a medical expert witness. (thanx!)He also said that, as part of his work, he has seen and examined many corpses. He went on to say that he has seen photos of Meredith's corpse and that the fatal wound on her neck is not compatible with his son's knife...Welcome to Italy my friend.
P.S...you are right in saying that Mr Sollecito is a urologist.
damian | 11.13.07 - 3:16 am | wrote:
"People tell me P, (like most other bar owners here) is into coke. What do you think to this; A tells P she's got some coke and to come round to hers. P pops out, snorts a couple of lines, and returns to his bar.
"Where this falls apart however is that surely, by now, P would have come clean to the police."
I was wondering when someone would finally bring up the harder drugs being consumed in this Italian community subject. There was mention of syringes and marijuana growing in the garden. That is the only reference I have heard to more impulsiveness behavioral drugs. Hashish cools you out, mellows one. Cocaine stimulates, makes you hyper, especially your cerebral cortex and amygdala (center of emotions).
Not sure, Damian why this leads you to state "surely P would have come clean by now"? Help me connect the dots in your thinking.
...it's not what you know, but who you know that counts.
damian | 11.13.07 - 3:52 am |
"...with redard to my previous posts, in particular, about P's lawyer's political ties. What I was insinuating, I've since been reassured, is, even here, not in the least plausible. Sorry...scratch it...but only that. He is only incompetent and 'raccomandato'. NB however the Sollecito family comments..."
Damian, does not 'raccomandato' translate to recommended in English. Could raccomandato in your case mean that PL's lawyer is assigned to LP by the state because he, LP, cannot afford one? Or does it mean he was recommended to LP by someone else?
raccomandato
If you want any half-decent job in Italy, you must be 'recommended' by someone in a postion of authority. This is not a meritocracy.
I've got to go...will get back to you about joining the dots in my thinking...if I can.
damian | 11.13.07 - 4:00 am |
"Coyote, Mr Sollecito said himself that he is a medical expert witness. (thanx!)He also said that, as part of his work, he has seen and examined many corpses. He went on to say that he has seen photos of Meredith's corpse and that the fatal wound on her neck is not compatible with his son's knife...Welcome to Italy my friend."
Damian: Now you are making me laugh. I would have loved to seen this TV interview. Any chance it will be uploaded to YouTube or an Italian equivalent of uTube or even the stations own website. Though I know it will be in Italian, of which I speak practically none at all, I wish to just watch his body langauge and facial expressions and his eyes. Besides I'll get a friend over to translate for me if it is available. Let me know.
However, based on your descriptions of the interviews it sounds like PS's father is conducting what we call here "damage control". Pictures would not show the internal wound or depth of the wound, nor whether the blade was serrated or not, but in the latter skin lesions might show double side blade or serrated blade. Unless of course he was viewing microscopic close pictures of the autopsy dissection of MK's neck to determine exactly which blood vessels and veins had been pierced.
But here is my point. Who says the knife used was the one RS carried in his pocket. His father alone admitted his son had a collection of knives, just like he had a collection of guns. This Dr. Dude really has to be far right wing and close to a basket case of a doctor.
As I said here in USA we call that :damage control". Counter the bad publicity as fast as you can. Gain the publics' sympathy by stating your innocent and blame everyone else.
Sorry, do not think I wish to come to Italy to study Italian politics. I am well aware of the reason law changes, even by the EU on now being able to deport immigrants, and of course the murder/beating of the Naval Officer's wife and the government bulldozing of 'roma' squatters outside Rome.
I have to depart myself. Will try to be back later USA time after 19:00 hours. Sorry realize that is Italy time 02:00 hours next day.
You should be aware that the authorities in Italy still hold a grudge against americans and their intervention on Italian territory in relationship with the Achille Lauro case.
I hope that your embassy can bring her out or they will properly blame the murder on her.
http://www.health-sky.com/html/t...turned-
off.html
this is hysterical
we will know the results of pathologies at the end of the week and if there is evidence of previous hard drug use in body samples from the suspects
i doubt there will be
sex magic anyone? killing occurred on all souls day
mmm i wonder.....
cell phones are passive (like sleep on a computer) when switched off and send no pings. they can however be 'woken' (like incoming network traffic can wake a sleeping computer) by sending a targeted activation command from a transmitter very close to the phone so it then can receive further instructions (like un-mute mic)
damian you are burning the candle at both ends! hope you get some refreshing sleep at some point soon
keep smiling, grin and bear it everybody
Gunter Hallowgreen | Homepage | 11.13.07 - 5:02 am |
wrote:
"You should be aware that the authorities in Italy still hold a grudge against americans and their intervention on Italian territory in relationship with the Achille Lauro case.
I hope that your embassy can bring her out or they will properly blame the murder on her."
Mr. Hallowgreen:
You are a representative/founder of an interesting but controversial organization of which you have many more skeptics than supporters.
Be that as it may, Mr. Hallowgreen, I really wonder why you bring up the case of the Achille Lauro which was almost a generation and a quarter century ago and involved PLO terroists, not college students.
Listen, more than half the world and probably 80% of Europeans seem to declare their hate/dislike of and bear a grudge against Americans (assuming you mean U.S. citizens). So be what it is, opinions based on U.S. government political actions not people. The Italian authorities probably bear a grudge against American for many things since the AL incident (in which the Italian governmental authorities bargained with murderous terrorists and with the Egyptian government for their, the terrorists', freedom in international waters), like the rendition cases from 2002-2004, even though those same Italian authorities approved and help carry out the renditions, or at least turned a blind eye to them.
I doubt very much that the U.S. Embassy is even interested in this case unless the young woman's parents lean hard on their elected Washington state representatives and senators.
My point Mr. Hallowgreen, is your statement about the AL case is quite irrelevant to the subject of this blog thread and offers nothing more than a potentially inflammatory dialogue to begin in this decent blog and comments.
Should you continue to post anymore comments of this irrelevant nature and in this manner, I shall merely request Mr. Huff to block you from access to his blog and delete your comments. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
Hey Rob:
I doubt that any samples of urine from the suspects (if such samples are immediately taken upon detention) on the 06 Nov/07 Nov (not sure the exact date of arrests) would show anything regarding cocaine or MDMA, they leave the body in less than 48 hours. Hashish, of course can show residue for up to three weeks, but they already admitted to smoking marijuana.
So I agree they won't find anything there. And of course, toxicity tests on the body of MK apparently showed negative as far as I have noted.
Glad you enjoyed "the cat's out of bag" video. Big brother Bushie is a watching us.
Rob:
I will stand corrected in a compromise with you about cell phone location broadcasting from a off cell phone. Here's an interesting case where it was necessary to boost the base tower broadcast power to wake up and locate the cell phone.
http://www.cellbanter.com/archiv...hp/t-
88653.html
My apologies for any confusion. Just want the posters here to understand enough about the cellular technology so they can understand what the policia are stating [or so they know how to plan there next crime ]
Here's another laughing video on cell phone technology, in this case where the FBI'ers are replaced my the bad guys.
Enjoy.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/clips...ones-
271445.php
And finally here is a page describing exactly the technology required to be deployed in, at least, the USA but I am sure also in the EU.
It's here brother and sisters, uTube and uCell.
http://www.safekids.com/2007/05/...eveal-location/
RS has given an interview and it's a good read and may give information about the faeces found in the toilet:
In interviews conducted from prison with Italian newspapers, Mr Sollecito has given details of his relationship with Ms Knox - and said that he never wants to see her again.
"If I am here it's her fault above all" he said, answering questions through his lawyer. "I am conscious that contrary to what I thought, our paths have diverged profoundly".
Mr Sollecito said that he had been attracted to Ms Knox from the moment they met a classical music concert in early October. "I liked her face, her way of walking and laughing, above all her sweet nature". He said they had gone to bed the first evening, and she had moved in with him while continuing to keep her room at the cottage. "We made love every evening," he said.
He said that Ms Knox was "the second girl to enter my life. I liked to cuddle her, give her security. It made me feel important". He had noticed "nothing strange" in her behaviour. "I studied, so did she, and she went to work for Patrick (Lumumba) at the pub." He said he did not know Mr Lumumba well, and had only seen him when he went to pick Ms Knox up at the bar, "Le Chic", after work and take her back to his flat.
Mr Sollecito said he had met Ms Kercher when Ms Knox returned to the cottage they shared to fetch clothes. He confirmed that the two women were on bad terms, and had argued over domestic matters. Ms Kercher had "shouted at Amanda" several times over her "bathroom habits", accusing Ms Knox of failing to flush the toilet.
The rest of the article can be read at:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2862541.ece
It also reports that:
The Turin daily La Stampa said that several hairs had been found in fingers of Ms Kercher's left hand "and now the laboratory examinations will tells us whether these bloody hairs belong to whoever killed her".
My apologies to all. Back to the subject at hand.
Could anybody state when, if even yet, AK's father arrived in Perugia. It seems her mother departed immediately and arrived ASAP. Funny about the father.
All that I am implying is that upon the first contact I received that my daughter was involved in a situation like this, which of course, I can't possibly imagine [she does happen to reside in Umeå, Sweden at the University] I would be on the next available private NetJets to Stocholm-Umeå with my attorneys and a Swedish interperter, even if I had to pay for the other empty seats. I would not wait for a commercial flight even though I am not living a "posh" life style.
Anyway, what's the update on the father of AK? I can get the impression that unless he was perhaps elsewhere and out of the country, why didn't he leave immediately. Indicates maybe he didn't have all that deep of emotional/loving relationship with his daughter other than perhaps child support.
Re: Robert M's comment before about the business analytical approach to such a situation by Mr. Knox. However, I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he went to work like immediately with Washington State Congressional representatives, the U.S.State Department and U.S. lawyers and that this needed his immediate presence here, first.
Given Damian's nightmare scenario of RS being saved through political machinations it seems to me the evidence is overwhelming on AK's participation, and she would be best advised to confess completely, pleading mercy from the court, so that at least RS and PL, if really there also, will have a more difficult time beating the rap.
The more time that passes, the more RS father can conduct "damage control" both publicly with press interviews and conferences and behind the scenes with political manipulations (obviously I am implying corruption in the Italian legal system, but this is just my assumption from Damian's opinion). And with that time it will be even easier to lean on prosecutors that such a confession is again an outright lie, and that AK did it with some unknown Mr. X and Mr. Y and Ms. Z who have now disappeared or fled the country.
At this point, even before the forensic evidence is returned (I cannot believe DNA samples could possibly be processed in the less than two weeks time unless there was some kind of high priority on this case and the labs are right there at say the University of Perugia, which doesn't sound like to me is a science oriented University. (Damian please comment on where the labs are and how big is this town, Perugia)), I can not see why AK might try to protect anyone other than herself.
Lastly, I did not interpret the remarks that AK's mother supposedly said that her daughter said that "I shouldn't have involved Patrick in this" as a recantation of an attempt to frame him.
Rather I interpreted AK's supposedly statement to mean "neither I or PL were there, because I wasn
Rather I interpreted AK's supposedly statement to mean "neither I or PL were there, because I wasn't there so how could I possibly know who was".
Obviously, AK could not have done this on her own. So will the real perpetrators please come forward (through the evidence)or through a confessed statement as to the truth.
Remember, some people will go to their grave denying their guilt even when found guilty by the preponderance of evidence. They need that denial to maintain their own illusion of sanity.
It is in a way reassuring to notice that despite being a "totally international level homicide" (each person involved is from a different country) the elements of the crime are the same of one of the most "local" Agatha Christie's cases. The times, the witnesses, the evidence of fingerprints and footprints, the menacious call to the poor neighbour (that makes me think anout "The murder at the vicarage") and, last but not the least, the lies of people
coyotewaits wrote:
" I would have loved to seen this TV interview. Any chance it will be uploaded to YouTube or an Italian equivalent of uTube or even the stations own website. Though I know it will be in Italian, of which I speak practically none at all, I wish to just watch his body langauge and facial expressions and his eyes. Besides I'll get a friend over to translate for me if it is available. Let me know."
There are two whole shows online with lots and lots of interviews and clips.
Although I don't really understand what they are saying ... its still awesome.
You will need some time watching.
Show from 9th November: http://www.matrix.mediaset.it/
vi...eogallery.shtml
Show from 12th November (with the interview of RSs dad): http://www.matrix.mediaset.it/
vi...eogallery.shtml
Enjoy.
Quote run4264:
'Holly, no this is the front entrance and its a nice, usual middle-class house suitable for a family.
But decide for yourself. Here are some more pictures:
http://img193.imagevenue.com/
img...e_122_248lo.jpg
Nothing posh.'
Where did you get them from?
Don't know if its already been said but Messaggero reports that the police has checked the tapes of two other cameras, one in front of 'Le Chic' and one on Piazza Grimana next to the Basketball court.
According to Messaggero they indeed showed that AK und PL met on Piazza Grimana on the night of the murder, contrary to PLs statement.
class a drugs used in the past will be determinable from HAIR samples. so a hair that is say grown out 12 months will show the periods when such drugs were ingested.
these are the drug tests im taking about not the urine tests.
Sadly, I think that police do not have concrete trialproof evidence. The case might never be solved without a full confession. This could be a disgrace fro Meredith's family and Italy all. But it wouldn't be the first time that an horrendous crime ends up without convictions.
The hair test is only good for determining usage at some time in the past down to about a month or so because hair grows at different rates in different persons. But such tests are not credible to pin point to a specific day or near day time. They would be worthless for forensics looking to accurately time stamp them.
That is why only urine tests and or blood samples can be used for say athletes testing for recent drug ingestion or injection usage.
Thanks.
Are there any others here besides Damian who speak both Italian and English and could translate to written English a summary of some of the highlights in these videos with the lawyers from the Matrix Media videos which links were provided by deepen just a few posts above?
The highlights would need be statements that we have not seen or read in the English press articles displayed a prior here.
Thanks.
The rest of the evidence points only to panic, confusion, desperate attempts at cover-up and total cognitive dissonance & disorientation in the perpetrators, especially AK.
Coyote, I absolutely agree with you - about this and about the fact that Lumumba is at a completely different stage of cognitive development from the other two, and wouldn't be expected to react in the same way.
I'm trying to help translate Damien's 'raccomandato' - it's sort of like 'connected', but not at all in a Mafia way. Like he knows the right people and that's how he's getting places. Friends in high places.
Italy is...different. I'd half-forgotten what it's like till this case started bringing it back to me.
coyote you really are coming across as smug and authoritarian.
damian says there are allegations that P took cocaine being a bar owner. I doubt it but hey, maybe he did.
if he says he never has taken coke and they find it in his hair form anytime in the past....get it?
i would appreciate it if you would back off a little and let others thoughts breathe and minds think around here
And one other thing, on a cultural note: IMO, Sollecito's statement that Knox is only the second girl he's ever been with is highly unusual. Going both by my own and my friends' experiences when we lived in Italy, and by my Italian cousin (same age as Sollecito) and his friends, in Italy the focus is overwhelmingly on romantic relationships. Opposite-sex platonic friends are rare: if you spend time alone with someone of the opposite sex, it's because you're in a relationship. My cousin and his friends are in and out of relationships all the time - they're never, ever single for more than a week or two - to them, that would be weird.
It's hard to explain just how complete this focus on the romantic relationship is - and how unusual it seems to hear a 23-year-old Italian guy say he's only ever gone out with two women. Maybe he's always been too studious to have time for relationships (although then what's he doing messing around with Knox the week before the difesa della tesi? That's a BIG ordeal), or maybe he's socially awkward, or maybe the first relationship was a very long one, or... It just seems really unusual to me. If I'm wrong, Damien will correct me!
I have to say I am absolutely stunned and incredulous that attorneys in criminal investigation would go on television interview shows with live audiences as shown here. Although I do notice from the few I sampled there is no policia investigator interviewees (or am I incorrect in that assumption)?
Do these attorneys get paid for being on these shows?
Wow, this beats anything Oprah, Jerry Springer or Larry King could give us in the USA. Hurrah, for Italian television. They know how to generate eyeballs for the commercials. Do they also have partially nude weather women? Just kidding of course.
i believe the coroner was the bloke fiddling with the knife on the TV.
Randomguy: Thanks for the link to The Times article.
I think, as we all expected, Sollecito is now really going for Knox, distancing himself, and adding in "revelations" about Knox's turbulent relationship with the victim (stemming from latter complaining about former not flushing the toilet.. oh my god! - Is Solecito implying that Knox must have been at the crime scene, because once again she forgot to flush away the faeces...???? Until now I'd thought that the faeces had been planted there...)
Solecito, Jr. is obviously now under the strict direction of his urologist father.
Like Damian (Damien) and Lili I'm also a little concerned about what effect Italy's "raccomandato" system might have on progress in this case. Of course, Lili's right, in northern Italy it's not the mafia. Damian implied (I think it Italian) that the masons control things (justice?) in Perugia...
To coyotewaits
Attorneys defending suspects do go on some tv talks in Italy, on those cases where there's a lot of rumour on media
I don't know if they get paid for that, don't think so (too naive?)
Policia(?) investigator interviews, if you mean judge interrogations, are strictly private of course
As well as scintific police examinations are (partially carried out in Rome for this case)
deepen: thanks for letting us know about the cameras catching AK and PL meeting up! That is an extremely crucial bit of evidence.
Andy T: You're welcome. I must confess that I am surprised Raffaele is distancing himself. I expected him and Amanda to defiantly protect each other but since they have only been together 2 weeks, the relationship cannot be strong.
I love how the story went from "they met at a bar two weeks earlier and slept together from the first night" to "they met at a classical music concert in early October." At least the "we had sex immediately" is consistent, why do you think that could be?!
I also find it bizarre that he would publicly talk about "making love to her every night." Honestly I don't think I've ever heard of a murder suspect giving an interview about how often he banged his girlfriend.
Perhaps our Italian friends can explain the social implications...
Another person confirming Amanda had arguments about not flushing the toilet - which backs up Raffaele's claims that Meredith and Amanda would argue:
"I remember Amanda also kept going on about how she found the body, it was as if she was proud to have been the one who found it," she said.
"I just remember thinking at the time in the police station Amanda's behaviour was very strange, it was as if she wasn't bothered at all. Her behaviour also struck other friends who were there."
Detailing how a group assembled in he police waiting room on the evening of Friday, November 2, she said: "When I went into the waiting room she (Amanda) was talking at the top of her voice in English to everyone there.
"She described how she had come back to the apartment at around 11am. She said that she had found the front door open and that she had gone into the bathroom that she and Meredith shared.
"She was saying how she had seen blood on the floor – I remember her saying that it was menstrual blood. She also said she had taken a shower.
"I remember her also saying that the toilet was full of shit. She kept saying the word shit over and over again. This behaviour seemed a little strange to me."
She told how Miss Kercher had argued with Knox because she never flushed the toilet.
More at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
its all explained above, young italians focus almost exclusively on relationships. plus you are commenting on rumour - further weakened strength of proof by translation, sometimes even english-italian-english.
its like watering down wine or in this case spirits...the day of the deed taken into consideration
remember journos love sex stories - they SELL! reading some of these posts you can see people's obsession with the sex elements of this case.
IMHO the international social dynamics and interpersonal dynamics - so linked in a gregarious culture like the italians have - are the interesting things about all this.
especially in Perugia with its separate foreign student 'romance' trap and all that the mix and influx brings financially and socially.
also having been watching the current EU rumblings of a pan-nation LE agency i find following the manner in which ILE conducts itself under this heavy scrutiny very salient to how the move to this F.B.I.style EU force rolls jerkily on in fits and starts
We have so much information coming out about AK, and so little about RS. I get the feeling that there is more to this guy than meets the eye. He strikes me as very weird. For instance, there is this:
"A telephone call between Meredith murder suspect Raffaele Sollecito and his father revealed the 23-year-old carries a knife.
In the conversation intercepted by police on November 5 - the day before he was held - Sollecito's father Franco says: "Raffaele don't walk about with a knife. If the police find it on you, who knows what they may think?"
His son replies: "Well, they have already questioned me and they didn't even find it on me, those stupid policemen."
Sollecito has carried a knife since the age of 13. In an interview from his jail cell, he said: "I have a collection of knives and swords."
AdvertisementSollecito said his relationship with Amanda Knox was "intense" and described himself as "an anxious person" who smoked cannabis "on every day off and every time I need to".
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top...89520-20095572/
And is it common practice in Italy for accused murderers to give jail cell interviews? That would be unheard of in the U.S....
its funny how you Yanks think so highly of what the tabloid press in the UK puts out.
THINK NATIONAL ENQUIRER OR BETTER YET GLOBE....
this is not news as you would like to think it is.
the modern newspaper/pamphlet (ie tabloid) was defined and refined by the reporting of the whitechapel murders in the late 19th century......some of you may be scratching your heads going 'what?'
its
jumping jack. jack flash. the slasher. jack the ripper.
its all sell sell sell
Thanks for the link Random Guy. If she really said and acted like that at the police station ... it would indeed be very strange.
Although IMO its obvious that she liked/likes the attention she got/is getting. As the report says:
"She said: 'Amanda's behaviour was always a little strange - even before Friday 2 November she seemed to be the extravagant type.'
'I remember the first time we met we were in a restaurant having something to eat when all of a sudden she got up and started singing at the top of her voice – it was very strange and out of place.'"
AK is in a situation with enormous power. Its up to her to reveal things, accuse people, to just think of a different story or even talk bullshit. The police wants to know the truth. This somehow puts her in a convenient situation.
After seeing the youtube video I wonder how she talked to people in her everyday life. I imagine is must have been just like her blog is written, self-focused and kind of nervous.
This could be a sign of insecurity.
americans remember you are following a very different legal process in a very different society to yours. italy was never a british colony and has none of the remnants of british custom that you have.
the magna carta set out the original british 'trial by one's peers' which over hundreds of years extended to the common man rather than just peers of the realm ie. privileged lords.
you still got that in the states. an italian judge will try this murder case without a jury.
and britian is stuttering towards the removal of the right to a trial by jury as we sit.
lordy, lordy! duck and cover!
.
The trial will take place without a jury - really? I am not familiar with how the judicial system works in Italy.
Everything that Sollecito said in his interview is intended to lead the general public to the conclusion that this is not a rapist. First he said the Knox was only his second girlfriend. This leads to the conclusion that he is sexually shy and inexperienced. He is playing on the general assumption that a rapist is typically rather sexually experienced and so therefore it wasn’t him. Also he emphasizes that he likes to cuddle with Knox, this shows he is needy and sensitive – and therefore not a rapist. He also says he pounded Knox every night there were together. This is intended to invite the public to the conclusion that he was pretty much all sexed out and was hardly in the need of raping anyone.
Well his story does sound rehearsed and calculated, that's for sure.
From the animal world (via google search):
"Cats mark their territory by spraying urine and leaving faeces at visually conspicuous sites." [Btw, this is called 'middening']
"Ross gets a monkey named Marcel, who shows his displeasure by leaving faeces in inappropriate places."
"A poorly trained dog dragging its owner along the footpath, urinating on posts and trees, leaving faeces behind for others to deal with or step in."
Maybe the above can tell us something about the psychology of Knox.
Deepen...nice one for the videos, 'priceless'.(I wouldn't have been able to do that...i don't have much experience with computers, mobile phone technology, court cases etc. am i getting out of my depth, or is this getting a bit far out?) I'll make myself a nice espresso and have a go at translating Sereni's interview. It really is something else.
I want to clarify that I have no idea if P uses coke or not. There are various rumours,stories, suspicions, bullshit flying around. In fact, after reading lots of contradictory things today,(the last week) I feel like we are all pissing in the wind till friday.
'This could be a disgrace for Meredith's family and Italy all.' Giuseppe. I want to help out my old buddy. Something bad has happened here; 'disgrazia' in the sense disaster...tragedy, is what Giuseppe meant.
Lilli (and others) 'raccomandato'... you got it...cheers! But the word accurately describes millions of Italians...it's ALL about this. For background info on current state of the 'bel paese' checkout www.beppegrillo.it
It's the most visited blog in Italy (or maybe Europe!?) He was in the european parliament just today, denouncing the Italian government's thieving.
I'll get the coffee on...
I'm new here. I'm italian and I've been following this from the start. Just wanted to correct a previous poster: in Italy murder cases are tried before a "Corte d'Assise" and there is actually a jury composed of two professional judges and six popular jury members (i.e. ordinary people).
Ciao Eric, thanks for that. Is that just if it goes to Appeal, or will the first trial also have a jury?
Both the first trial and the appeal (before a "Corte d'Assise d'Appello") have a jury. The third and last degree trial have no jury.
Also, I don't know if it's been posted before but www.repubblica.it you can see a still image of AK taken by the CCTV when she was entering the apartment.
Deepen's second link, part 7
Sorry, please put in the right word; PMpublic prosecutor(?), Procura the organ for which he works.
M..Mentana, the presenter.
J..journalist corriere della sera
S..Sereni. P's lawyer
A..Augusto de Megni. friend of P (check him out!)
After a few technical problems...
M. What are the pertinent elements you'd like to introduce?
S. P is innocent. I saw him today. he said 'justice will triumph in the end. Why are they calling me a monster? I've done nothing. I have faith in justice. Who is in the right must fear no man. I miss my family and son'
M.Did he say anything about the accusations today?
S. Very good, let's talk about the substance (facts). The ordinaza (judges report) talked about a call from A to P. A said this and she lies all the time. What are these elements, this evidemce agaisnt my client? People talk about..my colleague will explain more in a moment, a mobile phone and this cell which is said to have picked up a signal from this. Well, with regards to the mobile phone (Beep Beep) ..whats happening?
M. That'll be a mobile..
(I'm not joking)
In the photo of her entering the apartment - on the right there is a shadow of someone in a hat , it doesnt look like her shadow. Click between the 1-2 photos
http://www.repubblica.it/2006/05...-perugia/
2.html
I've just found the "attach image" button, so here's the CCTV picture from Repubblica (click on the "Homepage" link below).
Ive been reading your entries for a couple of days and appreciate the sharing of information and thoughtful analysis. But no matter how much I read, I am competely at a loss as to how these people from unremarkable backgrounds, could descend in such a sadistic manner on someone that they knew. Amanda seems to me to be a sociopath, and of all these people, her actions are the least surprise. But this Patric and Raffaelle, how could they participate in such a ruthless manner in an attack on a girl that they knew and liked?! If they had their violent way with her, and she had lived, wouldnt they be in jail for sexual assault? What were they thinking? How did they get to the point that they covered her with cuts and bruises? I am baffled.
S. P bought that phone because the previous phone broke and so he left it at home. He just took out the sim card, which has it's own ISMEI and he put it in the new phone which he bought from a shop in Perugia. He used only this phone before and after 2 nov.
M. However, it is believed that he deleted just one message, the crucial one for the prosecution?
S. Who said that?
J.The PM in her convalidation of the arrests.
S. There you go.
M. Well?
S. On this aspect, I'd like to make a point. I asked the pm specifically to trace this message.
M. Sorry, you don't believe that it was deleted?
S. no, but i know for sure that the message...
M I believe that the Procura has evidence of the message being sent from both A and P's phone.
S. Let's clarify a point here. The message P sent...
Just an observation. Everybody, judge at first, says this is a sexual driven crime. We have a 38 yrs old african guy, newly wed, with a baby, and described as quiet, well-integrated in Perugia social life, musician. We have a 24 yrs old italian guy, with a not so long sexual experience, shy, sensitive, rich and with the passion for knives&swords. We have a 20 yrs old american girl, definitely sexually active (so much!), on vacation (università per stranieri in Perugia is for learning with a lot of fun), with a dangerous mix of big ego and superficiality (read harry potter in her first day of internship in Bunderstag, then quit, and so on).
Where is suspicion?
A mind, an arm, a fuck'd fellow, maybe some marginal witnesses
Just a supposition, of course
M. the famous see you later
S. no. P told me the message said 'Hi A, like Sunday, it's relly quiet so you don't need to come into work.' I want this to be clear. This is the real message. The answer in Italian 'ci vediamo piu tardi' see you later in the sense bye.. In this message, noone talks about an appointment at Piazza Grimana. I ask for this message to be traced.
m.Have you met the prof?
S. No. We found out where he had been staying and told the PM. We don't know what he said.
M to J. Is there a particular weak point for P?
J. The message 'don't come to work' can't ever be known if the phone wasnt tapped, so it'll be hard to find out the actual words, unless it wasn't deleted from A's phone. The only doubt is the change of phones after.
M. Why did he want to change his phone the morning after?
It seems RF has defintely the best defensive strategy. Both PL and AK lie, the latter at any time. Neverthless her attorney advised her to keep silence for now, she still wants to be at the centre of attention (and attraction). When a big ego isn't backed by carisma and intelligence, you simply look idiot
Her cuteness won't help her any longer, so sorry
S. Look (polite in italian) dottore Mentana, there was no change of phone. It'd be a good idea to read carefully the judge's report. It was the same phone bought on 12th and used until 2nov. No change of phone.
J. Two changes
S. There's a code ISMEI, which is rapportato to the sim. There was no use of another phone. There's no doubt about this.
A. I believe to have read something different.
J. In ANSA, they wrote that the IMEI code identifies the phone, not the sim. In the pms convalidation of the arrests it says that until 2 nov he used a sim card in a phone with an identity IMEI. From the 2 nov he used the same sim in another phone identifying with a different IMEI code. So he changed the object/thing/phone, not the sim.
S. That's not true.
Adding a couple thoughts:
It was reported that LE said that AK & RS had turned off their cells phones from, I think, around 21:00 hours 01 Nov until 10:00 hours 02 Nov. This of course could be technically determined from the cellular carriers records, so it definitely could be fact.
Speculating then: Why would RS, given that he had remained at home all evening after AK left his flat sometime between 20:30 - 21:00 hrs 01 Nov, surfing the net and smoking "420" [slang in the USA for the code police use when they arrest a person for possession of cannabis], turn off his cell phone. Especially given that AK might text message or call him from work to come and get her or from any other friends. Why not just put in his charger while he was surfing. As Spock might say "not logical".
Furthermore, it was reported that the supposed call from his father at approximately 23:00 hrs 01 Nov on his land-line telephone was not supported by the land-line telco's records. And why would his father even call his son on the land-line, when he knew his son had a cell phone and would reach him for sure especially on a holiday when his son would most likely not be studying or at home.
And it should be noted that the statements being made by RS now from jail thorough his lawyer are definitely of the damage control variety, managed and probably drafted by his attorney for public sympathy and for focus on the "real killer", AK.
Do any of the Italian speakers here at CrimeBlog.US, who have seen the videos posted by deepen,
http://www.matrix.mediaset.it/
vi...eogallery.shtml
see where in the interview with RS's lawyers the interviewer might have asked some of these type of questions?
In addition, it appeared to me that there were three lawyers in the interview with RS's lawyers, though only one appeared to speak (I did not watch the video in its entirety). If this is true, then it does appear that RS's resources are of the "deep pockets" [american slang] variety.
My hypothesis remains, all three of these suspects were there at AK + MK's flat.
I can't seem to make anything from those 2 CCTV images. I guess you would have to watch the video to get a clearer vision. Certainly doesn't look "clear cut" from those images.
Many thanks to Steno and Eric and others for articulating how the Italian legal system works in criminal prosecutions.
J. the phone number remained the same.
M. So you contest this aspect of the ordinanza?
S. It's natural that I contest this aspect. There was no change of mobile phone.
M. If your version is right, this is a big mistake by the Procura. Why are you so sure there was no change of phone?
S.Because it's written in that act connected to the pm's report, that from12th he used that number with that with that code IS...IMSI.
J. No.
S. It's a code of the sim.
M. IMEI?
J. But...
S. IMEI is the code for the phone, the object, and ISMI and the code IMSI is the code for the sim.
This is verbatim, make of it what you will.
To coyotewaits
RS has a board of 3 attorneys. In the TV interview they don't say anything particular, just report that neither the footprint nor the knife can be considered proof of any evidence.
And that he has a short memory 'cause of smoking 4 joints, that night.
This is stupid.
Ok, he's covering lots of things, let's wait till technicians say something about his usage of laptop, that night (as he sad). He's already been denied in the supposed land-line call to his father. As well as when he said to have called police (US 911) before the arriving of the postal "police". False. Maybe he'll be the one to tell a partial truth, sooner or later.
Don't think Amanda will ever help investigators, neither herself
bye (I go to sleep)
As well as the video af A and P at piazza Grimana, there are also reports of new doubts about the time of death. Apparently, police will talk to Merediths friend again. The video of A going home is also being 'played down' for its lack of clarity..but i trust almost nothing of what i read now. Aren't you lot the same?
RS's lawyers weren't interviewed on matrix, just his dad. I can confirm what I said earlier about him claiming to be an expert, seeing the photos, saying his son's knife wasnt compatable (it seemed to me..) He also said he'd been to Rome, where they are doing the forensic analysis. He wasnt asked about the phone call landline etc but there was a question about R smoking. He said that this was the thing that made him most angry, the fact that he didnt know and that maybe he was partly to blame for this.
sorry...i haven't watched it again. Steno is right, they were there and and and just said a bit. It was mainly the father doing the defending.
coyotewaits - thanks for your dedicated reading of my 3-parter. They go a bit, but thats what it takes to get a full argument/theory presented. I acknowledge we are working with more material re AK, but then she created more to work with & its her catalyzing role in this that the ILE sensed quickly & that we do too. There's also the On-Line angle, almost all her's, which is why I originally suggested this case to Steve. Plus of course there's the Sex, as in no sex, no crime. Even there though the sex angle is central to Amanda's personality and not the others as we know them. Amanda in amore-oriented-Italy without any family/special constraints was a gunpowder barrel near a hot fire. SOMETHING was going to happen & perhaps it might have happened badly only to her. Instead it was to Meredith.
As to JUNG: When I first read John Douglas' first book, every page screamed Jung & the Shadow to me. I would recommend you look into it with Memories first. I believe it would INFORM your work, as your command of the TECHNICAL informs our discussions here. I return to it again & again in considering why good people do bad things, as opposed to the people of the lie. And I should pay more attention to it even in my own life.
I am sending a note to steve re your other questions & points, but as I'm yankee & work on ancestry stuff online, maybe you'll arrive first.
And to every one: THANKS! to all with the researched posts, germane links & non-repititious questions. As that means we are all reading & THINKING so well about this event. This is just a great, serious discussion among ADULTS. Thanks.
Ps to damian. I'm still curious as to just what I wrote made you "sick" -- in your soul??????
sorry robert, i'd forgotten about that. Ive just looked back and it seemed i misunderstood anyway. I thought you were saying the murder would be good for A's dad's business, but i had misunderstood what you were saying.
There is a personality disorder defined in the DSM IV [Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders] known as Pathological Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I won't go into any details as to the characteristics and personality traits that define this condition, many of you will already know, and of course, you can always google it for specifics.
Suffice it to say, the descriptions reported about AK's behavior, her video's, writings, etc. would lead one to say that she fits all the classic symptoms of behavior to fit this disorder. I would usually give one the benefit of the doubt in saying this about a gregarious and socially out going person such as AK, (since we all have some normal narcissism in our personalities to a greater or lesser degree) except the posts of one here tonight linking us to the articles on the friends/acquaintances of AK at the police station waiting room on the night of 02 Nov and their descriptions and quotes of what AK said and how she was saying it and behaving. That closed any possible 'benefit of the doubt' assumptions for me.
I also think that Kevin, AndyT and RobertM are thinking the same thing. Whats hear from you three.
What I would care to add, and do so very carefully, is that this character mental disorder can in not so rare cases be acutely modified in a person with "borderline symptoms". In this case what 'borderline' means is the asymptomatic behavior of crossing over temporarily into state of psychosis. This is often not even recognized by others close to subject until such symptoms of it happening are described to the family/friends/acquaintances, when then they [the others] suddenly exclaim, OMG yes! I've seen her/him do that or be like that before.
Again without going into details, if in fact AK could be borderline (an expert would have to actually observe her in person for sometime to be able to notice this), then she is quite capable of going into a near or complete rage of jealously, rage and violent outburst in behavior. Followed often in such cases, unfortunately, by a partial to complete blackout and suppression of the psychotic episode.
Though the memory of such psychotic episode will be contained in the brain as any other memory, the denial that is characteristic of NPD will suppress it without encountering specific mental stress and dissonance and or without lengthly psychiatric therapy.
Given this type of crime, and the evidence gather to date, in the US States criminal justice system any judge would be ordering a psychological exam by a court appointed psychologist and/or psychiatrist of at least AK and RS. (In RS's case the collection of knives and swords, the comic books on the slaying and sexual assault on women, evidence yet to possibly be found on his website surfing habits.
In Italy, in these kind of criminal investigations, is this kind of examination de rigeur?
RobertM:
Thanks so much for your comments. I am not familiar with John Douglas' writings but am going to 'amazon' the reviews after this post.
I am, however, quite familiar with M. Scott Peck's writings, especially his "People of the Lie" which I often recommend when I give seminars. (I am retired from my profession but still do consultations). Unfortunately we lost Mr. Peck a few years ago at all to young of an age.
I have certainly enjoyed the posts and thoughts of everyone. I'm no expert - but what if P met A to deliver drugs? I'm also thinking more hard core than pot - or even cocaine.... more like a hallucinagenic. Due to his age & status in the community (if accurate) I still have a hard time with P being guilty of more than that.
RobertM.
OMG! myself! 'The' John Douglas. That didn't even click in my aging brain when you mentioned 'Memories'.
Thanks to eric for mentioning the CCTV.
holymon wrote:
"In the photo of her entering the apartment - on the right there is a shadow of someone in a hat , it doesnt look like her shadow. Click between the 1-2 photos"
Yes, true, but its a different CCTV image.
I edited the pic and added some explanation to it, from what I see there.
It actually shows someone leaving (or entering???) the parking garage not someone entering the appartment.
See here: http://img131.imagevenue.com/
img...a_122_539lo.jpg
My questions:
- is the person entering or leaving the parking garage?
- where does the person come from?
(look at the car, between the two pictures there is only a very small movement; it seems she suddenly appears)
- suppose its AK, why is she coming from inside the garage? She owned no car and only few minutes before she was on Piazza Grimana.
- suppose its AK, there must be a witness, the driver in the car?
- the time is allegedly 8:43 pm (20:43). Look how bright it is outside. Looks like a sunny day?
I've also added a pic where I think this CCTV image actually comes from:
http://img126.imagevenue.com/
img...y_122_698lo.jpg
I would say this is bad evidence, at least not clear cut.
Thanks very much to damian for translating some parts of the interview!
deepen | 11.13.07 - 9:17 pm
I agree deepen. For what purpose is she in the garage entrance unless that is some kind of short cut to her house.
I was of the impression that her house with the 4 young men on floor 1 and her 3 roommates on floor 2 was the house in the foreground from across the roadway from the other larger assembly of town-homes above the garage.
Am I mistaken in my assumption of where she lived?
Texas wrote:
"I'm no expert - but what if P met A to deliver drugs?"
This would make sense.
She asks him for stuff on 1st of Nov. He writes her a text message which says something like : 'lets meet at piazza grimana, over there are the drug dealers, I am able to get the drugs for you because I'm well-known'
Later he deletes the message. She writes him back: 'See you later'. At 20:38 the two are together at Piazza Grimana when he hands the drugs over. At 20:43 is captured by a CCTV camera going home.
This would explain why PL has something to hide but still feels not guilty.
This would also comply with the testimony of Romano Mero:
"According to Italian media reports, Romano Mero, a Swiss professor visiting Perugia at the time, has told police that he left his hotel to eat a pizza at 8.30 on the evening of November 1. By 9pm he was at Le Chic, and he says that Patrick was behind the bar. Professor Mero, however, had reportedly earlier told police by phone that he was at the pub for two hours, from 8pm to 10pm.
The change in his testimony is crucial, since police say a signal trace on a mobile phone owned by Mr Lumumba was recorded in the area of the cottage at 8.38pm."
Also I was of the assumption that the so called video of her entering the house and a supposed Mr. X walking away were from a CCTV camera focused on the car parking area between the aforementioned foreground house and the roadway.
Damian: I think you said you visited the house site. If so, did you see any CCTV camera mounted to cover the house/parking area of the house in the foreground? Am I all wet in my assumptions here?
If there is no camera there at the house, and only camera[s] across the roadway on the larger group of buildings I would not be sure either that such CCTV camera could clearly show a person's identity from that distance to the house. But first I need to know, is that isolated house in the foreground AK's flat?
Yes coyotewaits, its the isolated house in the foreground.
deepen | 11.09.07 - 8:28 pm | posted.
"For those interested here is the birds eye view of the "horror house" from Live Maps:"
http://maps.live.com/default.asp...25785&
encType=1
This was satellite mapping picture you posted for us, deepen. I guess I just assumed it was the isolated house across from the roadway. In this view above the assemblage of buildings across the roadway.
deepen - you said "- where does the person come from? (look at the car, between the two pictures there is only a very small movement; it seems she suddenly appears)"
I think this person was probably on the walkway (outside the railing) out of vision, and then she cuts toward the left to go into the garage. The car probably saw her and stopped to let her pass.
Of course with that said I've no idea how closely these grabs occur in actual time. Just guessing.
deepen | 11.13.07 - 9:57 pm |
"Yes coyotewaits, its the isolated house in the foreground."
Thanks very much for the confirmation and, of course, for the excellent satellite images.
To make it even more clear, I've made another one. I think its possible that she has been captured by some camera - I just don't know where the cameras are.
I don't think the CCTV image above is the one mentioned in the police report.
But this would be a possibility:
http://img105.imagevenue.com/
img...g_122_626lo.jpg
I hope its understandable.
Yes John, this would be possible, haven't thought of that.
I just don't know why she would walk IN?
There is another factor in at least the reportage of this crime about why the Perugia LE [PLE] have not sought issuance of and executed search warrants for the complete premises of LeChic and for PL's home. Perhaps they have and the press has just overlooked or under reported this in favor of keeping the focus on the salaciousness of this crime.
If anyone has heard that they have not done so, please comment here. This would be a egregious error on their part and begin to make me worry that the PLE is not all that competent investigating a crime of this nature, not atypical of an LE of a community of only 150k population.
Supporting my thought, why did it take them until yesterday to begin searching RS's premises when they arrested him on 08 Nov.
On the other hand, isolated reports about receipts at LeChic and searching for a sweaty (sweat) shirt of PL's have been mentioned, which might mean warrants and searches were conducted at those locations.
In my opinion, PL switching out his sim card doesn't really implicate him. Many foreigners in Perugia have more than one phone and switch sim cards in and out of their phones for different purposes. For instance, I had two phones and two sim cards (one American and one Italian) while I was there, so that I could easily call home or call locally.
Also, the text message "see you later" from AK does not indicate that AK and PL had plans to meet up later. Often in Italian, people say "see you later" just like we do in English... It usually means good-bye.
On top of that, I just noticed that PL has to pass fairly close to AK's apartment on his way to work because Perugia is one big hill, and to get from his home to work, he would probably walk around, not up and over. So, the cell phone ping could have occurred while he was heading to work, or anywhere on that side of town.
Given the absence of his DNA in the apartment, I'd put money on PL having nothing to do with it. Just another one of AK's lies...
Deepen: Thanks for your photoshop work on the camera placement images with sat photos. I agree that CCTV above can't be the one in the report...if it is they are really pushing it. Forensics due in the next 48 will clarify some things and muddy others I am sure. I found an odd little video which is one You Tube...some type of travelog segment for a lifestyle show which features PL in several parts and I guess is in Perugia. Since it is in Italian I have no clue but PL seems older, more reticent, sort of uncomfortable...not what I imagined. Don't know if my vibe to him was due to knowing some of the particulars of the case but I was a little creeped out. AK is clearly a DSM poster child. RS: I feel like I have a sense of him but I don't know...I feel like he thought he hit the jackpot when he landed AK but if he is the nervouse type, AKs erratic path must have given him the willies.
Here is the website of the parking garage. Theres also a small photo of entrance.
Unfortunately its too small to see any cameras on it.
http://www.sipaonline.it/canale....anale.asp?
id=22
deepen | 11.13.07 - 10:31 pm | wrote:
"To make it even more clear, I've made another one. I think its possible that she has been captured by some camera - I just don't know where the cameras are. I don't think the CCTV image above is the one mentioned in the police report. But this would be a possibility: I hope its understandable."
deepen: You are hired! Superlative analytical work. Please report to the PLE main office.
ariel | 11.13.07 - 10:43 pm posted:
"Given the absence of his DNA in the apartment, I'd put money on PL having nothing to do with it. Just another one of AK's lies..."
I could not agree more, Ariel. The evidence reported so far, although direct and not circumstantial, is not enough to convict either PL or RS. Their DNA on MK's body, or in her room, bathrooms, is going to be required, or if none, PLE is going to need a lot more direct evidence.
Furthermore, if they find DNA of unknown persons that do not match the young man MK saw from downstairs, and any other person with access to MK's room like her g/f's, I doubt they will even be able to retain them in detention.
And even if AK gives RS and PL up in a new confession, at this point defense attorney's would tear her confession apart as delusional lying. Her confession now will not cut it and in their interviews yesterday they are already positioning their defense in this way.
Her only advantage now to confession, would be for mercy from the court and then only, if RS and PL go down with her because of overwhelming DNA evidence. Don't under rate the possibility of inconclusive DNA results. It is almost certain when it is discovered and can be typed, but it not always can be discovered.
I'll also note that they found some strands of hair on MK's left hand that also had blood on them. And the journalists' wrote that those strands could finally determine who the killer was.
That would be lucky and I hope so. But since the hair was bloody, my guess it is her own neck length hair, when she took the last death stab and blood started flowing she reached to clutch her wound and grasped some of her own hair as her hand clutched her throat in desperate agony.
deepen - Thank you for the graphic work and the various links.
As far as AK heading into the garage, I agree that is curious - after looking at your graphic, I wonder if she liked to walk through the garage instead of along the road, for some reason...habit, protection, who knows...and even, if the murder was premeditated, it provided more cover than the open road.
One last post for all.
I believe Steve Huff or his software closes these comment threads when they reach 1000 posts. The counter is now close to 800. When it gets to this level it starts taking a long time for the whole thread to load on a users computer if they refresh or post to it.
Hopefully, if that happens Steve will choose to roll over the blog for more comments on this crime, but we will all lose this thread. You can always email him to request he do so. He's a great guy, but extremely busy and limited in server space he has to pay for. So approach him with those thoughts in mind.
In the meantime, for those most interested I would suggest beginning to save the entire HTML page[s] comments thread to your own hard drives, and possibly some of the news' media sources URL's, provided here by this great group of posters, to your bookmarks.
My special and sincere thank you and appreciation to all of you for your great posts and comments and for making this the best blog thread I have yet seen on Steve's CrimeBlog.US and any other crime blog. I really hope it is still here when, according to Damian who resides in Perugia, the forensics tests (and hopefully also the DNA results) will be disclosed this coming Thursday or Friday.
Giuseppe,
Mi dispiace, ma non parlo bene l'italiano. Potreste aiutarli a tradurre una certa scrittura relativa a questa storia? Per favore, rispondere a questa pagina.
Molte grazie,
Steve
This site might help those who need translation:
http://translation.langenberg.com/
Not sure if this has already been posted, but there is an old video of P on YouTube...looks like it's from 2003.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9_UKQ_tCP4g
coyotewaits: There is no way that the Italian government would let one of their own countrymen fall for this crime.
The reason is:
The turism industry are suffering after heavy price increases following their money convertion from Lire to Euro. It caused turists to stay away from Italy.
So they are under huge pressure and have to show the world that such a terrible crime could not have been done by one of their citizens. Such a crime has to be done by an outsider.
Second of all the European Parliament have been critizing the treatment of people from Africa seeking Italy as their new home. So blaming the colored guy would cause the European Union to monitor them in a way they would not like.
That is where Knox comes in handy. She would be the perfect murder - a stranger who is coming from a country known for having almost 10 times the share of their population serving time in prison for violent crimes. They can hold her for a long time. They will try all they can to break her. I don't think that she will actually serve long time if she is convicted. What is important for the authorities is that this terrible crime has been committed by a foreginger - true or false.
Hi, I'm from Italy, first of all, sorry for my poor english. I read your comments and hypothesis about this terrible murder, I like them. because my english, usually I read only, but I have to take part to this discussion to correct to some erroneous information about Italy and Italian system of justice, most of those information from damian,maybe because he is young :
the public minister leading the investigation..her parents who were both killed 1 month later in a car accident (false) they both died, not killed, in a car accident;
A controversial law was immediately passed in which the Italian government could deport any foreigner deemed to be a risk to society.(true)...The right are calling for up to 20 000 romanians to be deported (false);...the deportations have already started (false!!!!)
another little pecularity in Italy is that if you committed a crime more than ten years ago, you can't be prosecuted (absolutely false in homicide case!!!). Berlusconi changed the laws to save the co-founder of his political party, who is mafioso...(unfortunately true).
95% of italians,(or certainly here in Perugia), when they see an Afican, for example, think that they are either a prostitute or a drug-dealer. Unfortunately, more often than not, they are right. (false)
There aren't any black doctors, lawyers, teachers, politicians etc in Italy (false).
I heard that A's lawyer claimed that her first interview with the police is inadmissable because she didn't have an interpreter. My girlfriend tells me this is never usually a problem here though...(false, no police interview without the assistance of a lawyer can be used in a trial,in this case it was a pre-investigation).
A month ago, a man was arrested for cultivating marijuana. He was held at Capanne prison (where A, R and P are now) for two days and on 14th October died in his cell from injuries received during a brutal police beating. (not sure, the case is under investigation).
'raccomandato'...the word accurately describes millions of Italians (false)
La Repubblica. (as reputable as Italian newspapers get) well, la Repubblica, il Corriere, la Stampa ecc... have some reputation, in Italy "tabloids" don't exist.
Well our legal system is different from usa system. for example, Magistratura (judges and public prosecutors) are free and indipendet from political system. they have a self-government organ and noone can impede them to investigate, so our corrupt politicians are often found out. I hope they'll discover the truth about this terrible murder.
Here is a glowing praise for Amanda Knox from her Professor at the University of Foreigners:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher214.xml
It's quite bizarre how she has this one image of a hard working, squeaky clean, model student who is stable yet has another complete opposite image where a different group of people make her out to be wild, brash, arrogant and out of control.
Randomguy, what you're saying reminds me of the first comment on this thread (by Katk) noting how Knox's behaviour seemed "bizarrely out of character."
Remember though that all of us change our behaviour according to situation and company. Just like Knox we all have complex personalities with various "ego states."
But one of Knox's ego states leaves her totally out of control, incapable of empathy, compassion, and remorse and unable to assess consequences. Fortunately, such an ego state is relatively rare.
As to what causes it...
Knox's instability would seem to be linked closely with parental factors (mother and the toyboy etc.). Then there's the jesuit schooling (given her mother's behaviour this would have left her real confused in terms of values).
yes, Francesco is totally right in what he writes down. Just non to let ignorants report falsity on our country. That said, this is a great space to share opinions and competences on this sad event, and on crminal behaviuor in general.
I stand corrected on the jury and apologise for getting that wrong. In murder cases, there is a jury...sorry.
I stand by the rest, but let's not get off track.
If the other italian speakers would like to help out with some translating, maybe we could share the load.
The hypothesis about P meeting A at P Grimana for somekind of transaction would explain so many things. good work rob deepen coyote texas ariel. The apparent footage of that meeting seems to be being denied however.
More bad news for A in todays Repubblica. The police have leaked that keys to the 'ground floor' appartment were found in A's room. Giacomo Silenzi had left them with Meredith (to take care of his ailing cats while he was away) Blood was found on Silenzi's flatmates duvet. Silenzi 'Iclearly remember that when we left there was no blood and that he had locked his room.'
My life here is much better and safer than it ever was in england and I have no plans to leave. I love the people, the food, the beauty, the art, the history. I'm happy and settled here. Most of my italian friends would disagree with Francesco's comments above, but it's normal that people have varying political ideas.
No evidence of suspicion by analysis in RS's apartment. Video tracks of some relevant cameras have been abducted, while luminol investigation will be soon led in PL's pub. Between tomorrow and friday forensic experts will unveil about 80 different marks, fingerprints, blood stains etc., all found in Mez room.
As well as hair&blood under Mez' nails
It's not a matter of political ideas. Francesco corrected some wrong information that you Damien were spreading here. Anyway, I am happy that you settled down in Italy achieving a good quality of life. I think that the greatest problem of Italy is the jobe market, actually on this you might be right in Italy there might be millions of 'raccomandati', which is disgusting. Ho did you find a job Damien?
Cheers
It seems to me,that there is quite enough evidence to hold Amanda,and her Boyfriend For this terrible crime..What really disturbs me is the fact,That Amanda,was Meridiths room-mate....What I can't seem to figure out,is that they both,(Amanda & Boyfriend)seemed to have planned out the rape,sexual fantasy act.What I don't seem to get,is the final act of this Crime.(The Murder of Meridith)..I just can't picture Amanda,Knowing from the start,that the end,of their sexual fantasy,Would lead to the Death of Meridith..and so that has me also,in a head spin,as to what she may had thought the out come of this crime would be....Knowing that Meridith lived with her as a roommate,and also knowing, surely if she had lived,would have said something..Meridiths room that night must have been sheer terror for her..I pray for her family....Sorry for any typos in advance......
AndyT: So you think she has serious psychological problems? If so, I guess it would make sense. Even though we all have differing behaviours according to where we are (being more formal in the workplace than we would at home for instance) and who we are talking to, Amanda's heaviour seem to go from one extreme to another if the witnesses' comments are anything to go by - a normal everyday person does not behave like this. I guess mental imbalance is a possibility considering how numerous people who met her have made remarks over her "odd" behaviours with some also saying she was eccentric. Isn't Marijuana also linked to mental health damage? I wonder how long she has been a user?
Another thing I always wonder is, how come her bad side has not revealed itself in the 20 years she has been in the US? Why has it only just emerged now when she left the country?
It's almost as if she has a dual personality.
@ Random Guy:
I think it is because, as some comments above suggest, she led a completely different life in the US, compared to Italy with no relatives / friends there who knew her as a good person and expected her to behave a certain way.
I don't mean to suggest that it is the rule, but young Americans TEND to throw themselves into party life in Europe quite enthusiastically, even if a non-drinker/-smoker etc. at home. This is their time to be wild, far away from home - and why not? Normally, it doesn't end in murder ...
I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but Italian newspapers (Corriere della Sera) today wrote about a letter Amanda wrote to her mother as an assignment in her Italian Class on Monday, one day before she was arrested. It is currently being examined by psychologists. Apparently what she wrote seems to match her cool, egocentric behaviour reported by some of Meredith's friends; she wrote that she was nervous and that what happened was still a mystery to her, but she wanted to leave it behind her and she was not done with Perugia, she still wanted to go shopping with her mother.
Hello Hanna! Thanks for your comments. That suggests to me that rather worryingly you never really know a person.
Gunter Hallowgreen, your website is pricelessly funny, but I don't think your deviant opinions have a place here.
ROLF.
Awaiting the "80 pieces of evidence" as I am sure many are and I am very grateful for our Italian posters for providing information and context. May I relate a cautionary tale?
This not directed at you Hanna so much as reporters in Seattle who think it is cute that a friend's overseas student/daughter is sending back amusing emails about disovering Guiness and whiskey--someone else not Amanda Knox.
When I lived in Paris one of the waiters at Cafe Flore and I became friends and he helped me with my French and I helped him with his English. One day I asked him what was the largest complaint Europeans have with Americas (this is pre-Iraq mind you).
He said "the way Americans are so indulgent with their children." I was a little surprised that would come to his mind and I never really understood that until I was older.
Let me just say to those from the US who think the world is just one giant mall for thier amusement. Don't get paranoid, but remember the reptilian brain is not on vacation just because you are.
"Why has it only just emerged now when she left the country?"
At the risk of being redundant, she not only left the country, - she also left the checks and balances of family and friends behind. And not only their norms and moral guidance, - also, more importantly, if she is used to feeling/seeking approval, she may be missing that. I have met rudderless ships among other ex-pat communities. I cannot see how that of Italy would be any different.
If one looks at the livemap view of the area (the car park and the house) and rotates the map, a staircase leading down to the upper parking level becomes visible. On this top level a stair case leading down to the covered car park is also visible.
It would seem that Knox, returning home from town, took a route that led her between the buildings in the old town, down a staircase to the car park; she would have turned left at the bottom of the stair case and walked a hundred yards or so to another staircase where she would have descended into the covered parking area. She would have walked another hundred yards or so to the exit, where she would have emerged in the open. It was here that her image was captured by one of the CCTV cameras.
Someone here has helpfully marked up the display, showing images from several cameras are displayed simultaneously. The camera image showing Knox walking though the entrance to the car park is but one of several images on the same screen.
It is reasonable to assume that she was heading home as her house is across the road from the car park--all the has to do is turn right and cross the road.
(In a little while I'll post a screenshot showing the route she may have taken across the car park)
I have a nagging suspicion that despite all the rumours, that AK may turn out to have acted alone!
Randomguy: yes psychological problems, certainly, but not severely mentally ill, so the defense is unlikely to plead insanity but may ultimately go for quasi-criminal responsibility, if such a thing exists in Italy.
Coyotewaits has already mentioned the Narcissistic Personality Disorder NPD. But another possibility is Dissociative Identity Disorder DID (alternatively known as Multiple Personality Disorder - MPD), which would place Knox beyond what is normal.
The following two passages are cited from http://www.guidetopsychology.com/mpd.htm
"These normal fragments of personality are often called ego states, a term derived from the clinical hypnosis work of John & Helen Watkins. In contrast, Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) is an abnormal condition in which the personality becomes so fragmented that the various parts cannot even communicate with each other."
"Occasionally you might hear about a person who commits a crime or is implicated in a scandal. Friends and family may rush to the defense, saying “It couldn’t be true! He is so religious and so devoted to his family.” Well, sad to say, it could very well be that a lewd or criminal ego state exists side-by-side with the pillar-of-the-community ego state. Therefore, a person’s behavior in one situation does not “prove” anything about the rest of his or her life.
One point to remember here is that even though the motivation for one’s behavior may be unconscious, an ego state is not a dissociative experience. Therefore, when acting from a particular ego state one is still aware of the behavior itself."
www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2007/11/
christ_stopped_at_capanne.html man killed in the prison at cappane.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europ...ope/
7078532.stm the deportations
http://www.beppegrillo.it/eng/2007/10/ ciminals in Parliament . Forleo . Paolo Borsellino's brother explaining current relationship between italian state, mafia and judiciary. All Together with Passion. This information is unfortunately true.
Thanks Giuseppe for your comment about raccomandati and the job market. It disgusts me too, it needs to be meritocratic, radically overhauled. By the way, as you said a while back, I too am starting to worry that this murder will nver be resolved. Let's see what the forensics say tomorrow.
Good work sten. I also read that R's lawyers asked the pm to check the cameras between his house and A's.
What did you guys think of matrix?
I think this is the route Knox took on her return the house, descending the staircase (circled) and crossing the upper level of the car park before descending a second staircase (circled) and walking to the exit (circled) where she was caught on CCTV before emerging to cross the road to the house.
http://aycu40.webshots.com/
image...90644401_rs.jpg
What did you guys think of matrix?
I was thinking the same thing. This case is showing how much we really do live in a matrix and how the suspects lack of knowledge of it will be their downfall.
On the other hand, the ones who are innocent will be saved by the matrix. They will not show up on the cctv, their mobile phones will place them where they should be, the history on their web browsers will show they really were cruising the web, etc.
Damian - it's even better than the film!
I can watch Italian tv where i am (a little to the north), so not particularly surprised by Matrix. (Btw why do Italian weather reporters dress up in white military uniforms?)
--Correction for my post above, I meant partial or diminished responsibility (not quasi - my languages are getting mixed up)--
As you guys were saying earlier, I reckon the hypothesis that could answer all these questions, is that A and P met at Piazza Grimana, somekind of transaction took place, P went (back) to his bar.
Why did P change his phone?
Why did the cell pick up his phone at 8 38?
Why did he delete the message?
Why did he lie to the pm?
Why did A say she met P at Piazza Grimana?
How come P was at his bar?
How come (if verified) there are no traces of P at the house?
...but let's see what the forensic tests tell us. By the way, if they don't find proof P was at the house, will they release him?
the public minister leading the investigation..her parents who were both killed 1 month later in a car accident (false) they both died, not killed, in a car accident;
Francesco, this is a translation misunderstanding...in English it's correct for Damien to say that 'they were killed in an accident' anche se non sono stati ammazzati - in English it doesn't mean that another person killed them, just that the accident killed them.
To the so very many participating in this thread for their insightful, critical thought, and sincere comments:
seattleite | 11.14.07 - 1:30 pm | #
"Let me just say to those from the US who think the world is just one giant mall for thier amusement. Don't get paranoid, but remember the reptilian brain is not on vacation just because you are."
I love this metaphor. The reptilian brain perspective is one of my favorites. However, your contextual use of the metaphor is one of the very best I have ever heard.
AndyT | 11.14.07 - 4:10 pm | #
On DID and other personality disorders.
Thanks for posting the excellent summary article on personality disorders at
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/mpd.htm
Everyone should spend a few minutes reading it. Although DID is rare and quite controversial as the article points out, it is certainly within the realm of possibility in AK' case because what appears to be some symptoms of dissociative amnesia if the reports on her behavior post the death of MK are accurate. However, I would not guess at DID. Other factors can produce DA as the article suggest such as alcohol and certain drugs without have DID or even another dissociative disorder such as schizophrenia.
However, we can only speculate from our distance and such personality disorders as you and I and others have suggested here can only be determined by actual psychological examination, which recent reports seem to be alluding is now going on.
But I most appreciate your, Kevins and RobertM analysis and insightful thoughts here.
Also from the article, though a digression from the topic here, I am amused by this comment and wish to point out to the American audience here: Quoting:
" Note also that “popular” tests such as the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and the Enneagram, often used in educational and corporate personnel settings to assess personality “types,” have little clinical use to a competent psychologist and are best reserved for entertainment."
The MBTI test is the software application that Rick Warren's (of The Purpose Driven Life fame) E-Harmony Matching Maker web site uses to qualify users for participation (about 20% of all applicants are rejected including non-believers in Christianity ) and for the actual matching process. How's that for some good laughs.
Continued
I don't know if anyone would be interested or not but thought I would mention it anyway. Today a 23 year old man was convicted of murdering a woman. The reason I mention it is because of the similarities.
* It was a sexual attack
* It was brutually violent
* The convicted murdered claims he couldn't remember what happened
* He was quite stoned at the time of the attack
* Mobile phone records were crucial as evidence.
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/n...91466-20107180/
Anyway, I recalled reading in a number of different places, from everyday people claiming it's not possible to be violent when stoned. This proves otherwise.
Is it really possible to suffer memory loss from marijuana? If so, I do wonder if Amanda really does have memory problems.
Let's assume there were 4 people in the apartment. That night the game was: swingers party. PL and AK in her room. RS and MK in her room. This way, there would be 2 fittings. First, RS is the one who likes and always has knives with him, so to...Second, since AK cleaned up her own room, no evidence of PL has been found, yet.
In this scenario, I'm not sure RS is the guilty, 'cause maybe, caught by a sudden jealousy, AK entered MK's room, took the knife (she surely knew his boyfriend' passion) and killed.
Uhm?
Random Guy In London | Homepage | 11.14.07 - 12:27 pm | # asked:
"Another thing I always wonder is, how come her bad side has not revealed itself in the 20 years she has been in the US? Why has it only just emerged now when she left the country? It's almost as if she has a dual personality."
I believe the answer is 'she has' and 'she had' (and in that a few others have pointed out here that the "gloves only come off when one leaves their family, etc. environment for an adventurous exploration of the world...which is SOP for Western cultures around the age of 18-20. It's called college.) It is just that no one notices until........ it is pointed out to them.
See my comments again at:
coyotewaits | 11.13.07 - 8:38 pm | #
in the fourth paragraph
"What I would care to add, and do so very carefully, is that this character mental disorder can in not so rare cases be acutely modified in a person with "borderline symptoms". In this case what 'borderline' means is the asymptomatic behavior of crossing over temporarily into state of psychosis. This is often not even recognized by others close to subject until such symptoms of it happening are described to the family/friends/acquaintances, when then they [the others] suddenly exclaim, OMG yes! I've seen her/him do that or be like that before."
and the article AndyT posted on Personality Disorder: Section on Ego States: The Illusion of Identity:
"Sometimes, we notice this by saying something like, “I saw so-and-so at the company picnic over the weekend, and when he was playing with the children he showed a child-like side of himself that I had never seen before.” There is nothing abnormal about this except the fact that we don’t notice such things more often.
"Occasionally you might hear about a person who commits a crime or is implicated in a scandal. Friends and family may rush to the defense, saying “It couldn’t be true! He is so religious and so devoted to his family.” Well, sad to say, it could very well be that a lewd or criminal ego state exists side-by-side with the pillar-of-the-community ego state. Therefore, a person’s behavior in one situation does not “prove” anything about the rest of his or her life."
AndyT: Thanks for that little piece on Multiple Personality Disorder.
I have a nagging suspicion that despite all the rumours, that AK may turn out to have acted alone!
The police seem pretty convinced there were at least two other people present holding MK down while she was sexually assaulted. I don't think any plausible theories about what happened that night involve AK acting alone. The evidence - bloody shoe print of male-sized sneaker, bloody handprints on the wall that apparently do not belong to AK, evidence of a sexual assault - do not fit with AK acting alone. Somebody else was there and took part in the sexual assualt, whether it was RS, PL, Mr. X, or some combination thereof.
deepen and todger:
You guys working the maps are amazing. Thanks for your insights and skills.
Anyway, I recalled reading in a number of different places, from everyday people claiming it's not possible to be violent when stoned. This proves otherwise.
There is generally a positive correlation between drug and alcohol use and violent crime. However, the correlation between marijuana use and violent crime is much weaker and might be non-existent. It seems to me that it is likely that the guilty parties were using something other than or in addition to marijuana that night.
Let's assume there were 4 people in the apartment. That night the game was: swingers party. PL and AK in her room. RS and MK in her room. This way, there would be 2 fittings. First, RS is the one who likes and always has knives with him, so to...Second, since AK cleaned up her own room, no evidence of PL has been found, yet.
In this scenario, I'm not sure RS is the guilty, 'cause maybe, caught by a sudden jealousy, AK entered MK's room, took the knife (she surely knew his boyfriend' passion) and killed.
Uhm?
But the police believe that MK was sexually assaulted and that multiple individuals were involved in holding her down. For your scenario to be correct, the police must be completely mistaken.
I don't say MK agreed with that (hypothetical!) kind of sexual game. RS has been prompted by AK, so did it with violence.
Eric,
British and Americans think justice in court is like the film '12 angry men' where 12 jurors fight it out between them to decide whether a defendant is guilty or not. once they decide the judge then takes over and releases the defendant or pronounces sentence. in the US the jury also fights between themselves over the death sentence or life if they are found guilty.
you post:
n Italy murder cases are tried before a "Corte d'Assise" and there is actually a jury composed of two professional judges and six popular jury members (i.e. ordinary people)
i agree there are jurors but they must pass a stringent test and i understand they are not the decision makers in the same way as the Brits and Yanks think but rather more like interrogators, meaning that they pose questions to the prosecution and defense which help inform the 2 judges in reaching a verdict.
please add more if i am not fully correct in this.
i am not suggesting there is anything wrong in the way Italian justice is designed but rather want the Yanks and Brits to prepare themselves for a different manner of trial than the fantasize about.
clarification:
prepare themselves for a different manner of trial they expect!
Am I right I thinking Knox was alleged to have met with Lumumba at about 8.30 on Piazza Grimana on the night of the murder?
(Can anyone with local knowledge state if this is the formal name of the square, or is it an informal name, similar to the short form "Via Alessi" for "Via Galeazzo Alessi"?
Also, is Piazza Grimana either the basketball court close to Knox's house, or a square onto which the basketball court leads?)
Do both Knox and Lumumba deny this meeting? (presumably this relates to the location of Lumumba's phone, and the text message he sent to Knox)
Where is Solecito supposed to be at this point? At home surfing the net after smoking a joint and making dinner?
todger
you post:
I think this is the route Knox took on her return the house, descending the staircase (circled) and crossing the upper level of the car park before descending a second staircase (circled) and walking to the exit (circled) where she was caught on CCTV before emerging to cross the road to the house.
WHY WOULD SHE NOT JUST STAY ON THE UPPER LEVEL OF THE CAR PARK, OUT IN THE OPEN AND SAFE?
the route you suggest wouldn't save more that 10 metres but add the extra effort of stairs and the insecurity that going underground would bring. (and it would be obvious to see the cameras at entrance level without much else to look at - if you are suggesting avoidance of detection)
i am a bloke and i wouldn't really like to go into an underground car park when i can avoid it.
My Take is, it was just Amanda,and The Boyfriend...With the Boyfriend,The Main player in this..Him,the stabbing,the attempted cover-ups and and the frame-up(bar owner)..with Amanda,Just being A real stoned infatuated Little Girl.I can picture the Boyfriend screaming at her,to hold her(Meridith)the fuck down.. and finaly slashing her again and again...Like I said early,there was sheer terror in that room that night..We all know it was for Meridith ,But I do think Amanda had felt terror,soon after,the knife wounds,and prehaps sobered up,quite soon.The loud voices heard later that night by passbyer may just been the Boyfriend,trying to calm Amanda down...I also think the Congo Bar owner just had some badluck,with just knowing these 2...I am thinking,The Bar Owner,was there that night..But after he had closed down for the evening..that could explain why he changed the cell phone.because he knew what had happened and wanted to,try and place alittle space to the party of Amanda & BF..as for barowner shutting his cellphone off that night..Would he need one at the Bar?...Wouldn't he have one there?.....Just my take..and again sorry for the spelling
But there is no additional staircase at the ende of the parking lot, or is there?
she could have walked down the car park ramp on the right and been at about the same place opposite the house.
I assume that part of the forensics is and will be DNA typing analysis from bodily fluid/tissue remains at crime scene.
There is no reference in this thread or in the media reports about any DNA analysis being concluded and announced tomorrow/Friday. Which make sense to me because DNA extraction and typing takes a lot longer than the ten days that have passed since the collection of evidence from the flat.
Thus, even when we get the forensics results on blood (luminol examination of the trainers, pubic hair remains, if found, from PL or RS, hair in MK's hand, video resolution enhancement) if done properly a lot more forensic analysis is yet to occur.
I am curious why others here have not picked up on the report that RS was into comics/periodicals that displayed the fantasy trips of women displayed in erotic dress and poses being slain with knives and swords, IOW what sounds like extreme S&M. We do know that he stated he had a collection of knives and swords in his flat. And the conclusion by the investigating magistrate that RS was looking for "extreme sensations", noted from his on web page, which sounds to me like a euphemism for sexual sado-machism taken to it's extreme.
Also that the analysis of his computer use can not only be for trying to see if he was logged in anywhere, (which BTW can be traced by his IP on websites logs) at that time of the crime, but also to see what kind of websites he surfed. Porn sites on violent S&M anyone?
I thinks there is a lot more to be revealed yet by this investigation, if in fact Italian LE do their jobs like is done in UK & USA which I have no doubt they do. I also would like to see some speculation on the possibility of personality disorder or variance in this so called nice, innocent appearing, young man.
I will start with this: Why hasn't the press given us any information on RS's background. How is it that a 24 year old is just now studying computer science at the university. What was he doing from the ages of 17 to 23. Has his friends been interviewed or come forward from his home town?
Why is the background coverage all seem to be on AK and the victim MK?
What is PL's background in the Congo before immigrating to Italy?
What is wrong with this picture I am drawing about the Italian LE and the Italian media?
BTW the Matrix Media seems only to be not much more than say the American Today Show, which today had the suspicious Drew Petersen, husband of the missing and presumed dead Stacy Peterson and former husband of Katheleen Savio found dead, bruised and bloody in her bathtub in 2004. This is of course the Bollingbrook, IL USA Stacy Peterson case highlighted elsewhere on Steve Huff's CrimeBlog.US He (DP) was of course paid to be on TV.
It's all about the media obtaining eye balls, not facts, truth, or justice.
rob | 11.14.07 - 7:06 pm | # posted
"i agree there are jurors but they must pass a stringent test and i understand they are not the decision makers in the same way as the Brits and Yanks think but rather more like interrogators, meaning that they pose questions to the prosecution and defense which help inform the 2 judges in reaching a verdict.
please add more if i am not fully correct in this.
i am not suggesting there is anything wrong in the way Italian justice is designed but rather want the Yanks and Brits to prepare themselves for a different manner of trial than the fantasize about."
If your description of the Italian criminal jurisprudence process is correct, I like it and would wish USA might modify theirs, especially in qualifying jurors and allowing them to ask questions. This "jury of one's peers" in USA sucks, especially in high profile criminal cases and in cases where the subject matter, e.g., financial crimes, are extremely complex and beyond the grasp of an ordinary untrained or unschooled citizen in the subject matter.
Here it becomes just a process of the prosecution and defense playing games to stuff the jury with their less than intelligence sympathizers.
coyotewaits: you don't graduate from highschool in italy when you're 17, it's more like 19. And as far as I know RS did not just now START his studies but is finishing them - I think he was supposed to defend his thesis this month.
That said, it IS strange that there is so little about him in the press!
sex magic - all souls ritual
look into it if you want to know
i liked robert m's 'a bacchanal rite...when the Dionysisan Spirit is let loose'
maybe the amazonian uber-strong frauline amanda, possessed by one of the malevolent spirits which roam free following all hallow's eve, actually did the killing without another body in the whole house.
and for my 2 pennies, the news of the world fingerprints above the bed look like they were made by a marigold washing up glove - far to regular and solid
ahh cleaning up after herself at last.
i guess meredith was finally heard by amanda after all
and yes all of us who have studied killers know that the covering of the deceased by the perp is a VERY female trait....
mmm (sound of scratching head)
coyotewiats: Thanks for the doing the deep wading in the DSM. Mostly thanks for bringing up questions regarding background PL, RS.
Easy answer to question first: Lots more info on AK and M and even "mainstream" press likes to report sensational crimes (even if from a distance like TIME did today. In US we have entire industries based on the actions of crazy, sex-crazed, drunken, drugged out young women. We call them celebrities.
The only things I have run across regarding PL: beloved by Perugia people who know him. Some think he is related to Patrice Lumumba somehow(family claims not but this came from a press snippet in a British tab which immediately goes in the circular) but it does sound BS. The names of Lumumba's sons are in a Wkipedia listing so if one of those names is his father I guess it is possible. Doubtful.
You Tube video (2003) which someone put link above. Frankly watching him in this video gives me a little creepy feeling (my gut feeling is he is a bit of a letch) --also one female in report in a British tab said he put the moves on her--again in the circular really evidence of nothing.
Some blogger students in Perugia noted bar scene in Perugia can be sleazy and attracts sleazy people and the "marketing jobs" are handing out flyers in exchange actually for free drinks cause the foreigners can't get real jobs in Italy.
My own reading on the Congo--now the DRC--(truly still is the "heart of darkness). Anyone interested can Google around it is not pretty.
Many who hate to think he had anything to do this but he is in my cast of characters till foresics says no.
RS: Not much. The Manga comics were part of a collection and not all I take it were of the S&M variety but by his own admission he was looking for extreme sensations. His role may be larger or smaller but again until forensics say this has all been a horrible mistake, he is likely in the right place for now. Frankly people with edged weapon collections are not my cup of tea but again that is not evidence.
AK. What else can there possibly be to say.
Thanks to todger for the graphic.
This would indeed be a possibility but only if she walked home coming from 'Le Chic'. It would make no sense if she had just met with Lumumba on Piazza Grimana. I think Piazza Grimana is the formal name of the square, although Live Maps names the street Piazza Fortebraccio. At least we can find in some news reports. Its right in front of the University of foreigners:
Here is a picture: http://img510.imageshack.us/
my.p...stuartseib8.jpg
I remember one report describing a usual day in the life of AK, that she would go there in the morning and get some coffee and something to eat.
Suppose AK is with PL at 'Le Chic' in the evening and wants go home, there would be a maximum of 4 possibilities. 3 of them would include Piazza Grimana, only one is on the other side of the town. All 4 are possible because they all have the same length (around 0.45 miles).
But, as it has been said before, why would a girl at night go home on a route thats quiet and probably dark. From my experience going through a parking garage at night can be scary. I'm not sure though, maybe the garage is the brightest and savest place in the city and if you think of the drug dealers at Piazza Grimana it might have been the ideal route.
Both Knox and Lumumba deny to have been there on the night of the murder. Knox says she is with RS at his home, PL says he is in his bar.
seattlite
'Frankly watching him in this video gives me a little creepy feeling (my gut feeling is he is a bit of a letch)"
what a fucking joke! if you thought P dancing with a woman as he was asked to makes him a letch - what the fuck is the SLEAZY italian journo holding the mic and chasing women asking them their names as the cringe and try to get away from him? a rapist?
he must be if you find ps conduct on camera offensive.
what about the way the journo harassed the little kid and scared him?
you are impaired by prejudice
rob: A question for your quite analytical but itching head.
Nothing I have heard here (given all the quite intelligent and insightful comments), or in the media reports of and about the PLE leaked information and the medias own interviews and speculation leads me to doubt for even a moment the complicity of the three persons now in detention.
Given that, what is your own take on the apparent fact that in AK's so called second confession at 01:45 hrs 06 Nov and repeated at 05:45 hrs the same morning, only spoke to her and PL and MK presence at the death site and apparently not about RS? (I have my own take on this but wish to hear others. Haven't found any posts addressing this discrepancy yet.)
Second question for you or our Italian friends on this site. Is in fact the Carabinieri (military police) a local police of Umbria region Perugia capital, or are they a national centralized police more like say, the FBI, in the US, which would not be involved in a local criminal investigation? How is the Policia system in Italy organized and how does it function across geographical regions. Noting that there was also a so called Postal Police whom investigated the finding of a found cell phone?
Thanks in advance to any helping me understand this.
Clarification: I am aware of and note that it was reported AK said she "could not remember whether RS was there or not". Key information regarding my question but not the same as the PL presence noted about her statement.
Rob: I agree with you. I thought the journo was a bit of a letch too.
Carabinieri are national as posted above
postal police means local police
Francesco posted 'no police interview without the assistance of a lawyer can be used in a trial,in this case it was a pre-investigation'
forget about what has been reported before, its the statements they will have following forensics this week and obtained with representation present.
there really is nobody solidly placed at the house except amanda and meredith
just wait and see, it will unfold in a very different way from the states but in a familiar manner to all murder investigations.
don't sweat the small stuff
.
seattleite | 11.14.07 - 8:33 pm | #
I love your wry sense of humor. Very profound making me not just smile but laugh in your last post re: celebrities industry.
I have to be away for about 30-40 minutes but will be back with a couple questions regarding your post, hope you are still here then, 18:00 hrs now your time, yes?
seattleite....no
he was no a letch too
he was the only letch
rob | 11.14.07 - 8:43 pm | # posted:
"seattlite
'Frankly watching him in this video gives me a little creepy feeling (my gut feeling is he is a bit of a letch)" what a fucking joke! if you thought P dancing with a woman as he was asked to makes him a letch - what the fuck is the SLEAZY italian journo holding the mic and chasing women asking them their names as the cringe and try to get away from him? a rapist? he must be if you find ps conduct on camera offensive. what about the way the journo harassed the little kid and scared him? you are impaired by prejudice"
Rob, you are out of order here and over the top. An apology would be appropriate to your comment that became an ad hominem reply not a critical presentation of refutation.
Let's keep such personal consideration aside and stick with logical considerations, yes?
Quite frankly I perceived similar impressions that did seattleite to the video and have my logic and reason as to the interviewers personality and behavior which was quite gross as did you. I'll post later when I get back.
The article Random Guy posted about AKs behaviour at the University of foreigners is interesting, especially the part in which someone describes how she would come into the class, sitting in the first front-row and never be late. This might of course be wrong, maybe she only was good student who participated in class ... but lets suppose its true:
The fact that she sits in the first row is IMO not because she is a nerd. She doesn't think about it, so she simply takes the first available seat. I think this is part of her character. Some other people may think before class: 'today I'm gonna sit with XYZ' ... but thats not her. She is self-assured. All her actions are therefore impulsive.
Maybe she also needs the attention to be seen by everyone, but that would also be "written" into her character.
Hanna wrote 11.14.07 - 12:42 pm:
"I don't mean to suggest that it is the rule, but young Americans TEND to throw themselves into party life in Europe quite enthusiastically, even if a non-drinker/-smoker etc. at home. This is their time to be wild, far away from home - and why not? Normally, it doesn't end in murder ..."
Yes, I have the same impression.
I live in Berlin, Germany and there are lots of young american tourists who are coming to this city because of its hipness and the possibility to enjoy the various bars and clubs. The US-americans I meet are always funny and open-minded and they are eager to go drinking. I like that very much.
When I lived in the US for a year (2000) I kinda expected the same beforehand. I thought this is gonna be a fun journey. But Americans are actually taking this life very serious ... even more than we Europeans IMO. Like us europeans they try hard to get to a certain standard of living (Car, house, wife, pets etc. etc.) and this means they have to get up at 6am in the morning to get to work.
I remember one day, I decided to take an one-hour-WALK to a nearby city because I had time and wanted to see the surroundings. All people thought of me as the strange, crazy guy from Europe not taking the car to go a city.
This is just a little story on how we see people coming from a different culture.
As far as I can tell,the only for sure person at the scene,was the Boyfriend with his shoes.....But things will, and should be making more sense soon.
you are a prejudiced idiot, people outside the Us can actually be personable without being a letch.
support your pathetic impressions that he was a letch
the journo was GROSS...P was very patient and polite and even did as he was asked and danced with one of the women the journo had badgered....watch it again and you will see P was a bit uncomfortable not really 'letching it up' as you seem to suggest.
i have nothing to apologise for, i have not presented fuzzy impressions, just dealt with the facts mate
coyote you are a sanctimonious twat so leave it out and cool your jets. everybody can moderate themselves.
and pls read the older posts before you go posting questions that have already been addressed, it really is unnecessary, unless you are just lonesome of course then carryon.
some people make me ashamed to be an american
.
I agree...Coyote,may need to slow down abit...........
hear hear meman2
I do indeed
coyotewaits: The fact that RS is probably into erotic comics and S&M could have played a part but its actually difficult to say so. Its the same as violence in TV - you would need to know one further to say someones addiction for something becomes dangerous. S&M deals all about pain and humiliation but very few crimes come from it. In S&M its an absolut no-go to force someone who has nothing to do with it. Most of the time it is practiced between two loving partners.
I think the fact that RS collects knives is a little bit suspicious (at least I'd think about that person twice) but there are actually lots of people doing it: Mr Ferdinand Piech, owner of a significant share of Porsche automobiles, a very powerful man in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Pi%C3%
ABch) is a dedicated collector of knives.
"How is it that a 24 year old is just now studying computer science at the university"
Its actually quite common in Europe to study for such a long time. In Germany lots of people are 28 or older when they finish their studies (although this will change in the next years).
Why is the background coverage all seem to be on AK and the victim MK?
The female factor?
rob | 11.14.07 - 9:25 pm | # posted among other half sentences"
"coyote you are a sanctimonious twat so leave it out and cool your jets. everybody can moderate themselves. and pls read the older posts before you go posting questions that have already been addressed, it really is unnecessary, unless you are just lonesome of course then carryon."
Well said by one who obviously has a personality deficiency in social skills by which in their arrogant smugness, self belief in their own intellectual superiority, and impatience and intolerance for anyone else's opinions or questions that do not meet their standards, actually are projecting, through ad homimen attacks, their own personal traits and true character onto others, by accusing the others of behaving and being what they themselves are.
I have read all the posts here, some more than once. Since there are over 850 posts that began over nine days ago I must humbly apologize for not having a photographic memory as apparently you do.
I made a mistake, I admit to myself, ever asking you a question in the first place. This isn't the first time or even the first forum at which you have attacked me personally or for that matter attacked others personally.
Please be assured that I have put you on my personal permanent ignore button and I shall ignore all your subsequent posts, thus not in anyway replying or referencing them. Please do not bother to answer any of my questions or reference my posts as your answers and or posts will not be, to me, worth the screen pixels with which they are displayed.
And, as to your ad homimen nature, please note how it becomes even more acute when someone offers you some innocuous criticism of your ad homimen critique on others thoughts, logic, reason and expressions thereof. You become even more aggressive in expressing your rather uncontrolled arrogance by demeaning others characters rather than staying to the subject and debating their logic and/or beliefs.
So very common of many impulsive and immature persons during Internet communication where they remain inherently anonymous while they judge others with their own sanctimony but accept no self examination of their own behavior.
So be it.
There is generally a positive correlation between drug and alcohol use and violent crime. However, the correlation between marijuana use and violent crime is much weaker and might be non-existent. It seems to me that it is likely that the guilty parties were using something other than or in addition to marijuana that night.
blah | 11.14.07 - 6:53 pm | #
My impression of marijuana/hashish is the same as above--Especially in people who have NO previous violent inclinations (at least that we know of). In fact, in considering the personalities as they have been presented so far, it is hard to imagine any of them planning a violent attack such as this, or even descending to this horrendous brutality on their own. This is not a typical "first" or "beginner" crime.
Is PCP a drug commonly used in the area? If these three people were indeed the perps here, there had to have been an unknown catalyst...
Agree with both blah and A2. Something triggered their behavior, given it could hardly have been an accident of one slip of the knife in that there was two other superficial cuts that drew some light blood.
Phencyclidine (PCP) or other hallucinogenic, neuro-toxic and dissociative drug, rather than say cocaine or other neuro-stimulate, seems much more likely. Will we ever know?
It was once a popular drug indulgence to lace cannabis with PCP before smoking it. Is this, PCP, still a current drug in use by young people in European countries?
Yes, there were the two other cuts to MK's neck. And I understand that there were numerous knife cuts over her body, as well bruising over her body and on her face--even her gums. This girl was tortured and beaten. If these 3 had planned a "sex game" and if PL truly was "infatuated" with MK, how, upon her refusal to play, does it happen that he, AK and RS all descend to the sadistic and brutal behaviour spontaniously -- with no dissent from any of them. How did all 3 become torturerers and murderers at the same moment? How did they all 3 viciously abandon their humanity at the same time? At the very least, did they not consider the consequenses they would face after rape, much less murder? PL and RS in particular had much to lose. Other than possibly PCP, I cannot make real sense of this scenario.
Could the LE have performed urine drug tests on the subjects after the judge approved their detention and could those drugs be admissible as later forensic evidence?
Again, being not knowledgeable as to Italian law, I am curious because PCP remains in the body and doesn't metabolize and become completely excreted for up to several weeks, like cannabis, but unlike cocaine, meth, and some others.
A2 | 11.14.07 - 11:42 pm | # posted:
"And I understand that there were numerous knife cuts over her body, as well bruising over her body and on her face--even her gums. This girl was tortured and beaten."
"If these 3 had planned a "sex game" and if PL truly was "infatuated" with MK, how, upon her refusal to play, does it happen that he, AK and RS all descend to the sadistic and brutal behaviour spontaniously -- with no dissent from any of them. How did all 3 become torturerers and murderers at the same moment? How did they all 3 viciously abandon their humanity at the same time? At the very least, did they not consider the consequenses they would face after rape, much less murder? PL and RS in particular had much to lose. Other than possibly PCP, I cannot make real sense of this scenario."
Has this description of the autopsy and post mortem examination been published somewhere? This is the first I have heard of this degree of apparent torture and abuse.
This is almost beginning to sound like the Charles Manson follower's brutal slaying back in the late 1960's in Los Angeles in which all the perps were on acid.
In these are facts as to the crime, I can only agree with your 2nd paragraph above
Is there a source of the statements as to MK's body when found that is not in a sensationalizing type publication as the tabloids.
I have read at least two accounts in the past week that describe these injuries... they didn't strike me as tabloid ariicles (although perhaps I am naive). I will take a look get back to you as soon as I locate the sources.
I also had the strange recollection of the Manson murders here...But the cast of perps is quite different. This is what I find so confusing. Ak certainly seems from the news accounts, to be a very strange and egocentric girl. But her long time friends in the US, who feel that they know her are incredulous at the accusations. The other two players, RS and PL seem as far away from Manson and his followers as you can get...
to A2:
If your post mortem condition is correct, and your hypothesis they were on PCP or like, this could certainly explain AK's second statement as to what happened in stating: "I couldn't remember if RS was there, I covered my ears" as being her then reality instead of an out right lie. My opinion is still being based on this statement by her. It does however describe what a person disassociating would experience, and that she possibly does not really know consciously what did happen.
I have discounted this scenario because she later recanted this statement.
But my doubt would be, if they were on PCP, I cannot understand how they could recover quickly enough to start doing a clean up, gather their clothes for cleaning or trashing, etc. Maybe in fact there wasn't much of any attempt to clean up, given the blood on the wall, in the bathroom sink, faeces in toilet bowl, etc. Maybe just enough sensibility to break the window, ditch the cell phones in attempt to make it as a breakin and steal property.
Still curious to see more details of the coroners report. Hopefully will be part of the so called up coming announcement. Is this actually suppose to be a LE/investigator's press conference or is this to be some internal report that will be 'leaked' again?
Guess I'll head to bed and hope there are some published "new facts" tomorrow. I am really sort of 'bizarred' out at this point.
You are correct about the Manson murders, in that it was pre-meditated. But the brutally of it had to have been only done by persons on drugs or at the very least completely psychotic.
Maybe Manson himself could have gotten those little wretched personalities, women and men, to do it without the dope. It is so far ago, I am sorry I even brought it up, as I do not wish to recall it.
I agree--I do not wish to revisit the horrors Manson episode either. I think that the memory of those murders arose out of the wantoness and brutality toward an unsuspecting innocent that is also present in the death of MK.
I do not usually follow this type of news, but this has taken hold of my thoughts in a way that I don't understand. I have a 20 year old daughter, a college student that is looking into study abroad, and the normacly that she (and I) expect is, Im sure what Meredith and her family expected. And the events that befell her seem not only unimaginable, but also to me, unexplainable. If the suspects were mad, alienated, anti-social drugged out monsters, such as in the Manson case, I could shake my head in horror and move on. The fact that the three suspects seem so NOT crazed, is what is hard, at least for me, to understand or deal with.
I too an headed for sleep--work in a few hours. If I locate the sources of the post mortem info that i referenced earlier, i will inform.
Thanks to coyotewaits, and all here, for the thoughtful input.
After a slow news day yesterday we finally have some "notizie". There was a report from outside the Questura in Perugia on Canale 5's 8am news broadcast (Italian TV).
I hope nobody is expecting any answers from the results of the scientific research...
According to this report the investigators aren't even sure if the motive for the attack was sexual, or even if any sexual violence took place. That would contradict everything we've heard so far, but there you go. Looks like the investigators are starting to consider the theory that it was a "domestic dispute" ("lite in casa").
The other interesting thing was that they seem ever more convinced that a fourth individual is involved. Or better, an individual that hasn't been sitting in jail for the last week or so.
Now they are going to test RS's computer to see if he was connected to the internet when the murder took place (not that they are really sure when that was exactly). Hope the investigators remember that it's possible to be connected to the internet (while downloading movies or whatever) while you yourself are out and about. Otherwise it's the perfect alibi.
http://online.giornaledellumbria.../
01_primapg.pdf
Here's the front page of the local paper in Perugia - that link is updated with a new PDF of the newspaper cover every day. Today's story is that Meredith might still have been able to call for help, if her killer(s) hadn't made sure to take her mobile phones with them. They're basically just keeping the story on the front page even though there's nothing new to report. Tomorrow's headlines should be interesting though.
A2 | 11.15.07 - 12:55 am | wrote:
"I do not usually follow this type of news, but this has taken hold of my thoughts in a way that I don't understand. I have a 20 year old daughter, a college student that is looking into study abroad, and the normacly that she (and I) expect is, Im sure what Meredith and her family expected."
And thank you for your comments A2.
My daughter did study in Europe for a year through the International University Partners Program when she was matriculating at Brown University. However, being a major in science (geophysics, environmental science) she chose to study in UK when given the opportunity to do so at King's College, U. of London.
In her case she chose to dismiss all countries in which she was not fluent in the native language (only English, French) so as to avoid the extra burden of learning a new language for social exchange in the general community, even though, especially in science, English is common to most EU university communities. And it was so easy to just hop the channel to visit many other countries which she did three times in her year of study.
Of course all this was pre 9/11/2001 by two years. If it were now she, her mother and I might have different thoughts as I am sure is included in your concerns.
Ironically, or perhaps not so ironically, she is presently living in Sweden doing post doctorate climate research at the University in Umeå. She is a paleoclimatogist and limonolgist with dual doctorate in geophysics. (We are a science oriented family).
I said 'not so ironically', because EU funding for scientific research, especially in the area of global climate research is, as a percentage of GDP, significantly greater than that in the U.S.
Be that as it may, I strongly urge you to support your daughter's effort to include study abroad for both educational and social reasons. Our childrens generation's greatest contribution to social, scientific, and political success in the world lies in their ability to negotiate in a global community of diversity rather than a single country as has our generation.
I do not wish to digress into political hubris in my opinions here, but please indulge me here as support to my statement above. Perhaps if our own (your's and my) generation of political leaders (the majority of them) in our Executive and Legislative offices today had spent a year or two abroad studying and making friends in Europe or say; Jordan, Latin America, India, Australia, China, etc; then perhaps America's foreign policy would be quite different or at least different enough that more than half the world would not dislike us as they so express themselves as doing today.
I say quite frankly, I am ashamed and embarrassed at my own generation of political leaders. What hubris and corruption they engage in the name of representative leadership. However...
What has occurred in this very tragic and senseless rape and homicide in the ancient and beautifu
Continued:
What has occurred in this very tragic and senseless rape and homicide in the ancient and beautiful University community of Perugia, Italy (the University dates to the early 14th century) could happen at almost any University in the USA or any other country (re: Virginia Tech, etc.)
Let's us not judge and fault the University, Perugia, or Italy per se, which I am sure you are not doing, on this singular horrible incident.
That said, it would concern me very much about this community as a whole, carefully listening here to our friends in this blog from Europe and particularly Italy, with regards to non-university influences upon college students in a city such as Perugia (~125,000 pop?) that includes high unemployment of foreign immigrants as well as young nationals who are not students, and open drug dealing that appears not to be well policed or strictly controlled and even appears to be tolerated by the University and City officials.
Best to you and your family in finding the best of opportunities for your children and your support their of.
deepen was like:
> But, as it has been said before, why would a girl at night go home on a route
> thats quiet and probably dark. From my experience going through a parking
> garage at night can be scary. I'm not sure though, maybe the garage is the
> brightest and savest place in the city and if you think of the drug dealers at
> Piazza Grimana it might have been the ideal route.
*Why* would a lone girl go through the enclosed car park? Only Knox can answer that--perhaps it was her usual shortcut home, delivering her opposite the entrance to the house she shared-- whatever the reason, the CCTV image shows her at the garage.
It's my assumption that she's leaving the garage, an assumption that's based on an examination of the livemap image: if one asks oneself what she's doing at the entrance of the car park, the proximity of the car park entrance to her house suggests that she used the car park as a short cut. She *could* have stayed on the upper level and walked down the ramp, but that would take her a little further from the entrance to her house, requiring her to retrace her steps slightly. While descending to the lower level introduces a second staircase, it delivers her closer to her destination and is, therefore, the most direct route.
Later I'll look at other parts of the livemap (and a streetplan) to see if my idea about crossing the carpark would be logical based on where she may have been before entering the car park (eg, from Le Chic, from the basketball court, from Piazza Grimana, or from Solecti's house).
rob, regarding the Corte d'Assise: I'm not a lawyer but I'm fairly positive about the following:
1. "giudici popolari" are ordinary citizens extracted at random among all citizens (within a give jurisdiction) satisfying minimal requirements (such as having a junior high school diploma, or high school diploma for the appeal court)
2. they participate in the sentencing together with the two professional judges. Keep in mind that in the Italian system there is no unmotivated "verdict", all sentences must be motivated (in writing).
3. again, the Corte d'Assise is only competent for murder cases and some other cases in which the prison term is superior to 24 years. All the other cases are tried before a Tribunal, in which there are only professional judges ("togati" or "magistrati").
coyote get a life,
i do not, and have never, participated in any other forum save a post on the 'are we fair to amanda?' seattle pi site which i also posted here
you are clearly deluded and paranoid
my posts - urging that the 'known facts' are accurately referenced to here - speak for themselves. theories are great when coming from unprejudiced minds that have no personal agenda otherwise its emotive ego tripping.
this excellent string of Steve's, with minds from Perugia and elsewhere struggling to understand the senseless brutal slaying of a vibrant young woman from the green hills of Surrey, England, really has helped me and i hope others feel the same way.
i know we will all hope to see justice prevail and not a single innocent person goes down for this
.
thanks eric, i am pretty sure the jurors get to pose questions which is a fundamental difference - along with the written justification.
another thing eric, do the judges do the writing up? are jurors adding their findings to the writings and their individual reasonings apparent?
Hi, you all...
Just a question: why the two M. cellular phones was found in Via Sperandio 5bis?... Is a little bit far away, or not?...
So... look, on google earth, the only way you can do, by car, from S. house to A & M house...
(and it's the same from "Le Chic" to the murder house)...
http://thumbsnap.com/v/4nYBQ7UU.jpg
Excuse me for my bad english...
Middie
The questions are posed by the parts (defense and publico ministero, which is like the DA in the US). The president (one of the two professional judges) can also ask questions. I think the jurors can ask questions only through the president.
The sentence is by vote on each count. Each juror expresses the reason for his/her vote, which goes on record. The actual writing of the sentence is in fact done by one of the two professional judges.
Also, I should have added that giudici popolari are extracted at random, but only among people that have requested it and satisfy the requierements. Each town hall has a list of giudici popolari.
Another little question...
what you think about this algerian guy, named, I think "Youba", filmed by "Matrix"?
http://thumbsnap.com/v/E3YNVCvL.png
http://thumbsnap.com/v/KVu3Vmt5.png
1. He was "fired out" from "Le Chic" by PL the day before the murder.
2. He have the 99% of possibilities being the same described on AK blog as a "good crazy dancer".
3. Looks exactly like a maghrebin.
4. He's a musician.
5. He told, on "Matrix" that some english journalist offered him 500 euros if he said that AK had a relationship with him.
Mmmmhhh...
Bye
Middie
thanks eric...very informative on the jurors and records.
the Times uk...Today.have stated there was blood found in the boyfriends flat.....I think the boy friend snapped,the the quiet reserved person that he is being betrayed as...my therory is still holding...And I think, the Bar owner gets released this week
The Italian media is reporting that the blood found in RS's appartment is his, and has nothing to do with Meredith. He has some kind of medical condition that involves bleeding and sponges it appears.
According to the TG3 news broadcast all three suspects hope to have their appeal against their incarceration heard tomorrow, on the grounds that there doesn't seem to be any real evidence against them to justify their ongoing imprisonment.
To use a football analogy, it looks like the prosecution have had their chance to run with the ball. And, to quote that great legal mind John Madden... fumble.
The Times
Meredith or Madeleine: it's trial by media
The problems of finding justice
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2865988.ece
I think "fumble" my be a very correct metaphor.
The Times
November 15, 2007
Blood found at flat of Italian suspect in Meredith Kercher murder
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...193971/?
a=51338
The Times
November 15, 2007
Meredith suspect 'acted oddly' after killing
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...193971/?
a=23326
Three points of interest from The Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2875165.ece
La Voce Nuova di Perugia, a local paper, said there were no prints in the house of Mr Lumumba, who has produced witnesses to back up his alibi that he was in his bar, Le Chic, all evening. The fact that faeces found in the toilet of the shared bathroom at the cottage were not those of any of the three suspects has reinforced the investigators' theory that a fourth person was involved.
The paper quoted Carmelo Lavorino, a criminologist, as saying the killer could have been a woman since Ms Kercher was stabbed in the throat but not with sufficient force to kill her at once. Instead she bled to death in "slow agony". The fact that the killer then covered the body with the girl's duvet was a gesture which showed either "instinctive repentance by someone who knew her " or "a desire to forget the crime by covering it from sight."
Reports said a witness who had contradicted Mr Lumumba's claim that he had opened his bar "about 5.30 or 6pm" on the evening of the murder had changed his mind. The unnamed witness had told police he had passed the bar about 7pm and seen it closed. He now says he "cannot be 100 per cent sure".
Middie wrote:
"Hi, you all...
Just a question: why the two M. cellular phones was found in Via Sperandio 5bis?... Is a little bit far away, or not?...
So... look, on google earth, the only way you can do, by car, from S. house to A & M house...
(and it's the same from "Le Chic" to the murder house)..."
Could you give the source for this information Middie?
These Excerpts..............
"Amanda Knox, the American student accused of involvement in the murder of Meredith Kercher, calmly went to Italian classes the day before her arrest and wrote an imaginary letter to her mother in which she referred to the killing as a "mystery" and talked about future shopping trips."
"Police said the letter, which has been added to the growing dossier of evidence on the murder, offered "psychological insight" into Ms Knox's state of mind. "Its all about her, not about the victim" one source close to the investigation said." "
"It has also been claimed that Ms Knox boasted to friends about finding the body, and seemed relatively unmoved when first questioned by police. In a statement to police after her return to Britain from Perugia Robyn Butterworth, a close friend of Ms Kercher and like her an exchange student from Leeds University, said Ms Knox appeared "very strange" and "over the top".
"I remember Amanda also kept going on about how she found the body. It was as if she was proud to have been the one who found it," she said. "I just remember thinking at the time at the police station that Amanda's behaviour was very strange. It was as if she wasn't bothered at all."
............ of A's behavior are all classical symptoms of Pathological Narcissistic Personality Disorder, this disassociation from reality, the denial to maintain her fragile ego states, and her complete absence of empathy and empathetic behavior. Instead it was still her crying out for attention.
She went over the "borderline" and snapped in furious indirect anger at M and M suffered the viciousness of this break from reality.
There is only one thing missing for my diagnostic best guess. Why hasn't anyone else who knew A, especially from Seattle, most likely in a fairly close co-dependent relationship, shared that they have seen her suddenly go into an extremely angry outburst over a rather mediative issue?
This most likely originated as others have speculated here, that she suffered acute anxiety from the separation from her father's lack of attention, probably before, and of course after her parent's separation and then never was able to achieve normal separation from her own emotionally dependent relationship with her mother and form her own healthy, or at least functional, identity and ego states. The latter is very general so take it with "that means nothing" because the real details lie in her unconscious with painful but denied suffering. (Remember RS saying he liked to comfort her.)
RobertM was right on with his Jungian and mythological transference within A's brain from M to her mother.
I guess they still have to get the hard investigative and forensic evidence down as to who the other[s]participant[s] was/were in this All Saints Day transitioning into the All Souls Day nightmare.
1)RS?
2)PL?
3)X or the NF = North African
4)any combination of the three choices above
I
The classic popular example of a person with borderline NPD is O.J. Simpson (currently facing kidnapping, armed robbery and burglary charges in Las Vegas, NV.
Very few media reported that OJ had little or no relationship with his father, Jimmy Lee Simpson, b:1920 d:1986, who was a known bisexual drag queen in San Francisco.
To deepen:
Middie | Homepage | 11.15.07 - 5:57 am |
Middie showed it on a map in the URL at his above post. He used the source given by policia of the address of the woman who reported finding the two cell phones in her garden.
That what I understood him to say.
Here, this is the source:
http://download.repubblica.it/
pd...ia_meredith.pdf
Inside is written the address of the house where the cellular phones was been found in the morninng...
for the streets... Google earth
"Paradoxically, though, in our contemporary world — justly called a "Culture of Death" — people often seem to be "in denial" about death. As a culture, we avoid not only avoid coming to grips with personal sin and the consequences of evil, but we deny the spiritual value of the suffering and pain associated with dying, which are a part of the human condition."
from: http://www.wf-f.org/Hallow-Saints.html
really a "lite in casa" with an unhinged flatmate channeling evil spirits on the annual move.
the catholics are fighting to get oct 31st/nov 1st under their control.. ha ha...hallows even is not hallmark even and can't be owned only endured.
the 'black man' was there alright but not Patrick, more like the one Robert M alluded to.
Deepen:
I am sure this distance that Middie so expertly points out and draws on the map is one of the reasons LE seized R's car to examine it forensically for blood traces on the pedals as the press reported.
Sorry Middie, I assumed you were no longer on line. Thanks for the great sleuthing and copy of official document. The first I have seen. Unfortunately for me I do speak, read or write Italian. But I trust your interpretation and presentation.
Thanks.
Middie: Sorry, typo by me:
"I do not speak, read or write Italian."
I am off to find my 'patience hat' and wait for the release of more "officially" leaked facts in this trial by the media.
My guess now, with diminishing confidence is A & R or A,R & X.
It's really the media circus that is fascinating me now.
RIP Meredith Kercher. As your mother so eloquently said to all of us, "you were loved, you are still loved and you always will be loved by us and you will never be forgotten, always remembered, always still with us."
To Meredith's parents and sister, please count me in that "us".
Just up as "breaking news" on the La Repubblica website:
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...ove-
contro.html
A rough translation:
Traces of DNA on Raffaele Sollecito's knife
PERUGIA - Important evidence is about to be declared against two of the suspects, the ex lovebirds Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito. According to indiscretions the scientific exams have found traces of Meredith's DNA on one of the knives taken from Sollecito's residence.
That really was a rough translation - I meant to say "traces of Meredith and Amanda's DNA"...
Thanks Coyotewaits. I will of course support my daughter with the same mix of pride and anxiety that i have at each step toward her independence. It is a parent's joy and burden...
"According to this report the investigators aren't even sure if the motive for the attack was sexual, or even if any sexual violence took place."
"Another little question...
what you think about this algerian guy, named, I think "Youba", filmed by "Matrix"?" Middie
I find these two posts very interesting. In re-reading some of the early news of the crime, it's stated that there was no rape of MK committed, despite the theory of sexual motive. Is it possible in anyone's view that perhaps AK met PL @ the bball court to secure drugs(PCP or the like) that evening, and then went on to her flat to meet with the Algerian "crazy good dancer" and/or RS (they shut off their phones at the same time") for a sexual tryst? Perhaps the extreme sexual experience was 2 men playing rape with one woman, AK, even with RS's knife as a prop. Perhaps MK was angry to arrive home to this and made her feelings known. Could it escalated into a full blown attack from there?
Once the fatal knife blow was delivered, the three, in the effort to cover their tracks, create the appearance of a break in, AND a sexual assault on MK...The Algerian cleaned AK's room where the predominence of his fingerprints were, but was careful not too leave prints in the murder room(albeit leaving one on the pillow case.) Too far-fetched?
The Times: for us poor English speaking only brats:
From Times Online
November 15, 2007
Amanda Knox 'is turning to religion' says chaplain at Perugia prison
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2876378.ece
Golly, my hat is working. Waiting for the translation of La Repubblica by the Times correspondents.
Thanks for post Branston Tang.
as for the shit in the toilet,I think the Boyfriend planted it..No Pun intended...It would not have been to hard to do...You just Go somewhere public,bar,cafe,pub,etc....turn the water off for the toilet,...wait, bag it up.......May not be as far fetched as it seems..The police I am guessing, know,They were trying to put the evidence on the,the boys down below in the apt With blood,from the scene..Just my guess...
coyotewaits...
Here you can find a pretty good (but, I think, partial)traslation of the official document (with addresses inside):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher409.xml
ciao
Have just spent several hours (that I didn't really have!!) catching up on the last couple of days' comments. Interesting that the last few things posted are pretty much where my mind was going- the comments about it being somewhat 'manson-esque', sent me wondering about the possible fourth person again- I just don't see the three already in custody, even with AK's obvious problems and RS's slightly worrying interests, cooking this up and seeing its through to its zenith on their own. It just doesn't seem like the 'chemistry' would be complete, although they are definitely all possible candidates for 'essential ingredients'. PL I think is the weakest possibility where this is concerned and I have also been trying to imagine other explanations for the evidence against him.
Also, in light of the reports from both MK's friends and RS himself that there had been clashes/arguments between AK and MK (Absolutely no surprise to me at all given what has emerged about their vastly differing personalities and priorities in life), I found myself returning to my original thoughts, posted a few days ago, on the tensions and difficulties that arise when young, usually not fully matured, people from vastly differing backgrounds find themselves away from all things familiar and sharing their living quarters/social life. I always felt that any jealousy of MK on the part of AK was much broader than purely sexual, although this aspect would probably have been strong and possibly what AK as most consciously aware of. Rober M- definitely agree with your ideas re mother issues. I read some of the comments on AK's stepfather's myspace, his descriptions of his stepdaughters and wife concerned me a little even though he was clearly trying to joke, and there was one comment from AK that definitely set off a little alarm bell- something about them both being 'losers', so she was going to 'make him hang out with her' ?? Not really evocative of a father-daughter relationship in my mind, and definitely evidence of some sort of percieved rivalry at least in AK's mind.
Also- Seems I am mistaken in thinking that AK's father had also travelled to Italy?) If I am, or if he is in Italy but appears not to have seen her as yet, in light of his said noted absence (or at least distance) on the scene thus far- I think there are as likely to be 'father issues' too... that will also have had an influence on AK's behaviour here- more directly connected to how the situation arose in which Meredith was trapped (Which seems to have all been about AK and her relationship with at least 2 and probably 3 men that night), which then led to the 'mother issues' kicking in acutely (Meredith's actual death).
Just a few thoughts- got to go now but will be back later. Very, very interesting if it is true that the 'fourth person' being sought might have had reason just before this to be angry with PL. Need to do some more reading...
Hmmmmm? A stole one of R's knives and then later replaced it after not cleaning it enough? or ????? A just did it while R loaned her the knife and held the victim....or "R's defense attorney said today that R had reported to his father that one of his favorite knives had been stolen...." and.................. who drove the car while calling the cellphone provider to see how many minutes were left on M's cell phone balance.....?
the Trial by the Italian media continues
Thanks for update Branston
One final thought- AK's comment early on about 'being very afraid of Patrick'. That stuck out to me. Then making statements to the effect that she had tried to frame him - it makes little sense. Patrick, from what has been revealed abut him, not least actually being able to observe him in the video (albeit old) is not appearing to me to be a particularly scary person. But maybe there is someone she is afraid of...someone who she hasn't mentioned as yet due to that...someone who it appears may have washed some clothes in a hurry and then may have skipped the country...who may have been part of the plan (or even the instigator of the plan) to frame Patrick?...May be that the fear she was speaking of as real, but was not of Patrick, but of the person that Patrick was being made fall guy for?
(Disclaimer: the above is pure speculation and I acknowledge that )
Translated from the La Repubblica:
They would be able to be an important turn, the inquiries for the murder of the English student Meredith Kercher, butchered in the night between the first one and past November two. Close environments to the examining magistrates make know that from the finished relief from the scientific police I am emerged "important elements" against two of the investigated for the crime: the fiancés (now former) Amanda Knox and Prompt Raffaele. Ended in prison, together to Patrick Lumumba Diya, because suspected some crime. And now the examinations would have pointed out tracks of the dna is of Meredith that of Amanda, on one of the knives confined to Reminder.
The you of the crime they were submitted to test in the laboratory of the scientific police, to the Pole Tuscolano, to the presence of the consultants of part. To to be examined, shoes from gymnastics, and clothing and other objects. And it seems that the tracks of dna is been found on a knife from kitchen, belonging to the boy. In these same hours it is under the lens of the expert also its computer.
It is increased so in substantial manner the position is of Raffaele that of Amanda. While for now you were not spread news on evidence to load of Lumumba (that stammattina received in prison the visit of a delegation of the I Pick). Even if they the results of some examinations await themselves, after the searches of yesterday in the pub of whom is official: in the local place under I confine the scientific police withdrew a sponge in bath and one I tear, but, affirm the lawyers, not nor blood nor biological liquids was verified.
You may have a point.....erhw.....Prehaps the Boyfriend?....
To: A2 from your post at 11.15.07 - 10:57 am |
I do not know what to think about the Algerian/North African guy. There just hasn't been much info on him. A little came through this morning from a poster just above that said he worked at Le Chic and that PL had fired him Halloween eve.
And the other reports about a NA in CCTV camera view leaving the flat, etc.
So where is he? Has he fled? Is there an APB at all ports and border gates for a seize and detain? Media doesn't tell us.
As to your scenario. I think anything at this point has possibility. Except for me there had to be something going on as a game or RS and perhaps XA wouldn't have been involved. I still think that the game, whatever it was turned into AK snapping and executing the fatal stroke. (At least if it turns out that those two or three were there I am sure RS will go for the "I was trying to stop her, for God's sake). (We should all remember that this little Rs--t changed his story also a couple times. Go with your thoughts on what the game was and if ML walked in on it.
I doubt your scenario on one thought. Why play the game there at the MK flat as they knew she would most probably come home there? If so it was to be at the flat, wouldn't that make it premeditated, at least in planning to force M to participate.
An update to my own question about AK's father and erhw | 11.15.07 - 11:02 am |simliar question:
"Also- Seems I am mistaken in thinking that AK's father had also travelled to Italy?) If I am, or if he is in Italy but appears not to have seen her as yet, in light of his said noted absence (or at least distance) on the scene thus far- I think there are as likely to be 'father issues' too... that will also have had an influence on AK's behaviour here- more directly connected to how the situation arose in which Meredith was trapped (Which seems to have all been about AK and her relationship with at least 2 and probably 3 men that night), which then led to the 'mother issues' kicking in acutely (Meredith's actual death)."
Mr. Knox arrived in Perugia Saturday or Sunday and saw his daughter with AK's mother same day. Only the mother had comments to press. There are press photo of the two together and a statement that they are not taking or answering any questions at this time. Don't recall the article but it was either The Times or The Telegraph, as they are the only two papers I am following.
Also see my post on father and mother issues at:
coyotewaits | 11.15.07 - 9:53 am | http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=31821#38841
~
To Coyotewaits:
I have struggled with the notion that these suspects, especially PL and RS, would risk so much for a "sex game". A true rape of someone they knew would carry a huge price--Certainly MK would have reported them. Murder after rape would cost them even more. If murder was the planned outcome, I would think that it would've been committed in a more careful manner. To the contrary, the murder scene was strewn with DNA and other eveidence, and as far as I can tell, no rape of MK was actually committed. I think the panic at the realization of the murder may have prompted hectic attempts to paint a picture of random rape/break in.
As to why AK would choose to play the game at the flat she shared w MK, I don't think AK would much care that MK might return. Given the strained relationship between MK and AK, they may not have shared/known each others schedules. And even if AK knew MK might return, she may have enjoyed the prospect of defying and annoying her, after MK chastised her for bringing home men.
I still think of the suspects that we know as unlikely of premeditated violence, but believe that given the right circumstances, substances and panic, they may have descended to violence . AK's purported propensity for rage, along w the appropriate high and a weapon readily available...And the guys at that point were too far in to do anything other than to try to cover the mess up.
UPDATE....reports say...traces of Meredith and A's DNA have been found on one of the knives examined, which was taken from S's house. It is believced to be a non serrated kitchen knife
Sorry, just seen that I'm behind again; there's no stopping the coyote.
Reports say Meredith's dna on blade and A's nearer the handle. Yet to be ascertained whether the kitchen knife belongs to R or A and M, but it was taken from S's house.
At what point, in the face of mounting scientific evidence, will AK or RS, confess? Is there an Italian version of a plea bargain?
Any thoughts?
I'm no expert but I think there's an unofficial version of plea bargain. I'm sure someone who knows more about it will fill you in later...
I wouldn't imagine RS is being advised to confess just yet...
erhw | 11.15.07 - 11:09 am | wrote:
"One final thought- AK's comment early on about 'being very afraid of Patrick'. That stuck out to me. Then making statements to the effect that she had tried to frame him - it makes little sense. Patrick, from what has been revealed abut him, not least actually being able to observe him in the video (albeit old) is not appearing to me to be a particularly scary person. But maybe there is someone she is afraid of...someone who she hasn't mentioned as yet due to that...someone who it appears may have washed some clothes in a hurry and then may have skipped the country...who may have been part of the plan (or even the instigator of the plan) to frame Patrick?...May be that the fear she was speaking of as real, but was not of Patrick, but of the person that Patrick was being made fall guy for?"
erhw: I do not think your hypotheses is too speculative at all. I too have been baffled by the two comments AK made when first implicating LP and saying she was afraid of him, then later being sorry she had implicated him, while now sitting in jail where NA can't get to her.
I am trying to think my way through a couple hypothesis myself.
1) RS is not involved at the house except post homicide and that NA and AK pulled it off with AK lifting a knife from RS' flat. However, I have trouble letting go of RS still, even though we have not seen any real hard forensic evidence against him yet. Still waiting, maybe some later today or tomorrow.
2) I can see NA with access to PL's old cell phone with old SIM that had been transfered temporarily to the new phone. Let me clarify. PL bought new cell in mid Oct. That means new phone & IMEI #. However rather than taking a new temporary number for the new phone he waits until is old number is ported (transfered to his new carrier and receives a new SIM for his new phone.
But getting impatient for the sometimes slow process of transferring number from one carrier to the next he on 01 Nov evening or 02 Nov morning decides to transfer is old SIM from old phone into the new phone to use until he gets his new SIM with his old number but new & different carrier.
He does this at the worst opportune time but does so innocuously. The judge notes that now is phone has a new IMEI and challenges him as to why. Instead of LP being savvy or having friends who are cell phone savvy, he just doesn't know what the judge is asking, and just explains he had gotten a new cell phone. He is not believed, his lawyer doesn't even understand what an IMEI is, so he looks sort of self implicating.
In the meantime NA grabs the old cell phone, maybe just stealing it (not to frame LP or ???) because he sees it laying around and thinks he'll use it because the N just fired him. Little does he know he can't use it because there is no SIM in it. However there are still two calls you can make with a SIM less cell phone. 112 emergency/911 in U.S. and 611 in U.S. (to the ca
...to clarify....reports say the knife with dna on it was found at RS's house, but it's not one from his collection...its a kitchen knife. There seems to be some doubt however, as to if this knife belongs to him, or was from AK's house.
In Italy plea bargain (patteggiamento) exists only for offenses carrying a maximum prison term of 5 years. However a full confession might get a lighter sentence.
erhw | 11.15.07 - 11:09 am | Continued.
However there are still two calls you can make with a SIM less cell phone. 112 emergency/911 in U.S. and 611 in U.S. (to the carrier customer service).
Phone is powered on, NA carries it to AK flat, cell tower detects its ping.
I know that is convoluted, but if I was LP defense attorney I might go for it.
Trouble is I can poke holes in both my own hypotheses. Like the SIM transfer comes after the homicide and LP still has two phones, not missing the stolen one for a while so how does NA get the old phone back. Or does LP no longer have two phones because he gave the old one to NA when he fired him (or threw it in the trash). NA then doesn't need to return it, just needs to wait for his own new SIM.
So you can see I am having problems trying to get LP at the scene and trying to get NA at the scene again with no hard forensics on either guy, YET!
And without the NA in custody they have no DNA from him to type him against the DNA evidence. Unless they know where he lives or used to live and sweep his flat. However, if he did sweep clean AK's room, then he obviously swept his own flat, meaning he's DNA savvy.
Hole: yeah, who says he missing. Maybe he's not the NA LE is looking for.
What say yourself!
All I know at this point is somebody or somebodies had to be there with AK and MK. Two but not three is my hunch, just a hunch. So just waiting for more hard forensics to be announced, i.e., leaked.
I still definitely think one was RS, hard hunch. The other, flip a coin at this point. By the time you return and read this post we may already know. If, you force me to bet, my bet is now on NA.
I'll give you all a break (relief) from my rambling. I need a break myself falling all over myself here. be back much, much later.
Shoeprint under duvet,is pretty strong evidence against the Boyfriend.........
Thanx Eric.
Being ignorant about this stuff, can someone help me out...
The footprint in Meredith's room, the police said was identical to R's. (pattern size)R's team say there's no trace of blood on these trainers. Can you completely get rid of it? (sorry if this is a dumb question)
The idea that R wasn't there that night but helped clean up the day atfer. I have problems imagining this conversation.
A Hi love, i've got a little problem at the house, Meredith is dead and I wanted to clean up a bit. Will you give me a hand?
R Yeah, sure.
R said recently that he 'liked to be made to feel important' by A which I thought might be their way of preparing the ground for this.
...I thought the same meman..but are we wrong?
Perhaps the intentions of the three known suspects was to set up a situation in which they would be able to enjoy the much-reported "extreme sensations" in a sexual threesome.
Because it's also thought that Knox was engineering a situation in which Lumumba could "have" Kercher, their stoned reasoning might have been that it would be a hoot if Kercher walked in on Knox getting spit roast (there's an extreme sensation) and she would probably cast off her clothes and join in--another extreme sensation.
Because things perhaps didn't go as planned--maybe Kercher didn't willingly join in--the sex games took a different direction. But on the other hand, there may have been willingness on Kercher's part up to a point. However, at some point, either accidentally or deliberately, wounding occurred, including the wound which proved to be fatal.
Some people have commented on the substances that were consumed: it's difficult to believe that hashish would have contributed to the violent turns the proceedings took. Perhaps mushrooms or some other hallucinogenics were involved. It seems that things got out of control as the situation developed into something that could hardly be joked about over breakfast the following morning (a threesome, or a foursome maybe, perhaps with the odd blush, but wounding and non-consensual sex play is clearly taking things too far).
Hopefully the human hairs found in Kercher's hand will clarify who was in the room, or will muddy the waters further if the hair is not from one of the three known suspects.
I know there have been reports of Kercher being annoyed by Knox's tendency to leave the toilet unflushed, but at this point I would still be unsurprised to learn that the material in the lavatory was passed by Kercher following (ie due to) some of the activities taking place: perhaps it was this that led her to decline to participate further, if indeed that was how the series of events unfolded.
OK, can't resist my last scenario.
RS is telling truth. AK left him at the Plaza saying she's going to work. Instead she hooks up with NA for their own assignation, meaning she doesn't give a f--k emotionally for RS (empathize, gee wiz its only been two week and the two weeks is just that so she can stay somewhere that she doesn't have to be around that stupid bitch MK).
NA & AK meet up, get drugs. AK goes to flat. NA follows. They're doing their drug and sex thing. MK walks in, tries to avoid them, shudders when she see the NA strange guy. Goes to bathroom, sees NA shit in the bowl, assumes and freaks that it is AK's shit again, pounds on AK door or bursts in and chastises AK.
AK goes off on MK, the fight moves to the kitchen, then MK flees to her room, but AK follows close behind not letting her separate and be alone, i.e., MK doesn't have chance to close and lock the door. Meanwhile AK has grabbed serrated knife from the kitchen and swipes at MK neck twice, hits her several times or maybe NA has entered the fray and is holding and restraining MK are throwing her to the floor where AK pounces on MK head turning it to the side with extreme force of one hand then .......
Suddenly AK sees her mother, loses it in psychotic borderline flip and in complete rage plunges the knife into the neck. Blood gushes, mess......fill in the blanks.
AK and NA decide to make it look like a breakin and rape from the guys on the first floor, and spend the next two hours trying to remove their own tracks while NA carefully wipes his tracks from AK room. Panicked himself he forgets to flush the toilet behind him or even wipe down the bathroom.
NA leaves to dump phones (and to himself) get the f--k out of Perugia. AK cleans knife but takes it with her to hide at RS. AK calmly tells RS she has been at work and is glad to be home in his arms. Rest of story has already been told by AK and RS as to Friday morning, when AK returns to flat, then goes back to RS to tell him something is fishy at the house.
Alternative: It's RS not NA, and who knows whose faeces or all three as A2 speculated. No sex games, just plain anger out of control.
Bye
At this point of time,I am sure either Amanda,or the boyfriend has made some type of plea confession..I am betting on Amanda..It sounds like they have a wealth of evidence,at the horrific crime scene..With the hair clenched in poor Merdith's bloody hand being a key component..The shoe print I would have to say,would be pretty hard to explain,on RS part..The knife,is key also,but the main goal of the police ,is trying to get the confession.(Which I think Amanda has given them)to match up with the boyfriend committing the act...Once again I do believe it was only those 2 involved..With prehaps the bar-owner arriving later,after the slaughter...
coyoto...doesnt make sense..your senerio..would have an inocent person fleeing away,and not toward the police with this type of info?....They were just innocent parties....No crime charge
...also traces of A and R's dna found on a 'sponge' and cloth found in a bucket at A's house.
To clarify again, traces of A were found on the lower part of the blade, near the handle.
coyote, your last scenario is logically consistent, assuming NA was wearing the same Nike shoes that RS has, or that RS entered the room before the police for some reason.
It would be really interesting to know if either Amanda or RS,had any scratch marks,or cuts on there body............
i have some experience with forensics - and my understanding of shoe prints is that the wearing down of the treads is what is important (i.e., it's almost like a fingerprint-- no two people wear down their shoes in exactly the same way).
yep,thats why the shoe is very important....
And you can bet,RS lawyers are working big time on that,shoe evidence....
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 1:38 pm | #
"coyoto...doesnt make sense..your senerio..would have an inocent person fleeing away,and not toward the police with this type of info?....They were just innocent parties....No crime charge"
meman2: Thanks for punching a hole in my wall. Makes sense if fight started and AK started waving knife, that non-participating NA (or RS) would either try to stop AK or get the hell out with a cell phone and call 112 or just plain flee.
The 'Other" had to have vested interest in staying/being there and engaging MK.
I was trying to take the seed A2 planted in my mind and make it work. Thanks to you it didn't. Couldn't have been AK alone then calling for help, because there was no call. Her's & R's were off the whole night.
So now I am back to original hypothesis. AK & RS wanted "extreme sensations" picked ML to play with, she refused to cooperate, they didn't let up, making the game more and more real, got out of hand.......AK still snapped..
maybe NA there and playing Dungeons & Dragons also, maybe not...gotta explain feces in toilet....and AK room with no fingerprints
maybe RS wiped it down.
At least we have AK wielding the knife with her DNA and MK's DNA.
I'm not sure AK will confess or be advised to confess or even will be able to confess. She is possibly in disassociated denial, IOW she only has bad dreams and partial memories and can't bring the full memory to consciousness but does have partial memory of it. She will need to be told what happened. They her defense will go for temporary insanity plea. How is that treated in Italian criminal jurisprudence system, if allowed at all?
Thanks, looking forward to what you guys come with.
I already gave what I thought was a plausable senerio for the shit,about 30 post ago....That is..only if it was Human shit..........But who is to say ,other than the police if it is?
One additional note maybe you guys can help me out with.
I just cannot see RS being interesting in game play with AK & MK with another guy whether LP or NA. What am I missing in my not seeing him into that? AK's seductive influence over him.
I also can't see MK interested in either LP (I mean look at him, MK would be interested?) or NA, possibly one of AK weirdo' she brought home. And then RS trying to make it a three way leading to resistance....or the scene AK states. They LP and Mk went into MK's room and closed the door. Doesn't compute.
Has anyone come up with a logical scenario explaining the feces with out a 4th person on the scene. I mean I can't imagine it being there all day without MK noticing it before she left or after she came home?
The reason I came up with the scenario that coyotewaits described a bit ago is because I still think that if they forced MK into their "game" it constituted rape. I still believe that unless very waisted on PCP or the like, they wouldve known that a rape would land them in prison. I cannot imagine that they would risk prison for a game. So, while I agree that my scenario is incorrect, I can't make sense of the other scenario either.
Just read this:
According to Italian newspaper Corriere dell Sera, investigators have also found DNA belonging to Knox and Sollecito on a sponge and cleaning cloth found in Meredith's apartment on the night of her murder.
Like the knife, both cleaning objects appear to have had blood washed off them.
The shit,could have been planted..no pun once again...We know they tried to plant blood evidence,in the boys flat below..Why couldnt RS have planted the shit too..Go to a bar,cafe,pub,what have you..Bring your baggy,enter the restroom,shut the water off for stool,and wait..or a port-a-pot.....They were desperate criminals,and you can bet they were not thinking like masterminds.
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 2:12 pm | #
"I already gave what I thought was a plausable senerio for the shit,about 30 post ago....That is..only if it was Human shit..........But who is to say ,other than the police if it is?"
In other words RS planted it? He would have to leave go find it, come back and dump it in. Yes, chemical analysis and DNA analysis on the feces would definitely tell LE that it was human feces, which as far as I am assuming it was, or if it was some other animals feces. There is no doubt in that.
How's this? They when downstairs to plant blood in the guys flat. Is this now fact?
RS or AK sees feces in one of the toilets. Puts 2 + 2 together to = wow more convincing evidence and takes it upstairs, dump.
There is an answer some where. Only other answer is this was totally premeditated right to the point of bringing it with them. Again this doesn't logically compute for me.
This only leads right back to the scenario, RS wasn't there and NA was and AK and NA decided to do a forceful scene with MK and AK took it too far, but NA is now in the thick of it.
Lastly help me how with a three of them scene just cooling on say PCP laced hashish when MK comes home, and now they get sexually creative, with Mr. X taking the lead and being spurned. IOW the original 3 of them are just drugging and cooling. They do not see the potential for fun until MK unexpectedly shows up which AK had no idea she would.
With this scenario, why at AK's flat. Why not at RS's flat where they for sure wouldn't be interrupted. Somehow MK had to be a target for something, whether pre planned or spur of the moment. Yes?
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 2:28 pm | #
"The shit,could have been planted..no pun once again...We know they tried to plant blood evidence,in the boys flat below..Why couldnt RS have planted the shit too..Go to a bar,cafe,pub,what have you..Bring your baggy,enter the restroom,shut the water off for stool,and wait..or a port-a-pot.....They were desperate criminals,and you can bet they were not thinking like masterminds."
I can only imagine this scenario happening one way. Because with so much to do in cleaning up why would they risk taking the time to go to a cafe/bar/public toilet, turn the water off, wait....while 17 other people first come in to just pee. Sorry can't by this scene.
Here's what I could by. They drive to dump the phones (make it look like theft, weird while they are trying to make it look like the guys downstairs did it, and need to pee so bad before getting back that they stop in public toilet. Ak see shit in a bowl and the light bulb goes on. That little shit hated my shit, what a great cover idea. Done.
Your "go find it idea", I just can't see it for the time involved element and that they couldn't possibly be that creative given what has happened and that they could pull it off, unless of course they actually stayed up all night brainstorming their cover up and cleaning up. Maybe they did.
They being Amanda and RS,were probably pretty fucked up..We all seem to agree on that..In their twisted minds,whether drug induced,or just in their twisted minds,they couldn't take no for an answer....Date-rape senerio......It probably started out quite tame,prehaps giggly.. at one point....But Like the Judge has stated....It got out of hand.........Who isn't to Say no one left the scene and returned that same night.....meaning,my therory on the shit gathering...
What's interesting is that the Italian media is now referring exclusively to RS & AK as "the suspects".
Patrick seems to be the forgotten man in all of this.
yes....and I do think they are the only 2.....to!
On the phone call,that the police had tapped into...The one Where Amanda said something on the Lines of "I can't Handle this anymore"....or something along that line....Was there any report on RS reply to it?....Or How he may have reponded to Amanda?..........I think the police,are trying to really put the squeeze,to the nuts,of this lad..
The Italian news agency Ansa reported that Knox's lawyers, Luciano Ghirga and Carlo Della Vedova, asked for a review of the case for for detaining her this morning for reasons they plan to outline in the hearing.
The defense lawyers for each of the three detained in the murder have until Saturday to request the review of the case. Under Italian law, once the request for review is made, the prosecutor has five days to present his evidence for their detention and then a new set of three judges have up to another 10 days to meet, examine the evidence and decide whether those detained should be released.
abc news 11-15-07
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Intern...=3870831&
page=1
Coyote......are you trying to tell me,that they actually commited the murder,and then went back to RS place,and went to sleep?..Is that why they couldn't run around?.........They had all night to try to figure how they were going to attempt to get out of this horrible crime that they committed........I can bet you....They didn't sleep at all that night.................
I found this little gem from Robert M. earlier in the thread:
"R having supposedly just called his sister, a police lieutenant, to ask her what should he do [despite what the prelim judge wrote, this point, that R called sister, has not been challenged in print]."
If that call did actually happen, will R's sister be called as a witness at some stage? Is withholding information a crime in Italy?
And how about all these leaks to the press - surely they have to draw the line somewhere?
An hour ago I was on the treadmill at the gym thinking very similar things to what I read above...
It really does seem unlikely that three people would participate in or consent to such a crime - unless they were on some superdrug.
So probably there were just two: knox + sollecito/algerian.
Two people are all you need to hold a person down - if one is threatening with a knife.
Concerning the faeces, I remember there being a discrepancy in Knox and Sollecito's statements concerning this. [Or did I just dream this? - I hope not!] If I remember correctly Knox said there was shit in the toilet, but Sollecito said there wasn't. Of course the police also saw it there.
Does anyone remember this?
coyotewaits,
some links about carabinieri and polizia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Pol...olizia_di_Stato
The time he(RS) called his sister,was already noted..It was while the police were already there about the cellphone
At the end of the day, this is probably going to turn out to be little more than a case of two kindred souls, with a predisposition to committing evil deeds, finding one another at the "perfect" place and time. Chances are, together they acted on fantasies that would have been left as fantasies had the other not been added to the deadly equation.
Yes, I am referring to the two love birds. I believe it begins and ends there. Anyone else involved may be guilty as an accessory, but I believe the onus lies on Amanda and Raffaele.
Law enforcement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Law...cement_in_Italy
about Polizia Postale, it is a branch of Polizia, they investigate on computer, postal or phone crimes.
If the reports are correct and the forensic evidence continues to hardened up against RS then my bet is he cops a plea confession that it was all AK's idea, that AK did it all, he tried to stop it, she threatened him with the knife, she laced his reefer with PCP unknown to him, on and on and on....so he finally panicked under her influence and tried to hide it for her sake, cause he cared for her.....or course he doesn't now. "Please, judges I throw myself at the mercy of the court, but I am all but barely guilty.
AK stays with insane at the time plea.
LE forgot to test both for harder drugs when detained on 06 Nov, so prosecution has hard time against the insanity and I was under her 'black magic' spell at the time, took nothing more than reefer, no alcohol.
However, that guess is based on how the system works in the US, so I have to defer to the insight of Eric and others as to whether this strategy would make sense.
Still waiting for Eric or another in the know to log on and to help define how such pleadings go down under Italian law.
Never forget, "that if the glove doesn't fit, you can't convict". O.J. with great defense attorneys and a sympathetic stacked jury, and the LA district attorneys office with inept prosecutors beat a lot of DNA and other damning forensic and eye witness evidence to get an acquittal.
Of course, if this trial by media were going on in USA as it is here in Italy, the judge assigned to the case would long ago have put a gag order on the district attorney office and all defense attorneys and thrown anyone in jail for violating it by going on TV to plead their case or by leaking evidence. The fair trial legal concept in America USA is sacrosanct, and any excess publicity that potentially could bias the jury pool would be stopped cold before it led to dismissal of the case.
But this is Italy. What say, on all this publicity. How can one be guaranteed a fair trial, or is that not an important concept?
For the sake of Meredith and her family and friends, I do hope that the jurors (and judges) in this case will be a lot more unbiased than the jurors here were in the OJ Simpson or many other cases here. Though at the same time I hope the accused and charged will have a fair and open trial given their ages and mental states whatever it may be determined were before and during the crime.
Well said Luke...Two people who lived,what everyone that knew them said,were perfect humans...And both living thousands and thousand miles from each other..Then they meet...I am staying home
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 2:51 pm | #
"yes....and I do think they are the only 2.....to!"
Yes, I am going with meman2 on this. It now explains AK's second twice stated statement. She was trying to cover for RS accusing LP as being there.
Then she reversed because of all things, a bit of remorse and "empathy" flowed in when she saw and was with her mother. She recanted saying she was sorry that she implicated LP, but she still covered for herself and RS going back to her first story.
This fascinates me that there is a showing of empathy here on the surface meaning, she was fond of LP and not just for giving her a job, but for probably befriending her in a quiet way. And it comes about when she is with her mother, still alive after she eliminated her symbolically.
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 2:58 pm | #
"On the phone call,that the police had tapped into...The one Where Amanda said something on the Lines of "I can't Handle this anymore"....or something along that line....Was there any report on RS reply to it?....Or How he may have reponded to Amanda?..........I think the police,are trying to really put the squeeze,to the nuts,of this lad..
I've always wondered this too, and have not seen here or in the press on any reply from him.
My added question. Is this so called "wire tapping" of a non wired phone conversation admissible in court. I have my suspicions it will not be, just I think it was Eric that said that pre investigatory interviews and interrogations without the attorneys presence are not admissible. I would suspect the carabinieri uses this technique to determine where the focus of their investigation should be directed, same as here, though US has the Miranda rights, to inform first that the person being interrogated has the right to remain silent and a right to attorney before any interview can proceed. One must waive their rights first.
Thanks to Middie for posting the excellent links.
Is the origin of the knive found in RSs apartment undisputed?
I think it has to be a kitchen knive. I can't think of a collector of knives who borrows one of his knives to AK for either killing or threaten MK, or some other reason. Suppose its a kitchen knive, it it from AKs or RSs flat?
The fact that they "cleaned up" (tried to remove evidence (fingerprints etc.); simulated a burglary (bloody fingerprints on the wall)) speaks for no intention to kill her and I'm not at all sure about the rape/sex party thing. I rather think it was a fight between MK and a 2nd/3rd party, hence the need to remove all the evidence caused by accident. The fact that they were stoned and therefore wanted to have sex with MK or rape her and then killed her when it got out off hand contradicts the fact that they were able to keep a clear head after the killing.
There must have been the absolute NEED to "clean up". No one would clean up just for fun, since everyone knows that not doing it meticulously, leaves even more traces.
Also something must have happened inside AKs room.
One other thing: AK asked her mum to come to Perugia and to go shopping with her. Thats a strange behaviour if she has nothing to with it.
I think its showing how, in the moment of great despair, she is going back to her embryonic phase.
damian | 11.15.07 - 1:41 pm | #
"...also traces of A and R's dna found on a 'sponge' and cloth found in a bucket at A's house.
To clarify again, traces of A were found on the lower part of the blade, near the handle."
She cut herself ever so slightly or scraped her skin with the blade, no blood or wound that can be seen, just a break/scratch on her skin, DNA always left then. Didn't clean knife with bleach. Not educated in forensics enough to know. Water will not do it, even some time with soap.
> Has anyone come up with a logical scenario explaining the feces with out a
> 4th person on the scene. I mean I can't imagine it being there all day
> without MK noticing it before she left or after she came home?
I have mentioned on more than one occasion in this thread that I would not be surprised to discover that the fecal matter in the toilet was deposited by Kercher following (i.e. as a result of) sexual activity involving anal play.
It wouldn't matter if there were two, three or twelve persons in the house: stimulation of the lower sphincter would quite likely lead to defecation, along with the passing of other matter (objects inserted into the anus, or blood from tissue damage, or semen if someone had ejaculated into the anal passage).
Deepen,about the shopping....I understood it as,her mother had known,that Merdith had been murdered...This was in the very early stages of the crime...The reason for her flight over was for comfort to Amanda....She had no Idea,her daughter was involved, until she was already in flight...
todger, hmm... what do you mean by " was deposited" ?
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 3:10 pm | #
"Coyote......are you trying to tell me,that they actually commited the murder,and then went back to RS place,and went to sleep?..Is that why they couldn't run around?.........They had all night to try to figure how they were going to attempt to get out of this horrible crime that they committed........I can bet you....They didn't sleep at all that night................."
Not at all. What I am implying is that they had so much work to do just at the scene, cleaning placing false evidence, etc. that they would be both physically and emotionally exhausted by mid morning, and yes they would then go crash, dumping the cell phones a long way away as another diversion.
Also try this hypothesis on the feces. Depending on when the NA? and mystery woman were seen in the laundry mat. When was witness suppose to see them.
AK & RS finally leave. They lock MK door with flat looking fairly orderly.
Some how AK gets in touch with NA (RS land line phone, drove directly to his flat, AK goes in " I need some help Mr. Dance Partner friend, could you come with me to my flat and pick up my laundry and do it for me in the morning at the mat. I will meet you later to pick it up at such day and time. Just call me on your cell when you're done. I have to run out of town for an emergency."
NA either goes to flat to meet AK or they drive there together still during the dark. NA goes upstairs with AK to get laundry. "Foxy may I use your bathroom." "Yes of course, please do." NA doesn't flush. NA leaves with laundry. RS being already downstairs or in car, this is why he thinks the toilet is clean as he left it after the clean up. AK doesn't notice the non-flush anyway.
That how LE finds it in the next early afternoon.
This covers sighting of man leaving or arriving but thought that was at around 23:30 though they could have bedroom door closed by even by then.
When did the laundry mat incident happen, do not want to scan all posts to find answer again. Know it is here somewhere. Either way, the critical time is his pickup of the laundry not the actual wash time. The pick up time was still in the evening/morning hours?
AK may have paid NA to help, he had just been fired.
Punch a hole in my wall, please. My punch is the laundry mat pair could obviously not even be NA and ?. Eye witnesses are notoriously inaccurate.
Also figure leaving flat at 23:30 might not be NA and might not even be significant. Still have to get the dump there someway.
It is odd, they said that they would have dna evidence today including the hair in merediths hand. All we are getting is the knife report, which I don't know how relevant it really is cause it is not being stated that this knife could be the one that was used to murder Meredith.
meman2, yeah ... but think of it, theres one thing we can say: AK and MK weren't best friends. Although the death was obviously shocking to her, to ask her mother to fly from Seattle to Italy to just comfort her ... is a little over-reacted IMO.
Remember, it was her wish to not be with her family during the time in Italy. It was also her wish to show to her family that she is able to act and decide alone, that she is matured.
From La Repubblica:
there are traces of Meredith's Dna on one of the knives taken by the police in Sollecito's house. It is presumably blood, left on the blade even if this have been accurately cleaned with bleach. (...)
Amanda's blood was nearer to the handle - maybe she has wounded herself while she was washing the knife - while the victim's biological trace was on the point of the blade. "That knife was part of Sollecito's kitchen where as it comes up Meredith had never been" say the investigators.
chris: exactly.
However, what indeed is suspicious, is that RSs whole apartment including the knive was cleaned with bleach.
Why would you do that?
This is the evidence against amanda at the moment then:
-cctv footage
-thumbprint on MK's face
-dna on the end of a kitchen knife found at RS's
- keys to the flat of the boys downstairs, who's walls had blood on them.
- had disputes with MK
- lying to the postal police
- and change of story several times
-does anyone have more that have been missed?
Against Rafaelle:
-shoeprint
- the knife with MK's dna found at his house
- tissue or sponge with ak's phone
-his phone rang at around (10) but records show he did not answer it- maybe he wasn't at home?
Against Patrick
-the mobile phone thing and lying to police
-can't account for whereabout between 8-10
Against X/NA
-an unidentified fingerprint found in room
-cctv catches a man running from the scene
-NA man seen next morning acting strange and washing clothes
-algerian man shown above (youba) who was fired from le chic, would have known both patrick and amanda
Have I gotten anything wrong or missing anything?
From this it appears that Amanda and a fourth person were involved, but my bet is that it wasn't 'sex games' but a domestic dispute getting out of hand- with the drugs being a factor in it.
sorry typo above, i mean 'tissue or sponge with ak's blood'
but why would she bring the knife to her boyfriends house ? it doesn't make sense. and they aren't saying that this knife matches the similar wounds on meredith
yes it is definitely alarming that meredith dna on tip of knife, but still it is very odd.
Francesco | 11.15.07 - 3:28 pm | #
some links about carabinieri and polizia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Pol...olizia_di_Stato
Francesco:
Thanks very much for pointing me to the answers to my question about the Polizia in Italy. If I had had my wits about me I should have googled or wiki'd them before I even asked the question.
Thanks for being patient and tolerating my idiocy.
deepen, hmmm i didn't see that RS cleaned his whole apartment with bleach! was AK's room cleaned with bleach too?
Deepen....I think Amanda knew she was in deep doo-doo,I am not saying that she knew she was going to be caught for this crime,at that moment.But I am pretty sure she was feeling empty and scared ..I am guessing, she needed someone for the emotional support from someone she could really trust...Who else but family?
(3) wounds to accomplish what should only take one... I have a plausible thought on this.
The(2)shallow wounds are likely due to the tentative acts of a person who realized almost instantly that they were in over their head. It doesn't speak of rage. 30 stabs, that's rage.
The shallow wounds are also quite possibly the product of an attacker who lacked physical strength, likely a female.
The (3rd) wound proved to be fatal. I would venture to suggest that there is a viable reason that the 3rd would was deep enough to kill; the same person wasn't responsible for all (3) wounds.
I don't completely believe that this was a torture-styled killing or as sexually motivated as the media has made it out to be. That's just what sells papers.
I also don't believe that two people would bother to rape, torture, and murder a victim, only to afford them the decency of covering their body with a duvet. The duvet certainly wasn't hiding anything, but it most likely was an act of contrition by the killer(s)
Draw from that what you may....
Recap-
(2) superficial wounds, made by a tentative person of inferior strength.
(1) wound that brought about the victim's fatality. (possibly by a separate person.)
Body covered as an act of contrition,which is a sign of remorse, as well as an indicator that the victim knew her killer(s.)
what was used to put blood in apt downstairs? anyone know?
chris, AKs room apparently not. At least not with bleach.
Telegraph says:
"Police said that the whole of Sollecito's house had been cleaned with bleach and that tests carried out with ultraviolet lights at the house on Tuesday did not reveal any other evidence."
I am guessing the whole house being cleaned with bleach,is just a translated issue...............
Agreed with the above Luke.
Why would a stranger, after killing and potentially sexually abusing his victim in such a callous way, bother to cover her body with a duvet?
I think it points to the fact it was smeone who knew her who either felt bad, or could not bear to see the body.
Also, what do you all make of the phone call from MK's phone at 10ish? This is probably a stupid question, but could that phone be tested for fingerprints or DNA? And do these tests show which fingerprints are om 'top' or made earlier than others?
I have been thinking that meredith was struggling and moving her neck, which had a knife to it. By accident she was wounded and killed, as meredith moved unexpectedly, thus the knife being helf to her throat cut into her.
is that a ridiculous theory?
But apparently the wound was quite deep- she would have had to move ehr head with a great deal of force in that case.
No i don't think it's ridiculous, but I don't think an accidental move of the head would have been enough to cause a wound deep enough to kill her..
Chri...Not really...Like the Judge said" Got out Of Hand"
Chris,
That could very well explain the (2) shallow/tentative wounds. Not ridiculous at all and the thought had crossed my mind. The (3rd) was doubtfully an accident though.
meman2, thats what I think too.
I wonder what her mother thought of the whole thing when Amanda told her about the death.
todger | Homepage | 11.15.07 - 3:58 pm posted:
"I have mentioned on more than one occasion in this thread that I would not be surprised to discover that the fecal matter in the toilet was deposited by Kercher following (i.e. as a result of) sexual activity involving anal play."
"It wouldn't matter if there were two, three or twelve persons in the house: stimulation of the lower sphincter would quite likely lead to defecation, along with the passing of other matter (objects inserted into the anus, or blood from tissue damage, or semen if someone had ejaculated into the anal passage)."
todger: I respectfully disagree with prejudice. Here's why.
LE has DNA samples not only from the three detained suspects, but from the victim. Even though the press reported that the feces didn't match any of the suspects, I would be certain the LE also typed the feces against MK DNA and that also was negative or the press would have explained whose feces it was (MK's).
Also they would have known by DNA sample or even chemical celluar samples that the feces was from some other large mammal not human. It has come from some other human being than the four aforementioned bowels.
chris | 11.15.07 - 4:34 pm posted:
"It is odd, they said that they would have dna evidence today including the hair in merediths hand. All we are getting is the knife report, which I don't know how relevant it really is cause it is not being stated that this knife could be the one that was used to murder Meredith."
DNA is not required for hair comparison analysis. This is chemical dye testing and microscope color. texture, diameter, etc comparision. Hair analysis has been around a long time, DNA only since the mid late 90's.
I also have expected the hair analysis to be back by today. Maybe to be extra confident they have elected to do a confirming DNA analysis on the hair.
Remember, it is quite possible that the hair in her hand was her own, grasped by a clutching, grasping hand as she reached agonizing for the deep wound on her neck and caught some of her hair. If in fact this would be the case, they may just be ignoring it for now, because with the appeals being filed for each of the suspects to be released the prosecutors are trying to get their ducks in a row quickly. A2 posted a few posts back in the ABC News link the deadlines coming up soon for the appeal process.
Also DNA comparative typing is not just an overnight or weekend process. So recently gathered items of possible evidence, e.g., from RS flat rather than the crime scene are still being analyzed and prioritized for analysis.
I must say though I am surprised even amazed at how quickly they are performing this task at their Rome laboratories.
US labs should take notice. Or maybe this case has the highest priority. Damian, Eric, or other locals may be able to weigh in on that question.
for absolutely no real reason, I think that RS is not guilty. I don't like him much, I find it freaky and offensive his reading material, and his comments on his blog, etc...
But basically, I think that he is really a shletered, spoiled and naive dope. But, I do not think he was involved in the murder at all.
Chris..Pretty sure the shoe print puts him at the scene of the crime...The probable murder weapon at his place......He is guilty
deepen | 11.15.07 - 4:38 pm posted
"meman2, yeah ... but think of it, theres one thing we can say: AK and MK weren't best friends. Although the death was obviously shocking to her, to ask her mother to fly from Seattle to Italy to just comfort her ... is a little over-reacted IMO.
Remember, it was her wish to not be with her family during the time in Italy. It was also her wish to show to her family that she is able to act and decide alone, that she is matured."
deepen: Wow, were those kind of comments you seem to be paraphrasing on her MySpace/Facebook? I never did get to see her blogs or find the mirror site of them. They all seem to be gone. Does anyone have the mirror site link for her blog? I have a copy of Chris Mellas', her stepfather, on my hard drive before his was shut down.
I think that a lot of the leaks to the press are meant to intimidate those involved. Maybe the hair thing and this knife thing is really about trying to get them to talk, not really solid evidence-- but enough teasers to scare someone into spilling the beans.
Well, the evidence seems to strongly indicate that RS was at least involved in the coverup.
My queston, then, is that if he was only involved in the coverup, wouldn't it be in his interest to admit to that, tell everything he knows, and avoid taking the rap for the murder itself.
I think he has to deny everything precisely because he was involved in the murder. If he admits to details about the coverup, it will also implicate him in the murder.
Coyote...This site has a mirror link
In reply to Andy T's question:
Concerning the faeces, I remember there being a discrepancy in Knox and Sollecito's statements concerning this. [Or did I just dream this? - I hope not!] If I remember correctly Knox said there was shit in the toilet, but Sollecito said there wasn't. Of course the police also saw it there. Does anyone remember this?
| 11.15.07 - 3:24 pm | #
It's all here in the original legal document (in Italian):
http://download.repubblica.it/
pd...ia_meredith.pdf
You're right though - the two lovebirds couldn't agree on what was or wasn't in the toilet.
But I would think that by now we would have gotten the details of the shoe, if they were 100 percent. and as discussed, a shoe print is like a foot print--it will be pretty exact
Thats what I am sure RS lawyers will be working on.......Thats why I think,Amanda probably gave up her confession ..Now the Police are probably working the case,at this point,along those lines.....seeing if Amanda's confession,is acurate with the known evidence......RS is Guilty as Hell too
blah,
yes I agree with your thoughts, except that I am not so sure the evidence is really that strong that he was involved in the coverup.
blah correct..............Thats why I think Amanda's Lawyer,figured that out to......
With allof RS's knives, why would they cart his kitchen knife to MK's? and why would they cart it back?
it doesn't make sense to me.
chris | 11.15.07 - 4:54 pm posted:
"but why would she bring the knife to her boyfriends house ? it doesn't make sense. and they aren't saying that this knife matches the similar wounds on meredith
yes it is definitely alarming that meredith dna on tip of knife, but still it is very odd."
Chris: These are critical questions, thanks for bringing them up. I agree why take the knife back to RS flat. Why not just ditch it, like the cell phones. Maybe it was from a set, like steak knives and they were afraid police might wonder why one was missing (not likely in a college student's kitchen utensils).
If the knife had been found at MK/AK flat it could be explained MK had accidentally poked herself while peeling an apple, and that AK had done similarly at another time.
Has it been reported that they had cleaned this knife with bleach? This gets more interesting yet. If that is true then they demonstrate more rationality than I thought and that AK may not in fact be disassociating. OTH this may be the sharp mind of RS a science (computer) major.
coyotewaits: I'm not actually paraphrasing, but thats my impression I got of her after reading the blogs and discussing them here.
You should really read her blog though. Its very, very interesting!
The mirror Steve provided at the very top of this site still works:
http://mirror.huffsblog.com/
foxy...knoxy03blog.htm
http://mirror.huffsblog.com/
foxy...foxyknoxy03.htm
Who said they did Chris?......I would bet the knife came from Amanda's
I hope the LE is keeping a couple cards close to the vest and not showing their full hand, because they sure as Hell are giving a tell or two....
Seriously, I doubt the Titanic had as many leaks.
I wish someone had copied her photos before the profiles went private. You can find a lot even in the most seemingly benign picture.
You also have to Keep in mind,that the cellphone being found so soon..May have fucked them both up in covering up their tracks..They May have thought,they had more time...I find it strange that they were outside the house,when the police showed up...Had they just broken the window?
meman2
DNA of UK woman on friend's knife: Italian source
Reuters
Thursday, November 15, 2007; 2:15 PM
ROME (Reuters) - Italian police found DNA traces of murdered British student Meredith Kercher and her American flatmate Amanda Knox on a knife belonging to Knox's boyfriend, an investigative source said on Thursday.
Kecher, a 21 year-old
http://www.kirotv.com/news/14608...775/
detail.html
but this report says it is not determined whose knife it is..
chris | 11.15.07 - 5:51 pm posted:
"I think that a lot of the leaks to the press are meant to intimidate those involved. Maybe the hair thing and this knife thing is really about trying to get them to talk, not really solid evidence-- but enough teasers to scare someone into spilling the beans."
Chris: It was reported in the press that the prison chaplin/Priest that was visiting with AK daily had urged her not to watch any of the TV news. If she took his advice she would even know half this stuff that we know.
My guess is that these controlled and planned leaks (my belief) is directed at the attorneys to get them to convince AK and RS to give themselves up. Which is in all practically just your point.
coyotewaits wrote:
"These are critical questions, thanks for bringing them up. I agree why take the knife back to RS flat. Why not just ditch it, like the cell phones. Maybe it was from a set, like steak knives and they were afraid police might wonder why one was missing (not likely in a college student's kitchen utensils)."
Some considerations: Knive sets are a common gift from parents / relatives to young guys and girls living alone for the first time in their life. But its unlikely. If they had a plan, they would never have chosen a knive from a set.
Maybe, when they ditched the cell phones they considered to also ditch the knive, but if all this would have been found together, this would have been quite obvious.
Instead they took it to RSs apartment, because RS eventually told her he got bleach at his room. They probably thought bleach would eliminate all traces of DNA.
Luke, you can find most of pics from her myspace floating around the net.
but RS carries a pocket knife, is really into knives--so why would the weapon be some un glamarous kitchen knife?
Thanks Branston Tang for the link:
And here are the two ominous passages--
...di aver notato nell’altro bagno il water sporco di feci, di essersi meravigliata ma di non aver provveduto a ripulire...
[This is reporting on Knox's statement that she saw faeces in the toilet-basin in the second bathroom and was a little astonished, but didn't pull the chain.]
...Nella stessa data veniva sentito a sommarie informazioni Sollecito Raffaele che confermava integralmente le dichiarazioni della Knox con l’unica annotazione riguardante il water del secondo bagno che affermava di aver trovato pulito, a differenza di quanto aveva riferito la ragazza...
[This is reporting on how Solecito confirmed in full Knox's statement, with the only exception being that he found the toilet-basin clean - i.e. without faeces.]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher215.xml
Reading this, makes me really think that RS may be quilty and that they were not done cleaning up yet when the police found the phones too soon.
I am very conflicted about rs quilt.
Chris....They are both Guilty....It's just comes down to,who has the better lawyers,and the length of sentences for them..
Chris..Also with the DNA of Amanda's on the knife..The "Telegraph UK"'s article said,it could have been left from the washing of the knife to.....I guess another lawyer point of argue...Will be many in this case,I bet.......................Sorry,I don't no how to print the link
If A and R used some kitchen knife...would it be that the murder was premeditated?
Shoeprint doesn't necessarily put RS at the scene. It puts a shoe at the scene which may have been his, or may not have been his. It may not even have had a foot in it! I stand by my earlier comment. I don't believe this was a sexual assault followed by a murder, I believe (as someone has suggested) that it was a domestic that got out of hand; manslaughter, even. The real crime is what took place afterwards.
Chris, I don't want to sound hostile, but I guess you're the only one still believing RS maybe is innocent.
John............I am wondering why the Judge stated,that it was, and got out of hand?..On Amanda's and RS version of the night,she made that statement?.....Just wondering
Bleach removes blood but not Dna (see Telegrapg)
My odds are on that the knife came from AK flat. They took it with them because they wanted to make sure that it was super, super, super clean, so leaving it at the crime site even after cleaning it there, posed great risk to them if it wasn't clean and it was sure to be found as the MK would soon be found with the other flat mates returning, in fact as one did the very next day, the owner of one of the dumped cell phone she had lent to MK while she was away for the holiday. And of course AK's flat being a crime scene under investigation they would not have access to it for some time before LE released it back to the tenants.
The other thought why they didn't just dump the knife, is they wanted to so carefully to assure it was clean of DNA and then return it so neither of the other two flat mates might be asking and wondering what happened to it. However, I can't imagine that either of the Italian flatmates would still want to live there. I am sure they have moved. But that might not of occurred to their thinking.
The third reason for the knife being found at RS flat could be that events began moving so fast on Friday afternoon 02 Nov, that AK and RS had only the weekend to roll over in their minds all that they had done to cover the tracks of their culpability. By Monday they are being questioned by the LE and they no longer also have free access to the flat.
Just some thoughts...
(a) Regardless of who AK may or may not point the finger at (as being responsible for this tragic murder)- her credibility is absolutely shot;
(b) From my own experience in north american criminal courts where the standard is proof beyond a reasonable doubt- AK's goose is cooked (if not on first, then almost certainly on second degree or at least manslaughter) if it's true that (1) AK doesn't have an alibi which can be confirmed, (2) AK's bloodied fingerprint is on the deceased's face and (3) AK's and unfortunate Ms. Kercher's blood is found on the knife consistent w/ the wounds. Personally, i can't see anyway around the bloodied fingerprint if it is a match;
(c) RS will be found guilty too if it is true that (1) his alibi (of surfing the internet at home throughout that fateful eve) doesn't hold true; and(2) if the bloodied shoe print under the duvet matches his own shoe. Given the totality of the circumstantial evidence (the suspect bloodied knife is in his apartment, RS has already admitted to lying once to police- possibly after having given an oath), I can't see anyone believing his story about not being there unless he has an alibi that is corroborated and absent corruption.
(d) this is an ongoing investigation. i would hazard to guess that if the police have any solid leads as to who the fourth person was (and possibly fifth person ....- wasn't there a female high-heeled print found in the room that also didn't match any of the suspects??)- I would suspect they would take out wiretaps to track conversations. the leaks, then, would make sense as a way to stimulate chatter among the suspects that remain at large. where i'm from they call this tactic, "shaking the trees"
deepen was like:
> todger, hmm... what do you mean by " was deposited" ?
As a result of anal stimulation, Kercher had a spontaneous bowel movement. Because of the nature of the situation unfolding in the house, she was in the toilet for the shortest amount of time, leaving the material in the toilet unflushed.
Coyotewaits is interpreting the news that the fecal matter didn't belong to "any of the suspects" to include Kercher, and she assumes the person responsible to be some as of yet unidentified person. I would be less inclined to jump to that conclusion. Anal stimulation is likely to provoke a voiding of the bowel (hence the tendency to use an enema beforehand); because of the nature of the events that unfolded in the house, it is quite likely that Kercher needed to void her bowel at some point, hence my suggestion that she may have been the one to have produced the fecal matter that was found in the toilet.
(Also, isn't it odd that Sollecito mentioned in his second statement that there was *no shit* in the toilet. Presumably he disavowed the existence of it precisely because it was a by-product of the evening's activities)
Coyote..Thats why I think Amanda,with a smart Lawyer,already confessed.They will be dissecting her confession with all the evidence,and then some... they are running the Computer,and everything else they need,to prove RS doesnt have an albi......I think they know Amanda was there,and they know RS was there with her........
Even more, previously I had assumed that AK & RS cells phones were tapped starting Monday after their first interviews. Now I am beginning to think that the LE, seeing two very tired looking companions, and knowing almost immediately from the postal police vs. military police that their so called call to the later actually happen after the postal police came to investigate which so stated upon the arrival of the PP. In fact as pointed out by another here, AK & RS were probably shaking in their shoes at seeing the PP there when they were thinking they had some more time before the other flat mate showed up. And the other flat mate probably only showed up because the PP was able to locate and contact her via other phone numbers when they searched her customer records for her identity to the phone found.
Already, being quite suspicious I believe their phones were tapped sometime 02 Nov night.
Remember LE stated there was considerable phone traffic between the two but I didn't catch if any between what dates.
My assumption is that these tapped conversations will not be admissible as evidence. But even if so, recall that AK reported somewhere (I believe in a call to RS) that LP met her in the Square on Monday 05 Nov and started quizzing her about what the police had been asking her about and if she wanted to talk to the press (meaning was she talking to the press).
Unless these are not facts, we still haven't eliminated LP's culpability. If these phones calls are not admissible they clearly point to LP's involvement in some way, so they are searching for hard evidence of his involvement in wish to keep him locked up as a suspect. It is what we do not know from the LE work that probably leads us to the final actual scenario that occurred All Saints Evening.
They are now in the process of leaking what hard evidence they have while keeping silent on the very damaging evidence they have in the cell phone conversations.
I am sorry that I couldn't have gotten this video up to AK & RS by Halloween Day.
http://www.health-sky.com/html/t...turned-
off.html
My point on her making a confession already,is that she is trying to find peace with herself through religon Trying to release the burden of this terrible terrible act
where i'm from, police just can't unilaterally start tapping people's phones. first, they have to go to a judge with the proper paperwork, show probable grounds (and it's actually a pretty stringent test where i come from - they have to exhaust other avenues for obtaining evidence, it's almost a last resort) before they can get an authorization to wiretap for a limited # of days. assuming the police had their ducks in a row and the judge looked at the paperwork with a discerning eye and still signed off on it, it would probably be difficult to exclude wiretap evidence.
also - imo, even if AK confesses/pleads out and points the finger at someone else - and the prosecutors try and use her statement to convict s/one else--> i would think that any defence lawyer worth his salt could make mincemeat out of her; and i doubt that her statement, on it's own and without any corroborating evidence, wouldn't be enough to convict anyone else.
Thats why the evidence will do the convicting.........
meman2 - The scene presents as a sexual assault/murder but the three suspects are not perceived as the sort to set out to kill someone and so the judge postulates that maybe things got out of hand.
Amanda is a clever girl but, like most of us, her forensic awareness is likely limited, and the science will continue to unpick her story. I think the killing was by AK alone and she then deperately tried to cover her tracks, including faking a sexual assault and arranging the scene (and the faeces. But desperate people (even bright ones) make mistakes! Whether RS assisted in the coverup remains to be seen. I don't believe that the knife being found at his flat in any way necessarily implies his guilt.
wow - john, i'd want you on my jury
The BBC is reporting that the knife with DNA of both Knox and Kercher "belonged to Sollecito"
John....I had stated earlier,....My thoughts only......That the BarOwner wasn't involved...And two people,stoned ,twisted in the head,drugs, without drugs, under the influence...At this point who cares...They really could have started the evening thinking Meridith might really join into a situation of love play....Giggly ,laughter,.....and Then No....Kinda like we hear......Date-Rape...
I take your point meman2. But I still think that up to the point where Meredith was attacked it was AK and AK only. We'll know soon enough as the forensics unfold! I think Patrick is completely innocent and it's unforgiveable that he's been accused by AK.
Does anyone have any theories as to motive - I have a hard time believing it's just alcohol or marijuana induced. It's clearly not the first time AK has been drunk and there's no indication that she has a propensity towards being a violent drunk.
....Except of course, this last episode...
Yep........My hats off to The Italian Police.....Sounds like they are working this case right...
todger wrote:
"As a result of anal stimulation, Kercher had a spontaneous bowel movement. Because of the nature of the situation unfolding in the house, she was in the toilet for the shortest amount of time, leaving the material in the toilet unflushed."
This would imply, that she went to the toilet after having been sexual with Unknown. Suppose she didn't agree to the sex, why would the perpetrator let her go to the toilet, where she would be able to flee from the scene or at least try to get help?
I guess MK did not want to be assaulted anally, so it would be kind of bizarre that, while someone was holding her down and threaten her, she would ask if she can get to the toilet.
Theres another question: what bathroom where the feces in? In the upper bathroom or downstairs?
Ain't it more likely that she went to the toilet after coming home from watching the film, because she had dinner with her friends? Because of the circumstances in the flat (maybe loud voices, AK with another man, aggressive behaviour, dispute over XYZ) she forgot to flush it.
I thought the feces,wasn't linked to anyone at the House?...............StaRisgn.....Not all crimes need a motive.....
interested troller | 11.15.07 - 7:36 pm posted:
"where i'm from, police just can't unilaterally start tapping people's phones. first, they have to go to a judge with the proper paperwork, show probable grounds (and it's actually a pretty stringent test where i come from - they have to exhaust other avenues for obtaining evidence, it's almost a last resort) before they can get an authorization to wiretap for a limited # of days. assuming the police had their ducks in a row and the judge looked at the paperwork with a discerning eye and still signed off on it, it would probably be difficult to exclude wiretap evidence."
Where you are from troller is not Italy where the laws' judicial warrant procedures are quite different and as the very knowledgeable Italian poster here with user name Eric has so eloquently kept us informed.
I have yet to get his reply on the use of wire tapping as admissible evidence. However, it is very, very clear that the Carabinieri (military police, who are investigating this crime) can tap whoever and whenever they want (perhaps only in these kind of homicide cases) with very little judicial formality as in the US.
Furthermore, rather than search for his post I will paraphrase what I believe I remember he said:
The early interviews of the suspects by the Carabinieri which are called pre-investigation interrogations are not allowed in the court proceedings as evidence. Meaning the so called statement, 2nd statement (confession) made twice and the 3rd statement recanting the second cannot be entered as confessions into the proceedings (as though this trail by media won't completely affect the two judges and 6 jurors assigned to judge the case).....UNLESS they are accompanied by their attorney.
So publicly at this time no one has confessed to anything. The Carabinieri have a lot more information than what has been publicly "leaked" that we are aware of and admissible or not they are using it to investigate this case to come up admissible very hard forensic evidence.
In addition the Carabinieri are allowed to use all this information to present to an assigned investigating magistrate or judge, to which she (in this case) determines whether enough investigative evidence points to possible guilt of a suspect and if she so concludes can order the detention of said suspects up to one year before arrest and charges are brought and a trial date is set. (and of course this is already the case).
This may sound bizarre to you, but it doesn't to me (USA) and it obviously is not China, Russia or Saudi Arabia, and it obviously can not be in violation any of the human rights articles of the EU or Italy probably wouldn't be in the EU although I am quite sure it was one of the original member (whoa be me if I should really know anything about the EU's politics ).
Please Eric when you return correct anything I have paraphrased incorrectly (or anyone else here who searches back to what he exactly d
interested troller | 11.15.07 - 7:36 pm continued:
Please Eric when you return correct anything I have paraphrased incorrectly (or anyone else here who searches back to what he exactly described).
I rather agree with meman2 and maybe one other here has taken this position, (and so now do I) that the leaks are in fact well planned and purposeful to try and convince the suspects attorneys that it would be in their clients best interest to offer a statement of truth and plea for the courts mercy with extenuating circumstances.
However, I respectively disagree with meman2 that AK has already confessed up her statement with her attorney because:
It was announced today by each defendants attorneys that they plan to appeal the detentions.
Thus said the rules now are:
"The defense lawyers for each of the three detained in the murder have until Saturday to request the review of the case. Under Italian law, once the request for review is made, the prosecutor has five days to present his evidence for their detention and then a new set of three judges have up to another 10 days to meet, examine the evidence and decide whether those detained should be released."
This is my take on the matter. I am not following the 'sexual intimations route' for the following reasons: one, AK and MK were not on good terms at all, not in the slightest. That would preclude any chance of them starting something at all. Secondly, RS did not even know AK and it would have been extremely hard for him to even attempt any sexual advance on her. We know that AK arrived at the house sometime after 8:43 pm via the CCTV. MK's friends state that she left them around 9:00 pm It has been stated that RS and AK smoked hashish all day which I believe to be true. I believe that she left RS and pick up NA; she has been known to be promiscuous and when high on drugs, even more so. NA is at the home with her and while there uses the bathroom without flushing. AK arrives at the home and immediately, the two begin to fight over her bad habits, both hygienic and with other men. AK, while high on drugs, in a fit of frenzy begins the fight. Her finger prints on AK's neck show the depth of her rage. In the process, the knife is used by AK on MK. This would explain the small subwounds on her neck. I believe that NA makes the fatal wound. The two conspire to make it look like a rape has occured. They clean AK's room to make it look like she was not there at all. They try to incriminate the young men downstairs leaving blood on the wall as well as other locations. I do not believe that RS was involved at all at this moment. I believe his statement in which he says, "if I am here, it is my girlfriend's fault" and he is sticking to his story that he was at home; obviously still high from the drugs. This might explain why he did not answer the phoneat 10:00 pm. AK and NA do their best to make it look like a rape occured. AK leaves NA and returns back to RS's home, explaining her situation. Now it could be she returned to his place earlier, leaving NA; obviously she would not like to say that she was with NA to him. She convinces him to help her clean up the appartment because something terrible had happened there. He returns with her late in the morning. They argue about the situation. This would explain why someone passing by said that there was arguing going on. That could only be between a man and a woman. He helps her and thus becomes an accomplice. There was picture of him with a cleaver and bleach. He understood the use of bleach. Sometime later, after returning back to his place, with possible incriminating evidence, the knife, clothes, he bleaches his entire place to clear out the evidence. He said that AK left his place in the morning with a plastic cleaning bag. This might explain why she was seen in the launderette, possibly with NA later that day. Later in the day, while the two of them are at the house with the police, RS's comments were interesting. He tried to lead the police on by saying someone must have broken in the window. However, he was also passionate about MK. He pondered how anyone could do something like this to her.
He also stated to the effect that he could not forget what he saw in that room. And the reason why he said the toilette was clean, in my opinion is, men do not like to clean toilettes. In his mind it was clean. I believe a suspect is still at large, NA who delivered the final blow. I do not believe that PL had anything to do with this. He did text her, but that was for work. RS is an accessory after the fact.
He also stated to the effect that he could not forget what he saw in that room. And the reason why he said the toilette was clean, in my opinion is, men do not like to clean toilettes. In his mind it was clean. I believe a suspect is still at large, NA who delivered the final blow. I do not believe that PL had anything to do with this. He did text her, but that was for work.
RS is an accessory after the fact.
Coyote...Of course all the lawyers would file an appeal..If my Lawyer didnt,sure as shit he would be gone......They all want out of Jail....And for two of them,I dont see it happening with or without having made a confession..Or do they have bail like here in the USA?....I am sure Amanda said she didn't do the Murder,and I think she didn't....But she was there...USA just as Guilty
Fellow posters and sharp eyed sleuths: The feces does not belong to Kercher, the Carabinieri forensics tests have eliminated her.
Please call the La Repubblica editors to confirm this little piece of shit item, pun intended ^-_-^
I believe that in all likelihood the police probably have the right suspects. They have access to all the evidence, and while the efforts to second guess the police theory are creative, they have a weak foundation.
No, I recognize that not every crime needs a motive. But as an earlier poster pointed out, it does seem "bizarrely out of character" for AK, given how her friends in the US have spoken about her - so I was just curious
Good explanation bpcl.
And I would like to add that before AK meets with NA, she meets with PL on Piazza Grimana, where he delivers drugs to her.
But where do you think the knive comes from? Why does she use it?
Coyote.......Thats why it would be nice to know........If either of the two Suspects,(Amanda and RS)....had any any type of injuries,cuts scrapes a bruise.......
Certainly A's parents are aware of the latest news re DNA evidence and their daughter. Will they try to fight the system to take her home to the US, or encourage her to come clean?
Not implying that they would have the power to beat the Italian system, just trying to figure out how as parents, you not only come to terms with the notion of your child as a murderer, but also to the fact that she will spend a good portion of her adult life very far from home ian Italian prison...
bpcl..............I betcha...RS never lets a woman wear his tennis shoes again........either
Deepen,
In one of her many statements, most of them convoluted, but all of them together, the truth, "I was in the kitchen...." I think she got the knife from there. or rather grabbed it. One of the roommates was broght to RS home to look at the knives there. I think she was able to point out one that belonged in the all girl's apartment. Why does she use it? She was high on drugs and once MK comes in with the screaming and yelling and accusatory language, this drives AK into the frenzy. People on drugs are like that. They lose it completely. And sadly enough, AK, jealous of a morally upright woman like AK, while she was not (on drugs with a new man, not RS! the engineering geek) why that hurt her pride. In my opinion she lost it. If you look at the photographs of AK with RS, you wee two things; a shell shocked AK and a shamed RS. He is a smart guy who just realizes that his girlfriend of two weeks, who cannot quite come up to his class really, has screwed him royally. He admits this later in a statement in which he says, my life is ruined; ruined by association.
A2.....This whole case is sad,With Meridith's family taking the Blunt of it...........
bpcl | 11.15.07 - 8:30 pm posted;
"Later in the day, while the two of them are at the house with the police, RS's comments were interesting. He tried to lead the police on by saying someone must have broken in the window. However, he was also passionate about MK. He pondered how anyone could do something like this to her." among much more detail:
bpcl: please forgive me if I sound somewhat smug. You have obviously reviewed much of this blog as you cite many details and evidence, but you must have skipped over one of my much too many posts. This hypotheses has already been presented almost in the same detail as yours, namely by me, and the astute poster meman2 quickly and graciously punched a big logical hole in to which I could not possibly counter with out making NA just one North African idiot and escape artist.
meman2:
please repost you counter point if you have not done so already as I am way behind (obviously
Thanks
meman,
The old saying goes, "Never bring home to Momma a woman who sleeps with you on the first night!' I am sure that he regrets everything now. He cannot finish justifying his dissertation and he can never, ever wash himself completely from being not only a part of AK, but also, his association with this horrible and gruesome crime.
coyotewaits,
If you want credit, please take it. I have been fascinated by the case like many of the people on this blog her. yes I have read many of the comments here and my thoughts did evolve from them. Like you and others here, we are trying to figure out what happened. In my statement, I was merely trying to say that I was following the domestic angle. I am not looking for credit. Normally, I do not participate in these blogs at all. It is just that I wanted to figure it out, and I think my statement was my way of figuring it out, and I can stop thinking about it!!!!!..But you can have all the credit if you like..and more importantly, I do not find you smug at all!!!
Yeah bpcl, I think this could be the key to the case. This would explain a lot of things.
Maybe the unknown person was someone she had met at 'Le Chic', maybe he even was in PLs company that night, when they met at or around Piazza Grimana, maybe someone used to drugs and therefore agressive ... making it all fatal.
Meman, I don't mean to imply any strong sympathy for AK's parents. I just wonder how their reaction may be used to persuade their daughter to confess...Or will they deny and fight? Im curious as to how their presence may affect the outcome.
As the mother of a 20 year old daughter considering studying abroad, the horror of the Kerchers' loss is unimaginable. I do not want to diminish the enormity of the tragedy that will define their lives.
bpcl.......So true......But I just can't see RS as that innocent ,naive boyfriend.......Both of them were up to their neck in trouble.....And reality is so hitting them hard now....I would say anything my lawyers,parents,or I thought should say,to climb out of that huge pit they are in right now...
and besides why would an intelligent young man like RS, who has only just met Miss AK two weeks ago agree to help her clean up her mess at her flat, especially a bloody murder mess.
I submit by all logic of human nature, even a human with lungs and blood full of reefer smoke, one would have to be a complete zonked out, in love idiot who had a deep wish to spend up to next twenty years in a Italian prison.
That's the second hole. I did not include that scenario in my hypothesis.
Thanks for considering my refutation. Have meman2 or I miss understood something in your hypotheses?
From today's daily express:
A statement leaked by police yesterday said Sollecito acted strangely and asked questions about how Meredith was found.
Miss Romanelli, 28, told police about Sollecito
’s strange behaviour. The legal secretary said: “My boyfriend Marco told me his friend Luca had taken Raffaele and Amanda to the police station the day Meredith’s body was found and Raffaele had asked strange questions about how Meredith’s body was found and how she died.
“Luca was a bit worried and checked his car in case Amanda and Raffaele had left something compromising behind but he didn’t find anything.â€
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 8:36 pm
"Coyote...Of course all the lawyers would file an appeal..If my Lawyer didnt,sure as shit he would be gone......They all want out of Jail....And for two of them,I dont see it happening with or without having made a confession..Or do they have bail like here in the USA?....I am sure Amanda said she didn't do the Murder,and I think she didn't....But she was there...USA just as Guilty"
According to Eric and/or damian, this is the Italian equivalent of the USA bail system.
This Friday we enter in the second week since the murder of MK. Frankly, if the Italian police doesn't have very definitive evidence in its hands by now, it will never have. If. And my opinion is that the police doesn't have much, or the much it has is MAINLY circunstantial, otherwise we would know everything.
If they're playing the mice and cat game trying to make some of the circunstantial concrete, it's too late. The attorneys are inside the circus for more than 10 days, AK and RS changed their stories two, three times; even the Church is already involved, and probably some important connections from RS's father.
I'm angry. I don't stand that beautiful girl being barbarously killed and the due justice not be served.
ps.: Sorry for my English.
A2.....I would say so much emotion,is taking place for Amanda's Parents..Helplessness,confusion,sorrow,pain.....wi
th hope that the truth, would do some type of healing...
coyotewaits hyotheses:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=29917#39031
meman2's counter logic:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=29917#39041
simply put
coyotewaits,
I am an engineer and got caught up with a woman just like AK. You would be surprised by what an engineering geek would do for a beautiful woman like that who loved sex. He said they made love every morning. And I do not think that AK told him the entire truth; just enough to get him to help. It was only later that he realized the true extent of it and his association. That is why he made that childish statement, "I do not want to ever see her again." Why he will not because he will be in jail for quite awhile. And a further statement he made, "If I am here, it is the fault of my girlfriend" Interesting use of language. "If I am here" subjunctive in English, and is a statement of not accepting guilt for what happened. The only problem for RS is, that he is an accessory after the fact. By the way this old gf of mine, you would be surprised if I told her what I would do for her...so it is not surprising to me. if this other engineering geek, RS, agreed to do for her. He even said later, that he initially lied for her, not fully understanding the full ramifications.
bpcl...........I think we may have to wait for the computer forensics....That just may wrap this up
coyotewaits, theres a small but important difference between your post and bcpls: NA is the man who delivers the fatal stab, therefore he is the murderer and not innocent at all. Thats why he flees.
bpcl: RS only began to speak like that after he met his father, who probably forced him to stay away in any sense from AK. Very wise indeed, but very abrupt too...
Only a small doubt.
Suppose everything is right what bcpl said:
Why did nobody of the 3 suspects ever mention this NA guy? From my understanding, he would be the first to blame ... and probably the first I would blame, since I had no deep relationship with, he neither was my boyfriend nor my boss ... and he's out of town, so he wouldn't be able to defend himself.
Thats strange.
bpcl | 11.15.07 - 9:02 pm posted:
"If you want credit, please take it. I have been fascinated by the case like many of the people on this blog her. yes I have read many of the comments here and my thoughts did evolve from them. Like you and others here, we are trying to figure out what happened. In my statement, I was merely trying to say that I was following the domestic angle. I am not looking for credit. Normally, I do not participate in these blogs at all. It is just that I wanted to figure it out, and I think my statement was my way of figuring it out, and I can stop thinking about it!!!!!..But you can have all the credit if you like..and more importantly, I do not find you smug at all!!!"
Please forgive me bpcl, it was not credit for the hypotheses I was seeking or talking about (I am very tired and need to reread my comments to you for I must have written it quite wrong).
What I wished to point out was that I believe meman2 quickly found a fault line in my logic, and since I found your hypotheses, especially about NA & AK being in the flat and RS not being there very similar to mine, I wished merely to apply his counterpoint for yours also.
I am quite like you. I get a seed of a movie in my brain as to what went down (and wrong) so I develop the screen play and submit here for critique to help me process this unforgettable tragedy. Please keep up posting your thoughts.
Chikita,
You are correct. The arrival of the parents into the equation have most certainly changed things. But then again, I go back to the photos of him with AK. He has the look of one who has committed a serious crime, unlike AK, but one of a man who is calculating, how in the world did he get caught up with AK. I am not saying he is completely innocent of this crime. His life style and his acceptance of AK in his life so quickly goes to the heart of this crime. That man made bad choices and most certainly, bad decisions; like lying in the first place.
Deepen,
AK is not in a position now to say that. She needs RS, which is why she states that she was with him all night long. How can she tell this lover of hers, "Hey I was with someone else honey, not you' and expect him to back her up. For better or for worse, the two people are inextricably connected. And since we know, or rather believe, that AK was high on drugs, does she even remember who she was with that night. And if MK lived, why she could point NA out. That is why, in the frenzy, I believe, NA drives in the fatal wound. Based on the evidence, it was done by a male hand. AK, in her own words said, "I am confused' At first she said PK was the dude, but later on, in my opinion, she thinks it wasn't him. I know that. Her only fall back is an alibi with RS. NA is still at large, and I believe the Police know that. They need to find him, and they do not know who he is, or maybe his face, but not his name. AK, she cannot remember, just too high on drugs; poor lady...
Coyotewaits,
S*, you are a cool person! Keep the faith! That is all that matters!
bcpl, thats possible.
I don't think she was too high on drugs to remember. I'm pretty sure she remembers everything, but as said way above, she suppresses all memory, to be able to continue to exist.
But that she didn't tell RS of NA because she needed him as a back up.
You are pretty good.
bpcl.............. O.J.Simpson is still looking for the murder of his wife....Is this the same type of senerio?.....Why wouldn't NA,try to help cover up the scene?...With him gone,couldn't Amanda fake being raped,and abused also?....But she happened to Live?...Just not making sense to me yet....Who knows,mayby
bpcl: This is the first scenario I have read that seems both practically and psychologically true.
meman,
I believe that NA fled. However, the question is, how closed connected were AK and NA? I do not have an answer for that. The cleanup at the property was very good, and the incrimination of others was equally good. That would take a good engineering mine like RS to pull it off. And he was good at using bleach, because there is a picture of him holding it. Who do you know of ever, holds a bottle of bleach in their hands? Evidently RS did. It is my belief that a fourth person was involved. AK was high on drugs. RS masterminded the cleanup to protect her is what I am guessing. I do not think that AK told the entire truth of what transpired in the house before he shows up; that is why he agrees to show up. Everyone knows that OJ was the killer of two people. We make fun of him when he says that he will devote his life to finding the real killers; he is still in denial, but there is not question, that on the night of the murders, given the gruesomeness of them, that he was very high on drugs. Rage is uncontrollable when we do not have full control of all of our human faculties. NA fled the scene because AK was probably in shock or knocked out; perhaps he was too frightened by her screams and did not wish to have two murders on his hand. He did not go there for murder, he went there for sex with AK; what transpired later on, was something not he could have conceived.
And I think the sole reason the Police are holding PL is let NA think they have their man. Up to this moment, nothing has been said about him. His DNA is nowhere to be found. Now it could have been that he met AK at the Piazza G. to supply drugs to both her and NA. That is still a possibility. But he is not involved in the murder I believe. He just does not look like a suspect to me; too involved in the community. And to his credit, the Police have found none of his DNA at the crime scene. They do however, have a pickup of his cell in the vicinity, and that is most likely, the encounter with AK at the Pizza G.
meman2 | 11.15.07 - 8:36 pm posted:
"Coyote...Of course all the lawyers would file an appeal..If my Lawyer didnt,sure as shit he would be gone......They all want out of Jail....And for two of them,I dont see it happening with or without having made a confession..Or do they have bail like here in the USA?....I am sure Amanda said she didn't do the Murder,and I think she didn't....But she was there...USA just as Guilty"
WARNING PLEASE DO NOT READ PAST THE SMILING ICON IF YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE READING CRIMINAL FORENSIC HOMICIDE AUTOPSY ANATOMICAL RECONSTRUCTIONS.
I do hope you are correct and that her attorney will submit such at the appeal, which of course wouldn't be an appeal. And I am sure that he is going through the same process as we are here so anything she does say he can determine the scope of a truth and have confidence that she is not fabricating again. (I would recommend that he has assigned a staff member fluent in English to monitor this board, and I mean that seriously, not tongue in cheek.
I hope so, because it would provide some early partial closure for the Kercher family and it would provide some closure for many of us here that are being driven into lunacy trying to figure out this bizarre crime.
And we could at least move on to the next topic, how does RS and XX? refute her statement.
My only other otherwise complete agreement with you excepting the confession already made (or lets say to be made by the time of the appeal hearing) is that I am seeing AK wielding the fatal knife blow with her right hand (assuming she is pressing down with all her might with her left hand pressing into the right cheek and face of MK's turned head & assuming she is right handed) and in rage her hand comes down with the blade plunging with force into MK's exposed and stretched lateral neck. Her throat not being sliced or cut, which if deep enough would have reached the corotid artery, but instead plunging 8 cm straight into neck missing the main artery but severing several of the small facial and shoulder arterial branches.
RS is between MK legs his own knees pressing down on her thighs to keep her from kicking, possibly waving his own knife near her vaginal opening with one hand the other holding one of her arms down...and if there is a 3rd perp there, he is trying to hold her other failing arm, which at one point breaks free and grabs somebody's hair.
The motive: None other than what started as an enactment of a fantasy role playing game that most others including RS, play in normal masturbatory fantasies on their computer screens....suddenly turned real when AK crossed the borderline into psychosis for a few moments....
or they all sort of crossed that border if in fact they were all on a hallucinogenic substance along with the cannabis plus maybe some alcohol. Such a combination is as deadly as a drunk driving a car at 100 k/hr with a alcohol blood level of .24 or greater.
Last when the hallucinogen
Some more questions:
- Why do both RS and AK turn their mobile phones off that evening, if I remember correctly at 9 pm (21:00) and turn it on in the morning?
- Why is it that the CCTV camera captures AK entering the house at 20:43 and NA fleeing from the scene later on, but not captures her leaving the house to return to RS and then entering it again with RS to "clean up" and then leaving it again and then entering it again in the next morning?
- What about the bloody heel imprint of a girls shoe which doesn't belong to AK?
reply continued:
WARNING PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS POST IF YOU ARE UNCOMFORTABLE READING CRIMINAL FORENSIC HOMICIDE AUTOPSY ANATOMICAL RECONSTRUCTIONS.
Last when the hallucinogen wears off within an hour or so there is little hangover unless the alcohol intake, if any, was quite substantial (don't think so it would have caused them to eventually pass out) and the psychosis suddenly reverts to a rather normal state of reality and ego returns.
I am sticking with that and have been most of this day and evening until I have more substantial factual data. My only question open: was there a third dragon playing this deadly game also.
Deepen,
There is no material evidence given as of yet as to who turned off their cellphones or at what times. That information has not been supplied and I would not put much stock in that. And as for the shoe print of another woman in the room, there was blood everywhere on the floor from what we are told. That shoe print could have come from one of her friends before. The blood swirled around it..and did not coagulate properly. I do not wish to negate your thought, but there is just not enough evidence to support a woman in the room that night. Even still, it was an apartment and so many women lived in it off and on. It would be hard to make some stock of that I believe.
coyotewaits, theres a small but important difference between your post and bcpls: NA is the man who delivers the fatal stab, therefore he is the murderer and not innocent at all. Thats why he flees.
deepen | 11.15.07 - 9:23 pm
Then I ask, why does NA even take up a knife or even get involved to join AK in what the hypotheses says is an initial domestic dispute between AK & MK over toilet and, of course, other AK bad habits (bringing men home, drinking and smoking reefer excessively, etc).
Unless NA is a complete no morals or ethics freak (please no one wishes to charge PL with such traits, is your position bias because NA is arabic and most likely a muslim) why doesn't he try to shout "stop it girls, stop it now" and try to grab AK if she has taken up a knife.
Ask yourself why, if no phone was available to call 112 would he not then flee the apartment to keep from getting involved and protect himself or better yet seek the nearest polizia for help.
Why would he in fact take up a knife against a woman he probably doesn't know at all, or knows only from his previous two or so visits to the flat, and then only in passing and knowing she (MK) doesn't care for him.
Why I ask. He is a musician, makes musics, makes songs, tries to entertain and make people happy, soft, comfortable in a club or maybe on the street.
Please tell why this man, that none of us have any data on him at all you assume is just a cold bloody killer or a terrorist.
To me it just doesn't compute logically. Why does for you?
Why is it that the CCTV camera captures AK entering the house at 20:43 and NA fleeing from the scene later on, but not captures her leaving the house to return to RS and then entering it again with RS to "clean up" and then leaving it again and then entering it again in the next morning?
The CCTV, if I recall correctly, is in the parking garage. If AK and RS did not exit or re-enter throught he parking garage, then they would not have been filmed. Or else the police have additional photos that they have not yet released.
To me it just doesn't compute logically. Why does for you?
Most people here are just wildly speculating about the details of the murder. It's fun to speculate, but unfortunately we will not have any real idea of what happened until the authorities let it be known.
RS and AK are lovers? they meet just two week ago and they make sexual love for say 13 nights, and they are lovers, real friends and have qn emotive and intimate relationship other than sexually intimacy......
Here's my take on their relationship.
They meet, they fall madly in love almost immediately, meaning in about four or five days, their hearts are beating fast when they are together but not all day everyday they study, they go class, AK works 2 (3?) nights a week till 02:00 hrs...
I am schooled in neuroscience. What you may call falling in love, I euphemistically call falling in lust,
it's brain chemistry, the hormones are raging in both, the pheromones are secreting excessively and...........
hey this is very real, very natural, a temporary form of insanity in the brain so that nature can demand and execute it purpose, make copies of itself (babies), without being blindsided by this symbolic, brain building neuro connected patterns, i.e. propositional models of reality....(that makes you use birth control hormones, or carry a condom in your wallet) yet can be so powerful as to make you forget potential STD's and forces you to shut off logic and ride bareback.....sorry I digressed
the bottom line is this stuff is powerful when it connects with another through the organism's sensory system
and as bpcl so hinted at it can make you do almost anything to keep up that high that demand you mate...(though most just call "god I'm horny, let's fuck)
but crash that high down into this kind of reality.....I can understand why RS says "never again anything with her" and AK says to her mother "come and get me, take me shopping", "I want to start all over, change all those things I done in the past"...and RS says to his father "i was with them for four hours, they didn't even find my knife in my pocket, those stupid cops"
doesn't sound like an overly crazed blind in love guy to me or in love her
Bottom line, I agree they were "in lust", I agree with bpcl that AK was a true femme fatal for RS, but I don't agree that AK had any kind of complete hypnotic control over RS....he's as responsible as she for their relationship
just my 4 cents worth
This question may already be answered above (but its too much to read through) - what evidence is there that the scenario was a sex game?
The police seem very confident on this subject- and pretty much declared it from day one- but what evidence was there to back this up?
It seems unlikely that three (seemingly normal) people would all be so out of their senses at the same time to try to force MK into something sexual. Wouldn't at least one of them have stopped the others?
Also, this North Algerian man, who apparently worked at Le Chic, my speculation is that he was involved. Anyone know why he was fired by Patrick? People in Perugia?
hey wait a minute guys: The press reported that LE had identified the North African that they were looking for, they know his "as known as" name, he is AK's dancer at the Le Chic, he is the musician that worked at Le Chic, damian early today said the press said he was fired by PL from the club on 31 OCT. Apparently the policia have not been able to find him.....
......however not only has he apparently dropped from sight, but over the past four days he appears to have dropped from the leaking reports from the LE (go back through this log of posts, find the links to the press reports, better yet just go to your favorite British or Italian newspaper and search for Meredith Kercher and you can re-read all the press on the search for the fourth suspect
why has he dropped from the leak reports? Take up that question and formulate your hypotheses before you try placing him as "thee" murderer
Could it be, they can't find him, they only have four not very good pieces of evidence;
1) some one like him on not very good resolution camera from the car park across from the homicide flat
2) eye witness reporting they saw a north african man and a woman in a laundry, and the man departed strangely getting stuck in the door as he tried to leave in a hurry....yet no ability to affirm by the witness that he was the guy in the laundry or AK was the woman (gee there are only 150,000 people in Perugia, it had to be them
3) feces by unidentified human being in the toilet bowl in AK/MK flat (2 bathrooms)
4) an unidentified finger print on a blood stained pillow in MK bedroom (it DID not say that this was a bloody fingerprint, it just said it did match any of the occupants in the flat or RS or LP. Do you not think a thorough investigation would maybe go like this: 4 young men return from their holiday with solid alibi they were miles away with family for the 01 - 02 Nov dates. Police request and men agree to volunteer their finger prints so police can eliminate many other prints around the property. They do a comparison on the unidentified print on the pillow. Bingo, it matches the young man NK had taken a fancy two weeks before. O'yes he confirms with the police I was in her room several times, I am so heart broken by this unspeakable tragedy. Gee we would have pillow fights a lot (meaning I fucked her missionary style last time supporting my weight with my hands next to her head on her pillow so I could gaze into her beautiful eyes as we orgasmed). In fact we had one the day before I left for vacation 28 OCT. I kissed her goodbye that day. Tears running down his cheeks. With no one to ask but her other roommates and the condition of the bed clothes not spattered with blood it was obvious to the LE that MK had not washed her bed linens since more than a week. Policia drop the clue, do not bother to report to the media, and the clueless reporters bent out of hell to convict the two lovers they are focusing on don't even bother to
continued from above:
and the clueless reporters bent out of hell to convict the two lovers they are focusing on don't even bother to ask.
Is that a reasonable hypotheses. Please go at it.
Here's another one the conspiracy sleuths will love. The LE is so hell bent like the media to frame and convict AK and RS with LP as an accessory to the crime, that they have stopped anymore inquiry into the subject of the NA and are deflecting in questions thereof.
See my other post above about your mystery NA man.
I defend the "Algerian" (I know he is not Arabian if from Algeria or Morocco but I forget the Latin rooted name, I think in French for these peoples, it starts with an m, maghreban, no?) with passion as so many others so eloquently defended LP, but I do so as logically as I can at this time and until more evidence is presented.
I dismiss all conspiracy hypotheses that are not substantiated with similar hard evidence saying such things are endemic with the Carabinier.
Re: Chikita Bakana | 11.15.07 - 9:12 pm
"...even the Church is already involved, and probably some important connections from RS's father.
I'm angry. I don't stand that beautiful girl being barbarously killed and the due justice not be served."
Concerning the church, I got angry when I heard that the prison priest had advised Knox to switch channels when the news came on. In addition, he should not have told the press that Knox is turning to religion. This just increases the pain for those close to the victim - particularly since priest said Knox was especially interested in the passage where Jesus rebukes the Saducees for not believing in the resurrection. (The religious "conversion" of murderers has so many conflict-arousing connotations : think of Karla Faye Tucker or Myra Hindley.)
Re: Knox and Sollecito
I'm a little worried that we may be underestimating Knox and Sollecito - I'm assuming for the sake of the argument that Sollecito was involved in the murder (which, as others have pointed out, may not be the case). I think the two of them spent the whole night "cleaning up". They then decided that Knox should give various conflicting statements, because this would actually weaken the case against both of them. Why? Because Sollecito can claim that anything Knox says is likely to be untrue. And if the police cannot nail Sollecito based on Knox's confession, then Sollecito doesn't have to come clean and tell the truth about what really happened that night (which would expose Knox).
So Knox's being regarded as a liar and as an "unreliable source" is actually their best defense.
coyotewaits wrote:
"RS is telling truth. AK left him at the Plaza saying she's going to work. Instead she hooks up with NA for their own assignation, meaning she doesn't give a f--k emotionally for RS" etc...
...and... if RS, hiding himself, had followed AK+NA? remember AK is his first (or second) girlfriend in life... remember he is an italian from south...
for the rest of your story... My personal compliments... I think you got it...
ciao
A hypothesis concerning: Knox
One thing that Knox couldn't stand about the Meredith was the latter's close relationship with her family. We know that Meredith communicated daily with her family. Knox, in contrast, has always had a poor relationship with her parents. She already felt undervalued by her mother even as an infant. She couldn't understand why her mother wanted to flush away her faeces - something that Knox had created (cf. Freudian theory). From that time on, Knox has always refused to flush away her faeces - a habit which her mother grudgingly learned to accept over the years, but which her stepfather (coming into Knox's life when she was 14) made great fun of. In Perugia, she continues this habit. Meredith (who resembles Knox's mother) complains about it, and tells others about it. Knox once again feels unappreciated and humiliated. She seeks revenge. And she ensures (I'm not quite sure how) that after the death of Meredith, faeces are found in the toilet. Her point - "nobody makes fun of my faeces, my creation"
I cannot believe that the third man (Mr X, or NA) also forgot to flush the toilet. (It would be too much of a coincidence to have two non-flushers.) Either he was told by Knox not to flush it, or Knox somehow planted the faeces there.
To bpcl | 11.15.07 - 10:38 pm, but really to everyone here on Meredith Kercher forum including myself.
bpcl: I now feel I must request of you to go to some of the online home pages of the UK papers for English and do a search on Meredith Kercher. That will bring up approximately 10 to 20 articles per paper that start from the first interviews and leaks from the Carabinieri around 06-08 Nov through each current day. These are the only sources of facts that we really have here except for a few posters who actually reside in Perugia, Italy, or have spent time in Italy and know the culture and or laws. Same for Seattle.
Please read all them all thoroughly. They each say approximately the same thing so one paper is probably enough. Then I urge to to read several more of the old posts asking others to kind of guide you to the date and time stamp. This can be difficult because there are nearly 1100 posts here but there are some really great posters here who will willing to locate links and supporting documents for your gather of facts.
I ask this of you because you are making many statements of assumed fact in which their is no evidence that exists in any referenced statements being made by others here or on the web at media online sites about the Meredith Kercher homicide. In some cases they are completely not true or they are the exact opposite of established fact or thirdly they exist as fact and you state there is no evidence of any such facts. And you are doing this repeatedly in your propositional post (speculation, proposal, opinion).
To keep this short I will just cite a few examples (I am sure you will recognize your words in that I did not reference the time stamp of your posts) from your posts of today 15 Nov when you enthusiastically joined. Please though keep up your enthusiasm and your ideas, but also please verify your facts or ask for clarification as almost everyone else does her with a short question or two.
------------------------------------
"There is no material evidence given as of yet as to who turned off their cellphones or at what times. That information has not been supplied and I would not put much stock in that."
This is false. The police have all trace pings to cell mast towers from both AK, RS, and PL's cell phones. They have reported that AK & RS cell phones both ceased to ping the network (were turned off) at approximately 21:00 hrs 01 Nov and both resumed activity to the network at 10:00 hrs 02 Nov (were turned back on).
------------------------------------
"In one of her many statements, most of them convoluted, but all of them together, the truth, "I was in the kitchen...." I think she got the knife from there. or rather grabbed it. One of the roommates was brought to RS home to look at the knives there. I think she was able to point out one that belonged in the all girl's apartment."
These may be facts, I have and perhaps others have not yet heard about them nor seen a valid
Of course if Knox did plant the faeces, this would reduce the likelihood of NA's involvement - as others have pointed out.
continued:
These may be facts, I and perhaps others have not yet heard about them nor seen a validated source for them. In this case, sounding very recent, if you know this and have not seen them posted elsewhere previously (assuming you read the comments sequential from at least the point you joined), please provide and state the source for them by posting a URL link where others can find them.
---------------------------------
"Her finger prints on AK's neck show the depth of her rage"
This is not true. Her finger prints, thumb print only, was lifted from on her face right front, mid temple. It is in the the official report submitted to Judiciary by the Investigating Judge assigned to this case to determine if there was sufficient evidence obtained at that time by the Carabinieri to warrant the detention for up to one year, subject to appeal, for the high probability of guilt of the suspects and the possibility of the flight of the two foreigners. The link to this typewritten 18 page report can be found here thanks to Branston Tang's efforts posted at here Branston Tang 11.15.07 - 5:55 pm :
http://download.repubblica.it/
pd...ia_meredith.pdf
If you wish 100% of these official facts, you can use some Italian to English Translation software at translate it. Just google the words here there are some good free software.
Or you can get approximately 25% of the facts in summary extracts published in several journals (newspapers) this one being the Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher409.xml
-----------------------------------
"That is why, in the frenzy, I believe, NA drives in the fatal wound. Based on the evidence,
it was done by a male hand."
This again is just the opposite of what the facts were stated by Carabinieri in leak to the press.
This is from the Times today 15/11/2007. PLEASE READ IT.
"The paper quoted Carmelo Lavorino, a criminologist, as saying the killer could have been a woman since Ms Kercher was stabbed in the throat but not with sufficient force to kill herat once. Instead she bled to death in "slow agony". The fact that the killer then covered the body with the girl's duvet was a gesture which showed either "instinctive repentance by someone who knew her " or "a desire to forget the crime by covering it from sight."
-----------------------------------
Readers can find The Times here
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/global/
and The Telegraph here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
I urge you to check them online daily before you log on to this forum. That way hopefully we will all be grounded in a common reality and agreement as to what are facts and what is not a fact in this case to date and at least be current to the end of the previous day. It is fun to be on line when damian, Branston Tang, Eric, or others I forget at this moment come on from Italy of Europe in the early hours of USA morning and sat
continued:
It is fun to be on line when damian, Branston Tang, Eric, or others I forget at this moment come on from Italy of Europe in the early hours of USA morning and satrt posting the latest official Carabinieri leaks to the Italian media. We take these leaks as facts. But we have some spies on the ground who have gone to the All Souls Casa (House of Horrors), Le Chic, etc.
Thanks to all, I will probably log on to read tomorrow but not post unless asked to response to a specific question because I will be gone all day. Your welcome for the breather.
Rest in peace and love Meredith Kercher. We love you and will not forget you, ever.
AndyT | 11.16.07 - 4:55 am posted:
"A hypothesis concerning: Knox
One thing that Knox couldn't stand about the Meredith was the latter's close relationship with her family. We know that Meredith communicated daily with her family. Knox, in contrast, has always had a poor relationship with her parents. She already felt undervalued by her mother even as an infant. She couldn't understand why her mother wanted to flush away her faeces - something that Knox had created (cf. Freudian theory). From that time on, Knox has always refused to flush away her faeces - a habit which her mother grudgingly learned to accept over the years, but which her stepfather (coming into Knox's life when she was 14) made great fun of. In Perugia, she continues this habit. Meredith (who resembles Knox's mother) complains about it, and tells others about it. Knox once again feels unappreciated and humiliated. She seeks revenge. And she ensures (I'm not quite sure how) that after the death of Meredith, faeces are found in the toilet. Her point - "nobody makes fun of my faeces, my creation"
I cannot believe that the third man (Mr X, or NA) also forgot to flush the toilet. (It would be too much of a coincidence to have two non-flushers.) Either he was told by Knox not to flush it, or Knox somehow planted the faeces there."
Are these suppositions you state here based on your interpretation of a psychiatric (Freudian?) model of AK's psychological development gleamed from observations you've made of her writings, videos, friends descriptions, comments from others in media sources including the crime, rather than any opinions here?
Just curious? I like it quite frankly for an interpretation of some/lot of her psycho-social behavior.
Well, coyotewaits, I think it's based on everything I've read and seen - which is probably a lot less than many commenters on this thread.
I always look for the "oddities" in criminal cases.
Concerning the faeces and the Freudian interpretation, see Joyce McDougall's 'The Many Faces of Eros'. Here's an extract from that book: "The initial “creation” that the infant offers to the first caretaker is the faecal object, with all the erotic and aggressive meaning invariably associated with anal activity and faecal fantasy. But there is always an element of uncertainty, because of the two ways in which faecal production is experienced, i.e. as a gift of great value to the other, or as a weapon used to attack and dominate the other."
Another oddity in this case is that the German uncle found Knox a job (or placement) in Berlin rather than in Hamburg, where he lives. This suggests that he didn't want the girl staying with him. (Of course, she did stay for a short while with the uncle, but then she went to Berlin after he got her that Bundestag post.) So why didn't he want her around? Or was it simply that she wanted to be independent?
On the front page of today's Repubblica (and with a 3 page spread inside) there's an article entitled 'The country of the Raccomandati. Jobs found only thanks to relatives and friends' The article says that 4 out of 10 italians are 'raccomandati', according to a report by by ISFOL (the institute for the formation of work. sorry for bad translation.) ...it goes on..'finding work in Italy remains a family affair.'
I mentioned this phenomena earlier, in an attempt to give our friends on the other side of the pond an idea about the place in which these terrible events took (are taking) place. As Rob, and others have said, the context is important.
The consequences of this 'system' is that 'sometimes' 'some' people don't get their jobs on merit, but for other reasons. The implications of this...I will leave.
Many decent, honest italians are penalised by this system...as Giuseppe said, it 'disgusts him'.
Anyway, I'm starting to think none of this will have any bearing on this case, but let's try and give our friends the context and let them decide. (these cats are good!)
Francesco, let's be honest, you already knew all this.
AndyT- that is an interesting and well-expressed theory- definitely possible. Having studied Freud's earlier work and some later critiques of his work, I tend to avoid using his most celebrated theories to explain too much. But you know your stuff. And I can definitely accept that if she was emotionally neglected as a child, 'not flushing' may have been as simple as a way she found to get attention, albeit attention of the negative kind- she was certainly getting that from MK. If so, its a strange coincidence (or maybe not) that the new stepfather called all three Knox women 'Sh*t-heads' on his blog...
Just to play devil's advocate, here is an alternative (non-freudian) explanation to throw into the mix, which eliminates the need for AK to find a stranger's faeces to 'plant' (that is the biggest problem for me- I just don't see anyone running around, managing to find some, scooping and transporting it etc etc.., so I'd buy your theory far more easily if it had been shown to come from her) and again raises the likelihood of 'MrX' being involved...
About the Algerian bar man/dancer guy, who currently seems to be of interest in some quarters. I'm not convinced yet that the police have quietly dropped this line of enquiry due to other explanations for the evidence that points to a MrX- they may be quietly trying to locate him as we type, and If I were them and that were so, I certainly wouldn't be giving him a public heads-up about it. I'm curious about exactly how well he and AK were acquainted, and whether/how often he had been to the house. It sounds from her blog that they got on well enough, so you'd think since by all accounts she wasn't too discerning about the company she kept, she would have probably had him over, even just as a friend. If he was a regular visitor (e.g. if they had shifts together, maybe he hung out with her before they went to work or came back with her afterwards, etc?), maybe it was not actually AK who was forgetting to flush the toilet, but this guest/visitor?
And some slightly tangential observations to further explain and justify that suggestion...
I've lived either with North Americans, or in North America, on several occasions in the past 15 years, and they tend to be pretty well acquainted with flush toilets and how to use them. If AK was anally retentive, from childhood, to the extent and in the way you've suggested, within her cultural framework that would be seen as very inappropriate, even antisocial (as it was in MK's similar frame of reference- which is why she was disturbed by it). I think if it were so, there would be more evidence of such behaviour in her life- more people willing to come forward and say, yes, she was a little weird in that way... and so far, there aren't.
I have also lived in Eastern Europe, where once you get out of the city, flush toilets can still be something of a rarity. I have never been to North Africa, but I'd guess that in many places the 'plumbing' is more akin to that which I encountered in Romania and Bulgaria, than in Virginia or New York... Some people in the world do not grow up cultivating the habit of flushing (or even sitting on a seat when nature calls), because there is no flush to flush or seat to sit on where they grow up and live...This is not meant as a slight on either Eastern Europe or North Africa and please understand that I'm not equating it with being dirty, although I appreciate that is how it appears to the western eye. It is somtimes just different, more simple. It does seem a weird coincidence that the faeces left in the toilet on the night of/morning after the murder, unflushed- which we are led to believe was a regular cause of contention between the two girls- did NOT come from AK (which is what you'd imagine, knowing about the arguments), but that there are suspicions that someone she was pretty well acquainted with, and from a non-western background, may also have been in the house around the time of the murder. Thus, someone whose foundational cultural paradigm *may* dictate that it is perfectly normal to walk away from the toilet after using it without flushing, because there usually isn't a flush to use? (just in case anyone is wondering, in rural Romania, one common design is a toilet hut separate from the main living quarters. The hut is built over a deep pit and has a wooden floor with a hole cut in the middle, and waste is deposited through the hole into the pit below by squatting down low over it. And yes, it does stink, but by contrast the main living quarters of many homes I visited were cleaner and more hygienic than many American and British homes (I'm British) I've been into- so like I said, different, but not necessarily inferior...)
So it could be that AK's habit of bringing back diverse visitors (which behaviour concerned MK in and of itself) may also have been at the root of the arguments over toilet flushing- rather than AK herself.
Damian, that is a very high figure, and of course the system is unfair. But it's not just typical of Italy. Draw a line from Bordeaux to Trieste and then from Trieste to Szczecin (Stettin), and anywhere to the south and east of the two lines has the same affliction. Of course, there are advantages too. Less of the elbowing you see in true meritocracies. More stability and trust (perhaps).
Yes erhw, what you've written is a highly possible scenario.
And you're absolutely right, one would think that Knox simply wouldn't have got away with this habit in North America. (Unless, however, she only did it in the home.)
I know of only one "inference" (no more than that) that Knox was dirty: In the "drunken video", she was called a dirty Jew by one of the blondhaired male youths - and that comment seemed a bit odd to me.
somebody sure has clogged this forum up with lots of posts,
its now very time consuming to find detail in the posts of previous contributors that one wishes to refer back to....
looks like a dominating poster has made this forum unworkable. maybe that's a good thing with all this sickening speculation in graphic detail that has been bandied about.
like they said on dragnet "just the facts" - now we can just wait for them to be released...RIP
In yesterday's local rag, there was an interview with one of R's best friends. As well as the usual 'lovely guy, bit shy, hard working, can't be him' stuff, there was mention of 'Chiatti', the monster of Foligno. This case profoundly shocked Umbria and it is still raw. Chiatti, kidnapped, tortured and then killed two boys. He then calmly and candidly recounted what he had 'had' to do. This happened in Foligno, half an hour from here, in 1992.
R mentioned Chiatti in his blog. They both studied at ONAOSI (An organisation which helps orphans of doctors, dentists, chemists etc) R's friend claimed that the press had misinterpreted this entry in his blog.
(they've gone to town on it) He says the cleaner of their dorm was the same person who had cleaned Chiatti's room, and when there was a little problem with her, they would use this as an 'excuse' 'justification'. Anyway, he said that Chiatti wasn't an idol for R, as has been reported.
also...the photo with the cleaver was just a bit of fun and he's into martial arts......
Rob. I wanted to thank you...you've helped me out alot here, with trying to get things straight in my head. Cheers.
There is a new article in the "Times Online UK".......Sorry but I don't know how to post the link...Looks Like I may have to eat crow on my point of view,on this horrible case..Sorry for the all the posts yesterday....I think I shall keep my thoughts to myself on this terrible terrible crime...Hopefully all the guilty parties, will all be made to serve their well deserved Time in prison...Once again,,,,,,I think the Italian Police are doing a superb job.....And I also hope Meridith's Family,Can find some type of Peace within themselves......
Damian- I think, on the matter of the 'raccomandati', you are now thoroughly vindicated in your earlier claim You seemed genuine to me anyway- you can only tell it how you see it, and how you see it in this case is totally valid, even if not everyone agrees or you're not always totally accurate. Unlike the majority of us, you're 'on location', and also have the benefit of what seems to be pretty sound insight into both the Italian and non-Italian perspectives. I agree with AndyT to an extent- that in moderation and within the context of a system that remains predominantly meritocratic, nepotism is not all bad on the employment front. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't say that- because although I've never benefited in that way myself, being the first to go to university in my family, since I secured my own place in the hierarchy I have occasionally given support or a leg-up to deserving others who otherwise might not have had a chance. As well as several years ago, picking my younger brother up by the scruff of his neck off the street and making him work for me (a job he didn't 'merit' initially, but eventually did well in and which turned out to be the making of him...so I don't regret it, cos he's my brother, you've got to look after your own, and he'd probably still be smoking weed on street corners, or locked up, by now, if I hadn't!)
Anyway- we have yet to see how the Italian version of the phenomenon affects outcomes in this much more serious context. Contacts should NEVER count for anything in a criminal justice context. After watching the McCann's 'connections' work for them though, I think I'd believe anything is possible. And Sollecito most of all, does appear to be very well 'connected'...but also incriminated, in at least the clean-up/cover-up, so I think he will be the litmus test of how much the connections count.
I found some interesting quotes from him in an early article, before they were detained. It seems the reporter spoke to him for around 40 minutes the day after the murder (she says this in the second article). I know that he's since admitted to lying to the police, but there are often a few grains of truth to be found in even the most obnoxious lie. Look at this that he said (granted to a 'Sunday Mirror' reporter, but still it looks as she is quoting him verbatim where there are sppech marks):
http://tinyurl.com/2jp96s
'A friend of murdered British student Meredith Kercher told last night how he discovered her body in her blood-spattered bedroom.
Raffaele Sollecito, 23, relived the horror of finding the body of the pretty brunette.... "It is something I never hope to see again," he said. "There was blood everywhere and I couldn't take it all in...(snipped)'
Also very interesting from the same interview:
Raffaele had spent the night at his own house on the other side of the city with his girlfriend, Meredith's American flatmate Amanda Knox, 22.
He said: "It was a n
I think all of the focus on "orgies" and "a wild sex game" is a distracting misdirection in this case.
Simply put, it's the product of sensationalism at its worst.
Is there some form of RELIABLE forensic evidence that I am unaware of? Has that info too been shared, cause that may suggests otherwise?
Was it ever reported that the body of Meredith had other small cuts on it, the breasts and genitals in particular?
I'm gonna repost my thoughts from yesterday, just for those who find it as painful as I do to retread though this ridiculously long thread.
3) wounds to accomplish what should only take one... I have a plausible explanation on this.
The(2)shallow wounds are likely due to the tentative acts of a person who realized almost instantly that they were in over their head. It doesn't speak of rage. 30 stabs, that's rage.
The shallow wounds are also quite possibly the product of an attacker who lacked physical strength, likely a female.
The (3rd) wound proved to be fatal. I would venture to suggest that there is a viable reason that the 3rd would was deep enough to kill; the same person wasn't responsible for all (3) wounds.
I don't completely believe that this was a torture-styled killing or as sexually motivated as the media has made it out to be. That's just what sells papers.
I also don't believe that two people would bother to rape, torture, and murder a victim, only to afford them the decency of covering their body with a duvet. The duvet certainly wasn't hiding anything, but it most likely was an act of contrition by the killer(s)
Draw from that what you may....
Recap-
(2) superficial wounds, made by a tentative person of inferior strength.
(1) wound that brought about the victim's fatality. (possibly by a separate person.)
Body covered as an act of contrition,which is a sign of remorse, as well as an indicator that the victim knew her killer(s.)
Raffaele had spent the night at his own house on the other side of the city with his girlfriend, Meredith's American flatmate Amanda Knox, 22.
He said: "It was a normal night. Meredith had gone out with one of her English friends and Amanda and I went to party with one of my friends...(snipped)"
2 things- could he be describing here SEEING MK's body for the first time the night before, after being persuaded somehow to go over there to help AK?
And- WHAT FRIEND? A going to party with a 'friend' would fit the evidence of another person possibly being persent with them in the house...
There is more from a later article, written by the same reporter about the same interview, but after he was made a suspect, that is also interesting:
'During the conversation Raffaele's phone rang. It sounded like a male voice speaking in Italian and I understood from the conversation that he was getting irate. Raising his voice, Raffaele sounded exasperated as he said in Italian: "It's just a journalist. I'm just telling her about Meredith. I can talk to a journalist if I want."
The conversation ended badly and he didn't say goodbye when he hung up.
I asked who he was speaking to. He replied: "Just a friend."
thanks damian .. you have really been invaluable to everybody by keeping things rational and always posting up factual developments as they occur in your city. i know your love of italy and perugia will stay strong. i have not been to your city yet, mostly traveling to sicily, but it does appear a warm convivial place and i wish you all the swiftest of recoveries from the shock this has brought you all....ciao
Luke- I totally agree, especially with what you say about the lurid reporting. Regarding evidence of additional injuries, this is from a guardian article, discussing the Judge's official report:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/
...2208733,00.html
'The document reports that the postmortem found bruising on Ms Kercher's lips and gums, and on her left cheek and chin. These injuries were compatible with a prone position into which the young woman was forced, as well as with the pressure on a face crushed down on the ground to hold her still.
There were further marks on Ms Kercher's neck that suggested she was threatened with a knife. Examination showed that the knife, having injured the victim's neck twice, went in deeply the third time, causing the fatal wound.'
I don't think I have ever heard so many contradictory reports in such a short period of time....
Some reports read that there were lesions/bruises/other marks of struggle on the body, but no sign of forcible sex.
Others claim that there were NO lesions/bruises/other marks of struggle, only (3) puncture wounds to the neck. No signs of sex; consensual or forced.
Still other reports claim that there was a definitive rape.
I've also read that the victim's throat was slashed/slit/punctured/etc..
A slash/slit and a puncture are quite different. A puncture would be most likely if the knife was being held to the throat during the commission of a sexual assault. A slash/slit can either be deliberate or unintentional.
For once I wish the media would act responsible and make sure that all of the facts were straight before divulging "information."
Re Erhw post:
So the mystery man (if there was one) could be a pal of Sollecito.
Hypothesis:
Solecito and his pal (PAL) were with Knox in her room getting high on whatever. Meredith comes home, finds shit in the toilet, complains. Knox rushes to kitchen for knife, Solecito follows. The two of them then go to Meredith's room to punish her. Solecito restrains, and Knox delivers the fatal stab. Solecito is distraught that Meredith is dead, covers body. PAL hears commotion, comes to the door of victim's room, sees the body, does not enter the room. Convinced that nobody will believe he's innocent and feeling sorry for his friend, PAL agrees to stay and help clean up, demanding above all that Knox's room be cleaned (bleached) to remove all traces of his being there. PAL then leaves house alone. Goes home by car, dumping victim's two cellphones en route (this is his final favor for Solecito). Knox and Solecito continue the clean-up.
Thank you, erhw!
That source is most helpful. Prone usually means that the killer(s) didn't want to the victim to see the killer's face(s). In this case, I suppose it could be a tactic used to intensify fear, but perhaps the killer also didn't want to see her face as she was killed from behind. (I suppose this also means that she could have been assaulted in the prone position, with the knife held to her neck, which could explain 2 shallow puncture marks.)
The placing of the duvet over the body may show an act of contrition, as I have previously suspected, and could have been placed by any of the attackers.
That attacker felt some form of remorse, at least enough to compel them to cover the body. That person should be the first to completely break silence.
From the same Guardian article I quoted above:
'[The document] said Ms Knox and her boyfriend met Mr Lumumba and went together to the flat she shared with Ms Kercher, arriving at around nine in the evening.
At more or less this time both Mr Sollecito and Ms Knox turned off their mobile telephones, which became active again the following morning, the judge wrote.'
It looks as though the theory may be right about there being a third person involved, but they may be wrong that it was PL (and even tho RS said to the reporter that the person they met was 'his' friend- e.g. from uni), I'm not convinced that it was, the only thing I'm taking from that is that they might have met a third person...maybe someone he knew through AK)
Of course, its entirely possible that PL was around in the vicinity that evening at some point too, for some reason (Ref. cell ping), which might have muddied the waters somewhat. If there WAS a 'fourth person', and RS & AK turned off their phones at around the same time, is it possible for the police check the cell tower log to see if further phones went off at around the same location/time- and check their owners for connections with AK, RS or MK? I don't know much about these things, but I can't imagine that there would be a huge number of people in that area all switching their phones OFF at that moment...maybe a few, but I don't often switch my phone completely off (if I don't want it to ring I just switch it to silent mode) I don't know many people who would.
Still thinking about RS initially saying that he and AK met a 'friend' that night, to 'party' (with only 3 people what can that really mean?) and then the phone call he took while being interviewed, in which a male 'friend' seemed to be angry that he was talking to a reporter...
Of course it could have been Lumumba calling RS, if he is after all involved. Or even his sister or father...but then that doesnt explain the evidence that there was a fourth person in the house...
Going round in circles here!!- still very open-minded and really not sure what to think any more.
Thanks one and all for your contributions, this is one of the best comment threads I have ever seen at any of Steve's blogs (and I have been around for a couple of years now, for my sins!)
erhw,
I've found a lot of times that people's boldfaced lies are laced with hints of the truth.
Some people who followed the Taylor Behl case may remember that a few of us on Steve's board noticed the same thing with the fabrications of Ben Skulz Fowley. Most notedly, when he mentioned being attacked and having a bag pulled over his head. He in essence, was most likely describing Taylor's fate at his own hands.
I don't think RS is all that different in this regard. I do question whether PL was involved at all. Something (maybe it's my gut) is telling me he is little more than a convenient patsy; an easy "fall guy," if you will.
blah wrote: 11.15.07 - 11:05 pm
The CCTV, if I recall correctly, is in the parking garage. If AK and RS did not exit or re-enter throught he parking garage, then they would not have been filmed. Or else the police have additional photos that they have not yet released.
No one here knows where the camera is. The photos posted by Republicca are no official releases. Its obvious that they are not the ones mentioned by the police. Neither can we see AK entering a house or walkway to a house nor is it 'clear cut'.
If AK has been captured leaving/entering a parking garage, then this would mean nothing and would not be evidence. So, the question stands.
Murder Suspect's Dad Slams American Coed
Father of Raffaele Sollecito Curses the Day His Son Met Girlfriend Amanda Khttp://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3875382&
page=1nox--
I want to return to the unflushed toilet (sorry, but i think it's a key aspect of this case).
The original strategy of AK and RS was to make it look like there had been an intruder, who had broken into the victim's room, killed her, locked the door to her room, and had then left the house by the front door.
To fool the police into believing that there really had been an intruder, AK and RS planted faeces (not their own, thus belonging to "the intruder") in the toilet bowl.
When the police took their statements, RS realised that if they both said yes they had seen the faeces, the police would wonder why neither of them had flushed the toilet. This would have seemed suspicious to the police, who might have guessed that the faeces had been planted there. So on this point (and this point only), RS diverged from Knox's statement and recalled that the toilet bowel had been clean.
As we know, RS's father is a urologist and an expert court witness. No doubt this man is called to give an opinion when urine and faeces are involved in criminal or civil court cases. So RS would have had knowledge of the significance of faeces at a crime scene, and he may have believed/hoped that appropriately placed faeces could indeed scupper the police investigation.
knox's cellmate - a real prisoner or a plant - will have the goods on her.
i really doubt she can last 6 more days without spilling the beans
Luke wrote: 11.16.07 - 8:53 am
I think all of the focus on "orgies" and "a wild sex game" is a distracting misdirection in this case.
Simply put, it's the product of sensationalism at its worst.
Is there some form of RELIABLE forensic evidence that I am unaware of? Has that info too been shared, cause that may suggests otherwise?
The official report calls it sexual violence. There is also forensic evidence in it, however this is blacked out:
From the official report: "Tali elementi permettono di affermare l'esistenza di una violenza sessuale essendo evidente proprio dai dati oggettivi sopra riportati la mancanza di volonta di Meredith a quei rapporti."
[English translation by google: "These elements allow us to affirm the existence of sexual violence as evident from the data above objective the lack of will of Meredith those reports."]
I remember, many moons ago, that all A's flatmates said that there was no knife missing from their flat. If the knife belongs to R, (which would be logical) this changes everything doesn't it??
Also...imagine this.
A. Hi love..got a bit of a problem. I've just killed Meredith and I need a hand cleaning up? will you help me?
R yeah, sure.
In R's interview the other day, he said he liked to 'be made to feel important' by A. They are preparing this defence, no? He helped out with the clean up, but no more. Personally, I don't buy it.
(sorry if this has already been said)
Meanwhile, after checking R's hard-drive, police are about to leak the findings....
AndyT, simple question:
If the feces are not of their own and not of Mr. X, where did they get them from?
Its not that easy to find human feces from anywhere, because most people actually flash the toilet.
interesting:
MP's niece 'who slit lover's throat during sex' was 'inspired' by Meredith case
"Detectives who questioned her say she was influenced by coverage of the murder of Miss Kercher, 21, who was knifed to death in Italy while on a student exchange. Three of Miss Kercher's friends are being held for allegedly cutting her throat after she refused to comply with sexual demands.
All are said to have been seeking their own "extreme sexual experience" while high on alcohol and drugs.
A French police source said: "She [Davies] has mentioned the case in Italy, which has received a great deal of publicity here."
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pa...&
in_chn_id=1469
http://www.repubblica.it/news/ir...tml?
ref=hpsbdx2
For me, yesterday, things started to become clearer. Then I read various hypothesis about the 4th man here and I was a little perplexed. It reminded me of when I mentioned Usi, and suddenly, he was the 4th man) In Meredith's room, I imagine there'll be traces of lots of people...it's a student house. I think we can now say that A and R cleaned everywhere else with bleach. (including R's flat, R's knife etc).but left shit in the toilet. We can also say that they spent alot of time trying to make it seem, something that it wasn't; to confuse the police let's say...it was anyone(a random intruder, Patrick, the neighbours downstairs) but us. This all ties in with planting the shit.
I'm with you Andy.
R has already admitted to calling his sister...but did he call his dad too?
I'm sure we will never know...these people are 'better' than that.
R said today...'What have I got to do with that knife? to his lawyer.
If the feces aren't human? The tests would find about this?
RS has been distancing himself from the crime scene since Day 1. RS's dad has been distancing RS from AK from the beginning. IMHO I think RS came up with the "xtreme feeling" and AK wanted to please him.
I have a question as to how fluent RS is in English and AK in Italian as to the quality of their conversations especially if they spent most of their time together stoned.
There's been many thoughtful posters here and I think I've read most posts, if not all. It's all been very interesting especially learning about Perugia.
Sarcastic humour:
RS: 'What have I got to do with that knife?'
Lawyer: 'Well, give me 1 minute to think.'
In fact, I believe it happens all the time. Lawyers aren't concerned with truth, but how can exculpate their clients. Period.
Chikita....other esteemed bloggers say yes they would.
"I remember, many moons ago, that all A's flatmates said that there was no knife missing from their flat. If the knife belongs to R, (which would be logical) this changes everything doesn't it??" damian
Police want premeditated murder charges for Meredith Kercher killing--Filomena Romanelli and Laura Mezzetti, the two Italian women students who shared a cottage with Ms Kercher and Ms Knox, testified "categorically" after being shown the knife that it had never been part of the cottage's kitchen equipment. Detectives say that it must therefore have been taken from the flat of Raffaele Sollecito, Ms Knox's Italian boyfriend, to the cottage "with intent to kill or inflict harm". Times Online 11/16/07
Not any new information, really, but here's an article from Newsweek:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/70610
'Lawyers aren't concerned with the truth.'
'Police want premeditated murder charges...'
I have no experience of these things...a bit naive..but
just on a personal note...I want to find out the truth and I want those responsible punished...and I hope (think?!) they're getting closer.
Thanx A2, for that
Chikita...in a similar vein, I'd personally, need more than a minute.
This quote from RS: "I couldn't believe what I was seeing," he said. "It was hard to tell it was Meredith at first but Amanda started crying and screaming. I dragged her away because I didn't want her to see it, it was so horrible." from http://tinyurl.com/2jp96s at erhw's post (I don't have a post number --browser issue).
means they placed the duvet on MK.
Just catching up, have been offline for a few days.
I believe the relationship between m and A is highly significant and goes beyond a few 'new flatmate teething troubles'.
Just a hypothetical:
It appears that meredith confronted Amanda about the 'strange men'. Rather than just being a disagreement over what A can and cannot do, I believe Amanda will have taken this as a very deep personal insult. A's promiscuity is less likely to be through a love of sex and more likely to be through attention seeking and wanting to please others. A feeling that she can also get men like her mother. Deep down this behaviour is something she despises about herself. When Meredith complained about the number of men, it was tantamount to calling her a slag. Amanda knew this to be true of herself and was embarrassed to have someone (M) point it out to her, especially someone attractive and maybe 'classier' than her. She hated Meredith for reminding her of the type of girl she it. Anger, jealousy, shame, self pity are all strong emotions that Amanda would have felt when meredith confronted her. As a result she hated meredith and after to many drugs felt nothing in wanting to exact her revenge for making her feel so cheap. I believe Amanda didn't embrace her promiscuity with pride. She did it and hated herself for it.
If Amanda was holding her down, I suspect she was the one holding the knife and killed M. Probably in anger rather than sexual fantasy. The others are too deeply implicated in the rape/sexual assualt to come forward as witnesses to her murder. Admitting to seeing A commit the murder, is admitting tobeing in the room, not stopping Amanda, not calling for help, assisting with trying to hide evidence. They are all in too deep.
I also believe that when A changed her story, this was planned (after the murder). She didn't 'crack' under pressure, she planned to tell the police that PL did it, but needed a way to explain how she knew.
from the times:
"The overwhelming view among the people of Perugia is that Mr Lumumba, a popular figure in the town and a resident since 1988, has been framed, a view shared by his Polish-born partner, Alexandra Beata, the mother of their small son. A march demanding Mr Lumumba's release is to be staged by his friends and supporters through the streets of Perugia tomorrow."
alright! i hope the skulls of the small minded bigots that smugly showed their true colours posting here drop down low in shame........the US citizenry has really moved backward since 1980. its like the 1950's all over again.
i hope you fly free and your heart soars Patrick...what good friends you have sown in your time with Perugia!
Sometimes in these comments and in blog posts and articles I read elsewhere, I sense a theme of not wanting to believe Amanda Knox could have been a proactive part of this crime. Mostly, I think it's because she's a woman.
Just remember, you will encounter the occasional female who truly lacks conscience and sees nothing wrong in killing another person. And as for a woman being the "lead" actor in such an awful human drama -- that's as old as Macbeth. Sure, Macbeth facilitated or did a lot of the killing in that play, but the Lady was the engine driving him.
Amanda is attractive to some eyes, and has led what seems to be a pretty normal life up to this point, even a successful one -- but if you read up on the (admittedly rare) female psychopath, you find that they often function just fine on a daily basis in society. They "fake" being human better than their conscienceless male counterparts.
Speaking as a man who was once close to a woman with a strong streak of anti-social behavior, I can tell you -- female psychos can go for years without running afoul of the law.
If Amanda is one of those rare cases -- and yes, I wonder -- she might have lived a good deal of her life a free woman doing what she wanted and never been jailed. She would have simply left a long trail of deceptions, emotionally wounded victims of both sexes, a long trail of people who didn't realize just how she used and manipulated them until they looked back and saw the patterns. She's already been called a pathological liar by the police. In some people, that would be massive insecurity at work, a desperate need to impress others. In others, though, it's decent evidence of that criminal personality disorder.
There was a chemistry between her and Sollecito that sparked this, if either he or Amanda are guilty. But don't assume he was the main actor in the crime. It truly may have been the other way around, and even he didn't realize it at the time.
The above is pure opinion at this point, but it's based on observation and yes, some gut feelings spawned by past cases.
Steve
SOme random clips of Sollecito camp blaming Meredith for everything. Yet, you would think that Sollecito would have some details that he could bring to the press that would give good clues of his innocence and also smear merediths name. Not just this same line of fell in love with the wrong women to clear his name....
In interviews with Italian newspapers conducted from prison, Raffaele Sollecito, 24, said that he never wanted to see Ms Knox again. “If I am here it’s her fault above all,” he said, answering questions through his lawyer.
DNA of victim, roommate on knife
CNN International - 15 minutes ago
"The fact that he fell in love with her is a mistake, but it certainly doesn't make him guilty," said attorney Luca Maori.
In an off-camera interview with ABC News, Sollecito's father, Francesco Sollecito, blamed Knox for the entire situation.
"She has ruined my son's life," Sollecito's father said. "I damn the day he met her."
Sollecito, 20-year-old
From the Corriere della Sera:
They say we must begin to think about a premeditated murder:
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/...07_novembre_16/
retroscena_perugia.shtml
coyotewaits was like:
> Fellow posters and sharp eyed sleuths: The feces does not belong to Kercher,
> the Carabinieri forensics tests have eliminated her.
Really? I haven't seen anything about that in any of the articles I have read. Do you have a source to support your assertion?
> Please call the La Repubblica editors to confirm this little piece
> of shit item, pun intended ^-_-^
Why would anybody do that? Surely if you have read an article which introduces a change to what is known--such eliminating specific parties from being the responsible for the faeces--you would post a link to it, as other contributors have done when new material emerges.
I don't recall seeing any such link from you.
Have I missed it?
Or have you not posted any such link?
I posted the radom clips of fell in love with wrong woman, Don'tknow why it was listed as anonymous.
I think the theme of this thread is that most people want to believe that AK is responsble for the whole thing, or at least mostly responsible, and do not want to think that RS, PL, or someone else was involved in the murder. That's why the vast majority of the posts involve speculation about AK's mind by amateur pyschologists sifting through the limited evidence there is about her.
It is certainly possible that AK is a sociopath who committed the murder and the others are only tangentially involved, if at all. But not many seem to want to accept the police theory that there was a group dynamic here that resulted in the murder.
I really don't see anybody refusing to believe that AK could be responsible, but I do see some of us offering a cautionary counterweight to premature conclusions.
The theme here seems to be that AK was a psycho-bitch who completely lost and killed her roommate out of jealousy or in some kind of pyschotic frenzy. It's possible, but it's not the police theory and there really isn't any evidence yet to support such a theory.
I will have a difficult time believe that the murder itself was premediated. There may have been something else that was premeditated - which would be why they brought a knife from RS's place - but they did a really bad job of premeditated murder, it that is what it was.
I suppose their sloppiness and lack of attention to detail could be explained by:
(1) being high on drugs and/or alcohol, which would impair their judgment; or
(2) that fact that intelligent people who are otherwise inexperienced with criminal acts can make very fundamental mistakes.
The knife coming from RS's flat is a bit of a puzzle, though, and does seem to undermine the official police theory.
I think that the police are desperately trying to "shake the tree" as someone said up post. The whole knife thing is very odd and I can only conclude that don't have enough stuff to get anyone and are desperate to get someone to spill the beans.
The truth of what happened to Meredith probably has a much more simple explanation than claiming the perps have underlying Freudian tendencies. The scenarios suggested by Coyote and bpcl seem possible, and probable. Not totally accurate, perhaps, but close to the truth.
Since it has been reported that AK had spent the night the last two weeks with RS, if she was back at her apt to have sex, it was probably with another man. Her bringing strange men to the apt seemed to be a source of contention with her roommates, so it could work one of two ways: Meredith is already back at the apt when AK and her new man arrive, or Meredith shows up after AK and her fellow are "involved", and an argument ensues.
AK loses her temper with Meredith, grabs a knife from the kitchen, and threatens Meredith, and it goes horribly wrong from there.
Either the new man is wearing the same shoe as RS does, leaving a shoe print, or RS leaves the print when he comes there to help AK figure out what to do. Thinking with his penis has gotten many a man into a situation he regrets, so I can buy the theory that RS is infatuated and in lust with AK and will do whatever she asks to this point.
I think it possible that AK could have confronted Meredith on her own, with the same terrible results, and again, RS stepping in (no pun intended) to help after the fact.
What is left in the toilet probably has a simple explanation, too--whoever was using the toilet was interrupted or distracted before they could flush. Happens at my house all the time--the land line phone rings, someone hollers, the person leaves the bathroom without flushing and forgets to go back right away. Planting feces is just a bit farfetched, in my mind.
We are missing something simple that is crucial to the real story. I just can't figure out what that is.
I wish more evidence like RS computer stuff, the hair in merediths hand . would be revealed. They said that we would get that yesterday. This is all very calculated--they want the premeditated murder story to influence, before they reveal other info--which makes me think that the other info probably clears RS--but cops are hoping that he will speak to defend amanda, or amanda will speak to clear her name and rat out RS. BUt this plan is not working.
I think AK was complaining about MK to RS, and RS was pissed about it. Men are very protective of their love interests. They decided they would scare the shit out of her and get her to leave AK alone. RS already thinks he's a tough guy, with his little knives (ultimate phallic symbols) and snuff comics. MK starts screaming bloody murder when they pin her down and she ends up getting her throat cut. They panic, and decide to frame PL.
If RS had a strong alibi, I am sure his lawyers would be running with it. The phone call from his father turned out to be false. All he has left is that he was surfing the internet. The police should be able to tell when he was actively surfing the net. If that information doesn't clear him, he is screwed since he is too far involved otherwise. The evidence so far at least links him to the coverup, the knife came from his house, and if he cannot show that he was somewhere else when the murder occurred - then there is a good chance he was there.
If there was a 4th man, and A is covering for him, (for some reason) Why did they leave his shit there??
They spent all night cleaning/setting the place up.
you are right blah-- if RS camp had more info to defend RS, we would know by now.
anonymous, I agree about RS feeling like big shot defending AK and his wierd knife and reading collection. Also in interview he did with the sun before he was arrested, he was all about what a big man he is protecting AK---
That would be RS motive for either killing or just cover up--if involved.
A couple questions about Italian criminal law, if anybody knows.
Does Italy have a right against self incrimination? Can the accused be compelled to testify at their criminal trials?
Would there likely be a separate trial for each suspect, or would they be consolidated?
whoever the 4th person is--I think is older and wiser than AK or RS
i don't know if this is old news on this board, but i'll post it a/ways (sorry if it's a repeat)
abc news reports that MK's DNA was found on the tip of blade, while AK's was found on the handle....
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/st...=3875382&
page=1
R's lawyer today, about dna traces found on knife ar R's flat. "...at R's home, they often cooked..anyway, all the technical aspects still have to be verified. It doesn't seem to us that Meredith ever went to R's flat, but I emphasise again that Meredith and R ate together more than once...no blood has been found at R's house or on the knife."
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/
artic...z=HOME_INITALIA
Is it just me, or are they worried?
A (minor?) point I haven't seen addressed:
there is a lot of talk about the "strange men at the house". When where "strange men" last seen at the house? Both RS and AK have stated that AK had been sleeping at RS's house in the last two weeks. So the "strange men" must have come before? How long had AK and MK been living together?
Also, Nana, your theory doesn't explain Meredith's DNA on the knife found in RS's house. MK's roommates have vigorously denied (according to Italian papers) that the knife was taken from their house.
Blah, I'm not 'refusing to accept' the group dynamic theory and deliberately pinning all the blame on AK. I just feel that on the balance of probability, one person in that group was the main aggressor. Not that that makes the others innocent, but to get three almost strangers in a room, all wanting the same thing (to commit sexual assualt followed by murder) is unlikely. It is more likely that one took it too far, or had stronger intentions at the outset than the ohers.
I can;t imagine three people who have only known each other a fortnight sitting round and conspiring to rape and murder an innocent girl (no matter how much she may have pissed them off). None of them would dare suggest this to the others.
In terms of a motive, there is a clear bad relationship between the two, with the superior angle from meredith (AK was scruffy around the house, left faeces in the toilet, too promiscuous). RS only knew M through his girlfriend and PL knew her from the bar. Did M spurn PL's advances? Is that enough for a motive? I bet as a barman he's chatted up a hundred women and been spurned by more than half.
It's not possible to say for any of us here. Only those involved know what happened, but we are all here to speculate.
to blah:
"Does Italy have a right against self incrimination?"-- yes Italy has.
"Can the accused be compelled to testify at their criminal trials?"--no. to clarify, Mr Sollecito's sister or father can't be obliged to testify against their relative.
"Would there likely be a separate trial for each suspect, or would they be consolidated?" no separate trial.
blah- I don't agree that 'most people want to believe that AK is responsible for the whole thing' and it doesn't seem that Steve H. thinks that either, since he just posted the opposite- re people here not to be too hasty in trying to exonerate her just because of her youth, gender, looks etc. Just because some posters are more prolific, does not mean that everyone agrees with them.
I for one am still open-minded- I am still flipping back and forth as each new piece of info comes out- first I think it could have been instigated primarly by AK, then I change my mind and think maybe it was RS, then maybe there really was a mysterious 'Mr X'... I can also see how various 'dynamics' between any combination of the three and MK could have led to the murder. I think most people here would agree that the group dynamics are all-important, even if they also think that AK is a 'psycho-bitch'. (anonymous and Chris- definitely think you're on to something there with that potential dynamic between the nerdy wannabe tough guy, and his whiny new girlfriend, crying and bitching about her flatmate from hell-- imo that would have been irresistible to the 'man' in him, even if they couldn't communicate perfectly language-wise)
Luke- that's exactly what I'm thinking about PL now too. That is quite amazing the support he has in Perugia. IF there was a third person involved, I am thinking less and less all the time that it was him.
Regarding the (IMO) nonsense about 'sex games that went wrong', and today's reports about this being 'premeditated'- from the moment the details began emerging I've found it impossible to reconcile-----
a fatal stab wound
from a kitchen knife
in a bedroom (and I believe it was the bedroom in the flat furthest from the kitchen, even if it had been taken from the girls' flat),
inflicted upon a person that there is clear evidence was being forcefully restrained
by a person to whom she was not related
after what appears to be two preliminary non-fatal attempts,
and then:
not calling an ambulance,
taking her phones,
locking her into her room,
leaving her there alone,
and still not having reported anything by noon the next day...
------with anything less than fully, consciously, premeditated murder. Even if it started as a game, at some point in the above, someone knew before it happened that they or someone else was going to kill her, and they chose to do it or let it happen.
Damian, I'm puzzled about the feces too. If a 4th person participated in the murder and the shit is his, then I don't understand RS and AK behavior:
1) if they didn't want to incriminate the 4th person (in fear he/her might then incriminate them), then why didn't they flush?
2) if they willingly didn't flush so as to incriminate the 4th person, then why aren't they revealing who it is?
Assuming their behavior was rational, this leaves only two options that I can think of: that the shit was brought in and planted; that the shit belongs to a 4th person that was in the house but left without flushing before the murder. I find the latter hard to believe, so I am inclined to think it was planted.
I personally tend
I have been thinking about my last statement about RS wanting to protect Amanda. What if there was an element of a prank involved in this protection scheme (to account for the possible third party). RS and Mr. X make a plan to put on dark clothes and break into the girls flat at a time when only MK and AK are home. Mr. X terrorizes MK while RS pretends to assault AK to make it look like an anonymous attack. The hope is that MK is so upset by it all that she either moves out or at least is afraid to speak out anymore. This also explains the broken window. At some point it all went wrong and MK gets stabbed. AK covers her ears and waits for the screaming to stop.
to damian:
"Many decent, honest italians are penalised by this system...as Giuseppe said, it 'disgusts him'"
raccomandazione sustem disgut me too, but you can't think millions of italians are "raccomandati".
quello della raccomandazione è un brutto fenomeno, ma esiste anche tanta meritocrazia, altrimenti questo paese sarebbe allo sbando. comunque essere raccomandati non significa essere incompetenti.tanto per precisare io sono un libero professionista e le raccomandazioni mi danno fastidio.
Coyotewaits>
"To keep this short I will just cite a few examples,"
OH PLEASE! this makes me laugh...I have not read one of your posts that has been kept short. And I've read them all. This is an open forum, and I think you should reframe from telling others what to read before posting their ideas or opinions. If you see something that you believe is not factual, just show us your facts...not the endless quoting of other posters. We have already read them and are quite capable of coming to our own conclusions. I enjoy your posts but would enjoy them more if they were more succinct.
Rhonda
Is it just me, or are they worried?
damian | 11.16.07 - 2:18 pm | #
I saw a report earlier where RS lawyers said that it was strange that meredith dna on knife, but not strange that AK on knife, since she was there all the time.
Wish I read italian!!
interesting how public RS team is and quiet AK team is.
Me too Eric, it makes more sense.
The police were back at R's flat today. They have 2 bottles of bleach, one empty and the other half empty. We know they cleaned what they could. The shit is there for a reason; like the smashed window, the blood put downstairs, the phones in the neighbours garden. They did these things for a reason.
The only problem I have with the notion of premeditation is that I just can't get my head around motive here. Why KILL????? Both AK and RS had a lot to lose- although I think RS had more to lose than AK, to be honest- she does come across as not fully aware of how fortunate she was in life. Somewhat 'rudderless' as someone here put it, really not grasping the importance of things, or having any specific goals she was working towards as yet (apart from maybe to learn languages and have a good time- nothing particularly wrong with that at only 20, but still, less to lose, as yet).
EITHER the answer is simply that *someone* is truly psychopathic, in the sense that MK 'got in their way' or irritated them, or was inconvenient, and they just coldbloodedly eliminated her for some very banal reason (and if involved, someone else is very suggestible). In which case we will drive ourselves crazy trying to make sense of it, because there won't be any normal 'sense'. OR- Nana, I agree- there is some key information missing- OR both.
I still think a third person can't yet be ruled out- but I doubt it was PL. If there is information missing, I believe its most likely to be in connection with this 'fourth person'. Someone- yes, maybe older, more experienced - maybe with a history of violence, maybe even a criminal record. Someone who had less to lose from murder than the other two, who had maybe done it or seen it before.
That's IF there is a further, as yet unknown person.