Basically, just getting the ball rolling... and making sure my instructions about viewing these comments in the context of the blog were correct.
Steve
Just in case no one notices (I know some readers don't check the post above before they comment), here is a link to the previous "open thread" here at TrueCrimeWeblog.com:
"Open Thread: A Photo of Madeleine McCann?"
Steve
Thanks Steve - I can't say how much I value this 'place' to discuss this case. Thanks for creating the open threads ... and I promise never to call what I am doing 'blogging'.
Thank you, John.
There's a reason I've forgotten to mention in the past that people shouldn't refer to commenting here or on any other weblog as "blogging" -- once you've made your comment, you have no further control over the post. You can't go back and edit, you can't delete. If the blog goes poof (as CrimeBlog.US nearly did, long story, won't go further off-topic discussing it here), then as far you know, your comments are gone forever. Blogging -- even if a blog seems to disappear, most of the time the blogger at least has access to the raw html of the entries. I can go back and add to, edit, enhance whatever I post. Commentators can't do that. That's why I'm rather adamant about noting the difference between leaving a comment on a blog post and being the blogger. The blogger has full editorial control over all the content, including your comment, most of the time.
Here's the catch-22, though: in the U.S., you are legally responsible for what you post in a blog comment, not me. Kinda sucks if you think about it.
When I started blogging back in 2000 or so, there was no need to insist that people be aware of these differences. Then in 2005 or so the mainstream media really started to notice blogs, and they promptly proceeded to screw up the nomenclature. To talking heads on the news channels, ANY message posted to ANY online forum of ANY kind is "blogging" and that's just thick-headed stupid on their parts. I always feel like I'm being incredibly persnickety when I insist that people understand this stuff, and I'm truly not a very persnickety person. But like I said, there is a demonstrable difference, and really, the commentator is at a disadvantage. That's why I want people to be clear about what they're doing, and why whenever I write "get your own blog" I'm really not being sarcastic (well, I have been a couple of times, but not recently). I figure if a person feels like they have enough to say that they follow comments, post constantly and in detail, they may deserve a more permanent, visible platform.
Anyway -- sorry to go on when this is not about that silly note I often make. I appreciated your comment, John, and just wanted to explain my reasons for pointing out what is and is not blogging with a little more detail than usual.
End OT for me 
Here's the catch-22, though: in the U.S., you are legally responsible for what you post in a blog comment, not me.
I did not know that and am found it really suprising!
P.S......that was the nicest "dear John" letter I've ever read Steve lol
Well, it's a pretty recent development, about the responsibility for comments. I think it arose out of a lawsuit in Texas. But to my knowledge, that's the deal -- a blog or message board owner is not held responsible for the content of users/readers commentary -- the person behind the commentary is responsible. Some newspapers with online articles that are written in a blog-like format even include a note to this effect above the comment form.
Again, sorry for the OT -- back to your McCann discussion!
Edited By Siteowner
I'm confused - do we have two threads now? One at the haloscan url and one here?
I just posted a question at the other thread, will put it here to:
Why are only Britons asked to provide DNA/fingerprint samples? How can PJ know the unidentified samples they found are from Britons? Surely there must have been other nationalities at the resort and around the area at the time?
In a word, Martina, NO. I put the haloscan link up for reference only. Consider this -- if you continued to use that thread, eventually only people who saw these comments might know about it. I severed the link from the previous entry to the earlier thread so people would congregate here and use this one instead. I just wanted people to be able to refer to older comments if they needed to. The discussion should continue here.
Martina - I assumed that only Brits stayed at the Ocean Club.
Have you seen the letter from the Leicester police?
http://sic.sapo.pt/NR/
rdonlyre..........mento1.jpg
Sorry try this:
http://sic.sapo.pt/NR/rdonlyres/.../
documento1.jpg
The Correio da Manhă reports that if the McCanns are accused they would be judge in their own country due to the rule of non-extradition of national citizens by the British.
Do you have some information concerning this?
Ok, Steve, thanks!
Thanks also John, I had a look at the letter. Is it real?
The interesting thing about this Leicestershire police letter is that anyone who fills out the form and provides fingerprints and cellphone info, becomes a "party" to the investigation, and therefore is bound to secrecy.
Is this just a good way of shutting everybody up?
(Also presumably those who refuse to comply could theoretically be made arguidos...)
[John, "snoffy" seems to be a word I have invented ---- an abbreviated mixture of snotty-nosed and toffee-nosed.]
Hi Martina
Glad to see you're back.
I am so confused about this Open Thread. Where are all the posts from yesterday with JohnUK and DC ???
Is this a new thread?
Another reason why I don't believe the all children in one app theorie:
Some witness allegedly said only the McCanns apartment was visited by the Tapas9.
So if someone saw this (must have watched the McCann app for close to 2 hours) they also should have seen all the 'guest' children being brought back to their own appartments after 10pm? But nobody did see that?
Hello everybody.
It is nice to be together again.
Thanks Steve
Never mind my prior question. I found the old thread. I am all caught up now
Hi Karina,
I found the thread from yesterday only today! Needlessly suffering for one additional day ... *sniff*
Yes, this is the thread now. Not the other one anymore, but you can still get to it here
http://tinyurl.com/37kdrr
(Does it work?)
In another forum someone put up a real nasty scenario ... She asked, if all the children were together that night, why did three men of the Tapas9 visited them during the dinner, and why was one child sick, and one (Maddie) died. What happened there ... ?? (I think you know where these thoughts lead to, I don't want to type them.)
I'm sure the PJ must be thinking about such possibilities too?
And if all the children were in the one apartment, why would the Tapas grandmother stay behind in the restaurant once Kate came back screaming? In my opinion, this is another illogical theory.
This was published today in the 24h portuguese newspaper:
"Maddie and the brothers, Sean and Amelie, were sedated in the apartment where they were, in the Beach of the Light, with others four children, in the night of the disappearance of the girl, the 3 of May. This certainty of Pol
Ăcia Judiciária (PJ) is based on the first preliminary results (done in September) of the laboratory of Birmingham. Conclusions that are in accordance with the forensic analyses previously made in Portugal, in the National Institute of Medical jurisprudence. According to source of the PJ, do not exist tests of the others four children, children of the friends of the McCann, that proove that they also were under the tranquilizantes substance effect. Such was not analyzed in the tests collected in the house of the Beach of the Light. In this scene, and crossing information with the inspectores who interrogated McCanns and friends, the investigators had arrived at a possible conclusion that the brothers of Maddie would be to sleep - as well as, hipoteticaly, the other children of the couple's friends - when something succeeded the Madeleine McCann.
Martina - I've seen the nasty scenario - to be honest I think its ridiculous (ludicrous) but I'm sure the PJ have thought of this.
This was published in the portuguese newspaper 24horas:
Maddie and the brothers, Sean and Amelie, were sedated in the apartment, in the PDL, with other four children, in the night of the disappearance of the girl, the 3 of May. This certainty of Pol
Ăcia Judiciária (PJ) is based on the first preliminary results (arrived in September) of the laboratory of Birmingham. Conclusions that are in accordance with the forensic analyses previously efectuadas in Portugal,in the Instituto de Medecina Legal.
According to source of the PJ, tests do not exist of the other four children, that proove they also were sedated. Such was not analyzed in the tests collected in the house of PDL. Given this, and crossing information with the inspectores who interrogated McCanns and friends, the investigators had arrived at a possible conclusion that the brothers of Maddie would be to sleep - as well as, hipoteticaly, the others children of the friends of the couple - when something succeeded the Madeleine McCann.
Before yesterday, the spokesman of the McCann, Clarence Mitchell, denied to the 24horas the presence of seven children in the apartment of the Ocean Club. Yesterday, he did not care to answer the phone.
This new version of the events contradicts the thesis defended by the group of friends concerning what really happened the fat
Ădic 3 of May and weakens the thesis of the McCann, who believe that their daughter would have been abducted. The investigators believe that the child could have been victim of an eventual domestic accident."
Sorry I had to split in various posts.
Regarding all the children being in the McCanns' apartment, Martina made a good point.
How come nobody saw these parents take their children back to their respective apartment?
Or was it Obrien who took the kids back before 10pm when Kate found Madeleine missing?
And nobody saw him?
K.
Perhaps they had acess to the appartments by inside and when they were checking they came from outside?
This is getting really bizarre. Seven kids together, unsupervised? And sedated? Sound like a horror movie.
This artcle in Diario de Noticias is also interesting, namely because it is stated that the appartment was sealed from 4th May to the first week of June and that after the dogs sniffed death it was not rented anymore.
http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/10/10/
soc...rante_5_ho.html
Sorry, that should have read "Sounds like a horror movie".
We have so often heard and read about how events unfolded around 10pm on that night. If taking the children back to their appartments would have been part of what happened I'm sure we would have read about it by now.
Never was it mentioned anywhere that the children were present when police arrived either.
If they were taken back before 10pm the same person who stated that all parents were only visitng the McCann app should have seen this too.
I think it's another false assumption - either by the media or by the PJ.
Or a red herring as someone here suggested earlier.
Well, papers yesterday did say that there is possibility they were all together. Well, I don't believe they were.
http://tinyurl.com/266xa9
The McCanns deny that their children were ever sedated and are threatening a law suit.
K.
How do we know that the parents took the children back to their apartments once the alarm was raised? The PJ did not arrive for some time after. I assume that the Paynes were not involved in putting their children into the McCanns apartment as they had a listening device and didn't leave the tables to 'check'. I feel that the letters being sent to those who attended the Ocean Club during that week in April/May is a process of elimination. A process to uncover the real perp. I wonder if they will all cooperate and does it include all the Tapas 9 as well? I still think there is some holding back (naturally) from both police forces.
Hi everyone
My question is this
Are the family who were using a baby monitor to listen in to their children included in this? It sounds somewhat unbelievable
The article in Correio da Manha is very interesting but very long. If you are interested please transalate with Altavista.
http://www.correiodamanha.pt/not...idCanal=181&
p=0
All this speculation about the children being in one room and NOT A WORD from the Tapa friends.
It would be so easy to deny. Why aren't they talking?
Telegraph is now saying
"The police investigation into Madeleine McCann
’s disappearance is refocusing on the theory that she was abducted from her bed by a paedophile."
http://tinyurl.com/2ezqgl
From the same article:
It emerged that Portuguese police have launched the country
’s biggest ever anti-paedophile operation, raiding 75 properties where child pornography has been downloaded.
The operation, codenamed Predator, will analyse 150 computers seized from 80 suspects.
While the raids are not being officially linked to the Madeleine inquiry, they indicate the focus of the investigation has shifted away accusations that her parents, Kate and Gerry, may have harmed the four-year-old and back to a search for a potential abductor.
Karina, good question. Maybe the McCann legal team is asking them not to?
Yes, I believe it is a process of elimination and a way to get the Tapas 7 to cooperate without have to make them suspects if they are asking for everyone to provide DNA plus clothes. Regarding clothes, how would others in the complex remember what clothes they were wearing (I wouldn't expect if I were one of Tapas). Also Nan the Tapas grandmother did go see what was going on, then she had to go back to the bar to get her purse and camera. Now the camera, (hope she took pictures of supper) hopefully proves what everyone was wearing, or maybe someone at another table might have some footage or picture.
Ohhh don't you just love it when the media back pedal. Ahh the poor wee Telegraph. One day it's sedation, not looking good for the parents, the threat of a law suit follows and the next is an article on a putative claim that the PJ are looking for a paedophile. Ludicrous.
That is an excellent point Dee regarding Mrs Payne's mother. She did have a camera and you wouldn't bring one unless you took photos. Would they be time stamped?
Time Stamped - very interesting!
Regarding the raid, I would guess this was the accumulation of several months work. It also can show the PJ was keeping an open mind and looking at all avenues.
Re Dee "I would guess this was the accumulation of several months work."
14 months according to the Correio da Manhă.
http://www.correiomanha.pt/notic...1155&
idCanal=10
Takes care of that then, but congrats to the PJ and I hope they nail them. Thanks Jose
Maybe the swing is relevant after all.
If they were swinging would they not want all the children in the same house so they would not be disturbed by them????
And it would be a reason to sedate them too.
I made a mistake in my last post. I misread the dates: the 14 months were refeering to a similar operation oin July 2005.
The swing would also be a secret binding them together and a secret they would want to keep out of the press.
Dee, where did you get the info that they want clothes? I did not read hat anywhere, only DNA and fingerprints.
Clothes??? For what? To look for ... clues? (Oh dear!)
I hope you are wrong, Dee.
Grannie's camera, good point. But I guess the PJ must have long taken those photos?
If Granny made pics, and if they had a date stamp, and if the PJ saw them, then maybe they KNOW that one or more of them are lying about their presence/absence and that's why they are so convinced that something is being covered up.
Things that have always puzzled me are:
Why did they lie to family and friends saying the windows and shutters had been broken and forced??
Why all the support to the McCanns comes from GM family and not from Kate?
Why did not her mother rush to be with KM in PDL or when they returned to UK?
It seems her mother in an interview in british TV answered when asked if the McCanns were well something like "I suppose so" or "i believe they are" which implies she did not see them.???
I think that is strange.
There are rumors the PJ has a call between KM and her mother saying "It was an accident mom... if you go on i will hang up the phone...."
Would this explain her mother's attitude???
So many questions, so few answers
I believe it must have been from a portg. paper someone on another board translated (perhaps wrong). I checked through a lot of various eng. papers & I can't find any mention of clothes, so I (very embarrassedly) will retract the word clothes!
Marilia:
I also heard that there was tension between their families. To be honest her mum and dad always came across as dignified and genuinely concerned. Whilst his family were self publicising, aggressive and critical.
Where did you hear this rumour about the phone call?
Dee I saw it too but i think it was in an english newspaper
I will try to find it
here it is
the turists were asked about details on clothing
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2625572.ece
I heard the rumor in another forum, annorak
I agree her parents come across dignified and concerned. Nothing to do with GM's sister and brother etc.
Actually I did find some references to tourist & clothing, but not that they are asked to turn in the clothes they wore that night.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2625572.ece
"The tourists are also being asked about the use of their mobile phones and for details of their movements and clothing the evening that Madeleine disappeared." A couple other papers quoted this stating from the Times.
Maybe I am just getting confused.
Hi All,
Steve's really done us proud with this new set up, many thanks Steve. I've always found this a very pleasant forum to discuss this difficult case on and I missed it when it was being updated.
Catching up on all the comments, I'm gobsmacked by the Leics. Police official letter (I noticed there were no ref.no.s on it and other details I would normally expect to see -these things being omitted is unusual in an official Police letter, I know because I deal with them quite a bit in my work) how did it find it's way onto here? But I am pleased (if it's genuine) that they are taking DNA samples of all those present (very belatedly IMO!)they should have doen this from the start even if for elimination purposes only.
I liked the point about the camera and what pictures the 'close friends' may have that may be useful to the enquiry, once again surprised if these haven't been requested already.
The questions we have never had answers to remain as they are... we still don't know. To quote G. Dubya 'We don't even know what we don't know' I won't elaborate into the known unknowns as i think you get my point.
I still think that there's a cold offensive against the T7 (9 minus G & K)to pressure them into splitting and talking.
Who knows where this is going next?
Lizbee
"It seems her mother in an interview in british TV answered when asked if the McCanns were well something like "I suppose so" or "i believe they are" which implies she did not see them.???"
I don't think it neccessarily implies that. English people talk like that especially in public.
What do the English here think?
Interesting discussion. But where did the rumour concerning the mobile phone call come from (the K said to her mother it was an accident?)
Martina,
British people (especailly the upper working & middle classes) can be quite literal and high thinking when describing emotional issues. Therefore if (as we know) Ks Mother had not seen or spoken to her VERY recently but also knew her daughter was facing highly emotional swings (as one would in such a scenario)she would truthfully be able to answer the question with a Yes or No. There's nothing strange in her answer for me given what we know of the family. It would be stranger if that member of the family usually gave detailed analogies of feelings but did not in this instance.
My opinion only as usual.
Lizbee
I missed the word 'not'out:
should read:
...she would not truthfully be able to answer the question with a Yes or No.
Sorry,
Lizbee
Thanks for the new link M
Dee - it is getting confusing!
1) Kate and Gerry McCann affirm never to have given sedative to the Madeleine and to its two twins brothers, Sean and Amelie, opposing declarations made in September for Brian Healy, grandfather of Maddie, that admitted public that the grandsons took Colpol Night (an anti-inflammatory one for children, that induces sleep)...
(...)
2) In an emitted official notice this Wednesday, the McCann couple devaluates the last notice on the case, classifying them as "speculation" and attacking the Portuguese press. In the document sent to the media, Kate and Gerry inform that its lawyers will go "to monitorize" the covering given in England to these notice and that "they will not hesitate in acting in the competent instances if necessary".
(...)
3)In an emitted official notice this Wednesday, the McCann couple devaluates the last notice on the case, classifying them as "speculation" and attacking the Portuguese press. In the document sent to the media, Kate and Gerry inform that its lawyers will go "to monitorize" the covering given in England to these notice and that "they will not hesitate in acting in the competent instances if necessary".
The parents of Maddie so say "to be despropositadas as offensive" the notice - propagated this Wednesday for the 24Horas and the Post office of the Morning - that they give account of that the results of toxicology made by the Laboratory of Birmingham disclose that Madeleine McCann would have ingested drugs to sleep in the night of its disappearance, the 3 of May.
www.sol.pt
Where is "Controller" Mitchel?
It was not him that evaluate all comments and speak loud and clear for the couple Me and Mrs McCann?
http://tinyurl.com/29s7el
I was reading the results of this computer animated video which retraces the time line and it says that someone was leaving the Tapa table every 5 minutes.
It says 7 persons went out 14 times in a period of 2 hrs.
I can't remember where I read it, but it seems to me that one witness had said that only one person (Obrien) was gone from the table.
Do the results of this video study make sense to anyone?
Karina
Do they make sense, Karina, again good question.
We heard first that the waiters said noone left the table.
From an earlier timeline it was widely assumed that Gerry, Jane, Russel and Matthew only left the table, 4 not 7 of the 9.
And that earlier timeline also did not look as if people were leaving every 5 minutes.
I don't know what exactly this criminal psychologist who did the 3D animation took into account, but it sure doesn't make much sense to me.
http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecas...s-kate-
may.html
Saturday, 8 September 2007
MADELEINE'S GRANDFATHER ADMITS KATE “MAY HAVE USED CALPOL”
Brian Healy, the father of Kate McCann, admitted she “may have used Calpol” to help Madeleine to sleep, but said it was “just outrageous to think of anything else." Gerry and Kate strongly denied, on August 16, using any kind of drugs on their children to stop them waking up at night. Calpol is a common painkiller that is used, in UK, to to calm them down or help children to sleep.
I looked up Calpol although it is a painkiller it has sedative properties. So once again a spin to me there is not much if any difference? The question should have been (in the famous ear-pulling, bad body language video we all hotly discussed), do you ever give your kids something to put them to sleep without them being sick or in pain or something to that effect?
timesonline says
Paulo Rebelo, one of Portugal
’s most senior detectives, said that “all lines of inquiry remained open” even though police were concentrating on the involvement of Madeleine’s parents.
in an official announcement.
But then also
They are certain that Madeleine died in the apartment but the question they cannot answer is who took the body and where it went.
in the same article
http://tinyurl.com/2w88cj
I have really enjoyed being on this thread in particular for some of the more zany inputs. I had just about got my head round alien abduction, I was trying hard to understand astrology without the outer planets and even raised an eyebrow to a body being pickled in wine for 25 days. But cmon you guys SWINGERS!?!?!? As a man I found it remarkable that K had found 1 member of my gender prepared to put his body in harms way, but 4 and all at the same table! It could not happen.
Please could we get back to reality does one use a claret or a burgundy for pickling or does it depend on whether Mars is aligned with the moon and the Venusians are not abducting in Portugal.
In spite of all these new articles, we are back to square one.
1. possible accidental death
2. trying to cover it up with the help of the Tapas7
3. no idea what happened to Madeleine's body.
I am still sticking to the abduction story but with some reservations.
Stanley - perhaps the swingers were all pickled at the time.
Martina (+) I think the article on the 3d projection quotes the sources for the timeline - which was from several sources including the one published in the Times. The waiters contradicted this of course. I don't see what computer graphics adds personally - unless we can expect an Xbox or PS3 game based on the event (Tapas Raider 9?).
I think we have reached a little gently circling backwater in this whole affair. The recent stories have been far from convincing. And the only thing that can be construed from PJ activity are:
1) the new guy wanted to visit the scene to see for himself (fair enough)
2) they are trying to create a watertight case by eliminating all the other Brits (which has probably become worthwhile now that the McCanns have an awesome legal team which will exploit any loop hole.
3) that they are publicising recent activity on pedophile detection to show they are not complacent about this issue - but there is no direct connection with Madeleine.
Also there is no sign of the McCanns actively trying to look for M or help the PJ.
Stanley you are so funny, good thing you don't get around more to other sites (you wouldn't get off the floor laughing)! This is the only relatively sane site; that tries hard to back everything up as rule. If you find or found a more sane one, I would be very interested? Sometimes when I do laugh at the crazy places Maddy is, was, moved, different countries, etc. and I feel guilty. I remember my cousin who is a paramedic and he's told me some of the terrible jokes they make when they have to scoop with spoons a family of the road after an accident; so they stay sane. We all hoping for her return, justice and the truth regardless what they is. But I agree it is getting so out there that; maybe they actually are innocent, which is looking simplier than a great number of the other guesses.
Karina - abduction? ok what are the positive indicators for abduction apart from the McCanns own belief? Are you writing off the cadaver dogs? Most reports seem to indicate a level of certainty that M died in the apartment. So if the parents are not implicated then could it not have been a burglar or other intruder? If this was the case why did they take her body?
http://tinyurl.com/2w88cj
And yet another deceptive title "...police return to kidnap story"
I don't know how they get these titles!!
John,
I did forget about the cadaver dogs.
Ok, they are not reliable and why would they smell only Kate ? Don't you think that if the body had been transported, Gerry is the one who would have carried Madeleine? Yet, the dog did not sniff him.
And the body in the car 25 days later??? Nobody has come up with a good scenario for keeping this body in the Portuguese heat.
Until I can figure out a plausible scenario for the accidental death and disposal of the body, I'll say someone else took her.
John, good post. Want to bet Clarence will try & dominate/confuse the press tomorrow about the big bust? Also your comment, "there is no sign of the McCanns actively trying to look for M or help the PJ", is my biggest cause of suspicion of their innocence! What they say and do has never made sense. What happened to the lie detector test (a paper had mentioned they would/could set it up) and they volunteered to take about 3 weeks ago (although they didn't say they would do it in conjunction with the paper), when public opinion was changing? It's the inconsistencies that we are seeing, that has turned the tide in my opinion.
Karina, say John was carrying her in a blanket, sheet or towel, he wouldn't necessarily have the scent on him, and what if the blanket, sheet or towel was what the dogs smell in the car, would that make sense to you?
Karina - its possible that all the stuff about the DNA is misleading - especially that in the car - and it is taking so long to do the 2nd tests (due this Friday I think). What exactly are they doing in that lab?
But the McCanns themselves have said that Kate was shown videos of the dogs 'going crazy' near the car and on her clothing + cuddlecat. Obviously this is not enough on its own - but if you add all the 'little things' don't you get a big thing - i.e. abduction is so massively contra-indicated that what would make anyone prefer that theory?
If it was a definite abduction wouldn't there be bits of evidence pointing that way? I don't see any - not that we know about.
I hope that all that money that was donated IN GOOD FAITH by the public (originally to help find M) is seized and held in trust until this case has been solved. I'd hate to think the McCanns are dipping into it in order to fund their defence.
I have to agree with Dee on the polygraph test.
I would have volunteered to take one a long time ago. In the US, it's pretty standard procedure to take the polygraph test in order to be eliminated from further investigation.
I wonder if they took one in the privacy of their attorney's office. If they don't pass the test, the results are not publicized.
Dee !!!! hey I've got an alibi ...
"Karina, say John was carrying her in a blanket, sheet or towel"
you will be hearing from my lawyers Messrs. Sue, Grabbit & Run.
John, I'll get my checkbook, but I won't pay for campaign managers or overtime, you got it!
Karina,
PJ never told that they close any theorie. PJ said always that all lines of investigation still opened.
But in face of the results (i think they might have) they said the priority line of investigation is the dead of Madeleine.
Abduction continues to be a valid line of investigation. But like us at work sometimes we have to go from a task to another, after redefiniton of priorities. The redefinition of priorities can be made by yourself, by your boss, by something that happened, and so on.
I think it was very easy to kidnnap Madeleine and run away with her to Spain. Or in to a boat.
You see, in Portugal a missing person, even a child, is not a crime until 48 hours (this will change I think).
Because of that, the police start investigate if the missing person doesnt appears until 48 hours later.
After 48 hours of the missing, even the search started before by police (PSP, GNR it depends of the local), PJ starts investigate 48 hours later.
If they cant get proves that help to find the missing person, the case still opened but PJ take out the means affects to the investigation.
John,
I just feel in my heart that I have to give the Mccanns the benefit of the doubt until another explanation makes sense to me.
Why people despise them to such extent is not something I can understand.
Jeannette
Dee et al,
Please see link to Occram's razor this is the mathematical hypothesis that 'the simplest idea is usually correct',or 'return to your first instincts' http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/bae...eral/
occam.html
My personal first instincts and simple ideas were that the T9 were lying, that there is something amiss.
What do others think?
Lizbee
I have resisted answering back uptil now but "yawn"stanley.
Marilia: that is shocking. If she told her mother that it was an accident then her mother should have told her to come clean. I know my mum would.
Calpol: you know what, why not admit it in the beginning? Why lie? They could always have said well the kids had a bit of sunburn and so we gave them a small dose to lower their temperature...
Good point about the camera, hopefully the police have got copies of the photos.
The video simulation is based on the timeline provided by the tapas 9. It basically proves that if they are telling the truth, then its unlikely that there was an abduction. And if they weren't telling the truth and the checks were less frequent, then we shouldn't believe anything they said! imho.
Carlos,
48hrs is an eternity when a child is missing.
I hope they change your laws. The Amber alert system we have now in the States has been very helpful.
Swingers - I dont believe they are. But if they are, they are. It is their personal lives.
I think is normal that friends make hollidays together even with children. Of course the children become the priority, like i think is normal.
Suspects? - I think they are. Too much "missunderstandings"
Guiltys? - No. At this moment.
Abduction or accidental dead? - I dont know. I know is that the missing of the girl, the difficulty to find a body "alive or dead"... is equal for the two lines of investigation. The transport of the body, the difficulties i think they are similar.
That hours, in a zone of vacantions, full of people... and nobody, nobody saw nothing??????
Not the Tapas 7 or 9, but other people in holidays, hot days, people walking on the streets, people on the beach at that hours... Its not real the situation, i think.
But is very, very real 
unfortunnaly
I think it could be very significant that Rebelo - who had been in charge of the Casa Pia investigation - has been assigned to the Madeleine case.
Since finding out about Ms. Cipriano and the possibility that she made a false confession under duress, I have wondered whether the whole Algarve PJ could be a rotten kettle of fish.
I think we now (especially the Portuguese amongst us) have to ask ourselves: Has the PJ been infiltrated by child abusers/ponography makers?
Has a shortage of "available" children (since the Casa Pia revelations) meant that other children have had to be siezed? Could there be a connection to the missing Spanish boy on the Canary Islands? Were certain PJ officers channelling the blame onto the McCanns in order to divert attention from the possibility of an "abduction to order" implicating a wealthy local child abuser - someone known to the Casa Pia investigators? I do hope Rebelo has some good life insurance.
Oh my God, AndyT, are you SERIOUS?
As for that story that the mccanns will sue, i think that is highly unlikely. Just sabre rattling to try to get the portuguese press to shut up.
Their whole strategy is to avoid court. If they sue then it will definately go to court. If the portuguese police never find madeleines body then this may be the worlds only opportunity to find out what actually happened, under oath! Bring it on! I say to the Mccanns.
lizbee, i agree.
Does anybody know if DNA testing can identify ethnic group? I was wondering about the follow up with Brit tourists in PDL - why only Brits?
AndyT - I'm not being snoffy but take an occam's razor to your theory.
I know Karina...
48 hours in a small country, with open borders, with the see around...
Yes I agree with you.
But i know that a kidnnaper usually is someone that, in face of the danger to be catch, can kill.
I dont know if the Amber alert is better to save lives or to catch the guilty one. The priority is to save lives. Only after some period of results can be studed.
But i think that, for a child, i think, between 12 and 14 years old, the 48 hours could be half, but could be 0 hours for a age inferior to 12 years old.
But this is my opinion. I dont made the laws (i think a lot of laws could be made better).
Andy T, you are making a salad with all theories.
Rebelo is a trustfull agent, i think.
I think that because his team in Lisbon is not a team of "good boys and "incompetents players" or with afraid, because they put an embassador, a doctor, the most important and loved pivot of portuguese television (and the leader of Portugal Interests in Euro 2004), the director of Casa Pia, all them in a court of law.
He is not afraid of anything, I think.
I think in a lot of things they dont have "political experience" or "emotional inteligence" to lead with some stuff, but without courage to do the right thing, i dont believe.
AndyT,
We've all been back together again no time whatsoever and you're bang at the spaced out theories again... Does it have to be something really wierd to retain your interest? I still believe that this is far simpler than we can imagine, something happened, an accident perhaps, people panicked as there were no squeaky clean members there (after all they all knew children/infants were being left alone)and lies were fabricated to cover up their omissions as good citizens and parents. What K & Gs part in this is the next question once you've made headway into those initial lies.
Carlos, maybe my salad has too many cherry tomatoes in it, but the other salad - the one with seven sedated kids all sleeping in the one room, being visited at intervals by depraved male tapas looking for sex, with one child vomiting and another dying - really doesn't taste so good either!! There's just too much lettuce.
Right On Lizbee!
Just want to add although I do not know anything about the PJ, it is conceivable that the Spin Team are doing background checks. I bet no matter which country we discuss and "a seasoned police officer", someone, somewhere has accused that officer of something at some time in their history of service.
Swinging I personally refuse to discuss; I won't bore anyone with my reasonings, except to say it is a non issue.
Lizbee, of course you maybe right.
The PJ said that Ms Cipriano killed her daughter because the latter discovered her having sex with her brother.
This sounds to me like a text for a Brazilian soap opera. Have you ever seen one of those? They really are pretty ridiculous.
Actually, I'm outraged by the Maddie case: the irresponsibility shown by parents, police, media etc. !!!
The Cipriano case seems to be more about police irresponsibility.
Whatever the case, each time the perps get to go free.
John follow-up on your question "I was wondering about the follow up with Brit tourists in PDL - why only Brits?" I and I believe others suggested in so many words it could be a way to get the Tapas to produce, in an innocent way without causing the trauma of suspicion? Putting it another way if they ask everyone and they refuse...that will speak volumes, won't it though!
BTW did you get the check yet, Karina's delivering it for all the homework we do for her.
www.sol.pt
Speaking to the journalists in the Directory of Faro, after a meeting with the district director, Guilhermino Encarnaçăo, and new the responsible one of the Department of Investigaçăo Criminal (DIC) of Portimăo, Pablo Rebelo, the national director of the PJ was disclosed hopeful where the laboratory's results arrive soon.
"Still we are not in the ownership of all the results. We wait to have them proximamente, but they are factors that we do not control in the PJ", affirmed, in reference to the examinations that they are to be made in a laboratory of Birmingham,UK. Answering to a question on the alleged possibility of guilt of the parents, he affirmed that "all the inquiry lines continue and will continue in open until the conclusion of the inquiry".
"Any conclusion that if it takes off would be speculation and us in the PJ we do not want to feed the speculation", said. Recognizing that the inquiry "is not easy", Alípio Ribeiro it reaffirmed that the Policy that is director is pledged "in making it with serenity".
With career in the combat to the drug in the Directory of Lisbon, occupied the functions of associate national director. New the responsible one for the DIC of Portimăo of the PJ made career in the Central board of Directors of Inquiry to the Traffic of drugs(DCITE) and was to the front line of the Directory of Lisbon during the inquiry of pedofilia that resulted in the process now in coourt of law.
---
Everything is opened.
I didnet read any trustfull newspaper saying about all childs sleping together.
Only a tabloide with experience in bombastic news when the notice inside has a different mean of the big letters. A tabloide that sale newspapers always with scandals in the front page.
The couple’s official spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “Contrary to renewed speculation in the Portuguese press, Gerry and Kate McCann wish to make it categorically clear that they have never, ever used sedatives on their children."
If they took a lie detector test on that statement for instance they could pass. Capol is defined as a painkiller, but has sedative properties. So in theory it is a truthful statement, so was Gerry's the twins "don't think Maddy is on a little trip", although they originally told them "she's gone on a little trip." It is the twist on words that could get them a pass on a lie detector, can't see why they don't do it?
I've grown cold on this case, but I'm glad to see that Occam's razor is still a tool of our trade. Ferret out the truth about Madeleine no matter who threatens suit.
Here is the latest entry dated 10/10/07 on the McCanns' website. It's short, so I'll post it:
After a few days of ridiculous newspaper coverage in the UK and Portugal it was heartening to hear of the statement this evening from Mr Ripeiro, the National Director of the Judicial Police in Portugal. He has again emphasised that all lines of the investigation, not only Madeleine
’s death, are open and that much of what has been written is pure speculation and in some cases misinformation. Scientific reports that we drugged our children clearly fall in to the latter category.
In the coming days and weeks we hope that only factual material is reported, allowing everyone to focus on finding Madeleine and who took her."
John -
Take Occam's Razor to the Casa Pia investigation itself. It wasn't simple, it wasn't obvious, it wasn't very likely... but it most definitely was true.
As wacky and wild and far-out as Andy's theories sound now, how crazy did the Casa Pia accusations - against the head of the Socialist Party in Portugal, the Portuguese ambassador to South Africa, a television personality, a lawyer, a doctor, and the director of the homes - sound in 2002?
Occam's Razor is a great tool, no doubt about it. But it's not foolproof, and it's in no way 100% applicable to all situations. Sometimes, every now and then, wild and crazy and far-out things do happen to normal, everyday, ordinary people.
Thank you DC; if you weren't here I would probably leave this discussion.
One thing I have learned in life is that ONE theory (in this case Occam's Razor) is never enough to explain or reveal the complexities of life.
No AndyT you are wrong. There is always at the root of every complex case a simple beginning. To muddy waters bring in complexities in the hope that the simple will be overlooked. Breaking news this morning is quite shocking (as if we wern't shocked before) - it's either at the heart of this case or simply another ploy to muddy the waters.
omg it gets worse: Gerry is not Madeleine's real father':
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pag..........ge_id=1811
Brazilian soap indeed. But life is stranger than fiction oftentimes
qualifier: the daily mail article is a month old but this is what is being said on portuguese tv and in 24 horas today.
How true it is... who knows. As carlos said 24 horas is not a respected paper but this is definately sue-able if not true so you'd think 24 horas would be careful.
More twists and turns... no wonder so many of us are gripped!
24Horas Today
Gerry is not the Maddie's Father
The PJ already knows that Gerry McCann is not the father of Madeleine, reports the 24horas within sources to the PJ and the (Portuguese) national forensic medicine.
For the investigators, it was very relevant to determine the paternity of the child that was created by artificial insemination. These diligences were done in England, according to our sources.
It was necessary to know if the biological father was involved in the Maddie's disappearance. After investigation in the sperm bank used by the McCanns, the English authorities found the biological father and concluded that he had nothing to do with the disappearance of Madeleine.
The fact that Gerry is not the Madeleine's father is very important. "It explains why the DNA markers of Madeleine are very different from those of her twin siblings"ť, said a source within the police.
In other words, the Maddie's genetic pattern is different from those of Gerry and her siblings, and there is no doubt in the DNA samples analyzed by the laboratory of Birmingham. There is no possibility that this pattern could be confounded with those of her twin siblings.
The tests were used to obtain a genetic profile and the person was determined by "crossing the samples with the genetic data of the twin siblings"ť explained a source from the institute of forensic medicine.
The Analyses done by the British laboratory, a month ago, bring some doubt about the paternity of Maddie. Those doubts were dissipated. The fact that Gerry McCann is not the father of the child is also important to understand his relationship with Kate.
This is a thoroughly modern crime case; IVF, DNA, heat-seeking helicopters, sperm donors, the Findmadeleine internet site, paypal donations, and of course us, cybersleuthing...Who needs CSI ?
Maggie, as far as I can see (GOOGLE), this morning's breaking news is that Rebelo (of the Casa Pia case and now in charge of the Maddie case) has detained 80 suspected Portuguese pedophiles, in connection with current inquiries.
DC and everyone - yes I know Occams Razor is not a theory as such but a kind of working praxis - but I was suggesting that to get to the heart of this case we need to a) identify the known facts (which we established before are very few) and b) build on the fewest number of possible facts to make a coherent description of events. If you are going to introduce a whole new scenario eg. pedophile ring involving police /cover up and so on - then it would be helpful to point to why this is the best theory rather than just introduce it from left field.
Actually we could dump Occam and go for 'blue sky' thinking - develop all possible (including crazy ) theories and then eliminate them one by one and see what we are left with. If nothing else this would help keep Stanley amused.
I value AndyT's comments - but it doesn't mean I agree with them.
The fact (if it is one) that Gerry is not the biological father is not that surprising since we know they used IVF - a sperm donor is obviously a possibility. I'm not sure that this should have been made public as if M is alive then its a piece of sensitive personal/private info.
AndyT - A paedophile(s) may well be involved but what does this say about the DNA found in the tyre well of the boot? Or many other aspects of the case that are important. It could be a diversion tactic while the PJ get on with solving the case.
John, given the latest 'news' regarding the paternity of Madeleine - this is a missing person possibly murder case and well really anything goes - it's only a matter of time anyway before it all comes out in the wash. The latest blog from Gerry already suggests the parents are thinking Madeleine is dead.
Right ... after some thought ...
IF - Gerry is not M's father then she must have unique DNA in that family
IF - the DNA in the car is anything like 80% (or possibly less) of a fit for M then it must be hers because her parents and sibs have different DNA (cannot be explained by nappies and so on)
IF - the type of body fluids found indicate a corpse then either her body or things which have been in contact with her were in that car
in which case all the PJ are doing is developing the scenario - the sedatives in the hair isn't really crucial but just supportive of the idea of an 'accident'.
The ONLY other alternative is AndyT's - that a pedophile ring with links to the police have her or her body and have planted the evidence that went to FSS in Brimingham. Otherwise how could anyone have her DNA to plant?
Three big IFs I suppose.
Jose: The fact that Gerry is not the father does not necessarily mean Maddie and the twins have a different genetic profile. Very often, people revert to the same sperm donor in case of IVF. So in that case the genetic profile would be quite similar (and the traces in the car could then indeed come from the twins).
Occam's razor: what is the simplest theory? IMO, Maddie wandered off when she woke up alone in the appartment and somebody took her. Why would the McCanns have stayed on so long in Portugal and taken the initiative to ask for more tests from the UK? The PJ are also clearly reverting back to this possibility.
Andy T
.......i think your spot on with peadophiles infiltrating the pj, if you research the child abuse in portugal it is RIPE...i even emailed the mccanns the day after maddy went missing and told them to get british help,do not trust the pj!
Sahron - I think it is being suggested that he is the biological father of the twins but not of M.
John - that would of course not be impossible but has this been discussed anywhere? So far, I've only seen suggestions that he is not the biological father of M. How likely is it to be able to father twins through artificial insemination after having had to resort to a donor for your first child? Perhaps not impossible, with science processing and new AI techniques, but it would be interesting to have more evidence on this. The theory of a paedophile ring with links to the police seems a bit far fetched to me. Remember the Dutroux case in Belgium? The was huge speculation at the time that a paedophile ring with contacts to the Belgian government and the royal palace was involved, but it just turned out to be Marc Dutroux and 1 or 2 of his friends.
Sharon this is a quote from Jose's posting of the 24 Horas article:
"The fact that Gerry is not the Madeleine's father is very important. "It explains why the DNA markers of Madeleine are very different from those of her twin siblings"?, said a source within the police.
In other words, the Maddie's genetic pattern is different from those of Gerry and her siblings, and there is no doubt in the DNA samples analyzed by the laboratory of Birmingham. There is no possibility that this pattern could be confounded with those of her twin siblings."
This is why it is thought to be significant.
Does anyone have a link to the article about the paternity?
pinkdrummergirl, i tried to link to your article but it didnt work
Clarence M seems to be strangely silent.
Gerry claims to be the natural father:
http://tinyurl.com/2vx8og
Re ali
Try the following link to the article 'Gerry is not Madeleine's real father' published the 12th september.
http://tinyurl.com/ywc93o
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
try this one...but maybe this has gone the way of the maid story, the 7 kids in one room story etc etc
sorry didnt see jose had posted...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top...89520-19931974/
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for Mr McCann and his wife Kate, said: "Due to further unwarranted, unsubstantiated and totally inaccurate speculation in the Portuguese press today Gerry and Kate McCann and their lawyers have authorised me to issue the following statement.
"For the record, Gerry is the biological father of his daughter Madeleine. A newspaper report in the 24 Horas newspaper suggesting otherwise is nothing short of lies.
http://www.paternitytestinglabs....adeleines-case/
This is a very interesting article:
First DNA test results on Madeleine’s case (May 24th)
In addition, Madeleine’s genetic profile was ‘assembled’ from her parents’ profiles instead of having taken DNA from her belongings, such as toothbrush or hair.
very interesting site dee, thanks.
It also says: "One of the drawbacks of the otherwise powerful and seemingly infallible DNA profiling resides in its extreme sensitivity. A person
’s DNA sample can very easily be contaminated with another person’s DNA at the contact of a finger. So far, forensic science allows police to obtain a DNA profile from a sample as long as it is not mixed with other person’s DNA, and it is not degraded (DNA breaks down as time passes). Because of these limitations, many cases usually go to a dead end."
But FSS are working on a new computer system to overcome this.
I did think it laughable when the Mccanns were saying her DNA could have come from the twins things but maybe that was in fact possible.
However there has been an editorial declaration in 24horas standing by their story that Gerry is not the father (biological) and that the hair in the boot did have a follicle which could only have come from a corpse.
on the same site it also says that traces of madeleine were found in another car: "In addition, the dogs also found traces of blood in the trunk of another car, allegedly belonging to McCann’s acquaintances."
Forgive me if you all know this, I was travelling in central america in july and august and missed out on this bit of info...
In the same site:
http://tinyurl.com/32baqt
26th of August Findings in Madeleine's case stir controversy.
New findings in Madeleine's case bring unexpected results, this time complicating the McCanns position. A team of police sniffer dogs found suspicious traces of odour in the keys of a rental car that had been used by the McCanns a few weeks after Madeleine vanished.
British news sources commented that Portuguese police thinks this evidence may indicate that the girl's body was relocated using this car. In addition, the dogs also found traces of blood in the trunk of another car, allegedly belonging to McCann's acquaintances. These developments feed newer hypotheses suggesting that the McCanns are somewhat involved in Madeleine feared death. The immediate question these developments raise is whether the new evidence would be subject to DNA testing to confirm that a body was indeed carried in these cars and if so, establish the identity.
I have never seen in any newspaper that traces of blood was found in the car of a McCann's friend. Did you read somewhere?
Andy said
"Since finding out about Ms. Cipriano and the possibility that she made a false confession under duress, I have wondered whether the whole Algarve PJ could be a rotten kettle of fish.
I think we now (especially the Portuguese amongst us) have to ask ourselves: Has the PJ been infiltrated by child abusers/ponography makers?
Has a shortage of "available" children (since the Casa Pia revelations) meant that other children have had to be siezed? Could there be a connection to the missing Spanish boy on the Canary Islands? Were certain PJ officers channelling the blame onto the McCanns in order to divert attention from the possibility of an "abduction to order" implicating a wealthy local child abuser - someone known to the Casa Pia investigators? I do hope Rebelo has some good life insurance."
I was thinking along the same lines. And I was also thinking that Rebelo, if he lives up to his name, might be in danger if he starts digging deeper ...
Someone's translation of the 24 Horas editorial defense:
DECLARATION
I want to declare here: the news making the headlines in today’s cover is really relevant. The fact that it has been proven — according to sources this newspaper has in the PJ and in the Instituto de Medicina Legal [national forenscis intitute] — that Gerry is not Maddie’s biological father explains a big part of the problems that this investigation has been facing, namely that, by doing DNA testing, it found contradictory results. While this fact was not cleared, given the testimonies and the other evidence gathered so far, the police could not, in any way, ever find out what really happened.
I also want to declare here that we considered the possibility that who gave us is this information might in any way be instrumentalizing 24horas to defend its own interests. After we made that consideration, we came to the conclusion that the the main issue — the veracity of the news — was not in any way put in doubt, not least because our journalists checked it with two different, unrelated sources. These are things that we do every day. But today, given the sensitivity of the issue, I want to declare that, as usual (and as we are the only newspaper that does it sistematically and not only when that can avoid us a legal suit), if we find out we were fooled by someone or that we made a mistake, we’ll be here to correct it in the headlines.
Pedro Tadeu
Concerning the McCanns friens the Correia da Manha reports this:
McCann Couple
Friend's couple would be examined
The Judicial Police has prepared letters of rogatory and they can be sent to England at any moment - via Eurojust or by the General Procurator of the Republic. The aim is to interrogate the friends that were with the McCann couple in Praia da Luz and apprehend objects, such as the diary that Kate is keeping in her house
The couple should be examined after the PJ has received the final results from the laboratory of Birmingham, and everything indicates it could be tomorrow - and also in function of the friend's answers.
Re John
Do you have the link to the genuine text of Pedro Tadeu?
I firmly believe due to research and articles i have read that there are "unappropriate" people working in the PJ and acting as higher levels of authority. I believe in time it will come to light that the church, PJ and some higher authorities will have had some involvement in child abuse/disappearance etc. Just my belief but from day one I have stated that this is highly likely.
So a group of paedophiles decide to abduct a child from someone in the Ocean Club. those holidaying in the club are likely to earn in excess of six figure salaries. They would be highly paid, highly motivated people. The exposure of abducting a child from a family of this kind would be too risky and lead to exposure. Paedophiles arn't stupid. This theory doesn't wash with me.
As PDG remarked earlier, the McCann's should sue. Then it would all come out in court.
Gerry not the father ... ??
I feel like in a badly constructed who-dunnit TV show. Too many twists, too many false leads, too many fashionable ingredients, too many innocent creeps, too many unknowns in the equation ... I feel I will fall asleep if there is another Breaking Rumour.
But I have a quite good feeling re Rebelo. Starting to hope he might lead the case somewhere more tangible after all.
Jose (FR) this is the best I can find - its not online but only in the printed paper:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=...?pic=rst0kk&
s=2
Jose: snap!
Yes I haven't seen it anywhere else either(blood in other car belonging to mccann aquaintance)but thought that was because I wasn't following the case so intently in july/aug.
Has this site made a mistake?
Maggie wrote (11.29am): "So a group of paedophiles decide to abduct a child from someone in the Ocean Club. those holidaying in the club are likely to earn in excess of six figure salaries. They would be highly paid, highly motivated people. The exposure of abducting a child from a family of this kind would be too risky and lead to exposure. Paedophiles arn't stupid. This theory doesn't wash with me. "
I have to agree with Maggie. Why would a paedophile ring stage such an elaborate abduction? There was simply too much risk at being caught. Makes more sense to snatch a child off a crowded beach or playground or other high traffic area.
You know how easy it is to find out if Gerry is Madeleine's father?
Ask Kate's doctor. He/She would have supervised the fertilization, and he/she would most definitely know if Gerry or another man had given the sperm.
Personally? I think it's absolutely ridiculous for any newspaper, tabloid or not, to not only make the claims but to refuse to back down from them when the people being claimed against tell them to.
Methinks 24Horas should find themselves a new "source close to the investigation"... because the one they have now is turning into a moron.
I haven't read about that either PDG. I started following early Sept. I think, possibly late August.
DC Not sure I would trust Kate or Gerry on that one, only science.
Off topic I know but since i signed up to the diggit thingy i've recieved loads of junk mail. Anyone else?
DC, and
Mistakes have been known to occur in in-vitro labs. Only DNA will be able to determine once and for all who the biological parents are.
Thanks Pinkdrummer girl and jose for the links
Billie -
Mistakes have been known to occur in DNA and forensics labs, too. That fact doesn't seem to dissuade the people who claim that we should put 100% faith in allegedly leaked results of tests that aren't even finished yet, does it?
So who do you put your faith in? If the McCanns and their IVF techs/doctors say that he *is* her father and the DNA labs say that he isn't... who do you believe? Because no matter which one you choose, it means that the other one screwed up.
I don't think it's at all reality that he's not her father. Mainly because they've been testing her DNA, and his, and Kate's, and the twins', since July... and if he weren't her father, we'd have known about it long before now.
Or at least we'd have seen it somewhere other than WS and the Mirror forums before now, because it's been floating around on both of them since August. I've thought for a very long time that these reporters were getting their "headlines" by trolling the forums, and to my mind, this story is just more proof that that's exactly what they're doing.
DC,
If I had to choose, I would absolutely put my faith in the DNA results over the words of the McCanns and/or their doctors simply because I cannot believe anything team McCann says anymore.
But in case I missed something, why is the fact that Gerry may or may not be M's real father even matter at this juncture? I don't understand the significance of it in relation to M's disappearance. I'm thinking it may all be just another tactic to diffuse focus on the real matter i.e. finding out what really happened to M. Or could it be a ruse to somehow garner sympathy for the McCanns?
To pinkdrummergirl,
I didn't sign up for the diggit thing but I have been getting tons of error messages - small pop up screens asking me if I wish to debug due to a runtime error - every time I log onto this new site. Very annoying!
Billie and everyone else:
I really need to know as soon as possible if you encounter a problem like that. Just click here and send me a message if you do. Has anyone else encountered a problem like the one Billie described? I have not, and haven't had anyone else notify me of such a problem.
The site is called "Digg" and it is a social bookmarking site that's incredibly popular and can drive tons of traffic to any website that makes it to Digg's main page. One huge problem I had with CrimeBlog.US and HuffCrimeBlog.com was the fact that if I was lucky enough to have an entry "Dugg", the sites would crash -- this made me very angry, because lots of traffic should be nothing but good for any weblog. Success with an entry bookmarked on Digg shouldn't be able to crash a site hosted by blogspot, though (and this one is, even though it has its own URL). That's why I integrated Digg buttons into entries. You can only use the Digg button if you register for that site -- I am in no way associated with it other than having my own account there. It takes less than 30 seconds to register.
Billie, you may want to see if your browser is out-of-date or if the problem happens in another browser. I'll check Internet Explorer to see if the problem occurs when I use it with that browser.
Thanks,
Steve
From Times today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2633827.ece
it says:
" On Tuesday a team of Portuguese detectives visited the ground-floor apartment where the McCanns stayed to take measurements for a detailed reconstruction of events. They were said to have been particularly interested in the small service area beneath the apartment."
So may be this 'service area' is part of the answer as to what was done with the body.
Thanks, Steve. I'll check the status of my browser -- my technical problems may well lie elsewhwere and not at all with your site.
Steve
No technical difficulties here. I use Firefox.
So, the McCanns have officially denied that:
1. they sedated the children
2. that Gerry is not the biological father
I can't find anything where they denied that more children were sleeping in the apartment on May 3rd. Has this been officially denied by the McCanns?
After today - Gerry is not the father and yesterday (?) six/seven kids sleeping in apartment - I think we are being conned. In future I am going to wait a day for the denial before I even think about the allegation.
I think someone predicted before that we were going to get a series of easily denied allegations. Is this a Clarence Mitchell tactic?
Next? - there is no service area?????
Re Karina I can't find anything where they denied that more children were sleeping in the apartment on May 3rd. Has this been officially denied by the McCanns?
Of course!
http://tinyurl.com/32j799
"It's utter rubbish," said Mr Mitchell.
"If you put seven children together, you're going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep than three."
I was also wondering what/where this service area is. I have often had vacations in mediterraenian countries and lived in typical holidays apartments, but never had a service area to call my own. Or is this only for the upper class club holidays? What's it supposed to be used for?
Jose,
Thanks for the link.
Regardless of what the service area is, it seems to me that it would have been searched when Madeleine disappeared.
Maggie said "So a group of paedophiles decide to abduct a child from someone in the Ocean Club. those holidaying in the club are likely to earn in excess of six figure salaries. They would be highly paid, highly motivated people. The exposure of abducting a child from a family of this kind would be too risky and lead to exposure. Paedophiles arn't stupid. This theory doesn't wash with me."
I hasten to add that the paedos in question had to have first checked that the McCanns were so bloody tight fisted that out of their "six figure salaries" they felt the baby sitting service was out of their league. Of course Madeleine was not abducted, who in their right mind (I've just realised that is a contradiction regarding a paedophile) would take a child from a complex that provided a child minding service when there would be many in the district that did not.
Some people on this thread say that team McCann will be following this (and other) threads if so c'mon Clarence earn your coin boy come and join us. Even the P.J. cannot stop exchanges of ideas on the internet. Of course I could be all wrong we maybe already have a "team" member on board, anyone want to own up?
It is possible that a member of the "babysitting" service knew that the mccanns constantly left their children alone and took madeleine - just a thought!!
Also if she wandered off - i do believe there was a report of her in a supermarket - is this true???
hard to decipher fact from fiction these days
Stanley great point..."would take a child from a complex that provided a child minding service when there would be many in the district that did not". I also might add and if not the parents would be awake at that hour, not asleep (very risky).
On a lighter note, would anyone be surprised if Zaza Gabors husband, Prince Von vat's his name appeared on Entertainment Tonight, claiming he was the Dad? Who knows who will pop out for 15 min. of fame?
Lynn I remember reading the staff didn't know these parents had kids.
Dee, 'Prince Von vat's his name' LOL ).....Heaven knows who the real father is (IF) this is true. By all 'accounts' the real father has been contacted and eliminated!
You know when the McCann's strenuously deny something methinks they doth protest too much...
And yes the staff did remark that they were surprised to hear that the Tapas 9 had children. But perhaps that was the night staff...
Maggie & Dee
Looking at Kate and knowing his reputation look no further the dad has got to be David Blunkett!
Just because Kate was artificially inseminated, does not mean that is how the pregnancy occurred. AIs fail regularly, and if Gerry was the problem in conceiving, she may well have had an affair to produce the child she so desperately desired.
But, in my opinion, Gerry is the father. If you put a pic of Gerry, Kate and Madeleine side by side, she is a near perfect mix of them both. The resemblance to both parents is striking.
i read that kate had problems conceiving because of endemetriosis.
the reason for the ivf is cos kate has endemetriosis.
hope im not repeat posting, but last one didnt show up.
Now I have to admit but didn't dare say this in the early stages of this case for fear of appearing as a total anti McCann but I have always had a problem with the likeness of Madeleine with her parents. I thought she bore a little resemblance to Kate but that Gerry was not the father. I always wondered if he was her father.
Endo means that conception is risky. Of all the fertility risks this is the highest. There are however grades for endometriosis. Perhaps Katies was slight - but it would have to mean not involving the fallopian tubes.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/v...e-main-
suspects
I hope this is true (but who knows):
"The final batch, which is considered key to the entire investigation, has been overdue for several weeks but the Daily Express has learned that the crucial results are now ready. The results will be passed on to the McCanns later the same day.
Police on the Algarve believe that the findings will provide them with enough evidence to bring charges against Kate and Gerry McCann."
Regardless, thank goodness the results will be passed on the McCanns... everyone deserves that right; guilty or innocent.
It will be interesting to watch the how each side spins those DNS results (normally considered facts) or can you actually use the word facts in this case? But that's where my mind wants to focus on.
another shocker: maddy dad identified and from Birmingham. 24horas.
Hi All, been working hard so just catching up with developments.
For my two'penorth I'd always beleived that M was the product of selective AI by K & G. I seem to remember that they went abroad for the private treatment because it would be quicker than NHS. BY selective AI I mean that they chose only v. healthy sperm & eggs but they did not choose sex etc.
Once they had M successfully they returned a year later for a second batch to be transplanted rsulting in the twins. I don't see anything unusual in any of this and even if G was not the sperm donor (which I doubt given physical conparitors) I really do fail to see how it matters unless of course he was not the bio father and very obviously alientated towards M which I see no evidence of.
This line of enquiry is for me a bit of a dead end i.e. you only answer the questions you really knew the answers to anyway plus they are not that crucial to the case.
another shocker: real dad has been tracked and is from birmingham. 24horas.
OK guys - I finally found you - you just thot you got rid of me by leaving me on the side of the road - thats called cruelty to sr. citizens - j/k
I still don't believe a word the mccanns say - nor do I believe a word the tapas 7 say - remember if one goes down they all go down - their careers and future are at stake - don't believe mccanns will sue - wouldn't they be deposed ???
I believe gerry is very controlling with kate - have you noticed how she kinda walks a step or two behind him - kinda reminds me of winkler holding her attys hand coming into court -
sorry bout double posting but i cant see if my comment has gone up despite refreshing page several times.
lol and welcome back pdx...
Hi Pinkdrummer,
Could you post the article from 24Horas?
Thanks
WB - You've managed to wrestle out of the Mirror Forum jungle, OMG it's so mad in there. Welcome to sanity and reasonable discussion once again.
Mwoa x Mwoa x on both cheeks,
Lizbee
Lizbee it is very relavent only from the DNA perspective on how the DNA was done; if it was based on a toothbrush, "no", if it was based on K & G's DNA "yes". The first DNA taken was from genetic profile was ‘assembled’ from her parents’ profiles instead of having taken DNA from her belongings, such as toothbrush or hair (link http://www.paternitytestinglabs....deleines-case/)
I can understand the first set being done this way, why would you trust a parent for instance to give you the "right toothbrush"? Hopefully they got all toothbrushes?
So the new test (from that same url in my previous post) "Experts at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham have spent more than two months analysing a huge amount of evidence collected by detectives."
I give 2 sh#ts who the father is; I want to see the evidence (blood, car, hair DNA evidence. Unfortunately in this case inconsistent statements will add up (in this case; regardless of spin.
Dee,
I absolutely agree re: DNA & evidence that goes without saying.
I was answering an overarching query re: parenting non-bio children which for me is a non starter.
You are absoluteley correct in focusing on the DNA attribitors and detailed analysis of where,when, etc, deposited.
its just the front page, karina, hope the link works
http://www.24horasnewspaper.com/...pa/
Pagina01.jpg
Here is the link for the biological father from Birmingham
The true father of Madeleine was identified in England by the British policy, by request of the Judiciary Policy, knew the 24horas next to responsible sources of the PJ. The sperm donor that allowed the conception of Madeleine was not interrogated because the authorities confirmed that he was in England the date of the disappearance of the child, 3 of May. According to our sources in the PJ, the biological father of Maddie had nothing to see with the disappearance of the child - as, by the way, the 24horas had notified yesterday. ....
The PJ knows that Gerry McCann is not the biological father of Maddie, as the 24horas notified yesterday and reconfirmed with some responsible sources of the Judiciary Policy and the National Institute of Medicina Legal (INML). "Gerry McCann was not the donor of sperm for Maddie. He was the donor for the twins. But it is possible that Gerry himself does not know that he is not the biological father. It could have happen a exchange in the laboratory ", said to the 24horas source of the INML.
Pinto da Costa, former president of the Institute of Medical jurisprudence of the O'Porto, supports the explanation, without referring to the Maddie case. "Already happenned some cases of artificial insemination where the husband was not donor one time and was donor other times. It is enough that, at that moment of the life, the person has its fertilizadora capacity diminished by reasons several, as exhaustion or stresse extreme ".
http://www.24horasnewspaper.com/...ews.php?
id=7789
Marilia and Pinkdrummer,
Thanks for the links.
How credible is the 24Horas?
I am not sure I understand the article. It says it's possible that Gerry does not know he is not the biological father but 24 Horas has identified the biological father as someone from Birmingham ???
Karina,
Yep, that's what they're saying. As far as how credible they are, I don't know... but if their cover isn't modeled on the old Enquirer covers, I don't know what is.
It says that the PJ knows GM is not the father and that GM may not know he is not. It could have happen a mistake.
A well known scientist says it can happen that the father is not donnor one time due to weak fertilization at thar moment because of stress. He is not commenting on M case but speaking in geberal.
The 24H is kind of a tabloid
Hey Lizbee, I was responding your last question of 8:23. However,my 3