Basically, just getting the ball rolling... and making sure my instructions about viewing these comments in the context of the blog were correct.
Steve
Just in case no one notices (I know some readers don't check the post above before they comment), here is a link to the previous "open thread" here at TrueCrimeWeblog.com:
"Open Thread: A Photo of Madeleine McCann?"
Steve
Thanks Steve - I can't say how much I value this 'place' to discuss this case. Thanks for creating the open threads ... and I promise never to call what I am doing 'blogging'.
Thank you, John.
There's a reason I've forgotten to mention in the past that people shouldn't refer to commenting here or on any other weblog as "blogging" -- once you've made your comment, you have no further control over the post. You can't go back and edit, you can't delete. If the blog goes poof (as CrimeBlog.US nearly did, long story, won't go further off-topic discussing it here), then as far you know, your comments are gone forever. Blogging -- even if a blog seems to disappear, most of the time the blogger at least has access to the raw html of the entries. I can go back and add to, edit, enhance whatever I post. Commentators can't do that. That's why I'm rather adamant about noting the difference between leaving a comment on a blog post and being the blogger. The blogger has full editorial control over all the content, including your comment, most of the time.
Here's the catch-22, though: in the U.S., you are legally responsible for what you post in a blog comment, not me. Kinda sucks if you think about it.
When I started blogging back in 2000 or so, there was no need to insist that people be aware of these differences. Then in 2005 or so the mainstream media really started to notice blogs, and they promptly proceeded to screw up the nomenclature. To talking heads on the news channels, ANY message posted to ANY online forum of ANY kind is "blogging" and that's just thick-headed stupid on their parts. I always feel like I'm being incredibly persnickety when I insist that people understand this stuff, and I'm truly not a very persnickety person. But like I said, there is a demonstrable difference, and really, the commentator is at a disadvantage. That's why I want people to be clear about what they're doing, and why whenever I write "get your own blog" I'm really not being sarcastic (well, I have been a couple of times, but not recently). I figure if a person feels like they have enough to say that they follow comments, post constantly and in detail, they may deserve a more permanent, visible platform.
Anyway -- sorry to go on when this is not about that silly note I often make. I appreciated your comment, John, and just wanted to explain my reasons for pointing out what is and is not blogging with a little more detail than usual.
End OT for me 
Here's the catch-22, though: in the U.S., you are legally responsible for what you post in a blog comment, not me.
I did not know that and am found it really suprising!
P.S......that was the nicest "dear John" letter I've ever read Steve lol
Well, it's a pretty recent development, about the responsibility for comments. I think it arose out of a lawsuit in Texas. But to my knowledge, that's the deal -- a blog or message board owner is not held responsible for the content of users/readers commentary -- the person behind the commentary is responsible. Some newspapers with online articles that are written in a blog-like format even include a note to this effect above the comment form.
Again, sorry for the OT -- back to your McCann discussion!
Edited By Siteowner
I'm confused - do we have two threads now? One at the haloscan url and one here?
I just posted a question at the other thread, will put it here to:
Why are only Britons asked to provide DNA/fingerprint samples? How can PJ know the unidentified samples they found are from Britons? Surely there must have been other nationalities at the resort and around the area at the time?
In a word, Martina, NO. I put the haloscan link up for reference only. Consider this -- if you continued to use that thread, eventually only people who saw these comments might know about it. I severed the link from the previous entry to the earlier thread so people would congregate here and use this one instead. I just wanted people to be able to refer to older comments if they needed to. The discussion should continue here.
Martina - I assumed that only Brits stayed at the Ocean Club.
Have you seen the letter from the Leicester police?
http://sic.sapo.pt/NR/
rdonlyre..........mento1.jpg
Sorry try this:
http://sic.sapo.pt/NR/rdonlyres/.../
documento1.jpg
The Correio da Manhă reports that if the McCanns are accused they would be judge in their own country due to the rule of non-extradition of national citizens by the British.
Do you have some information concerning this?
Ok, Steve, thanks!
Thanks also John, I had a look at the letter. Is it real?
The interesting thing about this Leicestershire police letter is that anyone who fills out the form and provides fingerprints and cellphone info, becomes a "party" to the investigation, and therefore is bound to secrecy.
Is this just a good way of shutting everybody up?
(Also presumably those who refuse to comply could theoretically be made arguidos...)
[John, "snoffy" seems to be a word I have invented ---- an abbreviated mixture of snotty-nosed and toffee-nosed.]
Hi Martina
Glad to see you're back.
I am so confused about this Open Thread. Where are all the posts from yesterday with JohnUK and DC ???
Is this a new thread?
Another reason why I don't believe the all children in one app theorie:
Some witness allegedly said only the McCanns apartment was visited by the Tapas9.
So if someone saw this (must have watched the McCann app for close to 2 hours) they also should have seen all the 'guest' children being brought back to their own appartments after 10pm? But nobody did see that?
Hello everybody.
It is nice to be together again.
Thanks Steve
Never mind my prior question. I found the old thread. I am all caught up now
Hi Karina,
I found the thread from yesterday only today! Needlessly suffering for one additional day ... *sniff*
Yes, this is the thread now. Not the other one anymore, but you can still get to it here
http://tinyurl.com/37kdrr
(Does it work?)
In another forum someone put up a real nasty scenario ... She asked, if all the children were together that night, why did three men of the Tapas9 visited them during the dinner, and why was one child sick, and one (Maddie) died. What happened there ... ?? (I think you know where these thoughts lead to, I don't want to type them.)
I'm sure the PJ must be thinking about such possibilities too?
And if all the children were in the one apartment, why would the Tapas grandmother stay behind in the restaurant once Kate came back screaming? In my opinion, this is another illogical theory.
This was published today in the 24h portuguese newspaper:
"Maddie and the brothers, Sean and Amelie, were sedated in the apartment where they were, in the Beach of the Light, with others four children, in the night of the disappearance of the girl, the 3 of May. This certainty of Pol
Ăcia Judiciária (PJ) is based on the first preliminary results (done in September) of the laboratory of Birmingham. Conclusions that are in accordance with the forensic analyses previously made in Portugal, in the National Institute of Medical jurisprudence. According to source of the PJ, do not exist tests of the others four children, children of the friends of the McCann, that proove that they also were under the tranquilizantes substance effect. Such was not analyzed in the tests collected in the house of the Beach of the Light. In this scene, and crossing information with the inspectores who interrogated McCanns and friends, the investigators had arrived at a possible conclusion that the brothers of Maddie would be to sleep - as well as, hipoteticaly, the other children of the couple's friends - when something succeeded the Madeleine McCann.
Martina - I've seen the nasty scenario - to be honest I think its ridiculous (ludicrous) but I'm sure the PJ have thought of this.
This was published in the portuguese newspaper 24horas:
Maddie and the brothers, Sean and Amelie, were sedated in the apartment, in the PDL, with other four children, in the night of the disappearance of the girl, the 3 of May. This certainty of Pol
Ăcia Judiciária (PJ) is based on the first preliminary results (arrived in September) of the laboratory of Birmingham. Conclusions that are in accordance with the forensic analyses previously efectuadas in Portugal,in the Instituto de Medecina Legal.
According to source of the PJ, tests do not exist of the other four children, that proove they also were sedated. Such was not analyzed in the tests collected in the house of PDL. Given this, and crossing information with the inspectores who interrogated McCanns and friends, the investigators had arrived at a possible conclusion that the brothers of Maddie would be to sleep - as well as, hipoteticaly, the others children of the friends of the couple - when something succeeded the Madeleine McCann.
Before yesterday, the spokesman of the McCann, Clarence Mitchell, denied to the 24horas the presence of seven children in the apartment of the Ocean Club. Yesterday, he did not care to answer the phone.
This new version of the events contradicts the thesis defended by the group of friends concerning what really happened the fat
Ădic 3 of May and weakens the thesis of the McCann, who believe that their daughter would have been abducted. The investigators believe that the child could have been victim of an eventual domestic accident."
Sorry I had to split in various posts.
Regarding all the children being in the McCanns' apartment, Martina made a good point.
How come nobody saw these parents take their children back to their respective apartment?
Or was it Obrien who took the kids back before 10pm when Kate found Madeleine missing?
And nobody saw him?
K.
Perhaps they had acess to the appartments by inside and when they were checking they came from outside?
This is getting really bizarre. Seven kids together, unsupervised? And sedated? Sound like a horror movie.
This artcle in Diario de Noticias is also interesting, namely because it is stated that the appartment was sealed from 4th May to the first week of June and that after the dogs sniffed death it was not rented anymore.
http://dn.sapo.pt/2007/10/10/
soc...rante_5_ho.html
Sorry, that should have read "Sounds like a horror movie".
We have so often heard and read about how events unfolded around 10pm on that night. If taking the children back to their appartments would have been part of what happened I'm sure we would have read about it by now.
Never was it mentioned anywhere that the children were present when police arrived either.
If they were taken back before 10pm the same person who stated that all parents were only visitng the McCann app should have seen this too.
I think it's another false assumption - either by the media or by the PJ.
Or a red herring as someone here suggested earlier.
Well, papers yesterday did say that there is possibility they were all together. Well, I don't believe they were.
http://tinyurl.com/266xa9
The McCanns deny that their children were ever sedated and are threatening a law suit.
K.
How do we know that the parents took the children back to their apartments once the alarm was raised? The PJ did not arrive for some time after. I assume that the Paynes were not involved in putting their children into the McCanns apartment as they had a listening device and didn't leave the tables to 'check'. I feel that the letters being sent to those who attended the Ocean Club during that week in April/May is a process of elimination. A process to uncover the real perp. I wonder if they will all cooperate and does it include all the Tapas 9 as well? I still think there is some holding back (naturally) from both police forces.
Hi everyone
My question is this
Are the family who were using a baby monitor to listen in to their children included in this? It sounds somewhat unbelievable
The article in Correio da Manha is very interesting but very long. If you are interested please transalate with Altavista.
http://www.correiodamanha.pt/not...idCanal=181&
p=0
All this speculation about the children being in one room and NOT A WORD from the Tapa friends.
It would be so easy to deny. Why aren't they talking?
Telegraph is now saying
"The police investigation into Madeleine McCann
’s disappearance is refocusing on the theory that she was abducted from her bed by a paedophile."
http://tinyurl.com/2ezqgl
From the same article:
It emerged that Portuguese police have launched the country
’s biggest ever anti-paedophile operation, raiding 75 properties where child pornography has been downloaded.
The operation, codenamed Predator, will analyse 150 computers seized from 80 suspects.
While the raids are not being officially linked to the Madeleine inquiry, they indicate the focus of the investigation has shifted away accusations that her parents, Kate and Gerry, may have harmed the four-year-old and back to a search for a potential abductor.
Karina, good question. Maybe the McCann legal team is asking them not to?
Yes, I believe it is a process of elimination and a way to get the Tapas 7 to cooperate without have to make them suspects if they are asking for everyone to provide DNA plus clothes. Regarding clothes, how would others in the complex remember what clothes they were wearing (I wouldn't expect if I were one of Tapas). Also Nan the Tapas grandmother did go see what was going on, then she had to go back to the bar to get her purse and camera. Now the camera, (hope she took pictures of supper) hopefully proves what everyone was wearing, or maybe someone at another table might have some footage or picture.
Ohhh don't you just love it when the media back pedal. Ahh the poor wee Telegraph. One day it's sedation, not looking good for the parents, the threat of a law suit follows and the next is an article on a putative claim that the PJ are looking for a paedophile. Ludicrous.
That is an excellent point Dee regarding Mrs Payne's mother. She did have a camera and you wouldn't bring one unless you took photos. Would they be time stamped?
Time Stamped - very interesting!
Regarding the raid, I would guess this was the accumulation of several months work. It also can show the PJ was keeping an open mind and looking at all avenues.
Re Dee "I would guess this was the accumulation of several months work."
14 months according to the Correio da Manhă.
http://www.correiomanha.pt/notic...1155&
idCanal=10
Takes care of that then, but congrats to the PJ and I hope they nail them. Thanks Jose
Maybe the swing is relevant after all.
If they were swinging would they not want all the children in the same house so they would not be disturbed by them????
And it would be a reason to sedate them too.
I made a mistake in my last post. I misread the dates: the 14 months were refeering to a similar operation oin July 2005.
The swing would also be a secret binding them together and a secret they would want to keep out of the press.
Dee, where did you get the info that they want clothes? I did not read hat anywhere, only DNA and fingerprints.
Clothes??? For what? To look for ... clues? (Oh dear!)
I hope you are wrong, Dee.
Grannie's camera, good point. But I guess the PJ must have long taken those photos?
If Granny made pics, and if they had a date stamp, and if the PJ saw them, then maybe they KNOW that one or more of them are lying about their presence/absence and that's why they are so convinced that something is being covered up.
Things that have always puzzled me are:
Why did they lie to family and friends saying the windows and shutters had been broken and forced??
Why all the support to the McCanns comes from GM family and not from Kate?
Why did not her mother rush to be with KM in PDL or when they returned to UK?
It seems her mother in an interview in british TV answered when asked if the McCanns were well something like "I suppose so" or "i believe they are" which implies she did not see them.???
I think that is strange.
There are rumors the PJ has a call between KM and her mother saying "It was an accident mom... if you go on i will hang up the phone...."
Would this explain her mother's attitude???
So many questions, so few answers
I believe it must have been from a portg. paper someone on another board translated (perhaps wrong). I checked through a lot of various eng. papers & I can't find any mention of clothes, so I (very embarrassedly) will retract the word clothes!
Marilia:
I also heard that there was tension between their families. To be honest her mum and dad always came across as dignified and genuinely concerned. Whilst his family were self publicising, aggressive and critical.
Where did you hear this rumour about the phone call?
Dee I saw it too but i think it was in an english newspaper
I will try to find it
here it is
the turists were asked about details on clothing
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2625572.ece
I heard the rumor in another forum, annorak
I agree her parents come across dignified and concerned. Nothing to do with GM's sister and brother etc.
Actually I did find some references to tourist & clothing, but not that they are asked to turn in the clothes they wore that night.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2625572.ece
"The tourists are also being asked about the use of their mobile phones and for details of their movements and clothing the evening that Madeleine disappeared." A couple other papers quoted this stating from the Times.
Maybe I am just getting confused.
Hi All,
Steve's really done us proud with this new set up, many thanks Steve. I've always found this a very pleasant forum to discuss this difficult case on and I missed it when it was being updated.
Catching up on all the comments, I'm gobsmacked by the Leics. Police official letter (I noticed there were no ref.no.s on it and other details I would normally expect to see -these things being omitted is unusual in an official Police letter, I know because I deal with them quite a bit in my work) how did it find it's way onto here? But I am pleased (if it's genuine) that they are taking DNA samples of all those present (very belatedly IMO!)they should have doen this from the start even if for elimination purposes only.
I liked the point about the camera and what pictures the 'close friends' may have that may be useful to the enquiry, once again surprised if these haven't been requested already.
The questions we have never had answers to remain as they are... we still don't know. To quote G. Dubya 'We don't even know what we don't know' I won't elaborate into the known unknowns as i think you get my point.
I still think that there's a cold offensive against the T7 (9 minus G & K)to pressure them into splitting and talking.
Who knows where this is going next?
Lizbee
"It seems her mother in an interview in british TV answered when asked if the McCanns were well something like "I suppose so" or "i believe they are" which implies she did not see them.???"
I don't think it neccessarily implies that. English people talk like that especially in public.
What do the English here think?
Interesting discussion. But where did the rumour concerning the mobile phone call come from (the K said to her mother it was an accident?)
Martina,
British people (especailly the upper working & middle classes) can be quite literal and high thinking when describing emotional issues. Therefore if (as we know) Ks Mother had not seen or spoken to her VERY recently but also knew her daughter was facing highly emotional swings (as one would in such a scenario)she would truthfully be able to answer the question with a Yes or No. There's nothing strange in her answer for me given what we know of the family. It would be stranger if that member of the family usually gave detailed analogies of feelings but did not in this instance.
My opinion only as usual.
Lizbee
I missed the word 'not'out:
should read:
...she would not truthfully be able to answer the question with a Yes or No.
Sorry,
Lizbee
Thanks for the new link M
Dee - it is getting confusing!
1) Kate and Gerry McCann affirm never to have given sedative to the Madeleine and to its two twins brothers, Sean and Amelie, opposing declarations made in September for Brian Healy, grandfather of Maddie, that admitted public that the grandsons took Colpol Night (an anti-inflammatory one for children, that induces sleep)...
(...)
2) In an emitted official notice this Wednesday, the McCann couple devaluates the last notice on the case, classifying them as "speculation" and attacking the Portuguese press. In the document sent to the media, Kate and Gerry inform that its lawyers will go "to monitorize" the covering given in England to these notice and that "they will not hesitate in acting in the competent instances if necessary".
(...)
3)In an emitted official notice this Wednesday, the McCann couple devaluates the last notice on the case, classifying them as "speculation" and attacking the Portuguese press. In the document sent to the media, Kate and Gerry inform that its lawyers will go "to monitorize" the covering given in England to these notice and that "they will not hesitate in acting in the competent instances if necessary".
The parents of Maddie so say "to be despropositadas as offensive" the notice - propagated this Wednesday for the 24Horas and the Post office of the Morning - that they give account of that the results of toxicology made by the Laboratory of Birmingham disclose that Madeleine McCann would have ingested drugs to sleep in the night of its disappearance, the 3 of May.
www.sol.pt
Where is "Controller" Mitchel?
It was not him that evaluate all comments and speak loud and clear for the couple Me and Mrs McCann?
http://tinyurl.com/29s7el
I was reading the results of this computer animated video which retraces the time line and it says that someone was leaving the Tapa table every 5 minutes.
It says 7 persons went out 14 times in a period of 2 hrs.
I can't remember where I read it, but it seems to me that one witness had said that only one person (Obrien) was gone from the table.
Do the results of this video study make sense to anyone?
Karina
Do they make sense, Karina, again good question.
We heard first that the waiters said noone left the table.
From an earlier timeline it was widely assumed that Gerry, Jane, Russel and Matthew only left the table, 4 not 7 of the 9.
And that earlier timeline also did not look as if people were leaving every 5 minutes.
I don't know what exactly this criminal psychologist who did the 3D animation took into account, but it sure doesn't make much sense to me.
http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecas...s-kate-
may.html
Saturday, 8 September 2007
MADELEINE'S GRANDFATHER ADMITS KATE “MAY HAVE USED CALPOL”
Brian Healy, the father of Kate McCann, admitted she “may have used Calpol” to help Madeleine to sleep, but said it was “just outrageous to think of anything else." Gerry and Kate strongly denied, on August 16, using any kind of drugs on their children to stop them waking up at night. Calpol is a common painkiller that is used, in UK, to to calm them down or help children to sleep.
I looked up Calpol although it is a painkiller it has sedative properties. So once again a spin to me there is not much if any difference? The question should have been (in the famous ear-pulling, bad body language video we all hotly discussed), do you ever give your kids something to put them to sleep without them being sick or in pain or something to that effect?
timesonline says
Paulo Rebelo, one of Portugal
’s most senior detectives, said that “all lines of inquiry remained open” even though police were concentrating on the involvement of Madeleine’s parents.
in an official announcement.
But then also
They are certain that Madeleine died in the apartment but the question they cannot answer is who took the body and where it went.
in the same article
http://tinyurl.com/2w88cj
I have really enjoyed being on this thread in particular for some of the more zany inputs. I had just about got my head round alien abduction, I was trying hard to understand astrology without the outer planets and even raised an eyebrow to a body being pickled in wine for 25 days. But cmon you guys SWINGERS!?!?!? As a man I found it remarkable that K had found 1 member of my gender prepared to put his body in harms way, but 4 and all at the same table! It could not happen.
Please could we get back to reality does one use a claret or a burgundy for pickling or does it depend on whether Mars is aligned with the moon and the Venusians are not abducting in Portugal.
In spite of all these new articles, we are back to square one.
1. possible accidental death
2. trying to cover it up with the help of the Tapas7
3. no idea what happened to Madeleine's body.
I am still sticking to the abduction story but with some reservations.
Stanley - perhaps the swingers were all pickled at the time.
Martina (+) I think the article on the 3d projection quotes the sources for the timeline - which was from several sources including the one published in the Times. The waiters contradicted this of course. I don't see what computer graphics adds personally - unless we can expect an Xbox or PS3 game based on the event (Tapas Raider 9?).
I think we have reached a little gently circling backwater in this whole affair. The recent stories have been far from convincing. And the only thing that can be construed from PJ activity are:
1) the new guy wanted to visit the scene to see for himself (fair enough)
2) they are trying to create a watertight case by eliminating all the other Brits (which has probably become worthwhile now that the McCanns have an awesome legal team which will exploit any loop hole.
3) that they are publicising recent activity on pedophile detection to show they are not complacent about this issue - but there is no direct connection with Madeleine.
Also there is no sign of the McCanns actively trying to look for M or help the PJ.
Stanley you are so funny, good thing you don't get around more to other sites (you wouldn't get off the floor laughing)! This is the only relatively sane site; that tries hard to back everything up as rule. If you find or found a more sane one, I would be very interested? Sometimes when I do laugh at the crazy places Maddy is, was, moved, different countries, etc. and I feel guilty. I remember my cousin who is a paramedic and he's told me some of the terrible jokes they make when they have to scoop with spoons a family of the road after an accident; so they stay sane. We all hoping for her return, justice and the truth regardless what they is. But I agree it is getting so out there that; maybe they actually are innocent, which is looking simplier than a great number of the other guesses.
Karina - abduction? ok what are the positive indicators for abduction apart from the McCanns own belief? Are you writing off the cadaver dogs? Most reports seem to indicate a level of certainty that M died in the apartment. So if the parents are not implicated then could it not have been a burglar or other intruder? If this was the case why did they take her body?
http://tinyurl.com/2w88cj
And yet another deceptive title "...police return to kidnap story"
I don't know how they get these titles!!
John,
I did forget about the cadaver dogs.
Ok, they are not reliable and why would they smell only Kate ? Don't you think that if the body had been transported, Gerry is the one who would have carried Madeleine? Yet, the dog did not sniff him.
And the body in the car 25 days later??? Nobody has come up with a good scenario for keeping this body in the Portuguese heat.
Until I can figure out a plausible scenario for the accidental death and disposal of the body, I'll say someone else took her.
John, good post. Want to bet Clarence will try & dominate/confuse the press tomorrow about the big bust? Also your comment, "there is no sign of the McCanns actively trying to look for M or help the PJ", is my biggest cause of suspicion of their innocence! What they say and do has never made sense. What happened to the lie detector test (a paper had mentioned they would/could set it up) and they volunteered to take about 3 weeks ago (although they didn't say they would do it in conjunction with the paper), when public opinion was changing? It's the inconsistencies that we are seeing, that has turned the tide in my opinion.
Karina, say John was carrying her in a blanket, sheet or towel, he wouldn't necessarily have the scent on him, and what if the blanket, sheet or towel was what the dogs smell in the car, would that make sense to you?
Karina - its possible that all the stuff about the DNA is misleading - especially that in the car - and it is taking so long to do the 2nd tests (due this Friday I think). What exactly are they doing in that lab?
But the McCanns themselves have said that Kate was shown videos of the dogs 'going crazy' near the car and on her clothing + cuddlecat. Obviously this is not enough on its own - but if you add all the 'little things' don't you get a big thing - i.e. abduction is so massively contra-indicated that what would make anyone prefer that theory?
If it was a definite abduction wouldn't there be bits of evidence pointing that way? I don't see any - not that we know about.
I hope that all that money that was donated IN GOOD FAITH by the public (originally to help find M) is seized and held in trust until this case has been solved. I'd hate to think the McCanns are dipping into it in order to fund their defence.
I have to agree with Dee on the polygraph test.
I would have volunteered to take one a long time ago. In the US, it's pretty standard procedure to take the polygraph test in order to be eliminated from further investigation.
I wonder if they took one in the privacy of their attorney's office. If they don't pass the test, the results are not publicized.
Dee !!!! hey I've got an alibi ...
"Karina, say John was carrying her in a blanket, sheet or towel"
you will be hearing from my lawyers Messrs. Sue, Grabbit & Run.
John, I'll get my checkbook, but I won't pay for campaign managers or overtime, you got it!
Karina,
PJ never told that they close any theorie. PJ said always that all lines of investigation still opened.
But in face of the results (i think they might have) they said the priority line of investigation is the dead of Madeleine.
Abduction continues to be a valid line of investigation. But like us at work sometimes we have to go from a task to another, after redefiniton of priorities. The redefinition of priorities can be made by yourself, by your boss, by something that happened, and so on.
I think it was very easy to kidnnap Madeleine and run away with her to Spain. Or in to a boat.
You see, in Portugal a missing person, even a child, is not a crime until 48 hours (this will change I think).
Because of that, the police start investigate if the missing person doesnt appears until 48 hours later.
After 48 hours of the missing, even the search started before by police (PSP, GNR it depends of the local), PJ starts investigate 48 hours later.
If they cant get proves that help to find the missing person, the case still opened but PJ take out the means affects to the investigation.
John,
I just feel in my heart that I have to give the Mccanns the benefit of the doubt until another explanation makes sense to me.
Why people despise them to such extent is not something I can understand.
Jeannette
Dee et al,
Please see link to Occram's razor this is the mathematical hypothesis that 'the simplest idea is usually correct',or 'return to your first instincts' http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/bae...eral/
occam.html
My personal first instincts and simple ideas were that the T9 were lying, that there is something amiss.
What do others think?
Lizbee
I have resisted answering back uptil now but "yawn"stanley.
Marilia: that is shocking. If she told her mother that it was an accident then her mother should have told her to come clean. I know my mum would.
Calpol: you know what, why not admit it in the beginning? Why lie? They could always have said well the kids had a bit of sunburn and so we gave them a small dose to lower their temperature...
Good point about the camera, hopefully the police have got copies of the photos.
The video simulation is based on the timeline provided by the tapas 9. It basically proves that if they are telling the truth, then its unlikely that there was an abduction. And if they weren't telling the truth and the checks were less frequent, then we shouldn't believe anything they said! imho.
Carlos,
48hrs is an eternity when a child is missing.
I hope they change your laws. The Amber alert system we have now in the States has been very helpful.
Swingers - I dont believe they are. But if they are, they are. It is their personal lives.
I think is normal that friends make hollidays together even with children. Of course the children become the priority, like i think is normal.
Suspects? - I think they are. Too much "missunderstandings"
Guiltys? - No. At this moment.
Abduction or accidental dead? - I dont know. I know is that the missing of the girl, the difficulty to find a body "alive or dead"... is equal for the two lines of investigation. The transport of the body, the difficulties i think they are similar.
That hours, in a zone of vacantions, full of people... and nobody, nobody saw nothing??????
Not the Tapas 7 or 9, but other people in holidays, hot days, people walking on the streets, people on the beach at that hours... Its not real the situation, i think.
But is very, very real 
unfortunnaly
I think it could be very significant that Rebelo - who had been in charge of the Casa Pia investigation - has been assigned to the Madeleine case.
Since finding out about Ms. Cipriano and the possibility that she made a false confession under duress, I have wondered whether the whole Algarve PJ could be a rotten kettle of fish.
I think we now (especially the Portuguese amongst us) have to ask ourselves: Has the PJ been infiltrated by child abusers/ponography makers?
Has a shortage of "available" children (since the Casa Pia revelations) meant that other children have had to be siezed? Could there be a connection to the missing Spanish boy on the Canary Islands? Were certain PJ officers channelling the blame onto the McCanns in order to divert attention from the possibility of an "abduction to order" implicating a wealthy local child abuser - someone known to the Casa Pia investigators? I do hope Rebelo has some good life insurance.
Oh my God, AndyT, are you SERIOUS?
As for that story that the mccanns will sue, i think that is highly unlikely. Just sabre rattling to try to get the portuguese press to shut up.
Their whole strategy is to avoid court. If they sue then it will definately go to court. If the portuguese police never find madeleines body then this may be the worlds only opportunity to find out what actually happened, under oath! Bring it on! I say to the Mccanns.
lizbee, i agree.
Does anybody know if DNA testing can identify ethnic group? I was wondering about the follow up with Brit tourists in PDL - why only Brits?
AndyT - I'm not being snoffy but take an occam's razor to your theory.
I know Karina...
48 hours in a small country, with open borders, with the see around...
Yes I agree with you.
But i know that a kidnnaper usually is someone that, in face of the danger to be catch, can kill.
I dont know if the Amber alert is better to save lives or to catch the guilty one. The priority is to save lives. Only after some period of results can be studed.
But i think that, for a child, i think, between 12 and 14 years old, the 48 hours could be half, but could be 0 hours for a age inferior to 12 years old.
But this is my opinion. I dont made the laws (i think a lot of laws could be made better).
Andy T, you are making a salad with all theories.
Rebelo is a trustfull agent, i think.
I think that because his team in Lisbon is not a team of "good boys and "incompetents players" or with afraid, because they put an embassador, a doctor, the most important and loved pivot of portuguese television (and the leader of Portugal Interests in Euro 2004), the director of Casa Pia, all them in a court of law.
He is not afraid of anything, I think.
I think in a lot of things they dont have "political experience" or "emotional inteligence" to lead with some stuff, but without courage to do the right thing, i dont believe.
AndyT,
We've all been back together again no time whatsoever and you're bang at the spaced out theories again... Does it have to be something really wierd to retain your interest? I still believe that this is far simpler than we can imagine, something happened, an accident perhaps, people panicked as there were no squeaky clean members there (after all they all knew children/infants were being left alone)and lies were fabricated to cover up their omissions as good citizens and parents. What K & Gs part in this is the next question once you've made headway into those initial lies.
Carlos, maybe my salad has too many cherry tomatoes in it, but the other salad - the one with seven sedated kids all sleeping in the one room, being visited at intervals by depraved male tapas looking for sex, with one child vomiting and another dying - really doesn't taste so good either!! There's just too much lettuce.
Right On Lizbee!
Just want to add although I do not know anything about the PJ, it is conceivable that the Spin Team are doing background checks. I bet no matter which country we discuss and "a seasoned police officer", someone, somewhere has accused that officer of something at some time in their history of service.
Swinging I personally refuse to discuss; I won't bore anyone with my reasonings, except to say it is a non issue.
Lizbee, of course you maybe right.
The PJ said that Ms Cipriano killed her daughter because the latter discovered her having sex with her brother.
This sounds to me like a text for a Brazilian soap opera. Have you ever seen one of those? They really are pretty ridiculous.
Actually, I'm outraged by the Maddie case: the irresponsibility shown by parents, police, media etc. !!!
The Cipriano case seems to be more about police irresponsibility.
Whatever the case, each time the perps get to go free.
John follow-up on your question "I was wondering about the follow up with Brit tourists in PDL - why only Brits?" I and I believe others suggested in so many words it could be a way to get the Tapas to produce, in an innocent way without causing the trauma of suspicion? Putting it another way if they ask everyone and they refuse...that will speak volumes, won't it though!
BTW did you get the check yet, Karina's delivering it for all the homework we do for her.
www.sol.pt
Speaking to the journalists in the Directory of Faro, after a meeting with the district director, Guilhermino Encarnaçăo, and new the responsible one of the Department of Investigaçăo Criminal (DIC) of Portimăo, Pablo Rebelo, the national director of the PJ was disclosed hopeful where the laboratory's results arrive soon.
"Still we are not in the ownership of all the results. We wait to have them proximamente, but they are factors that we do not control in the PJ", affirmed, in reference to the examinations that they are to be made in a laboratory of Birmingham,UK. Answering to a question on the alleged possibility of guilt of the parents, he affirmed that "all the inquiry lines continue and will continue in open until the conclusion of the inquiry".
"Any conclusion that if it takes off would be speculation and us in the PJ we do not want to feed the speculation", said. Recognizing that the inquiry "is not easy", Alípio Ribeiro it reaffirmed that the Policy that is director is pledged "in making it with serenity".
With career in the combat to the drug in the Directory of Lisbon, occupied the functions of associate national director. New the responsible one for the DIC of Portimăo of the PJ made career in the Central board of Directors of Inquiry to the Traffic of drugs(DCITE) and was to the front line of the Directory of Lisbon during the inquiry of pedofilia that resulted in the process now in coourt of law.
---
Everything is opened.
I didnet read any trustfull newspaper saying about all childs sleping together.
Only a tabloide with experience in bombastic news when the notice inside has a different mean of the big letters. A tabloide that sale newspapers always with scandals in the front page.
The couple’s official spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: “Contrary to renewed speculation in the Portuguese press, Gerry and Kate McCann wish to make it categorically clear that they have never, ever used sedatives on their children."
If they took a lie detector test on that statement for instance they could pass. Capol is defined as a painkiller, but has sedative properties. So in theory it is a truthful statement, so was Gerry's the twins "don't think Maddy is on a little trip", although they originally told them "she's gone on a little trip." It is the twist on words that could get them a pass on a lie detector, can't see why they don't do it?
I've grown cold on this case, but I'm glad to see that Occam's razor is still a tool of our trade. Ferret out the truth about Madeleine no matter who threatens suit.
Here is the latest entry dated 10/10/07 on the McCanns' website. It's short, so I'll post it:
After a few days of ridiculous newspaper coverage in the UK and Portugal it was heartening to hear of the statement this evening from Mr Ripeiro, the National Director of the Judicial Police in Portugal. He has again emphasised that all lines of the investigation, not only Madeleine
’s death, are open and that much of what has been written is pure speculation and in some cases misinformation. Scientific reports that we drugged our children clearly fall in to the latter category.
In the coming days and weeks we hope that only factual material is reported, allowing everyone to focus on finding Madeleine and who took her."
John -
Take Occam's Razor to the Casa Pia investigation itself. It wasn't simple, it wasn't obvious, it wasn't very likely... but it most definitely was true.
As wacky and wild and far-out as Andy's theories sound now, how crazy did the Casa Pia accusations - against the head of the Socialist Party in Portugal, the Portuguese ambassador to South Africa, a television personality, a lawyer, a doctor, and the director of the homes - sound in 2002?
Occam's Razor is a great tool, no doubt about it. But it's not foolproof, and it's in no way 100% applicable to all situations. Sometimes, every now and then, wild and crazy and far-out things do happen to normal, everyday, ordinary people.
Thank you DC; if you weren't here I would probably leave this discussion.
One thing I have learned in life is that ONE theory (in this case Occam's Razor) is never enough to explain or reveal the complexities of life.
No AndyT you are wrong. There is always at the root of every complex case a simple beginning. To muddy waters bring in complexities in the hope that the simple will be overlooked. Breaking news this morning is quite shocking (as if we wern't shocked before) - it's either at the heart of this case or simply another ploy to muddy the waters.
omg it gets worse: Gerry is not Madeleine's real father':
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pag..........ge_id=1811
Brazilian soap indeed. But life is stranger than fiction oftentimes
qualifier: the daily mail article is a month old but this is what is being said on portuguese tv and in 24 horas today.
How true it is... who knows. As carlos said 24 horas is not a respected paper but this is definately sue-able if not true so you'd think 24 horas would be careful.
More twists and turns... no wonder so many of us are gripped!
24Horas Today
Gerry is not the Maddie's Father
The PJ already knows that Gerry McCann is not the father of Madeleine, reports the 24horas within sources to the PJ and the (Portuguese) national forensic medicine.
For the investigators, it was very relevant to determine the paternity of the child that was created by artificial insemination. These diligences were done in England, according to our sources.
It was necessary to know if the biological father was involved in the Maddie's disappearance. After investigation in the sperm bank used by the McCanns, the English authorities found the biological father and concluded that he had nothing to do with the disappearance of Madeleine.
The fact that Gerry is not the Madeleine's father is very important. "It explains why the DNA markers of Madeleine are very different from those of her twin siblings"ť, said a source within the police.
In other words, the Maddie's genetic pattern is different from those of Gerry and her siblings, and there is no doubt in the DNA samples analyzed by the laboratory of Birmingham. There is no possibility that this pattern could be confounded with those of her twin siblings.
The tests were used to obtain a genetic profile and the person was determined by "crossing the samples with the genetic data of the twin siblings"ť explained a source from the institute of forensic medicine.
The Analyses done by the British laboratory, a month ago, bring some doubt about the paternity of Maddie. Those doubts were dissipated. The fact that Gerry McCann is not the father of the child is also important to understand his relationship with Kate.
This is a thoroughly modern crime case; IVF, DNA, heat-seeking helicopters, sperm donors, the Findmadeleine internet site, paypal donations, and of course us, cybersleuthing...Who needs CSI ?
Maggie, as far as I can see (GOOGLE), this morning's breaking news is that Rebelo (of the Casa Pia case and now in charge of the Maddie case) has detained 80 suspected Portuguese pedophiles, in connection with current inquiries.
DC and everyone - yes I know Occams Razor is not a theory as such but a kind of working praxis - but I was suggesting that to get to the heart of this case we need to a) identify the known facts (which we established before are very few) and b) build on the fewest number of possible facts to make a coherent description of events. If you are going to introduce a whole new scenario eg. pedophile ring involving police /cover up and so on - then it would be helpful to point to why this is the best theory rather than just introduce it from left field.
Actually we could dump Occam and go for 'blue sky' thinking - develop all possible (including crazy ) theories and then eliminate them one by one and see what we are left with. If nothing else this would help keep Stanley amused.
I value AndyT's comments - but it doesn't mean I agree with them.
The fact (if it is one) that Gerry is not the biological father is not that surprising since we know they used IVF - a sperm donor is obviously a possibility. I'm not sure that this should have been made public as if M is alive then its a piece of sensitive personal/private info.
AndyT - A paedophile(s) may well be involved but what does this say about the DNA found in the tyre well of the boot? Or many other aspects of the case that are important. It could be a diversion tactic while the PJ get on with solving the case.
John, given the latest 'news' regarding the paternity of Madeleine - this is a missing person possibly murder case and well really anything goes - it's only a matter of time anyway before it all comes out in the wash. The latest blog from Gerry already suggests the parents are thinking Madeleine is dead.
Right ... after some thought ...
IF - Gerry is not M's father then she must have unique DNA in that family
IF - the DNA in the car is anything like 80% (or possibly less) of a fit for M then it must be hers because her parents and sibs have different DNA (cannot be explained by nappies and so on)
IF - the type of body fluids found indicate a corpse then either her body or things which have been in contact with her were in that car
in which case all the PJ are doing is developing the scenario - the sedatives in the hair isn't really crucial but just supportive of the idea of an 'accident'.
The ONLY other alternative is AndyT's - that a pedophile ring with links to the police have her or her body and have planted the evidence that went to FSS in Brimingham. Otherwise how could anyone have her DNA to plant?
Three big IFs I suppose.
Jose: The fact that Gerry is not the father does not necessarily mean Maddie and the twins have a different genetic profile. Very often, people revert to the same sperm donor in case of IVF. So in that case the genetic profile would be quite similar (and the traces in the car could then indeed come from the twins).
Occam's razor: what is the simplest theory? IMO, Maddie wandered off when she woke up alone in the appartment and somebody took her. Why would the McCanns have stayed on so long in Portugal and taken the initiative to ask for more tests from the UK? The PJ are also clearly reverting back to this possibility.
Andy T
.......i think your spot on with peadophiles infiltrating the pj, if you research the child abuse in portugal it is RIPE...i even emailed the mccanns the day after maddy went missing and told them to get british help,do not trust the pj!
Sahron - I think it is being suggested that he is the biological father of the twins but not of M.
John - that would of course not be impossible but has this been discussed anywhere? So far, I've only seen suggestions that he is not the biological father of M. How likely is it to be able to father twins through artificial insemination after having had to resort to a donor for your first child? Perhaps not impossible, with science processing and new AI techniques, but it would be interesting to have more evidence on this. The theory of a paedophile ring with links to the police seems a bit far fetched to me. Remember the Dutroux case in Belgium? The was huge speculation at the time that a paedophile ring with contacts to the Belgian government and the royal palace was involved, but it just turned out to be Marc Dutroux and 1 or 2 of his friends.
Sharon this is a quote from Jose's posting of the 24 Horas article:
"The fact that Gerry is not the Madeleine's father is very important. "It explains why the DNA markers of Madeleine are very different from those of her twin siblings"?, said a source within the police.
In other words, the Maddie's genetic pattern is different from those of Gerry and her siblings, and there is no doubt in the DNA samples analyzed by the laboratory of Birmingham. There is no possibility that this pattern could be confounded with those of her twin siblings."
This is why it is thought to be significant.
Does anyone have a link to the article about the paternity?
pinkdrummergirl, i tried to link to your article but it didnt work
Clarence M seems to be strangely silent.
Gerry claims to be the natural father:
http://tinyurl.com/2vx8og
Re ali
Try the following link to the article 'Gerry is not Madeleine's real father' published the 12th september.
http://tinyurl.com/ywc93o
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1811
try this one...but maybe this has gone the way of the maid story, the 7 kids in one room story etc etc
sorry didnt see jose had posted...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top...89520-19931974/
Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for Mr McCann and his wife Kate, said: "Due to further unwarranted, unsubstantiated and totally inaccurate speculation in the Portuguese press today Gerry and Kate McCann and their lawyers have authorised me to issue the following statement.
"For the record, Gerry is the biological father of his daughter Madeleine. A newspaper report in the 24 Horas newspaper suggesting otherwise is nothing short of lies.
http://www.paternitytestinglabs....adeleines-case/
This is a very interesting article:
First DNA test results on Madeleine’s case (May 24th)
In addition, Madeleine’s genetic profile was ‘assembled’ from her parents’ profiles instead of having taken DNA from her belongings, such as toothbrush or hair.
very interesting site dee, thanks.
It also says: "One of the drawbacks of the otherwise powerful and seemingly infallible DNA profiling resides in its extreme sensitivity. A person
’s DNA sample can very easily be contaminated with another person’s DNA at the contact of a finger. So far, forensic science allows police to obtain a DNA profile from a sample as long as it is not mixed with other person’s DNA, and it is not degraded (DNA breaks down as time passes). Because of these limitations, many cases usually go to a dead end."
But FSS are working on a new computer system to overcome this.
I did think it laughable when the Mccanns were saying her DNA could have come from the twins things but maybe that was in fact possible.
However there has been an editorial declaration in 24horas standing by their story that Gerry is not the father (biological) and that the hair in the boot did have a follicle which could only have come from a corpse.
on the same site it also says that traces of madeleine were found in another car: "In addition, the dogs also found traces of blood in the trunk of another car, allegedly belonging to McCann’s acquaintances."
Forgive me if you all know this, I was travelling in central america in july and august and missed out on this bit of info...
In the same site:
http://tinyurl.com/32baqt
26th of August Findings in Madeleine's case stir controversy.
New findings in Madeleine's case bring unexpected results, this time complicating the McCanns position. A team of police sniffer dogs found suspicious traces of odour in the keys of a rental car that had been used by the McCanns a few weeks after Madeleine vanished.
British news sources commented that Portuguese police thinks this evidence may indicate that the girl's body was relocated using this car. In addition, the dogs also found traces of blood in the trunk of another car, allegedly belonging to McCann's acquaintances. These developments feed newer hypotheses suggesting that the McCanns are somewhat involved in Madeleine feared death. The immediate question these developments raise is whether the new evidence would be subject to DNA testing to confirm that a body was indeed carried in these cars and if so, establish the identity.
I have never seen in any newspaper that traces of blood was found in the car of a McCann's friend. Did you read somewhere?
Andy said
"Since finding out about Ms. Cipriano and the possibility that she made a false confession under duress, I have wondered whether the whole Algarve PJ could be a rotten kettle of fish.
I think we now (especially the Portuguese amongst us) have to ask ourselves: Has the PJ been infiltrated by child abusers/ponography makers?
Has a shortage of "available" children (since the Casa Pia revelations) meant that other children have had to be siezed? Could there be a connection to the missing Spanish boy on the Canary Islands? Were certain PJ officers channelling the blame onto the McCanns in order to divert attention from the possibility of an "abduction to order" implicating a wealthy local child abuser - someone known to the Casa Pia investigators? I do hope Rebelo has some good life insurance."
I was thinking along the same lines. And I was also thinking that Rebelo, if he lives up to his name, might be in danger if he starts digging deeper ...
Someone's translation of the 24 Horas editorial defense:
DECLARATION
I want to declare here: the news making the headlines in today’s cover is really relevant. The fact that it has been proven — according to sources this newspaper has in the PJ and in the Instituto de Medicina Legal [national forenscis intitute] — that Gerry is not Maddie’s biological father explains a big part of the problems that this investigation has been facing, namely that, by doing DNA testing, it found contradictory results. While this fact was not cleared, given the testimonies and the other evidence gathered so far, the police could not, in any way, ever find out what really happened.
I also want to declare here that we considered the possibility that who gave us is this information might in any way be instrumentalizing 24horas to defend its own interests. After we made that consideration, we came to the conclusion that the the main issue — the veracity of the news — was not in any way put in doubt, not least because our journalists checked it with two different, unrelated sources. These are things that we do every day. But today, given the sensitivity of the issue, I want to declare that, as usual (and as we are the only newspaper that does it sistematically and not only when that can avoid us a legal suit), if we find out we were fooled by someone or that we made a mistake, we’ll be here to correct it in the headlines.
Pedro Tadeu
Concerning the McCanns friens the Correia da Manha reports this:
McCann Couple
Friend's couple would be examined
The Judicial Police has prepared letters of rogatory and they can be sent to England at any moment - via Eurojust or by the General Procurator of the Republic. The aim is to interrogate the friends that were with the McCann couple in Praia da Luz and apprehend objects, such as the diary that Kate is keeping in her house
The couple should be examined after the PJ has received the final results from the laboratory of Birmingham, and everything indicates it could be tomorrow - and also in function of the friend's answers.
Re John
Do you have the link to the genuine text of Pedro Tadeu?
I firmly believe due to research and articles i have read that there are "unappropriate" people working in the PJ and acting as higher levels of authority. I believe in time it will come to light that the church, PJ and some higher authorities will have had some involvement in child abuse/disappearance etc. Just my belief but from day one I have stated that this is highly likely.
So a group of paedophiles decide to abduct a child from someone in the Ocean Club. those holidaying in the club are likely to earn in excess of six figure salaries. They would be highly paid, highly motivated people. The exposure of abducting a child from a family of this kind would be too risky and lead to exposure. Paedophiles arn't stupid. This theory doesn't wash with me.
As PDG remarked earlier, the McCann's should sue. Then it would all come out in court.
Gerry not the father ... ??
I feel like in a badly constructed who-dunnit TV show. Too many twists, too many false leads, too many fashionable ingredients, too many innocent creeps, too many unknowns in the equation ... I feel I will fall asleep if there is another Breaking Rumour.
But I have a quite good feeling re Rebelo. Starting to hope he might lead the case somewhere more tangible after all.
Jose (FR) this is the best I can find - its not online but only in the printed paper:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=...?pic=rst0kk&
s=2
Jose: snap!
Yes I haven't seen it anywhere else either(blood in other car belonging to mccann aquaintance)but thought that was because I wasn't following the case so intently in july/aug.
Has this site made a mistake?
Maggie wrote (11.29am): "So a group of paedophiles decide to abduct a child from someone in the Ocean Club. those holidaying in the club are likely to earn in excess of six figure salaries. They would be highly paid, highly motivated people. The exposure of abducting a child from a family of this kind would be too risky and lead to exposure. Paedophiles arn't stupid. This theory doesn't wash with me. "
I have to agree with Maggie. Why would a paedophile ring stage such an elaborate abduction? There was simply too much risk at being caught. Makes more sense to snatch a child off a crowded beach or playground or other high traffic area.
You know how easy it is to find out if Gerry is Madeleine's father?
Ask Kate's doctor. He/She would have supervised the fertilization, and he/she would most definitely know if Gerry or another man had given the sperm.
Personally? I think it's absolutely ridiculous for any newspaper, tabloid or not, to not only make the claims but to refuse to back down from them when the people being claimed against tell them to.
Methinks 24Horas should find themselves a new "source close to the investigation"... because the one they have now is turning into a moron.
I haven't read about that either PDG. I started following early Sept. I think, possibly late August.
DC Not sure I would trust Kate or Gerry on that one, only science.
Off topic I know but since i signed up to the diggit thingy i've recieved loads of junk mail. Anyone else?
DC, and
Mistakes have been known to occur in in-vitro labs. Only DNA will be able to determine once and for all who the biological parents are.
Thanks Pinkdrummer girl and jose for the links
Billie -
Mistakes have been known to occur in DNA and forensics labs, too. That fact doesn't seem to dissuade the people who claim that we should put 100% faith in allegedly leaked results of tests that aren't even finished yet, does it?
So who do you put your faith in? If the McCanns and their IVF techs/doctors say that he *is* her father and the DNA labs say that he isn't... who do you believe? Because no matter which one you choose, it means that the other one screwed up.
I don't think it's at all reality that he's not her father. Mainly because they've been testing her DNA, and his, and Kate's, and the twins', since July... and if he weren't her father, we'd have known about it long before now.
Or at least we'd have seen it somewhere other than WS and the Mirror forums before now, because it's been floating around on both of them since August. I've thought for a very long time that these reporters were getting their "headlines" by trolling the forums, and to my mind, this story is just more proof that that's exactly what they're doing.
DC,
If I had to choose, I would absolutely put my faith in the DNA results over the words of the McCanns and/or their doctors simply because I cannot believe anything team McCann says anymore.
But in case I missed something, why is the fact that Gerry may or may not be M's real father even matter at this juncture? I don't understand the significance of it in relation to M's disappearance. I'm thinking it may all be just another tactic to diffuse focus on the real matter i.e. finding out what really happened to M. Or could it be a ruse to somehow garner sympathy for the McCanns?
To pinkdrummergirl,
I didn't sign up for the diggit thing but I have been getting tons of error messages - small pop up screens asking me if I wish to debug due to a runtime error - every time I log onto this new site. Very annoying!
Billie and everyone else:
I really need to know as soon as possible if you encounter a problem like that. Just click here and send me a message if you do. Has anyone else encountered a problem like the one Billie described? I have not, and haven't had anyone else notify me of such a problem.
The site is called "Digg" and it is a social bookmarking site that's incredibly popular and can drive tons of traffic to any website that makes it to Digg's main page. One huge problem I had with CrimeBlog.US and HuffCrimeBlog.com was the fact that if I was lucky enough to have an entry "Dugg", the sites would crash -- this made me very angry, because lots of traffic should be nothing but good for any weblog. Success with an entry bookmarked on Digg shouldn't be able to crash a site hosted by blogspot, though (and this one is, even though it has its own URL). That's why I integrated Digg buttons into entries. You can only use the Digg button if you register for that site -- I am in no way associated with it other than having my own account there. It takes less than 30 seconds to register.
Billie, you may want to see if your browser is out-of-date or if the problem happens in another browser. I'll check Internet Explorer to see if the problem occurs when I use it with that browser.
Thanks,
Steve
From Times today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2633827.ece
it says:
" On Tuesday a team of Portuguese detectives visited the ground-floor apartment where the McCanns stayed to take measurements for a detailed reconstruction of events. They were said to have been particularly interested in the small service area beneath the apartment."
So may be this 'service area' is part of the answer as to what was done with the body.
Thanks, Steve. I'll check the status of my browser -- my technical problems may well lie elsewhwere and not at all with your site.
Steve
No technical difficulties here. I use Firefox.
So, the McCanns have officially denied that:
1. they sedated the children
2. that Gerry is not the biological father
I can't find anything where they denied that more children were sleeping in the apartment on May 3rd. Has this been officially denied by the McCanns?
After today - Gerry is not the father and yesterday (?) six/seven kids sleeping in apartment - I think we are being conned. In future I am going to wait a day for the denial before I even think about the allegation.
I think someone predicted before that we were going to get a series of easily denied allegations. Is this a Clarence Mitchell tactic?
Next? - there is no service area?????
Re Karina I can't find anything where they denied that more children were sleeping in the apartment on May 3rd. Has this been officially denied by the McCanns?
Of course!
http://tinyurl.com/32j799
"It's utter rubbish," said Mr Mitchell.
"If you put seven children together, you're going to have a far harder time getting them to sleep than three."
I was also wondering what/where this service area is. I have often had vacations in mediterraenian countries and lived in typical holidays apartments, but never had a service area to call my own. Or is this only for the upper class club holidays? What's it supposed to be used for?
Jose,
Thanks for the link.
Regardless of what the service area is, it seems to me that it would have been searched when Madeleine disappeared.
Maggie said "So a group of paedophiles decide to abduct a child from someone in the Ocean Club. those holidaying in the club are likely to earn in excess of six figure salaries. They would be highly paid, highly motivated people. The exposure of abducting a child from a family of this kind would be too risky and lead to exposure. Paedophiles arn't stupid. This theory doesn't wash with me."
I hasten to add that the paedos in question had to have first checked that the McCanns were so bloody tight fisted that out of their "six figure salaries" they felt the baby sitting service was out of their league. Of course Madeleine was not abducted, who in their right mind (I've just realised that is a contradiction regarding a paedophile) would take a child from a complex that provided a child minding service when there would be many in the district that did not.
Some people on this thread say that team McCann will be following this (and other) threads if so c'mon Clarence earn your coin boy come and join us. Even the P.J. cannot stop exchanges of ideas on the internet. Of course I could be all wrong we maybe already have a "team" member on board, anyone want to own up?
It is possible that a member of the "babysitting" service knew that the mccanns constantly left their children alone and took madeleine - just a thought!!
Also if she wandered off - i do believe there was a report of her in a supermarket - is this true???
hard to decipher fact from fiction these days
Stanley great point..."would take a child from a complex that provided a child minding service when there would be many in the district that did not". I also might add and if not the parents would be awake at that hour, not asleep (very risky).
On a lighter note, would anyone be surprised if Zaza Gabors husband, Prince Von vat's his name appeared on Entertainment Tonight, claiming he was the Dad? Who knows who will pop out for 15 min. of fame?
Lynn I remember reading the staff didn't know these parents had kids.
Dee, 'Prince Von vat's his name' LOL ).....Heaven knows who the real father is (IF) this is true. By all 'accounts' the real father has been contacted and eliminated!
You know when the McCann's strenuously deny something methinks they doth protest too much...
And yes the staff did remark that they were surprised to hear that the Tapas 9 had children. But perhaps that was the night staff...
Maggie & Dee
Looking at Kate and knowing his reputation look no further the dad has got to be David Blunkett!
Just because Kate was artificially inseminated, does not mean that is how the pregnancy occurred. AIs fail regularly, and if Gerry was the problem in conceiving, she may well have had an affair to produce the child she so desperately desired.
But, in my opinion, Gerry is the father. If you put a pic of Gerry, Kate and Madeleine side by side, she is a near perfect mix of them both. The resemblance to both parents is striking.
i read that kate had problems conceiving because of endemetriosis.
the reason for the ivf is cos kate has endemetriosis.
hope im not repeat posting, but last one didnt show up.
Now I have to admit but didn't dare say this in the early stages of this case for fear of appearing as a total anti McCann but I have always had a problem with the likeness of Madeleine with her parents. I thought she bore a little resemblance to Kate but that Gerry was not the father. I always wondered if he was her father.
Endo means that conception is risky. Of all the fertility risks this is the highest. There are however grades for endometriosis. Perhaps Katies was slight - but it would have to mean not involving the fallopian tubes.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/v...e-main-
suspects
I hope this is true (but who knows):
"The final batch, which is considered key to the entire investigation, has been overdue for several weeks but the Daily Express has learned that the crucial results are now ready. The results will be passed on to the McCanns later the same day.
Police on the Algarve believe that the findings will provide them with enough evidence to bring charges against Kate and Gerry McCann."
Regardless, thank goodness the results will be passed on the McCanns... everyone deserves that right; guilty or innocent.
It will be interesting to watch the how each side spins those DNS results (normally considered facts) or can you actually use the word facts in this case? But that's where my mind wants to focus on.
another shocker: maddy dad identified and from Birmingham. 24horas.
Hi All, been working hard so just catching up with developments.
For my two'penorth I'd always beleived that M was the product of selective AI by K & G. I seem to remember that they went abroad for the private treatment because it would be quicker than NHS. BY selective AI I mean that they chose only v. healthy sperm & eggs but they did not choose sex etc.
Once they had M successfully they returned a year later for a second batch to be transplanted rsulting in the twins. I don't see anything unusual in any of this and even if G was not the sperm donor (which I doubt given physical conparitors) I really do fail to see how it matters unless of course he was not the bio father and very obviously alientated towards M which I see no evidence of.
This line of enquiry is for me a bit of a dead end i.e. you only answer the questions you really knew the answers to anyway plus they are not that crucial to the case.
another shocker: real dad has been tracked and is from birmingham. 24horas.
OK guys - I finally found you - you just thot you got rid of me by leaving me on the side of the road - thats called cruelty to sr. citizens - j/k
I still don't believe a word the mccanns say - nor do I believe a word the tapas 7 say - remember if one goes down they all go down - their careers and future are at stake - don't believe mccanns will sue - wouldn't they be deposed ???
I believe gerry is very controlling with kate - have you noticed how she kinda walks a step or two behind him - kinda reminds me of winkler holding her attys hand coming into court -
sorry bout double posting but i cant see if my comment has gone up despite refreshing page several times.
lol and welcome back pdx...
Hi Pinkdrummer,
Could you post the article from 24Horas?
Thanks
WB - You've managed to wrestle out of the Mirror Forum jungle, OMG it's so mad in there. Welcome to sanity and reasonable discussion once again.
Mwoa x Mwoa x on both cheeks,
Lizbee
Lizbee it is very relavent only from the DNA perspective on how the DNA was done; if it was based on a toothbrush, "no", if it was based on K & G's DNA "yes". The first DNA taken was from genetic profile was ‘assembled’ from her parents’ profiles instead of having taken DNA from her belongings, such as toothbrush or hair (link http://www.paternitytestinglabs....deleines-case/)
I can understand the first set being done this way, why would you trust a parent for instance to give you the "right toothbrush"? Hopefully they got all toothbrushes?
So the new test (from that same url in my previous post) "Experts at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham have spent more than two months analysing a huge amount of evidence collected by detectives."
I give 2 sh#ts who the father is; I want to see the evidence (blood, car, hair DNA evidence. Unfortunately in this case inconsistent statements will add up (in this case; regardless of spin.
Dee,
I absolutely agree re: DNA & evidence that goes without saying.
I was answering an overarching query re: parenting non-bio children which for me is a non starter.
You are absoluteley correct in focusing on the DNA attribitors and detailed analysis of where,when, etc, deposited.
its just the front page, karina, hope the link works
http://www.24horasnewspaper.com/...pa/
Pagina01.jpg
Here is the link for the biological father from Birmingham
The true father of Madeleine was identified in England by the British policy, by request of the Judiciary Policy, knew the 24horas next to responsible sources of the PJ. The sperm donor that allowed the conception of Madeleine was not interrogated because the authorities confirmed that he was in England the date of the disappearance of the child, 3 of May. According to our sources in the PJ, the biological father of Maddie had nothing to see with the disappearance of the child - as, by the way, the 24horas had notified yesterday. ....
The PJ knows that Gerry McCann is not the biological father of Maddie, as the 24horas notified yesterday and reconfirmed with some responsible sources of the Judiciary Policy and the National Institute of Medicina Legal (INML). "Gerry McCann was not the donor of sperm for Maddie. He was the donor for the twins. But it is possible that Gerry himself does not know that he is not the biological father. It could have happen a exchange in the laboratory ", said to the 24horas source of the INML.
Pinto da Costa, former president of the Institute of Medical jurisprudence of the O'Porto, supports the explanation, without referring to the Maddie case. "Already happenned some cases of artificial insemination where the husband was not donor one time and was donor other times. It is enough that, at that moment of the life, the person has its fertilizadora capacity diminished by reasons several, as exhaustion or stresse extreme ".
http://www.24horasnewspaper.com/...ews.php?
id=7789
Marilia and Pinkdrummer,
Thanks for the links.
How credible is the 24Horas?
I am not sure I understand the article. It says it's possible that Gerry does not know he is not the biological father but 24 Horas has identified the biological father as someone from Birmingham ???
Karina,
Yep, that's what they're saying. As far as how credible they are, I don't know... but if their cover isn't modeled on the old Enquirer covers, I don't know what is.
It says that the PJ knows GM is not the father and that GM may not know he is not. It could have happen a mistake.
A well known scientist says it can happen that the father is not donnor one time due to weak fertilization at thar moment because of stress. He is not commenting on M case but speaking in geberal.
The 24H is kind of a tabloid
Hey Lizbee, I was responding your last question of 8:23. However,my 3rd paragraph wasn't meant for you or anyone in particular just my opinion, probably more to keep "me" on track. I will try to be more careful, I am very sorry.
And now we have more breaking bombshell news...Marilia. I am going to bed, one good thing (in my time zone), when I hit the computer in the morning, you guys have the news digested for me. I appreciate that; I have lost 5 lbs. (LOL). If someone doesn't break soon...they have to be innocent(the pressure), bet Clarence wished he kept his gov.t job! Probably seemed easy in the beginning, who would have known?
I know that in some cases where a man has a low sperm count, the man's sperm is mixed with the donor's just raise the possibility that the baby could be his child (the man with low sperm count).
But even in such cases, it seems to me that the father would know that he probably is NOT the biological father.
Now, if it's true that GErry is not the biological father, doesn't that make all this DNA research invalid ?
Karina
no, on the contrary. Of what i have understood they had the DNA of maddie trough the parents and then they didnt have full matches. Now testing with M true DNA they verified her DNA is too much different from those os the twins and so GM is not the father. Too scinentific for me. That is what I uderstood. Maybe totally wrong lol. PDG explained it very well.
Got it, Marilia.
Well, at least I think I did
Karina, no, the DNA research is in fact completely valid: the fact that Gerry is not the biological father is something that the analysis of M's DNA compared with the DNA of Gerry revealed; there was obviously no genetic match. They had to rule out any chance of the DNA found in the rental car as belonging to the twins, as the McCanns had implied. And since now it appears that M's DNA is completely different from the twins' DNA, the case is much stronger for the police because now they can positively identify whose DNA it was that they discovered in the trunk (boot) of the rental car three weeeks after she disappeared. And I'm betting it was M's.
Thanks, Billie
I hope we get the DNA results tomorrow as they had announced.
I am logging off tonight.
I hope we get more information tomorrow.
First thing I do in the morning is log on to this website and check out the news or what passes as news
Good night or good morning, wherever you are!
G'night Karina. I'm heading off to bed myself. It's nearly midnight here (Canada).
Whew, what an amazing story. It's got me transfixed. Like you, I log on here every day to see what has developed. I can't seem to stay away even though I'm not sure I'm going to like the outcome. Still...a part of me just wants to see this resolved and the matter put to rest. Accident or not...things never should have come to this point and shouldn't have had to. And the whole "Gerry not being the biological Dad" bombshell is an unfortunate consquence of the fact that the investigators simply want to cover all bases and do a thorough job before bringing any charges. This whole sorry side story might never have come out if only those persons responsible for setting it all in motion had been truthful from the very beginning...
Dee, that link you gave us earlier tonight: http://www.paternitytestinglabs....deleines-case/)
which dealt with the DNA test results on M.
It worked earlier this evening, yet when I just checked it again to reread the article the link was invalid. Coincidence? Or possibly someone getting to it and pulling it?
Billie -
It's still there. Your link above got truncated and it's got a } at the end, which is invalidating it.
http://tinyurl.com/34yttw
It's just a blog, so I guess it's no more reliable than any of the other "sources" we've got floating around. Interesting to note, though, that right along with the DNA construction is "...the results may have been severely compromised because of sample mistreatment and contamination..."
And if that's true, it's never going to get us anywhere.
Thanks, Dee. My mistake.
And if the results were contaminated (heaven forbid), that's very sad indeed. I'm so hoping that this case can be solved and the parties responsible be punished.
The Diario de Noticias reports today that the resort has been visited Tuesday by six elements of the Crime Investigation Department of Portimăo, leaded by the chief inspector Tavares de Almeida. The following day- at the same moment Paulo Rebelo was assuming officially his functions as coordinator in the case inquiry- the team returned to the apartment, doing a new reconstruction of the night of the crime.
In this second visit, the PJ was interested in the path from the apartment to the Tapas restaurant and the other apartments rented by the McCann's friends present in Praia da Luz. Some inspectors were seen near the church of the Lady of Light, in front of a landscape square that was an old cemetery.
The Jornal de Noticias reports today that the (pedophilia) operation “Predator” has nothing to do with the Maddie case. The PJ denies vehemently the association done by the English press.
IF this story is true...
why is gerry father of twins but not of madeleine? Kate has an affair? lab mix up? Or this sperm mixing thing they do (which I imagine is to encourage competitive sperm)?
Did the Mccanns know? If not, god, they are really going through the wringer...if we are shocked, how must they feel?
Thinking along darker lines...if Gerry knew that he wasn't the father, wouldn't it make more sense for him to be the one that had the accident with madeleine(after all childen are most at risk from a step parent, not just a fairy tale but unfortunately a statistic).
pdg - that's a pretty big IF - and even if he isn't the biological father he isn't a step parent in the usual sense is he?
We are told the forensic evidence is back today and that the McCanns will get a copy - presumably because they are arguidos - so it will be interesting what stories come out in the press following this.
Going back to abduction theories - it is interesting that there hasn't been a single leak story (from what I can remember) which provides any fresh indicators for abduction. All the stories are countering internet or press rumours about McCann involvement. Some witnesses seem to give opinions that she was abducted and that the McCanns couldn't have doen anything - but no real reasons apart from subjective personality assessments.
This leaves the cuddlecat and Jane Tanner's mysterious man. For instance if it was a planned abduction then why carry her away wrapped in blanket? The car park is right next to the 'front' door - why not bundle her in a car and drive away top speed to Spanish border? And the cuddle cat thing is that supposed to be evidence?
So come on all ye who believe in abduction - why isn't there a stream of evidence/stories coming out ot support this scenario?
Well there was the dodgy British looking bloke standing on the stairs leading up to the balcony. But who in their right mind would pass such a bloke and not alert the concierge?
It's very hard to prove abduction in this case. I think there are several reasons behind it. First of all the testimony of the parents and their friends keep changing and while this is no indication of murder it does raise red flags and brings in a question over their innocence.
Lack of DNA of the perp. A trace is always left behind. A group of well educated doctors trampling all over the crime scene is puzzling behaviour. Given their backgrounds, the expectation would be that they would know how to handle this.
I did ask a couple of threads ago for someone to show proof of an abduction. However the replies were not convincing.
"We are told the forensic evidence is back today"
Acc to the article linked above by Dee, they will come on Monday
Police chief Alipio Ribeiro said ... "as it was revealed that the results of make-or-break forensic tests carried out in Britain will be presented on Monday".
Someone in another forum, tired by the speculation, opened a thread for 'factual information' of the case. Needless to say that the thread never got more than some 20 odd replies, half of them paste+copy from newspaper articles, and the other half OT.
But there is one entry which has some info I didn't know yet, although it seems to be from the mirro forum, so some of you might have seen it. I copy it here:
The McCanns’ friends
Rachel and Matthew Oldfield
Rachell Manpilly is 36 and she is married to Matthew Oldfield. The couple has a daughter, who was only 18 months old when Madeleine McCann disappeared. But now even so the Oldfields asked for the Ocean Club
’s babysitting service. Matthew met Gerry McCann when both doctors worked together at a hospital in Leicester. Matt has a pending accusation for medical negligence in that hospital, after a late diagnosis resulted in the death of a patient. This was not the first time the Oldfields spent their holidays with this group. The last trip had been to Greece – where they also stayed in a resort of the Ocean Club’s group – but that time Gerry and Kate did not accompany them.
Dianne Webster
63 year old Dianne Webster is the oldest element of the group. This credit controller is the mother of Fiona Payne and the grandmother of two of the children from the group that was spending their holidays in the Ocean Club.
To the portuguese police, Dianne told she could not precise which elements abandoned the Tapas restaurant during dinner, on the night that Madeleine disappeared. Fiona
’s mother is also the only witness that said each couple was responsible for their own children, and did not enter their friends’ apartments.
After Kate entered the restaurant – visibly upset and yelling “they’ve taken our Madeleine” – Dianne was the only one who stayed seated at the Tapas’ table. Which she only left five minutes later.
David and Fiona Payne
It was David Payne who organised the group
’s holidays at Praia da Luz. The reservation was made over the internet, after a good experience with the Ocean Club’s group, in Greece. This was the second time that David came to Portugal. The first time was eleven years ago, before he got married.
David and Fiona have been together for seven years and are both doctors, like the McCanns
’ friends. The couple has two children and they were the only ones in the group who used the babyphone system to keep watch over the children during dinners – which always took place without the small ones.
Fiona was back in the Algarve on July 11, along with Rachel and Russell, in order to give their third deposition to PJ.
Russell O’Brien and Jane Tanner
Russell O
’Brien is a doctor and lives in Exeter – the same english city where the sister of Robert Murat lives.
After studying at the same university as David Payne, O
’Brien met Jane, with whom he has two children. The friendship between Russell and Dav
Continues:
After studying at the same university as David Payne, O
’Brien met Jane, with whom he has two children. The friendship between Russell and David is so strong that he chose him as his wedding godfather when he made his relationship with Fiona official, in Italy.
Coincidentally, Jane and Kate became pregnant at the same time, as the O
’Brien couple’s oldest daughter is exactly the same age as Maddie.
Jane Tanner is one of the key witnesses in the â€Madeleine case’, given the fact she says she saw a suspicious man, walking with a child in his arms, on the night of the disappearance. Jane describes the individual with extreme precision, although she was not capable to recognize the child he was carrying. The man that Jane saw has dark, thick hair and is 1.70 m tall.
And about Gerry
Gerry McCann was the youngest of five children of Irish immigrants. His father was a joiner; his mother worked in a biscuit factory. He went on to study medicine at the University of Glasgow, became Scotland
’s under19 1,500 metres running champion and briefly dabbled in sports medicine. It was through contacts that he made working with Scotland’s under21 football team that Cristiano Ronaldo and John Terry were persuaded to issue appeals for Madeleine.
24horas on tv: comment copied from mirror forum:
"The 24 Horas reporter who is behind the news reports about Gerry not being Maddie's father, was interviewed on TVI today. He said his sources are very credible and he heard the same story from four different people: one from the British police, another from the PJ and two from the Instituto de Medicina Legal. He said the police think the McCanns are behind Maddie's death, disposed of her body with the help of a third person, and that all their friends knew Maddie had been killed, lied and helped cover it up. When asked what the police needed to prove it, he said all the results from the FSS, which the PJ haven't got yet, but have knowledge of a few via phone."
The editor and the journalist are risking 2 years in jail and a huge payout, if they are wrong.
If they are right, I cannot express how shocked and disgusted I am, that their friends would all collude to cover up the death of a little girl. Has there ever been another case like this?
pdg - if all their friends indeed knew - then I shall give up on the human race! what arrogance that would be! but somehow I can't believe it right now.
Martina - facts about the Tapas 9 - have you noticed how little there is about Kate - its as if she has not personal history. Its the same on findmadeleine.com. Not reading anything into this - but it is odd. Gerry sounds quite driven with his sporting background etc.
Yet it seems so extreme a thing to say The Tapas 7 all covered this up - its more like a movie than real life - I just can't swallow that, yet with this case, nothing seems to be of surprise.
John, no, what I copied was headed "The McCann Friends", it was only about the 7. I added the paragraph about Gerry from another Source.
But still true, we don't know much about Kate, although she's always at the center of the story. Especially her family is not much heard of.
I don't know why, but the thought of all of them covering up the truth doesn't shock me as much as it does you both.
If it's true, I think there must be reason that's important for them ...
According to RTP this afternoon, the PJ didn’t receive the test results done by the laboratory in Birmingham concerning the vestiges found in the car rented by the McCanns.
The PJ isn’t convinced that the results should be enough to prove that the McCanns are involved in the supposed death of Maddie.
The inquiry team has been strengthened with 4 inspectors of the homicide squad.
The letters of rogatory would soon be sent to interrogate the McCann’s friends.
Martina - would you cover up - even for your best friend?
John, if my own children would otherwise be in danger of being taken away from me because some secret would come to light that would make me look very bad - maybe!
What Martina would do is not relevant to the case: she is not a McCann’s friend.
We know anything about the psychology of the McCann’s friends. I don't think that we can put ourselves into their shoes!
Nevertheless, I think that a theory that all the 7 friends are involved to cover the supposed death of Maddie is highly improbable.
I agree with Jose regarding the theory that all 7 friends are involved. I do believe that perhaps two are involved and that the others don't know or have strong suspicions. They are all professionals with a lot at stake if a fall were to happen. I would have thought also it would have been a case of every man for himself unless there was a strong link/bond between them that would prevent this. Remember, only 2 couples left their children alone in the apartment without any supervision performing their own 'baby listening service'. o'Brien/Tanner and the McCanns.
I am curious as to the motive of making up a kidnapping story.
Let's assume that Madeleine died of a bad reaction to sleeping medication.
What exactly would the McCanns risk?
prison? how long?
the twins taken away from them?
We've had cases here in the US where a child was left in a car and died because of the heat. Yet, the mother did not have to go to prison.
Also, why the worldwide search? They seeked more publicity than was needed. They're smart people, why didn't they keep a low profile, move back to the UK and hope that everybody would forget about the case.
Karina "Also why the worldwide search?" I think that was taken out their hands. On the night it happened Gerry phoned his brother and within 4 hours it was on Sky News! Then Gerry's sister wades in and before you know it we have a campaign, a charity, an appeal, millionaires throwing money around, and K&G cannot just crawl into a crevice and disappear.
I do feel that the members of the thread are all now reluctantly moving in the same inevitable direction. As several people have pointed out there is absolutely no evidence of an abduction. If there were you can be sure Clarance would have told us about it! I do not think that G not being M's biological father is a factor. If he had murdered M there is no way that his 7 pals would cover up. However if he & K over-sedated her or killed her in a freak accident then I am with that venerable philosopher pdx77, nobody covers for each others mistakes like the medical profession. There are literally thousands of people dying every year here in the U.K. in our hospitals of bugs brought on by poor hygiene standards, what other profession would get away with that? I am afraid in this country doctors are still regarded as a law unto themselves.
Jose - strictly I suppose you are right that what Martina would do is not relevant - but in assessing the probability of something we have to draw on our experience as human beings and I would say that (in agreement with you) that 7 people conspiring together without a single person weakening is most improbable.
Karina - it may be that the family and others launched the publcity campaign in a way which left Gerry and Kate with no option than to follow it. They couldn't really refuse without arousing questions - so keeping it low key was taken out of their hands.
I am trying to avoid subjective assessments but something is telling me that Gerry actually enjoys all the attention.
Karina,
Prison, the twins removed, never working with children again as well remember, lifestyle gone - I think that's a lot to loose. But you do have a point and it's a good one. I suppose once the train of publicity started it's proving difficult to get off. I also can't get the image of hole digging out of my mind.
I want to once speak up for the abduction theorie. There might not be any evidence, but the classic three points to look at when solving a crime are
1) motive
2) means
3) opportunity
Re 1) any paedophile in the area (and we know now for sure that there are many in Portugal) had a motive
Re 2 + 3) there is not much needed: watch the tourists for a couple of days, find out who leaves the kids unattended, maybe even get a tip from one of the waiters? Then park the car in front, go in, take Maddie, go out, and off you go. The door was open, the street badly lit, not much people around it said in one article. That's the means and the opportunity, pretty easy.
There is nothing particular in favour of abduction (only Kate's cuddly toy story, and Jane's mystery man), but there is also nothing strongly AGAINST it.
Martina, I think the fact that there is simply no evidence of an abduction makes the case for one pretty weak.
But it's a fact that an abduction is so much more easy than any other scenario so far discussed. And remember Occram's razor? Simple is more likely.
I agree with Martina. The abduction is the easiest solution to accept because no other plausible scenario has been offered.
But, to be truthful, I am having some serious reservations. Maybe I've been on this thread too long
Robert Murat has been on BBC news saying he wants to be cleared. He hasn't spoken to the police for months or seen his daughter and has no money left. His aunt spoke up for him and said he needs to rebuild his life.
Karina and Martina - what would evidence AGAINST abduction look like? How do you prove a negative?
"Paulo Rebelo, the man in charge of the hunt for missing Madeleine McCann is bringing in a crack team to solve the case. Paulo Rebelo recently took over the inquiry into Madeleine
’s disappearance and has appointed four senior officers to boost the invesitgation.
Each of the four senior officers bought in to boost the investigation are experts in their field and have been seconded from other areas of the police in the country.
Paulo Rebelo takes over the previous senior officer on the Madeleine case, Goncalo Amaral who was allegedly sacked after accusing the McCanns of manipulating the media.
The new members of the team include a chief inspector and an inspector brought in from the Lisbon headquarters of the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). Both are specialists in homicide and it is expected that they will concentrate on the theory that Madeleine was murdered.
The third member will focus on examining data and pursuing new lines of inquiry and the fourth is an inspector from Portugal’s serious crimes police section."
http://www.product-reviews.net/2...madeleine-case/
PS. Is abduction 'easy' because you find it hard to imagine the parents being involved?
http://www.product-reviews.net/2...madeleine-case/
Paulo Rebelo, the man in charge of the hunt for missing Madeleine McCann is bringing in a crack team to solve the case. Paulo Rebelo recently took over the inquiry into Madeleine
’s disappearance and has appointed four senior officers to boost the invesitgation.
Each of the four senior officers bought in to boost the investigation are experts in their field and have been seconded from other areas of the police in the country.
Paulo Rebelo takes over the previous senior officer on the Madeleine case, Goncalo Amaral who was allegedly sacked after accusing the McCanns of manipulating the media.
The new members of the team include a chief inspector and an inspector brought in from the Lisbon headquarters of the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). Both are specialists in homicide and it is expected that they will concentrate on the theory that Madeleine was murdered.
The third member will focus on examining data and pursuing new lines of inquiry and the fourth is an inspector from Portugal’s serious crimes police section.
Hmm,
Just catching up on speculation... to put my tuppence worth (and a bit more to allow for inflation and taxes!)into the discussion here.
As you know I have felt right from the start that there's something very odd about this story, not only in events not fitting together and the timeline being impossible; but also the way they all have behaved. There's a secret, something which ties them together, bonds their silence. I have no idea what this could be and we can all speculate but we won't know until one of them talks.
But I'm a very intuitive person and I know when there's a cover up and there is one here. That's not to say I think G & K killed M, she could still have wandered off or been abducted. But they (and I mean all of them) are not telling the true story of what actually happened that night of that I am 100% sure.
To solve this case we first have to unravel fact from fiction on the evening of 3rd May 07 in PDL MW resort.
Whatever this secret is it's big enough, in their minds at least, to threaten livlihoods, status and the future for those involved. Which is I think why some commenters have suggested bizarre things like swinging and much worse (nuff said on that score).
I have also always felt that the initial impetus for full media coverage came from Gs UK family, I remember John McCann's face being everywhere in the first week or so, but I also agree that Gerry loves it all. In fact egocentric behaviour seems a bit of a family failing for the McCann's with even the unbecoming Auntie Phil enjoying far more than her fair share of 15 minutes of fame. Perhaps with poverty being generationally closer they have more of an appetite and fight for furthering themselves.
Kate's family are far more subdued in this respect and seem like an ordinary stable upper working/lower middle class family with high aspirations and a comfortable outlook on life. I can imagine that there has been some conflict between the families as they are not alike in outlook and morality.
Gerry is definitely a highly focused control freak with limited emotional range which is why although he courts media attention he is actually far less able than he believes himself to be at handling it appropriately, which is why he comes across the way he does. I've no doubt that these qualities are excellent for his chosen career but not good for PR. Does all this mean he can hide things better, absolutely it does' but what exactly is he and the rest of them hiding?
"Is abduction 'easy' because you find it hard to imagine the parents being involved?"
YES, John.
Lizbee - good post, great questions, good observations - what is your intuition on what they are hiding?
Karina - why do you fiind it hard to imagine they are involved?
Abduction is NOT the easy solution to this problem. Far from it. Abduction by an organised paedophile ring (and they would have to be if sitting in an expensive location waiting for an opportunity) is a complex, sinister and multilayered scenario that if uncovered impacts upon the community/country with horrendous consequences. As for the opportune abduction - simply not plausible as the family were only there for a week. Think about it. If the staff were surprised that the couple had children then so would a paedophile/abductor.
Why are those close to the missing child being avasive? Red flag behaviour that cannot be ignored.
Liz, very interesting observations. I agree that Gerry is a narcissistic personality (and to a certain extent Kate).
I guess I might be one of the ones who has given the impression they think abduction is unlikely.
The reasons are these.
There is the apparent absence of any DNA or other trace of an abductor. There appear to be no verifiable sightings (I think Martina puts it well "only Kate's cuddly toy story, and Jane's mystery man" neither of which appear to be stood up by anyone else). There is also the fact that the other children a) were not targetted by the putative abductor and b) slept through.
(The apparent sleeping through everything of the twins interests me a lot. Perhaps another post...)
There is also the fact that the opportunity, if the Tapas group/McCanns accounts are to be accepted, would have been limited to really quite small windows of time when someone from the group was not in the vicinity checking up on some child or another.
One of the problems I think the McCanns have is that if their checking up stories are true, it actually makes their abduction story less likely. Possibly grimly ironic.
I would say that abduction from the aprtment is less likely all other things considered than Madeleine just wandering off and coming to harm in some other location (perhaps by some third party or perhaps alone) which more eaily fits the circumstances Martina thinks make abduction possible. Poor old Occam, he's very busy here.
The big problem with both the abduction and the 'wandering off' hypotheses is the question of whether Madeleine was dead in the apartment.
You may be bored hearing me say this, but I think if the police do have evidence (which we have yet to see authenticated) that Madeleine is dead and that she was dead in or around the apartment, a) it is clear that neither abduction nor 'wandering off' really account for that and b) it is very (getting more) difficult to see how the parent/s would not be implicated in some way.
Sorry to go back but I too am catching up after a busy few days...
I'd like to comment on the question of a lie detector test.
Some people think the McCanns not taking a test is suspicious. I disagree. If I was the McCanns; and if (possibly especially if) I was innocent of any crime, I certainly would not be taking a lie detector test.
It has no legal status either in the UK or in Portugal (I understand). Therefore its not relevant.
Also the risks are all on one side. If the test is negative (detects no "lie") you are no further forward - it proves nothing except that you may be able to lie convincingly. If the test is positive (detects a "lie") then you are putting yourself in jeopardy unnecessarily.
I would think if the McCanns have lawyers of any value they will have been given this advice. The fact they appear to be follwoing this good advice means nothing for their guilt or innocence of charges which have yet to be even formed let alone pressed against them.
2 things off the top of my head:
1) Lack of background info about K. I noticed this in the above post, and also in this week's People magazine spread, which was focused on her. I expected far more shots of her growing up than were provided, more about her childhood, some friends, pictures of the Healy family...
To quote a previous poster/thread, "The silence is deafening". I think that if K really was such the gentle, kind, benevolent soul the McCs would like us to believe, that people would be coming out of the woodwork to attest to that fact - most of all her immediate family! Hmmm.
Just further lends credibility to the claim that K became violent after being named arguido. I have always sensed a temper on her - I interact with physicians of her ilk every day - and often wonder if that proported temper could have to do with what actually happened to M.
2) I, too, am unimpressed with the leak about G not being M's bio father. Not necessarily relevant - if true, and even if he knows, I do not feel that it would be motive for murder.
However, if they were swingers, or had some big secret like that (which was publicly unacceptable), that would be clear motive to keep M's death a secret.
If I were a betting person, I would say that there were more than just the McC children in the apartment (perhaps not the Payne children), they were all sedated and supposed to be sleeping, but something went horribly wrong with M (allergic reation, overdose, aspiration of vomit into lungs, or a physical accident from being drugged and trying to climb around an apartment (maybe to reach a cuddle cat?))... A story had to be concocted, and this whole case began picking up steam...
Just some thoughts. Sorry for being disjointed, but this is just a lot to get my mind around.
Emma that was a brilliant post. You have cleared up a couple of things for me regarding Kate. Mmmm that was a light bulb moment. Thank you.
@ John
Abduction looks easier when you think about the three points (motive, means, opportunity) as I laid out above.
When you think about accident or murder these three points become much much harder to imagine.
That is the only reason why I said it's easier.
No, you can't prove a negative, but clear evidence for murder or accident would be a proof against abduction. So far we have not seen that.
Hence I stay on the fence!
Emma
A very well thought out post. Amongst it you said "they were all sedated and supposed to be sleeping, but something went horribly wrong with M (allergic reaction, overdose, aspiration of vomit into lungs,)" Please do not overlook the fact that Dr O'Brians daughter also vomited that night, resulting in his total change of clothing.
I keep mentioning this as nobody else does. Here is a man, one of the tapas 7 who on his own admission (and it is about the only one made by any of them) was absent from the table for a considerable period of time (precise time still seems to be disputed) and returned with an entire change of clothing. During this period of time his partner (Jane Tanner) has seen a man carrying a child in pink pyjamas, whom nobody else in the whole of Portugal saw! It really does fit the time lines and crime scene better than pickling in red wine, alien abduction and paedophile waiters which have taken up much more space on this thread. As far as knowledge and involvement are concerned this reduces those directly involved from tapas 9 to tapas 4. The remaining 5 could be described as wise monkeys.
John,
My intuition on what they are hiding is equally split between two opposing theories, either:
a) Nobody checked on the children at all that night or on previous nights, there were far more incidences of 'neglect' than we know about (remember the story about the adult party being 15 miles from the complex without any of the children one night!). All the adult members were party to/involved in this type of inappropriate behaviour and all feel guilty by association. Once the 'lie' re: checking etc. had been agreed they're all sticking to it as to do otherwise may mean social services involvement, loss of status, etc. Note that this theory allows for abduction/wander.
b) There was a terrible accident, or tragic misfortune that cost Maddie her life. I remember when I was in Tunisia with my twins when they were 4 yrs old and they both got ear infections from the pool (they were never out of it blees 'em) it was horrendous because it made them really crabby and they were obviously in pain, I went to the doctor and he prescribed ear drops and a 'calpol-like' mild pain releiver. When I cashed in the prescription I was gobsmacked to receive vials of powder and it had to be explained to me that in hot countries medication was rarely made up, you mixed it yourself with distilled water. It had apallingly written 'English' instructions on the slip of paper and I was worried to death that I might mix this medication wrongly, as it happens (and I had read it 10 times anyway) all was okay. My point is that things are different when you're abroad and what they may have done in England e.g. dosing with Calpol without much thought may have had completely different outcomes in PDL.
There is also the possibility that Kate snapped and lashed out causing M to fall badly, perhaps down those steep steps to the appt., or that Madeleine had an accident on her own for which they (K & G but perhaps all of them by omission in challenging their friends actions) felt strongly that they would be blamed especially if this happened whilst they were out at the Tapas bar or elsewhere leaving the children alone. I don't for one minute think that this was premeditated or properly thought out.
Stanley,
We are all aware that O'Brien was dealing with a 'vomiting child' but can we prove whose vomiting child it was?
Martina - you sit on the fence. Does this mean you have no clear evidence of abduction? I don't myself go so far as to cry murder, but I lean towards accidental death. No incontrovertible evidence of course but people have been convicted on circumstantial evidence before...
Lizbee,
Kate was an anaethetist prior to being a general practitioner. I would have thought she of all people would know about sedation.
@ Maggie: I'm not sure my post was "brilliant", but I thank you for such kind words! I just cannot shake this case from my consciousness, and like the eloquent Lizbee, my intuition tells me that K & G have not been telling the truth from the very beginning. I feel that if I think about it hard enough, I may figure it out! Call me naive!
@ Stanley: I agree with you 100% wholeheartedly My post was terribly disjointed, so I am glad to see that some sense was made from it! Yes, I did not carry my theory any further, but to continue my personal speculation, I would say that he is definitely the key Tapas player. I was never convinced that his child was actually ill - it just beggars belief that any parent, let alone BOTH, would possibly be OK with leaving a vomiting child, period. Let alone a mere toddler. So, I would bet the vomitus was M's, and that he likely did use that window of time to translocate M's body (the beach, the service area in the basement), and thus needed the change of clothes (probably disposed of his own during that time, as to not leave scent behind).
Also, as physicians, even in a foreign country, it would not be hard to ascertain where a nearby hospital disposed of medical waste (ie body parts). Not saying that M was taken there necessarily, but incriminating items could be disposed of forever.
It's been said before, but I'll repeat it again: What happens among doctors, stays among doctors. Trust me.
It's almost as if Jane reported the man carrying the child just in case that O'B was spotted taking her away. The description is basically of him, from what I understand. But I do not think that this was done without K & G's blessing, however. I think this was part of the concocted plan that went awry.
How could they have possibly foreseen the upcoming media frenzy on the night of May 3? I think if they had predicted the extent of the media attention, that they would have been much more deliberate and careful from the beginning (ex. not blogging, not raising the alarm when and how they did, etc). I also think that very oversight is what will cause this case to unravel ultimately - there are enough little discrepancies...
Agreed, Lizbee, but perhaps that knowledge gave her a false sense of safety or security about anaesthetics. Physicians and scientists can become very blase when prescribing and using potentially very harmful drugs and chemicals, even when they know better, sometimes they take risks, calculated risks. And sometimes those risks come with a very high cost.
Emma,
I understand totally the pact between doctors. I trust you...
Clarence has just been on BBC News. The McCanns deny giving any of their children sedatives and Gerry is Madeleines father. The only thing he omitted to mention is when the libel suit against these "unfounded allegations" would commence. Surely out of four lawyers one of them has experience in this field?
By the way hasn't Clarence aged 10 years in a month!
Maggie, of course there is no clear evidence of abduction, nor is there for accident or murder, as far as we know.
So what else CAN one do but sit on the fence? I don't like to conclude because I feel either way I will be on shaky ground. We can only speculate and have done so many times here.
Yes, I can imagine an accident. Maybe like lizbee said Kate snapped and Maddie fell down the stairs and hurt her head. Maybe she lost consciousness for a while and Kate called one of her friends for a second opinion whether this might be serious. Maybe they all concluded it is not and she doesn't need to go to a hospital. But head trauma can lead to death hours later, even if there isn't a visible wound on the head. So Maddie dies later, so now the friend has the same need to cover up his mistake as Kate has.
I can well imagine that. But is there evidence for it? No.
And what keeps nagging me with all the death scenarios is the never satisfyingly answered question, what happened to the body?
We keep discussing possible ways of how she might have died and who might have been involved. Let's discuss these other important questions if we are to believe Madeleine died that night: who took the body away, where did he/she hide it, and why hasn't it been found yet?
These questions are not easy to answer. I can only think of beach and ocean, but the beach has been searched as far as I know and the ocean - well where to get a boat so quickly?
I can imagine several accident scenarios, but how the body was disposed of is a more tricky one.
Any bright ideas anybody? Stanley maybe? Always so in favour of the accident and cover up theorie. If you think Russel was involved, what did he do between 9 and 10, where did he put the body?
Because without that question being answered all the accident theories don't hold.
Martina the sea is a short walk from the complex. There is also the possibility that no-one seems to know the answer to, that a hire car was available amongst the tapas 9. We never seem to have had this confirmed or denied.
Hi just catching up all good posts, the only theory in mind as well, is accidental death as you all have eloquently mentioned possible theories.
Martina the body could have been disposed of very easily in my opinion in the road work ditches. The trenches were about three feet deep and already dug it would be very easy with you hands to loosen the soil on the side and cover the body. You wouldn't need a shovel or anything. If you look at the map the area starts very close to the hotel and goes down to the ocean & church. It could be a coincidence the dogs followed a trail down to the church and ocean. Gerry's angry reaction "find the body and prove it," you have to remember the road is now all filled in. I have the maps if anyone is interested.
Jane T. could be telling the truth & she could have scene someone, perhaps didn't actually recognize the person. Could perhaps have been ROB. It wouldn't have taken long and could explain why he changed his clothes. Mentioned before a blanket (perhaps used in their stroller or brought from home for the beach) could have been brought back as it would have been identifying and was in the car for disposal. The blanket could have also been stored in the storage area before making it to the boot of the car. All speculation on my part for theory purposes.
It has occurred to me if she was near the church perhaps that is one reason why Kate went to church everyday, yet when see went home to UK she went once a week?
Well fence sitting is ok - but I haven't read anything which goes against the PJ's working theory. The more I think about it the more McSceptic I become.
I agree with practically everyone that they are hiding something. Their behaviour and demeanour are not straightforward. Gerry particularly seems to be playing some game or spinning some line. To do that when your own daughters life is at stake is extraordinary.
Its all about K&G defending themselves. Where is the effort to find Madeleine? If I was them I would be frantically pushing the abduction idea - appealing for fresh evidence - its long since they have been saying how they cannot speak because of the secrecy laws. I would say stuff the secrecy laws - find my daughter! I'll do anything! Not spending other peoples money on lawyers and spin doctors.
Phew! got that off my chest. I have no time for them - but that as usual does not mean they are guilty.
At the rear of PDL is an expanse of scrubland with some sandy parts. Sand is a conserver of a body. It contains a high salt content that helps mumification. A mumified body (I do so hate to write about this) is very lightweight and will also shrink in size. When buried in sand, with off shore winds, the body fluids quickly dissipate and dessication is expedited.
To give you an example - ever seen a dead animal on a beach? To determine time of death if the corpse is fresh is not difficult but after a couple of day's it hard to know how long it's been there.
Dee said "Jane T. could be telling the truth & she could have scene someone, perhaps didn't actually recognize the person. Could perhaps have been ROB."
So Dee, Jane Tanner failed to recognise her partner and father of their children Russell O"Brian. As Emma said "it's almost as if Jane reported the man carrying the child just in case that O'B was spotted taking her away. The description is basically of him, from what I understand. But I do not think that this was done without K & G's blessing, however. I think this was part of the concocted plan that went awry."
If my theory is correct this is indeed an excellent part of the cover up. If RO'B disposed of the body and had been seen by a member of staff or another holiday maker carrying M whose testimony that this "man" was definitely not Russell would be more convincing than that from his long time partner Ms Tanner?
John,
I agree and that's why my posts rattle on about the details and timeline of the 4 hrs in question on the night. (I'm assuming here that the PJ have verifiable records that place M in creche from 1.30 - 6.00 pm. So I'm taking my 4 hrs from 6.00 - 10.00 pm.)
Personally I gave up trying to figure out the J.T. story, once I ruled out the abduction theory. I agree Emma's theory is certainly a strong possibility. If you remember the sketch drawing she gave, the blank face; it could be possible she didn't recognize RO'B because of the position of the child and the blanket. But we also have G & the other guy not seeing what she saw. On the SOL site that had some animative movement on that (before the latest version by someone else), they had Jane past the McCann apt. and almost to the crossroad road. I questioned why would she be there if she was going to her apt? I don't understand the Jane T. sighting story, except she couldn't describe the face.
Stanley, our theories dovetail nicely together. I agree, that would be one of the more "excellent" or well-planned parts of this coverup.
I think Jane and RO'B have much more at stake in this whole ruse, for many reasons, and therefore would be less likely to crack under pressure.
But, I think it would be wise (although admittedly, my medical knowledge far exceeds that of my law) to keep the pressure on the other members of the Tapas group who may have tacitly offered their support to the McCanns on the night of May 3, but who may be aghast at the lengths that the McC & O'B parties have gone to keep up this elaborate charade.
I can't help but think (egotistically, narcissistically perhaps ) that we are getting closer and closer to the real truth. And, further, that Team McC does follow all the blogs/posts, and knows that they have not fooled us all.
Bottom line - which I often remind my children - is that IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO TELL THE TRUTH. Its a simple idea, and it has widespread application. Lies have a way of coming back to bite you...
Well, Martina,
You and I are just about the only 2 people left here who are "sitting on the fence".
I envy all the others who are so convinced that their judgment is right and that the McCanns are guilty. In my mind, things are not so black or white.
By the way, a paedophile does not necessarily mean a big operation. Many do their deeds on their own.
Oh, I just read another post where someone make a good point. In the www.findmadeleine.com website, Gerry writes that Mr Ripeiro
"... has again emphasised that all lines of the investigation, not only Madeleine
’s death, are open and that much of what has been written is pure speculation..."
Notice Madeleine's death"
hmmmmmmmmmm...
Karina,
I don't this is as simple as those who are 'sitting on the fence' and those who are not because it then begs the question 'sitting on the fence' about what aspect? That K & J (plus or minus help) were responsible/guilty of far more than merely leaving infants unattended, That the T9 did/did not give full & accurate (as far as they were able) accounts of their own and others movements that night.
The problem I keep returning to (and I know I must sound like a huge bore on this issue but I believe it's crucial before you can move futher down the road on this) is simply this:
If everyone is telling the truth about the checking and their movements then the windows for a possible abduction are so tiny as to make them unfeasible. Gerry himself knows this which is why he belatedly came up with the idea that the abductor must have been in the apartment when he checked just prior to bumping into Mr Wilkie (my theory is that Gerry had actually gone back for his wallet or some such thing and that's why he was so vague about whether or not M was actually there, the purpose of his going back was not to check on the children, I still maintain that checking was not done on that night or other nights in the manner the group has attested to).
So lets suspend belief for a few minutes and give the T9s testimonies a whirl. According to K & G everything was fine when thay left the children sleeping peacefully at around 8.35, they arrived at the Tapas bar at 8.40, in fact they had all arrived by 9.00 pm (remember that there would have been lots of movement past the appartment during this time period 8.35 - 9.00 pm making an abduction impossible in this time zone); I can't remember the exact time but G and Mr W bumped into each other ouside reception/start of the alleyway and chatted for 15 minutes around this time Jane T was also doing her own checking (crucially not seeing either of these men in a very confined area but seeing the 'man with child in blanket' which neither of the two afforementioned saw at all!); so we can deduct this time zone from the hour we have left to play with which leaves us with about 40 minutes here and there in the 9.00 pm - 10.00 pm slot, of course many of these minutes are covered by accounts of checking by Kate and R'OB. What you are left with is slithers of time here and there in which an abduction could take place and with all this apparent movement an abductor would have to have been very brave/foolhardy indeed and keep close tabs on the whole scene for the entire evening to be in with a chance of success. But there is nowhere around to keep such close scrutiny without being spotted. And no-one at all spotted anyone hanging around, acting in an unusual manner.
I truly want to believe that Ms parents are guilty of no more than a tragic lack of judgement on this occasion when their 'parental responsibilty' barriers were down because they were on holiday. But you ponder over those facts re: the 'opportuni
Lizbee
Ok, you're saying there is no opportunity for an abduction but in the same time frame, they would manage to transport Madeleine's dead body somewhere and nobody would have noticed anything ! I find that just as difficult to believe.
Well, if they were lying about their movements because they either comitted a crime or covered up an acident that would change the whole time line. You are quite right Karina they can't have it both ways. Either there was no time for an abduction and therefore no time either for a 'clean up/removal' of a body. Or.... wait for it.... someone is lying about the timeline.
Karina, I hate to say it, but at that point, on May 3, M's "dead body" would not have been all that unusual looking... probably looked asleep. Just sayin'.
God rest her little soul if what I believe in my heart of hearts is true, and that she was accidentally killed by her otherwise well-meaning parents.
This case literally pains me, as I have a daugher less than six months younger. And I see so much of K in myself...
The truth will set you free!!
Exactly Emma,
What I'm saying is that they are virtually the same act - abduction/removal of either a heavily sleeping child or a body.
Lizbe
It could be that the Tapa7 lied about the timeline because they did not check on the children as often as they should have. When they were first interviewed, they probably did not realize the impact that these lies would have in the future.
The crucial difference being that if there was a cover up and removal there are far more windows of opportunity than there are for an abduction.
I don't want for K & G to be complicit in this, I am not anti-McCann (as much as I find them a queer bunch of folk)I am trying to intelligently derive the truth from the information available.
Liz
Karina,
Now we are definately on common ground, this is why I keep returning to the timeline and the simple fact that the way the T9 tell it cannot be true if we are to believe they had no part in foul play.
They cannot have it both ways either thay are lying about their checking routine, and best to own up to that minor crime, or they are complicit in something far more serious.
Liz
Either way, I'm afraid that it leads you to the same initial conclusion that at the very least K & G are lying about their movements that night.
Good morning all (for it is morning in UK), the Daily Express today:
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/po...osts/view/
21908
is emphasising the newly invigorated PJ investigation:
and that;
"They spent almost an hour examining the church where the McCanns spent so much of their time in the weeks after Madeleine’s disappearance.
They paid particular attention to the area outside the chapel, which used to be a cemetery, leading to speculation that they are about to order fresh searches in the area."
So maybe this is a clue about what happened to the body .!?!
I just want to say, although I am a McSceptic and have never warmed to them from the very beginning - I am not certain that they are guilty. What I am looking for is evidence of abduction over and above cuddlecat and JT (seeing someone). Until there is some why should any of us deviate from the PJ position of a) most probable accidental death b) but all lines are still open.
This of course unless you believe that the PJ are corrupt and/or inept and so on.
The 24 horas, this morning:
PJ should wait for the Birmingham’s report
DNA proofs only for next week
The DNA waited tests that may indicate that Maddie was transported dead in the McCann’s car should arrive in Portugal for the beginning of the next week, relates de 24 horas within source from the judicial police.
The final report from the FSS of Birmingham will arrive through diplomatic channels. First it would be sent to the (Portuguese) Foreign office and next to the Ministry of Justice, explained a source with the PJ.
Only after bureaucratic drift, the report would finally arrive in the hands of the judicial. But the PJ has got some results by phone and knows that they confirm the implication of Kate and Gerry McCann in the disappearance of their daughter.
Yesterday, the 24horas was surprised that several British newspapers - Daily telegraph, The Sun, Daily Star and the Evening Standard - published the following inexistent statement of the justice publisher, Luis Fontes: "The story is absolutely true. Our sources are rock solid. If they think they can sue us, bring it on."
This affirmation is completely wrong, because it has never been done.
Regarding the abduction/removal of the body being similar in that time would be needed to do this and we all know that the window of opportunity is small given the constant checks, there is a difference. An abduction introduces another person into the scenario, and this person would have to have been hiding and waiting for the moment to strike. Removal of the body just means that the people already there are the perps and this makes it less easier to spot.
Yes, Maggie. It's also easier for the Tapas9 to hide the body for some time and dispose of it later. In another app, in a suitcase, etc. Then someone could have gone after 4am the following morning when it was still dark and buried it somewhere.
That last comment was from me. I hadn't inserted my name ...
But an abduction by an insider would be equally easy. As I outlined once before, Russel could have taken Maddie out to a waiting car some time between 9.30 and 10, selling her, for example. And only he and Jane were involved, so it's asier to imagine those two keeping it a secret easily.
Martina:
"Russel could have taken Maddie out to a waiting car some time between 9.30 and 10, selling her, for example."
'selling'? how do you mean?
John, child trafficking. Africa is close by where children are sold for slavery.
On Gran Canaria in the past 12 months two children dissappeared without a trace, a girl (teenager I believe, not sure) in 2006, and a boy, Yeremi Vargas, this year. He was snatched when he played on the road with his cousins, a very big risk for whoever took him, but the perp took him anyway.
Police on the island suspect child trafficking or a pedophile ring, but have never found any evidence nor were the children found.
I just can't help it, but children have been snatched from their front garden, with parents in the house, from bedrooms, with parents in the next room, even with siblings in the same room (Polly Klaas).
As long as there is no evidence for Madeleine's death I won't completely rule out abduction.
Maybe next week we will finally know more.
Hi all
I have been following threads on here with interest, but i recently came across a thread on 'Websleuths' that implies syringes were found in the apartment.....
Has anyone else come across this?
Is this were the whole sedation theory is coming from?
Polly Klass's abductor cased the house out for weeks - witnesses remember a stranger in the street. He would have known that there was no father in the house. Also this was a quiet suburb, not a lively resort. He was also seen so there was never any doubt that the child had been abducted. But you are right Martina, abductors do take risks, especially if they are desperate for the money and need to sell the child on. I remember reading on this forum months ago about a child taken in a shopping centre in Teneriffe. A lock down ensued and the child (a girl) was found in the toilets with her hair cut short and wearing boy's clothes. Scary stuff indeed.
macushla - there were reports in the Portuguese press in September or late August that a syringe was found on a stand(?) in the parents bedroom in the apartment. There is a suggestion that this may have been for liquid Calpol (a paracetamol product for children - which can cause drowsiness) administered by mouth rather than for injecting by needle. Gerry has denied using sedatives - but then Calpol is not a sedative as such.
martina - are you seriously suggesting that one of the McCanns friends sold M to traffickers? - I can buy a stranger doing this but not one of their doctor mates.
test
John, I'm suggesting it as a possibility. It would solve some "problems" we have with other scenarios, such as "where is the body?", and "why didn't anyone see a stranger lurking around?", and "why didn't M scream?" And Jane's mystery man whom nobody else saw would then only be a concocted story serving to divert attention.
Is it less likely in your eyes than all 7 of them covering up a death?
Maggie, yes that's a very scary story!
Martina : Well yes it is less likely in my view. The T9 might cover up because of missplaced loyalty or joint guilt of some kind - but to sell each others kids!! my god what kind of people would do that? I don't warm to them but they are not monsters.
Re Martina: As long as there is no evidence for Madeleine's death I won't completely rule out abduction.
I think it's a fact that Madeleine McCann is dead the 3rd of May, and someone has hidden her body.
It's also a fact that the abuduction theory is not consistent.
The death of Madeleine is a truth that hasn’t been proven yet by the material facts. And that's the job of the police to prove it with material evidences, etc. And I am not sure that the Police could prove it rapidly.
Well, how do you know they are not monsters?
Look, I don't believe in this scenario, but it's not impossible.
Actually I don't believe in any of the proposed scenarios, but when I think rationally about the situation several of them might be possible, including monstrous ones.
Police will also think like that. They can not solve a crime if they start with "We don't think that Mr. X is a monster, therefore we won't investigate him".
Martina ; I said its less likely not impossible. I don't think the police will think like this - I think they will treat everyone as a suspect until they are eliminated.
I am following this threat for quite a while, and I found some very well thought theories and interessting speculations. But there is one aspect I am missing and what doesnt get into my head: Lets say, M died by accident - how ever - someone of the T9 who found her, must have returned to the table, saying "Oh, K+G I found your daughter dead!" I cant believe that anyone of the remaining Tapas (including the parents) would keep calm and come up with a plan like the ones we are speculating on. I consider that it takes some time to get along with a situation like this. Plus, it would have been a decision between K+G and not between a group of friends at a restaurant table. When would they ve had the time to sort everything out?
Can anyone follow me?
Re Debbie
I think that scenario is impossible.
In my opinion, Maddie died before the dinner at the Tapas Restaurant.
The Maddie’s corpse should have been in the apartment for a couple of hours because it’s the time necessary for the dogs to detect the sent of death.
Kate gave the alert at 22h00.
If you suppose that the body wasn’t there at that moment, then the death of Maddie should have occured between 18h and 20h. The McCann were at the Restaurant 20h30.
Some people said that the body could have been placed in a suitcase somewhere in the flat. When the cops arrived they didn’t look in the apartment for Maddie. But I think that the person, who hid the body, couldn’t know this fact in advance. That’s why I think that the body has been moved between 20h and 22h.
Jose,
And Gerry was casually chatting with Jeremy Wilkins at 9:15pm as if there was nothing wrong ?
And how could Kate maintain her composure at the dinner table knowing that Madeleine was dead?
I go back and forth between various options but none are satisfactory. It's driving me crazy
Does anyone know if the Ocean Club has a similar system of police back ground checks on creche staff and those working with children.
Is it a british based company?
ok, yes they are a british based company....
but nowhere on their site do they state that they adhere to police background checks on staff who are responsible for looking after children.
it just states they hold professional qualifications...
"And Gerry was casually chatting with Jeremy Wilkins at 9:15pm as if there was nothing wrong ?
And how could Kate maintain her composure at the dinner table knowing that Madeleine was dead?"
These are two of the things I also wonder about. It just doesn't add up. It just seems to me that Kate and Gerry did not know that Madeleine was dead - IF she died that evening.
For this reason I came up with the Russel-did-it angle, because then the behaviour of G+K at the Tapas Bar would make much more sense.
You're right, Karina, no matter how you turn the whole story, something is always amiss and looking wrong. Very weird! But maybe it's like that because we don't have all the facts, and some of the 'facts' are none but just garbled reporting.
Hey, Debbie, welcome! GoLucky, right? 
macushla, you could email them.
When J Wilkins spoke to G McCann he didn't know that anything had taken place (i.e. disposal of a body). He barely knew Gerry and so wouldn't be aware of subtle changes of behaviour. Gerry might well have been delighted to see Jeremy Wilkins because it would give him a cast iron alibi.
Well, not so cast iron, it was only a 10 min chat.
And the time in question are 4 hours.
The friends at the Bar, the waitors, they all saw G+K between 8.30 and 10, but nobody noticed they were upset or had been crying. That is just odd.
But then again, stranger things have happened ... they are doctors after all, used to dealing with death, so might be able to pull themselves together for a while, switch into business mode or something.
True enough Martina, and they have been able to keep themselves totally together even with their daughter missing in the beginning and through all these long months; innocent or guilty is the wonder of it all .
Re Karina
You suppose that Gerry and Kate had a normal behavior and that they were unable to hide their emotions. Well, if it is so, then they simply didn’t know that Maddie was dead. That implies that Kate and Gerry never saw Maddie after she was put to sleep.
"You suppose that Gerry and Kate had a normal behavior and that they were unable to hide their emotions. Well, if it is so, then they simply didn
’t know that Maddie was dead. That implies that Kate and Gerry never saw Maddie after she was put to sleep."
Or that she really was abducted.
Ok, guys, I am leaving for the week-end.
Please have this case solved by Monday morning
K.
We'll do our best, Karina!
Have a nice WE!
Hi Martina and all,
I must admit I was a bit taken aback when I read your theory about RO'B 'selling' M; don't know why I should be when we've gone through just about every other monstrous theory on here from K & J killing M and preserving the body to taking it back to the UK in a suitcase!
I think it's highly likely that Karina will come back to hear that we're no further along.
One thing that did occur to me whilst I was reading through the posts was that I'd always wondered about G talking to JW for 'around 10 minutes or so', they didn't really know each other and G was leaving his friends and wife at the dinner table on what was meant to be their last night to idly chat to a virtual stranger for quite a bit of time standing in the street.
Was he creating an alibi or was this just typical Gerry behaviour? He doesn't strike me as the 'make friends with anyone sort, after all his closest friends are people he's gotten to know over time that he saw every day whilst working with them. Also I found it strange when I heard about the young woman who worked for MW resort that he'd insisted join them when she finished working. I'm sure she had thought it unusual at the time as they hadn't really talked before then but he was so insistent she agreed.
What does everyone else think?
I think he was just being polite to the woman.
And as for JW, maybe he was the one who kept talking, and again Gerry would have been too polite to simply cut it short.
Or ... Gerry kept talking to prevent JW to walk further down the path to the appartments where maybe Russel was just moving Maddie's body?
I think Russel might very well become another arguido, especially if they find out that she really is dead.
I was also thinking ... because we often say that G+K couldn't possibly be so collected and coldly planning how to dispose of the body etc. I thought, maybe it wasn't their idea. Maybe something happened, and they found Madeleine is in serious condition or dying. A fall, or a reaction to the meds or whatever. G+K freak out but being in another country, they turn to their doctor friends first for advice. So one of their friends, maybe Russel or Matt, rushes to help but can't, and she dies. So now he is the one advising them not to make this accident public, they don't know what will happen in this country, how the laws are, how the police will react etc. He advices them to let go of her, put her to rest, and say she's been abducted. He even offers to do that for them. He really thinks it's for the best for everybody. What good would it be to get involved with the portugese police and all? That won't bring her back, it will only lead to more problems. So they agree. They didn't expect it would lead to this mega-media-event, Potugal is not the US, is it? So, they take some valium themselves and sit through the night, and then Kate discovers her gone.
What do you think? I could really believe something like that. Wouldn't surprise me.
Actually don't you think if there is anyone in all this capable of creating an alibi or even two alibis by stiking up conversations it is Gerry? he has kind of 'been in charge' all the time since M went missing. If he was moved by the wish to protect his wife and his family then I think he would be resourceful enough to think of a plan and carry it out. And also persuade Kate to go along with it. Possibly others. Especially if kate was being weak and in shock. I don't have any problem imagining this - provided he had time. If we are talking an hour or half an hour - then no way. But if as has been said M was 2+ hours dead in the apartment then maybe.
But I do have a problem with other people being involved because this begins to stretch credibility too far.
Martina that theory is very plausible in my opinion, it makes sense someone took charge above K&G. I have seen a lot of rational (also a lot of NOT) theories of how this could have occurred plus even in a short time-line. I am not convinced though they were all involved, I am unconvinced of that. At least I hope not, and someone contradicts the time-line (well actually they all haven't told the same story). Regarding your quote "So, they take some valium themselves and sit through the night...remember all the wine in such a short period." I can buy that theory for sure.
A new nanny who looked after M that afternoon has been found:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...770&
ito=newsnow
its odd that her 'friends' should leak her letters to the Daily Mail but presumably she can confirm that M was in the creche. But why didn't they use her to babysit that night???
Martina, I think that is certainly a very plausible scenario.
It would make it all the more easy to deny sedating, harming, or killing M if it didn't technically happen on their watch.
Then again, I am not convinced that it was terribly hard for them to keep up the charade, knowing the probable consequences for both themselves and other members of their group. Because I think most of us agree that the Tapas group all had at least one dirty little secret - and that was parental negligence at leaving their very young children unattended, reportedly for multiple evenings, and even after being offered babysitting from MW.
The more I think about this, the more I believe that we are missing a key piece of the puzzle - and it may well be known to the PJ (and even the British LE) - and it is just a matter of time until this mystery unravels...
One theory I saw posited on the (sometimes objectionable) Mirror forum is that the accidental death of M may have occured on the night of May 2. I am not saying that I buy that theory, but it illustrates what I mean when I say we are not privy to a key piece of evidence - if M actually died on May 2, it would provide a much looser time line to concoct a ooverup story, figure out what to do with M's body, and rationalize enough (and even possibly confess to a priest) to subside the inevitable guilt.
Guilt that I feel the McCs have suppressed to the point of disbelief. It just does not wash with me that the 2 of them are not at least proclaiming their deep remorse for leaving the children that evening. Yes, they have obliquely acknowledged a sort of mistake, but it certainly does not seem authentic or wholehearted - seems more like a necessary or compulsory statement, rather than the heartfelt, anguished regret one would expect from truly bereft parents.
That being said, I still think that this could all have feasibly happened during the afternoon/evening of May 3 without extending the timeline.
I guess I am just waiting for a leak or another tidbit of "news" that will help me fit this all together in my mind. I think I am close to at least making sense of it all for myself.
Martina,
I think your theory is certainly as good as any other on the 'accidental death' angle. On the Mirror Forum a similar scenario ahs been posted, in addition, much has been made of JTs testimony saying that she was not party to what her partner R'OB was doing and that's why bizarrly she's the only one telling the truth about what she saw when she described a man with a child in a blanket it was R'OB with M. They go on to say that by the time she was asked to help draw an artists impression she did know about his involvement in the cover up hence the 'blank face' and pretty vague decription.
John,
I've read the Nanny's story and I don't like one bit that she's being held up as some kind of witness for G & K. All she is a witness to is looking after the youngsters in the creche and facilitating high tea. What is interesting though is in the early days when G & K were trying to explain why they didn't use the MW babysitting service they said it was because they didn't want to leave the children with 'strangers' and it was this Nanny with whom 'they had a bond' who was on duty!
Liz
Good point Lizbee - I remember the 'we didn't want to leave them with strangers' comment - which I thought was a bit thin at the time.
As regards JT and R O'B - are you really suggesting that JT saw her own partner with M an didn't recognise him? That is stretching credulity a bit. Its possible that JT is thinking she saw something because of her shock - and remembering what she wants to believe. But I don't buy this someone else in charge thing - why on earth would K&G follow someone elses suggestions in this situation.
I totally agree that we are missing the key piece of evidence which will make this all fall into place. We may get a shock!
In addition to lizbee & the nanny from the article link "Intriguingly, Ms Baker revealed to one friend - spoken to by this newspaper - that she told Portuguese police of a man she saw acting strangely near the apartments in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance on May 3." She didn't report this? It reminds of Gerry, did he allegedly told relatives and it was reported "we felt we were being watched", may this is where that theory came from as "she is still in contact with Kate McCann" If the above is indeed true, after the alleged abduction did they allow the twins to go to the creche after this, if they believe an abd./pedi was on the loose?
John,
I wasn't necessarily agreeing with the story from the Mirror blog just offering it up for discussion.
I agree with you, G has been 'the man in charge' from the start, it's part of his make-up, his families make-up for that matter. I can't see him surrenduring power to anyone and as that involves knowledge too I'm not sure who he'd want to share dangerous information with.
Dee - they contradicted an earlier video interview where they said that they felt completely safe and that they were not being watched. One of the many about turns in their story.
The bit in the newspaper story about seeing a man acting strangely is probably a Clarence Mitchell 'lets sow the seeds of doubt' tactic.
Absolutely agree there John, if you review the videos and early articles & interviews they have recently contradicted quite a few statements; I'm sure between us we could draw up a fair list of them!
Just a late night comment on nothing much but it is the weekend.
If you were in the McCanns situation (and let us assume for the purpose of this argument) they are innocent and you are offered a large sum of money to hire a spokesman to give your point of view in the most believable manner, the obvious thing, again if you are totally innocent is to employ one who comes from a top class outfit with an untarnished reputation. Why would the McCanns hire an ex government spokesman who worked for the most manipulative, lie telling, story spinning, devious and underhand organisation ever to run the U.K.
Tony Blair and his "spokesmen" turned deceit into an art form. Iraq's weapons of mass destruction ready within 45 minutes, and probably our American friends don't know this but one hour after the 9/11 attack a government "spokesperson" sent out an e mail suggesting and I quote "This would be a good day to bury bad news". That person was dismissed not for the disgusting suggestion but for breaking the 11th commandment "Thou shalt not get caught"
I believe that Clarence was appointed not because he is a solid truth teller, on the contrary he got where he was in government by spinning a series of disasters into New Labour triumphs. I personally thought Auntie Phil was doing a better job than Clarence and she'd have been a lot cheaper!
There's something more that's bothering me about the timeline re: comings and goings to and from the creche over the lunch-time period on 3rd May.
I'm sure K & G initially said that they took the children to the beach for a picnic lunch that day. Then there's 'the last photo' at the side of the pool in the MW resort taken at what time exactly? 1.29pm or 2.29pm? Weren't they supposed to have been back in creche by 2.00pm and hasn't it been established that the position of the sun/shadows cast meant that the photo was taken around 1.00pm?
(An aside here but were G, M and A wearing the same clothes as depicted in the last photo that lunch-time?) They picked the children up at 12.30pm on May 3rd as per creche testimonies. The beach is not that far away but could you really walk down there & lunch with 3 toddlers at the beach then walk back in time to take a super relaxed photo at the MW poolside at 1.29pm? And impossible to have taken it at 1.00pm and have fitted lunch and the beach in.??
Dee -
"Intriguingly, Ms Baker revealed to one friend - spoken to by this newspaper - that she told Portuguese police of a man she saw acting strangely near the apartments in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance on May 3." She didn't report this?
If she didn't report it, then what exactly does she told Portuguese police mean?
I have never read in the paper Lizbee " hasn't it been established that the position of the sun/shadows cast meant that the photo was taken around 1.00pm?" Anyone else? I would find that hard to believe that could precisely be determined, one cloud in the way, wouldn't that distort shadows in theory? However, I do remember from reading the PJ had an explanation on the time stamp and it was agreed the time was 1:30 instead of 2:30 as per camera. Anyone remember reading in a paper, what time the kids were officially signed back in after lunch?
DC Why didn't she report it to superiors at that time if she was so suspicious? Why wait until something happens is the point I meant, sorry.
Going back to the time stamp on that last picture & the PJ the time could be reversed...have to try and find a newspaper source to confirm that 1 hour difference and which way that ended up. That is a very interesting point Lizbee and it should be determined. Where is PDG??? Girl, we need your help here!
Just on another note, one of the many reasons I like this place to post opinions is we use the "so called facts" from a newspaper (giving sources) and when discuss theories we call them that. That's the best you can do in this most unusual case.
Dee,
'The last photo' is a blog on the Mirror forum. Some people have taken the time to analyse the photo as they did not beleive it to be genuine. Around the time of this particular blog it had come out that the original published time in all media was that the last photo had been taken at 2.29pm as K & G had always stated, this wasn't questioned for months. However, much later, it transpired that this could not have been the case as the children (certainly Amelie who is featured in the picture) were supposed to have been back at the creche by 2.00pm, G then said that there was a 'fault on the timer' and it was 1.29pm when the photo was taken. The blogger on the Mirror Forum puts some very interesting information forward (which certainly gives food for thought) about the validity of the photo itself. I don't know enough about techie stuff myself but it certainly got me thinking. The stuff about sun rising times and shadows is backed up by links to met sites with the necessary data.
Even apart from the photo I can't see how they did so much with the children in the lunch break. I have twins and an older one and when they were that age I wouldn't have contemplated dragging them around so much if I were going to spend so little of my day with them... but then I certainly don't do parenting McCann style so what do I know?
Liz
If you're looking for this on the mirror forum: go to mirror.co.uk then to forums, then to huntformaddy, then page 5 and open 'The forged last photo', you'll see why it can't simply be cut and pasted or hyperlinked. As usual you don't need to be signed in to view.
re: not leaving the kids with a stranger / bonding with MW nanny...
I believe the newspaper article says that the nanny joined in the search for Maddie around 11pm after finishing her child-minding duties.
My assumption was that she was previously engaged.
Liz - re: "I've read the Nanny's story and I don't like one bit that she's being held up as some kind of witness for G & K. All she is a witness to is looking after the youngsters in the creche and facilitating high tea. What is interesting though is in the early days when G & K were trying to explain why they didn't use the MW babysitting service they said it was because they didn't want to leave the children with 'strangers' and it was this Nanny with whom 'they had a bond' who was on duty!"
My understanding from reading that story was that this nanny joined in the search for M at about 11 pm - after she had completed a child-minding assignment. So, probably she had a previous engagement. Of course, this doesn't mean that they would have hired her in the event that she were available, but it's one explanation about their comments about leaving the kids with a stranger.
...just got caught up on all the super posts - it's ok to be on the fence til you get all those troubling questions cleared up in your mind - I wonder why kate went from anesthesiologist to GP - or was she just a nurse anesthetist - I too remember the lame excuse of not leaving the kids with strangers hence no babysitter -
...Mitchell is getting paid to spin and cause reasonable doubt -I'm sure the McC's are only saying what he tells them to - so if they continually contradict themselves then it is Mitchells fault now -
lizbee -
re: the photo thread on the mirror forum...
Since we've now got a witness who says she saw Madeleine very much alive until 6pm on May 3, theAuthor's entire post is moot.
And on top of that, just on a personal note, theAuthor comes across as a loon with an overly exaggerated sense of self-importance and way too much time on his/her hands.
I just had to add, to everyone here...
Never, ever have I seen such a nest of hysterical mob mentality on the internet such as exists on the forum in question above. Photographers, retouching professionals and graphic artists post their very accurate (to my fellow professional graphic artist's eye) evaluations of the photo (which I again, with my ten+ years of professional experience agree with), and they are either ignored out out-right called incompetent, and then calls are put out for "real" professionals to judge.
Wow. Just... wow. In the past hour that I have spent trudging through less than 1/2 of that one thread, I have come to appreciate this place, and all of you, more than I ever thought possible.
Steve... thank you for giving this to us. And everyone... thank you for being what you all are.
I must admit that the "bloody footprint" news/leak led me to research the running shoes I have seen so often in the picture of K & G jogging together...
I deduced that she is wearing a pair of Saucony and he a pair of Asics, neither of which have a cirle or square pattern. Rather, the Saucony has a distinctive triangular pattern on the outsole, and the Asics an elliptoid shape.
Perhaps I am wrong on the shoe brands, but I was compelled enough to check that out. Why? Because, again, I keep trying to put myself in K's shoes (literally here, I might add!) in order to figure out what really happened to M.
And I wear a size 6, which I think is the most/one of the most common shoe sizes among women. And, just 2 months ago, I broke the metatarsal in my right foot by hefting an enormous suitcase from the trunk of my car - and yep, I did use my left foot as leverage on the back of the car. Granted, I am petite, but I think K falls into that category as well - though it's hard to say, since so little is really "known" about her...
Anyway, I know it's neither here nor there, but that does explain the focus on K by the PJ, if the footprints are really to be believed...
On another note, I am somewhat dismayed by this new piece to the puzzle - which admittedly is still uncorroborated, as are most of the "facts" in this case - because I really did not want to consider that M really was hurt enough to cause blood flow. Until now, I had attributed the blood in the trunk to a thawing, decomposing body leaking out of a suitcase - horrid, yes - but far less horrific than the idea of M being physically abused as well.
Call me crazy, but I am much more comfortable assuming it was an accidental overdose than entertaining the terrible thought that M may have been in pain when she died...
So count me in as one who is waiting to see if these new claims pan out on Monday...
sigh.
Just reading back over a few posts again, and I noticed this.
Maggie - re: the child in the bathroom stall
Are you positive you read that here? I ask only because I've read every post Steve has made since Kelsey Smith disappeared, and because of this.
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/pa...ntal/
kidnap.asp
Hi DC,
Yes I did read it here. It was in the comments section of a much older thread regarding the disappearance of Madeleine. Seems like it's either an apocryphal tale or it happens quite a lot. I've never been on the website you highlighted.
It seems that we are getting some more information (the News of the World) regarding what happened the moment Kate found Madeleine gone. She is reported to have noticed that she knew Madeleine was taken because the shape of her daughter in the bed was still fresh and it looked like she was just taken out of it quite gently. It is also reported that 'friends' believe this information will clear Kate.
What sort of planet are the 'friends' living on?
Just a couple of more things. If all on this forum are confused by the timelines then think how the police investigating the case must feel. For those of us on here who live in Britain, there is a good programme on Channel 4 this Thursday 18/10/07. 'Searching for Madeleine: A Dispatches Special'. A team, including five of the UK's best qualified criminal investigators, one of whom headed the investigation into the Soham murders, travel to PDL to review the investigation. Channel 4 have always reported this case in an objective manner avoiding hype and name calling so it should be worth watching.
I think the reporting on Madeleine's nanny is a bad piece of jounalism. It reads like a cut and paste job. Her testimony is all over the place which suggests to me that she didn't actually speak to the newspapers.
I hold no truck with the 'forged photo' line. It may have been touched up a bit to hide sweat marks but that's about it. The name calling on the Mirror forum is a disgrace and often good points are forgotten. One good thread to read there is the one on the DNA.
The Daily Mail article has the FSS say that apparently the PJ are interpreting the test results wrongly as they are not conclusive. There seems to be not one conclusive result, but still PJ interprets everything as pointing in the direction of accident/murder and hiding of the body.
http://tinyurl.com/2kgpe4
dee, lizbee: hi! my recollection is that although the camera said 2.29 it was actually taken at 1.29.(something about there being no time different between portugal and the UK, also read something about time on camera being an hour out).
I think the creche opens in the afternoon at 2.30pm not 2pm.
Emma- wow! hot sleuthing! checking out the footprints...
I'm a photographer and I'm afraid I didn't agree with theauthors (incredible) research on the photo either.
The imprint of madeleine in the bed? I really cannot see how this backs up the abductor story.
Alot of sloppy reporting from the UK. My journalist friend told me his editor was constantly pressurising him to come up with new stories because the Mccanns thing sells papers(and boosts website traffic too, look at all these threads that steve has had to open, 27,000 comments on the Mirror forum, there are comment sections in france, in spain,everywhere...). Anyway the journalist had no new information half the time so was reduced to dredging up any old thing and trying to make it into a story. Plus to be honest he's rather lazy and none of them are doing any proper investigative reporting (but maybe cos it would damage any prospect of a fair trial?). As he said, he was more interested in his expense account than the nitty gritty of this case.
Also I agree that the name calling on the MIrror forum is awful but some of the posters are absolutely hilarious, so many mad characters!=FACT!
Martina: the footprint has got to be suspect hasn't it. The apartment and the hire car are separated by 25 days - so was someone walking around with blood on their trainers for three and half weeks?
Pdg - the photo - the camera showed 1:29 but was explained as faulty by the McCanns and an hour out (therefore 2:29). There is no time difference between UK and Portugal. theAuthor's analysis is based on the angles of shadows as the sun was at its zenith at 1:29 which is an odd coincidence. However using the angles of shadows cast by gerry's head/neck on his T-shirt seems particularly doubtful cos he could have been leaning forward and so on. I would bet that theAuthor thinks that Princess Diana was shot by the man on the grassy knoll to cover up the faked moon landings.
Chaplins and the church: http://s215.photobucket.com/
al..........church.flv
The narrow alleyway behind the apt: http://s215.photobucket.com/
al..........rtment.flv
more intrepid sleuthing from detective mums, toddler in hand!
john, so the picture was taken later rather than earlier?
The footprint, could it be that the traces of blood only show up under the luminol(?) light only...and this remains even if you wash the visible blood off?
Re the footprint. Not if the trainer was taken off and then stowed later in the car.
Bloody footprint ... it sounds so dramatic. I think Agatha Christie would turn in her grave if she read those media reports.
I don't really buy it. So far only the real trashy papers have reported it, right? Let's wait and see what better ones have to say.
It must have showed under luminol - if it existed at all - I don't think the app wasn't cleaned for weeks?
If it showed under luminol it could have been from anybody, anytime.
Pdg - I suppose the pic is only important if the nanny cannot confirm M was in the crache till 6:00 pm (?). If not then either 1:29 or 2:29 gives the whole afternoon.
This video is interesting (although for some reason recorded from TV) gives you a real sense of the distance from Tapas bar to apartment.
http://s215.photobucket.com/
albu...t=apartment.flv
BTW pdg your links didn't work for me - not sure why.
Wonder if we'll know anything tomorrow? when FSS results are officially there.
Martina:
"I think Agatha Christie would turn in her grave if she read those media reports. "
Shame that the McCanns didn't have a butler - then case would be solved.
Diario de Noticias, Today:
Rebelo enlists 6 new inspectors for the Maddie’s case
The PJ will carry out new searches in Praia da Luz in a 15 km radius zone. The squad of inspectors for the Maddie case, now supervised by Paulo Rebelo and reinforced with 6 elements coming from several central directions, will in the next days perform the searches in an area of 15 kilometers radius from the Ocean Club apartment, where the English child was spending her holidays with her parents and her twin siblings.
Is it the retaking of the work done the days following the disappearance of Maddie? - When the theory of abduction was admitted- some days after the PJ National Director, Alípio Ribeiro, declared that all the lines of inquiry remained open and nothing is conclusive about the disappearance of the British child, occurred the 3rd of May, in Praia da Luz.
An extensive area of forests with spare houses, near the Bravura dam, in Odiáxere, from the Pincho village, north of the county of Lagos, will be of particular interest to the police.
Furthermore, other areas in the south of the Ocean Club, next to the beach in Praia da Luz and Burgau, would be passed to the fine comb by the inspectors, theses places were the McCann couple and the friends did communicate over cell phones during their holidays in the Algarve.
Until now, the new coordinator of the Maddie, Paulo Rebelo who has a workgroup readjusted for this process and composed with more a tenth of inspectors, is reexamining all the details of the action done by his colleagues during the last 5 and half months.
According to the DN, Rebelo want to check a few controversial points that he found in the investigation reports already in his hands. He is a detective “with a lot of experience and he is very meticulous”, guarantees sources within the police. The apartment where Maddie vanished has been reanalyzed, for at least two consecutive [days?], by inspectors, in the beginning of the last week. In the next days, Paulo Rebelo would return there.
"Shame that the McCanns didn't have a butler - then case would be solved."
john: one of the links i provided was the same as yours. sorry you are right about the links not working.
heres the other one: http://s215.photobucket.com/
albu...rent=church.flv
The Sun now explains this:
"Police were told that Kate knew straight away that her daughter had been snatched because the bedclothes were still raised above the mattress as if they were still lying over the four-year-old, the News of the World reports.
Supporters of the McCanns say this meant that she must have been carefully removed from the bed while asleep and taken, rather than just getting up and wandering off, which would have ruffled the bedclothes.
A Portugese police source told the paper: “People keep asking how did Kate know so quickly that Madeleine had been taken and not just walked out.
“But it’s obvious. When she put Maddie to bed the child was all tucked up around the shoulders, and when Kate realised she was gone all the sheets were still neatly in place.
“A child of that age wouldn’t have been able to get out of bed without moving a thing. Someone had clearly been in and carefully lifted her out. Kate realised that right away."
---
Where is the cuddly cat on the shelve statement now? Wasn't that always the reason Kate had known straight away?
I think the Sun writers are having a boring Sunday.
Re Martina
Nothing at all proves that Maddie was alive. If Kate tells the truth, that all means that someone has taken the child and put the bed in order.
That's misinformation.
Re pdg
Try that link:
http://tinyurl.com/332jpt
"In the past hour that I have spent trudging through less than 1/2 of that one thread, I have come to appreciate this place, and all of you, more than I ever thought possible.
Steve... thank you for giving this to us. And everyone... thank you for being what you all are."
I sign this. Well said, DC.
Someone (might even been me!!!) was saying there was little info on Kate - well there is this from Wikipedia (so treat with due care):
"Kate McCann
Kate Marie McCann (née Healy, 1967 in Allerton, Liverpool, England), Madeleine's mother, is a medical general practitioner.
Kate studied medicine at the University of Dundee. Initially she specialised to become a gynaecologist, but later became an anaesthetist. She met her future husband Gerry McCann while employed at the Western Infirmary in Glasgow.They were married in 1998."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Mad...ann#Kate_McCann
Some papers now saying that the UK police are going to interview people who know the McCanns - possibly 100s of people. The only reason I can think of is psychological profiling. If that is important now then could we speculate that they think they have a good case (?).
Pdg - thanks for the church video link. Its quite odd but I feel as if I have been there now. And is Chaplins there close to the church - that's quite a long way from the Ocean Club.
"But I do have a problem with other people being involved because this begins to stretch credibility too far."
John, I'm always a bit surprised when you say that.
Do you find it more believable that only K+G where there when she died and they hid her body and got rid of it (when?) without a car (how?).
I find that not very believable, also because they would have had to be so cool headed and cold hearted in a situation where no parent would be.
It makes more sense, I think, to assume a friend who somehow had a part in the accident, helped them during those 2 or 3 hours with a) the disposal or hiding of the body and b) since he was more able to think clearly (being less involved emotionally) coming up with a cover up story.
"Some papers now saying that the UK police are going to interview people who know the McCanns - possibly 100s of people. The only reason I can think of is psychological profiling. If that is important now then could we speculate that they think they have a good case (?)."
Can't quite follow you there, John. Can you explain? Profiling is more likely done when the police think they have a strong case?
Martina - yes, if you put it that way it does make sense. I suppose my gut reaction is that the more people know then the more likely it is that someone would blab. There have been suggestions that all the Tapas crowd are in on it cos they are swingers or something worse.
I've lead a sheltered life and with Diane Webster there I just think it gets ridiculous - swinging with your mother in law (?) - (well if you met my mother in law you'd think the same ....)
The profiling would be to build up a picture of people who would be capable of acting in a specific way i.e as described by the PJ scenario - and so they most likely have quite a strong scenario.
I think they also wouldn't spend the time, energy & money if they didn't feel they had a very strong case they feel will end up in court.
Re Martina Profiling is more likely done when the police think they have a strong case?
Psychological profiling report has been asked by the PJ to the British police at the beginning of the inquiry, I
’ve seen it in the news of RTP. A criminologist, ex PJ detective was complaining that the British police never provide a report about the McCanns.
I was thinking about the evening Madeleine was 'taken'. I went through the known facts. They are: Madeleine is missing. Gerry was talking to Jeremy Wilkins from 9.05pm to 9.15pm. Madeleine was reported missing by Kate at 10pm it was her first check of the night. Very little is actually known. It's bordering on the ridiculously scant.
One thing is continually grating with me. It is leaving the sliding doors to the apartment unlocked. Kate said in an interview for Women's Hour, BBC Radio 4 that PDL was a very relaxing, happy place they had no reason to believe the kids were in danger which is why she and G left them alone. She also mentioned that constant checks were being made. But I still think you wouldn't leave a door unlocked if you had valuables such as passports, money and jewelry. Therefore I believe that all doors to the apartment was locked - Kate also said Madeleine wouldn't have wondered off. This suggests to me that the doors were locked. I think that the time crucial for this investigation is 7.00pm to 8.30pm.
Another thing that I find funny is that while the men made cursory checks, i.e. listening and not disturbing the children, Kate went to the bedroom. Now why would she do this? Was there something in the main living area that alerted her such as blood that prompted a more detailed check?
Naah, I can't get my mind around the swinger bit either.
And I don't believe all 9 are 'in it'. But IF one or two of them helped G+K, do you think they would talk about it with the other 5?
I know a group of friends in my hometown, they are very very close knit, go on holidays together, live together. Outsiders have a hard time getting into the 'inner circle' of that strange group. I could imagine them keeping things strictly to themselves. But don't know if the Tapas 9 were like that.
Where did you find the bit about police going to interview other friends and acquaintances? Can't find anything.
The daliy star: http://tinyurl.com/yvbek4
THE body of missing Madeleine McCann could lie by the church where her parents prayed for her safe return.
Investigators were last night planning to dig outside Our Lady of Light chapel in Praia da Luz.
They spent part of yesterday examining a grassy knoll on the hillside site that was the resort's cemetery before a new one was opened nearby.
http://tinyurl.com/yvbek4
"Investigators were last night planning to dig outside Our Lady of Light chapel in Praia da Luz.
They spent part of yesterday examining a grassy knoll on the hillside site that was the resort
’s cemetery before a new one was opened nearby."
The truth at last! They buried her on a grassy knoll... so it has to be a conspiracy. The CIA had her killed by Frank Sinatra's ghost to hide the fact that her mother was having an affair with Elvis...
...
What?
I read somewhere "every good conspiracy theory needs a grass knoll".
Martina:
Police to quiz people -
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman...m?
id=1641422007
Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
A bloody footprint was found in Kate and Gerry McCann's apartment, matching a print on their hire car, according to a forensic report shown to The Mail on Sunday.
The People:
http://www.people.co.uk/news/tm_...-
name_page.html
MADDIE COPS: SHE WAS THROWN OFF BOAT
EXCLUSIVE Testimony of nanny Charlotte is 'credible' Mystery suspect was wearing fluorescent top MADELEINE: POLICE PREDICT A BREAKTHROUGH
What is a knoll? Somehow it brings indecent images to mind ...
Thanks John!
If I was going to dispose of a body at sea I would definitely wear a floursecent jacket - this would provide maximum visibility should there be a nanny standing on the shore looking out over the water. Having first left a clear trail of bloody footprints to mark out my route of course.
From Jose's link - thanks by the way.
"New tests carried out at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham show there is a 'moderate' chance that the blood belonged to Madeleine. But the results are inconclusive. What they believe is significant about the footprint is that no traces of blood were found around it."
Hhhmmm it will be interesting to see if more blood was found in the apt. Wonder if Kate's new version of the bedding being straightened is to set-up a theory the abductor also cleaned up any blood? If so that's what I call ludicrous; places c.cat on shelf, straightens bed, cleans up blood!
Martina:
"What is a knoll? Somehow it brings indecent images to mind ..."
That speaks volumes about your mind! Its a small hill mound or hillock.
Re Martina
knoll: a small round hill
So this Sunday evening are we all suitably confused at what the heck is going on? Do any of us harbour doubts? Grassy knoll. I'm indignant - you couldn't make it up. I've seen images of PDL from the air and there are NO Grassy Knolls.
I dare say the forensics will bring even more confusion. I was at the end of my tether with this BUT John you saved me with your post on the flourescent jacket. Priceless.
Now don't get me started on 'hillock'!
Sorry, I'm feeling silly today ...
Maggie I say even if the case will be 'solved' one day we will still be confused and bewildered and walk around day and night wondering, pondering ...
If only the PJ had bungled the initial investigation so much.
From google maps, you will see in the center a hill with a road in spiral, I think that s the knoll they are talking about in the article:
http://tinyurl.com/3bxqho
The police are guessing more than us, honestly they need to perhaps take a step back and think before theory number 100 arrives.
Yes Jose it's a hill (grassy knoll? - no and this word has associations with conspiracy theories) but why would they go there? Surely there would be evidence of disturbance?
Sorry Martina I don't concur with your surmation of the PJ. Their only mistake was to believe the parents in the first place. Searches were made. But lets be honest. If they had treated the apartment as a crime scene and the parents as suspects from the start.......who knows. I think they are doing a good job. There isn't a police force in the world that can stand up to such scrutiny.
"If they had treated the apartment as a crime scene"
That's what I meant. It was most crucial in this case. Had they done this, whether it would implicate the parents or not, it would likely have long ago lead to a clearer picture.
I wondered when a 'grassy knoll' would enter the frame. Unbelievable!
Re: Mirror Forum. Yes it's as mad as a box of frogs in there and occasionally a bit scary, I dip in from time to time to see if they have any interesting new leads and there are a couple of interesting threads but I wouldn't find it good for my mental health to stay in there for any length of time.
My concern about the photo was again about timing and whether anything was tampered with to provide an alibi of being at the MW poolside for some, as yet unknown, reason. As John pointed out above there are still some questions about that.
Liz
New extensive searches to be done in a 10 mile area aorund PDL.
Interestingly it says
"Portuguese detectives are concerned that the inquiry has failed to rule out the possibility that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger."
http://tinyurl.com/ywg5yq
So are you saying the PJ are a bunch of hillocks?
Re: The 'Walk up the lane from the appt.' video.
I thought I'd seen all of Ellibean's vids but I hadn't seen this one. It's very interesting as I had no idea that the back of the Tapas Bar backed onto the lane. Yes there's a wall and a bush there but would it have been possible for someone to get over those and to the side entrance of the appt. quickly and without being seen?
The PJs early investigations deserve a kick up their grassy knolls.
Sorry coulnd't resist that.
Liz
Lizbee thanks for the tip on the DNA forum site, it was very, very good. I tried to find it today, but couldn't. Luckily I copied the best part to send to a friend. I hope & trust this person with DNA experience will come back this week and analyze any new info. and also that site reappears so I for, one won't have to wade through the slop and trash.
Yes Steve, thank you for this site. Also the only time I get some pop-ups is from certain newspaper sites only, not here. I am also using firefox.
"So are you saying the PJ are a bunch of hillocks?"
lmao!
Hillocks, grassy knobs ... soming like that.
Seriously, what did Amaral do? Maybe it's easier to say what he didn't do:
he didn't secure the crime scene and items such as cuddly cat
he didn't then rule out everyone who had trampled the crime scene by taking a DNA sample
he didn't impound the car
he didn't impound all the shoes of everybody to match the footprint
he didn't search all these places he said he would have searched (what will hopefully be done now)
he didn't search the villa where they stayed later
and so on
:roll eyes:
This links to a perfect example of why I think this entire thing, no matter what your opinion on guilt or innocence, has become almost farcical (and yes, people other than the McCanns do use that word).
http://tinyurl.com/ysv7pl
All in one day of headlines, the PJ are apparently simultaneously convinced that the case will be solved by mysterious bloody footprints (which, cannot possibly have been left in two places 25 days apart and which are reported to have only a "moderate" chance of being Madeleine's) and that her body was dumped at sea on May 5.
And looking at that site's tagline, "Keeping tabs on the tabloids" - these are headlines from The Mirror, News of the World (which bears a disclaimer inside that the majority of their content is made up on the spot and is for entertainment purposes only), The Times, The Mail, The People, and The Observer.
Have we gotten any "news" from any other British papers, aside from The Telegraph? Is there such a thing (and I ask this in all seriousness, because I honestly don't know) as a non-tabloid newspaper in the UK?
Because if all of these are considered tabloids, then about 95% of the stories we've been reading have the very real possibility of being absolute bunk.
Martina,
Steady. If truth be told, the apartment had already been trampled over by the the time the PJ had arrived, by a bunch of medics who ought to have known better. My point really was that I suspect the PJ were too deferential to the intimidating English tourists who were insisting the police launch a nationwide search and close the borders. Out of frustration that not enough was being done, the parents and friends then contacted Sky News, catapulting the affair into global phenomenon that it has now become.
DC me...thinks C.M. was busy this weekend with smoke & mirrors again, trying to confuse, so when the hopefully "real" results come in, nobody will believe the press. The footprint especially seems to have his mark on it. There is no way the Daily whoever got this test leaked to them, this has to be old info. that was never leaked because it was deemed insignificant. Why now, because the McSpins want you to believe it's new and if that's the best of the tests maybe you won't bother reading next week in my opinion.
Hey you lot I do the funnies and irony on this thread! Butlers, grassy knolls and this from Maggie:
"Kate also said Madeleine wouldn't have wondered off. This suggests to me that the doors were locked. I think that the time crucial for this investigation is 7.00pm to 8.30pm. Another thing that I find funny is that while the men made cursory checks, i.e. listening and not disturbing the children, Kate went to the bedroom. Now why would she do this? Was there something in the main living area that alerted her such as blood that prompted a more detailed check?"
I wandered at first why M wondered off then realised I had done the same, but as for why Kate went into the bedroom, you have obviously forgotten Gerry's new testimony. After a "cursory check" of the children he obviously went back to the restaurant and said to his wife "I had a funny feeling that there may have been an abductor in our children's room when I checked it just now, when you go up there in half an hours time you had better have a good look around."
There you go Maggie see when you put all the evidence together in a logical manner it is self-explanatory.
Stanley
When I saw my mistake I was going to repost but decided not to. I just knew some smart ass pedant would point that out . Thank you for making me smile. Of course when you put the evidence together it's self-explanatory.
Maggie, please, don't 'steady' me. I believe, and please no offence, that you are wearing pink shades when it comes to the work of the PJ, which leaves much to ask for.
And in case somebody feels to jump up here and say, but hey, they aren't any better in the UK/US/anywhere else, yes, most likely true, but then also we feel it's our right to criticise the British, American or German police, so why not the Portugese PJ? I don't see the reason at all why they should be forgiven their mistakes.
DC, I agree with you, I had similar doubts about the footprint story, and you might well be right.
But just in case they are correct and to avoid further confusion: as far I understood the report it says that a bloody print was found in the apartment and another one which was NOT bloody but from the same shoe was on the boot of the trunk.
NOTE FROM STEVE:
I really don't like doing this, but I'm posting in these comments in particular to let folks know that if you've ever considered making a donation to help The True Crime Weblog out, now would be a very good time. Just go to the main page of the blog and click the PayPal donation button on the top left-hand side of the page. Any amount would be helpful.
No matter what, thank you all for being here and in this discussion in particular, the considered and intelligent nature of your posts.
Steve
Martina,
No offence meant and no offence taken.
I'm not wearing rose tinted glasses. I like to look at all angles in this case. Mistakes have been made on both sides. I have never known a crime where this didn't happen.
DC: lol.
The tabloids are: the Daily Mirror(left wing), The sun (right wing), The star (a bit like the National Enquirer but more breasts).
Mid range tabloids are: The Daily Mail (uber right wing), The daily Express.(right wing)
The broadsheets are: (although some of the are now in tabloid format): The times,The Daily Telegraph, Financial Times (right wing), The Guardian (left wing), The independant (neutral)
But tabloids in the UK are not just trash, they also have serious articles and issues. Journalism in the UK is alot more feisty than in the US. Less reverant.
They have quite alot of power, think about it, 10 daily national newspapers!
Just to continue: Sunday papers:
Tabloids: (also known as Red tops because their name is usually in red):News of the World (known as News of the Screws)(sister paper of The Sun), The People, Sunday Mirror.
MId range tabloids:The Sunday Express, The Mail on Sunday.
Broadsheets: The Observor, The Sunday Times, The Sunday Telegraph.
And of course hundreds of local newspapers.
We are a newspaper reading nation par excellence.
As for portuguese police. I think it was Carlos who said that the Portuguese police got off to the wrong start because they were being polite to the Mccanns as visitors. I think they were wrong footed also by the massive media attention talking about an abduction.
What else to add about our illustrious neswpapers; well they are UK based so 99.9% of the people reading them know what they are getting wehther it be on page 3 or in the sports section or god forbid the pages with words on in between. The people who want news do know that there's the spin on it (apart from the tiny % of the population that can't spell spin and who would be having the newspaper read to them by someone else anyway).
Anyone deadly serious about news gets a Broadsheet: Guardian (favoured), Independant, Observor (all v. good for crosswords too!).
I have a hate, hate, laugh ourageously, hate, love, hate, laugh, hate, relationship with the redtops; mostly I hate them, now and again they make me laugh and on a couple of occasions in my lifetime I've loved them for doing something extra (like the Mirror's Pride of GB Awards which really are something else).
On a more 'on focus' topic I now doubt new proveable DNA type evidence will emmerge, other than an actual body. There can't be any that hasn't disintegrated to the point os non-establishment of true ownership surely?
Anyone else with suggestions as to how this will pan out?
Liz
liz and pdg -
Thanks so much for the heads-up on the papers in the UK. I know it's rather easy to spot a US tabloid - if you can buy it on the right-hand side of the checkout lane at Wal-Mart, it's a tabloid - but I've got no experience with UK tabloids other than News of the World. I loves me some BatBoy, I do. :D
On the DNA...
I'll admit that I'm far from an expert, because I'm under no illusions that having a crush on Nick Stokes equates to any kind of actual knowledge about what real forensic scientists actually do, but to my mind it would seem that any DNA they would collect at any scene now would be far too old to get anything definitive from. But the amount of cold cases that have been solved decades after the fact based on DNA and other forensics tests leads me to believe that evidence that was collected immediately, if stored and preserved correctly, can continue to yield definitive results years and years later.
One has to wonder, though, with all the testing that's been done in Birmingham these past few months... what would be the point of new tests on the original evidence? Surely there can't be any tests they haven't run.
Exactly DC, that was my point.
Surely they've scrutinised what they have to death by now. And stuff collected at this late date... well how 'evidential' could that be proved to be i.e.hold up in a court of law especially with the calibre of lawyers likely to be involved.
Without M (one way or the other) I don't believe there's enough to go on for us, a jury or anyone. It saddens me because the whole world now needs some kind of closure (undeniably a happy one is what we'd all hope and pray for) but somehow I don't think we're going to get it.
My heart does truly go out to the family, because whatever came to pass I believe they loved and only wanted the best for her and them.
Liz
lizbee -
100% agreement on your last statement.
One of the things that has amazed me about this entire thing is the sheer number of "perfect" parents there seem to be in the world. Entire forums seem to be populated by nothing but, in fact.
Because the amount of sheer venom being thrown at them, every single word, every expression, every gesture, everything they've ever done or been alleged to do... to some people, it's all just proof that they're horrible, terrible parents who obviously don't love their children and should have the two they have remaining taken away.
I've got four kids, ranging in age from five to fourteen. My three youngest are are only nineteen and fifteen months apart, respectively. So I've been where the McCanns are now, with three children three and under. I have no problem believing that there are perfectly innocent explanations for all the things they've been vilified for, because I've been there and done that myself already.
Have I ever given one of my children a dose of Tylenol because they're so overtired they can't sleep and they're miserable? I'd be lying if I said no. Have I ever lost my temper with any of them? Of course I have - I'm human. Have I ever thrown my hands up in surrender because one or more of them is just too much to handle? On more than one occasion.
None of that means I don't love them, or don't want them, or don't deserve them. What it means is that I'm human, not superwoman. But if anything ever happened to one of them, and if it became a worldwide spectacle like this case has... there'd be a thousand "perfect" mothers at my door the next day, screaming what an unfit mother I am, declaring that I should be robbed of the children I have left, and even daring to claim (and this ticks me off to no end about a large number of regular posters to certain forums) that they love my children far more than I ever could and they'll go to the ends of the Earth to prove it (all without ever leaving the comfort of their own keyboards).
Yes, they made mistakes - some that I've made myself - but of course they love their daughter. Whatever happened to her, no, I don't doubt that it never occurred to them that it would happen, whatever "it" is. But they're human, and humans are nothing if not imperfect, no matter what some people might claim.
The 24Horas quotes the British press, this morning:
Part of the forensic report revealed by British newspapers
Same marks in house and car
An astonishing revelation could be reported in the forensic report of Birmingham, which should arrive this week in Portugal: a bloody footprint, found in the McCann’s apartment, has been analyzed by the experts.
These right footwear mark, size 5 or 6, is coinciding with another one found in the rear bumper of the car rented by the McCanns, according to the news reported yesterday in the British newspaper “The Mail on Sunday”.
The mark in the car could indicate that someone has carried the body out of the car’s trunk.
May be it’s the conviction of the judicial police, according to the British newspaper, and may be it’s that proof that drew the McCanns to the center of suspicion in the disappearance of their daughter.
No trace of blood has been found the footprint detected in the car.
But the blood in the footprint found in the apartment has been tested for DNA. The results conclude that it matches with Maddie’s blood in a moderate scale.
That means that that’s not a conclusive proof.
The scales used in the laboratory are rated with the following levels: no scientific evidence, limited, moderate, moderately strong, strong, very strong, extremely strong and conclusive.
'It is quite possible, therefore, that the blood had been picked up on the sole of the shoe from outside the apartment’ reports a source close the investigation to the “The Mail on Sunday”.
The proof could be inconclusive.
Steve
Sorry to raise such a mundane matter on this thread, but Pay Pal will not allow me to pay without telling them what state I live in and my ZIP code, and despite many people here believing the U.K. is the 51st state it will not work can you advise?
Correio da Manhă headlines this morning:
148 computers inspected
Hundreds of children’s faces were downloaded from paedophile sites, but the judicial experts used software specialized in recognition of blond Childs, with ages and characteristics similar to Maddie, in another research for the English child. 148 computers, apprehended Tuesday in all the country, were passed to the fine comb - and, as usual, nothing has been found.
Steve,
I am having trouble with this site now - have you changed something? Firefox is tryng to downoad something from www.gravatar / ec1.images-amazon.com, have tried Safari (I'm on a Mac) and that doesn't complete download either.
Cheers.
DC
Well said... I to too am no 'super' mother, and i doubt if KM is either.
With 3 children under 4, and 20 mths between them, it could be very possible that KM may have suffered/be suffering Post Natal Depression, Its only an opinion.
It may explain why she seems detatched, almost bemused. It may explain why she seems to heavily rely on GM, ( she always seems to be looking to him for 'support' in the photos i have seen of them together)
And the running... who goes out running within days of your daughter going missing?
well its a know fact that excersice can combat the effects of depression.
So maybe the theory of an 'accident' can be held up, maybe she was at the 'end of her tether' an accident happened, Madeleine was hurt.
There are theories around that Madeleine fell and broke her neck and that CSF (cerebrospinal fluid) was recovered, which is why the portugese police are sure Madeleine is dead.
A leak of CSF can occur following a head, neck or spinal injury.
No-one is a super, yummy mummy (hate that phrase). I myself had two little girls under the age of 3 and it was tough and even though I have a six year age gap with the third it's tougher still. Worse are mums who cope without any help or support from their spouse. Thankfully I did have all the help I needed but some are not so lucky and I have great sympathy for women who struggle (I knew a few and their life was and still is swamped). Anyone can have an accident with a child but I don't condone leaving very young children alone in a holiday apartment, no matter how often the checks.
Macushla, I've not read about the CSF fluid being found but the PJ do seem certain that Madeleine is dead, and who knows what evidence they have. It's all very sad.
Steve please let us in the UK know how to contribut with PayPal.
An interesting article 15th October:
http://tinyurl.com/2hs3fx
John (UK) I also use Safari on a Mac and have no problems with the thread other than trying to pay for it! (see my entry 3:40am) anyone else in Uk have this problem?
Jose (FR) - thanks for that link.
The article is one of those rather spooky responses to discussions on here and other places that very little is known about Kate and also peoples comments that she comes across very cold.
I agree with the comments above about the realities of bringing up children. I think that good parents do loose their temper, get exasperated and so on - and I am sure many people conveniently forget their own shortcomings when criticising others.
Stanley - do you get a graphic ont he far right against each entry - cos this seems to be the problem - non of my browsers will download it. But everything elase works so no real problem.
I don't get a graphic, but some post have the word "Gravatar" written in the upper right corner.
Continuing the article from the Correio da Manhă:
The theory of death in the apartment in Praia da Luz is maintained as the top priorities for the PJ, whose team of Portimăo has been reinforced with six experienced inspectors - four of them in the violent crimes. But off course, all the lines “remains open” in the inquiry phase, as reported by the National Director of the PJ Alípio Ribeiro.
The CM knows that the operation ‘predator’ was planned more than six months ago. It was carried out with the help of Interpol, and it has nothing to do with the Maddie case. But since 148 computers in all the country were apprehended, with 80 potential sexual predators, the search for the English girl among hundreds of videos and pictures files was a ‘logical consequence’.
The aim was to find children with almost the same age and physionomic traits similar to those of Maddie - but, among hundreds of picture, the CM knows that none of the victims was the English child vanished the 3rd of May.
Almost all the children used in the internet by the pedophile rings have their face’s picture altered digitally, according to our sources, as for the aggressors. It was the case of the alien paedophile whose face picture has been put in circulation by Interpol last week, but the authorities didn’t were able to find the genuine picture- with the help of software equipment allowing to reproduce the modified face.
Marks Bloody nonsense
A mark with bloody vestiges was supposed to have been found in the exit of the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping, reports the ‘Mail on Sunday’, but the CM confirms that is not true. The tabloid says that the partial footwear mark is believed to be from a size 5 or 6 but sources within the investigation reports that’s ‘irrelevant news’.
The PJ was in the apartment within the Ocean Club in two different phases of the investigation - first in May and next in the end of July and August - and at any moments it has been detected by the experts any mark of an adult with vestiges.
Anyway, says the newspaper that “are two evidences’ - the second one is a vestige found in the car - that justified the naming of the McCanns as official suspect. ‘The existence of the two marks, which has never been revealed until [yesterday], is apparently at the heart of renewed suspicion that the couple were involved in their daughter's disappearance.
‘New tests carried out at the Forensic Science Service laboratory in Birmingham show there is a 'moderate' chance that the blood belonged to Madeleine. But the results are inconclusive.’
It’s in the same day that the News of the World found a theory explaining why Kate was shutting that they have taken their daughter: ‘the imprint of the youngster left in the unruffled bed sheets’ and the mother notice these changes.
Babysitter in Greece
Catriona Baker was a babysitter of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz and she is one the last persons to have seen Maddie alive, the afternoon of the
Stanley and John,
Snap! I use safari on Mac too. Ha. Sometimes I get a small blue square with a ? in the centre. But that's all.
Steve, Can't give you money as I don't have a PayPal account and Stanley is right, I can't register on this as it's insisting on a zip code and state name (abrev) which I can't supply:-(. My partner has a PayPal account he uses with Ebay. Would I be able to donate using his account? I am techno phobic hence the denseness.
Babysitter in Greece
Catriona Baker was a babysitter of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz and she is one the last persons to have seen Maddie alive, the afternoon of the 3rd of May - before to be sent, in 24 hours by Mark Warner (head of the tourist resort) to a Greek resort of San Agostino’, reports the ‘Mail on Sunday’. The newspaper reports that the 20 years old girl ‘may be a key witness in the defense of the couple’, after having been interrogate by the police - but meanwhile Her present ‘location is being withheld on the request of the McCanns’
[…]
New team already working on the ground
The Paulo Rebelo team is already working at 100% in Portimăo, reports the CM, after the chief-inspector and six inspectors chosen by the new head of the investigation arrived in the Algarve. Officially, all the lines are open until the end of the inquiry - this is why the elements of the Central Division of high-tech Criminology Investigation, responsible for the operation ‘predator’, searched for pictures of Maddie in 148 computers apprehended - but it’s the experience of the chief-inspector in the homicide division, in Lisbon, that is already trying to reconstruct the puzzle of the investigation. They are already in Portimăo one inspector of the Homicide Division another working in the sexual offense, an inspector linked to the investigation of robbery - and two other experts in technical analysis. Those elements don’t substitute the present team that is already involved in the inquiry, and, with the expected arrival of the tests of the laboratory this week, they are also going to participate in the next steps of the inquiry
Software identifies modified pictures
An alien paedophile appears with children in dozens of pictures intercepted by Interpol but has never been caught. The authorities were able to identify his face - the predator was hiding his face behind an altered picture with a swirl pattern. The experts were able to produce identifiable pictures, concealing the effect of the image in a way to revert the swirl in the face. Days after, the PJ arrive with 80 portential paedophiles, in ‘preventive (action). The aim was to alert the population for the fact that, in the new (Portuguese) Penal Code, the possession of cartoons with pictures of children in sexual acts is a crime’, claimed a judicial source.
I still cannot believe the parents have done anything to little Madeleine, except of course leave her alone in their apartment.
MY heart goes out to them, it is such a devastating time and to have all these allegations etc flying around isnt helping anyone.
Lynn - your compassion is a credit to you. But don't you have any doubts?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...5/
nmaddy115.xml
"Meanwhile the McCanns were said to be "emotionally torn" to learn that Portugal's biggest ever anti-paedophile operation has failed to turn up a single lead in the hunt for their four-year-old daughter, who went missing during a family holiday on May 3."
"The McCanns were said by friends to have hoped the raids would turn up "vital leads" that could help find Madeleine and suggested the shift of the investigation had moved away from the theory that they somehow harmed her."
"A friend of the McCanns, both 39-year-old doctors from Rothley in Leicestershire, said: "They're torn between huge relief that she's not be found to be in the clutches of a paedophile ring and dismay that the investigation has hit yet another brick wall."
SAY WHAT???? But at the very least, "They continue to hope and pray that Madeleine will be found alive and well."
Hi everybody. I was gone this week-end and I just reviewed all the posts and links.
Can someone tell me the status of the following leaks? Have they been discredited or we still don't know if they are real?
1. More than 3 children in the room ?
2. Is Gerry NOT the biological father ?
3. The shoe print in the room and in the rental car?
I can't quite figure out if these leaks were invented by the tabloids or if there is some truth to them.
thank you
Re Karina
1. More than 3 children in the room?
Nothing is really proven.
2. Is Gerry NOT the biological father?
The 24Horas send an email to Clarence Mitchell with 9 questions: In one question they ask if Gerry has a certificate of DNA Paternity test.
At this moment, there is no proof that is or isn't the biological father.
3. The shoe print in the room and in the rental car?
The Correio da Manhă reports today that this information is irrelevant.
steve, i'm on a mac too and use safari. no probs with your site (but no numbers on posts and wierd little question marks in black diamonds instead of some punctuation or letters with accents).
Tried to give a small donation with paypal but it didnt work either!
Wierd how we are all on macs...great minds think alike and all that!
I get blue squares with ? marks in them on the far right. Well its a privilege to be amongst so many Mac users! I don't think my ISP server can access the gravatar site - which I gather is something to do with downloadable avatars. (...whatever!)
Has anyone any information on these two specialist policement that the PJ have called in - they are called "the cleaners". They sound cool.
Dee,
I'm begining to think that this friend of the McCanns doesn't have a way with words. Quite chilling and most unsavoury. You couldn't possibly be dismayed at the news that your daughter isn't in the hands of a paedophile ring (okay they are dismayed the investigation has hit a brick wall but in my book it's the same thing. I know we don't understand really what a person goes through when their child goes missing but surely this news would be greeted with unadulterated joy and not huge relief. They need to find a different friend/spokesperson or else this newspaper report is made up. It's all getting quite gruesome.
I am still reeling over these friend/s quotes on how the family feels, I am absolutely shocked as I thought we had kind of heard it all, but "The McCanns were said by friends to have hoped the raids would turn up "vital leads" that could help find Madeleine and suggested the shift of the investigation had moved away from the theory that they somehow harmed her."
Gerry's blog of this date keeps ringing in my mind as they felt the PJ were not thorough and not doing enough:
Day 55 - 27/06/2007
Kate and I would like to emphasise that if anyone who thinks they have information relevant to Madeleine’s abduction, then please pass this on to your local police. It does not help us to receive such information directly- we will only pass it on to the police for it to be considered in context of the overall investigation. If people are unhappy to speak to the police directly information can be given to the international crimestoppers anonymously." Why would they not welcome tips going directly to them, especially since they hired their own P.I. firm early on although they can't investigate in Portg. they were coming in from other places.
Paedophile pictures go all over the world incoming & outgoing. These creeps feed of each other. It is huge news nothing of Maddy was found on these computers...I would be jumping for joy, crying happy tears/doing the happy dance and would be the best day in a very long time. It would take me awhile to come down off that high, chances that my 4 yr. old daughter was NOT with a Ped. Go back to the statement, "They're torn between huge relief that she's not be found to be in the clutches of a paedophile ring and dismay that the investigation has hit yet another brick wall." What would the investigation has hit another brick wall refer too? Who is left having a possible abductor profite? I can only think of ransom, trade, someone wanting a child. I find it odd, maybe someone has some ideas?
Just read you comment Maggie and I agree.
Very unfortunate turn of phrase: " If she's dead, she's dead". It sounds so matter of fact. "Its not by their hand"- this really does sound like the most important thing.
And maybe, if guilty, we have just heard, voiced aloud, the thinking behind the cover up... " if she's dead, she's dead." What's done is done. Why lose everything? The dead...they are in the past, let's look out for the living.
The comment in Gerry's blog makes sense if you suppose that they know exactly what happened to Madeleine. Therefore any "leads" are:
a) a waste of time for them to look at
b) best given directly to the police to further divert them from looking at the parents role/culpability
c) a horrible reminder of what happened and would require further lies (hole digging) on their part
Hi All,
Re: wording and phrases used by G especially and 'friends and family':
I think that some people do say very unexpected things, use phrases and wording that don't seem appropriate to the occasion; usually these people would do this in the normal state of affairs anyway. IMO People behave in character whether they are grieving or going through any emotional upheaval. So although I personally have found some very strange statements (particularly by Gerry) whilst my interest has been piqued by this case I think it would be wrong to read far too much into these.
This was brought home to me recently when my (step) neice tragically died. No-one knew what to say and some people said some clumsy things but the worst culprit for 'wrong-wording' was her massively greiving Dad who managed to quietly shock a couple of people until it was pointed out that he never had been Shakespeare, why should this event change him. But because everyone else was carefully watching their words and the attention was focused on him and my sister his 'wrong-wording and poor phraseology' was suddenly more obvious.
Liz
Gerry's blog, bothered me; could they be that busy to send on leads? If you have TOTAL confidence in the police maybe that would be best, save possibly an hour or two on a lead...but if you DON'T, you would want tips for your own P.I. firm. Thanks PDG for your insights; a) stood out, b) & c) didn't occur to me and I think you nailed it.
Liz I am so very sorry about your neice. I can understand people want to comfort and they don't know what to say. I can also understand "black humour" and how someone can take offense although it can be the person's way of coping and they clearly did dearly loved the person. It can't be easy for you dealing with two tragedies either, I am so sorry for your loss.
This case doesn't seem quite the same, as Madeline is only missing.
I think Maggie is right on "They need to find a different friend/spokesperson or else this newspaper report is made up. It's all getting quite gruesome." The words being publicly made seem aimed at self-preservation of the living and forgetting the little girl lost, maybe that's the difference here?
Dee,
Thanks for your concern and kind words. It's still a bit unreal tbh. She was only 17 and accepted a lift from a driver who'd been drinking so it's going to court, happened on 21st Sept just gone and we buried her a week later.
Whole (huge extended) family still in bits... mpb (my point being)you never know what you're going to say, how you're going to act until some huge emotional trauma comes banging your door down and you find you haven't got the right words, there is no script. And yet everyone is in tenterhooks as to how to behave and talk apart from those who are so consumed by it all not to care.
I know this case is nowhere similar but I do think that any severe emotional stress draws from the same bank within us and let's face it whatever happened to M they (K & G)don't have their daughter any more. The end point is the same even if the journey there was different and after all this time (& yes I do know of the rare miraculous return of children in abduction cases and abduction is still a possibility!) I think it's sadly highly doubtful M is alive.
You are quite right it is possible that G is giving us clues of his actual knowledge of exactly what happened but it's also possible that he is trying to come to terms with everything so far and future ramifications and finally absorbing the fact that he failed in his parental responsibilities.
As ever I'm open to all the strange possibilites... it's a real baffler.
Liz
I'm (again, like there's any real surprise here) not the least bit off-put or upset or shocked by their reaction.
To innocent parents looking for any hope they can find that their daughter is still alive, her picture being found would have been both a blessing and a curse. The blessing would have been having tangible proof that she might still be alive; the curse, of course, would be knowing what she was living through.
Of course they don't *want* her to be in the hands of a pedophile. Of course they don't want her to be harmed in any way. But if the only alternative to her being injured is her being dead, of *course* they're going to hope for the lesser of the two evils.
Just testing
http://www.thumbsnap.com/v/a6RDuYjT.jpg
0
how do you upload a photo?
Just one comment, DC: Do you really perceive the "lesser of two evils" to be death - rather than abuse by a pedophile for the past 5 months???
I'm sorry to have to physically write this, but I would like to think that as a parent of girls, the "lesser of two evils" to me would actually mean death - and I find that very hard to even type - rather than the alternative of having one of my beautiful, young, carefree, innocent daughters being repeatedly abused for hours, days, MONTHS, at a time...
The thought to me is literally nauseating because if I had to make a choice in the latter scenario - it would be a difficult one - but both my husband and I would agree that we would rather her be in the presence of God and the Angels than have her life completely shattered and ruined and tattered and twisted into an intangilble mess psychologically... left to make the best of whatever scraps of the life intended to her...
I'm sorry, but I guess I may be a more callous woman than I ever imagined - because to me, the "lesser of two evils" would be death, as far as this case is concerned.
Bottom line, I can honestly say that I would offer myself for scrutiny, investigation, whatever - the good, bad, and ugly - to get my child back. Even if it meant that I looked a fool, callous, negligent, stupid, narcissistic, egotistical, horny... WHATEVER - so what? I'd cop to it - just help me find my daughter.
I have not seen that sentiment with the McCs - and I doubt I ever will. They are cut from a different cloth than me, and I accept that. But, in the final analysis, K&G cannot postulate that their actions have been anything but self-preservation.
Liz, I personally thank you for your comment about your niece. I cannot imagine what your sister and brother in law must be going through - but I applaud your strength in sharing that with us.
And I know what you mean about people reacting in a stressful/chaotic/traumatic situation in relation to how their personalities are in everyday life.
My dear husband, whom I love more than life itself, is the most stoic, quiet, subdued person I know. And I have no doubt that he and I would react quite differently to basically any situation...
That is why I feel it is somewhat important to mention that he finds the McCanns' reactions to be "off", even without my commentary.
Yeah, yeah, this is all speculation. But what else do we have at this juncture???
Finally, a prayer from the depths of my soul: Please, GOD, and all that is Holy, do not let this case slip between the cracks like JonBenet and many others. Madeleine deserves more than this.
re: case slipping through the cracks. That is my fear too. However I think this new guy is being very proactive, taking the case back to basics. And I think Richard Branson's latest comments will further motivate the portuguese authorities to find out what happened...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...5/
nmaddy115.xml
This case must be costing them an absolute fortune and Portugal is one of the poorer European countries.
I don't think you are wicked to think that death is the lesser of 2 evils, Emma, my mum said the exact same thing. I'm not sure if I personally would prefer my child to be dead than sexually abused. I think I'd want ANY possibility that my child was alive tbh even if the child has suffered greatly. But maybe that is almost a form of selfishness on my part. But ultimately who knows how one would feel ...
'If she is dead then she is dead but not by their hand,' was said by their PR Clarence Mitchell! Well, it's disturbingly clear what his priorities are.
Hi everyone, great to see Steve got the new thread up, I checked everyday. Have you all seen this one?
http://s215.photobucket.com/
albu...rent=church.flv
I am struck by the scruffy look of the church and restaurant grounds and was thinking that someone in a panic over a death they wished to cover up, someone who had been to the church would immediately remember the areas all around town that were in such a state, including roads with ditches dug around them.
Re Gerry and whether he is the dad or not...and Kate and the IVF procedures and the suffering thru them and her previous doubts as to whether she would ever be a mother...One may make a case for Madeleine as a 'symptomatic child', ie a child who carries the brunt of all that is wrong with the marriage (and this happens in the best of marriages), a child who symbolizes subconsciously all that is troubling her parents about their union. This may help explain why they would cover up the accidental death of THIS child in particular, why they may have snapped and gone to a place we can't fathom, why they went to We have to save our careers, the twins, our good life. There must be a reason to go to that place in their thoughts...so if Maddie was the one who pushed the buttons most often of Kate's patience, then she reminds Kate of how patient she had to be just to have this child, Maddie reminds her of all the stress and arguments and pain leading up to, finally, a pregnancy that came to fruition.
Because she wasn't his, and bc she is the symptomatic child, Gerry would find it easier to detach and go quickly thru whatever actions it takes to rid them of the body of she who symbolized All that is Wrong Between Them. See how that works?
After Maddie was born, Kate relaxed and conceived the twins naturally - very possible, as it has happened many other times in cases of IVF and adoption.
Re the sniffer dogs, I think Karina said they were 'unreliable'. Not true, and in 'good' cases only a window of about an hour and a half is needed from the time of death. The McCanns are smart (and it belies their concern for their freedom imo) to get the atty who has won a case in which such dogs were used tho it wasnt Eddie and the female, I have forgotten her name just now. They are smart to have gotten that atty bc they know these dogs, indeed these 2 dogs, are very good at their work. We are pretty certain that Kate was shown a video of these dogs alerting to her and the car et al., we are pretty sure of this cause it came from Aunt Philomena. This is supposedly the video Kate reacted to by failing to answer the rest of the questions, by failing to confess to any crime. Then the McCanns flew to England and hired that atty. Seems to me that the dogs are quite reliable indeed!
Pdg - Richard Branson said:
""Imagine your child gets stolen from you, you go through all the hell that comes with that, then when the Portuguese police cannot find the person who has stolen it they (sources) start placing stories in the press, each one of which is shown to be unfounded a week or two later but by then they have spread around the world,""
it is perfectly possible that;
1) she wasn't stolen from them
2) the leaked stories were correct
3) that they haven't been disproved
Richard Branson doesn't know any more than we do. I am fascinated by what motives a man like him to donate this money (and I suppose it is a very small amount to him) to defend people who may yet turn out to be guilty. In fact I am fascinated by the people on here who seem totally convinced of their innocence. I don't understand how anyone can be so sure. Do they still believe that the PJ are trying to frame the McCanns? And if they don't believe this then how do you explain the McCanns behaviour?
I hope that the PJ completely ignores all this press nonsense - and still say that if the McCanns genuinely want to help their daughter they should return to Portugal and answer those questions which they refused to answer before - and with fresh forensics there may be more now. They could also sack all their incredibly expensive lawyers and use the money to search.
Hi Chanel!
Where did you get the info that the twins were conceived naturally? I've only read that they were also conceived by IVF.
Re sniffer dogs - someone (I think Dee?) posted a research on the previous thread here, which came up with the result that cadaver dogs were 55-95% of the time accurate.
Hi Martina, I have no such factual info on the twins, I was doing a supposition. Just like with the rest of my comment, and most all here, lol, we just keep supposing! But there have been cases of women who used IVF and who adopted who got pregnant 'naturally' the time after that. I suppose it could have been the case with Kate. The wording of the first People magazine article on the McCanns and the twins being born also was unclear and I had the feeling this was possibly the case.
As to the canine accuracy, I read the source material differently I guess, it seemed highly favorable for Eddie and Keela, maybe that is her name - ?
But I am going to keep looking...meantime I found this wonderfully macabre bit on a cadaver dog, holy moley!
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/sc...ip/7933&
invol=1
24Horas Today:
Maddie’s team increased with Homicide Brigade
PJ in Force in the Algarve
The Judicial Police (PJ) will recheck all the steps of inquiry in the case of Madeleine McCann who vanished the 3rd of May in Praia da Luz, in Portimăo, Algarve, reports the 24Horas within judicial sources. Paulo Rebelo, the new head of the case, will also proceed to the replacement of the team to try to obtain ‘a new vision of the case’, told a high PJ officer.
‘After months and months of work in a case, it’s natural that the persons are tired and only concentrated in a vision of facts. The aim of the renewal of the team is to provide new lines and new trails of inquiry.
The task, has admitted the same source, is not easy: ‘For the moment, we will concentrate our efforts on detailed examination of all the elements of proof already collected, and the tests of the laboratory of Birmingham are still not there, in their totality, in our possession. We have the absolute conviction that Maddie has suffered an accident in the apartment of the Ocean Club, but conclusive evidences are missing, evidences that may appear at any moment.’
‘It’s a very meticulous work. The new team will continue to pursue all the lines of inquiry: First, the sequestration, next the sexual predator, the accident pure and simple, the occultation of the body, and finally the eventual crime committed by the present suspects. Everything would be passed into the fine comb’, revealed another source within the inquiries.
Yesterday, no diligences were done on the ground by elements of the PJ.
It should be done this week. The team of the investigation in the disappearance of Maddie will be strengthening none only with elements of the PJ homicide Brigade of Lisbon, but also with officers from the laboratory of scientific police.
The theory of the accident and occultation of the body continues to be more consistent theory in the PJ investigations.
Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages...ge_id=1770&
ct=5
"Portuguese police sources allege forensic test results show "bodily fluid" from a corpse in the boot of the Renault Scenic rented by Kate and Gerry McCann 25 days after Madeleine went missing.
Sources in the Policia Judiciaria are also claiming that the evidence was found on the underside of a carpet, indicating that a body was deliberately hidden there."
and the response form the McCanns?
"The Portuguese police are conducting a long-planned act of revenge for British newspapers showing disrespect at the start of the investigation.
"Police believe the criticism was inspired by the McCanns and these smears are an attempt to fight back."
So they really do believe that the PJ are trying to frame them out of spite for the press battle by the tabloids.
The article seems to suggest that the PJ are still waiting for the DNA test results - is this believable? can these tests really take this long?
John, I think that the forensics are taking so long because they want to get it just right or the PJ could have an indication of what they will reveal but the suspects should also have this. I find it hard to believe that the PJ would frame them - very difficult given that the eyes of the world are watching this case.
Chanel,
That is a good post re the dogs. They certainly did the job required of them and no one was left in any doubt. I too wondered whether the twins were conceived naturally and this does often happen, I've not seen any evidence to suggest that they too are IVF conceived. Re the video of the church, PDL is very built up! Every building seems to be overlooking.
Correio da Manhă:
Computer snatched
Application: The judge will decide if it should be analyzed
The Judicial Police snatched recently a computer that has been rented in Portugal by Gerry McCann. A forensic analysis would be performed to the computer, after the reviewing of the case by an instruction judge.
The authorities believe that’s necessary to open new lines of investigation to consolidate the theory that the parents are involved in the disappearance of their daughter. They would try to check the files and the history of that laptop, and to detect for example the email flux and also the information of the sites that Gerry McCann has consulted in the last months when he was in Portugal.
An analysis of the computer must be authorized by a judge because a non-open email is similar, in judicial terms, to a closed letter. The Portuguese Penal Procedure Code says that the lecture of an email must be authorized, and also directed by a judicial magistrate for the subject due to invasion of privacy, reports the CM.
Information collected by the CM reports that’s the first time this kind of diligence is performed by the authorities to obtain information concerning the emails of the McCanns. On the contrary to what has been vehemently reported by some Portuguese newspapers, information never verified and furthermore the telephone of the McCanns has never been bugged.
Emma -
I don't think you're cruel or callous at all. When my oldest son was first born, my neighbor told me, when she was facing the possibility of losing her house, that she would take her children into a cardboard box in a ditch with her, as long as they were with her. At the time, I thought that was the most incredibly selfish thing I'd ever heard, and told her as much. To me, then, it was a much more "motherly" thing to do to find someone who could give my son a decent life, with food and clothes and shelter, than to damn him to a life of poverty just to keep him with me.
As the years have gone by, though, that's changed, and if I were in her situation now, I don't know what I'd do. I know that the thought of not having my children in my arms every night terrifies me like nothing else and I don't know that I'd be strong enough, now, to give them away.
To me, where there's life, there's hope. Abuse can be survived, fragile emotions and psychological problems can be remedied. It may take years, it may take the rest of her life, but it's possible. But death is absolute. If she's alive, then everything else is fixable; if she's dead, it's over.
I agree DC.
Does anyone give a damn what kate looks like?
Kate McCann: ‘If I weighed another two stone, had a bigger bosom and looked more maternal, people would be more sympathetic’
from:
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/l...00252-19959495/
Her mother says:
"She does feel persecuted, not by the general public who have been extremely supportive, but by some sections of the media, and I just feel it’s important I let people know she is not this person who is in control all the time."
(Actually the UK press have been more or less totally supportive - its people who have asked questions.)
Susan (Kate's mum) says: “I don’t go onto the internet, but I know some people will get pleasure from picking up on, and discussing, the negative side of things – however, it’s hard enough for us to read that people are convinced Madeleine is dead.”
(She's heard about the mirror forums then!)
They also address (and deny) all the recent rumours - and the sedation thing.
I have sympathy with her parents who are clearly suffering and come across as quite private people. But I still want them to cut out all the nonsense and address the PJ questions!!! (I know this is boring but it is the point).
Madeline's GrandMother has also confirmed that the McCanns use to give Calpol to their children:
They don't like taking tablets themselves and the only thing they have ever given their children, if they were teething or had a temperature, is Calpol. They didn't give them anything that night.
"Does anyone give a damn what kate looks like?"
John, we had (or have) posters here who commented on just that: Kate's looks. And thinking themselves awfully clever when doing so.
I think it's as superficial as you can get, but many find it oh so important and comment-worthy, or rather, important enough to condemn someone and accuse her of murder.
Yes, John, many people give too much of a damn. And it's right her mother speaks up and tries to protect her.
Daily Mail and Sun so far the only ones talking about body fluids form a corpse - wait until you believe it.
Oh...If they do have body fluids from a decomposing body in the Renault Scenic, then I'll have to say the McCanns are involved. I don't even need DNA results.
But again, we can't trust anything we read in the tabloids.
Does anyone know if O'Brien had a rental car on May 3rd? If the McCanns were involved, I think a friend helped them with the body and O'Brien may well be the one.
What do you think?
To JohnUK
You said "In fact I am fascinated by the people on here who seem totally convinced of their innocence. I don't understand how anyone can be so sure."
I don't see anybody here who is TOTALLY convinced of the McCanns' innocence BUT I do see a lot of posters who are TOTALLY convinced of their involvement in Madeleine's disappearance. "I" don't understand how anyone can be so sure.
Karina:
That's the point I was trying to make. None of us know for sure and I don't understand how people can think they are so sure (either way). But in particular their supporters do this without refering to any facts or conclusions from them. This includes our mate Richard Branson.
Martina:
I have seen a lot of criticism of the McCanns actions, behaviour, body language and the words they use. But I haven't seen anything about how thin, blonde she is or the size of her bosom. Perhaps I've missed this (its probably on the darker reaches of the mirror forum I suppose).
They (or their 'sources') are still tryiing to say that the PJ are trying to frame them because of bitterness over the UK press attacks on them. Do you really believe this? It is their responsibility as parents, EU citizens and human beings to help the police with their investigations into M's disappearance. I just want them to do this - then we will start to get to the truth.
I have this funny feeling that the claim the PJ found body fluids in the rental car will be taken back again, just like the alleged "DNA with a very close match to M's profile". It turns out they are not so sure anymore about that.
I'm also not clear on whether the doors to the appartment were closed or open on 3 May. Lots of confusing and contradictory statements on this topic too. Did they leave the door unlocked yes or no?
Could anyone gove me the latest on that?
Re Karina
If they do have body fluids from a decomposing body in the Renault Scenic, then I'll have to say the McCanns are involved. I don't even need DNA results.
Body fluids in the trunk only proves that a body has been carried out in that car. That doesnt prove it's the body of Maddie, it could be another dead body. It's the same problem with the dogs. That's why the DNA tests are important to demonstrate that it was Maddie's body.
I think people feel 'so sure' because it's been written in the papers that the PJ is convinced that she died in the apartment.
John, Karina,
I'd have to agree with you. As much as I empathise with all of M's family her mum and dad have not done her justice by not answering those questions and by being less than helpful to the investigation from the outset. Not least hightailing it back to Britain as soon as things weren't quite going their way.
John re: what's taking so long with the DNA: I was reading one of the only truly useful threads on the Mir. Forum yesterday that just focuses on DNA. Someone asked the same question from the professionsl guy in the field that started the thread. The answer is quite a long one that goes into the technical details of keeping samples contamination free, re-running tests for accuracy and change, developing cultures etc. the upshot is that it's not unusual particularly where the evidence could be used to back up a prosecution where a crime could have been comitted.
Liz
Karina, i have been going on and on about Dr O'B but without a lot of reaction. As for John and Martina as I don't know Kate McCann and as there appears to be not a lot found out about her, I can ONLY judge her by the way she looks. What else is there?
Personally her comment holds no sway with me. I think she looks like a hard faced bitch. However if she put on two stone and had a larger bosom, I would have to say she looked like a chubby, big chested, hard faced bitch.
Karina: you are right - no one can be sure either way.
I suppose the point is that if you look at their behaviour then I think you must have at least some doubts about their judgement and motivation. So then, how can anyone be certain that they are not involved? They can't. Even Richard Branson - and I would be genuinely interested to understand why he believes in their innocence - I mean factually, rationally and logically - to such a degree that he is prepared to pay for their lawyers.
I don't care what Kate looks like and I have consistently said that you can't read anything into the words they choose to use or their body language (or rather nothing definite). But really do you think that the issue is about her at all? They have a civic duty to assist the authorities (the PJ in this case) and forget about their images and how it looks to people. How can the PJ proceed unless they get the full cooperation of not only the McCanns and also the Tapas 7? the McCanns have sponsors and donations while the police are spending Portuguese tax payers money.
The suggestion that all this can be explained by some kind of stitch up attempt by the PJ is rubbish. And once you take that away then you are left with only one course of action - go back to Portugal and answer the 40+ questions. Thats it.
PS I think I'm loosing my short term memory because I am repeating myself. This case has driven me to dementia.
Stanley:
"Personally her comment holds no sway with me. I think she looks like a hard faced bitch. However if she put on two stone and had a larger bosom, I would have to say she looked like a chubby, big chested, hard faced bitch."
Will you please stop sitting on the fence and make your mind up!
Jose,
Yes, I know that DNA is important if they go to court.
I was thinking just for myself. If it is proved that the body fluids in the car come from a decomposed body, then I'll definitely think that the McCanns are involved but I know what you're saying about proving that it comes from Madeleine's body.
And John, if you say one more thing about the 40 questions, I'll have you kicked out of this thread
Karina, seeing how you don't like John mentioning the 40 questions, I'll ask, why did Kate (we will do everything to cooperate with the PJ to get M back) McCann refuse to answer questions put to her (please note I do not quote a number, but I have heard it was more than 39) by the very people who are trying to find out what happened to her daughter.
John I am still very open minded about this case in that I am not sure if I would restore the death penalty for those who are eventually found responsible for M's disappearance whoever that may be. Anyone else feel like that?
Innocent until proven guilty - her actions are unusual but so is this situation - she isnt rational but who would be in this situation.
God bless Madeleine, whatever has happened she is still "lost"
As a parent I wouldnt refuse to (which i believe is the case) that answering the questions MAY mean you werent allowed out of the country as would I still answer them??? NOT sure i would as i would want to be home safe with my other children and family BUT I would because i would do anything to find my daughter ARGHHHHHHHH i would be torn so i cannot say what i would do A VERY hard decision to make so i would be withdraw, confused too
Stanley, I don't understand your last comment at all?
Liz
Their lawyers were present when they were interviewed and they must have advised them not to answer those questions. Without knowing what these questions were about how can we say it was right or wrong not to answer them? Maybe they were the wrong questions. If someone suspects you of something you haven't done they will ask questions reflecting this and you can not possibly answer them. I have experienced this in arguments. You answer and will be accused of lying, you don't answer and will be accused of being secretive and therefore guilty.
I think you're making too much out of it, John.
And regarding Kates looks, yes, here too people were saying things like, she was lucky to get a man at all, etc.
G has updated his blog:
www.findmadeleine.com
In it he says that contrary to popular belief they do believe M is probably dead. But that they still have to hope that she is still alive.
(Words to that effect)
Sorry the words he used was 'possibly dead' not 'probably' and there's a bit difference obviosly.
Liz
The Telegraph is repeating Gerry's words in their latest article.
It also says they continue going to counselling. Wouldn't a trained counsellor know or at least have suspicions if they were living such a big lie?
Poster campaign launched
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_ne...ews/
7047579.stm
I pity them, its just tragic.
@Liz
He does say probably dead - just so devastating to admit it isnt it - i think deep down we all want her home and want to give her a big hug, so upsetting to think shes no longer with us.
I agree the parents should answer the questions no matter how hard they are. Yes they will be asked trick questions.
Since stranger abduction is so rare, these lawyers probably have no experience with that area. It is well known the parents are suspected first, so they deal with it or as they have chosen; self-preservation. But yet we are expected to sympathize about the public backlash and "Kate it's not about your lack of weight, honey."
Martina with all due respect, I do not ever remember reading on this site "here too people were saying things like, she was lucky to get a man at all, etc." Stanley was making a joke that it makes no difference to him what she looks like.
Lynn, I think thats, what its all about "Innocent until proven guilty " and this is exactly what is killing me.
For my personal opinon there are too many coincidences (according to the information we got): bloody footprints in their appt., body fluids in their rental car, differing testimonials by the T9. How often does one transport a dead body in a rental car? And how much blood needs to be on a floor till it shows parts of your footprint? And all that happened just like that in the MC surrounding?! Hhmmm.
In the end I believe that all those coincidences made the G+K suspects to the PJ. Otherwise they wouldnt have put their worldwide reputation on the line. Anyways, I am still thinking about motives and the only thing that sounds acceptabel to me is the accident version. Couldnt it be possible that they wanted to go out and M was protesting and crying?! Maybe they wanted to calm her, either with brutality (wich would explain the "blood") or with sedatives. Or both.
Sorry, for all the "maybes" but I cant stop thinking about May 3rd and what might have happened based on the theory that G+K are involved.
Some days ago I watched a documentation on German television about diffrent kinds of psychosis. They introduced a rare psychiatric syndrome called "Folie ŕ deux" - which means "madness shared by two". Since I am not a Psychiatrist its hard for me to put it in my own words. So if you are interested, have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fol...ki/
Folie_ŕ_deux
I found it quite interesting and it helped me to understand that people can do things without having the certainty what they have done.
I dont want to bore you, I just needed to share my thoughts again...
Dee, Stanley wrote above
"As a man I found it remarkable that K had found 1 member of my gender prepared to put his body in harms way"
which seems to imply her physical appearance being 'harmful'. I found the remark quite tasteless.
"For my personal opinon there are too many coincidences (according to the information we got): bloody footprints in their appt., body fluids in their rental car, differing testimonials by the T9. How often does one transport a dead body in a rental car? And how much blood needs to be on a floor till it shows parts of your footprint? And all that happened just like that in the MC surrounding?! Hhmmm."
Debbie, but what are the sources for this? Tabloids!
I have come to a point where I don't even click on articles with headlines that promise new 'evidence' anymore. It's just all rubbish amd will probably tomorrow be contradicted or forgotten. As long as the PJ is not saying or explaining or doing something that shows a clear (or clearer) picture I will not take these reports very seriously.
Nobody should.
I didn't say it was a tasteful joke mind you (shame Stanley)! An interesting one I heard was "everyone woman wants Kate's eye creme, because it hides the bags and redness so well from all signs of crying." We are all on pin and needles waiting for new information.
Debbie, just to let you know that link didn't work.
As for Stanley's remark IMO he's articulating his own dislike of K, and he's entitled to his own opinion.
From what I've seen of both K & G I don't care for them and I do believe that they have narcissistic tendancies, particularly G, but that doesn't stop me empathising with the tragedy that has unfolded in their lives - whatever actually happened.
Liz
Martina & Lizbee. I shall answer both of you with two words Myra Hindley. To you lizbee there is no greater case for bringing back the death penalty, and to you Martina, yes Myra Hindley's physical appearance was not just "harmful" it was downright bloody evil!
The situation with jailing child killers for life rather than executing them, is shown to be even more flawed by Ian Huntley (the Soham killer) who recently attemted suicide, yet again, and was yet again restored to health. In whose interest was this?
Stanley,
I can't with agree with the death penalty. I have a feeling though that you wouldn't be interested in why so I havn't bothered posting my opinions on this.
Liz
I agree with John that the refusal of K to answer the 40 questions back in Portugal was a huge red flag. If she were completely innocent, she would not have hesitated to answer any and all questions posed to her. Yet she balked and shut down and refused to answer any more questions after viewing the videotape of the sniffer dogs going crazy around the rental car. Makes you go hmmmmmm.
And the fact that K&G refused to take a polygraph is another reason to question their innocence. Anyone who is innocent would jump at the opportunity to take a polygraph,knowing that there is no risk to do so. Only a guilty person fears such a test. K&G obviously have a lot to hide and I am sickened by the fact that they may have concocted the whole abduction scenario to deflect attention and suspicion away from them, instead of simply admitting that a tragic and unfortunate accident took place that day in their apartment.
And what of the thousands of dollars raised by generous well wishers for the "Find Maddie" find? Does anybody know what is happening to that money? It should be seized and held in trust until this case is solved. I sincerely hope that the McCanns keep their fingers out of that money: I'd hate to think they were using it for their defence.
To be contraversial for a minute - with respect to Stanley bringing up the death penalty - if it was an accident (then obviously no death penalty) - also, I'm not even sure I can see a case for prison for Kate. What would it achieve? Two motherless toddlers? If Kate had an accident and Gerry did the cover up then maybe he should go to prison for perverting the course of justice/ concealing a crime.
The posting attributed to "Anonymous" (2 above this one) was mine. For some reason my name didn't get transferred.
Lizbee: and I believe the earth is flat but I won't bother telling you why as I know you would not be interested, and oh yes incidentally because I know I am wrong. You are right though I am not interested in your views on the death penalty, however I would be interested to hear the views of Holly & Jessica's parents who go through hell every time this little piece of excrement tries unsuccessfully to do to himself what the state should have done years ago. I would also like to hear the views of the parents of Hindley and Bradey's victims. These are the people whose opinions really matter.
On Nancy Grace tonight at the very beginning of the show Nancy said paraphrasing "Memo to Mommy; don't worry about what people say about your looks, worry about the bloody footprint & DNA evidence." Later they did a small segment they couldn't believe and had never heard a mother of an abducted child claim or go on that they were the victim. A lawyer said, "these people are not being managed well," the psychologist said, "it's all about her, I don't like that she won't look and talk to the camera." They all made comments they can't believe how the theories keep changing and it will be a big problem if this ever goes to court.
Dee
"They all made comments they can't believe how the theories keep changing and it will be a big problem if this ever goes to court."
I just watched the Nancy Grace show after I saw your post. When the attorney referred to the changing theories, they were talking about the PJ.
I thought I'd clarify that point.
Nancy said: "when we finally, if we ever get to a trial of somebody, all of these theories that have been made public are going to come out at trial and cast big suspicion on the police case."
Answer: "The defense attorneys will have a ball with this, Nancy. Because of all the different theories, they`ve now changed investigators."
Here is part of the actual transcript:
"GRACE: Ed Miller, I have to tell you, the police have changed their theories so many times, I`ve got a severe problem with anything they come up with.
And, Mike Brooks, the bottom line is, when we finally, if we ever get to a trial of somebody, all of these theories that have been made public are going to come out at trial and cast big suspicion on the police case.
BROOKS: The defense attorneys will have a ball with this, Nancy. Because of all the different theories, they`ve now changed investigators. And remember right back in the beginning, there was a suspect. Whatever happened to him, the guy that lived right there near the place? "
By the way, I am not a big fan of Nancy Grace. She will stop at nothing to get her ratings up.
24Horas Today:
New results from Birmingham sustains the crime theory
Corpse was in the car
The evidences -that could prove that Madeleine was transported already dead in the Renault Scénic rented by the McCann- are the bodily fluids of a corpse discovered in the trunk of the car, revealed the forensic tests from Birmingham.
The 24Horas reports within a source from the Forensic Science Service, that the bodily fluids were discovered under a carpet of the car, which indicates that a body had been deliberately hidden there. Remember; that in the trunk of the car there were discovered other vestiges, such as blood and hair, that were sent to Birmingham. The PJ has been informed of the corpse evidence by an email sent by the FSS of Birmingham, reports the 24Horas within police sources. To have the certainty that the corpse was the Maddie corpse, the results of the DNA tests done to the fluids are necessary. These results will be compared to other DNA tests done with blood and saliva samples and will only arrive today, according to a source from the PJ
The PJ is reconstructing, minute by minute, the paths of Kate McCann in the night of the disappearance of Maddie.
The team composed with 6 inspectors from Lisbon is working on that reconstruction.[...]Rebelo has bring to the Algarve: two inspectors of the Homicide Brigade, two inspectors of Sexual Crimes, one information analyst, and a supervisor. The24Horas has reported within a judicial source that the previous elements of the PJ of Portimăo that worked in the case will be put aside.
But the PJ knows that the main line of investigation followed by the inspectors of Portimăo, the accidental death, is the strongest theory. And Kate McCann is put in the center of that theory, since she was the person to be alone in the Maddie’s room, living this moment, and then informed Gerry of the happening when he was dining at the Tapas restaurant.
According to that theory that circulates in the PJ, the toddler’s body has been hidden before the alert of her disappearance.The Judicial knows, even without any clinical report of the child, that Maddie “was hyperactive” and a “sleep-late” person, said a PJ source. In other words, the toddler could only be under the effects of sedatives, an also her twin siblings, believe the PJ as the 24Horas has already reported
But the PJ still can’t explain where the body of Maddie has been hidden during almost a month. Since the McCanns rent the car 25 days after the disappearance of the toddler, without conservation, the car would be filled with the nauseating odor of the corpse.
I can't believe that the death penalty debate has reached this forum. And I thought that we were all civilized human beings!
I'm just glad that I live in a country (Canada) where the death penalty has long been abolished. As it should be everywhere in the world.
If K&G are guilty, they're guilty of covering up an accidental death and obstructing justice. None of these things would or should warrant the death penalty. They are not cold blooded killers.
Billie said: "I'm just glad that I live in a country (Canada) where the death penalty has long been abolished. As it should be everywhere in the world"
If it turns out that poor wee M has been abducted by a paedophile, used and then murdered, please do me a favour and lock up the perpetrator in your wonderfully civilised country. That is what we have done here for 40 years and it does not work.
Better still Billie you go visit every month, now that would be stomach churning, so why ask prison warders to do it every day?
Sharon,
You asked whether or not the doors were locked. I too have been wondering about this. My summary.
10.05pm 3 May in PDL Kate McCann comes into the Tapas Bar screaming 'They've taken her'. Forty minutes later the police arrived. The McCanns told the police that the abductor had taken Madeleine and went out the bedroom window as there were signs of a break in from there. When the windows were examined it was found that this wasn't the case. Then the police were told that the patio windows were unlocked, and that regular checks were made throughout the hour and a half/one hour that the couples
were at the Tapas Bar.
Contradictions
The PR man for Mark Warner told a newspaper that at first the parents thought Madeleine had wandered off. BUT Kate herself told Radio 4 Woman's Hour that she knew instantly that Madeleine hadn't - a claim later bolstered by a friend saying Kate found the shape of her daughter in the bed.
Gerry said he saw the door to the bedroom open which would indicate the intruder came in through the balcony doors (visible from the Bar) but later said the intruder was already in the apartment. He didn't check the place but went back to the bar, stopping to chat to Jeremy Wilkins.
I will end with this. When Dr Shipman was arrested for the murder of a patient many of his other patients said they couldn't believe it. They insisted he was innocent.
Jose, reading the translation from 24horas, it seems to suggest that maddie was found dead when Kate did her check on the children and that Kate quickly hid the body and did the alert... which would explain how they were able to go to dinner normally and gerry was able to have a normal chat with Jeremy Wilkins. But it wouldn't give the 1 1/2 hours necessary for the dogs to smell the death scent. Unless the body was hidden in the apartment (suitcase? chest of drawers?)
I tend to agree, Stanley, that reviving Ian Huntley after a suicide attempt does seem a waste of time, but legally they are obliged to do it.Unfortunately I doubt that Ian Huntley tried to kill himself due to remorse but more likely self-pity. Perhaps incarceration is a worse punishment than death? I don't agree with the death penalty, but if anyone hurt my child, I would be murderous. The law represents ourselves at our most noble, at our fairest, at our most objective rather than natural justice.
Well said pdg. I too would be murderous in that situation that's why I am glad the law is there to prevent further harm and represent us at our most just.
Liz
Re pdg , "reading the translation from 24horas, it seems to suggest that maddie was found dead when Kate did her check on the children and that Kate quickly hid the body and did the alert... which would explain how they were able to go to dinner normally and gerry was able to have a normal chat with Jeremy Wilkins."
If you do the hypothesis that Maddie was discovered dead at 22h by Kate and the McCanns didn’t know what happen during the dinner, then the death could have happen at 20h30 and it matches the 1 hour 1/2 criterion. At that moment, 20h30, the McCanns were at the Tapas Restaurant and at that time Maddie wasn’t any longer in the world of the living.
You don’t need to suppose in that theory that they hid the body in the apartment after the alert of Kate to match the 1 hour 1/2 criterion. You just have to suppose that Gerry did NOT see Maddie alive at 21h15.
It would be a very high risk for them to leave the body in the apartment after having altered the scene of crime to make plausible abduction and calling for the police.
A new supicious person has turned up acc to the Daily Express today.
"Investigators are now probing a sighting of a blonde-haired woman seen acting suspiciously outside the holiday apartment from where Madeleine disappeared on May 3.
A British woman who owns a local restaurant told police she spotted the suspect – dressed in a light-coloured trench coat – peering into the window of Madeleine’s bedroom shortly before 10pm that night.
The witness was driving her car past the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz when she saw the woman – who turned away after being caught in her headlights.
The restaurant owner gave a detailed statement to Portuguese detectives. It is understood the sighting was dismissed by investigators who were convinced Madeleine had not been abducted and had died inside the apartment.
But police are set to look into it again as the investigation gains new intensity."
The article also outlines the possibility that Maddie was snatched by a pedophile ring linked to Russia.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/v...addy-Mafia-
fear
In Portugal, searches in and around the Barragem da Bravura reservoir have started.
Re pdg
There is also the possibility that Maddie died at 20h30 and was moved just before 22h by a third person.
jose: good point. so the cover-up may be that Gerry did not visually check the kids at 21.05, merely listened at the door...
My brother and his wife were absolutely neurotic about getting enough sleep and would do anything not to risk waking their kids..If Madeleine was difficult to get to sleep, maybe they wouldn't open the door and look...
And I agree that Russell O'brien would be the obvious suspect if a 3rd person were involved. I assume he has been interviewed in depth by the pj.
"I assume he has been interviewed in depth by the pj."
Actually, I don't think so. We would have heard about it if he was being questioned for longer hours than others. Don't you think?
But he's also my 'favourite' suspect.
I also think that Kates comments are designed to elicit sympathy from the people. I personally think she is attractive and well turned out, albeit very thin. I htought from the tone of Nancy grace that she waw belittling Kate. I believe when the evidence comes out it will speak for itself, although without a body the subterfuge may continue.
Billie - with regards to the death penalty it is a shame we dont have it anymore - once there is evidence that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty of such a terrible crime then why should we keep them alive, they are a waste of fresh air. A person was found guilty in the uk recently of raping a 13 week old baby - I still am unable to justify his presence on earth as I am with Ian Huntley, Christopher Paul Neil(the pedo whose picture Interpol released)I think there is a HUGE argument for the re-introduction of the death penalty.
Maggie,
Thank you for the update on the locked doors. If the parents' first thought was that M. wandered off, it proves they left the door open. It's of course very strange that G. later stated he had the feeling there was somebody in the appartment but that he did not open the bedroom door to properly check on his kids.
Did M. and the twins sleep in the same room?
If M. died accidentally that night and G&K wanted to hide the body, would it not have made more sense to raise the alarm at a later stage? Say, at around midnight. That way they would have had more time to hide the body and plan what to do next. If K. only found out that M. died at 22:00 hrs when she checked, why would she have alerted the T9 immediately if she wanted to cover it up?
Yes, Sharon, M and the twins slept in the same room.
Maybe the inconsistencies of the Tapas9 as well as Gerry not looking in the room even with a funny feeling that someone is there might be all due to them being a bit tipsy and therefore having a clouded judgement.
Doesn't make any sense. Why would he even leave the table to check the apartment but not look into the bedroom? Why bother checking if you're not going to check?
Indeed. I remember some newspaper articles reporting that they shared about 14 bottles of wine that evening (which still seems OK for 9 people on holiday...).
So the kids all slept in the same room. Perhaps Maddy was woken up by one of the twins and wandered off to look for her parents for help. This would of course mean the appartment door had to be left unlocked. She could very well have been taken by a stranger then. Some friends of mine once left their front door unlocked and did not notice that their 3 year old wandered off at 1 am. The door closed behind him and a neighbour who happened to pass by found him alone and crying in the street and brought him back.
If Maddie was taken while wandering off alone, this could perhaps explain the sighting of this mysterious 'blonde' woman or the man carrying a blanket with the shape of a child.
Billie, they called it baby listening, or something like that. Apparently the resort also offered this service. A staff member would go to the door or window and listen if the children are ok while the parents are out. The McCanns didn't use this service, instead, so they said, performed their own baby listening.
Billie, I agree it sounds crazy. But perhaps he did not want to take the risk to wake the kids up by opening the door. So perhaps he only listened if he heard any noise or crying. Just speculation of course. It's not even certain they actually went to check every half hour. The statements of the T9 are contradictory.
Sharon, what you say makes perfect sense, only there is no evidence backing it up. Instead the PJ, so they say, have found evidence indicating an accident took place.
Kate McCann's appearance is irrelevant. It's what she may or may not have done on May 3 that is the point, not whether her looks meet anyone's idea of an anyway spurious ideal of a maternal figure.
On a separate point relating to relevance: the death penalty discussion is off topic for this thread (and indeed I should think perhaps the whole blog). Against it myself, for various reasons, but there are plenty of other places for people to talk about that if you want. Not here... please
On ths issue of the "40 questions" supposedly unanswered by Kate McCann; and of lie detector tests... again.
The right to remain silent and not to give evidence which you fee may incriminate yourself is a part of most civilised legal codes. It's an essential part of the mechanism protecting our civil liberties against a state which is by definition more powerful than we as individuals.
Portugal's code which provides for this 'arguido' status is not exactly the same as those in Britain or the US where most comentators here seem to live. But it fulfils this function. As I recall, the McCanns were given arguido status partly in order to llow them to refuse to answer questions, which they would have been obliged to answer if their status was as witnesses.
I think, like John (Uk), if the McCanns know anything they have not told the police, they really should tell. But it is in order if they do not want to for whatever reason. The law can make no presumption on that basis. Neither should we. I do find it odd, but I can imagine plenty of scenarios where I would wish to refuse to answer questions by law enforcement officers, even if I was completely innocent.
On the lie detector test: as I posted before, this has no validity in Portugal (no in Britain) and the McCanns would be ill advised to volunteer to do this, whether innocent of any crime or guilty.
I am glad that they have proper legal advice and defence, whoever is paying, even Richard Branson - as odious a self publicist as you are ever likely to encounter in any media (see, I do have feelings!). Everyone should had access to such legal resources in every case. Doesn't always happen. Doesn't mean the McCanns are guilty of anything, either.
What is totally annoying is what they say they are going do and what they actually turn out to be two different things. Why bother harping on your going to co-operate fully, take a lie detector test, etc., etc. and then DON'T. On top of that the story (camera, actually seeing kids sleeping, door closed, bed made, etc.) and the time-keep changing.
I totally agree with Reasonable Man. Death Panelty discussions are off topic. Idem re Kate's appearance. We also should not read too much into the way the couple behaves in the media. The frustrating thing is that the Portuguese tabloids regularly plant doubtful allegations, always by a 'source close to the investigation'. Very often this is total rubbish. The BBC website has a good overview on the case 'What we know'. It shows how little we actually know about the case with certainty.
A reasonable man | 10.17.07 - 11:16 am - I agree basically with your point about the right to remain silent as a legal protection, and I imagine there are circumstances where on being questioned one would choose to remain silent until you had proper legal representation.
However, the point in this case is that the McCanns have publically stated their willingness to assist the PJ - and they did this when they were not under any suspicion. There is an over riding interest which goes beyond the McCanns right to the protection of the law - and that is that their daughter is missing and needs to be found. They have said again and again that she was abducted which means that she is (in their view) in the hands of a malicious third party. If this is the case then surely her needs override any supposed risk to Kate or Gerry that they will be subject to interrogation or accusations. Their whole approach seems geared to protect themselves - in fact all the publcity seems to be along the lines of me, me, me!
Even during the original questioning the parents had their lawyer Pinto de Abreu present who could have told them which questions to answer and which to not. What kind of trick questions could there be? If they were telling the truth then there is little chance of contradiction. If however they are covering something up then they had to act as they did. They had to refuse to answer and then return to England only to slowly release a series of responses through the press.
In these circumstances the parents should have given up their right to silence (which I accept they have) in the interests of Madeleine. The only justification that could possibly hold is that the PJ were indeed trying to frame them. Which means that you have to believe that the PJ and the judges are corrupt. I know there are some who do think this - but to be honest it is the worst kind a straw clutching.
I am so glad we are back to the 40 questions - as it is my favourite subject
Competely irrelevant but interesting I suppose - the winner if this years Man Booker prize for literature writes about how she doesn't like the McCanns.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n19/enr...19/
enri01_.html
Just goes to show how deep the effects of this story run.
Great post John!
The McCanns chose to have 'arguido' status in order to have the right to not answer the questions. Now they want that to that status to be lifted. I wonder if under Portueque's law, now that they have spoken out and answered some of those questions publicly if they have not voluntarily given up their 'arguido' status. Probably not, just added "obstruction to justice" in addition and that would be like calling the "kettle black" as it appears to be done on both sides.
Sharon I was only referring to direct quotes made by the couple themselves.
John (Uk) - good link. I haven't read her novel but Ann Enright certainly brings a sharp writer's eye to this case - perhaps one of truth (and the agonising absence of it) being more compelling than fiction.
I am sure she would never have been able to conjure this thread and its predecessors out of her own imagination!
I also agree with both your assessment of the McCanns' whole presentation and of the Portuguese police.
So far, I don't buy the McCanns' story. I don't like the way people are characterised as pro- or anti-McCann (less here than in other places). I am neither. I just think they have not told the truth yet.
Re Dee I wonder if under Portuguese's law, now that they have spoken out and answered some of those questions publicly if they have not voluntarily given up their 'arguido' status. Probably not, just added "obstruction to justice" in addition and that would be like calling the "kettle black" as it appears to be done on both sides.
The justice secrecy law (art. 371 of the Portuguese Penal Code) only says the person -who gives information concerning the procedure protected by justice secrecy which can not be divulgated- is punished by 2 years of imprisonment maximum. If the McCanns were condemned by this law, they won’t loose their status of arguido.
So in other words they are stuck with their decision for the 8 (I believe) months or a Magistrate clears them. Thanks Jose.
Arguido status gave them more protection in the eyes of the law. They were allowed legal representation and I believe we all would have taken that, as in another country you do not know how things work. I think the reluctance of not answering the questions was probably a legal advisory than a blank refusal. The issue surrounding what has happened to Madeleine is still in question but until the fluids are identified and tested and confirmed 100% everything is still up in the air. If the fluids are from a corpse that matches Madeleine's DNA then this case turns into simply figuring out how Kate or Gerry killed Madeleine. IF the DNA isnt from Madeleine the thought is that she was kidnapped on order by Russian Mafia where she would have been subjected to god knows what as the business of child traffiking/porn/abuse is a million dollar business out there especially in places such as Uzbekistan since Russian was split as it is impossible to police these places.
The facts again are more and more ambiguous, exaggerated by the media and reported as hearsay.
I will wait with bated breath to see what the result of the DNA proves. Again rumour has it that it is a definite match.
Wow, I've just read Ann Enright's diary re: the case. It just about sums up where I'm coming from other than my absolute fascination with knowing the precise (and true!)timeline of events on 3rd May.
Thanks for the link John, on a personal level it makes me feel more okay with my obsession (in getting to the bottom of this mystery) by knowing that all sorts of people are going through the same thought processes and coming to similar conclusions.
Note that in the UK there is a 'Dispatches' programme on C4 terrestial at 9 pm tomorrow (Thursday) night examining the case.
Liz
Liz
Here's a link to the outline of tomorrows 'Dispatches' programme.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2681658.ece
This appears to outline the case Re: abduction.
Liz
Thanks for the link, Liz.
As much as I want the McCanns to be innocent, this article is not very persuasive. I would expect better reasoning from someone who believes in an abduction.
Article "PRIEST: I WAS DECEIVED"
"Last night the priest admitted he had got too close to the couple. But he insisted he was only driven to help them by their “inconsolable grief” in their days after Madeleine vanished. He said: “I was deceived. I was just doing my job supporting lost souls."
"The couple stopped seeing Father Pacheco and left Portugal without saying goodbye - leaving the church keys with another clergyman."
"I was deceived"
Those are pretty strong words. I wish the priest would elaborate on what he means.
The 24Horas Today:
Cadavers in putrefaction always emit fluids
Smell coming from the car
Between the day Madeleine vanished, May 3, and the day the McCanns rented the Renault Scénic there were 25 days. After 25 days, a cadaver ‘already could be in advanced decomposition’ explained Pinto da Costa, from the Forensic Medicine Institute of Porto. But it isn’t as absurd as it may appear the first time, that somebody has transported the Maddie’s body in the car 25 days after her death. ‘In fact, a cadaver emits unpleasant rotting odor. But this odor may come from the inside of the car and may be attenuated. It’s only necessary to have the windows of the car all open and a good ventilation’, added Pinto da Costa.
The putrefaction of cadaver could be retarded or advanced depending on the conditions in which it is maintained. ‘It will not be an advanced putrefaction only if it has been kept in adequate temperature condition, that is, in a fresh place with a temperate between 5-10°C maximum’. A cave, for example, fulfills this requirement. A corpse put in water needs more time to rot. Also in a liquid, a cadaver has a better conservation. ‘A corpse disposed in water rots with greater difficulty’, explained Pinto da Costa. ‘If it is in an aerated place submitted to humidity and heat, it would decompose more rapidly’. The fluids coming from a body are the source of the rotten smell. The snifter dogs can always detect this smell, added the officer, better than a human.
It’s those bodily fluids that were discovered in the boot of the Renault Scénic rented by the McCanns, according to the forensic report of Birmingham. ‘If a cadaver is transported in a vehicle it leaves always fluids that may impregnate the car’s carpets’. A cadaver in putrefaction always shows a black skin, it is affected by gasification and may swollen.
It seems to me that the reason for the abduction pivots around the belief that those involved, wealthy, middleclass professionals (doctors no less) couldn't possibly do something like this. 'It beggars belief'. But let's look at a few facts. Sure treatment from doctors is good by and large, however it's far from perfect. Iatrogenic disease is common in the treatment of patients. Doctors do make mistakes, especially when it comes to dispensing medicenes. Medical accidents are a fact of life, otherwise we wouldn't have the need for second opinions. It certainly does not beggar belief. Recently in Glasgow two doctors drove a flamming car into an airport entrance. The whole medical community worldwide was in shock that their caring and healing profession could resort to terrorism. However when you think about it doctors are highly trained and intelligent. They need to remain detached and emotionally removed from those they treat. They have access to medicenes. In Britain they are members of a powerful organisation that seeks to protect it's own unless there is incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. IMO doctors are more than any other highly paid profession best at killing.
Another article from the 24Horas:
The new team of investigators wants to visit the apartment
PJ returns to the Ocean Club
The Polícia Judiciária (PJ) went back to the Ocean Club apartment where Madeleine McCann vanished, May 3. Just arrived in the Algarve, on Monday, the new homicide team has gone to Praia da Luz to recognize the place where everything happened. ‘They were there Monday afternoon’ said to the 24Horas a resident in the resort, adding that the investigators stayed a ‘few time’, only the necessary to cover the several divisions and observe the several entrances to the interior.
This is the second time that the PJ goes to that place in few days. Already in the possession of some elements of the analysis ordered to the Laboratory of Birmingham, the investigators from Portimăo were already in the Ocean Club last week. They were seen by a witness of the process: Pamela Fenn. The English woman -that lives in apartment above the one where vanished the little Maddie- has seen the policemen and recognize some of them: ‘ The Chief inspector [Tavares de Almeida] was there and he interrogated me. Some days ago, they were there all the morning, has affirmed Pamela Fenn to the 24Horas.
Furthermore, sources within the investigation said that new diligences will be done on the ground in the next days. Nevertheless, it would be only a reexamination of the evidences collected at the beginning of the investigations.
The results from the Laboratory of Birmingham still arrives drop by drop, but a judicial officer reports that everything points to the involvement of the McCann couple in the disappearance of their daughter and the occultation of the respective corpse.
The PJ still don’t have certainties, but according to what the 24Horas has reported, it is analyzed the possibility that Maddie has been maintained in a closed place and her body congealed.
‘We are studying and verifying all the possibilities. In concrete, we only have the tests done by the Portuguese Forensic Medicine Institute, the scientific laboratory of the PJ and another great part comes from what we have solicited to the English. The truth is that nothing emerges leading to an accusation of McCann in a ‘preemptive way’ revealed a police officer.
Another source added ‘We are searching for evil and we want to find the body of the toddler. It’s our main objective. We will do new searches where and when it would be necessary and the McCanns or their Friends would be newly interrogated by the British authorities. There is a lot to clarify, above all the alibis presented by them.
Not much time tonite so a few quick thoughts...
Re the McCann's presumption of death: Didn't Karina point out that Gerry wrote in his blog the very words 'Madeleine's death'? We can say we aren't going to consider their body language but we must consider their words I believe. People 'sign' their crimes, their actions.
Re the DNA and the infinite time for the tests on it: Supposedly one can get a quick match of about 80% right off, ie enough to know say the family of origin, but it takes much longer to match all the markers of an actual individual. Add to that the tests to show that said individual was deceased as opposed to alive, and it takes longer still. Add to that retesting so as to avoid a national embarrassment...This length of time bodes ill for the McCanns imo.
Re the new possible abductress, a blonde woman wearing a light-colored trenchcoat looking into M's bedroom window: Kate wears a beige topper, not a trench, all the time. Could it have been her? Was she a lookout? Were she & Gerry talking thru the window in the moments preceding the hiding? Was M's body handed out the window to her? Was it she who carried the body to its initial hiding place and thus tainted her clothing with the scent of death? Could that place have been a service area, ie, a laundry room where a woman would look perhaps less conspicuous?
We need to think differently if we are to think like the McCanns.
Lizbee thank you for the link to the Dispatches programme. I agree with Karina this man (David Canter) is not persuasive in his argument, however I shall watch the item tonight hopefully with an open mind. I could not help but gasp in amazement when Mr Canter tells us that the English police are so much better equipped to deal with a large enquiry like this. That would account for Rhys Jones's murderers being apprehended so swiftly after the 11 year old was shot in a public place in broad daylight! Get real Mr Canter our police only find a burglar if he is wearing a mask and carrying a large cloth bag with swag written on it. It is very obvious that Mr Canter is fortunate enough never to have been a victim of crime in his own country.
Chanel,
if the blonde woman was KM how would that fit into the time line of events on the night of 3 May?
http://www.channel4.com/news/art...disgrace/
897447
The MC's spokesman is more and more on the defensive, but he does not sound very convincing IMO. Strange to refer to the case being 'still very much an active police investigation'.
Mr Mitchell: "Officially, I cannot discuss the detailed aspects of the case - it is still very much an active police investigation.
'I would point to some of these stories this morning - they are unsourced, they are unsubstantiated...'
Clarence Mitchell"What I can say though is Kate and Gerry have nothing to hide at all. They are perfectly happy to answer any of this, if it comes to it.
"There are wholly innocent explanations for anything the police may or may not have found.
"I would point to some of these stories this morning - they are unsourced, they are unsubstantiated...
"Frankly, some of the headlines this morning are a complete disgrace."
bleedin' hell maggie had to look it up:
i
·at·ro·gen·ic [ahy-a-truh-jen-ik, ee-a-]
–adjective
(of a medical disorder) caused by the diagnosis, manner, or treatment of a physician.
This articles makes one think about all this circus:
http://www.anthonysteen.org.uk/r...ype=news&
ID=323
I came across this article -
For want of a better explanation I think what is occuring is what I would term "fascination". We have all become focused on this case as amatuer sleuths - by "we" I refer to everyone who knows of this case. The simple morbid curiosity and fascination has got to us all. We crave for news on Madeleine - good or bad, to put our minds at rest. We "pick fault" at the McCanns and criticise them in some cases as "we are not like them" "we would never do that" and "we certainly think they are lying" WHY do we all do this, what gets to us about this case. IT is simply the not knowing, but is it wrong of us to do this? Are we guilty of making a bad situation worse? Are we like the press who "use" the story to sell their papers. Why do we keep going over and over the situations in our heads. We enjoy it, hand on my heart, I love this, love to delve into the minds of criminals and innocent people and to conclude theories. I have a so many theories and with each piece of evidence I can say "Ah ha I TOLD YOU SO". So why do I really care, why do we want to know.
yes it is simply that we must hope she is ok and want "resolution" but also we want to "the detective" in us want and love the thrill of the chase.
My views of the McCanns changes daily, from pity to hate to despair. One thing this whole sorry mess has taught me is that it is amazing how as a society, as a group and as a person we can be so easily swayed and fact or fiction we love a good gossip and this "witch hunt" is turning into that. Everywhere you go when people talk of this case Madeleine , takes a back seat the focus has turned to Kate and Gerry. Even with the new and improved - I use the term loosely will we ever know what happened, my guess is no, my hope is yes. To the bitter end of this investigation one thing is constant Madeleine is missing. The focus shall shift so many times the finger will point in many directions, "new" evidence shall keep turning up and the public shall keep on "sleuthing" and buying the media hype almost forgetting this is fact not fiction.
testing 123
Karina,
I don't think the Priest's words need elaborating. His message is loud and clear.
Something strikes me as very odd in the article below. Why would Gerry ask a friend to "check in on" Kate and the kids while he was playing tennis on that fateful afternoon?
http://tinyurl.com/yr7nj4
Reasonable Man, Billie et al: Funny I can never find anyone who supports capital punishment that wants to stop discussion on the subject.
Thats how it came to be abolished, we were told we were not fit to discuss or vote on its abolishment, MPs knew best. Tell you what Reasonable Man, lets find out how reasonable you are the next child killer they release from jail, can he/she be your new neighbour? Or are you just another NIMBY?
The Daily Mail article says
"Mr Payne, 41, is bound by Portuguese secrecy laws and cannot speak out about the events on that night."
This brings me back to my original question. Are the Tapa7 people bound by secrecy laws? This would be the reason why they are not talking.
I believe it was JOSE who said the Tapa7 are not "arguidos" and therefore COULD talk about the case.
Can someone clarify this issue?
Re Karina I believe it was JOSE who said the Tapa7 are not "arguidos" and therefore COULD talk about the case.
In fact, any citizen is subjected to the justice secrecy law (art. 371 from the Portuguese Penal Code).
This is interesting:
"Forensic scientist Professor David Barclay, part of the four-man team who reviewed the case for Channel Four's Dispatches show, said: "We examined all of the available evidence and the conclusion we came to was that there appeared to be some significant inconsistencies."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top...89520-19969064/
Karina I read just a few days ago an article regarding quotes from R.O'Brien. He claimed Gerry asked all of them not to make comments to the press, that his PR person wanted control. I don't have time to find the article, it could have been around Aug. 21. Given that and nothing but silence from the 7, I find the quote today from Payne rather odd and why now? Hanging Kate out to dry, insanity plea...don't know?
Something weird is going on. One of the comments to the link that Billie put in her post said that if Kate was fat and ugly people would have more sympathy with her - WRONG. A fat and ugly woman would have been in jail by now or charged. It's is without a doubt the most rubbish article I've ever read on this subject. Shameful.
JoseFR
You said "In fact, any citizen is subjected to the justice secrecy law (art. 371 from the Portuguese Penal Code)."
This does not make sense. Look at all the blogs and newspaper articles on this case !!
After further thought, I would like to add:
I find the quote today from Payne rather odd and why now? Hanging Kate out to dry, insanity plea...don't know? "More likely, shrink that time-line down for Kate, of course."
Dee, you threw out a possible insantity plea as motive for Payne speaking out like that...makes me think...it just doesn't make any sense to me that Gerry would ask him to "check on Kate" -- why would there be a need for a check unless something was amiss; perhaps Kate was having a difficult day with the kids...perhaps they'd had an argument...who knows. Payne wants us to believe that Gerry was concerned about Kate that particular afternoon. So...if charges are eventually laid, the defence could be that Kate temporarily "lost it" due to extreme stress or something to that effect...
"Probe too big for Portugal cops"
Another "expert" talking about the mistakes made by the PJ.
http://tinyurl.com/32f7tp
I understand there is a TV show now on British TV. Are you watching it? I wish I could see it but I am here in California :-(
Karina,
The 'Dispatches' programme is on in around 45 mins and it's an hour long show.
Here's a link to the outline of the show:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2681658.ece
I should think there should be people commenting about it afterwards and there might be a video of it on-line, I'll find a link to Channel 4.
Liz
Karina,
It looks like you might be able to watch it on-line with their new Channel4on demand service:
http://www.channel4.com/documentaries/
Check it out, I've not used it before,
Liz
Billy yes, it is pretty strange. Earlier reports were he had stopped in around 7 I believe, but no mention why. Why should this be explained in Gerry asked me to check on Kate? Why is he coming out with this now and it must be with Gerry's blessing? Why I leaned toward the time-line was it has been mentioned the PJ are going back to this and making some kind of model. If it is due to set-up a possible insanity plea, they perhaps know damning evidence is going to come out? It's another mystery twist.
They aren't bound by Portuguese law to stay silent as they are not suspects, however I believe from an article i read that they are indeed staying stum for the sake of their friendship BUT i also deeply feel they are keeping mouths shut tight because they are scared they break down, say the wrong thing and "leak" that little bit of information that will close this case.
Dee, yes, the evidence will likely prove extremely damning and I suppose that Team McCann is allowing these controlled leaks in order to set the stage for their defence.
Channel 4 on demand - thanks liz for the tip however this is the message:
Can I still watch your programmes if I live outside the UK?
Category: 4oD | Sub Category: Who can access 4oD
No. 4oD programming is only available to residents of the UK and the Republic of Ireland. The programme rights we hold are limited to these geographic regions and it is illegal for us to allow them to be downloaded elsewhere.
Hopefully the people who are able to watch can post their findings for us (unfortunate ones)!
Lynn you make a very good point. It will be interesting to see if more of them talk in the next few days or if it is just David P. for his odd tid-bit?
I know sometimes quotes are recycled from previous articles, but this one is new as well as Kate & the bed the other day. How do some on these one-liner quotes happen? I find it hard to believe David called the paper, was it C.M.? If anyone knows how the media gets these quotes, please let me know.
Have just watched the Dispatches programme and thought it gave a good an honest appraisal of the situation so far. They dismissed the wandering off and abducted by organised gangs as being extremely unlikely and so they think the most likely scenario is either a local perpetrator (if this is the case then Madeleine is now most likely dead) or that there was an accident - (need to await the forensics). They also said that FSS would never leak information and that what's being printed in the media is likely to be untrue.
Hi All,
Well they could have saved a helluva lot of money in sending that crew of detectives over and sent a selection of us! IMO we knew all (well practically) all that they 'found out' already and the only bits that were 'new' to us are because they were able to walk the walk through different scenarios. I was a bit bored in places I must say as they established:
The appt. could not be properly monitored from the Tapas bar therefore an abductor could have escaped unseen.
There are lots of alleyways and scrubland nearby which could have assisted in her disappearance whether she wandered, was abducted or 'something else happened'.
No-one could establish why DNA and prints were found on the appt. shutters etc. or in the car - they concluded 'it's a mystery how they got there'and they're keeping an open mind!
There are inconsistencies in the timeline of events.
The PJ could have been far more throrough in initial actions.
The media have created a frenzy which muddies the water, they were also responsible for pointing the finger at Murat, they don't help matters by inconsistent reporting.
IMO The doc. ended sort of suddenly and it was as if they'd been told which areas not to explore too rigourously such as T9 - esp G & K, 40 Qs etc. all the stuff we want to know.
The program did not really cover/evidence the wherabouts of M from the last photo at 2.29 pm to 10.00 pm. I noted that the 'bonded Nanny' in the creche last reported seeing M at lunchtime when I'm sure she's the same one who earlier in a news article said that she'd given her high tea?
Anyone else see it?
Liz
There is a thread on the mirror forum with a running commentary on the programme (starting at page 3 or 4) which will give you an idea. It was a pretty fair documentary but the 'experts' were hampered by lack of access plus they only knew the same (or less) information that we know. It showed that it would have been easy to bury the body on the beach (its quite big and rocky) and that there are large drains/tunnels which a body could easily have been hidden in (if the police were not diverted by the abduction claim). PLus the bins are really large and there are lots of them.They also showed that the fingerprints found on the shutters showed that the shutters were opened from the inside. Plus they showed that there was absolutely no possibility of seeing who was going in and out of the apt from the tapas bar.
Also the sliding doors entry was hidden in shadow. The alleyway has an exit up to the car park.
They examined all the theories and in the final analysis one of them concluded that it was most likely that harm came to the child in the apt. I guess they couldnt say more because it would render any trial unfair...
Also i believe that the secrecy laws are about details specific to the police investigation but that the mccanns and tapas 7 can talk about what happened that day. It seems to me that the mccanns are using the judicial secrecy law as an excuse to not answer inconveniant questions.
Previously they said that Kate had not spent any time alone with the children that day now David payne is asked to check up on her?
Watching re-run on 4+1 now. Interesting views of PDL. A lot of scenes of "detectives" discussing possibilities without any real new insights. And hard to take whole programme seriously as proper investigative journalism when you see the "detectives" being refused access to Ocean Club in to check scenario of tapas bar.
Thanks Liz & PDG! Question: I haven't never heard about finger prints on the "inside" of the shutters before. Who's finger prints, have they indentified them? I have a reason for asking.
Apparently the police now have the authority to seize the laptop and K's diary. Isn't it a bit late? Not likely G&K would have left anything incriminating in either place.
One thought has come to me now I'm reflecting on the program is that it 'prepared the way' no matter what the outcome. In other words there is some indication that it could have been an accident in the appt. or a local perp. but either way they have said nothing that could be challenged after any verdict. I guess if any of us were to go on such a jaunt and put our views on the telly we wouldn't have been much more forthcoming with this being an open criminal investigation.
As pdg said it was particularly good at looking at the places we can't see where a body could have been placed.
they froze a still of the video of the pj taking fingerprints of the shutters and it clearly showed 2 thumb prints in a certain position. The prints are on the outside of the shutters. They then checked the position of these thumb prints on another window/shutter and it showed that the shutter was opened from the inside. But whose thumb prints they are, well, maybe that is part of the evidence?!
a key word that they used was "staging" as in "staging a scene".
diary and laptop. It would be possible to see if things had been rubbed out in the diary or pages removed. And as far as I am aware, nothing can be removed from a computer (or it would be difficult without magnetically erasing everything), which is how Gary Glitter got caught with child porn. Everything is still there! Attempts to remove material would point to guilt no?
G would certainly have thought of erasing his hard drive. And I'm sure K has rewritten her diary.
Hey, I've just read a really interesting post (from Mir. forum Craig1) someone who's just returned from holiday in PDL and got local insight, it's quite long... should I paste it here?
Liz
Yes, Liz, print it, please.
Brown to discuss case with his Portuguese counterpart...
http://tinyurl.com/2mcl7h
hi karina, can you not get the mirror forum from the states?
This is not from me it's a quote from craig1 on mir.forum who has given his permission to cut and paste:
'Hi folks as I said Just got back from PDL and have somne info that may confirm a lot of our thoughts!!!!
Had a long chat with our villa manager who has lived in PDL all her life and just about knows everyone also spoke to couple of contacts so here goes (sadly I just missed despatches programme 2 nite.....so hope I am not repeating info)
Chaplins
Yes the Mccanns and Co definetely went there on not ONE but TWO occasions!!
Nite of Maddys Kidnap
Yes they did drink 14 bottles of wine!!! And when maddy was discovered misssing the family nor friends did not search.......... 300 ex pats plus locals and the police were out searching everywhere!!! Kate did go jogging next morning ...and intially everyone had sympathy with them ...the kidnap story was never one many people believed ...most thought maddy had wandered off..but sympathy began to wane a bit when folk discovered kids were left alone every nite .......and behaviour of parents I.e. almost celeb status .......attitude and setting up of web site!!!! And the acted as if they were on extended holiday!
Villa they rented cost the mcanns ÂŁ800 per week
The Priest and English Minister got in big trouble with the church because they gave keys ......and as My contact said there are devout people who have lived in PDL all their lives and never had keys!!!!! They are digging up side of church at moment looking for body !!( it just looks like roadworks but was assured that this was the case)
The Neighbour (who never spoke to press!!! ) heard kate being very agressive to children when gerry at tennis.....and maddy crying for her daddy!! The twins did NOT wake up the nite maddy went missing and everyone thought it strange!!
Robert Murat is a really nice guy who just trys to be helpful particularly to British Community......,.,and felt so much sympathy for the Mc Canns the nite maddy went missing and he said "what if it was my sophie " apparently his whole worlds been upset by this nightmare. I was told he is so nice ..when Baptista was closed ...he drove to Lagos next town and bought lots and lots of bottles of water for journalists and police !!!
On Arguido .....,K and G gave home adress to PJ which means they do not have to return to algarve and also in portugeuse law I was told cant try them for murder if no body!!!! Locals do not think they will ever return to algarve
They booked plane tickets for home on the Thursday........ the general consensus is they scarpered as guilty!! PJ may prosecute for child neglect!!
Forensics...PJ have the expertise like Birmingham ......but they were so sick of negative spin they asked GB to do ...so when came back couldnt be accused of fiddling with it !!!!
The PJ guy that was moved not sacked was just sick of the whole mcCann spin and slagging of PJ.......he wanted to prosecute re child neglect!!!
Apparent
Wow, Lizbee thank you for that. Very interesting indeed, especially the bit about Murat and Kate being aggressive. And Chaplins two nights.... I also read somewhere (prob Mirror Forum), that the McCann's will face child neglect charges if the evidence is insufficient.
I also saw the Dispatches programme and left my thoughts above. It was interesting what they said about the 'staging'. Also they didn't dwell on the leaving of the children nightly but referred to it as the 'nightly routine'.
I dont know what to be more shocked by: the dinners at chaplins? the jogging the next morning? nobody in the family and friends searching? the treatment of robert murat?
Sorry I don't mean to imply that Murat was aggressive. Apologies for double post.
This is one of the first articles. I would assume the statements and the press reported accurately. Why wouldn't they at this point...just report the facts; it's a legit. news story at this point. I believe the initial reports & quotes will be the best info. on what transpired. Before the papers just want to have "the Maddy story" to sell papers.
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/ne...-
name_page.html
"The window shutters, which had been CLOSED since we arrived on Saturday, were open along with the window. THEY CAN BE OPENED FROM THE OUTSIDE." (Sorry since I can't do bolding I will use Caps (not shouting at you all)).
"The window opens on to a car park. The door to the room was shut. It looks as if someone has come through the window and possibly left through the door." Now this is being reversed.
"Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. (obviously proven untrue).
Then we have: "Heart specialist Gerry McCann rang his sister Trish in Scotland after Maddy vanished from her cot placed between two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie. Trish revealed yesterday: "He was breaking his heart, saying 'Madeleine's been abducted, she's been abducted'."
Other quotes, that makes it seem; a lot more was done initially then we were lead to believe.
"Officers sealed off the five-storey holiday block with crime scene tape and fingerprinted the shutters and window sill outside Maddy's room. A patio to the rear of the block, believed to be attached to the family's two-bedroom apartment, was also sealed off."
By late afternoon the hunt for Maddy had intensified with helicopter crews, firemen and maritime search teams involved.
A special criminal investigation team from the Policia Judiciria was travelling down from Lisbon.
Sky News weather presenter Jo Wheeler said local police had been giving out maps and telling people where to look. She said: "It's very well organised."
Obviously this is all hearsay but so are our speculatons. If it's true that they went to Chaplins twice, they didn't actually search on the night, K went jogging next day, giving keys to well known devout local users of the church is unheard of, tickets home were booked as soon as the heat was on, Murat is highly regarded and very well known locally, they're digging under the pretence of roadworks... Where does that leave the McCs?
craig again:"3 different people confirmed chaplin story.,..apparently well known fact in PD"
Also in the programme they showed some early clips of Kate, her meeting the pope and so on, and the overriding impression I got from her was fear, trembling with nervousness.
Just supposing it was a local perp. ...they certainly made it easy for them. No wonder G didn't want anyone from the Tapas bar talking.
Another thought, the findmadeleine campaign asks for any information leading to M beng found... doesn't that statement include local knowledge such as the above?
Dee: Channel 4 On Demand does say it's for UK and Eire only. You could try just saying you live in the UK or Eire and see if they block your IP address or if they just trust you. If you can't get access, it will be worth checking YouTube as some programmes tend to find their way there fairly quickly.
Actually you didn't really miss much as you may have gathered from other comments on the programme above.
Here's a wee bit more of my impressions of it.
The general location shots around PDL were intersting, but the Best of British Detectives were a bit mediocre. You felt when one or two made criticisms of the Portuguese investigation that it wa a bit rich coming from some chumps whose programme editor couldn't even get them inside the Ocean Club for a look see.
They set out 3 main hypotheses: M wandering off; abduction; and parents involved.
They basically ruled out wandering off on the grounds that she would have likely been found.
The abduction hypothesis was presented in more detail than the others. However the programme didn't subject the abduction hypothesis to even simple questions like: why take M when there were two younger kids asleep in the same apartment?
It concentrated mainly on the possibility that an abductor could easily disappear in the streets around the apartment.
The forensic psychologist was brought on to profile a potential abductor. I paraphrase but he said - after the qualification firstly: if Madeleine had not been harmed deliberately or accidentally by her family - that the putative abductor was most likely to be a local (PDL resident) person and not an organised international gang of child traffickers. This local person was not likely to be a woman interested in replacing a lost or otherwise absent baby (M was too old), and also not likely to be a paedophile who would be interested in pubescent girl (M was too young) but most probably a local person with an obsessive personality who had built up an obsession with someone like M and had taken her opportunistically. He reckoned this type of person, if they had take Madeleine, would under other circumstances have later tried to release her - but in this case would have probably panicked as a result of the huge media frenzy and would probably have killed her and disposed of her to hide their action.
In other words he ruled out almost all the potential abductors which most abduction theories assume.
One of the "detectives" mentioned the report about a man having been seen carrying a hild wrapped in a blanket. But this "evidence" was not subjected to any further discussion.
The search guy kept looking down a well - of which there are many on the sourrounding countryside - and into a concrete drain pipe - of which there are several - which opens onto the beach saying he had a team of experts who were trained to look in wells and up drainpipes. As if to imply that the Portuguese police couldn't do this. There was lots of speculat
craig again:"3 different people confirmed chaplin story.,..apparently well known fact in PD"
Also in the programme they showed some early clips of Kate, her meeting the pope and so on, and the overriding impression I got from her was fear, trembling with nervousness.
Thanks everyone for you comments on the show, no I wasn't asked where I was from, my email .ca must have gave them the clue.
So if I understand the show right; it was to prove if an abduction/kidnapping did happen and basically rules it out, logically speaking?
Liz "the findmadeleine campaign asks for any information leading to M being found..." I believe it is not only if she is found alive, but in addition, any and all people prosecuted. One pretty tall order, before any money is released for other families, if I understand the fund right? Why in the world can they keep rolling the dough in at this point? I know it is not a registered charity, but a warning should be issued by perhaps a gov.t agency, that people understand it is not been given charity status.
ion that the searches to date had been poorly conducted, but no real evidence of this.
The programme did say that the wheeled rubbish/garbage bins - of which there were many - in PDL streets had all been emptied in the early morning of 4 May soon after the first search had been called off, and their contents owuld have been taken to the town dump. We were given the impression that this place has not been searched, though this was not said explicitly I think.
There was a cursory run through the parental involvement hypothesis.
The forensic detective (a different guy, one who I took to have previously worked with the British forensic experts now being used in this case) showed how the shutter could not have been opened from outside (presumably much as the PJ concluded themselves on Day 1 after the McCanns had claimed it was). However I didn't hear him or anyone say explicitly that this fact may have undermined their story (and hence credibility).
Without clearly explaining his line of reasoning, this forensic basically came to the conclusion that Madeleine most likely came to harm in the apartment.
The rest of the forensic "evidence" was skirted over as media speculation. Slightly ironic given that they had just spend around 40 of their 50 odd minutes speculating on abduction.
He did make the point noted above that in his view the forensic experts will not have released any findings or evidence whatsoever to any media. He said this had never happened in more than 20 years of his experience with them.
In all - not much of a programme.
The only thing it confirmed for me is the fact that no responsible parent would leave 3 kids sleeping in *that* apartment, apparently unlocked, and go off to a restaurant *that far away* for *that* amount of time - even if checking back regularly - to eat and drink with their mates. I guess that's why so many reasonable people - like me - have basic questions which the McCanns just haven't answered.
And just seeing the location shots kept raising again all the questions exercised here about the timelines and inconsistencies in the reported stories and so on - scarcely any of which were even mentioned in the programme.
(Oh Stanley - I don't want to waste another post on capital punishment so I won't respond to your question above, as my point is that it should be raised in another place and not here. I often do agree with many of your other posts though How reasonable is that?)
Not sure what happened with previous post getting split but hope you can read parts 1 and 2!
While looking for Dispatches prgoramme on YouTube (not there yet, it would be too soon anyway I think) I came across this
http://www.youtube.com/user/jkleinhuizen
I hadn't seen it mentioned here or anywhere before (if it has been discussed, my apologies). This person is promoting their company and their security software which does what they call "Layered Voice Analysis". The two links currently on this user's Youtube page are worth a look and listen.
I should think the McCanns will never do any lie detector/plygraph test since they will have (correctly) been advised not to - but maybe they have already unwittingly done something even more damning, just by speaking.
Or maybe this is a hoax! What do you think...
Actually A.R.Man I did see that and found it extremely interesting. As the person who used the computer generated results said paraphasing here is was a small sample. Note all you unbelievers of body language (the lie detector red flagged this to say the least)!!! It was suggested on the forum and someone said they would follow up suggesting to this guy he do Kate's 20+ minute phone interview and that would be even better!
Interesting article in the Daily Mail today.
http://tinyurl.com/2e2rpb
From the article:
Portuguese police have reportedly admitted that they have no evidence allowing them to accuse the parents of missing Madeleine McCann of any crime.
From the same article:
However the paper also quoted a source who insisted that all evidence still pointed towards the McCanns' involvement in the disappearance of their daughter.
Which leads us to this brilliant statement:
The quotes appeared to come from two different unnamed sources.
Well, I don't know about anyone else, but my faith in the news reporting surrounding Madeleine just skyrocketed.
(And yes, that is sarcasm you detect...)
Thanks to everyone who summarized the TV program.
Did they even talk about DNA results?
I've been thinking a lot about this case and IF the DNA results show that DNA of a decomposed body was found in the trunk of the car, then I will be convinced that the McCanns were involved.
Will these results ever be officially released? I am beginning to lose my patience
@ Maggie:
Well said, my friend.
I agree wholeheartedly at your 4:30AM post above - I could have written it myself, if I were able to be so concise and to the point...
Karina, the programme was likely cut before any DNA evidence was released. But good question...I thought the DNA results were supposed to have been made public this past Monday. Wonder what the delay is?
Disclaimer: this is merely a comment based upon my very keen intuition, and nothing more - however, my intuiton has proven to be very reliable so far, after decades on this plane - again, opinions/"leaked" facts are all we have at the present, and I write this with all due respect to every party concerned:
K is a "type A" personality, which could imply that she likes to have control, likely a perfectionist, and has a temper. Most of the recent "leaks" have supported that supposition. Especially the newest claim that DP was asked to check on K on May 3.
I can easily imagine K (under influence of substance or due to her own menstrual cycle or a combo of both?) could have become VERY AGITATED, infuriated, in a rage instantaneously - about anything - not only a child that will not cooperate - but also a husband who is not affected by emotion, and therefore more "mentally stable" and able to disconnect and enjoy his holiday at whatever cost - combine that with the pressure of the "holiday" where she was supposed to have a break, and M who was "hyperactive"... It does not take a large stretch of the imagination to see how an "accident" could have occured on the evening of May 3.
Anyway, I have gone through this in my head too many times to count, and I keep coming back to a desperate K and a savior mentality G. Their comments and actions have backed my assumptions to date.
The details still escape me, though I feel certain that I have some of them correct. I stand firm in my belief that more details will surface in the ocming months that can accomodate all the crazy pieces of this puzzle - whether it is via the Tapas group breaking down, or G himself.
Finally, I cannot post this without a small little comment for poor M. I bet she has visited K on many occasions, and I can only hope that she is giving her "her tuppence worth"...
Sorry if I have been too out there in the "cosmos" for some of you - but my science & medical knowledge are tempered by a belief of a very loving God, albeit on the periphery of everything we humans must face...
I've said "the truth will set you free" because I deeply believe that. Maybe that is what K felt as well, and why she had to talk to a priest ASAP the night of May 3...
Just my own thoughts - sorry if disjointed - this case has my mind spinning....
Who of you out there would go jogging the morning after you discovered your daughter missing? Strikes me as really bizarre!!
Another thing that has been nagging at me and is directed at any one who is Catholic and has been to confessional. Do any of you truly believe that (hypothetically speaking, naturally) if K&G had somehow been involved in an accidental death of M, would they have confessed such to the Priest? And if they had, why would he have turned around and given them keys to the Church? Wouldn't he have been horrified and gone to the police?
Another thing.
About the "Find Maddie" fund which has raised thousands of dollars to date. I'm hoping that someone has a record of the donators so they can all be reimbursed in case the McCanns are found guilty. These people donated money in good faith believing the McCann team story about a possible abduction and they deserve to be reimbursed.
Wouldn't he have been horrified and gone to the police?
Not if he takes his calling seriously and wants to remain a priest. Violating the Seal of the Confessional is punishable by excommunication, no matter what the circumstances.
And before anyone screams about how wrong that is... God's Law comes above and before all other laws, including the laws of man. It's more important (to Catholics) that people answer to God's Law than to man's law, and that includes confessing your sins and seeking absolution. If people can't trust their priest to lead them to God without turning them into the police, then the priests have failed in their one true duty.
The Seal of the Confessional is inviolable - if they did tell him anything (and I don't think they confessed anything more serious than guilt at leaving the children alone), we'll never know what it was.
24Horas Today:
In the dawn of the disappearance of Maddie, her parents changed of house
PJ allowed the McCanns to clean the apartment
In the dawn of the 4th of May, some hours after the disappearance of Maddie, the McCanns leaved the apartment where they were living and took all the goods they wanted. The modifications could have been fatal for the investigations and moreover it has been authorized by the Polícia Judiciária (PJ). In other words, a lot of evidences may have disappeared before the apartment was sealed by the authorities.
“It’s clear that the house should have been sealed. With everything in place and anything moved. But it wasn’t what happens. They carried everything to another apartment of the Ocean Club with everything they wanted and without any control of the authorities”, unburdened to the 24Horas a judicial officer close to the case. Still from this source, the disappearance of Maddie is “a case that promises to eternize in the time and the solution may never come and may never be revealed from the evidences that are collected and although it points to the involvement of the McCanns they are not conclusive.’
A high officer of the GNR has confirmed those facts to the 24Horas, nevertheless he affirmed that that police force has well acted: “After the alert, the squad came immediately to the place. It has only taken the time of the path from Lagos to Praia da Luz. So when they arrived in the place they realized that they were dealing with an eventual crime, whatever it could be, and called for the commander of the office, who immediately called the Polícia Judiciária. It was also asked immediately for sniffer dogs and the entire region has been combed. Besides it is truth that this dogs didn’t were trained to detect the sent of blood and putrefied flesh. They were looking for a live person.”
The same officer adds that “only one dog has signaled a scent of the disappeared toddler close to the apartment of the McCanns”, but the searches performed there by the militaries and the elements of the PJ were unfruitful as it is publicly known.
The investigators of the PJ believed that Maddie died in the rented house by the parents, but they are unable to explain how the body has been removed from the place where it was occulted until it has been, as it is assumed, carried in the Renault rented by the McCanns more than 20 days after the disappearance of the toddler.
The authorities suspect that this should have happen in the house of Robert Murat, the other arguido in the process, but the evidences are weak. According to the 24Horas, with the arrival of the new team directed by Paul Rebelo, the investigations, until yesterday, were only restricted to the analysis of the elements already collected by the investigators in the beginning of the polemical case.
Emma thank you for your compliments.
DC, absolutely right the Confessional is invioable (though in some countries this may not be so).
Emma in post 11.41 wrote about Kate being a type A personality. If so then I agree she wouldn't have made an admission to the priest. I think the church going business was over egged. A Priest would never reveal publically the contents of the confessional but there are other ways to get information to the police.
Someone with an excellent control of their emotions would have the inclination to go jogging the next morning. However it could be for other reasons which I won't go into because it's speculation.
er..so 24horas is suggesting that the mccanns disposed of madeleine's body in cahoots with Robert Murat? Why? How? etc?
Why would murat destroy his own life by helping them? why would the mccanns enlist his help?
Kate is now seeing madeleine's ghost ... and i thought they were convinced she was still alive?
Bonkers.
Sharon, re your question on the blonde woman in the light-colored trench coat...If it was Kate and it happened shortly before 10pm as reported (if true - ??) then there is no problem with the timeline as we know it. Perhaps if it was Kate she was trying to break open the window, maybe this effort failed due to the headlights or the height of the window. Shortly after that Kate raised the alarm. It is possible that it was Kate. That would be wild.
But eyewitness testimony is known to be the weakest in trials, it can change, people's memories are so fluid and fleeting and even whimsical to their own desires. What will make this case is what we are all waiting for and praying for - strong DNA evidence and other forensic evidence, each piece adding up to a strong case.
If only right?
If Kate did jog the next day why?????
I think there are two reasons -
1.To escape reality to get away from the nightmare
2.To check on her daughters body, if it were an accident, if it were that Kate was responsible, as a mother she still needs to make sure her baby is ok, regardless of circumstances leading to the death of Madeleine. When a parent causes their childs death especially when a mother does it, they have an overwhelming need to look after the body, to wrap it up safely, even if the child is dead as a mother you still want the child to be protected and safe. This is why many parents refuse organ donation of their deceased children. So Kate would need an excuse to get away to say goodbye to Madeleine and to check she was ok. To look at how long she was away would determine roughly the area that needed to be searched - even if she sprinted there and back it could logistically give a circumference of the area to look at - given she would need time with her daughter to say goodbye it is more likely to be nearer than further away.
Another point I would like to make is that people have criticised Kate as being "aggressive" towards her children. As a mother how many times have I been in a situation where my manic children have acted up and i have told them to sit down and have been faced with the screaming retort of I want my daddy and cries for daddy. I am a wonderful mummy and I am doing this to reprimand my children, to make sure they know right from wrong. Every child cries for the other parent when being told off. Imagine if you had three children running around and you had to shout to be heard - its not unnatural really is it. With languge barriers too and of course word meaning what exactly is meant by aggressive - raised voices - thats totally understandably - beatings??? we need to define what the "witness" terms by the meaning of aggressive first before we cast anymore aspertions on Kate.
The programme last night on C4 was just c4 spin really, they know know more than us it was just a viewers war, take heed re: the media everything they do is to make money not to get justice.
Lets wait and see what the forensic tests show.
One final thought, before I bore you all, I too remember the nanny thats was on C4 show last night saying she sorted out high tea, I am almost sure she said it was for Madeleine, why does it seem that everyone contradicts themselves in this case???
And fabulous news that Christopher Paul Neil has been arrested, great work by united police forces and interpol - a lesson learnt there that working together can produce results!!!
It's useful to re-read the articles published in the beginning of the case. Interestingly, the day after she disappeared (or that same night) a sniffer dog followed her scent for some 400 yards but lost it near a supermarket. Could that not be a sign that she wandered off and was taken by a local perp who took advantage of the situation?
Unfortunately, I could not see yesterday's channel 4 programme since I do not live in the UK. But judging from the comments posted above it strikes me as odd that the detectives don't believe in the 'wandering off' theory 'because it is likely she would have been found'. Why? I don't think it is likely at all. If she wandered off it could well be that a local perp saw his/her golden opportunity and took advantage of the siutation.
I'm not aware of the 'Chaplin dinner'. Could somebody enlighten me?
Sharon
Sorry one more point
i just read PDG's post re: Robert Murat - this niggles me every day i do think he is involved mainly because the person who acts as the "helper" the one everyone "loves" and thinks is "the heart of the community" the one who "goes that extra mile" in this case MR MURAT is normally the one who "burdens the guilt". I have no idea why there would be a link but I still hand on heart believe there is no smoke without fire and that Murat was involved. There was a definite sighting of him in PDL at the time Madeleine went missing yet he denies it makes me go hmmmmm.
I actually think that Mrs Murat is involved too, not sure if this is due to watching too many thrillers but I have a theory which involved Murat and his mother, a "corrupt" member of the PJ and a priest - all seems extreme but conclusions I have drawn have been from law reports I have read re: child pedophilia in Portugal.
Getting back on track I also want to point out that the priest saying he left in "despair" what would this interpret as in Portugal, here in the UK I think it would be that something was really wrong and he couldn't cope with what he had learnt, however as I mentioned in my previous post language interpretations are different and tend to confuse.
chaplins is a restaurant next to the church, about 5 or 6 minutes walk from the mark warner complex. Apparently they dined there on at least one of the nights of the holiday. Which would make their excuse about the tapas bar (it was like dining in our back garden, within bounds of reponsible parenting, blah blah) moot...
Interesting point about the jogging, 'looking after' the body etc
Yes if anybody had heard me yelling at my daughter, they could come up with similar accusations about me... none of us are perfect.
But I suppose it all adds to the picture.
The concern I have with Chaplins is that it wasn't confirmed that they all went.
Sharon - it was me who summarised the Channel 4 programme's "detectives" as coming to the view that it was unlikely M had just wandered off, because if she had she would likely have been found.
The "detectives" themselves were shown wandering downhill from the apartment to the entrance to the Ocean Club saying things like "people tend to walk downhill if they are lost" and when they arrived at the OC entrance they said "it's very bright, as it would have been on the night M went missing - but she wasn't seen or found here..." then they pointed out that she (alive or dead) had not been found but that if she had just wanredered off it would have been likely that someone would have found her. So they concluded wandering off was an unlikely hypothesis.
Like I also said - it wasn't really a very good programme. This was an example of why it wasn't very good. I was not endorsing a report of qualified expert analysis reported by a credible team of investigative journalists!
Reasonable Man I agree with just about EVERYTHING you say apart from you know what! Can I just add my comments to the already excellent and as one would expect from this thread, erudite comments on the Dispatches programme.
At first I thought I had made a mistake and was watching a repeat of Last of the Summer Wine. For those not in the U.K. the B.B.C. have been told to make cutbacks and are firing staff. It was then I realised it was not Combo, Clegg etc (which was a pity as Nora Batty is a sort of pin up for me) it was in fact the cast from New Tricks. Again for folk who are not local this is a series about retired police officers brought back to reopen unsolved cases. They vary in age between myself and pdx77, pretty bloody old really.
However in the series these men are witty, intelligent, computer savvy, and generally with it, this comes about because they have a script! These poor beggars could not even visit the crime scene. Channel 4 could have saved the air fares and sent them to a local blind making shop and road-side cafe. They by their actions and words, thank god, dispelled any suggestion that our plods (sorry boys in blue) would have had M back and the scoundrel apprehended before he stepped out of the apartment.
Why the hell would you send a profiler to a place where he cannot visit the crime scene and does not know what crime took place. I am just glad this was not the BBC as it was a total waste of time and money. As someone else commented they would have learnt more reading this thread than their much hyped journey ever gave them.
http://portugalresident.com/port...ry.asp?
ID=19001
Found this online... it reports on child abduction in the Algarve...
Its food for thought i think.
thank you, RM, for clarifying about the programme (we didn't miss much...) and thanks to PDG for your update on Chaplin's.
About the jogging on 4 May: I like jogging and have two kids myself. I just can't believe anybody in their right mind would take the time to go jogging the day after their child went missing. To paraphrase CM, 'it beggars belief'.
I would have frantically joined the search or cling to the police or do whatever possible to find her. Unless, of course, I already knew that the child is never going to be found alive...
I had a peruse back amongst old news about Madeleine when she was first taken. There was reports of a maid being questioned, what happened there, what was the outcome.
I also came across an article that states Murats aunt Sally Eveleigh works for an adoption agency, is this true? Far out thinking but it has been known before that children are trafficked through the guise of adoption agencies...perhaps i have simply just watched too many Columbo movies
Sky news are reporting that "Analysis of hair samples from two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie is said to show no evidence of sedatives"
Re Karina You said "In fact, any citizen is subjected to the justice secrecy law (art. 371 from the Portuguese Penal Code)."
This does not make sense. Look at all the blogs and newspaper articles on this case !!
Before reading what is following, I recommend that you lesson that BBC audio file about the ‘The Portuguese criminal justice system’ :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/progr...ion/
7046773.stm
In criminal proceedings, the justice secret is explained in the art 86 of the Portuguese Procedure Criminal Code (CPP):
http://www.dgpj.mj.pt/sections/
n...e=1188905479.76
From the art 86 n°1 of the CPP, it results as a rule that the phase of the inquiry is secret, and the phase of the trial is public and the "instruction" is also secret, only been public when it is exclusively required by the arguido if he declared that he is not against publicity.
The justice secret is constitutionally established in the art 20 n°3 of the Constitution of the Portuguese Republic:
http://www.portugal.gov.pt/
Porta...ituicao_p03.htm
“The law shall provide for the definition and proper safeguarding of the secrecy of the investigation in the criminal proceedings.”
An inquiry is under secrecy and the arguido doesn’t have free access to the acts and also to the form that the evidences are collected.
To maintain the justice secrecy, punishment is used in the proceedings (art 371 of the Portuguese Civil Code).
You must distinguish two thinks: the justice secret in itself and the duties of the arguido concerning the justice secret that are defined in the art 86 of the CPP.
The art 86 n°5 and n°6 of the CPP says that the judicial authority can give information, documents, acts under justice secrecy to certain persons, if it is convenient for the establishment of the truth, and these persons are linked to justice secrecy.
Consequently and obviously, an arguido is subject to these law since he is a participant of the procedure.
But it also said that anybody who has been in contact with the process and has the knowledge of elements of the process is also subjected to the law. So anybody can commit a crime of violation of justice secret. How?
Let me give you an example: a journalist receives some documents concerning an inquiry subjected to justice secrecy. He published these documents in a newspaper. What would happen? He is neither an arguido nor a participant in the process. Well, in fact, he has committed a crime: a violation of the justice secret and naturally he would be sued and condemned.
Jose
thanks for the detailed explanation but I am still confused. Based on your last paragraph, it seems that 24Horas should be sued and attacked for publishing so many leaks and often misinformation.
The way I look at the situation, LEAKS are allowed but not the TRUE facts. People who don't want to talk invoke the secrecy laws but others have no problem making up stories
Questions for everyone ...
Assuming that Madeleine died in the apartment and assuming that one of the Tapa 7(OBrien or Payne) helped dispose of the body, where would they have hidden the body?
Did they have a car?
And when did Payne and OBrien fly back to the UK? How long did they stay after May3rd?
I am trying to figure out what they could have done with the body until it reappeared 25 days later in the rental car.
Any ideas?
I think the leaks are seen as hearsay and not fact hence not prosecutable, which is just more ridiculous than the way this case seems to be being handled.
@ Karina
I think the most obvious place to hide the body would be a suitcase - just for a short time - who would look there??? NOONE why would they?
A child's body decomposes a lot quicker than an adult body - the body to not decompose and smell would needed to be frozen realistically, everything about this case seems so far-fetched, it truly does.
I guess if I were looking to hide a body the best place to do this would be in a church yard and it just so happens they had the keys to do that.
I thought the most useful point about the Dispatches program was the footage of the many areas that a body could be hidden: wells, scrubland, rocky beach, large bins (yes I know they were emptied next day but could have been an initial resting place). All the rest we already knew.
Liz
Karina I have enquired on several occasions and no-one can say for sure if any of the group had a hire car on the night of 3rd. I agree O'Brian fits the time lines, and he changed all his clothing and his partner is the only person to have sighted the person carrying a child in pink pyjams. However what was done with the body is sadly a matter of pure conjecture. Unfortunately there are many options, the sea is still favourite in my book.
Someone asked how could K go jogging the next morning. Answer: God only knows, and some on this thread cannot understand my antipathy to this very strange lady. Two stone more, bigger boobs, still a fruitcake!
Ok, so you think it would have been buried and then dug up and placed in the car to be moved somewhere else?
@Lynn & pdg,
I totally agree about the so-called aggressive side of Kate. I also have three kids (youngest two very willsome twins!) and there have been moments when I'm extremely glad my sudden flash of frustrated shouting above their din haven't been overheard. Parenting three kids under four years of age is very hard work and if you're expected to be 'the perfect mother' on holiday and take charge whilst hubs enjoys himself, well that would just add to the frustration. I totally agree with the bit in Emma's post above where she describes their personality types, that's exactly as I see them.
Purely speculation but I think K has always been highly strung and not had the best of relationships with her Mother. I believe her Mother thinks this trait in K's personality is from her natural father's side (I am right here in that we don't know anything about him, or have I imagined this?).
K's Mother seems quite an outgoing and down to earth person who doesn't necessarily warm to the narcissistic side of K's nature, hence my belief that their's is a difficult relationship. If this is the case then it's not only a huge shame but a problem for any woman with young children - it doesn't look like K had any older female shoulder to lean on in the way that you can with your Mother, older sisters, Aunts. With her personality she would not have been able to show herself truly warts and all to her peers when her feelings of failure and frustration as a Mother were tearing her apart and fraying her life as it was at the edges.
Re Karina Ok, so you think it would have been buried and then dug up and placed in the car to be moved somewhere else?
If the body has been transported in the car after 25 days, the body couldnt have been buried - due to the putrefaction of the corpse.
The body must have been placed in a fresh place: a cave or in a fridge or put in a liquid and then it could haven buried or incinereated or destroyed.
ARMan,
I've just seen the youtube on that voice tech thing re: G's statment. 98% inaccurate? I'd like to see that run on all their interviews!!
I've just found this link to an article about the McCann's making a complaint to the PCC (Press Complaints Committeee) apparently it was lodged before the previous PR Rep for Team McCann left so it might not be pursued. Buy i haven't seen it anywhere else and it makes an interesting read:
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/
st...storycode=38942
Jose
You said
" The body must have been placed in a fresh place: a cave or in a fridge or put in a liquid and then it could haven buried or incinereated or destroyed."
That's why I am wondering when the McCanns' friends flew home. If the body was not buried for 25 days, I wonder where it was. If the friends had left Portugal, then the body could not have been kept in their apartment (refrigerated). After May3rd, the McCanns were under scrutiny and had NO car.
I am trying to come up with a plausible scenario re: the disposal of the body during these 25 days. I know it sounds so morbid. Sorry!
A fruitcake is really unfair i feel as she has lost a child, whatever the reason, this has happened to her and I am sure I would be the first to be a fruitcake and if all the media in the world were saying bad things about me I too am sure I would probably say something dumb.
RE: the body - if Kate did have to hide Madeleine then I think she probably put it in a suitcase, it isn't unusual to see people carrying suitcases around on holiday so i think perhaps this would be the ideal thing to do - why i am not sure - if i was guess i would have this case solved ah ha
I have been looking into the pedophilia that sweeps the world - my goodness it is horrendous, ranges from abusing to snuff - i guess i have lived a sheltered life, i didnt realise things like this went on.
I know death is final but my goodness i really hope Madeleine accidentally died at the hands of her mother than be subjected to what some of these monsters are capable of.
This gets me back to a point I wanted to make to Stanley - you say she is a fruitcake but she is probably (IF INNOCENT) at a point where she just needs a break - she knows she messed up big time and probably is having some form of breakdown but who wouldn't I think her actions cant be judged nor really can her words as I am sure we all would be fruitcakes.
Finally RE: The relationship with her Mother - I remember my mother saying to me OH My God if that was you and you had lost your daughter I would be there permanently, no matter what. This is true - why wasn't she there for Kate???? Makes me think that the relationship between them hasnt been the best.
@ STANLEY sorry my last post reads a bit odd - I certainly wasn't insinuating I thought you were a monster hope you don't read it like that.
Lynn,
Re: your suitcase idea
How do they keep the body in a suitcase for 25 days without it decomposing ?
Wouldn't the smell be awful?
If it was dumped in the sea right after death, how could they find DNA in the rental car ? (assuming that the DNA story is true).
@ Karina
Hey, I am not sure that they kept it in there that long but initially when the room was searched the night Madeleine went missing perhaps that's where she was. There wouldn't be a smell. They moved into another apartment so would have suitcases she could still have been in it then - I am not sure how long the time was between changing apartments but it is feasible to take a suitcase full of clothes and essential items with you. The body could then have been moved to a place where it could be left - water/freezer I am not sure - what sort of freezer was in the new apartment - chest freezers can hold a body. If the body was stored in acave or in the ocean I presume salt would soak into the body and this would show in the DNA.
Not sure what do you think???
Lynn,
hmmmmmmmm....yes, maybe a freezer in the new apartment ? how many days did they stay at the Ocean club before moving to the rented villa?
I guess it's a possibility but how can you live in a place with the body of your daughter in the freezer??
It boggles the mind.
K.
Yes true but how could you kill your child???
I am not sure if there was a freezer in the new apartment - there must have been - what was the time gap between apartments - need to look at that???
RE: the twins not waking either - no sedatives were found so i wonder would sleeping aids like phernegan or piriton show up in foresic tests - people use these medicines as sleeping aids i should point out they are not for that.
@ Lynn. Not to worry I have been insulted by experts! Me a monster, I'm not that loveable. It is interesting you used the phrase "needing a break" in regards to Kate. This immediately focused my mind back to the original thoughts I had on the McCanns. We are told that this was a family holiday. I also had 3 young children we took on holiday in fact as I said on an earlier thread when the youngest was 6 months we stayed in Sessimbra a lovely resort just outside Lisbon. We were in a hotel and spent all day with the children and put them in their room at night and ate in the hotel. The following years we rented villas had a siestsa and took the children out at night to restaurants (as did the Portuguese people). That was a family holiday. From what we know only of one day in this holiday not only did the children not have dinner with them even during the day they were put in a creche. How can this possibly be described as a family holiday or did K&G think that the children enjoyed the company of strangers to that of their parents.
There is a growing fad brought about by "celebs" Maddonna, Wacko Jacko , and the collection of body parts that is David Beckhams wife to name a few, who treat their children at best as fashion clothes horses and at worst as accessories. I really don't care about the biological relationships but I do care about the attention given to the children on this "family" holiday and if the stories about the Chaplin are true then their whole case (as far as negligence is concerned) is blown out the water.
Finally may I say that I am shocked that John & A Reasonable man have not admitted being in the Nora Batty fan club. Where have all the men of taste gone?
On a political point for a change, see below for link to PMs involvement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5...h?
v=5dWcyZ5N1G8
Stanley steady ref. Norah Batty, loose tights (panty hose) on an OAP (old aged pensioner) oo err, is this 'Carry on up the Algarve' after all?
Totally agree with the family holiday post (can't not as have said the same myself repeatedly on this site). Bizarre behaviour from the whole T9 party IMO... Don't they get it - FAMILY HOLIDAY - the two words together. Not Adults 'n' Kids holidays seperately. One of the brighter reasons to holiday in Europe - they love kids eating out with parents and in my experience staff bend over backwards to assist you.
Stanley: Sorry dude, not a Nora fan either. I can see why you thought t