So, who do you think did it?
I was going to get a scarf for Mom with 10 of my points...30 points would have got Dad those gloves...and little brother...that swell train set....frankly I do not care where...
As no one else has picked up on this re-opened format, so simply useful but now contextually broken, I'd say that it was a fine but failed gesture on Steve's part, and I'm going back to the disqus site to make a declaration. See you all there.
Unless of course, THAT completely breaks down too and we all get back here out of desperation.
But maybe its just time for a complete change for me.
ROBERT! Use your influence and fine persuasion to bring everyone back here. 
INDIE people are apparently posting at another MK haloscan thread, but I can't figure out how to get to it. This what opens up for me when I access the main blog site and thenscroll down and click on comments. But this NOT where people are.
If someone would post that link here, i'd appreciate it. Otherwise I'm at disqus.
I would like to post this from the last know post. Sorry
I would expect RS's lawyers to say anything they feel in order to try and remove suspicion from their client. This crime was committed on Italian soil and just because we do not like their way of doing things vis-a-vis our own countries is tough luck. The fact of the matter is, that AK and RS are caught up in their own lies. He says that he was on his computer most of the night, from what is it, 9:00 pm until 1:00 pm. AK says that they ate at around 11:00 pm, and then watched a movie and what else, made exotic love. That is a conflict and everyone knows it. The Italian system does not allow for someone to obfuscate the truth and hide behind a lawyer at the present moment. And that should be respected. They are on their own sovereign soil and they can try this case the way they see fit. A young woman has been sexually assaulted, and brutally murdered. They have every right to do what they feel is necessary to bring the criminals to justice. I have stated before, this case will be tried on the forensic evidence and the strength of the suspects alibis or lack thereof. AK says she is innocent as does both RS and RG. Each of them will have their day in court to prove their innocence.
OK. I took INDIE's suggestion and posted PRETTY PLEASE,/b> requests at both the old Haloscan site and at the new Disqus site.
When I saw soozieUK going on about flipping back & forth between two sites, I decided something had to be DONE. So, let us complete the Mutiny by abandoning both leaking tubs and
START the Thread All-Over Again HERE
For some levity (???), while you wait for others to move links & repost, here's a Veddy English Crime Rest of the Story:
Civil engineer attacked lawyer wife with chainsaw in their living room http://tinyurl.com/2byw8n
Mind you, that wasn't the 1st time either, and to boot, she had been a Crown prosecutor. You'd think that would be a hint to him not to go all American Pyscho. You'll have to click to see how far Christian, forgiven love can take you. I still think that the judge, whatever years he imposes, will make it a life license (i.e permanent probation when he gets out). Thank god they have no children.
Must remember to preview!!!!!
seattlite.................to funny
RobertM,
You are working hard!
Thank you, RobertM. Too quiet at disqus.
hey RobertM..............can you ask Steve to put those arrows on this site,so we can point people?
lol I like it here....Thanks Steve!
bcpl,
This crime was committed on Italian soil and just because we do not like their way of doing things vis-a-vis our own countries is tough luck.
Is this comment in response to the statements complaining of the "grilling" of AK yesterday and the use of "heresay" evidence?
I agree with you, that the contradictions in stories should be exploited, and that forensic evidence is critical to deciding guilt or innocence. What worries me in regard to RS is that the shoeprint evidence has been allowed to degrade, and his lawyers are speculating that without it, the case against RS is weakened.
See chrischris's posting from earlier today:
AGI) - Perugia, Dec 18 - "All I can say is that the shoeprint isn't there anymore, I believe it was very latent, very faint and therefore not visible anymore" said Saverio Potenza, expert for Raffaele Sollecito, while leaving the house were Meredith Kercher was killed. This morning around noon another on-the-spot investigation is being carried out in the house, in the presence of experts and lawyers of the suspects. Lawyer Tiziano Tedeschi showed the investigators a knife, which was found near the house, and some handkerchiefs, apparently with blood stains (the investigators however don't consider these elements important, also in the light of the rain of the past days in Perugia), but now the expert claims that the lack of shoeprint could have an impact on the position of Raffaele Sollecito. To journalist asking questions about a possible pollution of the crime scene, Professor Potenza responds: "I don't think the print can be evaporated, this is all I can say". Still it has to be underlined that investigators explained that any type of print is moulded, which scientifically explains why the imprint doesn't stay visible.
Anonymous straighten that out, will you? because you obviously aren't.
OK start moving links from today's stories. For those who don't know how to use tinyurl, here is its web-site.
http://tinyurl.com/
Become familiar with it, as some of the stories will have nested upon nested listings.
For your entertainment:
I wish I could find the OTHER Veddy British Crime Story from likely early in 2006. The TIMES ran a series of very droll yet strict factual pieces. Summary: The retired physician wife confronted the husband's so-called mistress in her Oxbridge rooms with a smallish tea knife over her alienation of said husband's affections. It would have been a true farce if it wasn't a real felony assault in that the mistress's one eye socket got cut up very badly. The physician wife got close to 3 years and probation, the mistress was ambivalently saddened & was done with the husband, and the husband showed himself to be a total dithering fool, not understanding at all how his uncommunicative behavior had brought two women to near total ruin. I'd have decked him on the spot if I was his kid or the wife's relative.
It seems that he'd abandoned the marital bed a full decade before (wife aged 52 & a busy practice) and taken up with the professional who became his mistress on hopes of being able to sustain an erection. But as it soon became evident that he couldn't do that with her either, and he refused to see a regular MD over it all, he and mistress took to doing crossword puzzles over tea. Very cozy, new companion, no demands. The physician wife kept thinking he was having sex with the mistress & so her rejection level mounted and mounted, until she invited herself over to the Other Women's offices for tea and brought her own knife with her.
And so, a Good Woman, someone who's done more good in the world than I, is currently sitting in an HM prison doing who knows what over a crime that should never have happened but did, because she loved the fool her husband so much that she didn't want a divorce. Sheesh. I can only hope that the grown children are NOT talking to him. Total low-grade narcissist. The Times reporter let the husband hang himself with his own key words. A fine piece of reporting.
LADIES--> Divorce them, have your own affairs, just do not use knives, guns or rat poison, despite how much they deserve it. Ain't worth the blot on your good name, nor sucking down taxpayer's money that could go elsewhere.
And don't get me started on the Claire Barlow case. She's said they are going to have to kick her out of HM prison at 20 years--why she may even refuse to leave--given how angry she is at being railroaded in the early 1990s. (She'd be a prime candidate for a US Innocency Project legal case. Prime.)
Back to Who Killed Meredith.
Have a Happy & Healing Hiatus, Steve!
Thanks RobertM.
What do all the thinkers here make of the Amanda interview yesterday, where she refuses to comment on why she originally implicated PL? She has to have a concrete reason, and has not said what that is. I think when (if) we find out, it is significant. And also, when they have pinpointed the questions on how she described too many crime scene details that only are known by the murderer/accomplice, and she again refuses to speak . . . hmmm . . . well, lets give her another 30 or 60 or 90 days in the cold, damp prison. She will come around.
BubbaJaK
I suspect that AK is finally coming to grips with the magnitude of the death of Meredith Kercher. She has had ample time to reflect on her role. Many people here think the Italian Police are stupid and inept; they may be right in their suppositions, and I would dare say this might be the case with Police all over the world. However, the Italian Police are keeping her in prison for good reasons. Her alibi has serious flaws in it, based on her statements to them.
I also suspect, that when her trial is all said in done, that she will be dragged off, kicking, screaming, and yelling, "I am innocent!' I am basing this on her wonderful performance before the Magistrate yesterday. If she cannot convince the Magistrate of her claims of innocence, how is she going to convince others who will be adjudicating her case, when the time comes?
opps!
BubbaJaK
I suspect that AK is finally coming to grips with the magnitude of the death of Meredith Kercher. She has had ample time to reflect on her role. Many people here think the Italian Police are stupid and inept; they may be right in their suppositions, and I would dare say this might be the case with Police all over the world. However, the Italian Police are keeping her in prison for good reasons. Her alibi has serious flaws in it, based on her statements to them.
I also suspect, that when her trial is all said in done, that she will be dragged off, kicking, screaming, and yelling, "I am innocent!' I am basing this on her wonderful performance before the Magistrate yesterday. If she cannot convince the Magistrate of her claims of innocence, how is she going to convince others who will be adjudicating her case, when the time comes?
I am responsible for the anonymous posting up to this point. I apologize for not putting in my name; too many changes going on.
I think this is a very workable forum, the DisQus also was/is. I hope wherever the majority ends up, I can find them, because the info here can be found sometimes NO where else. I have leared very much about social aspects of Italy, their justice system, and the culture in general. In addition, info arrives here much earlier than the places that do print the details. Hnag in there, fellow crime-detail-seekers.
Oh wow!! This page loaded in a second!! What happened, and how and why are we here? I have been fighting with that new blog, my CPU went to 100% as soon as the page started loading - and then it would just freeze.
Does this mean we can continue as before, with this as the new page? Please say yes
---------------------
Well, if you mean what I personally think re her behavior yesterday?
Well, if she has confessed her actual role in this case to the priest chaplain, as I am sure he has offered to hear her confession [its both his job and what he does as an RCC priest], then the priest has advised her that the FALSE implication of Patrick is worse than murdering someone by accident becasuse she did it INTENTIONALLY. Accident is accident, but naming Patrick was INTENTIONAL. Intentionality puts her immortal soul in great danger, and persisting in the sinful behavior only deepens the penance required. No five Hail Marys on this one.
But for her to explain why she named Patrick brings her psychologically right up to the precipice of having to admit/confess to What Really Happened and her role in it. And she's is under no legal obligation to convict herself. Us USAers call it the Fifth Amendment, but it developed out of deep UK roots, and the principle is accepted within the EU. No wonder she's shaking & having fits. She knows precisely what she did and can not reconcile that Amanda with her other Amanda persona. This is why I keep going back to Jung and the Shadow as an explanation. But tis not an excuse, you are the Shadow as well as you are the Light [consciousness]. What the Shadow does through you is still you doing it. (See paragraph below starting xin.)
As to what she should do as a defendant, I'd say her lawyers are doing her no favors by letting her NOW say anything to the PM, who is acting as a defacto prosecutor/investigator in this situation. Invoke the 5th and let's get to the charging part, a real bail hearing and a real evidentiary hearing too. But Our Friends in the ILE in Perugia are booting evidence even as we type. They probably deserve a 95% score for doing the house, but never doing a deep search of the grounds????????????????? A Fat Zero on that one.
And look at the damn Portuguese LE having-HAVING-to turn to British forensics to have any hope of finding anything credible against the McCanns. Even the former head of their labs came out and said "I guess we should train all police forces inthe Brit & US methods; the crime scene at Parais is hopelessly contaminated."
xin Call the Alioto Woman! Amanda deserves SOME REAL ADULT to help her face up to this situation, and learn her how to take responsibility and then how to live with it. Yes, she deserves the chance to GROW UP, even if its the occasion of admitting to voluntary manslaughter and spending 10 years in prison. Her present Italian lawyers haven't got a clue, and her parents can't even get rooms at the inn in Perugia. Sheesh.
And where's Forensic Doc still reviewing your files. You know maybe should ask to be liaisoned from hinthint to Italy. I'm sure she can pick up Italian and YOU'D get a lot more material!!!!
I gotta split. Vaya con dios.
Speaking of inconsistencies in stories, in today's Repubblica, RS's dad tried to address one of them:
"So when Raffaele refers to the effect, refers to the evening in which it was at the home of Meredith and not vice versa; Raffaele when referring to the effect knows perfectly what he said Amanda, including that Meredith at home there ever been''.
When Raffaele refers to the evening (when he cooked dinner), he meant that it took place at Meredith's house, not the other way around. He knows perfectly well what Amanda said, referring to the fact that Meredith has never been to his house.
Combine this with the dissapearing shoe print and it seems that Team RS in full court press...
SOOZIE UK its all because of you that I've acted. Your plaint about the loading and the doubled windows to make this work was JUST TOO DAMN MUCH. A waste of our times. Its a hobby, a release from other issues, not supposed to be this much work.
Your welcome.
ann arbor,
Yep, now if only they can explain how he was at his computer, when the supposed records say he wasn't, why he did not answer his Father's telephone call and text message while he was surfing. And by the way, his lover AK saying she was with him that night, eating dinner at 11:00 pm, watching Amelie (He did say he watched Amelie) and having exotic sex. It is what you call, the old changeroo when the facts don't fit your story just try to explain them away. And is RS, who said at the beginning of this mess, that he never knew Meredith Kercher, now saying that he cooked dinner there after only knowing Ak for two weeks. AK herself said they spent every morning having sex in bed. I sure wish these two folks can get their stories straight one day.
They need Xin's timeline and notes!
Thank you RobertM, much appreciated. It was getting so bad that I didn't bother checking in for ages and consequently missed lots of relevant comments.
It was a shame because I feel so involved in this whole thing (like the rest of us), and didn't want to miss out on anything new.
And I am much happier with this page. Loads fast and I'm used to this format. Thanks again
-------------------------
ann arbor,
They have all that stuff. Two weeks ago, RS appeared before the Magistrate to give new evidence and all that he said was, "I have nothing more to say, can I finish my thesis in prison if you please?"
Yesterday, we observed the antics of one of the other suspects in the case attempting to plead her case; it ended in tears with the defendant refusing to answer any more questions. The Magistrate will not be fooled on this. They know a lot more about this case than all of us here. Nothing new about this case has come out with one exception.
Pinecone is dead on right about RG, I have to admit. His paws are all over the body of Meredith Kercher; the only question that remains is, why was he there that night and how did he get in. I believe a drug deal took place, others believe that it was a night of sex, could be both, who knows. Both AK and RS have these answers and that is why they are in prison today.
There are some really nice people here.
Sorry to be schmaltzy. And so smart.
we'll all feel better when we see damian, deepen, squiggle and other old friends pop in again.
OK. The new thread. I will pop in the timeline here for it to be handy, and to be revised.
Speaking of handy and revision, how convenient for RS's lawyers to say yesterday that the overgrown hill should be searched for the weapon, and then, today, VOILA, the weapon. OJ needs those guys on retainer.
frank atPerugia Shock calls them the smiling lawyers.
The Dr ForPsy is currently being protected by her auntie.
standy by for current (always in flux) timelines.
(last revised dec 13.07)
Timeline: November 1, 2007 (Friday) rev.3
1300 AK & MK at their apartment
1400-1500 MK left
1700 AK, RS went to his apartment (per AK)
1745 Polish student saw Knox & Sollecito at the Italian's house
1800 AK, RS left her apartment (per Rafe)
“He was with AK until 1800 when they had both left RS apartment to go into the centre, around
2030 to 2100 RS went home, smoked; had dinner
2030 AK text message from PL
2030 – 2100 (AK “left him [RS], saying to him that she would go to Le
Chic, meet friends while he returned to his house”) “… left the
house telling Sollecito that she was going to work, [but she], she was at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana.”
2038 RG arrives (acc to RG)
2038 PL cellphone pings in the area of MK’s house
2040 Polish student sees AK leave RS’s;
AK and RS were at RS's flat at this time and before.
2040 AK and RS cell phones turned off
2043 AK seen on CCTV entering her house
2046 Meredith arrives eight minutes after RG arrives (acc to RG)
2050 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir
fry them.
2100 [[“It was [about] this time that either RS or AK turned off their
mobile phones, which [were on] again the following morning.” “All
three [includes PL] suspects have a gap in cell phone use for two hours around the time MK was raped and killed, according to the judge's order. PL changed his cell phone number the day after the murder.”]]
2100 AK claimed to meet PL at B-Ball courts and [return] to her house.
According to the judges, between
21.10 and 5.32 of the night of the crime "is not any human interaction.
@ RS apt
2100 MK leaves friend’s house to return home
2215 call made from MK's mobile to a service advising phone credit
balance
2229 First recorded receipts at Le Chic
2230 “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost
knocked over by a black man running away from scene” (She is part
of the mystery couple/perhaps DNA, heel print in MKs room)
2300 RSs father called, no answer
2300-0100 RS claims he’s on Internet at his home
xin,
Thanks for you timeline!
and likewise, last update 12.13.07
ALL corrections and additions are apperciated.we want this to be as accurate as possible, allowing also for alibi info to be included for analysis.
November 2, 2007 (Saturday) rev.3
0100 AK at RS’s apt
0200 Passers-by report loud voices from AK/MK home
0532 Internet activity noted at RS’s computer
0830 Bleach receipt (supplied by the market)
0915 Bleach receipt (supplied by the market)
1000 (per RS) Woke up at RS’s in morning
1030 (per RS) AK returns to her house to wash; took empty plastic bag
1100 (per AK) she was back at her house
1130 (per RS) AK back at RS’s house; worried—door open
Back to AK’s together. AK opens door w/keys; went in together. Blood in bathroom.
((AK and RS buy newspaper (?)))
1135 MK's clothes are in the washer
1235 postal police arrive; hear washing machine cycling off.
RS talking to his sister when cops arrive
1251 RS calls112/cops
1254 RS calls police again
1300 AK/MK housemate Romanelli arrived
a bunch of kermit's collection of pics and graphics have been added to the blog,that can't be put up here.
to see, if you haven't got them yourself, email me ca94306@gmail.com for access.
xin,
Great job on the blog!!! It's looking good.
OT but during the Spector fiasco did you ever check out Kim's blog> The Darwin Exception. She did a wonderful and humerous job of recapping the daily trial events.
((Oh yeah. Kim's great. So funny. I need to put her link on.
It was a fiasco. I feel so bad for Louis, the nicest person, sat by him some during verdict watch. he really wanted "dad to get his." I'm trying to get my photos untangled at flickr to put up a slide show of sites related to the murder. Did you follow dyleski? NOW there is a maniac serial killer stopped in his tracks. The worst. Thanks for kind words.))
Also, it would be nice to get Kim interested in this case. After I get the Chris-nakkuah cards out, I'm going to send her a note.
If I were linking, I would link to a post yesterday on Disqus.
Anyway...Rudy killed Meredith, and giving up Amanda would only make the case against him more solid by providing a witness. Amanda can't tell on Rudy, though, because she IS guilty of something, and he is the witness to that. Likewise, she wouldn't dare try to bring Rafe into this, because he knows what she did; but he's scared to tell on her, because he's guilty of something too, that she knows about. Only by overcharging each one can the police hope they'll tell on each other, just to bring the charges down to what they actually did. Just a theory.
I think Rafe would be the weak link, because his punishment would be the least if he just told what he did (clean-up). That makes what he's doing seem particularly arrogant.
Here we are moving house again. The problem is that there are always some boxes that get lost on the way or that don't end up getting unpacked.
RobertM wanted some recent posts from the other site. Just in case some of you haven't seen today's Italian TV news there was a video of the return to the house. The external part is from today, including the mysterious new dull knife, found just where RS's lawyers said it would be. The internal part of the house is probably video from the initial visits.
This link is the whole lunchtime newsbroadcast. If you want to avoid the news items about meningitis, and other things, jump to the 6:00 minute mark (exactly) - or 13.04.00 on the timer/clock imbedded in the video - which is where the Perugia report starts.)
http://video.centrodiascolto.it/
..._125801_987.wmv
Also Loz and I were talking about knives.There's the sharp kitchen knife which was found at RS's place with AK's and the victim's DNA on it. This is a photo of it:
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net...?
e0cd4d9d2d.jpg
(As I said, you've all seen that, haven't you? Or have I been sitting on that?)
And there's the new kitchen knife found today
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net...?
ce51f19563.jpg
AND ... a slightly NEW improved version of the second POWERPOINT (ie, improved upon since yesterday). Some minor modifications to the animation (and corrections, the view is southwest, not south), but a better presentation.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ch9bvj1xkud
(Xin, do a swap please)
hurrah! a functioning forum again! thanks everyone for your comments and thanks to those involved getting this up and running once again on True Crime weblog,
beenHere if there's a post over at Disqus, best to copy it and post it here & then explain why you like it. By links, I mean replicating all the newspaper links that have beeb posted both at Disqus and at the Old Halo Thread such as annarbor's today 12/18 at 1:30pm est on The Daily Telegraph's Knife story:
http://tinyurl.com/2kd6kg
TESTS ON KINIFE FOUND NEAR MEREDITH'S HOUSE
Updated: 5:51pmGMT 18/12/2007
Italian police investigating the murder of British student Meredith Kercher are examining whether a knife, found today near the house where she was killed, could be the murder weapon. Police have now discovered two knives. The police have sent the small knife, which was non-serrated and with a rounded tip, for forensic testing in Rome.
It was discovered in the undergrowth in the valley behind the British student’s house.
The area had already been searched by the police, but sources close to the investigation said that the knife had been "deliberately hidden".
annarbor wrote: Looks as though they are considering that knife a possiblity...Again it makes me wonder about RS' lawyers being adamant a few weeks back about a new search of the "underbrush surrounding the house". Things seem to be going RS's way today.
That kind of link move.
thanks kermit! hurah. seems we can settle here for a while.
So does anyone know what the next step is? Rudy's had his 'chat'. Knox has had her 'chat and weep' and RS is still in the background. As they've all had their chance to 'speak', what now? Gathering more evidence etc?
On a side note, I see that in the 'changing stories' saga, Rudy has changed his version almost as much as Knox. Given all the blatant lying, they're doomed before they start! In my opinion, there are only ever 2 reasons for lying. . . 1) To avoid hurting someone's feelings, ie: "I love the present" or "Lime green looks great on you" - and 2) To wriggle out of the trouble you know you're in.
What other reasons are there? Also, if RS is honestly guilty of only bad judgement (believing Knox's version and agreeing to help with the clean up thinking she was innocent) - surely he'll still be found guilty of perverting the course of justice, covering up a murder etc etc? Would the sentence be lenient for an offence of that sort?
---------------------
Here's some more of KERMIT'S superb work on the old INTERNAL FLOOR PLAN FOR THE HOUSE:
Today at about 12:30 pm -->Loz, you asked for the old internal houseplan. It's here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?4fxx2y2g5h9
Keep in mind that Amanda seems to have no wardrobe. The bathrooms aren't necessarily furnished correctly. Kitchen needs to be pushed back a meter.
However, an hour later Kermit posted the following: "... I've just reviewed the video and AK DID have a wardrobe at the base of her bed (different orientation than what I put on the floorplan). Her guitar is resting between the wardrobe doors and the foot of the bed."
Authors! Please move over posts like kermit if you put such up. Posters: If you made a specific comment on such a post and you don't see it up, move it and replicate your post.
The scientifica inspection at Meredith's house is just over. I leave them chatting out of the house. After one month and a half from the crime a knife was found in the underbrush around the house.
And who found it? The police? No, one from the smiling team.
Of course, they are the ones who want the weapon of the crime to be not Raffaele's knife.
And indeed, as soon as they entered the gate the lawyer went to find the knife and some blood stained hankies. How lucky...
This is from Franks blog....updated today
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/ sorry here is the link
what effect would all these new things have on AK. The hearing, and the discovery of new forensics?
and the fact she may not be home for Christmas?
Will she be left reeling, or will it 'harden' her?
Guess she'll just do whatever her lawyer(s) say, and just rely on that.
and also, what did you mean when you said she needs that big-shot lawyer who can teach her to 'grow up' and rebuild herself or take responsibilty?
BeenHereAllAlong: "Only by overcharging each one can the police hope they'll tell on each other, just to bring the charges down to what they actually did. Just a theory." I am with you on your theory from your recent 6:11 post. I feel each of these 3 suspects have a part in the murder, without question. Guilty people would change there story frequently; Innocent people would have no reason to. WE may never know who did the fatal stab, the first slice may have been an accident with MK struggling to break free of someone. The most important thing here, MK is gone forever, and these 3 persons will be held in a cold damp Italian prison until the TRUTH is known, or 30 years is up. Maybe they never tell, and if they do not, then they are ALL equally guilty of murder.
Here's an Author transfer on WHAT KNIVES LOOK LIKE would look like.
LOZ wrote today the following with links:
the difference between a good fish knife like my gran would have used (ignore the handle quirks of these):
http://www.aurumandsun.com/
image...StainlessStee...
and butter knives: http://cookies.cookiesfromitaly....m/
silverfromi...
AK did mention a meal of fish at rafes house, his hand had blood on it She knows more than she should then, if it is a fish knife, she was there & was involved!
To me though it looks like neither. it's massive. and if it was like a big master fish knife why is i not all 'silver' the handle is black. To me it looks like a bread knife or something. Unless it's a cheapo specialist fish-cookers knife. like what people who like to cook all different kinds of fish may have?
Authored by LOZ today 12/18
robM lol, thanks. that was a bad post of mine!
CORRECTED LINKS for LOZ's KNIFE PICS. [Sorry about that. Things copy but not the underlying code.]
Fish knives:
http://www.aurumandsun.com/
image...Cutleryfish.jpg
Butter knife
http://
cookies.cookiesfromitaly....utter_knife.jpg
OT mccanns do hello mag: http://www.hellomagazine.com/magazine/
it's probably one of those things that looks worse and seems more inappropriate than it is?
REPLY to LOZ you asked me to explicate the following: what did you mean when you said she needs that big-shot lawyer who can teach her to 'grow up' and rebuild herself or take responsibilty?
Through ongoing interactions between themselves, their enivornments, their families, friends and events, etc., people develop their personality as they physically grow from babies to adulthood. There are any number of theories to explain how this personality (which to me includes character) happens. Here's the link for the Wikipedia article on Piaget who worked on on very young kids' developed:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Jean_Piaget
Another development psychology is that of Carl Jung :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung
That's the one I'm working off of, re Amanda. She is NOT an integrated personality. Her male side (animus) is much more developed than her female (anima) side. (Note: this has nothing to do with sexual orientation.) An integrated, or WHOLE, personality will have a BALANCED anima & animus, and also be able to display societally accepted behavior, even while disagreeing with some aspects of that culture.
For instance, I don't do drugs, mostly because it isn't me and also because I'm well aware of the legal penalties; even booze, I'm way down on. (Now, Double-stuffed Oreos. Oooooo, I really stay away from those.) BUT, I believe the so-called War on Drugs here in the USA is a joke, a total waste of taxpayers money. Marijuana is still, after 40+ years, among the Top Ten Cash Crops in California, yet there are people in that states' prisons who are there for 3 possession charge. The only people who have benefited are the DEA agents who have had full careers in the agency and retired with great government pensions, like a High School friend of mine. Sheesh.
continued
RobertM, Loz, I'm off now, 'nite.
reply to LOZ continued
Wikipedia links corrected:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Jean_Piaget
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung
The most immediate way she can start to integrate her personalities towards wholeness is to directly confront what she knows and what she's done, and, with help, figure out how to make a meaningful restitution to society, which in this case really means to Mez's parents. Her parents, Kurt and Edda, being divorced for at least 15 years, have not been able to (1) model how to integrate herself, nor (2) made such growht explicate. Good grades & good goof smiles can get you a long way but alone they don't mean you are a WHOLE person [Amanda has a wonderfully plastic face; she could do great stand up taking on different character roles.].
But the Alioto woman, a strong person in her own right and yet a daughter of a strong personality, in addition to her own down-home Italian contacts, can model a forthright but responsible personality to Amanda, showing that intellect and character and yes looks can be part of a whole package. We are all made up of parts. Our personal goal, whether we are conscious of it or not, is to integrate aspects of our selves more & more into a whole. Why? Well, for one, so we don't get surprised when a part of us, without conscious thought usually, does something that makes the rest of ourselves go "Huh?" Going out and getting really smashed is not what I mean, though in that case its a generally acceptable to society behavior in which you deliberately let one of those other selves get to roam around. But what you do when you are smashed is still your responsibility. Amanda's parents don't have a clue about this. They don't get a lot even about adolescent women.
The Alioto woman, well-trained in the law & successful, sophisticated due to upbringing and travel, and empathic to others, is the kind of woman who's hand Amanda needs to hold. Its the next best thing to getting the kind of intense psychotherapy Amanda needs and get can't in prison. Also, it might just--JUST--get her out of this mess physically, though I believe its more a matter of what the Best American Lawyers call "damage control". You want to believe your client is innocent but you know he/she isn't and the client can't even admit it to themselves, "denial". Someone with authority, panache and empathy is the type of person Amanda needs to help her over into maturity. And that means facing up to the inner horror movie going on in permanently looped reals, the horro of having created the attack scenario that has played out so badly.
Today's find of the knife by RS' team exactly where they had said to look, the degraded shoeprint that is said by some will weaken the case against RS, his father publicly "clarifying" RS' misstatement today with re to MK being at his house...His defense is very well managed from a PR standpoint. I cannot help wonder if the fact that RS is an Italian from a wealthy and prominent family could help him elude being charged in this case. Is that a possibility, or a completely ridiculous notion? Any thoughts?
from THE DAILY TELEGRAPH of 12/18, companion story to its knife story:
Meredith Kercher suspect swears innocence
http://tinyurl.com/2xonj9
Very short sumamry of what's been posted as translations from the Italian papers. See my and Belle's translations at Disqus dated 12/17.
a2 - what all that can do, unless Amanda finally breaks, is give the Deciding Judges enough grounds to make an in effect Scottish Judgement, that is Not Proven, which would mean acquittal. To find him guilty on even the lesser of lesser charges, the circumstantial evidence has to be pretty pretty strong. And NOW, it isn't. Note that there are 5 judges on the panel of Deciding Judges. I don't think--and really would like too!--that a guilty verdict on lesser charges has to be all 5. I THINK a 3-2 vote will do. Someone from italy please correct me.
PERUGIA - Un piccolo coltello da cucina, di quelli in metallo senza seghetto e con la punta arrotondata, è stato trovato in alcune sterpaglie in una scarpata vicino al casolare dove il primo novembre è stata uccisa Mez Kercher. Il coltello, che dalle prime analisi non sembra compatibile con l'arma del delitto, è stato recuperato dagli uomini della polizia scientifica durante un sopralluogo nella casa del delitto. Oltre al coltello sono stati repertati due fazzoletti con delle macchie, forse di sangue. La segnalazione della presenza del coltello è arrivata da uno degli avvocati di Raffaele Sollecito.
Ah please ignore that last post. I hit the post button by accident. Translation of La Repubblica's last update to come.
Interesting, RobertM.
I'd not heard of "Scottish Judgement" before, but it is what I fear might happen. I know it is possible that RS is innocent, but the computer evidence indicates otherwise--as do several glaring inconsistencies in his rhetoric. As far as forensic evidence, the only other thing that I am aware of is the computer analysis for the night of the murder. And his team have their own "experts" that say it was in use...hmmmmm.
Ok, related to my last question, how strange is it that RS' lawyers requested that LE search again for the murder weapon in the underbrush around the house, and then actually found it themselves, right where they said it would be?
I'm not necessarily suggesting that it was planted, although that's a possibility. Could RS have known from the night of the murder that it was discarded there, with someone else's fingerprints, or DNA? In other words, that it would point to someone else, as AK's pointing out the s**t in the toilet pointed LE to RG?
Again, plausible or totally out in left field?
The area below the girl's house and (see Kermit's ppt) and the best "off the beaten path" path to where the phones were found would seem to be a natural search area. I never heard that an inyensive search was conducted there.
Middie had been asking about how the phones got there early on (car, walking off the streets to get back home?)
In the papers today they claimed they had seached there but the knife was hidden.
Pinecone they didn't even need to use a sniffy dog.
Ok, here are the original HaloScan comments threads.
Haloscan I postings dated from 11/06/07 to ~11/30/07 with a few trailing posts up through 12/07 can be found here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...193971/?
a=36428
HaloScan I is great for going back to find links to media reports, videos, and other evidence developments.
Haloscan II postings are dated from 11/26/07 - 12/18/07 (today). Steve started this second comments thread because HaloScan I became so large it took half the night to reload after each post. But remember HaloScan always takes you back to page top (no pagination) so you still get to do scroll happiness on Haloscan. Here is the link to HaloScan II.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...66135668042897/
and of course this is the URL link you are reading right now, call it Haloscan III if you will.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...73531507317890/
HaloScan III loads fast because it is new and not a very big file. As each post increments the file size the refresh/reload will take longer, so do not delude yourself that it is faster than say disqus.
True Crime Weblog disqus format can be found here.
http://truecrimeweblog.disqus.co...redith_kercher/
Posters are going to gravitate to the forum thread Haloscan III or Disqus to which they are most comfortable. That is to be expected, but I cannot fault the owner for trying a more powerful, with user options, comments-thread software. The software was not broken as many of us assumed at first, but it did have a steep learning curve and did need some preferred, by posters here, enhancements. The real objections came from many posters who obviously find it uncomfortable and challenging to adopt to sudden change and that is understandable, especially when a thread this size (many posters, high profile crime and international implications and interest) is under way over several weeks.
So while we now need, necessarily, to adapt to two threads I am just going with the flow, spend more time reading, much less posting. My contribution to holding down the hubris I suppose, which I find very high here, a function of the quantity of posters not the quality of posters here.
PS: For many here there are codes (acronyms) used to shorten the typing. Really no different than the usual lol, lmao, wtf, imho, imo. Do not be afraid to ask what shortcuts/code mean, allow yourself to learn. E.g., When you see the code OT at the beginning of a post it means Off Topic. The poster is telling other posters that she/he is posting to another[s] posters on a personal or asides post that is not relevant to the threads topic. I just wanted those who do not understand OT or notice it, to understand it and not criticize the poster that they cannot understand what she/he is saying. With the OT code it means skip this post if you want it is not on subject.
Likewise all can cut down on the hubris by labeling there posts as OT, if in fact it is. All should be able to post their thoughts and make friends and post personal asides, without criticism, because such posts are not hubris at all. But criticizing others posts (as contrasted to challenging ideas, theories, and sharing information which are the heart of a crime blog), on topic or off is hubris. I should know because even I have contributed hubris at times, try to recognize it, and try to always apologize.
Look forward to reading all your posts, here and there *lol*, where ever they land. I am just going to go with the flow and let threads self actualize. (Voting didn't work, a bad idea by me creating hubris. My apologies).
Bless you cw...I take back every bad thought I have ever had about you.
Imiginary smiley face.
Pinecone they didn't even need to use a sniffy dog.
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 9:38 pm
All their dogs are busy sniffing for truffles, I guess.
There's still bloody evidence out there somewhere under the snow. I doubt today's knife is the weapon, but it is something that should have been found before the cops even thought about confiscating knives from RS's kitchen. From which, we now know, they did not find the murder weapon.
a2: "how strange is it that RS' lawyers requested that LE search again for the murder weapon in the underbrush around the house, and then actually found it themselves, right where they said it would be?"
-----------------
Exactly - how convenient that his lawyers were whining that the police hadn't searched in a 'specific' area - and then hey presto, knife found?
Makes me think RS knew what happened AFTER the event, and now he's desperate to point out clues that might absolve him (especially as he must know his fingerprints won't be on the weapon). Therefore he's still a scumbag who tried to cover up a murder. Meanwhile, the Kercher's have to spend Christmas still not knowing exactly what happened to Meredith, or who attacked and killed her. I'm sure their Christmas will be a million times more painful than anything the suspects will have to endure. At least the gruesome threesome didn't lose a precious member of their family in a horrific drawn-out murder.
--------------------------
I see the huddled masses are still wanting a lynching of the privileged accused.
I'm not huddled. Are you huddled, Soozie UK?
It's your choice. Huddled masses or wretched refuse.
Pinecone, I just don't know who did what at this point. I know that you are 100% cetain of your theory, and when I get to 100% cetainty, I'll stop asking questions,too.
Geeez, certain and testy, too!
Reposting from disqus yesterday. Seems others are here are now asking similar questions about what next in this investigation and where it is going.
coyotewaits —Yesterday 08:02 PM
Loz —Today 03:21 PM
"yes, I think she'll get away with her crime. RHG, what is he getting out of protecting her though? He could well land her in it. He's already admitted to being there.
ah, maybe she is innocent after all."
This always bothered me also Loz. Given in the back of my mind I have never been able to quite shake off as you say, that someway, somehow AK and RS were involved.
But as you say, with all the evidence they have on RG (and his lawyers have to know it and perhaps more) why is he not naming AK and/or AK & RS. It's baffling. The only thing I have been able to shake loose from my feeble neurons is that he isn't naming them because 1) they really weren't there "when he was" or 2) if he outs them, he knows they will just out him back and say together (2 against 1) yes, RG killed MK while we were smokin' and lovin' in another room.
If number 2) is close to the truth it explains why the three of them maintain a conspiracy to not tattle on one-another. They have everything to lose and certainly nothing to gain.
Rhonda —Yesterday 09:37 PM
"If number 2) is close to the truth it explains why the three of them maintain a conspiracy to not tattle on one-another. They have everything to lose and certainly nothing to gain."
I think we have a B-I-N-G-O here folks......of course just my opinion.
RobertM —Yesterday 10:05 PM
That conclusion is MORE TRUE for AK & Rafe then it is for Rudy. In fact, I fail to see how its in Rudy's best interests NOT to directly implicate them. After all, as Piecone can now glory in, the real, HARD, evidence, both physical and DNA is ALL Rudy's --SO FAR, of course. As his lawyer, i'd looking at him and saying, you got to come up with more than that, I've got bupkis to work with here. And the trial will be a bench or judges' trial, utlizing a much more wide ranging standard of evidence than could possibly be seen in the US & UK. As seattleite points out, part of the rationale for keeping Amanda in prison is her statements to Meredith's friends & police on Sat., & Sun. [Plus of course ILE went out and got WIRE-TAPPING warrants right away.] In the US, whether any of that or NONE OF IT would be admitted to trial is dealt with in preliminary hearings. Much of what has leaked would fall under the NOT ADMIT category.
So, given that there's hard evidence and broader circumstantial evidence, why Rudy is holding back from naming Rafe and/or Amanda is a real "yellow" here.
coyotewaits —Today 02:56 AM with 1 point
This reply is to parent post http://
truecrimeweblog.disqus.co...open_thread_t...
and RobertM's reply to the Rhonda post following it at
http://
truecrimeweblog.disqus.co...open_thread_t...
in thread view only.
Robert concluded his post asking "So, given that there's hard evidence and broader circumstantial evidence, why Rudy is holding back from naming Rafe and/or Amanda is a real "yellow" here?"
I have asked this same question over and over. My only logical answer needs help from our friends in Italy, (fran, belle, middie, damien pls cmebck). But this is my thought. In this stage of the Italian CCP process it is still only the equivalent of the interrogation/interview process of POI (persons of interest) in USA CCP. Until an arrest and formal charges and indictment is imminent there is no plea deals offered to just POI in the USA (in Italy they already call them suspects and can detain them). So if we are in a sort of complementary stage of the investigation in Perugia, it is that ILE are trying to gather more evidence, especially against AK and RS but without tipping their hand as to what they have. By getting each suspect to talk in interrogations they just hope to learn more a piece at a time and to break down more and more each suspects story. (e.g., just why is it reported they are going back to the HOH and look at a foot print (the heel or the trainer sole?) or something else. Because they have gleamed something in these interviews that a re-forensic examination might uncover new hard evidence.
Thus they are not tipping their hand with offers of leniency to the one suspect they have dead to rights for a M1 charge. When they finally have got all they think necessary to pull the plug and issue arrest warrants with charges, then they will top off their case with "here's the deal Mr Rudy, tell us all you really do know and we can offer you............!". By that time they will think fairly confidently that they can take down the other[s] with their forensic evidence even if Rudy fucks up his testimony of truth (the deal) in the trial from the defense attacks. So then the judges and jurors will be swayed by the whole story the LE has put together, not just some story by a known petty drug criminal of Afro ethnicity.
This is why I feel it is going to be a long time before this case goes to arrests with a scheduled trial date. PS: I also do not think RG has told his lawyer any more truth than he has the investigators. I don't know about RS and AK in that latter regard and have no opinion or guess. Coyotewaits has to wait again and again. Dang it!!!
Your questions didn't offend me. a2
And I hope that the people that lean on the police (whoever they are)and the victim's family and the people of Perugia will stop suspending dibelief and ask why the police would come out just days after the crime and say "we have so much forensic evidence we will solve this quickly"; "case closed"; "extreme sex crime"; "extreme rent theft".
They did catch the murderer fairly quickly though the collateral damage has been expensive, painful, and it seems unending.
I have no doubt if they had anything solid on RS or AK they would be crowing to the skies about it.
I haven't said one discouraging word about the police but the time has come for them to do their job and STFU.
I'm not 100% sure of anything. I like to keep an open mind. I can only comment as and when 'facts' come out. Then I'll change my mind yet again depending on what's 'new'.
We are all speculating, that's all we can do until more comes out. Nothing is set in stone and to stick to only one theory doesn't leave much room for further discussion. I change my theory frequently, especially when yet another piece of 'solid' evidence is disproved!
----------------------
No, I understand that, Pinecone. And to be honest, a lot of your postings have made me rethink some issues. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
I just don't know yet, and this situation seems odd. I don't want to lynch anyone. Just thinking things through.
I haven't said one discouraging word about the police but the time has come for them to do their job and STFU.
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 10:08 pm |
Yeah. Especially that Mignini clown.
Repost from disqus:
muddy —Today 05:07 AM
Interesting stuff in the Times today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...ews/world/
eur...
She said "Mez" - Ms Kercher's nickname - had never been at Mr Sollecito's flat, where the knife was found. Il Messaggero said she appeared unaware that Mr Sollecito has claimed that he, Ms Knox and Ms Kercher had cooked together in the kitchen of his flat.
Mr Mignini reminded Ms Knox that when first questioned at Perugia police station as a witness the day Ms Kercher's body was discovered, she had told other witnesses she had seen Ms Kercher lying next to the wardrobe with a wound to her throat which had cause her to die "in slow agony". She had given a similar description of the scene to Marco Zaroli, the boyfriend of Filomena Romanelli, one of two Italian female students who shared the cottage with Ms Knox and Ms Kercher.
Although Ms Kercher's body was found on other side of the bed, police forensic scientists have concluded that it was dragged there, and that she was in fact murdered in front of the wardrobe by having her throat slit while on her knees. Asked how she could have known this if she was not there, Ms Knox began to cry and refused to reply.
------------------------
Can we trust that this is fact or is conjecture OR leaked false description? Myself, I would be very circumspect of this item as fact (I have my reasons that she was stabbed where she was found and was on her back, about no blood on her legs, etc. see another post I previously made).
In other words, maybe the leaked info on the position of MK when she was stabbed actually came from AK statements and not from empirical evidence gathered at the crime scene. So the way this got leaked was who ever in the police interview rooms that was privy to the interviews and leaked info to the press heard or reported this way.
Friends said (hearsay) Amanda said MK was killed in front of the wardrobe (she didn't say MK was on her knees). The room is so small that as she lay on the floor adjacent to he bed, her feet are closest to the wardrobe. (See death scene photographs). LE confronts AK in her interviews about her saying this to the friends and asks: Why did you describe MK's body as being in front of the wardrobe, when you clearly saw her next to the bed when we broke the door down and you were there?
Duh? Weak question. AK got one glance into the room, police blocked her from entering (cs) and RS pulls her out. My opinion remains; LE is fishing to uphold their own theory on circumstantial evidence only and trying to entrap both AK and RS into more contradictions. It is classical investigation techniques being used when LE's have weak forensic evidence on a suspect. That is also why I discount her PL story. It was under extreme interrogation stress where hundreds of innocent people confess; believe me they do (endless documentation).
This is one of the reasons why in USA the supreme court has defined the Miranda rights (Miranda vs. USDJ, some year in the 1960s) which I am sure Italy does not have. Miranda basically says LE must clearly state and document to a suspect that they have informed suspect of the right to remain silent, the right to a speak with a lawyer before any questioning, etc. etc.) Yet USA LE still often skip around this all the time, not caring that the information they gather under duress will not be allowed in court. Why not care. Because they want information to gather witnesses and solid forensic evidence that only the suspect (if the right suspect) could know, leading them to more critical data on the crime.
Sorry, correction for the Times URL link. Muddy had it correct. I corrupted it when I copied the post.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3067558.ece
I haven't said one discouraging word about the police but the time has come for them to do their job and STFU.
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 10:08 pm |
And then we would bitch about not getting any information,,,aaawww such a lose lose situation...notice "situation" ....gotta love that Amanda.
From the Times in quotes, my comments between quoted paragraphs.
"Mr Mignini reminded Ms Knox that when first questioned at Perugia police station as a witness the day Ms Kercher's body was discovered, she had told other witnesses she had seen Ms Kercher lying next to the wardrobe with a wound to her throat which had cause her to die "in slow agony". She had given a similar description of the scene to Marco Zaroli, the boyfriend of Filomena Romanelli, one of two Italian female students who shared the cottage with Ms Knox and Ms Kercher."
Does the LE have a recording of AK making these statements about seeing...lying next to wardrobe (not kneeling).....with wound to her throat? Otherwise hearsay. The friends could be adding the wound to the throat because by the time of their interviews over the 2nd - 4th the throat wound was common public knowledge.
"Although Ms Kercher's body was found on other side of the bed, police forensic scientists have concluded that it was dragged there, and that she was in fact murdered in front of the wardrobe by having her throat slit while on her knees. Asked how she could have known this if she was not there, Ms Knox began to cry and refused to reply."
Bad Times reporting. The body was not found on the "other side" (what ever that means) because one side of the bed was adjacent to the wall. (See crime scene photos). The body was found adjacent to the bed with her feet at the wardrobe end and her head toward the wall with bed nightstand or other small table end. Please forensic scientists, please leak the exact empirical evidence she was on her knees? Direction of knife wound? Knee prints on the floor? Hand prints on the face?
"She appeared similarly "confused" when confronted with the testimony of Robyn Butterworth, one of Ms Kercher's fellow British students at Perugia, who said that at the police station Ms Knox had appeared "strangely unmoved" by Ms Kercher's death and "proud" of having "found" the body. Her lawyer said Ms Knox had "exercised her right not to speak" for the rest of the interrogation."
So what? Everyone here on this blog has speculated that this is rather guilty looking behavior. Is it? I could likewise conjecture that it is shock response and a basic need calling out for attention and comfort and that no one was providing her any because they too were in complete shock and RS was separated from her because LE first suspect them while still at the CS on the 2nd. When LE suspects multiple POI the absolutely first technique is to separate them for interviews. A vital necessity.
"Police believe Ms Knox accused Mr Lumumba to cover up for Mr Guede, the third suspect in the case, whose bloody fingerprints were on Ms Kercher's pillow and who has admitted being at the cottage during the murder while denying he committed it himself. Sources close to the investigation said it was striking that Ms Knox never mentioned Mr Guede at all, "as if he did not exist", when in fact they knew each other and had exchanged mobile phone calls before and after the killing."
Already commented on this; disassociation under stress and duress can cause one to create fantastical ideas.
"Corriere della Sera reported that Edda Mellas, Ms Knox's mother, and her former husband Kurt, Ms Knox's father, were having problems finding rented accommodation in Perugia because "no-one wants to rent to anyone linked to the Meredith Kercher case". Ms Knox's parents, who have vowed to stay near their daughter until the case is resolved, are at present lodged in the village of Mantignana, near Lake Trasimeno, 15km from the town."
Well if this is accurate and it probably is, we at least know that AK's parents are still at hand and supporting her.
Friendly town Perugia is, nonetheless. Of course, I can't blame ordinary sorts of people, having been overwhelmed with Italian video, TV and print coverage which characterizes RS and AK as psycho lover/killers in a soap opera drama, as to already drawing their own conclusions.
Fair trial? Not in Perugia, or Italy that's for sure. But then some poster here earlier tonight did point out that AK & RS had to prove their innocence?
Really? Is that the system in Italy. You're guilty until you prove your innocence. A European Union country? I didn't think so. Please correct me our Italian posters.
Rhonda:
No...I would like to see documents...and the demonization of Amanda has been a big part of the problem. Hey, if she is guilty-hang her high--I couldn't care less--but as the whipping girl for the police and prosecutors it looks at least as of now--she is more of a distraction to resolution than resolution itself.
"she is more of a distraction to resolution than resolution itself."
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 11:59 pm | #
That's for sure...sorry have to laugh on that one....
so that makes her guilty of what??? being a distraction??? Awww youth..
Oh, forgot to note.
"Sources close to the investigation said it was striking that Ms Knox never mentioned Mr Guede at all, "as if he did not exist", when in fact they knew each other and had exchanged mobile phone calls before and after the killing."
This seems to be our first re-affirmation that there were cell phone calls between RG and AK before and after the killing. IMO this would only be confirming cell phone call access, from cell phone vendor records that their respective numbers were called. Thus they did know each other numbers, implies they had some previous contact. I've always throught this and RG already confirmed it. I think RG was RS and AK's drug source. There could be call records between RS and RG. It's what we don't know that makes it all the more puzzling as to the roles of AK and RS.
However, we do not know the circumstances that AK has never mentioned (voluntarily?)RG. This again is very bad reporting from the times and or the "a source close to". I mean, really? What a reported statement. What do you mean Times reporter? What did the source mean? Was she asked the question or not? Or did she just not come out and tell, oh and by the way I know Rudy, he sold RS and me, hashish.
Gawd, how can we make any sense out of your reporting?
Rhonda:"so that makes her guilty of what???"
I don't know. I was hoping the police and prosecutors would know after 40 some days of intense investigation.
Them damn cell phones will get'em every time....let's remember...we do not know all ....though there has been many leaks ( true or false) in all of our various countries...never is "everything" leaked....we may think so but it isn't true. Be patient my dear coyote... I have faith they know more then we do....and with so much public scrutiny, I hope they hold it close.
s'ite: as usual you bring up excellent points, and i could join you in commenting on the demonization of amanda, and it is true. the word amanda means one thing in Italy, she's to suspicion as cher is to music.
but taking a look at the another way this discussion could go: amanda is a demon. she is the absolute central link in a complex crime. she refuses to tell the truth as she knows it. she is acting like a baby doll in trouble with papa. she is callous and unemotional when it comes to the victimzation of a peer in an environment where trust is pre-supposed. she is not just denying involvement, lying, and shirking her responsibility to do the right thing, she continues to abuse the victims love ones with her superficial drama and she has created her own legacy of self-indulgent shamefulness. as far as i'm concerned: she continues to murder meredith.
(AND: someone OBVIOUSLY planted the knife.)
Can Meredith's parents request assistance from Scotland Yard via proper diplomatic channels?
I agree, Rhonda, they know much more, and they only need to reveal enough to keep their asses in the prison huts. Every night is a little colder in there. And Christmas will be NO FUN AT ALL, andtalk about a fucked up way to start the new year...well, there ya have it.
She needs some cashmere leggings and sox.
It could be that we about to see a change of tack from RS, it was him who hid the new knife as part of the clean up and his lawyers were informed.
Maybe.
Xin: Good points...you have been around the courtroom and you know that the "atmosphere" of public opinion is important (even the deciding factor" in cases.
But with one very, very, very good suspect with literal blood on his hands garners very little attention on this blog and the newspapers (the Google search average on this case has gone from 1100-1500 news stories to about 100 stories since his return to Italy--think the entire international press has lost interest...nah it's just Rudy does not give the opportunity for saliciousness, misogeny and xenophobia as Amanda.
Repost from disqus:
Kermit —Today 09:02 AM with 2 points
Hey everyone! An inspection has been going on in Via della Pergola today (maybe it's still on).
A knife has been found in the bushes, but it's a dull, round kitchen knife which probably has nothing to do with the crime (item "D" in the video below). Also, outside, additional blood stained hankerchiefs / tissues have been found (item "C"). Also, there is video of the inside of the house.
I have to update the first houseplan. The photo of Amanda's room in the first PPT is Amanda's room, but clearly empty (it was strange for me that there are no books, etc.).
In the video, you can clearly see her things, her guitar, etc.
http://news.centrodiascolto.it/v...05/d=2007-12-
18
Strange she seems to have no wardrobe / closet. Also detail of the small bathroom. There IS a bidet.
-----------------------------------
Loz —Today 10:56 AM with 2 points
but kermit, in your ppt floor plan of the crime scene (2 ppts ago) you showed where the wardrobe was. and actually, I think it was beside the door but it wasn't clear. In fact MKs body was by the bed/wardrobe in its final position. but not in the position AK described?
look at the vid agan, the wardrobe has white/painted white doors, near the radiator. to me, don't know though it looks to be in the diagonally opposite corner to the bed. I will check your ppt to see how it compares.oh crud I deleted it. please have you got it again? sorry kermit 
it doesn't look much like a butter knife to me.
thanks for the video it's great.
Unlike the CCTV, it's defo not a reconstruction of what the forensic officers found?
I don't wanna get into another ski-mask/car bumper fiasco!
---------------------------
coyotewaits —3 seconds ago
One thing I note is that it sure doesn't look like AK's bedroom is cleaned up. I mean how can you bleach every where when there are books and papers all over the desk and clothes all over the bed and floor. This story about a bleach clean up of AK's room is BS. There might not have been any prints there but it wasn't cleaned up.. No prints = she hardly spent any time there in the past two weeks.
Second: Loz, keen eye. The wardrobe is in the opposite corner from the bed corner. The bed is adjacent (in the corner) to two walls, the long side of the bed to the wall with the radiator below the window. Adjacent to the wall space to the left of the radiator and window is one side of wardrobe which back is to the opposite wall from the head of the bed.
Thus when found on the floor covered by the duvet, her head would had been towards towards the night stand adjacent to the head of the bed (not shown) and her feet would have been towards the radiator/window direction with the wardrobe just to the left of her feet. Her right side would have been parallel to the open side of the bed. An easy position if she was on her knees facing the radiator to drag her backwards after a knife blow and drop her upper torso and head to the floor after only two to three feet of dragging.
I'm thinking forensic LE may have observed blood flow on the floor from in front of the wardrobe to the spot where her head & neck was dropped to the floor. Or she might herself tried to crawl back, I wouldn't speculate. But this makes sense if in fact she was killed in front of the wardrobe and then moved.
The question is, what is the blood pattern evidence. Again we don't know and police haven't told. Why. They don't want her lawyers to know so they can advise her interview answers to questions about her talking about MK being found next to the wardrobe.
But with one very, very, very good suspect with literal blood on his hands garners very little attention on this blog and the newspapers (the Google search average on this case has gone from 1100-1500 news stories to about 100 stories since his return to Italy--think the entire international press has lost interest...nah it's just Rudy does not give the opportunity for saliciousness, misogeny and xenophobia as Amanda.
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 12:51 am
***
That is exactly what burns me up when I read someone calling RS a scumbag, and they've never heaped insults on the killer, Rudy. There seems to be an agenda other than finding out who committed the crime.
Are people so trusting of media reports that they become convinced of a person's guilt in the absence of real evidence? Has the world dumbed down that much?
Also, ace in the hole. I think the cops and judges are getting their palms greased for "informed sources" statements.
One additional note. Remember how so many people mentioned the covering of the body by a duvet was an act of contrition and regret. (Others observed it could be, if there was a cleanup, that it was so they didn't have to look at her body. They could have just closed the damn door.)
But here's another thought. I recall they said her head was resting on a pillow that had RG's bloody hand and finger print on it. Ah ha! If she was killed on her knees facing the radiator and dragged back to beside the bed, how did the pillow get there under her head. "Well it just happened to be lying there". No it didn't it was placed there by a person who had very bloody hands. An act of contrition?
Or was it a fact that her head wasn't on the pillow. That the pillow was just in the room somewhere? Help please?
A truly great and instructive movie.
coyotewaits begins to trust the LE again that it "is" doing its job the way LE is supposed to handle suspects. As in UK, USA, so as in Italy.
I am obviously beginning to appreciate what I left behind three days ago, HaloScan. I am a fast learner of new software apps, online or not.
Obviously because I am moving posts from disqus to HaloScan not vice-versa.
Naw! That's not the reason cw. Admit it. It's because your favorite posters are over here.
coyotewaits begins to trust the LE again that it "is" doing its job the way LE is supposed to handle suspects. As in UK, USA, so as in Italy.
coyotewaits | 12.19.07 - 1:17 am | #
Do I misunderstand you? Are you saying the USA would treat suspects the same way the Italians are treating AK and RS?
from disqus earlier today. Just so the historical record is republished here for quicker reference.
Kermit —Today 09:30 AM
Okay, whoever out there has felt the local ILE didn't do a good investigation, I'm ready to pay my dues and join you. THERE's SNOW ON THE GROUND! The crime occurred a month and a half ago and now they're finding more blood stained hankies???!!!! It's frustrating, indeed.
Now, the little conspiracy theorist on my shoulder jumps out and asks, "why did RS's lawyers suggest a couple of weeks ago to go back to the underbrush under the cottage, to find "the real murder weapon"."
If knife "D" was there all along (even if it turns out to have nothing to do with the crime), some inspector should be fired.
------------------------------------
annarbor —Today 09:42 AM
Kermit, I wondered the same thing about RS' lawyers--they seemed so specific about looking at the underbrush around the house. At the time it seemed crazy, because I was sure that the grounds had been scoured for evidence immediately after the crime. Ha!
You have to wonder if this could aid the defense. They can say that much of the evidence collecting was bungled and cannot be considered reliable...
-----------------------------
Loz —Today 11:16 AM
You have to wonder if this could aid the defense. They can say that much of the evidence collecting was bungled and cannot be considered reliable...
unfortunately maybe. BUT if the forensics they took / they did take at the time were sound?
Also, I had been following the mccann case and that brought up some interesting questions regarding the mccanns possibly disregarding forensics that are acceptible in the fresh Leslie Molseed & S.Lawrence case. well that's to do with dna i guess.
But all I am saying, is that yeah it's good to get to a crime scene fast. but what about forensics years after?
------------------------------------
Loz —Today 11:10 AM
I disagree. on CSI they frequently do 2nd sweeps. fresh eyes. and also, in light of new information.
so, I disagree.
Do I misunderstand you? Are you saying the USA would treat suspects the same way the Italians are treating AK and RS?
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:21 am
By all means, they do in cases like this. They just don't allow leaks to the press so you never hear about it. Until of course something like DNA evidence later exonerates the suspects that have been found guilty and haul off to the state prison; then you find out when the civil lawsuits fly and cities and counties start paying up Millions $ to former convicted defendants with tax payers money.
OT)) You should google the Chicago Commander Burge cases in the 80's lawsuits going on right now, or the current band of brothers off duty and on duty cops in Chicago shaking down suspects for their drug money etc., or just beating up innocent persons in bars because they are drunk cops.
Mayor Daly was on such a hot seat, he was States Attorney when Burge and his detectives did their deeds and complaints were filed at Daly's DA office and nothing done.
So just last week Daly announced his new Police Superintendent. First time in four decades it wasn't someone who came up through the ranks of the troop. It was a white, whistle clean FBI Agent in Charge from Philadelphia named Weis, 49 years old.
Yup, same ole techniques. Maybe not as rough in UK and Italy as in USA. :-(
Dickie Daly (son of Mayor for Life and current Mayor For Life)"corrupt" say it ain't so CW.
Imaginary Smiley Face
I grew up in Chicago.
Or was it a fact that her head wasn't on the pillow. That the pillow was just in the room somewhere? Help please?
coyotewaits | 12.19.07 - 1:16 am | #
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...k-
germania.html
Google translation:
In the house of the police scientific crime has identified the imprint of a bloody hand of Guede, on the pillow next to the body of Meredith. Traces of his DNA were later found on a vaginal swab performed during the autopsy of the student.
I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them.
Hey we're back to easy discussion.
Pinecone said: That is exactly what burns me up when I read someone calling RS a scumbag, and they've never heaped insults on the killer, Rudy. There seems to be an agenda other than finding out who committed the crime. Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:12 am |
Pinecone, I believe I'm the one who used that expression, but at no time directed towards a specific person.
On the last Haloscan blog (before Disqus) I said: "Let us hope that justice will be done and - while respecting the rights of the accused - that whoever the scumbags are who participated in each criminal segment of the terrible evening of Nov. 1, (and possible post-murder criminal segments, i.e. cover-up), that they respond for their crimes."
Kermit | 12.11.07 - 2:31 am |
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...66135668042897/
I stand by that. It may be one person. It may be various. It may be one or more persons involved in each crime. But, especially while the coverup of each crime is perpetuated (because any "accidental" crime is now being covered up in a very conscious way), yes I think whoever is responsible is a ... scumbag.
That doesn't mean that as a suspect, society (both Italian, European in general, and the "Anglo-saxon" world) should afford each suspect the right to not incriminate themselves. That's a great right.
But what I think as a citizen is that there are scumbags out there who aren't easing the suffering of Meredith's family, and who did nothing to avoid or ease her suffering.
Kermit,
It was not your general comment. It was someone who called RS a scumbag, as if they know that to be true. The only known scumbag is Rudy.
Pinecone:
"only known scumbag" is so literary...you are not Ann Rule are you?
Double Imaginary Smiley Face(s)
Morning (Europe) news roundup:
http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?....pic1?
ID=228601
Referring to AK's interview last Tuesday: "The investigators had listened to her on Tuesday to clarify her movements the evening of the crime. The American girl had said that she was at the home of her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, reading a Harry Potter book in German, that she smoked a joint and then made love with him. But investigators did not believe her and yesterday were more than seven hours in the house where Meredith Kercher was killed to verify details of the new story, looking for cracks. And a crack has opened, a small but perhaps enough to collapse the entire framework: in Via della Pergola the forensic detectives have found the book that Knox had said that she had brought with her to Raffaele's house. An inconsistency that the student should try to explain. One more element to solve this very intricate puzzle."
Hi Seattleite, we're all in different timezones. I saw some interchange of yours with Robert M from the middle of the night (my time) a couple of days ago, only yesterday.
Thanks for defending hourly service professionals. I'm not a lawyer, but a computer auditor / consultant. We all have to make a living.
The mother-in-law of a colleague of mine thinks like Robert M: she keeps asking him (my friend) when he'll have to return all the money he has billed!
No, I've never thought of doing legal support work. Kind of hard to do it virtually, I think you have to be there. That said, I feel at this point that I could walk down the streets of Perugia like I had been there all my life.
More from the il Giornale article:
http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?....pic1?
ID=228601
(The finding of the "new" knife is old news from yesterday - Frank at Perugia Shock claims it was RS's lawyers who found it, I don't know if that is fact or intended rumour -, what's of interest is the RHG lawyer comment)
Yesterday during the inspection revealed two additional issues. The first is the discovery of an serrated knife with a rounded tip in the cottage garden. "It's an object which is irrelevant to the investigation and incompatible with the weapon of the crime," according to the investigators. "It would not be good even for cutting butter," confirms Walter Biscotti, Rudy Guede's lawyers. By the knife there were also a couple of blood soiled handkerchiefs, which could also have been thrown there by some passing.
Kermit:
For me your work has been immensely valuable...both for the facts and the sense of Perugia. Obviously what they call information technology is your calling. I will bet in your profession you have to take many, many pages with little columns make sense. Kudos to you.
The Potter book thing in this article is either the work of an on strike WGA member or the greatest double McGuffin in the history of crime.
Even better will be why they think an alleged murderer is working to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter.
..walking to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter.
...you are not Ann Rule are you?
Double Imaginary Smiley Face(s)
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:04 am | #
I'm Dirty Harry, but I'm trying to keep the language clean.
End of todays il Giornale article:
Another mystery concerns the tennis shoe imprint found in November near the Mez's corpse by forensic detectives. It seems that the footprint is gone. "I don't know", said Saverio Potenza, a Raffaele Sollecito legal defense team consultant, "if this is linked to a mysterious evaporation, which I do not believe, or to the fact that perhaps it could have been a little manipulated and then trampled." The hypothesis is that the marks left by the Nike shoe had been there were but had been ventilated ((?)) by the investigators. In the request for an inspection, the police scientific stressed that the objective was to gain "from other angles the photographs of the soles of shoes in the scene of the crime" unless if the chemical agents used for previous surveys had compromised their presence.
OT)) reply to: seattleite | 12.19.07 - 1:47 am
Dickie Daly (son of Mayor for Life and current Mayor For Life)"corrupt" say it ain't so CW.
Imaginary Smiley Face
I grew up in Chicago.
I'm sorry seattleite. I can't say it. Please do not make me a hypocrite by saying it. BTW is not "politicans" and "corruption" an oxymoron. Or is it spinmeister's and politicians.
Surely they lifted those prints! Were all the prints we saw in the news videos merely props, like the cctv photos?
They'll probably hold them in jail for a year and then offer to let them out with "time served" if they plead no contest to accessory after the fact.
I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them.
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:54 am
Thanks Pinecone for the clarification on the location of the pillow.
If you mean in the USA (can't hold in jail) you are correct. You can't even put them in jail without an arrest.
If you mean in Italy, well the press made it clear, Italian law allows a suspect, determined by a judge (probably similar to the bail process in USA) to hold a suspect in jail for up to a year.
((OT: kermit--need to find another image of the MAGICAL MYSTERY knife found today. Tried and tried and that link will not load up. I'll hunt around in Ital papers to see if I can find another picture.
Mucho gracias.))
..walking to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter.
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:26 am | #
the book or the guy?
Don't get me wrong, Pinecone, ref my confidence in own scenario (various persons involved). I think that nothing is set or clear yet: we've all been surprised by the twists and turns of this case - and I fear there will be more.
Yesterday I was quite dismayed by the visit to the house. The round knife and hanky may or may not be relevant, maybe they were planted maybe not. But the "evaporation" of the shoe print is baffling to me. We all have seen images of a clear shoe print from the initial inspections. That dried blood wouldn't have disappeared. I'm concerned about police custody of evidence. Anyway I'm off to work. Go to bed!
Kermit:
Thanks for all your help. Cataloging document CDs...must bill.
Xin: lol
Didn't you just know Harry Potter would make an appearance. The translation of the article referenced by Kermit calls this crime a "rebus" but here is the US it is known as Rubiks Cube (sp?)
Seattleite said: Must bill
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:47 am
Seattleite, my problem is that I'm a good consultant (I think), but a lousy businessman.
End of todays il Giornale article:
Another mystery concerns the tennis shoe imprint found in November near the Mez's corpse by forensic detectives. It seems that the footprint is gone. "I don't know", said Saverio Potenza, a Raffaele Sollecito legal defense team consultant, "if this is linked to a mysterious evaporation, which I do not believe, or to the fact that perhaps it could have been a little manipulated and then trampled." The hypothesis is that the marks left by the Nike shoe had been there were but had been ventilated ((?)) by the investigators. In the request for an inspection, the police scientific stressed that the objective was to gain "from other angles the photographs of the soles of shoes in the scene of the crime" unless if the chemical agents used for previous surveys had compromised their presence.
Kermit | 12.19.07 - 2:29 am
----------------------
I posted on disque, not worthy of moving over, my take on going back to the CS after 45 days for another CSI sweep. "Won't those little bleach and blood eating bacteria and other tiny varmints do their own little clean up job." Oh but they found a HP book. Ah ah, takes a big varmint to digest that now.
i avoid all rebuses and rubrics and rubiks. it's better that way.
Investigators need to find out if someone has been in the house or been seen throwing bloody knives into the brush. like how clean was that knife, etc. the footprint photo should hold up, the crime scene was not secure. witnesses to the photo etc. unless they are idiots.
Xin:
You saw the crappy photos the "experts" billing out at $500-$1500 US took at the Spector trial. If I am not mistaken, Henry Lee brought a frickin disposible camera as part of his forensic arsenal to the Spector house. Sheesh.
googlish translation
today's LaStampa
http://tinyurl.com/ywqgld
Pinecone: indicates reliefs were taken--"scene profoundly altered"
copy:
The scientific police [have] seized clothes, postcards and a brush
GUIDO RUOTOLO
Poor Harry Potter. He has become a 'find' kept in a faldone, that the evidence against Amanda Knox (and urge Raffaele), the investigation of Giuliano Mignini pm on the Meredith Kercher. And 'success last night in the Corsican Police Scientific inspection in the house of the "death". Amanda, in the dramatic days of interrogation,[...} explained that the evil evening of November was the first home of Raffaele [Sollecito], had smoked a joint, seen a movie, made love, read some 'pages of Harry Potter , in the German version. And the morning after, [she] returned to [her] home to get a shower and chang[e]. Where [she] then noticed that something is wrong, that the door was open, that there were a toilet stool, there was blood ... But last night, precisely, investigators and technicians who Scientific and again for the last time in the survey made of Meredith, Amanda, Laura and Filomena, have found that volume, Harry Potter. As ever, the text is finished in the Pergola 7? It seems a particular insignificant, but is a further spallata credibility, all'alibi Amanda and Raffaele.
New tracks and new clues emerge from the house of the "death" while others it is as if evaporassero. Not surprising ends of the yellow Perugia. Also the other day Amanda had argued that was not entered the house Philomena. Well, there is a stamp on a postcard, falling from the wall and ended on the floor, which presents a "visual compatibility" with the imprint of the shoe [of] Amanda. It 'something new yet to be confirmed by the technical point of view. From days, weeks, the defenders of the boyfriend of Amanda, I urge Raffaele, asked to conduct new research to the next house on Via della Pergola 7, seeking the weapon of the crime, and here and as if by magic, on the day of new surveys in the cursed house, check between the sterpaglia a knife and two pieces of paper bloodied (fresh blood at first sight). It is a shame that this knife is good only to spread butter on a slice of bread or a fig or cut a slice of watermelon. From day, the defenders always urge Raffaele asked the probative on 'bloody imprint of a shoe next to the body of poor Meredith - that the laboratories Police Scientific is the Nike [of] Raffaele - and here that the inspection yesterday of Police Scientific, and spends forty days after the first reliefs, that 'footprint is as if you had volatilizzata. Deteriorata. And evaporando filed unspeakable suspect to the ground and disturbing questions among experts defenders of suspects.
The day after the "karakiri" (Commentary Investigators) Amanda Knox, before the interrogation pm interrupted at a certain point at the request of its defenders, one of the lawyers, Luciano Ghirga, expressed [concern] for the leaks, because "riservatissimi content of interrogation not yet transcribed, have become public domain. And then notes that "during the inspection of the Scientific Police, the scene inside the apartment is profoundly altered since the first access. It does not add other Ghirga. The defender Raffaele urge, Luca Maori, on the other hand, insists disappearance impression of the bloody shoe: "There is no more. And 'only natural causes? ". It 'obvious that the defenders of calchino urge the hand because that' footprint is the evidence (for the moment) that inchioda Raffaele scene of the crime. Index that - they hear from the Police Scientific - is not for nothing called into question because "were formally 'first regular relief and photographic exhibits biological and fingerprints taken from the Corsican the first inspection.
What is more, under the Nike Raffaele and bloodied on the floor there is a "star", a hallmark of the Nike shoe. Going back to Amanda, the other day, he insisted on a particular: "Back home, I shower stools. Walking barefoot, I trascinai in my room with the pad. Who knows, perhaps the relief of Scientific find traces of Amanda on that pad bloodied? On the day of inspection are broken between sterpaglia a knife (with the tip and round without seghetto) and two bloodied paper handkerchiefs. For the investigators there would be no connection with the case were probably thrown by someone passing through.
You saw the crappy photos the "experts" billing out at $500-$1500 US took at the Spector trial. If I am not mistaken, Henry Lee brought a frickin disposible camera as part of his forensic arsenal to the Spector house. Sheesh.
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:58 am |
the best was the crappy video of that IDIOT Spitz firing off a at something with the cops in the background yelling shit like be careful. that's online somewhere maybe courttv.
yeah henry lee and his funky cammy and yellow stickie notes. but i was there when he got schooled and it was awesome.
copying from disque:
---------------------------
Critical correction to my comments above about the video of MK room. I now stand corrected on my first observation.
--------------------------------
Kermit —Yesterday 11:27 AM
Loz, you asked for the old internal houseplan. It's here.
http://www.mediafire.com/?4fxx2y2g5h9
Keep in mind that Amanda seems to have no wardrobe. The bathrooms aren't necessarily furnished correctly. Kitchen needs to be pushed back a meter.
-------------------------------------
Loz —Yesterday 11:37 AM
thankyou
-------------------------------------
coyotewaits —11 minutes ago
Hmm, the photograph and the video do not seem to line up right for me. I have to take another look at the video. Certainly your drawing, Kermit, looks correct by the photograph. Going to the video again.
------------------------------
coyotewaits —3 seconds ago
I was dead wrong on MK's bedroom, Kermit. The wardrobe is on the same wall as the head end of the bed. Meaning that the wardrobe is just above and to MKs, left (upper torso, head) and her feet facing the door and wall where the desk sets. The photograph and video now sync to your drawing.
When I first viewed the video several times I thought it was a pan of room right to left. Instead I now realize it is a edit cut after filming the wall above the head of the bed at the blood on the wall location, then a pan to the ceiling wood truss support then a starting to pan down adjacent wall of the bed and suddenly a CUT. Then next scene is panning the window, radiator below the window (in center, not to the left of that wall) and then to wardrobe. Except for the window location being in the center, your drawing is exactly correct. Still wonder if there was a blood trail from in front of the wardrobe to by the bed. But in this case she was only moved ~two feet head wise. At this point I can see a struggling self move as well as the possibility she was moved there by some one else.
"panning the window, radiator below the window (in center, not to the left of that wall)"
should read (in center, not to the right corner of that wall)
from disqus:
Kermit —Yesterday 11:33 AM
The bathroom issue is confusing. I recall that both AK's and the victim's blood were found on the bidet. As regards RHG, in my initial comment accompanying the floorplan I said that probably Rudy's depositing of evidence took place in the little bathroom beside the victim's room. Later on one of the Italian TV programmes I saw, it said his DNA was in the big bathroom (on the other side of the house). Did he go that far to be more discrete? In any case, in another programme, it said that both bathrooms have provided evidence, but that may only refer to the cleanup effort.
-----------------------
Loz —Yesterday 11:46 AM with 0 points
The RHG go potty doesn't make sense.
But seems to me RS reported the toilet bowl as clean because he may have been referring to the bloodied bathroom nearest MKs room, while AK may have been talking about the big bathroom. But RHG wouldn't he know which one he pottied in? It means his story doesn't add up.
---------------------------------
Kermit and Loz. My recall is the feces was found in the large bathroom between Laura's and Filomena's rooms. At the end of the house closer to the front door. Also it is Filomena's room where the window was broken and the height from window sill to ground is 3 meters....that side of house faces the country side and is the steep drop off side, with the overlooking terrace off the kitchen and parallel to MK bedroom and the bathroom at that end, where the blood specks were found. Your drawing continues to be quite correct except now for the bidet.
Xin said: kermit--need to find another image of the MAGICAL MYSTERY knife
xin | 12.19.07 - 2:40 am |
Xin, this knife image has got to work
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net...?
ce51f19563.jpg
Don't forget to swap in the new release (not version) of the Aerial Map Powerpoint.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ch9bvj1xkud
It doesn't change much, but amongst the minor modifications, I animate the "via Bulagaio" "escape route". In addition to my inference that under one scenario either RS or RHG could have gone that way and then returned to their homes, another reading could be that one of the criminals (whoever he/she/they may be) could have gone that way (walking/running/or in the famous white car), dumped the phones in Sra. Elisabetta's garden, and kept on going off into the countryside, or towards a highway interchange, and from there ... to points yonder ... Milan? Dusseldorf?
from disqus post:
annarbor —Yesterday 11:53 AM
- Perugia, Dec 18 - "All I can say is that the shoeprint isn't there anymore, I believe it was very latent, very faint and therefore not visible anymore" said Saverio Potenza, expert for Raffaele Sollecito, while leaving the house were Meredith Kercher was killed.
OMG--How can this be? In a case this important, how could this be allowed to happen? Certainly this evidence, KEY EVIDENCE, geeez-- the only real, forensic evidence linking RS to the crime--has been preserved!
This makes No sense. They weren't planning on basing their case against RS only on the actual flooring in the house? And you're right
"but now the expert claims that the lack of shoeprint could have an impact on the position of Raffaele Sollecito"
This is tooo crazy...If this could happen, you are right, Kermit. Who knows whether someone has been in the house to tamper with evidence there. In light of what they are finding today, you have to wonder about the "Forensic Experts" that have been in charge!
-------------------------------
So here was RS lawyers insisting they go back looking for a knife, search the grounds.
Does anyone wish to speculate that the people with connections got someone into that house to clean off the shoe print the one and I believe only real hard forensic evidence against RS. So get them to go back to the house and be embarrassed that that shoe print with all the matching we saw on TV would not be there and.........?
Oh boy, my prediction, RS and attorneys will be appealing for release soon, conspiracy to erase evidence or not (naw! it was those little blood bugs). It's getting interesting. We may be down to two soon. RG and AK anyone?
annarbor —Yesterday 12:33 PM
I am completely stunned at the notion that, because they have allowed the shoeprint evidence to degrade(!?) that it may affect the case of RS. Certainly they know the evidence was there, and have done a fair amount of testing at this point.
I can't help but wonder if the Solecito money have helped to degrade this key piece of evidence. I know that may seem far-fetched, but so does the notion that by allowing the shoeprint to degrade, the case against RS ( or whoever the print came from) is weakened....
That knife they found yesterday looks 'wider' than the one already found, so is that th murder weapon when the other knife is said to be 'too big' (in length or width).
Anyway, here are some knives that are 8" and thin: filleting knife http://www.cookware.co.uk/shop?code=2098 salmon knife http://www.premiercutlery.co.uk/...000_knives/
3016
bpcl —Yesterday 12:48 PM from disqus
I would expect RS's lawyers to say anything they feel in order to try and remove suspicion from their client. This crime was committed on Italian soil and just because we do not like their way of doing things vis-a-vis our own countries is tough luck. The fact of the matter is, that AK and RS are caught up in their own lies. He says that he was on his computer most of the night, from what is it, 9:00 pm until 1:00 pm. AK says that they ate at around 11:00 pm, and then watched a movie and what else, made exotic love. That is a conflict and everyone knows it. The Italian system does not allow for someone to obfuscate the truth and hide behind a lawyer at the present moment. And that should be respected. They are on their own sovereign soil and they can try this case the way they see fit. A young woman has been sexually assaulted, and brutally murdered. They have every right to do what they feel is necessary to bring the criminals to justice. I have stated before, this case will be tried on the forensic evidence and the strength of the suspects alibis or lack thereof. AK says she is innocent as does both RS and RG. Each of them will have their day in court to prove their innocence.
-----------------------------
bpcl, good to see your back on both threads.
Do you really believe, or know, that it is guilty till proven innocent has the method of adjudication in Italian Law?
Robert M, thank you for the psychology stuff. I am reading it right now. Just wanted to comment that WOW she needs a lot of work if true. At least she'll have a long stretch in which to do it!
"Even better will be why they think an alleged murderer is working to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter."
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:22 am
As far as I can see, the article's pretty clear in Italian. It's not that AK walked to and fro with the German Harry P. book, but that she claimed to have been reading it at RS's apartment. And now it has been found at the cottage. So this part of her "alibi" is no longer credible.
[Of course, AK will doubtless claim that she was reading it at RS's place and then took it back to the house on the morning of Nov 2 (along with her empty washing bag).]
"I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them."
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:54 am | #
Articles 9 and 14 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) require that prisoners must be brought to trial and the proceedings completed within ‘a reasonable time’ or be released on bail.
The UN Human Rights Committee has stated that: What constitutes "reasonable time" is a matter of assessment for each particular case.
I guess in this particular case even one year would be regarded as "reasonable time" because of the brutal nature of the crime.
Releasing any one of the suspects at this time would pose a grave risk to the community, because the killer could strike again.
Also Robert M, having a 'masculine' aspect wouldn't necessarily mean that it is murdurous?
And what I find really interesting is on that day that the male in amanda 'came out', she was actually wearing a skirt...
I am not sure that she is 'fractured', my guess is she's just a lying socio/psycho.
also, some women just have 'highr' testosterone levels than other women. While the hormone can affect psychlogy, I don't know that it'd automaically make you a rapist or murdress.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3073340.ece
Harry Potter clue?
Bizarre
Great posts coyotewaits
LOZ, what I'm talking about is a STATE OF MIND and its EXPRESSION in BEHAVIOR. Not testosterone levels or whether she does or does wear a dress. And no, in this theory animus as male energy does NOT = murderous. Here is the wiki link to a decent summary of Jung's position: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Ana...ical_Psychology
But it is a fact that more males commit murders than females. Period. Whether testosterone levels are higher than normal for the murderer at the time of the murder is, of course, a question that can be asked but never answered by field work. And even monitoring testerone levels of convicted murderees in prison is skewed by the fact its an all-male situation. You might ask, well, how high above normal is their T level? That can be answered at least. I'd suspect that the average T level for the GUARDS would also be higher than the general norm. What I haven't seen is any newish work on female socio/psycho paths from the Hare followers, that is addressing questions such as are women S/Ps the same as male S/Ps and any differences perceived re behavior are gender/cultural milieu construct specifc, or do they differ fundamentally from the gitgo. What Hare did was approach these issues as a social scientist, working from his knowledge & experience as a clinician. This is the way to go.
The previous link took you to the bio page on Jung, though that has a nice set of set-off links to in-depth articles such as this one. For all my issues with Wikipedia, its a good starting place for basics that one should follow-up on from other sources. The social science methods applied by Hare need to be applied to the several Jungian concepts, and the DATA SHOULD LEAD TO MODIFICATIONS. I've not seen this happen in the Jungian field; he's been treated too much like a guru, or even a literary master. NOTE: Thomas Moore of Soul Mate fame is 5th or 5th generation Jungian. See the first Jung wiki link for details.
re Harry Potter book. Amanda mentioned this same book and her plans for it in her blog posting. Go to Steve's First Post on this case, for which Halo I are the comments. There are mirrors of the site available through links there. Someone needs to give her the Italian version now.
Do ALL Euro High Profile Crime Cases start off as Tragedies, and then end up as Farces? I smell a bit of Gilbert & Sullivan in the Mikado here. This will work better if you "hear" Peter Sellers voice as Inspector Closeau when youread the judge's line: JUDGE - So, you say you were reading Harry Potter at [lookalike] Rafe's place the night of Nov 1? AK - Yes, the German version. JUDGE - So, how did it get back in your room at the Death House. You know that's an Inconsistency. First its one place & then another. How can that be? Perhaps it NEVER left your room, eh? eh? eh? AK - I brought it back with me on morning of Nov 2 so I walked it back with myself, my clothes and the empty trash bag. I wanted to continue reading it when I did laundry, but seeing the washing machine was being used, I put it in my room and then tidyed that up a bit.
Really FARCE
(1) the TIMES quotong La Stampa: "while, in theory, Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito could have brought the book with them on the morning of November 2, when they arrived at the cottage to find - by their own account - Ms Kercher's bedroom door locked and a window smashed, this was unlikely. [And just what would make it unlikely? eh? eh? eh?. Perfectly normal, se my response as "Amanda" above. The Harry Potter clue was “another blow to the credibility of their alibi” the paper said. [Really? How so?]
(2) then there's this, also "discovered" 40 days on: new search also discovered a footprint belonging to Ms Knox on a postcard found on the floor of the room used by one of the Italian flatmates (absent at the time of the murder), where the window had been broken. Police suspect the window was smashed to simulate a break in. Ms Knox has sworn in testimony that she did not enter the room in question. ,b>[Whoa! That's a big postcard, I mean really big to get at least 7 inches of a sole printed on it. And just how do they know, after less than 24 hours, that that's AMANDA's shoe sole? Hhhhhhmmmmm. So was it the whole sole, a tip, a heel, a side & what was so special about it? and Where was it found. AND WHY WASN'T IT FOUND ON THE INITIAL ROOM SEARCH???]
You can dress people up in CSI mufti, masks gloves & all, but you can't make them do their job correctly, it seems, especially in a room with a broken window that has to be linked to the murder. SHEESH.
SECURE ALL ASPECTS OF THE CRIME SCENE. THEN CATALOG THOROUGHLY EACH PART OF IT WITH PICS & ITEM INVENTORY. Then recheck that you've done that & recheck again.
really really FARCICAL---->from the TIMES' last paragraph: Police also removed “bloodstained items of clothing” apparently overlooked in previous searches. Whose clothes? Where found? and WHY ONLY NOW?
Thank-you Robert for herding us all back in one place! This is the only place with a continuous flow of information and thoughts on Meredith's murder.
I am following another murder case (Michelle Young) where the investigators apparently left quite a bit of bloody items too. LE was in the home for 13 days and even missed an avulsed tooth of Michelle's. She had been brutally bludgeoned to death. The initial days of any investigation are just so crucial to a case. Sometimes shoddy investigations make justice almost unattainable. We have seen it so many times, and it is so very frustrating.
Andy T: Book location
If Amanda had not already admitted to going to the house once and then again the morning of police arrival-- I guess it would be significant.
Also having spent an hour yesterday looking for some work papers for someone in a room where they were sure "they had left them" and after futile search found the papers in a another office but a different floor of the same building I may be predisposed to believe people don't know really know where they leave things sometimes.
Does she only have one Harry Potter book? I thought were like a zillion of them in that series.
More bad clean-up by that mastermind Amanda. You know what the defense guy would like to say to the prosecutor: "This is what you got on my client??!!"
I am not an expert about judiciary issues but your criticism of the way of dealing of scientific Police in Italy is not completely correct. Italian Forensic Police (RIS, ERT in some cases) is more efficient than in other countries, including the US, as far as we know from statistics.
I can say that regarding police and magistrates corruption is as more common in the South of Italy than north of Rome.
From what I know, people can be detained in prison only in case of crimes which have a punishment higher than four years.
The issue regarding cautelary custody (custodia cautelare) begins to be dangerous if the Police or the media system are or become biased. There has been a long debate going on in Italy regarding privacy but from what I see the only prevention obtained regards phone calls and sms tapping.
I suppose the media leaking can become an useful method for lawyers the influence the public opinion.
All in all, the Italian system is far too slow and sometimes not harsh enough when dealing with penalties, in my opinion.
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/
...3ba99c53b.shtml
They still talk about the shoe. The shoeprint has got a star on it, Raffaele has got a similar shoe. The print is faded, RS's lawyers say it is much deteriorated to be analysed further. That's what they are contesting but the shoeprint is still there, from what i reckon.
ERT has taken from the house other clothes with blood on them.
The accusation refers about Harry Potter's book; defence replies that Raffaele said that the morning after the murder Amanda put all of her stuff in his backpack and left the house
The postcard with the footprint on it probably fell down as the perpetrators rummaged Filomena's room, says the Police
I am not an expert about judiciary issues but your criticism of the way of dealing of scientific Police in Italy is not completely correct. Italian Forensic Police (RIS, ERT in some cases) is more efficient than in other countries, including the US, as far as we know from statistics.
I can say that regarding police and magistrates corruption is as more common in the South of Italy than north of Rome.
From what I know, people can be detained in prison only in case of crimes which have a punishment higher than four years.
The issue regarding cautelary custody (custodia cautelare) begins to be dangerous if the Police or the media system are or become biased. There has been a long debate going on in Italy regarding privacy but from what I see the only prevention obtained regards phone calls and sms tapping.
I suppose the media leaking can become an useful method for lawyers the influence the public opinion.
All in all, the Italian system is far too slow and sometimes not harsh enough when dealing with penalties, in my opinion.
Headline: Girl Reads Book. Takes Book With Her to read MORE!
xin,
uh oh. just saw on the other haloscan that "italian woman" (i.e. AK's cheerleader) finds your comments amusing. I tried to find where you commented on her "blog" but couldn't. If I get the gist of her snarkiness, you found her blogs to be pro-AK. So did I...matter of fact, the last comment she posted on her own blog plants seeds about Meredith's sexual past in a rather sneaky way. At least that's the way I read it. Sure hope Meredith's family doesn't chance upon the Seattle/Italian Woman. Her stance might just cause them even more grief now that she has decided to bring up the victim's sexual history...
http://www.agi.it/italy/news/200...en0063-
art.html
the death caused by group violence
http://www.agi.it/italy/news/200...en0041-
art.html
MEREDITH: METAL DETECTOR ON TERRAIN OUTSIDE HOUSE (this morning)
That first article is especially interesting, Loz. Although it is far from specific, it implies some very strong evidence, aside from the forensics (such as they are at this point!)that we know about, that links all three to the murder...Reading it also drives home once again the horror of that night.
It's funny how Knox remembers they had sex that evening, but RS can't be sure. It doesn't quite tie in with the frenzied 'shopping for lingerie' scenario. They'd only been together for 2 weeks, and RS can't eveb remember if he had sex with her or not! Doesn't sound much like a wild sex life to me.
And how is Knox explaining why she said Meredith had never been to RS's home - when it turns out that her, RS and Meredith all had dinner at his flat? RS claims this is when he 'pricked' Meredith's finger, yet not long before, he had claimed he barely knew Meredtih.
Once again, if these kids are not totally stupid, why would they say things which they KNOW will be disproved?
----------------------
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
..._119163883.html
..An examination of Sollecito's computer revealed that it had not been used just before and after the estimated time of death, from 9pm to 2am on the night between November 1 and 2, thus contradicting the student's claim that he had been working alone on his thesis that night.
--This is the first time I see that Rafe said he was working on his thesis. This Italian newspaper I thought was considered a good paper, but I doubt that this reporting is correct.
And how is Knox explaining why she said Meredith had never been to RS's home - when it turns out that her, RS and Meredith all had dinner at his flat? RS claims this is when he 'pricked' Meredith's finger, yet not long before, he had claimed he barely knew Meredtih. soozie UK
Yeah, they really need to coordinate their stories.
I can't locate the link right now, but in yesterday's Repubblica, RS' dad was quoted as he "clarified" RS' statement. He said that, of course, Rafe had meant that he cooked dinner at the girls' flat since MK had never been to his house.
He didn't explain why MK was helping him cook when they barely knew each other...
Re the German Harry Potter book
RobertM: "...[And just what would make it unlikely? eh? eh? eh?."
Seattleite: "Headline: Girl Reads Book. Takes Book With Her to read MORE!"
I know, I know, it does sound farcical, but I think ILE have made their conclusions based on RS's statements (+ also AK's statements).
As Fran has pointed out AK supposedly put all of her stuff in RS's backpack and left the house.
This is why LE have concluded that it is "unlikely" that she took the HP book with her. I also think that, in addition to this, they have also asked AK what she took with her and she has not mentioned the book.
I know the above is all inference from the media reports, but IMO this really is the only way the story makes sense.
I'm really hoping that Italian LE turn out to be more competent than their counterparts in Portugal. There the main problem seems to have been Goncalo Amaral (who's like a figure out of Zorro).
An examination of Sollecito's computer revealed that it had not been used just before and after the estimated time of death, from 9pm to 2am on the night between November 1 and 2, thus contradicting the student's claim that he had been working alone on his thesis that night.
Geeez, I think that its entirely possible that RS' hard drive might have degraded in the last month or so--then we'll just have to take his dad's word that his son was working all night on that computer.
The computer again? I've read at least six conflicting accounts (police, lawyers etc) that he was, wasn't, was, wasn't, was, wasn't on his computer. And his lawyers insist they can 'prove' he was on it, and the police say they can 'prove' he wasn't, and my head is spinning with what to believe and what not to believe!
----------------------------
ann arbor | 12.19.07 - 12:48 pm "Yeah, they really need to coordinate their stories."
I'm sorry to say it Ann Arbor but I don't think that would necessarily be in their interests...
I keep thinking of the comment made by Micha on the other thread:
"In keeping with most such cases in Italy, her stories will continue to change in keeping with her lawyers whims. The more convoluted and confused the reports...the better for her defence."
Fran, what's your opinion? Was Micha right?
i really thought that RS was most likely innocent. If he did anything, it woould be the cleanup, and he was not aware that he was cleaning up after a murder.
But, that diary he wrote, specifically about the excuses for the knife in his flat with dna from knox and meredith-- really has made me reconsider.
I don't think RS lawyers are that smart cause they shouldn't have let him write that diary.
Chris, if Italians have a weakness, it's that they talk (write) too much.
Kermit................Wow....Thanks for the powerpoint presentation...Well done my friend..for sure your an above "average Frog"..........(I had to go and download a 60 day trial of Office 2007 to view it-Well worth the 1 hour download time)
"In keeping with most such cases in Italy, her stories will continue to change in keeping with her lawyers whims. The more convoluted and confused the reports...the better for her defence." AndyT
Hmmmm. Well, that doesn't make much sense to me. I assumed that the more they talk, the deeper the hole they're digging.
BUT...having said that, there are definite differences in the Italian way of doing things(that's not a criticism!). I guess nothing would surprise me at this point.
AnnArbor said: I think that its entirely possible that RS' hard drive might have degraded in the last month or so--then we'll just have to take his dad's word that his son was working all night on that computer.
ann arbor | 12.19.07 - 12:55 pm |
Good to see you here, Ann. I'm a computer auditor. What the ILE would have done upon seizing the computer (a Mac PowerBook, I believe), is make a copy of the hard disk, probably removing it to do so (actually, Mac's are great, you could probably safely read the disk as an external drive, without having to take it out of the computer case, and feel safe in a legal sense too). This avoids the damage to forensic data which a startup routine could potentially cause.
The ILE would then proceed to examine the copy of the hard disk through tools which only read data and don't write to the analysis disk. Documenting everything they do, very carefully.
I believe I read somewhere where RS's legal team has their own "preserved" copy of the disk, which they would be using to counter prove any conclusions of the state prosecutor.
If all that is true, the only automatic or manual degradation of the disk data which could have occurred is what would have occurred between Nov. 1 night, and Nov. 6, when RS was arrested. (e.g. logs being written over, browser histories erased (or modified), certain caches reused or erased). If RS is guilty, and he sensed he may be arrested or his computer seized, he probably would have had time to manual make modifications to some easy to get at information in those 5 days. However, we're not in an MS-DOS world any more. Both Windows and Mac-OSX (which is really just a Unix variant) are very complex, and non-application level hanky-panky would probably be obvious, or difficult to do.
That said, I have the feeling that maybe he didn't consider the possibility of being arrested (lingerie shopping, standing in line at police station, etc.). Or maybe they decided to have a last hurrah before heading to preventative arrest.
Meman said: the powerpoint presentation.
meman | 12.19.07 - 1:55 pm |
Look at it alot before your demo license expires! BTW, make sure you have the version accessed with the link above in this blog at: Kermit | 12.18.07 - 6:21 pm |
Kermit:
If a Powerpoint can be hot...that is hot!
Coyotewaits,
I must confess, I do not know what the adjudication process is in Italy. I feel very confident that in the not too distant future, AK, RS and RG will be charged for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The Italian authorities have done a masterful job to get these three possible suspects to contradict each other; and they have. It is nice to see RS's lawyer running around and trying to explain to everyone who will listen, that the planet Earth is really flat and not round.
Justice for Meredith is what is paramount here because she was left to die a painful death. If these three suspects had anything to do with it (which I believe they have), I do not feel sorry for them. For me, what is most important, are the words that come from their mouths, because in reality, that is all we have to go on here. The forensic evidence will be presented one day, and when it is, then we can discuss their possible culpabilities.
seattleite said: | 12.19.07 - 3:27 pm |
Yeah, for better or worse, that is the power of images. I don't want to get OT and into politics, but back in early 2003 Colin Powell used a PowerPoint presentation in the UN full of neat drawings of mobile chemical weapon plants on trucks.
If I had some time, I'd try to develop some of the specific scenarios, as a sort of visual proof-of-concept walkthrough. But ... no time. Maybe over Xmas at some point.
Hi, Kermit. Yeah, glad to have found my way here!
My posting about RS hard drive was actually a misguided attempt at cynical humor. It seems as though the forensic evidence against RS seems to be strangely unusable...I keep thinking that his family's wealth and social standing may be helping to degrade some of the evidence against him.
BUT...I did find the information that you posted very interesting and reassuring. So thank you.
I still think that there was no way that any of these 3 anticipated the international attention that MK's murder has received, and I doubt that they were expecting to be arrested. I think that they were banking on a small town, small time, investigation--Quick and dirty and done. OMGoodness, were they wrong.
You crack me up sometimes seattleite..ahhh life is good....powerpoint and points(Disqus)!
Kermit | 12.19.07 - 3:39 pm If I had some time, I'd try to develop some of the specific scenarios,........Hey ....dont forget,I only have 60 days .........
did anyone know that Jeff Tripoli, a friend and fellow student of Amanda Knox (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:nSzeT-
fXr_4J:www.veoh.com/videos/
v1446743KWMRhT7D+profile+story+%22Amanda+Knox+%22&
hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=49&gl=uk) is the editor of http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=4&
gl=uk
I think the press knew. wonder if any UW student saved documents from her facebook acc?
AnnA, sorry, my cynicism receptors weren't switched on. Yeah, the RS legal team is pretty well funded and stocked. There are three lawyers who all appear together wherever there's a mission to be carried out (TV interviews, house inspections, etc.), in addition to technical specialists.
I think it was one of the technical specialists who spotted the knife yesterday. I saw additional TV coverage today, both the knife and 2 blood soiled hankies were found in the the entrance ramp area (I'm going to recheck that, to confirm it - in any case the house wasn't within the camera's field, ie, it wasn't within meters of the house). If you recall, there's a handrail on the edge of the road, they were just under the handrail (like I said, I have to confirm that), within the house lot, but they could have fallen from hands at street level, or from some specialist's hands right there
sorry, he's the editor of the UW dialy paper 'the daily'.
Results from Reuters concerning the crime:
http://www.reuters.com/article/
w...931807120071219
Well, Meman, I'll see what I can do. It causes my better half (my half-orange in Spanish) great consternation when I work on those ppts. Yeah, I'll get motivated before your license flickers out.
seems the times got a quote from her facebook:
This story from the Times in the UK quotes Knox's Facebook profile: "I don't get embarrassed and therefore have very few social inhibitions."
from http://216.239.59.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=9&
gl=uk but it doesn't say which article. But i searched and it's this one http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2821154.ece
from the Peruga Shock blog-- I found this interesting about the cell phones.
2) About the cellphones it appeared clear that who has thrown them away has walked through the little door in the walls that takes from Corso Garibaldi to the Parco Sant'Angelo. This door is in the path between Raffaele's and Rudy's houses, near Raffaele house but VERY near Rudy's house, almost in front of it. I've found out that that evening the door was locked and they opened it only at 8 of next morning, so the murderer kept cellphones with him during all night
Not to worry, Kermit. It was a pretty feeble joke on my part.
Yeah, between his lawyers and father, RS seems to have a very active spin machine...
Result from the Harry Potter clue.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3073340.ece
Anonymous | 12.19.07 - 4:17 pm |
--that was me posting, didn't log in.
analysis from AK quizzing by Magistrate
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3067558.ece
Loz | 12.19.07 - 4:17 pm |
Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden."
Amanda Knox described on MySpace how she found the house in which Meredith Kercher was murdered:
“We run into a very skinny girl who looks a little older than me putting up a page with her number on the outer wall of the university. I chat it up with her, she speaks English really well, and we go immediately to her place, literally two minutes from my university. It's a cute house that is right in the middle of this random garden in the middle of Perugia. Around us are apartment buildings, but we enter through a gate and there it is. I’m in love. I meet her roommate Molly. The house has a kitchen, two bathrooms, and four bedrooms. Not to mention a washing machine, and internet access. Not to mention, she owns two guitars and wants to play with me. Not to mention the view is amazing. Not to mention I have a terrace that looks over the city/countryside. I put down a down payment. I’m feeling sky high. These girls are awesome. Really sweet, really down to earth, funny as hell. Neither are students . . . they are desperate for roommates because the two they wanted disappear[ed] all of a sudden"
"That is exactly what burns me up when I read someone calling RS a scumbag, and they've never heaped insults on the killer, Rudy. There seems to be an agenda other than finding out who committed the crime." --Pinecone
I think it's that Rudy is a lowlife, and never pretended to be anything else.
BCPL, the Harry ptter clue story was linked to earlier above, and I riffed on its "cluelessness" in a two-set, semi-sarcastic post. seattleite then posted her own riff. Which leads to:
EVERYONE!!!!!! ---> Please try to remember where you wre when you stopped ready last, and try to pick up there when you comes. I know its a pain, but it'll avoid re-introducing stuff already linked & discussed. HOWEVER and you know there's always a "however", many of the papers, especially if its a "news" day like Monday, will do ongoing updates of the original story, adding material. Checking back into a story is recommended and if it appears to have been updated, do please post a note an dthe new link. Thanks!
ANDYT what other Haloscan page are you referring to? Not Steve's correct, but xin was over there? If another blogger, can you post a link?
"Asked how she explained the presence of both hers and Ms Kercher's DNA on the kitchen knife thought to be the murder weapon, Ms Knox replied "I don't know, I can't understand it". She said "Mez" - Ms Kercher's nickname - had never been at Mr Sollecito's flat, where the knife was found. Il Messaggero said she appeared unaware that Mr Sollecito has claimed that he, Ms Knox and Ms Kercher had cooked together in the kitchen of his flat."
RS just can't seem to keep himself out of trouble. I think AndyT said, Italians just cannot shut up.
RobertM,
I thought it might have been linked. I am still trying to get adjusted to this new site if you will. Thanks for the update, and if the other two are redundant as well, then I do apologize.
LOZ as you are the one who's linked to the UW student newspaper story on journalism ethics, could you be the "official" UW monitor? That is, use their web-site search function and create links for all of their stories on the case, and then post the links here? (Skip summaries, just make sure that the date is part of the lead in to the link.) I never thought to check in there myself, and really, we should see what's happening.
Has the Seattle Post-I created a separate blog on this with comments, or do all the comments appear at the end of each separate online story? Has anybody been reading them?
[I really have to proof my typing more.]
To Rudy it’s going to make little difference if they hang him with one rope or two. So I don’t see any great incentive on his part to further implicate AK/RS and/or anybody else before trial, or even afterwards. Amanda has already taken one bullet for Rudy (targeted Patrick), and neither AK nor RS will utter one syllable about Ru-dy. RS and particularly AK are clearly on some pretty thin ice right now. So all it would take is some semi-credible story by Rudy; true or untrue, implicating AK & maybe RS , and they will most likely both sink up to their necks. That is if the preponderance of evidence doesn’t get them first.
The only person I think who can reach Rudy is his step dad, and maybe help Rudy clear the air about what happened that night. If Rudy’s step dad is on board, I hope he gets frequent visitation rights
BCPL the first link to the "group murder" story based on the OTHER judge's report re keeping Rudy locked was just perfect, as we have so little right now in terms of Rudy stories. ALSO, because though referred to as a multi-page summary of the reasons against Rudy's release, you couldn't even say that the reporter gave the "bare bones"! Online the story didn't run 2 full columns!!!
Has THIS report been printed by any of the Italin papers in full???? Does anybody know??? Original source is REUTERS.
Here's the first column:
PERUGIA, Italy (Reuters) - A group of people actively participated in the murder of a British exchange student in Italy, found dead last month with her throat slashed, a judge wrote in a document released on Wednesday. ... The third suspect, Rudy Hermann Guede, was extradited back to Italy on December 6 after fleeing to Germany after the murder. Investigators suspect all three may have been involved in the killing and say they have evidence that all three were in Kercher's flat the night she was murdered.
Judge Maurizio Bufali wrote in a document confirming Guede's arrest that his testimony -- in which he claimed to have scuffled with an unidentified killer just after Kercher was stabbed -- was "full of decisive falsehoods". The judge said the investigation had found "the presence of more people in that house at the moment in which Meredith was killed, and the quick departure of all of them after the tragic conclusion of the evening".
"(There was) a group participation in the heinous crime in which a passive role does not appear plausible for any of those present," he wrote. All three suspects deny involvement but investigators have pounced upon apparent contradictions in their testimonies. Bufali wrote that investigators had not yet established the motive for the killing, although they had put forward the possibility of sexual assault.
I was startled by this article too, bpcl. It seemed to imply that the court is in possesion of some very strong evidence aside from the forensic evidence that we know about... but on a second read, there isn't really anything concrete. They are once again pointing to inconsistencies in their stories, and while i personally find that fairly damning, if cw is right, that will not be enough to charge or convict them.
DLW I dunno. Given that the Cell-Phone Records indicate that Amanda called or was called both BEFORE & AFTER the crime time by Rudy -- and ILE has consistently maintained that these aren't pings but reall calls -- neither AK or Rudy can deny both knowing each & being in contact. Both SHOULD have been pressed/asked about those contacts and their content. But we don't know that they have, i.e. no such set of questions answered or not has been leaked to the media by the ILE. Which I find very strange. Unless of course those questions are among the ones Amanda refused to answer towards the end of her session. Still, her lawyers will have to address them, as does Rudy's lawyers. The problem with answering that A & R have is that they have no way of guessing what the other will say about the content! And yet before the deciding tribunal, their lawyers will have to have answers for those calls, or let the prosecutors paint them as conspiracy set-up & then conspiracy cover-up.
It just seems to me that Rudy's goose is pretty cooked right now, so why NOT be "The 1st of the 3" to do a come clean? He says something like this: It was a drug deal & friendly meet that went wrong once Meredith found out her money was missing, and Amanda & her really screamed and I went to the bathroom and was almost done when I heard this awful noise and raced back into Mez' room to find Mez on her knees bleeding all over and Amanda standing there dumb-founded with a bloody knife in her hand, and then I ..." Getting to the bench first with the best story that delivers the other two is his only hope for a 10 year sentence as opposed to a 20 to Life sentence. I just doubt that his step-father would make the effort, and his lawyers are going to flounder if he won't listen to them.
Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden." chris
yep, that means they didn't get on with the other two room mates. i have always wondered just how 'good' mollys alibi is. it must be. but i got the 'impression' she was only over-nighting elsewhere, perhaps with her b/f as an nly wiitness? I could be 100% totally wrong. and for that I apologise.
Hello, I haven't posted in a while, but I have followed through all the threads.. Hope everyone is well!
This story is still so strange to me. Well, I mean at least the fact that AK and RS have not mentioned Rudy, and vice versa... Weird, Weird, Weird! It makes me wonder if they actually have, but that this is purposely being left out of the press... Who knows.. guess we just have to wait and see what happens next... Have a good night everyone
Loz wrote: Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden." chris
yep, that means they didn't get on with the other two room mates...? I could be 100% totally wrong. and for that I apologise.
Loz if everyone apologises for taking a flyer at an idea the whole blog would be "Sorry...sorry...sorry..." True crime blogging means never having to say your'e sorry...or just once in awhile.
When I read your post it took me back to Rob's couple of inquiries as to the history of that house often rented by young professionals or students. There wasn't much info on it but I thought especially people in that part of town would know that house (it sticks out so from the sat photos to Kermit's terrific ppts) as the "student house" or something.
jenny | 12.19.07 - 5:12 pm | #
RS hs talked about Rudy. Says he never saw him or heard of him before.
they have only written 10 stories. quite surprised by that. and they've assigned an 'Arla shepherd' to it. It's just 'facts' with n emotions. They're being careful. A 'Madison' is quite a vocal defender of Knoxy (my guess is it's her friend) BUT her points are valid so far as I have read, she is just defending a friend. and also 'friends of amanda' Anyway, here they are:
--All three of the suspects may be held for up to two years before being formally charged. -- from 1 article but another says up to a year. ---
the articles aren't worth reading, but if you want to seem just search the daily uw in google.
Jeff Tripoli - 11/08/07
The article reads that Knox put her fingers in her own ears...
--------
ah, he comments. but it's nowt brilliant...
I remember that Middie posted something a couple of weeks ago about Rudy being recorded by LE when talking to his father in prison. He told his dad that he knew who the killer was, but was afraid to name him.
I know that a lot of the posters don't believe that anyone else was there, but there is evidence to the contrary...I still think its possible that there was someone there that was much more hardcore than any of the 3 (not saying they're innocent).
If he is really ruthless, Rudy may well have reason to fear him. Perhaps that is why he isnt naming AK or RS. That would necessitate revealing the truth, including other perps name, thereby endangering Rudy and RS--even in prison.
Oh, Kermit!!! Do some more of that! What a great presentation and yes adding that last little bit of animation was a topper. Geez, that house has a GREAT view & location. You just know that the owner will be charging a top top rate come next July/August, as its now more than a room with a view. Where's Club Chic? can you work that in too?
another interesting article from the UW paper mentoned knox's troubles when addressing the anxieties of parents of tudents going to uni. nothing about rape or murder or mks experiences. that's the only 'bias' i've seen in the paper. but pretty astounding.
I believe knox is lying through her teeth. she's not got did or mpd, that's clear from her writings from jail, her statements, and her convo with her mum saying how it's dumb to deny she was not at the house. IMHO.
with the finding of all this new evidence. the good thing is, RS was clearly there. I wonder what 'molly' (filomena?) has been upto since the ILE left the crime scene until the last few days? was one of her phones dumped in the garden? or was her number on MKs phone(s) in the garden? presuming she had her phone with her, cos that's how postal police contacted her?
ann arbor oh, yes, that "who could Rudy be more scared of then the police" got a couple of presentations towards the ned of Halo2 and at Disqus. I know I did one riff on it, bringing back Mr & Ms CS & the White care. But THANKS! for reminding us about the Rafe tape comment. Really, that's as germane to the matter as the ILE making a bigger deal about what amanda said to her parents. (Though, again, such tapes would not make it into evidence in a US court.)
So--has ILE followed up on that, say in the PM's questionning of Rafe? We don't know. No one leaked that part of the questioning. To me Rudy's behavior stinks of stupidity, or real cunning in that he knows if he sings, no prison in Italy is safe for him. Perhaps we should call this theory The Mob Theory?
I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them.
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:54 am |
ha ha....welcome home to those British residents released from the Yankee torture camp in Cuba after being held and tortured for FIVE years WITHOUT CHARGE!
you grotesque whining Americans make the world a sick sick place.
"Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden." chris"
It was a holiday. Perhaps they were visiting family as was the "boyfriend" of Meredith.
feb 7th, 2007
here are some 'choice' quotes from j.tripoli in the daily, the UW student paper he edits. he's AKs friend who has been defending her as a sweetheart. some say he was her b/f, others say he's gay. he seems like a hetero from these quotes to me, and maybe a pig with a size issue??:
Q: What’s the one thing you’d like to teach your partner in bed?
Tripoli: If you come across someone who’s sexually ignorant, there’s really not a lot you can do to “improve” them within the confines of a random hookup. Unfortunately, the bulk of my sex life hasn’t been one steady source of income, so there’s really nothing I’ve had the time to impart on anyone. Just don’t make me do all the work. It pisses me off.
Q: Does the g-spot exist?
Tripoli: If it does, it’s pretty damn elusive. A lot of girls I’ve talked to don’t even know where it is, so how the hell should I be expected to find it? In general, I’ve found girls don’t like me messing around in there anyway. If there’s a g-spot for guys, it’s pretty obvious where it is, but the hell if I’ll come anywhere close to touching it.
his most interesting quote...
Q: Is it the size of the boat or the motion in the ocean?
Tripoli: I think the more experienced girls find both a necessity. I guess I’ve never really cared how it was for her anyway, so I’ve never bothered to have anyone gauge how I ranked in either department. I keep myself happy, it’s up to her to do the same for herself. As far as guys go, the boat size is irrelevant and the motion in the ocean is painful, so it’s not much of an issue.
Q: If you could switch genitalia for a day, what would you do?
Tripoli: I’d really like to know if girls actually experience better orgasms, because it certainly sounds like they do. I’d probably be a total slut for a day (I’m assuming that I get a hot female body to go with my new hardware). But with my luck, I’d start my period that day, so probably not a lot.
http://celesteflint.wordpress.co...nda-knox-story/
on November 18, 2007 at 3:25 pm5 Mike Spencer
Let me ask one more question about Jeff Tripoli. Why is he representing himself to the media as Amanda Knox’s boyfriend of last year while, at that time, he was a widely self-proclaimed homosexual? hmmmmm? not in his paper he wasn't?
Ah, Sparrow & Chris, I think you are mis-inteprreting what Amanda wrote. Her blog entry was about the luck of finding the house as a place to live so quickly after she & her sister Deanna had arrived in Perugia. The phrase "disappeared" likely means that Molly & Filomena had commitments from two other women who reneged on them by likely not following through on the deposit & wouldn't answer their calls over it. The entry doesn't have anything to do with the Molly & Filomena taking off for the Nov 1 & 2 "holiday".
you grotesque whining Americans make the world a sick sick place.
UK ash | 12.19.07 - 5:46 pm | # .................what a sick sick poster and post.....
Well, LOZ, when I was in college, we might have talked like that [OK, not much like that at all, though it was raunchy], but we did it late at night in the dorm rooms. A guy who mouthed off like that in day publicly we would just assume was having trouble even getting close to the ocean, let alone getting his boat in. But that, ah, was then.
Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 5:56 pm | #
--thank you for herding us all back to this place Robert.
I was aware that Amanda wasn't talking about current roomates. I agree with your explanation that the potential roomates that "disappeared" didn't mean anything--at first I thought it did though.
http://thedaily.washington.edu/a...1/11/
smokinAces
"The action scenes are fantastically gory" - Jeff Tripoli
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...rMurderSuspects
a guide to comments when you're reading knox stories by the paper
(someone posting as 'jeff'. don't know if the email is required to be a UW one or not, so who knows:
Jeff Tripoli - 11/09/07
I'd like to point out that the guy posting as "Jeff" on these articles is not me -- I go by my first and last name when I post.
this is the girl who wrote about the british press' unfairness to AK (herself affiliated with UW The Dail)
http://celesteflint.wordpress.co...r/celesteflint/
About: celesteflint
Full Name
Celeste Flint
Website
http://
Details
Celeste is a University of Washington student majoring in journalism. She's currently the opinion editor of UW's The Daily.
check out 'anons' comment in this article, for another theory:
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...dNewSuspectHeld
an un PC article to say the least about the problem with 'african' immigrant is Perugia from the UW paper:
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...oALargerProblem
Many dealers are illegal immigrants from North African and Near Eastern countries who come not to seek opportunity and security, but easy money and sensory delights...One way they could decisively crack down would be to round up dealers who have illegally immigrated and deport them. If you come to a foreign country simply to break the law, perhaps you should try doing it in your homeland first... *wonders if this would be applied to AK?*
feb 7th, 2007
here are some 'choice' quotes from j.tripoli in the daily, the UW student paper he edits. he's AKs friend who has been defending her as a sweetheart. some say he was her b/f, others say he's gay. he seems like a hetero from these quotes to me, and maybe a pig with a size issue??:
Q: What’s the one thing you’d like to teach your partner in bed?
Tripoli: If you come across someone who’s sexually ignorant, there’s really not a lot you can do to “improve” them within the confines of a random hookup. Unfortunately, the bulk of my sex life hasn’t been one steady source of income, so there’s really nothing I’ve had the time to impart on anyone. Just don’t make me do all the work. It pisses me off.
Q: Does the g-spot exist?
Tripoli: If it does, it’s pretty damn elusive. A lot of girls I’ve talked to don’t even know where it is, so how the hell should I be expected to find it? In general, I’ve found girls don’t like me messing around in there anyway. If there’s a g-spot for guys, it’s pretty obvious where it is, but the hell if I’ll come anywhere close to touching it.
his most interesting quote...
Q: Is it the size of the boat or the motion in the ocean?
Tripoli: I think the more experienced girls find both a necessity. I guess I’ve never really cared how it was for her anyway, so I’ve never bothered to have anyone gauge how I ranked in either department. I keep myself happy, it’s up to her to do the same for herself. As far as guys go, the boat size is irrelevant and the motion in the ocean is painful, so it’s not much of an issue.
Q: If you could switch genitalia for a day, what would you do?
Tripoli: I’d really like to know if girls actually experience better orgasms, because it certainly sounds like they do. I’d probably be a total slut for a day (I’m assuming that I get a hot female body to go with my new hardware). But with my luck, I’d start my period that day, so probably not a lot. - LOZ
oh sorry, here's a link to the choice quotes from AKs friend
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...oyaleSexEdition
Regards RobertM and others including my own about the media reporting on this case being nothing less than abominable and the worst of, if any, being called journalism:
my daughter just arrived today from Europe for the holiday and to join with her husband for a month after six months on the air roads in Europe. She is a paleo-climatogist and geophysicist and a senior post-doc researcher on the European Union's Northern Europe climate projection and impact project. Her work bounces her back and forth to Universities in Stockholm, Vienna, Lyon, Prague and London (she is based in Stockholm).
As we drove in from the aeroport we were chatting about the latest news in Chicago and she noted the international attention (mostly web based) of the local Stacy Petersen case here in Chicagoland. But the point was her comment:
"You just cannot believe the tabloid press and TV news coverage in Europe, all the countries. We think we are crass in the US with our ET, Access Hollywood, and creepy celebrity sheets at grocery/drug store checkout stands.
It is utterly unbelievable what you see and read in Europe. The main tabloid press and even reputable press are hung up on the demand for innuendo, drama and downright maliciousness in their reporting. And I thought Europeans were so cool about being secular in cultural life, open minded, and so above the ignorance of Americans. It's so the opposite"
We chatted on about my interest in the MK case and she noted it's exposure, especially in London, but had not paid any attention to it. It was an enlightening discussion for me about Europeans and my previous impressions of them being more civilized than Americanized westerners.
LOZ!!! You had already posted that Jeff Tripoli "interview" at 5:55 pm. Please try not to double post. Thanks.
As Fran has pointed out AK supposedly put all of her stuff in RS's backpack and left the house.
This is why LE have concluded that it is "unlikely" that she took the HP book with her. I also think that, in addition to this, they have also asked AK what she took with her and she has not mentioned the book.
AndyT,
I wrote what is written on the Italian newspaper Il Corriere della Sera today; they say defence wants to prove that actually Amanda put all the stuff in a backpack and left the house with that, so that the book was brought back to her house.
What I can say about Amanda's defence? I don't think they are doing their best but by the way it is difficult to deal with such confused confession as the one from Amanda
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews...ox-
3fd0ae9.html
Knox's parents are due to visit her, while prison chaplain Sauro Scarabattoli said: "I always tell inmates to tell the truth but to distinguish between that and sincerity which can be a mistaken version of the truth.
article by Tripoli.
was "north of Northeast 45th Street" where AK lived and had to pay for some kind of house-party disturbance?
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...uctCodeRevision
...Recent outbreaks of violence have brought to more urgent light the long-standing problems associated with student life north of Northeast 45th Street. As it stands, the Student Conduct Code does not extend to student conduct off-campus...“[We’re] addressing safety issues for students,” said ASUW President Cullen White. “[Conduct code expansion] will be addressing serious offenses: physical and sexual assault, stalking, and also quality of life issues: noise complaints, vandalism, public urination.”
The potential for legislation in Olympia dealing with these problems has led the student senate to address the problem in hopes of coming up with a solution of its own....“We either oppose an expansion and end up opposing and lobbying against the bill, or we develop our own solution,” said White[ASUW President]. -seems they want to 'avoid' things?-
hmmm which is why AK was still considered a very honourable student?
Chris wrote quoting "tell the truth but to distinguish between that and sincerity which can be a mistaken version of the truth."
What does this mean?
Chris,
ANSA is just a news agency with its own website, not a proper newspaper. Actually it is usually reliable
Lost in Translation
according to J.Tripoli, the 'sex life' at UW, is what attracted him to it? though he seems to have a mature attitude towards it TBF
choice quotes:
"...I came to Seattle to visit the UW campus. I was 16 years old, impressionable and naïve about sex in general...I read the entire section cover-to-cover. I decided then and there...I would one day be a part of the Sex Edition."
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...erFromTheEditor
continued: "...while I doubt that this Sex Edition will cause anyone to move to Seattle — like I did..."
did i link the video of him on the news 'the real' AK? Just to see if he was in that D.Mail article where the pic from that party was posted?
oh soz, totally wrong person, it's a letter from the editor, but says the editor was By Jenna Snavely.
so she's the sex edition editor.
soz!
meman I must be pretty sick to think it is wrong to hold people for 5 years without charge and torture them. One of the blokes who came home today has lost the use of one of his eyes.
Maybe now he can be as blind as the stinking, ignorant Yanks that want the oil for their Hummers and damn anybody who they see as in their way.
PS. I see your moronic Vice-President is not content with just shooting people and has now set fire to his office.
God save Scotland from your Mr. Trump and any other of your degradations. Shame.
Don't bite.....it will drag us down into the quagmire that all these other blog sites end up being. Ignore Please!
UK ash | 12.19.07 - 6:41 pm | # .... You are Not worth the argument...Please go over to the other forum (Disqus)...so I can take a point from you....My last comment to you.......forever
Rhonda I think all the Italian bashing here has already brought everyone down into an American led xenophobic ant of ire.
meman you are ignorant in the true meaning of the word. Like an ostrich.
@ Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 4:34 pm "ANDYT what other Haloscan page are you referring to? Not Steve's correct, but xin was over there? If another blogger, can you post a link?"
Robert, it was one of Steve's. The thread never really got going - just 39 comments. Micha's comment is the last on the thread.
Here's a link to it:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...88471546328686/
@ fran | 12.19.07 - 6:30 pm "...they say defence wants to prove that actually Amanda put all the stuff in a backpack and left the house with that, so that the book was brought back to her house..."
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I think I must have misunderstood the report. I seem to remember, however, the backpack being mentioned before. But I thought the story (RS's story) was that AK left it at his apartment. Does anyone else know/remember anything about this?
@ UK ash | 12.19.07 - 6:41 pm
I don't think this is the place for such comments. As you know, there are many other fora where you can vent your frustrations (say I a British subject).
for reference:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1879
In 2006, she rented a house in Greek Row, an area traditionally home to football "jocks" and all-male fraternity houses, where she could also escape the alcohol rules of the university accommodation.
this is the UW daily article (January 23, 2007) about it huh? http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...uctCodeRevision
Defendant Summary
Court Defendant Number: 1336461
Name Of Record: AMANDA MI KNOX
Aliases: AMANDA MI KNOX
Date Of Birth: 07/09/1987
Language:
Employer:
Case Citations Hearings Defendant Obligations Warrants
Case Number Type Status Filing Date Police Incident Number
202557635 IN CLSE 07/02/2007
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 7:12 pm | #
YES PEOPLE. HIS ARTICLE WAS AND THE UW HAVING TO REVIEW THEIR CONDUCT CODE, ACCORDING TO DATES, WAS IN RELATION TO AK'S PARTAY.
just let me quote tripolis article again:
"“[We’re] addressing safety issues for students,” said ASUW President Cullen White. “[Conduct code expansion] will be addressing serious offenses: physical and sexual assault, stalking, and also quality of life issues: noise complaints, vandalism, public urination.”
AndyT I have found Pincone's recent comments and those it provokes quite an offense to sensibility. I have faith in the Italians to bring about justice in this case, I really don't want to hear lectures on how the American way is best.
I really don't want to hear lectures on how the American way is best. All things considered and especially on a day like today when some uncharged and tortured have been released after 5 years.
Thanks AndyT, I think that's the Halo for the RADAR article update.
What micha was going on about was The Way Things Work in Italy from her perspective as a reident non-Italian, though she didn't say where she was from:
I definitely hope that the US govt. gets involved. Without their intervention...this case will go on and on and on without fruition. Unfortunately, that's the Italian way. They will keep investigating and will arrive at no definitive conclusion. I cannot remember reading a single homicide case in over 4 years (living for the most-part there - in Italy) that concluded in any clarity or justice being served. Blah, blah, blah...On and on it will go...With the facts being splattered and lost along the way until - the media loses interest. This is the Italian way. Read that. Seen it. Have NO faith in it.
micha | 11.23.07 - 1:35 am | #
and semi-reiterating it as the last post:
In keeping with most such cases in Italy, her stories will continue to change in keeping with her lawyers whims. The more convoluted and confused the reports...the better for her defence. In keeping with most such cases in Italy, this will go and on and on without resolution until everything gets so confused that the evidence itself will bring no clear conclusions... Politics and power brokers will ensure that this case is never resolved. The only hope here is if Meredith's family comes to terms with the fact that the Italian's will not find justice for their daughter. Perhaps if UK lawyers and investigators are brought in...then, maybe (but not likely - given how much has gone on) the truth will come out...
micha | 12.01.07 - 10:30 pm | #
But Ash, the two issues are unrelated. And nobody has said that the American way is best (not even Pinecone as far as I recall). I think it's good to be critical of America, but it's also good to be critical of the UK, and Europe. I mean just think of the mess in Praia da Luz !!!
Europe has to smarten up too. For instance, trafficking in people is a pan-European problem, just as big in my view as Guantanamo (in terms of human suffering).
As far as US politics are concerned, my hopes are pinned on Ron Paul.
Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 7:07 pm
Thanks for reposting micha's comments, I had completely forgot about them. Needed the reminder and helps me to see more of what is going on right now (at least what we can gleam from the continuing reports from the Italian media).
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...in3477950.shtml
Jeff Tripoli, a friend of Knox's from the University of Washington told The Early Show co-anchor Hannah Storm that she has been misportrayed in the media as a "party girl."
which is interesting given the article he himself wrote back in january pertaining to AKs party antics....
AndyT thanks mate. I don't think Britian or the EU is perfect at all. This case interests me from the hash implication in it. "I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them." seems to present the US as "better" than Italy. My opinion if you like that kind of chat fair enough.
OT - OT - OT!!!
Put no bets down with your local turf accountant, AndyT. Ron is a sentimental favorite among True/Blue Calvin Coolidge-type Republicans, but his other principles (& he has principles!) won't gain traction with the broad range of voters. He is more likely to go third party, and suck votes away from whomever is the Republican candidate. The Democrat side is more of a horse race with the results at the first turn (Iowa caucuses and NH primary) giving the then leader a clear shot at the backstretch. So, while I wouldn't vote for him in a general election, Paul's clearly expressed stand on the Constitution, pro-habeas corpus and anti-torture would lead me to support any efforts of his in the House to get bills out on the latter two issues--both which Bush would veto, using the pernicious Yoo-addington-Cheney interpretation of executive power. WHICH the US Supreme Court declared unconstitutional in the Truman vs Steelworkers case of 1950 or 1951! But Dick Cheney is unused to having to take NO as the final answer. We shall see.
Well, corruption is always possible, as everywhere in the world, including the US, I'd say.
Loz, I don't think the dates fit. Look at the Mail's article; it talks about AK having a summer party (but maybe they got it wrong!!)
The date of the defendent summary is also in the summer 07/02/2007 i.e. July 2.
But keep on researching !
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=18472#62039
by seattleite | 12.19.07 - 10:34 am
Yes. I keep saying what clean up? The cleanup she did on the morning of the 2nd? Judge [b]Judge[/b] But why didn't you become suspicious right away seeing MK's door closed and locked? AK Though she didn't usually closed her door or locked it I knew she was traveling back home that day and just assumed she closed it for that reason not really thinking anything about it anyway. I didn't bother to even try the door so I didn't know it was locked until later. It wasn't until I went into the bathroom and saw the blood that I became concerned and then starting thinking about why I had found the front door open. So I went back to RS's to ask him what he might think. He came back with me and seeing the same thing I saw we tried her door and found it locked. So next after seeing Filomena's room and the broken window we thought call Mez, and call Filomena just to check. Neither answered (or a strange woman answered and scared us)."
"sheesh, why do you keep asking me all these stupid questions, they are so illogical." Judge "oh never mind. We in Italy just like to conjure up drama scenarios to amuse ourselves while investigating murder crimes. We are paid by the government you know, very low pay."
A word on procedures to UK ash
Here in the States, the arrested person has the presumption of being bailed from jail prior to a trial. But setting the bail is up to judge, based on established guidelines developed by that particular court. Any violent crime usually merits a high bail so as to insure the defendant doesn't flee. With the advent of monitoring devices, the $ amounts have come down, but even there, when the actual cash or bonded amount is usually 10% of the set total, that can be hard for people to make, even if what we consider middle-class, especially if they have no fixed assets such as house ownership, etc. Amanda personally has no such assets. Her Dad & Mom do.
If this was taking place in Seattle, Meredith accused of murdering Amanda, the UK counsul would certainly be more involved than the American one is in Perugia, her father would have to come up with the full amount of 10% of whatever, he'd also have to find a place for her to live locally, and she'd have to surrender her passport, and wear an ankle tracer to boot. But all this comes AFTER she would be charged. Most jurisdictions have only 2 to 5 days to do so after the arrest. Now, if she couldn't make the bail amount, then she'd sit in jail until she could or until trial. But she would be charged, not be in this judicial limbo as are the 3 suspects in Perugia.
And while in jail or otherwise, her court-appointed lawyer would insist that she have no discussions with investigating detectives without said lawyers presence. (Her right under our 5th Amendment.) Most lawyers by this point have advised their clients to STFU period. So to "our" non-Italian eyes, these on-going investigatory re-interviews seem only to be "legal traps" conductd by ILE. As Amanda does have the right under EU to refuse to answer questions, and has so exercised it in part, I'd recommend that she now exercise it totally.
[Some one posted a link with text on the EU Rights Document. Can someone re-find it and either link it here or repost it here?]
Regarding crimes like a murder, it is usual to have a lot of blah blah on the media but no reported corruption (except some known cases of the past)
What Micha is perceiving is caused by some facts:
1) justice is slow in Italy, because there are three degrees of judgement and consequently delays of proceedings; so that you can hear about trials years after the facts, when everything is more difficult to evaluate. there are too many discounts on penalties
2) A lot of political and terror crimes of the past (70s, 80s) like the bombing of Bologna train station haven't been cleared to the public and that is a shame
3) In the past in the South of Italy people didn't want to recognize there was a Mafia issue; there were no big trials concerning about Mafia until 80s. Still now the Mafia is just a giant system which sustain economy and people that it is difficult to go against it
4) there have been so many scandals concerning the ruling class in many ways so that common people is always suspecting something wrong is going on
5) Berlusconi has worked to free himself of charges and he has been succesful in doing that through new laws; some judges hava been politically manipulating the charges against him anyway
sorry "Clarified", not "cleared"
I have to go now: goodnight!
fran WELL CORRUPTION IS UNIVERSAL --> But can you imagine an Italian senior area prosecutor resigning office after having to admit to have an affair with a former employee who was know suing him over harrassment? I don't think so!! But the Att.-Gen of the state Kansas just did that, a person elected statewide too, though its more over the charges of favoritism in employment than over the sex. (Both parties were married). As he said in his resignation statement, "I've held people to high standards and I must hold myself to them too." (I can name about 5 people at the Topeka Women's Prison who are shedding no tears over his comeuppance.)
Actually, in Italy, I suspect the matters of favoritism and sex would be grounds to say, why he's just doing his job!! (but then he would have been appointed to the job, rather than elected. There's a lot to be said for electing more judicial officials & we here in the US do tend to like to have more & more elections, even down to, yes, dog-catchers still in places.)
Pre-trial detention in Spain
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/...5/...spain0105/
9.htm
Pre-trial detention in Germany
http://www.germanlawjournal.com/...om/
...print.php? id=56
House of Lords report on pre-trial detention
http://www.publications.parliame...145/ 7050902.htm
Pre-trial detention in Eastern Europe
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=c...=c...n&ct=clnk&
cd=10
Pre-trial detention as regards EU citizens in other EU member states
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressRele......nce=MEMO/06/
314
Sorry can't find anything on pre-trial detention in Italy.
AndyT | 12.19.07 - 7:53 pm | #
Sorry, something seems to have gone wrong, will try to post links again
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/...spain0105/
9.htm
http://www.germanlawjournal.com/...print.php?
id=56
http://www.publications.parliame...145/
7050902.htm
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=c...n&ct=clnk&
cd=10
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressRele...nce=MEMO/06/
314
Thanks AndyT - and here's a link to a very recent (Dec 6 2007) blogger's outline of where a person's right to remain silent stands within the EU & the UK with a glance at Oz and the US: http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3314
His next to last paragraph:
However, there is no doubt that Parliament explicitly intended to reverse the onus in the Terrorism Act, allocating a persuasive burden to the accused. The Court vitiated this clear intent on the part of the legislature in a species of judicial legislation unusual in a jurisdiction where parliament is so thoroughly supreme. In a sense, European Union instruments are now being used as a de-facto written constitution, allowing a power of review to the judiciary more familiar to North Americans and Australians, with their written constitutions.
Robert M.
I think the differences between the US and Italian system as far as the pre-trial phase is concerned are not as big as you make them sound, and are more formal (the formal charge) than substantial.
The suspects have been heard by a judge four days after their arrest, and the judge has determined there is enough evidence against them to keep them in jail. Another judge has heard them a few weeks later. Their lawyers are always present during the interrogations, and under italian law (not just EU) they have a right to remain silent. If at some point the defence brought enough exculpatory evidence before the judge, they would be released.
In the US, they would have been charged and a high bail would be set, so they would be in jail, and like in the Italian system the charges could be dismissed later.
The only substantial difference is that the whole process is usually slower in Italy.
Hey Gang! Look what I found. Someone blogging about Crime IN Seattle. Here's the link to his/her top-rated AmaNda story via Google:
SEATTLE CRIME BLOG
http://www.seattlecrimeblog.com/...a-knox-suspect/
then hit home page to see a performance of "Amanda Knox is buring". After that, go down to first real Knox story, hit the amanda knox tag link and you'll get all his stories. His color pics are great and the crime-scene photo, with the items numbered, is also, a sis Rudy's You-tube, etc. Succinct and well done. Entries have comments but I haven't had timt eo rea them. Just reporting another take on this story but this one from Seattle.
eric while the similarities are there, the ability to hold a person for an extended limit without bail is a given in law (up to a year). There's is in fact, no bail procedure as such in Italian law. And first judge's review, while it includes the ability to release the person, is clearly designed to allow more investigatory activity by BOTH the LE personnel AND the judge. At both hearings, the judges were active investigators, as well as procedural reviewers. (They did have to prepare written reports as to why they made their no-release decisions, which few if any US judges are required to do.)
I would argue that it is both stylistically different as well as conceptually different. A person's right to be free is "supposed" under the bail system, while a person's right to be detained by his goverment is what is "supposed" under the Italian system. [This is where AndyT's support for Ron Paul comes in; such a detention system for a citizen is abhorent to a person like Paul who's beliefs are derived from the extreme English freedom tradition that is a major component of the U S Constitution.]
Some interesting takes above and from the previous thread. Curious, has anyone come to the conclusion that Amanda Knox is at least guilty for bringing into Meredith's world, this person Rudy Guede? Amanda knows right from wrong. It was wrong for her to not immediately contact the police when the moment of WRONG happened. Her upbringing taught her this. She knows right from wrong and though she is 20, she is behaving as a child and it is time for her mother to step in! Not the lawyers, not the prison chaplain and not the Italian police. Her mother knows how to handle her and that is why her mother is staying there. Getting to the truth is the goal.
Perugia, Dec.19 - The Perugia Review Court explains, through an 18-page document, why it rejected the appeal of Rudy Hermann Guede's lawyers to have him released from prison. The judges (Marco Battistacci, Maria Rosaria Monaco, Lidia Brutti) that support the prosecution's theory (as happened with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito), aside from analysing the scientific evidence and the investigation acts, claim that the papers "directly link the people under investigation and their presence in the house, hence with the deadly aggression on Meredith, consistently with the factual reconstruction that envisages the access of several people to that house with no need to break doors open, and by consent of someone already in the house". Consistently with the investigators' viewpoint, after more than a month of investigations, even the Review Court agrees on the fact that "several people were in the house when Meredith was killed, and that everyone fled after the tragic epilogue".
This article from ATI dated 12.19.07 states everyone fled after the tragic epilogue. Or does it imply that no one stuck around to clean up. Then why have other media reports of the judges review insisted there was a cleanup? and when? This continues to be nothing less than the poorest of journalistic reporting all so the editor can cram into the smallest space as possible while they maintain there personal biases.
Really! Why waste strokes on the presumption of the obvious. ~After they killed her, everyone fled~. Quite a summary supposition on the part of the prosecution. What would be the alternative to report. They hung around smoking joints and laughing while they looked for bleach, moved the body, ransacked another bedroom and broke a window in it, argued with loud voices up to 2:00 am, stopped by a toilet and took a shit, and cleaned another bedroom, that had clothes, books and papers scattered around, thoroughly with bleach AND then finally dripped blood around in the other bathroom, some of their own.
Oh, and then they "fled" running? Which way is it REPORTERS? Your way, the prosecutors' theory way you supposedly report, or the hard forensic evidence way, all other biases of the circumstantial held at bay of open mindedness?
Italian justice may be slow, justice should never rush to judgment, but Italian media not only rush to judgment, they adjudicate to all but the pronouncement of sentence and that "sucks". Shame on their maliciousness and salaciousness.
Well then, of course, since the leaks are coming from the prosecutors and judges offices, by default and necessity the bias reflected by the media must be the bias reflected by the former.
Also note in reports that RS father is appears to be doing a real good job of countering this bias by pointing out not only the inconsistencies in prosecutors questioning but their possibly incompetent analysis of forensic and circumstantial evidence to support their suppositions and their own contradictions. I kind of like the guy. He and his lawyers are sharp. I wish AK father was as sharp and I worry about her legal representation.
Do not take this as a bias of my own supporting RS and AK innocence. I believe in the legal philosophy of "innocent until proven guilty". My only bias is to keeping an open mind.
But either way or both, the real problem here for us is we now have enough reported evidence that completely contradicts other reported evidence, both circumstantial and forensic, that we no longer can even begin to honestly and with open mindedness build a theory ourselves that we can even narrow down to some agreement let alone support in agreement. It is also very clear that many here have drawn their conclusions of RS and AK involvement and guilt of some level or another based on their own developed images of the suspects characters (with none personally knowing them or their families and true histories)and the circumstantial evidence raised by prosecutors questions based on on the latter's theories; and not on any hard core forensic evidence (as in the case of RG).
To do so is the antithesis of impartiality and a 'rush to judgment'. But this is not a personal attack on any of my fellow posters here. Your thoughts, ideas and critical thinking are all valid and worthy not only of respect, but careful consideration. They are, however, not worthy of solid impartial conclusions at this point.
My attack is upon the journalistic standards (completely non-existent) in the reporters on the scene and this case. They are merely celebrity actors themselves, not reporters, acting out a self subscribing screen play. My point is where is the reporter digging for the real fact (or not) that ILE have a hand and finger prints lift from MK facial tissue that matches AK finger tips. Where is the real fact that ILE have a shoe print thread image of the sole thread on a shoe owned, worn previously and found in the possession of RS. And does ILE have and possess a murder weapon that clearly shows through forensic evidence it is the murder weapon (DNA, blood match of the victim, fingerprints of a suspect).
Dig, find, analyze, report the facts.
Or report the suppositions with critical analysis, like we are doing here if you can't get to those facts.
Neither is not happening. Very regretful.
Neither is happening. Very regretful.
Corrine,
Again, I'm amused. If you knew me better you'd know I don't "plant" anything. I come right out and say it. And I use my real name and real identity, unlike so many others.
Now, am I perfect? No. When I say something that's incorrect or misinterpreted (ala yesterday), I go back and correct it.
You can read my explanation in the comments section of my blog. It wearies me to repeat myself.
I've said I consider Ms. Knox is innocent until proven guilty. If you interpret that as being part of her fan club (didn't know she had one),so be it. I am a fan of the American system, never more so than now.
I think we can all agree that the police and the press have been abysmal in this case. Every day a new theory, every day a new fact.
You sound like an intelligent person. I hope you'll revisit my blog with a more open attitude. I'm always willing to listen to what you have to say.
P.S. I'm flattered that you think Xin should be afraid of me. He doesn't seem like the timid sort.
Here's the story I quoted. Disgusting, no? http://tinyurl.com/3ct67k
I admire this reporter's work: Really? Some edited out to shorten post. See full at: http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
..._119163883.html
"Perugia, December 19 - Investigators are convinced that they have identified most, if not all, of the people responsible for last month's murder of a British exchange student here but are still at a loss as to the motive of the crime."
What happened to the sex game and/or stolen money confrontation motive theories you previously reported, reporters? If not all? How solid is all this if they are still wondering what all means?
"Although investigators are in the dark in regards to the motive, they said the forensic evidence they have gathered against the three suspects is rock solid."
Note the words "rock solid forensic evidence." Now read the article with a keen eye and mind and find any rock solid forensic evidence reported. Dare you to find it except for that against RG which I ignore here.
"In an 18-page report released on Wednesday, police said their investigation and the evidence ''proved a direct relationship between the suspects and the victim and the presence of the suspects in the apartment at the time of the attack on Meredith''."
Coyotewaits is waiting for the rock solid evidence to be reported here.
"The report also said that the crime had been committed by ''two or more people who had access to the apartment and thus did not need to break in''".
Hmmh? This is new, yes? Or just journalistic exaggeration. Two or more. Let's see: AK had access, that's one. RS? No he didn't have a key, can't be two. RG? He had a key? maybe he's number two cause AK just gave him a key and told him to stop by her bedroom when ever he felt like it.
Or is it that MK let someone in that didn't have a key? Are any of us going to believe this report with "two or more?" What it really means is that two or more people "were given access" to the apartment". Then write it that way, who ever wrote it, meaning the judge. Yes I am splitting hairs, but hairs are important in a murder case like this. Pun intended, because I want to see the rock solid evidence about the hair in MK hand.
"Police are convinced that Knox and Sollecito were the ones who tried to thoroughly clean the scene of the crime, to the point that only one of Knox's fingerprints had been found in an apartment where she had lived for months."
This is circumstantial evidence, reporter or judge. Shame on you. You should know better if you were trained in crimnal justice. Too bad you haven't demonstrated rock solid forensic evidence such as AK finger prints on MK facial tissue; RS finger prints on the handle of a knife that has MK blood and DNA on the blade; etc. Poor Rudy!
"This based on the fact that two empty bottles of bleach were found in Sollecito's apartment which his maid told police were not the same brand she always used there."
Oh great! Here's some really rock solid?.....whoops. just more circumstantial evidence. Let's keep moving, because you know, it is possible and many times persons are convicted of murder based solely on circumstantial evidence. (see my off topic post coming below).
"Police also found a large kitchen knife in Sollecito's kitchen which had the victim's DNA on the blade and Knox's DNA on the handle."
Now this is forensic evidence, yes. But is it the murder weapon? Where is the forensic evidence that it is the murder weapon. I hope they have it, because RS lawyers and father says they have evidence it isn't the murder weapon and that it is circumstantial evidence. Still open to question, not what I call rock solid yet.
"Knox's blood was also found in the bathroom she shared with the victim which police suspect was left from a nosebleed after the apartment was cleaned, indicating she was there after the murder."
This is completely circumstantial. It was her personal bathroom. Why is it not possible that her blood was left there earlier in the afternoon. She and RS both said they were there from around 13:00 to 17-18:00 hours? And why haven't they found any more of her blood or a wound on her somewhere, like RG said he had. Oh, I know, they said it could have been AK had a nose bleed. Hello!, listen up ILE theorists. But you have to give ILE credit. They are questioning RS and AK hard about this circumstantial evidence to crack a clue from then to find more.....what? Rock solid forensic evidence! Yes, and their revisit to the cs brought us another chapter in the Harry Potter adventure and a shoe scruffy postcard. Coyotewaits is still waiting on reports of rock solid forensic evidence to be reported.
"An examination of Sollecito's computer revealed that it had not been used just before and after the estimated time of death, from 9pm to 2am on the night between November 1 and 2, thus contradicting the student's claim that he had been working alone on his thesis that night."
Hmmm again. Just circumstantial, and based on suspects statements. Probably not admissible in court (well maybe in Italian courts, I dunno). Let's see. Now they watched a movie, two hours? Then they made love (which RS forgot), 5 seconds for RS, 1 hour for AK.
Then they fixed a nice fish dinner and worked slowly since they were stoned. 2 hours. Except for RS's 59 minutes and 55 seconds, I get 5 hrs. He fell asleep, forgot.
"Police also have a footprint left in Kercher's blood which matched the size and make of sneakers owned by Sollecito."
Good, close to rock solid, bet OJ's defense team could blow this evidence out of the water. But do they have this evidence or not? Weird that part of the reason they went back to the cs Tuesday was to look at this print again.
"The evidence against Guede,"
is rock solid forensic evidence, poor sucker. Was he framed?
Conclusion to this report (article). 1) They have little if any rock solid forensics against AK and RS that has been made public. Maybe they have and are not yet saying. But with all the leaks, how do they control some but not all. They need a lot more in an American court or RS * AK both walk with good legal defense (what say in Italian court?).
2) They have excellent circumstantial evidence but if a jury presented with it only and without a plausible motive it won't cut it. And the article here says they are "at a loss for a motive." This is why I have emphasized the continued interrogation of the suspects. LE wants more contradictions to find more forensics. As RobertM, seattleite and I have said why don't they STFU.
So I have one question left for the reporters. If the prosecutors say they have "rock solid evidence" does that mean we are soon to have charges filed and a trial start date scheduled? I'll give anyone odds right now they are not. Any takers? Odds include handicap for previous LE statement made four weeks ago that is was "case closed".
Please also see my OT post to follow about murder cases solved and so called guilty persons convicted based slowly on circumstantial evidence and forcefully extracted confessions of contradicted statements from the convicted suspect.
ann arbor oh, yes, that "who could Rudy be more scared of then the police"Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 5:45 pm
Ooooh. Sorry RobertM. Took the eveningn off for family and a little basketball. And I admit, I got a little caught in limbo between the disqus and haloscan for a bit there. Glad we've found a home for now. I don't like to repeat--its good when we can keep the discussion fresh....Just cant figure why, if there is someone else involved, perhaps the catalyst for the murder, why someone doesn't name him.
Perhaps Pinecone has it right and its just been Rudy all along.
Aching for some fresh news. Seems as though the lawyers have seiaed control, and its much harder to trust the evidence that is being released.
Sorry, should have signed that ann arbor.
OT)) Yesterday authorities in Arkansas USA said they have new evidence that exonerates three teenage males (then 17-1
who were convicted in a early 1990's murder of three 8 year old boys in a described as satanic ritual murder in West Memphis, Arkansas. Today one of those teenagers, now 33 years old, still sits on death row. He is to interviewed tomorrow night on the Larry King show in the USA.
I only have vague memories of this case, so please don't hold my memory to the actual facts. I am sure details can be found with google. But the essence was they were convicted solely on circumstantial evidence based around their love for heavy metal rock music, their looks, interest in playing dungeons & dragons and proximately to the crime. There was no forensic evidence, let alone rock solid evidence presented by the prosecution against the teenagers.
For a while the step father of one of children was suspected but he had a "rock solid" alibi. A friend who testified the step father was with him at the time of the murder and couldn't have been at the murder scene for hours before, during and after the TOD. At the time they only had circumstantial evidence against the step father also.
Well now a cold case with convictions, including the death penalty (editorial: by ignorant jurors, and nefarious elected public prosecutors),
has been reopened and the victims preserved tissues in their murder kit have been examined with the new DNA and other microscopic analytical techniques. The result: Hairs, more than one, found on or near the children at the murder scene match that of the step father. Wow! Really. Whoa now! I said hairs not hair. Other hair[s] match the friend who provided the step father the alibi.
So lets hear a cheer for circumstantial evidence that convinces even the best and the brightest (here?) that it should count as "rock solid" evidence for determining guilt.
Sixteen years out of the lives of three innocent teenagers who loved their heavy metal musical artists.
How many times have you heard this story in the last few years, especially in the USA where not only cold cases are being reopened for analysis, but where convicted persons who were always claiming their innocence are being exonerated by new FORENSIC technology.
Over zealous public prosecutors who are elected? RobertM listen up. I disagree with your thoughts that electing criminal States Attorneys and District Attorneys is better than appointing them. Why do we have to have so many special prosecutors appointed in the USA because politically no one trusts elected prosecutors. We both elect and appoint judges here in the USA and I think the balance is probably the best we can find, certainly not perfect.
But public prosecutors that are elected only and can't be recalled except through the next election? I really have my doubts and concern when it comes to both criminal and political civil crimes.
What say all? Do we have a "cheer" for circumstantial evidence for convicting those we think guilty by what we hear from the so called fourth estate?
"then 17 to 18 who", number coding produced a 'cool face' accidentally.
Seems as though the lawyers have seiaed control, and its much harder to trust the evidence that is being released.
a2 | 12.19.07 - 11:52 pm
I find it easier to accept evidence which is presented by the defense lawyers, at least AK's and RS's. They are not gossip mongers like the judges and prosecution and I think they are more likely to be concerned with legal ethics, if there is such a thing in that country.
Rudy's attorneys have my sympathy because they've been dealt a losing hand. I don't see a strategy that could work for them. Maybe an insanity plea?
Extracted From Times Online December 19, 2007
"The new search also discovered a footprint belonging to Ms Knox on a postcard found on the floor of the room used by one of the Italian flatmates (absent at the time of the murder), where the window had been broken. Police suspect the window was smashed to simulate a break in. Ms Knox has sworn in testimony that she did not enter the room in question."
RobertM has already, eloquently and in his most erudite articulations, covered this subject added to the case today: "the postcard".
I just want to add my defense scenario to this additional piece of lucy-gucy circumstantial evidence.
~"Today, defense attorneys for Amanda Knox, age 20, suspected in the brutal murder of her University of the Foreigners class and roommate in Perugia, Italy, notified prosecutors in writing and reporters in a public press conference, that the recently discovered postcard that authorities had found in the room of another flat mate upon a re-examination of the house where the crime took place; and which postcard had an imprint of a shoe sole that was often wore by Ms. Knox, was in fact her footprint.
But it disdained as "ridiculous and spurious" the prosecutor's assertion that such a finding indicated that she was present in that room at the time the murder was committed or in the after hours thereof.
The legal defense team pointed out that Ms. Knox had in fact entered the room with her boy friend, one Raffaele Sollecito (24), a student at The University of Perugia, when she had enjoin him to accompany her to inspect the flat after she had been there alone within an hour before and found suspicious and concerning appearance that something wasn't right at her home.
This included finding blood splatterings in the bathroom she shared with her roommate who was the murder victim and the fact that their main house door had been opened and unlocked when she had previously returned to her flat after spending the entire prior evening and early morning at Mr. Sollecito's house.
Ms. Knox, upon returning with Mr. Sollecito, age 24, did with him, examine the entire household, entering all the rooms, including the room where the post card was found and where they found same room in disarray and with a open window with broken pane glass on the floor. The only room they did not examine and couldn't access was the room the victim was subsequently found in, because they found the door to that room locked, something that Ms. Knox noted to her boy friend was highly unusual for her roommate. At that time, being commonly concerned they each attempted to call both the victim and the third roommate to ascertain they were OK. Upon getting no answers they immediately left the house to go outside and call authorities as to their concerns. It was outside as they were doing so that they encountered other authorities just arriving inquiring about the cell phones of each the victim and the third roommate being found together that very same morning and trying to return them, possibly stolen.
This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
Extracted From Times Online December 19, 2007
"La Stampa said that while, in theory, Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito could have brought the book with them on the morning of November 2, when they arrived at the cottage to find — by their own account — Ms Kercher's bedroom door locked and a window smashed, this was unlikely."
F--k, the great London Times cannot even spend the money for their own correspondent who would speak Italian to investigate their country's citizens' interest (re: Meredith Kercher's and family's home country and citizenship rights)in justice for the victim. They, the Times, for financial expediency are reduced to associative reporting from the Italian La Stampa. So much for the real caring of British media to support truth and reconciliation.
Extracted From Times Online December 19, 2007
"Police also removed “bloodstained items of clothing” apparently overlooked in previous searches. Defence lawyers were not allowed to attend the search but instead watched it on closed-circuit television from a police van outside the cottage"
Those darn Harry Potter wizards have been hiding evidence from the ILE forensic investigators. Otherwise how could they have missed "bloodstained items of clothing" at their first very thorough forensic investigation.
Or maybe the blood and bleach bacteria just moved the blood from the floor with the shoe print to the clothing with which they really wanted to feast upon.
So much for the real caring of British media to support truth and reconciliation.
coyotewaits | 12.20.07 - 1:55 am |
I'm right there with you, CW. It's alarming that popular opinion can be shaped so easily. It's like they're choosing up sides for a tug of war. Everyone wants to be on the same side as the majority. Skeptics likely get shunned.
The newspapers write for the majority. If it's decided there's no evidence against AK or RS, the papers will hint at bribes or political persuasion by their wealthy parents.
It's been hinted at, as the conspiracy case dies from lack of hard evidence.
You know there is alot of talk about lack of objectivity among newspapers and tabloids and the bungling of the Italian policae.However Pinecone, the more you post the more I feel that you are desperate to vindicate and extonerate Amanda as much as some posters want to crucify her...Why is that?
ah sorry lol. that article he wrote, wasn't in relation? to AKs party/house/fine. Got the US/UK dates mixed up!
from fran | 12.19.07 - 11:07 am: in reply to RobertM, I guess, but I will take the call myself:
"I am not an expert about judiciary issues but your criticism of the way of dealing of scientific Police in Italy is not completely correct. Italian Forensic Police (RIS, ERT in some cases) is more efficient than in other countries, including the US, as far as we know from statistics."
Please fran, what statistics? Sources please. Opinions of mathematically gathered data and statistical analysis and counterpoint review by peers as to what the data and analysis means or does not mean. Forensic talent and skills measured within nation states for comparison purposes. What should I put into my google engine to find out.
But I will agree with you on the level of opinion only that the USA's well known FBI, CIA, DEA, TSA, ICE, etc., are a bunch of mostly incompetent ladder climbers though with some dedicated agents.
"From what I know, people can be detained in prison only in case of crimes which have a punishment higher than four years".
I recall from a previous poster from Italy confirming this as fact. They said five years, but thanks for the confirmation, makes sense.
"The issue regarding cautelary custody (custodia cautelare) begins to be dangerous if the Police or the media system are or become biased. There has been a long debate going on in Italy regarding privacy but from what I see the only prevention obtained regards phone calls and sms tapping."
I am pleased to hear that fran, and your assessment of such. But even here in the USA it is the same attitudes. If there is a new technology that can undercover the nefarious social behavior of citizens, those same citizens rise up in civil protest as to their privacy being violated. Today, no one would object to fingerprint technology. Yet at the turn of the 19th - 20th century citizens and civil rights apologists rose up in protest at this new technology. Now citizens begin to accept cell phone tracing technology as they see criminal after criminal tripped up by this technology, while politicians debate "privacy rights" over a socially state agreed public radio spectrum technology. The real debate has moved far ahead of the politicians. It is DNA individual identification technology now to be protested.
OT))Lets identify each new human being born by subscribing in records their individual DNA code upon birth. Check points socially and legally implemented to proscribe any discrimination based on certain characteristics on the chromosomes of each individual for skin color, intelligence quotients, disease probability, the all human rights philosophy of western enlightenment, etc.
But for identity, that is who you are and will always be. A substitute for our long historically held cultural requirements world and time wise for identity as in name, social citizen number, birth certificates, facial photograph (passports) all which can today be altered and ascribed a new identity through identity theft of assigned numbers, cosmetic surgery to the photograph, and easy name and historical record change.
Why are citizens so outrageous about DNA identity transcription to social public records, except for those already convicted of a public crime (oh, that is ok, because those guys are already known as bad guys). It is because it is a new technology that is always feared by the uninformed and unwilling to be educated masses, who fear any social and political change. (Remember the invention of the printing press. Of course you don't unless you are a historian. You take it for granted. But it was a technology that the public, defined as the church authority at the time, insisted must be proscribed forever).
I guarantee within 50 years from now DNA identity upon birth will be SOP for almost all social programs that are to the benefit of human aspirations and life benefits, politically determined. The only threat is fear and fear itself in the embrace of ignorance.
"I suppose the media leaking can become an useful method for lawyers to influence the public opinion."
I would hope so since the same leaking by the public prosecutors leads to influencing the public opinion.
"All in all, the Italian system is far too slow and sometimes not harsh enough when dealing with penalties, in my opinion."
Thanks for your opinion and insight about Italy and its legal systems. Those of us outside Italy need to hear such opinions from those living at home there. I really appreciate that.
My opinion about the USA: It is as imperfect as Italy's in its own way. There is always a rush to judgment here. There is corruption in the system to railroad minorities into prison for failure of juries to understand the discrimination inherent in rushes to judgment and the abusive nature of LE to solve crimes or be demoted, or at least not promoted, etc.
It is imho, all about human nature and its crying need to evolve into homo-rationalis from homo-sapien. It can't happen soon enough for me, after I am long gone.
Pinecone | 12.20.07 - 2:20 am
"I'm right there with you, CW. It's alarming that popular opinion can be shaped so easily. It's like they're choosing up sides for a tug of war. Everyone wants to be on the same side as the majority. Skeptics likely get shunned.
The newspapers write for the majority. If it's decided there's no evidence against AK or RS, the papers will hint at bribes or political persuasion by their wealthy parents.
It's been hinted at, as the conspiracy case dies from lack of hard evidence."
-------------------
Really, Pinecone! It is me who is right there with you not vice versa. Remember when I bought into believing that the ILE was right on top of this case and I accepted all this media hubris. I became arrogant when I heard the ILE claim "case closed" and offer my theory as cased solved with all the contributions of great analysis provided here by posters. Arrogance! Hey I started handing out medals. OK. I can go overboard in my own ego to impress.
But the real "right with you" came from you to me. Why was this "idiot" poster pinecone thinking outside the box. Well pinecone made me think again and lower my arrogance quotient enough to get me back on track with rational analysis and critical thinking. Where I should be with humility.
Thanks for showing up and reminding me.
from bcpl's contributed link at
Results from Reuters concerning the crime:
http://www.reuters.com/article/
w...931807120071219
bpcl | 12.19.07 - 4:16 pm
"Judge Maurizio Bufali wrote in a document confirming Guede's arrest that his testimony -- in which he claimed to have scuffled with an unidentified killer just after Kercher was stabbed -- was "full of decisive falsehoods".
What is this a new judge? "Judge Maurizio Bufali." Do they rotate judges. Where do they get the resources to have so many judges adjudicate evidence for determining detention. Wow! What a great system. Judges to cross check other judges. I like that.
Help fran? What is going on here.
No complaint here, it is just that judges in the USA are so overloaded that they can hardly, if at all, really think more than 5 minutes about a case when determining a bail setting for an arrested suspect. If only we could have a system where a second judge adjudicated a first judges considerations. It would be like an appeal without an appeal having ever to be filed.
Am I missing something here or is this a really good procedure?
hi everybody--
cw:
that does this mean? please, the simple version--it's late.
from above; ref the Times OL:
This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
coyotewaits
Loz, I don't think the dates fit. Look at the Mail's article; it talks about AK having a summer party (but maybe they got it wrong!!)
The date of the defendent summary is also in the summer 07/02/2007 i.e. July 2. But keep on researching !
AndyT | 12.19.07 - 7:32 pm | #
difference between UK/US date format. whoops. It seems that on Greek Row, it's normal to tie up your peers, st up an assault on them. alot of it doesn't get reported. like, one such incident was only reported because the house caught fire after they duct-taped the victim. I don't even know what sorority she was in.
ak's sorority that is.
from above:I admire this reporter's work: Really? Some edited out to shorten post. See full at: http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/ ..._119163883.html
-------ANSA is the Italian news service that is like Associated Press or Reuters. It is a subscription wire/news service with customers being the papers and electronic media in their region.
Xin, try and copy that link again. Instead of selecting it and doing Control-C (if that's what you did), try to hover over it, right click, and copy using the little menu window that pops up. That way the full URL will get pasted and not "start...end".
Also,playing catch-up, if RS's shoe print is so degraded, how did the bunch pick up a star-pattern in blood from his shoe just today that wasnot so badly degraded? Maybe I missed something here.
Ash your knee-jerk criticisms of the US are seriously misplaced. The clumsiness of Cheney, the gas-hog Hummers, the Trumps, the Britneys are just NOTHING to worry about. CHeney is so much more dangerous than you can get your little head around. The Hummers are not what's going on about oil, Trump is a cartoon character. There are some very dangerous and long-reaching political developments that YOUR country and OURS have put over (in the works for maybe a hundred years in the case of oil) that could lead to a new level of world suffering the likes of which hasn't been seen. Your complaints are remarkably banal. It's like we're drunk in a bar political talk. Idiotic. No offense. There are plenty of smart Brits and Americans that can see quite clearly that the path ahead is pretty fucking risky.
OK==thanks mucho, Kerm. If it doesn't work, maybe you can email a jpeg. I've tried to save it a few ways and it only is html.can't get to a jpeg.
TY- I hope to put up a slide show tomorrow--street murals in LA of the Virgin of Guadalupe (I've worked on this for quite a while. and a bunch more news links at the blog.
I didn't explain myself well. It has nothing to do with a jpeg.
Try something else, go to the news article itself (on the browser web page), and copy the perhaps long URL from there (by whatever method), then paste here in the blog, and we should be able to click it.
If not, I'll trust you that the article was interesting!
Oh. that link just posted? Not my link; I copied it from Coyote above. I am a tinyurl.com fan.
And, sorry, I was referring to the knife pic you posted yesterday, I tried to load it onto the blog so many times last night, will try some more tomorrow. No go.
Here's the longer link posted earlier by CW..nothing so new really.
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
..._119163883.html
Ref. xin | 12.20.07 - 5:00 am |
Ah .... Hablando se entiende la gente.
1. Okay, your link (CW's) works.
2. Ref my knife image, first of all a question: Although you can't load it on your blog, can you visualise it on your screen when you click on the freehosting.net link?
http://www.ansa.it/opencms/
expor...l_38205306.html
Another article from Ansa
Returning to the pre-trial detention debate, I think in many continental European countries, it's a significant "instrument" in the fight against crime (of course, nobody will say this outright).
The possibility of being locked away for weeks or months (even if innocent) means that people have a real interest in "cooperating" with law enforcement, or - even better - not doing anything that might even risk "contact" with LE. [I've been told "Avoid criminals and avoid the police - and you'll be okay."]
And in more than 10 years, I've only ever spoken to a LE officer once, when I was detained for 2.5 hours in a police van because I had no identification on my person (I was jogging in the park).
xin | 12.20.07 - 4:26 am posted:
that does this mean? please, the simple version--it's late.
"This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
coyotewaits"
-------------------------------
Hi xin,
It means I am so disgusted with worldwide media but even more so the European media, and further so the Italian media that I decided to become my own correspondent and reporter.
I can weave fantasies based on rumor and innuendos amongst the best of the so called professionals of the fourth estate today. Did I fool you into thinking that someone was reporting something from somewhere other than my own fantasies.
Well if I did, then I have made my point. However, I do think my word selection was better than anything you could get out of an editor from the London times.
Be careful Coyote
http://www.lby3.com/archives/872
this is not the place to try to spin your BS as some sort of unneeded demonstration.
there is NOTHING you can tell me about the media, but your post tells me plenty about you.
froggy
yes i see the knife all the ways on the imagedump url, and via the source url--couldn't link to the same graphic at another site either. just won't grab.
Xin, since I can't come up with a fast explanation on the image linking problem, my suggestion ref. the knife photo is to save it to your computer, then post it the same way you have posted other images on your blog, OR having saved it to your computer, upload it again to www.freeimagehosting.net and use the new link.
Sorry, can't think of anything better than that.
CW,
I suppose this Bufali is a main judge. Matteini is a gip, i.e. a "judge for preliminary investigations"
CW,
Sorry
Regarding statistics over scientific police I am afraid it is something I have heard and watched on TV recently and I cannot remember the source
http://www.matrix.mediaset.it/in....it/
index.shtml
Matrix again on the murder
CW,
judges are overloaded with work in Italy too.. I didn't imagine it was the same in the US
I have just watched a bit of Matrix. They have shown all the evidence signed by letters. They have shown a small stone in Filomena's room, used to break the window.
Fran...also RS's dad plays down the 'prick' story, says he can't understand why his son would've taken that knife to Meredith's house to cook...since they had 14 knives there.
RS's team play up the missing footprint story and also say there cannot be a little star if there is no footprint. Maresca, the Kercher's lawyer, found common ground however when he said that the original analysis/photos of the footprint will be used during the trial.
AK's blood found on the biday in the smaller bathroom was 'mixed' with Meredith's.
AK's blood 'mixed' with MK's? Ummm, simultaneous nosebleeds! If true, this could be important.
nowo | 12.20.07 - 9:10 am "AK's blood 'mixed' with MK's? Ummm, simultaneous nosebleeds! .."
I think it was Pinecone who told us that women living together tend to have menses at the same time, simultaneously.
http://tinyurl.com/3373xt
This is Porta Porta from Monday. Go to page 2 and click on Amanda in Lacrime. You can see RG's psychologist, RS's criminologist (not made clear) an Italian judge, Mr Biscuits(sitting in the audience) and the waspish Vespa all shouting at each other. Somebody was talking about a farce earlier...what the hell did you mean?!
Lots of visual stuff that may interst some of you...the Vespa simulating the(over the shoulder) attack on RG...as Biscuits simulates his clients defence is the kind of quality we've come to expect.
Let's try and distinguish between what ILE has leaked, what the lawyers are saying and what the press is reporting...I don't think this is beyond us.
Also, the lawyers have read all the judge's reports, in particular, the 40pager...we haven't. Their cards are pretty much on the table but we can't see them.
The judge on this show says it will be very difficult for the lawyers to 'dismantle' these bail reviews.
Also, the lawyers have read all the judge's reports, in particular, the 40pager...we haven't.
We haven't seen the 18 pager from Rudy's hearing either but alas posters freak out about the little bits they glean from web sites that they themselves defame and discredit.
If we all stopped paying attention the salacious reports and TV spots would all fade away. We could just wait for trial.
http://tinyurl.com/37xqmj
Amanda in Lacrime.
Italian woman | Homepage | 12.19.07 - 11:32 pm | #
--Does someone have her blog link. I forget where it was.
Thanks Anon for the link to the PortaPorta show; the initial cough of the criminologist Franceso Bruno (a descendent of Giordano??) says more than a thousand words
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 8:47 am | #
And where is this story you refer to that RS dad plays down the knife pricking MK?
Man--amazing that RS handlers let that diary loose. That whole knife thing finally got me to think that Maybe RS is guilty.
fran | 12.20.07 - 8:04 am | #
Matrix.
AndyT | 12.20.07 - 6:29 am | #
--LOL!!! they should give that kid a break.
--I don't speak Italian and I don't have sound on my computer, so matrix is unfortunately not compatible
Hey, Anonymous please use the function at end of thread to enter you posting handle, as you do have to provide a correct email anyways. Thanks.
And as to not reviewing things BEFORE the trial starts? Naaaaaaaah. That's not what we are here for. In fact, thanks to the work of AndyT and Kermit & damian from Halo1 & 2, & middie ditto, we are educating ourselves in preparation for outside evaluations when the trial starts. And there are all those tantalizing in-between things like --> Just WHO has joined Amanda's legal team from the US? including former FBI agents skilled in profiling & evidence evaluation? FINALLY, her Daddy's MBA skills & attitudes are beginning to show. Can't let Dr. Prompt have all the Good Lines. And who will try to save Rudy's bacon?
RobertM,
Just caught up with the postings from overnight, and after reading the following postings, wonder if the information re AK's legal team is true:
xin | 12.20.07 - 4:26 am posted:
that does this mean? please, the simple version--it's late.
"This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
coyotewaits"
-------------------------------
"Hi xin,
It means I am so disgusted with worldwide media but even more so the European media, and further so the Italian media that I decided to become my own correspondent and reporter.
I can weave fantasies based on rumor and innuendos amongst the best of the so called professionals of the fourth estate today. Did I fool you into thinking that someone was reporting something from somewhere other than my own fantasies."
So, I'm confused--Is this true, or was cw just making his point? Do you know?
In generalFran...also RS's dad plays down the 'prick' story, says he can't understand why his son would've taken that knife to Meredith's house to cook...since they had 14 knives there.
RS's team play up the missing footprint story and also say there cannot be a little star if there is no footprint. Maresca, the Kercher's lawyer, found common ground however when he said that the original analysis/photos of the footprint will be used during the trial.
AK's blood found on the biday in the smaller bathroom was 'mixed' with Meredith's.
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 8:47 am | #
Thank you for completing
ANN ARBOR re legal team. Well, I CERTAINLY read it as "true" but I myself was skimming earlier postings. If I'm making something up for sarcastic purposes, I try to clearly label it so as to avoid confusion. I will review where this all started and make another comment.
FRAN & ANDYT -- re BLOOD MIX ON THE BIDET.
There's a lot of ways that that could happen. Especially from the ladies shaving all their various parts (*Ahem*). Just look around your own bathroom. I'm single right now and I constantly finding stuff to clean, and I've lost a number of AM facial wars to my Gillette Turbo(TM) razor blade! Also, while it is a fact that women living together in groups do find their menses synchronizing, it takes TIME for that to happen. Amanda was in that house a bit over 3 weeks & also was spending most of her time elsewhere. Overlapping periods would be a coincidence but not unlikely. True matching would not have had time to occur.
In Porta a Porta I find relevant what lawyer Biscotti says about the escape of people from the house. One witness heard two people escaping, she saw one of them leaving on a stairwell. The other witness, Alessandra Formica, saw a black man, probably Rudy, on an other stairwell, from where he also has said he had left. So there are two witnesses seeing two different guys running away on the different stairwells (together with another person leaving in a different direction)
CORRECTION
coyotewaits at 12.20 1.40am
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=27706#62395
started a long post which began thus & ended thus, emphasis added:
"I just want to add my defense scenario to this additional piece of lucy-gucy circumstantial evidence. ... This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States."
This last sentence is NOT TRUE as of yet at least. CW is attempting to show how easy it is for us not-in-Italy adults to write up a better newspaper feature story than the correspondents on the spot.
Hey, CW, do a better job of marking your SCENARIOS. As Will S would put it, "Rumour rides ahead of fact."
Anyway Bruno Vespa is a dickhead (sorry...)
Ref. fran | 12.20.07 - 8:36 am | #
Excellent new Matrix show, Fran, thanks for pointing it out.
Ref. Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 8:47 am |
Fran...also RS's dad plays down the 'prick' story, says he can't understand why his son would've taken that knife to Meredith's house to cook...since they had 14 knives there.
---------
Wow! Anonymous, I just watched part 2 of the Matrix show from last night. Daddy is using all his dialectical skills (and he has alot) to try to erase from the record his son's prick story. It's like he's saying that his son's story was never meant to be taken as a factual explanation
I.E.: Daddy's discrete message to prosecutors is: "don't even think about cross-examining him on his diary entries, that was just a helpful effort to TRY to explain the knife with the DNA. He's doing his best to provide explanations. On contemplating the circumstances, in this case, let's not take it seriously."
On the other hand, Daddy certainly is enjoying the degraded footprint. He says now there's nothing to link RS to events of that night.
Frog man, did RS's dad say that his medical witness claims the cause of death was asphyxiation?
Damian,
What is the alibi de jour coming from the RS camp today?
hi bpcl...you may not believe this, but I fell asleep last night around 12-30 and I honestly can't remember what exactly his team were saying. I do distinctly remember, however, a rather awkward exchange (Maresca-RS dad) about a telegram of condolences to the Kercher family which seems to have 'disappeared'.
Maybe the telegram's in the same place as RS' shoe print.
(kidding, sorry)
Damian,
I find that very strange yet very interesting. From what I understand, neither the RS camp nor the AK camp has ever publicly stated, in front of the media, or WHATEVER, that they were truly sorry for the Kercher family's loss of their daughter.
Setting psycho-babble aside, it just goes to show you that the narcissism that exists within their children has disseminated up to these two camps, or maybe, just maybe, it was there all along.
well well well, the big a 'shakes n bakes' when pressed on questions that require truthful answers. a true drama queen that keeps all fascinated!
the judges have lodged their reports saying THERE WAS A CLEANUP.
they also say that there were MANY persons there in the death house at the time of the murder and there is a POWERFUL but unuttered motivation behind this heinous act (of ritual murder no less).
this is low-achieving attempts at black magic......
Ann Arbor,
No, it is in the Harry Potter book. That same book that was teleported from the girls cottage to RS's flat for AK to read a few pages, before exotic sex with Mr. Wonderful, and then back to the cottage again. The only problem was that somehow, the final teleportation got lost in the shuffle. I just wish these two characters could get their story lines right so that we do not have to be humored each day with something new to analyze, in order to solve the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
bpcl,
The Harry Potter book! Of course-I'm ashamed I didn't think of that! Hahaha
Also, I want to mention that I actually have read comments from RS' dad re Meredith's death. It's a little nauseating, though. It usually a throw-away line at the end of a long speech about his son's innocence, and goes something like, "And of course we must all remember that poor girl Meredith, who died so cruelly on that night."
Ummm--doesn't ring as too sincere.
xin | 12.20.07 - 6:31 am
"there is NOTHING you can tell me about the media, but your post tells me plenty about you.
Chuckles twice. Just goes to show that when one speaks the honest truth in answer to another's questions asked the questioner get so PO'd because the answer doesn't fit their preconceived suppositions about what should be the truth. Sound familiar xin. The judge doesn't like to be fooled now, does she? Answer the question like I want to hear it, please! Now can we have the truth again?
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 9:41 am posted:
Also, the lawyers have read all the judge's reports, in particular, the 40pager...we haven't.
We haven't seen the 18 pager from Rudy's hearing either but alas posters freak out about the little bits they glean from web sites that they themselves defame and discredit.
If we all stopped paying attention the salacious reports and TV spots would all fade away. We could just wait for trial.
-------------------------
Very well said and never said better. Drop all our preconceived suppositions based on biased, incomplete and inaccurate reporting and wait impatiently for a trial. Or at least a public release of the entire 18 and 40 page judges' reports in original Italian and translation there of by our own expert "belle".
RG's lawyer on Porta Porta was trying to draw a line('frattura') where his client was seen running from the house, saying that RG wasn't involved in the clean up.
What you understand bpcl was confirmed by Maresca.
Damian,
Thank you. Maybe you could ask RG's lawyer that if we were to assume that it was indeed his client seen running from the scene of the crime, THAT we must also assume that he had nothing to do with it!
No offense Damian, because I have been to Italy and totally loved the place, but AndyT said the other day, that Italians do not know when to stop talking! Do you think that is true? I read today that RS's dad is now saying that maybe his son did not cook for AK, Meredith and himself afterall, that if his son did say it, that he was trying to give a possible explanation for the knife found in his flat.
You gotta love these lawyers and family members who all seem to have a propensity towards putting their clients in a bind. "What is truth?" after all.
coyotewaits: "Drop all our preconceived suppositions based on biased, incomplete and inaccurate reporting and wait impatiently for a trial"
------------------
The trouble is, that's all we really have. Without hard evidence (of which very little has actually been "officially" substantiated), each and every one one of us can only speculate.
Even the police themselves are 'speculating' about what they THINK took place, and I think it's human nature for us ALL to do this. At the very least, it opens up other avenues of thought that perhaps hadn't been considered before.
-------------------
"this is not the place to try to spin your BS as some sort of unneeded demonstration.
there is NOTHING you can tell me about the media, but your post tells me plenty about you."
xin | 12.20.07 - 6:31 am
On the other hand xin, it appears you might have been fooled at first that I was posting a published report and you were ready to believe it just if.
Just goes to show the power of "real" journalism even when it is fabricated, dramatized or even fact presented in a biased manner.
------------------------
AndyT | 12.20.07 - 6:29 am posted:
"Be careful Coyote"
http://www.lby3.com/archives/872
That's a cute story Andy, thanks. I wouldn't go that far. I don't need my 15 minutes of fame from doing jail time or not. I obviously already have my infamy established here, unfortunately, in the judgment of many others. (see above).
It's true that Italians like chatting but I'm not sure it's relevant.
I've never followed something like this before, so have nothing to compare it to. Maybe this is why I don't understand various diary entries which seem to me to create suspicion.
What you read '..trying to give an explanation..' is accurate.
('...supposedly seen running from the house...')sorry!
For me this case is all but closed except for the trial and convictions of the conspirators. Yes there a few hanging threads, but I'll continue to read the daily pubs for updates and to follow the trial.
Many thanks to all for their contributions here and especially to damian and middie for the Italian media sources (which removed the translation to Engish step before English pubs' reports) since I could translate them myself.
I'll move on to other things. But always with thoughts of Meredith Kercher and her family and friends.
coyotewaits | 11.19.07 - 12:06 pm
For me, this case is all but over except for the real time trial, not this trial by media or by this blogs' comments thread.
And now that these three tragic souls have been outed by the cold steel hands of forensic science; the finger prints, foot prints, DNA so minute it can only be seen with an electron microscope and typed by chemicals and computers, cell phone pings, tapped cell phone messages and conversations, blood and hair, knives, sponges, and even feces......we cry out....GUILTY.
coyotewaits | 11.24.07 - 11:32 pm |
CW, in the UK we really would describe you as a plonker.
.
damian, rob:
so very glad to see you two here.
x
So, I'm confused--Is this true, or was cw just making his point? Do you know?
ann arbor | 12.20.07 - 11:04 am | #
AnnA: it was one of those moments when coyote needed to change the subject to HIMself.
No it is not true, and his comments pretty much need to be ignored I'm afraid.
Agreed Xin
.
God Bless You, Mud.
Thank you Xin
Should I step to the front of the class for a medal?
I shake my head.
Anyway, let's see justice done.
No it is not true, and his comments pretty much need to be ignored I'm afraid.
xin | 12.20.07 - 4:21 pm | #
Its ok, xin, cw's postings were usually so long, and so opinionated that I generally just skimmed the first and last paragraphs!
Damian said: Frog man, did RS's dad say that his medical witness claims the cause of death was asphyxiation?
damian | 12.20.07 - 1:49 pm |
Hi Damian. I assume that's for me. I have to process the Italian into Spanish on the run, and a lot gets lost on the way. Was your question because you heard something to that effect, or because you suspect they're going in that direction.
I would assume that if that's the case, the knife stops being the murder weapon, and reduces the potential charges against RS (so that in the very worst case it was an assault weapon, and in the very best, a mushroom cutter for the friendly AK, RS, MK dinner that Meredith helped prepare in the 14 days between AK and RS first meeting each other and Meredith untimely murder - the RS "prick" story.)
I'll listen to the Matrix files again, if I pick up more in the sense you indicated, I'll post on it.
Not sure about stepping up for the medal. Medals are up to the plonker.
He's the one that *thinks* that way.
Yes, we need to see justice and we want the TRUTH and we want to pursue the BEAUTY of TRUTH.
best.
Can't we all just get along?........Take a day off coyote....but don't stay away ...please.......sometimes I enjoy your rambles
Muddy,
Plonker???? Love the word what's it mean?
Thanks for asking that Rhonda. I'm loving the word, and wondering about it as well. ANd of course,muddy only posted a SMALL selection of that sort of continuing theme.
http://tinyurl.com/2opo7r
Kermit frog man, it's here near the start...bit tricky to translate.
muddy | 12.20.07 - 4:15 pm
Yup, even I was a fool who believed at first what I was reading (translated) not having any comprehension of how the Italian justice systems works and especially how the European/Italian media works.
I was really impressed by that dramatic intro to the TV show last night...
Amanda in Lacrime.
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 9:41 am
http://www.raiclicktv.it/raiclic...d=2098&
pagina=2
classical music and all.
Can't we all just get along?........You're right RK meman. I have tried to stay clear of arguments here, and regretted my snide remark as soon as I posted. Sorry.
"So, I'm confused--Is this true, or was cw just making his point? Do you know?"
ann arbor | 12.20.07 - 11:04 am
It was sarcastic humor Ann. Not appreciated by overly serious sleuths here. It was done to make a point. ~That what you read in the press is seldom the facts.~ It is most often just a distortion of what the reporter thinks the facts are or should be. xin doesn't like to be fooled. "now you must'n fool mommy, cw".
I thought when i read it in your posting, cw, that it was written to make your point about media lies. But a later post by RobertM spoke of new additions to AK's defense team (FBI and forensics people).So when I read it a second time, I wasn't certain what to think.
And my apologies for my snide posting a few back...no disrespect intended.
Rodney!
I'd like to nominate myself as the Christmas plonker. (idiot)
I thought 'the cold steel hands' was a bit much, maybe wouldn't have mentioned the 'electron microscope' or the 'tragic souls'...but have pretty much thought the same for a long time. (Obviously, one of the 3 cw was talking about, I would swap for another)
Call me a plonker...
OK: OT (ie you can fast scroll.... as determined by...)
In the UK there's been a very popular comedy series based in South London, for years and years.
.... I'm going to look for a youtube. Del Boy, Rodney, The Trotters. I can't describe it.
I'm aware we shouldn't be having a laugh on this subject - let's just say it's enormously popular here in South East London...
Anyway, Del Boy (quasi sophisticated older brother con man) would usually deride Rodney (younger honest but dim with the nicer GF) as:
"You Plonker"
It does resonate.
Damian, nice to see your input again, I do share your misgivings.
.
Good to see you back Damian....!
Dearest Coyote,
Your nic is so perfect for you. At times your impatience is palpable. I can just see you as a coyote....ready to pounce on any perceived slight, falsehood, misconception you see...pacing....a little human on your shoulder saying....wait...wait wait.
Have some faith my friend..Justice does often prevail in one way or another..just not on our time schedule.
I thought when i read it in your posting, cw, that it was written to make your point about media lies. But a later post by RobertM spoke of new additions to AK's defense team (FBI and forensics people).So when I read it a second time, I wasn't certain what to think.
And my apologies for my snide posting a few back...no disrespect intended.
ann arbor | 12.20.07 - 4:52 pm
---------------
Yes Ann. I think RobertM was not sure it wasn't real also, though he admitted he had just skimmed it and needed to look again. And xin of course was very tired, otherwise why the emotional anger at another's sarcasm to make a point. As I said, people do not like to be fooled, who does, same as being lied to. (Look at all the anger at suspects here because people 'believe' AK, RS and RG are lying). Other of my 'long' posts covered topics about people telling the truth who were punished by angry justice systems because their truths had to be lies.
So yes I can be provocative at times, but it is on purpose. If people can't see my purpose and have to bash my style, well that ok with me, flaming doesn't bother me. It's to be expected. To be online in any thread one has to have a thick skin. The point still is made successfully and it sinks into consciousness unrecognized.
Apologies accepted, certainly no hard feelings. As I said I have a thick skin, worn rough by experience, and hold no grudges.
classical music and all.
coyotewaits | 12.20.07 - 4:42 pm
Wasn't it the same as the theme music to "Gone with the Wind"
It was so familiar...
I've been thinking about this all day
Compare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=g...feature=related
OT)) AndyT | 12.20.07 - 5:11 pm posted: "Wasn't it the same as the theme music to "Gone with the Wind"
It was so familiar...
I've been thinking about this all day"
---------------
Keen ear and observation there Andy. Must be some irony in that intro music for Porta Porta and their producers selection of the musical theme from an American movie. Maybe the composer of that original music score was an Italian.
Starring Raffaele Sollecito as Rhet Butler and Amanda Knox as Scarlet O'Hara...
This is going to take a long time; that's how it is.
There will be lots of speculation, titbits of information and crappy, lazy journalism in the meantime.
We won't have a clear idea of what the police have until the trial.
I don't think Ricciarelli wrote a 'Gone with the Wind' type report.
Sorry, sounding a bit like a machine there...
re the autopsy
Kermit | 12.20.07 - 4:32 pm | #
How would RS medical team know? They were one of the teams that requested a second autopsy that they'd be privy to. But as far as I know there wasn't one.
They're talking bull-crud because RS is fascinated by knives.
The point still is made successfully and it sinks into consciousness unrecognized. (CW)
as being 100% assholish and dishonest--that's what sank in, contrary to the *i am the center of the universe* idea.
as i said: there is NOTHING you can teach me about the media.
and now BASTA, fool.
cool your boot boots xin, you're usually a voice of reason.
WHOA! either I'm too tolerant or I don't get the undertones. People, please.
annarbor, you apparently missed my bolded CORRECTIONS comment above at http://www.haloscan.com/comments...07317890/
#62544
I have NO PROBLEM with someone posting a pastiche to make a point, I asked only that such be made more clear so if skimmed one would not think it the real thing. I take this advice to heart myself.
QUERY on JUDGE'S REPORT re Rudy:
Has NO extended excerpts appeared in any of the Italian papers? I think this Judge's conclusions, and EVIDENCE CITATIONS, would be very important to read. Espcially if he is referring to multiple (i.e. more than 3) people being in & out of the house. Damian, nothing???
'..would be very important to read.'
haven't seen any extended excerpts.
http://tinyurl.com/2ex36k
This has some short excerpts but I don't think they are new.
'..la fuga da tutti subito dopo..'
Everyone ran straight after the..(murder)
Coyotewaits,
You were happy to see me find this thread! You can't go just yet! One of the great things about this place is people like you. Even if we get upset with each other, it is no different than fighting with our own brothers and sisters.
The problem all of us are facing here, is that there is so little coming out, and when it does come out, the spin-meisters just spagetti it all up.
However, many people here, including you and RobertM, Pinecone and so many others, give good insight from time to time, about the very minutia that is available to us; and personally speaking, I find it to be very helpful. I also believe that many of us here have come to realize that this case is not simple as you have pointed out, but far more complex than we can possibly imagine. Even Luke, who I greatly respect, and do not see here anymore, has admitted that the usual suspects have completely baffled him. I hope that you will stick around.
bpcl.............well said....is luke out there lurking?.....where are you Luke?
RobertM, I did see your bolded corrections, and you confirmed for me that cw was just playing. So thats good--i appreciated it.
I was just explaining, when cw brought it up again late this afternoon, that seeing his post, and then reading yours repeating the information, had me second guessing myself. But its not a big deal and, Phew--Please don't mess with us again in this way cw. Geeez, I'm exhausted from trying to explain to everyone about something of no importance.
I would much rather get back to discussing what we gather here to discuss. The murder, suspects, new info (if any)...
Meman,
It's up to RobertM to find him; he led everybody else to this thread and so I am putting the burden on him!
lol............yea i agree.....did you Hear that RobertM....lol
RobertM:
ABC News claims to have seen the report (but who knows). At the end of this recap there is this--and this is right from their abc.com website--
With additional reporting from Perugia by Carla Rumor
http://abcnews.go.com/Internatio...=4032657&
page=1
Well, I said Damian and he came back! But rob showed up on his own, and middie I think too. So if you ALL think "LUKE", perhaps our white magic will work. (Actually, a lot of people really had no use for the Disques format, it seems.)
Thanks for link, Damian. It seems though I can't "copy" text into Babelfish to translate; they've set up a copyright restrict. Would I have to register to get around the copyright screen? I think there's a LOT more in their than the Times reporter tried to summarize and certainly more than the "Reuters" reporter. If you have the time, could you do an English summary for each section? And are those things "quote marks"? (I would assume.)
"...a neighbor who said she heard terrible screaming come from the house on via della Pergola on the night of the murder. The neighbor told police she also heard the sound of hurried footsteps from a number of people running from the house "right after the tragic ending of the evening."
--ABC News
Why didn't this neighbor call police? This perhaps could've had a different outcome...
RobertM, this is it
PERUGIA (19 Decembers) - All inquire you to it for the murder of the English student Meredith Kercher - the American Amanda Knox, Prompt the Raffaele fiancèe and the ivoriano Rudy Guede - they have had an active role in the homicide. Re-examination supports the Court del that emphasizes also the falsità contained nella version of Guede. The sentence. The judges, in the motivations of the sentence with which it has been rejected the request of release of Rudy Hermann Guede, write that the evening of 1 November was to house of Meredith Kercher more persons and all have participated to the homicide. From the replies investigated to you and scientific the presence appears by now sure "more persons in that house in the moment in which Meredith it came murdered and the escape of all endured after the tragic epilogue of the evening". Persons who the court identifies clearly in Rudy, Amanda Knox and Prompt Raffaele. "a participation of group - they add - to the brutal criminal action that does not appear hypothetical in terms passes you for nobody of the present ones". In the 18 pages of the provision the judges analyze one to one supplied the scientific and investigative tests and conclude emphasizing that these data, "place a relation directed between the subjects in issue and their presence in the house in the context of the mortal aggression them to Meredith, in coherence to a factual reconstruction that sees the access more persons in that room without necessity of forzature and for consent of someone" of house "". The motive lacks. To a month and means from the homicide of Meredith Kercher not there is still the motive that has carried to the murder of the English student, then writes the Re-examination in the motivations of the decree with which they have rejected the demand for release of Rudy Hermann Guede. E' before the time from the beginning of surveyings that of the judges put black on white man one of the still dark points of the inquiry. "the elements to inquired cargo of the odierno - the judges assert speaking about Rudy - sopraggiungono for scientific source but do not upset the reconstruction of the fact that man hand has gone disvelandosi". And they add: "It is in entourage of the amicali relations more or the little grips, of the many occasions of acquaintance" to chain "in some way typical of the university life of the" outside center that turns out to be matured the incredible one and brutal crime of which, it must acknowledge, it still remains difficult to travel over again the ideative sequences ". It remains therefore to try the motive because, the judges still say, are "istinctively unacceptable who without a reason strongly friction or a situation of extreme alteration, contemporary young people of the victim, knowing its, have carried their sconsideratezza until the extreme limit of cruento the crime". But that does not mean, specifies but endured after, than it inquires to it not there to you enter and that is demonstrated from "data objects to you" that "they speak" and that "they are integrated mutual and they converged": "the tortured body Speaks about Meredith, speaks the assessed impossibility that the authors are enter to you in house and for a various criminal scope furtively, the signs of the sexual violence, the traces of dna speak of Amanda and the victim on the same knife, the being this guarded in the house of Raffaele, the riferibile print to one shoe of costui in the room of the crime, the ematiche traces of the Knox in a bath and the unequivocal signs of the presence in contemporary in the other bath of Rudy, the print of this last on the pillow and its biological material in the vaginal pad of Meredith". Unreliable Guede. The reconstruction supplied from Rudy Hermann Guede with respect to the evening in which the English student Merdith Kercher it has been killed turns out "absolutely unreliable", "in how much contrasting with objective outcomes of the procedure, beyond that with consideration of logical order", the Court of the Re-examination still asserts. The judges then list the points from which emerge "the eclatanti and meaningful falsità" from part of the ivoriano, accused of competition in homicide and sexual violence in the comparisons of the English student, killed the night between first and two November, in its room of Via of the Bower to Perugia. According to the Re-examination, in particular, Rudy in its reconstruction of the evening of 31 October (that one before the homicide), asserts to have agreed with the victim the appointment for the following day. Version, second the judges, that "it contrasts totally" with the fact that Meredith passed the evening before the homicide "with the English friends, at first having supper to house of one of they, then, towards the 0,30, oing to the Merlin and still after to the Domus". To the "Domus - law in the motivations - the same Rudy declares not to have seen Meredith. The Spanish girls friends of Rudy, confirm of being exited with he that evening and of to have gone in the houses of two Spanish friends, but they exclude to never have seen or known Meredith, which does not turn out in alun way connected to those frequentations ". According to the Re-examination, therefore, the passed evening 31 October from Meredith "does not contemplate some passage that puts it in contact with Rudy, tantomeno like girl whom it flirted and it was kissed with he".
Andy T:
I think I will wait for the cunieform translation.
thanks seattleite --> it has 52 comments so far and boy, are they off-topic. Makes xin & cw look like a prosecutorial team. I'm working my way to page 3.
On page 2: "Battistacci wrote that the "incredible and ferocious" murder came out of the atmosphere of the meeting of many new people that is typical of university life. Yet the judge is clearly taken aback by the violence "because it is instinctively inacceptable that young people of the same age who are also acquaintances of the victim, could take their thoughtlessness to such an extreme as to commits such a cruel crime without their being a strong conflict or an extreme state of alteration."
I figured out how to copy the Il Massegero article. Just save it as text! DUH. I'll fiddle with it but this ABC report looks like its got most of it. The list of evidence these judges accept as SOLID is:
** A bloody handprint found on a pillow under the victim and DNA evidence found in the bathroom of the house and on Kercher's body belonged to Guede.
** A bloody shoe print on the scene of the crime matched Sollecito's shoe.
** A knife found in Sollecito's house contained DNA from Knox on the handle and from the victim on the blade.
** Knox's blood was found on the sink in one of the bathrooms, and the absence of her fingerprints in the house where she lived (except for a single print on a glass) was evidence that she was there and carefully cleaned up traces of her presence.
** Knox has said that she was with Sollecito at his house for the entire night of Nov. 1, but Sollecito's proof that he, too was home — his use of the computer that night — has been dismantled by police.
muddy | 12.20.07 - 4:15 pm posted excerpts from HaloScan I thread of cw's posts a month ago that the case was solved:
"For me this case is all but closed except for the trial and convictions of the conspirators. Yes there a few hanging threads, but I'll continue to read the daily pubs for updates and to follow the trial.
Many thanks to all for their contributions here and especially to damian and middie for the Italian media sources (which removed the translation to Engish step before English pubs' reports) since I could translate them myself.
I'll move on to other things. But always with thoughts of Meredith Kercher and her family and friends.
coyotewaits | 11.19.07 - 12:06 pm"
and
"For me, this case is all but over except for the real time trial, not this trial by media or by this blogs' comments thread.
And now that these three tragic souls have been outed by the cold steel hands of forensic science; the finger prints, foot prints, DNA so minute it can only be seen with an electron microscope and typed by chemicals and computers, cell phone pings, tapped cell phone messages and conversations, blood and hair, knives, sponges, and even feces......we cry out....GUILTY.
coyotewaits | 11.24.07 - 11:32 pm"
----------------------
and muddy added:
"CW, in the UK we really would describe you as a plonker."
and
damian | 12.20.07 - 4:52 pm added his humorous post:
"Rodney!
I'd like to nominate myself as the Christmas plonker. (idiot)
I thought 'the cold steel hands' was a bit much, maybe wouldn't have mentioned the 'electron microscope' or the 'tragic souls'...but have pretty much thought the same for a long time. (Obviously, one of the 3 cw was talking about, I would swap for another)
Call me a plonker...
----------------------
and point out just a small correction to damian's post that in the context of my 11/19 and 11/24 posts the 3rd I was talking about was not PL but was in fact at that time the mysterious unknown third person, at that time referred to as the NA.
And interestingly today 98% of the universe watching Italian TV and reading Italian press and two thirds of the posters here believe just what I stated back then: It was RS, AK and the now known third person RG.
In the meantime to remain 'provoative?' and keep minds thinking this CW character now lines up behind pinecone's theory that it was only RG and possibly one other still unknown assailant. (I have stated my reasons carefully, something about all evidence reported since 11/19/07 has been nothing but circumstantial)..
Geeeshhhhh, I am a plonker!!! No damian, you can't have the title plonker.
I own it. It belongs to me. I am the idiot!!
'The list of evidence these judges accept as solid is:'
Sorry Robert, but this can do nothing but mislead. Let's wait till we see all the evidence before saying things like that. We have seen a tiny fraction of these reports and probably won't see the rest until the trial.
NOTE re the evidence list in the Rudy judges report. What's missing? Among several things, there is NO MENTION OF THE CCTV PICTURES.
First part of report in clearer English
PERUGIA (19 December) - All suspects for the murder of English student Meredith Kercher -- the American Amanda Knox, the boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, and the Ivorian Rudy Guede -- played an active part in the homicide. The Court supports the Review also stressing the lies contained in the version of Guede.
The judgment. The judges, in their reasoning for the rejection of the request for the release of Rudy Hermann Guede, write that on the evening of November 1 several people were at the home of MK and all have participated in the murder. The investigative and scientific evidence now appears certain of the presence of more people in the house when Meredith was killed, and the escape of all immediately after the tragic epilogue of the evening.
People that the court clearly identifies are Rudy, Amanda Knox and Raffaele. "A group participation - aggregated criminal action, which does not appear feasible if those who were present had been passive. In the 18 pages of the report, the judges analyze the scientific evidence and investigation, and conclude by pointing out that the data indicate a direct relationship between the players in question and their presence in the house in the context of a deadly attack against Meredith, consistent with a factual reconstruction that sees access to more people in the home - without the need for consensus and for forcing someone "at home".
Missing motive. A month and a half after the murder of Meredith Kercher, there is still no motive, leading to the killing of the English student. The Review then mentions the reasons for rejecting the request for the release of Rudy Hermann Guede.........
Sorry anonymous was me coyotewaits, the idiot.
What's also missing is 95% of the report...
cw, I stand corrected.
So all we are getting is the judges conclusions on each point of evidence, and NOT the details of how they reached their conclusions, and then how all those conclusions fit into the Group Theory. And STILL no mention of the CCTV pictures.
Why not?
My guess is in the report they must just put their conclusions to hold the suspect and any sensitive facts will be left out or redacted. And as Damien says this is clearly a recap and ABC will likely not want to pay a translator to do the whole thing. Why when they have Carla Rumor reporting from Perugia.
Damian, I saw your earlier note ref the point to watch in Matrix. Am bushed, will check it in the morning, and leave a message then if I can understand something. 'Nite
My guess is in the report they must just put their conclusions to hold the suspect and any sensitive facts will be left out or redacted. And as Damien says this is clearly a recap and ABC will likely not want to pay a translator to do the whole thing. Why when they have Carla Rumor reporting from Perugia.
seattleite | 12.20.07 - 7:46 pm |
I laughed when I saw the reporter's name.
Pinecone:
You just can't make this stuff up.
The ABC link above says the neighbor's testimony is "key" evidence. She testified to hearing screams and several people running.
"This is confirmation, the judges wrote, of 'a group participation in the ferocious criminal act, that cannot be considered in passive terms for any of those present.'"
Of course, this doesn't mean anything because they're still in the conclusion jumping stage of the investigation.
Damian said: Frog man, did RS's dad say that his medical witness claims the cause of death was asphyxiation?
damian | 12.20.07 - 1:49 pm |
Hi Damian. I assume that's for me. Kermit | 12.20.07 - 4:32 pm | #
--I have read on another blog comment,(I think , not sure the perugia shock, eyes for lies, or crimerant) that Meredith dies of asphxiation because that is the way something, forget what it was, in her neck was broken, and also why the pillow was near her.
There is most certainly a strong theory for her dieing from asphxiation.
Why would the official reports mention that she bleed to death, a very slow death? I do not know why.
But the CCTV pics would show people moving in & around the house, thus "confirming" that multiple peoples were involved as per their theory. Also, perhaps, the exits of same. And what about CCTV pics FROM THE NEXT MORNING, when there is sdaylight? Never thought of that before.
Really, IF the CCTV pics actually showed what the leak claimed they did (remember that one?), THEN the judges wouldn't need to cite odd blood drops and lack of fingerprints, etc. At this point, I don't think they are holding them back. I DON'T THINK THEY SHOW ANYTHING AT ALL, neither at night nore in the day. We shall see of course, but still...
From what I understand, neither the RS camp nor the AK camp has ever publicly stated, in front of the media, or WHATEVER, that they were truly sorry for the Kercher family's loss of their daughter.
bpcl | 12.20.07 - 2:39 pm | #
--actually, RS has brought up a lot the terrible murder of Meredith, and by media reports he also went to the memorial in Italy when it just happened. I read that AManda didn't go to the memorial, and I also have not observed anything from her about poor Meredith.
I DON'T THINK THEY SHOW ANYTHING AT ALL, neither at night nor in the day. We shall see of course, but still...
Robert M. | 12.20.07 - 8:52 pm
I think the CCTV thing was a bluff. I'll call their bluff and raise them a bloody bra with Rudy's DNA on the clasp.
chris | 12.20.07 - 8:52 pm | # additionally, the commenter said that the injuries in merediths mouth were consistant with being smothered by a pillow. I saw this quite awhile ago, but it really seemed very confidant.
Maybe someone tried to smother her, and didn't realize that she wasn't dead, and she then bleed to death in an unconcious state.
Maybe someone tried to smother her, and didn't realize that she wasn't dead, and she then bleed to death in an unconcious state.
chris | 12.20.07 - 9:21 pm
I think the strangling was overkill. He wanted to be sure she was really dead, and didn't want to wait for the twitching to stop. Plus, he was really pissed off at her because he injured his own hand when he stabbed her.
Back from the aeroport.
What I assume here that makes sense to me:
The judges make the decision,
based on the presentation of the investigating prosecutor (the lead dude) of "certain" evidence of the crime and at the crime scene and circumstantial evidence of the suspects behavior surrounding the time of the crime; and after the judges have been involved in a Q & A of the individual suspects with the latter's attorneys present,
to continue to detain (or to release) the suspects from prison while the investigation 'continues'.
I would further assume that Italian law requires these judges to file a written document stating their conclusions based on what they heard and considered to warrant their decision.
But that the law does not require the judges to document in the report all the evidence in detail and the conclusions and theories the prosecution is operating on as the prosecution would thus be required to do when they filed an indictment of the suspects for trial. They merely need at this stage to provide a summary justification of their decision. So we get very few details.
So Damian and many others here, me included, have always assumed all along that there are evidentiary details, many discussed at the hearings, but many perhaps not yet submitted to the hearings (slow progress mentioned by fran and damian to Italian prosecution) that are not in these reports and are not required to be in them.
So yes we are back to the same squares to which we have been moving our game pieces around trying to make sense of leaked, rumored, actual, stated then forgotten, and other evidence.
soozie said that's all we have to go on. She's right. So let's go on. It remains interesting to debate back and forth every bit we hear. I'll add mine in the next couple posts looking for some feed back from the critical thinking of others here.
Many media reports stated that AK blood was found on the tap of the bathroom sink. These reports also says the blood of Mk was found scattered in the sink and on the floor or rug on the floor of the bathroom that had been diluted with water.
Other reports, that I have only seen here, says that AK blood had been found on the bidet and in mixture with MK blood. Can anyone confirm that this second bit of info about AK blood was from media reports and when? I don't need the link, I trust your word if more than few here had read that in the reports.
The judges report for the continued detention of RG did state that the crime was committed by multiple person, the three present suspects included, (I never could figure out without belle's translation whether they were implying possibly more than the three suspects) and that after the crime a new recently (found?) key witness as hearing a scream and shortly thereafter hearing multiple persons footsteps fleeing the house.
Gee, I wish she had looked with her eyes rather than just listened with her ears.
Anyway my next question. Do I infer correctly that this means, AK and RS being amongst those present were also the fleeing persons and thus did not remain to cleanup, such cleanup taking place also clearly repeated in the report for the nth time that had taken place?
If so then, I also have to infer that RS & AK, after gathering their senses and having discussions, must have returned to the house for the cleanup. Thus the additional witness (no mentioned in the report, but certainly reported before)of hearing argumentative voices around 2:00 am.
I just remain baffled about the LE insisting there was a clean up solely based on the lack of AK fingerprint in the house and two empty or near empty bottles of bleach found at RS house, the brand of which wasn't used by his maid? (And such details of the receipts for the bleach purchases appearing and then disappearing as reported evidence).
Anyone else working this inference over in their minds and what this new witness means and what clean up really means?
Robert M. | 12.20.07 - 7:42 pm asked:
So all we are getting is the judges conclusions on each point of evidence, and NOT the details of how they reached their conclusions, and then how all those conclusions fit into the Group Theory. And STILL no mention of the CCTV pictures.
Why not?
------------------------
see my thoughts for an answer at my following post
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=42395#62864
in brief, because it is not required at this stage of the Italian legal process. This is just the equivalent of bail hearing phase.
Robert M. | 12.20.07 - 8:52 pm posted:
"Really, IF the CCTV pics actually showed what the leak claimed they did (remember that one?), THEN the judges wouldn't need to cite odd blood drops and lack of fingerprints, etc. At this point, I don't think they are holding them back. I DON'T THINK THEY SHOW ANYTHING AT ALL, neither at night nore in the day. We shall see of course, but still..."
I have been thinking this for some time now and posted such thoughts previously. That there are no CCTV images of any conclusive value. They are more evidence mentioned through the leaked to media process that has disappeared into the black hole like the hair in MK hand evidence.
Scary isn't it.
Coyote, my understanding on the bleach was that a shop near RS's place sold 2 containers of it on the 'morning after', same size/brand as the (now empty) containers found at RS's i.e. timed receipts on the shop's records, not receipts found at RS's home.
CW:
My understanding that in MK's room the wardrobe is to the right of the window if you look at the "grainy" crime scene picture. One word answer.
CW: As we say in Seattle Nevermind. I was looking at the video Kermit posted the link for back at Disqus and compared it as you did to the "grainy". I only wanted to establish that the wardrobe is NOT on the "other side" of the bed...that the bed is against the wall and that one can't say "the wardrobe" is on "the other side of the bed".
You would think that the killer would have used some type of gag or something, near the beginning, to prevent loud attention getting screams . Unless the perpetrator(s) got some extra thrill listening to her to plead for her life.
And good luck if the court is looking for some all inclusive motive for this horrific death.. Botched inside robbery, and threat of police intervention? Prison time for Rudy, and Amanda gets kicked out of Italy. Sex and drugged fueled party gone wrong with multiple people involved? The judges don’t want to rule this out and takes in to account neighbors recollections. Also helps sell tabloids. Mutual date gone wrong? This scenario isn’t panning out for Rudy. Time to try something else .
OT)) Although on topic with regards to my and others posts about the interrogation techniques of pressure and stress used on AK over endless hours during the night where she confessed to being at the crime scene, hearing MK scream and implicating PL. And that the likely hood that her confession was coerced and forced by LE.
From the Chicago Tribune:
"A federal jury today awarded $15.5 million to Kevin Fox and his wife after concluding that Will County sheriff's detectives violated his civil rights by fabricating evidence in the 2004 slaying of his 3-year-old daughter, Riley.
Jurors determined Sgt. Edward Hayes, three deputies assigned as detectives to the case, the estate of a fifth and the county were liable for trying to railroad Fox."
see complete story here:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/
ne...l=chi_home_util
"The reasons that Tomczak and the other defendants were dismissed remains under court seal at the order of U.S. District Judge John Darrah. Zellner, the Foxes' attorney, would only say the claims against the dismissed defendants were "resolved."
The actual facts here is that those separated from the case and their insurance companies settled with Kevin Fox out of court before the case when to the jury. So the financial damages paid to the Kevin Fox family are far greater than the $15.5M.
I would also like those who read the article to note that the sheriff's police still insist he is guilty and involved in the crime. No apologies from the detectives because the money doesn't come out of their pockets it comes out of mine, the taxpayer. Actually it because of police mentality, they can do no wrong.
This kind of malicious prosecution happens all the time in the USA by overly aggressive elected public officials and by a police mentally is get somebody anybody in high profile and very public cases.
Ladies and Gentlemen: Should I assume that such investigative techniques and malicious prosecution of innocent suspects never occurs in Italy, or at least in Central and Northern Italy around the Umbria District?
I rest my case on the AK confession as any kind of circumstantial evidence and the fact that none of us witnessed or have testimony from anyone who did in the public forum. We should. There should be video tapes of that interrogation.
Nowo: "receipts"
That was reported in a post that 2 receipts were taken from a store. The newspapers reported the receipts at RS place were not from Nov. 2.
Coyote, my understanding on the bleach was that a shop near RS's place sold 2 containers of it on the 'morning after', same size/brand as the (now empty) containers found at RS's i.e. timed receipts on the shop's records, not receipts found at RS's home.
nowo | 12.20.07 - 11:16 pm
-----------------------
Thanks nowo. Interesting. I recalled the receipts were from his home. Therefore if you are correct with the report you read nowo, then I would wonder was there a clerk that sold the bleach that has identified RS or AK as the purchaser. Or was it an automated check out that takes cash, obvious that if it was a cover up RS or AK wouldn't use their bank card.
This also implies that the clean up was in the late morning hours not early 2:00 am hours. Like they went back to the house at 7:00, 8:00 whatever the receipts said.
Get my point about circumstantial evidence. Such evidence starts, like an excellent and appropriate metaphor by puzzler and used elsewhere in this thread by kermit, appearing as “Facts are like fireflies, they are real, always there even when you can't see them, blinking in and out of view in ever changing configurations.”
cw info/blood/ bidet
'The confirm traces of blood is due to Mez (on the mat and bidet) both Amanda (in the sink and bidet)'
http://notizie.alice.it/notizie/...l?
pmk=nothpstr2
On another note, are there any differences in chemical composition between menstrual blood and 'other' blood? I've been unable to find any info on this.
Novo: Blood Question
...at the outset that menstrual blood differs in composition from that of regular blood, most notably by containing immune cells called "macrophages". These cells are able to combat the presence of pathogens present in the uterine cavity. It is from this observation that Profet establishes her hypotheses: "Menstruation functions to protect the uterus and oviducts from colonization by pathogens"
http://www.thirdspace.ca/article...cles/
pr_ogr.htm
DLW | 12.21.07 - 12:06 am
Thanks for another update on what I take is reported extracts from the 18 page judges report on the further detention of RG. As pointed out by others here there is no new reported evidence than that which we were already considering.
I am hoping to see the corresponding judges report for the further detention of AK whose hearing was conducted this past Monday 19 Nov. Is that the 40 pages report or am I confusing reports here?
cool your boot boots xin, you're usually a voice of reason.
muddy | 12.20.07 - 5:58 pm | #
Ha--you're funny, but OK.
I'd rather be hot-footed than a plonker.
Leaving this day for the altered state of consciousness known as slow wave and rem sleep states with these thoughts in my brain from this conclusion in the judges report:
"The panel of three judges, presided over by Andrea Battistacci, remains baffled for a motive in the grisly attack.
Battistacci wrote that the "incredible and ferocious" murder came out of the atmosphere of the meeting of many new people that is typical of university life. Yet the judge is clearly taken aback by the violence "because it is instinctively inacceptable that young people of the same age who are also acquaintances of the victim, could take their thoughtlessness to such an extreme as to commits such a cruel crime without their being a strong conflict or an extreme state of alteration."
Prior to this report we had LE, prosecutors and judges theories (for the inclusion of AK, RS RG as jointly involved suspects only) of:
1) A sexual game that went out of control accidentally;
2) A domestic dispute between flat mates, possibly over money and perhaps fueled previously my non-cooperative behavior of the suspect AK amongst the other three flat mates over hygiene and cleaning issues resulting in angry confrontation that got out of hand;
and theories presented here by posters including some but I am sure not all:
3) RobertM Shadow theory of human behavior resulting from universal but unconscious forces beyond control of orbital-frontal cortex neuronal inhibitor functions (Jungian psychology);
4)sexual magic, satanic ritual, Voodoo religious ceremonial practices, etc. which I would classify under the Shadow theory
5)previously non-perceived and undiagnosed sociopathic and possibly psychopathic personality disorders (as defined by Hare, et. al.) in AK and/or RS or both, who upon personal and sexual union over just two weeks time did premeditate or otherwise express their pathological personalities in a plan executional murder
6)modifying theory 5) slightly as to the pathologies, and thus just a plain simple and calculated thrill killing by two otherwise privileged and intelligent young university students, re: Leopold & Loeb calculated thrill killing;
7)any re-spinning and synthesis of the above six theories into a more coherent theory;
actually I think all these 3) through 7)theories were elucidated and developed by RobertM with credited input from other posters given by him;
group of RS, AK and RG and ??? gathered to indulge and participate in enjoying drugs far more behaviorally and brain states alternating than just hashish would be, leading alone or in synthesis with any of the theories above;
9)any theories presented previously I missed, and my apologies for not remembering. (Please note my summary list of theories here is only the ones that support the judges conclusions and bafflement. Not the alternative theories, e.g., Pinecones that do not involve at minimum the current three suspects).
The fact is the judges declare they are baffled. We here also seem to be baffled. Are we?
10) any theories that the participants here are yet to contribute from their critical thinking, dreams, intuition, rational or irrational suppositions or their better halves and friends responses to wondering about their obsessive involvement in this fascinating thread.
Coyote waits.
ah did I finally figure out the code for the kewl face html code? 8 ) or
it is! 8 no space ) 8 space ) 8 )
xin doesn't like to be fooled. "now you must'n fool mommy, cw".
----------
Quote from CW above, who needs an amazing amount of attention, and so stoops to blatant sexism and very offensive references.
You did not fool me, and I am not your "mommy."
Please stop it. Just do it. Stop.
OK
UP AND AT 'EM, ITALY, England and other countries with a decent education program for the languages of culture.
These comments have appeared on the Perugia-Shock blog in response to the 12/18 article about the (WOW!) discovery of the latest and greatest in the category of possible weapons, and the scene created by daddykins and his hirelings.
ANybody willing to help translate. These excerpts need nuance that Google just can't get.
We are in the very early days of technology. Here's the stuff, comments by Perugians:
Sollecito -Padre oltre ad improvvisarsi Psicologo psichiatra medicolegale ecce ecc. stà inquinando tutte le scene sia mediatiche che investigative per ultima la marchetta di ieri sera sù MATRIX dove c'era solo lui e il suo pool ad difendere RAFF AELE senza nessuna controparte..troppo comodo
December 20, 2007 4:54 AM
Anonymous tobefrank-italia said...
Dovresti vedere come si muove a Perugia. Va sempre a cercare i giornalisti. Cmq è incredibile quell'uomo, è molto meglio dei suoi avvocati. Stasera o domani potrai leggere un articolo su di lui, anche.
Thanks, thanks, thanks.
I'm thinking Frank is the *go to guy.*
A new day everyone.
Not a happy Christmas in Croydon.
I just put a 14-shot photo essay up that I've been working on for ages. Street paintings in LA of the Virgin of Guadalupe who protects murdered children.
If you are interested
it's at http://arttotherescue.blogspot.com
and on the blog-resource site for this crime. i hope it all links up the right way.
Hey Xin, wonderful photo essay, congrats from me.
"...If so then, I also have to infer that RS & AK, after gathering their senses and having discussions, must have returned to the house for the cleanup..."
coyotewaits | 12.20.07 - 10:50 pm
Yes, Coyote, this may well be what happened.
As far as I understand it, the old lady witness has said that she saw (or just heard?) three people fleeing the scene - one [IMO, could be RHG] going one way, and two others [IMO, could be AK + RS] going another way.
But please correct me someone, if I've got this wrong.
AndyT,
Hi!
the old lady heard many steps and then two people escaping, one along the street and one on the stairwell. Another witness saw on a different stairwell a black man running away
Also GOOD MORNING! or perhaps Early Afternoon in the UK & Italy & Elsewhere by the time this posts.
ALL Law Enforcement Agencies Must Be Meticulous In Doing CSI
While scientific investigation in criminal matters has advanced tremendously in our own lifetimes, accelerated even over the past 10-15 years so much that "cold cases" from even 30+ years ago can get solved*, one must not forget that GIGO -- garbage in, garbage out -- always applies. Here's the link to the acquittal report on the 1998 Omagh bombings by Mr. Justice Weir of North Ireland for which the single describing word -- "damning" -- is not strong enough. Bad procedures, right up to actually losing a car (!!!!), and outright lieing, led the judge to acquit the only real suspect. So, while CSI techniques are now part of LE training etc, IT'S ALL ABOUT DOING THEM CORRECTLY FROM THE START, or else they are valueless. And that applies to the US, the UK, the Portuguese, and the Italians, http://www.guardian.co.uk/
Northe...2230858,00.html
* footnote: For the DNA story in The Joan Mixer (1969) Murder Case, once attributed to the Michigan Coed Murderer ( http://www.crimelibrary.com/seri...ins/
body_1.html ),
see the links at the Court TV Index page on the 2005 trial which led to a conviction:
http://www.courttv.com/trials/le...rman/
index.html
Note ESPECIALLY the section on DNA contamination. The jury finally felt that the other circumstantial evidnce, plus the DNA, warranted the conviction of some one who had led an alltogether good, community-service oriented life before that. There are links to the video of the trial as well. I prefer, for background, the 48 Hours narrative from the perspective of Mixer's niece, poet Maggie Nelson, who's second book is a series of poems written over time as she grappled with the decade upon decade impact of her aunt's death on her family, perhaps the way the Kerchers and especially sister Stephanie are experiencing their own loss now:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...in1066064.shtml
Chris,
actually RS's father sent a letter of condolences to the Kercher family but it didn't arrice to them apparently. That is what they said on TV
Kermit,
actually RS's father went on even to suggest that the shoeprint disappearance can suggest it was like a manipulation
Sollecito -Padre oltre ad improvvisarsi Psicologo psichiatra medicolegale ecce ecc. stà inquinando tutte le scene sia mediatiche che investigative per ultima la marchetta di ieri sera sù MATRIX dove c'era solo lui e il suo pool ad difendere RAFF AELE senza nessuna controparte..troppo comodo
Father Sollecito, he is doing the psychologist, psychiatrist, medical legal expert ecc ecc and in addition is trying to pollute all the scenes, either mediatic or investigative, the last one at matrix last night where he was alone and his team to defend Raffaele without any counterpart ... too much comfortable
Thanks fran for your "matizaciones", don't know how to say that in English or Italian ... your precisions are extremely helpful.
Here's something else for you, and principally for Damian, who asked me to listen to the first 4 minutes of one of the parts of the most recent Matrix show:
http://www.video.mediaset.it/vid...zio&
from=matrix
This is what I understood, in paraphrasing and transliteration:
((This part of the show starts with Enrico Mentana, moderator of the Matrix show, speaking by telephone connection with Daddy. The latter is visually represented on the TV screen with a photo.))
Enrico Mentana: Can you hear me, Dr. Sollecito?
Daddy: ... I still don't understand why it is being said that there was more than one person involved in the death of the girl. I would like to make reference to a legal expert opinion written by a forensic doctor, Professor Torre ((?)), who maintains that the girl was immobilised and in any case suffocated, before the knife injuries occurred, and that that contributed to her death.
So I don't understand why they insist that there was more than one person who committed the crime. Insisting in four suspects ((AK, RS, PL, RHG)) when the only thing that is for sure is that Rudy was there. Raffaele didn't know Rudy. Raffaele only casually knew Patrick because he went to Patrick's bar a couple of times ...
((Daddy having finished his comment, Enrico and Lawyer Brusco, one of RS's legal team, start talking on camera. After a couple of minutes, you suddenly hear a familiar voice in the background: it's Daddy, who hasn't hung up, and starts making further points. Finally the Matrix technicians realise who's speaking and they put up his photo again))
Daddy: ... so the only reason Raffaele is implicated is because of this girl ...
Enrico Mentana: Well, we have to keep in mind that just today the judge, in rejecting Rudy's appeal to leave prison on bail, wrote a report in which he underlines the serious implication of all three (AK, RS, RHG) in the crime.
Daddy: Obviously, the magistrate in Perugia thinks in his own manner. I only ask him to think of the truth.
-------------
Well, that's what I pick up from the interview. Daddy is pushing the following points:
1) whatever knife was used to injure the victim doesn't matter so much, because the principal injuries she suffered / factors of death, were due to suffocation
2) there was only one killer, probably RHG; Raffaele had nothing to do with it, the only reason he entered the picture is because his girlfriend got caught up in the investigation.
The only paraphrased comment I'm not too sure about is "before the knife injuries occurred", I'm not sure about exact detail there, he did refer to the knife in that sort of context.
Fran, if you get a moment, could you confirm that knife business. Thanks.
RobertM the Omagh case is very particular to Low Count DNA. im no expert but it involves 'growing' DNA from specs that are 1 millionth of a millimeter in size. the point of the growing is to get enough DNA material to test. the results often produce incomplete strands and are very prone to error by contamination with such very very small amounts being used and 'grown'.
the problem in this NI case is that such a susceptable process was not handled in a manner which would reduce the chance of error and zero-chance contamination.
if it had been just regular DNA tests then the procedures used by forensics WOULD have been sufficient. the trouble is the prosecution tried to deny the vulnerability of the Low Count DNA method.
.
Kermit, first of all I want to explain better what i wrote before: RS's father suggested that the shoeprint was a manipulation FROM THE START
regarding the video RS's father just said that the knife injures were the cause of death -- your point 1) is not correct I am afraid
There is no trace of RS on the knife so he is pretty ok about that I suppose
also judges take a very dim view of either prosecution or defense (and sometimes both) continually denying the facts when they are patently obvious. such denials are fatal to the chances of success of the offending side.
this NI trial was just heard by a single judge with no jury under measures brought in to stop jury intimidation.
back to the big a, i hope she does the whole year in jail even if they never get it together to press charges. she deserves reflective time away from society for accusing an innocent man in murder and for her callous attitude towards the murder and the trust put in her by others.
no matter what the boig a will make millions from this 'situation' in or out of jail and will have all the casual sex she she ever dreamed of.
maybe she could write a book called 'if i had did it (sic)'
haha
.
Fran, thanks for clearing that up, Damian, take note!!
It's time for me to go to Berlitz.
Kermit, in additoìion RS's father would like to point out that Meredith's DNA has been found near the handle and not on the point of the knife
I've to go now
CIAO
sorry to post repeatedly (i hate it too)
does anyone know if the big a has actually failed to account for an article of clothing (sweatshirt has been mentioned here)?
i just wonder if the big a and the boyfriend may have keep 'items of interest' that belong to the other in order to seal their pact of mutual cooperation. that is if one goes all out and spills the beans the other could then reveal the whereabouts of the 'item' hidden that implicates the other.
the vampire was setup no doubt and i like somebody's (cant recall) post about how he would have been the perfect patsy but for the unfortunate finding of ther phones and the arrival of the postals to the ohuse of horrors meant the length of time that was expected to pass before the body was found was cut down by 2 days.
it is odd that the big a showered after finding the door open to her house. i wouldnt have without a through search of the house and im a bloke, most of my girlfriends have been nervous about showers after seeing psycho (and no witty posters not cause of me).
anyhow the occult nature of this crime is something that the authorites (including vatican) would want to keep undercovers.
i recall the vampire report said 'powerful' but unknown motives behind crime. i dont think the report said 'baffled'. any reference help appreciated...
.
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Just an FYI
"DATELINE" REPORTS ON SEATTLE COLLEGE STUDENT AMANDA KNOX - FRIDAY, DEC. 21
"DATELINE" TRAVELS TO PERUGIA TO REPORT ON SEATTLE COLLEGE STUDENT AMANDA KNOX'S ALLEGED INVOLVEMENT IN THE MURDER OF HER ENGLISH ROOMATE FRIDAY, DEC. 21 at 9PM
Gains Unprecedented Access to Investigators' Crime Scene Evidence
Broadcast Includes Bar Owner and Suspect Patrick Lumumba's First North American Television Interview
(New York) December 20, 2007 When Amanda Knox, the 20-year-old American language student from Seattle, went abroad to Perugia this fall no one from home ever imagined that the seemingly sweet and innocent girl would end up being a main suspect in the unimaginable murder of her English roommate, Meredith Kercher. As theories and intrigue continue to swirl around this horrific tale of drugs, violence and group sex, three people remain at the center of this investigation: roommate Amanda Knox, her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and a Perugian street hustler, Rudy Herman Guede.
In an hour-long report airing this Friday, Dec. 21 (9:00 p.m., et) on "Dateline," correspondent Dennis Murphy and former FBI profiler and NBC News analyst Clint Van Zandt travel to the Italian hillside north of Rome to help untangle the conflicting stories and interpret the crime-scene evidence not yet reported on. Additionally, Knox's college friends speak out for the first time and Murphy sits down with one of the first suspects in the case who has been released from jail, bar owner Patrick Lumumba, for his first North American television interview.
When Murphy asks Lumumba why he thinks Knox lied about his being there the night of Kercher's murder, he says, "I think Amanda wanted to derail the investigation. That's what I think. She must have realized that the investigation was leading to her and must have thought that if she mentioned me because I'm black then the investigator's attention would shift to me. Its classic." Lumumba also tells "Dateline" he thinks Knox wants to be the center of attention and that, "she's a person capable of doing anything to be in the spotlight."
Hi Steve and all, gave up for a while, but am back now the comments have been returned to Haloscan and to the topic, & still following as and when I can. Had to check in also to say, lol @ muddy- 'plonker' hits the nail on the head (in the politest way possible...i try to be a laydee, so when a half-rhyme beginning with 'w' came to mind i decided not to comment it...and then you typed my thoughts!) xin- i hear ya, not only sexism but childishness in the extreme. Seriously some unresolved 'mommy' issues there! best to just ignore tho. it is clearly NOT you...
Nothing to say about the case @ the moment, and don't really have time to do more than read anyway, with how 'prolific' some people are, so choosing not to post. Another observation- from a distance, it's beginning to feel a little like 'rise of the sockpuppets II' in here...would hardly be surprised to see 'chikita bakana' rear it's head again 
Thanks to all of you who do have the time to have continued making genuine constructive and thoughtful comments- its been an interesting read. What a confusing and disturbing case.
Thinking of Meredith's family this coming week.
ER
Rob has been pointing out a potential occult aspect to the murder. For a while I've had a theory on this, but it's somewhat sensational so I didn't post. But since there continues to be a lack of motive, maybe it's worth putting out there.
Rudy's youtube video shows him talking about vampires and acting very strangely, almost possessed. He claims to have met Meredith at the Halloween party, where she was dressed as a vampire with blood red lips. Maybe they didn't actually meet, maybe he just saw her. Seeing her like that triggered his vampiric desires. The two shallow knife wounds were inflicted to mimic a vampire bite. A long time ago, someone (Pinecone?) mentioned that ingesting large amounts of blood would cause, to put it nicely, a need to go to the bathroom. The motive could be that the vampire within him was set loose.
I realize this theory doesn't explain the bulk of the evidence, but perhaps can account for an occult motive, if there is one?
La Stampa 12/21/07:
Mixture of Meredith's and Amanda's DNA Found on Tap
The hypothesis: "Washing Took Place After the Murder"
The position of Amanda Knox has worsened. Scientific Police identified two new traces of blood and DNA attributable to Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher in the bathroom of the house in Via della Pergola, in Perugia, where the English student was killed the night November first.
Blood on the sink
In particular, the outcome of investigations by the police and scientific consultants,on (Corsican?) elements carried out last week in the cottage where the girls lived, the DNA of American student Amanda Knox was found in blood on the sink tap, and the mixture of DNA belonging to Amanda and Meredith has been identified within the same basin, near the tap.
Amanda home
Traces of both Amanda's and Meredith's DNA (mixed) were then found by the Police Scientific experts on a box of plastic cotton swabs next to the sink in the bathroom. The new evidence strengthens even more investigators' belief that Amanda was at home during the murder of Meredith and that she participated in the murder.
The DNA of Knox, in fact, had already been found by scientific police experts on the handle of the knife seized at the home of Raffaele, with the DNA of Kercher found on the tip, while DNA mixture of the two students had been identified in the bidet in the bathroom of the cottage. The new evidence, Amanda's DNA found on the second tap, make investigators speculate that blood lost by the American student (colluttazione?), was perhaps a result of a blow to the nose. The small residual DNA mixture of the two girls found in the sink might have occurred as dirty(bloody) hands were washed in the sink, hands that may have touched the box of cotton swabs placed nearby, leaving the new evidence.
http://tinyurl.com/yth833
I'd expect to find a person's DNA at her residence. The residual DNA mixture in the sink could be due to their brushing their teeth at that sink.
BD
I’ve often felt that Rudy had some sort of blood fetish that kicked in at some stage in this murder. Certainly would account for the amount of blood, and the nature of the neck wounds. This may have been his proclivity and not necessarily shared by the whole group. Rudy would have been attracted by Meredith and her fake blood. Didn’t have to meet her and could have seen pictures on internet. Maybe contacted AK so he could come over to the house. It could have been one factor, but certainly not the only one. I think a confrontation occurred between others , giving Rudy a rare opportunity to have his way with Meredith w/o others bothering him.
Hi gang!
Looks like the only thing new around here has been the board changes. Seriously, outside of the discovery of the 2nd knife, it feels like groundhog day. I know a lot of evidence places all three (Rudy, Amanda, and Rafe) at the scene of the crime, but I wonder whether or not we will ever know what really happened in the cottage that night.
Question for our Italian friends:
Under Italian law, is this evidence truly enough to convict each of the suspects to lengthy prison sentences?
LUKE -- see, we all thought long & hard about you, and YOU came back! As to your question, let me beat Pinecone to his standard response: "What evidence? and which person?" But overall its a good one for our Italian posters. Wish one was in law like seattleite. Good to have you back!
Rob,
not far from the same area in the 70s and 80s the logest and most discussed serial killer case in Italy took place, the "monster of Florence". A man at the end was convicted together with some helpers and then died of a suspect death. They have talked about hidden messengers of the crimes whoch were mainly sexual with an occult nature. Other misterious death has sorrounded the case, one of them near Perugia. Judge Bufali was one of the people who worked on the case.
other mysterious deaths, sorry
I'd expect to find a person's DNA at her residence. The residual DNA mixture in the sink could be due to their brushing their teeth at that sink.
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 12:38 pm | #
Additional details from Repubblica 12/21/07:
These two tracks mixed DNA belonging to the student in Seattle and the victim, Meredith Kercher, isolated from many experts on blood stains found in one of two bathrooms of the house on Via della Pergola.
In particular, the DNA was isolated on two distinct blood stains: one found in the sink, close to the tap, and the other on a box of cotton swabs supported on the edge of the basin.
The bathroom where the DNA was isolated is next to the chamber Meredith's bedroom, not the bathroom where they found DNA of Rudy. The findings launched last week by scientific police experts in Rome, led by Alberto Intini, together with consultants of suspects, have therefore given further results, deemed very important...
http://tinyurl.com/3ygjmx
I thought it was really interesting that the door in the wall around the town wasn't open until 8AM, so the cell phone was discarded after that. I wonder what time Rudy made his escape?
I thought it was really interesting that the door in the wall around the town wasn't open until 8AM, so the cell phone was discarded after that. I wonder what time Rudy made his escape?
BeenHereAllAlong | 12.21.07 - 1:36 pm | #
Is it confirmed that it was Rudy that got rid of the phones?
Oh--tx!
How so? Fingerprints?
BeenHere,
I think annarbor was asking if it was confirmed not stating that it was.
Oh, sorry--I misunderstood! I don't think it has been confirmed that he did. Although he probably did.
No problem--I think that it's the general consensus that Rudy dumped them, but I'm not sure why.
Coyotewaits,
I don't think anyone here trusts the confession(s) supposedly made by AK. However, we do mistrust her own constant, conflicted, bizarre public statements about the murder; from the false claims made about Patrick Lumumba up to her confused statements about where she was and what she was doing on the night of the murder.
Her own statements, in my opinion, only serve to point to her own guilt or involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3084751.ece
New article in The Times. It covers the police forensic report detailed the La Stampa article, posted by Ann Arbor, above.
This article includes the following police information about the mixed DNA:
"Police said that the “mixed DNA” of Ms Knox and Ms Kercher was on two separate bloodstains, one inside the basin near the plughole and the other on a box of cottonwool balls on the side of the basin. Police said that there were two bathrooms at the cottage, one next to Ms Kercher's bedroom - where the mixed DNA was found in the basin - and another one in which the traces of Mr Guede's DNA were earlier found, including traces on faeces left in the lavatory."
Luke,
Good to have you back. Somehow, RobertM was correct in assuming that you would just show up here. There really has been nothing new on this case since you left, other than the interview with AK that ended in her supposed hysterics and her supposed refusal to answer additional questions.
There has been so much speculation about all the circumstantial evidence, that they only way to determine reality is to wait for a 'trial' and watch the cross-examination of the prosecutorial evidence. When this will happen is anyone's guess.
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 2:05 pm posted:
"Coyotewaits,
I don't think anyone here trusts the confession(s) supposedly made by AK. However, we do mistrust her own constant, conflicted, bizarre public statements about the murder; from the false claims made about Patrick Lumumba up to her confused statements about where she was and what she was doing on the night of the murder.
Her own statements, in my opinion, only serve to point to her own guilt or involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher."
bpcl,
bold highlights mine
Did you not mean to say "we do trust"?
bpcl: wrote "I don't think anyone here trusts the confession(s) supposedly made by AK. However, we do mistrust her own constant, conflicted, bizarre..."
From the time her lawyers came on the scene I am sure they told her "shut up....you were not there...let's see what they got." Prior to that I think she didn't read the disclaimer on the State Department website about how an American overseas is subject to the laws of the country they are visiting.
I do believe she didn't realize she was a suspect at first...I do believe she was subjected to a good naked light bulb interrogation (when she says she was hit on the head I always see that scene as a cop with a rolled up newspaper--not a fact just speculating).
Though there have been many references to "hash" and some theories about date rape drugs she may have ingested, I am waiting for some word about how much she drank that night ("vodka is my poinson") iePolish student testimony etc.
Cause you know what...if she is telling her truth in her early statements, it sounds like a classic alcoholic blackout.
from the URL posted by Viv
During her interrogation this week Ms Knox broke down “in an hysterical fit” when asked why she had accused Mr Lumumba, and how she knew details of Ms Kercher's murder if she was not present. These included her statement that the body was lying next to the wardrobe - where police believe Ms Kercher was in fact killed - when the body was found next to the bed, where it had apparently been dragged in a duvet.
Coyotewaits,
Wait a second there! You did not finish my post. AK has made numerous statements after the fact, both in her diary and in her interviews with the Police as is posted. You cannot say that she has been in alcoholic blackout during all these times.
Coyotewaits,
YES to your statement of fact "We do not trust"
Coyotewaits,
I am going to get into trouble here sooner than later. What I meant to say was that multitude of contradictory statements made by AK after the fact, only point to her involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
Ms Knox broke down “in an hysterical fit” when asked why she had accused Mr Lumumba,and how she knew details of Ms Kercher's murder if she was not present...
Geeeeez, If these questions caused her to dissolve into hysterical shaking fits, her head may explode if they ask her how her DNA and Meredith's DNA got mixed together in blood spots in the bathroom sink...
sorry, just thinking
bpcl:
If she is honestly trying to remember this horrific thing, he inability to remember "correctly" or even at all through "flashes" could make anyone unglued and of course for Amanda it would be a short trip.
BD | 12.21.07 - 12:06 pm
the vampire said he met Meredith at the spanish house party and said to her 'do you want to suck my blood cause we took your cup?'
he was referring to the rugby world cup recently won by south africa vs england in the final.
there is a lot of fucked up shit going on with this case for sure.
.
Steve has a new Radar article which would be nice if we recommended if we choose to. And he also has a new post up about loosing his job. Go here to get to the main page here to see:
crimehttp://www.truecrimeweblog.com/
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 2:21 pm posted:
"Coyotewaits,
Wait a second there! You did not finish my post. AK has made numerous statements after the fact, both in her diary and in her interviews with the Police as is posted. You cannot say that she has been in alcoholic blackout during all these times."
bpcl, I am sorry, you are obviously repling to the wrong person here...not sure who you meant your reply was for.
fan thanks for that info about the occult murders around Perugia linked to the occult monster of florence.
the authorities are scared and i have read that satanic rituals are being reported with greater frequency in central and northern italy.
it is funny how posters are reluctant to consider this possibility but will go off on equally bizarre theories.
i hope pineyconey dont blow a gasket when the big a finally melts down and confesses all. bless.
.
that was a thanks to FRAN not fan...sorry.
.
chris | 12.21.07 - 2:46 pm posted:
"Steve has a new Radar article which would be nice if we recommended if we choose to. And he also has a new post up about loosing his job. Go here to get to the main page here to see:
crimehttp://www.truecrimeweblog.com/"
Chris, that URL points just to the front page to Steve's Blog. Could you kindly post the actual link to the subject you are referring to: the Radar article and job lost. Thanks.
Chris:
Sorry, ignore my request. I now see what you are referring to on his main page.
OT)) Chris: The closing and layoff by CNN of the Crime Library resource and contributing editors to which Steve was one.
I haven't been writing for Crime Library for over a year. Them closing now has no effect on me at this point -- Radar pays better than CL did, anyway. But I would appreciate anyone familiar with the Crime Library coming to the entry to discuss it if they like.
Thanks!
Steve
ann arbor | 12.21.07 - 12:31 pm | #
--wow.
So happy to see erhw, AndyT rob,damian, and Luke here. We've missed you. Our chanting led by RobertM worked.
and thanks for the Dateline prompt, urge, sollecito et al. I'm a big fan of Clint VZ.
here is the link to Steve's recent Radar story.
http://tinyurl.com/2hd3k6
Before I mistakenly: put the word crime infront of http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/
and what I said appeared as though he was losing his job at Radar. Sorry.
DNA in the sink gets answered rather easily as its the sink AK & Meredith SHARED. And stuff gets mixed together when water is also involved.
DNA on the cotton swabs is a little trickier. Are these drops or smears? Drops can be deposited separately (plunk plunk) or come already mixed and then smeared, as in wiped off. Report does not say which. Answer is still the same: because its a SHARED bathroom.
Where else would you expect to find blood from two people in one small area? The bathroom they shared, of course. And then there's the matter of the TIME of deposit. If drops on the swabs only overlay & Amanda's overlays Meredith's, well, then, of course, Meredith's got there first & Amanda's later. If completely separate drops and/or if smeared, no way to tell TIME or DEPOSIT sequence at all. All that blood in a shared bathroom tells you is that yes the women shared the bathroom that they were supposed to share.
The blood in the shared bathroom as evidence AK was there on night of Nov 1 is bupkiss. They really have to come up with more or its the flimsiest cicrumstantial case against her. But that takes us back to the question posed above, re Italian jurisprudence: does such evidence satisfy the reasonable doubt requirment in its totality than each piece evidence separately? (The so-called confession as written wouldn't make it past an American evidentiary hearing. Now if ILE had taped the whole thing, THAT might make it past a US judge, IF the prosecutor decided that the "Chicago behavior" of his cops wouldn't undermine the case entirely. See cw's entry on the curent Fox case as above.]
xin - blog pics very itnersting & idea for the blog too. Care to make short explanation as I didn't see a Me Page there? [Short means less words than I use!!]
So, does this finding of Amanda's DNA, in a bathroom she shared, mean there was no clean up? What about the other housemates? Was none of their DNA found? If not, why? Did they do the clean up?
(((OT: RM...Let's see...short version of lack of bio (me?) page....hmmmm...take a look around. I just finished a small handmade book, edition of 10,and the pix are from that.
eventually i'll link it to my website about nontraditional (from 70s) performance, mail, installation in public places art in LA,some NY. Google is your friend. I have a sweet collection of art ephemera.)))
The blood in the shared bathroom as evidence AK was there on night of Nov 1 is bupkiss-RobertM
So, does this finding of Amanda's DNA, in a bathroom she shared, mean there was no clean up? What about the other housemates? Was none of their DNA found? If not, why? Did they do the clean up?
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 4:09 pm | #
If I recall, the reason that the LE originally stated that this bloodspot was significant was because it appeared to have been deposited after a thorough cleaning of the sink. There was no other blood/DNA found there. Ill have to look back to verify the link.
The other housemates shared the other bathroom, and have alibis that stand up.
Google may be my friend, but its no real substitute for a fine woman like yourself, nor for the accompanying wine from a micro-vineyard and the song of poets. (Shall I compare thee...) Will S-troll the electronic highway in pursuit.
Does anyone else find it paradoxical or amusing that on the one hand AKs team/supporters say that it's legitimate that her prints aren't in her own home yet that at the same time it's legitimate that she left stale blood on a regularly used bathroom?
I mean wich one is it? she spent so much time in that house she bled on the bathroom and it's an old blood drop. Or that she spent so little time there she didn't leave fingerprints?
ps: any updates on Molly Rominelli?
As to CLEANING -- By cleaning we should agree that that means no fingerprints primarily, and no extraneous things like human blood & hair. Given that, one of the magistrates indicated that the rooms "cleaned" were (1) Amanda's bedroom, and (2) the kitchen, except for that one cup with the one fingerprint of Amanda's. The shared bathroom was not mentioned to the best of my memory.
NOTE:
Amanda's now-consistent version is that when she returned to the house, despite the front door being unlocked (which, like rob said, would have creeped me out), she then took a shower and presumably also used the sink there. Again, if asked as a question specifically--did you clean the bathroom afer you took a shower, there's been no leak on that.
If the bathroom was NOT cleaned as per above, then her stuff & Meredith's would be all over it. And one would expect to find things like blood deposits int he sink.
Omagh Bombing & LCN DNA
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 7:51 am | #
that's more to do with the McCann case. are they even using it in this case. maybe when it comes to the knife. But then, RS bloody footprint & no pc activity & bleach rceipts (given his maids account) are enough for him.
I'm curious whether any of the women here think that they often bleed into their bathroom sink.
I grew up sharing a bath with 5 sisters, and once we got to high school age, other than menstrual blood (which, as it has been mentioned here, is discernable from other blood), we just didn't cut ourselves on a regular basis, and if one of us did, it was unlikely that another did at the same time.
Men shave their faces over the sink, but most women shave their legs and underarms in the shower or bath. If a women cuts her leg shaving, she will take care of it over the tub, not hike her leg up over the sink....
Do most of the woment here agree? Or am i off with this supposition?
I guess I don't see this as circumstantial evidence. And I wonder what would be considered concrete evidence for Pinecone and RobertM. Would there have to be photos of the crime in progress? Plus signed confessions given freely by suspects who aren't questioned by police? I'm not trying to be snarky, but calling this blood evidence the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence seems to me to be a stretch...Thoughts? Ladies?
manda's now-consistent version is that when she returned to the house....she then took a shower and presumably also used the sink there. Again, if asked as a question specifically--did you clean the bathroom afer you took a shower, there's been no leak on that. Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 4:36 pm | #
New reports (i'll post links in a min) suggest AKs blood has been found on a box of q-tips/cotton wool earbuds on the sink?
she did mentions RS cleaning her ears.
she must have either lent over that box, or had her own blood on her own hand, or RS had her blood on his hand.
I don't think she had a nose bleed, I think she cut herself during the attack maybe on that knife found at RS house, or else it's her menstral blood.
The One Key Place That Wasn't Cleaned
That was Meredith's room. ILE have found a LOT of stuff there. Including bits & pieces of Rudy and it still seems DNA on swabs that does not match any of the three. (We haven't heard much about that recently.) What hasn't been found AT ALL are bits & pieces of either Amanda or Rafe (except for the shoe imprint supposedly). IF Amanda was a direct participant in any way (as I have argued on Halo I & II), THEN something of her should be in & among the post-murder debris. The absence of evidence works both ways, of course: her alleged cleaning can still be related to the murder, or not, even if she was never in Meredith's room at the time. But having NO EVIDENCE as to her presence in the room before during & after Meredith's death puts my theory on shaky ground, as it does the ILE reconstruction.
To believe anyone was involved in the killing, I'd have to see their DNA in the murder room or on the victim.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 3:57 pm posted:
"DNA in the sink gets answered rather easily as its the sink AK & Meredith SHARED. And stuff gets mixed together when water is also involved.
DNA on the cotton swabs is a little trickier. Are these drops or smears? Drops can be deposited separately (plunk plunk) or come already mixed and then smeared, as in wiped off. Report does not say which. Answer is still the same: because its a SHARED bathroom.
Where else would you expect to find blood from two people in one small area? The bathroom they shared, of course. And then there's the matter of the TIME of deposit. If drops on the swabs only overlay & Amanda's overlays Meredith's, well, then, of course, Meredith's got there first & Amanda's later. If completely separate drops and/or if smeared, no way to tell TIME or DEPOSIT sequence at all. All that blood in a shared bathroom tells you is that yes the women shared the bathroom that they were supposed to share.
The blood in the shared bathroom as evidence AK was there on night of Nov 1 is bupkiss. They really have to come up with more or its the flimsiest cicrumstantial case against her. But that takes us back to the question posed above, re Italian jurisprudence: does such evidence satisfy the reasonable doubt requirment in its totality than each piece evidence separately? (The so-called confession as written wouldn't make it past an American evidentiary hearing. Now if ILE had taped the whole thing, THAT might make it past a US judge, IF the prosecutor decided that the "Chicago behavior" of his cops wouldn't undermine the case entirely. See cw's entry on the curent Fox case as above.]"
Glad to see your postings now reflecting rational and critical thinking with regards to the nature of circumstantial evidence, even though it is physical and scientifically analyzed bits of matter from the crime scene.
Such postings from a rational thinker who is the most erudite poster amongst us is welcomed by this poster who has been pointing this out for several days, (yet having a hard time getting anyones attention without pulling off a satirical post that certainly did wake people up...but then again only on the wrong side of the bed. Keep an open mind folks as to what exactly you are reading in the press before drawing conclusions of its impact on the guilt or innocence of any of the suspects.
Thanks Robert M.
Intini said blood belonging to the two women was also found on a box of cotton swabs on the side of the sink. He told CNN that drops of Kercher's blood were also found on the bathroom floor.... Intini said the new evidence was found in a separate part of the same sink, although he did not specify where. Asked why it had taken so long to come to light, he said forensics had uncovered over 200 "organic" pieces of evidence from the murder scene and the process of identifying where they all came from was taking a long time. http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORL...kercher.murder/
--------------------------------
Police said that the “mixed DNA” of Ms Knox and Ms Kercher was on two separate bloodstains, one inside the basin near the plughole and the other on a box of cottonwool balls on the side of the basin.
[[so it's eithe ear buds, or balls. 2 different uses, no?]]]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3084751.ece
----------
http://www.thefutoncritic.com/
li...d=20071220nbc01
anyone in the US/Seattle catch this. PLs 1st US interview & cllaims to unprecidented access to DNA/forensic evidence.
If I recall, the reason that the LE originally stated that this bloodspot was significant was because it appeared to have been deposited after a thorough cleaning of the sink. There was no other blood/DNA found there. Ill have to look back to verify the link.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 4:19 pm | #
haven't seen that. cool.
I don't believe that they found OJ's DNA at the crime scene, although there was a ton of circumstantial evidence--and perhaps that's one of the reasons(ha!)that he was found not guilty. Anyone here believe he was innocent?
a2/annarbor - a Tip of my full-of-DNA Gillette Turbo Razor in your direction for discerning that WHERE matters!! It slipped my mind, for sure, especially in my now extended single state. I'd suppose the vast number of Ladies shave in the shower/tub. I've known a few to do otherwise, especially for a quick clean-up, using the top of the toilet seat as a foot rest. But, yes, blood mix for women sharing the same bathroom would most likely be in the tub or shower.
[Johnny Depp in SWEENY TOOD, THE DEMON BARBER premieres tonight around the US, speaking of razors & blood.]
((OT: you are too kind, RM, watch for email in a bit with some clues. as we get older, our story gets longer, so it's here and there.))
A2 (A squared) is the shortened version of the city name commonly used here. I switched to annarbor when we went to Disqus because I mistakenly thought we needed a six letter user name...I'll answer to either, though!
Johnny Depp
swoon
and don't forget
From Hell
early
plays Jack the Ripper.
ah so many choices
....cliff...johnny
I don't believe that they found OJ's DNA at the crime scene, although there was a ton of circumstantial evidence--and perhaps that's one of the reasons(ha!)that he was found not guilty. Anyone here believe he was innocent?
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:01 pm | #
they found poor nicole's blood a little drip on the inside part (that's invisible when closed) of driver's door in the bronco. there was dna, but the jury thought "c'mon...that TINY little speck?"
there are those in the know in LA who think that jury was bought off.
there are those in the know in LA who think that jury was bought off.
xin | 12.21.07 - 5:12 pm | #
How much money do you 'spose the Solecito family has? Hmmmmm.
well, PINECONE, with 200+ pieces of organic substance, of which I suspect most is still being processed, you may get your wish.
Thanks, LOZ for the update links. Stuff new to us such as "He told CNN that drops of Kercher's blood were also found on the [small] bathroom floor....
Well, Meredith didn't put them there. Rudy could have, but we know he used the large bathroom. Unless you want to suppose Rudy left the death room to wash his bloody hands in the small bathroom, then decided to use the large bathroom for his other needs. [Naaah.] Easier to suppose Rudy used the large bathroom because the small bathroom was already in use.
Oh, a semi-aside, not sure where I saw the following today, but don't think it was above. A Piece of Self-Defense Advice for the Ladies: Remember you have TEETH. If being attacked, your teeth can do a lot of damage, plus teeth bites leave distinctive marks on the attacker for latter reference. Men & children should remember this too, of course. In another case that has finished adjudication, two young women tried to talk, not bite. Perhaps one could have escaped.
How much money do you 'spose the Solecito family has? Hmmmmm.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:14 pm |
certainly enough to do some significant damage...like screw up evidence, for example, if not climibing higher up the food chain.
does anybody know if scotland yard can come into this crime (thru proper diplomatic channels of course); a Brit was killed in Italy.
Yo--Loz--very nice work. Thanks.
x
Oh, a semi-aside, not sure where I saw the following today, but don't think it was above. A Piece of Self-Defense Advice for the Ladies: Remember you have TEETH. ..Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 5:24 pm | #
One of my former assistants told me the best trick--she escaped rape, she said she learned this from having five brothers.
The bad guy came up behind her and put his hand over her mouth. she took both of her hands, put them on his hand across her mouth, and pushed hard, IN. Then she bit the hell out of him and he split.
Pretty smart.
The implication of both AK and MK blood being found, some mixed, in the shared bathroom as circumstantial evidence is thus: It does indicate that the blood of both women is recent, had not been removed in cleaning (obviously) and meant at some time in the previous 24 hours (assuming evidence gathering is late on the 2nd early on the 3rd) AK deposited her blood there and someone else deposited MK blood there. This is a reasonable assumption by the prosecution to present to a judge/jury. No challenges to that.
The circumstantial implication that AK blood could have already been there, say from earlier in the day of the 1st and not cleaned up by her, (menstrual blood on bidet, on her hand transfered to sink, nosebleed, cut,etc.) and then that the killer in washing up deposited MK blood over and about the same areas. Reasonable assumption by the defense to present to a judge/jury.
When it comes to circumstantial evidence it becomes obviously the preponderance in sum of all such circumstantial evidence which the judge/jury takes into account. Obviously in the OJ criminal trial it didn't fly with the jury (given the great defense attorney skills he had and the incompetent LA district attorneys, close editorial) but in so many other cases it is quite the opposite. Even when the "c" evidence is weak some juries will take the preponderance of that circumstantial evidence, even with no real physical evidence added, and convict.
Opinion: If what we are reading in the Italian press really reflects what evidence is available and is true then it appears to me that prosecutors have a good case of circumstantial evidence to, at least, implicate and hopefully convince judge/jury that AK participated in the killing (not necessarily the actual act) of MK.
On the other hand, with a defense team like OJ had, Robert M and I have been demonstrating how to pick apart circumstantial evidence to make the preponderance of it reflect "not guilty". No one, not the least I, is trying to change anyones mind here and how they feel themselves about what they are concluding from what they read. But I am saying, and I hope Robert means the same, is that it is always worthy to keep an open mind when it comes to circumstantial evidence.
CHRIS - I was the one who said suffocation from a pillow can cause death,fx of hyoid bone, and bruises to mouth and gums - at the end of halo#2 - it is shaped like a horseshoe and you can feel it right under your chin and move it back and forth - maybe how rudy got his fingerprint on the pillow -
if the knife punctured the external jugular vein (found between the lower jaw and clavicle)then yes she would bleed out very slowly -
raff and father say he was home all nite and the only reason he is in jail is because -
ak implicates him - so- why have they not said she was not at raff's house that nite - she says she was there all nite ???
thanx to all you guys here cuz my puter just freezes up at steves disqus place -
As the Portuguese have had to turn to the UK crime labs, both LE and private, for DNA runs, the ILE would have to conclude that they LACK certain advanced techniques for, say, separation of multiple-mixed or highly degraded DNA. I'd think that CSI-Italy would be reluctant to do so, but would see use of UK labs as providing confirming analysis on the tough issues. Dr. S is likely looking abroad to line up other labs for an "objective" analysis IF anything from the 200+ pieces puts Rafe in Meredith's room. And that would include analysis of the shoe-sole imprint. As to Amanda, HER blood is actually where you'd suppose you'd find it.
CW concluded just above: "it is always worthy to keep an open mind when it comes to circumstantial evidence." To which I would think Pinecone would say "its necessary to do so for ANY evidence." And so applies a very strict Occam's Razor* to all this (i.e. Rudy did it all). And I certainly agree, as an historian, that each separate evidence has to be evaluated for its validity. See above about GIGO & the Omagh fiasco.
But evidence exists in context, and a piece of self-evident context is that none of this happens without Amanda's presence. As xin says, she's the connector. To me she's the catalyst, and yes, despite the current lack of specific evidence beyond the blood spots which MAY have been deposited in the small bathroom AFTER it was clean (but we don't know that for sure), I KNOW she's somewhere in or near that house as Meredith dies.
* footnote: Hhhmmm. IF Johnny Depp played Franciscan friar William of Okham elucidating logic itself and the logic of faith to his male studnets, would the Ladies STILL swoon?
later los amigos
Loz | 12.21.07 - 4:34 pm posted:
"Does anyone else find it paradoxical or amusing that on the one hand AKs team/supporters say that it's legitimate that her prints aren't in her own home yet that at the same time it's legitimate that she left stale blood on a regularly used bathroom?
I mean wich one is it? she spent so much time in that house she bled on the bathroom and it's an old blood drop. Or that she spent so little time there she didn't leave fingerprints?"
Loz, considering that I am not a supporter of AK per se, but that I am a supporter of law, fair practices thereof (ha ha, in most cases, doubtful) and analyzing the evidence to all possibilities, not just those thought because of a preconceived idea of what happened: I think the implication is that if she did clean up to remove traces of herself being at the crime scene when the crime happened, she did a very poor job of it, not cleaning the bathroom better or not at all;
or purposefully not cleaning the bathroom not thinking some of her own blood could be there, again pretty stupid;
or in fact she never did any clean up at anytime after the crime which is a possibility.
Given the last possibility, LE has put together other circumstantial evidence to support their contention that there was a clean up for the reasons you also point out (no fingerprints in her own house/room). If they can demonstrate to a judge/jury there was a cleanup, then of course the defense for AK could not have it both ways in trying to counter that circumstantial conjecture. So good point!
I agree with AnnArbor and Loz. The issue re: female blood in the bathroom is being misunderstood by the male posters here. It doesn't happen that often. When it does happen, it is wiped up. It is very unusual for a woman to leave blood in the bathroom especially when it's shared with others. If it's menstrual blood, it would be on the toilet seat or on the floor near the toilet, not on the basin near the plughole or on a box of cotton balls/swabs. Menstrual blood has a different quality to it. If Amanda's blood is in the small bathroom with Meredith's, it is because Amanda held the knife.
Loz | 12.21.07 - 4:34 pm
coyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 5:58 pm
Your points about the alleged clean-up and blood drops are compelling. At the same time, I wonder if the reverse isn't true: if there was a massive clean up, so exacting that only one print of Amanda was found in the entire apartment, then why were stains of blood left? Why not clean up the sink where you washed off someone's blood and your own if you were so meticulous as to wipe even your own room of your fingerprints?
Also, if the ILE conjectures that Amanda's blood may have come from a bloody nose she got as a result of a blow during a struggle, I would expect there would be traces of Amanda's blood and DNA in Meredith's room. Also, if there was a direct struggle, and Meredith was able to take a swipe at Amanda's face, you'd think there'd be Amanda's hair at the crime scene. Maybe when the forensics are done, such evidence will come to light. Maybe not.
the monster of florence wasn't he RS 'hero'?
anyway "where police believe Ms Kercher was in fact killed - when the body was found next to the bed, where it had apparently been dragged in a duvet."
why, including why staging it near the beg is better than the wardrobe, why drag it.
did they want to open the wardrobe doors?
BD | 12.21.07 - 6:26 pm | #
--I 2nd that post. my thoughts too.
* footnote: Hhhmmm. IF Johnny Depp played Franciscan friar William of Okham elucidating logic itself and the logic of faith to his male studnets, would the Ladies STILL swoon?
Yes. Yes. Yes. (whomever that is you refer to, doesn't matter if he's a Depp character) Yes.
((Just now sending Ms Alioto a card and note about Amanda.))
I am unsure of traces of AK in MKs room, she may never or very very rarely went in there while living together. Plus on the night, she might not have to have used the doorknob, YES to lock it, but she could have been careful.
The bedroom floors are tiled & wipable. indeed, RHGs bloodied prints on the pillow, but his footprints, dirt tracks or bloodied, were absent?
AKs print was found on MKs face...
Given the last possibility, LE has put together other circumstantial evidence to support their contention that there was a clean up for the reasons you also point out (no fingerprints in her own house/room). If they can demonstrate to a judge/jury there was a cleanup, then of course the defense for AK could not have it both ways in trying to counter that circumstantial conjecture. So good point!
coyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 5:58 pm | #
they can demonstrate it from luminol glowing up from the bleach too
Ann Arbor,
Do not worry too much about what others state here. They are hypotheses like yours and mine. In a way, Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly, even though some of us would like to. All three have compelling ideas about how the crime took place. I have always believed that the truth lies somewhere between RG doing everything(Pinecone's theory) to a ritualistic affair(I believe to be Coyotewaits theory) to RobertM's theory which I believe runs along the lines of Coyotewaits theory.
We have been fooled here from the beginning about what is evidence and what is not. The case started going sideways when AK framed Patrick Lumumba; and the Police followed that lead and incorrectly imprisoned him. Much of the evidence presented so far is hearsay really and we just have to wait for the trial.
For myself, I tend to follow the words said by all the suspects and look for conflicts in them; and there are many.
From their own words I can assume that something is afoot with their alibis. The real test will be the forensic evidence(when it is properly presented and cross-examined) and the strength of their individual alibis are lack thereof. Respect.
one last thing: not heard much about RS bloodied fingerprint on the inside of the door of MKs room.
Guess that can't be explained by a popular make of shoe, or him entering the room when the ILE arrived. I find it impossible to imagine he put him hand in some blood then touched the door after the crime.
In a way, Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly, even though some of us would like to... tend to follow the words said by all the suspects and look for conflicts in them
bpcl
weell said
they can demonstrate it from luminol glowing up from the bleach too
Loz | 12.21.07 - 6:51 pm |
Bleach and blood are not the only substances that can cause the luminescence. Some metals and other substances also cause the glow. Maybe there's a metallic pigment in the interior paint of that old cottage. You never can tell.
Hi Loz!
RS talked about the monster of Foligno, a man who killed two kids in the same region of Perugia (Umbria). Actually when I read Rs's blog I thought he was "trying" to be funny
In a way, Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly...
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 7:07 pm
Speaking for myself, RG has hung himself. There's nothing circumstantial about the evidence against him. It doesn't require much analysis to figure out how his DNA got where it was found.
He's had some entertaining stories. I liked the recent tale about one of the real killers wearing a white hat with a red stripe. I wonder if it was a floppy hat like the one Jeffrey MacDonald saw. The real killers might be that same gang of hippies from Fayetteville.
Loz,
Thank you for your kind comments. I, I..well for lack of better words, I have just come to the conclusion, that we have heard about as much as we are going to hear about this case, and will just have to sit back and wait for a trial. The prosecution is leaking material to see what the lawyers for the suspects will say, and the lawyers for the suspects are responding back; it other words, both sides are preparing for the real battle to come. I have this funny conspiracy theory in my mind (and I could be completely out of wack in saying this here) that this blog and others are being watched and that the Prosecution is very careful not to put out any real serious pre-trial information, for fear that it would be dissected and re-dissected by all the brilliant people here and elsewhere, all to the benefit of the defenses of the suspects.
Appears tonight's Dateline is running a two hour show on the case! (along with the Peterson case.)
Luke,
Nice to see you and glad to have your participation back!
its hard to take coyote as 'the voice of reason' considering the case was closed for this poster in mid november and the howling about Patrick's quilt and stupidity was so loud from her posted comments.
anyway i just scroll by this posters rubbish now but it sure is a lengthy job.
i have said that all along there is no evidence for us to know. just a dead girl and legal reports to read if you know italian and even the first 40 pager has blacked out segments so aint a full picture.
i want to follow the trial so will wait for that. if anything big breaks i will check you lot out again.
in the meantime heres hoping you all have a good new year, plonkers too.
rasta la bagel.
.
rob,
Merry Christmas to you too! And keep the faith!
Luke
Nice to see you and glad to have your participation back!
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 7:45 pm | #
Ditto
one more thing sorry...has it been confirmed that one of the big a's sweatshirts is missing? i neve got an answer to that.
.
Rob,
And I think the lawyers for each of the current suspects have warned them that no matter how silly they might have looked, what with their statements and all, their defense must be, "united we stand or divided we fall!"
thanks same to you bpcl. can you shed any light on the sweatshirt?
.
Didn't mean to just up and leave on you guys..
I took an early holiday to spend time with my family (who live a few hours away from me.) We spend X-mas with my wife's family.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 4:36 pm posted:
"NOTE:
Amanda's now-consistent version is that when she returned to the house, despite the front door being unlocked (which, like rob said, would have creeped me out), she then took a shower and presumably also used the sink there. Again, if asked as a question specifically--did you clean the bathroom afer you took a shower, there's been no leak on that.
If the bathroom was NOT cleaned as per above, then her stuff & Meredith's would be all over it. And one would expect to find things like blood deposits int he sink."
Does anyone really believe that she took a shower, if upon arriving she finds the door unlocked (ajar?) and upon entering the bathroom she see blood in the sink and on the floor?
? Didn't she state that these are the things that led her to return to RS and seek his counsel about something not being right about the house. In the meantime before so returning to RS she decides "oh I think I'll jump in the shower, then I'll go talk to RS". Either AK is one stupid lier (meaning like in really stupid or the 3 year old type level of lie construction) or her statements are distorted (have we seen them in writing or just excerpts published and translated by media, Robert calls them her now consistent story, re:her diary or what LE said she made in verbal statements to them?) or is the blood evidence not real (got to assume it is).
As Lox said you "can't have it both ways". In this case you can't have it all three ways.
What are conditions like in AK's prison? Food?
Anyone have any information about what her cell might look like? Is she in a single cell with those other women I read about?
What would the criminal trial be like? (jury? Judge?)
Also, any information about her parents? Is her mother Jewish, by any chance?
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 4:53 pm posted:
"That was Meredith's room. ILE have found a LOT of stuff there. Including bits & pieces of Rudy and it still seems DNA on swabs that does not match any of the three. (We haven't heard much about that recently.) What hasn't been found AT ALL are bits & pieces of either Amanda or Rafe (except for the shoe imprint supposedly). IF Amanda was a direct participant in any way (as I have argued on Halo I & II), THEN something of her should be in & among the post-murder debris. The absence of evidence works both ways, of course: her alleged cleaning can still be related to the murder, or not, even if she was never in Meredith's room at the time. But having NO EVIDENCE as to her presence in the room before during & after Meredith's death puts my theory on shaky ground, as it does the ILE reconstruction."
Most powerful observation Robert, especially the part about "it still seems DNA on swabs that does not match any of the three. (We haven't heard much about that recently.)"
Does anyone think that LE is still following up on the Mr.&Ms. CS or as Pinecone and I might suspect a RG buddy that might have been there. Especially now that LE claims there are witnesses who heard multiple people (two, three more? that's never been clear to me) running from the house.
LE's story gets stronger and stronger for me again about AK & RS involvement theory but Robert's comment jarred me back to the possibility of more than the three suspects and the victim being there. And the last RG detention hearing document disclosed the words "multiple persons" who had unfettered access to the house without stating that multiple just meant "three persons". Wonder if they do continue to look for more?
Coyotewaits,
The student wrote that she came home Thursday after spending the night elsewhere and noticed the front door to the home she shared with three roommates was open. Her three housemates appeared to be out, she said. After taking a shower, she said, she saw drops of blood on the floor and a room looked as if it had been ransacked. She began to panic when she checked Kercher's door and found it to be locked, she wrote to Paxton.
http://
seattletimes.nwsource.com...ebitaly07m.html
OT)) annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:01 pm posted:
"I don't believe that they found OJ's DNA at the crime scene, although there was a ton of circumstantial evidence--and perhaps that's one of the reasons(ha!)that he was found not guilty. Anyone here believe he was innocent?"
Wasn't that the whole scene where he was fully covered with clothes (later in the bag taken with him to Chicago) and that he wore gloves at the crime scene (remember the famous glove evidence presented by Marcia Clark) that if it don't fit you have to acquit. Even though he supposedly cut himself on the hand (through the glove?) during the stabbing, but claimed he cut breaking a glass in his hand at his Chicago hotel room when LE had called to tell him his ex-wife had been killed.
No, not me. He was guilty. But at least in that case we had the civil case results that did find him guilty which helped some to put aside their outrage at the poor prosecution and circus atomosphere of the entire trial.
Coyotewaits,
A female witness has pointed out that she heard the footsteps of at least two persons running from the house(I believe) Assuming RG, AK and RS were in the home, and we know RG(who has admitted to being there) was supposedly one of the persons who almost knocked someone down, then that leaves us with another suspect. I highly doubt if it were RS, because I do not think that he would have split on AK, assuming they were in the cottage. RS and AK were just two of the same kind.
That being said, it still leaves a possible suspect out there. RG has stated that he fought with an attacker(we must assume he speaks in half truths too) and this attacker he speaks of, could have been the other person who was participating and now, also fleeing the crime scene; thus leaving RS and AK not only alone. but also. forcing them to do the cleanup.
took some time to return home from work, have some dinner and some wine. Catching up on the interesting posts made in the last couple of hours and will start withe the most important first. w* footnote: Hhhmmm. IF Johnny Depp played Franciscan friar William of Okham elucidating logic itself and the logic of faith to his male studnets, would the Ladies STILL swoon?ith:
Easy - YES. Most definitely, Yes!
OT)) annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:01 pm
also at the time of the OJ crime DNA forensic evidence gathering was in it's infancy with regards to training LE to handle the crime scene discovery of it and the laboratory processing of it. Remember the famous Dr. Henry Lee for the defense who pillared the prosecutions presented DNA evidence against OJ. It is also though amusing to see, I think it was in the Phil Spector trial (could be wrong) but some recent Los Angeles trial where the prosecuting attorney pillared Dr. Lee's defense testimony 13 years later because LE now knows quite well how to handle DNA evidence.
Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly
You know, believe it or not, I am not trying to hang any of them. Pinecones stalwart, unshakable position has given me pause at times. But I believe that at some point, you must go beyond the concrete, definite hard evidence and use your brain, intelligence, and even intuition. A bit of circumstantial evidence is one thing. But a preponderance of circumstantial evidence, along with obvious fabrications on the part of the suspects, and some new forensic evidence and witness statements implies that perhaps something more than the easy, simple answer.
The use of thought and deduction is not a bad thing. I'm not ready to hang anyone, but im willing to listen and look at additional evidence and consider it in a larger context.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 5:42 pm post:
I didn't follow the McCann case much except what was in the headlines. This is true though that the Portugal LE had to turn to the UK laboratories and DNA experts for analysis of evidence?
LE's story gets stronger and stronger for me again about AK & RS involvement theory but Robert's comment jarred me back to the possibility of more than the three suspects and the victim being therecoyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 8:25 pm | #
I have felt all along that there was at least one and more likely two additional people present, and that there presence was key to the sequence of events that led to the murder.
I remember that there was a short time after the discovery of the bloody handprint and the faeces in the bathroom that the LE played down the possible "fourth man" until they actually identified Rudy and were close to his capture. I believe that LE is still working to identify and capture the Mystery couple....But, as always, just my opinion.
Time to watch Dateline...
The last I remember reading of the missing sweatshirt, was that the police were still looking for it. It was assumed it was too blood-stained for Knox to hold on to.
Re: fingerprints. . . when Knox went back to the house to have a shower, how come there were none of her fingerprints anywhere in the bathroom except for the one on the tap? I bet if the police inspected my bathroom after I'd had a shower, they'd find fingerprints everywhere, light switch, towels, sink/basin - how likely is it (honestly) that I would only leave "one" fingerprint?
--------------------
Emily Booth | 12.21.07 - 6:15 pm
"If Amanda's blood is in the small bathroom with Meredith's, it is because Amanda held the knife."
If Amanda's blood is in the small bathroom with Meredith's, it is because she was bleeding from some where herself at some time before or after MK blood also was deposited there. (not meaning to just split hairs but to ask further:
As previously noted so far we have heard no evidence of AK blood in MK bedroom.
It is possible AK held the knife, but maybe just held it to wash it off.
Your statement implies, or at least I inferred, that she held it and cut herself while using it to stab MK. But we still do not have any evidence at all as to the latter.
(Hmmm, held knife to clean it with bleach and water, accidentally cutting herself, thus leaving a trace of her own DNA on the handle before putting it in bag to take back to RS flat).
But then why, knowing she had cut herself (or did she know), did she not even more carefully clean the bathroom? This whole case is just so baffling, especially as the judge notes, with regards to the motive.
CW re McCann case & Portugal use of UK labs: YES -- and they didn't like what they heard and have apparently sent even more stuff for analysis because they do not have resources. And have sent stuff despite the former head of CSI-P coming out in the papers there and saying forthrightly that the apartment as a crime scene was totally compromised from before the police arrived, and they made matters worse. He called for national standards & training in US & UK crime scene techniques. (For instance, did not formally interview a key witness as to Gerry McCann's whereabouts until November and then had the Leisceter police do so. EGADS!)
The National PLE at some important mid-levels seems to resemble J Edgar Hoover's early 1960s-1970s FBI. However, the new chief in charge of the McCann case has put his detectives back to ground zero, i.e. no evidence that Maddy died in the apartment, which is the motivating JUDGEMENT of the mid-level detectives against the McCanns.
My point with the Omagh Fiasco post of early this am is to point out that no matter how technically good a CSI unit is, if the ground level control is poor, its GIGO --> garbage in, garbage out.
ROB --> re SWEATSHIRT As soozieUk says its been a while since we heard anything about it and I only remember it being referenced here without a link to a newspaper article. If Amanda was directly questioned about its whereabouts, after say the PM established that she had been wearing such an item on Nov 1 and that its was now not in her wardrobe, and either answered or refused, well, we have had NO LEAK on that question. Therefore, I think it could be a rumor derived from the pics of Nov 2. That is, a mismatched top & bottom led to speculation the top was missing due to it being too bloodied to clean, when in fact nothing is missing. No inventory of her clothes has been released by the ILE. One would presume, that such an inventory was taken, but...
When she was arrested & being escorted, her top with hood SEEMED to match the leggings, which by the script design of the name seemed to be a Seattle Mariners sweatpants (the S was very elaborate which tends to be a US baseball thing, whereas the Supersonics are a cleaner style). But such an athletically-inclined young lady would have several pairs, even duplicates.
All you DATELINE watchers here in the US. Blogment away when you get the chance. Thanks in advance. Interested to know if Van Zandt's views have matured/changed since his last MSNBC posting on this case, which was early November and tentative.
LOZ -- coming back to a short claim you made above: "AKs print was found on MKs face..."
I believe it was over on Disqus that a new poster put up a multi-post with links on the SCIENCE OF LATENT PRINTS TAKEN FROM HUMAN SKIN. Its a technique that can work in some circumstances and you need to know what you are doing. I do not think it was applied here.
Why? Because IF ILE had a good fingerprint of Amanda anywheres in Meredith's room, especially one taken from the body, THEN they would have The Smoking Gun and have no need to thoroughly pursue the blood evidence in other rooms as they are doing. Game, set, match & throw away the key. Ditto for Rafe. The leaker got ahead of him/herself in describing what was cataloged at the autopsy, which was likely Impressions of Human Fingers on Meredith's face. But no prints. There's just Rudy's fingerprint on the bloody pillow.
PARANOIA RUNS DEEP, INTO YOUR LIFE IT WILL CREEP
To BCPL, well, it appears that we've had a Prime Suspect read one of Steve's blogs, and he's since been arrested. (See Nailah Franklin) How about that!!. Also, a key witness blogmented in another thread under a handle, along with her aunt, but only AFTER testifying in her ex-husband's murder trial. We THINK that a member of the defense team was monitoring & also commenting. All I know is that months & months later I received notice that I was going to be supoenaed [sp?] as part of the appeal. Local prosecutors got that withdrawn. But to have a current prosecutorial team here as silent readers? Well its possible but if so on previous threads, no one has tipped their hand.
Interested to know if Van Zandt's views have matured/changed since his last MSNBC posting on this case, which was early November and tentative.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 9:38 pm |
He's still got his head up his ass, Robert M. He ended his worthless analysis of the case by saying investigators are hoping/expecting one of the three suspects to squeal on the other two.
Where's Dan Abrams?
Pinecone:
I was just watching Judge Perino with Baden on Fox...not really watching it but it is in the background and I hear GRUSOME NEWS FROM ITALY...and they go on to make twenty factually ludicrous statements (like did you know the murder took place at 8:30?) Heads up ass? Its a shame you can't convict talking heads of extreme blather.
rob | 12.21.07 - 7:58 pm posted:
"its hard to take coyote as 'the voice of reason' considering the case was closed for this poster in mid november and the howling about Patrick's quilt and stupidity was so loud from her posted comments. anyway i just scroll by this posters rubbish now but it sure is a lengthy job. i have said that all along there is no evidence for us to know. just a dead girl and legal reports to read if you know italian and even the first 40 pager has blacked out segments so aint a full picture.i want to follow the trial so will wait for that. if anything big breaks i will check you lot out again.in the meantime heres hoping you all have a good new year, plonkers too.rasta la bagel."
--------------------
Rob, you can call coyote and others names, trash them, flame them, it wouldn't be the first time and it doesn't bother me and I hope not the others.
But not sticking to the facts and the truth should not be something that one would think of yourself as doing, including yourself.
But your emotions show your character to put down someone else's posts rather than just ignore them as you claim you do when you care not for what they have to say. Obviously you don't ignore them since you are now back to doing what you did previously, attacking the poster Ad Hominem or changing the subject when you wish not to argue the evidence, facts and in this case the truth about my previous post
Anyway here are the facts at what I said back on Nov 19th and 24th when I concluded that AK, RS and a 4th person at that time still unknown (not PL) were the prerps of Meredith murder. At this date PL was already being on the verge of being released and we all knew that. Damian, also incorrectly criticized me with the same rush to judgment on PL, but when pointed out to him his incorrect assumption about what I had actually posted, acknowledged his error.
So just pointing out the facts again to you. See summary of the posts here.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=17318#62788
No need to respond. Thanks for reading.
Dan Abrams? I always thought of him as a Geraldo wannabe....And, geeez, Who the hell wants to be a second hand tabloid journalist like Geraldo?!
All these talking heads have their talking heads up there ass. At lease VS has 20 years of legit experience. Last time I saw Geraldo he was talking about Al Capone's safe. Last time I saw Dan Abrams he was talking....and i turned the tv off
A2:
We have now reached complete agreement. Talking heads have heads up ass.
I am reduced to not quoting Occam but Charlie Brown. Arrrgggghhhhh. LOL
Hahahaha...so happy to have found common ground!
Dan Abrams? I always thought of him as a Geraldo wannabe....And, geeez, Who the hell wants to be a second hand tabloid journalist like Geraldo?!
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 10:56 pm
Dan Abrams called the Duke lacrosse incident a hoax before anyone else had even bothered to question it.
So did I....Does that mean I know who murdered MK? Ummmm. I'm the first to admit it...nope.
Pinecone,
As I've said before here. I don't say that you're wrong. But I don't know that you are right either. I feel as though you made your decision a while back and spend your time picking and choosing evidence to support your conclusion. You may well be correct, that Rudy acted alone. However, I'm not there yet, and other than those directly involved, I don't believe anyone can say yet, who is responsible. I'm trying to keep an open mind, not trying to shoot you down.
And on that note, its Friday night afer a loooong work week. I'm headed out to think of other things for a bit. A luxury I wish the Kerchers had.
Has anybody given thought to the consideration that AK, RS, RG and RG's unknown friend (UF)got together for some drugging and partying and then the two buddies RG & UF went after MK while AK & RS diod their own thing in the kitchen and AK rooms until they heard screaming.
Then in fact what RG says happened to him, he was threatened to being responsible because he was black, was just the opposite...AK & RS were themselves terrorized and threatened as RG & UF quickly cleaned themselves up and fled, leaving AK & RS to ponder what to do, afraid to call authorities? We would definitely need evidence of UF in MK room or elsewhere besides a second person fleeing.
No, can't go there myself. After seeing Van Zaat on Dateline I am driven back to my first theory that AK & RS were in a conspiracy to cover their own complicity and made RG the fall guy. Van Zaat seemed to want to hint that AK held and plunged the knife. Back to my pre-med theory I guess.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 9:17 pm
"CW re McCann case & Portugal use of UK labs: YES -- and they didn't like what they heard and have apparently sent even more stuff for analysis because they do not have resources. And have sent stuff despite the former head of CSI-P coming out in the papers there and saying forthrightly that the apartment as a crime scene was totally compromised from before the police arrived, and they made matters worse. He called for national standards & training in US & UK crime scene techniques. (For instance, did not formally interview a key witness as to Gerry McCann's whereabouts until November and then had the Leisceter police do so. EGADS!)"
Thanks for the answer on the McCann vs Portugal case. Interesting. I suppose Portugal being the smallest EU country probably isn't update on the latest forensic techniques. But I would suppose that Italy is and doesn't need UK help. In fact Van Zaat (do I have his name correct) stated he was quite impressed with the ILE forensic processing. Being former FBI and credible and well known I think Dateline did a good job bringing him in for this coverage.
And on that note, its Friday night afer a loooong work week. I'm headed out to think of other things for a bit. A luxury I wish the Kerchers had.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 11:11 pm | #
Why don't you rub ashes on your head and wear a sackcloth dress?
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 10:15 pm
"All I know is that months & months later I received notice that I was going to be supoenaed [sp?] as part of the appeal. Local prosecutors got that withdrawn."
You were going to be subpoenaed to give a deposition about a poster on a blog thread?????? Did I read your comment correctly? Yes? Then please tell us more.
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 10:47 pm posted:
"He's still got his head up his ass, Robert M. He ended his worthless analysis of the case by saying investigators are hoping/expecting one of the three suspects to squeal on the other two."
For golly sakes, Pinecone. Isn't that what us amateur Van Zandt's have been hoping also?
For golly sakes, Pinecone. Isn't that what us amateur Van Zandt's have been hoping also?
coyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 11:42 pm |
Not me. You know who I think did it, all alone.
seattleite | 12.21.07 - 10:53 pm
"I was just watching Judge Perino with Baden on Fox...not really watching it but it is in the background and I hear GRUSOME NEWS FROM ITALY...and they go on to make twenty factually ludicrous statements (like did you know the murder took place at 8:30?) Heads up ass? Its a shame you can't convict talking heads of extreme blather."
LMAO, and media in the USA too? Puts my head in the sand!
You know there are people who believe everything they hear on TV? Most of those "experts" don't even bother to read up on a case before putting in their two cents worth, yet viewers think they're getting the real scoop.
The Dateline piece was one-sided, but the defense would have to be crazy to go public with anything at this point.
Pinecone:
I had to get "media trained" for something once and its all about the energy and the pace of the discussion--I know facts haven't factored since the vast wasteland speech...but there have been moments-- but this wasn't even good for low-rent fill-in TV. Another argument for the elimination of television.
Geez, Pinecone.
Lighten up. I'm hardly claiming sainthod or wearing a sackcloth. I'm headed out for a drink or two with friends.
I didn't swallow the Dateline piece whole. I'm just not ready to say I know the answer. Lighten Up...You seem pissed off with everyone. I didn't come here to fight. WTF?
Gnight
That I agree with Pinecone, what's good for the Italians in media coverage is good for the USAians from there own style of coverage.
Well think I'll follow annarbor. No not stalking her, just to go clear my head too. Maybe a glass of fine Cabernet. No! Tonights the night for a really great cognac.
Lighten Up...You seem pissed off with everyone.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 11:54 pm
LOL. I'm on the spectrum.
Delamain Vesper? Oh! You have Delamain Grande Champagne! One please.
Rudy did it ...end of story
I was just watching Judge Perino with Baden on Fox.. Heads up ass? Its a shame you can't convict talking heads of extreme blather.
seattleite | 12.21.07 - 10:53 pm | #
I’m going to give Perino and particularly Baden a one-time pass on this. They do remind me of fish out of the water on this case. On a prior show Pirino got her facts wrong (e.g. Knox text messaged somebody that Meredith is going to dye) , and Baden seemed equally confused on whose dna is on the knife.. The Mrs. watches these programs, and then I get to spend 10 min. reminding her not to believe everything on the teevee.
Despite all these shortcomings and misinformation. I believe they generate added attention to the public; and more focus and determination on the Italian police, and courts, to do what ever they can to resolve this case in a judicial manner.
From Dateline transcript, seeming to confirm Meredith's murder clothing was NOT washed.
"Richard Owen: It was described by the investigating judge as a chilling scene."
"There were finger marks on the jaw. A small knife puncture on the underside of the chin. Her torn and scattered jeans and underwear, and DNA recovered in the body, described the sexual torture of a woman being forced to her knees."
And this bit, which might explain what Rudy really did with that chair:
"Clint thought the DNA on her body and the location of blood spray from the wound supported the investigative theory that Meredith was being sexually attacked from behind, bent over [Rudy's chair?] or perhaps being forced to her knees.
Entire, mostly rehashed, transcript at
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240/
I love Dan Abrams, and I love Geraldo.
Kill me now.
Why don't you rub ashes on your head and wear a sackcloth dress?
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 11:30 pm | #
Ha! You are a sassy thing tonight, PC. and wildly impractical and illogical: you're describing Spring-ware.
was she stabbed through her throat to the back? skewered? i'm afraid to ask...
pc thanks--will read the transcript--missed the program.
ok-stabbed through from left to right.
whoa.
OT (mostly)
RobertM "And have sent stuff despite the former head of CSI-P coming out in the papers there and saying forthrightly that the apartment as a crime scene was totally compromised from before the police arrived, and they made matters worse."
The outrageous aspect of this was that local LE had already messed up an earlier case (missing girl, suspected murder victim Leonor Cipriano) in the same way. And in that case too, the mother was eventually accused and convicted - based on flimsy "evidence" (blood in the fridge, which the defense said could have been from a nosebleed [sound familiar?]) and a confession made under duress (more like quasi-torture) of another relative. So the failure of PLE to secure the Madeleine crime site and to immediately begin to rule out (or rule "in") the parents was "ludicrous" - to use a fashionable word.
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 11:30 pm "Why don't you rub ashes on your head and wear a sackcloth dress?"
You had me in stitches.
|
Interesting how Zach Nowak gets into the transcript, trashing RHG:
--- No, but he did have a reputation for being sort of the guy who bugged the girls. To the point where the girl would go to the bartender and say “Look, this guy is bugging me. Can you tell him to leave?” ---
I notice Nowak popping up too--AND I would be surprised if the writer had not read here too; not very aggressive research for the $$ investment they made. sort of a simple report aggregating other stuff. Not much original BUT they did get detail about the wound. Competent but relatively lazy. The just sort of went on the record as acknowledging the crime. That blog by the producer being so out of it at the airport busted the whole thing. The had no one who spoke Italian so Nowak helped out there too. I wonder if he volunteered. He was quoted a couple times before we read of his book. I think he promoted himself into it and is an idiot.
The friends panel thing--those kids are on press circuit too and vetted by Amanda's family. No one new comes forward to these guys. They have no/few contacts. No Italian journalist involved. That guy Owen at the Times just mimics back what he reads in the Italian papers. I'd rather have seen FRANK on the program. Wonder what they paid Patrick.