So, who do you think did it?
I was going to get a scarf for Mom with 10 of my points...30 points would have got Dad those gloves...and little brother...that swell train set....frankly I do not care where...
As no one else has picked up on this re-opened format, so simply useful but now contextually broken, I'd say that it was a fine but failed gesture on Steve's part, and I'm going back to the disqus site to make a declaration. See you all there.
Unless of course, THAT completely breaks down too and we all get back here out of desperation.
But maybe its just time for a complete change for me.
ROBERT! Use your influence and fine persuasion to bring everyone back here. 
INDIE people are apparently posting at another MK haloscan thread, but I can't figure out how to get to it. This what opens up for me when I access the main blog site and thenscroll down and click on comments. But this NOT where people are.
If someone would post that link here, i'd appreciate it. Otherwise I'm at disqus.
I would like to post this from the last know post. Sorry
I would expect RS's lawyers to say anything they feel in order to try and remove suspicion from their client. This crime was committed on Italian soil and just because we do not like their way of doing things vis-a-vis our own countries is tough luck. The fact of the matter is, that AK and RS are caught up in their own lies. He says that he was on his computer most of the night, from what is it, 9:00 pm until 1:00 pm. AK says that they ate at around 11:00 pm, and then watched a movie and what else, made exotic love. That is a conflict and everyone knows it. The Italian system does not allow for someone to obfuscate the truth and hide behind a lawyer at the present moment. And that should be respected. They are on their own sovereign soil and they can try this case the way they see fit. A young woman has been sexually assaulted, and brutally murdered. They have every right to do what they feel is necessary to bring the criminals to justice. I have stated before, this case will be tried on the forensic evidence and the strength of the suspects alibis or lack thereof. AK says she is innocent as does both RS and RG. Each of them will have their day in court to prove their innocence.
OK. I took INDIE's suggestion and posted PRETTY PLEASE,/b> requests at both the old Haloscan site and at the new Disqus site.
When I saw soozieUK going on about flipping back & forth between two sites, I decided something had to be DONE. So, let us complete the Mutiny by abandoning both leaking tubs and
START the Thread All-Over Again HERE
For some levity (???), while you wait for others to move links & repost, here's a Veddy English Crime Rest of the Story:
Civil engineer attacked lawyer wife with chainsaw in their living room http://tinyurl.com/2byw8n
Mind you, that wasn't the 1st time either, and to boot, she had been a Crown prosecutor. You'd think that would be a hint to him not to go all American Pyscho. You'll have to click to see how far Christian, forgiven love can take you. I still think that the judge, whatever years he imposes, will make it a life license (i.e permanent probation when he gets out). Thank god they have no children.
Must remember to preview!!!!!
seattlite.................to funny
RobertM,
You are working hard!
Thank you, RobertM. Too quiet at disqus.
hey RobertM..............can you ask Steve to put those arrows on this site,so we can point people?
lol I like it here....Thanks Steve!
bcpl,
This crime was committed on Italian soil and just because we do not like their way of doing things vis-a-vis our own countries is tough luck.
Is this comment in response to the statements complaining of the "grilling" of AK yesterday and the use of "heresay" evidence?
I agree with you, that the contradictions in stories should be exploited, and that forensic evidence is critical to deciding guilt or innocence. What worries me in regard to RS is that the shoeprint evidence has been allowed to degrade, and his lawyers are speculating that without it, the case against RS is weakened.
See chrischris's posting from earlier today:
AGI) - Perugia, Dec 18 - "All I can say is that the shoeprint isn't there anymore, I believe it was very latent, very faint and therefore not visible anymore" said Saverio Potenza, expert for Raffaele Sollecito, while leaving the house were Meredith Kercher was killed. This morning around noon another on-the-spot investigation is being carried out in the house, in the presence of experts and lawyers of the suspects. Lawyer Tiziano Tedeschi showed the investigators a knife, which was found near the house, and some handkerchiefs, apparently with blood stains (the investigators however don't consider these elements important, also in the light of the rain of the past days in Perugia), but now the expert claims that the lack of shoeprint could have an impact on the position of Raffaele Sollecito. To journalist asking questions about a possible pollution of the crime scene, Professor Potenza responds: "I don't think the print can be evaporated, this is all I can say". Still it has to be underlined that investigators explained that any type of print is moulded, which scientifically explains why the imprint doesn't stay visible.
Anonymous straighten that out, will you? because you obviously aren't.
OK start moving links from today's stories. For those who don't know how to use tinyurl, here is its web-site.
http://tinyurl.com/
Become familiar with it, as some of the stories will have nested upon nested listings.
For your entertainment:
I wish I could find the OTHER Veddy British Crime Story from likely early in 2006. The TIMES ran a series of very droll yet strict factual pieces. Summary: The retired physician wife confronted the husband's so-called mistress in her Oxbridge rooms with a smallish tea knife over her alienation of said husband's affections. It would have been a true farce if it wasn't a real felony assault in that the mistress's one eye socket got cut up very badly. The physician wife got close to 3 years and probation, the mistress was ambivalently saddened & was done with the husband, and the husband showed himself to be a total dithering fool, not understanding at all how his uncommunicative behavior had brought two women to near total ruin. I'd have decked him on the spot if I was his kid or the wife's relative.
It seems that he'd abandoned the marital bed a full decade before (wife aged 52 & a busy practice) and taken up with the professional who became his mistress on hopes of being able to sustain an erection. But as it soon became evident that he couldn't do that with her either, and he refused to see a regular MD over it all, he and mistress took to doing crossword puzzles over tea. Very cozy, new companion, no demands. The physician wife kept thinking he was having sex with the mistress & so her rejection level mounted and mounted, until she invited herself over to the Other Women's offices for tea and brought her own knife with her.
And so, a Good Woman, someone who's done more good in the world than I, is currently sitting in an HM prison doing who knows what over a crime that should never have happened but did, because she loved the fool her husband so much that she didn't want a divorce. Sheesh. I can only hope that the grown children are NOT talking to him. Total low-grade narcissist. The Times reporter let the husband hang himself with his own key words. A fine piece of reporting.
LADIES--> Divorce them, have your own affairs, just do not use knives, guns or rat poison, despite how much they deserve it. Ain't worth the blot on your good name, nor sucking down taxpayer's money that could go elsewhere.
And don't get me started on the Claire Barlow case. She's said they are going to have to kick her out of HM prison at 20 years--why she may even refuse to leave--given how angry she is at being railroaded in the early 1990s. (She'd be a prime candidate for a US Innocency Project legal case. Prime.)
Back to Who Killed Meredith.
Have a Happy & Healing Hiatus, Steve!
Thanks RobertM.
What do all the thinkers here make of the Amanda interview yesterday, where she refuses to comment on why she originally implicated PL? She has to have a concrete reason, and has not said what that is. I think when (if) we find out, it is significant. And also, when they have pinpointed the questions on how she described too many crime scene details that only are known by the murderer/accomplice, and she again refuses to speak . . . hmmm . . . well, lets give her another 30 or 60 or 90 days in the cold, damp prison. She will come around.
BubbaJaK
I suspect that AK is finally coming to grips with the magnitude of the death of Meredith Kercher. She has had ample time to reflect on her role. Many people here think the Italian Police are stupid and inept; they may be right in their suppositions, and I would dare say this might be the case with Police all over the world. However, the Italian Police are keeping her in prison for good reasons. Her alibi has serious flaws in it, based on her statements to them.
I also suspect, that when her trial is all said in done, that she will be dragged off, kicking, screaming, and yelling, "I am innocent!' I am basing this on her wonderful performance before the Magistrate yesterday. If she cannot convince the Magistrate of her claims of innocence, how is she going to convince others who will be adjudicating her case, when the time comes?
opps!
BubbaJaK
I suspect that AK is finally coming to grips with the magnitude of the death of Meredith Kercher. She has had ample time to reflect on her role. Many people here think the Italian Police are stupid and inept; they may be right in their suppositions, and I would dare say this might be the case with Police all over the world. However, the Italian Police are keeping her in prison for good reasons. Her alibi has serious flaws in it, based on her statements to them.
I also suspect, that when her trial is all said in done, that she will be dragged off, kicking, screaming, and yelling, "I am innocent!' I am basing this on her wonderful performance before the Magistrate yesterday. If she cannot convince the Magistrate of her claims of innocence, how is she going to convince others who will be adjudicating her case, when the time comes?
I am responsible for the anonymous posting up to this point. I apologize for not putting in my name; too many changes going on.
I think this is a very workable forum, the DisQus also was/is. I hope wherever the majority ends up, I can find them, because the info here can be found sometimes NO where else. I have leared very much about social aspects of Italy, their justice system, and the culture in general. In addition, info arrives here much earlier than the places that do print the details. Hnag in there, fellow crime-detail-seekers.
Oh wow!! This page loaded in a second!! What happened, and how and why are we here? I have been fighting with that new blog, my CPU went to 100% as soon as the page started loading - and then it would just freeze.
Does this mean we can continue as before, with this as the new page? Please say yes
---------------------
Well, if you mean what I personally think re her behavior yesterday?
Well, if she has confessed her actual role in this case to the priest chaplain, as I am sure he has offered to hear her confession [its both his job and what he does as an RCC priest], then the priest has advised her that the FALSE implication of Patrick is worse than murdering someone by accident becasuse she did it INTENTIONALLY. Accident is accident, but naming Patrick was INTENTIONAL. Intentionality puts her immortal soul in great danger, and persisting in the sinful behavior only deepens the penance required. No five Hail Marys on this one.
But for her to explain why she named Patrick brings her psychologically right up to the precipice of having to admit/confess to What Really Happened and her role in it. And she's is under no legal obligation to convict herself. Us USAers call it the Fifth Amendment, but it developed out of deep UK roots, and the principle is accepted within the EU. No wonder she's shaking & having fits. She knows precisely what she did and can not reconcile that Amanda with her other Amanda persona. This is why I keep going back to Jung and the Shadow as an explanation. But tis not an excuse, you are the Shadow as well as you are the Light [consciousness]. What the Shadow does through you is still you doing it. (See paragraph below starting xin.)
As to what she should do as a defendant, I'd say her lawyers are doing her no favors by letting her NOW say anything to the PM, who is acting as a defacto prosecutor/investigator in this situation. Invoke the 5th and let's get to the charging part, a real bail hearing and a real evidentiary hearing too. But Our Friends in the ILE in Perugia are booting evidence even as we type. They probably deserve a 95% score for doing the house, but never doing a deep search of the grounds????????????????? A Fat Zero on that one.
And look at the damn Portuguese LE having-HAVING-to turn to British forensics to have any hope of finding anything credible against the McCanns. Even the former head of their labs came out and said "I guess we should train all police forces inthe Brit & US methods; the crime scene at Parais is hopelessly contaminated."
xin Call the Alioto Woman! Amanda deserves SOME REAL ADULT to help her face up to this situation, and learn her how to take responsibility and then how to live with it. Yes, she deserves the chance to GROW UP, even if its the occasion of admitting to voluntary manslaughter and spending 10 years in prison. Her present Italian lawyers haven't got a clue, and her parents can't even get rooms at the inn in Perugia. Sheesh.
And where's Forensic Doc still reviewing your files. You know maybe should ask to be liaisoned from hinthint to Italy. I'm sure she can pick up Italian and YOU'D get a lot more material!!!!
I gotta split. Vaya con dios.
Speaking of inconsistencies in stories, in today's Repubblica, RS's dad tried to address one of them:
"So when Raffaele refers to the effect, refers to the evening in which it was at the home of Meredith and not vice versa; Raffaele when referring to the effect knows perfectly what he said Amanda, including that Meredith at home there ever been''.
When Raffaele refers to the evening (when he cooked dinner), he meant that it took place at Meredith's house, not the other way around. He knows perfectly well what Amanda said, referring to the fact that Meredith has never been to his house.
Combine this with the dissapearing shoe print and it seems that Team RS in full court press...
SOOZIE UK its all because of you that I've acted. Your plaint about the loading and the doubled windows to make this work was JUST TOO DAMN MUCH. A waste of our times. Its a hobby, a release from other issues, not supposed to be this much work.
Your welcome.
ann arbor,
Yep, now if only they can explain how he was at his computer, when the supposed records say he wasn't, why he did not answer his Father's telephone call and text message while he was surfing. And by the way, his lover AK saying she was with him that night, eating dinner at 11:00 pm, watching Amelie (He did say he watched Amelie) and having exotic sex. It is what you call, the old changeroo when the facts don't fit your story just try to explain them away. And is RS, who said at the beginning of this mess, that he never knew Meredith Kercher, now saying that he cooked dinner there after only knowing Ak for two weeks. AK herself said they spent every morning having sex in bed. I sure wish these two folks can get their stories straight one day.
They need Xin's timeline and notes!
Thank you RobertM, much appreciated. It was getting so bad that I didn't bother checking in for ages and consequently missed lots of relevant comments.
It was a shame because I feel so involved in this whole thing (like the rest of us), and didn't want to miss out on anything new.
And I am much happier with this page. Loads fast and I'm used to this format. Thanks again
-------------------------
ann arbor,
They have all that stuff. Two weeks ago, RS appeared before the Magistrate to give new evidence and all that he said was, "I have nothing more to say, can I finish my thesis in prison if you please?"
Yesterday, we observed the antics of one of the other suspects in the case attempting to plead her case; it ended in tears with the defendant refusing to answer any more questions. The Magistrate will not be fooled on this. They know a lot more about this case than all of us here. Nothing new about this case has come out with one exception.
Pinecone is dead on right about RG, I have to admit. His paws are all over the body of Meredith Kercher; the only question that remains is, why was he there that night and how did he get in. I believe a drug deal took place, others believe that it was a night of sex, could be both, who knows. Both AK and RS have these answers and that is why they are in prison today.
There are some really nice people here.
Sorry to be schmaltzy. And so smart.
we'll all feel better when we see damian, deepen, squiggle and other old friends pop in again.
OK. The new thread. I will pop in the timeline here for it to be handy, and to be revised.
Speaking of handy and revision, how convenient for RS's lawyers to say yesterday that the overgrown hill should be searched for the weapon, and then, today, VOILA, the weapon. OJ needs those guys on retainer.
frank atPerugia Shock calls them the smiling lawyers.
The Dr ForPsy is currently being protected by her auntie.
standy by for current (always in flux) timelines.
(last revised dec 13.07)
Timeline: November 1, 2007 (Friday) rev.3
1300 AK & MK at their apartment
1400-1500 MK left
1700 AK, RS went to his apartment (per AK)
1745 Polish student saw Knox & Sollecito at the Italian's house
1800 AK, RS left her apartment (per Rafe)
“He was with AK until 1800 when they had both left RS apartment to go into the centre, around
2030 to 2100 RS went home, smoked; had dinner
2030 AK text message from PL
2030 – 2100 (AK “left him [RS], saying to him that she would go to Le
Chic, meet friends while he returned to his house”) “… left the
house telling Sollecito that she was going to work, [but she], she was at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana.”
2038 RG arrives (acc to RG)
2038 PL cellphone pings in the area of MK’s house
2040 Polish student sees AK leave RS’s;
AK and RS were at RS's flat at this time and before.
2040 AK and RS cell phones turned off
2043 AK seen on CCTV entering her house
2046 Meredith arrives eight minutes after RG arrives (acc to RG)
2050 RS chops up button mushrooms with his knife, and he and AK stir
fry them.
2100 [[“It was [about] this time that either RS or AK turned off their
mobile phones, which [were on] again the following morning.” “All
three [includes PL] suspects have a gap in cell phone use for two hours around the time MK was raped and killed, according to the judge's order. PL changed his cell phone number the day after the murder.”]]
2100 AK claimed to meet PL at B-Ball courts and [return] to her house.
According to the judges, between
21.10 and 5.32 of the night of the crime "is not any human interaction.
@ RS apt
2100 MK leaves friend’s house to return home
2215 call made from MK's mobile to a service advising phone credit
balance
2229 First recorded receipts at Le Chic
2230 “Alessandra Formica, a police witness, said her partner was almost
knocked over by a black man running away from scene” (She is part
of the mystery couple/perhaps DNA, heel print in MKs room)
2300 RSs father called, no answer
2300-0100 RS claims he’s on Internet at his home
xin,
Thanks for you timeline!
and likewise, last update 12.13.07
ALL corrections and additions are apperciated.we want this to be as accurate as possible, allowing also for alibi info to be included for analysis.
November 2, 2007 (Saturday) rev.3
0100 AK at RS’s apt
0200 Passers-by report loud voices from AK/MK home
0532 Internet activity noted at RS’s computer
0830 Bleach receipt (supplied by the market)
0915 Bleach receipt (supplied by the market)
1000 (per RS) Woke up at RS’s in morning
1030 (per RS) AK returns to her house to wash; took empty plastic bag
1100 (per AK) she was back at her house
1130 (per RS) AK back at RS’s house; worried—door open
Back to AK’s together. AK opens door w/keys; went in together. Blood in bathroom.
((AK and RS buy newspaper (?)))
1135 MK's clothes are in the washer
1235 postal police arrive; hear washing machine cycling off.
RS talking to his sister when cops arrive
1251 RS calls112/cops
1254 RS calls police again
1300 AK/MK housemate Romanelli arrived
a bunch of kermit's collection of pics and graphics have been added to the blog,that can't be put up here.
to see, if you haven't got them yourself, email me ca94306@gmail.com for access.
xin,
Great job on the blog!!! It's looking good.
OT but during the Spector fiasco did you ever check out Kim's blog> The Darwin Exception. She did a wonderful and humerous job of recapping the daily trial events.
((Oh yeah. Kim's great. So funny. I need to put her link on.
It was a fiasco. I feel so bad for Louis, the nicest person, sat by him some during verdict watch. he really wanted "dad to get his." I'm trying to get my photos untangled at flickr to put up a slide show of sites related to the murder. Did you follow dyleski? NOW there is a maniac serial killer stopped in his tracks. The worst. Thanks for kind words.))
Also, it would be nice to get Kim interested in this case. After I get the Chris-nakkuah cards out, I'm going to send her a note.
If I were linking, I would link to a post yesterday on Disqus.
Anyway...Rudy killed Meredith, and giving up Amanda would only make the case against him more solid by providing a witness. Amanda can't tell on Rudy, though, because she IS guilty of something, and he is the witness to that. Likewise, she wouldn't dare try to bring Rafe into this, because he knows what she did; but he's scared to tell on her, because he's guilty of something too, that she knows about. Only by overcharging each one can the police hope they'll tell on each other, just to bring the charges down to what they actually did. Just a theory.
I think Rafe would be the weak link, because his punishment would be the least if he just told what he did (clean-up). That makes what he's doing seem particularly arrogant.
Here we are moving house again. The problem is that there are always some boxes that get lost on the way or that don't end up getting unpacked.
RobertM wanted some recent posts from the other site. Just in case some of you haven't seen today's Italian TV news there was a video of the return to the house. The external part is from today, including the mysterious new dull knife, found just where RS's lawyers said it would be. The internal part of the house is probably video from the initial visits.
This link is the whole lunchtime newsbroadcast. If you want to avoid the news items about meningitis, and other things, jump to the 6:00 minute mark (exactly) - or 13.04.00 on the timer/clock imbedded in the video - which is where the Perugia report starts.)
http://video.centrodiascolto.it/
..._125801_987.wmv
Also Loz and I were talking about knives.There's the sharp kitchen knife which was found at RS's place with AK's and the victim's DNA on it. This is a photo of it:
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net...?
e0cd4d9d2d.jpg
(As I said, you've all seen that, haven't you? Or have I been sitting on that?)
And there's the new kitchen knife found today
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net...?
ce51f19563.jpg
AND ... a slightly NEW improved version of the second POWERPOINT (ie, improved upon since yesterday). Some minor modifications to the animation (and corrections, the view is southwest, not south), but a better presentation.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ch9bvj1xkud
(Xin, do a swap please)
hurrah! a functioning forum again! thanks everyone for your comments and thanks to those involved getting this up and running once again on True Crime weblog,
beenHere if there's a post over at Disqus, best to copy it and post it here & then explain why you like it. By links, I mean replicating all the newspaper links that have beeb posted both at Disqus and at the Old Halo Thread such as annarbor's today 12/18 at 1:30pm est on The Daily Telegraph's Knife story:
http://tinyurl.com/2kd6kg
TESTS ON KINIFE FOUND NEAR MEREDITH'S HOUSE
Updated: 5:51pmGMT 18/12/2007
Italian police investigating the murder of British student Meredith Kercher are examining whether a knife, found today near the house where she was killed, could be the murder weapon. Police have now discovered two knives. The police have sent the small knife, which was non-serrated and with a rounded tip, for forensic testing in Rome.
It was discovered in the undergrowth in the valley behind the British student’s house.
The area had already been searched by the police, but sources close to the investigation said that the knife had been "deliberately hidden".
annarbor wrote: Looks as though they are considering that knife a possiblity...Again it makes me wonder about RS' lawyers being adamant a few weeks back about a new search of the "underbrush surrounding the house". Things seem to be going RS's way today.
That kind of link move.
thanks kermit! hurah. seems we can settle here for a while.
So does anyone know what the next step is? Rudy's had his 'chat'. Knox has had her 'chat and weep' and RS is still in the background. As they've all had their chance to 'speak', what now? Gathering more evidence etc?
On a side note, I see that in the 'changing stories' saga, Rudy has changed his version almost as much as Knox. Given all the blatant lying, they're doomed before they start! In my opinion, there are only ever 2 reasons for lying. . . 1) To avoid hurting someone's feelings, ie: "I love the present" or "Lime green looks great on you" - and 2) To wriggle out of the trouble you know you're in.
What other reasons are there? Also, if RS is honestly guilty of only bad judgement (believing Knox's version and agreeing to help with the clean up thinking she was innocent) - surely he'll still be found guilty of perverting the course of justice, covering up a murder etc etc? Would the sentence be lenient for an offence of that sort?
---------------------
Here's some more of KERMIT'S superb work on the old INTERNAL FLOOR PLAN FOR THE HOUSE:
Today at about 12:30 pm -->Loz, you asked for the old internal houseplan. It's here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?4fxx2y2g5h9
Keep in mind that Amanda seems to have no wardrobe. The bathrooms aren't necessarily furnished correctly. Kitchen needs to be pushed back a meter.
However, an hour later Kermit posted the following: "... I've just reviewed the video and AK DID have a wardrobe at the base of her bed (different orientation than what I put on the floorplan). Her guitar is resting between the wardrobe doors and the foot of the bed."
Authors! Please move over posts like kermit if you put such up. Posters: If you made a specific comment on such a post and you don't see it up, move it and replicate your post.
The scientifica inspection at Meredith's house is just over. I leave them chatting out of the house. After one month and a half from the crime a knife was found in the underbrush around the house.
And who found it? The police? No, one from the smiling team.
Of course, they are the ones who want the weapon of the crime to be not Raffaele's knife.
And indeed, as soon as they entered the gate the lawyer went to find the knife and some blood stained hankies. How lucky...
This is from Franks blog....updated today
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/ sorry here is the link
what effect would all these new things have on AK. The hearing, and the discovery of new forensics?
and the fact she may not be home for Christmas?
Will she be left reeling, or will it 'harden' her?
Guess she'll just do whatever her lawyer(s) say, and just rely on that.
and also, what did you mean when you said she needs that big-shot lawyer who can teach her to 'grow up' and rebuild herself or take responsibilty?
BeenHereAllAlong: "Only by overcharging each one can the police hope they'll tell on each other, just to bring the charges down to what they actually did. Just a theory." I am with you on your theory from your recent 6:11 post. I feel each of these 3 suspects have a part in the murder, without question. Guilty people would change there story frequently; Innocent people would have no reason to. WE may never know who did the fatal stab, the first slice may have been an accident with MK struggling to break free of someone. The most important thing here, MK is gone forever, and these 3 persons will be held in a cold damp Italian prison until the TRUTH is known, or 30 years is up. Maybe they never tell, and if they do not, then they are ALL equally guilty of murder.
Here's an Author transfer on WHAT KNIVES LOOK LIKE would look like.
LOZ wrote today the following with links:
the difference between a good fish knife like my gran would have used (ignore the handle quirks of these):
http://www.aurumandsun.com/
image...StainlessStee...
and butter knives: http://cookies.cookiesfromitaly....m/
silverfromi...
AK did mention a meal of fish at rafes house, his hand had blood on it She knows more than she should then, if it is a fish knife, she was there & was involved!
To me though it looks like neither. it's massive. and if it was like a big master fish knife why is i not all 'silver' the handle is black. To me it looks like a bread knife or something. Unless it's a cheapo specialist fish-cookers knife. like what people who like to cook all different kinds of fish may have?
Authored by LOZ today 12/18
robM lol, thanks. that was a bad post of mine!
CORRECTED LINKS for LOZ's KNIFE PICS. [Sorry about that. Things copy but not the underlying code.]
Fish knives:
http://www.aurumandsun.com/
image...Cutleryfish.jpg
Butter knife
http://
cookies.cookiesfromitaly....utter_knife.jpg
OT mccanns do hello mag: http://www.hellomagazine.com/magazine/
it's probably one of those things that looks worse and seems more inappropriate than it is?
REPLY to LOZ you asked me to explicate the following: what did you mean when you said she needs that big-shot lawyer who can teach her to 'grow up' and rebuild herself or take responsibilty?
Through ongoing interactions between themselves, their enivornments, their families, friends and events, etc., people develop their personality as they physically grow from babies to adulthood. There are any number of theories to explain how this personality (which to me includes character) happens. Here's the link for the Wikipedia article on Piaget who worked on on very young kids' developed:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Jean_Piaget
Another development psychology is that of Carl Jung :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung
That's the one I'm working off of, re Amanda. She is NOT an integrated personality. Her male side (animus) is much more developed than her female (anima) side. (Note: this has nothing to do with sexual orientation.) An integrated, or WHOLE, personality will have a BALANCED anima & animus, and also be able to display societally accepted behavior, even while disagreeing with some aspects of that culture.
For instance, I don't do drugs, mostly because it isn't me and also because I'm well aware of the legal penalties; even booze, I'm way down on. (Now, Double-stuffed Oreos. Oooooo, I really stay away from those.) BUT, I believe the so-called War on Drugs here in the USA is a joke, a total waste of taxpayers money. Marijuana is still, after 40+ years, among the Top Ten Cash Crops in California, yet there are people in that states' prisons who are there for 3 possession charge. The only people who have benefited are the DEA agents who have had full careers in the agency and retired with great government pensions, like a High School friend of mine. Sheesh.
continued
RobertM, Loz, I'm off now, 'nite.
reply to LOZ continued
Wikipedia links corrected:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Jean_Piaget
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jung
The most immediate way she can start to integrate her personalities towards wholeness is to directly confront what she knows and what she's done, and, with help, figure out how to make a meaningful restitution to society, which in this case really means to Mez's parents. Her parents, Kurt and Edda, being divorced for at least 15 years, have not been able to (1) model how to integrate herself, nor (2) made such growht explicate. Good grades & good goof smiles can get you a long way but alone they don't mean you are a WHOLE person [Amanda has a wonderfully plastic face; she could do great stand up taking on different character roles.].
But the Alioto woman, a strong person in her own right and yet a daughter of a strong personality, in addition to her own down-home Italian contacts, can model a forthright but responsible personality to Amanda, showing that intellect and character and yes looks can be part of a whole package. We are all made up of parts. Our personal goal, whether we are conscious of it or not, is to integrate aspects of our selves more & more into a whole. Why? Well, for one, so we don't get surprised when a part of us, without conscious thought usually, does something that makes the rest of ourselves go "Huh?" Going out and getting really smashed is not what I mean, though in that case its a generally acceptable to society behavior in which you deliberately let one of those other selves get to roam around. But what you do when you are smashed is still your responsibility. Amanda's parents don't have a clue about this. They don't get a lot even about adolescent women.
The Alioto woman, well-trained in the law & successful, sophisticated due to upbringing and travel, and empathic to others, is the kind of woman who's hand Amanda needs to hold. Its the next best thing to getting the kind of intense psychotherapy Amanda needs and get can't in prison. Also, it might just--JUST--get her out of this mess physically, though I believe its more a matter of what the Best American Lawyers call "damage control". You want to believe your client is innocent but you know he/she isn't and the client can't even admit it to themselves, "denial". Someone with authority, panache and empathy is the type of person Amanda needs to help her over into maturity. And that means facing up to the inner horror movie going on in permanently looped reals, the horro of having created the attack scenario that has played out so badly.
Today's find of the knife by RS' team exactly where they had said to look, the degraded shoeprint that is said by some will weaken the case against RS, his father publicly "clarifying" RS' misstatement today with re to MK being at his house...His defense is very well managed from a PR standpoint. I cannot help wonder if the fact that RS is an Italian from a wealthy and prominent family could help him elude being charged in this case. Is that a possibility, or a completely ridiculous notion? Any thoughts?
from THE DAILY TELEGRAPH of 12/18, companion story to its knife story:
Meredith Kercher suspect swears innocence
http://tinyurl.com/2xonj9
Very short sumamry of what's been posted as translations from the Italian papers. See my and Belle's translations at Disqus dated 12/17.
a2 - what all that can do, unless Amanda finally breaks, is give the Deciding Judges enough grounds to make an in effect Scottish Judgement, that is Not Proven, which would mean acquittal. To find him guilty on even the lesser of lesser charges, the circumstantial evidence has to be pretty pretty strong. And NOW, it isn't. Note that there are 5 judges on the panel of Deciding Judges. I don't think--and really would like too!--that a guilty verdict on lesser charges has to be all 5. I THINK a 3-2 vote will do. Someone from italy please correct me.
PERUGIA - Un piccolo coltello da cucina, di quelli in metallo senza seghetto e con la punta arrotondata, è stato trovato in alcune sterpaglie in una scarpata vicino al casolare dove il primo novembre è stata uccisa Mez Kercher. Il coltello, che dalle prime analisi non sembra compatibile con l'arma del delitto, è stato recuperato dagli uomini della polizia scientifica durante un sopralluogo nella casa del delitto. Oltre al coltello sono stati repertati due fazzoletti con delle macchie, forse di sangue. La segnalazione della presenza del coltello è arrivata da uno degli avvocati di Raffaele Sollecito.
Ah please ignore that last post. I hit the post button by accident. Translation of La Repubblica's last update to come.
Interesting, RobertM.
I'd not heard of "Scottish Judgement" before, but it is what I fear might happen. I know it is possible that RS is innocent, but the computer evidence indicates otherwise--as do several glaring inconsistencies in his rhetoric. As far as forensic evidence, the only other thing that I am aware of is the computer analysis for the night of the murder. And his team have their own "experts" that say it was in use...hmmmmm.
Ok, related to my last question, how strange is it that RS' lawyers requested that LE search again for the murder weapon in the underbrush around the house, and then actually found it themselves, right where they said it would be?
I'm not necessarily suggesting that it was planted, although that's a possibility. Could RS have known from the night of the murder that it was discarded there, with someone else's fingerprints, or DNA? In other words, that it would point to someone else, as AK's pointing out the s**t in the toilet pointed LE to RG?
Again, plausible or totally out in left field?
The area below the girl's house and (see Kermit's ppt) and the best "off the beaten path" path to where the phones were found would seem to be a natural search area. I never heard that an inyensive search was conducted there.
Middie had been asking about how the phones got there early on (car, walking off the streets to get back home?)
In the papers today they claimed they had seached there but the knife was hidden.
Pinecone they didn't even need to use a sniffy dog.
Ok, here are the original HaloScan comments threads.
Haloscan I postings dated from 11/06/07 to ~11/30/07 with a few trailing posts up through 12/07 can be found here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...193971/?
a=36428
HaloScan I is great for going back to find links to media reports, videos, and other evidence developments.
Haloscan II postings are dated from 11/26/07 - 12/18/07 (today). Steve started this second comments thread because HaloScan I became so large it took half the night to reload after each post. But remember HaloScan always takes you back to page top (no pagination) so you still get to do scroll happiness on Haloscan. Here is the link to HaloScan II.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...66135668042897/
and of course this is the URL link you are reading right now, call it Haloscan III if you will.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...73531507317890/
HaloScan III loads fast because it is new and not a very big file. As each post increments the file size the refresh/reload will take longer, so do not delude yourself that it is faster than say disqus.
True Crime Weblog disqus format can be found here.
http://truecrimeweblog.disqus.co...redith_kercher/
Posters are going to gravitate to the forum thread Haloscan III or Disqus to which they are most comfortable. That is to be expected, but I cannot fault the owner for trying a more powerful, with user options, comments-thread software. The software was not broken as many of us assumed at first, but it did have a steep learning curve and did need some preferred, by posters here, enhancements. The real objections came from many posters who obviously find it uncomfortable and challenging to adopt to sudden change and that is understandable, especially when a thread this size (many posters, high profile crime and international implications and interest) is under way over several weeks.
So while we now need, necessarily, to adapt to two threads I am just going with the flow, spend more time reading, much less posting. My contribution to holding down the hubris I suppose, which I find very high here, a function of the quantity of posters not the quality of posters here.
PS: For many here there are codes (acronyms) used to shorten the typing. Really no different than the usual lol, lmao, wtf, imho, imo. Do not be afraid to ask what shortcuts/code mean, allow yourself to learn. E.g., When you see the code OT at the beginning of a post it means Off Topic. The poster is telling other posters that she/he is posting to another[s] posters on a personal or asides post that is not relevant to the threads topic. I just wanted those who do not understand OT or notice it, to understand it and not criticize the poster that they cannot understand what she/he is saying. With the OT code it means skip this post if you want it is not on subject.
Likewise all can cut down on the hubris by labeling there posts as OT, if in fact it is. All should be able to post their thoughts and make friends and post personal asides, without criticism, because such posts are not hubris at all. But criticizing others posts (as contrasted to challenging ideas, theories, and sharing information which are the heart of a crime blog), on topic or off is hubris. I should know because even I have contributed hubris at times, try to recognize it, and try to always apologize.
Look forward to reading all your posts, here and there *lol*, where ever they land. I am just going to go with the flow and let threads self actualize. (Voting didn't work, a bad idea by me creating hubris. My apologies).
Bless you cw...I take back every bad thought I have ever had about you.
Imiginary smiley face.
Pinecone they didn't even need to use a sniffy dog.
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 9:38 pm
All their dogs are busy sniffing for truffles, I guess.
There's still bloody evidence out there somewhere under the snow. I doubt today's knife is the weapon, but it is something that should have been found before the cops even thought about confiscating knives from RS's kitchen. From which, we now know, they did not find the murder weapon.
a2: "how strange is it that RS' lawyers requested that LE search again for the murder weapon in the underbrush around the house, and then actually found it themselves, right where they said it would be?"
-----------------
Exactly - how convenient that his lawyers were whining that the police hadn't searched in a 'specific' area - and then hey presto, knife found?
Makes me think RS knew what happened AFTER the event, and now he's desperate to point out clues that might absolve him (especially as he must know his fingerprints won't be on the weapon). Therefore he's still a scumbag who tried to cover up a murder. Meanwhile, the Kercher's have to spend Christmas still not knowing exactly what happened to Meredith, or who attacked and killed her. I'm sure their Christmas will be a million times more painful than anything the suspects will have to endure. At least the gruesome threesome didn't lose a precious member of their family in a horrific drawn-out murder.
--------------------------
I see the huddled masses are still wanting a lynching of the privileged accused.
I'm not huddled. Are you huddled, Soozie UK?
It's your choice. Huddled masses or wretched refuse.
Pinecone, I just don't know who did what at this point. I know that you are 100% cetain of your theory, and when I get to 100% cetainty, I'll stop asking questions,too.
Geeez, certain and testy, too!
Reposting from disqus yesterday. Seems others are here are now asking similar questions about what next in this investigation and where it is going.
coyotewaits —Yesterday 08:02 PM
Loz —Today 03:21 PM
"yes, I think she'll get away with her crime. RHG, what is he getting out of protecting her though? He could well land her in it. He's already admitted to being there.
ah, maybe she is innocent after all."
This always bothered me also Loz. Given in the back of my mind I have never been able to quite shake off as you say, that someway, somehow AK and RS were involved.
But as you say, with all the evidence they have on RG (and his lawyers have to know it and perhaps more) why is he not naming AK and/or AK & RS. It's baffling. The only thing I have been able to shake loose from my feeble neurons is that he isn't naming them because 1) they really weren't there "when he was" or 2) if he outs them, he knows they will just out him back and say together (2 against 1) yes, RG killed MK while we were smokin' and lovin' in another room.
If number 2) is close to the truth it explains why the three of them maintain a conspiracy to not tattle on one-another. They have everything to lose and certainly nothing to gain.
Rhonda —Yesterday 09:37 PM
"If number 2) is close to the truth it explains why the three of them maintain a conspiracy to not tattle on one-another. They have everything to lose and certainly nothing to gain."
I think we have a B-I-N-G-O here folks......of course just my opinion.
RobertM —Yesterday 10:05 PM
That conclusion is MORE TRUE for AK & Rafe then it is for Rudy. In fact, I fail to see how its in Rudy's best interests NOT to directly implicate them. After all, as Piecone can now glory in, the real, HARD, evidence, both physical and DNA is ALL Rudy's --SO FAR, of course. As his lawyer, i'd looking at him and saying, you got to come up with more than that, I've got bupkis to work with here. And the trial will be a bench or judges' trial, utlizing a much more wide ranging standard of evidence than could possibly be seen in the US & UK. As seattleite points out, part of the rationale for keeping Amanda in prison is her statements to Meredith's friends & police on Sat., & Sun. [Plus of course ILE went out and got WIRE-TAPPING warrants right away.] In the US, whether any of that or NONE OF IT would be admitted to trial is dealt with in preliminary hearings. Much of what has leaked would fall under the NOT ADMIT category.
So, given that there's hard evidence and broader circumstantial evidence, why Rudy is holding back from naming Rafe and/or Amanda is a real "yellow" here.
coyotewaits —Today 02:56 AM with 1 point
This reply is to parent post http://
truecrimeweblog.disqus.co...open_thread_t...
and RobertM's reply to the Rhonda post following it at
http://
truecrimeweblog.disqus.co...open_thread_t...
in thread view only.
Robert concluded his post asking "So, given that there's hard evidence and broader circumstantial evidence, why Rudy is holding back from naming Rafe and/or Amanda is a real "yellow" here?"
I have asked this same question over and over. My only logical answer needs help from our friends in Italy, (fran, belle, middie, damien pls cmebck). But this is my thought. In this stage of the Italian CCP process it is still only the equivalent of the interrogation/interview process of POI (persons of interest) in USA CCP. Until an arrest and formal charges and indictment is imminent there is no plea deals offered to just POI in the USA (in Italy they already call them suspects and can detain them). So if we are in a sort of complementary stage of the investigation in Perugia, it is that ILE are trying to gather more evidence, especially against AK and RS but without tipping their hand as to what they have. By getting each suspect to talk in interrogations they just hope to learn more a piece at a time and to break down more and more each suspects story. (e.g., just why is it reported they are going back to the HOH and look at a foot print (the heel or the trainer sole?) or something else. Because they have gleamed something in these interviews that a re-forensic examination might uncover new hard evidence.
Thus they are not tipping their hand with offers of leniency to the one suspect they have dead to rights for a M1 charge. When they finally have got all they think necessary to pull the plug and issue arrest warrants with charges, then they will top off their case with "here's the deal Mr Rudy, tell us all you really do know and we can offer you............!". By that time they will think fairly confidently that they can take down the other[s] with their forensic evidence even if Rudy fucks up his testimony of truth (the deal) in the trial from the defense attacks. So then the judges and jurors will be swayed by the whole story the LE has put together, not just some story by a known petty drug criminal of Afro ethnicity.
This is why I feel it is going to be a long time before this case goes to arrests with a scheduled trial date. PS: I also do not think RG has told his lawyer any more truth than he has the investigators. I don't know about RS and AK in that latter regard and have no opinion or guess. Coyotewaits has to wait again and again. Dang it!!!
Your questions didn't offend me. a2
And I hope that the people that lean on the police (whoever they are)and the victim's family and the people of Perugia will stop suspending dibelief and ask why the police would come out just days after the crime and say "we have so much forensic evidence we will solve this quickly"; "case closed"; "extreme sex crime"; "extreme rent theft".
They did catch the murderer fairly quickly though the collateral damage has been expensive, painful, and it seems unending.
I have no doubt if they had anything solid on RS or AK they would be crowing to the skies about it.
I haven't said one discouraging word about the police but the time has come for them to do their job and STFU.
I'm not 100% sure of anything. I like to keep an open mind. I can only comment as and when 'facts' come out. Then I'll change my mind yet again depending on what's 'new'.
We are all speculating, that's all we can do until more comes out. Nothing is set in stone and to stick to only one theory doesn't leave much room for further discussion. I change my theory frequently, especially when yet another piece of 'solid' evidence is disproved!
----------------------
No, I understand that, Pinecone. And to be honest, a lot of your postings have made me rethink some issues. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
I just don't know yet, and this situation seems odd. I don't want to lynch anyone. Just thinking things through.
I haven't said one discouraging word about the police but the time has come for them to do their job and STFU.
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 10:08 pm |
Yeah. Especially that Mignini clown.
Repost from disqus:
muddy —Today 05:07 AM
Interesting stuff in the Times today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol...ews/world/
eur...
She said "Mez" - Ms Kercher's nickname - had never been at Mr Sollecito's flat, where the knife was found. Il Messaggero said she appeared unaware that Mr Sollecito has claimed that he, Ms Knox and Ms Kercher had cooked together in the kitchen of his flat.
Mr Mignini reminded Ms Knox that when first questioned at Perugia police station as a witness the day Ms Kercher's body was discovered, she had told other witnesses she had seen Ms Kercher lying next to the wardrobe with a wound to her throat which had cause her to die "in slow agony". She had given a similar description of the scene to Marco Zaroli, the boyfriend of Filomena Romanelli, one of two Italian female students who shared the cottage with Ms Knox and Ms Kercher.
Although Ms Kercher's body was found on other side of the bed, police forensic scientists have concluded that it was dragged there, and that she was in fact murdered in front of the wardrobe by having her throat slit while on her knees. Asked how she could have known this if she was not there, Ms Knox began to cry and refused to reply.
------------------------
Can we trust that this is fact or is conjecture OR leaked false description? Myself, I would be very circumspect of this item as fact (I have my reasons that she was stabbed where she was found and was on her back, about no blood on her legs, etc. see another post I previously made).
In other words, maybe the leaked info on the position of MK when she was stabbed actually came from AK statements and not from empirical evidence gathered at the crime scene. So the way this got leaked was who ever in the police interview rooms that was privy to the interviews and leaked info to the press heard or reported this way.
Friends said (hearsay) Amanda said MK was killed in front of the wardrobe (she didn't say MK was on her knees). The room is so small that as she lay on the floor adjacent to he bed, her feet are closest to the wardrobe. (See death scene photographs). LE confronts AK in her interviews about her saying this to the friends and asks: Why did you describe MK's body as being in front of the wardrobe, when you clearly saw her next to the bed when we broke the door down and you were there?
Duh? Weak question. AK got one glance into the room, police blocked her from entering (cs) and RS pulls her out. My opinion remains; LE is fishing to uphold their own theory on circumstantial evidence only and trying to entrap both AK and RS into more contradictions. It is classical investigation techniques being used when LE's have weak forensic evidence on a suspect. That is also why I discount her PL story. It was under extreme interrogation stress where hundreds of innocent people confess; believe me they do (endless documentation).
This is one of the reasons why in USA the supreme court has defined the Miranda rights (Miranda vs. USDJ, some year in the 1960s) which I am sure Italy does not have. Miranda basically says LE must clearly state and document to a suspect that they have informed suspect of the right to remain silent, the right to a speak with a lawyer before any questioning, etc. etc.) Yet USA LE still often skip around this all the time, not caring that the information they gather under duress will not be allowed in court. Why not care. Because they want information to gather witnesses and solid forensic evidence that only the suspect (if the right suspect) could know, leading them to more critical data on the crime.
Sorry, correction for the Times URL link. Muddy had it correct. I corrupted it when I copied the post.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3067558.ece
I haven't said one discouraging word about the police but the time has come for them to do their job and STFU.
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 10:08 pm |
And then we would bitch about not getting any information,,,aaawww such a lose lose situation...notice "situation" ....gotta love that Amanda.
From the Times in quotes, my comments between quoted paragraphs.
"Mr Mignini reminded Ms Knox that when first questioned at Perugia police station as a witness the day Ms Kercher's body was discovered, she had told other witnesses she had seen Ms Kercher lying next to the wardrobe with a wound to her throat which had cause her to die "in slow agony". She had given a similar description of the scene to Marco Zaroli, the boyfriend of Filomena Romanelli, one of two Italian female students who shared the cottage with Ms Knox and Ms Kercher."
Does the LE have a recording of AK making these statements about seeing...lying next to wardrobe (not kneeling).....with wound to her throat? Otherwise hearsay. The friends could be adding the wound to the throat because by the time of their interviews over the 2nd - 4th the throat wound was common public knowledge.
"Although Ms Kercher's body was found on other side of the bed, police forensic scientists have concluded that it was dragged there, and that she was in fact murdered in front of the wardrobe by having her throat slit while on her knees. Asked how she could have known this if she was not there, Ms Knox began to cry and refused to reply."
Bad Times reporting. The body was not found on the "other side" (what ever that means) because one side of the bed was adjacent to the wall. (See crime scene photos). The body was found adjacent to the bed with her feet at the wardrobe end and her head toward the wall with bed nightstand or other small table end. Please forensic scientists, please leak the exact empirical evidence she was on her knees? Direction of knife wound? Knee prints on the floor? Hand prints on the face?
"She appeared similarly "confused" when confronted with the testimony of Robyn Butterworth, one of Ms Kercher's fellow British students at Perugia, who said that at the police station Ms Knox had appeared "strangely unmoved" by Ms Kercher's death and "proud" of having "found" the body. Her lawyer said Ms Knox had "exercised her right not to speak" for the rest of the interrogation."
So what? Everyone here on this blog has speculated that this is rather guilty looking behavior. Is it? I could likewise conjecture that it is shock response and a basic need calling out for attention and comfort and that no one was providing her any because they too were in complete shock and RS was separated from her because LE first suspect them while still at the CS on the 2nd. When LE suspects multiple POI the absolutely first technique is to separate them for interviews. A vital necessity.
"Police believe Ms Knox accused Mr Lumumba to cover up for Mr Guede, the third suspect in the case, whose bloody fingerprints were on Ms Kercher's pillow and who has admitted being at the cottage during the murder while denying he committed it himself. Sources close to the investigation said it was striking that Ms Knox never mentioned Mr Guede at all, "as if he did not exist", when in fact they knew each other and had exchanged mobile phone calls before and after the killing."
Already commented on this; disassociation under stress and duress can cause one to create fantastical ideas.
"Corriere della Sera reported that Edda Mellas, Ms Knox's mother, and her former husband Kurt, Ms Knox's father, were having problems finding rented accommodation in Perugia because "no-one wants to rent to anyone linked to the Meredith Kercher case". Ms Knox's parents, who have vowed to stay near their daughter until the case is resolved, are at present lodged in the village of Mantignana, near Lake Trasimeno, 15km from the town."
Well if this is accurate and it probably is, we at least know that AK's parents are still at hand and supporting her.
Friendly town Perugia is, nonetheless. Of course, I can't blame ordinary sorts of people, having been overwhelmed with Italian video, TV and print coverage which characterizes RS and AK as psycho lover/killers in a soap opera drama, as to already drawing their own conclusions.
Fair trial? Not in Perugia, or Italy that's for sure. But then some poster here earlier tonight did point out that AK & RS had to prove their innocence?
Really? Is that the system in Italy. You're guilty until you prove your innocence. A European Union country? I didn't think so. Please correct me our Italian posters.
Rhonda:
No...I would like to see documents...and the demonization of Amanda has been a big part of the problem. Hey, if she is guilty-hang her high--I couldn't care less--but as the whipping girl for the police and prosecutors it looks at least as of now--she is more of a distraction to resolution than resolution itself.
"she is more of a distraction to resolution than resolution itself."
seattleite | 12.18.07 - 11:59 pm | #
That's for sure...sorry have to laugh on that one....
so that makes her guilty of what??? being a distraction??? Awww youth..
Oh, forgot to note.
"Sources close to the investigation said it was striking that Ms Knox never mentioned Mr Guede at all, "as if he did not exist", when in fact they knew each other and had exchanged mobile phone calls before and after the killing."
This seems to be our first re-affirmation that there were cell phone calls between RG and AK before and after the killing. IMO this would only be confirming cell phone call access, from cell phone vendor records that their respective numbers were called. Thus they did know each other numbers, implies they had some previous contact. I've always throught this and RG already confirmed it. I think RG was RS and AK's drug source. There could be call records between RS and RG. It's what we don't know that makes it all the more puzzling as to the roles of AK and RS.
However, we do not know the circumstances that AK has never mentioned (voluntarily?)RG. This again is very bad reporting from the times and or the "a source close to". I mean, really? What a reported statement. What do you mean Times reporter? What did the source mean? Was she asked the question or not? Or did she just not come out and tell, oh and by the way I know Rudy, he sold RS and me, hashish.
Gawd, how can we make any sense out of your reporting?
Rhonda:"so that makes her guilty of what???"
I don't know. I was hoping the police and prosecutors would know after 40 some days of intense investigation.
Them damn cell phones will get'em every time....let's remember...we do not know all ....though there has been many leaks ( true or false) in all of our various countries...never is "everything" leaked....we may think so but it isn't true. Be patient my dear coyote... I have faith they know more then we do....and with so much public scrutiny, I hope they hold it close.
s'ite: as usual you bring up excellent points, and i could join you in commenting on the demonization of amanda, and it is true. the word amanda means one thing in Italy, she's to suspicion as cher is to music.
but taking a look at the another way this discussion could go: amanda is a demon. she is the absolute central link in a complex crime. she refuses to tell the truth as she knows it. she is acting like a baby doll in trouble with papa. she is callous and unemotional when it comes to the victimzation of a peer in an environment where trust is pre-supposed. she is not just denying involvement, lying, and shirking her responsibility to do the right thing, she continues to abuse the victims love ones with her superficial drama and she has created her own legacy of self-indulgent shamefulness. as far as i'm concerned: she continues to murder meredith.
(AND: someone OBVIOUSLY planted the knife.)
Can Meredith's parents request assistance from Scotland Yard via proper diplomatic channels?
I agree, Rhonda, they know much more, and they only need to reveal enough to keep their asses in the prison huts. Every night is a little colder in there. And Christmas will be NO FUN AT ALL, andtalk about a fucked up way to start the new year...well, there ya have it.
She needs some cashmere leggings and sox.
It could be that we about to see a change of tack from RS, it was him who hid the new knife as part of the clean up and his lawyers were informed.
Maybe.
Xin: Good points...you have been around the courtroom and you know that the "atmosphere" of public opinion is important (even the deciding factor" in cases.
But with one very, very, very good suspect with literal blood on his hands garners very little attention on this blog and the newspapers (the Google search average on this case has gone from 1100-1500 news stories to about 100 stories since his return to Italy--think the entire international press has lost interest...nah it's just Rudy does not give the opportunity for saliciousness, misogeny and xenophobia as Amanda.
Repost from disqus:
Kermit —Today 09:02 AM with 2 points
Hey everyone! An inspection has been going on in Via della Pergola today (maybe it's still on).
A knife has been found in the bushes, but it's a dull, round kitchen knife which probably has nothing to do with the crime (item "D" in the video below). Also, outside, additional blood stained hankerchiefs / tissues have been found (item "C"). Also, there is video of the inside of the house.
I have to update the first houseplan. The photo of Amanda's room in the first PPT is Amanda's room, but clearly empty (it was strange for me that there are no books, etc.).
In the video, you can clearly see her things, her guitar, etc.
http://news.centrodiascolto.it/v...05/d=2007-12-
18
Strange she seems to have no wardrobe / closet. Also detail of the small bathroom. There IS a bidet.
-----------------------------------
Loz —Today 10:56 AM with 2 points
but kermit, in your ppt floor plan of the crime scene (2 ppts ago) you showed where the wardrobe was. and actually, I think it was beside the door but it wasn't clear. In fact MKs body was by the bed/wardrobe in its final position. but not in the position AK described?
look at the vid agan, the wardrobe has white/painted white doors, near the radiator. to me, don't know though it looks to be in the diagonally opposite corner to the bed. I will check your ppt to see how it compares.oh crud I deleted it. please have you got it again? sorry kermit 
it doesn't look much like a butter knife to me.
thanks for the video it's great.
Unlike the CCTV, it's defo not a reconstruction of what the forensic officers found?
I don't wanna get into another ski-mask/car bumper fiasco!
---------------------------
coyotewaits —3 seconds ago
One thing I note is that it sure doesn't look like AK's bedroom is cleaned up. I mean how can you bleach every where when there are books and papers all over the desk and clothes all over the bed and floor. This story about a bleach clean up of AK's room is BS. There might not have been any prints there but it wasn't cleaned up.. No prints = she hardly spent any time there in the past two weeks.
Second: Loz, keen eye. The wardrobe is in the opposite corner from the bed corner. The bed is adjacent (in the corner) to two walls, the long side of the bed to the wall with the radiator below the window. Adjacent to the wall space to the left of the radiator and window is one side of wardrobe which back is to the opposite wall from the head of the bed.
Thus when found on the floor covered by the duvet, her head would had been towards towards the night stand adjacent to the head of the bed (not shown) and her feet would have been towards the radiator/window direction with the wardrobe just to the left of her feet. Her right side would have been parallel to the open side of the bed. An easy position if she was on her knees facing the radiator to drag her backwards after a knife blow and drop her upper torso and head to the floor after only two to three feet of dragging.
I'm thinking forensic LE may have observed blood flow on the floor from in front of the wardrobe to the spot where her head & neck was dropped to the floor. Or she might herself tried to crawl back, I wouldn't speculate. But this makes sense if in fact she was killed in front of the wardrobe and then moved.
The question is, what is the blood pattern evidence. Again we don't know and police haven't told. Why. They don't want her lawyers to know so they can advise her interview answers to questions about her talking about MK being found next to the wardrobe.
But with one very, very, very good suspect with literal blood on his hands garners very little attention on this blog and the newspapers (the Google search average on this case has gone from 1100-1500 news stories to about 100 stories since his return to Italy--think the entire international press has lost interest...nah it's just Rudy does not give the opportunity for saliciousness, misogeny and xenophobia as Amanda.
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 12:51 am
***
That is exactly what burns me up when I read someone calling RS a scumbag, and they've never heaped insults on the killer, Rudy. There seems to be an agenda other than finding out who committed the crime.
Are people so trusting of media reports that they become convinced of a person's guilt in the absence of real evidence? Has the world dumbed down that much?
Also, ace in the hole. I think the cops and judges are getting their palms greased for "informed sources" statements.
One additional note. Remember how so many people mentioned the covering of the body by a duvet was an act of contrition and regret. (Others observed it could be, if there was a cleanup, that it was so they didn't have to look at her body. They could have just closed the damn door.)
But here's another thought. I recall they said her head was resting on a pillow that had RG's bloody hand and finger print on it. Ah ha! If she was killed on her knees facing the radiator and dragged back to beside the bed, how did the pillow get there under her head. "Well it just happened to be lying there". No it didn't it was placed there by a person who had very bloody hands. An act of contrition?
Or was it a fact that her head wasn't on the pillow. That the pillow was just in the room somewhere? Help please?
A truly great and instructive movie.
coyotewaits begins to trust the LE again that it "is" doing its job the way LE is supposed to handle suspects. As in UK, USA, so as in Italy.
I am obviously beginning to appreciate what I left behind three days ago, HaloScan. I am a fast learner of new software apps, online or not.
Obviously because I am moving posts from disqus to HaloScan not vice-versa.
Naw! That's not the reason cw. Admit it. It's because your favorite posters are over here.
coyotewaits begins to trust the LE again that it "is" doing its job the way LE is supposed to handle suspects. As in UK, USA, so as in Italy.
coyotewaits | 12.19.07 - 1:17 am | #
Do I misunderstand you? Are you saying the USA would treat suspects the same way the Italians are treating AK and RS?
from disqus earlier today. Just so the historical record is republished here for quicker reference.
Kermit —Today 09:30 AM
Okay, whoever out there has felt the local ILE didn't do a good investigation, I'm ready to pay my dues and join you. THERE's SNOW ON THE GROUND! The crime occurred a month and a half ago and now they're finding more blood stained hankies???!!!! It's frustrating, indeed.
Now, the little conspiracy theorist on my shoulder jumps out and asks, "why did RS's lawyers suggest a couple of weeks ago to go back to the underbrush under the cottage, to find "the real murder weapon"."
If knife "D" was there all along (even if it turns out to have nothing to do with the crime), some inspector should be fired.
------------------------------------
annarbor —Today 09:42 AM
Kermit, I wondered the same thing about RS' lawyers--they seemed so specific about looking at the underbrush around the house. At the time it seemed crazy, because I was sure that the grounds had been scoured for evidence immediately after the crime. Ha!
You have to wonder if this could aid the defense. They can say that much of the evidence collecting was bungled and cannot be considered reliable...
-----------------------------
Loz —Today 11:16 AM
You have to wonder if this could aid the defense. They can say that much of the evidence collecting was bungled and cannot be considered reliable...
unfortunately maybe. BUT if the forensics they took / they did take at the time were sound?
Also, I had been following the mccann case and that brought up some interesting questions regarding the mccanns possibly disregarding forensics that are acceptible in the fresh Leslie Molseed & S.Lawrence case. well that's to do with dna i guess.
But all I am saying, is that yeah it's good to get to a crime scene fast. but what about forensics years after?
------------------------------------
Loz —Today 11:10 AM
I disagree. on CSI they frequently do 2nd sweeps. fresh eyes. and also, in light of new information.
so, I disagree.
Do I misunderstand you? Are you saying the USA would treat suspects the same way the Italians are treating AK and RS?
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:21 am
By all means, they do in cases like this. They just don't allow leaks to the press so you never hear about it. Until of course something like DNA evidence later exonerates the suspects that have been found guilty and haul off to the state prison; then you find out when the civil lawsuits fly and cities and counties start paying up Millions $ to former convicted defendants with tax payers money.
OT)) You should google the Chicago Commander Burge cases in the 80's lawsuits going on right now, or the current band of brothers off duty and on duty cops in Chicago shaking down suspects for their drug money etc., or just beating up innocent persons in bars because they are drunk cops.
Mayor Daly was on such a hot seat, he was States Attorney when Burge and his detectives did their deeds and complaints were filed at Daly's DA office and nothing done.
So just last week Daly announced his new Police Superintendent. First time in four decades it wasn't someone who came up through the ranks of the troop. It was a white, whistle clean FBI Agent in Charge from Philadelphia named Weis, 49 years old.
Yup, same ole techniques. Maybe not as rough in UK and Italy as in USA. :-(
Dickie Daly (son of Mayor for Life and current Mayor For Life)"corrupt" say it ain't so CW.
Imaginary Smiley Face
I grew up in Chicago.
Or was it a fact that her head wasn't on the pillow. That the pillow was just in the room somewhere? Help please?
coyotewaits | 12.19.07 - 1:16 am | #
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11...k-
germania.html
Google translation:
In the house of the police scientific crime has identified the imprint of a bloody hand of Guede, on the pillow next to the body of Meredith. Traces of his DNA were later found on a vaginal swab performed during the autopsy of the student.
I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them.
Hey we're back to easy discussion.
Pinecone said: That is exactly what burns me up when I read someone calling RS a scumbag, and they've never heaped insults on the killer, Rudy. There seems to be an agenda other than finding out who committed the crime. Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:12 am |
Pinecone, I believe I'm the one who used that expression, but at no time directed towards a specific person.
On the last Haloscan blog (before Disqus) I said: "Let us hope that justice will be done and - while respecting the rights of the accused - that whoever the scumbags are who participated in each criminal segment of the terrible evening of Nov. 1, (and possible post-murder criminal segments, i.e. cover-up), that they respond for their crimes."
Kermit | 12.11.07 - 2:31 am |
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...66135668042897/
I stand by that. It may be one person. It may be various. It may be one or more persons involved in each crime. But, especially while the coverup of each crime is perpetuated (because any "accidental" crime is now being covered up in a very conscious way), yes I think whoever is responsible is a ... scumbag.
That doesn't mean that as a suspect, society (both Italian, European in general, and the "Anglo-saxon" world) should afford each suspect the right to not incriminate themselves. That's a great right.
But what I think as a citizen is that there are scumbags out there who aren't easing the suffering of Meredith's family, and who did nothing to avoid or ease her suffering.
Kermit,
It was not your general comment. It was someone who called RS a scumbag, as if they know that to be true. The only known scumbag is Rudy.
Pinecone:
"only known scumbag" is so literary...you are not Ann Rule are you?
Double Imaginary Smiley Face(s)
Morning (Europe) news roundup:
http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?....pic1?
ID=228601
Referring to AK's interview last Tuesday: "The investigators had listened to her on Tuesday to clarify her movements the evening of the crime. The American girl had said that she was at the home of her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, reading a Harry Potter book in German, that she smoked a joint and then made love with him. But investigators did not believe her and yesterday were more than seven hours in the house where Meredith Kercher was killed to verify details of the new story, looking for cracks. And a crack has opened, a small but perhaps enough to collapse the entire framework: in Via della Pergola the forensic detectives have found the book that Knox had said that she had brought with her to Raffaele's house. An inconsistency that the student should try to explain. One more element to solve this very intricate puzzle."
Hi Seattleite, we're all in different timezones. I saw some interchange of yours with Robert M from the middle of the night (my time) a couple of days ago, only yesterday.
Thanks for defending hourly service professionals. I'm not a lawyer, but a computer auditor / consultant. We all have to make a living.
The mother-in-law of a colleague of mine thinks like Robert M: she keeps asking him (my friend) when he'll have to return all the money he has billed!
No, I've never thought of doing legal support work. Kind of hard to do it virtually, I think you have to be there. That said, I feel at this point that I could walk down the streets of Perugia like I had been there all my life.
More from the il Giornale article:
http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?....pic1?
ID=228601
(The finding of the "new" knife is old news from yesterday - Frank at Perugia Shock claims it was RS's lawyers who found it, I don't know if that is fact or intended rumour -, what's of interest is the RHG lawyer comment)
Yesterday during the inspection revealed two additional issues. The first is the discovery of an serrated knife with a rounded tip in the cottage garden. "It's an object which is irrelevant to the investigation and incompatible with the weapon of the crime," according to the investigators. "It would not be good even for cutting butter," confirms Walter Biscotti, Rudy Guede's lawyers. By the knife there were also a couple of blood soiled handkerchiefs, which could also have been thrown there by some passing.
Kermit:
For me your work has been immensely valuable...both for the facts and the sense of Perugia. Obviously what they call information technology is your calling. I will bet in your profession you have to take many, many pages with little columns make sense. Kudos to you.
The Potter book thing in this article is either the work of an on strike WGA member or the greatest double McGuffin in the history of crime.
Even better will be why they think an alleged murderer is working to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter.
..walking to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter.
...you are not Ann Rule are you?
Double Imaginary Smiley Face(s)
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:04 am | #
I'm Dirty Harry, but I'm trying to keep the language clean.
End of todays il Giornale article:
Another mystery concerns the tennis shoe imprint found in November near the Mez's corpse by forensic detectives. It seems that the footprint is gone. "I don't know", said Saverio Potenza, a Raffaele Sollecito legal defense team consultant, "if this is linked to a mysterious evaporation, which I do not believe, or to the fact that perhaps it could have been a little manipulated and then trampled." The hypothesis is that the marks left by the Nike shoe had been there were but had been ventilated ((?)) by the investigators. In the request for an inspection, the police scientific stressed that the objective was to gain "from other angles the photographs of the soles of shoes in the scene of the crime" unless if the chemical agents used for previous surveys had compromised their presence.
OT)) reply to: seattleite | 12.19.07 - 1:47 am
Dickie Daly (son of Mayor for Life and current Mayor For Life)"corrupt" say it ain't so CW.
Imaginary Smiley Face
I grew up in Chicago.
I'm sorry seattleite. I can't say it. Please do not make me a hypocrite by saying it. BTW is not "politicans" and "corruption" an oxymoron. Or is it spinmeister's and politicians.
Surely they lifted those prints! Were all the prints we saw in the news videos merely props, like the cctv photos?
They'll probably hold them in jail for a year and then offer to let them out with "time served" if they plead no contest to accessory after the fact.
I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them.
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:54 am
Thanks Pinecone for the clarification on the location of the pillow.
If you mean in the USA (can't hold in jail) you are correct. You can't even put them in jail without an arrest.
If you mean in Italy, well the press made it clear, Italian law allows a suspect, determined by a judge (probably similar to the bail process in USA) to hold a suspect in jail for up to a year.
((OT: kermit--need to find another image of the MAGICAL MYSTERY knife found today. Tried and tried and that link will not load up. I'll hunt around in Ital papers to see if I can find another picture.
Mucho gracias.))
..walking to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter.
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:26 am | #
the book or the guy?
Don't get me wrong, Pinecone, ref my confidence in own scenario (various persons involved). I think that nothing is set or clear yet: we've all been surprised by the twists and turns of this case - and I fear there will be more.
Yesterday I was quite dismayed by the visit to the house. The round knife and hanky may or may not be relevant, maybe they were planted maybe not. But the "evaporation" of the shoe print is baffling to me. We all have seen images of a clear shoe print from the initial inspections. That dried blood wouldn't have disappeared. I'm concerned about police custody of evidence. Anyway I'm off to work. Go to bed!
Kermit:
Thanks for all your help. Cataloging document CDs...must bill.
Xin: lol
Didn't you just know Harry Potter would make an appearance. The translation of the article referenced by Kermit calls this crime a "rebus" but here is the US it is known as Rubiks Cube (sp?)
Seattleite said: Must bill
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:47 am
Seattleite, my problem is that I'm a good consultant (I think), but a lousy businessman.
End of todays il Giornale article:
Another mystery concerns the tennis shoe imprint found in November near the Mez's corpse by forensic detectives. It seems that the footprint is gone. "I don't know", said Saverio Potenza, a Raffaele Sollecito legal defense team consultant, "if this is linked to a mysterious evaporation, which I do not believe, or to the fact that perhaps it could have been a little manipulated and then trampled." The hypothesis is that the marks left by the Nike shoe had been there were but had been ventilated ((?)) by the investigators. In the request for an inspection, the police scientific stressed that the objective was to gain "from other angles the photographs of the soles of shoes in the scene of the crime" unless if the chemical agents used for previous surveys had compromised their presence.
Kermit | 12.19.07 - 2:29 am
----------------------
I posted on disque, not worthy of moving over, my take on going back to the CS after 45 days for another CSI sweep. "Won't those little bleach and blood eating bacteria and other tiny varmints do their own little clean up job." Oh but they found a HP book. Ah ah, takes a big varmint to digest that now.
i avoid all rebuses and rubrics and rubiks. it's better that way.
Investigators need to find out if someone has been in the house or been seen throwing bloody knives into the brush. like how clean was that knife, etc. the footprint photo should hold up, the crime scene was not secure. witnesses to the photo etc. unless they are idiots.
Xin:
You saw the crappy photos the "experts" billing out at $500-$1500 US took at the Spector trial. If I am not mistaken, Henry Lee brought a frickin disposible camera as part of his forensic arsenal to the Spector house. Sheesh.
googlish translation
today's LaStampa
http://tinyurl.com/ywqgld
Pinecone: indicates reliefs were taken--"scene profoundly altered"
copy:
The scientific police [have] seized clothes, postcards and a brush
GUIDO RUOTOLO
Poor Harry Potter. He has become a 'find' kept in a faldone, that the evidence against Amanda Knox (and urge Raffaele), the investigation of Giuliano Mignini pm on the Meredith Kercher. And 'success last night in the Corsican Police Scientific inspection in the house of the "death". Amanda, in the dramatic days of interrogation,[...} explained that the evil evening of November was the first home of Raffaele [Sollecito], had smoked a joint, seen a movie, made love, read some 'pages of Harry Potter , in the German version. And the morning after, [she] returned to [her] home to get a shower and chang[e]. Where [she] then noticed that something is wrong, that the door was open, that there were a toilet stool, there was blood ... But last night, precisely, investigators and technicians who Scientific and again for the last time in the survey made of Meredith, Amanda, Laura and Filomena, have found that volume, Harry Potter. As ever, the text is finished in the Pergola 7? It seems a particular insignificant, but is a further spallata credibility, all'alibi Amanda and Raffaele.
New tracks and new clues emerge from the house of the "death" while others it is as if evaporassero. Not surprising ends of the yellow Perugia. Also the other day Amanda had argued that was not entered the house Philomena. Well, there is a stamp on a postcard, falling from the wall and ended on the floor, which presents a "visual compatibility" with the imprint of the shoe [of] Amanda. It 'something new yet to be confirmed by the technical point of view. From days, weeks, the defenders of the boyfriend of Amanda, I urge Raffaele, asked to conduct new research to the next house on Via della Pergola 7, seeking the weapon of the crime, and here and as if by magic, on the day of new surveys in the cursed house, check between the sterpaglia a knife and two pieces of paper bloodied (fresh blood at first sight). It is a shame that this knife is good only to spread butter on a slice of bread or a fig or cut a slice of watermelon. From day, the defenders always urge Raffaele asked the probative on 'bloody imprint of a shoe next to the body of poor Meredith - that the laboratories Police Scientific is the Nike [of] Raffaele - and here that the inspection yesterday of Police Scientific, and spends forty days after the first reliefs, that 'footprint is as if you had volatilizzata. Deteriorata. And evaporando filed unspeakable suspect to the ground and disturbing questions among experts defenders of suspects.
The day after the "karakiri" (Commentary Investigators) Amanda Knox, before the interrogation pm interrupted at a certain point at the request of its defenders, one of the lawyers, Luciano Ghirga, expressed [concern] for the leaks, because "riservatissimi content of interrogation not yet transcribed, have become public domain. And then notes that "during the inspection of the Scientific Police, the scene inside the apartment is profoundly altered since the first access. It does not add other Ghirga. The defender Raffaele urge, Luca Maori, on the other hand, insists disappearance impression of the bloody shoe: "There is no more. And 'only natural causes? ". It 'obvious that the defenders of calchino urge the hand because that' footprint is the evidence (for the moment) that inchioda Raffaele scene of the crime. Index that - they hear from the Police Scientific - is not for nothing called into question because "were formally 'first regular relief and photographic exhibits biological and fingerprints taken from the Corsican the first inspection.
What is more, under the Nike Raffaele and bloodied on the floor there is a "star", a hallmark of the Nike shoe. Going back to Amanda, the other day, he insisted on a particular: "Back home, I shower stools. Walking barefoot, I trascinai in my room with the pad. Who knows, perhaps the relief of Scientific find traces of Amanda on that pad bloodied? On the day of inspection are broken between sterpaglia a knife (with the tip and round without seghetto) and two bloodied paper handkerchiefs. For the investigators there would be no connection with the case were probably thrown by someone passing through.
You saw the crappy photos the "experts" billing out at $500-$1500 US took at the Spector trial. If I am not mistaken, Henry Lee brought a frickin disposible camera as part of his forensic arsenal to the Spector house. Sheesh.
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:58 am |
the best was the crappy video of that IDIOT Spitz firing off a at something with the cops in the background yelling shit like be careful. that's online somewhere maybe courttv.
yeah henry lee and his funky cammy and yellow stickie notes. but i was there when he got schooled and it was awesome.
copying from disque:
---------------------------
Critical correction to my comments above about the video of MK room. I now stand corrected on my first observation.
--------------------------------
Kermit —Yesterday 11:27 AM
Loz, you asked for the old internal houseplan. It's here.
http://www.mediafire.com/?4fxx2y2g5h9
Keep in mind that Amanda seems to have no wardrobe. The bathrooms aren't necessarily furnished correctly. Kitchen needs to be pushed back a meter.
-------------------------------------
Loz —Yesterday 11:37 AM
thankyou
-------------------------------------
coyotewaits —11 minutes ago
Hmm, the photograph and the video do not seem to line up right for me. I have to take another look at the video. Certainly your drawing, Kermit, looks correct by the photograph. Going to the video again.
------------------------------
coyotewaits —3 seconds ago
I was dead wrong on MK's bedroom, Kermit. The wardrobe is on the same wall as the head end of the bed. Meaning that the wardrobe is just above and to MKs, left (upper torso, head) and her feet facing the door and wall where the desk sets. The photograph and video now sync to your drawing.
When I first viewed the video several times I thought it was a pan of room right to left. Instead I now realize it is a edit cut after filming the wall above the head of the bed at the blood on the wall location, then a pan to the ceiling wood truss support then a starting to pan down adjacent wall of the bed and suddenly a CUT. Then next scene is panning the window, radiator below the window (in center, not to the left of that wall) and then to wardrobe. Except for the window location being in the center, your drawing is exactly correct. Still wonder if there was a blood trail from in front of the wardrobe to by the bed. But in this case she was only moved ~two feet head wise. At this point I can see a struggling self move as well as the possibility she was moved there by some one else.
"panning the window, radiator below the window (in center, not to the left of that wall)"
should read (in center, not to the right corner of that wall)
from disqus:
Kermit —Yesterday 11:33 AM
The bathroom issue is confusing. I recall that both AK's and the victim's blood were found on the bidet. As regards RHG, in my initial comment accompanying the floorplan I said that probably Rudy's depositing of evidence took place in the little bathroom beside the victim's room. Later on one of the Italian TV programmes I saw, it said his DNA was in the big bathroom (on the other side of the house). Did he go that far to be more discrete? In any case, in another programme, it said that both bathrooms have provided evidence, but that may only refer to the cleanup effort.
-----------------------
Loz —Yesterday 11:46 AM with 0 points
The RHG go potty doesn't make sense.
But seems to me RS reported the toilet bowl as clean because he may have been referring to the bloodied bathroom nearest MKs room, while AK may have been talking about the big bathroom. But RHG wouldn't he know which one he pottied in? It means his story doesn't add up.
---------------------------------
Kermit and Loz. My recall is the feces was found in the large bathroom between Laura's and Filomena's rooms. At the end of the house closer to the front door. Also it is Filomena's room where the window was broken and the height from window sill to ground is 3 meters....that side of house faces the country side and is the steep drop off side, with the overlooking terrace off the kitchen and parallel to MK bedroom and the bathroom at that end, where the blood specks were found. Your drawing continues to be quite correct except now for the bidet.
Xin said: kermit--need to find another image of the MAGICAL MYSTERY knife
xin | 12.19.07 - 2:40 am |
Xin, this knife image has got to work
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net...?
ce51f19563.jpg
Don't forget to swap in the new release (not version) of the Aerial Map Powerpoint.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ch9bvj1xkud
It doesn't change much, but amongst the minor modifications, I animate the "via Bulagaio" "escape route". In addition to my inference that under one scenario either RS or RHG could have gone that way and then returned to their homes, another reading could be that one of the criminals (whoever he/she/they may be) could have gone that way (walking/running/or in the famous white car), dumped the phones in Sra. Elisabetta's garden, and kept on going off into the countryside, or towards a highway interchange, and from there ... to points yonder ... Milan? Dusseldorf?
from disqus post:
annarbor —Yesterday 11:53 AM
- Perugia, Dec 18 - "All I can say is that the shoeprint isn't there anymore, I believe it was very latent, very faint and therefore not visible anymore" said Saverio Potenza, expert for Raffaele Sollecito, while leaving the house were Meredith Kercher was killed.
OMG--How can this be? In a case this important, how could this be allowed to happen? Certainly this evidence, KEY EVIDENCE, geeez-- the only real, forensic evidence linking RS to the crime--has been preserved!
This makes No sense. They weren't planning on basing their case against RS only on the actual flooring in the house? And you're right
"but now the expert claims that the lack of shoeprint could have an impact on the position of Raffaele Sollecito"
This is tooo crazy...If this could happen, you are right, Kermit. Who knows whether someone has been in the house to tamper with evidence there. In light of what they are finding today, you have to wonder about the "Forensic Experts" that have been in charge!
-------------------------------
So here was RS lawyers insisting they go back looking for a knife, search the grounds.
Does anyone wish to speculate that the people with connections got someone into that house to clean off the shoe print the one and I believe only real hard forensic evidence against RS. So get them to go back to the house and be embarrassed that that shoe print with all the matching we saw on TV would not be there and.........?
Oh boy, my prediction, RS and attorneys will be appealing for release soon, conspiracy to erase evidence or not (naw! it was those little blood bugs). It's getting interesting. We may be down to two soon. RG and AK anyone?
annarbor —Yesterday 12:33 PM
I am completely stunned at the notion that, because they have allowed the shoeprint evidence to degrade(!?) that it may affect the case of RS. Certainly they know the evidence was there, and have done a fair amount of testing at this point.
I can't help but wonder if the Solecito money have helped to degrade this key piece of evidence. I know that may seem far-fetched, but so does the notion that by allowing the shoeprint to degrade, the case against RS ( or whoever the print came from) is weakened....
That knife they found yesterday looks 'wider' than the one already found, so is that th murder weapon when the other knife is said to be 'too big' (in length or width).
Anyway, here are some knives that are 8" and thin: filleting knife http://www.cookware.co.uk/shop?code=2098 salmon knife http://www.premiercutlery.co.uk/...000_knives/
3016
bpcl —Yesterday 12:48 PM from disqus
I would expect RS's lawyers to say anything they feel in order to try and remove suspicion from their client. This crime was committed on Italian soil and just because we do not like their way of doing things vis-a-vis our own countries is tough luck. The fact of the matter is, that AK and RS are caught up in their own lies. He says that he was on his computer most of the night, from what is it, 9:00 pm until 1:00 pm. AK says that they ate at around 11:00 pm, and then watched a movie and what else, made exotic love. That is a conflict and everyone knows it. The Italian system does not allow for someone to obfuscate the truth and hide behind a lawyer at the present moment. And that should be respected. They are on their own sovereign soil and they can try this case the way they see fit. A young woman has been sexually assaulted, and brutally murdered. They have every right to do what they feel is necessary to bring the criminals to justice. I have stated before, this case will be tried on the forensic evidence and the strength of the suspects alibis or lack thereof. AK says she is innocent as does both RS and RG. Each of them will have their day in court to prove their innocence.
-----------------------------
bpcl, good to see your back on both threads.
Do you really believe, or know, that it is guilty till proven innocent has the method of adjudication in Italian Law?
Robert M, thank you for the psychology stuff. I am reading it right now. Just wanted to comment that WOW she needs a lot of work if true. At least she'll have a long stretch in which to do it!
"Even better will be why they think an alleged murderer is working to or from a murder scene with a copy of Harry Potter."
seattleite | 12.19.07 - 2:22 am
As far as I can see, the article's pretty clear in Italian. It's not that AK walked to and fro with the German Harry P. book, but that she claimed to have been reading it at RS's apartment. And now it has been found at the cottage. So this part of her "alibi" is no longer credible.
[Of course, AK will doubtless claim that she was reading it at RS's place and then took it back to the house on the morning of Nov 2 (along with her empty washing bag).]
"I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them."
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:54 am | #
Articles 9 and 14 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) require that prisoners must be brought to trial and the proceedings completed within ‘a reasonable time’ or be released on bail.
The UN Human Rights Committee has stated that: What constitutes "reasonable time" is a matter of assessment for each particular case.
I guess in this particular case even one year would be regarded as "reasonable time" because of the brutal nature of the crime.
Releasing any one of the suspects at this time would pose a grave risk to the community, because the killer could strike again.
Also Robert M, having a 'masculine' aspect wouldn't necessarily mean that it is murdurous?
And what I find really interesting is on that day that the male in amanda 'came out', she was actually wearing a skirt...
I am not sure that she is 'fractured', my guess is she's just a lying socio/psycho.
also, some women just have 'highr' testosterone levels than other women. While the hormone can affect psychlogy, I don't know that it'd automaically make you a rapist or murdress.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3073340.ece
Harry Potter clue?
Bizarre
Great posts coyotewaits
LOZ, what I'm talking about is a STATE OF MIND and its EXPRESSION in BEHAVIOR. Not testosterone levels or whether she does or does wear a dress. And no, in this theory animus as male energy does NOT = murderous. Here is the wiki link to a decent summary of Jung's position: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Ana...ical_Psychology
But it is a fact that more males commit murders than females. Period. Whether testosterone levels are higher than normal for the murderer at the time of the murder is, of course, a question that can be asked but never answered by field work. And even monitoring testerone levels of convicted murderees in prison is skewed by the fact its an all-male situation. You might ask, well, how high above normal is their T level? That can be answered at least. I'd suspect that the average T level for the GUARDS would also be higher than the general norm. What I haven't seen is any newish work on female socio/psycho paths from the Hare followers, that is addressing questions such as are women S/Ps the same as male S/Ps and any differences perceived re behavior are gender/cultural milieu construct specifc, or do they differ fundamentally from the gitgo. What Hare did was approach these issues as a social scientist, working from his knowledge & experience as a clinician. This is the way to go.
The previous link took you to the bio page on Jung, though that has a nice set of set-off links to in-depth articles such as this one. For all my issues with Wikipedia, its a good starting place for basics that one should follow-up on from other sources. The social science methods applied by Hare need to be applied to the several Jungian concepts, and the DATA SHOULD LEAD TO MODIFICATIONS. I've not seen this happen in the Jungian field; he's been treated too much like a guru, or even a literary master. NOTE: Thomas Moore of Soul Mate fame is 5th or 5th generation Jungian. See the first Jung wiki link for details.
re Harry Potter book. Amanda mentioned this same book and her plans for it in her blog posting. Go to Steve's First Post on this case, for which Halo I are the comments. There are mirrors of the site available through links there. Someone needs to give her the Italian version now.
Do ALL Euro High Profile Crime Cases start off as Tragedies, and then end up as Farces? I smell a bit of Gilbert & Sullivan in the Mikado here. This will work better if you "hear" Peter Sellers voice as Inspector Closeau when youread the judge's line: JUDGE - So, you say you were reading Harry Potter at [lookalike] Rafe's place the night of Nov 1? AK - Yes, the German version. JUDGE - So, how did it get back in your room at the Death House. You know that's an Inconsistency. First its one place & then another. How can that be? Perhaps it NEVER left your room, eh? eh? eh? AK - I brought it back with me on morning of Nov 2 so I walked it back with myself, my clothes and the empty trash bag. I wanted to continue reading it when I did laundry, but seeing the washing machine was being used, I put it in my room and then tidyed that up a bit.
Really FARCE
(1) the TIMES quotong La Stampa: "while, in theory, Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito could have brought the book with them on the morning of November 2, when they arrived at the cottage to find - by their own account - Ms Kercher's bedroom door locked and a window smashed, this was unlikely. [And just what would make it unlikely? eh? eh? eh?. Perfectly normal, se my response as "Amanda" above. The Harry Potter clue was “another blow to the credibility of their alibi” the paper said. [Really? How so?]
(2) then there's this, also "discovered" 40 days on: new search also discovered a footprint belonging to Ms Knox on a postcard found on the floor of the room used by one of the Italian flatmates (absent at the time of the murder), where the window had been broken. Police suspect the window was smashed to simulate a break in. Ms Knox has sworn in testimony that she did not enter the room in question. ,b>[Whoa! That's a big postcard, I mean really big to get at least 7 inches of a sole printed on it. And just how do they know, after less than 24 hours, that that's AMANDA's shoe sole? Hhhhhhmmmmm. So was it the whole sole, a tip, a heel, a side & what was so special about it? and Where was it found. AND WHY WASN'T IT FOUND ON THE INITIAL ROOM SEARCH???]
You can dress people up in CSI mufti, masks gloves & all, but you can't make them do their job correctly, it seems, especially in a room with a broken window that has to be linked to the murder. SHEESH.
SECURE ALL ASPECTS OF THE CRIME SCENE. THEN CATALOG THOROUGHLY EACH PART OF IT WITH PICS & ITEM INVENTORY. Then recheck that you've done that & recheck again.
really really FARCICAL---->from the TIMES' last paragraph: Police also removed “bloodstained items of clothing” apparently overlooked in previous searches. Whose clothes? Where found? and WHY ONLY NOW?
Thank-you Robert for herding us all back in one place! This is the only place with a continuous flow of information and thoughts on Meredith's murder.
I am following another murder case (Michelle Young) where the investigators apparently left quite a bit of bloody items too. LE was in the home for 13 days and even missed an avulsed tooth of Michelle's. She had been brutally bludgeoned to death. The initial days of any investigation are just so crucial to a case. Sometimes shoddy investigations make justice almost unattainable. We have seen it so many times, and it is so very frustrating.
Andy T: Book location
If Amanda had not already admitted to going to the house once and then again the morning of police arrival-- I guess it would be significant.
Also having spent an hour yesterday looking for some work papers for someone in a room where they were sure "they had left them" and after futile search found the papers in a another office but a different floor of the same building I may be predisposed to believe people don't know really know where they leave things sometimes.
Does she only have one Harry Potter book? I thought were like a zillion of them in that series.
More bad clean-up by that mastermind Amanda. You know what the defense guy would like to say to the prosecutor: "This is what you got on my client??!!"
I am not an expert about judiciary issues but your criticism of the way of dealing of scientific Police in Italy is not completely correct. Italian Forensic Police (RIS, ERT in some cases) is more efficient than in other countries, including the US, as far as we know from statistics.
I can say that regarding police and magistrates corruption is as more common in the South of Italy than north of Rome.
From what I know, people can be detained in prison only in case of crimes which have a punishment higher than four years.
The issue regarding cautelary custody (custodia cautelare) begins to be dangerous if the Police or the media system are or become biased. There has been a long debate going on in Italy regarding privacy but from what I see the only prevention obtained regards phone calls and sms tapping.
I suppose the media leaking can become an useful method for lawyers the influence the public opinion.
All in all, the Italian system is far too slow and sometimes not harsh enough when dealing with penalties, in my opinion.
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/
...3ba99c53b.shtml
They still talk about the shoe. The shoeprint has got a star on it, Raffaele has got a similar shoe. The print is faded, RS's lawyers say it is much deteriorated to be analysed further. That's what they are contesting but the shoeprint is still there, from what i reckon.
ERT has taken from the house other clothes with blood on them.
The accusation refers about Harry Potter's book; defence replies that Raffaele said that the morning after the murder Amanda put all of her stuff in his backpack and left the house
The postcard with the footprint on it probably fell down as the perpetrators rummaged Filomena's room, says the Police
I am not an expert about judiciary issues but your criticism of the way of dealing of scientific Police in Italy is not completely correct. Italian Forensic Police (RIS, ERT in some cases) is more efficient than in other countries, including the US, as far as we know from statistics.
I can say that regarding police and magistrates corruption is as more common in the South of Italy than north of Rome.
From what I know, people can be detained in prison only in case of crimes which have a punishment higher than four years.
The issue regarding cautelary custody (custodia cautelare) begins to be dangerous if the Police or the media system are or become biased. There has been a long debate going on in Italy regarding privacy but from what I see the only prevention obtained regards phone calls and sms tapping.
I suppose the media leaking can become an useful method for lawyers the influence the public opinion.
All in all, the Italian system is far too slow and sometimes not harsh enough when dealing with penalties, in my opinion.
Headline: Girl Reads Book. Takes Book With Her to read MORE!
xin,
uh oh. just saw on the other haloscan that "italian woman" (i.e. AK's cheerleader) finds your comments amusing. I tried to find where you commented on her "blog" but couldn't. If I get the gist of her snarkiness, you found her blogs to be pro-AK. So did I...matter of fact, the last comment she posted on her own blog plants seeds about Meredith's sexual past in a rather sneaky way. At least that's the way I read it. Sure hope Meredith's family doesn't chance upon the Seattle/Italian Woman. Her stance might just cause them even more grief now that she has decided to bring up the victim's sexual history...
http://www.agi.it/italy/news/200...en0063-
art.html
the death caused by group violence
http://www.agi.it/italy/news/200...en0041-
art.html
MEREDITH: METAL DETECTOR ON TERRAIN OUTSIDE HOUSE (this morning)
That first article is especially interesting, Loz. Although it is far from specific, it implies some very strong evidence, aside from the forensics (such as they are at this point!)that we know about, that links all three to the murder...Reading it also drives home once again the horror of that night.
It's funny how Knox remembers they had sex that evening, but RS can't be sure. It doesn't quite tie in with the frenzied 'shopping for lingerie' scenario. They'd only been together for 2 weeks, and RS can't eveb remember if he had sex with her or not! Doesn't sound much like a wild sex life to me.
And how is Knox explaining why she said Meredith had never been to RS's home - when it turns out that her, RS and Meredith all had dinner at his flat? RS claims this is when he 'pricked' Meredith's finger, yet not long before, he had claimed he barely knew Meredtih.
Once again, if these kids are not totally stupid, why would they say things which they KNOW will be disproved?
----------------------
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
..._119163883.html
..An examination of Sollecito's computer revealed that it had not been used just before and after the estimated time of death, from 9pm to 2am on the night between November 1 and 2, thus contradicting the student's claim that he had been working alone on his thesis that night.
--This is the first time I see that Rafe said he was working on his thesis. This Italian newspaper I thought was considered a good paper, but I doubt that this reporting is correct.
And how is Knox explaining why she said Meredith had never been to RS's home - when it turns out that her, RS and Meredith all had dinner at his flat? RS claims this is when he 'pricked' Meredith's finger, yet not long before, he had claimed he barely knew Meredtih. soozie UK
Yeah, they really need to coordinate their stories.
I can't locate the link right now, but in yesterday's Repubblica, RS' dad was quoted as he "clarified" RS' statement. He said that, of course, Rafe had meant that he cooked dinner at the girls' flat since MK had never been to his house.
He didn't explain why MK was helping him cook when they barely knew each other...
Re the German Harry Potter book
RobertM: "...[And just what would make it unlikely? eh? eh? eh?."
Seattleite: "Headline: Girl Reads Book. Takes Book With Her to read MORE!"
I know, I know, it does sound farcical, but I think ILE have made their conclusions based on RS's statements (+ also AK's statements).
As Fran has pointed out AK supposedly put all of her stuff in RS's backpack and left the house.
This is why LE have concluded that it is "unlikely" that she took the HP book with her. I also think that, in addition to this, they have also asked AK what she took with her and she has not mentioned the book.
I know the above is all inference from the media reports, but IMO this really is the only way the story makes sense.
I'm really hoping that Italian LE turn out to be more competent than their counterparts in Portugal. There the main problem seems to have been Goncalo Amaral (who's like a figure out of Zorro).
An examination of Sollecito's computer revealed that it had not been used just before and after the estimated time of death, from 9pm to 2am on the night between November 1 and 2, thus contradicting the student's claim that he had been working alone on his thesis that night.
Geeez, I think that its entirely possible that RS' hard drive might have degraded in the last month or so--then we'll just have to take his dad's word that his son was working all night on that computer.
The computer again? I've read at least six conflicting accounts (police, lawyers etc) that he was, wasn't, was, wasn't, was, wasn't on his computer. And his lawyers insist they can 'prove' he was on it, and the police say they can 'prove' he wasn't, and my head is spinning with what to believe and what not to believe!
----------------------------
ann arbor | 12.19.07 - 12:48 pm "Yeah, they really need to coordinate their stories."
I'm sorry to say it Ann Arbor but I don't think that would necessarily be in their interests...
I keep thinking of the comment made by Micha on the other thread:
"In keeping with most such cases in Italy, her stories will continue to change in keeping with her lawyers whims. The more convoluted and confused the reports...the better for her defence."
Fran, what's your opinion? Was Micha right?
i really thought that RS was most likely innocent. If he did anything, it woould be the cleanup, and he was not aware that he was cleaning up after a murder.
But, that diary he wrote, specifically about the excuses for the knife in his flat with dna from knox and meredith-- really has made me reconsider.
I don't think RS lawyers are that smart cause they shouldn't have let him write that diary.
Chris, if Italians have a weakness, it's that they talk (write) too much.
Kermit................Wow....Thanks for the powerpoint presentation...Well done my friend..for sure your an above "average Frog"..........(I had to go and download a 60 day trial of Office 2007 to view it-Well worth the 1 hour download time)
"In keeping with most such cases in Italy, her stories will continue to change in keeping with her lawyers whims. The more convoluted and confused the reports...the better for her defence." AndyT
Hmmmm. Well, that doesn't make much sense to me. I assumed that the more they talk, the deeper the hole they're digging.
BUT...having said that, there are definite differences in the Italian way of doing things(that's not a criticism!). I guess nothing would surprise me at this point.
AnnArbor said: I think that its entirely possible that RS' hard drive might have degraded in the last month or so--then we'll just have to take his dad's word that his son was working all night on that computer.
ann arbor | 12.19.07 - 12:55 pm |
Good to see you here, Ann. I'm a computer auditor. What the ILE would have done upon seizing the computer (a Mac PowerBook, I believe), is make a copy of the hard disk, probably removing it to do so (actually, Mac's are great, you could probably safely read the disk as an external drive, without having to take it out of the computer case, and feel safe in a legal sense too). This avoids the damage to forensic data which a startup routine could potentially cause.
The ILE would then proceed to examine the copy of the hard disk through tools which only read data and don't write to the analysis disk. Documenting everything they do, very carefully.
I believe I read somewhere where RS's legal team has their own "preserved" copy of the disk, which they would be using to counter prove any conclusions of the state prosecutor.
If all that is true, the only automatic or manual degradation of the disk data which could have occurred is what would have occurred between Nov. 1 night, and Nov. 6, when RS was arrested. (e.g. logs being written over, browser histories erased (or modified), certain caches reused or erased). If RS is guilty, and he sensed he may be arrested or his computer seized, he probably would have had time to manual make modifications to some easy to get at information in those 5 days. However, we're not in an MS-DOS world any more. Both Windows and Mac-OSX (which is really just a Unix variant) are very complex, and non-application level hanky-panky would probably be obvious, or difficult to do.
That said, I have the feeling that maybe he didn't consider the possibility of being arrested (lingerie shopping, standing in line at police station, etc.). Or maybe they decided to have a last hurrah before heading to preventative arrest.
Meman said: the powerpoint presentation.
meman | 12.19.07 - 1:55 pm |
Look at it alot before your demo license expires! BTW, make sure you have the version accessed with the link above in this blog at: Kermit | 12.18.07 - 6:21 pm |
Kermit:
If a Powerpoint can be hot...that is hot!
Coyotewaits,
I must confess, I do not know what the adjudication process is in Italy. I feel very confident that in the not too distant future, AK, RS and RG will be charged for the murder of Meredith Kercher. The Italian authorities have done a masterful job to get these three possible suspects to contradict each other; and they have. It is nice to see RS's lawyer running around and trying to explain to everyone who will listen, that the planet Earth is really flat and not round.
Justice for Meredith is what is paramount here because she was left to die a painful death. If these three suspects had anything to do with it (which I believe they have), I do not feel sorry for them. For me, what is most important, are the words that come from their mouths, because in reality, that is all we have to go on here. The forensic evidence will be presented one day, and when it is, then we can discuss their possible culpabilities.
seattleite said: | 12.19.07 - 3:27 pm |
Yeah, for better or worse, that is the power of images. I don't want to get OT and into politics, but back in early 2003 Colin Powell used a PowerPoint presentation in the UN full of neat drawings of mobile chemical weapon plants on trucks.
If I had some time, I'd try to develop some of the specific scenarios, as a sort of visual proof-of-concept walkthrough. But ... no time. Maybe over Xmas at some point.
Hi, Kermit. Yeah, glad to have found my way here!
My posting about RS hard drive was actually a misguided attempt at cynical humor. It seems as though the forensic evidence against RS seems to be strangely unusable...I keep thinking that his family's wealth and social standing may be helping to degrade some of the evidence against him.
BUT...I did find the information that you posted very interesting and reassuring. So thank you.
I still think that there was no way that any of these 3 anticipated the international attention that MK's murder has received, and I doubt that they were expecting to be arrested. I think that they were banking on a small town, small time, investigation--Quick and dirty and done. OMGoodness, were they wrong.
You crack me up sometimes seattleite..ahhh life is good....powerpoint and points(Disqus)!
Kermit | 12.19.07 - 3:39 pm If I had some time, I'd try to develop some of the specific scenarios,........Hey ....dont forget,I only have 60 days .........
did anyone know that Jeff Tripoli, a friend and fellow student of Amanda Knox (http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:nSzeT-
fXr_4J:www.veoh.com/videos/
v1446743KWMRhT7D+profile+story+%22Amanda+Knox+%22&
hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=49&gl=uk) is the editor of http://64.233.169.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=4&
gl=uk
I think the press knew. wonder if any UW student saved documents from her facebook acc?
AnnA, sorry, my cynicism receptors weren't switched on. Yeah, the RS legal team is pretty well funded and stocked. There are three lawyers who all appear together wherever there's a mission to be carried out (TV interviews, house inspections, etc.), in addition to technical specialists.
I think it was one of the technical specialists who spotted the knife yesterday. I saw additional TV coverage today, both the knife and 2 blood soiled hankies were found in the the entrance ramp area (I'm going to recheck that, to confirm it - in any case the house wasn't within the camera's field, ie, it wasn't within meters of the house). If you recall, there's a handrail on the edge of the road, they were just under the handrail (like I said, I have to confirm that), within the house lot, but they could have fallen from hands at street level, or from some specialist's hands right there
sorry, he's the editor of the UW dialy paper 'the daily'.
Results from Reuters concerning the crime:
http://www.reuters.com/article/
w...931807120071219
Well, Meman, I'll see what I can do. It causes my better half (my half-orange in Spanish) great consternation when I work on those ppts. Yeah, I'll get motivated before your license flickers out.
seems the times got a quote from her facebook:
This story from the Times in the UK quotes Knox's Facebook profile: "I don't get embarrassed and therefore have very few social inhibitions."
from http://216.239.59.104/search?q=c...clnk&cd=9&
gl=uk but it doesn't say which article. But i searched and it's this one http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2821154.ece
from the Peruga Shock blog-- I found this interesting about the cell phones.
2) About the cellphones it appeared clear that who has thrown them away has walked through the little door in the walls that takes from Corso Garibaldi to the Parco Sant'Angelo. This door is in the path between Raffaele's and Rudy's houses, near Raffaele house but VERY near Rudy's house, almost in front of it. I've found out that that evening the door was locked and they opened it only at 8 of next morning, so the murderer kept cellphones with him during all night
Not to worry, Kermit. It was a pretty feeble joke on my part.
Yeah, between his lawyers and father, RS seems to have a very active spin machine...
Result from the Harry Potter clue.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3073340.ece
Anonymous | 12.19.07 - 4:17 pm |
--that was me posting, didn't log in.
analysis from AK quizzing by Magistrate
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3067558.ece
Loz | 12.19.07 - 4:17 pm |
Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden."
Amanda Knox described on MySpace how she found the house in which Meredith Kercher was murdered:
“We run into a very skinny girl who looks a little older than me putting up a page with her number on the outer wall of the university. I chat it up with her, she speaks English really well, and we go immediately to her place, literally two minutes from my university. It's a cute house that is right in the middle of this random garden in the middle of Perugia. Around us are apartment buildings, but we enter through a gate and there it is. I’m in love. I meet her roommate Molly. The house has a kitchen, two bathrooms, and four bedrooms. Not to mention a washing machine, and internet access. Not to mention, she owns two guitars and wants to play with me. Not to mention the view is amazing. Not to mention I have a terrace that looks over the city/countryside. I put down a down payment. I’m feeling sky high. These girls are awesome. Really sweet, really down to earth, funny as hell. Neither are students . . . they are desperate for roommates because the two they wanted disappear[ed] all of a sudden"
"That is exactly what burns me up when I read someone calling RS a scumbag, and they've never heaped insults on the killer, Rudy. There seems to be an agenda other than finding out who committed the crime." --Pinecone
I think it's that Rudy is a lowlife, and never pretended to be anything else.
BCPL, the Harry ptter clue story was linked to earlier above, and I riffed on its "cluelessness" in a two-set, semi-sarcastic post. seattleite then posted her own riff. Which leads to:
EVERYONE!!!!!! ---> Please try to remember where you wre when you stopped ready last, and try to pick up there when you comes. I know its a pain, but it'll avoid re-introducing stuff already linked & discussed. HOWEVER and you know there's always a "however", many of the papers, especially if its a "news" day like Monday, will do ongoing updates of the original story, adding material. Checking back into a story is recommended and if it appears to have been updated, do please post a note an dthe new link. Thanks!
ANDYT what other Haloscan page are you referring to? Not Steve's correct, but xin was over there? If another blogger, can you post a link?
"Asked how she explained the presence of both hers and Ms Kercher's DNA on the kitchen knife thought to be the murder weapon, Ms Knox replied "I don't know, I can't understand it". She said "Mez" - Ms Kercher's nickname - had never been at Mr Sollecito's flat, where the knife was found. Il Messaggero said she appeared unaware that Mr Sollecito has claimed that he, Ms Knox and Ms Kercher had cooked together in the kitchen of his flat."
RS just can't seem to keep himself out of trouble. I think AndyT said, Italians just cannot shut up.
RobertM,
I thought it might have been linked. I am still trying to get adjusted to this new site if you will. Thanks for the update, and if the other two are redundant as well, then I do apologize.
LOZ as you are the one who's linked to the UW student newspaper story on journalism ethics, could you be the "official" UW monitor? That is, use their web-site search function and create links for all of their stories on the case, and then post the links here? (Skip summaries, just make sure that the date is part of the lead in to the link.) I never thought to check in there myself, and really, we should see what's happening.
Has the Seattle Post-I created a separate blog on this with comments, or do all the comments appear at the end of each separate online story? Has anybody been reading them?
[I really have to proof my typing more.]
To Rudy it’s going to make little difference if they hang him with one rope or two. So I don’t see any great incentive on his part to further implicate AK/RS and/or anybody else before trial, or even afterwards. Amanda has already taken one bullet for Rudy (targeted Patrick), and neither AK nor RS will utter one syllable about Ru-dy. RS and particularly AK are clearly on some pretty thin ice right now. So all it would take is some semi-credible story by Rudy; true or untrue, implicating AK & maybe RS , and they will most likely both sink up to their necks. That is if the preponderance of evidence doesn’t get them first.
The only person I think who can reach Rudy is his step dad, and maybe help Rudy clear the air about what happened that night. If Rudy’s step dad is on board, I hope he gets frequent visitation rights
BCPL the first link to the "group murder" story based on the OTHER judge's report re keeping Rudy locked was just perfect, as we have so little right now in terms of Rudy stories. ALSO, because though referred to as a multi-page summary of the reasons against Rudy's release, you couldn't even say that the reporter gave the "bare bones"! Online the story didn't run 2 full columns!!!
Has THIS report been printed by any of the Italin papers in full???? Does anybody know??? Original source is REUTERS.
Here's the first column:
PERUGIA, Italy (Reuters) - A group of people actively participated in the murder of a British exchange student in Italy, found dead last month with her throat slashed, a judge wrote in a document released on Wednesday. ... The third suspect, Rudy Hermann Guede, was extradited back to Italy on December 6 after fleeing to Germany after the murder. Investigators suspect all three may have been involved in the killing and say they have evidence that all three were in Kercher's flat the night she was murdered.
Judge Maurizio Bufali wrote in a document confirming Guede's arrest that his testimony -- in which he claimed to have scuffled with an unidentified killer just after Kercher was stabbed -- was "full of decisive falsehoods". The judge said the investigation had found "the presence of more people in that house at the moment in which Meredith was killed, and the quick departure of all of them after the tragic conclusion of the evening".
"(There was) a group participation in the heinous crime in which a passive role does not appear plausible for any of those present," he wrote. All three suspects deny involvement but investigators have pounced upon apparent contradictions in their testimonies. Bufali wrote that investigators had not yet established the motive for the killing, although they had put forward the possibility of sexual assault.
I was startled by this article too, bpcl. It seemed to imply that the court is in possesion of some very strong evidence aside from the forensic evidence that we know about... but on a second read, there isn't really anything concrete. They are once again pointing to inconsistencies in their stories, and while i personally find that fairly damning, if cw is right, that will not be enough to charge or convict them.
DLW I dunno. Given that the Cell-Phone Records indicate that Amanda called or was called both BEFORE & AFTER the crime time by Rudy -- and ILE has consistently maintained that these aren't pings but reall calls -- neither AK or Rudy can deny both knowing each & being in contact. Both SHOULD have been pressed/asked about those contacts and their content. But we don't know that they have, i.e. no such set of questions answered or not has been leaked to the media by the ILE. Which I find very strange. Unless of course those questions are among the ones Amanda refused to answer towards the end of her session. Still, her lawyers will have to address them, as does Rudy's lawyers. The problem with answering that A & R have is that they have no way of guessing what the other will say about the content! And yet before the deciding tribunal, their lawyers will have to have answers for those calls, or let the prosecutors paint them as conspiracy set-up & then conspiracy cover-up.
It just seems to me that Rudy's goose is pretty cooked right now, so why NOT be "The 1st of the 3" to do a come clean? He says something like this: It was a drug deal & friendly meet that went wrong once Meredith found out her money was missing, and Amanda & her really screamed and I went to the bathroom and was almost done when I heard this awful noise and raced back into Mez' room to find Mez on her knees bleeding all over and Amanda standing there dumb-founded with a bloody knife in her hand, and then I ..." Getting to the bench first with the best story that delivers the other two is his only hope for a 10 year sentence as opposed to a 20 to Life sentence. I just doubt that his step-father would make the effort, and his lawyers are going to flounder if he won't listen to them.
Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden." chris
yep, that means they didn't get on with the other two room mates. i have always wondered just how 'good' mollys alibi is. it must be. but i got the 'impression' she was only over-nighting elsewhere, perhaps with her b/f as an nly wiitness? I could be 100% totally wrong. and for that I apologise.
Hello, I haven't posted in a while, but I have followed through all the threads.. Hope everyone is well!
This story is still so strange to me. Well, I mean at least the fact that AK and RS have not mentioned Rudy, and vice versa... Weird, Weird, Weird! It makes me wonder if they actually have, but that this is purposely being left out of the press... Who knows.. guess we just have to wait and see what happens next... Have a good night everyone
Loz wrote: Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden." chris
yep, that means they didn't get on with the other two room mates...? I could be 100% totally wrong. and for that I apologise.
Loz if everyone apologises for taking a flyer at an idea the whole blog would be "Sorry...sorry...sorry..." True crime blogging means never having to say your'e sorry...or just once in awhile.
When I read your post it took me back to Rob's couple of inquiries as to the history of that house often rented by young professionals or students. There wasn't much info on it but I thought especially people in that part of town would know that house (it sticks out so from the sat photos to Kermit's terrific ppts) as the "student house" or something.
jenny | 12.19.07 - 5:12 pm | #
RS hs talked about Rudy. Says he never saw him or heard of him before.
they have only written 10 stories. quite surprised by that. and they've assigned an 'Arla shepherd' to it. It's just 'facts' with n emotions. They're being careful. A 'Madison' is quite a vocal defender of Knoxy (my guess is it's her friend) BUT her points are valid so far as I have read, she is just defending a friend. and also 'friends of amanda' Anyway, here they are:
--All three of the suspects may be held for up to two years before being formally charged. -- from 1 article but another says up to a year. ---
the articles aren't worth reading, but if you want to seem just search the daily uw in google.
Jeff Tripoli - 11/08/07
The article reads that Knox put her fingers in her own ears...
--------
ah, he comments. but it's nowt brilliant...
I remember that Middie posted something a couple of weeks ago about Rudy being recorded by LE when talking to his father in prison. He told his dad that he knew who the killer was, but was afraid to name him.
I know that a lot of the posters don't believe that anyone else was there, but there is evidence to the contrary...I still think its possible that there was someone there that was much more hardcore than any of the 3 (not saying they're innocent).
If he is really ruthless, Rudy may well have reason to fear him. Perhaps that is why he isnt naming AK or RS. That would necessitate revealing the truth, including other perps name, thereby endangering Rudy and RS--even in prison.
Oh, Kermit!!! Do some more of that! What a great presentation and yes adding that last little bit of animation was a topper. Geez, that house has a GREAT view & location. You just know that the owner will be charging a top top rate come next July/August, as its now more than a room with a view. Where's Club Chic? can you work that in too?
another interesting article from the UW paper mentoned knox's troubles when addressing the anxieties of parents of tudents going to uni. nothing about rape or murder or mks experiences. that's the only 'bias' i've seen in the paper. but pretty astounding.
I believe knox is lying through her teeth. she's not got did or mpd, that's clear from her writings from jail, her statements, and her convo with her mum saying how it's dumb to deny she was not at the house. IMHO.
with the finding of all this new evidence. the good thing is, RS was clearly there. I wonder what 'molly' (filomena?) has been upto since the ILE left the crime scene until the last few days? was one of her phones dumped in the garden? or was her number on MKs phone(s) in the garden? presuming she had her phone with her, cos that's how postal police contacted her?
ann arbor oh, yes, that "who could Rudy be more scared of then the police" got a couple of presentations towards the ned of Halo2 and at Disqus. I know I did one riff on it, bringing back Mr & Ms CS & the White care. But THANKS! for reminding us about the Rafe tape comment. Really, that's as germane to the matter as the ILE making a bigger deal about what amanda said to her parents. (Though, again, such tapes would not make it into evidence in a US court.)
So--has ILE followed up on that, say in the PM's questionning of Rafe? We don't know. No one leaked that part of the questioning. To me Rudy's behavior stinks of stupidity, or real cunning in that he knows if he sings, no prison in Italy is safe for him. Perhaps we should call this theory The Mob Theory?
I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them.
Pinecone | 12.19.07 - 1:54 am |
ha ha....welcome home to those British residents released from the Yankee torture camp in Cuba after being held and tortured for FIVE years WITHOUT CHARGE!
you grotesque whining Americans make the world a sick sick place.
"Wow-- "the other roomates dissapeared all of sudden." chris"
It was a holiday. Perhaps they were visiting family as was the "boyfriend" of Meredith.
feb 7th, 2007
here are some 'choice' quotes from j.tripoli in the daily, the UW student paper he edits. he's AKs friend who has been defending her as a sweetheart. some say he was her b/f, others say he's gay. he seems like a hetero from these quotes to me, and maybe a pig with a size issue??:
Q: What’s the one thing you’d like to teach your partner in bed?
Tripoli: If you come across someone who’s sexually ignorant, there’s really not a lot you can do to “improve” them within the confines of a random hookup. Unfortunately, the bulk of my sex life hasn’t been one steady source of income, so there’s really nothing I’ve had the time to impart on anyone. Just don’t make me do all the work. It pisses me off.
Q: Does the g-spot exist?
Tripoli: If it does, it’s pretty damn elusive. A lot of girls I’ve talked to don’t even know where it is, so how the hell should I be expected to find it? In general, I’ve found girls don’t like me messing around in there anyway. If there’s a g-spot for guys, it’s pretty obvious where it is, but the hell if I’ll come anywhere close to touching it.
his most interesting quote...
Q: Is it the size of the boat or the motion in the ocean?
Tripoli: I think the more experienced girls find both a necessity. I guess I’ve never really cared how it was for her anyway, so I’ve never bothered to have anyone gauge how I ranked in either department. I keep myself happy, it’s up to her to do the same for herself. As far as guys go, the boat size is irrelevant and the motion in the ocean is painful, so it’s not much of an issue.
Q: If you could switch genitalia for a day, what would you do?
Tripoli: I’d really like to know if girls actually experience better orgasms, because it certainly sounds like they do. I’d probably be a total slut for a day (I’m assuming that I get a hot female body to go with my new hardware). But with my luck, I’d start my period that day, so probably not a lot.
http://celesteflint.wordpress.co...nda-knox-story/
on November 18, 2007 at 3:25 pm5 Mike Spencer
Let me ask one more question about Jeff Tripoli. Why is he representing himself to the media as Amanda Knox’s boyfriend of last year while, at that time, he was a widely self-proclaimed homosexual? hmmmmm? not in his paper he wasn't?
Ah, Sparrow & Chris, I think you are mis-inteprreting what Amanda wrote. Her blog entry was about the luck of finding the house as a place to live so quickly after she & her sister Deanna had arrived in Perugia. The phrase "disappeared" likely means that Molly & Filomena had commitments from two other women who reneged on them by likely not following through on the deposit & wouldn't answer their calls over it. The entry doesn't have anything to do with the Molly & Filomena taking off for the Nov 1 & 2 "holiday".
you grotesque whining Americans make the world a sick sick place.
UK ash | 12.19.07 - 5:46 pm | # .................what a sick sick poster and post.....
Well, LOZ, when I was in college, we might have talked like that [OK, not much like that at all, though it was raunchy], but we did it late at night in the dorm rooms. A guy who mouthed off like that in day publicly we would just assume was having trouble even getting close to the ocean, let alone getting his boat in. But that, ah, was then.
Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 5:56 pm | #
--thank you for herding us all back to this place Robert.
I was aware that Amanda wasn't talking about current roomates. I agree with your explanation that the potential roomates that "disappeared" didn't mean anything--at first I thought it did though.
http://thedaily.washington.edu/a...1/11/
smokinAces
"The action scenes are fantastically gory" - Jeff Tripoli
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...rMurderSuspects
a guide to comments when you're reading knox stories by the paper
(someone posting as 'jeff'. don't know if the email is required to be a UW one or not, so who knows:
Jeff Tripoli - 11/09/07
I'd like to point out that the guy posting as "Jeff" on these articles is not me -- I go by my first and last name when I post.
this is the girl who wrote about the british press' unfairness to AK (herself affiliated with UW The Dail)
http://celesteflint.wordpress.co...r/celesteflint/
About: celesteflint
Full Name
Celeste Flint
Website
http://
Details
Celeste is a University of Washington student majoring in journalism. She's currently the opinion editor of UW's The Daily.
check out 'anons' comment in this article, for another theory:
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...dNewSuspectHeld
an un PC article to say the least about the problem with 'african' immigrant is Perugia from the UW paper:
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...oALargerProblem
Many dealers are illegal immigrants from North African and Near Eastern countries who come not to seek opportunity and security, but easy money and sensory delights...One way they could decisively crack down would be to round up dealers who have illegally immigrated and deport them. If you come to a foreign country simply to break the law, perhaps you should try doing it in your homeland first... *wonders if this would be applied to AK?*
feb 7th, 2007
here are some 'choice' quotes from j.tripoli in the daily, the UW student paper he edits. he's AKs friend who has been defending her as a sweetheart. some say he was her b/f, others say he's gay. he seems like a hetero from these quotes to me, and maybe a pig with a size issue??:
Q: What’s the one thing you’d like to teach your partner in bed?
Tripoli: If you come across someone who’s sexually ignorant, there’s really not a lot you can do to “improve” them within the confines of a random hookup. Unfortunately, the bulk of my sex life hasn’t been one steady source of income, so there’s really nothing I’ve had the time to impart on anyone. Just don’t make me do all the work. It pisses me off.
Q: Does the g-spot exist?
Tripoli: If it does, it’s pretty damn elusive. A lot of girls I’ve talked to don’t even know where it is, so how the hell should I be expected to find it? In general, I’ve found girls don’t like me messing around in there anyway. If there’s a g-spot for guys, it’s pretty obvious where it is, but the hell if I’ll come anywhere close to touching it.
his most interesting quote...
Q: Is it the size of the boat or the motion in the ocean?
Tripoli: I think the more experienced girls find both a necessity. I guess I’ve never really cared how it was for her anyway, so I’ve never bothered to have anyone gauge how I ranked in either department. I keep myself happy, it’s up to her to do the same for herself. As far as guys go, the boat size is irrelevant and the motion in the ocean is painful, so it’s not much of an issue.
Q: If you could switch genitalia for a day, what would you do?
Tripoli: I’d really like to know if girls actually experience better orgasms, because it certainly sounds like they do. I’d probably be a total slut for a day (I’m assuming that I get a hot female body to go with my new hardware). But with my luck, I’d start my period that day, so probably not a lot. - LOZ
oh sorry, here's a link to the choice quotes from AKs friend
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...oyaleSexEdition
Regards RobertM and others including my own about the media reporting on this case being nothing less than abominable and the worst of, if any, being called journalism:
my daughter just arrived today from Europe for the holiday and to join with her husband for a month after six months on the air roads in Europe. She is a paleo-climatogist and geophysicist and a senior post-doc researcher on the European Union's Northern Europe climate projection and impact project. Her work bounces her back and forth to Universities in Stockholm, Vienna, Lyon, Prague and London (she is based in Stockholm).
As we drove in from the aeroport we were chatting about the latest news in Chicago and she noted the international attention (mostly web based) of the local Stacy Petersen case here in Chicagoland. But the point was her comment:
"You just cannot believe the tabloid press and TV news coverage in Europe, all the countries. We think we are crass in the US with our ET, Access Hollywood, and creepy celebrity sheets at grocery/drug store checkout stands.
It is utterly unbelievable what you see and read in Europe. The main tabloid press and even reputable press are hung up on the demand for innuendo, drama and downright maliciousness in their reporting. And I thought Europeans were so cool about being secular in cultural life, open minded, and so above the ignorance of Americans. It's so the opposite"
We chatted on about my interest in the MK case and she noted it's exposure, especially in London, but had not paid any attention to it. It was an enlightening discussion for me about Europeans and my previous impressions of them being more civilized than Americanized westerners.
LOZ!!! You had already posted that Jeff Tripoli "interview" at 5:55 pm. Please try not to double post. Thanks.
As Fran has pointed out AK supposedly put all of her stuff in RS's backpack and left the house.
This is why LE have concluded that it is "unlikely" that she took the HP book with her. I also think that, in addition to this, they have also asked AK what she took with her and she has not mentioned the book.
AndyT,
I wrote what is written on the Italian newspaper Il Corriere della Sera today; they say defence wants to prove that actually Amanda put all the stuff in a backpack and left the house with that, so that the book was brought back to her house.
What I can say about Amanda's defence? I don't think they are doing their best but by the way it is difficult to deal with such confused confession as the one from Amanda
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews...ox-
3fd0ae9.html
Knox's parents are due to visit her, while prison chaplain Sauro Scarabattoli said: "I always tell inmates to tell the truth but to distinguish between that and sincerity which can be a mistaken version of the truth.
article by Tripoli.
was "north of Northeast 45th Street" where AK lived and had to pay for some kind of house-party disturbance?
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...uctCodeRevision
...Recent outbreaks of violence have brought to more urgent light the long-standing problems associated with student life north of Northeast 45th Street. As it stands, the Student Conduct Code does not extend to student conduct off-campus...“[We’re] addressing safety issues for students,” said ASUW President Cullen White. “[Conduct code expansion] will be addressing serious offenses: physical and sexual assault, stalking, and also quality of life issues: noise complaints, vandalism, public urination.”
The potential for legislation in Olympia dealing with these problems has led the student senate to address the problem in hopes of coming up with a solution of its own....“We either oppose an expansion and end up opposing and lobbying against the bill, or we develop our own solution,” said White[ASUW President]. -seems they want to 'avoid' things?-
hmmm which is why AK was still considered a very honourable student?
Chris wrote quoting "tell the truth but to distinguish between that and sincerity which can be a mistaken version of the truth."
What does this mean?
Chris,
ANSA is just a news agency with its own website, not a proper newspaper. Actually it is usually reliable
Lost in Translation
according to J.Tripoli, the 'sex life' at UW, is what attracted him to it? though he seems to have a mature attitude towards it TBF
choice quotes:
"...I came to Seattle to visit the UW campus. I was 16 years old, impressionable and naïve about sex in general...I read the entire section cover-to-cover. I decided then and there...I would one day be a part of the Sex Edition."
http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...erFromTheEditor
continued: "...while I doubt that this Sex Edition will cause anyone to move to Seattle — like I did..."
did i link the video of him on the news 'the real' AK? Just to see if he was in that D.Mail article where the pic from that party was posted?
oh soz, totally wrong person, it's a letter from the editor, but says the editor was By Jenna Snavely.
so she's the sex edition editor.
soz!
meman I must be pretty sick to think it is wrong to hold people for 5 years without charge and torture them. One of the blokes who came home today has lost the use of one of his eyes.
Maybe now he can be as blind as the stinking, ignorant Yanks that want the oil for their Hummers and damn anybody who they see as in their way.
PS. I see your moronic Vice-President is not content with just shooting people and has now set fire to his office.
God save Scotland from your Mr. Trump and any other of your degradations. Shame.
Don't bite.....it will drag us down into the quagmire that all these other blog sites end up being. Ignore Please!
UK ash | 12.19.07 - 6:41 pm | # .... You are Not worth the argument...Please go over to the other forum (Disqus)...so I can take a point from you....My last comment to you.......forever
Rhonda I think all the Italian bashing here has already brought everyone down into an American led xenophobic ant of ire.
meman you are ignorant in the true meaning of the word. Like an ostrich.
@ Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 4:34 pm "ANDYT what other Haloscan page are you referring to? Not Steve's correct, but xin was over there? If another blogger, can you post a link?"
Robert, it was one of Steve's. The thread never really got going - just 39 comments. Micha's comment is the last on the thread.
Here's a link to it:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...88471546328686/
@ fran | 12.19.07 - 6:30 pm "...they say defence wants to prove that actually Amanda put all the stuff in a backpack and left the house with that, so that the book was brought back to her house..."
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I think I must have misunderstood the report. I seem to remember, however, the backpack being mentioned before. But I thought the story (RS's story) was that AK left it at his apartment. Does anyone else know/remember anything about this?
@ UK ash | 12.19.07 - 6:41 pm
I don't think this is the place for such comments. As you know, there are many other fora where you can vent your frustrations (say I a British subject).
for reference:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/
pages...in_page_id=1879
In 2006, she rented a house in Greek Row, an area traditionally home to football "jocks" and all-male fraternity houses, where she could also escape the alcohol rules of the university accommodation.
this is the UW daily article (January 23, 2007) about it huh? http://thedaily.washington.edu/
a...uctCodeRevision
Defendant Summary
Court Defendant Number: 1336461
Name Of Record: AMANDA MI KNOX
Aliases: AMANDA MI KNOX
Date Of Birth: 07/09/1987
Language:
Employer:
Case Citations Hearings Defendant Obligations Warrants
Case Number Type Status Filing Date Police Incident Number
202557635 IN CLSE 07/02/2007
AndyT | 11.30.07 - 7:12 pm | #
YES PEOPLE. HIS ARTICLE WAS AND THE UW HAVING TO REVIEW THEIR CONDUCT CODE, ACCORDING TO DATES, WAS IN RELATION TO AK'S PARTAY.
just let me quote tripolis article again:
"“[We’re] addressing safety issues for students,” said ASUW President Cullen White. “[Conduct code expansion] will be addressing serious offenses: physical and sexual assault, stalking, and also quality of life issues: noise complaints, vandalism, public urination.”
AndyT I have found Pincone's recent comments and those it provokes quite an offense to sensibility. I have faith in the Italians to bring about justice in this case, I really don't want to hear lectures on how the American way is best.
I really don't want to hear lectures on how the American way is best. All things considered and especially on a day like today when some uncharged and tortured have been released after 5 years.
Thanks AndyT, I think that's the Halo for the RADAR article update.
What micha was going on about was The Way Things Work in Italy from her perspective as a reident non-Italian, though she didn't say where she was from:
I definitely hope that the US govt. gets involved. Without their intervention...this case will go on and on and on without fruition. Unfortunately, that's the Italian way. They will keep investigating and will arrive at no definitive conclusion. I cannot remember reading a single homicide case in over 4 years (living for the most-part there - in Italy) that concluded in any clarity or justice being served. Blah, blah, blah...On and on it will go...With the facts being splattered and lost along the way until - the media loses interest. This is the Italian way. Read that. Seen it. Have NO faith in it.
micha | 11.23.07 - 1:35 am | #
and semi-reiterating it as the last post:
In keeping with most such cases in Italy, her stories will continue to change in keeping with her lawyers whims. The more convoluted and confused the reports...the better for her defence. In keeping with most such cases in Italy, this will go and on and on without resolution until everything gets so confused that the evidence itself will bring no clear conclusions... Politics and power brokers will ensure that this case is never resolved. The only hope here is if Meredith's family comes to terms with the fact that the Italian's will not find justice for their daughter. Perhaps if UK lawyers and investigators are brought in...then, maybe (but not likely - given how much has gone on) the truth will come out...
micha | 12.01.07 - 10:30 pm | #
But Ash, the two issues are unrelated. And nobody has said that the American way is best (not even Pinecone as far as I recall). I think it's good to be critical of America, but it's also good to be critical of the UK, and Europe. I mean just think of the mess in Praia da Luz !!!
Europe has to smarten up too. For instance, trafficking in people is a pan-European problem, just as big in my view as Guantanamo (in terms of human suffering).
As far as US politics are concerned, my hopes are pinned on Ron Paul.
Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 7:07 pm
Thanks for reposting micha's comments, I had completely forgot about them. Needed the reminder and helps me to see more of what is going on right now (at least what we can gleam from the continuing reports from the Italian media).
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...in3477950.shtml
Jeff Tripoli, a friend of Knox's from the University of Washington told The Early Show co-anchor Hannah Storm that she has been misportrayed in the media as a "party girl."
which is interesting given the article he himself wrote back in january pertaining to AKs party antics....
AndyT thanks mate. I don't think Britian or the EU is perfect at all. This case interests me from the hash implication in it. "I think we can't hold people in jail for a year without charging them with a crime or having evidence against them." seems to present the US as "better" than Italy. My opinion if you like that kind of chat fair enough.
OT - OT - OT!!!
Put no bets down with your local turf accountant, AndyT. Ron is a sentimental favorite among True/Blue Calvin Coolidge-type Republicans, but his other principles (& he has principles!) won't gain traction with the broad range of voters. He is more likely to go third party, and suck votes away from whomever is the Republican candidate. The Democrat side is more of a horse race with the results at the first turn (Iowa caucuses and NH primary) giving the then leader a clear shot at the backstretch. So, while I wouldn't vote for him in a general election, Paul's clearly expressed stand on the Constitution, pro-habeas corpus and anti-torture would lead me to support any efforts of his in the House to get bills out on the latter two issues--both which Bush would veto, using the pernicious Yoo-addington-Cheney interpretation of executive power. WHICH the US Supreme Court declared unconstitutional in the Truman vs Steelworkers case of 1950 or 1951! But Dick Cheney is unused to having to take NO as the final answer. We shall see.
Well, corruption is always possible, as everywhere in the world, including the US, I'd say.
Loz, I don't think the dates fit. Look at the Mail's article; it talks about AK having a summer party (but maybe they got it wrong!!)
The date of the defendent summary is also in the summer 07/02/2007 i.e. July 2.
But keep on researching !
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=18472#62039
by seattleite | 12.19.07 - 10:34 am
Yes. I keep saying what clean up? The cleanup she did on the morning of the 2nd? Judge [b]Judge[/b] But why didn't you become suspicious right away seeing MK's door closed and locked? AK Though she didn't usually closed her door or locked it I knew she was traveling back home that day and just assumed she closed it for that reason not really thinking anything about it anyway. I didn't bother to even try the door so I didn't know it was locked until later. It wasn't until I went into the bathroom and saw the blood that I became concerned and then starting thinking about why I had found the front door open. So I went back to RS's to ask him what he might think. He came back with me and seeing the same thing I saw we tried her door and found it locked. So next after seeing Filomena's room and the broken window we thought call Mez, and call Filomena just to check. Neither answered (or a strange woman answered and scared us)."
"sheesh, why do you keep asking me all these stupid questions, they are so illogical." Judge "oh never mind. We in Italy just like to conjure up drama scenarios to amuse ourselves while investigating murder crimes. We are paid by the government you know, very low pay."
A word on procedures to UK ash
Here in the States, the arrested person has the presumption of being bailed from jail prior to a trial. But setting the bail is up to judge, based on established guidelines developed by that particular court. Any violent crime usually merits a high bail so as to insure the defendant doesn't flee. With the advent of monitoring devices, the $ amounts have come down, but even there, when the actual cash or bonded amount is usually 10% of the set total, that can be hard for people to make, even if what we consider middle-class, especially if they have no fixed assets such as house ownership, etc. Amanda personally has no such assets. Her Dad & Mom do.
If this was taking place in Seattle, Meredith accused of murdering Amanda, the UK counsul would certainly be more involved than the American one is in Perugia, her father would have to come up with the full amount of 10% of whatever, he'd also have to find a place for her to live locally, and she'd have to surrender her passport, and wear an ankle tracer to boot. But all this comes AFTER she would be charged. Most jurisdictions have only 2 to 5 days to do so after the arrest. Now, if she couldn't make the bail amount, then she'd sit in jail until she could or until trial. But she would be charged, not be in this judicial limbo as are the 3 suspects in Perugia.
And while in jail or otherwise, her court-appointed lawyer would insist that she have no discussions with investigating detectives without said lawyers presence. (Her right under our 5th Amendment.) Most lawyers by this point have advised their clients to STFU period. So to "our" non-Italian eyes, these on-going investigatory re-interviews seem only to be "legal traps" conductd by ILE. As Amanda does have the right under EU to refuse to answer questions, and has so exercised it in part, I'd recommend that she now exercise it totally.
[Some one posted a link with text on the EU Rights Document. Can someone re-find it and either link it here or repost it here?]
Regarding crimes like a murder, it is usual to have a lot of blah blah on the media but no reported corruption (except some known cases of the past)
What Micha is perceiving is caused by some facts:
1) justice is slow in Italy, because there are three degrees of judgement and consequently delays of proceedings; so that you can hear about trials years after the facts, when everything is more difficult to evaluate. there are too many discounts on penalties
2) A lot of political and terror crimes of the past (70s, 80s) like the bombing of Bologna train station haven't been cleared to the public and that is a shame
3) In the past in the South of Italy people didn't want to recognize there was a Mafia issue; there were no big trials concerning about Mafia until 80s. Still now the Mafia is just a giant system which sustain economy and people that it is difficult to go against it
4) there have been so many scandals concerning the ruling class in many ways so that common people is always suspecting something wrong is going on
5) Berlusconi has worked to free himself of charges and he has been succesful in doing that through new laws; some judges hava been politically manipulating the charges against him anyway
sorry "Clarified", not "cleared"
I have to go now: goodnight!
fran WELL CORRUPTION IS UNIVERSAL --> But can you imagine an Italian senior area prosecutor resigning office after having to admit to have an affair with a former employee who was know suing him over harrassment? I don't think so!! But the Att.-Gen of the state Kansas just did that, a person elected statewide too, though its more over the charges of favoritism in employment than over the sex. (Both parties were married). As he said in his resignation statement, "I've held people to high standards and I must hold myself to them too." (I can name about 5 people at the Topeka Women's Prison who are shedding no tears over his comeuppance.)
Actually, in Italy, I suspect the matters of favoritism and sex would be grounds to say, why he's just doing his job!! (but then he would have been appointed to the job, rather than elected. There's a lot to be said for electing more judicial officials & we here in the US do tend to like to have more & more elections, even down to, yes, dog-catchers still in places.)
Pre-trial detention in Spain
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/...5/...spain0105/
9.htm
Pre-trial detention in Germany
http://www.germanlawjournal.com/...om/
...print.php? id=56
House of Lords report on pre-trial detention
http://www.publications.parliame...145/ 7050902.htm
Pre-trial detention in Eastern Europe
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=c...=c...n&ct=clnk&
cd=10
Pre-trial detention as regards EU citizens in other EU member states
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressRele......nce=MEMO/06/
314
Sorry can't find anything on pre-trial detention in Italy.
AndyT | 12.19.07 - 7:53 pm | #
Sorry, something seems to have gone wrong, will try to post links again
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/...spain0105/
9.htm
http://www.germanlawjournal.com/...print.php?
id=56
http://www.publications.parliame...145/
7050902.htm
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=c...n&ct=clnk&
cd=10
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressRele...nce=MEMO/06/
314
Thanks AndyT - and here's a link to a very recent (Dec 6 2007) blogger's outline of where a person's right to remain silent stands within the EU & the UK with a glance at Oz and the US: http://catallaxyfiles.com/?p=3314
His next to last paragraph:
However, there is no doubt that Parliament explicitly intended to reverse the onus in the Terrorism Act, allocating a persuasive burden to the accused. The Court vitiated this clear intent on the part of the legislature in a species of judicial legislation unusual in a jurisdiction where parliament is so thoroughly supreme. In a sense, European Union instruments are now being used as a de-facto written constitution, allowing a power of review to the judiciary more familiar to North Americans and Australians, with their written constitutions.
Robert M.
I think the differences between the US and Italian system as far as the pre-trial phase is concerned are not as big as you make them sound, and are more formal (the formal charge) than substantial.
The suspects have been heard by a judge four days after their arrest, and the judge has determined there is enough evidence against them to keep them in jail. Another judge has heard them a few weeks later. Their lawyers are always present during the interrogations, and under italian law (not just EU) they have a right to remain silent. If at some point the defence brought enough exculpatory evidence before the judge, they would be released.
In the US, they would have been charged and a high bail would be set, so they would be in jail, and like in the Italian system the charges could be dismissed later.
The only substantial difference is that the whole process is usually slower in Italy.
Hey Gang! Look what I found. Someone blogging about Crime IN Seattle. Here's the link to his/her top-rated AmaNda story via Google:
SEATTLE CRIME BLOG
http://www.seattlecrimeblog.com/...a-knox-suspect/
then hit home page to see a performance of "Amanda Knox is buring". After that, go down to first real Knox story, hit the amanda knox tag link and you'll get all his stories. His color pics are great and the crime-scene photo, with the items numbered, is also, a sis Rudy's You-tube, etc. Succinct and well done. Entries have comments but I haven't had timt eo rea them. Just reporting another take on this story but this one from Seattle.
eric while the similarities are there, the ability to hold a person for an extended limit without bail is a given in law (up to a year). There's is in fact, no bail procedure as such in Italian law. And first judge's review, while it includes the ability to release the person, is clearly designed to allow more investigatory activity by BOTH the LE personnel AND the judge. At both hearings, the judges were active investigators, as well as procedural reviewers. (They did have to prepare written reports as to why they made their no-release decisions, which few if any US judges are required to do.)
I would argue that it is both stylistically different as well as conceptually different. A person's right to be free is "supposed" under the bail system, while a person's right to be detained by his goverment is what is "supposed" under the Italian system. [This is where AndyT's support for Ron Paul comes in; such a detention system for a citizen is abhorent to a person like Paul who's beliefs are derived from the extreme English freedom tradition that is a major component of the U S Constitution.]
Some interesting takes above and from the previous thread. Curious, has anyone come to the conclusion that Amanda Knox is at least guilty for bringing into Meredith's world, this person Rudy Guede? Amanda knows right from wrong. It was wrong for her to not immediately contact the police when the moment of WRONG happened. Her upbringing taught her this. She knows right from wrong and though she is 20, she is behaving as a child and it is time for her mother to step in! Not the lawyers, not the prison chaplain and not the Italian police. Her mother knows how to handle her and that is why her mother is staying there. Getting to the truth is the goal.
Perugia, Dec.19 - The Perugia Review Court explains, through an 18-page document, why it rejected the appeal of Rudy Hermann Guede's lawyers to have him released from prison. The judges (Marco Battistacci, Maria Rosaria Monaco, Lidia Brutti) that support the prosecution's theory (as happened with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito), aside from analysing the scientific evidence and the investigation acts, claim that the papers "directly link the people under investigation and their presence in the house, hence with the deadly aggression on Meredith, consistently with the factual reconstruction that envisages the access of several people to that house with no need to break doors open, and by consent of someone already in the house". Consistently with the investigators' viewpoint, after more than a month of investigations, even the Review Court agrees on the fact that "several people were in the house when Meredith was killed, and that everyone fled after the tragic epilogue".
This article from ATI dated 12.19.07 states everyone fled after the tragic epilogue. Or does it imply that no one stuck around to clean up. Then why have other media reports of the judges review insisted there was a cleanup? and when? This continues to be nothing less than the poorest of journalistic reporting all so the editor can cram into the smallest space as possible while they maintain there personal biases.
Really! Why waste strokes on the presumption of the obvious. ~After they killed her, everyone fled~. Quite a summary supposition on the part of the prosecution. What would be the alternative to report. They hung around smoking joints and laughing while they looked for bleach, moved the body, ransacked another bedroom and broke a window in it, argued with loud voices up to 2:00 am, stopped by a toilet and took a shit, and cleaned another bedroom, that had clothes, books and papers scattered around, thoroughly with bleach AND then finally dripped blood around in the other bathroom, some of their own.
Oh, and then they "fled" running? Which way is it REPORTERS? Your way, the prosecutors' theory way you supposedly report, or the hard forensic evidence way, all other biases of the circumstantial held at bay of open mindedness?
Italian justice may be slow, justice should never rush to judgment, but Italian media not only rush to judgment, they adjudicate to all but the pronouncement of sentence and that "sucks". Shame on their maliciousness and salaciousness.
Well then, of course, since the leaks are coming from the prosecutors and judges offices, by default and necessity the bias reflected by the media must be the bias reflected by the former.
Also note in reports that RS father is appears to be doing a real good job of countering this bias by pointing out not only the inconsistencies in prosecutors questioning but their possibly incompetent analysis of forensic and circumstantial evidence to support their suppositions and their own contradictions. I kind of like the guy. He and his lawyers are sharp. I wish AK father was as sharp and I worry about her legal representation.
Do not take this as a bias of my own supporting RS and AK innocence. I believe in the legal philosophy of "innocent until proven guilty". My only bias is to keeping an open mind.
But either way or both, the real problem here for us is we now have enough reported evidence that completely contradicts other reported evidence, both circumstantial and forensic, that we no longer can even begin to honestly and with open mindedness build a theory ourselves that we can even narrow down to some agreement let alone support in agreement. It is also very clear that many here have drawn their conclusions of RS and AK involvement and guilt of some level or another based on their own developed images of the suspects characters (with none personally knowing them or their families and true histories)and the circumstantial evidence raised by prosecutors questions based on on the latter's theories; and not on any hard core forensic evidence (as in the case of RG).
To do so is the antithesis of impartiality and a 'rush to judgment'. But this is not a personal attack on any of my fellow posters here. Your thoughts, ideas and critical thinking are all valid and worthy not only of respect, but careful consideration. They are, however, not worthy of solid impartial conclusions at this point.
My attack is upon the journalistic standards (completely non-existent) in the reporters on the scene and this case. They are merely celebrity actors themselves, not reporters, acting out a self subscribing screen play. My point is where is the reporter digging for the real fact (or not) that ILE have a hand and finger prints lift from MK facial tissue that matches AK finger tips. Where is the real fact that ILE have a shoe print thread image of the sole thread on a shoe owned, worn previously and found in the possession of RS. And does ILE have and possess a murder weapon that clearly shows through forensic evidence it is the murder weapon (DNA, blood match of the victim, fingerprints of a suspect).
Dig, find, analyze, report the facts.
Or report the suppositions with critical analysis, like we are doing here if you can't get to those facts.
Neither is not happening. Very regretful.
Neither is happening. Very regretful.
Corrine,
Again, I'm amused. If you knew me better you'd know I don't "plant" anything. I come right out and say it. And I use my real name and real identity, unlike so many others.
Now, am I perfect? No. When I say something that's incorrect or misinterpreted (ala yesterday), I go back and correct it.
You can read my explanation in the comments section of my blog. It wearies me to repeat myself.
I've said I consider Ms. Knox is innocent until proven guilty. If you interpret that as being part of her fan club (didn't know she had one),so be it. I am a fan of the American system, never more so than now.
I think we can all agree that the police and the press have been abysmal in this case. Every day a new theory, every day a new fact.
You sound like an intelligent person. I hope you'll revisit my blog with a more open attitude. I'm always willing to listen to what you have to say.
P.S. I'm flattered that you think Xin should be afraid of me. He doesn't seem like the timid sort.
Here's the story I quoted. Disgusting, no? http://tinyurl.com/3ct67k
I admire this reporter's work: Really? Some edited out to shorten post. See full at: http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
..._119163883.html
"Perugia, December 19 - Investigators are convinced that they have identified most, if not all, of the people responsible for last month's murder of a British exchange student here but are still at a loss as to the motive of the crime."
What happened to the sex game and/or stolen money confrontation motive theories you previously reported, reporters? If not all? How solid is all this if they are still wondering what all means?
"Although investigators are in the dark in regards to the motive, they said the forensic evidence they have gathered against the three suspects is rock solid."
Note the words "rock solid forensic evidence." Now read the article with a keen eye and mind and find any rock solid forensic evidence reported. Dare you to find it except for that against RG which I ignore here.
"In an 18-page report released on Wednesday, police said their investigation and the evidence ''proved a direct relationship between the suspects and the victim and the presence of the suspects in the apartment at the time of the attack on Meredith''."
Coyotewaits is waiting for the rock solid evidence to be reported here.
"The report also said that the crime had been committed by ''two or more people who had access to the apartment and thus did not need to break in''".
Hmmh? This is new, yes? Or just journalistic exaggeration. Two or more. Let's see: AK had access, that's one. RS? No he didn't have a key, can't be two. RG? He had a key? maybe he's number two cause AK just gave him a key and told him to stop by her bedroom when ever he felt like it.
Or is it that MK let someone in that didn't have a key? Are any of us going to believe this report with "two or more?" What it really means is that two or more people "were given access" to the apartment". Then write it that way, who ever wrote it, meaning the judge. Yes I am splitting hairs, but hairs are important in a murder case like this. Pun intended, because I want to see the rock solid evidence about the hair in MK hand.
"Police are convinced that Knox and Sollecito were the ones who tried to thoroughly clean the scene of the crime, to the point that only one of Knox's fingerprints had been found in an apartment where she had lived for months."
This is circumstantial evidence, reporter or judge. Shame on you. You should know better if you were trained in crimnal justice. Too bad you haven't demonstrated rock solid forensic evidence such as AK finger prints on MK facial tissue; RS finger prints on the handle of a knife that has MK blood and DNA on the blade; etc. Poor Rudy!
"This based on the fact that two empty bottles of bleach were found in Sollecito's apartment which his maid told police were not the same brand she always used there."
Oh great! Here's some really rock solid?.....whoops. just more circumstantial evidence. Let's keep moving, because you know, it is possible and many times persons are convicted of murder based solely on circumstantial evidence. (see my off topic post coming below).
"Police also found a large kitchen knife in Sollecito's kitchen which had the victim's DNA on the blade and Knox's DNA on the handle."
Now this is forensic evidence, yes. But is it the murder weapon? Where is the forensic evidence that it is the murder weapon. I hope they have it, because RS lawyers and father says they have evidence it isn't the murder weapon and that it is circumstantial evidence. Still open to question, not what I call rock solid yet.
"Knox's blood was also found in the bathroom she shared with the victim which police suspect was left from a nosebleed after the apartment was cleaned, indicating she was there after the murder."
This is completely circumstantial. It was her personal bathroom. Why is it not possible that her blood was left there earlier in the afternoon. She and RS both said they were there from around 13:00 to 17-18:00 hours? And why haven't they found any more of her blood or a wound on her somewhere, like RG said he had. Oh, I know, they said it could have been AK had a nose bleed. Hello!, listen up ILE theorists. But you have to give ILE credit. They are questioning RS and AK hard about this circumstantial evidence to crack a clue from then to find more.....what? Rock solid forensic evidence! Yes, and their revisit to the cs brought us another chapter in the Harry Potter adventure and a shoe scruffy postcard. Coyotewaits is still waiting on reports of rock solid forensic evidence to be reported.
"An examination of Sollecito's computer revealed that it had not been used just before and after the estimated time of death, from 9pm to 2am on the night between November 1 and 2, thus contradicting the student's claim that he had been working alone on his thesis that night."
Hmmm again. Just circumstantial, and based on suspects statements. Probably not admissible in court (well maybe in Italian courts, I dunno). Let's see. Now they watched a movie, two hours? Then they made love (which RS forgot), 5 seconds for RS, 1 hour for AK.
Then they fixed a nice fish dinner and worked slowly since they were stoned. 2 hours. Except for RS's 59 minutes and 55 seconds, I get 5 hrs. He fell asleep, forgot.
"Police also have a footprint left in Kercher's blood which matched the size and make of sneakers owned by Sollecito."
Good, close to rock solid, bet OJ's defense team could blow this evidence out of the water. But do they have this evidence or not? Weird that part of the reason they went back to the cs Tuesday was to look at this print again.
"The evidence against Guede,"
is rock solid forensic evidence, poor sucker. Was he framed?
Conclusion to this report (article). 1) They have little if any rock solid forensics against AK and RS that has been made public. Maybe they have and are not yet saying. But with all the leaks, how do they control some but not all. They need a lot more in an American court or RS * AK both walk with good legal defense (what say in Italian court?).
2) They have excellent circumstantial evidence but if a jury presented with it only and without a plausible motive it won't cut it. And the article here says they are "at a loss for a motive." This is why I have emphasized the continued interrogation of the suspects. LE wants more contradictions to find more forensics. As RobertM, seattleite and I have said why don't they STFU.
So I have one question left for the reporters. If the prosecutors say they have "rock solid evidence" does that mean we are soon to have charges filed and a trial start date scheduled? I'll give anyone odds right now they are not. Any takers? Odds include handicap for previous LE statement made four weeks ago that is was "case closed".
Please also see my OT post to follow about murder cases solved and so called guilty persons convicted based slowly on circumstantial evidence and forcefully extracted confessions of contradicted statements from the convicted suspect.
ann arbor oh, yes, that "who could Rudy be more scared of then the police"Robert M. | 12.19.07 - 5:45 pm
Ooooh. Sorry RobertM. Took the eveningn off for family and a little basketball. And I admit, I got a little caught in limbo between the disqus and haloscan for a bit there. Glad we've found a home for now. I don't like to repeat--its good when we can keep the discussion fresh....Just cant figure why, if there is someone else involved, perhaps the catalyst for the murder, why someone doesn't name him.
Perhaps Pinecone has it right and its just been Rudy all along.
Aching for some fresh news. Seems as though the lawyers have seiaed control, and its much harder to trust the evidence that is being released.
Sorry, should have signed that ann arbor.
OT)) Yesterday authorities in Arkansas USA said they have new evidence that exonerates three teenage males (then 17-1
who were convicted in a early 1990's murder of three 8 year old boys in a described as satanic ritual murder in West Memphis, Arkansas. Today one of those teenagers, now 33 years old, still sits on death row. He is to interviewed tomorrow night on the Larry King show in the USA.
I only have vague memories of this case, so please don't hold my memory to the actual facts. I am sure details can be found with google. But the essence was they were convicted solely on circumstantial evidence based around their love for heavy metal rock music, their looks, interest in playing dungeons & dragons and proximately to the crime. There was no forensic evidence, let alone rock solid evidence presented by the prosecution against the teenagers.
For a while the step father of one of children was suspected but he had a "rock solid" alibi. A friend who testified the step father was with him at the time of the murder and couldn't have been at the murder scene for hours before, during and after the TOD. At the time they only had circumstantial evidence against the step father also.
Well now a cold case with convictions, including the death penalty (editorial: by ignorant jurors, and nefarious elected public prosecutors),
has been reopened and the victims preserved tissues in their murder kit have been examined with the new DNA and other microscopic analytical techniques. The result: Hairs, more than one, found on or near the children at the murder scene match that of the step father. Wow! Really. Whoa now! I said hairs not hair. Other hair[s] match the friend who provided the step father the alibi.
So lets hear a cheer for circumstantial evidence that convinces even the best and the brightest (here?) that it should count as "rock solid" evidence for determining guilt.
Sixteen years out of the lives of three innocent teenagers who loved their heavy metal musical artists.
How many times have you heard this story in the last few years, especially in the USA where not only cold cases are being reopened for analysis, but where convicted persons who were always claiming their innocence are being exonerated by new FORENSIC technology.
Over zealous public prosecutors who are elected? RobertM listen up. I disagree with your thoughts that electing criminal States Attorneys and District Attorneys is better than appointing them. Why do we have to have so many special prosecutors appointed in the USA because politically no one trusts elected prosecutors. We both elect and appoint judges here in the USA and I think the balance is probably the best we can find, certainly not perfect.
But public prosecutors that are elected only and can't be recalled except through the next election? I really have my doubts and concern when it comes to both criminal and political civil crimes.
What say all? Do we have a "cheer" for circumstantial evidence for convicting those we think guilty by what we hear from the so called fourth estate?
"then 17 to 18 who", number coding produced a 'cool face' accidentally.
Seems as though the lawyers have seiaed control, and its much harder to trust the evidence that is being released.
a2 | 12.19.07 - 11:52 pm
I find it easier to accept evidence which is presented by the defense lawyers, at least AK's and RS's. They are not gossip mongers like the judges and prosecution and I think they are more likely to be concerned with legal ethics, if there is such a thing in that country.
Rudy's attorneys have my sympathy because they've been dealt a losing hand. I don't see a strategy that could work for them. Maybe an insanity plea?
Extracted From Times Online December 19, 2007
"The new search also discovered a footprint belonging to Ms Knox on a postcard found on the floor of the room used by one of the Italian flatmates (absent at the time of the murder), where the window had been broken. Police suspect the window was smashed to simulate a break in. Ms Knox has sworn in testimony that she did not enter the room in question."
RobertM has already, eloquently and in his most erudite articulations, covered this subject added to the case today: "the postcard".
I just want to add my defense scenario to this additional piece of lucy-gucy circumstantial evidence.
~"Today, defense attorneys for Amanda Knox, age 20, suspected in the brutal murder of her University of the Foreigners class and roommate in Perugia, Italy, notified prosecutors in writing and reporters in a public press conference, that the recently discovered postcard that authorities had found in the room of another flat mate upon a re-examination of the house where the crime took place; and which postcard had an imprint of a shoe sole that was often wore by Ms. Knox, was in fact her footprint.
But it disdained as "ridiculous and spurious" the prosecutor's assertion that such a finding indicated that she was present in that room at the time the murder was committed or in the after hours thereof.
The legal defense team pointed out that Ms. Knox had in fact entered the room with her boy friend, one Raffaele Sollecito (24), a student at The University of Perugia, when she had enjoin him to accompany her to inspect the flat after she had been there alone within an hour before and found suspicious and concerning appearance that something wasn't right at her home.
This included finding blood splatterings in the bathroom she shared with her roommate who was the murder victim and the fact that their main house door had been opened and unlocked when she had previously returned to her flat after spending the entire prior evening and early morning at Mr. Sollecito's house.
Ms. Knox, upon returning with Mr. Sollecito, age 24, did with him, examine the entire household, entering all the rooms, including the room where the post card was found and where they found same room in disarray and with a open window with broken pane glass on the floor. The only room they did not examine and couldn't access was the room the victim was subsequently found in, because they found the door to that room locked, something that Ms. Knox noted to her boy friend was highly unusual for her roommate. At that time, being commonly concerned they each attempted to call both the victim and the third roommate to ascertain they were OK. Upon getting no answers they immediately left the house to go outside and call authorities as to their concerns. It was outside as they were doing so that they encountered other authorities just arriving inquiring about the cell phones of each the victim and the third roommate being found together that very same morning and trying to return them, possibly stolen.
This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
Extracted From Times Online December 19, 2007
"La Stampa said that while, in theory, Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito could have brought the book with them on the morning of November 2, when they arrived at the cottage to find — by their own account — Ms Kercher's bedroom door locked and a window smashed, this was unlikely."
F--k, the great London Times cannot even spend the money for their own correspondent who would speak Italian to investigate their country's citizens' interest (re: Meredith Kercher's and family's home country and citizenship rights)in justice for the victim. They, the Times, for financial expediency are reduced to associative reporting from the Italian La Stampa. So much for the real caring of British media to support truth and reconciliation.
Extracted From Times Online December 19, 2007
"Police also removed “bloodstained items of clothing” apparently overlooked in previous searches. Defence lawyers were not allowed to attend the search but instead watched it on closed-circuit television from a police van outside the cottage"
Those darn Harry Potter wizards have been hiding evidence from the ILE forensic investigators. Otherwise how could they have missed "bloodstained items of clothing" at their first very thorough forensic investigation.
Or maybe the blood and bleach bacteria just moved the blood from the floor with the shoe print to the clothing with which they really wanted to feast upon.
So much for the real caring of British media to support truth and reconciliation.
coyotewaits | 12.20.07 - 1:55 am |
I'm right there with you, CW. It's alarming that popular opinion can be shaped so easily. It's like they're choosing up sides for a tug of war. Everyone wants to be on the same side as the majority. Skeptics likely get shunned.
The newspapers write for the majority. If it's decided there's no evidence against AK or RS, the papers will hint at bribes or political persuasion by their wealthy parents.
It's been hinted at, as the conspiracy case dies from lack of hard evidence.
You know there is alot of talk about lack of objectivity among newspapers and tabloids and the bungling of the Italian policae.However Pinecone, the more you post the more I feel that you are desperate to vindicate and extonerate Amanda as much as some posters want to crucify her...Why is that?
ah sorry lol. that article he wrote, wasn't in relation? to AKs party/house/fine. Got the US/UK dates mixed up!
from fran | 12.19.07 - 11:07 am: in reply to RobertM, I guess, but I will take the call myself:
"I am not an expert about judiciary issues but your criticism of the way of dealing of scientific Police in Italy is not completely correct. Italian Forensic Police (RIS, ERT in some cases) is more efficient than in other countries, including the US, as far as we know from statistics."
Please fran, what statistics? Sources please. Opinions of mathematically gathered data and statistical analysis and counterpoint review by peers as to what the data and analysis means or does not mean. Forensic talent and skills measured within nation states for comparison purposes. What should I put into my google engine to find out.
But I will agree with you on the level of opinion only that the USA's well known FBI, CIA, DEA, TSA, ICE, etc., are a bunch of mostly incompetent ladder climbers though with some dedicated agents.
"From what I know, people can be detained in prison only in case of crimes which have a punishment higher than four years".
I recall from a previous poster from Italy confirming this as fact. They said five years, but thanks for the confirmation, makes sense.
"The issue regarding cautelary custody (custodia cautelare) begins to be dangerous if the Police or the media system are or become biased. There has been a long debate going on in Italy regarding privacy but from what I see the only prevention obtained regards phone calls and sms tapping."
I am pleased to hear that fran, and your assessment of such. But even here in the USA it is the same attitudes. If there is a new technology that can undercover the nefarious social behavior of citizens, those same citizens rise up in civil protest as to their privacy being violated. Today, no one would object to fingerprint technology. Yet at the turn of the 19th - 20th century citizens and civil rights apologists rose up in protest at this new technology. Now citizens begin to accept cell phone tracing technology as they see criminal after criminal tripped up by this technology, while politicians debate "privacy rights" over a socially state agreed public radio spectrum technology. The real debate has moved far ahead of the politicians. It is DNA individual identification technology now to be protested.
OT))Lets identify each new human being born by subscribing in records their individual DNA code upon birth. Check points socially and legally implemented to proscribe any discrimination based on certain characteristics on the chromosomes of each individual for skin color, intelligence quotients, disease probability, the all human rights philosophy of western enlightenment, etc.
But for identity, that is who you are and will always be. A substitute for our long historically held cultural requirements world and time wise for identity as in name, social citizen number, birth certificates, facial photograph (passports) all which can today be altered and ascribed a new identity through identity theft of assigned numbers, cosmetic surgery to the photograph, and easy name and historical record change.
Why are citizens so outrageous about DNA identity transcription to social public records, except for those already convicted of a public crime (oh, that is ok, because those guys are already known as bad guys). It is because it is a new technology that is always feared by the uninformed and unwilling to be educated masses, who fear any social and political change. (Remember the invention of the printing press. Of course you don't unless you are a historian. You take it for granted. But it was a technology that the public, defined as the church authority at the time, insisted must be proscribed forever).
I guarantee within 50 years from now DNA identity upon birth will be SOP for almost all social programs that are to the benefit of human aspirations and life benefits, politically determined. The only threat is fear and fear itself in the embrace of ignorance.
"I suppose the media leaking can become an useful method for lawyers to influence the public opinion."
I would hope so since the same leaking by the public prosecutors leads to influencing the public opinion.
"All in all, the Italian system is far too slow and sometimes not harsh enough when dealing with penalties, in my opinion."
Thanks for your opinion and insight about Italy and its legal systems. Those of us outside Italy need to hear such opinions from those living at home there. I really appreciate that.
My opinion about the USA: It is as imperfect as Italy's in its own way. There is always a rush to judgment here. There is corruption in the system to railroad minorities into prison for failure of juries to understand the discrimination inherent in rushes to judgment and the abusive nature of LE to solve crimes or be demoted, or at least not promoted, etc.
It is imho, all about human nature and its crying need to evolve into homo-rationalis from homo-sapien. It can't happen soon enough for me, after I am long gone.
Pinecone | 12.20.07 - 2:20 am
"I'm right there with you, CW. It's alarming that popular opinion can be shaped so easily. It's like they're choosing up sides for a tug of war. Everyone wants to be on the same side as the majority. Skeptics likely get shunned.
The newspapers write for the majority. If it's decided there's no evidence against AK or RS, the papers will hint at bribes or political persuasion by their wealthy parents.
It's been hinted at, as the conspiracy case dies from lack of hard evidence."
-------------------
Really, Pinecone! It is me who is right there with you not vice versa. Remember when I bought into believing that the ILE was right on top of this case and I accepted all this media hubris. I became arrogant when I heard the ILE claim "case closed" and offer my theory as cased solved with all the contributions of great analysis provided here by posters. Arrogance! Hey I started handing out medals. OK. I can go overboard in my own ego to impress.
But the real "right with you" came from you to me. Why was this "idiot" poster pinecone thinking outside the box. Well pinecone made me think again and lower my arrogance quotient enough to get me back on track with rational analysis and critical thinking. Where I should be with humility.
Thanks for showing up and reminding me.
from bcpl's contributed link at
Results from Reuters concerning the crime:
http://www.reuters.com/article/
w...931807120071219
bpcl | 12.19.07 - 4:16 pm
"Judge Maurizio Bufali wrote in a document confirming Guede's arrest that his testimony -- in which he claimed to have scuffled with an unidentified killer just after Kercher was stabbed -- was "full of decisive falsehoods".
What is this a new judge? "Judge Maurizio Bufali." Do they rotate judges. Where do they get the resources to have so many judges adjudicate evidence for determining detention. Wow! What a great system. Judges to cross check other judges. I like that.
Help fran? What is going on here.
No complaint here, it is just that judges in the USA are so overloaded that they can hardly, if at all, really think more than 5 minutes about a case when determining a bail setting for an arrested suspect. If only we could have a system where a second judge adjudicated a first judges considerations. It would be like an appeal without an appeal having ever to be filed.
Am I missing something here or is this a really good procedure?
hi everybody--
cw:
that does this mean? please, the simple version--it's late.
from above; ref the Times OL:
This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
coyotewaits
Loz, I don't think the dates fit. Look at the Mail's article; it talks about AK having a summer party (but maybe they got it wrong!!)
The date of the defendent summary is also in the summer 07/02/2007 i.e. July 2. But keep on researching !
AndyT | 12.19.07 - 7:32 pm | #
difference between UK/US date format. whoops. It seems that on Greek Row, it's normal to tie up your peers, st up an assault on them. alot of it doesn't get reported. like, one such incident was only reported because the house caught fire after they duct-taped the victim. I don't even know what sorority she was in.
ak's sorority that is.
from above:I admire this reporter's work: Really? Some edited out to shorten post. See full at: http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/ ..._119163883.html
-------ANSA is the Italian news service that is like Associated Press or Reuters. It is a subscription wire/news service with customers being the papers and electronic media in their region.
Xin, try and copy that link again. Instead of selecting it and doing Control-C (if that's what you did), try to hover over it, right click, and copy using the little menu window that pops up. That way the full URL will get pasted and not "start...end".
Also,playing catch-up, if RS's shoe print is so degraded, how did the bunch pick up a star-pattern in blood from his shoe just today that wasnot so badly degraded? Maybe I missed something here.
Ash your knee-jerk criticisms of the US are seriously misplaced. The clumsiness of Cheney, the gas-hog Hummers, the Trumps, the Britneys are just NOTHING to worry about. CHeney is so much more dangerous than you can get your little head around. The Hummers are not what's going on about oil, Trump is a cartoon character. There are some very dangerous and long-reaching political developments that YOUR country and OURS have put over (in the works for maybe a hundred years in the case of oil) that could lead to a new level of world suffering the likes of which hasn't been seen. Your complaints are remarkably banal. It's like we're drunk in a bar political talk. Idiotic. No offense. There are plenty of smart Brits and Americans that can see quite clearly that the path ahead is pretty fucking risky.
OK==thanks mucho, Kerm. If it doesn't work, maybe you can email a jpeg. I've tried to save it a few ways and it only is html.can't get to a jpeg.
TY- I hope to put up a slide show tomorrow--street murals in LA of the Virgin of Guadalupe (I've worked on this for quite a while. and a bunch more news links at the blog.
I didn't explain myself well. It has nothing to do with a jpeg.
Try something else, go to the news article itself (on the browser web page), and copy the perhaps long URL from there (by whatever method), then paste here in the blog, and we should be able to click it.
If not, I'll trust you that the article was interesting!
Oh. that link just posted? Not my link; I copied it from Coyote above. I am a tinyurl.com fan.
And, sorry, I was referring to the knife pic you posted yesterday, I tried to load it onto the blog so many times last night, will try some more tomorrow. No go.
Here's the longer link posted earlier by CW..nothing so new really.
http://www.ansa.it/site/notizie/
..._119163883.html
Ref. xin | 12.20.07 - 5:00 am |
Ah .... Hablando se entiende la gente.
1. Okay, your link (CW's) works.
2. Ref my knife image, first of all a question: Although you can't load it on your blog, can you visualise it on your screen when you click on the freehosting.net link?
http://www.ansa.it/opencms/
expor...l_38205306.html
Another article from Ansa
Returning to the pre-trial detention debate, I think in many continental European countries, it's a significant "instrument" in the fight against crime (of course, nobody will say this outright).
The possibility of being locked away for weeks or months (even if innocent) means that people have a real interest in "cooperating" with law enforcement, or - even better - not doing anything that might even risk "contact" with LE. [I've been told "Avoid criminals and avoid the police - and you'll be okay."]
And in more than 10 years, I've only ever spoken to a LE officer once, when I was detained for 2.5 hours in a police van because I had no identification on my person (I was jogging in the park).
xin | 12.20.07 - 4:26 am posted:
that does this mean? please, the simple version--it's late.
"This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
coyotewaits"
-------------------------------
Hi xin,
It means I am so disgusted with worldwide media but even more so the European media, and further so the Italian media that I decided to become my own correspondent and reporter.
I can weave fantasies based on rumor and innuendos amongst the best of the so called professionals of the fourth estate today. Did I fool you into thinking that someone was reporting something from somewhere other than my own fantasies.
Well if I did, then I have made my point. However, I do think my word selection was better than anything you could get out of an editor from the London times.
Be careful Coyote
http://www.lby3.com/archives/872
this is not the place to try to spin your BS as some sort of unneeded demonstration.
there is NOTHING you can tell me about the media, but your post tells me plenty about you.
froggy
yes i see the knife all the ways on the imagedump url, and via the source url--couldn't link to the same graphic at another site either. just won't grab.
Xin, since I can't come up with a fast explanation on the image linking problem, my suggestion ref. the knife photo is to save it to your computer, then post it the same way you have posted other images on your blog, OR having saved it to your computer, upload it again to www.freeimagehosting.net and use the new link.
Sorry, can't think of anything better than that.
CW,
I suppose this Bufali is a main judge. Matteini is a gip, i.e. a "judge for preliminary investigations"
CW,
Sorry
Regarding statistics over scientific police I am afraid it is something I have heard and watched on TV recently and I cannot remember the source
http://www.matrix.mediaset.it/in....it/
index.shtml
Matrix again on the murder
CW,
judges are overloaded with work in Italy too.. I didn't imagine it was the same in the US
I have just watched a bit of Matrix. They have shown all the evidence signed by letters. They have shown a small stone in Filomena's room, used to break the window.
Fran...also RS's dad plays down the 'prick' story, says he can't understand why his son would've taken that knife to Meredith's house to cook...since they had 14 knives there.
RS's team play up the missing footprint story and also say there cannot be a little star if there is no footprint. Maresca, the Kercher's lawyer, found common ground however when he said that the original analysis/photos of the footprint will be used during the trial.
AK's blood found on the biday in the smaller bathroom was 'mixed' with Meredith's.
AK's blood 'mixed' with MK's? Ummm, simultaneous nosebleeds! If true, this could be important.
nowo | 12.20.07 - 9:10 am "AK's blood 'mixed' with MK's? Ummm, simultaneous nosebleeds! .."
I think it was Pinecone who told us that women living together tend to have menses at the same time, simultaneously.
http://tinyurl.com/3373xt
This is Porta Porta from Monday. Go to page 2 and click on Amanda in Lacrime. You can see RG's psychologist, RS's criminologist (not made clear) an Italian judge, Mr Biscuits(sitting in the audience) and the waspish Vespa all shouting at each other. Somebody was talking about a farce earlier...what the hell did you mean?!
Lots of visual stuff that may interst some of you...the Vespa simulating the(over the shoulder) attack on RG...as Biscuits simulates his clients defence is the kind of quality we've come to expect.
Let's try and distinguish between what ILE has leaked, what the lawyers are saying and what the press is reporting...I don't think this is beyond us.
Also, the lawyers have read all the judge's reports, in particular, the 40pager...we haven't. Their cards are pretty much on the table but we can't see them.
The judge on this show says it will be very difficult for the lawyers to 'dismantle' these bail reviews.
Also, the lawyers have read all the judge's reports, in particular, the 40pager...we haven't.
We haven't seen the 18 pager from Rudy's hearing either but alas posters freak out about the little bits they glean from web sites that they themselves defame and discredit.
If we all stopped paying attention the salacious reports and TV spots would all fade away. We could just wait for trial.
http://tinyurl.com/37xqmj
Amanda in Lacrime.
Italian woman | Homepage | 12.19.07 - 11:32 pm | #
--Does someone have her blog link. I forget where it was.
Thanks Anon for the link to the PortaPorta show; the initial cough of the criminologist Franceso Bruno (a descendent of Giordano??) says more than a thousand words
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 8:47 am | #
And where is this story you refer to that RS dad plays down the knife pricking MK?
Man--amazing that RS handlers let that diary loose. That whole knife thing finally got me to think that Maybe RS is guilty.
fran | 12.20.07 - 8:04 am | #
Matrix.
AndyT | 12.20.07 - 6:29 am | #
--LOL!!! they should give that kid a break.
--I don't speak Italian and I don't have sound on my computer, so matrix is unfortunately not compatible
Hey, Anonymous please use the function at end of thread to enter you posting handle, as you do have to provide a correct email anyways. Thanks.
And as to not reviewing things BEFORE the trial starts? Naaaaaaaah. That's not what we are here for. In fact, thanks to the work of AndyT and Kermit & damian from Halo1 & 2, & middie ditto, we are educating ourselves in preparation for outside evaluations when the trial starts. And there are all those tantalizing in-between things like --> Just WHO has joined Amanda's legal team from the US? including former FBI agents skilled in profiling & evidence evaluation? FINALLY, her Daddy's MBA skills & attitudes are beginning to show. Can't let Dr. Prompt have all the Good Lines. And who will try to save Rudy's bacon?
RobertM,
Just caught up with the postings from overnight, and after reading the following postings, wonder if the information re AK's legal team is true:
xin | 12.20.07 - 4:26 am posted:
that does this mean? please, the simple version--it's late.
"This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States.
coyotewaits"
-------------------------------
"Hi xin,
It means I am so disgusted with worldwide media but even more so the European media, and further so the Italian media that I decided to become my own correspondent and reporter.
I can weave fantasies based on rumor and innuendos amongst the best of the so called professionals of the fourth estate today. Did I fool you into thinking that someone was reporting something from somewhere other than my own fantasies."
So, I'm confused--Is this true, or was cw just making his point? Do you know?
In generalFran...also RS's dad plays down the 'prick' story, says he can't understand why his son would've taken that knife to Meredith's house to cook...since they had 14 knives there.
RS's team play up the missing footprint story and also say there cannot be a little star if there is no footprint. Maresca, the Kercher's lawyer, found common ground however when he said that the original analysis/photos of the footprint will be used during the trial.
AK's blood found on the biday in the smaller bathroom was 'mixed' with Meredith's.
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 8:47 am | #
Thank you for completing
ANN ARBOR re legal team. Well, I CERTAINLY read it as "true" but I myself was skimming earlier postings. If I'm making something up for sarcastic purposes, I try to clearly label it so as to avoid confusion. I will review where this all started and make another comment.
FRAN & ANDYT -- re BLOOD MIX ON THE BIDET.
There's a lot of ways that that could happen. Especially from the ladies shaving all their various parts (*Ahem*). Just look around your own bathroom. I'm single right now and I constantly finding stuff to clean, and I've lost a number of AM facial wars to my Gillette Turbo(TM) razor blade! Also, while it is a fact that women living together in groups do find their menses synchronizing, it takes TIME for that to happen. Amanda was in that house a bit over 3 weeks & also was spending most of her time elsewhere. Overlapping periods would be a coincidence but not unlikely. True matching would not have had time to occur.
In Porta a Porta I find relevant what lawyer Biscotti says about the escape of people from the house. One witness heard two people escaping, she saw one of them leaving on a stairwell. The other witness, Alessandra Formica, saw a black man, probably Rudy, on an other stairwell, from where he also has said he had left. So there are two witnesses seeing two different guys running away on the different stairwells (together with another person leaving in a different direction)
CORRECTION
coyotewaits at 12.20 1.40am
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=27706#62395
started a long post which began thus & ended thus, emphasis added:
"I just want to add my defense scenario to this additional piece of lucy-gucy circumstantial evidence. ... This correspondent would like to note that a fellow associate correspondent from the host country, Italy, informed me that the defense team of Ms. Knox legal representatives had been joined by assisting legal counsel and forensic scientists from the United States."
This last sentence is NOT TRUE as of yet at least. CW is attempting to show how easy it is for us not-in-Italy adults to write up a better newspaper feature story than the correspondents on the spot.
Hey, CW, do a better job of marking your SCENARIOS. As Will S would put it, "Rumour rides ahead of fact."
Anyway Bruno Vespa is a dickhead (sorry...)
Ref. fran | 12.20.07 - 8:36 am | #
Excellent new Matrix show, Fran, thanks for pointing it out.
Ref. Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 8:47 am |
Fran...also RS's dad plays down the 'prick' story, says he can't understand why his son would've taken that knife to Meredith's house to cook...since they had 14 knives there.
---------
Wow! Anonymous, I just watched part 2 of the Matrix show from last night. Daddy is using all his dialectical skills (and he has alot) to try to erase from the record his son's prick story. It's like he's saying that his son's story was never meant to be taken as a factual explanation
I.E.: Daddy's discrete message to prosecutors is: "don't even think about cross-examining him on his diary entries, that was just a helpful effort to TRY to explain the knife with the DNA. He's doing his best to provide explanations. On contemplating the circumstances, in this case, let's not take it seriously."
On the other hand, Daddy certainly is enjoying the degraded footprint. He says now there's nothing to link RS to events of that night.
Frog man, did RS's dad say that his medical witness claims the cause of death was asphyxiation?
Damian,
What is the alibi de jour coming from the RS camp today?
hi bpcl...you may not believe this, but I fell asleep last night around 12-30 and I honestly can't remember what exactly his team were saying. I do distinctly remember, however, a rather awkward exchange (Maresca-RS dad) about a telegram of condolences to the Kercher family which seems to have 'disappeared'.
Maybe the telegram's in the same place as RS' shoe print.
(kidding, sorry)
Damian,
I find that very strange yet very interesting. From what I understand, neither the RS camp nor the AK camp has ever publicly stated, in front of the media, or WHATEVER, that they were truly sorry for the Kercher family's loss of their daughter.
Setting psycho-babble aside, it just goes to show you that the narcissism that exists within their children has disseminated up to these two camps, or maybe, just maybe, it was there all along.
well well well, the big a 'shakes n bakes' when pressed on questions that require truthful answers. a true drama queen that keeps all fascinated!
the judges have lodged their reports saying THERE WAS A CLEANUP.
they also say that there were MANY persons there in the death house at the time of the murder and there is a POWERFUL but unuttered motivation behind this heinous act (of ritual murder no less).
this is low-achieving attempts at black magic......
Ann Arbor,
No, it is in the Harry Potter book. That same book that was teleported from the girls cottage to RS's flat for AK to read a few pages, before exotic sex with Mr. Wonderful, and then back to the cottage again. The only problem was that somehow, the final teleportation got lost in the shuffle. I just wish these two characters could get their story lines right so that we do not have to be humored each day with something new to analyze, in order to solve the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
bpcl,
The Harry Potter book! Of course-I'm ashamed I didn't think of that! Hahaha
Also, I want to mention that I actually have read comments from RS' dad re Meredith's death. It's a little nauseating, though. It usually a throw-away line at the end of a long speech about his son's innocence, and goes something like, "And of course we must all remember that poor girl Meredith, who died so cruelly on that night."
Ummm--doesn't ring as too sincere.
xin | 12.20.07 - 6:31 am
"there is NOTHING you can tell me about the media, but your post tells me plenty about you.
Chuckles twice. Just goes to show that when one speaks the honest truth in answer to another's questions asked the questioner get so PO'd because the answer doesn't fit their preconceived suppositions about what should be the truth. Sound familiar xin. The judge doesn't like to be fooled now, does she? Answer the question like I want to hear it, please! Now can we have the truth again?
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 9:41 am posted:
Also, the lawyers have read all the judge's reports, in particular, the 40pager...we haven't.
We haven't seen the 18 pager from Rudy's hearing either but alas posters freak out about the little bits they glean from web sites that they themselves defame and discredit.
If we all stopped paying attention the salacious reports and TV spots would all fade away. We could just wait for trial.
-------------------------
Very well said and never said better. Drop all our preconceived suppositions based on biased, incomplete and inaccurate reporting and wait impatiently for a trial. Or at least a public release of the entire 18 and 40 page judges' reports in original Italian and translation there of by our own expert "belle".
RG's lawyer on Porta Porta was trying to draw a line('frattura') where his client was seen running from the house, saying that RG wasn't involved in the clean up.
What you understand bpcl was confirmed by Maresca.
Damian,
Thank you. Maybe you could ask RG's lawyer that if we were to assume that it was indeed his client seen running from the scene of the crime, THAT we must also assume that he had nothing to do with it!
No offense Damian, because I have been to Italy and totally loved the place, but AndyT said the other day, that Italians do not know when to stop talking! Do you think that is true? I read today that RS's dad is now saying that maybe his son did not cook for AK, Meredith and himself afterall, that if his son did say it, that he was trying to give a possible explanation for the knife found in his flat.
You gotta love these lawyers and family members who all seem to have a propensity towards putting their clients in a bind. "What is truth?" after all.
coyotewaits: "Drop all our preconceived suppositions based on biased, incomplete and inaccurate reporting and wait impatiently for a trial"
------------------
The trouble is, that's all we really have. Without hard evidence (of which very little has actually been "officially" substantiated), each and every one one of us can only speculate.
Even the police themselves are 'speculating' about what they THINK took place, and I think it's human nature for us ALL to do this. At the very least, it opens up other avenues of thought that perhaps hadn't been considered before.
-------------------
"this is not the place to try to spin your BS as some sort of unneeded demonstration.
there is NOTHING you can tell me about the media, but your post tells me plenty about you."
xin | 12.20.07 - 6:31 am
On the other hand xin, it appears you might have been fooled at first that I was posting a published report and you were ready to believe it just if.
Just goes to show the power of "real" journalism even when it is fabricated, dramatized or even fact presented in a biased manner.
------------------------
AndyT | 12.20.07 - 6:29 am posted:
"Be careful Coyote"
http://www.lby3.com/archives/872
That's a cute story Andy, thanks. I wouldn't go that far. I don't need my 15 minutes of fame from doing jail time or not. I obviously already have my infamy established here, unfortunately, in the judgment of many others. (see above).
It's true that Italians like chatting but I'm not sure it's relevant.
I've never followed something like this before, so have nothing to compare it to. Maybe this is why I don't understand various diary entries which seem to me to create suspicion.
What you read '..trying to give an explanation..' is accurate.
('...supposedly seen running from the house...')sorry!
For me this case is all but closed except for the trial and convictions of the conspirators. Yes there a few hanging threads, but I'll continue to read the daily pubs for updates and to follow the trial.
Many thanks to all for their contributions here and especially to damian and middie for the Italian media sources (which removed the translation to Engish step before English pubs' reports) since I could translate them myself.
I'll move on to other things. But always with thoughts of Meredith Kercher and her family and friends.
coyotewaits | 11.19.07 - 12:06 pm
For me, this case is all but over except for the real time trial, not this trial by media or by this blogs' comments thread.
And now that these three tragic souls have been outed by the cold steel hands of forensic science; the finger prints, foot prints, DNA so minute it can only be seen with an electron microscope and typed by chemicals and computers, cell phone pings, tapped cell phone messages and conversations, blood and hair, knives, sponges, and even feces......we cry out....GUILTY.
coyotewaits | 11.24.07 - 11:32 pm |
CW, in the UK we really would describe you as a plonker.
.
damian, rob:
so very glad to see you two here.
x
So, I'm confused--Is this true, or was cw just making his point? Do you know?
ann arbor | 12.20.07 - 11:04 am | #
AnnA: it was one of those moments when coyote needed to change the subject to HIMself.
No it is not true, and his comments pretty much need to be ignored I'm afraid.
Agreed Xin
.
God Bless You, Mud.
Thank you Xin
Should I step to the front of the class for a medal?
I shake my head.
Anyway, let's see justice done.
No it is not true, and his comments pretty much need to be ignored I'm afraid.
xin | 12.20.07 - 4:21 pm | #
Its ok, xin, cw's postings were usually so long, and so opinionated that I generally just skimmed the first and last paragraphs!
Damian said: Frog man, did RS's dad say that his medical witness claims the cause of death was asphyxiation?
damian | 12.20.07 - 1:49 pm |
Hi Damian. I assume that's for me. I have to process the Italian into Spanish on the run, and a lot gets lost on the way. Was your question because you heard something to that effect, or because you suspect they're going in that direction.
I would assume that if that's the case, the knife stops being the murder weapon, and reduces the potential charges against RS (so that in the very worst case it was an assault weapon, and in the very best, a mushroom cutter for the friendly AK, RS, MK dinner that Meredith helped prepare in the 14 days between AK and RS first meeting each other and Meredith untimely murder - the RS "prick" story.)
I'll listen to the Matrix files again, if I pick up more in the sense you indicated, I'll post on it.
Not sure about stepping up for the medal. Medals are up to the plonker.
He's the one that *thinks* that way.
Yes, we need to see justice and we want the TRUTH and we want to pursue the BEAUTY of TRUTH.
best.
Can't we all just get along?........Take a day off coyote....but don't stay away ...please.......sometimes I enjoy your rambles
Muddy,
Plonker???? Love the word what's it mean?
Thanks for asking that Rhonda. I'm loving the word, and wondering about it as well. ANd of course,muddy only posted a SMALL selection of that sort of continuing theme.
http://tinyurl.com/2opo7r
Kermit frog man, it's here near the start...bit tricky to translate.
muddy | 12.20.07 - 4:15 pm
Yup, even I was a fool who believed at first what I was reading (translated) not having any comprehension of how the Italian justice systems works and especially how the European/Italian media works.
I was really impressed by that dramatic intro to the TV show last night...
Amanda in Lacrime.
Anonymous | 12.20.07 - 9:41 am
http://www.raiclicktv.it/raiclic...d=2098&
pagina=2
classical music and all.
Can't we all just get along?........You're right RK meman. I have tried to stay clear of arguments here, and regretted my snide remark as soon as I posted. Sorry.
"So, I'm confused--Is this true, or was cw just making his point? Do you know?"
ann arbor | 12.20.07 - 11:04 am
It was sarcastic humor Ann. Not appreciated by overly serious sleuths here. It was done to make a point. ~That what you read in the press is seldom the facts.~ It is most often just a distortion of what the reporter thinks the facts are or should be. xin doesn't like to be fooled. "now you must'n fool mommy, cw".
I thought when i read it in your posting, cw, that it was written to make your point about media lies. But a later post by RobertM spoke of new additions to AK's defense team (FBI and forensics people).So when I read it a second time, I wasn't certain what to think.
And my apologies for my snide posting a few back...no disrespect intended.
Rodney!
I'd like to nominate myself as the Christmas plonker. (idiot)
I thought 'the cold steel hands' was a bit much, maybe wouldn't have mentioned the 'electron microscope' or the 'tragic souls'...but have pretty much thought the same for a long time. (Obviously, one of the 3 cw was talking about, I would swap for another)
Call me a plonker...
OK: OT (ie you can fast scroll.... as determined by...)
In the UK there's been a very popular comedy series based in South London, for years and years.
.... I'm going to look for a youtube. Del Boy, Rodney, The Trotters. I can't describe it.
I'm aware we shouldn't be having a laugh on this subject - let's just say it's enormously popular here in South East London...
Anyway, Del Boy (quasi sophisticated older brother con man) would usually deride Rodney (younger honest but dim with the nicer GF) as:
"You Plonker"
It does resonate.
Damian, nice to see your input again, I do share your misgivings.
.
Good to see you back Damian....!
Dearest Coyote,
Your nic is so perfect for you. At times your impatience is palpable. I can just see you as a coyote....ready to pounce on any perceived slight, falsehood, misconception you see...pacing....a little human on your shoulder saying....wait...wait wait.
Have some faith my friend..Justice does often prevail in one way or another..just not on our time schedule.
I thought when i read it in your posting, cw, that it was written to make your point about media lies. But a later post by RobertM spoke of new additions to AK's defense team (FBI and forensics people).So when I read it a second time, I wasn't certain what to think.
And my apologies for my snide posting a few back...no disrespect intended.
ann arbor | 12.20.07 - 4:52 pm
---------------
Yes Ann. I think RobertM was not sure it wasn't real also, though he admitted he had just skimmed it and needed to look again. And xin of course was very tired, otherwise why the emotional anger at another's sarcasm to make a point. As I said, people do not like to be fooled, who does, same as being lied to. (Look at all the anger at suspects here because people 'believe' AK, RS and RG are lying). Other of my 'long' posts covered topics about people telling the truth who were punished by angry justice systems because their truths had to be lies.
So yes I can be provocative at times, but it is on purpose. If people can't see my purpose and have to bash my style, well that ok with me, flaming doesn't bother me. It's to be expected. To be online in any thread one has to have a thick skin. The point still is made successfully and it sinks into consciousness unrecognized.
Apologies accepted, certainly no hard feelings. As I said I have a thick skin, worn rough by experience, and hold no grudges.
classical music and all.
coyotewaits | 12.20.07 - 4:42 pm
Wasn't it the same as the theme music to "Gone with the Wind"
It was so familiar...
I've been thinking about this all day
Compare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=g...feature=related
OT)) AndyT | 12.20.07 - 5:11 pm posted: "Wasn't it the same as the theme music to "Gone with the Wind"
It was so familiar...
I've been thinking about this all day"
---------------
Keen ear and observation there Andy. Must be some irony in that intro music for Porta Porta and their producers selection of the musical theme from an American movie. Maybe the composer of that original music score was an Italian.
Starring Raffaele Sollecito as Rhet Butler and Amanda Knox as Scarlet O'Hara...
This is going to take a long time; that's how it is.
There will be lots of speculation, titbits of information and crappy, lazy journalism in the meantime.
We won't have a clear idea of what the police have until the trial.
I don't think Ricciarelli wrote a 'Gone with the Wind' type report.
Sorry, sounding a bit like a machine there...
re the autopsy
Kermit | 12.20.07 - 4:32 pm | #
How would RS medical team know? They were one of the teams that requested a second autopsy that they'd be privy to. But as far as I know there wasn't one.
They're talking bull-crud because RS is fascinated by knives.
The point still is made successfully and it sinks into consciousness unrecognized. (CW)
as being 100% assholish and dishonest--that's what sank in, contrary to the *i am the center of the universe* idea.
as i said: there is NOTHING you can teach me about the media.
and now BASTA, fool.
cool your boot boots xin, you're usually a voice of reason.
WHOA! either I'm too tolerant or I don't get the undertones. People, please.
annarbor, you apparently missed my bolded CORRECTIONS comment above at http://www.haloscan.com/comments...07317890/
#62544
I have NO PROBLEM with someone posting a pastiche to make a point, I asked only that such be made more clear so if skimmed one would not think it the real thing. I take this advice to heart myself.
QUERY on JUDGE'S REPORT re Rudy:
Has NO extended excerpts appeared in any of the Italian papers? I think this Judge's conclusions, and EVIDENCE CITATIONS, would be very important to read. Espcially if he is referring to multiple (i.e. more than 3) people being in & out of the house. Damian, nothing???
'..would be very important to read.'
haven't seen any extended excerpts.
http://tinyurl.com/2ex36k
This has some short excerpts but I don't think they are new.
'..la fuga da tutti subito dopo..'
Everyone ran straight after the..(murder)
Coyotewaits,
You were happy to see me find this thread! You can't go just yet! One of the great things about this place is people like you. Even if we get upset with each other, it is no different than fighting with our own brothers and sisters.
The problem all of us are facing here, is that there is so little coming out, and when it does come out, the spin-meisters just spagetti it all up.
However, many people here, including you and RobertM, Pinecone and so many others, give good insight from time to time, about the very minutia that is available to us; and personally speaking, I find it to be very helpful. I also believe that many of us here have come to realize that this case is not simple as you have pointed out, but far more complex than we can possibly imagine. Even Luke, who I greatly respect, and do not see here anymore, has admitted that the usual suspects have completely baffled him. I hope that you will stick around.
bpcl.............well said....is luke out there lurking?.....where are you Luke?
RobertM, I did see your bolded corrections, and you confirmed for me that cw was just playing. So thats good--i appreciated it.
I was just explaining, when cw brought it up again late this afternoon, that seeing his post, and then reading yours repeating the information, had me second guessing myself. But its not a big deal and, Phew--Please don't mess with us again in this way cw. Geeez, I'm exhausted from trying to explain to everyone about something of no importance.
I would much rather get back to discussing what we gather here to discuss. The murder, suspects, new info (if any)...
Meman,
It's up to RobertM to find him; he led everybody else to this thread and so I am putting the burden on him!
lol............yea i agree.....did you Hear that RobertM....lol
RobertM:
ABC News claims to have seen the report (but who knows). At the end of this recap there is this--and this is right from their abc.com website--
With additional reporting from Perugia by Carla Rumor
http://abcnews.go.com/Internatio...=4032657&
page=1
Well, I said Damian and he came back! But rob showed up on his own, and middie I think too. So if you ALL think "LUKE", perhaps our white magic will work. (Actually, a lot of people really had no use for the Disques format, it seems.)
Thanks for link, Damian. It seems though I can't "copy" text into Babelfish to translate; they've set up a copyright restrict. Would I have to register to get around the copyright screen? I think there's a LOT more in their than the Times reporter tried to summarize and certainly more than the "Reuters" reporter. If you have the time, could you do an English summary for each section? And are those things "quote marks"? (I would assume.)
"...a neighbor who said she heard terrible screaming come from the house on via della Pergola on the night of the murder. The neighbor told police she also heard the sound of hurried footsteps from a number of people running from the house "right after the tragic ending of the evening."
--ABC News
Why didn't this neighbor call police? This perhaps could've had a different outcome...
RobertM, this is it
PERUGIA (19 Decembers) - All inquire you to it for the murder of the English student Meredith Kercher - the American Amanda Knox, Prompt the Raffaele fiancèe and the ivoriano Rudy Guede - they have had an active role in the homicide. Re-examination supports the Court del that emphasizes also the falsità contained nella version of Guede. The sentence. The judges, in the motivations of the sentence with which it has been rejected the request of release of Rudy Hermann Guede, write that the evening of 1 November was to house of Meredith Kercher more persons and all have participated to the homicide. From the replies investigated to you and scientific the presence appears by now sure "more persons in that house in the moment in which Meredith it came murdered and the escape of all endured after the tragic epilogue of the evening". Persons who the court identifies clearly in Rudy, Amanda Knox and Prompt Raffaele. "a participation of group - they add - to the brutal criminal action that does not appear hypothetical in terms passes you for nobody of the present ones". In the 18 pages of the provision the judges analyze one to one supplied the scientific and investigative tests and conclude emphasizing that these data, "place a relation directed between the subjects in issue and their presence in the house in the context of the mortal aggression them to Meredith, in coherence to a factual reconstruction that sees the access more persons in that room without necessity of forzature and for consent of someone" of house "". The motive lacks. To a month and means from the homicide of Meredith Kercher not there is still the motive that has carried to the murder of the English student, then writes the Re-examination in the motivations of the decree with which they have rejected the demand for release of Rudy Hermann Guede. E' before the time from the beginning of surveyings that of the judges put black on white man one of the still dark points of the inquiry. "the elements to inquired cargo of the odierno - the judges assert speaking about Rudy - sopraggiungono for scientific source but do not upset the reconstruction of the fact that man hand has gone disvelandosi". And they add: "It is in entourage of the amicali relations more or the little grips, of the many occasions of acquaintance" to chain "in some way typical of the university life of the" outside center that turns out to be matured the incredible one and brutal crime of which, it must acknowledge, it still remains difficult to travel over again the ideative sequences ". It remains therefore to try the motive because, the judges still say, are "istinctively unacceptable who without a reason strongly friction or a situation of extreme alteration, contemporary young people of the victim, knowing its, have carried their sconsideratezza until the extreme limit of cruento the crime". But that does not mean, specifies but endured after, than it inquires to it not there to you enter and that is demonstrated from "data objects to you" that "they speak" and that "they are integrated mutual and they converged": "the tortured body Speaks about Meredith, speaks the assessed impossibility that the authors are enter to you in house and for a various criminal scope furtively, the signs of the sexual violence, the traces of dna speak of Amanda and the victim on the same knife, the being this guarded in the house of Raffaele, the riferibile print to one shoe of costui in the room of the crime, the ematiche traces of the Knox in a bath and the unequivocal signs of the presence in contemporary in the other bath of Rudy, the print of this last on the pillow and its biological material in the vaginal pad of Meredith". Unreliable Guede. The reconstruction supplied from Rudy Hermann Guede with respect to the evening in which the English student Merdith Kercher it has been killed turns out "absolutely unreliable", "in how much contrasting with objective outcomes of the procedure, beyond that with consideration of logical order", the Court of the Re-examination still asserts. The judges then list the points from which emerge "the eclatanti and meaningful falsità" from part of the ivoriano, accused of competition in homicide and sexual violence in the comparisons of the English student, killed the night between first and two November, in its room of Via of the Bower to Perugia. According to the Re-examination, in particular, Rudy in its reconstruction of the evening of 31 October (that one before the homicide), asserts to have agreed with the victim the appointment for the following day. Version, second the judges, that "it contrasts totally" with the fact that Meredith passed the evening before the homicide "with the English friends, at first having supper to house of one of they, then, towards the 0,30, oing to the Merlin and still after to the Domus". To the "Domus - law in the motivations - the same Rudy declares not to have seen Meredith. The Spanish girls friends of Rudy, confirm of being exited with he that evening and of to have gone in the houses of two Spanish friends, but they exclude to never have seen or known Meredith, which does not turn out in alun way connected to those frequentations ". According to the Re-examination, therefore, the passed evening 31 October from Meredith "does not contemplate some passage that puts it in contact with Rudy, tantomeno like girl whom it flirted and it was kissed with he".
Andy T:
I think I will wait for the cunieform translation.
thanks seattleite --> it has 52 comments so far and boy, are they off-topic. Makes xin & cw look like a prosecutorial team. I'm working my way to page 3.
On page 2: "Battistacci wrote that the "incredible and ferocious" murder came out of the atmosphere of the meeting of many new people that is typical of university life. Yet the judge is clearly taken aback by the violence "because it is instinctively inacceptable that young people of the same age who are also acquaintances of the victim, could take their thoughtlessness to such an extreme as to commits such a cruel crime without their being a strong conflict or an extreme state of alteration."
I figured out how to copy the Il Massegero article. Just save it as text! DUH. I'll fiddle with it but this ABC report looks like its got most of it. The list of evidence these judges accept as SOLID is:
** A bloody handprint found on a pillow under the victim and DNA evidence found in the bathroom of the house and on Kercher's body belonged to Guede.
** A bloody shoe print on the scene of the crime matched Sollecito's shoe.
** A knife found in Sollecito's house contained DNA from Knox on the handle and from the victim on the blade.
** Knox's blood was found on the sink in one of the bathrooms, and the absence of her fingerprints in the house where she lived (except for a single print on a glass) was evidence that she was there and carefully cleaned up traces of her presence.
** Knox has said that she was with Sollecito at his house for the entire night of Nov. 1, but Sollecito's proof that he, too was home — his use of the computer that night — has been dismantled by police.
muddy | 12.20.07 - 4:15 pm posted excerpts from HaloScan I thread of cw's posts a month ago that the case was solved:
"For me this case is all but closed except for the trial and convictions of the conspirators. Yes there a few hanging threads, but I'll continue to read the daily pubs for updates and to follow the trial.
Many thanks to all for their contributions here and especially to damian and middie for the Italian media sources (which removed the translation to Engish step before English pubs' reports) since I could translate them myself.
I'll move on to other things. But always with thoughts of Meredith Kercher and her family and friends.
coyotewaits | 11.19.07 - 12:06 pm"
and
"For me, this case is all but over except for the real time trial, not this trial by media or by this blogs' comments thread.
And now that these three tragic souls have been outed by the cold steel hands of forensic science; the finger prints, foot prints, DNA so minute it can only be seen with an electron microscope and typed by chemicals and computers, cell phone pings, tapped cell phone messages and conversations, blood and hair, knives, sponges, and even feces......we cry out....GUILTY.
coyotewaits | 11.24.07 - 11:32 pm"
----------------------
and muddy added:
"CW, in the UK we really would describe you as a plonker."
and
damian | 12.20.07 - 4:52 pm added his humorous post:
"Rodney!
I'd like to nominate myself as the Christmas plonker. (idiot)
I thought 'the cold steel hands' was a bit much, maybe wouldn't have mentioned the 'electron microscope' or the 'tragic souls'...but have pretty much thought the same for a long time. (Obviously, one of the 3 cw was talking about, I would swap for another)
Call me a plonker...
----------------------
and point out just a small correction to damian's post that in the context of my 11/19 and 11/24 posts the 3rd I was talking about was not PL but was in fact at that time the mysterious unknown third person, at that time referred to as the NA.
And interestingly today 98% of the universe watching Italian TV and reading Italian press and two thirds of the posters here believe just what I stated back then: It was RS, AK and the now known third person RG.
In the meantime to remain 'provoative?' and keep minds thinking this CW character now lines up behind pinecone's theory that it was only RG and possibly one other still unknown assailant. (I have stated my reasons carefully, something about all evidence reported since 11/19/07 has been nothing but circumstantial)..
Geeeshhhhh, I am a plonker!!! No damian, you can't have the title plonker.
I own it. It belongs to me. I am the idiot!!
'The list of evidence these judges accept as solid is:'
Sorry Robert, but this can do nothing but mislead. Let's wait till we see all the evidence before saying things like that. We have seen a tiny fraction of these reports and probably won't see the rest until the trial.
NOTE re the evidence list in the Rudy judges report. What's missing? Among several things, there is NO MENTION OF THE CCTV PICTURES.
First part of report in clearer English
PERUGIA (19 December) - All suspects for the murder of English student Meredith Kercher -- the American Amanda Knox, the boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, and the Ivorian Rudy Guede -- played an active part in the homicide. The Court supports the Review also stressing the lies contained in the version of Guede.
The judgment. The judges, in their reasoning for the rejection of the request for the release of Rudy Hermann Guede, write that on the evening of November 1 several people were at the home of MK and all have participated in the murder. The investigative and scientific evidence now appears certain of the presence of more people in the house when Meredith was killed, and the escape of all immediately after the tragic epilogue of the evening.
People that the court clearly identifies are Rudy, Amanda Knox and Raffaele. "A group participation - aggregated criminal action, which does not appear feasible if those who were present had been passive. In the 18 pages of the report, the judges analyze the scientific evidence and investigation, and conclude by pointing out that the data indicate a direct relationship between the players in question and their presence in the house in the context of a deadly attack against Meredith, consistent with a factual reconstruction that sees access to more people in the home - without the need for consensus and for forcing someone "at home".
Missing motive. A month and a half after the murder of Meredith Kercher, there is still no motive, leading to the killing of the English student. The Review then mentions the reasons for rejecting the request for the release of Rudy Hermann Guede.........
Sorry anonymous was me coyotewaits, the idiot.
What's also missing is 95% of the report...
cw, I stand corrected.
So all we are getting is the judges conclusions on each point of evidence, and NOT the details of how they reached their conclusions, and then how all those conclusions fit into the Group Theory. And STILL no mention of the CCTV pictures.
Why not?
My guess is in the report they must just put their conclusions to hold the suspect and any sensitive facts will be left out or redacted. And as Damien says this is clearly a recap and ABC will likely not want to pay a translator to do the whole thing. Why when they have Carla Rumor reporting from Perugia.
Damian, I saw your earlier note ref the point to watch in Matrix. Am bushed, will check it in the morning, and leave a message then if I can understand something. 'Nite
My guess is in the report they must just put their conclusions to hold the suspect and any sensitive facts will be left out or redacted. And as Damien says this is clearly a recap and ABC will likely not want to pay a translator to do the whole thing. Why when they have Carla Rumor reporting from Perugia.
seattleite | 12.20.07 - 7:46 pm |
I laughed when I saw the reporter's name.
Pinecone:
You just can't make this stuff up.
The ABC link above says the neighbor's testimony is "key" evidence. She testified to hearing screams and several people running.
"This is confirmation, the judges wrote, of 'a group participation in the ferocious criminal act, that cannot be considered in passive terms for any of those present.'"
Of course, this doesn't mean anything because they're still in the conclusion jumping stage of the investigation.
Damian said: Frog man, did RS's dad say that his medical witness claims the cause of death was asphyxiation?
damian | 12.20.07 - 1:49 pm |
Hi Damian. I assume that's for me. Kermit | 12.20.07 - 4:32 pm | #
--I have read on another blog comment,(I think , not sure the perugia shock, eyes for lies, or crimerant) that Meredith dies of asphxiation because that is the way something, forget what it was, in her neck was broken, and also why the pillow was near her.
There is most certainly a strong theory for her dieing from asphxiation.
Why would the official reports mention that she bleed to death, a very slow death? I do not know why.
But the CCTV pics would show people moving in & around the house, thus "confirming" that multiple peoples were involved as per their theory. Also, perhaps, the exits of same. And what about CCTV pics FROM THE NEXT MORNING, when there is sdaylight? Never thought of that before.
Really, IF the CCTV pics actually showed what the leak claimed they did (remember that one?), THEN the judges wouldn't need to cite odd blood drops and lack of fingerprints, etc. At this point, I don't think they are holding them back. I DON'T THINK THEY SHOW ANYTHING AT ALL, neither at night nore in the day. We shall see of course, but still...
From what I understand, neither the RS camp nor the AK camp has ever publicly stated, in front of the media, or WHATEVER, that they were truly sorry for the Kercher family's loss of their daughter.
bpcl | 12.20.07 - 2:39 pm | #
--actually, RS has brought up a lot the terrible murder of Meredith, and by media reports he also went to the memorial in Italy when it just happened. I read that AManda didn't go to the memorial, and I also have not observed anything from her about poor Meredith.
I DON'T THINK THEY SHOW ANYTHING AT ALL, neither at night nor in the day. We shall see of course, but still...
Robert M. | 12.20.07 - 8:52 pm
I think the CCTV thing was a bluff. I'll call their bluff and raise them a bloody bra with Rudy's DNA on the clasp.
chris | 12.20.07 - 8:52 pm | # additionally, the commenter said that the injuries in merediths mouth were consistant with being smothered by a pillow. I saw this quite awhile ago, but it really seemed very confidant.
Maybe someone tried to smother her, and didn't realize that she wasn't dead, and she then bleed to death in an unconcious state.
Maybe someone tried to smother her, and didn't realize that she wasn't dead, and she then bleed to death in an unconcious state.
chris | 12.20.07 - 9:21 pm
I think the strangling was overkill. He wanted to be sure she was really dead, and didn't want to wait for the twitching to stop. Plus, he was really pissed off at her because he injured his own hand when he stabbed her.
Back from the aeroport.
What I assume here that makes sense to me:
The judges make the decision,
based on the presentation of the investigating prosecutor (the lead dude) of "certain" evidence of the crime and at the crime scene and circumstantial evidence of the suspects behavior surrounding the time of the crime; and after the judges have been involved in a Q & A of the individual suspects with the latter's attorneys present,
to continue to detain (or to release) the suspects from prison while the investigation 'continues'.
I would further assume that Italian law requires these judges to file a written document stating their conclusions based on what they heard and considered to warrant their decision.
But that the law does not require the judges to document in the report all the evidence in detail and the conclusions and theories the prosecution is operating on as the prosecution would thus be required to do when they filed an indictment of the suspects for trial. They merely need at this stage to provide a summary justification of their decision. So we get very few details.
So Damian and many others here, me included, have always assumed all along that there are evidentiary details, many discussed at the hearings, but many perhaps not yet submitted to the hearings (slow progress mentioned by fran and damian to Italian prosecution) that are not in these reports and are not required to be in them.
So yes we are back to the same squares to which we have been moving our game pieces around trying to make sense of leaked, rumored, actual, stated then forgotten, and other evidence.
soozie said that's all we have to go on. She's right. So let's go on. It remains interesting to debate back and forth every bit we hear. I'll add mine in the next couple posts looking for some feed back from the critical thinking of others here.
Many media reports stated that AK blood was found on the tap of the bathroom sink. These reports also says the blood of Mk was found scattered in the sink and on the floor or rug on the floor of the bathroom that had been diluted with water.
Other reports, that I have only seen here, says that AK blood had been found on the bidet and in mixture with MK blood. Can anyone confirm that this second bit of info about AK blood was from media reports and when? I don't need the link, I trust your word if more than few here had read that in the reports.
The judges report for the continued detention of RG did state that the crime was committed by multiple person, the three present suspects included, (I never could figure out without belle's translation whether they were implying possibly more than the three suspects) and that after the crime a new recently (found?) key witness as hearing a scream and shortly thereafter hearing multiple persons footsteps fleeing the house.
Gee, I wish she had looked with her eyes rather than just listened with her ears.
Anyway my next question. Do I infer correctly that this means, AK and RS being amongst those present were also the fleeing persons and thus did not remain to cleanup, such cleanup taking place also clearly repeated in the report for the nth time that had taken place?
If so then, I also have to infer that RS & AK, after gathering their senses and having discussions, must have returned to the house for the cleanup. Thus the additional witness (no mentioned in the report, but certainly reported before)of hearing argumentative voices around 2:00 am.
I just remain baffled about the LE insisting there was a clean up solely based on the lack of AK fingerprint in the house and two empty or near empty bottles of bleach found at RS house, the brand of which wasn't used by his maid? (And such details of the receipts for the bleach purchases appearing and then disappearing as reported evidence).
Anyone else working this inference over in their minds and what this new witness means and what clean up really means?
Robert M. | 12.20.07 - 7:42 pm asked:
So all we are getting is the judges conclusions on each point of evidence, and NOT the details of how they reached their conclusions, and then how all those conclusions fit into the Group Theory. And STILL no mention of the CCTV pictures.
Why not?
------------------------
see my thoughts for an answer at my following post
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=42395#62864
in brief, because it is not required at this stage of the Italian legal process. This is just the equivalent of bail hearing phase.
Robert M. | 12.20.07 - 8:52 pm posted:
"Really, IF the CCTV pics actually showed what the leak claimed they did (remember that one?), THEN the judges wouldn't need to cite odd blood drops and lack of fingerprints, etc. At this point, I don't think they are holding them back. I DON'T THINK THEY SHOW ANYTHING AT ALL, neither at night nore in the day. We shall see of course, but still..."
I have been thinking this for some time now and posted such thoughts previously. That there are no CCTV images of any conclusive value. They are more evidence mentioned through the leaked to media process that has disappeared into the black hole like the hair in MK hand evidence.
Scary isn't it.
Coyote, my understanding on the bleach was that a shop near RS's place sold 2 containers of it on the 'morning after', same size/brand as the (now empty) containers found at RS's i.e. timed receipts on the shop's records, not receipts found at RS's home.
CW:
My understanding that in MK's room the wardrobe is to the right of the window if you look at the "grainy" crime scene picture. One word answer.
CW: As we say in Seattle Nevermind. I was looking at the video Kermit posted the link for back at Disqus and compared it as you did to the "grainy". I only wanted to establish that the wardrobe is NOT on the "other side" of the bed...that the bed is against the wall and that one can't say "the wardrobe" is on "the other side of the bed".
You would think that the killer would have used some type of gag or something, near the beginning, to prevent loud attention getting screams . Unless the perpetrator(s) got some extra thrill listening to her to plead for her life.
And good luck if the court is looking for some all inclusive motive for this horrific death.. Botched inside robbery, and threat of police intervention? Prison time for Rudy, and Amanda gets kicked out of Italy. Sex and drugged fueled party gone wrong with multiple people involved? The judges don’t want to rule this out and takes in to account neighbors recollections. Also helps sell tabloids. Mutual date gone wrong? This scenario isn’t panning out for Rudy. Time to try something else .
OT)) Although on topic with regards to my and others posts about the interrogation techniques of pressure and stress used on AK over endless hours during the night where she confessed to being at the crime scene, hearing MK scream and implicating PL. And that the likely hood that her confession was coerced and forced by LE.
From the Chicago Tribune:
"A federal jury today awarded $15.5 million to Kevin Fox and his wife after concluding that Will County sheriff's detectives violated his civil rights by fabricating evidence in the 2004 slaying of his 3-year-old daughter, Riley.
Jurors determined Sgt. Edward Hayes, three deputies assigned as detectives to the case, the estate of a fifth and the county were liable for trying to railroad Fox."
see complete story here:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/
ne...l=chi_home_util
"The reasons that Tomczak and the other defendants were dismissed remains under court seal at the order of U.S. District Judge John Darrah. Zellner, the Foxes' attorney, would only say the claims against the dismissed defendants were "resolved."
The actual facts here is that those separated from the case and their insurance companies settled with Kevin Fox out of court before the case when to the jury. So the financial damages paid to the Kevin Fox family are far greater than the $15.5M.
I would also like those who read the article to note that the sheriff's police still insist he is guilty and involved in the crime. No apologies from the detectives because the money doesn't come out of their pockets it comes out of mine, the taxpayer. Actually it because of police mentality, they can do no wrong.
This kind of malicious prosecution happens all the time in the USA by overly aggressive elected public officials and by a police mentally is get somebody anybody in high profile and very public cases.
Ladies and Gentlemen: Should I assume that such investigative techniques and malicious prosecution of innocent suspects never occurs in Italy, or at least in Central and Northern Italy around the Umbria District?
I rest my case on the AK confession as any kind of circumstantial evidence and the fact that none of us witnessed or have testimony from anyone who did in the public forum. We should. There should be video tapes of that interrogation.
Nowo: "receipts"
That was reported in a post that 2 receipts were taken from a store. The newspapers reported the receipts at RS place were not from Nov. 2.
Coyote, my understanding on the bleach was that a shop near RS's place sold 2 containers of it on the 'morning after', same size/brand as the (now empty) containers found at RS's i.e. timed receipts on the shop's records, not receipts found at RS's home.
nowo | 12.20.07 - 11:16 pm
-----------------------
Thanks nowo. Interesting. I recalled the receipts were from his home. Therefore if you are correct with the report you read nowo, then I would wonder was there a clerk that sold the bleach that has identified RS or AK as the purchaser. Or was it an automated check out that takes cash, obvious that if it was a cover up RS or AK wouldn't use their bank card.
This also implies that the clean up was in the late morning hours not early 2:00 am hours. Like they went back to the house at 7:00, 8:00 whatever the receipts said.
Get my point about circumstantial evidence. Such evidence starts, like an excellent and appropriate metaphor by puzzler and used elsewhere in this thread by kermit, appearing as “Facts are like fireflies, they are real, always there even when you can't see them, blinking in and out of view in ever changing configurations.”
cw info/blood/ bidet
'The confirm traces of blood is due to Mez (on the mat and bidet) both Amanda (in the sink and bidet)'
http://notizie.alice.it/notizie/...l?
pmk=nothpstr2
On another note, are there any differences in chemical composition between menstrual blood and 'other' blood? I've been unable to find any info on this.
Novo: Blood Question
...at the outset that menstrual blood differs in composition from that of regular blood, most notably by containing immune cells called "macrophages". These cells are able to combat the presence of pathogens present in the uterine cavity. It is from this observation that Profet establishes her hypotheses: "Menstruation functions to protect the uterus and oviducts from colonization by pathogens"
http://www.thirdspace.ca/article...cles/
pr_ogr.htm
DLW | 12.21.07 - 12:06 am
Thanks for another update on what I take is reported extracts from the 18 page judges report on the further detention of RG. As pointed out by others here there is no new reported evidence than that which we were already considering.
I am hoping to see the corresponding judges report for the further detention of AK whose hearing was conducted this past Monday 19 Nov. Is that the 40 pages report or am I confusing reports here?
cool your boot boots xin, you're usually a voice of reason.
muddy | 12.20.07 - 5:58 pm | #
Ha--you're funny, but OK.
I'd rather be hot-footed than a plonker.
Leaving this day for the altered state of consciousness known as slow wave and rem sleep states with these thoughts in my brain from this conclusion in the judges report:
"The panel of three judges, presided over by Andrea Battistacci, remains baffled for a motive in the grisly attack.
Battistacci wrote that the "incredible and ferocious" murder came out of the atmosphere of the meeting of many new people that is typical of university life. Yet the judge is clearly taken aback by the violence "because it is instinctively inacceptable that young people of the same age who are also acquaintances of the victim, could take their thoughtlessness to such an extreme as to commits such a cruel crime without their being a strong conflict or an extreme state of alteration."
Prior to this report we had LE, prosecutors and judges theories (for the inclusion of AK, RS RG as jointly involved suspects only) of:
1) A sexual game that went out of control accidentally;
2) A domestic dispute between flat mates, possibly over money and perhaps fueled previously my non-cooperative behavior of the suspect AK amongst the other three flat mates over hygiene and cleaning issues resulting in angry confrontation that got out of hand;
and theories presented here by posters including some but I am sure not all:
3) RobertM Shadow theory of human behavior resulting from universal but unconscious forces beyond control of orbital-frontal cortex neuronal inhibitor functions (Jungian psychology);
4)sexual magic, satanic ritual, Voodoo religious ceremonial practices, etc. which I would classify under the Shadow theory
5)previously non-perceived and undiagnosed sociopathic and possibly psychopathic personality disorders (as defined by Hare, et. al.) in AK and/or RS or both, who upon personal and sexual union over just two weeks time did premeditate or otherwise express their pathological personalities in a plan executional murder
6)modifying theory 5) slightly as to the pathologies, and thus just a plain simple and calculated thrill killing by two otherwise privileged and intelligent young university students, re: Leopold & Loeb calculated thrill killing;
7)any re-spinning and synthesis of the above six theories into a more coherent theory;
actually I think all these 3) through 7)theories were elucidated and developed by RobertM with credited input from other posters given by him;
group of RS, AK and RG and ??? gathered to indulge and participate in enjoying drugs far more behaviorally and brain states alternating than just hashish would be, leading alone or in synthesis with any of the theories above;
9)any theories presented previously I missed, and my apologies for not remembering. (Please note my summary list of theories here is only the ones that support the judges conclusions and bafflement. Not the alternative theories, e.g., Pinecones that do not involve at minimum the current three suspects).
The fact is the judges declare they are baffled. We here also seem to be baffled. Are we?
10) any theories that the participants here are yet to contribute from their critical thinking, dreams, intuition, rational or irrational suppositions or their better halves and friends responses to wondering about their obsessive involvement in this fascinating thread.
Coyote waits.
ah did I finally figure out the code for the kewl face html code? 8 ) or
it is! 8 no space ) 8 space ) 8 )
xin doesn't like to be fooled. "now you must'n fool mommy, cw".
----------
Quote from CW above, who needs an amazing amount of attention, and so stoops to blatant sexism and very offensive references.
You did not fool me, and I am not your "mommy."
Please stop it. Just do it. Stop.
OK
UP AND AT 'EM, ITALY, England and other countries with a decent education program for the languages of culture.
These comments have appeared on the Perugia-Shock blog in response to the 12/18 article about the (WOW!) discovery of the latest and greatest in the category of possible weapons, and the scene created by daddykins and his hirelings.
ANybody willing to help translate. These excerpts need nuance that Google just can't get.
We are in the very early days of technology. Here's the stuff, comments by Perugians:
Sollecito -Padre oltre ad improvvisarsi Psicologo psichiatra medicolegale ecce ecc. stà inquinando tutte le scene sia mediatiche che investigative per ultima la marchetta di ieri sera sù MATRIX dove c'era solo lui e il suo pool ad difendere RAFF AELE senza nessuna controparte..troppo comodo
December 20, 2007 4:54 AM
Anonymous tobefrank-italia said...
Dovresti vedere come si muove a Perugia. Va sempre a cercare i giornalisti. Cmq è incredibile quell'uomo, è molto meglio dei suoi avvocati. Stasera o domani potrai leggere un articolo su di lui, anche.
Thanks, thanks, thanks.
I'm thinking Frank is the *go to guy.*
A new day everyone.
Not a happy Christmas in Croydon.
I just put a 14-shot photo essay up that I've been working on for ages. Street paintings in LA of the Virgin of Guadalupe who protects murdered children.
If you are interested
it's at http://arttotherescue.blogspot.com
and on the blog-resource site for this crime. i hope it all links up the right way.
Hey Xin, wonderful photo essay, congrats from me.
"...If so then, I also have to infer that RS & AK, after gathering their senses and having discussions, must have returned to the house for the cleanup..."
coyotewaits | 12.20.07 - 10:50 pm
Yes, Coyote, this may well be what happened.
As far as I understand it, the old lady witness has said that she saw (or just heard?) three people fleeing the scene - one [IMO, could be RHG] going one way, and two others [IMO, could be AK + RS] going another way.
But please correct me someone, if I've got this wrong.
AndyT,
Hi!
the old lady heard many steps and then two people escaping, one along the street and one on the stairwell. Another witness saw on a different stairwell a black man running away
Also GOOD MORNING! or perhaps Early Afternoon in the UK & Italy & Elsewhere by the time this posts.
ALL Law Enforcement Agencies Must Be Meticulous In Doing CSI
While scientific investigation in criminal matters has advanced tremendously in our own lifetimes, accelerated even over the past 10-15 years so much that "cold cases" from even 30+ years ago can get solved*, one must not forget that GIGO -- garbage in, garbage out -- always applies. Here's the link to the acquittal report on the 1998 Omagh bombings by Mr. Justice Weir of North Ireland for which the single describing word -- "damning" -- is not strong enough. Bad procedures, right up to actually losing a car (!!!!), and outright lieing, led the judge to acquit the only real suspect. So, while CSI techniques are now part of LE training etc, IT'S ALL ABOUT DOING THEM CORRECTLY FROM THE START, or else they are valueless. And that applies to the US, the UK, the Portuguese, and the Italians, http://www.guardian.co.uk/
Northe...2230858,00.html
* footnote: For the DNA story in The Joan Mixer (1969) Murder Case, once attributed to the Michigan Coed Murderer ( http://www.crimelibrary.com/seri...ins/
body_1.html ),
see the links at the Court TV Index page on the 2005 trial which led to a conviction:
http://www.courttv.com/trials/le...rman/
index.html
Note ESPECIALLY the section on DNA contamination. The jury finally felt that the other circumstantial evidnce, plus the DNA, warranted the conviction of some one who had led an alltogether good, community-service oriented life before that. There are links to the video of the trial as well. I prefer, for background, the 48 Hours narrative from the perspective of Mixer's niece, poet Maggie Nelson, who's second book is a series of poems written over time as she grappled with the decade upon decade impact of her aunt's death on her family, perhaps the way the Kerchers and especially sister Stephanie are experiencing their own loss now:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2...in1066064.shtml
Chris,
actually RS's father sent a letter of condolences to the Kercher family but it didn't arrice to them apparently. That is what they said on TV
Kermit,
actually RS's father went on even to suggest that the shoeprint disappearance can suggest it was like a manipulation
Sollecito -Padre oltre ad improvvisarsi Psicologo psichiatra medicolegale ecce ecc. stà inquinando tutte le scene sia mediatiche che investigative per ultima la marchetta di ieri sera sù MATRIX dove c'era solo lui e il suo pool ad difendere RAFF AELE senza nessuna controparte..troppo comodo
Father Sollecito, he is doing the psychologist, psychiatrist, medical legal expert ecc ecc and in addition is trying to pollute all the scenes, either mediatic or investigative, the last one at matrix last night where he was alone and his team to defend Raffaele without any counterpart ... too much comfortable
Thanks fran for your "matizaciones", don't know how to say that in English or Italian ... your precisions are extremely helpful.
Here's something else for you, and principally for Damian, who asked me to listen to the first 4 minutes of one of the parts of the most recent Matrix show:
http://www.video.mediaset.it/vid...zio&
from=matrix
This is what I understood, in paraphrasing and transliteration:
((This part of the show starts with Enrico Mentana, moderator of the Matrix show, speaking by telephone connection with Daddy. The latter is visually represented on the TV screen with a photo.))
Enrico Mentana: Can you hear me, Dr. Sollecito?
Daddy: ... I still don't understand why it is being said that there was more than one person involved in the death of the girl. I would like to make reference to a legal expert opinion written by a forensic doctor, Professor Torre ((?)), who maintains that the girl was immobilised and in any case suffocated, before the knife injuries occurred, and that that contributed to her death.
So I don't understand why they insist that there was more than one person who committed the crime. Insisting in four suspects ((AK, RS, PL, RHG)) when the only thing that is for sure is that Rudy was there. Raffaele didn't know Rudy. Raffaele only casually knew Patrick because he went to Patrick's bar a couple of times ...
((Daddy having finished his comment, Enrico and Lawyer Brusco, one of RS's legal team, start talking on camera. After a couple of minutes, you suddenly hear a familiar voice in the background: it's Daddy, who hasn't hung up, and starts making further points. Finally the Matrix technicians realise who's speaking and they put up his photo again))
Daddy: ... so the only reason Raffaele is implicated is because of this girl ...
Enrico Mentana: Well, we have to keep in mind that just today the judge, in rejecting Rudy's appeal to leave prison on bail, wrote a report in which he underlines the serious implication of all three (AK, RS, RHG) in the crime.
Daddy: Obviously, the magistrate in Perugia thinks in his own manner. I only ask him to think of the truth.
-------------
Well, that's what I pick up from the interview. Daddy is pushing the following points:
1) whatever knife was used to injure the victim doesn't matter so much, because the principal injuries she suffered / factors of death, were due to suffocation
2) there was only one killer, probably RHG; Raffaele had nothing to do with it, the only reason he entered the picture is because his girlfriend got caught up in the investigation.
The only paraphrased comment I'm not too sure about is "before the knife injuries occurred", I'm not sure about exact detail there, he did refer to the knife in that sort of context.
Fran, if you get a moment, could you confirm that knife business. Thanks.
RobertM the Omagh case is very particular to Low Count DNA. im no expert but it involves 'growing' DNA from specs that are 1 millionth of a millimeter in size. the point of the growing is to get enough DNA material to test. the results often produce incomplete strands and are very prone to error by contamination with such very very small amounts being used and 'grown'.
the problem in this NI case is that such a susceptable process was not handled in a manner which would reduce the chance of error and zero-chance contamination.
if it had been just regular DNA tests then the procedures used by forensics WOULD have been sufficient. the trouble is the prosecution tried to deny the vulnerability of the Low Count DNA method.
.
Kermit, first of all I want to explain better what i wrote before: RS's father suggested that the shoeprint was a manipulation FROM THE START
regarding the video RS's father just said that the knife injures were the cause of death -- your point 1) is not correct I am afraid
There is no trace of RS on the knife so he is pretty ok about that I suppose
also judges take a very dim view of either prosecution or defense (and sometimes both) continually denying the facts when they are patently obvious. such denials are fatal to the chances of success of the offending side.
this NI trial was just heard by a single judge with no jury under measures brought in to stop jury intimidation.
back to the big a, i hope she does the whole year in jail even if they never get it together to press charges. she deserves reflective time away from society for accusing an innocent man in murder and for her callous attitude towards the murder and the trust put in her by others.
no matter what the boig a will make millions from this 'situation' in or out of jail and will have all the casual sex she she ever dreamed of.
maybe she could write a book called 'if i had did it (sic)'
haha
.
Fran, thanks for clearing that up, Damian, take note!!
It's time for me to go to Berlitz.
Kermit, in additoìion RS's father would like to point out that Meredith's DNA has been found near the handle and not on the point of the knife
I've to go now
CIAO
sorry to post repeatedly (i hate it too)
does anyone know if the big a has actually failed to account for an article of clothing (sweatshirt has been mentioned here)?
i just wonder if the big a and the boyfriend may have keep 'items of interest' that belong to the other in order to seal their pact of mutual cooperation. that is if one goes all out and spills the beans the other could then reveal the whereabouts of the 'item' hidden that implicates the other.
the vampire was setup no doubt and i like somebody's (cant recall) post about how he would have been the perfect patsy but for the unfortunate finding of ther phones and the arrival of the postals to the ohuse of horrors meant the length of time that was expected to pass before the body was found was cut down by 2 days.
it is odd that the big a showered after finding the door open to her house. i wouldnt have without a through search of the house and im a bloke, most of my girlfriends have been nervous about showers after seeing psycho (and no witty posters not cause of me).
anyhow the occult nature of this crime is something that the authorites (including vatican) would want to keep undercovers.
i recall the vampire report said 'powerful' but unknown motives behind crime. i dont think the report said 'baffled'. any reference help appreciated...
.
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Just an FYI
"DATELINE" REPORTS ON SEATTLE COLLEGE STUDENT AMANDA KNOX - FRIDAY, DEC. 21
"DATELINE" TRAVELS TO PERUGIA TO REPORT ON SEATTLE COLLEGE STUDENT AMANDA KNOX'S ALLEGED INVOLVEMENT IN THE MURDER OF HER ENGLISH ROOMATE FRIDAY, DEC. 21 at 9PM
Gains Unprecedented Access to Investigators' Crime Scene Evidence
Broadcast Includes Bar Owner and Suspect Patrick Lumumba's First North American Television Interview
(New York) December 20, 2007 When Amanda Knox, the 20-year-old American language student from Seattle, went abroad to Perugia this fall no one from home ever imagined that the seemingly sweet and innocent girl would end up being a main suspect in the unimaginable murder of her English roommate, Meredith Kercher. As theories and intrigue continue to swirl around this horrific tale of drugs, violence and group sex, three people remain at the center of this investigation: roommate Amanda Knox, her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and a Perugian street hustler, Rudy Herman Guede.
In an hour-long report airing this Friday, Dec. 21 (9:00 p.m., et) on "Dateline," correspondent Dennis Murphy and former FBI profiler and NBC News analyst Clint Van Zandt travel to the Italian hillside north of Rome to help untangle the conflicting stories and interpret the crime-scene evidence not yet reported on. Additionally, Knox's college friends speak out for the first time and Murphy sits down with one of the first suspects in the case who has been released from jail, bar owner Patrick Lumumba, for his first North American television interview.
When Murphy asks Lumumba why he thinks Knox lied about his being there the night of Kercher's murder, he says, "I think Amanda wanted to derail the investigation. That's what I think. She must have realized that the investigation was leading to her and must have thought that if she mentioned me because I'm black then the investigator's attention would shift to me. Its classic." Lumumba also tells "Dateline" he thinks Knox wants to be the center of attention and that, "she's a person capable of doing anything to be in the spotlight."
Hi Steve and all, gave up for a while, but am back now the comments have been returned to Haloscan and to the topic, & still following as and when I can. Had to check in also to say, lol @ muddy- 'plonker' hits the nail on the head (in the politest way possible...i try to be a laydee, so when a half-rhyme beginning with 'w' came to mind i decided not to comment it...and then you typed my thoughts!) xin- i hear ya, not only sexism but childishness in the extreme. Seriously some unresolved 'mommy' issues there! best to just ignore tho. it is clearly NOT you...
Nothing to say about the case @ the moment, and don't really have time to do more than read anyway, with how 'prolific' some people are, so choosing not to post. Another observation- from a distance, it's beginning to feel a little like 'rise of the sockpuppets II' in here...would hardly be surprised to see 'chikita bakana' rear it's head again 
Thanks to all of you who do have the time to have continued making genuine constructive and thoughtful comments- its been an interesting read. What a confusing and disturbing case.
Thinking of Meredith's family this coming week.
ER
Rob has been pointing out a potential occult aspect to the murder. For a while I've had a theory on this, but it's somewhat sensational so I didn't post. But since there continues to be a lack of motive, maybe it's worth putting out there.
Rudy's youtube video shows him talking about vampires and acting very strangely, almost possessed. He claims to have met Meredith at the Halloween party, where she was dressed as a vampire with blood red lips. Maybe they didn't actually meet, maybe he just saw her. Seeing her like that triggered his vampiric desires. The two shallow knife wounds were inflicted to mimic a vampire bite. A long time ago, someone (Pinecone?) mentioned that ingesting large amounts of blood would cause, to put it nicely, a need to go to the bathroom. The motive could be that the vampire within him was set loose.
I realize this theory doesn't explain the bulk of the evidence, but perhaps can account for an occult motive, if there is one?
La Stampa 12/21/07:
Mixture of Meredith's and Amanda's DNA Found on Tap
The hypothesis: "Washing Took Place After the Murder"
The position of Amanda Knox has worsened. Scientific Police identified two new traces of blood and DNA attributable to Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher in the bathroom of the house in Via della Pergola, in Perugia, where the English student was killed the night November first.
Blood on the sink
In particular, the outcome of investigations by the police and scientific consultants,on (Corsican?) elements carried out last week in the cottage where the girls lived, the DNA of American student Amanda Knox was found in blood on the sink tap, and the mixture of DNA belonging to Amanda and Meredith has been identified within the same basin, near the tap.
Amanda home
Traces of both Amanda's and Meredith's DNA (mixed) were then found by the Police Scientific experts on a box of plastic cotton swabs next to the sink in the bathroom. The new evidence strengthens even more investigators' belief that Amanda was at home during the murder of Meredith and that she participated in the murder.
The DNA of Knox, in fact, had already been found by scientific police experts on the handle of the knife seized at the home of Raffaele, with the DNA of Kercher found on the tip, while DNA mixture of the two students had been identified in the bidet in the bathroom of the cottage. The new evidence, Amanda's DNA found on the second tap, make investigators speculate that blood lost by the American student (colluttazione?), was perhaps a result of a blow to the nose. The small residual DNA mixture of the two girls found in the sink might have occurred as dirty(bloody) hands were washed in the sink, hands that may have touched the box of cotton swabs placed nearby, leaving the new evidence.
http://tinyurl.com/yth833
I'd expect to find a person's DNA at her residence. The residual DNA mixture in the sink could be due to their brushing their teeth at that sink.
BD
I’ve often felt that Rudy had some sort of blood fetish that kicked in at some stage in this murder. Certainly would account for the amount of blood, and the nature of the neck wounds. This may have been his proclivity and not necessarily shared by the whole group. Rudy would have been attracted by Meredith and her fake blood. Didn’t have to meet her and could have seen pictures on internet. Maybe contacted AK so he could come over to the house. It could have been one factor, but certainly not the only one. I think a confrontation occurred between others , giving Rudy a rare opportunity to have his way with Meredith w/o others bothering him.
Hi gang!
Looks like the only thing new around here has been the board changes. Seriously, outside of the discovery of the 2nd knife, it feels like groundhog day. I know a lot of evidence places all three (Rudy, Amanda, and Rafe) at the scene of the crime, but I wonder whether or not we will ever know what really happened in the cottage that night.
Question for our Italian friends:
Under Italian law, is this evidence truly enough to convict each of the suspects to lengthy prison sentences?
LUKE -- see, we all thought long & hard about you, and YOU came back! As to your question, let me beat Pinecone to his standard response: "What evidence? and which person?" But overall its a good one for our Italian posters. Wish one was in law like seattleite. Good to have you back!
Rob,
not far from the same area in the 70s and 80s the logest and most discussed serial killer case in Italy took place, the "monster of Florence". A man at the end was convicted together with some helpers and then died of a suspect death. They have talked about hidden messengers of the crimes whoch were mainly sexual with an occult nature. Other misterious death has sorrounded the case, one of them near Perugia. Judge Bufali was one of the people who worked on the case.
other mysterious deaths, sorry
I'd expect to find a person's DNA at her residence. The residual DNA mixture in the sink could be due to their brushing their teeth at that sink.
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 12:38 pm | #
Additional details from Repubblica 12/21/07:
These two tracks mixed DNA belonging to the student in Seattle and the victim, Meredith Kercher, isolated from many experts on blood stains found in one of two bathrooms of the house on Via della Pergola.
In particular, the DNA was isolated on two distinct blood stains: one found in the sink, close to the tap, and the other on a box of cotton swabs supported on the edge of the basin.
The bathroom where the DNA was isolated is next to the chamber Meredith's bedroom, not the bathroom where they found DNA of Rudy. The findings launched last week by scientific police experts in Rome, led by Alberto Intini, together with consultants of suspects, have therefore given further results, deemed very important...
http://tinyurl.com/3ygjmx
I thought it was really interesting that the door in the wall around the town wasn't open until 8AM, so the cell phone was discarded after that. I wonder what time Rudy made his escape?
I thought it was really interesting that the door in the wall around the town wasn't open until 8AM, so the cell phone was discarded after that. I wonder what time Rudy made his escape?
BeenHereAllAlong | 12.21.07 - 1:36 pm | #
Is it confirmed that it was Rudy that got rid of the phones?
Oh--tx!
How so? Fingerprints?
BeenHere,
I think annarbor was asking if it was confirmed not stating that it was.
Oh, sorry--I misunderstood! I don't think it has been confirmed that he did. Although he probably did.
No problem--I think that it's the general consensus that Rudy dumped them, but I'm not sure why.
Coyotewaits,
I don't think anyone here trusts the confession(s) supposedly made by AK. However, we do mistrust her own constant, conflicted, bizarre public statements about the murder; from the false claims made about Patrick Lumumba up to her confused statements about where she was and what she was doing on the night of the murder.
Her own statements, in my opinion, only serve to point to her own guilt or involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3084751.ece
New article in The Times. It covers the police forensic report detailed the La Stampa article, posted by Ann Arbor, above.
This article includes the following police information about the mixed DNA:
"Police said that the “mixed DNA” of Ms Knox and Ms Kercher was on two separate bloodstains, one inside the basin near the plughole and the other on a box of cottonwool balls on the side of the basin. Police said that there were two bathrooms at the cottage, one next to Ms Kercher's bedroom - where the mixed DNA was found in the basin - and another one in which the traces of Mr Guede's DNA were earlier found, including traces on faeces left in the lavatory."
Luke,
Good to have you back. Somehow, RobertM was correct in assuming that you would just show up here. There really has been nothing new on this case since you left, other than the interview with AK that ended in her supposed hysterics and her supposed refusal to answer additional questions.
There has been so much speculation about all the circumstantial evidence, that they only way to determine reality is to wait for a 'trial' and watch the cross-examination of the prosecutorial evidence. When this will happen is anyone's guess.
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 2:05 pm posted:
"Coyotewaits,
I don't think anyone here trusts the confession(s) supposedly made by AK. However, we do mistrust her own constant, conflicted, bizarre public statements about the murder; from the false claims made about Patrick Lumumba up to her confused statements about where she was and what she was doing on the night of the murder.
Her own statements, in my opinion, only serve to point to her own guilt or involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher."
bpcl,
bold highlights mine
Did you not mean to say "we do trust"?
bpcl: wrote "I don't think anyone here trusts the confession(s) supposedly made by AK. However, we do mistrust her own constant, conflicted, bizarre..."
From the time her lawyers came on the scene I am sure they told her "shut up....you were not there...let's see what they got." Prior to that I think she didn't read the disclaimer on the State Department website about how an American overseas is subject to the laws of the country they are visiting.
I do believe she didn't realize she was a suspect at first...I do believe she was subjected to a good naked light bulb interrogation (when she says she was hit on the head I always see that scene as a cop with a rolled up newspaper--not a fact just speculating).
Though there have been many references to "hash" and some theories about date rape drugs she may have ingested, I am waiting for some word about how much she drank that night ("vodka is my poinson") iePolish student testimony etc.
Cause you know what...if she is telling her truth in her early statements, it sounds like a classic alcoholic blackout.
from the URL posted by Viv
During her interrogation this week Ms Knox broke down “in an hysterical fit” when asked why she had accused Mr Lumumba, and how she knew details of Ms Kercher's murder if she was not present. These included her statement that the body was lying next to the wardrobe - where police believe Ms Kercher was in fact killed - when the body was found next to the bed, where it had apparently been dragged in a duvet.
Coyotewaits,
Wait a second there! You did not finish my post. AK has made numerous statements after the fact, both in her diary and in her interviews with the Police as is posted. You cannot say that she has been in alcoholic blackout during all these times.
Coyotewaits,
YES to your statement of fact "We do not trust"
Coyotewaits,
I am going to get into trouble here sooner than later. What I meant to say was that multitude of contradictory statements made by AK after the fact, only point to her involvement in the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher.
Ms Knox broke down “in an hysterical fit” when asked why she had accused Mr Lumumba,and how she knew details of Ms Kercher's murder if she was not present...
Geeeeez, If these questions caused her to dissolve into hysterical shaking fits, her head may explode if they ask her how her DNA and Meredith's DNA got mixed together in blood spots in the bathroom sink...
sorry, just thinking
bpcl:
If she is honestly trying to remember this horrific thing, he inability to remember "correctly" or even at all through "flashes" could make anyone unglued and of course for Amanda it would be a short trip.
BD | 12.21.07 - 12:06 pm
the vampire said he met Meredith at the spanish house party and said to her 'do you want to suck my blood cause we took your cup?'
he was referring to the rugby world cup recently won by south africa vs england in the final.
there is a lot of fucked up shit going on with this case for sure.
.
Steve has a new Radar article which would be nice if we recommended if we choose to. And he also has a new post up about loosing his job. Go here to get to the main page here to see:
crimehttp://www.truecrimeweblog.com/
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 2:21 pm posted:
"Coyotewaits,
Wait a second there! You did not finish my post. AK has made numerous statements after the fact, both in her diary and in her interviews with the Police as is posted. You cannot say that she has been in alcoholic blackout during all these times."
bpcl, I am sorry, you are obviously repling to the wrong person here...not sure who you meant your reply was for.
fan thanks for that info about the occult murders around Perugia linked to the occult monster of florence.
the authorities are scared and i have read that satanic rituals are being reported with greater frequency in central and northern italy.
it is funny how posters are reluctant to consider this possibility but will go off on equally bizarre theories.
i hope pineyconey dont blow a gasket when the big a finally melts down and confesses all. bless.
.
that was a thanks to FRAN not fan...sorry.
.
chris | 12.21.07 - 2:46 pm posted:
"Steve has a new Radar article which would be nice if we recommended if we choose to. And he also has a new post up about loosing his job. Go here to get to the main page here to see:
crimehttp://www.truecrimeweblog.com/"
Chris, that URL points just to the front page to Steve's Blog. Could you kindly post the actual link to the subject you are referring to: the Radar article and job lost. Thanks.
Chris:
Sorry, ignore my request. I now see what you are referring to on his main page.
OT)) Chris: The closing and layoff by CNN of the Crime Library resource and contributing editors to which Steve was one.
I haven't been writing for Crime Library for over a year. Them closing now has no effect on me at this point -- Radar pays better than CL did, anyway. But I would appreciate anyone familiar with the Crime Library coming to the entry to discuss it if they like.
Thanks!
Steve
ann arbor | 12.21.07 - 12:31 pm | #
--wow.
So happy to see erhw, AndyT rob,damian, and Luke here. We've missed you. Our chanting led by RobertM worked.
and thanks for the Dateline prompt, urge, sollecito et al. I'm a big fan of Clint VZ.
here is the link to Steve's recent Radar story.
http://tinyurl.com/2hd3k6
Before I mistakenly: put the word crime infront of http://www.truecrimeweblog.com/
and what I said appeared as though he was losing his job at Radar. Sorry.
DNA in the sink gets answered rather easily as its the sink AK & Meredith SHARED. And stuff gets mixed together when water is also involved.
DNA on the cotton swabs is a little trickier. Are these drops or smears? Drops can be deposited separately (plunk plunk) or come already mixed and then smeared, as in wiped off. Report does not say which. Answer is still the same: because its a SHARED bathroom.
Where else would you expect to find blood from two people in one small area? The bathroom they shared, of course. And then there's the matter of the TIME of deposit. If drops on the swabs only overlay & Amanda's overlays Meredith's, well, then, of course, Meredith's got there first & Amanda's later. If completely separate drops and/or if smeared, no way to tell TIME or DEPOSIT sequence at all. All that blood in a shared bathroom tells you is that yes the women shared the bathroom that they were supposed to share.
The blood in the shared bathroom as evidence AK was there on night of Nov 1 is bupkiss. They really have to come up with more or its the flimsiest cicrumstantial case against her. But that takes us back to the question posed above, re Italian jurisprudence: does such evidence satisfy the reasonable doubt requirment in its totality than each piece evidence separately? (The so-called confession as written wouldn't make it past an American evidentiary hearing. Now if ILE had taped the whole thing, THAT might make it past a US judge, IF the prosecutor decided that the "Chicago behavior" of his cops wouldn't undermine the case entirely. See cw's entry on the curent Fox case as above.]
xin - blog pics very itnersting & idea for the blog too. Care to make short explanation as I didn't see a Me Page there? [Short means less words than I use!!]
So, does this finding of Amanda's DNA, in a bathroom she shared, mean there was no clean up? What about the other housemates? Was none of their DNA found? If not, why? Did they do the clean up?
(((OT: RM...Let's see...short version of lack of bio (me?) page....hmmmm...take a look around. I just finished a small handmade book, edition of 10,and the pix are from that.
eventually i'll link it to my website about nontraditional (from 70s) performance, mail, installation in public places art in LA,some NY. Google is your friend. I have a sweet collection of art ephemera.)))
The blood in the shared bathroom as evidence AK was there on night of Nov 1 is bupkiss-RobertM
So, does this finding of Amanda's DNA, in a bathroom she shared, mean there was no clean up? What about the other housemates? Was none of their DNA found? If not, why? Did they do the clean up?
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 4:09 pm | #
If I recall, the reason that the LE originally stated that this bloodspot was significant was because it appeared to have been deposited after a thorough cleaning of the sink. There was no other blood/DNA found there. Ill have to look back to verify the link.
The other housemates shared the other bathroom, and have alibis that stand up.
Google may be my friend, but its no real substitute for a fine woman like yourself, nor for the accompanying wine from a micro-vineyard and the song of poets. (Shall I compare thee...) Will S-troll the electronic highway in pursuit.
Does anyone else find it paradoxical or amusing that on the one hand AKs team/supporters say that it's legitimate that her prints aren't in her own home yet that at the same time it's legitimate that she left stale blood on a regularly used bathroom?
I mean wich one is it? she spent so much time in that house she bled on the bathroom and it's an old blood drop. Or that she spent so little time there she didn't leave fingerprints?
ps: any updates on Molly Rominelli?
As to CLEANING -- By cleaning we should agree that that means no fingerprints primarily, and no extraneous things like human blood & hair. Given that, one of the magistrates indicated that the rooms "cleaned" were (1) Amanda's bedroom, and (2) the kitchen, except for that one cup with the one fingerprint of Amanda's. The shared bathroom was not mentioned to the best of my memory.
NOTE:
Amanda's now-consistent version is that when she returned to the house, despite the front door being unlocked (which, like rob said, would have creeped me out), she then took a shower and presumably also used the sink there. Again, if asked as a question specifically--did you clean the bathroom afer you took a shower, there's been no leak on that.
If the bathroom was NOT cleaned as per above, then her stuff & Meredith's would be all over it. And one would expect to find things like blood deposits int he sink.
Omagh Bombing & LCN DNA
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 7:51 am | #
that's more to do with the McCann case. are they even using it in this case. maybe when it comes to the knife. But then, RS bloody footprint & no pc activity & bleach rceipts (given his maids account) are enough for him.
I'm curious whether any of the women here think that they often bleed into their bathroom sink.
I grew up sharing a bath with 5 sisters, and once we got to high school age, other than menstrual blood (which, as it has been mentioned here, is discernable from other blood), we just didn't cut ourselves on a regular basis, and if one of us did, it was unlikely that another did at the same time.
Men shave their faces over the sink, but most women shave their legs and underarms in the shower or bath. If a women cuts her leg shaving, she will take care of it over the tub, not hike her leg up over the sink....
Do most of the woment here agree? Or am i off with this supposition?
I guess I don't see this as circumstantial evidence. And I wonder what would be considered concrete evidence for Pinecone and RobertM. Would there have to be photos of the crime in progress? Plus signed confessions given freely by suspects who aren't questioned by police? I'm not trying to be snarky, but calling this blood evidence the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence seems to me to be a stretch...Thoughts? Ladies?
manda's now-consistent version is that when she returned to the house....she then took a shower and presumably also used the sink there. Again, if asked as a question specifically--did you clean the bathroom afer you took a shower, there's been no leak on that. Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 4:36 pm | #
New reports (i'll post links in a min) suggest AKs blood has been found on a box of q-tips/cotton wool earbuds on the sink?
she did mentions RS cleaning her ears.
she must have either lent over that box, or had her own blood on her own hand, or RS had her blood on his hand.
I don't think she had a nose bleed, I think she cut herself during the attack maybe on that knife found at RS house, or else it's her menstral blood.
The One Key Place That Wasn't Cleaned
That was Meredith's room. ILE have found a LOT of stuff there. Including bits & pieces of Rudy and it still seems DNA on swabs that does not match any of the three. (We haven't heard much about that recently.) What hasn't been found AT ALL are bits & pieces of either Amanda or Rafe (except for the shoe imprint supposedly). IF Amanda was a direct participant in any way (as I have argued on Halo I & II), THEN something of her should be in & among the post-murder debris. The absence of evidence works both ways, of course: her alleged cleaning can still be related to the murder, or not, even if she was never in Meredith's room at the time. But having NO EVIDENCE as to her presence in the room before during & after Meredith's death puts my theory on shaky ground, as it does the ILE reconstruction.
To believe anyone was involved in the killing, I'd have to see their DNA in the murder room or on the victim.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 3:57 pm posted:
"DNA in the sink gets answered rather easily as its the sink AK & Meredith SHARED. And stuff gets mixed together when water is also involved.
DNA on the cotton swabs is a little trickier. Are these drops or smears? Drops can be deposited separately (plunk plunk) or come already mixed and then smeared, as in wiped off. Report does not say which. Answer is still the same: because its a SHARED bathroom.
Where else would you expect to find blood from two people in one small area? The bathroom they shared, of course. And then there's the matter of the TIME of deposit. If drops on the swabs only overlay & Amanda's overlays Meredith's, well, then, of course, Meredith's got there first & Amanda's later. If completely separate drops and/or if smeared, no way to tell TIME or DEPOSIT sequence at all. All that blood in a shared bathroom tells you is that yes the women shared the bathroom that they were supposed to share.
The blood in the shared bathroom as evidence AK was there on night of Nov 1 is bupkiss. They really have to come up with more or its the flimsiest cicrumstantial case against her. But that takes us back to the question posed above, re Italian jurisprudence: does such evidence satisfy the reasonable doubt requirment in its totality than each piece evidence separately? (The so-called confession as written wouldn't make it past an American evidentiary hearing. Now if ILE had taped the whole thing, THAT might make it past a US judge, IF the prosecutor decided that the "Chicago behavior" of his cops wouldn't undermine the case entirely. See cw's entry on the curent Fox case as above.]"
Glad to see your postings now reflecting rational and critical thinking with regards to the nature of circumstantial evidence, even though it is physical and scientifically analyzed bits of matter from the crime scene.
Such postings from a rational thinker who is the most erudite poster amongst us is welcomed by this poster who has been pointing this out for several days, (yet having a hard time getting anyones attention without pulling off a satirical post that certainly did wake people up...but then again only on the wrong side of the bed. Keep an open mind folks as to what exactly you are reading in the press before drawing conclusions of its impact on the guilt or innocence of any of the suspects.
Thanks Robert M.
Intini said blood belonging to the two women was also found on a box of cotton swabs on the side of the sink. He told CNN that drops of Kercher's blood were also found on the bathroom floor.... Intini said the new evidence was found in a separate part of the same sink, although he did not specify where. Asked why it had taken so long to come to light, he said forensics had uncovered over 200 "organic" pieces of evidence from the murder scene and the process of identifying where they all came from was taking a long time. http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORL...kercher.murder/
--------------------------------
Police said that the “mixed DNA” of Ms Knox and Ms Kercher was on two separate bloodstains, one inside the basin near the plughole and the other on a box of cottonwool balls on the side of the basin.
[[so it's eithe ear buds, or balls. 2 different uses, no?]]]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3084751.ece
----------
http://www.thefutoncritic.com/
li...d=20071220nbc01
anyone in the US/Seattle catch this. PLs 1st US interview & cllaims to unprecidented access to DNA/forensic evidence.
If I recall, the reason that the LE originally stated that this bloodspot was significant was because it appeared to have been deposited after a thorough cleaning of the sink. There was no other blood/DNA found there. Ill have to look back to verify the link.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 4:19 pm | #
haven't seen that. cool.
I don't believe that they found OJ's DNA at the crime scene, although there was a ton of circumstantial evidence--and perhaps that's one of the reasons(ha!)that he was found not guilty. Anyone here believe he was innocent?
a2/annarbor - a Tip of my full-of-DNA Gillette Turbo Razor in your direction for discerning that WHERE matters!! It slipped my mind, for sure, especially in my now extended single state. I'd suppose the vast number of Ladies shave in the shower/tub. I've known a few to do otherwise, especially for a quick clean-up, using the top of the toilet seat as a foot rest. But, yes, blood mix for women sharing the same bathroom would most likely be in the tub or shower.
[Johnny Depp in SWEENY TOOD, THE DEMON BARBER premieres tonight around the US, speaking of razors & blood.]
((OT: you are too kind, RM, watch for email in a bit with some clues. as we get older, our story gets longer, so it's here and there.))
A2 (A squared) is the shortened version of the city name commonly used here. I switched to annarbor when we went to Disqus because I mistakenly thought we needed a six letter user name...I'll answer to either, though!
Johnny Depp
swoon
and don't forget
From Hell
early
plays Jack the Ripper.
ah so many choices
....cliff...johnny
I don't believe that they found OJ's DNA at the crime scene, although there was a ton of circumstantial evidence--and perhaps that's one of the reasons(ha!)that he was found not guilty. Anyone here believe he was innocent?
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:01 pm | #
they found poor nicole's blood a little drip on the inside part (that's invisible when closed) of driver's door in the bronco. there was dna, but the jury thought "c'mon...that TINY little speck?"
there are those in the know in LA who think that jury was bought off.
there are those in the know in LA who think that jury was bought off.
xin | 12.21.07 - 5:12 pm | #
How much money do you 'spose the Solecito family has? Hmmmmm.
well, PINECONE, with 200+ pieces of organic substance, of which I suspect most is still being processed, you may get your wish.
Thanks, LOZ for the update links. Stuff new to us such as "He told CNN that drops of Kercher's blood were also found on the [small] bathroom floor....
Well, Meredith didn't put them there. Rudy could have, but we know he used the large bathroom. Unless you want to suppose Rudy left the death room to wash his bloody hands in the small bathroom, then decided to use the large bathroom for his other needs. [Naaah.] Easier to suppose Rudy used the large bathroom because the small bathroom was already in use.
Oh, a semi-aside, not sure where I saw the following today, but don't think it was above. A Piece of Self-Defense Advice for the Ladies: Remember you have TEETH. If being attacked, your teeth can do a lot of damage, plus teeth bites leave distinctive marks on the attacker for latter reference. Men & children should remember this too, of course. In another case that has finished adjudication, two young women tried to talk, not bite. Perhaps one could have escaped.
How much money do you 'spose the Solecito family has? Hmmmmm.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:14 pm |
certainly enough to do some significant damage...like screw up evidence, for example, if not climibing higher up the food chain.
does anybody know if scotland yard can come into this crime (thru proper diplomatic channels of course); a Brit was killed in Italy.
Yo--Loz--very nice work. Thanks.
x
Oh, a semi-aside, not sure where I saw the following today, but don't think it was above. A Piece of Self-Defense Advice for the Ladies: Remember you have TEETH. ..Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 5:24 pm | #
One of my former assistants told me the best trick--she escaped rape, she said she learned this from having five brothers.
The bad guy came up behind her and put his hand over her mouth. she took both of her hands, put them on his hand across her mouth, and pushed hard, IN. Then she bit the hell out of him and he split.
Pretty smart.
The implication of both AK and MK blood being found, some mixed, in the shared bathroom as circumstantial evidence is thus: It does indicate that the blood of both women is recent, had not been removed in cleaning (obviously) and meant at some time in the previous 24 hours (assuming evidence gathering is late on the 2nd early on the 3rd) AK deposited her blood there and someone else deposited MK blood there. This is a reasonable assumption by the prosecution to present to a judge/jury. No challenges to that.
The circumstantial implication that AK blood could have already been there, say from earlier in the day of the 1st and not cleaned up by her, (menstrual blood on bidet, on her hand transfered to sink, nosebleed, cut,etc.) and then that the killer in washing up deposited MK blood over and about the same areas. Reasonable assumption by the defense to present to a judge/jury.
When it comes to circumstantial evidence it becomes obviously the preponderance in sum of all such circumstantial evidence which the judge/jury takes into account. Obviously in the OJ criminal trial it didn't fly with the jury (given the great defense attorney skills he had and the incompetent LA district attorneys, close editorial) but in so many other cases it is quite the opposite. Even when the "c" evidence is weak some juries will take the preponderance of that circumstantial evidence, even with no real physical evidence added, and convict.
Opinion: If what we are reading in the Italian press really reflects what evidence is available and is true then it appears to me that prosecutors have a good case of circumstantial evidence to, at least, implicate and hopefully convince judge/jury that AK participated in the killing (not necessarily the actual act) of MK.
On the other hand, with a defense team like OJ had, Robert M and I have been demonstrating how to pick apart circumstantial evidence to make the preponderance of it reflect "not guilty". No one, not the least I, is trying to change anyones mind here and how they feel themselves about what they are concluding from what they read. But I am saying, and I hope Robert means the same, is that it is always worthy to keep an open mind when it comes to circumstantial evidence.
CHRIS - I was the one who said suffocation from a pillow can cause death,fx of hyoid bone, and bruises to mouth and gums - at the end of halo#2 - it is shaped like a horseshoe and you can feel it right under your chin and move it back and forth - maybe how rudy got his fingerprint on the pillow -
if the knife punctured the external jugular vein (found between the lower jaw and clavicle)then yes she would bleed out very slowly -
raff and father say he was home all nite and the only reason he is in jail is because -
ak implicates him - so- why have they not said she was not at raff's house that nite - she says she was there all nite ???
thanx to all you guys here cuz my puter just freezes up at steves disqus place -
As the Portuguese have had to turn to the UK crime labs, both LE and private, for DNA runs, the ILE would have to conclude that they LACK certain advanced techniques for, say, separation of multiple-mixed or highly degraded DNA. I'd think that CSI-Italy would be reluctant to do so, but would see use of UK labs as providing confirming analysis on the tough issues. Dr. S is likely looking abroad to line up other labs for an "objective" analysis IF anything from the 200+ pieces puts Rafe in Meredith's room. And that would include analysis of the shoe-sole imprint. As to Amanda, HER blood is actually where you'd suppose you'd find it.
CW concluded just above: "it is always worthy to keep an open mind when it comes to circumstantial evidence." To which I would think Pinecone would say "its necessary to do so for ANY evidence." And so applies a very strict Occam's Razor* to all this (i.e. Rudy did it all). And I certainly agree, as an historian, that each separate evidence has to be evaluated for its validity. See above about GIGO & the Omagh fiasco.
But evidence exists in context, and a piece of self-evident context is that none of this happens without Amanda's presence. As xin says, she's the connector. To me she's the catalyst, and yes, despite the current lack of specific evidence beyond the blood spots which MAY have been deposited in the small bathroom AFTER it was clean (but we don't know that for sure), I KNOW she's somewhere in or near that house as Meredith dies.
* footnote: Hhhmmm. IF Johnny Depp played Franciscan friar William of Okham elucidating logic itself and the logic of faith to his male studnets, would the Ladies STILL swoon?
later los amigos
Loz | 12.21.07 - 4:34 pm posted:
"Does anyone else find it paradoxical or amusing that on the one hand AKs team/supporters say that it's legitimate that her prints aren't in her own home yet that at the same time it's legitimate that she left stale blood on a regularly used bathroom?
I mean wich one is it? she spent so much time in that house she bled on the bathroom and it's an old blood drop. Or that she spent so little time there she didn't leave fingerprints?"
Loz, considering that I am not a supporter of AK per se, but that I am a supporter of law, fair practices thereof (ha ha, in most cases, doubtful) and analyzing the evidence to all possibilities, not just those thought because of a preconceived idea of what happened: I think the implication is that if she did clean up to remove traces of herself being at the crime scene when the crime happened, she did a very poor job of it, not cleaning the bathroom better or not at all;
or purposefully not cleaning the bathroom not thinking some of her own blood could be there, again pretty stupid;
or in fact she never did any clean up at anytime after the crime which is a possibility.
Given the last possibility, LE has put together other circumstantial evidence to support their contention that there was a clean up for the reasons you also point out (no fingerprints in her own house/room). If they can demonstrate to a judge/jury there was a cleanup, then of course the defense for AK could not have it both ways in trying to counter that circumstantial conjecture. So good point!
I agree with AnnArbor and Loz. The issue re: female blood in the bathroom is being misunderstood by the male posters here. It doesn't happen that often. When it does happen, it is wiped up. It is very unusual for a woman to leave blood in the bathroom especially when it's shared with others. If it's menstrual blood, it would be on the toilet seat or on the floor near the toilet, not on the basin near the plughole or on a box of cotton balls/swabs. Menstrual blood has a different quality to it. If Amanda's blood is in the small bathroom with Meredith's, it is because Amanda held the knife.
Loz | 12.21.07 - 4:34 pm
coyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 5:58 pm
Your points about the alleged clean-up and blood drops are compelling. At the same time, I wonder if the reverse isn't true: if there was a massive clean up, so exacting that only one print of Amanda was found in the entire apartment, then why were stains of blood left? Why not clean up the sink where you washed off someone's blood and your own if you were so meticulous as to wipe even your own room of your fingerprints?
Also, if the ILE conjectures that Amanda's blood may have come from a bloody nose she got as a result of a blow during a struggle, I would expect there would be traces of Amanda's blood and DNA in Meredith's room. Also, if there was a direct struggle, and Meredith was able to take a swipe at Amanda's face, you'd think there'd be Amanda's hair at the crime scene. Maybe when the forensics are done, such evidence will come to light. Maybe not.
the monster of florence wasn't he RS 'hero'?
anyway "where police believe Ms Kercher was in fact killed - when the body was found next to the bed, where it had apparently been dragged in a duvet."
why, including why staging it near the beg is better than the wardrobe, why drag it.
did they want to open the wardrobe doors?
BD | 12.21.07 - 6:26 pm | #
--I 2nd that post. my thoughts too.
* footnote: Hhhmmm. IF Johnny Depp played Franciscan friar William of Okham elucidating logic itself and the logic of faith to his male studnets, would the Ladies STILL swoon?
Yes. Yes. Yes. (whomever that is you refer to, doesn't matter if he's a Depp character) Yes.
((Just now sending Ms Alioto a card and note about Amanda.))
I am unsure of traces of AK in MKs room, she may never or very very rarely went in there while living together. Plus on the night, she might not have to have used the doorknob, YES to lock it, but she could have been careful.
The bedroom floors are tiled & wipable. indeed, RHGs bloodied prints on the pillow, but his footprints, dirt tracks or bloodied, were absent?
AKs print was found on MKs face...
Given the last possibility, LE has put together other circumstantial evidence to support their contention that there was a clean up for the reasons you also point out (no fingerprints in her own house/room). If they can demonstrate to a judge/jury there was a cleanup, then of course the defense for AK could not have it both ways in trying to counter that circumstantial conjecture. So good point!
coyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 5:58 pm | #
they can demonstrate it from luminol glowing up from the bleach too
Ann Arbor,
Do not worry too much about what others state here. They are hypotheses like yours and mine. In a way, Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly, even though some of us would like to. All three have compelling ideas about how the crime took place. I have always believed that the truth lies somewhere between RG doing everything(Pinecone's theory) to a ritualistic affair(I believe to be Coyotewaits theory) to RobertM's theory which I believe runs along the lines of Coyotewaits theory.
We have been fooled here from the beginning about what is evidence and what is not. The case started going sideways when AK framed Patrick Lumumba; and the Police followed that lead and incorrectly imprisoned him. Much of the evidence presented so far is hearsay really and we just have to wait for the trial.
For myself, I tend to follow the words said by all the suspects and look for conflicts in them; and there are many.
From their own words I can assume that something is afoot with their alibis. The real test will be the forensic evidence(when it is properly presented and cross-examined) and the strength of their individual alibis are lack thereof. Respect.
one last thing: not heard much about RS bloodied fingerprint on the inside of the door of MKs room.
Guess that can't be explained by a popular make of shoe, or him entering the room when the ILE arrived. I find it impossible to imagine he put him hand in some blood then touched the door after the crime.
In a way, Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly, even though some of us would like to... tend to follow the words said by all the suspects and look for conflicts in them
bpcl
weell said
they can demonstrate it from luminol glowing up from the bleach too
Loz | 12.21.07 - 6:51 pm |
Bleach and blood are not the only substances that can cause the luminescence. Some metals and other substances also cause the glow. Maybe there's a metallic pigment in the interior paint of that old cottage. You never can tell.
Hi Loz!
RS talked about the monster of Foligno, a man who killed two kids in the same region of Perugia (Umbria). Actually when I read Rs's blog I thought he was "trying" to be funny
In a way, Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly...
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 7:07 pm
Speaking for myself, RG has hung himself. There's nothing circumstantial about the evidence against him. It doesn't require much analysis to figure out how his DNA got where it was found.
He's had some entertaining stories. I liked the recent tale about one of the real killers wearing a white hat with a red stripe. I wonder if it was a floppy hat like the one Jeffrey MacDonald saw. The real killers might be that same gang of hippies from Fayetteville.
Loz,
Thank you for your kind comments. I, I..well for lack of better words, I have just come to the conclusion, that we have heard about as much as we are going to hear about this case, and will just have to sit back and wait for a trial. The prosecution is leaking material to see what the lawyers for the suspects will say, and the lawyers for the suspects are responding back; it other words, both sides are preparing for the real battle to come. I have this funny conspiracy theory in my mind (and I could be completely out of wack in saying this here) that this blog and others are being watched and that the Prosecution is very careful not to put out any real serious pre-trial information, for fear that it would be dissected and re-dissected by all the brilliant people here and elsewhere, all to the benefit of the defenses of the suspects.
Appears tonight's Dateline is running a two hour show on the case! (along with the Peterson case.)
Luke,
Nice to see you and glad to have your participation back!
its hard to take coyote as 'the voice of reason' considering the case was closed for this poster in mid november and the howling about Patrick's quilt and stupidity was so loud from her posted comments.
anyway i just scroll by this posters rubbish now but it sure is a lengthy job.
i have said that all along there is no evidence for us to know. just a dead girl and legal reports to read if you know italian and even the first 40 pager has blacked out segments so aint a full picture.
i want to follow the trial so will wait for that. if anything big breaks i will check you lot out again.
in the meantime heres hoping you all have a good new year, plonkers too.
rasta la bagel.
.
rob,
Merry Christmas to you too! And keep the faith!
Luke
Nice to see you and glad to have your participation back!
bpcl | 12.21.07 - 7:45 pm | #
Ditto
one more thing sorry...has it been confirmed that one of the big a's sweatshirts is missing? i neve got an answer to that.
.
Rob,
And I think the lawyers for each of the current suspects have warned them that no matter how silly they might have looked, what with their statements and all, their defense must be, "united we stand or divided we fall!"
thanks same to you bpcl. can you shed any light on the sweatshirt?
.
Didn't mean to just up and leave on you guys..
I took an early holiday to spend time with my family (who live a few hours away from me.) We spend X-mas with my wife's family.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 4:36 pm posted:
"NOTE:
Amanda's now-consistent version is that when she returned to the house, despite the front door being unlocked (which, like rob said, would have creeped me out), she then took a shower and presumably also used the sink there. Again, if asked as a question specifically--did you clean the bathroom afer you took a shower, there's been no leak on that.
If the bathroom was NOT cleaned as per above, then her stuff & Meredith's would be all over it. And one would expect to find things like blood deposits int he sink."
Does anyone really believe that she took a shower, if upon arriving she finds the door unlocked (ajar?) and upon entering the bathroom she see blood in the sink and on the floor?
? Didn't she state that these are the things that led her to return to RS and seek his counsel about something not being right about the house. In the meantime before so returning to RS she decides "oh I think I'll jump in the shower, then I'll go talk to RS". Either AK is one stupid lier (meaning like in really stupid or the 3 year old type level of lie construction) or her statements are distorted (have we seen them in writing or just excerpts published and translated by media, Robert calls them her now consistent story, re:her diary or what LE said she made in verbal statements to them?) or is the blood evidence not real (got to assume it is).
As Lox said you "can't have it both ways". In this case you can't have it all three ways.
What are conditions like in AK's prison? Food?
Anyone have any information about what her cell might look like? Is she in a single cell with those other women I read about?
What would the criminal trial be like? (jury? Judge?)
Also, any information about her parents? Is her mother Jewish, by any chance?
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 4:53 pm posted:
"That was Meredith's room. ILE have found a LOT of stuff there. Including bits & pieces of Rudy and it still seems DNA on swabs that does not match any of the three. (We haven't heard much about that recently.) What hasn't been found AT ALL are bits & pieces of either Amanda or Rafe (except for the shoe imprint supposedly). IF Amanda was a direct participant in any way (as I have argued on Halo I & II), THEN something of her should be in & among the post-murder debris. The absence of evidence works both ways, of course: her alleged cleaning can still be related to the murder, or not, even if she was never in Meredith's room at the time. But having NO EVIDENCE as to her presence in the room before during & after Meredith's death puts my theory on shaky ground, as it does the ILE reconstruction."
Most powerful observation Robert, especially the part about "it still seems DNA on swabs that does not match any of the three. (We haven't heard much about that recently.)"
Does anyone think that LE is still following up on the Mr.&Ms. CS or as Pinecone and I might suspect a RG buddy that might have been there. Especially now that LE claims there are witnesses who heard multiple people (two, three more? that's never been clear to me) running from the house.
LE's story gets stronger and stronger for me again about AK & RS involvement theory but Robert's comment jarred me back to the possibility of more than the three suspects and the victim being there. And the last RG detention hearing document disclosed the words "multiple persons" who had unfettered access to the house without stating that multiple just meant "three persons". Wonder if they do continue to look for more?
Coyotewaits,
The student wrote that she came home Thursday after spending the night elsewhere and noticed the front door to the home she shared with three roommates was open. Her three housemates appeared to be out, she said. After taking a shower, she said, she saw drops of blood on the floor and a room looked as if it had been ransacked. She began to panic when she checked Kercher's door and found it to be locked, she wrote to Paxton.
http://
seattletimes.nwsource.com...ebitaly07m.html
OT)) annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:01 pm posted:
"I don't believe that they found OJ's DNA at the crime scene, although there was a ton of circumstantial evidence--and perhaps that's one of the reasons(ha!)that he was found not guilty. Anyone here believe he was innocent?"
Wasn't that the whole scene where he was fully covered with clothes (later in the bag taken with him to Chicago) and that he wore gloves at the crime scene (remember the famous glove evidence presented by Marcia Clark) that if it don't fit you have to acquit. Even though he supposedly cut himself on the hand (through the glove?) during the stabbing, but claimed he cut breaking a glass in his hand at his Chicago hotel room when LE had called to tell him his ex-wife had been killed.
No, not me. He was guilty. But at least in that case we had the civil case results that did find him guilty which helped some to put aside their outrage at the poor prosecution and circus atomosphere of the entire trial.
Coyotewaits,
A female witness has pointed out that she heard the footsteps of at least two persons running from the house(I believe) Assuming RG, AK and RS were in the home, and we know RG(who has admitted to being there) was supposedly one of the persons who almost knocked someone down, then that leaves us with another suspect. I highly doubt if it were RS, because I do not think that he would have split on AK, assuming they were in the cottage. RS and AK were just two of the same kind.
That being said, it still leaves a possible suspect out there. RG has stated that he fought with an attacker(we must assume he speaks in half truths too) and this attacker he speaks of, could have been the other person who was participating and now, also fleeing the crime scene; thus leaving RS and AK not only alone. but also. forcing them to do the cleanup.
took some time to return home from work, have some dinner and some wine. Catching up on the interesting posts made in the last couple of hours and will start withe the most important first. w* footnote: Hhhmmm. IF Johnny Depp played Franciscan friar William of Okham elucidating logic itself and the logic of faith to his male studnets, would the Ladies STILL swoon?ith:
Easy - YES. Most definitely, Yes!
OT)) annarbor | 12.21.07 - 5:01 pm
also at the time of the OJ crime DNA forensic evidence gathering was in it's infancy with regards to training LE to handle the crime scene discovery of it and the laboratory processing of it. Remember the famous Dr. Henry Lee for the defense who pillared the prosecutions presented DNA evidence against OJ. It is also though amusing to see, I think it was in the Phil Spector trial (could be wrong) but some recent Los Angeles trial where the prosecuting attorney pillared Dr. Lee's defense testimony 13 years later because LE now knows quite well how to handle DNA evidence.
Pinecone, Coyotewaits and RobertM play devil's advocate here, making damn sure we don't hang AK, RS and RG so quickly
You know, believe it or not, I am not trying to hang any of them. Pinecones stalwart, unshakable position has given me pause at times. But I believe that at some point, you must go beyond the concrete, definite hard evidence and use your brain, intelligence, and even intuition. A bit of circumstantial evidence is one thing. But a preponderance of circumstantial evidence, along with obvious fabrications on the part of the suspects, and some new forensic evidence and witness statements implies that perhaps something more than the easy, simple answer.
The use of thought and deduction is not a bad thing. I'm not ready to hang anyone, but im willing to listen and look at additional evidence and consider it in a larger context.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 5:42 pm post:
I didn't follow the McCann case much except what was in the headlines. This is true though that the Portugal LE had to turn to the UK laboratories and DNA experts for analysis of evidence?
LE's story gets stronger and stronger for me again about AK & RS involvement theory but Robert's comment jarred me back to the possibility of more than the three suspects and the victim being therecoyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 8:25 pm | #
I have felt all along that there was at least one and more likely two additional people present, and that there presence was key to the sequence of events that led to the murder.
I remember that there was a short time after the discovery of the bloody handprint and the faeces in the bathroom that the LE played down the possible "fourth man" until they actually identified Rudy and were close to his capture. I believe that LE is still working to identify and capture the Mystery couple....But, as always, just my opinion.
Time to watch Dateline...
The last I remember reading of the missing sweatshirt, was that the police were still looking for it. It was assumed it was too blood-stained for Knox to hold on to.
Re: fingerprints. . . when Knox went back to the house to have a shower, how come there were none of her fingerprints anywhere in the bathroom except for the one on the tap? I bet if the police inspected my bathroom after I'd had a shower, they'd find fingerprints everywhere, light switch, towels, sink/basin - how likely is it (honestly) that I would only leave "one" fingerprint?
--------------------
Emily Booth | 12.21.07 - 6:15 pm
"If Amanda's blood is in the small bathroom with Meredith's, it is because Amanda held the knife."
If Amanda's blood is in the small bathroom with Meredith's, it is because she was bleeding from some where herself at some time before or after MK blood also was deposited there. (not meaning to just split hairs but to ask further:
As previously noted so far we have heard no evidence of AK blood in MK bedroom.
It is possible AK held the knife, but maybe just held it to wash it off.
Your statement implies, or at least I inferred, that she held it and cut herself while using it to stab MK. But we still do not have any evidence at all as to the latter.
(Hmmm, held knife to clean it with bleach and water, accidentally cutting herself, thus leaving a trace of her own DNA on the handle before putting it in bag to take back to RS flat).
But then why, knowing she had cut herself (or did she know), did she not even more carefully clean the bathroom? This whole case is just so baffling, especially as the judge notes, with regards to the motive.
CW re McCann case & Portugal use of UK labs: YES -- and they didn't like what they heard and have apparently sent even more stuff for analysis because they do not have resources. And have sent stuff despite the former head of CSI-P coming out in the papers there and saying forthrightly that the apartment as a crime scene was totally compromised from before the police arrived, and they made matters worse. He called for national standards & training in US & UK crime scene techniques. (For instance, did not formally interview a key witness as to Gerry McCann's whereabouts until November and then had the Leisceter police do so. EGADS!)
The National PLE at some important mid-levels seems to resemble J Edgar Hoover's early 1960s-1970s FBI. However, the new chief in charge of the McCann case has put his detectives back to ground zero, i.e. no evidence that Maddy died in the apartment, which is the motivating JUDGEMENT of the mid-level detectives against the McCanns.
My point with the Omagh Fiasco post of early this am is to point out that no matter how technically good a CSI unit is, if the ground level control is poor, its GIGO --> garbage in, garbage out.
ROB --> re SWEATSHIRT As soozieUk says its been a while since we heard anything about it and I only remember it being referenced here without a link to a newspaper article. If Amanda was directly questioned about its whereabouts, after say the PM established that she had been wearing such an item on Nov 1 and that its was now not in her wardrobe, and either answered or refused, well, we have had NO LEAK on that question. Therefore, I think it could be a rumor derived from the pics of Nov 2. That is, a mismatched top & bottom led to speculation the top was missing due to it being too bloodied to clean, when in fact nothing is missing. No inventory of her clothes has been released by the ILE. One would presume, that such an inventory was taken, but...
When she was arrested & being escorted, her top with hood SEEMED to match the leggings, which by the script design of the name seemed to be a Seattle Mariners sweatpants (the S was very elaborate which tends to be a US baseball thing, whereas the Supersonics are a cleaner style). But such an athletically-inclined young lady would have several pairs, even duplicates.
All you DATELINE watchers here in the US. Blogment away when you get the chance. Thanks in advance. Interested to know if Van Zandt's views have matured/changed since his last MSNBC posting on this case, which was early November and tentative.
LOZ -- coming back to a short claim you made above: "AKs print was found on MKs face..."
I believe it was over on Disqus that a new poster put up a multi-post with links on the SCIENCE OF LATENT PRINTS TAKEN FROM HUMAN SKIN. Its a technique that can work in some circumstances and you need to know what you are doing. I do not think it was applied here.
Why? Because IF ILE had a good fingerprint of Amanda anywheres in Meredith's room, especially one taken from the body, THEN they would have The Smoking Gun and have no need to thoroughly pursue the blood evidence in other rooms as they are doing. Game, set, match & throw away the key. Ditto for Rafe. The leaker got ahead of him/herself in describing what was cataloged at the autopsy, which was likely Impressions of Human Fingers on Meredith's face. But no prints. There's just Rudy's fingerprint on the bloody pillow.
PARANOIA RUNS DEEP, INTO YOUR LIFE IT WILL CREEP
To BCPL, well, it appears that we've had a Prime Suspect read one of Steve's blogs, and he's since been arrested. (See Nailah Franklin) How about that!!. Also, a key witness blogmented in another thread under a handle, along with her aunt, but only AFTER testifying in her ex-husband's murder trial. We THINK that a member of the defense team was monitoring & also commenting. All I know is that months & months later I received notice that I was going to be supoenaed [sp?] as part of the appeal. Local prosecutors got that withdrawn. But to have a current prosecutorial team here as silent readers? Well its possible but if so on previous threads, no one has tipped their hand.
Interested to know if Van Zandt's views have matured/changed since his last MSNBC posting on this case, which was early November and tentative.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 9:38 pm |
He's still got his head up his ass, Robert M. He ended his worthless analysis of the case by saying investigators are hoping/expecting one of the three suspects to squeal on the other two.
Where's Dan Abrams?
Pinecone:
I was just watching Judge Perino with Baden on Fox...not really watching it but it is in the background and I hear GRUSOME NEWS FROM ITALY...and they go on to make twenty factually ludicrous statements (like did you know the murder took place at 8:30?) Heads up ass? Its a shame you can't convict talking heads of extreme blather.
rob | 12.21.07 - 7:58 pm posted:
"its hard to take coyote as 'the voice of reason' considering the case was closed for this poster in mid november and the howling about Patrick's quilt and stupidity was so loud from her posted comments. anyway i just scroll by this posters rubbish now but it sure is a lengthy job. i have said that all along there is no evidence for us to know. just a dead girl and legal reports to read if you know italian and even the first 40 pager has blacked out segments so aint a full picture.i want to follow the trial so will wait for that. if anything big breaks i will check you lot out again.in the meantime heres hoping you all have a good new year, plonkers too.rasta la bagel."
--------------------
Rob, you can call coyote and others names, trash them, flame them, it wouldn't be the first time and it doesn't bother me and I hope not the others.
But not sticking to the facts and the truth should not be something that one would think of yourself as doing, including yourself.
But your emotions show your character to put down someone else's posts rather than just ignore them as you claim you do when you care not for what they have to say. Obviously you don't ignore them since you are now back to doing what you did previously, attacking the poster Ad Hominem or changing the subject when you wish not to argue the evidence, facts and in this case the truth about my previous post
Anyway here are the facts at what I said back on Nov 19th and 24th when I concluded that AK, RS and a 4th person at that time still unknown (not PL) were the prerps of Meredith murder. At this date PL was already being on the verge of being released and we all knew that. Damian, also incorrectly criticized me with the same rush to judgment on PL, but when pointed out to him his incorrect assumption about what I had actually posted, acknowledged his error.
So just pointing out the facts again to you. See summary of the posts here.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=17318#62788
No need to respond. Thanks for reading.
Dan Abrams? I always thought of him as a Geraldo wannabe....And, geeez, Who the hell wants to be a second hand tabloid journalist like Geraldo?!
All these talking heads have their talking heads up there ass. At lease VS has 20 years of legit experience. Last time I saw Geraldo he was talking about Al Capone's safe. Last time I saw Dan Abrams he was talking....and i turned the tv off
A2:
We have now reached complete agreement. Talking heads have heads up ass.
I am reduced to not quoting Occam but Charlie Brown. Arrrgggghhhhh. LOL
Hahahaha...so happy to have found common ground!
Dan Abrams? I always thought of him as a Geraldo wannabe....And, geeez, Who the hell wants to be a second hand tabloid journalist like Geraldo?!
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 10:56 pm
Dan Abrams called the Duke lacrosse incident a hoax before anyone else had even bothered to question it.
So did I....Does that mean I know who murdered MK? Ummmm. I'm the first to admit it...nope.
Pinecone,
As I've said before here. I don't say that you're wrong. But I don't know that you are right either. I feel as though you made your decision a while back and spend your time picking and choosing evidence to support your conclusion. You may well be correct, that Rudy acted alone. However, I'm not there yet, and other than those directly involved, I don't believe anyone can say yet, who is responsible. I'm trying to keep an open mind, not trying to shoot you down.
And on that note, its Friday night afer a loooong work week. I'm headed out to think of other things for a bit. A luxury I wish the Kerchers had.
Has anybody given thought to the consideration that AK, RS, RG and RG's unknown friend (UF)got together for some drugging and partying and then the two buddies RG & UF went after MK while AK & RS diod their own thing in the kitchen and AK rooms until they heard screaming.
Then in fact what RG says happened to him, he was threatened to being responsible because he was black, was just the opposite...AK & RS were themselves terrorized and threatened as RG & UF quickly cleaned themselves up and fled, leaving AK & RS to ponder what to do, afraid to call authorities? We would definitely need evidence of UF in MK room or elsewhere besides a second person fleeing.
No, can't go there myself. After seeing Van Zaat on Dateline I am driven back to my first theory that AK & RS were in a conspiracy to cover their own complicity and made RG the fall guy. Van Zaat seemed to want to hint that AK held and plunged the knife. Back to my pre-med theory I guess.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 9:17 pm
"CW re McCann case & Portugal use of UK labs: YES -- and they didn't like what they heard and have apparently sent even more stuff for analysis because they do not have resources. And have sent stuff despite the former head of CSI-P coming out in the papers there and saying forthrightly that the apartment as a crime scene was totally compromised from before the police arrived, and they made matters worse. He called for national standards & training in US & UK crime scene techniques. (For instance, did not formally interview a key witness as to Gerry McCann's whereabouts until November and then had the Leisceter police do so. EGADS!)"
Thanks for the answer on the McCann vs Portugal case. Interesting. I suppose Portugal being the smallest EU country probably isn't update on the latest forensic techniques. But I would suppose that Italy is and doesn't need UK help. In fact Van Zaat (do I have his name correct) stated he was quite impressed with the ILE forensic processing. Being former FBI and credible and well known I think Dateline did a good job bringing him in for this coverage.
And on that note, its Friday night afer a loooong work week. I'm headed out to think of other things for a bit. A luxury I wish the Kerchers had.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 11:11 pm | #
Why don't you rub ashes on your head and wear a sackcloth dress?
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 10:15 pm
"All I know is that months & months later I received notice that I was going to be supoenaed [sp?] as part of the appeal. Local prosecutors got that withdrawn."
You were going to be subpoenaed to give a deposition about a poster on a blog thread?????? Did I read your comment correctly? Yes? Then please tell us more.
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 10:47 pm posted:
"He's still got his head up his ass, Robert M. He ended his worthless analysis of the case by saying investigators are hoping/expecting one of the three suspects to squeal on the other two."
For golly sakes, Pinecone. Isn't that what us amateur Van Zandt's have been hoping also?
For golly sakes, Pinecone. Isn't that what us amateur Van Zandt's have been hoping also?
coyotewaits | 12.21.07 - 11:42 pm |
Not me. You know who I think did it, all alone.
seattleite | 12.21.07 - 10:53 pm
"I was just watching Judge Perino with Baden on Fox...not really watching it but it is in the background and I hear GRUSOME NEWS FROM ITALY...and they go on to make twenty factually ludicrous statements (like did you know the murder took place at 8:30?) Heads up ass? Its a shame you can't convict talking heads of extreme blather."
LMAO, and media in the USA too? Puts my head in the sand!
You know there are people who believe everything they hear on TV? Most of those "experts" don't even bother to read up on a case before putting in their two cents worth, yet viewers think they're getting the real scoop.
The Dateline piece was one-sided, but the defense would have to be crazy to go public with anything at this point.
Pinecone:
I had to get "media trained" for something once and its all about the energy and the pace of the discussion--I know facts haven't factored since the vast wasteland speech...but there have been moments-- but this wasn't even good for low-rent fill-in TV. Another argument for the elimination of television.
Geez, Pinecone.
Lighten up. I'm hardly claiming sainthod or wearing a sackcloth. I'm headed out for a drink or two with friends.
I didn't swallow the Dateline piece whole. I'm just not ready to say I know the answer. Lighten Up...You seem pissed off with everyone. I didn't come here to fight. WTF?
Gnight
That I agree with Pinecone, what's good for the Italians in media coverage is good for the USAians from there own style of coverage.
Well think I'll follow annarbor. No not stalking her, just to go clear my head too. Maybe a glass of fine Cabernet. No! Tonights the night for a really great cognac.
Lighten Up...You seem pissed off with everyone.
annarbor | 12.21.07 - 11:54 pm
LOL. I'm on the spectrum.
Delamain Vesper? Oh! You have Delamain Grande Champagne! One please.
Rudy did it ...end of story
I was just watching Judge Perino with Baden on Fox.. Heads up ass? Its a shame you can't convict talking heads of extreme blather.
seattleite | 12.21.07 - 10:53 pm | #
I’m going to give Perino and particularly Baden a one-time pass on this. They do remind me of fish out of the water on this case. On a prior show Pirino got her facts wrong (e.g. Knox text messaged somebody that Meredith is going to dye) , and Baden seemed equally confused on whose dna is on the knife.. The Mrs. watches these programs, and then I get to spend 10 min. reminding her not to believe everything on the teevee.
Despite all these shortcomings and misinformation. I believe they generate added attention to the public; and more focus and determination on the Italian police, and courts, to do what ever they can to resolve this case in a judicial manner.
From Dateline transcript, seeming to confirm Meredith's murder clothing was NOT washed.
"Richard Owen: It was described by the investigating judge as a chilling scene."
"There were finger marks on the jaw. A small knife puncture on the underside of the chin. Her torn and scattered jeans and underwear, and DNA recovered in the body, described the sexual torture of a woman being forced to her knees."
And this bit, which might explain what Rudy really did with that chair:
"Clint thought the DNA on her body and the location of blood spray from the wound supported the investigative theory that Meredith was being sexually attacked from behind, bent over [Rudy's chair?] or perhaps being forced to her knees.
Entire, mostly rehashed, transcript at
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240/
I love Dan Abrams, and I love Geraldo.
Kill me now.
Why don't you rub ashes on your head and wear a sackcloth dress?
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 11:30 pm | #
Ha! You are a sassy thing tonight, PC. and wildly impractical and illogical: you're describing Spring-ware.
was she stabbed through her throat to the back? skewered? i'm afraid to ask...
pc thanks--will read the transcript--missed the program.
ok-stabbed through from left to right.
whoa.
OT (mostly)
RobertM "And have sent stuff despite the former head of CSI-P coming out in the papers there and saying forthrightly that the apartment as a crime scene was totally compromised from before the police arrived, and they made matters worse."
The outrageous aspect of this was that local LE had already messed up an earlier case (missing girl, suspected murder victim Leonor Cipriano) in the same way. And in that case too, the mother was eventually accused and convicted - based on flimsy "evidence" (blood in the fridge, which the defense said could have been from a nosebleed [sound familiar?]) and a confession made under duress (more like quasi-torture) of another relative. So the failure of PLE to secure the Madeleine crime site and to immediately begin to rule out (or rule "in") the parents was "ludicrous" - to use a fashionable word.
Pinecone | 12.21.07 - 11:30 pm "Why don't you rub ashes on your head and wear a sackcloth dress?"
You had me in stitches.
|
Interesting how Zach Nowak gets into the transcript, trashing RHG:
--- No, but he did have a reputation for being sort of the guy who bugged the girls. To the point where the girl would go to the bartender and say “Look, this guy is bugging me. Can you tell him to leave?” ---
I notice Nowak popping up too--AND I would be surprised if the writer had not read here too; not very aggressive research for the $$ investment they made. sort of a simple report aggregating other stuff. Not much original BUT they did get detail about the wound. Competent but relatively lazy. The just sort of went on the record as acknowledging the crime. That blog by the producer being so out of it at the airport busted the whole thing. The had no one who spoke Italian so Nowak helped out there too. I wonder if he volunteered. He was quoted a couple times before we read of his book. I think he promoted himself into it and is an idiot.
The friends panel thing--those kids are on press circuit too and vetted by Amanda's family. No one new comes forward to these guys. They have no/few contacts. No Italian journalist involved. That guy Owen at the Times just mimics back what he reads in the Italian papers. I'd rather have seen FRANK on the program. Wonder what they paid Patrick.
I didn't see the second comment from Perugia Shock translated, so I'll give it a shot.
tobefrank-italia said...
"Dovresti vedere come si muove a Perugia. Va sempre a cercare i giornalisti. Cmq è incredibile quell'uomo, è molto meglio dei suoi avvocati. Stasera o domani potrai leggere un articolo su di lui, anche."
In reference to RS' dad:
You should see how he moves in Perugia. He always goes looking for the journalists. Cmq (?) That man is incredible, and much better than his own lawyers. Tonight or tomorrow you could write a story about him also.
Anyone, please correct me if I made any mistake in the translation.
Xin, I like Frank too. He's cynical and sarcastic, but always even-tempered, fair and kind in the end.
Thanks a lot, Sparrow. I think Rafe is a real bad guy. His father seems to behave like a wheeler-dealer, aggressively, he likes the publicity, the most of any of the participants. He's quite comfortable really with this all. He's in for a crash after the holidays.
I should hit the hay--it's so late.
~later tweets
Xin "They had no one who spoke Italian so Nowak helped out there too."
Sounds like a Robert Murat.
Sounds like a Robert Murat. Just doesn't it, though, just doesn't it. If all of this were an unexplained grass-fire or even an old building going up in flames, senior FD inspectors would be looking quite hard at such an "inserter" type. The rate of their involvemnt is quite high. "Sparkies" is another term.
CW-->You were going to be subpoenaed to give a deposition about a poster on a blog thread??????
Apparently, yes. They'd already had a run at Steve & he & the county DA got that quashed. He told me what to do after I sent him a WTF? email. I left messages & emailed the assisting detective but heard back just once & nothing showed up.
To be precise the subpoena was actually more INVASIVE than being asked to testify. The subpeona was to YAHOO for ALL of my emails--ALL. And Yahoo was notifying me that they would have to comply unless they got (1) a countermanding court order, or (2) the plaintiff withdrew the request. It was a courtesy notification. If serious & upheld in Georgia, I would have had to go to court here or there to ask for a stay. They must have withdrawn the request. I've heard nothing since.
Robert M,
Scary, just scary. Knowing that any and all of us here could possibly have our computers seized by the ILE for inspection (by the media of course) for participating and commenting about the Merrdith Kercher murder on Steve's blog.
Just plain scary!
For all the scorn being heaped on Dateline, the actors in the show, even Novak:
(who was the first poster on this thread who called Novak out as an impostor author by satirizing his novel as written after the murder in ten days?. I think even Steve was so PO's about my satire at that time that he deleted my post. Those who saw it before deletion will remember I posted it as a fake news article, (been there done that again) that he confessed to fabricating it, (reason Steve deleted it, but even Steve now has to admit it was worthy of my satirical point))
we have to admit the ILE gave Dateline some hot access to the crime's forensic evidence...namely Van Zandt getting to see and analyze the coroner's photos of MK body.
Other posters above have noted these new facts about: Her head was restrained and pulled back and up, a knife (perhaps a 2nd knife held by a 2nd person) pricked her skin right under her chin...that person had to be in front of her......the "KNIFE" had a blade at least 3 cm (8 ") long not the whole knife being 3 cm long, and it penetrated her neck left to right, clear through to the other side.....new facts
and she bleed do death choking on her own blood, reason for mushroom to have been expurgiated [sp] from her stomach to her esophagous [sp] her diaphragm convulsing trying to force air to her lungs which air ways were filling with internal bleeding....it was fucking horrible for her......
if the person striking the fatal blow was behind her, striking from MK left to right they had to holding the knife in their left hand.....which of the suspects is left handed?
if the person striking that blow stood or leaned into MK on her knees from in front of her, they had to wield the knife in their right hand... see Van Zandt's angry depiction or the chief prosecutor at his desk using his letter opener
Sgt. Friday says: "The facts, Ma'am, just the facts"
I think last night Dateline, for all it's admitted and criticized dramatization did, I think give us all a few more facts.
I understand now why LE thinks they have a very good case against RG, AK and RS. I just still wonder if they are thinking anymore about a possible 4th. But from what I heard last night reading between the scripted line and all the editorializing, the crime doesn't need a 4th perp to be plausible and rationally deduced. Sorry for the bad grammer and selling, still getting the webs out of my eyes and stiff fingers.
Stop it, stop it, just stop it Zack Novak. For trying to seize my crown as the village plonker last night on the Dateline show.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1298179,00.html
"She was saying how she had seen Meredith's body reflecting in the mirror of a wardrobe."
possible from the door of the bedroom? cos if not, there's another thing.
"A prosecution source added: ''From their statements we know that Knox told them that Meredith had died slowly from a stab wound to the neck.
''The question is how did she know this particular detail, as only police and the killer would have been aware.''.
sky news UK carries the wardrobe mirror quote, it's US Fox cousin doesn't.
LOZ -- coming back to a short claim you made above: "AKs print was found on MKs face..."
I believe it was over on Disqus that a new poster put up a multi-post with links on the SCIENCE OF LATENT PRINTS TAKEN FROM HUMAN SKIN. Its a technique that can work in some circumstances and you need to know what you are doing. I do not think it was applied here.
Why? Because IF ILE had a good fingerprint of Amanda anywheres in Meredith's room, especially one taken from the body, THEN they would have The Smoking Gun and have no need to thoroughly pursue the blood evidence in other rooms as they are doing. Game, set, match & throw away the key. Ditto for Rafe. The leaker got ahead of him/herself in describing what was cataloged at the autopsy, which was likely Impressions of Human Fingers on Meredith's face. But no prints. There's just Rudy's fingerprint on the bloody pillow.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 10:08 pm | #
except...they did
What are conditions like in AK's prison? Food?
Anyone have any information about what her cell might look like? Is she in a single cell with those other women I read about?
What would the criminal trial be like? (jury? Judge?)
Also, any information about her parents? Is her mother Jewish, by any chance?
Anonymous | 12.21.07 - 8:22 pm | #
she's in a large airy cell, with 2/3 other women. the cell has it's own en-suite showers and toilets.
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 2:37 am posted:
"And this bit, which might explain what Rudy really did with that chair:
"Clint thought the DNA on her body and the location of blood spray from the wound supported the investigative theory that Meredith was being sexually attacked from behind, bent over [Rudy's chair?] or perhaps being forced to her knees."
Makes rational sense as a possible scenario, Pinecone. Does anyone know if RG is left handed. Let's see now. He doesn't have to be lh'd. If he is right handed he needed to use his left hand and forearm strength to press her head (hand print on face & jaw) to her and his right from behind, twisting her neck so that the left side was exposed to the front and then would need to bring his right hand up and over her face then angle it down from just below her left jaw and ear so that the knife took a trajectory across and slanted downward toward her right clavicle.
Yes, very very possible and contorted enough that it would not be at a maximum leveraged force such as e.g., standing in front of someone as Van Zandt demonstrated, swinging with the right hand and arm with easily full force. Earlier we had the coroner's report the stab was with minimum or not heavy force.
So now I have to see MK blood on RG's jeans. Was there every any stated evidence about clothes when they searched the abandoned flat of RG. What happened to any of that search evidence anyway (we never heard again; the black hole of evidence gravity sucks up the light of facts again).
except...they did
Loz | 12.22.07 - 9:21 am
Except they did what, Loz? They did get a print of AK's finger off of MK face? As RobertM points out, where is that fact published, quoted, referred to?
Sgt. Friday encourages: "The facts, Ma'am, just the facts".
"Clint van Zandt". What a name. Has to be a stage name, yes? Pseudonym for a former FBI'r who has gone on stage. Better than the pseudonym for the popular crime author, John E. Douglas, who was also a former FBI'r profiler.
Robert M. | 12.21.07 - 10:15 pm
"To BCPL, well, it appears that we've had a Prime Suspect read one of Steve's blogs, and he's since been arrested. (See Nailah Franklin) How about that!!."
Did Reginald M. Potts, Jr. (to whom Robert is referring above) get Steve's 'creep of week' award when he was finally arrested two weeks ago? he should have.
As far as I can tell by what I have read, RS is the only suspect to have owned a car. Now wouldn't it have been more logical to remove the body from the scene if Amanda and RS were involved?....The poorly attempt.. at staging a break-in ...only makes sense(to me) if you were incapable,of moving the body.....It would seem to me, doing a clean-up at the scene,would be best done without a body there..........
@ meman | 12.22.07 - 10:15 am
But it would have been a high risk strategy. MK would have been declared a missing person, and if someone had seen RS's vehicle in the vicinity, then doubtless it would have been seized... and dna possibly found...
CW wrote: ""Clint van Zandt". What a name. Has to be a stage name, yes? Pseudonym for a former FBI'r who has gone on stage. Better than the pseudonym for the popular crime author, John E. Douglas, who was also a former FBI'r profiler."
No, it isn't a stage name, as far as I know. Neither is Douglas's. That's an odd assertion to make, too. Douglas may be a bit of a showboater -- even his old colleagues think so -- but I like Clint. He's actually very straightforward and pretty no-nonsense for a talking head of his stripe.
And he was referred to as far back as 1993 in various news articles as Clint Van Zandt, when he was still an active profiler. To the best of my knowledge, the FBI frowns on pseudonyms for active agents, unless they're undercover.
Were you just being sarcastic, and it didn't translate well online?
Steve. Yes I was being a bit sarcastic given that most posters were panning the Dateline show last night and the hosts and contributors on that show including Zack Nowak and CvZ. Thanks for the clarification on Mr. van Zandt's name. However, John E. Douglas is an author's pseudonym and it takes only a few google searches into the author's background material to see that fact. My reference to such a fact doesn't mean to diminish his fine work and books, just to the standard practice that most people in the public eye of celebrity operate with pseudonyms and not their birth names.
And, of course, neither Douglas or Van Zandt are active agents. What the FBI and all USDOJ agencies completely proscribe and in fact prohibit as employee policy is any active agent publishing or stating anything in public about their or any other DOJ agency procedures, practices or internal polices unless cleared specifically by their Agent in Charge or even higher up at their respective DOJ agency HQ. This Steve I should and do know as fact, which is, as my former better half is employed as a special agent for a DOJ agency.
Finally, upon reading my earlier posts, it should be clear I, unlike others, was not personally panning Mr. Van Zandt. Quite the contrary, I was pointing out the value of the show in exposing us to some new facts that Van Zandt elucidated by having access to the post-mortem photographs and autopsy report. Valuable information for us sleuths here.
I also have began to appreciate and I think understand how and why the Italian system of criminal investigation is so public, i.e., information is allowed to be released (not necessarily leaked), unlike what is permitted in the USA and UK, to the media as it has been and, of course, thus criticized by many, including me, here for so doing, . But explaining my thoughts on that understanding and appreciation is a bit complex and I will be sharing those ideas in the future on this thread.
@ meman | 12.22.07 - 10:15 am and AndyT reply @ AndyT | 12.22.07 - 10:41 am
Not only that Andy, but they would have needed a body bag, and still there would have been evidence left all over the car. OT)) sort of the blue barrel speculation of the Stacy Petersen case.
Anyway, unlike Drew Petersen, neither RS or AK have any professional police or forensic experience and they have obviously quite botched their attempt in the house to cover up what they thought they could of there involvement.
It just baffles me as to what their thinking and rational expectations must have been after the murder. Baffles me so much that I have found myself arguing the circumstantial evidence for their non-involvement, re: Pinecones theory just to find an explanation for all this. And that after arguing several weeks and concluding as has the ILE (that's where I took my lead for conclusion in the first place, from the ILE) that the three suspects are in fact the three perps.
But now given this past weeks report from the PP Giuliano Mignini and the new judge where both say they too are baffled as to the motive and murderous act I am not so upset at my own confusion and disbelief. The LE are merely following the so called trail of evidence wherever it seems to be leading. Lastly, I accepted the shows critique last night by Van Zandt that the ILE forensic labs, staff and techniques were first rate ( assuming the TV coverage was of labs in Rome).
coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 11:03 "However, John E. Douglas is an author's pseudonym and it takes only a few google searches into the author's background material to see that fact."
I think you got it wrong Coyote.
Check this out:
http://webpac.crrl.org/
reference...ohn_douglas.htm
"John E. Douglas was born in Brooklyn, NY, on June 18, 1945, son of Jack and Dolores Douglas."
AndyT | 12.22.07 - 10:41 am | and if someone had seen RS's vehicle in the vicinity# .............Prehaps..but the vechicle did belong to Amandas boyfriend,so the car being at the house would not be to abnormal had it been noticed that night.....I don't really want to lead this forum in a direction about the body not having been moved(since we all no it wasn't)...But having the capablity to do so,and not. Doesn't make sense..I was just thinking out loud....sorry for that.....
Steve: I was trying to find a link on the John Douglas author pseudonym but the search is becoming exhaustive and not worth it. So permit me to redact my statement for lack of documentation and source (my previous source was just causal live conversation at dinner amongst envious DOJ agents several years ago when he was getting all the publicity around his involvement in the Jon Benet Ramsey case) which itself could have been innuendo and maliciousness.
AndyT | 12.22.07 - 11:44 am
OT))yes, yes AndyT, acknowledged. See my previous post to Steve. Though also note that when well known people in the public eye change their names for publicity purposes (especially actors, artists and authors) they change all the names in their bios also, just part of the PR program that is done. But in this case I do not want to be hung for something I can document so my request to redact my own statement and my acknowledgment that it must be his birth name.
My now embarrassment that I even mentioned that Clint Van Zandt sounded like a stage name. Made me think of Clint Eastwood, Clint Walker, Van Diesel, etc., etc, all crime fighters and actors in this case.
something I can document = should read
"can't document"
I do recall other rape cases in which chairs were used by perpetrators to secure and stabilize a victim on their knees ,while they are violated from behind. That way the victim can’t see the attacker either.
On a different matter, I listened to Dr. Baden of Fox news conjecture on how a perpetrator can injure their hand during a knife attack , or how two sets of dna can exist on the same knife. When the knife is used in a stabbing ,or thrusting motion the fresh blood is very slippery and can cause the attackers hand to slip off the handle and make contact with the upper part of the blade., causing a cut on the hand of the attacker. Interesting ... Baden also tends to discount Amanda’s first confession to police because of the intimating effect of using over 30 police as onlookers during the interrogation. maybe leading to false statements. However Amanda did make a similar remark to her mom that she was at the flat that night
OT))RobertM, writer and erudite authority on other authors. His John E. Douglas, remembering your mentioning of him way back in HaloScan I, the author's real birth name/FBI employee name/military record name etc., or is it his current career as prolific crime author pseudonym? Not an important point but Steve did call me to account because I suggested it was. Thanks.
DLW | 12.22.07 - 12:13 pm
"Baden also tends to discount Amanda’s first confession to police because of the intimating effect of using over 30 police as onlookers during the interrogation. maybe leading to false statements. However Amanda did make a similar remark to her mom that she was at the flat that night"
Which "first" confession are you referring here to DLW. First confession = second statement where she implicated PL. She made three statements to ILE. 1) I was at RS all night, 2) I was at the house, PL was there I heard screaming, 3) I was wrong, Mom, statement; her redacting # 2) and reverting back to statement #1.
I am guessing you mean confession = statement 2).
"using over 30 police as onlookers"
did Baden clarify this as fact, or was it an impression that he was exaggerating to make his point, as others here, I think, have criticized Baden for using hyperbole?
It has certainly also been pointed out here many times the same possibility as Baden has, see my post about the Kevin Fox coerced confession at
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=26778#62901
so at least a few of us here have also completely discounted her confession.
DLW | 12.22.07 - 12:13 pm post:
continuing my thought what others have countered here to that discount of her confession;
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to merely substitute the name RG for her original PL and come up with the same blood curdling "I heard her screams scenario" combined with the posters logic that when lying, more often than not, lier's build their fabrications around some factors that are true.
cw
I believe it was the 2nd statement when AK said she was at the flat and PL did it. She probably figured she would have to name someone if she was there. It's a real stretch.
On a 2nd note some anaylst are making a deal out of finding MK & AK mixed blood in sink or bidet. Possible someone washed blood off knife. They fell that the blood was very recent.
So am I getting a drift here that we combine Pinecone's theory (RG committed the attempted sexual attack and the murderous blow) with the three of them theory so we have:
1) RG is alone with MK in bedroom restraining, attempting to rape, and ultimately killing MK
2) AK is stoned out in the kitchen doing something (eating mushrooms) and is frozen in fear upon hearing screams
3) RS is stoned out either a)at home & comes over later to help AK clean; b)is there doing his thing whatever; or c) is in MK bedroom with RG and MK;
(note RG used the bathroom well before all this not after)
and after the dastardly deed:
4) RG cleans himself off in bathroom and goes gtfoot
5) AK (or AK & RS) contemplates the consequences of what has happened and decide the best course of action, given they have concluded they will be as guilty as RG to what has occurred, is to erase any evidence that they were there at the time and leave evidence, not caring, of RG doing the deed (i.e., not disturb MK bedroom).
6) This includes making it look like a break in (they are not responsible for letting RG in)
7) Erasing any trace of their being there, AK & Kitchen cleanup, but not the bathroom since RG went in there to wash
all the rest of what we know, cell phones discarded, next day etc.
Does this pass your mustard test, Pineone, or does AK & RS have to be totally innocent?
adding DLW reminder of the mixed blood in the bathroom
9) During the early morning cleanup (with bleach) AK washes the knife in the bathroom sink cutting herself slightly and unknownly mixing her blood with that of MK washed off of the knife
10) in 9) above RG doesn't wash off in the bathroom at all, he just wipes his hands on the wall, and other things and immediately goes gtfoot
11) AK & RS take & throw the two cell phones away, part of the break in, robbery, rape..motive...take and keep MK money, part of same cover up motive.....
WHY DO CLEANUP IF DID NOT DO CRIME?
(1) Because you (Amanda) were there (in your room, let's say, with Rudy's Friend(s) doing...) when Rudy escalated the "bothering" of Meredith into assault, rape & murder
(2) you (Amanda) become aware of the attack's conclusion by opening and going just through the door, following Rudy's Friend(s), & are dragooned into help moving the body [covering Meredith is what you do]
(3) Rudy & Friend(s) threaten you (Amanda) with the same if you squeal, and then suggest staging a break-in & a clean-up "as you're already involved as we are 'cause you invited us"
(4) being frightened & semi-drugged out you agree [please note: this is the FIRST time in your life you have seen a corpse and so much blood], and so R & Friend(s) flee [10:30 pm] after locking door behind them, leaving you holding the [plastic] bag.
Now there you are with the words, "we'll kill you as easily as Rudy did Mez" reverberating in your still semi-drugged, traumatically shocked, little head with its distant relationship to a moral compass. Can't say what I would have done at 20 in a foreign country, having no command of the language and its 11 pm at night. Call Seattle and say "Uhmm, Mom? I've got a problem here." No, I'd go for local support and for Amanda that was Rafe. She woke him up, dragged him back while telling the story, all femme in distress with "Harry" to the rescue so he wouldn't call Big Sister in the Carabinieri, and they set about the clean-up/break-in [all the 2 am commotion heard by some neighbors, as in "You are supposed to clean that" "But I DID"].
to part 2
12) AK & RS thinking they have more time to finish cleanup return in late morning after an exhausting night, not to take a shower (AK) but to finish cleaning what they might have missed (meaning the bathroom).
WHY DO CLEAN-UP, part 2
The obviousness of the "extra post-mortem activity" to ILE is one of the reasons that led ** the ME to walk through the house on Sunday with ALL 3 roomates ** going over all 3 stories, sorting out where stuff was supposed to be, personal habits, etc. [See news stories for early & mid Monday 11/4; this reference is usually buried in the middle of the summary, there's no separate headliner that I saw.] Pinecone can apply O's Razor to this still (Rudy did it), BUT must also account for ILE's perception based on early CSI results that material in the other rooms was altered post-mortem and not done well.
Both Amanda and Rafe are in fear of their lives in that naming Rudy directly means having to "name" or describe the Friend and who knows what they were told about the Friend's connections. Rafe, being involved only in the clean-up/staging, can truthfully say he had nothing to do with Meredith's murder. So can Amanda! These are the wrong questions to be asked of them, and we have no idea if the correct questions have been asked, or were asked early. Really, that Chicago-style interrogation of A did ILE no good in advancing the investigation, and especially not taping it.
This still places Amanda as the catalyst (my minimal requirement) while placing her in the house (CW), leaving Rudy the direct killer (pinecone). Amanda thought her goose was cooked BEFORE she started cleaning, not realizing under the immeidate stress that the clean-up/cover-up is what would get her in trouble.
But without Someone helping Amanda come to her senses, as in "Sorry, honey, that just doesn't wash & Rafe's Dad has already about sold you up the river to the judges", being stupid and doing the clean-up is going to get her a long incarceration, and we'll never know for sure. Denial is still Amanda's only way of coping with the trauma [I'm assuming "the flashes" are true statements rather than a melodramatic act for the purposes of posing this answer to CW].
- 30 -
ahh ha RobertM. Good, good, really good.
So my step 3) above where is RS is step 3) a) RS is at home and comes later
cell phones off simultaneously will be explained away, we're ok, keep going
LOZre Meredith's (alleged) fingerprint:
You counterposted at http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=23466#63465
Sorry, its ONLY alleged, and that was for a few days, then modified to "finger marks" and now not referred to at all. The original leaker went overboard on that one. An Amanda fingerprint from Meredith's body far far far outweighs all the bathroom blood evidence they've proclaimed so far and now its not even being referred to.
Keep going Robert, I am concurring with one possible exception, maybe there was no RF (=Rudy Friend) there. No evidence in MK room, so not in there, but maybe, just maybe in your scene RF is there but was in AK's room (doing?) and so no trace of him because of thorough clean up in AK room
"Denial is still Amanda's only way of coping with the trauma [I'm assuming "the flashes" are true statements rather than a melodramatic act for the purposes of posing this answer to CW]"
Yes, denial helps with sanity in fragile personality disordered persons
The finger impressions on MK face where intense, male hand strength see above
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=40426#63471
CW --> yes, my "Now there you are..." paragraph & your 5, 6 & 7 points are the same, really.
BUT there may be NO physical evidence ever to differentiate THAT theory from my/your original of Those 3 AllTogether Did It. For their defense lawyers, the problem isn't the argument "Rudy Did It", its with the argument "Rudy Did It ALL" which as they can put him at the disco at 4 am or so (he admits it & seem to be witnesses), gives him perhaps too little time to do everything inside the house--which would include finding out he had forgot to flush!
RG is up the creek without a paddle, no argument
AK appears up the creek with a broken and shattered oar, some now forensic physical evidence and quite of bit of forensic and statement circumstantial evidence that it will take a skilled OJ Simpson like defense team to overcome it
RS appears to be paddling up the creek frantically with his Father throwing him a life preserver unless at Van Zandt and many of us here have said somebody (guess?) decides to tell a different version of events and the PP = Public Prosecutor Ginliano Mignini fianlly says, golly this all now makes sense.
Still we can substitute RS for RF and get to the same place....unless we have to present a fear factor for AK besides just being there.... i do not think necessary.....
but I have to go with the ILE and they're saying at least three besides MK in the house with unfettered access
so it is either RS himself or RF
I also think that the moving of MK body from in front of the wardrobe to next to the bed, only a meter or less if even that much was just merely RG, (if he was restraining/attacking her from behind) in his movement to disengage himself from her and move himself backwards to exit. His clean up in his vicious Rob oriented satanic ritualized vampiristic attack is to wipe blood all over, not clean up...wipe it on walls, wipe it on the pillow, wipe, wipe and gtfoot....can you imagine looking into his eyes as AK perhaps did at he left....he would have had to say nothing to put fear beyond comprehension into AK
Last night's Dateline was informative and definitely solidifies my theory that Rudy and Amanda were the main culprits....
In Rudy, we have a lone wolf type, as well as a guy who was known to be a "bother" towards women in the bars/club scene of Perugia. We know little about his upbringing or familial relationships, but we do know enough to understand that he had some deep seated issues. It is my opinion that one of his issues at the forefront is relating to women.
In Amanda, we have a free-spirited go-getter, who by most accounts lives with her head in the clouds. We also have learned from those who know her that she is considered and good friend, even a nurturer to some degree.
I'm sure these friends are confused as to how the same Amanda they know and love could have a darker side, that just suddenly emerged. In truth, it didn't just emerge, she's always had a propensity to lean that way, it just took for the right set of circumstances.... A perfect storm of people, places, and things...
The one thing that has been eating at me is why neither Amanda or Rafe have made even the slightest mention of Rudy. He would be the perfect fall guy, especially with all of the forensic evidence that implicates him in both the rape and murder of Meredith.
I had mentioned in the past that I thought Amanda was in fact protecting Rudy, but I wasn't sure at the time. Now, hearing the stories of "nurturing" Amanda, I think this is very much the case. For whatever reason, she does seem to be protecting him. I'm not sure I understand the allure or the draw to him or why she would risk her own freedom, but it must be a strong one.
I also said before that if we looked at Amanda's account that named Patrick as the killer, we could insert the name "Rudy," and start to make sense of the events as they unfolded that night.
Another thing that struck me is the force of the fatal wound. A "through and through" with a large knife is just brutal. That's not a sex game gone bad, that's an act of hatred.
I feel that a very strong current of misogyny and sadism flows through the veins of whoever was responsible for what happened that night. It was the ultimate example of showing ones CONTROL over another: the instillation of fear, the stripping of dignity (through means of sexual violation), and ultimately, the taking of a life...in the most horrific of ways.
I'm not sure which of the three suspects were in the cottage or the room at the time of Meredith's assault and murder, but DNA seems to prove who the sexual assault was perpetrated by and DNA also seems to tell us who was responsible for the fatal stabbing.
So now the knife found at RS's. The knife, if the murder weapon that was cleaned.
Was it ever claimed that that knife was originally in or matched RS's household collection. Testimony from RS maid please.
I vaguely remember his Dad confirming so. If so, then RS just lost his paddle. But it explains the frantic Father & defense team search for another knife. Except, except. AK carried the knife from RS's and gave it to RG at her place. Got to work this over.
Or could it have come from RG carrying it with him and just happened to be taken to RS rather than discarded like the cell phones.
Still have some evidence to explain here, but we are getting closer to integrating it.
Oh, one other thought. She hasn't mentioned Rudy because she is equally protecting herself. Rudy may have raped Meredith from behind as Amanda held the knife under her chin, but I do believe that Amanda dealt the fatal blow. (One good reason for needing a shower.)
She implicates him, he implicates her....
As LOZ highlights above http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=44351#63464
"From their [M's six friends'] statements, we know that Knox told them Meredith had died slowly from a stab wound to the neck. The question is how did she know this particular detail, as only police and the killer would have been aware." Police have invited the 6 friends back for further questionning after the New Year.
[Possible POLICE viewpoint] Obviously, even if Amanda had seen the draped body and the exposed foot over or around the ILE in front of her, when Meredith's door was opened, Amanda's active imagination would only have the pooled blood to work with. To go on to assume NECK WOUND and SLOW DEATH are 2 assumptions too far.
[Possible AMANDA response] But that's what I heard your CSI people say while I was waiitng outside to be interviewed the first time. [All the pics show her and/or her & Rafe right close to the front door with cops & other personnel all around.]
Bringing the 6 women back means they are looking for more Amanda-leaked details both on Friday & any-time over the weekend. The circumstantial case builds.
Thanks for link & the check to Fox, LOZ
I'll throw one more post then I got get off to other things.
Luke, in respectful disagreement I going with RG doing the entire dastardly deed in MK room. Also that as AK said in her statement after being stressed (stress doesn't always bring false statements for sure) she heard the screams and....
Why she named PL I think is just what PL said last night in his interview, regardless that he was most likely paid (NBC would not pay him for what he would say, they have some integrity), was that AK wanted to deflect the investigation from what was becoming apparent to her, she was becoming a suspect. The clean up scheme was not working.
If she had named a RG instead of PL she would have had no idea what RG might say upon LE finding and interrogating him, he could name her because he knew she was there. But but naming PL she was clever, for she knew PL wasn't there, was innocent and that PL would have absolutely no idea who was there. Therefore that would deflect attention to PL for ILE to investigate (again she is/was too dumb to realize the possible forensics that RG would already have left and not even considered his body fluids and they would not find same from PL). And in fact it did throw ILE off for a a week until they announced they could find no trace of PL being there but they did find a traces of a fourth suspect. Of course at which time AK conveniently changed her story back.
Second the knife, which and whatever one may turn out to be the weapon. Though there is AK blood in the bathroom, LE speculates perhaps a nose bleed and everyone laughs, I think it could make sense.
Another astute poster commented why so many people who stab/kill another with a knife cut themselves. Blood from the victim squirts out covering the knife and the killers hand. It is slick, the hand slips against the blade. AK did not have a cut or wound on her hand, though ILE claims she left a drop of blood.
But RG does have a wound on his hand. Ask again how he got it? Is he telling the truth? Either he cut himself, RS was there and cut him, or AK cut him. Your choice.
Another thing that struck me is the force of the fatal wound. A "through and through" with a large knife is just brutal. That's not a sex game gone bad, that's an act of hatred.
Luke | 12.22.07 - 1:47 pm |
I don't know if it's ever been mentioned here, but something has bothered me for quite some time. I've not seen mention the probability that MK would not be able to scream when the final, deep stab wound was made. It may be possible that she screamed in terror when one of the smaller wounds was made, and that prompted the killer to quickly stab her deeply to shut her up.
SPARROW, yes, I'd wondered but never voiced my concern at no scream, especially in light of the reported 2 am noises being heard. Thanks for bringing that up. Which is answerd by the "through and through", from Meredith's left to her right. She couldn't as, BY IMPLICATION of a "through" stab wound, the wound went through her esophagus, missing the carotid but pouring blood into area near or around the vocal chords. "Drowning in her blood".
Someone from behind could have inflicted it using their left hand. The angle of the wound might really indicate that, as well as for a person in front, knife in right hand. Given the other stuff going on, re clothes, being forced to knees, likely holding her hair with other hand, definitely difficult to imagine step by step sequence by which Rudy Did It All.
BUT not impossible, especially if its Rudy and (male) Friend, who have been refused several times and now threatened with expsoure. That the sexual assault CONTINUED after the knife thrust (blood on bra, her's & Rudy's) indicates the level of brutal misogyny involved.
I really really would want to see Van Zandt's complete write-up, as he saw more than shown at the lab, and they gave him more detailed reconstruction than he had time to convey. [And a smart thing for the ILE-CSI to do to "reassure" foreign viewers of their competence, i.e. we are not the Portuguese.] As in:
Dennis Murphy: ...the forensic team thought it was valuable that they detected a drop and not much more, of Amanda’s blood on the faucet... I’m not sure I connect the dots on that. It's her house.
Clint Van Zandt: The significance...[is] she alleged that she had spent the night at her boyfriend's house. And if you think about a drop of blood [it] is normally going to dry from the outside in.
Dennis Murphy: So blood from two days ago would look...
Clint Van Zandt: Entirely different. That refutes Amanda’s story that she wasn't there that night.
Still:
[Says DEFENSE lawyer:] Ah, Cliff!! What it says, the blood on the faucet, is that that drop was deposited within 24 hours or so. There's no "rate of drying" for something as minute as a single drop of blood, given the vagaries of indoor & outdoor temperatures. You can say it has NOT fully congealed, semi-congealed, or fully congealed ONLY. Though you could run a re-enactment, drop a drop and stand there with a timer, re-enactments are not evidence.
Defintiely would like to see more.
SPARROW, yes, I'd wondered but never voiced my concern at no scream, especially in light of the reported 2 am noises being heard. Thanks for bringing that up. Which is answerd by the "through and through", from Meredith's left to her right. She couldn't as, BY IMPLICATION of a "through" stab wound, the wound went through her esophagus, missing the carotid but pouring blood into area near or around the vocal chords. "Drowning in her blood".
Robert M. | 12.22.07 - 2:44 pm |
Hi Robert M. Actually that's not what I meant. The neighbor woman did hear a scream, just before seeing two people run away from the house in different directions. This was not the 2 am scream, rather it was, by her estimate, about an hour after she went to bed (at around 8:30?).
In Luke's comment he speculates the deep wound is so vicious that it might indicate hatred. My suggestion is that the scream heard by the neighbor was made by Meredith, but before the fatal wound. And the severity of the fatal wound might be an indication of the panic the killer may have felt AFTER the scream, and be his attempt to quiet MK.
So yes, we agree that once the fatal wound was made, MK would not be able to scream. But she could have done so before that, and the scream itself may have sparked the fatal stab.
Blood from the victim squirts out covering the knife and the killers hand. It is slick, the hand slips against the blade. AK did not have a cut or wound on her hand, though ILE claims she left a drop of blood.
But RG does have a wound on his hand. Ask again how he got it? Is he telling the truth? Either he cut himself, RS was there and cut him, or AK cut him. Your choice.
coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 2:19 pm | #
I agree with you that blood does squirt, which is why Amanda's sweatshirt/sweater she was wearing that night has yet to surface. (At least to the best of my knowledge.)
This implies that Amanda was indeed in Meredith's room, possibly standing in front of her. (which is also the reason Amanda needed that shower.)
You make a good point about the cut on Rudy's hand. He could very well have been the murderer, but I still find it hard to believe that Amanda Knox was an innocent bystander, sitting in the kitchen eating mushrooms and cheese, completely unaware of the fate befalling her flatmate.
Her behavior has been textbook sociopath. It is going to take some very solid evidence to convince me otherwise.
That she still has yet to mention Rudy's name proves that she is protecting him and herself as well. She must be really confident that he isn't going to turn on her and he hasn't yet. They must have one Hell of a bond.
except...they did
Loz | 12.22.07 - 9:21 am
Except they did what, Loz? They did get a print of AK's finger off of MK face? As RobertM points out, where is that fact published, quoted, referred to?
Sgt. Friday encourages: "The facts, Ma'am, just the facts".
coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 9:54 am | #
======
there were bloodied fingerprints on her jaw? according to page1/2/3
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/2233...2332240/page/3/
so, maybe that's how they know....
The information about the fatal wound trumps Rudy's "af" story. What was his motive for inventing that tale?
Meredith Murder: Friends To Be Quizzed http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1298179,00.html
In Luke's comment he speculates the deep wound is so vicious that it might indicate hatred. My suggestion is that the scream heard by the neighbor was made by Meredith, but before the fatal wound. And the severity of the fatal wound might be an indication of the panic the killer may have felt AFTER the scream, and be his attempt to quiet MK.
So yes, we agree that once the fatal wound was made, MK would not be able to scream. But she could have done so before that, and the scream itself may have sparked the fatal stab.
Sparrow | 12.22.07 - 3:00 pm | #
What the killers didn't do speaks volumes. They could have simply tied and gagged Meredith. This too would have showed who was in control, but I don't think it would have quenched the apparent blood lust or fulfilled the "fantasy" the killer(s) went into her room with.
They attacked someone they knew, someone who could be traced back to them. They knew they'd have to kill her. They left her body in the cottage, where one of them also lived. They had weak alibis and alibis that were inconsistent.
I'm still not sure if this crime was premeditated by all who took part. I don't think that everyone was on the same page, but someone had murder on their mind seconds into it.
There are just so many contradictions that exist within this case.
LUKE --> you are back to where I was at the beginning on Halo I. Its that the level of misogyny is so high, so quickly, that whereas I thought Amanda could well have made the fatal stab, after reflection and now after how Van Zandt put it, I'm doubting her capability. Mother Issues does NOT (necessarily) = Killing Hatred of the Other.*
Clint Van Zandt: This is someone who took a knife and first of all, they'd put it up under the victim's, like this. It's like pointing up, like this ... This is to get the victim's attention and say, "You are going to comply with me and this is how serious I am." But then sometime after that, probably very quickly, there is the other, the killing wound.
Dennis Murphy: That's a forceful push, huh?
Clint Van Zandt: This was, "I’m angry. I'm forceful. I'm going to kill you."
* footnote. Any examples I can think of, and I can, took a long long build up to the attack. With a lot of markers on the way.
As a large footnote to the article I linked to yesterday re the DNA evidence thrown out by UK judge in the Omagh bomb case, here's a summation of what that DNA evidence was by the science writer of The TIMES. Its likely that, with better technique, this type of DNA work-up will be accepted in the future, but when is hard to see:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3085242.ece
Clint Van Zandt: The significance...[is] she alleged that she had spent the night at her boyfriend's house. And if you think about a drop of blood [it] is normally going to dry from the outside in.
Dennis Murphy: So blood from two days ago would look...
Robert M. | 12.22.07 - 2:56 pm
Don't Clint and Dennis know that AK and RS were at the cottage with Meredith in the afternoon of November 1? There is no "two days ago" established as the last time Amanda was there prior to the morning of Nov.2.
Were they lazy in their investigation, or deliberately choosing words to validate their opinions about the importance of this droplet?
PINECONE accurately notes: "The information about the fatal wound [through & through the esophagus] trumps Rudy's "af" story. What was his motive for inventing that tale?" How about, in an operatically inclined country, any alibi with the dying heroine whispering her killer's name will do?
Plus he'd forgotten that all she'd been able to do was gurgle & cough. And if he actually put the pillow ON HER FACE, so breaking the hyoid bone, he'd not even have heard that for long. Not the smartest card in the deck, we all agree.
"Deliberately choosing words" --> given the screen time they & the editor know they are working with. The phraseology stands in for the OTHER stuff shown to Van Zandt but for which no TV time available. Its a "Hey I'm Clint. I've been spot on before, you know that, so you can trust me on this" type of TV shorthand.
I agree with you that blood does squirt, which is why Amanda's sweatshirt/sweater she was wearing that night has yet to surface. (At least to the best of my knowledge.)
This implies that Amanda was indeed in Meredith's room, possibly standing in front of her. (which is also the reason Amanda needed that shower.)
You make a good point about the cut on Rudy's hand. He could very well have been the murderer, but I still find it hard to believe that Amanda Knox was an innocent bystander, sitting in the kitchen eating mushrooms and cheese, completely unaware of the fate befalling her flatmate.
That she still has yet to mention Rudy's name proves that she is protecting him and herself as well. She must be really confident that he isn't going to turn on her and he hasn't yet. They must have one Hell of a bond.
Luke | 12.22.07 - 3:15
------------------------
And you certainly make a good point, Luke. But where is that bloody sweatshirt and (I forgot) where did it arise in the evidence chain?
I know many here last night sort of poo poo'd Van Zandt and didn't seem that impressed with his analysis. I have a gripe myself with him or NBC or both (but see next post). But Steve expressed a great deal of respect for him, so Steve being senior to any of us on crime analysis I am going to go with van Zandt.
My point is Van Zandt seem clearly to imply your POV in his comments last night at the end of the hour. That AK was in that room and participating and that she struck the blow (recalling his scenario with Dennis swinging is arm with the knife and saying, "Clint Van Zandt: This is to get the victim's attention and say, "You are going to comply with me and this is how serious I am." But then sometime after that, probably very quickly, there is the other, the killing wound."
For RHG to hve done this crime himself.
first, it would have to be in a tight time frame, with MK having eaten after 9:15 and him leaviing the house at 10:30. And she even had time to put a wash on? But also to wash her dishes after her meal?
MK would have also had to let RHG in, and he would have also had to in the time from after 9:15-10:30 had:
* Used the loo
* attacked MK
* found her money
* found her keys
* spread blood in the other rooms
* flick blood over the 2nd bathroom
* dragged her body
* put a duvet over her
* broke the downstairs window
after leaving:
* left blood on the railing
* but also ran into someone on the street parallel
If the 10:30 witness is wrong, then that's the only way. and remember MK ate after 9:15 a mushroom (not fully digessted & still recognisable as a mushroom) which takes 1&1/2 hours only to fully digest.
He can't have been involved in the 2am arguing. cos between the murder & 2am he had to clean, change clothes, get to the club. He clubbed between 2-4? So, that involved him walking/running home too.
------------------------
How accurate are the phone triangulating thingies, is it accurate enough to show where MKs phones were after her murder til being dumped?
Here is my complaint about Van Zandt and the producers of the show last night.
I was of the impression that Clint Van Zandt was an experienced FBI profiler who used forensic and other data just like we have been using (statements of friends, suspects themselves, etc.) but then this is all we seemed to have gotten out of him about the character of AK.
"Clint Van Zandt: Realize that this is a young woman wearing two masks. One mask is Amanda, the good girl, grew up in a Catholic school, an athlete, does what her mother says. And then you've got this other mask that when she gets here it's: “I’m going wild, I’m having fun. This is where I sow my wild oats.” Now which is the true Amanda? Probably both."
I have gotten a lot more from the posters analysis here than from that statement and his other comments last night. He seems awful cautious with his closing statement of which again here we have been over ourselves, i.e., someone pops the truth:
"Clint Van Zandt: I think what the police are going to wind up doing is get one person to talk, one person, well, this going to be a “come-to-Jesus, let's make a deal” time. And tell us exactly what happened and what everyone's role was? I think we'll see that time come."
I posted a comment about what I think is the "let's make a deal" time @
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=15701#61804
scan to the last three paragraphs because it is copy of a whole thread of several posts from the old disqus system.
Oh yeah:
and what are the chances of legitimately dropping a small amount of your own blood, on/in the same spot another persons blood (are you saying that was legit too, prior to her murder say during shaving). and for those spots not to be cleaned, but to find each other.
WOAH pretty slim odds?
and not only that BUT DOING IT TWICE!
LOL
I mean sometimes, we get too clever about stuff & drying times, which is LIKE proper important and there but what about the slim chances of that happening?
plughole - maybe.
But then, it can't have been washed much/used lots. you know since ak was hardly there to leave fingerprints. and why is no one elses blood mixed in.
I guess too it depends on the plughole, bath/shower for girls yeah. sink NOPE very unlikely.
and from brushing teeth? sorry but with the fact of dilution in water, mixed with toothpaste, swallowed. nah!
Bidet - I thought it was a 'man' thing???
LOZ --> excellent layout of Rudy Did It All timeline! Thanks. Which of course is that's too much to do for that time period.
As to the triangulation of phones, it depends on how close to each other the cell towers are. Also, if you go to Kermit's PwrPt slide show, you'll see that ALL the key sites are so so close to each other than its possible that Person walking along Rafe's street could be thought to be walking along the road sloping away below Amanda's house. This is not at all like talking on a cell as you travel north on a major higway, with the transfer to new cell towers indicating both your speed and direction.
LOZ re Bidet --> ah, let me wiki that to be sure!
LOZ re Bidet. From the wiki article, I'd say it was invented for the ladies, re the first picture and its French origins.
so, maybe that's how they know....
Loz | 12.22.07 - 3:16 pm
good counterpoint Loz. The big Q is if they do have a print, whose is it. I've still have to go with Robert's take on this. There not a measurable identifiable "finger print". There is a bloody impression of fingers (pressure) but not identifiable as to whose. Though it is beginning to seem that it isn't going to matter in this case. As so many here have always pointed out and Van Zandt came to the same conclusion last night, AK has dug herself into a corner that she is going to have an impossible time getting out of no matter who struck that fatal blow. She's M1 with RG.
AK has dug herself into a corner that she is going to have an impossible time getting out of no matter who struck that fatal blow. She's M1 with RG.coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 4:33 pm
yep. RM thanks for the bidet stuff.
Also, how many women here have cut themselves that much when shaving their arms, underarms legs that much to leave that much blood that would not just wash away completely but also stick to a plug hole. cos I have never cut myself shaving often at all. and when I have, they are little worse than paper cuts.
and sorry to get gory/graphic/distasteful, but when I bathe while in menses, I never bleed into the bath water. and if i did in to shower water it wouldn't be that much. And are we to believe that AK bled so much from shaving or menses in to the plughole in the short time she lived there? are these cotton swabs 'tampones' ie lost in translation?
good counterpoint Loz. The big Q is if they do have a print, whose is it.
coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 4:33 pm | #
true. another question is, if there is a bloody fingerprint(s) on the jaw and not just a fingerprint per se) is RVS right when he says the murderer made the little cut when holding the jaw. maybe the killer did. before then doing it again & leaving bloodied finger marks.
but then, where would the blood come from. so, the killer held the jaw AFTER making the big cut?
"Don't Clint and Dennis know that AK and RS were at the cottage with Meredith in the afternoon of November 1? There is no "two days ago" established as the last time Amanda was there prior to the morning of Nov.2.
Were they lazy in their investigation, or deliberately choosing words to validate their opinions about the importance of this droplet?"
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 3:50 pm
---------------------
I am still with you on this AK blood in the sink/tap Pinecone, as I always have been. This is a solid circumstantial explanation. Also AK shows (then) no cut, no wound so where does her blood come from? It could be another Red Herring to get her rattled and to break her testimony to date.
But it is only one of many circumstantials she fighting off right now.
PS: can someone come up with a good shortcut/acronym for circumstantial evidence I'm getting tired of typing those two words?
sorry i mean CVS mybe was right about the small knife wounds & jaw grabbing in relation to this. but of they were bloodied finger marks on her jaw then actually someones blood had been drawn prior to that.
It still doesn't mean the knife wasn't used in this way either before and/or after the big cut.
coyotewaits,
Profiling is as much an art as it is a science. Art is abstract, while science tends to deal with the definitive.
The thing about profilers is they seem to fear being wrong, so they seldom put it all out on the table and go for broke. They kinda have this textbook format they follow and shy away from straying from the comforts of it.
When I give my thoughts and feelings on a crime, I do so by relating to the mind of these offenders. Not only from years of research and review, but through being able to relate *for lack of a better word) to them and their motivations.
I agree, with you that Van Zandt wasn't nearly as informative as we would have liked him to be. He eluded to Amanda and her "two masks," but a little elaboration would have been nice. He did little to break down any of the suspects' emotional states. I was waiting for a sociopath reference or two. It's almost too obvious not to mention.
I'm not sure of much, but I can feel some of the heat easing up on Rafe.
oh wait no, maybe she what, held her own jaw? I don't know why though.
It all just depend where on herjaw they are. whoops, I'd better read that article again...
yeah, I think read it wrong that there was bloodied fingermarks/prints on MKs jaw. sorry!
How accurate are the phone triangulating thingies, is it accurate enough to show where MKs phones were after her murder til being dumped?
Loz | 12.22.07 - 4:16 pm
The phones ping and triangulate with towers every second, that is how moving phones are able to transfer from tower to tower while in an active voice or data call without losing a connection. However, and this is important, cell phone providers do not store and record this pinging data as a time stamp. (Try doing the math). They technically can do it but engineers would have to pro-actively set up parameters to do it for a specific IMEI/IMSI, such as in a court ordered cell tap tracing or when looking for a missing person in a snow avalaunch, accident etc. This is the now required technology being mandated for 911, 112, 999. However keeping the records is not being mandated anywhere that I know of.
So for those phones being transporter while powered on and discarded, unless someone is trying to call those phones (which would be recorded by time stamp in the providers data base, their location and non-activity is unknown.
Hope that helps.
yes it does help thankyou coyotewaits.
Curious about one thing. Why after murdering MK did the killer or accomplices lock her bedroom door? Clearly she was not going anywhere if they assumed she was dead?
and what are the chances of legitimately dropping a small amount of your own blood, on/in the same spot another persons blood (are you saying that was legit too, prior to her murder say during shaving). and for those spots not to be cleaned, but to find each other.
WOAH pretty slim odds?
Loz | 12.22.07 - 4:20 pm
------------------------
Loz, is your supposition then that AK did cut herself (slightly?) one drop or two, (or many cleaning most away) either handling the knife (one of the knives) in MK room or in the bathroom cleaning the knife? But the cut is so small that it is not to be noticed by LE in the first four days/nights of her interrogation (night/morning of 5th/6th is her PL confession). It's possible they didn't notice band aid or small cut, as at that time they had no forensics of her blood.
Loz, is your supposition then that AK did cut herself (slightly?) one drop or two, (or many cleaning most away) either handling the knife (one of the knives) in MK room or in the bathroom cleaning the knife? But the cut is so small that it is not to be noticed by LE in the first four days/nights of her interrogation (night/morning of 5th/6th is her PL confession). It's possible they didn't notice band aid or small cut, as at that time they had no forensics of her blood.
coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 5:09 pm | #
yes, seems legitimate she injured herself during the attack, but don't you think it's more likely she used the bathroom sink to... I don't know I am tired andmy imagination won't stretch that far but you can slice yourself with a knife in cooking and it barley makes a mark but cos of capillaries you bleed? but enough to drip? either way it's unlikely. legit or unlegit. what if the scream at 2am was cos she hurt herself breaking the window? if there was one.
LOZ re Bidet. From the wiki article, I'd say it was invented for the ladies, re the first picture and its French origins.
Robert M. | 12.22.07 - 4:31 pm
but it works great for guys too, have them in my casa. They lady loves them for daily use and I use them after special occasions and then don't have to shower after those wonderful acts.
But they were made for the ladies, French that is.
but to me she used the bathroom sink as the cleanup sink, but then, what of the bleach. maybe it was bleached afterwards, I don't know.
puzzling.
Perhaps Rudy gripped MK's face with his right hand to immobilize her while he plunged the weapon through her throat with the other hand. He stabbed himself in the palm of the hand that was gripping her face. He hadn't considered that the wound would be through and through.
I'm still stuck on what was the weapon. The new information about the wound leads me to doubt even more that a knife was used.
Perhaps Rudy gripped MK's face with his right hand to immobilize her while he plunged the weapon through her throat with the other hand. He stabbed himself in the palm of the hand that was gripping her face. He hadn't considered that the wound would be through and through.
I'm still stuck on what was the weapon. The new information about the wound leads me to doubt even more that a knife was used.
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 5:17 pm | #
isn't it more likely that if he did stab/gash his own hand, he did it cos he was holding the other side of her neck & the knife went through & though. and stabbed his opposite hand?
Perhaps Rudy gripped MK's face with his right hand to immobilize her while he plunged the weapon through her throat with the other hand. He stabbed himself in the palm of the hand that was gripping her face. He hadn't considered that the wound would be through and through.
I'm still stuck on what was the weapon. The new information about the wound leads me to doubt even more that a knife was used.
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 5:17 pm | #
isn't it more likely that if he did stab/gash his own hand, he did it cos he was holding the other side of her neck & the knife went through & though. and stabbed his opposite hand?
Loz | 12.22.07 - 5:19 pm | #
Isn't that what I said?
saying that, if that was the case, it wouldn't be a gash but a punture & poss even go through his hand too.
if he held her jaw up from behind while he or someone else stabbed and the palm of his hand was not flat on her throat. then he could have grazed his other hand/gashed it.
I don't know about the wound and if all that is possible.
the gash is probably from something else/some other act that night.
Luke | 12.22.07 - 4:53 pm post:
Excellent comments on the 'profile' of a 'profiler', Luke. Sort of makes me . The professional profiler has his/her reputation to maintain "they seem to fear being wrong, so they seldom put it all out on the table and go for broke" ...especially when they are now consultants and in the public eye and not working in the background with their LE agency trying to really solve a case.
Isn't that what I said?
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 5:21 pm | #
did you?
I thought you hypothesised he used a piece of glass, yet only managed to sustain one cut on his hand LOL. rather than it being slashed to ribbons
infact, you said he used the glass from the window that he broke previously lol.
unless you JUST wrote it and i sub-conned read it. *reads back*
He showed the wound to photogs at the airport and he said the wound was narrow, but very deep. In other words, a stab. He claimed it was done by the real killer.
He showed the wound to photogs at the airport and he said the wound was narrow, but very deep. In other words, a stab. He claimed it was done by the real killer.
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 5:26 pm | #
ah. I thought it was being reported as a 'gash'. hmm. OK then. it was a stab.
also, so are there pics of it? this wound please? not seen any is all thanks
Curious about one thing. Why after murdering MK did the killer or accomplices lock her bedroom door? Clearly she was not going anywhere if they assumed she was dead?
Anonymous | 12.22.07 - 5:06 pm
I've always wondered this also from the very start, but haven't thought of it again, thanks anon, for bringing it up as it hasn't been discussed as a question that I can remember. The only thing I remember thinking about it is they locked it just in case any other person with access to the house came back and came into their flat. It would be in the "buying them the more time, viz a vie, the cover up strategy.
Thanks, Coyote. That's what I thought, too... They didn't want anyone else walking into the room. A stranger to the house(killer)would not have bothered locking the door.
Perhaps Rudy gripped MK's face with his right hand to immobilize her while he plunged the weapon through her throat with the other hand. He stabbed himself in the palm of the hand that was gripping her face. He hadn't considered that the wound would be through and through.
I'm still stuck on what was the weapon. The new information about the wound leads me to doubt even more that a knife was used.
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 5:17 pm | #
sorry pinecone, I did. soz. I have a habit of sometimes like if i'm standing in say my bathroom not looking at anything in particular just into space like bruhing my teeth or whatver, I think like allergy or glycerine or spearmint or whatever and it's usually if i then look & read on some label in front of me.
sorry. props to you.
RHG was defo the actual killer then,uless someone lse made the stab to his hand BUT more likely him.
what do you hink though of MKs eating a late quite rapidly digestible snack, presumably having time to wash up (don't know what ILE found next day), but RHG being gone by 10:30, having done a lot of activity in the house? and THAT'S just what activity the evidence shows.
legit or unlegit. what if the scream at 2am was cos she hurt herself breaking the window? if there was one.
Loz | 12.22.07 - 5:14 pm
I'd say your imagination is working quite well. Very possible, break window with stone (didn't they find a stone on the floor in Filomena's room), glass cuts when broken if you are not careful (i.e., they didn't go outside and throw the stone from way down in the gully & drop off. Cut's self, cursing again, and runs back to bathroom to fix it up and wash again.
The new information about the wound leads me to doubt even more that a knife was used. pinecone
you mean because it was through and through? if it was say a large screwdriver, then what of the little cuts under her chin?
I'd say your imagination is working quite well. Very possible, break window with stone (didn't they find a stone on the floor in Filomena's room), glass cuts when broken if you are not careful (i.e., they didn't go outside and throw the stone from way down in the gully & drop off. Cut's self, cursing again, and runs back to bathroom to fix it up and wash again.
coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 5:39 pm | #
I agree about my imgination. it's too far fetched.
I am trying not to go there with regards to who did the final dastardly stab. AK, RG or even RS. But I am interested in everyone's speculation and scenario on this.
But the real eye opener for me is the PP at his desk in the Dateline last night showing Dennis with his letter opener what the stab was like. Did anyone here even ever imagine what the stab and wound was really like, "all the way through her neck"? That was a new fact for me. PERIOD. Why was all the media reports focused on the knife and its size, instead of on the coroner's autopsy report and the wound? Why again?
and what are the chances of legitimately dropping a small amount of your own blood, on/in the same spot another persons blood (are you saying that was legit too, prior to her murder say during shaving). and for those spots not to be cleaned, but to find each other.
WOAH pretty slim odds?
Loz | 12.22.07 - 4:20 pm
I detest balancing evidence off of the what-has-happened-to me thinking, but in the old days, I had LOTS of experience in larger group living arrangements. Two sisters, countless student apartments filled with extra permanent overnight guests (one very unhappy older teen child of star showed up one day, moved in, and brought our total in 2-bedrooms to 12--1970 of course; no one could figure out how billy even KNEW us), and most relevant perhaps, a couple years in a huge sorority house with 60 young women.
I have never seen those sorts of drops of blood. And as you say, Loz, what are the odds? VERY very slim.
This is very significant evidence, as we all know.
PS The bathrooms in the sorority house served multiple users, like big restaurants, but all 60 cycled through one or the others. SO it was not 2 or 4 sharing. It would be a different story at Dodger Stadium. Ick.
I agree about my imgination. it's too far fetched.
Loz | 12.22.07 - 5:43 pm
no, I meant that I think your imagination is excellent, very skeptical, analytical and hypothesis testing. You keep me on my toes in this thread and always have. I like your thinking.
you mean because it was through and through? if it was say a large screwdriver, then what of the little cuts under her chin?
Loz | 12.22.07 - 5:40 pm
I think a large screwdriver would fit the bill for those shallow cuts too. Maybe it was a multi-purpose screwdriver that belonged to the killer. He could use it to open locked doors, or he could use it as a weapon.
I fully believe at least two knives were used, most likely held by at least two different people at any given time.
The fact that Rafe has a seemingly bizarre fascination with knives, yet none of his collected knives were used, does a lot to clear him of the stabbing, in my mind.
If Rafe was the killer, he would have gone into the house with a particular fantasy in mind. It would have been a scenario he obsessively played out in his head, over and over, down to the tiniest detail. I would stake just about anything on the fact that it would have been important to him to use one of his own knives. This would serve a symbolic purpose, as well as provide for a trophy of sorts. He would lay in his bed at night, staring at the blade, reliving every moment of the heinous event.
I have to say, of all the people involved, I see him as the "premeditated" type.
With Rudy, I see him as having his motivation ( for the record, I would reopen the books on any unsolved peeping tom and sexual assaults in Perugia and surrounding towns) and Amanda had hers.... revenge.
I believe that Amanda held a blade up under Meredith's chin at one point, placing both of their DNA on the knife that was later found in Rafe's flat.
There was a mention of strangulation marks on Meredith's neck. I move that Rudy may have been assaulting her from behind, gripping her firmly around the neck and throat. Perhaps, just perhaps, Amanda cut his hand on the "through and through."
I hate to jump to any conclusions, but I honestly feel like Amanda was front and center in all of this.
Luke: I agree on the two knives. And i see Rafe as the catalyst in the situation, Amanda as the connector. Both inflicted injury. Interesting,Amanda cutting Rudy's hand.
We really need to know about RS's computer usage (at least) days before and days after including any university library computers he used with his student ID/access. Same with big A. Public computers may be a factor in this case, and an overwhelming challenge to check, but likely library machines should be looked into especially with regard to Amanda.
Best.
PS The bathrooms in the sorority house served multiple users, like big restaurants, but all 60 cycled through one or the others. SO it was not 2 or 4 sharing. It would be a different story at Dodger Stadium. Ick.
xin | 12.22.07 - 5:55 pm
If you looked at those bathrooms using a forensic light source, you'd see things you never imagined were there. Same thing with your own clean bathroom at home.
You are right PC.I don't want those kinds of lights on the subject.
(What are you wearing?)
Amanda was obviously much better at cleaning the bathroom than Meredith gave her credit for. Well, with exception to remembering to clean the toilet. Guess some old habits do die hard....
Amanda was obviously much better at cleaning the bathroom than Meredith gave her credit for. Well, with exception to remembering to clean the toilet. Guess some old habits do die hard....
Luke | 12.22.07 - 7:20 pm | #
2 different bathrooms?
Part I Giving this one more stab, no pun intended, but with a new twist for my fellow posters to consider. It is based on three posts today along with my dialogs with Luke and Loz. And forgive me contibutors for not posting your post time stamp but do take the recognition as I am sure everyone will remember their ideas.
Robert's Why the Clean up posts.
Anon's Why the closed and locked MK room/door, post.
forgetting poster's name Seems like AK & RG have some kind of pact of loayalty together, why don't they rat out each other post.
The only assumption definitely needed is LE's there was a cleanup
Please bear with me, I know this is one of my usual long posts but I wish to know if it will play at all as a possiblility, so please read and and pick it apart.
Scenario: RS was never there. Not during or after for a cleanup. He wasn't there until the next day at AK behest.
AK & RG were the only ones in the flat and both were in MK room together, each with their own nefarious and malicious reasons. Perhaps the initial intent wasn't out right murder but each here can fill in their own reasons and actual scenario as to why it ended up as it did. The dastardly deed happens.
Maybe some irrational panic on AK's part, but none on RG. He splits, doesn't need to threaten AK into silence because she is already guilty and his partner in crime.
This takes away the WhyTF didn't AK and RS just call the cops and tell them, in gushing tears, we were just having a party and MK and RG went off by themselves and the next thing we know......it's two nice Perugia white students against the word of RG. It also takes away the why the cleanup even if AK had to go get him and convince him to help her if he wasn't already involved. How could RS, knowing AK for just 2 weeks come back there with her and decide the best course was to do a cover up rather than the "blame RG" strategy above.
Part IISo AK did the clean up and break in stuff herself, alone not making it back to RS until around 11:30 -12:00 AM, (it was a quick and poorly executed clean up) plastic bag in hand, cleanup sponge, bloody sweatshirt, knife, any other materials in the bag. This is why there is a pack between RG and AK not to finger one another. They both know they were both there and RG knows he dead with the forensics already and if AK fingers him, he knows enough that he can prove she was also there so the AK knows her "me against him story" won't fly.
All kinds of circumstantial details? Have at it and pick this possiblilty apart with the evidence and suspects statements please. AK turned the cells phones off at 8:40 PM herself, she left at 8:30 - 8:38 herself, just a few minutes there could be a little flex or she could have taken both RS and her cell phones or could have left them but turned off. She took the knife, etc., etc. P.S. wasn't on his computer, he was asleep.
Finally the locked door and the "I going over to take a shower and get some fresh clothes." Why? I always wondered why didn't she just take a shower at RS's. Why didn't she just wait until RS got up and they both go over to her place. What was so imprtant that just she went back first in the morning. If they had both been involved in a clean up during the night before and wanted to go back and do a last check up, why wouldn't RS have been ready to go also with AK in the first place.
The door was closed and locked so that when AK came back to RS to play out her "something strange at my house scene" it was staged just like it happened. They come back, AK shows him Filomena's room, broken window, little blood left (purposely?) and ...... of course, no dead body in site, not yet. Let's show my total innocence by letting RS figure out what I (we) should do.
Unfortunately when they go outside to do what RS suggests, call his sister, some trouble stops by instead with two cell phones that RG had taken with in when he left. Two weeks. Two faces of Amanda by Clint Van Zandt. Two killers. Two cell phones. Two knives. Two bathrooms with evidence. Too much pain for all of us in what they did.
I still baffled myself, but imspired by Loz and Luke's creative imaginations.
I'll check back in with you great gals and guys tomorrow. Obligations to the holiday weekend social clubbing required. Happy week end to all, and prayers again for the Kerchers at this very lonely and permanent heart break of times.
That's a Hell of a scenario, coyote, and it does make a lot of sense...
I think Rafe's biggest mistake was lying that he had never been in the room. His foot print was clearly found in blood under the duvet and his fingerprints were found on the door, as possibly the last person to close the door.
I'm not sure just how much Rafe was involved, but unless Meredith was wrapped in the duvet and drug to the spot near the bed, someone covered her with the duvet. As I have pointed out before, this is usually an act of contrition/remorse. It often points to the killer knowing the victim, perhaps allowing their victim to have that last bit of dignity, especially if they feel guilt after their act.
In this case, I think perhaps Rafe covered Meredith, but I can't be sure...
LUKE re Amanda front & center.
Nope, not jumping to conclusions! THAT was the whole point of much of posting on Halo I: connector, catalyst, fatal wound inflictor. I'm sure I wrote even that when she "indavertently" thrust the knife into the neck, she wasn't "seeing" Meredith, but rather her mother Edda. Find a pic of Edda and match it up against Meredith. They look more alike than Amanda and Edda.
I've now backed off to Rudy did the fatal wound out of frustration with Meredith's resistance, with Amanda and Rudy's friend hooking up in Amanda's room. Having yet another strange man in her room leaving prints is definitely something that would have motivated her to spic & span her room as apparently it was done. Getting rid not of Rafe but Rudy & RF's traces.
Part III Forgot to add. If it has to be the three of them were all there, then they all three had to be in MK room when she was murdered, they all three have to be guilty and know it, for the same argument that AK can't risk a rat out of RG only. There is a pack to beat the rap. AK & RS both know that RG knows too much and some important details to their guilt. Cleanup was the only option. But if it's three, not two above, then I am back to my original theory, it was pre-med, AK & RS.
to shower cw, don't cut yourself shaving
In this case, I think perhaps Rafe covered Meredith, but I can't be sure...
Luke | 12.22.07 - 8:01 pm |
We agree again.
How does Rudy's bloody handprint on the pillow fit in with the theory that other people moved the body? Did they move the pillow too?
This may not be useful to anyone else, but I was trying to collate the various reports on the bathroom evidence so I could get it clear in my head, using the links to reports already posted. So here are extracts from the reports, followed by a summary in the next post:
La Stampa 21st December - posted by ann arbor | 12.21.07 - 12:31 pm http://tinyurl.com/yth833
Scientific Police identified two new traces of blood and DNA attributable to Amanda Knox and Meredith Kercher in the bathroom...
... the DNA of American student Amanda Knox was found in blood on the sink tap, and the mixture of DNA belonging to Amanda and Meredith has been identified within the same basin, near the tap.
Traces of both Amanda's and Meredith's DNA (mixed) were then found by the Police Scientific experts on a box of plastic cotton swabs next to the sink in the bathroom.
The DNA of Knox, in fact, had already been found by scientific police experts on the handle of the knife seized at the home of Raffaele, with the DNA of Kercher found on the tip, while DNA mixture of the two students had been identified in the bidet in the bathroom of the cottage.
The small residual DNA mixture of the two girls found in the sink might have occurred as dirty(bloody) hands were washed in the sink, hands that may have touched the box of cotton swabs placed nearby, leaving the new evidence.
La Repubblica 21st December - posted by ann arbor | 12.21.07 - 1:33 pm http://tinyurl.com/3ygjmx
... mixed DNA belonging to the student in Seattle and the victim, Meredith Kercher, isolated... on blood stains found in one of two bathrooms of the house on Via della Pergola.
In particular, the DNA was isolated on two distinct blood stains: one found in the sink, close to the tap, and the other on a box of cotton swabs supported on the edge of the basin.
The bathroom where the DNA was isolated is next to the chamber Meredith's bedroom, not the bathroom where they found DNA of Rudy.
The Times 21st/22nd December - posted by Viv | 12.21.07 - 2:07 pm http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/
europe/article3084751.ece
Police investigating the death of Meredith Kercher have found her DNA “mixed” with that of Amanda Knox, her American housemate, in a bloodstained washbasin at the house where the murder occurred.
Police said that the “mixed DNA” of Ms Knox and Ms Kercher was on two separate bloodstains, one near the plughole of a basin in a bathroom at the house, and the other on a box of cotton wool balls on the side of the basin.
There are two bathrooms at the house, one next to Ms Kercher’s bedroom — where the mixed DNA was found in the basin — and another one in which the traces of Mr Guede’s DNA were found earlier, including traces on faeces left in the toilet.
Ms Knox’s DNA had already also been found in bloodstains in the bidet and washbasin tap of the bathroom next to Ms Kercher’s bedroom.
CNN 21st December - posted by Loz | 12.21.07 - 4:59 pm http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORL...kercher.murder/
Alberto Intini, Italy's chief forensic officer, said traces of Amanda Knox's blood had been found "mixed together" with Kercher's blood in a sink in the bathroom at the villa they shared.
Intini said blood belonging to the two women was also found on a box of cotton swabs on the side of the sink. He told CNN that drops of Kercher's blood were also found on the bathroom floor.
Prosecutors have already uncovered a number of pieces of evidence which they say link Knox to the scene of the crime, including a blood stain found on the faucet of the bathroom sink that matched Knox's DNA.
Intini said the new evidence was found in a separate part of the same sink, although he did not specify where.
Asked why it had taken so long to come to light, he said forensics had uncovered over 200 "organic" pieces of evidence from the murder scene and the process of identifying where they all came from was taking a long time.
Using the above reports, these are the locations and details of the DNA / bloodstains found by forensics. I'm not claiming that this is accurate - after all, we're dependent on news media, who are dependent on what the police and lawyers release... but there you go. And if I've misconstrued anything, apologies:
Bathroom 1 next to Meredith's bedroom
Sink basin - mixed DNA / blood traces (CNN - location unspecified; The Times - near plughole; La Repubblica - close to tap; La Stampa - near the tap.)
Sink tap - bloodstain containing Knox's DNA (CNN; The Times; La Stampa.)
Sink tap 2 (?) - Knox's DNA (La Stampa)
Sink edge - mixed DNA / blood traces on cotton wool box (CNN; The Times; La Repubblica; La Stampa.)
Floor - drops of Meredith's blood (CNN)
Bidet - bloodstain(s) containing Knox's DNA (The Times) AND/OR mixed DNA belonging to both women (La Stampa)
Bathroom 2
Loo - Guede's faeces (The Times; La Repubblica.)
Unspecified locations - further Guede DNA (The Times; La Repubblica.)
Viv:
That must have taken awhile. It is helpful.
So if I am reading this correctly only one out of the four news sources says Knox's DNA is from blood? The other three are reporting DNA contributions were found in blood but not necessarily her blood. So 75% of the reportage reports mixed DNA but not necessarily from Knox blood. Didn't she go in that bathroom (I assume touching things) in the morning she went and took a shower? I am not sure on that.
Also I was checking on the grey and white man's sweatshirt Amanda was wearing the night of the murder which the news source says was dirty and was mentioned by the other flatmates. I thought the other flatmates were gone that night?
I assume this is a different sweatshirt then the "blue" one reported to have been taken from RS house along with bloodsoaked rags and sponge. These were countered by RS lawyers by stating that RS often had nosebleeds. More nosebleeds.
Cheers Seattleite - the answer to the DNA / blood question is one I dunno the answer to. That's why I posted the extracts. And of course the Repubblica / Stampa reports have been translated...
I get the impression that the DNA was extracted from blood samples in all cases. Some of the reports talk about DNA, others about blood, others about DNA-from-blood. Who knows what the police reports say, precisely? I expect this will become clear later.
I don't know enough about the sweatshirt to comment on that - or the proliferation of bloody noses in Perugia.
So if I am reading this correctly only one out of the four news sources says Knox's DNA is from blood? The other three are reporting DNA contributions were found in blood but not necessarily her blood. So 75% of the reportage reports mixed DNA but not necessarily from Knox blood. Didn't she go in that bathroom (I assume touching things) in the morning she went and took a shower? I am not sure on that.
****
Good point on all Amanda's DNA evidence not being blood.
As far as her using the bathroom that morning, I don't know. But we do know AK and RS were at the cottage for a couple of hours the afternoon of Nov. 1, while Meredith was also there.
Can someone please tell me if witness statements are recorded on tape in Italy? Or are they taken down in handwriting (like the McCann's case?). I ask because the article below claims the police want to to talk to Meredith's friends to hear "again" the details Knox appeared to know about the death (before the police even knew the details).
If the statements were recorded - why would they need to hear from Meredith's friends again, unless they are hoping for new information (which hasn't been made clear).
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/
w...2231827,00.html
--------------------------
Hi SOozie:
Well,my favorite, Frank at perugia-shock.blogspot.com has a lengthy new column just up, he does a good job of reviewing the situation, even via googlese, and in it he includes comments about recalling six friends again. He thinks they want to dig for ANY comments Amanda may have made (like Rudy and his dump) between the murder and her arrest. He thinks comments may provide clues to what she knew happened before she was a suspect. Moreabout her behavior, comments...everything they can recall her saying--which makes sense to me. Maybe the cops were focused on the crime-related comments enough to miss casual comments that may have come back to the young ladies by now.
I think it makes sense. Go through all the details of their encounters with Amanda.
----
Frank's column is in Italian today, but he googles into English as a *comment* then he says "Now I gotta go to disco, cause I'm dangerous too.
'in contemporanea' means 'at the same time'
Judge. '..le tracce ematiche della Knox in un bagno, e i segni inequivoci della presenza in contemporanea, nell'altro bagno, di Guede.'
The judge says AK and RG were in the different bathrooms at the same time.
Frank's take is rather like ours near the column's end, or rather Loz' point, paraphrased as "two DNA mixes is one too many". Certainly makes Amanda look good for handling the body at least. Of course he follows that with "Almeno, se l'interpretazione è corrett"--IF the interpretation is correct. I know I can explain the mix in the washbasin. The mix on the cotton swabs is the "one too many".
They turn up mixed blood or mixed DNA in OTHER more unlikely places, then her father really needs an experienced in both countries, Italian-American lawyer to talk to. Prosecutors game plan seems now to wait them all out if necessary, so that the final final report sometime in March will have all evidence processed. No one breaks by then, M1 charges in April. So somewhere between Ides of March & Tax Filing Time will be Final Deal Time.
Regards to all at this holiday season.
TOXICOLOGY QUESTION:
Has it been established whether a drug screening test was done on the suspects?
I don't know much about pot, but it seems pot usage would make the participants mellow, not violent. Not capable of having violent urges while stoned. Any hostility towards Meredith would be softened, if they were stoned on hash, no?
However, if crazy Rudy committed the crime, it may explain the others in their mellow stoned state and their indifference to intervene when Rudy commits the act and later, notify authorities?
Not having personal pot experience, but talking to friends who do, I don't see these having the physical rage it would take to commit this act with pot? But perhaps other drugs? Cocaine? Meth?
Alcohol makes most of us mellow, but I know in others it can create rage and meanness.
What kind of mix is pot with alcohol?
Of course, if they came clean about cocaine use that night, they wouldn't help their case, would they?
I'm thinking other drugs were involved. Any thoughts? Proof one way or the other?
My thoughts and prayers to Meredith's family. It's hard to imagine a more horrid thing to have to live with in this lifetime.
Let's pray for justice in this case.
PS: can someone come up with a good shortcut/acronym for circumstantial evidence I'm getting tired of typing those two words?
coyotewaits | 12.22.07 - 4:45 pm | #
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CE is commonly used on boards.
My take on Clint Van Zant. I cannot tell you how many times that I have followed cases and anxiously await some show whether it be Dateline, Greta's On the Record or Nancy Grace and after watching it realize that I have gained only a dribble of info.
A. often crime boards are filled with passionate and intelligent people that have mulled over every single detail to the point that they are more informed than the talking heads used in these shows
B. I am not sure if this applies to television but newspapers are often geared to an 8th grade reading level so perhaps the producers of shows such as Dateline want to make sure it clear, concise and a bit basic for the "masses". Even the psychiatrists have difficulty defining the concepts of psychopaths and sociopaths.
I have a question for anyone in the know:
Usually with the study abroad programs affiliated with colleges there is more than one student in each of the abroad locations. Was there another Univ. of Washington student studying in Perugia?
I was just wondering if we heard anything from that student if there was one.
that'd be interesting having a real translation of Frank's last article on perugia-shock. I think he explains why they can't be condemned or something.
there's no one who could provide?
I ran parts of Frank's piece through BabelFish and the output was just that--babel. There's a lot of nuances in there only a good reader/speaker can figure out. Each paragraph had about 3 or 5 untranslated words!
SOOZIE UK --> The interviews were NOT taped. Just had-notes. As was ALL of Amanda's & Rafe's. Rudy we don't know about. If ANYTHING, I'd suspect they'd early love to have ALL of Amanda's gyrations on tape, just for the shrinks to have a go at for how to approach. But Perugia LE used their "Chicago" style interview techniques. Hopefully, they'll take the next CSI step into the 1990s and TAPE the interviews with the friends. Who of course already know just why they've been asked back, and if anyone of them really has it in for Amanda (& why not?), tales may grow more lurid.
Oh and ANON., as your questions sound a bit new-poster, please pick a handle to post with next-time. Thanks.
Could the shoe, the man's shoe, have fit AK? She could have "borrowed" shoes that evening, given the penchant to weat mates clothing. Nothing unusual in that, just thinking. Then during clean up, she could have worn heels, excited and ready for some fun with Raf, and left the unknown print. Just thinking little things at a time here.
OOPS! Weat + wear. Ugh..
Um, weat equal wear, good grief! Also, the heel could have, very sadistically, been Meredith's own.
anon: we've heard pretty much zip about tox screens except that MK's was clean.
crack cocaine or meth are what fits the crime, but it has not come up yet. Rudy definitely sounds like a crack-head. Defense attorneys are happy when the speculation is pot...hash, but this was not a pot-hash scene.
The information about the fatal wound trumps Rudy's "af" story. What was his motive for inventing that tale?
Pinecone | 12.22.07 - 3:18 pm |
Ummmm....the RS killed her?
Okay, maybe I will try posting here. Just thinking little things right now. Don't know if you have covered it yet. Could AK have been wearing Raf's shoes that evening? Given the penchant to wear her lover's clothing, nothing wrong in that, and then during clean up time put on some heels? Even worse, perhaps Meredith's own heels, but heels obviously. Could have just been excited and changed to go back to see Raf in the heels??? Just thinking out loud.
Crap! Sorry, looks like the posts went through before. Did not mean to mutliple it... (hands over head in shame)
Yes, ?s, covered and rejected since forensics would notice wear patterns.
No reference yet to Amanada ever wearing heels, not really her style, but of course, she may have a pair with her for fashion events. This was not a fashion event. The need to be able to run and hide dictated garb for the evening apparently.
Thanks xin for forgiving the multi posts. I know AK did not prefer heels, but could have put some on for the clean up. To distract. Not necessarily her own. Eh, I am a bit behind. Wear patterns would not show as distintcly if your foot is in a friends shoe, not your own was my thought. Very basic. Thanks though.
Newspapers come in at about 4th grade (9 yr old) reading level.
SOme are SHOCKED that newspapers are not "reliable" which I find in itself shocking. Newspapers are the medium of advertising. Like a piece of toast is a medium for butter.
It's about SALES and MONEY and not really about intelligence. Just a packaging for advertising, pretty much. One must read dozens of them to be able to put together any sort of story.
The discussion of the quality of news coverage is really too banal for here, and off-topic. I'm assuming that most intelligent posters have figured out that most *journalists* are not very smart, and in my experience, their homes are devoid of books with big words.
MOST are not very smart, and simply pick up, enhance, and pass along the echo of easy information, then forget about it.
Yes. I have been in many homes of journalists, anchor people, and that whole ilk and it is pretty fucking depressing. Not as depressing as being in a newsroom and watching tv reporters reading the paper to come up with their bits.
I'll stop at that.
No, No, go on! Tales from the Left Coast are so Nancy Mitfordish. And she & her ilk are missed. As for TVers, that's why the Brits call them as they are: "presenters". Anything more is icing on the cake.
Its just that the crowd I grew up with, a good number of fathers were serious journalists, fine magazine writers (LIFE in the old days, and even FORTUNE was always a cut above), even if several were truly self-educated as late 30s & 40s youngish war-people. A few Times people. If I dated their daughters, I would scan for the books. Hard to tell at a distance but the spines weren't Readers Digest 4in1s.
Frank at "Perugia Shock" has just added a short essay on two of the fathers: Francesco Solletico & Roger Guede, and what they are up to. Francesco seems to have found a purpose in life and there's no microphone nor TV camera he doesn't like. As for Roger, he arrived by bus, not sports car, and alone, not with a fiancee on his arm. But unlike the people who had adopted Rudy, he is there for his son.
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
Has there been any interviews published or mentioned in regards to the two Italian roommates? Filomena (sp) and the other? I know they were with family at the time of the crime however do they have any input?
What kind of mix is pot with alcohol?
anonymous
a wobbly-head whitey mix! followed by vomiting.
Loz..............How do you know?...lol
Indeed Loz. Blow + booze = mighty hurling...
Robert M., I think I grew up around journalists like the ones you knew. My dad's generation covered the Cuban rumpus, Cyprus, Vietnam, the oil crisis and Uganda; some of my friends have reported from Gaza, Westminster, Delhi and Moscow. I frankly envy their book collections (especially those of the fortunate swine who get review copies...) Perhaps I'm a lucky git, but I guess I know the group subtracted from Xin's Most. I have never met Jeremy Paxman, Kate Adie, Jon Snow and Kirsty Wark - but would have to be a total muppet to presume they're thick.
Of course any intelligent bod will read a range of papers, watch or listen to a range of news programmes, and use that intelligence to sift the information... but Xin, I can't agree with you that newspapers are just packaging for ads. Yes, they have powerful proprietors, grinding axes; they can flit from one big story to the next, ignoring millions of others; they don't get everything right. But we know that, and take all these things into account when we read them.
Take away my 'media', however flawed it may be, and what am I left with? Government announcements and a new-minted Pravda? Crikey, I'll take the Street of Shame over that. It's rough, gets things wrong, gets other things right, and we take it for granted. Go ask my pal in Putin's Russia.
(have overdone the pre-festive port, so will state the obvious - none of us would be here without the on- or off-line papers, telly or radio).
I passed through translator Frank's piece about Francesco and Roger but I don't know what doesn't work.
Does it maybe change "I" for "he" and "we" for "them"?
Viv - "none of us would be here without the on- or off-line papers, telly or radio)"
-------------------
OR the internet. Long live the internet. It's given us this unique opportunity to discuss a subject that's been upsetting for many of us. And also, it's comforting to be able to 'meet' here and put forward our thoughts and theories.
-----------------
Been thinking about all this media coverage in Italy about this crime and the active participation of not only the prosecution's statements (leaks?) about the evidence but the very active participation of the defense attorneys and in the case of RS, his father and now apparently RG and his adopted father. (Also noting the absence of similar activity from the AK camp).
Many of us, I included, have a disdainful attitude to this "drama queen" Italian coverage, translated and passed to the UK and USA press and with critical and justified skepticism of the journalists' reporting and coverage of what are facts and what is speculation.
Is it just all the Italian passion for operatic drama, death, passion, love, dying passionate pleas, etc.?....or could it be actually a part of a traditional legal process that works as well for adjudication in its own way as those corresponding processes work in the UK, USA and other countries?
(see next post)
he/she/it are equal no gender hangup in the grammar
sollecitor: urge prompt
of course there are exceptions.
of course.
i have met and worked with several of the greats, too, but those are the greats
Part II What I have noted is the process of justified detention of suspects before arrest and indictment for trial; and how it has been working and reported.
From my observations it goes something like this.
ILE investigates a crime of murder. They gather forensic evidence, interview witnesses, persons of interest, and from that input and analysis thereof pursues suspects. From that, ILE, unlike in the USA, do not go to the court seeking valid and in their eyes, warrants for arrest and formal indictment leading to trial, but instead seeks the court's approval to detain, in prison persons of interest that given the evidence they present to the court justifies their request; while they continue their investigation.
This is different in a fundamental way. In the USA, arrests do not happen until a case is established against the suspect[s] that a prosecutor is confident will stand in court for a conviction of guilty as charged. Given the power of the Italian system to in-prison a suspect who may be innocent, definitely an advantage to the prosecution (read the publics' prosecutor) what is the recourse of the in-prisoned suspect.
In the USA it is a financial bail system. In Italy, with no bail, no habeas corpus per se, AND no formal charges, arrests or indictments leading to a next step of formal trial, it can only be the exchange of public dialog, challenges in the public forum of opinion and thus pressure upon the court to hear "appeals" from the suspects attorneys. Such appeals upon request to force the prosecution to return to the court with "sufficient evidence" (read new and more evidence given the challenges from the defense or fathers of the suspects).
The process repeats itself, with an appeal from the defense, a counter presentation from the prosecution all based on a judges Q & A of the suspect/defense and the prosecution as to the validity of the evidence presented. (see next post)
my ex was a producer-director for 25 years for one of the traditional big three networks. he won the heart of the New York suits (at the National Association of Broadcasters convention) after he and the big shot in charge of all network operations figured out how they could reduce news overhead with one piece of meat (talent) and one camera, and go to robots for the whole f'ing thing. god, we laughed so hard. No matter who was anchoring at our station, they were called "Sibyl."
whenever a big story broke he'd call and say, "they're slugging it out the news room, there's barbara with a right hook, OH GOD, candace is on the floor, her nose is bleeding--gotta go courtney's getting ready to hit jim over the head with a chair."
anyhow, that's just the ex's side of the media world, there was my side too, so we were fairly immersed for a while there. I worked in mass communications, news media, since I graduated from college.
but we did get to go around the world and meet presidents and see (another fav moment) the dead President Marcos
lying in state in his home, surrounded by toilet paper roses, being serenaded by a phoney baloney priest with a cheap tape-recorder playing "Nearer My God to the Thee" while we ate popcorn out of a priceless (almost) giant cloissane bowl with Imelda.
neither of us miss it at all, which surprises us both, but we still got some miles left from it.
why can't we sing about peace love and understanding?
(I've done some favors by not mentioning names; in that world you see people one of two ways: they are at their best, or they are at their worst. No in-between.)
Part III What are the consequences and purposes of this process. Obviously we noted from the presses' early reports that it means the detention of POI that could flee the jurisdiction (country), commit further crimes of the same nature, or compromise the evidence by being free of prison to do so.
The key though is to force the POI, through the appeal process to return to the court and justify and counter the evidence presented thus far to the court by the prosecution for their continued detention.
I guess I might offer the metaphor as a cat and mouse game, but it is quite serious and justified on the part of both parties. E.g., RS defense: father on public TV and press interviews in a key role and pressures the prosecution's contentions about a knife seized, a footprint photographed and compared to a shoe seized, a piece of DNA taken for sequencing and ID'ing, etc. to justified such evidence.
When added in, by the prosecution, interview statements from the suspects the judge has the power to inquire of the suspects why, where, when, what is your explanation of this and that evidence.
Thus what I observe is sort of a preliminary pre-trial before trial process that continues until formal charges are brought or not brought. The process in this case of murder can continue for year.
I do not necessary admire this system, I would have to hear in depth the pros and cons before considering my opinion, but if my observations are correct, I certainly respect this system.
Whatever, I think that we can expect a continuation of this process ad nausea, as it might appear, over the next few months resulting in the release of even more evidence justifying the prosecutions theory that the suspects they have requested to be detained are is in fact warranted. (see last post, next)
Part IV end This continued challenge to the PP from the defense in the public forum forces the public prosecutor (PP) to return to the crime scene, to re analysis forensic evidence, and if you will release and announce (leak?) their re-examinations, embarrassing to themselves or also maybe more damaging to the suspects as the case may be.
To me, this does not excuse the media from the obligation to use the highest of journalistic standards in reporting this dialog between the prosecution, the defense and the court; in fact it requires even more disciplined media reporting.
My opinion is strongly on the side that the media, as others here more knowledgeable than me of the inside nature of media operations and corporate agendas know, is far from doing the public an honest report.
Thus, if my thoughts on this Italian system is close to accurate, the missing link and my criticism is that the court does not release directly to the public, transcripts of the hearings and the prosecutor's evidence in detail and the defense's exculpatory rebuttal to that evidence.
Isn't this what is going on?
Thanks for the good post, cw. I think the court is lacking dignity under that system. I prefer a system whose judges are neutral, rather than prosecutorial or investigative.
Whatever, I think that we can expect a continuation of this process ad nausea, as it might appear, over the next few months resulting in the release of even more evidence justifying the prosecutions theory that the suspects they have requested to be detained are is in fact warranted.
coyotewaits | 12.23.07 - 9:23 pm |
They'll have to keep going because the suspects can demand compensation if they were unjustly detained. Prosecutors/investigators/judges have a year to come up with something. I believe it can be extended to two years in murder cases.
I prefer a system whose judges are neutral, rather than prosecutorial or investigative.
Pinecone | 12.23.07 - 10:16 pm | #
Me too.
Yes, dignity for the citizen in the eyes of the law; a fine tradition. That's what is meant by innocent until proven guilty, to me--equal in the eyes of the law.
MY TRANSLATION FROM ITALIAN (from PERUGIA SHOCK)
FIRST HALF (Second half to follow...)
Francesco Sollecito, after a lifetime of having people go pee, nowadays is living a second youth. In addition to his son in jail, these seem to be the most beautiful days of his life. He's left his job and he's moved to Perugia where he's living an endless honeymoon with his fiancee. He, an anonymous urologist from a faraway province of the South now has microphones and TV cameras in his face from all over the world. The fame that his profession did not give him, he has achieved today thanks to the misfortunes of his son. And he seems to have found himself perfectly at ease. Who knows, maybe he too has begun to find pleasure in drugs.
But, joking aside, he certainly is not an actor in the performance of this crime. He keeps everything constantly under control, he studies the legal papers. He goes back and forth between Capanne, Pergola Street, legal office, the Court House, Matrix and Porta a Porta. Where there are journalists, he rushes, he takes charge, verifies and answers questions with precision, always saying useful things in defense of his sweet son.
And if some TV program, should forget to invite him, he doesn't think twice, he calls. And steals the scene, even from afar. The other evening at Matrix, he defended his son, much, much better than what his attorneys were doing, and inevitably he became the reference point of the discussion.
In the beginning, he didn't make a good impression . To those who questioned that his son collected knives, he responded: "So what? I collect guns." I bet che everyone was thinking: "And the grandmother, what does she collect, machine guns?"
But then I think he began, little by little, to win over part of the public, because he was sincere. When he said that he was displeased to have discovered that his son smoked hashish, when you could read in his eyes the terror of losing his son, in a way, after losing his wife. The son that he phoned every night. The son that, one can see is made from a different mould. The son son lost in hashish and in a knife fetish, capable of being manipulated by a girl who was cheating on him, capable of getting himself involved in a murder. That Raffalele, who, no matter how things go, seems to everyone, honestly, indefendable.
END OF PART ONE; Second part to follow
Thanks so much anonymous the google translate just doesn't get it for me,especially for "Perugia Shock"
MY TRANSLATION FROM ITALIAN (from PERUGIA SHOCK)
Second Half...
------------------------------------
"And what can be said of Roger Guede?
Fate had him born destitute, and life had only adversity in store for him. Life had him lose his son. He wasn't able to phone his son in the evening, if he was able to even imagine, his faraway son.
When he returned to Italy, he met him on a bus and was, by then, the "son" of someone else. No show hugs, not the tears from a TV show. Not even that for him. Only the reciprocal embarassment of someone who by then did not believe he was his son anymore and someone who thought he couldn't have even have paternal dignity, only the simple; "How are you doing?" and "Hello." He found him now,this time, not on a bus, but defendant in Meredith Kercher's murder.
A good man, without blame, honest, fair. Now it's not the rich people that have adopted Rudy in an attempt to pull him out of his problems, but it is he, poor Roger.
The rich people have disappeared. They already sent the overgrown puppy back, lending a hand in creating his criminal nature. Those people didn't even find him an attorney. Instead, he, Roger, disregarded as father, and penniless. Today he's the only one to not grasp at straws, he only urges his son to tell the truth and to face his responsibilities. It would be great if Rudy weren't totally guilty, for him. Roger who doesn't know how to speak, Roger, the only one in this super rich case who won't make a penny from this. At least even Enrico Mentano was able to pay, considering that he was so generous with others. Seriously, whoever wants to send him some money, contact me and we can take up a collection.
Merry Christmas to all."
Thanks for the translation, Anonymous.
I can't agree with the blog's blaming the rich people for helping create Rudy's criminal nature.
Anonymous. thanks for your translation. Much appreciated.
Merry Christmas to you, too.
As a newby, I'm glad to have been able to help out. Trying to come up with a name for me. Hmmm....Currently, yes, I'm known as Anonimo..."Ano" for short would be awful--I mean, "Ano"="anus" in Italian. I'll work on it. Although, I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time I've been called an
"assh---"
Oh, and FYI, here's another linguistic question someone raised 2 zillion messages ago: "Cmq" is shorthand for "Comunque" which means "however", for those who know Italian.
P.S. Frank's references here to "Matrix "and "Porta a Porta" are Italian TV programs. Also, Enrico Mentana's own show is "Matrix" I believe.
BUON NATALE! e BUON. . .
ANNO NUOV0 = new year
ANO NUOVO = new anus!??
ANNO NUOV0 = new year
ANO NUOVO = new anus!??
Anonymous | 12.23.07 - 11:50 pm
Thanks for the laugh!
i think frank's piece has poignancy,he has a unique voice in this tragedy, he expresses himself well. Thanks for the sensitive translation.
Mele Kalikimaka
good translation of frank's piece. I would just translate "comparsa" not as "actor" being a comparsa in some way the opposite of an actor, but as "walk-on". So "lui non è certo una comparsa nello spettacolo di questo delitto" becomes "he certainly is not a walk-on in the performance of this crime".
sounds better?
thought you all might be interested in a commenter posting in after a recent seattle post intelligencer article by someone who implies knowing AK (for whatever it's worth, maybe zip and unfair):
hmm, quotation didn't copy, anyway gist of it was the person suggesting that the friends who spoke out were told to do so by her parents, other people who knew her wouldn't, "she's done mean things before, not murder, but mean."
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ne...w%27/
article.do
Not sure if you guys saw this link? They say that she gave away evidence that only the killer would know...
Hate to bring this one back up. However, the hash could well have been laced with PCP, or AK could have watched enough CSI shows and afternoon specials to use this as an excuse. Hashish does produce more hallicunaginic ephoria than marijuana alone. Complely different drug really. Could have been laced with coke. Let us not forget that drugs outside of the U.S. can be more pure in cheaper form, it can happen in the U.S. too though. The lack of memory would suggest this. Also, since there is proof positive that Guede was there and was excited, some proof that Raf was there, I tend towards this theory. (Guede was not a good dealer, just a runner, a newbie it seems, so laced he would not know about. His source may have hoped for greater addictions/sales.)
Either AK premeditated or just acted out a fantasy while very mentally "high", more so than usual. Or it was spur of the moment, seems more likely. RG and Raf just happened to be there, she was turned on with the idea of acting it out, RG and Raf thought it sounded fun. All hell actually happened. No one expected it to be real, and they were so high it seemed like a dream, not reality. RG was told by AK he would be blamed, maybe even Raf, which is what his statements suggest. RG was turned on by the virginal beauty of Meredith and could not help his strong sexual desires, which we are all happy everyone is aware of now.
RS is turned on by the idea, but the drugs stop having effect and he sobers once actual harm is inflicted on the poor young lady. AK never does, she is still high on the drugs and events, enough to take control of covering her tracks and thinking to leave small ideas to through off investigations.
I know this has been said time and time again. I just think the simplest answer is this.
If RG and Raf can come clean, it could lessen their jail time.
I guess I am in the AK did it, high or not camp.
jenny | 12.24.07 - 11:49 am | #
--my question is with all the research we have done here, is it true that there was no way that AK could have seen the body reflected in the wardrobe mirror?
That she said she knew her throat was slashed is definetely a give away considering the body was covered.
Note that the source is " a source from the prosecuters" not named. So, I am always skeptical. But, I do believe ths more because it is from MKs friends, and I remeber reading interviews from them saying outright alot of what this is reporting--that they think that she is guilty
Yes, agreed. They did say that they are going to reinterview her friends...
good translation of frank's piece. I would just translate "comparsa" not as "actor" being a comparsa in some way the opposite of an actor, but as "walk-on". So "lui non è certo una comparsa nello spettacolo di questo delitto" becomes "he certainly is not a walk-on in the performance of this crime".
sounds better?
-------------------------------
Sure, that's certainly a more literal translation, but
even better for "comparsa" might be "an extra" in the performance of this crime. Which simply underscores how many characters (main actors, and secondary actors) and roles and relationships there are in this massive production.
Still trying to come up with my distinct non-anon name...
Was watching Fox News (Fair & Balanced) last night. Substituting for Geraldo was Jeanine Pirro. One of the panelist said that at some point the prosecution is going to have to bring all their evidence together and come to some kind of conclusion. I mean this is priceless., However most of the panelist were very tempered and reserved about what they said and refused to speculate.
But Mark Geragos, a defense minded person, said that Amanda’s ‘I was high from smoking pot & hash and everything is a fog‘ may come back and bite her. Because the Judges are going to discount a lot of what she says, versus a somewhat traumatized (hidden) less drugged, more credible witness. With a skillful attorney and a credible witness, a lot of the direct evidence ( e.g. blood spot here and dna there), circumstantial implications (cell phone calls, on/off , pings) may have logical non criminal explanations. If not, the Judges maybe left with more criminal conclusions.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah or Kwanz
chris | 12.24.07 - 12:00 pm | # That she said she knew her throat was slashed is definetely a give away considering the body was covered..............That point may be totally argue-able...We really don't know what Amanda or RS may have Overheard or what the LE may have been discussing,In their present, that day after the discovery of the body.......OK I am off.........."Seasonal Greetings" to ALL
DLW | 12.24.07 - 12:21 pm | #
--interesting
Meman
-- I would think that their is testimony at this point from the crime investigators as to what they said infront of others. maybe not though
Happy Holidays all
Feliz Navidad!
Vaya con dios.
Merry Christmas
Happy Christmas everyone. I will spare a thought (as I am sure we all will) for Meredith's family as they face their first painful Christmas without her.
Merry Christmas to all, especially the friends and family of Eric Volz, whose year long fight for justice has succeeded. Eric was railroaded into a 30 sentence in a Nicaraguan prison, even though he had a documented alibi, no forensic evidence against him, and many credible prominent witnesses who were with him in another town when the crime occurred.
http://www.friendsofericvolz.com/
The following is a quote (last paragraph) from an article I have not previously seen anywhere, about RS "Googling 'bleach' and 'blood' the morning after the murder, from HIS computer. Hmmm??
"Sollecito, who had been dating Knox for a few weeks before the crime, wrote on the Web about his desire for "extreme sex." He posted a picture of himself as a mad doctor, swathed in bandages with a meat cleaver in one hand and a bottle of alcohol in the other. The Italian press has alleged that police found someone had been Googling "bleach" and "blood" from his computer the morning after the murder. But DNA is harder to wash away than people think. And what's on the Web may haunt you forever."
the article link referenced above is
http://www.newsweek.com/id/72027/page/1 I missed it. Is it likely he was asleep through all of the crime, and AK returned over to his flat, used his pc for this search on bleach, and he was/is innocent? Very unlikely to a reasonable person. These 3 suspects have awakened to a very different Christmas from what they are used to. Maybe this will prompt them to CONFESS the TRUTH. No other way out. None.
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/pl...Shows&503&&&
new
Something to view if you had not had time to read all the "clues" in this fine blog. RIP, Meridith Kercher.
Nat Schlesinger killed his brother Jack, he stole all his money and then burned ...
bubbaJ: thanks for the link--we've all been wondering about the browser history on his computer. Newsweek may have a correspondent over there which means they may have someone with a decent/"credible" contact rather than a rep who recycles what they read in other places.
We shall wait together for confirmation of this info. I seriously doubt that he "slept" through the crime, although you predict a defense response---"AManda did it." I'm thinking more like he was the impetus.
Wonder if there is a special Christmas visitation at the Grand Hotel in Perugia today, so three devastated families can tell their brat-ass kids to come clean for Christmas.
Holiday greetings to you and all.
A tearful, sad Christmas in Coulsdon.
Meredith should be there--telling about her time in Italy and hilarious stories about her roommate from hell and how happy she is to be home again.
Season's Greetings and Happy Holidays to all !
Viv - "none of us would be here without the on- or off-line papers, telly or radio)"
-------------------
OR the internet. Long live the internet. It's given us this unique opportunity to discuss a subject that's been upsetting for many of us. And also, it's comforting to be able to 'meet' here and put forward our thoughts and theories.
-----------------
soozie UK | 12.23.07 - 8:24 pm | #
########
Viv, Soozie, Belle, all:
I have updated our resource blog (many more docs to load up...) to include Viv's briliant analysis of DNA evidence found in the "House of Horrors." Of course, there is a link there to this blog to honor origination and copyrights.
At the request of several posters with good sense, this blog is set to private, but is available to any poster here who would like to get information in a reasonably organized way. This includes timeline info, the
translation of RS's prison diary, Kermit's graphic interpretations, Perugia city views and more.
Contributions, corrections, requests can be emailed to me. Requests for blog access can also be sent to me (confidential) at
ca94306@gmail.com
You will receive a response from "Mona Mia."
(My intention is not to promote the MK news and evidence blog here at all, but to make it easily available, and not an "insider" document. Our intention is to respect the Kercher family privacy as best we can for now.)
Oh, what the heck: Merry Christmas from Madrid. The holiday season has just barely started, because everyone knows the REAL gifts are brought by the Three Wise Men of Orient (not by a red-faced imposter who will soon have to transfer his permanent place of residence to a house-boat). They (the Wise Men) don't arrive until Epiphany (January 6), so I'll have to be good until then. I'm on and off over the next couple of days, back working before New Years. Cheers, best of wishes for all participants in our forum and for the Kercher family. And in general, for all persons and families who are suffering in this big, wild, wonderful and terrible world we live in.
From the Dateline Report,
Clint Van Zandt: It had to be a horrific crime scene and a terrible way to die.
Chief investigators in Italy's national crime lab gave Dateline extraordinary access to the Meredith Kercher murder file.
Chillingly, the CSI director told NBC how he believes Meredith died. It’s a detail not reported until now. He demonstrated with his letter opener how the student was stabbed through the throat...
Dennis Murphy: All the way through the neck?
Directoire: Si.
A large blade knife made a through wound, left to right, coming out the other side.
From the same report:
Clint Van Zandt: The blood that's on her hand would suggest that she had gone up to her throat. She had grabbed her throat realizing the knife had been a through and through wound. She's bleeding profusely. She's grabbed her throat, her hands are full of blood and she's reaching back trying to catch herself trying to hold herself up...
Clint thought the DNA on her body and the location of blood spray from the wound supported the investigative theory that Meredith was being sexually attacked from behind, bent over or perhaps being forced to her knees.
from the same report:
Clint Van Zandt: This is no game. This is someone who was horribly violated and went through a terrible murder, because she didn't just die of the stab wound, she died because the blood was in her throat and she drowned in her own blood.
He would have had to climb over that railing.
When he surveyed the house Clint thought it highly unlikely that there'd been an intruder -- as Rudy claimed -- who'd broken a window to gain access to the house. The broken window is 15 feet over a steep slope, not a plausible way in. The authorities believe the so-called break-in was staged, suspicious from first glance.
and finally, from the same report:
Clint Van Zandt: I think what the police are going to wind up doing is get one person to talk, one person, well, this going to be a “come-to-Jesus, let's make a deal” time. And tell us exactly what happened and what everyone's role was? I think we'll see that time come.
Meredith Kercher was buried in England on Dec. 14. She was just 21 years old, two months into the most exciting year of her life.
The Dateline URL:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22332240/
Cheers and best wishes to you in Madrid, Kermit! Enjoy the holiday break--Happy New Year!
Hi, bpcl.
Its interesting that you posted these excerpts--I've also been thinking about the Van Zandt report,and how the additional details make the horror of that night even more terrible, if that's possible.
This was, "I’m angry. I'm forceful. I'm going to kill you."
When thinking of the three current suspects, the only one that can think of that is capable of that kind of rage is AK. And even then, is she really?
I don't believe anything was said in the report about the other two possible perpetrators, but perhaps one of these is a hard core criminal that has killed before?
Rudy's background does suggest criminal activity with drugs, etc...But i don't think he's been linked in the past with violence. However, I suppose for any killer, there is a first time.
"Clint thought the DNA on her body and the location of blood spray from the wound supported the investigative theory that Meredith was being sexually attacked from behind, bent over or perhaps being forced to her knees."
As far as we know, the only DNA on her body is Rudy's.
annarbor,
I posted those excerpts from the Dateline Report because I did not know that the perpetrators had put a knife completely through Meredith's neck. This is new to me. I too do not believe that it was RG, however, in keeping with Pinecone's assertion, I do believe he raped her. We must also take into account Pinecone's belief that the wound on the palm of RG's hand did not come from the supposed killer; I believe that it did not.
That being said, the Police believe that AK held Meredith down during the assualt.
I trust Dateline's reporting on the issue. As Clint did say, it was a sexual assault; just incredible when one thinks about it really.
annarbor,
When OJ allegedly killed both Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown, it was done with an incredible rage; it was overkill. In my mind, he was filled with anger and high on drugs. I do not know that for a fact, however, I do believe that the man was absolutely out of his mind during the act. Today, I do not believe that he can actually remember doing the act not only because it was horrific in nature, but because the man was definitely high on either speed or cocaine.
AK and RS both admitted that they were both high on drugs that day. Your assertion that she was in rage could very well have been true. And most likely, she can only remember bits and pieces of what really happened that night in the cottage. There was strong circumstantial evidence that placed OJ at the scene of the crime and the same is true here in the case of AK. When you read that Dateline Report, you can guess as Clint did, that the murder of Meredith Kercher is all about Amanda Knox.
If Meredith was stabbed through the throat - back to front or front to back - wouldn't that have severed the carotid artery immediately? Or did it miss because of the angle it went in, hence the slow bleeding to death?
It all sounds so frenzied and furious - what the hell really went on in that house? It becomes more macabre with each piece of news.
I wonder if we will ever learn the truth anyway. The suspects are all pathological liars, changing their stories as and when they see fit, so none of them has proved to be credible so far. If they keep silent, surely all that will happen is a case will be be built around what the police 'think' happened (given any evidence they have), and it will be up to a jury to decide. But that still doesn't mean we'll ever learn the whole truth does it?
I suspect there's a whole wealth of information we haven't heard about yet, and I think a lot more gruesome details are going to follow - all of which the 'usual suspects' will continue to feign amnesia about.
-------------------
Soozie,
I have always suspected that the 'real truth' will never come out. And for two reasons, the one you mentioned, that all three suspects are pathological liars and secondly, and most probably, all three were high on drugs at the time and quite simply, can only remember bits and pieces of what happened in the cottage during the night of November 1st.
It is my belief that all three, unless someone talks which I believe will not happen, will be convicted on the forensic evidence and their lack of consistent alibis, none of which can be corroborated.
Soozie,
And the fact that Dateline is reporting that Meredith was stabbed through the neck, from one side to the other, is chilling. It was a very slow and very painful death.
I don't believe anything was said in the report about the other two possible perpetrators, but perhaps one of these is a hard core criminal that has killed before?
annarbor | 12.26.07 - 4:01 pm | # ..........................I agree!
anonymous was me...sorry... damn Norton clean-up
bcpl, I know - when I read she'd been stabbed through the neck, a chill ran right through me. It just becomes more horrifying all the time, and I can't even begin to imagine what her family are going through.
If the 'Perugia 3' refuse to talk, not only is it an openly hostile gesture towards Meredith's family, (on top of everything they've already suffered, plus the total lack of any genuine sorrow shown by any of the suspects for Meredith's awful death) it also means they'll never be able to move on, not even a little bit - they will always wonder what really happened. And yet, in a conflicting point of view, I also strongly believe that whatever the 'worst' they imagine happened to their precious daughter - the truth is probably a whole lot more horrible.
----------------------
Soozie,
The perpetrators let her die a slow painful death, and in my opinion, the reason why her cellphone and that of her roommate Filomena were found later, outside the cottage, was to prevent her from calling out. In the Dateline report, it was said that both RS's and AK's cellphones were turned off at 8:40 pm. And we know that Meredith arrived at the home sometime after 9:00 pm, say 9:15 pm. If it is true that a person or persons were seen leaving the scene at 10:30 pm, then it implies that an attack of some sort took place. If it were a night of love and all that, certainly, it would have taken some time for it to begin, certainly not in the time frame of 9:15 to 10:30 pm.
It was unfortunately for Meredith, somewhat like the Police have been saying, an attack, a sexual assault, given the Dateline Report, and a final kill.
I also strongly believe that whatever the 'worst' they imagine happened to their precious daughter - the truth is probably a whole lot more horrible.
----------------------
soozie UK | 12.26.07 - 8:17 pm | #
--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Honestly...Do you think this makes sense?........It was the worse!
Meman - it's quite common in cases like these where the family feel the 'truth' can't be any worse than the awful things they've imagined. We already know some of the dreadful things that Meredith suffered in her final hours, which you can bet were worse than her family imagined.
My point is that with all this drip-feeding of details, their minds will be working overtime trying to figure out what really happened - and I was trying to say that in THIS case, the truth is probably WORSE than what they had envisaged. Why doesn't that make sense?
-------------
No, meman. This makes no sense. I think that one reason it is so hard to understand is the total cruelty and lack of empathy for MK. As the one judge mentioned, this was a group of people close to her in age. At least one of them IMO was a woman, and possibly two. How could they not be empathetic to this girl, their peer, and to her terror, suffering and pain?
I know there is a certain psychology that can kick in during group violence...but those situations are usually spontaneous. This seems as though it very possibly was premeditated.
And, yeah, meman. I agree that it does seem incomprehensible.
Is it clear whether the fatal cut came from the person behind her, or was it from someone in front of her?
I know that Van Sandt mentioned that someone put the point of a blade under her chin and that resulted in some smaller wounds. I think that there is still the possibility of two blades...Is it possible that a person in front had a blade under her chin and that a person behind her held the murder weapon to the side of her neck?
If so, do you think that when the person in front cut her under her chin, that it was the cause of her scream? And that her scream in turn, caused the person behind her to silence her with the deep wound?
More speculation, I know.
And, yeah, meman. I agree that it does seem incomprehensible.
annarbor | 12.26.07 - 10:45 pm
and, yeah, soozie UK, you're right. The reality of what happened is probably worse than anything her family has imagined.
"When he surveyed the house Clint thought it highly unlikely that there'd been an intruder -- as Rudy claimed -- who'd broken a window to gain access to the house."
But he got this wrong. Rudy never said an intruder entered through a broken window. He said he heard the doorbell, while he was in the toilet, implying the intruders came in that way.
and I was trying to say that in THIS case, the truth is probably WORSE than what they had envisaged. Why doesn't that make sense?
-------------
soozie UK | 12.26.07 - 10:34 pm | #
SOOZ: It's gonna get a lot worse. Way worse. We commented on it back awhile ago--the sexual humiliation that cuts to the heart of a woman's fear. And there may have been up to five people in the room watching or assisting in murder.
____
My opinion: OJ and at least a couple of these suspects were loaded on meth or crack. The rage/state discussed above. HEAVY drug scene.
Plus, I agreewith Rob some sort of occult,out-there fantasy/fantastic ritual, conscious or unconscious. I still think we cannot rule out a *look*--costumes, masks, some sort of sartorial originality --
There is a Roman-Jewish-early Xtian blood communion/common table tone to this crime. I am still thinking through and plan to post about. Martyrdom aspects. A death cult thing with roots in Rome, around maybe 60-180 or so. Rome is not that far away from Perugia. For those who believe in a heaven of a Xtian nature, Meredith is there.
I am sure that there are those in the Vatican that are concerned about this crime. It just has so many features of an early Martyrdom; had to be banal but the time of year (All Saint's; Day of the Dead)and the vampire stuff are REALLY INTERESTING.
And, we feel such affection, a shadow of veneration for her. Amazing.
Conscious or unconscious *style* / motivation, we all do know that somehow this is a unqiue, remarkable crime.
sorry typing worse than usual:
Correction:
had> (NEAR END) should be: HATE to be banal but the time of year (All Saint's; Day of the Dead)and the vampire stuff are REALLY INTERESTING.
Correction:
had> (NEAR END) should be: HATE to be banal but the time of year (All Saint's; Day of the Dead)and the vampire stuff are REALLY INTERESTING.
xin | 12.27.07 - 4:12 am | #
they may have been inspired by this but IMHO it was just because of the opportunity of people being away for the 'holiday'. Unlike AKs other HMs MK didn't have any 'power' or 'authority', she wasn't the one who rented the room to AK, 'Filomena'/'Molly' was. I think from AK & RS side they were 'cold-bloodied'. any 'frenziedness' comes from their passion for violence/power, the time frame of MK just arriving home, and RHG. IMHO I don't know...
5 people being involved would make it different. MK wasn't like AK/RS and she wasn't any kind of 'authority' for them so no respect. I think they simply didn't/don't care.
xin-- a "unique, remarkable crime" -- really? your theories have been interesting but you've lost me with this last Roman martyrdom stuff. The crime is horrible but check out this blog -- lots of horrible crimes. For some reason this is the one you have become obsessed with and sound often excited about. I am sure there are interesting reasons, conscious/unconscious, for your particular obsession -- having to do with your own projections, latencies and sublimations. this one is easily sensationalized because we have pretty, seemingly "normal" people we can relate to going off the rails and committing an atrocity against a lovely young woman -- but let's not pretend it's something deeper. ok, carry on, sorry, had to post, sometimes things get a bit distastefully frothy but gereally respectful here.
Thanks for the link bcpl. I found this comment in the message board very interesting....
[[[Bipolar 1 guy
Message #6
12/21/07 09:56 PM
Madison Paxton:
"It's unfathomable to think that in a couple of months in Italy this person, this character that she was developing for 20 years would suddenly be completely flipped."
Excellent report. Amanda's friends are to be commended for their willingness to participate and, in so doing, add context to what surely looks to most to be an "unfathomable" personality flip. I'm here to add more context.
I'm studying Italian now and visited Florence and Siena last spring. That, pretty much, was my only connection to this story until I heard Madison describe her dear friend Amanda. Now I see that Amanda and I (and other high functioning individuals suffering from bipolar disorder) have quite a lot in common.
If one has a genetic predisposition, leaving home and pursuing higher education collude to make a potent "second hit," or trigger. The friends, family and faculty I had left behind in California likely would have used the same word to describe my transformation into a disheveled slacker: "unfathomable." And, likewise, the friends I sponged off of in Chicago would never have recognized the young, ambitious and promising 23 y/o PhD candidate.
A National Institute of Mental Health study (May 2007) found that about 2%, or 4.6 million Americans, suffer from either bipolar l or bipolar ll. Symptoms typically begin to manifest themselves between the ages of 18-22.
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=24864
In every case, undiagnosed mental illness is tragic. Contributing to this national tragedy, however, is the fact that there exists a huge disconnect in the medical field between family/general practitioners and psychiatric MDs. Like Amanda, I, too, was an athlete, and my mental illness went undetected despite the annual clean bill of health I received from family/general practitioners.
I'd like to see a Dateline investigation into this subject: Why don't family/general practitioners treat the patient holistically, i.e., screen patients for mental illness? Just a handful of questions would suffice. Here's a short list.
Are you, or is someone in your family feeling or acting…
> irritable, agitated or angry?
> distractible?
> highly talkative?
> lethargic?
Are you, or is someone in your family…
> displaying impaired judgment?
> extremely energetic or euphoric?
> unable to concentrate?
> withdrawing socially?
I'll conclude by stating, like mine, Amanda's story underscores (1) the dearth of information on mental illness at hand, (2) the stigma surrounding it and (3) the disconnect within the medical community.]]]]
sorry for the spaced post... tried to condense but obviously , was unsuccessful.
Rhonda,
Boy those questions get a yes from me,cause my family members are like that, and a few yes's apply to me. Is bipolar disorder genetic?
and I agree that mental health is not taken serioulsy in the U.S., it is underdiagnosed, people are prejudice against it, etc... I think that a lot of people drink and do drugs because in actuallity, they are self medicating.
Rhonda,
The US is a machine that needs to be greased every day. From the line from the Buffalo Springfield song, "For What It's Worth," ...step out of line and they will take you away... So if you cannot contribute, then you are part of the problem. And it is for this reason that Mental Health is not taken very seriously in the states.
However, what is actually hidden here, is the enormous costs to society when its members are not productive. The monetary costs incurred from not dealing with the issues of mental health exceed, far and above, the monetary costs of actually dealing with the serious health issues. e.g., the murder of Meredith Kercher, the time people have spent here and elsewhere trying to deal with it, the cost of her productive life, the probable inability of her family members to be as productive before, the costs for the Police to investigate it when they could be doing far better things for their society, and the list goes on and on. Health issues today should be the number one concern of not only all societies, but most especially western societies because they have the monetary capability of dealing with it.
18-22,23 is the age range when schizophrenia may present as well, and again, in those with no previous apparent trouble (not suggesting this is the case here).
Part of the problem is the disconnect in the illness perhaps, separating out so-called mental illness from the overall health of the person. Patient family history is the key, a "holistic" ethic as noted above. There are a lot of poorly trained doctors out there, and as Craig Ventner, of the human genome project famously said, "We [don't] know shit about biology." (Interview in the New Yorker a few years back.)
Agree, Chris, that it may lurk, or be hidden, behind various levels of substance use and/or abuse. Maybe there's a clue in all this about why some people become addicts and some don't.
I think I finally know what happened, stringing all the half-truths together.
Amanda came home. Rudy came over to bring her some drugs. They did them in her room.
Meredith came home and found her money missing. She came to Amanda's room to confront her. Amanda denied it.
Later, Rudy got up and went to the bathroom, and on the way back, he stopped in Meredith's room to mess with her.
Eventually, Amanda heard her protesting, but she didn't do anything to stop it; she was mad at Meredith. But the sounds got worse, and she put her hands over her ears.
Next thing she knew, Rudy was out of there like a bat out of hell.
Amanda didn't know Meredith was dead; she just knew she had been roughed up. She went to Rafe's to escape.
The next morning she came back for a shower, saw the blood, and started to panic.
She invented the story about the break-in to get Rafe to come back with her.
Rafe opened Meredith's door, was shocked by what he saw, pushed Amanda out of the way so she wouldn't see (although she did), and pulled a comforter over Meredith's body to cover it.
He wanted to call police, but she made up some convoluted story about how she would be blamed.
They wiped down her room to remove evidence that she had been with the murderer.
Then, while they were outside trying to decide what to do next, the police arrived.
What Clint Knows
In order to make even that short an assessment for TV sound bites, Clint as a professional have had to ask and had to have been given MORE than what little was reported. First, ILE-CSI would want to know that such a high-profile person as Van Zandt was accurately briefed on (a) current test results, and (b) current revised theories with the supporting evidence. Second, by repeating what he does, he is telegraphing or shorthanding to us the viewers that indeed, in his professional opinion, the CSI evidence he has seen supports (a) multiple participants, (b) one of whom is a woman and likely AK, and (c) the sexual assault theory satisfactorily links all the major pieces of evidence. [There will always be outliers.]
Having been told that the knife stab was through & through the neck, just missing the carotid but of course puncturing the esophagus, Clint's natural follow-up question would have been: "does the angle suggest where the person was standing who made the wound? Front, rear, or sideways?" And I would submit that in this context, ILE-CSI gave him their best reasoning on the evidence. That it was NOT completely conclusive is strongly suggested by the fact that Clint did not report on it. A LEFT to RIGHT wound can be made several ways. If they can narrow it down, by evidence, that Rudy is at Meredith's back, and the wound angle strongly suggests a person in front of M or slightly to her left & the attacker's right, AND there's Amanda's DNA on the knife that fits the wound, then supposing that its Amanda who inflicts the fatal wound will seem inescapable to the jury/judges. {Bringing us back to where many of us, me included, were at the beginning of Halo I.}
Motive and the very very specific details of that whappened between 9:15 and 10:30 pm may never be known. BUT not having motive will not hinder an effective presentation of DNA & other direct evidence in conjunction with circumstantial evidence sufficient to bring convction to several people on some specific charge. And that what Clint has seen, he implies to us as viewers based on his previous reports, in all likelihood would be sufficient to do the same in a US court of law.
This is what Clint is telling us between the words, underneath the sentences. Italian CSI has good stuff even to satisfy an American jury as to who likely did it.
My two cents. My experience with Bipolar I and II (admittedly limited; about a dozen people, some very close friends, however) and drug abuse.
The drug of choice is almost always an "upper" rather than a substance like marijuana. This is because the mania/hypomania feels so good, and the bipolar person loves feeling that way.
Anything to keep that feeling of omnipotence and high energy going. That's why cocaine is so abused by untreated bipolar folks. The depression of a bipolar person is excruciating. The depression feels so awful.
We don't know the whole assortment of substances AK took in Perugia. But we do know she loved her pot.
Again, from my experience, regular pot use would be inconsistent with bipolar.
My armchair diagnosis of Amanda might be either Borderline Personality and/ or Narcisssitic Personality Disorder.
People from both these groups can be very seductive, high energy, delightful, charismatic.
But, a failure to feel real empathy.
When I try to think how I'd feel about one of my college roommmates being murdered, I'd have been desperately upset. One of them I didn't care for very much, but, no matter: I'd have been terribly, terribly upset.
I wouldn't be able to function in the aftermath, nor do I think anyone who had capacity for empathy, could.
Also-
Remember Amanda boasting that she could "get" any man? There are a few statements like that which have me thinking about Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorders.
BeenHere,
Don't you think if that was the case she would have mentioned Rudy by now??? I mean she's in prison on a murder charge. They say there was phone communication between her and Rudy before and after the murder. She had no problem giving up PL...why wouldn't she give up Rudy???? unless he can implicate her in the murder,which I think he can,(my opinion)she could of replaced Rudy for PL saying she was stoned,scared and confused and that it was actually Rudy. But no, she never even mentions him. Being blamed for not rendering help or reporting a murder, I think, would be more desirable than being charged for the actual murder.
I agree, but I think her thinking is confused; she's holding out for not being there at all.
XIN. The last paragraph is for you especially.
Bipolar is right out. I've lived with an older version. Don't see it here. Do indeed SEE sub-acute narcissistic po or sub-acute borderline. Perhaps even TRANSIENT in nature due to changed physical environment coupled with changed emotional environment. Change back enviro issues and personality changes back. Chameleon, if you like. And what would the CORE personality be like? Hard to say from distance if there really was one, but a person realizing THAT might drive knowledge & memory right down into deepest denial so as to keep the Best Personality, or Persona (Jung again), on top and in something like "control".
But no true growth into the fully integrated, individuated person can come from denying. Continual denial by someone who has functional conscience will only ramp up the psychic pain when/if the truth is confronted. Only by confronting the truth and going through the pain of it, can the person become more than just the addition of persona onto persona.
So, yeah, to have hope of becoming a true person over time, to become more like Meredith was, Amanda has to admit to herself by admitting to another person what she really did that night. And part of the pain to true personhood is living through the punishment that such an admission will engender. And that punishment can only have meaning as true restitution to the Kerchers if Amanda accepts it freely. And so confessing and accepting punishment ("pleading"), as acts of free will, will both make her a more whole person and yet threaten that new wholeness by placing her in a hell for 21+ years.
As xin might say, basta about Amanda. Meredith now can not be more than what she was. Yet what Meredith was was nearly a truly whole person, perhaps never more so than when she was refusing to submit. I think its in that refusal that xin, as above, sees overtones/similarities to early Christian martyrs, especially among the documented women martyrs such as Perpetua and Felicity. The refusal to submit, to maintain personal integrity which is seen as a negation of the Other's weak sense of worth, is the trigger to her death. And so, a martyr.
BeenHereAllAlong,
RG's DNA has been found on the pillowcase beneath Meredith's head and also, as has been widely reported, his DNA has been found on vaginal swabs taken from the body of Meredith Kercher. As Pinecone as pointed out, and I now agree, it is entirely possible that RG raped Meredith, that the sexual contact between them was not consensual at all. Additionally, RG had a wound on his hand which he said he received while fighting the 'real killer.' I doubt that his 'imagined' killer was real, and so there must be an explanation for this wound, and Pinecone is correct to ask it.
That being said, there are three theories in play here, Pinecone's theory (RG did it all alone) to Coyotewaits theory( A ritualistic event that led to the killing of Meredith) to RobertM's theory which I believe runs along the lines of Coyotewaits theory. The question remains, was RS in the room that night with AK? And his weak alibi almost points to it, then the theory of a bad drug deal(which I believed in, like you) goes away and we are left with both Coyotewaits and RobertM's theories.
RobertM,
I believe you are correct in your assumptions about what Clint said. I felt all along while reading the Dateline Report, that he was being fed inside information about the case and was just regurgitating it for us. All in all, what was your impression of the report?; I personally felt it compelling since I did not know that the knife wound penetrated her neck. Do you believe that the neck wound was an amateur attempt by the perp, to stop her from screaming? Just curious.
News for Dec 27.07
http://tinyurl.com/384d8p
Il Messagero
tweaked google translation follows:
Meredith, consultants defence:
"There is no blood on the shoes urge"
Raffaele urge
PERUGIA (27 December) - finished in the laboratories of the police scientific investigation on shoes and the knife seized in the house of Raffaele [Sollecito]. On the soles of shoes there are no traces of blood, according to state consultants defence. The prosecution contends that the shoes of the young [man from] Bari are compatible with an impression detected in the blood found near the body of Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on November 1 in Perugia. Even the ... knife [of Sollecito], which was identified the DNA of Amanda Knox and Meredith, according to the defense, there would be traces back to the student named [sounds like in anticipation of the scientific squad's discovery of some of his dna on it]. A trace of blood [of] Meredith was instead found by experts on [the water tap in] the same bathroom where they were ... different traces of blood with the DNA of Amanda and the DNA mixture of Amanda and Mez.
"We are very pleased with what emerged from investigations" said one of the statutory urge, the lawyer Luca Maori, stressing that "it is clear, as for other already established by our consultants, the difference between his footprints found in the room of girl , which unfortunately is strangely disappeared, and shoes Raffaele.
#
So, no RS dna on the knife or on the tap, and no blood on his shoes.
[my theory: MK's dna rotted off RS's shoe in the plastic laundry DAMP carrier and then bleach in the wash/laundry got the rest. I mean, his footprint was found--and documented--in MK's blood....the knife---his lawyers were prepared for his dna, since it is his knife, but none! he used a different knife, imo.
They are having a happy day.
Amanda struck fiercely, to kill, not tease, my guess. Not easy to stab a knife THROUGH someone's throat. plus, that's how the little hyoid [or something] bone in her throat got broken.
TO CLARIFY
headline in english would be something like:
Meredith, consultants defence:
"There is no blood on the [Sollecito's shoes]"
I may sound crazy, or maybe not.. But I still think that Raffaele was not involved during the actual murder... I think he only got involved after the fact... Still making him just as guilty in my opinion for sure... But I think that AK and RG were doing a drug deal.. they attacked Meredith,and Raffe came after the fact... I really don't think this was planned. I think it was a spur of the moment thing... Maybe she confronted AK about the missing money thing... and that started it... It's my guess.. just like everyone is guessing at this point.. so please ... nobody berate me for my guess...
It could be that he wasnt involved - walked in to the scene with just Amanda present,it would explain the 2:00 am loud arguing heard - moment of truth , help AK cover it up or turn her in. But then you have thier cell phones being turned of earlier at the same time. And no alibi for his whereabouts.You dont have memory loss from smoking tons of hash -alcohol and pills yes but not pot.If he wasnt in the house at the time of the murder,he would confess to tampering with evidence and tell the truth.Thats the best deal he could expect. Unless he arrived right after she was stabbed and sat there for an hour while she died. Judging by all three's behavior and stories ,I think whatever happened is to terrible for any of them to admit anything ever. ANy admission is a murder sentence.If just AK and RG , possible other(s) were their when she was stabbed, Just AK and RS were their when she died. If he walks away from this RS will be the OJ of Perugia.
BCPL, why thanks for asking! But as I'm an historian I'd like to know what Clint KNOWS before speculating on the knife wound, except to say that so far we have evidence ONLY of amateurs. That is, there's no evidence for someone apt with a knife. And as a stabbing wound no real skill would be needed.
My questions as posed above are about other evidence that might indicate where & in what ways people were standing, kneeling at the moment. I believe that such information was provided Clint & small bits & pieces of that appear elsewhere in the piece. I didn't see the actual footage. I read the MSNBC transcript. Its the overall tone of the information as written, plus how short the in-lab section was, that tripped my thinking. Clint & producers were cleared to know more but asked to reveal only the wound information as the relative ferocity of it fits the kind of detail Clint seeks so as to make a strong impact on TV. Whatever else they know will likely appear in the charging documents, and so Clint then can openly comment.
My current theoretical stance runs along Jenny's lines, putting me betweenPinecone and Coyotewaits, though I started out over towards CW. However, I can not dismiss the outlier evidence for a possible Mr & Ms CS there in the room at the moment, either one of whom could have wielded the knife. Still, following Pinecone's assiduous application of Occam's Razor, Rudy alone is sufficient for the attack on Meredith and her killing. However, additional evidence (such as a REAL Amanda fingerprint in blood in M's room, which they have NOT found) can necessitate raising that Occam's minimum number up to 2 or more. Evidence changes what needs to be explained, such as the clean-up and staging: Rudy could only have done part of that by 10:30. ILE is working hard through CSI to generate more evidence through scientifc analysis.
RobertM,
Good explanation. As you know RG has admitted that he was there. Strong forensic evidence indicates that AK was there as well. If you believe then as I do that the act fits between Pinecone and Coyotewaits theories, then that can imply either a drug deal gone wrong, or conspiratorial pact between AK and RG to rape Meredith and possibly kill her as well. The key to solving this case is RS. He cannot just walk around thinking he is free because both AK and RG can rat on him. The authorities believe he was in on the act. And there is strong evidence that he was in on it; he was with AK the entire day and his alibi is so damn week and as H0lym0n pointed out above, both their cell phones turned off at the same time, 8:40 pm. When the Police are not talking about you, then I think that is time for RS to start worrying. There are the bleach receipts, the knife found in his flat, unaccountability during the night of the murder etc.. I believe he was involved as well, and I think this is what the Police believe too. There are loose ends however; the white car leaving the scene, the supposed evidence of both Mr. & Mr's CS as you put it. I think it will be sorted out in the end with the forensic evidence and the lack of alibis for both AK and RS. The motive might have been just like the Police are saying; three very drugged out friends wanting to experience new sensations, who just went just a little to far in their fantasy. I was intrigued by a statement AK said awhile back; she said "Meredith's death was absurd." I could not help but think that there was some truth to it; a game that was wrongly played out. Their amateur attempts to fake different crime possibilities points to something like what I have been trying to describe here.
Ha! The OJ of Perugia... Now that made me chuckle! Happy New Year to everyone...
I don't even know what cw theory posters are referring to anymore. He's had a couple beginning with the pre-med theory of all three. Help me out here and let me know which one you are referring to. I have dropped that early theory.
cw's latest theory is basically pinecone's with one exception. Repeating again: MK was sexually attacked and killed by RG only. RG was the only one in MK's room with MK. AK was there in the house at the time and heard MK scream. AK was ok with RG's interest in being with MK but not OK with the murder, but to this day blames herself and remains in psychological shock, repressed memory and denial to maintain some sanity.
AK covered MK and locked the door possibly after RG fled. If, [If?] there was a clean up post murder AK did it by herself. However, I do not think there was any clean up post murder. RS was never there, before or afterwards. RG took and dumped the phones. Whether RG threatened AK or not remains unknown, as everything about AK seems to remain unknown.
I go with the evidence that has been announced, not speculative theories, ILE or otherwise, about what happened. Motive remains totally elusive except for RG being one bloody f---ing vampire sucker. Rob's theory.
Happy New Year 2008 to all. Back to traveling for next few days again.
cw is Coyotewaits-- correct?
happy new year all. we need one.
I just noticed that Amanda Knox and O.J. Simpson have the same birthday - July 9 - but 40 years apart.
I just noticed that Amanda Knox and O.J. Simpson have the same birthday - July 9 - but 40 years apart.
pearl | 12.31.07 - 4:16 pm | #
celestial twins
cw is Coyotewaits-- correct?
happy new year all. we need one.
chris | 12.29.07 - 5:01 pm
Yes Chris, cw is coyotewaits, he's been known to talk to himself before and post in the third person. He sure feels like he needs a new year.
Wishing all the best this world has to offer in good health, success and happiness throughout each day in 2008.
and wishing The Kercher family and friends of Meredith, from this forum's posters, the deepest in sympathy for their loss and sincerest wishes that justice will be served for them this year 2008; by discovering the fullest truth of what happened to their beautiful Meredith, why it happened, and the full punishment of those responsible for Meredith's death to the greatest extent possible by law. That is the hope and greatest wish of each of us this eve of the New Year 2008.
I just noticed that Amanda Knox and O.J. Simpson have the same birthday - July 9 - but 40 years apart.
pearl | 12.31.07 - 4:16 pm
I have never given much attention nor credence to the pseudo science of astrology, but if a fellow poster here is cognizant and trained in astrology I think it would be interesting to see what the charts of OJ and AK have in common with concern to.......and 40 years apart......to you know what.
I just noticed that Amanda Knox and O.J. Simpson have the same birthday - July 9 - but 40 years apart.
pearl | 12.31.07 - 4:16 pm
---------------------------------
What a horrible coincidence. That's the day my mother was murdered in 1979.
Ah. Soozie, this case is so full for you. We're with you and we feel it.
Happy New Year to all. Peace and contentment in 2008, with special thoughts for those in the shadow
of loss to murder.
Do OJ Simpson and Amanda share a Birthday?
Not according to this article; her birthday is 9 September , not 9 July.
http://tinyurl.com/2jgevb
another jerk with no citation. they do appear from time to time.really. this is not a nice person, the deceit is deliberate. we will be more vigilant on these little dust-ups.
ignore it. soozie--try not to think about the terrible coincidence. really. this is not a nice person.
glad someone corrected the record. this is how rumors get started, right, cw?
another jerk with no citation. they do appear from time to time.really. this is not a nice person, the deceit is deliberate. we will be more vigilant on these little dust-ups.
ignore it. soozie--try not to think about the terrible coincidence. really. this is not a nice person.
glad someone corrected the record. this is how rumors get started, right, cw? xin | 01.01.08 - 12:33 am
Yes, xin, I would agree another person (new poster) took a bit of info from an unreliable source (wherever or self created) and applied it to another fact (OJ's birth date).
I would also agree that the poster Anonymous posted another unreliable and purposely salacious source, "the Daily Mail of London dated 03 DEC 2007" in presenting a story line that is neither based on factual evidence or verifiable fact about Amanda Knox's background and family background, including possibly her birth date. It certainly does not help establishing factual evidence one way or another about AK or why she may or may not have been involved in the death/murder of Meredith Kercher. It remains, as so many here do likewise speculate, merely conjecture about personality, behavior and background facts, that offer none of us real cause and effect factors in this crime.
Though I may guess your final reference in your post to 'cw' as a cynical reference to his creative pastiche about made up press reports, it could have been completely innocuous on the poster's (pearl) part in quoting a source as to AK's DOB without so providing a link for that source.
And perhaps you know the poster's (pearl) name and their reputation for not being a 'nice person'. Such declaration by you would be respected here by most all posters. Thus your point is well received and the fact of AK's birthday being the same as OJ Simpson's +40 years is not obviously a fact at all until such later proof by indisputable sources is established. This thread post being appropriately challenged by Anonymous's referenced sources as AK's birth date being September 9, 1987 should stand against Pearl's post that her birth date was July 9, 1987 and OJ Simpson's was July 9, 1947.
'pearl' the ball is in your court to provide an accurate source to the birth date records for both protagonists that you have referenced. Or stand accused and scorned by xin's challenge here within.
Birthdate could be on her Mirrored MySpace page OR is more likely on all the Seattle court records generated by last July 2007's indoor/oudoor party. I think that's posted on Halo II. DOB on the citation & court records, I would assume.
You know, its a long cold dank pseudo-holiday season for Our Intrepid Trio. For the Kerchers, Auld Lang Syne had a truly bitterwseet meaning some few hours ago. As I went dry this past night, so I pledge to drink a glass of champagne in Meredith's honour next New Year's Night (whether its a better one for me or not!).
And to all of you ... a Gude Nicht.
friendly people,
the first thing I notice always is the birthday. you can believe the article, which I'd already seen and noted was inconsistent (reporters goof up too - often), or you can reference the mirror of her myspace, on which 1. a friend wishes her a happy birthday on july 9, 2007 2. her astrology information says "cancer" (which does not fit september 9, but does fit july 9)
you also maybe try to be as "nice" as you imagine yourself to be.
Here original MySpace page had her listed as a Cancer, which would mean that her birthday was in July, not September. I thought the mix-up in the UK paper was in how Europeans do their dates vs. Americans. For instance, in the US, we would write July 9th 2007, as 7-9-2007 and in Europe it would be written as 9-7-2007.
Pearl is of course completely right about Knox listing her sign as Cancer, and about the birthday greeting on Myspace. Here it is, if anyone's interested:
Nicole
Jul 9 2007 3:55 PM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! Thanks for having me hang out with you guys yesterday.. sorry I wasn't too talkitive... kinda hard to get a word in with brett ya know! haha (Well maybe you don't she didn't seem to be that way with ya haha) I can now say that I have had TEA!! Awesome!! Alrighty see ya soon!
Catherine - I'd so trust the insular Daily Mail to get confused by arsy-versy date formats, so think you're probably right about that.
Well today is my birthday and I share it with Isaac Asimov and Mr. King of the Road, Roger Miller! So am I cool or what?
Personally I am not much of a believer in astrology but I do find it interesting. I think most posters here are intelligent and honest people trying to make sense out of a horrific crime. I detest pouncing on others for their thoughts. However, I do understand making sure the facts are as accurate as possible.
It is just so fascinating how "the three" all seem to feel their best chance is not to state which of them actually killed Meredith. I wonder if their lawyers feel this way too. Did the drugs used that night truly destroy the memory of the murder?
Is this the current chat thread for this?
I know Steve wants us to go through the main board to access it--and I'd love to--but I've never had such a hard time finding a message thread from day to day.
If this isn't the current chat thread, I'd like to know what is. I've been following from here since AK was arrested (even if I rarely post.)
If this isn't the current chat thread, I'd like to know what is. I've been following from here since AK was arrested (even if I rarely post.)
Catherine | 01.02.08 - 10:17 pm | #
Same here
I just think news is slow at the moment *shrugs*
Well this one is still waiting for confirmation of the birth date of one Amanda Knox. I will wait as usual as coyote always does. Does anyone have confirmation on the [now] infamous AK's birth date.
Quite frankly I could care less when she was born. Just thought others could be interested in the birth date associations. So much for birth date, astrology bullshit, let's just get on with analyzing this crime with forensics and psychological analysis.
Hi Loz, always great to see you. I am still on the road, and just popping in and out on the wireless route. Thank You for holding the fort and torch for our group family and the Kercher family.
Catch up with you and others later.
Hi everyone, Happy New Year. To the most recent posters, yes this is the current thread ... things are just a little slow because of the holiday season.
Couple of items:
I was just going over Italian news reports of the last few days. Nothing really new, although I got a couple of clarifications on the mixed blood spot (if it wasn't already clear). Actually there are two, one on AK's and the victim's shared sink faucet, and the other on a box of cotton swabs (like qtips, I suppose) on or near the sink.
That's from:
http://it.notizie.yahoo.com/ansa...-
2dba20d_1.html
(do a Google translate, that's what I did)
Secondly, these DNA results come from samples taken not during the December 19 visit (I think that's the date of the most recent house inspection), but from forensic sampling done immediately after the crime. The reason the results are available only now is that they have come from the Rome forensic lab (I don't know if that means that they first went through the - possibly - more limited Perugia lab with no results and then the Big Brothers and Sisters from Rome got involved with their fancy equipment).
That's from:
http://www.corriere.com/viewstor...p?
storyid=69788
If that's the case, I'm sure Rome will be reviewing and redoing just about all testing done to date in Perugia.
BTW, I'm working on a new powerpoint. It was meant to be the mother of all PPT's, but I may have to push it out in unpolished bits and pieces, otherwise it'll never get done. ETA (as in estimated time of arrival, not the Basques), maybe this weekend. Or, as AK would say, maybe not.
Or, as AK would say, maybe not.
Kermit | 01.03.08 - 4:20 am | #
--LOL Kermit.
sorry, that 9:36am Anonymous was me.
Yes, this is the place to comment, it is slow due to Holidays and lack of news.
Kermit, I look forward to your not-Basque ppt! Thank you in advance. I know how much time such things can take to finish.
Thank you also for the Italian links. I expect the Roman lab has been very busy going over the forensic evidence.
Regarding the birthday, I think astrology is so much stuff, and the date is irrelevant. But I thought it would be worthwhile checking to see what information was available online. I posted what I found because I don't think Pearl deserved to be scorned, that's all.
Does anyone know when Meredith's friends are going to be questioned by the police again? The last I read in the papers was a vague comment that they'd be re-interviewed early in the new year. Well, it's early in the new year now and I'm surprised they haven't already flown them out there. Maybe the police are taking an extended Christmas break? Whatever, things should be really heating up now. We've heard so little for so long - that it makes me think something big is brewing.
And it seems like an age since we've heard anything from chatty Knox, are they keeping her quiet - or does she have nothing extra to add?
---------------------
Ooops, the 'Anonymous' comment above 1.22pm is from me! I just got a new laptop and forgot it wouldn't have my details etc.
I wonder if the LE and courts are allowing the Perugia 3(someone above used that catchy title) to realize that they are not going to be sprung from their situation any time soon. I'm sure the holidays proved to be especially difficult spent in prison...I think about that drawing that AK did for RS sometime back. To me the picture represented being on the outside of prison--freedom. I think it was AK's way of telling RS to stick to the plan (admit nothing), and they would soon be out.
Perhaps the investigators are hoping that if they realize that things aren't playing out the way they had hoped, one of them will crack?
Perhaps the investigators are hoping that if they realize that things aren't playing out the way they had hoped, one of them will crack?
annarbor | 01.03.08 - 3:41 pm |
------------------------------------
It's been 8 weeks already - and still the silence ensues. I honestly thought one of them would have cracked by now. I still think one of them will - but as soon as that happens, the other 2 will come up with 'their' new and improved versions, and we'll be back in another sea of lies.
-----------------------
well at the very least, they'll 'get' RHG.
happy new year to everybody here!!!
still nothing new...
ciao
I don't know if already someone have linked this...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/222...ith/2146529622/
is the RG's real diary, by his original handwriting...
ciao
... or here, to download single sheets...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/222...ith/2146529622/
ariciao
never saw that Middie, thanks. Wish I understood Italian and I was an expert hand writing analysis
Hey Chris,
are you the Chris from London who posts over at the AK Fan Club, I mean, Seattle PI blog? Just curious. If so, I like your posts...
corrine_- nope not me!! where is the Ak fan club anyway?
opps sorry, rereading your post-- I get it, seattle PI...
Still not me.
I KNOW this is not the appropriate site, but some here are interested in this stuff. I know it has nothing to do with the case. and my apologies.
and, weirdly the page is called 'serpent - speculative'.
* Go to this link:
http://www.freemasons-
freemasonr...reemasonry.html
it's called "An encyclopedia of freemasonry and its kindred sciences by albert j mackey md 33(degree symbol), This new & revied edition is prepared under the direction of, and with the assistance of, the late william j hughan, 32(degree symbol), and by edward l hawkins md, 30(degree symbol). Published by the Masonic History company, new york & London 1914.
* on the left hand side menu > click Volume 2 - frontispiece > then click serpent - speculative
----------------
full stuff here:
http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewt...=29237&
start=15
Here's an article in the Indy - tangentially related to this case - which might interest people here. Not least for a few choice sarky comments by Orwell at his most sardonic (always a pleasure).
http://
comment.independent.co.uk...icle3310004.ece
Deborah Orr's pretty sardonic herself, and I enjoy reading her stuff when I get the chance. I don't suppose much has changed since Orwell's day. I also wonder if he'd be shocked by (eg) the 27 teenage deaths last year in London because perhaps such murders weren't reported so widely in the 1930s? (That is something I really know nothing about.) I've been wondering if we're reverting to a mindset of even earlier times, when the supposedly underprivileged murdered and assaulted, and the privileged sighed and said Well, there you go... that's what They do. Horrible thought. The indifference of some sections of the media, coupled with possible desensitisation of the public, as weeping mothers have their day on the bulletins then vanish from sight, is getting positively Georgian - and that was an age in which the 'Cleft-Chin' type of murder was rampant.
At least the reviled Victorians got worked up and shocked enough to try to do something about wild youth, poor education, public behaviour etc etc. The downside to that was the resulting hypocrisy, which outlasted old Vicky, and which Orwell refers to. It's all very circular...
A longing to see the privileged (or apparently privileged) come royally a-cropper in a court of law is, I think, still widespread and not just in Britain. Maybe it's carved into human nature. The Sumerians probably had a word for schadenfreude.
(Apols for warbling off top of head, but it's a stupid hour of the night)
This is a new story
http://tinyurl.com/2y7ccy
Exclusive: Meredith's mum speaks of her pain
Exclusive By Gemma Wheatley
The heartbroken mother of murdered student Meredith Kercher has spoken for the first time about the family's first Christmas without her daughter.
Arline Kercher spoke exclusively to the Croydon Guardian from her Old Coulsdon home three weeks after they were finally allowed to lay Meredith's body to rest.
Meredith, 21, was murdered while studying in the Italian town of Perugia in Italy - her body was found semi-naked with her throat cut in a house she was renting on November 2 last year.
Describing how hard Christmas had been, Arline revealed that Meredith would have celebrated her 22nd birthday just three days later, on December 28.
http://
www.wimbledonguardian.co....of_her_pain.php
Happy New Year, all.
Haouli Makahiki Hou,ohana, for the islanders.
Viv thank you so so so much for posting the Orr article. I'm thinking about it and the modern criminal (Eichman, Hannah Arendt, one of us,passing by, corporation man) and the newer *under the skin* Buffalo Bill (ed gein), FREAK that may mean post-modern.
This is why, so far, I will not rule RS out as a wicked instigator/killer...he was the one ho may have best enjoyed *under the skin*. WIth the giallo Perugia we may have an inter-disciplinary (Christian/Jungian/post-modern, which includes global and technology features, various languages, the Anglo-AMerican coming of age in Italy (Marble Faun, Room with a view), the Heart of Darkness, the ("patriated") immigrant...all sorts of cultural overlay, and a drawing to boot.
The draw is intellectual beyond emotional for some. Here's to what Hitchens may write, wonder if he is following this...or Mick Brown at the Telegraph, an essay. He had some sharp insight around the Spector trial-
thanks, viv. and chris, keeping the kercher family in mind, focusing on deep real loss.
I'm going to put both of those in the archive at the blog, meredithkercher.blogspot.com
a reader reference/archive/resource (encouraging content contribution). this blog is set to private on request of family respect.
but admission is open, for access,email me at ca94306@gmail.com, and an email will be returned from monamia with a link. confidential.
There is a fine collection of kermit material, cctv pix, diaries of suspects, amanda's myspace, crime exhibits and site photos (shoe, knife, apt) selected posts, news articles, our timeline (i'll repost it here in case someone has experienced a lightening bolt of clarity).
Glad the Orr article interested you, Xin. I have just read the interview with Mrs Kercher at the Wimbledon Guardian website. Thank you Chris.
Mrs Kercher spoke of her deep shock about the tragedies - highlighted by Deborah Orr - that happened on New Year's Eve in the UK, when five people were murdered in separate incidents. It IS shocking, even to those of us who haven't had their feelings scraped raw by the murder of a child. Casual, stupid crimes. Perpetrators who wouldn't understand the words 'value', 'human' or 'life', in any order; I'm sure that some of them will tediously go on to claim a kind of victimhood for themselves. Maybe it's just one of the many aspects of natural human behaviour, but if that behaviour isn't challenged, then I don't know what 'civilisation' is for.
When Bill Cosby's son was murdered* in LA, Cosby spent lots of time with the mom of a gifted teenage girl in S Central LA (Watts) who died the same night in a messed up drive-by gang shooting---grief can be a profound area of ---is "intimacy" the right word?
*Shot while changing a tire, dark isolated area.
I think so, Xin. Intimacy, empathy, some comfort from shared distress. I've experienced that.
The fathers of Dinah McNicol and Vicky Hamilton met privately in November, following the arrest of Peter Tobin for the murder of their daughters:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/engla...and/
7111852.stm
Mr McNicol is a remarkable man:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/engla...and/
7101158.stm
If you can open the link (on the right of the article) to the news video clips, select the one in the pop-up player titled "Ian McNicol's comments in full".
New theory... MK's murder linked to the "mostro di Firenze" serial homicides... Esotheric explanations, "Lilith's sons", Masonry and some other esoteric things...
http://www.italoeuropeo.it/index...=307&
Itemid=106
ciao
Thanks, Middie. I also found something similar back in December:
http://www.lagiustainformazione2...nome-di-lilith/
Hi everyone. With Xmas, New Years, and Epiphany (the latter slows down Latin countries a little), there hasn't been much happening ... so I've prepared this Powerpoint. It demonstrates that you should decide the title of a document after finishing it: I originally thought that the play on the French Lieutenant's Woman idea would give way to multiple scenarios, "let's just combine RS, AK and the next-door neighbour and see what happens".... Well this initial file is VERY limited. In addition to scenarios, I wanted 5 sections: Two week countdown to disaster (Yellow coded); Final Positioning (Orange coded); the murder scenarios (Red coded); Clean-up and Discovery (Purple); and Investigation and Prison (Blue). That ambitious plan was drastically cut short by the reality of tinkering with PowerPoint and trying to do things it's not meant to do.
In this file I only get as far as the first two sections (Yellow and Orange). We'll see if I can put the time necessary into this to do something worthwhile on the other sections. (Right now, the next, Red, murder scenarios is being cut back to basically being an update on the house plan, and the state of things in the house on the night of the murder and immediately thereafter).
Navigation is delicate!! My advice is to advance NOT using the mouse (clicking), but rather using an arrow key or page-down key. The mouse is only safe on the hyperlink points (explained in file). I suggest just advance slowly and don't get anxious - one hit on the arrow or pagedown, and wait a second until something happens. There are a few slides with "undocumented functionality" of a click/button hit where nothing happens. No pasa nada. Wait for 2 or 3 seconds, then continue.
The first time through, just advance, no hyperlink. (All hyperlinks take you to the last slides of the presentation, so you'll get there anyway just advancing slide by slide).
Download it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7cyrtluw1e5
Ahh, I forgot to tell you, it's 4.5 Mb.s . Sorry.
Kermit, is there any other software with which we can open your file? I don't have Power Point, downloaded your file without thinking, and now can't open it. I'd really like to see it! Thanks.
I don't have Power Point ...
Sparrow | 01.08.08 - 4:43 pm |
Hi Sparrow, I googled for "powerpoint viewer", and got a number of possibilities. This one looks like it's an official, free viewer of .ppt files, from Microsoft.
http://www.download.com/PowerPoi...4-
10742144.html
It should work.
Wow Kermit, nice work.
Thank you for the link, as well. I didn't mean to send you on a google search. I thought you might know off the top of your head. I have a Mac however, but after seeing that I couldn't use the viewer you recommended, I remembered that I had a very, very old PPT version (part of an Office bundle) that I'd never used. I seems to work. Maybe some others can benefit from the link you provided, though.
I have only been able to glance at your presentation, but I really, really appreciate it. I think some of us have craved more presence of time and place, to help us try to visualize and understand what could have happened. We've gotten some of this from the photos on Xin's blogger site, from the descriptions on Frank's Perugia Shock site, and comments from others in Italy. Your slideshow is a great addition, organizing everything in a visual way. Thank you!
Kermit,
Great presentation. I downloaded a free version of Microsoft Office 2007. http://office.microsoft.com/en-
u...2294401033.aspx. 60 day free trial. Well worth the work. The pictures are great, and I have much better idea of the possible route(s) taken , and walking distances involved. Also a lot of reference sites are available. Navigation on the site is tricky, I just used the up/down keys.
The wheels of justice are slow at times. Waiting for more info to help fill in the blanks.
Sparrow, DLW, glad you found it interesting. Potentially another viewing possibility are the Google apps, for which you need a Google email.
http://
googlesystem.blogspot.com...sentations.html
Sparrow: you, RS and I have a liking for Mac in common. I would have loved to have done the presentation with Keynote.
Late night here. Goodnite.
You made a really great job, Kermit... Thanks!
ciao
I'm amazed that this thread is still going.
Thanks Kermit, that is an excellent power point presentation.
Nothing earth shaking, but the first new information I've seen in a while:
Judge allows to examine suspects' computers in case of slain student
A British student was slain in the central Italian city of Perugia in November. A judge has allowed to examine the computers of an American and an Italian suspect in the slaying. The judge has also decided that experts could examine the computer of the victim, Meredith Kercher. A hearing to appoint the experts will be held on Jan. 21.
http://tinyurl.com/32d953
Thanks for the power point presentation, Kermit!
From news article:
Investigative Judge Claudia Matteini accepts request by Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini for forensic analyses to be carried out on RS's, AK's and Meredith's computers.
Up until now, only limited analysis ("was there activity on the evening of Nov.1?") carried out on RS's computer.
At the same time (from what I understand), the Judge has decided that Meredith's friends will not be asked to return for further questioning (this measure not required / not foreseen by legal normative).
http://www.fondazioneitaliani.it...=2873&
Itemid=53
Sorry AnnA, I didn't refresh before posting ... you already had the news item. Cheers.
Oh, no problem, Kermit! Also,the article I posted didn't include the info about Meredith's friends not being required to return...that's interesting since it had seemed before the holidays as though it was key for the investigators. Cheers to you, too.
Hi all. Thanks for new info, new insight, and kerm, will look at your new photo essay later today..off to the art museum first. I'm in Portland and am tempted to cruise up to Seattle to visit brilliant attorney friend (for buzz) and check out the spots, maybe with my cammie.
It's about time they properly invesigate the computer use. The article says there will be a hearing Jan 21 to assign the tasks of examining the hard drives of RS, AK and MK, and one specific comment notes the (conflicting) defense claims that RS was on his computer the night of the murder.
We haven't heard much about AK and computers, but her machine will be analyzed as well.
Have the Wise Men arrived in Perugia yet? (epiphany).
Contrary to opinions expressed here, theories on the murders, I think RS was totally involved, and is up to his eyeballs in more than bleach.
Amanda, the key connector, RS the inspiration/instigator. It is about the blood. GUYS WHO ARE IN TO BLOOD.
Meanwhile, not a peep out of Capanne.
PS If anybody wants/needs gmail (it's the best; they are the only ones to not turn search records over to George W and his thugs). I have a nice pile of invitations to extend, so you can sign up for account. Confidential, email me ca94306@gmail.com with request. You can aim all other email addys to gmail, it's got great sort features, etc.
Annarbor said: before the holidays as though it was key for the investigators.
annarbor | 01.09.08 - 1:55 pm |
Yes, AnnA, I too thought it strange ... I thought maybe there could be relationship problems within the investigation ... instead, it's probably just a delineation of competencies amongst civil servants. In this instance, the Investigative Judge Claudia Matteini makes a negative procedural decision on the basis of the request from the State Prosecutor Mignini for further information from the 6 English girls (as witnesses), based on some terms of reference or norms/procedures document. What I would like to know is who has the lead competency (?) / responsibility for the investigation? Her title would make me think it's her (also, the initial report for arresting AK, RS, and PL was hers), although maybe she just a red light / green light approver for specific investigative lines.
This is The Times' (9th January) report covering the recent decision on the British witnesses, the forthcoming computer inspection, a request by Guede's lawyers (is this new?) and a comment from that talkative prison chaplain:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3160827.ece
XIN how do I aim my aol emails to gmail. I have gmail, and I can not figure that out
I have been blogging at the top thread of steves, re Meredith Emerson. It is an historic and terrible case which is unfolding. I suggest to you all that you join us
I'm surprised they waited this long to look at the computers of the others, and look more closely at RS' computer. I wonder if it is some kind of protocol in Italian investigations? It seems they might be able to find out more about the relationships and communications of the suspects and the victim, and this could possibly lead them somewhere. Why didn't they do this earlier?
Sparrow said: I'm surprised they waited this long to look at the computers
Sparrow | 01.09.08 - 9:38 pm |
It's all about procedures/protocol. It's clear that on one hand, there was no problem to tape AK's and RS's mobile phone conversations even before they were arrested, but on the other hand, there is red tape concerning the the computers. In one of the newspaper reports from yesterday, Judge Matteini underlined that whoever gets appointed to do the 3 computer review on Jan.21 must only review files which are potentially related to the murder (that sort of limitation is rather hard to follow before you even look at the contents of the file).
All EU Schengen countries (for the moment, most of "western Europe" - "old Europe" as your friend Bush would say) have very strict computer data protection laws. Maybe that makes it simpler to ask to bug a phone call than to sit back and read all of someone's email of the last 6 months.
Kermit,
"...as your friend Bush would say)..."
That was a typo, right?
Thanks for the other info. I figured it must have been something like that, but with all the phone bugging going on in Italy it seemed strange. But just from studying this case, the Italians seem much more careful than the US on certain things, and much less on others. I guess we all put different measures of the same ingredients in our recipes.
"must only review files which are potentially related to the murder (that sort of limitation is rather hard to follow before you even look at the contents of the file)."
I guess "potentially" is the key word there, giving them enough freedom to look where they want. I hope they find something soon.
Sparrow, ref. "your friend", oops. Well, you know, "that guy". No insult meant.
Xin, you said "RS was totally involved, and is up to his eyeballs in more than bleach". Yeah, that has always been my gut feeling, and continues to be. However, as I put together the new Powerpoint, and I tried to shoehorn in the second Polish student sighting of AK (not just sighting, but interchange of words), on the face of it (and pre-assault, pre-murder) AK was heading out on her own, at that hour of the day.
That's why I put that as the number one theory/scenario (RHG + AK, with RS in a "support" role after the assault and murder) at the end of the presentation (with LOTS of room for RS to join up at any given point in the evening or next morning).
And that's why I relegated (sp?) the AK/RS/RHG scenario (for direct implication of all three in assault + murder) to second place (still being totally possible and in gut-feeling).
Almost more curious is the (my) third scenario (RHG does most of the bad stuff - assault, murder - on his own, with AK showing up more or less at the time). I have little gut-feeling for this scenario, nor a detailed explanation of how it plays out. Nevertheless, it became apparent/possible as I put the presentation together: the victim goes home on the lower, around-the-hill route as she accompanies friend Sophie. The shortest and fastest way home from there is to take the murky, route through Via Melo and the alley which connects to the carpark (check it out in the Powerpoint).
I never put much value in that route as a normal means of access (I thought that part of the carpark was closed off, or if there was a gate, it would be locked at night, or only would give access to residents in the nearby buildings ...). But after December reports of metal stair noise, I looked into it and it's clear that that is a fully fledged (if somewhat murky at night) access point.
Momentary change of subject before returning to this third scenario: I get nervous when lawyers tell judges what to do. Vaya, vaya, RS's lawyers proclaim that the police should look in the bushes around the house to find "the real murder weapon" and in the next house inspection one of RS's lawyers finds the famous "butter" knife. At about the same time, RHG's lawyer tells the police/ judge/ prosecuter (whoever's leading the investigation) to review the carpark videos and they'll see that it's not Rudy making noise on the stairs. Sorry, but my accusative reflex makes me think that the translation of that demand is that Rudy escaped via that route (and Mr. Lawyer already knows that the cameras in question weren't working, or were set at bad angles, or the tapes were erased by some ningcomepoop operator, or whatever).
If that is the case (that Rudy escaped by this route), (and now, returning to my third scenario), Rudy knew this area well, maybe liked to hide out in the corners of the carpark or alley (maybe he even did some drug dealing around there). And, perhaps he was there when (if) the victim decided to use that shortcut home. He could have followed her home for his "date". That scenario gets RHG and the victim into her house, could even set the stage for assault and murder, but doesn't explain AK's movements or behaviour at all.
(O/T: chris: hi. AOL is a whole different thing, technology that does not play well with others. you almost need to call them, or your favorite hacker, to find out how to forward. maybe it's different now, i quit them years ago. i just ran the old and new email programs tangentially and answered email with the new gmail addy.)
Now: to Kermie's PPt...
RS's dna on Meredith's bra.
http://tinyurl.com/2rgnq5
WOW!
Awesome job Kerm, I go with #2...rg, rs and ak all in place (virtually) when mk arrives, although each may have arrived separately. they snack, then somehow rg and mk end up in bedroom--money comes up.
Thanks so much. Up at blog, asap. I'll need to watch it a few times to absorb all the content. Masterful.
I advanced it by hitting *return* on my Mac. Worked beautifully as expected.
Damian
If traces Raffale's dna is found on Meredith's bra, this obviously has huge implications. Perugia blogspot is also hinting around at that.
I'm sure Rafflaele will have a logical explaination if this proves true.
Not so sure that there could possibly be a way to exlplain this away!
I'm anxious to hear his defense team's and his father's response
I'm sure Rafflaele will have a logical explaination if this proves true.
DLW | 01.10.08 - 3:10 pm |
consensual sex-play? just messing around?
(ugggh)
Damian!! Now that is news!! Just a snippet of the article:
"The bra in fact was missing a piece of cloth, close to the snap closure, which was not found during surveys conducted shortly after the murder. Once found, the fragment was analyzed and the genetic code of Raffaele Sollecito was found. The piece of cloth was not torn, but cut with a knife and the DNA was found right next to the cut. This finding is just the element that investigators were looking for to confirm their assumptions, namely the presence of all three young people in prison on the scene of the crime."
Well, that certainly starts to round out the possible scenarios for what happened in the house. RS can't really say he took off her bra with his knife as part of the cleanup.
Xin, this impacts on the presentation. Don't know if I'll modify what has been done, what's there is all still valid. I just need to set aside some time to work on the next section, what happened in the house between around 9 p.m. on Nov.1 and when the perpetrators ran out in their respective directions.
where's the article (news, not clothing)? i'll check out the usual suspects...
Damian's article is on Il Messagerro, which is copyrighted. It doesn't allow it to be copied for a google translation...I imagine that the English and US news will pick it up soon, though.
I'm anxious to hear his defense team's and his father's response
annarbor | 01.10.08 - 3:16 pm | #
AnnA, they are quiet but I can feel their hands on the picture. It had to have been they that pushed the limitation that the computer forensics guys could only (pursue/find/review) those sites relevant to the murder and with a time limitation of a couple days before. (IS THIS THE CORRECT DRIFT, bi-lings?) Of course, this instruction leaves open the idea of relevant activity. I would say that a manga/anime (what's the diff? level of evil?) illustration of a girl with a bloody knife piercing one side of her throat and emerging bloody from the other side would be of interest, as would a girl bent over a chairback. screaming.
with him...rafe...the blood's the thing. the play's the thing for big a.
bra cut off with a knife. my god. i'm developing my on-site that-nite house of horrors theory. i have not posed any, but events may parallel my thinking.
rafe is bad-ass, badder with the get-down-with-your-bad-side amanda.
rob: where are you.
They're all copyrighted.
Thanks.
bra cut off with a knife. my god. i'm developing my on-site that-nite house of horrors theory--xin
My God, is right. New informaion only worsens the picture of what happened to her.
from
http://www.ilmessaggero.it/home_...ge.php?
sez=HOME
via
http://www.google.com/translate_...?
langpair=it|en
shoudla used tinyurl sorry
Original text: Automatically translated text:
Trovato Dna di Sollecito sul reggiseno di Meredith Due ulteriori elementi anche contro Rudy Meredith Kercher ROMA (10 gennaio) - La polizia scientifica ha trovato sul reggiseno di Meredith Kercher, la studentessa inglese uccisa il 1 novembre a Perugia, il Dna di Raffaele Sollecito. La presenza del Dna del giovane, in carcere insieme alla fidanzata Amanda Knox e a Rudy Hermann Guede con l'accusa di omicidio e violenza sessuale, depone di fatto per una sua presenza sulla scena dell'omicidio. Il gancetto e il taglio. Il Dna è stato isolato su un pezzetto del reggiseno, forse un gancio, recuperato dalla squadra Ert (esperti rilevamento tracce) della scientifica diretti da Alberto Intini nel secondo sopralluogo effettuato nella casa di via della Pergola, un mese dopo l'omicidio. Dal reggiseno infatti - dove la scientifica aveva individuato il dna di Rudy Hermann Guede - manca un pezzetto di stoffa, vicino ai gancetti della chiusura, che non era stato trovato durante i rilievi effettuati subito dopo l'omicidio. Una volta recuperato, il frammento è stato analizzato ed è emerso il codice genetico di Raffaele Sollecito. Il pezzo di stoffa non è stato strappato, ma tagliato con un coltello e il Dna è stato trovato proprio vicino al taglio. Quello appena scoperto è l'elemento che gli inquirenti stavano cercando per confermare la loro ipotesi e cioè la presenza di tutti e tre i giovani in carcere sulla scena del delitto. Ulteriori elementi contro Rudy. La polizia scientifica ha anche trovato il Dna di Rudy Hermann Guede su una macchia di sangue presente sulla borsa di Meredith, che era sul letto, e il cromosoma Y su un'altra traccia sul polsino insanguinato della manica sinistra della tuta della ragazza inglese. Due ulteriori elementi che si aggiungono a quelli contro Rudy: il cromosoma Y individuato sul tampone vaginale effettuato su Meredith che coincide con quello estratto da un frammento di carta igienica nel water dell'abitazione, l'impronta insanguinata di una mano sul cuscino che era sotto il cadavere della studentessa e il Dna trovato sul reggiseno. Le prove contro Amanda. Contro Amanda pesano invece le macchie di sangue trovate nel bagno: due in in particolare, che presentano entrambe tracce di Dna misto della ragazza americana e di quella inglese. Una trovata all'interno del lavandino, vicino allo scarico, e l'altra su una scatola di cotton fioc appoggiata sul bordo dello stesso lavabo. La presenza del Dna misto delle ragazze confermerebbe almeno la sua presenza sulla scena del delitto e, soprattutto, non può far escludere che l'americana avesse le mani sporche del sangue della vittima e se le sia andate a lavare nel lavandino. Le prove contro Raffaele. >Fino a oggi gli elementi a disposizione degli inquirenti erano il coltello da cucina trovato a casa sua sul quale è stato isolato sia il Dna di Amanda (sul manico) sia di Meredith (lungo la lama) e, soprattutto, le numerose versioni raccontate agli inquirenti e smentite dalle indagini. Quella sera, ha sempre detto Sollecito, «ho lavorato al computer»: ma l'analisi della polizia postale sul pc ha stabilito che non c'è stata «interazione umana». Così come non c'è stata la telefonata con il padre e così come non è mai stato spiegato perchè alle 5 del mattino del 2 novembre il giovane ha riacceso il telefono, spento dalle 8.30 della sera prima, quando ha sempre detto di essersi svegliato alle 10.30-11. Meredith era stata trovata cadavere nella sua abitazione di Perugia, dove seguiva i corsi Erasmus, la mattina del 2 novembre scorso. stampa: Trovato Dna di Sollecito sul reggiseno di MeredithDue ulteriori elementi anche contro Rudy
DNA Found to urge the bra of Meredith
Two other elements also against Rudy
Meredith Kercher
ROME (January 10) - The scientific police found on the bra Meredith Kercher, the English student killed on November 1 in Perugia, the DNA Raffaele urge. The presence of the DNA of the couple, in prison along with girlfriend Amanda Knox and Rudy Hermann Guede on charges of murder and sexual violence, de facto evidence for its presence on the scene dell'omicidio.
The hook and cutting. The DNA was isolated on a piece of bra, perhaps a hook, recovered by the team Ert (experts trace detection) of scientific directed by Alberto Intini in the second survey conducted in the house on Via della Pergola, a month after the murder. From bra fact - where science had identified the DNA of Rudy Hermann Guede - it's missing a piece of cloth, gancetti close to the closure, which was not found during surveys conducted shortly after the murder. Once recovered, the fragment was analyzed and it was found the genetic code of Raffaele urge. The piece of cloth was not torn, but cut with a knife and the DNA was found right next to the cut. That just discovered is the element that investigators were trying to confirm their assumptions, namely the presence of all three young people in prison on the scene of the crime.
I was able to translate from La Stampa:
10/1/2008 (20:12) - THE CASE
Turn in yellow Perugia, DNA
To urge the bra of Meredith
Raffaele urge and Amanda Knox: accused of murder
The couple was on the scene Bari
The crime of English girl.
New evidence against Rudy
ROME
The DNA Raffaele urge was found by police on scientific bra Kercher of Meredith, the student killed in the home of English way of Pergola in Perugia last November first. The presence of DNA on the young Bari bra, in prison on charges of murder and sexual violence along with Amanda Knox and Rudy Hermann Guede, the place actually on the scene dell'omicidio.
The DNA was isolated on a piece of bra, perhaps a hook, that the team Ert (experts trace detection) police scientific directed by Alberto Intini has recovered in the second survey conducted in the house on Via della Pergola, a month after the murder . From bra fact - where science had identified the DNA of Rudy Hermann Guede - it's missing a piece of cloth, gancetti close to closing, which had not been found and therefore repertato during the reliefs made immediately after the murder. Once recovered, the fragment was analyzed and it was found the genetic code of Raffaele urge. The experts also pointed out that the piece of cloth was not torn, but cut with a knife. And the DNA was found right next to the cut.
What discovered by the police is the science that the investigators were trying to confirm their assumptions definitely investigation namely the presence of all three young people in prison on the scene of the crime. Rudy would be stuck for several elements: the Y chromosome found on the vaginal swab done on Meredith coinciding with excerpt from a piece of paper in the toilet water in your home, the bloody imprint of a hand on the pillow that was under the corpse of student and the DNA found on the bra. Against Amanda weigh instead of blood stains found in the bathroom: two in particular that have both DNA traces of the girl mixed American and the English. One found in the sink, close to the exhaust, and the other on a box of cotton swab supported on the edge of the basin.
The presence of the DNA mixture of girls, is investigating the possibility, if not confirm the direct participation of Amanda to murder at least his presence on the scene of the crime and, above all, can not be ruled out that the American had his hands dirty, blood of the victim and if both go to wash in the sink. But Raffaele, until now the items available to the investigators were the kitchen knife found at his home which has been isolated the DNA of Amanda (on the neck) and Meredith (along the blade) and, above all, the many versions told to investigators and denials from investigations. That evening, I urge has always said, "I worked on computers", but the analysis of the police post in PC ruled that there was no "human interaction. Just as there was the phone call with his father and as has never been explained why at 5 am on 2 November, the couple has rekindled the phone, off 8.30 from the night before, when he always said that it was up to 10.30-11.
And it worsens the position of Rudy Guede. The DNA on a blood stain on the bag Meredith and the Y chromosome to another track blood on the sleeve of a suit jacket are two new elements that the police scientific matched against Ivorian. The elements have emerged over the same tests that led to isolate the trace of DNA Raffaele urge on a piece of bra to Mez. In particular, the DNA of Rudy has been isolated on a drop of blood on the handbag of the girl, found on the bed in her room, while the Y chromosome has been identified on the sleeve cuffs bloodied left of the suit of Meredith.
Google translation
Sorry, xin--I didn't refresh before posting this..Yours was already up.
whoa--here's corriere:
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/
removes all doubt, they write:
"
In the investigation of the crime Perugia
DNA to urge the bra of Meredith
You find traces of genetic code, Amanda boyfriend of the scene
Raffaele urge and Amanda Knox (Ap)
PERUGIA - Raffaele urge DNA was found by police on scientific bra Kercher of Meredith, the student killed in the home of English way of Pergola in Perugia last November 1.
ON THE SCENE OF CRIMES - The presence of DNA on the young Bari bra, in prison on charges of murder and sexual violence together, Amanda Knox el'ivoriano Rudy Hermann Guede, removes all doubt, in fact, the presence of the couple Bari on the scene dell'omicidio. The biological factors are being isolated by men of the Police Scientific Rome on a fragment of the bra Meredityh Kercher, at the metal hooks. The garment was cut with a knife, according to the reconstruction made by investigators.
NO COMMENT FROM DEFENCE - Lawyers urge Raffaele have preferred not to comment about the discovery of DNA Raffaele urge bra on the girl brutally killed two months ago. Lawyers Marco Brusco and Luke Maori were limited to explain that they were awaiting know where exactly were identified traces found by Scientific.
THE INQUIRENTI - For investigators it is a very important element, which places Raffaele urge the scene: up to now there was only an impression given by a sole blood, which is considered compatible with that of a tennis shoe that belonged to the student.
how great is this?
(google trans,tweaked
THE FATHER - "The most plausible explanation is that quell'indumento has been worn by Amanda Raffaele and then touched him when he wore her." So Francis [sollecito], the father of the student [who is] Pugliese, said [about] the latest findings of the police.
(I think he suggests, denfying he's son's anal-ness, that the slob whore amanda once wore mk's bra, which now, unwashed, mk wore that night of horrors.) TIme again for daddykins to STFU.
sounds like cops found a hook, cut, popped off the bra in the HOH when they had the second search, observed by RS smiling lawyers.
the evidence of the cut is on the fabric that was the bra. damn, they left the bra lying on the floor, but washed the pants. good god this tale could go in many obnoxious directions.
disorganized killers
again, we see.
disorganized killers--
again, we see.
xin | 01.10.08 - 4:12 pm | #
Monsters, all of them.
I just put together 3 photos of the crime scene, with a closeup of the severed bra strap. I don't know if that is the specific point that ILE were examining, but - not being an expert on bras - it does look like a point that is normally joined.
(excuse the use of powerpoint, it's just easier for me to slap together photos that way - BTW, I have a minor collection of screen shots from Italian TV that I was going to use for the next presentation of the inside of the house, if I ever get around to it ... that's how I had these on hand, without yet analysing specific crimescene things like the bra)
Download the snaps at:
http://www.mediafire.com/?2mvcvlpnky1
What strikes me about the photo of the bra is that the straps are saturated in blood...Was the bra cut AFTER she was stabbed in the throat?
we don't know about all the wounds on MK, right? cuts/abrasions/scratches on her back,front? wrists?
has anybody referred directly to the autopsy report?
anybody remember? i'll check back through stuff later on as well.
it's missing a piece of cloth, gancetti close to closing--La Stampa
Thank you for the photos, Kermit. One thought that I had when i reread the La Stampa article, is that the closing of the bra is usually considered the clasp in the back, not on the strap. It may be that the back was cut, and the strap torn/cut. Its a small distinction, not sure whether or not its significant...I suppose it could suggest that whoever cut the fastner was standing behind her.
AnnA:I suppose it could suggest that whoever cut the fastner was standing behind her.
annarbor | 01.10.08 - 4:34 pm |
AnnA, I THINK some reports (ref?) say she was forced to bend over, with her head down, near the wardrobe door (maybe the ILE found blood inside the wardrobe)
Yes, these are very mediocre persons. Mediocre friends, mediocre suspects. As much as RS likes to make long lists of his friends, I don't think many will want to be associated with him from here on.
looks like strap's cut. hook could have been to adjust strap.
at any rate, those straps are bloody, AnnA and the bra is all pulled and messed up.
i'm wondering: fight over getting off bra. possibly two attackers over this---back cut, strap cut/yanked, misshapen, beatup.
bloody, bloody.
Kermit and xin, I think both your points are correct. She was, according to blood evidence, on her knees or bent over when she was killed. And it does seem as though it was frantic and brutal.
It just gets more horriying, especially when you contrast the depravity and cruelty of these monsters, with the unsuspecting and innocent MK, leaving her friends after a lazy evening of a meal and movie heading home to catch up on her sleep.
wow. I have to run be back later.
One more item then Im off--Showing up in the English news:
http://tinyurl.com/2uew2j
ok--so sky news says, clearly:
this puts RS at the scene.
we don't know WHEN bra was cut & torn off...bloody messy bra may suggest late in the torture, not necess over chair...this is big clue, big news.
DNA BREAKTHROUGH
RS DNA found on hook on MKs bra.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1300224,00.html
question now is, during part of the coverup, or part of the attack.
sorry already posted on.
the Times article states that the bra strap had been cut with a knife, and that the bra strap material was still attached to the hook.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3169084.ece
Kermit, it sounds like you've done a terrific job. When I find my mac disc, and get my open-source word-excel-ppt stuff running, I shall look.
On the subject of this evening's news, which I've only just seen... I expect that anyone who chooses to pick up a knife in order to cut a bra from a woman, whether she is alive or dead or dying, wouldn't necessarily limit themselves - cutting the shoulder strap, severing the fastener. What a thrill.
I've looked at one of mine this evening, and such an ordinary, functional item it is to me. It's brought it home just how shocked I am about this murder. Sometimes it's the details that get you. Tiny ones. Like looking at a piece of your own clothing and thinking , yes, if someone cut this from me, just here, then that would leave a tiny scrap of material to which is sewn a hook, or two parallel hooks, depending on the style... and if that hook and its severed piece of cloth were detached from the eyes on the other side of the bra and fell to the floor, it would be easy to overlook such a small piece of evidence.
Wicked. Wicked and foul, whatever the time or circumstances. I don't even find myself caring who did it - it's just the fact that it was done at all.
More than just interesting new media reports! Quite frankly, with qualified opinion on the DNA analysis techniques used, this is factual support to the original theory presented by prosecutor Mignini and judge Matteini, that all three were involved, present and responsible for the brutal torture/murder of MK (initially it was PL, but later proven to be RG).
We can be thankful that Rome's national forensic skills and resources are being used in this case. It still bothers me that Perugia police have needed a second evidence search to gather this additional evidence. How could they have missed so much originally except through incompetence in forensic crime scene evidence gathering techniques.
This is exactly why O.J. Simpson's defense team was able to overcome the prosecutions case back in 1994 when police were just learning such techniques with regards to possible DNA evidence gathering. This is 13 years later! And, I find quite ironic that RS's lawyers and father were insisting on it obviously hoping for exculpatory evidence to uncovered.
But where ILE previously had only weak and/or circumstantial evidence to RS involvement, they have 'life's core' gift of his involvement now. Hoping they will find even more.
As for "Father Sollecito" trying to become F. Lee Bailey, Barry Scheck, Robert Shapiro, Robert Kardashian, Alan Dershowitz, and Johnnie Cochran (OJ's defense team) all in one person, I think 13 years later from their performance to tear DNA evidence apart, he's in for a very big disappointment in trying to save his son.
Thanks for the update from everyone on this "new" news. Out goes my latest theory (RG & AK) and back to my original theory of all three. We may never learn who actually plunged the fatal blow. At this point I find that not so important, though I know it is relevant to most all of us, me included. Maybe it was only RS & RG in the bedroom and AK in the kitchen. Regardless, they all should go down for M1. Maybe there will be clarifying hard evidence yet to be added to the prosecutors case, but I no longer can imagine any exculpatory evidence clearing either RS or AK.
Two questions I still have is how premeditated was it (original theory)? I think Xin characterizes the three the closest to what we may find out at a trial:RS the instigator/inspiration, AK the connector, RG the player/ provider. As long as this new hard physical evidence holds up to all scrutiny.
And why, when all three are so young has not one of them confessed? When young inexperienced persons not previously involved in crime (maybe not RG in this case) commit murder they are usually broken psychologically early under questioning. This group is quite unusual in sticking to their respective innocence amongst each.
(I think he suggests, denfying he's son's anal-ness, that the slob whore amanda once wore mk's bra, which now, unwashed, mk wore that night of horrors.) TIme again for daddykins to STFU. xin
Xin, I didn't mean to be crass and held back when reading RS fathers explanation for the bra strap thing.
but hell, AK could not fill MKs bra.
No way that happened.
and if it did, well HELLO, how come MK didn't wash off RS DNA after AK wore it.
what utter rubbish, he's clutching at straws.
Okay, Viv. Just don't confuse the main new presentation posted a couple of days ago (events leading up to murder (big file)) ...
http://www.mediafire.com/?7cyrtluw1e5
... with a short collection of severed bra related snaps, which I slapped together this evening re. the RS DNA on bra news:
http://www.mediafire.com/?2mvcvlpnky1
Goodnite!
thanks kermit for the ppt
Wonders why AK doesn't cop a plea confession now and go back to her original (but wrong black man) story. Paraphasing: "I was in the kitchen, MK and RG went into her bedroom. Next thing I knew she was screaming. I covered my ears. Oh, I remember RS was there and he must have gone into the bedroom too because he came out of the bedroom. I was in shock and forced into helping RS in cleaning up."
A confession to save her ass from M1/M2 and get an accessory charge to enable/cover-up/obstruction charge.
Only thing I can figure is she wasn't in the kitchen and the other two know it, so best to stay silent. Even after her "b/f" of just two weeks has already pointed fingers at her. He can't do that anymore.
Maybe AK was the instigator & the connector after all and RS the suggester/inspiration & player and RG the player/dealer.
Telegraph report has been published online:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher111.xml
Forgive me if I've missed something in the posts above, but I think this is a new detail:
"The fastener appeared to have been cut, rather than ripped, off the bra. "We know that it belonged to one of Miss Kercher's bras because we found a bra that was missing a fastener and it matched," the source added.
However, the fastener was not from the bloody bra which was discovered near Miss Kercher's body, and which allegedly bears traces of Guede's DNA on its strap."
I've shared flats and houses with other women. I went to a girls' boarding school, which was not distinguished for offering any kind of privacy. We all at one time or another borrowed clothes - skirts, dresses, jeans, shirts. But not one woman or girl I've ever met has borrowed a bra from another. Maybe I'm a sheltered sort of cove... But you just don't. Am with Xin on the STFU daddio theme...
coyotewaits - maybe. both RHG & RS have a knowledge of murderers / serial killers. from RS blog, and the name RHG used to get into Germany, except RHGs was a 'would be' killer.
If AK was 'forced' into a cover-up & nothing more why was she not afraid of RS subsequently, but 'in love' with him even from prison. Also, she may have at least looked in on MKs body in news broke just before christmas/new years time.
I do not think she was so disgusted by the crime IMHO
...'clutching at straws'...'climbing up mirrors'...with this little leak we've come full circle. I am now where I was 2 months ago, but much more 'tranquil' and 'serene'.
http://tinyurl.com/ypquzv
This is the day before today. RS's dad and new (to me) expert medical witness with Maresca. I felt a wind change watching this...if any of you translator folk are still out there we could do our nicest bits.
There are lots of trainers in this programme; RS's team bring a load. Next time it will have to be dna...
Kermit, I was typing while you posted. Thanks very much for those two links - have saved them. Night! And goodnight to all here too.
good thoughts viv
Sometimes it's the details that get you.
Viv | 01.10.08 - 8:12 pm | #
I know what you mean about the details, Viv. Suddenly, with today's revelation tht her bra was cut with a knife, the inescapably brutal murder becomes a horrifyingly personal vignette. The sadistic, greedy nature of the killers and the moment to moment terror and despair of Meredith becomes unmercifully palapable.
I think that, if this evidence holds up and leaves no credible out for RS, he will begin to talk. Without the solid forensic evidence, all three could continue to deny. But considering that one of RS' first comment in jail was "If we are here, it is above all the fault of Amana", I have to believe that , once pinned down by his pesky DNA, he will spread culpability at every chance.
'pesky dna'
I don't want to sound conceited here...but probably will. The judge's decision to keep RS and AK in prison was not as predictable ('scontatato' is much more better) as many people said. The judge knows much more than we do. (but only what the PM gave him) The fact that we knew/know much less than the investigators has always been clear to me, but not to many of you. (Pinecone and Robert M at top of the list)
Sorry for horrible typos, it's probably down to my tranqillita or serenita. That's much more better.
No, not conceited...not at all. You know the Italian justice system better than most of us, Damian. And you're right--Despite all the leaks to the press that we've ranted and raved about, the investigators probably leaked only as much as they chose to. The rest they've played closer to the vest. Cliff Van Sandt tried to tell us in the Dateline segment that, " These are good cops."
You sound as though you see this investigation closing in and nearing an end--Do you?
annarbor, nearing an end, no, but I've thought for a while (since Ricciarelli's decision) that they have enough to prove the guilt of those responsible.
Il Messaggero reports that RG's dna was found on Meredith's bag and on the sleeve of her tracksuit,(tuta) near the wrist. (dna from blood) Both items were in Meredith's room.
http://tinyurl.com/2rgnq5
The judge knows much more than we do
damian | 01.10.08 - 9:17 pm | #
You know, Damian, thinking about a few of your last comments, it occured to me that in most sexual assault/murders, we hear about rape as the form of assault.
In this instance we have heard from the start about "extreme and violent sex games". The papers have, from the start contained vague reports of MK being forced to submit to/refusing to take part in, a "sex act against her will and/or that was carried out in a hurry". These stories suggest, as you say, damian, some very specific physical evidence known only to investigators, that has likely informed and guided the invesigation.
I am happy that the investigators are building a solid forensic case--i admit that I wish that it could conclude soon and that investigators would present an airtight case against the perpetrators and put them away. Hmmmm, I guess it is the "solid" and "airtight" qualities that are requiring the slow, careful pace....patience, patience.
Good night.
OK, here we go again with different media reports and their sources.
From the Telegraph (tabby) today 01.11.08
""We found a fastener for a bra in Miss Kercher's room one month ago, in a subsequent search," said a police source close to the investigation. He said the fastener had not been spotted in the initial search of the premises in November.
The fastener appeared to have been cut, rather than ripped, off the bra. "We know that it belonged to one of Miss Kercher's bras because we found a bra that was missing a fastener and it matched," the source added.
However, the fastener was not from the bloody bra which was discovered near Miss Kercher's body, and which allegedly bears traces of Guede's DNA on its strap.
The police believe that all three suspects can now be placed at the scene of the crime. "There has also been new evidence against Guede. His DNA was found on Miss Kercher's tracksuit and on her bag," said the source."
see full article posted by Viv @ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/
...wkercher111.xml
I mean WTF, like in WTF. WTH is the real story about a piece of a bra strap? Not being the bloody bra? What bra? Whose bra?
WTF; Johnny Cochran would tear this report to shreads with his back to the jury.
So coyote just has to wait. Wait for more clarification on this new "news" which is now less than FACT .
Thanks Viv for the post ans link for jolting me back to reality about this whole case and how the media plays it out. Guess I got a bit soft over the holiday.
This bra piece that matches another of MK bras (found where in her under garments drawer, clean?) that appears cut off is not going to hold up in any court that it solidly places RS at the crime scene at the time of the crime.
This conclusion apparent drawn by the media reporter is worthless. "Now for the rest of the story?"
However, the fastener was not from the bloody bra which was discovered near Miss Kercher's body, and which allegedly bears traces of Guede's DNA on its strap."
Viv/cw
I haven’t found another independent source for this yet. I’m wondering if this might be a translation snafu on the part of the British paper, or perhaps the writer was speculating?
I am happy that the investigators are building a solid forensic case--i admit that I wish that it could conclude soon and that investigators would present an airtight case against the perpetrators and put them away. Hmmmm, I guess it is the "solid" and "airtight" qualities that are requiring the slow, careful pace....patience, patience.
annarbor | 01.10.08 - 11:27 pm
The only airtight case I still see based on media reports (all we have here) is still just against RG.
"...'clutching at straws'...'climbing up mirrors'...with this little leak we've come full circle" damian
Correct, except the media is clutching at straws again to convict RS and AK. Yes obviously the investigators, forensics lab, and PM have more, but what more. Today's announcement about a piece of bra material (cut off with a knife? or scissors) with supposedly RS DNA on it?
Tell me what DNA analysis technique they are using? I mean that rhetorically, of course. Is it Y-STR technique processing (Y-chromosome autosomal STR profiling), any cellular chromosone profiling technique or LCN advanced amplification processing technique.
Until we know more accurate details, always in the devil, RS father and lawyers will have a field day discounting this latest piece of so called DNA evidence. The wait is definitely still alive and well.
It's always best to read a few different versions. Links are above.
cw - Once again, we are getting our info from a variety of news sources. But, as Damian has said, the judge has the original info. If it was completely irrelevant information (like the Telegraph seems to imply), I don't think it would have been leaked to the public at all. I'm assuming the Telegraph messed that bit up, since the other sources seem to agree that it was indeed from the bra MK was wearing that night.
If you need a FREE and LEGAL Office replacement to view Kermit's powerpoint (yes it does spreadsheets and docs too) google OpenOffice. Free for both Windows or Macs and is driving Microsoft crazy.
Spread the "Word" - it's free...
Cheers.
Thanks, ddude. My old PPT version can't handle Kermit's presentation.
A slight off-topic thing here: alot of you seem to be Mac users ...
xin said: ...on my Mac.
xin | 01.10.08 - 2:14 pm |
Sparrow said: I have a Mac however!
Sparrow | 01.08.08 - 5:56 pm |
Viv said: When I find my mac disc...
Viv | 01.10.08 - 8:12 pm |
The disk on my old iBook blew out months ago and I went back to Windows due to professional reasons, not personal preference. Even though that model and processor aren't around any longer, disks are cheap and I may just try to get a last hurrah out my Mac. If that were to happen (I'm talking long-term, I first have Martin Luther's 95 theses of house-hold things to be dealt with/ fixed/ replaced, nailed to the door), I could put the powerpoints into something on Mac. So ... what do you use (if anything) for presentations on your Macs?:
- Keynote?, AppleWorks?, MSOffice for Mac?(Sparrow no), OpenOffice? The latter 2 don't justify any effort as they read ppt.; AppleWorks isn't especially powerful, but I could probably port the pres to it; Keynote is superpowerful.
Thank you very much for Open Office advice, ddude and Kermit. I downloaded that a while ago, but just need to find the disc for my mac, in order to unlock it... a search for the weekend, I think.
I don't think the Telegraph's correspondent in Rome would speculate about the detail discussed above. Moore must have got that from a source. Of course it may well be wrong. We'll find out eventually.
I'm not going to speculate either, but I can think of several reasons why there would be two separate garments holding two suspects' DNA traces, in the bedroom of the person who owned them, and where she was murdered.
Kermit, I don't make presentations, and am ashamed as a Mac User that I am not aware of Keynote. I am woefully out of date. I tried to download OpenOffice today, but it didn't work. I'd be willing to take a look at Keynote though, if you think it worthwhile. Uh-oh, way off topic, aren't we?
I do have a new theory on the murder but am too exhausted to write it. I've come over to Xin's (Raffaele guilty as sin) idea, and kept mine (Rudy more innocent than anyone thinks). It still holds together! But for a few holes. It brings back some of the old ideas, but one I haven't seen mentioned before, although it might have been...
Why was Amanda's room scrubbed clean, along with the main area of the apartment? Because while RS and AK were cleaning and staging, they were dripping blood into different parts of the apartment. They took some of MK's clothes off, took them to the washer, dripped blood here and there. They went into Amanda's room to get something they needed, and dripped blood there. Raffaele, being the clean, organized, thorough one, made sure they did a good job. But it was too good a job in some regard.
Okay, here's the rest of it... Who were the two who ran away after the scream? AK and RS. The brown-haired Italian and the one with the American accent. RS did say to Rudy the "Black man found..." thing. Rudy stayed awhile with MK, then ran. AK and RS regrouped somewhere to create their plan for the cleanup and staging. Rudy's presence was good, but not good enough. They had to not only clean up but to stage. Back to the old idea of the rape indications being staged. They took her clothes off to get rid of any of their own DNA on them, but it also helped with the rape staging.
Yeah, I know... Rudy's Y chromosome... there are some things that don't yet fit, but I just can't see Rudy working with those two. What's in it for him? He was not a part of their original plan.
What was in it for AK and RS? As mentioned by many already, AK was furious with MK, and complained to RS about her. And RS had been so set free by all this sex from his new wild woman that he confided his wishes for more extreme thrills. They hatched a plan to please them both. So in a way, it's not Rudy who is the replacement in the Patrick story, but actually Raffaele. She said she'd help Patrick consummate his desires with MK, but it was actually Raf. I wouldn't venture to say that AK wanted it to be murder. Rather she wanted RS to give MK a good scare, possibly rough her up. Rape? I'm not sure. Maybe. But whatever it was it would provide RS with his kicks and scare MK so much that maybe she wouldn't come back after her winter break. That's what AK would get out of it. Also, she got to listen in on the whole thing. RS would have been in a disguise of some sort, so MK wouldn't know it was him, so he could be the scary stranger/intruder. He also stayed in back of her most of the time so she couldn't study him and figure it out. But in the end, RS with all the control, and the big knife in hand, couldn't resist.
The holes in the story:
I'm not sure if anything with Rudy and MK was consensual or not, so I'm not even addressing it. But I don't think Rudy and RS were working together. The plan for that night was hatched between AK and RS, mostly while they were in bed. Rudy wasn't in bed with them.
If this scenario were true, I don't know why Rudy doesn't tell the entire story. So, while I can't believe he was working with them, I also can't understand why he would be afraid of them at this point.
Sparrow, don't worry about Keynote if you don't make presentations (it also costs €). OpenOffice is big and can be a little quirky to install on a Mac (I suffered some X.11 issues). Tell me over the weekend if you still can't view the ppt's, there may be some alternative.
Ref. your theory, what's confirmed is that all 3 perps were there, that RS wasn't just part of cleanup. I THINK I read somewhere that MK's money was in a drawer with her underwear. Money theft from that drawer could lead to Bra2 (if the Telegraph is right and there is a second bra), or vice versa.
If there were screams/yelling heard from the outside by neighbours, that wasn't the victim (unless she managed to almost escape, put up a fuss in the parking area or doorway and was dragged back in), because of the thick stone walls of the house, and the cold night (no windows open).(The house is tucked away in the ravine on the other side of the reinforced concrete parking lot)
So - for me - the screaming/yelling was on the part of the perpetrators and is indicative that not all three had participated in a perfectly planned murder, where they would have withdrawn according to plan and without making a fuss. Killing was not foreseen for at least one of them (AK according to your argument)- maybe not for any of them, just a good time raping and scaring the victim. But either by mistake, or by premeditated or on-the-spot desire by one of them (RS in your scenario), the knife is pushed a few centimeters too far.
I'm trying to fit Rudy into your scenario. Not only is he not necessary for that scenario, he's clutter ... Therefore, I think RHG had to be involved in the plan (structured or not). Inspite of his knifes and katanas, RS is the sort of kid who gets sand kicked in his face at the beach, while Rudy is an almost 2 meter (maybe exageration, but he is tall), semi-athletic basketball player. If Rudy really had some feeling for the victim (whether it was responded to or not by her), he could have thrown RS for a 3 pointer.
... one of the three pushed the knife too far, the other two said "oh, sh**" when they realised that the fun was over, and they split making a lot of noise. I can't believe RHG comforted the victim, he's a classic coward (they all are). What seems to have happened is that RS and AK (as per your scenario) coordinated their next moves as they ran, while Rudy was left to fend for himself. In that light, without him participating in the cleanup, RS and AK could pick and choose the items to be cleaned or not, although in modern times, it's difficult or impossible to cover all your tracks (especially when the Postal Police show up all too early on the scene ... which leads me to the mobile phones - in theory not key but so strange how they were disposed of).
This was just posted by CNN, and includes comments from RS' lawyer. It sounds as though they are saying that the DNA was found on the same bra that RGH's DNA was on--the bra that MK wore the night she was murdered.
ROME, Italy (CNN) -- DNA belonging to Raffaele Sollecito, a suspect in the murder of a British student in Italy, was found on a bra belonging to the victim, his lawyer said Friday.
"DNA traces were found on the hook of the bra that had been cut off with a knife," the Italian's lawyer Luca Maori told CNN.
Maori admitted that the latest finding complicated the position of his client, who maintains he was not in the house at the time of the crime. He said further tests were necessary.
"It is not a strong DNA trace" Maori said. "My client visited the house frequently and that trace could pre-date the murder."
He said the evidence was uncovered during a second inspection of the crime scene in mid-December.
http://tinyurl.com/yuk9bs
And this hilarious bit from RS' father:
However Mr Sollecito's father Francesco denied his son was at the house saying, "The most likely explanation is that Amanda had borrowed the bra, and so Raffaele left his trace there when he was taking her clothes off."
"These girls lived in the same house. Perhaps they swapped their underwear. Amanda was familiar enough, and as you know, she also wore my son's underwear. I don't think she would have any scruples about borrowing her friend's bra".
He added: "My son was definitely not in the room of the massacre. We have already demonstrated irrefutably that the bloody footprint near the body was not from his shoe."
http://tinyurl.com/2jcb7g
irrefurtably?
And another footprint's been found. How many does this make in total now??
http://news.sky.com/skynews/
arti...1300322,00.html
------------------------------
wow-- I guess they didn't clean up Amanda room and other parts of the house as well as they thought. wow.
police say they hope to close invesitation by end of the summer
http://tinyurl.com/2ktahl
and this article indicates that there are a few bloody footprints in knoxs room.
http://tinyurl.com/33fj9z
Well, we all knew something went on in there. I can't believe they just discovered this evidence recently.
Must be a reason why they are leaking all this stuff now. I bet that they are putting the pressure on for someone to break.
X11 for Mac (so it can use OpenOffice) is on your original OS Install CD or DVD. Install X11. Then run Software Update. Run X11 from your Utilities folder first, then start OpenOffice. Get X11 working and your bonus is you can run Gimpshop. If no, there's NeoOffice (Macs only).
Mac Love,
It is amazing, Chris, isn't it, that all this evidence was overlooked the first time around and not found until the second sweep?
I'm guessing that the bare footprint may belong to AK. We're pretty sure that RS was wearing his trainers (despite what dad says). I don't believe the sex with Rudy was consensual, so I dont see him removing clothes, shoes (anymore than necessary). It is Amanda's house and IMO, she would be most likely to kick off her shoes and be barefoot. These are the pieces of evidence that I think/hope will push someone into talking.
Just when I was just starting to buy into Raffaele/Daddy’s explanation for how Meredith’s blood was found on Raf’s knife, now the ‘RMS Raffaele’ has just sailed into another iceberg. In my mind it would either take Raf blood., or an extreme amount of force on his part yanking on the bra clasp to leave a few skin cells behind. The few remaining dna molecules left behind would have to be replicated many times before a sufficient amount for a match to be made. I have more faith now that the Italians are providing sufficient where-with-all to solve this case.
I originally had doubts as to Raffaele’s involvement, other than cleanup. It’s becoming more evident that RS wasn’t doing all this cleanup just trying to save AK’s behind.
Note chris: I haven’t heard before about bloody footprints in Knox’s room. This would be another smoking gun.
"These girls lived in the same house. Perhaps they swapped their underwear. Amanda was familiar enough, and as you know, she also wore my son's underwear. I don't think she would have any scruples about borrowing her friend's bra".--RS' Father
If Ak had worn MK's bra, wouldn't her DNA be found as well? I haven't heard any news to that effect.
annarbor
RK's facebook doesn't show him wearing a bra. Maybe he was just quirky.
DLW,
Ha! Well cross dressing wouldn't surprise me at this point--But I guess I was thinking that more about Amanda(Stealing RS' Boxer shorts!).
By the way, who is RK?
We have evidence that RS liked to play dress-up, but cross-dresser? whoa. That would just be too damn hot, and would certainly enhance the "yeah, but..." comments by the good dr. sollecito (no wonder the kid finds it impossible to be honest)
NO> it's two men--r&r-- who were unwillingly abandoned by their mothers too soon, and too suddenly, digging into an underwear drawer to find the bra that MK and AK shared? maybe it was really rs shopping for a new thong that day after...
WHO the F*ck do these clowns think they are kidding? (altho I do think RS liked playing dress-up)
these three ganged up on, assaulted, tortured and then murdered poor meredith.
And another footprint's been found. How many does this make in total now??
http://news.sky.com/skynews/ arti...1300322,00.html
------------------------------
Anonymous | 01.11.08 - 11:05 am
------------------------------
Sorry, it was me who wrote that. Vista doesn't seem to want to keep anything in its memory!
annarbor
Sorry, I meant RS. These darn keyboards.
so, to see what we have here---would this "new" footprint-finding be the result of a THIRD visit by forensics to the house of horrors? OR, are we getting info released that was discovered on the SECOND visit to the HOH?
we may not know, I guess.
zin - so, to see what we have here---would this "new" footprint-finding be the result of a THIRD visit by forensics to the house of horrors? OR, are we getting info released that was discovered on the SECOND visit to the HOH?
-----------------------------
I would assume it's from the second visit, mainly because how could they have missed it when they were there? Unless they're just being more 'thorough' now - but if that's the case, what the heck were they doing before??
Soozie,
I wonder if they didn't use Luminol the first visit but once they realized that someone had done extensive cleaning up they came back with Luminol and found the footprint in AK's room? Just a guess.
Corrine
I agree. If they used bleach on the cleanup, the luminal would show too many false positive's to be of much use. After sufficient time for the chlorine to dissipate, maybe weeks ,they could come back with the luminal to discover what was left?
Damian I've always assumed PLE had more evidence than it was revealing, and that was certainly confirmed by Van Zandt's tour of the crime lab (see my comments above on that). Also, I'm aware of how much time it takes to PROCESS certain types of evidence, such as the DNA, so stuff being announced now shouldn't surprise any of us.
What I went off on was the competency of the evidence collection. Which, given that they HAD to go back to the house for a SECOND sweep a month later, and that this sweep has apparently produced STUNNING evidence, goes to what seems obvious: Rome had to step in to help Perugia. I've said that before. You can dress me up in a CSI suit but that wouldn't mean I'd know what I was going. No luminol applied to Amanda's room until 2nd sweep? Yet they announced after the first sweep it was clean??? (Of course, that could have been a psyche feint by investigators to lull Amanda into saying something.)
As to STUNNING evidence:
(A) if the RS DNA is on a cut-off clasp from ANOTHER Meredith bra, and not the one she was wearing, then Team RS can indeed make the claim for contamination, or even that the transfer came from Amanda screwing around with Meredith's clothes after screwing around with RS at some other time. She could herself have cut the clasp off as a spite gesture knowing that that bra was one of Meredith's favorites. There's a lot of improbabilites in that and the Occam's Razor approach to that particular piece of "evidence" would be that transfer had to come directly from RS (after all, the strap is cut & he's the one with the knife fixation).
(B) But the really stunning one though is the BLOODY BARE FOOTPRINT in Amanda's room. And they know already who's it is (though in the US they'd have to get a court order first to get sole impressions from the Intrepid Trio). And if Amanda's foot, whether they can enhance DNA for type testing or not, that's much much better for LE than the two blood drops in the shared bathroom. Sole print in blood is as close to having Amanda's fingerprint in Meredith's blood on Meredith's body--the best single piece of evidence possible--that they may ever get.
Rome lab is indeed working extra-special hard on this case. It wants the world to accept the final verdict as arrived at on a full scientific base, and with enough data points to overwhelm any objections. As do I.
And thanks again Kermit!
robert Yo happy new year, good to see you.
where is the ROOT of the "second bra" theory? it was clear to the three or four of us yesterday (here when the news unfolded) afternoon that it was the bloody, cut, pulled out of shape bra on the floor.
just asking; i mean there are people here who PURPOSELY put out false, confusing information (and are not more than just a tick or two above plagarism) for some nonsensical sophmoric "point." of course, i skip their drivel, but others can innocently pick up the bs and move along.
Xin,
The only place I saw the "second bra" theory was the UK's Telegraph. I've been thinking maybe it was just a mistranslation? Every other source I have seen has repeated that the fastener/hook/small piece of fabric is the same bra as the one with RG's DNA.
Robert, it does make some sense that no luminol was used in the first sweep as luminol can cause other evidence to fade or disappear. Also, apparently bleach can cause false positives or so I read on a couple of sites on luminol.
BBC news it is the bra meredith was wearing when murdered.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_ne...ews/
7183834.stm
Xin,
Wait, that isn't true. I also saw it mentioned in blogs on Seattle PI but the people bringing it up never posted the links. I then finally stumbled across the Telegraph version of the story but like I say, that is the only news source I saw that wrote it which is partly why I think it must have been a mistranslation (or we have yet another AK fan club)
If the BEEB says its the clasp from the bra she was wearing when murdered, then it is. Sometimes I think the original sources, i.e. LE speaking to Italian newspapers, aren't TOO precise either and so the chances of misunderstanding (not deliberate) spread which may be the case with the Telegraph story. Though there are what look to be direct quotes in there. Surely someone in Euro will ask for a firm clarification.
And to repeat: Kermit! Waaay impressive, really. And I loved the .... .. ..... at the last page. I've seen that used in American comics to wonderful effect, but to have that paced transition to the ...... ...... was a catch in the throat.
.
Jut when, and WHY?, the clothes were removed (but her top left on) has not been publicly infered by the police. The use of a knife to cut the backstrap where the clasp was could be (a) part of the intimidation before murder [see last paragbraph here] or (b) part of the effort to remove pieces of clothing as part of the after-murder staging, which confounds me. I'm thinking it was a bit of both, the strap cut as intimidation and the clothing removal as part of staging. The moving onto "staging" as their coverup is how blood got around the house. And it was unnecessary.
As with many of us, I'm now back to my original concept except I'm more inclined now to have Rafe make the fatal thrust than Amanda, given his "interests". He just had to see what it felt like. I do hope Rome Labs comes up with even more conclusive blood/DNA evidence. And the declaration this "should be wrapped up by summer" suggests their commitment now to thoroughness. Interpretation, as we know from here, is some thing else.
To xin I see the connection among your expressed passions here & at the blogsite. Whether its a male or female perp doesn't matter; that its the same old degradation again & again does. Rafe as just another Phil albeit "braver", in that all knife work is upclose & personal. (Because this is Italy, my mind wanders back to the Tybalt/Mercutio scene in R & J. Twil serve.)
that paced transition to the ...... ...... was a catch in the throat.
Robert M. | 01.11.08 - 5:06 pm |
Glad you liked it. Comments from all of you, and the news of yesterday (RS DNA on bra) and today (bloody footprints) make me want to do the next section, about what went on in the house. (It'll take time)
(Ref. Apple, I just tested the pres on my daughter's Mac (with MSOffice for Mac) and you see it okay, but without transitions.)
Meredith's family has said they have faith in the Italian justice system, and although it's the Roman forensic team that seems to have made the two latest breakthroughs, her family's trust seems to be well placed for the moment.
Robert M: If the BEEB says its the clasp from the bra she was wearing when murdered, then it is.
----------------------------
Yes. The BBC don't report anything that hasn't been substantiated. That's why there's been so little 'new' news on there lately. So far, most of the 'facts' appear to have been leaks.
If I see something reported on the BBC, I know it's been substantiated.
I agree that it now looks like the Telegraph report contains an error.
I posted a link to that article here yesterday, and pointed out the last sentence of this bit, just because it hadn't appeared in any other report.
The fastener appeared to have been cut, rather than ripped, off the bra. "We know that it belonged to one of Miss Kercher's bras because we found a bra that was missing a fastener and it matched," the source added. However, the fastener was not from the bloody bra which was discovered near Miss Kercher's body, and which allegedly bears traces of Guede's DNA on its strap.
I thought this worth highlighting in case a) it was true or b) it was a typo (either the journalist or his sub-editor inserted 'not' by mistake) and therefore not true. I wasn't (and am still not) sure about it, and wanted to flag it up in case people took it at face value, esp if they hadn't read the other reports.
I would be disappointed if the Telegraph employed a permanent correspondent in Italy who was not fluent in Italian. Like I said above, if it's an error, we'll know soon enough.
Finally, this is the BBC news latest on the bare footprint and the bra:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/71.../uk/
7183834.stm
ref above, should have added c) the journalist misheard his source / the source was wrong or d) he really needs his ears syringed...
Kermit, thanks for the comments. As for Rudy not being necessary in the story, that's true. I left him as have some encounter with MK before the murder, either consensual or not, or a mix of the two. I think what I wrote was a last ditch effort to see some decency somewhere in this story. But it gives too much credit to all. Too much credit to Rudy for telling some truth, and too much credit to the other two for being too smart (given there was a plan, execution of plan, and coverup). Maybe what makes the most sense is that they were all present at the time, all known to and recognized by MK (no ambush prank), and the situation, led by RS, just escalated. The followers, RG and AK participated in part, doing more than they imagined they might (still looking for some decency I guess) not expecting it to go so far, but not stopping it either, and then it was too late. I agree totally with your post at | 01.11.08 - 8:19 am |
As for the characterizations of Raf being the kind to have sand kicked in the face, and Rudy being able to take him, maybe I haven't read enough, but I don't see them that way. Maybe Raf stays away from the beach most of the time (to avoid the sand in face), but when he has weapon in hand (beloved knives) next to an insecure fellow (African in Italy wanting to be loved), no matter what the size, he can dominate.
It's possible that Rudy initiated the assault on his own and the others joined in, but even then, it seems RS would be the killer.
I never had the strong feeling of blood lust from RS that Xin describes, but I have been convinced. Plus, there's such an accidental nature to Rudy's involvement. He did nothing to cover up, except to run away. He didn't even dispose of his bloody clothing (so he says). If he'd used the murder weapon, it probably would have been found. But AK and RS were so careful to clean up, and clam up, releasing sloppy lies (AK), and careful misleading statements (RS).
Off-topic-
(Ref. Apple, I just tested the pres on my daughter's Mac (with MSOffice for Mac) and you see it okay, but without transitions.)--- Kermit
Also, in slide show mode it can't load all the images on the map. I get a message that says "memory too full to load images." I'm thinking this comes from the software and not my computer because I have quite a lot of memory and I don't have that problem when working with Photoshop, when I have loads of pics out at the same time.
So, yes, I can get the gist of your presentation and it looks great with a lot of well organized info, but I can't see the magic. Yet.
I'll fiddle with it more and get back to you later. Thanks.
where is the ROOT of the "second bra" theory? it was clear to the three or four of us yesterday (here when the news unfolded) afternoon that it was the bloody, cut, pulled out of shape bra on the floor.
just asking; i mean there are people here who PURPOSELY put out false, confusing information (and are not more than just a tick or two above plagarism) for some nonsensical sophmoric "point." of course, i skip their drivel, but others can innocently pick up the bs and move along.
xin | 01.11.08 - 3:27 pm
There you go again xin. Throwing sh_t and flame at others rather than finding facts. The BBC post just belows yours by chris is the FIRST published press article that the piece of fabric is from the same bloody bra with RG DNA on it.
Go back and find any other article that said that posted or publiched before the BBC 2008 11 Jan 17:05 GMT.
You and others were inferring it, not reading it. Now you have read it. Don't claim you read it before because you didn't.
The facts from published reports are this. No articles clarified specifically that it was the same bloody bra. The reporters and their editors were perhaps implying it, but they were not specific. This is a common problem with the press especially in the area of DNA analysis. Even the follow up articles on the reaction of RS lawyers and father seemed to imply it wasn't the bloody bra.
And what is the possibility it still isn't the same bra? Yes, BBC is more reputable and I would lean toward their sources as been more accurate. Note in my Telegraph post that I referred to them as "Tabby" as in tabloid press, questioning their veracity.
But lets get some further clarification.
I think it's the same bra because they also said that RHGs DNA had been found on the bra.
oh god...your not gonna start with the medals again are you? just FO
.
And finally to the bloody footprint. How many blood cells are there to be gathered. Can their DNA be sequenced for typing. Are they corrupted cells that need to be amplified before they can be sequenced and typed. The foot/sole print may match AK foot in size, but means nothing without the blood being I.D. as belonging to MK.
That would be a killer fact if the blood can be identified as MK's but the footprint identifiable enough that it could not be sized to MK foot.
I doubt very much that after a cleaning, even with Luminol and the possibility of false positives, they can size the print.
And if they have to use LCN DNA amplification processing on the blood cells gathered, then it will most likely not stand up as the technique is still too controversial and too subject to contamination. (BTW, in DNA processing contamination does not just imply that someone else's DNA get mixed with it. It can mean when growing additional cells to be able to sequence the DNA, called amplification, the DNA itself in the sample cells (let's say 12 cells or less) could themselves be corrupted (modified, transposed) and produce only more corruption.)
let's not all argue among ourselves about whether we know all the evidence, and medals and stuff.
we all feel horrific about this crime, we are all curious, we all have views.
Best thing we can do is 'chat' about our theories, post news, kermit posts excellent ppts, yeah things may become 'heated' at times.
But to descend into flaming. aggghhh. It's so inconsiderate to other posters. Yep, I know I am adding to it with this post, but let it be the end and that. [/patronising over]
Peter Vronsky
Serial Killers -The Method and Madness of Monsters
Berkley Books NYC
2004
chapter 8
the killing times -the method to the madness
phase 1: Dissociative-Fantasy-Aura State
IMO THIS IS THE BIG A TO A TEE:
"fantasies accompanied by compulsive masturbation (big a's random unpersonal conquests), which conditions a link between fantasies and sexual urges...at some indeterminate point they cross the threshold where they no longer know or are aware of the difference between fantasy and reality. They are no longer cognizant that the thoughts they are having originated in fantasy: Reality and fantasy become merged and the person is said to be in a dissociative state.
The dissociative process can last anywhere from a few hours to a months...."
3 fantasists meeting up at a time when phantasy is at its most prominent in the human calendar.
this tragedy was already written in the stars twinkling in the dark hearts of wounded children years before the fatal play was staged.
.
A gentle correction, cw... The Daily Telegraph is most definitely not a tabloid, in shape or tone or quality. Although many people in the UK wouldn't much fancy it's right-leaning political stance, for sure. It's a broadsheet, along with The Times, The Independent and the Guardian. Between them, these four papers cover pretty much the whole political spectrum, and anyone with an interest in current affairs tends to read them all, for the broadest range of newsgathering and opinion.
This whole hoo-ha on Haloscan has been caused by one line in Moore's news report in which he wrote that (according to his sources) the fastener wasn't from the same garment as that containing Guede's DNA.
I'll not comment further on this, and will only repeat here that I initially drew everyone's attention to it (please do check yesterday's posts) because it seemed to be a new piece of information. I was trusting everyone here to take that information on board, as we have done with everything else that's been reported. Take on board doesn't mean believe / disbelieve. Just something to be mindful of. As AnnArbor would say, patience, patience.
From a professional point of view, I am naturally chuffed that the BBC gets a higher approval rating than the tabloid press...
The dissociative process can last anywhere from a few hours to a FEW months....
sorry its 1 in the morning and the guinness is weighing heavy
i second your motion Loz, less is sometimes more -more or less
.
wow-- I guess they didn't clean up Amanda room and other parts of the house as well as they thought. wow.
chris | 01.11.08 - 11:19 am | #
I think they left the mopping until last. I like sparrows theory but for RHG not being violent. I think they're all violent beggars.
anyway, look at all the blood trails on the floor from MKs room etc, some done during clean up. Last on the claning rota would have been to mop the floors & clean the walls. maybe even twice. with the washing machine going and that. well, what I think is they hadn't finished cleaning or mopping when the postal police arrived.
also, when first reading AKs newest statement about the events that night. in her orig' police statement she says they made love, then she fell asleep. In the new one she made love with RS AFTER the TOD, after 11, after dinner. This is an awful thought and maybe even the shopping for lingerie thing was 'sexed up' BUT I don't wonder if they didn't make love after the crime at RS house.
urgh. it really IS one in the morning. One whisky less would have made more sense, in my case, Rob!
nearly forgot to thank ddude for the further Mac advice at 11.54am. Am still looking for that elusive Macdisc!
Have a good weekend, everyone. Goodnight.
It is Amanda's house and IMO, she would be most likely to kick off her shoes and be barefoot. annarbor | 01.11.08 - 12:00 pm | #
after her shower? to keep dna off her already cleaned shoes. her bedroom floor being mopped again was still on her 'to do' list? "I can't do this anymore" a txt more likely to be whining about having to do so much cleaning in her life or to coax RS to do it all, than being emotionally sickened by it. OK that was too nasty of me...
or even sarcasm, do americans do that?
night x
the profiling and the obvious lies of the suspects will be adequate to convict them. their behaviour has not been what would be resonably expected of 'normal' or innocent people tied by circumstance to a gruesome murder.
forensic science is relatively new in civilization's prosecution of those accused of transgression of law (society's expectation).
there is enough in this case that we the public know about for the jarring alarm bells to be ringing....the behaviour of these suspects just don't ring true.
there is so much more in the profiling of the big a and the boyfriend to show what's behind this. i reckon the vampire just fell to his infantile belief in his 'cultural roots' and was not trolling for the opportunity that came his way - the other 2 though had much more pre-fantasied input to the action.
they will all go down in flames and rightly so. i am sure we will hear many new reports about this case over the course of 2008 that will paint things uglier and uglier.
but basically she's dead they did it and that really is that.
.
Jut when, and WHY?, the clothes were removed (but her top left on) has not been publicly infered by the police.
I didn't want to post this but seeing Kermits latest pics from last night, it might be that MKs bra as kind of half hanging off when she was stabbed.
"This whole hoo-ha on Haloscan has been caused by one line in Moore's news report in which he wrote that (according to his sources) the fastener wasn't from the same garment as that containing Guede's DNA.
From a professional point of view, I am naturally chuffed that the BBC gets a higher approval rating than the tabloid press..."
Viv | 01.11.08 - 7:55 pm |
Thanks for the clarification Viv on the Telegraph. But do you not find it confusing as to exactly 'what' bra it is when the "only two" press reports, of about eight total linked here, that specifically identified which bra the ILE was referring to. And both of those where reputable press with supposedly good sources from Italy and yet they were diametrically opposite in their reports.
I have had this similar type of issue with the reputable broadsheets Chicago Tribune and Los Angeles Times (both owned by the Tribune Co), over reported DNA analysis several times. IN those cases it was clear that the reporters were in error not because they didn't want to report clear facts, but because they were not informed enough themselves to ask the right questions to clarify information as to being in fact fact .
I am just not buying into the conclusions reported by the press that ILE investigators now have solid forensic evidence that places all three suspects at the crime scene at the time of the murder. That may be true, but the contradictory and confusing information reported does not lead a person using critical logical thinking to draw the same conclusion. It only leads me to asking more questions.
Obviously we will probably never know all the critical and key facts until presented at a trial, and that is reported as not until summer 2008. And then maybe not until we see the defenses full challenges to the prosecutors evidence. Of course, we could also get some guilty plea deals just before then.
(not snoring yet so decided I might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, and offer up another article...)
La Repubblica
Sollecito stupefied, apparently
http://tinyurl.com/3agoc2
For Italians and linguists to read, and the rest of us to feed into dodgy translation applications...
Xin,
Wait, that isn't true. I also saw it mentioned in blogs on Seattle PI but the people bringing it up never posted the links
thanks corrine. i don't believe anything i read in the seattle blogs...until verified elsewhere...
best
Viv if you need to boot your mac but forgot the password you can start it holding down 't' and then connect it as a firewire device to another mac and change your password from there.
hope that helps. or you can use bootcd.app form the net to make a botable cd on another mac then boot off it in your mac then run disk utility.
.
glad to see you again rob. viv; thanks for info. imo, first account dodgy translation is better than recycled days later...in *foreign* press.
i never doubted the dna source as the murder bra, but it got brought up in a twisted way, so figured time to QUELL it. no need for an endless essay on this, which i am quite capable of doing, but why?
never personal, never; just to keep from the twirl that some enjoy.
best.
Well, a January 12, 2008 dateline article from the UK Guardian Unlimited, says more may details yet to come...more evidence being processed.
--------------
New scientific evidence in Kercher murder
Tom Kington in Rome
Saturday January 12, 2008
The Guardian
Italian investigators say they are confident of wrapping up the investigation into the murder of the British exchange student Meredith Kercher by the summer now that DNA evidence links all three suspects to the scene of the crime.
The latest forensic science tests carried out have allegedly identified DNA belonging to suspect Raffaele Sollecito, 23, on Kercher's bra fastener, found in the bedroom of the Perugia apartment where she was sexually assaulted and fatally stabbed in the neck on November 1.
Article continues
"Additionally, around 70 more test results that could reveal biological evidence in the house are still due to come in," said Edgardo Giobbi, a detective with the Rome serious crime squad.
[continued at publication here}
http://tinyurl.com/33rx7r
"makes me think that the translation of that demand is that Rudy escaped via that route (and Mr. Lawyer already knows that the cameras in question weren't working, or were set at bad angles, or the tapes were erased by some ningcomepoop operator, or whatever)."
I don't think you get it. Lawyers are officers of the court. They can defend people who have admitted their guilt in confidence to them, but lawyers can not lie to the police, judge, or any other official of the court. In fact, a lawyer can not ethically put his client on the stand if he knows the client is going to lie. It's clear you don't understand the process at all.
the other point is that DNA evidence is not "black and white." Basically, what you see is a series of peaks ^ that are certain sizes: like 15, 16, and 18.
You look to see whether the suspect's DNA peaks are there or someone else's.
It's rare in this kind of case to just see the peaks that correspond to the DNA of just one person. So, you could see 15, 16, 18, and 19. so it's not 100% certain that it's the suspect's DNA or someone who shares some of the genes (DNA), or even two people.
Very likely, it's open to interpretation.
Here's a translation of the article posted by Viv:
Murder of Mez, investigation without end, Sollecito is "stunned" about the DNA.
"Stunned" and "astonished." It is not clear why, but Raffaele Sollecito, one of the three suspects of the murder of Meredith, delivered this message to his lawyers, in response to the fact that traces of his DNA were found on the bra of the English student, murdered on the night between the 1st and 2nd of November. Also, his lawyers prefer not to comment on the partial results of the investigation. "We await, however," said the lawyer Brusco, "the official results of the analyses."
In reality, the analyses were never finished in the investigation of the murder of the poor English student. The prosecution guesses that the investigation will not be finished before the end of summer. Only then will it be possible to have a complete picture, and be able to reconstruct with dynamic accuracy, and determine those responsible for the murder. In prison, those accused of the murder, other than Solecitto, at the moment, are Amanda Knox, his girlfriend at the time, and Rudy Hermann Guede, the Ivorian who was in the room with Mez shortly before she was killed by three stabs.
Further scientific evidence and new interrogations are necessary to complete the picture of evidence. Luminol, the agent that locates old traces of blood, should be able to tell us more about the blood that's scattered all over Mez' room. The investigators, overall, await answers from the reliefs on the trail going in and out of Meredith's bedroom, where she was found dead. Also important, are the results of the analysis of the impounded clothing of the three suspects.
Judge Giuliano Mignini should soon hear the four English friends of Meredith. All testimony can become key to reconstructing the dynamics of the crime. One of the friends, Sophie, has already been heard by the magistrate, however she will see the judge again. Sophie was one of the friends with whom Meredith dined on the evening of November 1st, shortly before she was killed. The depositions of the other three friends of Meredith were taken instead by the squadra mobile of Perugia and the Sco. They will now be heard by the judge that coordinates the investigation of the evening before the crime. The official version, so far, is that Mez did not have an appointment that night with Rudy Hermann Guede, as he maintains. The young people have reported to the police details learned, in particular from Amanda Knox, but also from Raffaele Solecitto, while they were waiting to be interviewed in the police station. These were details relating to the death of Meredith, which Amanda could not have known if she were not at the scene of the crime.
The prosecution of Perugia also wants to find two credit cards of Mez. The purse of the young woman was, in fact, found empty after the crime. The two credit cards are missing, but have not been used after Meredith's death.
For those who know Italian better than I, can you tell me how to translate properly:
PM-
squadra mobile-
procura- In this case prosecution seemed okay.
vedere chiaro- see clearly didn't make sense. "Find" is okay?
Please correct any other mistakes if you like.
That's the first I've heard of missing credit cards.
PM - Pubblico Ministero is the Perugia state prosecutor Giuliano Mignini (I've seen him called "judge" and "prosecutor", maybe even "magistrate", according to the translation).
Sometimes he seems to be leading the investigation, at other times it seems to be the "GIP" (investigative judge) Claudia Matteini. She seems to have decision power over his requests: he announced that the six English friends would come back in January for further questioning, she denied the request on procedural grounds.
"squadra mobile" - I've always assumed that that is simply the on-the-spot investigative team (perhaps with the PM as the boss, maybe a senior police detective) who take testimony from witnesses, initial identification and sampling of evidence.
All this makes one want to learn Italian!
thnaks for the translation Sparrow!
Thanks, Sparrow, for the translation! I did a Google Translation last night that left me confused on several points...Yours cleared them up for me. I actually thought that they were referring to 3 knives in the Google version. I see in yours that they say that MK died of 3 stab wounds. I assume that two of those were the more shallow cuts under her chin?
Once again, I am amazed that they are only now doing analysis on the suspects clothes. If those also show blood stains, I would think that they are on their way to having a "preponderance" of evidence.
I'm gotting ahead of things, I know. Patience, patience.
Perugia shock reveals what the dispute is re RS computer activity
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
RS is 'very worried' about the latest developments. He also denies ever having any physical contact with Meredith or her any of her clothes.
http://tinyurl.com/2o96qx
On a lighter note, he's managed to finish his thesis and will send it to the university in the coming days. It's about 'programmazione genetica'.
The local news is reporting that the PM intends to go to England to talk to Meredith's friends and that somekind of summit meeting is being arranged for the '4' suspects.
When an Italian judge decides on the length of a sentence, he/she has a certain 'discretional power' and must take many things into account;one of which is '...the behaviour (of the accused) during and after the crime.'
'dalla condotta contemporanea o sussenguente al reato;'
Articolo 133, Italian Penal Code.
Sorry if this is obvious or the same everywhere.
4, didja say? Patrick not off the hook?
(And, though I doubt this next idea will be the case, what would happen if the barefoot imprint in blood is NOT that of any of the suspects? What a corker that'd be! As with the unknown DNA on the swabs, which we hear no more of. Keep processing, Rome. Stuff to find.)
Actully, damian for us non-lawyers, which is all of us, it would not be obvious, though from reported sentences, it would SEEM to be the case within American jurisprudence. The judge in the Marion Jones case went to the MAX on the Official months-year range guidelines he had to work with. Though she pled to 2 charges of lieing, Jones managed to maintain in court that she really didn't know what she was being injected with. As she must have stated that in her own written pleading for probation, the judge specifically mentioned it and said he found it "most unlikely". If he'd been really pissed about this continued denial, so as to comment with "simply untruthful", he'd have gone OVER the max, on the basis of demonstrated "she ain't getting it Still".
There is an American academic scholar who is attempting to more precisely codify the meanings of words such as "aggravated", "heinous" [used as "noticeable indifference to suffering"], "depraved", etc which are already on the American law books in terms of severity of sentencing. [Google of course; he has a do-it-yourself test on the site.] Plucked from dictionaries, their meanings do vary from state to state, & also by type of crime.
What the Intrepid Trio did to Meredith DURING the assault would be "depraved" in some states or "aggravated" in others. The post-killing clean-up, ie attempt to deceive and since then no remorse no confession, would definitely be "aggravating" even in state of Washington and so worthy of seeking M1 with the Death Penalty there. Even in plea deals with agreed upon sentencing by both p & d, judges will use these words as "flags" to the parole boards years down the line, as in you really should address this & be statisfied before granting parole. To get less than 20 years plus, one of them is going to have to do a full mea culpa with sackcloth & ashes & finger-pointing.
I thought to make a comment about a bare footprint awhile back... I don't know why the idea came to me, but it did.
Perhaps it was made in the clean up process, by someone (my money is on Amanda) who thought that footprints weren't as easily traced as hand prints or shoe prints.
Very possible that she thought that, Luke. My guess is too, that she figured she could easily wash the blood off her bare feet, while completely removing all traces of blood from shoes would be much more difficult.
or maybe someone just didn't want to get their shoes dirty.
or maybe someone just didn't want to get their shoes dirty.
chris | 01.12.08 - 3:37 pm
Haha--If that was the case, RS would have taken off his sneakers! I think he's way ahead in the cleanliness department than our slovenly AK!
I do think that she was used to kicking off shoes and being barefoot at home though(even when she wasn't feeling homicidal).
or maybe someone just didn't want to get their shoes dirty.
chris | 01.12.08 - 3:37 pm
or maybe someone just had no problem with walking barefoot through someone else's blood.......
or maybe someone just had no problem with walking barefoot through someone else's blood.......
Luke | 01.12.08 - 3:54 pm
I think you hit on the most likely reason of all, Luke.
Thanks for enlightening me there Robert, very interesting. The reason I mentioned it was because the defence teams' tactics are confusing me. Wouldn't it have been in their clients' interests to remain silent, or is that as bad as telling various contradictory stories?
I guess this media circus complicates things too...
Damian--> Yes, it would have been in their best interests to remain silent, especially at the beginning, and once arraigned (taken into custody) an American lawyer would have prevented all the leaks on diary-writing, etc, even going so far as to get a gag order, which would have prevented the lawyers from being on TV, Dad S, too. But the dynamics of going to trial & the trial itself are clearly different there from here. First of all, no jury as in US/UK. Trying all 3 together would be unusual but not unheard of here. It seems par for the course there. Then there's all the official leaking going on, which is blatant (Van Zandt at the lab with new evidence for instance). But there are a lot more similiarities now as PRACTICES seem to have become more congruent over the Euro/Anglo world (& thats a very general comment by a non-lawyer).
But the great dissimiliarity (sp?) is that yes, it would be a M1 Death case in many states just on the face of it. And that being the case, its the LEVERAGE that a DA usually uses to get one of the defendants to split off for the assured lesser sentence. In other words, the threat of a death sentence or even a true Life w/o Parole is the bargaining chip a DA has to get most convictions through please as opposed to trials (& trials are costly!).
I see in yours that they say that MK died of 3 stab wounds. I assume that two of those were the more shallow cuts under her chin?--- Ann Arbor
Yes, I believe they are including the two shallow cuts when they mention the three stabs, and this points out a mistake I made in the translation. In Italian it was written "died WITH three stabs." I wrote the whole thing out in English with pen on paper, then typed from that paper. When I got to that part I thought it would sound better in English to say "from" instead of "with." But that kind of changed the meaning. It's more correct to say that she died with three stabs. She only died from the one, but she did have three when she died. Thanks for pointing it out and giving me the chance to correct it without seeming obsessive. One little word can cause misunderstanding!
Thanks so much Sparrow. Actually, your translation made much more sense than the Google version that I had originally. The Google version said in essence that MK died from the "wounds of three knives". I was surprised, because I know that its been speculated that there were two knives used that night--but three?! (Haha-I'm glad I didn't announce it as breaing news!!)
Anyway, that point, along with some other odd Google takes on the article, were cleared up for me with your translation. I meant NO criticism--quite the opposite. So, thanks again--Your translations are greatly appreciated.
annarbor/Sparrow
That might clear it up for me to. But my understanding of the fatal wound, was it went through the left side of meredith neck and punctured through the other side missing the main artery. If there were 2 minor stab wounds, and the one larger one that left an entrance and exit wound. But that would be three stab's leaving four wounds. Unless the fatal cut didn't go all the way throug?
DLW, You're right-- I guess I was thinking about the fatal, " through and through" wound as one. I think that since it was that thrust of the knife that caused her death, it is thought of as the (one) fatal wound. That's my take on it, although you are technically correct that the fatal stab caused two physical wounds.
DLW, the original article in Italian didn't say "stab wounds" it said "stabs." It looks like google translations can create confusion sometimes. But maybe it did the same thing I did (with the words "with" and "from") thinking it sounds better in English that way, but inadvertantly changing the meaning.
annarbor, I thanked you for your comment, and meant it. I didn't take your comment as criticism. It's good to have careful readers, so we can all be clear about everything.
Kermit, thanks for your earlier help. And you should learn Italian. It's a beautiful language. With your predilection for sorting and charts, you should have no problem with verb conjugation and multiple tenses.
Here's another fact for the timeline. Found it on a Seattle PI blog. Someone there got it from the show Matrix.
Raffaele turned his phone on at 6 am, the next morning, although he said he slept until 10 am.
Ciao tutti.
Got it, Sparrow. Thanks
annarbor/Sparrow thanks for clearing that up the stab (wounds) for me.
Rafflaele probably just reached out of bed at 6:00 to turn the cell phone on, and then went back to bed till 10:00.. And then I guess he got up 2 more times to buy bleach, before finally getting up at 10:00
Sparrow said: Here's another fact for the timeline ... Raffaele turned his phone on at 6 am, the next morning, although he said he slept until 10 am.
Sparrow | 01.12.08 - 7:19 pm |
Got it, Sparrow. More facts, more incongruencies with the alibis.
Luke and Anna said:or maybe someone just had no problem with walking barefoot through someone else's blood.......
Luke | 01.12.08 - 3:54 pm
I think you hit on the most likely reason of all, Luke.
annarbor | 01.12.08 - 3:57 pm |
As in, she actually enjoyed, "got off" on walking through the blood? Makes me queezy.
Goodnite!
My theory is they never went to bed that night . Doing cleanup and rearranging things at the flat that night. Returning to Raf’s place very early it the morning to shower, change cloths, and think about what to do next. One or both may have taken amphetamines or speed, to help them along. Then return to the flat to finish up.
There are so many holes in their timelines & alibis you could drive a truck through them. The more evidence to prove this, the better.
Interesting read.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3159584.ece
‘From the very start, investigators suspected a woman had been involved in the murder.’
‘Forensic expert confided that covering a corpse was a gesture of pity, more typical of a woman than a man.’
DLW, thank you, an interesting read indeed.
According to a source interviewed in the above Times article, AK's Seattle boyfriend's name is David Johnsrud. A google of that name leads to a link for the University of Washington (Seattle, WA) Classical Fencing Club - one of the officers of the club is a David Johnsrud. If that is her boyfriend, what an interesting coincidence that the 'men with swords/knives' theme was continued w RS.
http://depts.washington.edu/sao/...ail.php?
id=1129
http://students.washington.edu/cfuw/
( Note: the Times erroneously refers to "Seattle's Washington University". In fact, Washington University is in St Louis, Missouri. AK attended the University of Washington in Seattle, Washington, USA.)
ritualistic (conscious or unconscious) blood play
i've always thought blood-play was a part of it, and so has rob, right?, ritualistic play, maybe others too, loz? erotic, spiritual, positively ghastly, I know...key. we can all agree that this is going to get worse, right? as said recently, this is a grisly grisly bad bad thing.
that's a different name for the boyfriend than i heard before...hmmm...the more the merrier.
UW. The Huskies. A Pac-10/12 whatevah school. GO DOGS.
agree dlw, an all-nighter indeed.
thanks for translation and discussion on precision. reinforces "stab" not cut or slit. good stuff sparrow.
good to see more of you back...luke, jw, et al. HNY.
and...
(And, though I doubt this next idea will be the case, what would happen if the barefoot imprint in blood is NOT that of any of the suspects? What a corker that'd be! As with the unknown DNA on the swabs, which we hear no more of. Keep processing, Rome. Stuff to find.)
Robert M. | 01.12.08 - 2:20 pm | #
we have NOTICED that the giallo couple (the cotto-swabbies) hasn't come up in a while. Time for a little hit of one or the other now that Epiphany has passed. Next comes Lent.
Penitente time.
Man. What a bunch. NOT TALKING.
Are they honoring a blood oath? It's like they are *made* -- some sort of twisted honor. Not to mention, that this must be getting expensive. TWO MONTHS IN JAIL. Cold months. Figured Rudy was no wimp, but RS and AK have had me fooled. I thought they'd emit more vibes by now, if not idle chatter.
A couple of interesting bits from The Guardian:
Additionally, around 70 more test results that could reveal biological evidence in the house are still due to come in," said Edgardo Giobbi, a detective with the Rome serious crime squad.
If the investigation concludes this summer, investigators believe a year of court formalities and preliminary hearings could follow before the suspects finally face a jury as late as mid-2009
http://tinyurl.com/33rx7r
Very good read, Xin, the Sunday Times article.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle3159584.ece
Not a big issue, but there's a minor time-line inconsistency regarding MK's return to the cottage: not the when but how. This Sunday Times article - where the author refers to "police sources" and the investigation report - says she returned alone and from Sophie Purton's place (not Robyn Butterworth's).
This information contrasted with all reports until now referring to her being at Robyn's place, with Sophie there too, and to her accompanying Sophie Purton to SP's place then continuing alone.
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/
tol...icle2864713.ece
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/
...k_perugia.shtml
No big deal, but I think it underlines how we have to filter and be careful of journalistic errors even in "quality papers" (my intention isn't to enter into the "Broadsheet" debate).
xin,
I agree that the silence is really old at this point. I don't think that anyone will crack until he/she is confronted with absolute proof that cannot be denied away. If that happens (and I think it will, eventually), I think that person will refuse to go down alone, and will finally talk and talk and talk.
Hey, I know that lie detector tests cannot be used in Aerican courts because they are not completely reliable, but it might be a nice way to add some pressure to these three, I wonder if they are ever used in Italy.
-g'night
Nite, Anna. Another day starts here. Lie detectors aren't acceptable court evidence in Spain, probably not in Italy either.
have you seen this meredith kercher interactive relationships map & article. In the article they have AK at the centre or as the 'connector'.
http://www.muckety.com/Meredith-...r/
83824.muckety
here's the 'fresh' one or starting point of it, with MK in the middle instead.
http://www.muckety.com/Meredith-...r/
83824.muckety
(I know it's the same link but it worked for me).
XIN they invite ppl to add it to their blogs.
Just for the record, the local news corrected itself tonight. They said AK, RS and RG would be present at this proposed summit meeting.
Frank has translated part of RG's interrogation. (taken from matrix) That, and his comments are worth a read.
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
Thanks, damian for nudge to read Frank. I don't always check. Not the way you want too see an interrogation end with the interrogator asking about a misnamed street it seems.
A 7 hour interview and that's all that gets "leaked"??
"A Gip should judge the Pm and the Police, not the defendants. A Gip should be the counterpart of Pm. But in this case, once again, they go together. Pm says Patrick is the killer and the other ones the accomplices. And Gip confirms. Then Pm says oops, Police was wrong, let's just change Rudy for Patrick. And Gip confirms.
No good like this.
When do we finish with Pm and Gip working hand in hand? Berlusconi tried to stop this system. And they stopped him. They where right because Berlusconi's system had other defects and would have been a disaster. But the police-state continues. As well as judiciary mistakes.
The system is perfect. Theoretically. To have it working fine also in reality maybe could be enough setting Pm and Gip in different towns. While now they can even share an office...
We are talking of 2 boys and a girl here, barely major. Unexperienced people who should sing like canards at the first tinkling of handcuffs. And we are still at this point.
The only thing Rudy confessed, as far, is to have drunk juice from the bottle*.
What will be when they will have to nail some professional criminal?"
I beginning to believe Frank's thoughts. Italy's judicial and police systems suck and the bureaucrats running it are bobo's. This case has become an absurdity being tried in the media with no constraints, rather than through a true path to justice. The former EU minster Prodi, now Italy's top dude can't even get the garbage picked up in Naples! Yes, justice and social and legal dysfunction. 'We' will get to a trial in mid 2009 (not 200. As Annarbor says "patience, patience". I suggest foreigners bypass Italy as well as Aruba. Nuff!
"And why, when all three are so young has not one of them confessed? When young inexperienced persons not previously involved in crime (maybe not RG in this case) commit murder they are usually broken psychologically early under questioning. This group is quite unusual in sticking to their respective innocence amongst each."
coyotewaits | 01.10.08 - 8:22 pm
"We are talking of 2 boys and a girl here, barely major. Unexperienced people who should sing like canards at the first tinkling of handcuffs. And we are still at this point.
The only thing Rudy confessed, as far, is to have drunk juice from the bottle*.
What will be when they will have to nail some professional criminal?"
Frank from Perugia Shock | 01.13.08
Always wondered this myself. Why are these three suspects maintaining their innocence and incredulity at what has happened. Why no confession or deal making. It either has to be The "blood oath til' death" or could they be ............?
Some people at the Seattle PI blog are talking about rohypnol. If RS put this in the mushroom dish and didn't tell Amanda, this could be why she remembers only "dreams" and doesn't know if they are real. This could explain why she did what he told her to after the murder (if so), and continues to not give credible evidence. Perhaps MK took in a little rohypnol too. This could explain why RHG thinks she was agreeable with their sexual activities (if she was not).
In this scenario, either man could have given the drug, but it's hard for me to see them working together. So perhaps it was only one. Similar mushrooms to the one found in MK's esophagus were in RS' fridge. Could be a coincidence. Maybe the drug was administered in a drink, of which we do not know.
isn't Frank's comment too political? I don't see Matteini's ending to be "hysterical". Se asked him if he knew where the street was. He said he didn't. She ended.Stop
PS Garbage collecting has nothing to do with Kercher's murder.
to cw
I feel the same way,could they be...
hey mambrui, what you see political in frank's comment? that seems to me rather a technical critic. RG had to understand what he was quizzed about and in that way he probably couldn't.
Frank didn't say anything about garbage in Naples. He only spoke of the case.
cw - "Why no confession or deal making. It either has to be The "blood oath til' death" or could they be ............?"
--------------------
Sorry if I'm wrong - but if the missing word is 'innocent' - I'd have to disagree really strongly. I'm absolutely convinced they're involved - but no one wants to speak for fear of placing themselves in deeper crap. And while no one admits to anything - they can all remain in denial.
The one thing we DO know is that the murder was horrifically violent, gruesome and tortuous. At the moment, they are merely 'suspects'. . . but the moment one of them starts telling some semblance of the truth (if they know what that even means) - the HATE and the ANGER that will be directed at them will be enormous. I think Knox will come off the worst, maybe even likened to Myra Hindley of the Moors murders - 1) because she's female, and 2) rightly or wrongly, people are always more shocked when a woman is involved in a crime like this.
They're keeping quiet, because how can they ever begin to really 'explain' what happened without being on the 'worlds' most hated and reviled list? That will stick with them forever. They already know how the public has reacted. I just cannot see anyone owning up to anything, not even if the proof is put right in front of them.
They've disassociated themselves from the crime because they've seen the public reaction to the crime - and no one wants to be on the receiving end of the inevitable backlash that will ensue once the first confession is mouthed.
If they stay tight-lipped till the end, and found guilty of murder from the evidence - they'll be dragged off screaming they're innocent - and there are those who will wonder if they really are innocent - and so the seed of doubt is planted - and this might just help Knox if she ends up in prison for a long time.
I could be completely on the wrong track - but it's just my view, based on what we already 'know'.
-------------------------
I hate to admit it, Soozie, but I am afraid you are exactly right...
yes, well said Sooz, as usual, I agree.
I think that eventually one will talk.
you know, someone makes one an offer he can't refuse.
Xin, I don't think the PM can make an offer. The defendents' lawyers can advise their clients to cooperate however. (anyone better informed, feel free to correct)
OT. At the start of all this, I tried to give aa idea of the context in which this is being played out, and got in all kinds of trouble! The Italian Judiciary is in crisis and the situation has deteriorated over a period of some years. A sustained political attack on its autonomy, the introduction of a 'sunset' law (prescrizione) and a 'pardon' (indulto) have seriously damaged the effectiveness of the Judiciary. They have been involved in a 'battle' with the politicians for many years, have protested, have gone on strike...
http://tinyurl.com/24o8n6
Corriere 14 Jan 2008. '70% of trials are of 'ghosts' or concern offences covered by pardon'
Judges "We are useless" "prehistoric conditions"
http://tinyurl.com/33vtmb
Rainews jan2007. Here the current Minister of Justice, Mastella, claims it should be possible to conclude a trial within 5 years!!(just to give you an idea, this would be considered progress, good) He also says there is '..a real crisis of confidence between citizens and justice.' No shit. Here you can see him in New York last year, telling some citizens to 'fuck off'. When Italians talk about the caste system, his is one of the first names to come up.
http://tinyurl.com/2vrhf7
hi you all...
a quite good link, but... sorry... is in italian...
http://www.delittiimperfetti.com...hp?
id_vitt=1059
ciao
P.S. AK did it... now I'm sure...
im surprised nobody thunks the big a fits the profile of a sexual serial killer what with the violent rape fantasies and the dissociation she has shown following the stressors and crime.
there were no drugs in Meredith's body so no date rape drug scenario, not even for big a - her mental illness drives her behaviour.
i asked ages ago about the history of that old cottage. it is very peculiarily situated - and for pre-existing reasons.
the occult nature of the crime was influenced by the forces sited on and moving through the cottage land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Psy...Psychogeography
as Dorthy love Coates once sang 'There are Strange Things Happening Everyday'
believe it or not sayteth the Ripley's tag line.
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the killing times -the method to the madness
phase 1: Dissociative-Fantasy-Aura State
IMO THIS IS THE BIG A TO A TEE:
"fantasies accompanied by compulsive masturbation (big a's random unpersonal conquests), which conditions a link between fantasies and sexual urges...at some indeterminate point they cross the threshold where they no longer know or are aware of the difference between fantasy and reality. They are no longer cognizant that the thoughts they are having originated in fantasy: Reality and fantasy become merged and the person is said to be in a dissociative state.
The dissociative process can last anywhere from a few hours to a few months...."
i would like to read any thoughts or extrapolations on this if anybody is inclined. thanks.
.
sorry for weird italics above the tag didnt work orignal is at
rob | 01.11.08 - 7:54 pm
I've brought this up again to highlight the difference in perspective between US/Brit and the Italians. As the victim in this case is English, one of the accused is an American woman, the attention of the world's media is on Perugia, the horrific nature of the crime...it is being dealt with in an 'exemplary' way. (in the context) Let's not forget that this is an extremely complicated case, confounded by the lies and inscrutable silence of the suspects and that the gathering of the forensic evidence will take time.
(BTW the forensic team is from Rome and has been from the very beginning)
Unfortuanately, things in Italy tend to be slow, but that's just the way it is. If we are surprised that things work differently in different countries, then we are a bit provincial.
As I've said before, I think it would be better if there were no leaks and we discovered the truth at/after the trial. I don't think this media farce helps the course of justice and I don't think it is fair on the victim's family. The frustration that some feel about the 'lack' of leaks I thus find difficult to understand. The fact that some of the defense teams have opted for a very public defence may have some bearing on some of the leaks, others I find baffling.
The Kercher family will unfortunately have to wait a very long time to have somekind of closure.
damian thanks for the reminder on the political/social context. An independent judicial system, with demarcated lines of responsbility within, is such a "given" within US/UK beliefs (however it falls short in reality & it does indeed, especially locally--rural New York State county judges got exposed by NYT article last year, for instance), that to keep that "imagery" out of our head when looking in on another judicial system is hard. That rules & procedures combined with direct political attacks (the sunset law for instance), underfunding etc, have led to increased distrust of the people in the judiciary (separate from the police) is a great threat to all social cohesion. But the Italians, like the British in other contexts, muddle through. Making the courts run on time is less an issue for people in their dialy lives than making the trains run on time though its impact is more pervasive.
The real real danger is to the truly innocent caught in this time-warping experiencing. There are enough weird stories over here (lost paperwork especially re uncharged people being held) that if the US system is so fraught with it, then others must be so. That this case is getting as you say "exemplary" handling may lead to someone over there saying Hey if we can do that for this, how about for us?
The federal district court for Richmond VA is known as the Rocket Docket as the prosecutors and judges have developed an ethos of "most stuff is straightforward so let's get it done by Friday" -- the Michael Vick case being the high-profile example of this: crime discovery in April and plea agreement by September. In other federal districts, the preliminaries would still be going on. All state & local courts differ wildly in results.
Waiting on the 70 Lab tests.
rob. Yes, I too was struck by the geographical positioning of the house when looking at the wonderful pics Kermit has found and used. The road behind is a physical barrier separating the greensward below and to the right from the city proper up, above and to the left. Amanda at least had a proper appreciation of the view in her blog entry. And, yes, I'd like to know about that particular lots development: what was there before, when did these units get built (after the road?), etc. Local stories about why that area is "green".
Robert M. and Rob. ... what a coincidence: regarding the house, I am gathering some material about the exterior location and design of the house for what would be kind of an intro to the next PPT, about what went on inside of the house. I always get hung up on apparently minor issues (which are normally just that), like the throwing of the phones on the lady's lawn. My latest one is the screaming heard by the neighbours (followed by stomping on the metal stairs) - I'm convinced the screams can't be Meredith's because of the location and construction of the house. Got some material, will try and push it out over next weekend. This doesn't really cover where you-two are pointing to regarding the house, but there may be some visual material or observations which could contribute.
Regarding the location, the key fact is that the house is outside of the walled city (will get into that in the PPT) and always has been. The house would have been free standing in a sort of orchard (ie. the girls' parking area is land fill, you would have had to go up stairs to the current entrance, if that was a door in old-times). I have the impression that Via Sant'Antonio (the road that goes between the carpark and the girls house) is a fairly recent (40 years?) invention, and that it has simply asphalted what was there before, outside of the city wall: green terraces going up to the city wall / line of houses above carpark.
Regarding the construction, this seems to be a sort of orchard/farm house with a central oldest section (Filomena's room + living room + Laur's room + corresponding section of boys floor below) built of stone. I've been reviewing old photos and paintings, but the little material I encounter just misses the site of the house. However, there are similar houses (just the old central part) in photos from 1890 outside of the city walls. Found a similar house for sale, which is 200 years old. ((I'm no expert in this stuff, for all I know, the house is a prefab construction from the 1970's ... but I doubt it, on the basis of what I've seen)).
I had a dinner with friends a few years ago and there was an archaeologist present. He was looking for an Etruscan cemetry and I remember him saying that he was looking in that part of town...no idea if he ever found it though...
For those interested, the Etruscan arch at piazza Grimanna dates back to 400bc.
This discussion is really interesting. One thing that continues to perplex me about this case is AK's mutually exclusive assertions: that she doesn't remember (i.e. know) what happened that night BUT that she knows (i.e. remembers) she did not kill MK. Both of these statements cannot be true.
I think if all three are refusing to speak at this point, the most likely explanation is that all three were equally involved in stabbing MK, letting her die slowly while they panicked and worked out a plan, and working through the night (I doubt they slept) to cover up their involvement in the crime and make it look like a burglary gone bad.
I also think at some point one of them will begin to talk, and then there will be a period of incredible cacophany, flying recriminations, scrambling for the least horrendous roles in this sad tale, etc.
"The local news is reporting that the PM intends to go to England to talk to Meredith's friends and that somekind of summit meeting is being arranged for the '4' suspects."
damian | 01.12.08 - 1:41 pm
Does anyone know anything more about this so called "summit" with the four suspects? Besides Damian's comment (above) about it, I have seen one other reference to it in some media report that I can't relocate now, but no explanation as to what it is or what its purpose might be.
Could it just be another interview/interrogation of the suspects, but all together at once? Curious that PL remains a suspect at the level of the other three.
70 more items for analysis. Remember way back in early November when the media reported that the scientifica policia had gathered over 200 pieces of possible forensic materials. Excluding the body of MK and her clothes scattered by her body, duvet, etc. doesn't seem like many of the 200 have surfaced in the leaks. And that count was from the victims house only, not the subsequent searches at RS and RK's houses.
With that many items, it is understandable that 70 remain, DNA amplification, sequencing and comparison, microscopic analysis, blood typing, etc., is a slow and tedious process. And it has been barely more than two months and with many holidays interspersed. I am sure we can expect many more media reports of leaked information.
The one thing we DO know is that the murder was horrifically violent, gruesome and tortuous. At the moment, they are merely 'suspects'. . . but the moment one of them starts telling some semblance of the truth (if they know what that even means) - the HATE and the ANGER that will be directed at them will be enormous.
soozie UK | 01.13.08 - 9:47 pm
at some point one of them will begin to talk, and then there will be a period of incredible cacophany, flying recriminations, scrambling for the least horrendous roles in this sad tale, etc.
Skeptical Bystander | 01.14.08 - 1:54 pm
Put together, I think the statements from Soozie and Skeptical describe the way that this will likely play out.
Just as OJ's trial showed us, continued denial, proclamations of innocence, incomplete forensic evidence and a clever defense team can get a guilty person a not guilty verdict. Silence and denial can work.
If just one of these suspects is confronted with insurmountable, unassailable evidence though,he/she is likely to talk and start placing blame in every direction.
Until then though, they will remain silent.
Bystander, I agree with you. By far the most logical explanation of the suspects' silence is their complicity in this horrific crime.
cw, if you happened to miss my clarification, the local news corrected itself the following evening, and named the 3 suspects wanted for the proposed 'summit' meeting. More lazy journalism methinks. (I don't know why I put it up..still getting used to this internet communication thing maybe) And yes, they did give the impression that the PM wanted to interview them altogether.
..and what happened to you? I think you had it down two months ago; premeditated rape and murder, all three of them.
Kermit, Rob, Robert, for what it's worth. The other sides of hill-topped Perugia are much more built up. On a practical level, I think it's because the land there is less steep. The south-eastern part, outside the city walls, towards Ponte Rio, is much greener and less developed. There are small clusters of dwellings or 'isolated' houses, like AK's.
Yes annarbor, I agree... but help me out here, How does this work?. If the police get insurmountable evidence agaisnt suspect A first, and this suspect is advised to talk, will this be the suspect who pays the least? In the sense, does it depend on who the forensics nail first?(and consequently, who speaks first?). And this obviously depends on the fact the all three were involved and that they don't have enough already.
Bystander/Damian
Right now, they all seem to act like a deer caught in the bright lights. Too frozen or scared to say anything, other than they weren‘t involved. None of them are going anywhere in a hurry anyways. No opportunities for the guilty one(s) to create other heinous crimes. If AK & RS weren’t guilty, they needed a long time out anyways. I don’t think RHG is going to talk until he feels he has enough incentive. He (they) don’t have enough of a conscience to clear. The big squeeze is on, we will probably have to wait to when the glider dies down for them. If their is sufficient quality and quantity of evidence to convict AK/RS, then the least guilty may try to cop a deal. There already has been some minor finger pointing , e.g. ‘Amanda’ is a drugged up little tart‘.
I’m not confident right now that it will ever become a total free for all. But I’m more confident that some semblance of justice will be done.
The 3 or 4 suspect "summit": in Spain we have the judicial testimonial clarification process of the "careo" (cara=face, call it a face-off or face-to-face), where the investigating judge puts two or more accused and/or suspects/witnesses together, when their testimony is contradictory, and you see what comes out. Sometimes useful, sometimes not at all.
I see the current situation as a form of prisoners' dilemma--no pun intended. Right now, each suspect believes his/her best option is silence (denial) rather than cooperation (truth). Each one is hoping that there will not be enough evidence to convict him/her without a confession, and each is betting that none of the others will talk either. RS and AK are probably fantasizing, in their separate corners, that RHG will take the fall. The problem with this calculation is that I can see no reason why RHG would accept taking the fall if the two others were involved. If he begins to feel this might happen, he might be the first one to open up.
I imagine that both RS and AK have been told by their parents not to talk (indeed, in the conversation between AK and her parents that was overheard by the police, her father is said to have advised her to talk to no one), and so far both are doing what their parents say in exchange for their parents' ongoing belief in their innocence. AK's parents have even hired a PR advisor, according the the Times article that appeared yesterday. RS's father thinks that he is fully capable of playing this role without the help of outside professionals, and is multiplying television appearances.
damian thanks for clarification on the landscape issues, i.e. that area always being outside the old walls. And being outside the walls is always where "lawless" stuff happened. Likely the core house is over 200 years per Kermit's 1890 view. (Jeez, Kermit, where & how are you digging things up from?) If over 200, there's been a lot of living & dying going on there. Odds of Something Else Happening there would be high. Still, friends of mine in Shirley MA live in a house that's core is pre-1750 and was the area midwife's house for decades after. Births & births & deaths etc. They experience nothing and the two largish dogs are A-OK with living there.
Replying to damian re "How does this work?".
Well in the US, the prosecuting DA would almost NEVER have all 3 suspects in a room together. Because they would never answer questions, exercising their "Miranda" rights under US Constitution 5th Amendment. A DA would have such a meeting only to layout points of evidence and to spell out consequences, issuing the cliche "train is leaving the station, last one to jump for the rear platform loses." But this is usually done by DAs on a one to one basis, because they've figured out who they want to prosecute more severely. US TV shows such as CSI Miami show such meetings for dramatic story wrap-up purposes. So while a dramatic cliche, nonetheless such meetings are actual daily occurrences in legal venues across the US. Sometimes, the defense lawyers ask for such meetings and the DAs just say, Sorry no deal we want a total conviction or such & such a plea.
In the Italian system, the Presiding Magistrate, with judge-like powers, is functionally the equivalent of a District Attorney. And as Kermit points out Spain's got a similar procedure, so this must be part of the so-called Napleonic code shared by many Euro states. Nonetheless, under the operating Euro Human Rights Convention, the defendants have the right to remain silent, to decline to answer the PM's questions, no matter how many they are or how long he/she takes to ask them. Amanda did indeed do just this at her second PM meeting but only after reasserting her original version. Newstories noted she had the right to do so.
So the PM calls all three to joint meeting, starts to ask questions about evidence and conflciting story points and all 3 go on to decline to respond. So what gets accomplished? Well, I'd assume that the PM would then spell out the consequences of being convicted on M1. Its been reproted that such a sentence could run 20 to 30 years (but I have no link). I'm assuming that the actual sentence would be for 30 years with no possibility of parole until 20 years served. Now 30 years isn't the US death penalty but its still a life-killing sentence, and 20 years is quite bad enough. And all 3 now know what spending 2+ decades in Capanne Prison would be like. And all 3 know this without having a "summit" meeting.
If I was the PM, I'd wait until all tests are run, a revised detailed timeline is created and a overall theory of how it went down is revised with those results included. THEN, I'd invite in the lawyers and the parents but separately. Involving the parents may not be something ILE does regularly, but I think its quite crucial to get Amanda to cop a plea; this is where her father's bottom-line business experience can get used by ILE to get her to flip. His goal would be a 10 year sentence to be served back in the states, while the PM's is to finally get one to flip on the others especially to ID the actual knife-thruster.
Yet somehow I doubt this is how it'll go down. Part of me thinks that, once together in the same room, their "pact" will just be reinforced. They'll continue to deny. And yet, if say R & A were actually confirmed to be in his room all night, there is quite enough evidence to get Rudy convicted for M1 right now. Both coyote & I went on about denial on the original thread, and as Bystander has pointed out, the parents have reinforced that for obvious reasons. Which is why I expect it'll be one of the parents that helps crack the logjam. After more lab evidence comes in, such as that the Bare Footprint is indeed Amanda's and the what has outlined it is indeed human blood. I just can not imagine that Amanda's father is in denial as deep as his daughter's. He just wants her home in some fashion. As would I.
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Damian, Sorry. I wasn't ignoring your question, but just getting home from work and checking back now. I guess the way that I see it, is that when the results from the 70 or so pieces biological evidence come in, there will hopefully be forensics that will make it all but impossible for at least one of the subjects (maybe more) to deny that they were there and participated in some way. I dont know enough about the Italian system to know whether a "deal " would be offered in exchange for testimony, but I believe that all three had enough of a role in the assault/murder, that they do not dare to talk about the others for fear of being outed themselves--they are all guilty and all depend on the silence of the others. I also do not believe that any of these 3 will go down alone. I agree with Skeptical Bystander that these three are unscrupulos, self serving cowards, and that each one, if cornered, will do their best to minimize their role, while pointing to the others as the catalysts/perpatrators/main player(s).
I noticed that when either RS or AK from jail pointed the finger at the other as possibly being involved ("Perhaps Rafe raped and murdered her while I slept"), the other responded in kind("Perhaps Amanda gave my kitchen knife to the murderer..."). I felt that AK's drawing of hills and clouds etc, was a pointed reminder to RS that if they are to walk outdoors (freely) again, then they must continue the pact of silence.
Its funny, but for soome reason , I agree with Sparrow that the only one of the three that actually feels remorse is Rudy. His statements aout his inability to sleep becausee of the recurring, horrifying images, seem genuine. But he too is keeping the silence. And, he did go dancing after, for God's sake...But perhaps he will be the first to talk. Geeeez, who knows.
somebody brought up the *prisoner's dilemma* months ago.
i think PL is still involved due to phone play. he may have been part or facilitator for the/a drug deal, so they need to keep him on the hook.
i think rudy has said pretty much what he is going to say.
who knows who will break. if rafe is not the murderer it should have been him, but he and amanda are in it together..both inflicted stab wounds imo, so one will need to turn on the other. but since they are both guilty...we got a stand-off till more evidence comes in...like the computer.
i always thought that house looked sort of like an out-building to a larger home/estate that is now gone. just bythe look. why build that little house on such a nice big lot, which was/is probably owned as one parcel..the house is like a groundskeeper home, in-law unit or some kind of guest accommodation as part of a larger compound.
Xin, I have a friend with whom I discuss this case. He always thought RS was the one responsible. He has known many a "mama's boy" and the way they operate. Daddy's boys are no different. He also thinks PL is involved in a similar way as you do. I have thought PL knows more than he says, simply because he is such a networker/facilitator in town, and a bar owner, so no doubt knowing all walks of life in Perugia. I also thought his quick, public forgiveness of Amanda was curious. I can't forget that he was told to leave Amanda alone in his own bar, and he had to back down. And that he was afraid of firing her. But maybe a Black man in Italy has to back down to any Italian who asserts their dominance? I don't know. It would be nice to hear from some Italians, what they think about this.
About the cottage. Since it is just outside the city wall, I wonder if it, and the other structures around it, are a cluster of guardhouses. Maybe they housed the first line of defense when the city was under seige.
ha! sparrow, same...my friend had RS spotted right off. she's an MSW, expert witness in court (bay area, plenty sickies), adolescent mental health. she thought amanda was sort of wild/ordinary until she ran into him, far far away from home. she also says crack,meth, drug component and NOT hash or pot..
Xin,
I see... my friend is a mathematician/musician, all around smart guy. Anyway, I brought him up because he's the one who convinced me of Raf's central role, so if you both agree about Patrick, I must go along.
He thinks Raf is controlling Amanda, rather than the other way around. He has her hooked somehow.
Someone on the SeattlePI blog had something interesting to say regarding that. One of the things Amanda remembered was that they took a shower together that night. He cleaned her ears and combed her hair. When I first read her description, I thought "Yuck" too much detail. But the commenter pointed out that this was how Raf made sure to clean all the evidence off of Amanda. Later Raf was kind of virulent in denying that they showered that night. He said he didn't know why Amanda said it, because they showered together on another night, not that one. I think we must believe Amanda in this case.
Can you imagine when Raf read Amanda's description of their shower? He remembered exactly what he was doing; cleaning up evidence. Therefore he quickly denied it.
Sorry, I read the previous posts and did not notice any mention of prsoners' dilemma. It is just something that came to me today.
Showers are a significant and recurring phenomenon in this case. I saw the blog entry on the Seattle PI blog. One of the few interesting ones, really.
In addition, showers are a forbidden topic on that blog, for some reason. Can anyone tell me if AK did or did not take a shower the following morning before allegedly returning to RS's apartment? I have read conflicting accounts of this. In some accounts, the door was open when she arrived. In some, she noticed blood but thought nothing of it and took a shower. What's the deal?
Okay, I've been sitting on this for awhile. It's a small detail, which we can't prove or disprove, and it may not even be significant. It's about the two small knife wounds under the chin. We can't see them, so we can only speculate. It always seemed to me that these two could have been made in a way of first gaining control of Meredith. An expert with a knife would know how to quickly put the knife right under someone's chin, pushing up just enough so the person would freeze, for fear of being fully stabbed. This kind of move would occur facing the victim, and at a little less than arm's length away. Just another thought.
Skeptical Bystander, I believe both versions you cite are consistent with AK's account. She says she found the door open, but she also took a shower.
Am I the only one who finds it odd that someone would find the door open, no one home and take a shower, noticing blood?
Maybe I just saw Psycho too many times, but it seems odd.
Also, if I remember RS had an earlier version where they kicked the front door in, I think, or was it MK's door? Hard to keep the stories straight.
Good catch Sparrow, I too always felt there was something in the way she described the shower...like it was a cherished memory of the whole experience.
Sparrow, re the two wounds. Yes, I agree. I think the original motive may have been to scare MK, but things got out of hand.
"..and what happened to you? I think you had it down two months ago; premeditated rape and murder, all three of them."
damian | 01.14.08 - 5:02 pm "
Damian, That was my theory back in November around the 18th - 20th base mostly on the PM's filing with the judge. And stayed that way going into December including it was RG whom they were looking for. But then forensic evidence that was being announced all fell on RG and AK not RS. And the evidence announced against AK was a couple drops of blood on the bathroom tap and a cotton swab (Q tip?). That was too weak of evidence for someone who lived at the flat and used on a daily basis the same bathroom as the victim.
Thus, my conclusions shifted with the evidence. RG alone did it (Pincone's theory). And that RS was never there. Trainer print was now challenged by defense. Now we have evidence reported that RS DNA found on MK bra and it was cut with a knife. And surely there is more to come on the forensics analysis. If the PM can place each at the crime scene at the time of the crime (the time is crucial for AK) and in MK bedroom (crucial for RS) then I go back to that original theory.
SB: I recall that he kicked in the door with the police present. too bad they didn't remember that ak had the keys, and that later the keys were found on the desk in amanda's room as i recall. kicking the door in was a major fuck-up since it was known that ak had the keys to feed the cats downstairs while mez was away..but another detail that could be dismissed in the confusion, i suppose.
the shower was so weird, going by all the weird conditions and jumping into the shower... good shower stuff in the original thread.
good to bring prisoners dilemma again too---because it relates even more as time goes on...these two are going to go down together perhaps.
we don't know enough about the other two wounds and we do not know about wounds, scrapes, etc on ak and rs, although i think rs was in some sort of covering him all up outfit, maybe with gloves...
they do combine to sort of make a street thug rapist kind of normal, eh?
Coyote Waits, you steal ideas you read here from others and claim them as your own. Twice you have ruled the case closed. Since you recycle everything you read you can recall predicting everything. "Shifting" with the evidence is a generous word choice. You have fans who show up only when you are here never to be seen again. Several posters here have got your number. Pompous windbag.
Why? Because of what I have said all along in December. ILE have needed solid hard forensic evidence that RS and AK were there in the house at the time. A trainer shoe print and two drops of blood not enough. But now we are finally getting more. The piece of bra is so critical. I hope they find more.
Now put this hard evidence with the circumstantial of which there is so much of (e.g., cell phones going off simultaneously, PC downloading or not, bleach containers, knife from RS possibly being murder weapon, AK's cell phone calls to RG, etc.,) the PM has a case which even I as a juror or judge would find credible beyond a reasonable doubt.
This all means premeditated (which I also thought early on). And if premeditated, rather than some angry confrontation or attempted sex game and refusal by MK, then I go with the others here who say RS is the real instigator, planner, creep, mentally off person who convinced AK to play and needed a third to blame which AK provided through her connector status with RG. RG is a fall guy as I thought then. And in a way maybe AK is a fall girl too.
All depends on whether ILE finds AK DNA evidence in MK's room that is directly connected to MK body and clothes. The knife is not enough because she used it at RS house. It now points to RS using it rather than AK and it being the only knife. And it points to other speculation the ILE have leaked.
If they do not find evidence AK was in that room then she can claim she was in the kitchen hearing screams and only helped in the cleanup, an accessory charge. We will have to see as the remaining evidence in processed.
In conclusion, RS appears to me by background data, knife, sword and violent comic book collections, and surfing analysis yet to be done on his computer, his web site searches, his blog etc., that he has all the skills (or though he did) to pull off a extreme experience (murder/rape) if he had some cooperation. It so we may final have a motive (RS's) to work over.
Agreed with RobertM, that at this point AK has nothing to gain by confessing anything and that her father has taken control (there was so little coverage on this and now I understand why) and she will remain silent until the evidence is all in. Prepare for a continuing thread here for a long time.
Coyote Waits, you steal ideas you read here from others and claim them as your own. Twice you have ruled the case closed. Since you recycle everything you read you can recall predicting everything. "Shifting" with the evidence is a generous word choice. You have fans who show up only when you are here never to be seen again. Several posters here have got your number. Pompous windbag.
xin | 01.15.08 - 2:43 am
Please stop it. Just do it. Stop.
xin | 12.21.07 - 3:31 am
You just can't let go of flaming and bashing others, can you xin, when you feel you have been insulted, of which you weren't. I stand by every post I have made here and the time stamp I made it. And most of posts credited all the others for my conclusions (especially the earliest ones, but instead you focused on my credits as medals instead of the names) and opinions including yours. So what bug to you still have in your amygdala that causes you to maintain your anger at me and flame me. Your problem not mine.
As to your covert implications that 'my fans' are sock puppets, I suggest you file your complaint with Steve Huff, as he can verify my IP and user ID. If you are going to complain, complain with facts and evidence, not innuendo and false accusations. Your true colors showing. Nuff
Famous quote from Xin:
"Please stop it. Just do it. Stop."
xin | 12.21.07 - 3:31 am
Suggest you follow your own request, xin, and "Stop it". Please, just let your anger go.
the big a cannot confess because she is in a dissociative state and does not know the difference between fantasy and reality. the boyfriend has always been playing a game in this (remember the stupid cops remark).
i suggest forgetting the high-tech forensics for a minute and thinking of the older mores of murder investigation:
* most victims know their killers
* killers return to the scene of crime
* persons found at scene of crime are primary suspects
* persons inserting themselves into investigations are likely suspects
there are more mores but they escape me now
the italians knew immediately that more than 1 perp was involved because of the multiple signatures and the organized/disorganized mixture at the scene.
the undergarments were obviously staged to be seen when first entering the room. they would not have fallen where they did. i would not be surprised to learn that the vampires dna was planted in the victim - dont get me wrong, i am sure he supped his hematomanic desire but was setup for the thing.
i appreciate the feedback on the psychogeography angle i posed. there is more to it - i guess you could say a strong vibe to areas that affects people. i must go but will relate some experiences with this later.
.
One of the local rags claims to have somekind of scoop this morning, but it's full of 'maybe's' and 'could have's'. I'll wait to see if any other papers go with it.
They also report that RS's team claim that their client's dna was found on the metal clasp of the bra and that it's an 'extremely small' 'residue' (sample?). They claim its presence can be explained by contamination. Il Giornale dell'Umbria.
(OT.geography people, I had north/south confusion last night, but it's more east anyway, sorry...probably down to the wine, the thick fog and poor schooling.)
i would not be surprised to learn that the vampires dna was planted in the victim--- rob
I'm glad someone else said it. I dared only imply it long ago.
The house/crime scene was "part of a 17th century palazzo", according to a Newsweek article:
http://www.newsweek.com/
related....eredith+Kercher
Maybe our Italian correspondents, or our Spanish researcher can find more information.
RAI news just showed footage of AK's mother and step-father arriving at the prison this morning with a troupe of journalists from ABC (or maybe NBC?). They said that this confirmed the rumours that they had done an interview with the couple and were making somekind of exclusive documentary.
Thanks for the info damian.
Exactly what we love to hear more singing by the caged canary!
Re Damian's previous post: This gig was probably arranged through the PR advisor the Knox family has hired. I bet the Dateline interview with supportive friends was also part of that effort, poorly but probably deliberately timed to coincide with MK's funeral.
Also, re cw's claim that Knox could claim she did not participate in the murder itself if her DNA is not found in the room, and say she stayed in the kitchen. I believe Italy has a Good Samaritan law similar to the one in France (non assistance à personne(s) en danger). If so, she could also be charged with that in addition to being an accessory after the fact and impeding the investigation by lying to investigators. Of, this assumes that her DNA is not found in the room and that she steadfastly maintains she played no role in the actual killing. But to be credible here, she'll have to start "remembering."
But to be credible here, she'll have to start "remembering."
Skeptical Bystander | 01.15.08 - 10:57 am |
----------------------------
Trouble is she's cried 'wolf' too often. And each conflicting version of her truth is 'the truth'. . .
I think it's too late in the day for her to 'recover' her memory and retain any credibility whatsoever.
She's chosen to 'remember' only what could absolve her - and strangely enough, only what could incriminate others.
Remember how she was 100% sure that she DIDN'T kill Meredith - but she WASN'T 100% sure she was even in the house at the time?
Oh yes, let's not forget that at first she said she WAS in the house - because she 'heard' thuds from the bedroom where Lumumba was allegedly killing Meredith!
Who will believe anything she says? She has no conscience (no problem accusing Lumumba of the crime!!) - and no scruples. I'd say she's a lost cause and won't help the enquiry at all because she's a compulsive pathological liar, and as such, can never be deemed a 'credible' witness in my opinion.
**************************
Soozie,
I agree with you that AK is not a credible party at this point. If, as some of her more strident defenders claim, she made conflicting statements under duress, why did she not clear all that up at the subsequent six-hour hearing during which she was, as she said beforehand, "prepared to tell the truth." If she was, as she suggested "hit on the head" by the police and so forced to make a false confession and implicate PL, why did she not say this when the judge asked her point blank why she had falsely accused PL? And so on. I think she knows exactly what happened that night, where she was and who did what, but is hoping that if she covers her ears it and closes her eyes it will all just go away.
SB,
I have to say I agree with you. I'm also of the mind that why she didn't come out with the truth she was so prepared to tell is because the judge/court let her in on something we haven't been told yet, so she knew that her current story wouldn't hold water. Then again, I could be wrong...
If she was, as she suggested "hit on the head" by the police and so forced to make a false confession and implicate PL, why did she not say this when the judge asked her point blank why she had falsely accused PL? Skeptical Bystander | 01.15.08 - 11:45 am |
------------------------------
Exactly! Why didn't she mention this to the judge? Probably because the 'bang' to the head caused even more memory loss!!!!!
Personally, I don't think they hit her on the head hard enough!
---------------------------
punch and judy.
it would be really useful to have haloscan display the ip of posters to get the real low down nitty gritty on the bogusness that do abound around some of these posters with near identical grammatical contructive stylees.
what a waste of effort...
try this people to locate IP's :
http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocato...htm?
GetLocation
.
punch and judy. What are you talking about? Which posts are you referring to? "The bogusness that do abound?" Now there's a grammatical style for you!
humour is lost on some.
.
Punch and Judy. Puppet show, wasn't it? (Also in a song by Marillion, in the Fish era)
Yes, I get the reference but not the humour. Excuse me, I'm a little thick when it comes to heavy sarcasm. What exactly are you trying to say, Rob?
Anyway, Rob, your comment about going back to some of the more old-fashioned ideas about victims and killers is really interesting. If there is a little truth in all of the statements made so far by the 3 suspects, maybe RHG was not lying when he said the killers told him he would be blamed because he is black. Maybe he did foist himself of MK sexually but did not actually kill her. After he fled, the killers staged the scene, confident that his DNA and fingerprints would be found there. This fits a lot of the ensuing behavioral facts, too.
This is with reference to Damian's post above, about the RAI report on Knox's parents visiting Capanne prison today.
Someone has posted this link on Frank's blog:
http://www.agi.it/perugia/notizi...012293-
art.html
It's quite short. Based on my less than perfect understanding... AGI are comparing the earlier reticence of the parents with today's appearance, reminding readers of the hearing due on the 21st (about the computers) and saying that there's still no word on the remaining forensics, or the recall of witnesses.
Curious still about this so called planned summit meeting between the PM, Judge and three suspects. Anyone know the proposed date of this procession. This will be the first time all three suspects see one another since the evening of the crime; for RG Nov 1 and for RS & AK the detention (arrest) (along with PL) on or about Nov 7 following AK's second statement to ILE implicating PL. My question or implication is as follows:
RG while in detention in Germany informs lawyers that he was there at the house but did not commit the murder, was in the loo taking his famous shit and upon hearing MK scream ran out, encountered the killer, an Italian with knife, so on and so forth. But that he can identify this Italian with brown hair and wishes to return to Perugia to do so.
But after extradition back to Perugia and his first interrogation/interview he then says paraphrasing "well I am not sure I can identify the killer, he attacked me with a knife, I had a chair to defend myself, I did not get a good look, he cut my hand.
Many here and I am sure in the media wondered did the ILE show him pictures of RS in a sort of US style lineup/suspect review and ask him if he recognized anyone as being the killer who threatened him? I may be wrong, but I thought I remembered this picture IDing by ILE to RG never happened or was inconclusive as so many factors are in this case as reported.
Bottom line of this post. This will be the first time these three suspects see one another again, assuming as most do here that they were all there at the time of the murder. Would not most here love to be a fly on the wall with a micro web cam at such a "summit" hearing (sorry you will have to wait for a leak by a cleak [court clerk]. Will RG suddenly see RS and say, that is the killer? Will RS look at his feet and say nothing but thanks form letting him finish hie thesis? Will AK look at RS and start crying? Your guess as good as mine, but I ain't guessing.
If this summit really happens my odds are only on the RG side and it is 10:1 (90%) chance that he does not ID RS, but in fact doesn't remember.
"One of the local rags claims to have somekind of scoop this morning, but it's full of 'maybe's' and 'could have's'. I'll wait to see if any other papers go with it. They also report that RS's team claim that their client's dna was found on the metal clasp of the bra and that it's an 'extremely small' 'residue' (sample?). They claim its presence can be explained by contamination. Il Giornale dell'Umbria."
damian | 01.15.08 - 5:37 am
Thanks for the report damian. This is typical and understandable by a defense team and may be factual or maybe just a test of the waters. If the cellular sample is small 10-15 human cells or less, DNA analysis will require amplification. When the analysis is amplified so the DNA can be sequenced all the other organic DNA in the same sample is amplified also (e.g., MK own DNA from reaching behind and fixing the clasp when she put her bra on.)
It is not possible to separate such amplified DNA samples unless a multiplex-STR, or Y-chromosome autosomal STR profiling is used, i.e., find a male chromosone, amongst all DNA, amplify it and type it; or use a LCN procedure (google these technical terms please). Defense knows that this is required and is playing it up in the media.
My guess is the Rome forensic team knows what they are doing and would not risk announcing or leaking such a result without knowing they have a qualified amplified Y-STR sample. I would lean to believe the RS defense is PR damage control. I would guess that the defense argument here is about contamination that the lab some how mixed RS's DNA from other evidence samples in the lab, which will never happen given proper sample gathering at the crime scene and laboratory analysis procedures.
The only real chance of DNA contamination is in the fact that after amplification of the sample there is not a sufficient differentiation from sequencing to identify a true Y chromosone (RS's or any other male).
I would lean to the RS team being in full damage control right now. But still waiting for the other 70 items of evidence to be processed and announced.
Out of 70 items left they can't possibly all be the kind of the "hair in the fist of MK to be analyzed" that just disappears from the leak to media format. Yes?
to anyone who might wish clarification "cw" is the same as "coyotewaits". Many who have responded to my posts started using the abbreviation 'cw' to refer to my posts as a shortcut to typing out the ridiculously long coyotewaits. I sympathize with them, so I shortened my own poster moniker as 'cw'.
For those few who might care c.o.y.o.t.e. is an acronym that defines my political and ethical views of the post modern western world and respected pre-modern world of todays nation states as a form of human identity and social organization. The "waits" is my attempt to temper my own angst of impatience for this world to change for the 'good' of all of nature's creatures not just the rather weird mammals known as homo-sapiens.
Coyotewaits, (just ask)
A word of warning. A tabloid paper has just published (online) two photographs which it says have been released by the police, and are reported to be from the Perugia flat, but details are slight.
My gut reaction is that this release is tasteless and cruel. There are some pieces of evidence that should stay in the court room. Feel ashamed to have seen them, and think I'll wait until the court's in session before paying attention to this case again. That's not a criticism of anyone here at ALL. I've found this comments board to be fascinating - especially on the legal issues - and really like reading your posts here. Just can't help thinking what if that was my daughter's room and feel (obscurely, perhaps) that I'm doing something wrong. I'll return, I hope, when the trial takes place. Best regards,
Viv - (if you come back to read the posts) I haven't seen the pictures you refer to. But I DID see the photocopied one ages ago of Meredith lying dead on the floor. I opened the paper one morning and there it was. Quite chilling. No need to wonder how her family felt seeing her lying dead on the floor. . .
Hope to see you back here though. I always find your posts sensitive and well written.
----------------------
I think I've seen the photos of which Viv writes. In view of the photo of the bathroom, Amanda's statement that she thought maybe one of her roommates might have had a problem with her period is beyond absurd. It always sounded absurd, but it is in the stratosphere. One wonders why the police didn't arrest her... oh yes, they wanted to monitor her. I hope they got enough to convict.
My gut reaction is that this release is tasteless and cruel. There are some pieces of evidence that should stay in the court room--Viv 01.15.08 -8:22 pm
I had also seen those pictures,Viv, and know the photo that soozie refers to also...Her brother slammed the press for running it. These must be incredibly painful for her friends and family and are used by the tabloids in such a sensational, lurid way.
Does anyone understand why the police would release any of these horrifying photos to the press?
I have been wondering about the leaks that I believe have been selectively released by the investigators since the murder, and feel that the police have their own PR agenda. If the leaks are accurate, its certainly not a hard sell to make us all despise the suspects. And yet, does it really matter what the public thinks of these three? Is it important that the public believes they are guilty? Or am I wrong--are the leaks and photos just someone in the LE making money off of the hungry tabloids?
Not that this kind of thing doesn't happen elsewhere, but the odd defensiveness and denial coming out of Seattle might have to do with them not wanting to face the truth about the culture, in particular around UW.
http://blogs.king5.com/
citizenra...elp_beaten.html
Hey rob:
re: to get the real low down nitty gritty on the bogusness that do abound around some of these posters with near identical grammatical contructive stylees.
but, my friend, some of us don't need that do we? it is so f'ing OBVIOUS who doesn't have an original thought in their head. not to mention *timing* issues.
**
and sparrow, seattle is different that way, insular, kind of xenophobic. i've checked it out with friends up there--very provincial plus widely known as having a TERRIBLE newspaper. thinking about going up there this weekend or soon after; i am in portland right now and it's just a 3 hour drive north and pretty beautiful, as long as there is some visibility (!). have connected friends up there,so far,unaware of my *interest*.
where are the photos? what tabs? if passers by see them, then I want to see them too.
thanks.
thanks damian for heads up on "news" special with AK parents.
be interesting to see who's producing it and if it is news or feature and whether or not they are desperate yet for money. the PR in me guesses: ye$, and feature, and in this context they can wheel and deal about what questions can and cannot be asked, etc.
AnnA: it's about money and politics.
Xin,
Two new photos, beware:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/
home...ticle692368.ece
testing image posting
my gawd, all this blood seen in these gruesome photos and they only have two drops of AK's blood mixed in with all that blood. Think a moment about that!
Just a moment, otherwise your head might crash! Why only two drops? What other DNA mixture is in all this blood? Think a moment about that also. Of course, you do not want too. But now I really ask, what "clean up".
The photo’s are gruesome. I can’t imagine Amanda taking a shower in that mess in the bathroom. There has been a hint of speculation that the bathroom photo may have somehow been digitally enhanced?? We will see.
WTF is that, the pillow with RG's print on it that was reported to be underneath MK, or is that another f___ing pillow. How are you going to process these kind of images with a clear conscience without having a biased position as a juror. Not the USA way, but perhaps the Italian way.
Obviously there was no clean up, or there was a clean up? Really? I challenge all to think about these photos.
Go ILE, Go PM, Go Italian justice, let's have it out. What is this about a trial date for mid summer 2009. Just the fuck get on with it and lets have some trial this late summer 2008. Bobos!
Even I am emotional now!
The cleanup was in AK's room, and living area. We already knew there was blood in at least one the bathroom. AK and RS pointed it out to the Postal Police. This is nothing new, only the sight of it is more than we expected, considering AK's "menstrual problem" suggestion.
DLW, I agree. The bathroom photo does not look right.
Blood does not dry pink. Refer to blood in the previous photo. It is almost black. The stuff in the bahroom reminds me of the liquid gel my kids get on Halloween to use as fake blood. Hmmmmm.... Meredith used fake blood the night before as part of her vampire costume.
I thought the blood in the bathroom was probably diluted with water. Picture that Rudy has blood all over his hands, maybe arms and shirt. He needs to wash his hands in the sink before he leaves. He's a bit panicky and splashing around as he tries to scrub clean. The water/blood mixture ends up all around the basin and the wall in front. The rest, maybe occurs in a similar way as he moves about the bathroom. Maybe.
Sparrow, commenting on your speculation of the throat cuts to MK. I have not seen or heard definitively
an exact description of the cuts. In looking at the picture of the bra it looks like possibly she was cut from one side to the other with no frontal wound. Notice only the bra straps are coated with blood and no blood on the front of the bra.
Mare, there were two small cuts under her chin, if I recall correctly. And like you I haven't heard much about them. I was just speculating, because I had this picture in my head.
The only thing I wanted to say about those two other wounds, which I imagined may have been superficial, was that they could have been made in the way I described, from the front, as the initial way of gaining control. The wound that killed, most agree it was probably made with the killer standing behind her. I am not disputing that. No doubt the blood on the bra came from the wound on the side of the neck, as you say.
'new' traces of blood found on the floor outside Meredith's room according to local rag.
http://tinyurl.com/2m4vzo
OMG those are terrible photos. (After finishing this post, reviewing attached snaps, I'll modify that: OMG, that bedroom snap is a terrible photo, but the bathroom photo is just a bathroom with a ton of ILE fluid all over) ...
I've compared The Sun's photos with the images we have already. The bedroom scene has been altered, perhaps as some sort of reconstruction. If you go back to my most recent powerpoint about the cut bra strap, in the first, overall crimescene photo that we've seen in the past (and which I tried to overlay with some colour from one of the TV programs), the lateral sliding wardrobe doors are ON, not taken off. Also, no pillow in the wardrobe (that is under the corpse, which is under the duvet). Also no chair in front of the wardrobe. If you reajust the objects due to ILE reconstruction in The Sun's bedroom photo, all the blood on the floor in The Sun's photo (dark crimson) could be in the other photo, given the duvet and other things on the floor, which could hide the blood from view.
As for AK's bathroom photo, the NOT dark crimson, more pink colour to The Sun's "bloodbath", must be forensic liquid. Compare The Sun's bathroom photo to the images we've had available in the past through Italian TV (Matrix, Porta, etc.), which I'm attaching.
((I'm not hording these screenshots, they're from the programs, I just need to sort them... these ones I was going to work on this weekend, after getting out the small presentation I'm working on now, about the exterior and geographic location of the girls' house))
Colour Crime Scene 1 - doors on wardrobe, no chair, no pillow in wardrobe:
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net.../
760e4e8689.jpg
Colour Crime Scene 2 - idem, I now realise Item "L" is crimson blood on floor
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net.../
91fa902e4b.jpg
Pillow in original location on floor
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net.../
6c79d89e05.jpg
Tap/faucet in AK's and victim's bathroom (my imagination says that's the "mixed" blood stain on the middle of the spout)
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net.../
e0ece76dce.jpg
Initially, visually "clean" toilet and bidet (as compared to The Sun's "Bloodbath")
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net.../
8d49ea00b0.jpg
Oops, pang of regret ... in my haste to push out these snaps, I didn't grey out the victim's foot there in the Porta screen shoot. I really don't like to personalise my analysis too much (I prefer grey to skin, "victim" to her name, at least in going over scenarios and analysing pixels). Sorry to those who may feel upset (if you're here on this blog, or just in a metaphysical sense).
Kermit, great contribution, as always. I look forward to your presentation on the house.
One question, though. Is the bathroom in the Sun photo the same as the one you show? The clean looking one you show has a bidet next to a toilet, which is next to the wall. In the Sun photo, we see some kind of toilet or bidet, and next to the wall, rather than a toilet, we see some kind of a box.
Could these photos be of two different bathrooms?
Also, I wonder if the "ex-boyfriend's jeans" will pop up as significant. Remember RS mentioned MK was wearing them. Sounds like a leading statement. I think I see jeans at the bottom left of the duvet. Clean jeans planted by the killers?
Sparrow! It's funny how these types of observations come up when you're presented with a specific problem (ref. the cut bra strap the other day, we would probably not have identified the severed strap as such had it not been for the news item about the knife, the bra and the DNA).
Well, I'm quite sure the bathrooms in The Sun photo and the Matrix screenshot are the same (ie. AK's and the victim's). The floor tiling is the same, the ceramic plaques on the wall are the same, the bidet is the same, ... now as for the toilet, I'll see your toilet and raise you a shower!
My explanation for the toilet is that in The Sun image, the toilet itself was removed to try to access possible DNA and other evidence within it, or in the drainage pipe. I would say that the box (with drawers) either just covers the outlet (after 2 and a half months there are no odours, but maybe vermin) or contains ILE evidence gathering material.
Now I ask you, in The Sun photo, the shower stall has suddenly appeared, when in the Matrix screen capture, where is it? Maybe just the opposite happened, in the initial evidence gathering they removed the shower stall? ... Maybe there isn't any visual contradiction, the shower may simply be off screen to the left in Matrix.
I have some more TV program screen shots of the main bathroom (where RHG deposited his DNA). It's completely different, bigger, with better fixtures, with a half bathtub instead of a shower stall.
Now I ask you, in The Sun photo, the shower stall has suddenly appeared, when in the Matrix screen capture, where is it? Maybe just the opposite happened, in the initial evidence gathering they removed the shower stall? ... Maybe there isn't any visual contradiction, the shower may simply be off screen to the left in Matrix.---Kermit
Testing me, eh?
I think the shower stall may have been removed before the toilet. The base of the shower stall just overlaps the line of the fourth tile from the wall. In the other direction, there's about 1/6th the length of a tile that comes out from the front of the shower, before the next tile begins. In the photo with the toilet, it looks like we see more of that tile, and there's an unidentified narrow black thing on that fourth tile. My guess is that the shower is gone.
Kermit, Sparrow,My link above is to a photo. (with clothes drying?!) I don't think I've seen it before.
Kermit, quite awful for the Sun to depict forensic fluid as blood, huh? Do you know if that's luminol, and if the variation in shade of pink has anything to do with the presence of blood? Or is the the variation just do to the way the fluid was applied?
Sparrow | 01.16.08 - 4:51 am |
I agree with you. The only strange thing is that the "crime scene" photos, with numeric and alphabetic ILE markers (like the overall photo of the bedroom, with victim under duvet), should be taken "AS IS", when the cops arrive. It's strange in the case of the Matrix bathroom image that with the faucet and bidet ILE markers, they've removed the shower, which - with or without evidence - is an important visual element to the bathroom crime scene.
Damian, which link are you refering to (timestamp)?
Sorry Damian, I'm blind
Damian, that image is the hallway to the foreign girls rooms, taken from the living room / kitchen. Interesting that the clothes rack is in the middle. With the ILE markers in the middle, it's from the time of the crime (or maybe the clothes drying rack was outside and the ILE brought it in so that any evidence on the clothes wouldn't rot)
http://online.giornaledellumbria...bria.it/portal/
No worries...go here and click on front page.
You can see the white ceramic pedestal of AK's/victim's sink at the end. No pinkish ILE fluid sprayed around yet.
Damian, yes it's the first time I've seen that photo. It really helps us understand more of the space.
So I guess that all the pink in the bathroom is trace blood then? I say this because they must have put luminol on the entire hall outside the girls room, but it doesn't look like there's a lot of pink.
Here's a grainy ILE video capture from the corner of the balcony. When I get some time (not for awhile), I'll check the weather on Nov.2, quite sure it didn't rain (cool and breezy on Nov. 1 and night).
In any case, there's no clothes drying rack out there (but would AK and RS have been running around and mopping up with the rack in the way ...). Probably not a major issue.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net.../
b1b6706b60.jpg
You can see the