mentalblog.com comments:
The origin of the name notwithstanding, the name Mushka is in Yiddish, it is spelled with a “shin” as Yiddish does not have a “sin”. Your idea about the litvisher havoro was proposed at the time by Rabbi Berl Levin, and the Rebbe rejected the idea of the name being “Muska” out of hand.
What both you and Rabbi Levin failed to remember is that just like it is true that litvesher havoro often turns a “shin” into a “sin”, it also does the reverse, so while the very-very original name might have been “Muska” (and hence Mussia-related) the name the Rebbetzin was given by her father at his aliyah was pronounced by him as “Mushka” and hence written thusly (also true of the original “Mushka” – the daughter of the Mitteler Rebbe).
True, the Rebbetzin went by the name Mussia, but that would only be relevant if we were discussing her get, not naming a child after her.
Berl is correct about the Litvisher havara turning a s into a sh . Thus my father Reb Menachem Mendel would say Shiddur many times and the like.He is probably correct about the name Mushka.
What is interesting and much more relevant to our understanding of contemporary Chabad than naming a daughter after Rebbetzin Schneerson is another naming in Lubavitch. Many Lubavitcher kids are called Israel Ari Leib after the rebbe's brother Mr. Yisroel Ari eib Schneerson (d. 1952 in UK) By now almost all interested parties know that this man was not frum. He was a Trotskyite Marxist. He lived in Israel as a secular person, married a secular Jewish women and has a secular daughter Dr. Dalia Roitman in Israel. Her sons Ariel and another are both non-religious as well.
So we have an interesting fact many Lubavitcher kids are named after a person who was a shone u -Peresh .
In addition I wonder why no one named their children after the rebbe's other brother Berel. Stranger is that no one in Chabad thought of naming their sons after the 6th rebbe's youngest son in law R. Menachem Mendel Horenstein (a shomer Shabbath Jew) who was also a grandson of the Maharash the 4th rebbe. He and his wife were killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust not leaving survivors.It would be a chesed to name a child for this man.Speaking of names it is interesting that few if any in Lubavitch have named their sons after Rav Shmaryahu Gourary the eldest son in law of the 6th rebbe and a recognized Chasidic scholar and frume Yid.Yet because of his lukewarm attitude towards the 7th rebbe he has been shunned. Yet the world of 770 prefers to name kids and institutions after Dr. Marc Gurary (AKA Israel Ari Leib Schneerson).
Another tid bit for a while in the early 1970's girls were named after the 6th rebbe's rebbetzin Rabbanith Nechama Dina Schneersohn. But then some one very on high in Lubavitch put out a sign that this was not acceptable, and it stopped. Its well known that N.D. Schneersohn supported Rav Gourary as rebbe in 1950 and was not friendly to Rav Schneerson the younger.
So names and who is named after whom in contemporay Chabad is a very significant part of current Chabad political ideology.
> He is probably correct about the name Mushka.
If so, why don’t you post it for all to see?
> So we have an interesting fact many Lubavitcher kids
> are named after a person who was a shone u – Peresh.
Would you also suggest that baalei teshuva refrain from naming their children after their deceased ancestors, since most of them fall under the same category, or worse?
> the Rebbe's other brother Berel …
> R. Menachem Mendel Horenstein …
Naming children is an intensely personal affair: you do not “diss” someone by not naming after them, you do not need a reason NOT TO name, but rather a feeling of inspiration TO name. Naming after the Rebbe’s family members is done out of desire to make a gesture of love to the Rebbe. That is the reason people named their children Israel Arye Leib. Naming after Berel and M.M. Horenstein can be a bit problematic, though. There is a very strong and old kpeidah not to name children after someone who had “a bad end” (horrible death, etc). This is the reason for names like “Yirmiah” instead of “Yirmiouhu” and “Yeshaya” instead of “Yeshaohu” both very worthy individuals, I am sure you would agree.
> few if any in Lubavitch have named their sons after Rav Shmaryahu Gourary.
Do not know about the numbers, I know people named after Rabbi Dworkin and am sure those who were personally close to RASHAG named after him. Those who were not, probably would be inspired more by other names.
> because of his lukewarm attitude towards the 7th Rebbe he has been shunned.
This is simply unfair to the man’s memory. What was true in 1950, was not true later, and definitely not in 1985, when the man gave up everything for the Rebbe.
> rebbetzin Nechama Dina Schneersohn.
Again, not naming is not “dissing”. You can have great respect for someone, but feel more inspired to name your child after another person. It is not natural for Chassidim to want to name their children after person, great though they might have been, that was not in a close loving relationship with their Rebbe.
I guess no frume Yid named their children after the Holocaust for relatives killed in the Holocaust. Reb Berel" azelche shtusim kent ir derzeillen Amerikaner yolden "!Please go to BP and Williamsburg and you will find thousands of children named after relatives and grandparents killed in the Holocaust.You mean to tell me no Lubavitcher named his children after relatives killed by Stalin or Hitler YM'Shmam?How about adding Alter or Chaim to the name ?
I wrote clearly you are correct about Mushka. Should I run around the Mikveh in Crown Hts with a white horse saying that Berel emes ve Toraso emes ? Unlike others when some one in Chabad is right I admit to it .
Re Israel Arieh Leib; are relatives namimg kids for him. No its people completely not related to him.(As a matter of fact his daughter changed the name to Riel giving it a modern sound) They do not even know what he looked like or who he was! Perhaps some one should publish a post card with his picture on it(suitable for framing). No one in official Lubavitch has had the courage to stop this issue ;there is a Messiach and science center named for him, mosdos in Israel named for him. Yet not one mosad named for R. Shmaryahu Gourary ! Not a mosad named for either Horenstein father or son .Why would a non related person name a chasidic child after a shone vepireshnik. Would you name a child after Theodore Herzl or maybe after Leo Baeck or Martin Buber ?
The relatives of Baale Teshuva of whom you mention are known to be non religious and are relatives.I have no problems there. I doubt a Chabad BT would name his son Yitzchok after Rabin or David after Ben Gurion ?
Rabbi Dworkin had no children . So it was a mitzvah to name after him. I have not encountered any teen agers named for the RaShaG. Yet many Lubavitchers are named for Dr. Israel Arie leib Schneerson nad he has natural grandchildren.
If the RaShaG "gave up everything" as you write,for the Rebbe it was in 1950-1951 not in 1985.
In fact your comments about Rebbetzin Nechama Dina are the only cogent and completely objective comments you make. That is emes leamito ITS the TRUTH.And I admit that fact.
Shneur,
RE: R’ BEREL & R’ M.M HORENSTEIN HY”D:
I do not maintain the correctness of what I wrote about this. I was jus guessing, simply because IT NEVER CROSSED MY MIND TO NAME AFTER THEM. But I know there are some shpitz Chabad types who must have thought about naming at least after R’ Berel. So I took a stab at it. But I did see a mokor for the kpeida and so MAYBE that is the reason ... I see no reason otherwise. Do you? Another thought: Sholom Dovber would negate Berel, and as for MM, well… you know there is the Tzemach Tzedek… so may be it is just practical. Are you implying the reason is sinister?
RE: R’ YSROEL ARYEH LEIB Z”L:
I wrote: "Naming after the Rebbe’s family members is done out of desire to make a gesture of love to the Rebbe. That is the reason people named their children Israel Arye Leib." What is not factual here? You may disagree with the wisdom of such an act, but do you really think there are people naming their kids thusly for any other reason? Also, are you saying that this particular naming is Jewishly improper and the Rebbe was happy with an improper act r”l? (Do you know that he expressed appreciation to people for that naming, including the naming of mosdos?. To us this is Maaseh Rav, unlike the peculiarities of child-naming by the natives in Williamsburgh, with all due respect to our Hungarian brethren.)
I will go further: people in Lubavitch love Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka. But I would submit to you that they name their daughters after her for the same reason as for Reb Yisroel Aryeh Leib. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE REBBE.
I will go yet further: If Rabin or Ben Gurion were the Rebbe's brothers, I would name after them as well if I thought the Rebbe would appreciate it.
RE: THE RASHAG Z”L:
I admit to you, IT IS possible that you do not see too many teen-age Shmaryahs because of the events of the 1950s, I do not know. And if so, what of it? Even absent those events, how many Chassidim named their kids after people that were not flesh and blood Beis HaRav in the earlier generations? Even after gedoiley hahassidim? Heard of too many Hilles or Yizchak Isiks in Lubavitch? If I had had a personal close relationship with the RASHAG, I would want to name after him for sure. Absent that, other names take precedent.
AND ABOVE ALL:
Are you really saying that NOT naming is a hostile act toward that person?
P.S.
BTW, what exactly did RASHAG “give up” in 1950-51? To "give up" denotes choice... As I see it, in 1951 he lost, in 1985 he had a choice… and he gave up everything then. And I maintain that what you wrote in your original note about him having a “lukewarm attitude” to the Rebbe is grossly unfair to him in light of that.
Shneur,
OOPS:
A small note of apology to you: I mistakenly attributed your first note regrading "Mushka" to Mr. Atlas, hence my request to "post it for all to see". Sorry :)
I am sorry but you are both wrong about Litvicher Havoro.
Shin and Sin are interchangeable in a true Litvisher Yiddish. This is the logic behind my argument. Muska was written Mushka to be pronounced as Muska. But it is not only Sin into Shin, it is also Shin into Sin. For example my grandmother used to tell me that I need to find a "Siduch".
Atlas, let me clarify:
In the Litvisher havoro "shin" and "sin" are interchangeable (both ways) without altering the spelling ONLY in Loshon HaKodosh. (Like the example you site, or "sheichel" instead of "seichel", etc.)
The name Mushka, however, is in Yiddish. Yiddish of old did not have standardized spelling (and even today there are local variations), thus "samech" would have to be used to spell this name to accommodate for the pronunciation you suggest to be correct (Muska). [If you look at 18th century Yiddish writings from Lita / White Russia, you will find the spelling to be completely phonetic.]
Since the Rebbitzin's father (the one that named her) wrote her name with a "shin", there is no doubt what so ever that he pronounced it as "Mushka" (and that such was also the pronunciation of the Mitteler Rebbe’s daughter’s name). The fact that the name may have originated from Mussia - Muska and even the fact that the Rebbitzin went by Mussia does not alter the certainty that her given name was CHAYA MUSHKA.
(My earlier post regarding Mushka being an altered Mussia – Muska was only an attempt to explain the possible origin of the "shin" pronunciation. The correctness of such pronunciation, however, is proven by the spelling and needs no further proof)
Berl, I appreciate your contribution but you should get a treatment for your verbal diarrhea. Namely but the time you finish you forget who said what and depart from the original post into deep woods. I simply think that you don't have a good logic. And arguing with you is pointless. This is not the level of discussion that I except on my blog and I wish you and hmm just go away.
Atlas, every Bar-Bei-Rav that went to Cheder understands what I wrote: there is no "sin" in any kind of Yiddish (incuding the litvish kind). It would serve you and your unwitting readers well if you stuck to subjects in which you have more that a cursory knowledge.
This is prime example of a person who does not want to listen. No matter how many times you repeat the same thing. I am going say this last time. A Shin was pronounced as Sin or Samech in Litvisher Yiddish. (This is similar to pronouncing of "Z" Zaddik as "Ch", hence you get Fufchik instead of Fufzik or Itchele instead of Itzchak). So Mushka was meant to sound Muska, they just wrote it with a Shin and everyone including the Tzemach Tzedeck would read it as Samech.
Many thanks for another presumptuous lesson in the sweet dialect of my childhood.
All my posts on this subject are clear. Whoever is willing to read and comprehend, will surely be able see the reference to the completely phonetic quality of Yiddish spelling prior to its standardization and will understand that IN THE PAST, Litvisher Jews that said "fufCHik", ALSO SPELLED IT THUSLY (with a "shin" or "tes-shin", not with a "tzadi" as is customary today). They conversely SPELLED "menTZ" and "TZolont" with a "tzadi", not with a "tes-shin". The word "Sver" they spelled with a "samech", the word "SHurtuk" with a "shin" (instead of "surtuk") etc, etc...
In this manner, Reb Aharon "staraSeller" became known as Reb Aharon "staraSHeller" (and again, spelled with "shin" instead of the original White Russian "S" sound of "starasellye" – "old village").
Thus even a slightly thinking person can plainly see that an old Yiddish name spelled with a "shin" was necessarily pronounced with a "sh" sound, AT THE VERY LEAST at the time the spelling was established, otherwise it would have been simply spelled with a "samech".
So obviously you are completely wrong: MuSHka is the correct name in both SPELLING and SOUND. (But did the name originate way-back-when from Mussia/Muska? Perhaps. Is it possible that the Tzemach Tzedek called his Rebbetzin "Muska"?. Unlikely but possible.)
Many people have given the name Dovber after the Rebbe's other brother (who had issues) with the Rebbe's permission and thanks. Some of these have been published!
Tzemach, sorry to come in late,
but do u have any info on what was the name of Tzemach tzedak's wife? Musya or Mushkah?
the post is great btw.
I understand that this post does not fit the general politik of the site, but I will go ahead anyway. With all due respect, the Rebbe referred to the late Rebbetzin many times over using a shin (in speech, there is little room to go wrong there).
I would venture to guess that the Rebbe would have some rudimentary knowledge of all the abovementioned.
After all, the first instance of shin and sin getting mixed up goes way farther back than litvishe yiddish. (In fact, it's in the Bible (Shoftim 12:6), where is was used by Gilead in a civil war against shevet Efraim.) So barring total incompetence of a kind that the worst anti-semites do not accord the Rebbe (or the theories on the Lubavitch left that the Rebbe went overboard in '88 already, G-d forbid), this must weigh in on the debate in some way.
Am I going wrong somewhere?
bs'd
the back of the photo reads beloved rather than lovely
I just came upon your posting regarding Menachem Mendel Horenstein. I am married to a Horensten, whose father changed the spelling of their last name from "Horenstein" to "Horensten", dropping the "i" for some reason. I am in the process of researching my husband's geneology and none of his family members are aware of the family's past, and they are all assimilated. Could you please direct me to any sources that would enable me to get the historical information? Thank you so much.
Sincerely,
Chaia Leah Horensten
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