mentalblog.com comments:
Can one buy a kasket in America? If so, where? (And I don't mean a modified Greek Fisherman's Cap or a 'Fiddler' Cap.)
Good post !
Questions for Schneur Zalman of NY -
1) You imply that Stalin tried to get Lubavitchers to give up the kasket. Can you elaborate on that ? Any anecdotal or documentary evidence about that around ?
2) What kind of hat is 'Reb Geitcha'(by the way, what kind of a name is that ? nickname for what ?) wearing in the photo at the Moscow chassunoh ?
Perhaps the move away from the kasket is just part or symptomatic of a move away from the peasant/shtetl roots (and mentality) of Lubavitch/Lubavitchers. Jews have become the people of the city (usually big city). Not only them though - there has been great worldwide urbanization over the last century, picking up speed over time.
Vi es kristilt zich........Un vi es yidilt zich, es Chassidisht un Lubavitcht zich oiched - nein ?
The bourgeoisization (did I spell that right ?) of Lubavitch ?
More for Schneur Zalman of NY -
If Jews in the 1700's were living in an urban environment like NYC, would the Hassidic movement have even started ? Even if it would have, I suspect things might have been different in some ways. If the miyaseid hatenuah would have been a melamed in Crown Heights instead of being in a rural area where he could go out into the countryside and be misbodeid, that might have had an effect (even though there is some nature near CH - e.g. Prospect Park, Botanic Garden, it's still not the same).
The whole seviva has changed. Ver hert yetzt fun a baal agoloh (even though we can say that a modern cabbie is the equivalent nowadays-ober ver hert haint afilu fun a Yiddishe/Chassidishe cabbie ?), a horse and wagon, etc. ?
I nominate Schneur Zalman of NY to be (a or the) Lubavitcher Rebbe.
His first move should be to (belatedly following in the footsteps of other Hassidic groups like Sqver, Satmar, etc.) move the HQ of Lyubavitch to upstate NY or a similar location - where the climate and surroundings are like it was in 'der alter heim' - azoi vi in Lyubavitch fun amohl. Just like there is a New Square, there can be a 'New Lyubavitch' (unless he would want to call it something like 'Kiryas Menachem Mendel', just like the Satmar settlement is called 'Kiryas Joel'). It could be a tourist attraction too - like a colonial Williamsburg - like Dr. Yaffa Eliach is working on in Eretz Yisroel.
Such a rural (or, lichol hapochos, not urbanized) setting would be more conducive to spirituality. Perhaps that is a factor in why Schneur felt much more at home in Kfar Habad than CH.
Es is shoin tzeit zich tsuriktsukeren tsu di shroshim (It's time already to go back to the roots). Chadeish yomeinu kikedem ! There have been seven Lubavitcher Rebbes. We know that seven symbolizes a cycle (like the days of the week). The first Lubavitcher Rebbe was Schneur Zalman - it's time to start the cycle again with another Schneur Zalman. The first Rebbe wrote epistles - this Schneur Zalman writes them too. He also has deep roots in Lyubavitch and isn't a johnny-come-lately.
Perhaps it could be said that the last Rebbe was a bit premature in restarting the cycle. He was the first (central) Lubavitcher Rebbe to bear the name of a previous Rebbe. The six Rebbes before him all had different names - Schneur Zalman, Dov Ber, Menachem Mendel, Shmuel, Sholom Ber, Yosef Yitzchok (as an aside it seems that few Lubavitchers bear the name Shmuel - esp. compared to the others above). If we are going into a time of repeating names, why not start from the beginning with another Schneur Zalman ?
For the record, ich bin nisht a Lubavitcher - ich bin a poshut'er Yid.
A poshuter yid - or, as Lubavitchers might say, 'a veltlicher' (ober gedenk az der alter Rebbe hot gezogt az Moshiach vet zein a veltlicher !).
The name Geitcha is Getzl. Russian Yiddish changes Tz into Tch.
Thanks for the comments. Firstly I don't think the real kasket is available anyplace. I doubt it was available after World War 1 even in Poland.
Most old Frum Jews in the Kresy regions of Poland wore either old pre war caps, adopted the Peylishe Hittel (that the Gerer wore including the Bays Yisroel in Poland) or more likely wore a fedora. Only the hard core continued with the kasket.
Clearly the 7th rebbe wore one too in Russia.
One can purchase a kangol cap very similiar toa kasket. Also the mao cap is also similiar to the kasket. It also comes in Black. I just purchased one in a store called Pearl River in SOHO.
Getcha is the dimunitive of Getzel . These Lithuanian dimunitives have been lost . Eg Mote for Mordechai, Mullah for Shmuel, Zhame for zalman ,
Tzalleh for Betzalel, Bere for Berel (Barry Gourary has told me that Bereh is what the 6th rebbe called him not Berke) Avreme for Avrohom and Shimeh for Shimon.No Yossi, Yudi, Avi, Zalmy etc in Lithuania or Reisen.
In regards Stalin there was no specific campaign against Jewish clothing.
Orthodoxy in general except for elements in Israel's sefardic society is completely Middle Class "if not higher" Everyone is a zaken and its not lefi kevodo to work. The Yeshivishe attitudes towards work and the like have come to dominate Orthodoxy.
In Russia , Lubavitch was spelled Lubawitz on the 6th rebbe's staionary and my late father always said the Lubavitzer rebbe.
I appreciate the nomination. However like General William T. Sherman said, I can not accept , will not accept and will not serve.
A Luabitch rural settlement would have been a great idea in the 1950-1972 period. Lubavitch is very middle class group today
It's really sad to look around and be unable to point at anyone who even has one characteristic needed to be Lubavitcher rebbe.
If Rabbi Shmuel Butman had behaved in a more Chassidshe manner he could have been a candidate , but he decided to model himself after the PR/fund raising model of New Lubavitch.
The rebbe had chaueffers, mailmen, file clerks gofers and 1 administrative aide (Hodakov) in his so called secratariat but alas failed to groom anyone to succeed him.
Yasher kayach tsu Tsemach'en, der baal achasania, un tsu Schneur far di choshuver comments.
More re names - Tsemach is also a name that conjures up for me images of White Russia/Russia. I don't think it was found much elsewhere.
I see that Schneur has declined my nomination - just like the last Rebbe declined to serve at first. Hmmmmmmmmm....... ;-)
There is a long history in Hassidism of Rebbes declining and resisting when first nominated. ;-)
Any comments re why there seem to be so few Lubavitchers named Shmuel ? I guess that that Rebbe wasn't as famous as others and was so long ago. He is referred to as 'der mitteler Rebbe' - not by his name.
Oops - I think I made some mistakes. 'Der mitteler Rebbe' was 'di Rebbe R. Ber' I think I recall now. But the question about the name Shmuel in Lubavitch remains.
So the fifth Rebbe was, to a degree, a repetition of the second Rebbe namewise - but only partially.
Schneur, I believe the name of the "crippled man" you earlier asked about is Reb Avrom Genin A"H. He was a true pillar of the Moscow kehilla (even in a monitory sense!). He later (~1990) went to Israel and lived in Nachals Har Chabad (?). But, I do not imagine Reb Avrom A"H was "intellectually significant" enough for Mr. Atlas’ taste to qualify as a "leader". :)
Schneur, you keep dropping Reb Mendel Futterfas’ name in your posts. Let me testify from first hand knowledge that it was Reb Mendel (as well as others you site as examples of "Old Lubavitch") that was actively involved in creating the style of hiskashrus to The Rebbe (or as you like to say "the 7th rebbe") that is characteristic of contemporary Lubavitch you seem to detest so much. If you were in Kfar Chabad in 1971, you surely know the all the famous "post Slomo Chaim" revolution brought about by Reb Mendel. It was Reb Mendel that has inculcated in us, his mushpoim, THE TOTAL hiskashrus to The Rebbe (even at the expense of "avodo penimis").
My point: from an intellectual-honesty-point-of-view it behooves you to support your opinions and feelings with personages that might have agreed with said opinions. I knew Reb Mendel Futterfas. Reb Mendel Futterfas was a friend of mine. Schneur, you are no Mendel Futterfas. :)
Schneur -
How about a discourse on Lubavitcher names (I was thinking of given names - but surnames could be interesting as well) - men and women ?
E.g. what name is most common for men now ? Has Menachem Mendel overtaken Schneur Zalman and Yosef Yitzchok (yet?)?
What are names of all the Rebbetzins ?
Has Chaya Mushka surged into the #1 spot among Lubawitzer nekeivos yet ?
FOS, FYI almost every boy born in 1982-1983 in Lubavitch (100 years since Rebbe MAHARASH's passing) was named Shmuel.
FOS, Rebbes - Rebbitzins:
1. Shneur Zalman - Sterna Soroh,
2. DovBer - Sheina,
3. Menachem Mendel - Chaya Mushka,
4. Shmuel - Rivka,
5. Sholom Dovber - Sterna Soroh,
6. Yosef Yitzchok - Nechoma Dina,
7. same as # 3
One reason that Shmuel never acheived the popularity of names like Sholom-Ber or Yosef Yitzchok in Lubavitch is because the Maharash R. Shmuel was the leader of only about 33%of the Chabad world. The Kopuster rebbe's Rabbi Leib and R. Shlomo Zalman were leaders of Chabad from the death of the Zemach Zedek until abot 1901. The Ladier rebbe rabbi Chaim Schneur Zalman was also a leader of a small olam and Rav Israel Noach was leader of an even smaller crowd. Given this lack of total influence its no suprise that the name Shmuel ranks along names like Boruch Shalom, Israel Noach, Levi Yitzchak and Arieh leib as secondary names in the world of Lubavitch.
Firstly did I ever compare myself to Rabbi Futterfass ?
Lets see what I have recently said about him :that he had warm farbrenguns in KFAR CHabd in 1971 and that he wore a kasket.I added that he actually left Russia in 1962-1963 in a deal engineered in 770 between the English govt and Mr. Khruschev. I think JFK played a minor role too.
Did I say anything else?Did I imply that he agreed with my views of Lubavitch since 1951. No such thing !!!
Frankly he was an erlikhe Yid a mesiras nefeshdike Yid vechuli. Does it mean one must either accept all of his personality or reject it.
I imagine even you would agree that Rav Aaron Kotler was a Lamdan.
I think even though you disagree with the derech of Rav Yoelish Teitelbaum you would agree that he did much good for Yiddishkeit.
We need not tear down or build up people in black and white !
Frankly if I wanted to support my opinions with names of ontemporary Chabad rabbonim , I am not lacking for stories and names since 1950. Es fellen nit Anash voz zaynin nit geven azaey nispoel ...Alas that is not my interest in these notes.
Lehavdil at the Democratic convention names of GOP presidents like Abraham Lincoln, Eisenhower are mentioned. At the last GOP convention names like Democrativc presidents like FDR and JFK were mentioned. Did anyone cry foul ?
Finally I have always maintained that the Lubavitcher rebbe was a complex personality who with all my issues, I still regarded as one of the great Leaders of the Jewish people in the period of 1950-1994.
Some people sing Shlomo carlebach songs which I imagine includes you , does that mean you agree with all his views and shitos.
I think R. Meir Kahane did much for Soviet jewry does that require me to agree with him on all issues ?
Schneur, my point was NOT that you must agree on all issues with those you mention. Or that people are B&W. That would be ridiculous.
But I think that common decency requires one to refrain from putting the names of Chassidim into a context they would never agree with without at least mentioning that fact. When you put Reb Mendel in the context of juxtaposing Crown Heights and Kfar Chabad (or "Old Lubavitch" vs. "New Lubavitch"), I feel it is incumbent upon you to mention that Reb Mendel was one of the chief engineers of the "New Lubavitch" and would never agree with your hergeishim and opinions on this topic.
and schneur, you surely know one can say a great deal by implication alone.
as to Shlomo Calerbach: regrettably, my musical prowess allows me to admire his music only from afar :( singing his songs is out of question for me. A cruel butcher I am not. :)
Again I do not think I ever mentioned Reb Futterfass in a Old vs New Lubavitch context.
I met reb Mendel on a number of occassions , saying this I admit I did not know him in the least. He was a close friend (actually talmid) of my uncle's in Russia and my father and he even had a "great time" at a Simchas bais ha-shoavah one year.
Indeed Reb Mendel was a hiskashruth man. But in his case it it did not replace his varmkeit, his lack of interest in publicity and chitzonius.I do not recall Reb Mendel "boasting " of how many Jews he smuggled from Russia, or how many mikvhes he restored.
Today before I can even say hello , the typical shliach boasts to me of how much his "plant" cost, how many people passed through the doors, how big the budget is vechuli vwechuli.How beautiful his mikve, how much the tiles cost etc.
Thats the difference. I really have no problem with hiskashrus. My problem is with the loss of varrmkeyt, with the loss of the old world recipe, with the loss of Yiddish and of Ahavath Reyim.Of course I bemoan the loss of the traditional core values Avoda, haskola in favor of fund raising and PR.
Thats why I find myself closer to the so called Chagath Community.
Let me again note that conversations with other zikne Anash brought forth mixed results. Some liked the new Order, others ...
But elu velu ...I do not seek to change contemporry Lubavitch. I seek to spark interest in a re formation of a Chabad type community (the smaller the better -voz klenner der eylem , voz gresser di simcha !) based on core spiritual values .An impossible job...
Those that start believing their own PR are indeed in a sad shape (from Chabad-Chassidus point of view). But otherwise - fundraising is not a venue for cheshbon hanefesh, vehamevin yovin.
Reb Mendel spent at least one month a year fundraising full time. Neither you nor I know what he said to those people he asked for money. But I imagine it was not the necessarily the same message he would deliver at an honest Chassidisher farbrengen. I know the same (in principle) holds true for some of my shluchim-friends. But I agree, there some Pei Tzadiks that actually mean the boasting seriously... Too bad for them.
Schneur, I pose to you again my honest question: do you believe the core Chabad values we both hold dear are not attainable for a Lubavither of today (beyond yechidei segulo)?
As a Lubavitcher, I identify with much of what Shneur writes (besides of course, the hatred he seems to have for our Rebbe).
Is there indeed place in Lub today for the old style Chabad that so many of us loved? Which of our Yeshivas are educating children in this style?
The major problem with Lub today is that it is so pluralistic - anything goes, and when you send your child off to join world Lub, who knows what kind of finished product you will end up with.
Chaim, Schenur is a complex personality who, with all my issues, does not hate The Rebbe. :)
Chaim, regarding chinuch, you are most likely to end up with the "kind of product" you as a parent produce. If you count on the yeshiva to do the job, you are out of luck in today's world. You are on your own.
I disagree. I have seen and spoken to too many kids and parents to believe that. Of course parental attitudes and hanhogos are very important. The problem is when the child realizes that the parents are way out of step with contemporary Lub attitudes, he will most often choose those of his peers over those of their parents.
For example, how many parents who don�t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach have succeeded in bringing up children with the same beliefs?
I do not know, I do not have an issue with the Rebbe as Moshiach belief. But I do know that few children can learn a piece of gemoroh or even taitch a posuk chumash if noone learns with them at home.
Berl, everyone call the "crippled man" Reb Abrum not Reb Avrom, he was from Ukrain not Russia or Lita. Thank you for reminding me about his last name tough. And yes, please read all the posts and please don't jump to conclusions before you read them, see here.
Berl, you live in CH and you don't know what is happening to so many of our kids, even from the "best homes"? I'm not referring to the rebels, the ones that are mechallel Shabbos. Look at so many of the others. Funny clothes, girls, college, etc, need I continue?
Tzemach -
Yasher kayach on bringing some attention to the inyan of the old headgear. Actually such hats were not worn only by Lubavitchers. There are photos of Litvishe gedaylim - e.g. the Chofetz Chaim and Dayan R. Simcha Zelig Reguer of Brisk wearing them as well.
I say 'accept no substitutes' (unless something like Schneur proposed which is very similar). The alternatives you proposed are not acceptable to me. If there is enough rotzon, a way will be found to get kaskets or the like now for part of the aylem that would be interested in them.
There is another, related inyan, that can be brought up as well.
The old Lubavitcher pronunciation of ivreh (it was touched on a bit before - re Lubawitz vs. Lubavitch) has disappeared to a significant degree. I am thinking of things like the prounuciation of the chaylem.
The real Litvish/Lubavitch pronunciation is 'Tayreh' - not Toiroh. It seems that few Lubavitchers use that pronunciation ever these days (I think R. Butman does actually). I can understand that maybe some people don't want to use it all the time - e.g. a shliach might not want to use it during davening as it might seem too foreign to his aylem - but he could still use it when speaking Yiddish (if he ever does that), with his mishpocho, etc. - but to abandon it entirely ??
Vos iz der cheshbon ???
Maybe one could also talk about Sabbes vs. Shabbos and stuff like that - ober 'tofasto meruba lo tofasto'. Ober potur bilo klum i efsher.....
Chabad needs manhigim like Breslov has. Spiritual leaders – *not* political or administrative leaders like R. Krinsky, R. Butman, etc.
Are there any good candidates out there?
In this discussion on the lack of continuation of 'old' style or 'old' school Lubavitch customs, all comments above are missing a key point. The Rebbe bet the farm -- *everything* -- on the geula, Moshiach, his revelation, what ever you want to call it. Nothing was spared in this wager. Nothing was held back from his shlichus, not custom, not chassidic style, not community, especially Crown Heights. He himself said that he was 'meshuga' for Moshiach. Unfortunately, or from some other's point of view, naturally, he lost the bet. There's not going to be any avoida pinimis in Lubavitch, no more 'tayreh', no more 'varmkeit,' no more 'real' mesiras nefesh. In sometime in the future, if the Lubavitchers in Gaza chained themselves to walls against a forced withdrawl, it would be paraded around the world by the shluchim as if it were no more than a publicity stunt.
All the nostalgia in the world won't bring it back. It's over. Face it, it's just going to get worse. More of Lubavitch will frie out, go to college, rent videos, hire escorts, smoke pot, and be more, never less, materialistic. Perhaps the only thing which could save old-style chassidus is peak oil slamming America and the rest of the world out of modernity and back to the shtetl (the 'die-off' scenario).
Firstly, I am happy that sucha discussion about the future of Lubavitch was generated here. Rarely do I see such an open minded discussion.
Re : Chaim . I do not hate the rebbe. I am not his Chasid , but I never hated him. On the contrary was one of my 5 rabbinical heroes of my youth.I certainly reserve the right to disagree with certain manifestations of contemporary Chabad that I see the Rebbe being responsible for.
Chaim we need to hear voices like yours more. You are speaking about Yisroel Sova, chinuch a derech hachaim etc. Tizke LeMitzvoth.
FOS is on the mark. The kasket was the hat of all frum Jews in Lithuania, Ukraine, Moldavia, White russia and the Vohlin area until 1918
The following exceptions are noted the Yeshiva community in Lithuania And many rabbonim wore fur hats, top hats or other rabbinical hats.
Pictures in Skverer books show old time Skverer Chasidim in kasketen including a eynikel of the Chasam Sofer who lived in the Ukraine.The Stefaneshter rebbe's gabboyim wore the kasket in Moldavia.
Reb Simcha Zelig, Rogochover, Chofetz Chaim, Reb Nachum Horodner , many others wore this cap.Of course the Lubavitcher rebbes themselves wore kasketen in Lubavitz (al pi eduso of the RaCHaL)
Lubavitchers were traditionally Lithuanian Jews as such they dressed that way and their Yiddish was a Litvishe Yiddish ala White Russia. That s being lost today even though the rebbeim were makpid on that havorah. How can young Chasidim dress with the rebbe's socks, shoes, Arrow short sleeve shirts, hat and other stuff , but speak a "oi" instead of an "ey", or better yet speak in English amongst themselves.
Re" Shmarya. You are correct , Luabvitch needs spiritual guidance, to get back on line.
I do not know the leaders today perhaps Chaim and Berl know the road map better.
I think in 10 years a young men sufficiently removed from the Larger than Life - ness of the Rebbe will emrge to claim leadership in a spiritual manner.Till then Rabbonim Krinsky, and Szemtow will lead.
Under the rebbe few Chasidim were groomed for spiritual leadership.
I still don't think I got an answer re what kind of hat Reb Geitcha was wearing. Anyone ?
Re Lubavitch making a settlement in a place like upstate NY. Such a venture would have not have to displace CH - it could be a co-center - like Kiryas Joel and Williamsburg in Satmar Hassidism.
Anyway, maybe I shouldn't be giving Lubavitch eitzos since I am a 'veltlicher'.
Getcha is probably wearing a russian fur hat I hope one of our readers originally from there could name it for us. II doubt it is Jewish in origin.
You all seem to forget that the kasket was a decree from the Czar to force Jews to dress like Russian goyim. Chassidim said that the purpose of the decree was to prevent Jews from looking up - due to the visor (to hashem). Why bring it back?
On the other hand, the Litvishe kapote, with a split in the back, was also a decree from the Czar. Roshei yeshiva and Lubavitchers should go back to wearing bekeshes without a slit, like the Polish chassidim.
Yehuda -
Not everything re clothing is related to degrees from the czar.
Can you furnish sources for what you contend above (e.g. executive order #879, Czar Alexander I, the Kremline, March 6, 1854) ?
What about the other types of wide brimmed hats worn by many Hassidim ? They can be make even a bigger mechitza than the visor of the kasket vis a vis shomayim, no ? Are you opposed to them too ?
*Kremlin
Fos,
Here's a quote from this link:
http://www.sichosinenglish.org/b...arta-bam/
49.htm
The Lubavitcher Rebbe once related that for many years the Jews of Russia wore a "kasket" - a cap with a very small brim. One time the government issued a decree that the brim on the caps be extended. Chassidim interpreted this as an attempt by the government to make it difficult for Jews to fulfill the words of the prophet, "Raise your eyes on High and see Who created these [things]!" (Isaiah 40:26). The Chassidim were clever, so they decided to follow the government directive to make the caps with longer brims, but they turned the caps around so that they could still continuously look up to heaven.
The polish jews hat was also called a Kasket
this whole debat over hats is quite sily, the fact of the mater is that the Rebbe choose to wear a fedora and that should be final, if it was good enogh for him then how much more so it is ok for every 1 else
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