mentalblog.com comments:
It is important to note, that in the book "cheshbono shel olam", krinsky claims to have "lost " the second will. He does not claim that the Rebbe told him to nullify it. On a side note, the auther of the above mentioned book writes, that every quote is his book was verified by the one who was quoted.
First of all, it was B. Klein who says the Rebbe told him to call piekarsky to nullify the will.
Second, Krinsky never said anything to anyone about the second will. He never said he had it and it was lost, he never denied it either.
Third, you fail to mention that POST the supposed unsigned will, the Rebbe called the attorney to redo the legal corporate papers for all his major institutions. Namely, Merkos, Machne and Agudas.
So if you want to run a honest debate, get the facts straight and then we can discuss them.
You miss one of the key issues of the Will. That is the Clintoesque question of the meaning of the Hebrew word Kegon . (Chakira discussed this issue last year on his blog) Does it mean "such as" or "as" if it means as then Krinsky has some claim to power, if it means such as none of these guys really has any claim as, these names were just suggestions, not carved in stone candidates.
Speaking of Wills, I can not ignore rumors that the Rebbe left a will naming a replacement. There was lots of talk of R. Piekarskis' involvement in such a will R. Zalman Labkovski;s name was thrown about as a candidate
Personally I doubt such a will was ever executed.
I hope to write part 2 of my "What If" scenario for Lubavitch soon.
The rebbe also left personal property dishes , jewelry etc to his only niece the former Dalia Schneersohn-Roitman in Rechovot. Like many contemporary Schneersohns she and her sons are good secular Israelis .
Many of us recall many occassions when the rebbe publically rebuked his followers for not following his instructions.Sometimes it was concerning the AC in 770 or about Israeli elections in the 1980's.There were aso other times when shluchim were so slow to move like in the matter of Isaac raphael and the issue of rav Rivkin.
Yet when the Gourary book case broke 3 men "followed" the rebbes instructions with great gusto the rebbe's driver and PR expert, the Rebbe's liason with the Millionaires Club and one James G. an old "fixer in Lubavitch who once soughtto bring Barry back to 770 .
In reflection they all saw the issue of isolating Barry Gourary from Lubavitch as an imprtant matter. As long as he was connected to Lubavitch and a "neutral" figure which he was he could not only be a cntender for spiritual leadrship , but also for material leadership. Gourary having a say in the post rebbe Lubavitch would mean the end of these 3 peoples career . Certainly their aspirations for leadership would be blocked. All 3 worked hard to get the court case moving.Lets suggest that Mrs. Mushka and Barry survived the rebbe , I have no doubt that she would have suggested Barry to take leadership.
I suspect the rebbe himself would have settled the matter with a million dollar lump sum settlement. But that would not accomplish what these 3 rabbis desired, so they misled the Rebbe by providing biased reports of the positions of the Gourary family.This was not difficult as there was animus amongst the family members from 1950.
This indeed led to escalations and the point of no return. In effect once this happened the 3 Lubavitcher rabbis had won their battle. Gourary was personna non gratta in 770, and they were now the chief knockers there. Only James G. could not get a piece of the action.
To 4 million. Dont try any revisionist history here.It is a fact that Yudel DID claim to have lost the Hebrew tzavoah. Though it is true that it was B. klein who said that the REbbe told him to nullify the will.
Schneur, maybe you should see Tom Clancy about co-writing his next book. You've got some fascinating ideas in your little head!
shneour,
Is Barry religous?
If he is,but not chasidic, don't you think you are 'pushing' it a wee bit that he should be in a position of power in a chasidic movement that champions strict chasidic behaviour?(or that if these three men had not been against him, he would have somehow had some say in Lubavitch)
In my humble opinion the bad blood between him and the Rebbe was sealed when his father, the first and older son in law did not become the rebbe
Barry is a left wing Modern Orthodox Jew with a strong Chassidic bent.
To the outsider it would be amazing that such a person could lead a chassidic group.
However B.G. is an ordained rabbi, studied chasidic theology with his grandfather and above all has the family tie.
Let us note that his uncle did not exactly lead the normative Chasidic lifestyle in his yearsin Berlin and Paris attending university and partaking in the cultural life of Berlin and Paris.
My comment was not meant to suggest that Mr. Gourary would become rebbe , but as the temporal heir of 770 heis voice could not be ignored in deciding the fate of the movement.
It is an empirical fact that the mazkirim controlled the lucrative racket of access to, and from, the Rebbe. (for $100,000 or so, one could presumably join the “gevirim’s yechidis” but one would need to sell the Besht’s sidder to come up with that kind of spare change). However, there must have been ways for Barry to contact the Rebbe, either directly or through other family members and yedidim, in order to dispell the falshoods being spread against him. (incidentally, Schneur’s thesis is entirely consistent with Lubavitch lore about why the Vilna Gaon would not meet with the Alter Rebbe).
Postscript: all is not happy between the “yorshim” Yudel and Avremel.
Reb Schenur, כגון is an Aramaic - not Hebrew – word (related to כגונא ). As far as I can tell, it can only mean "such as", "similar to" ( literally - "of same color as...")
Whatever language it is originally from , (and Aramaic may be correct although it is used in loshen kodesh) the distinctions I noted were talked about at the time: does it mean people like Krinsky or Krinsky himself.
My memory is poor . There were attempts at mediation, but the Rebbe "refused" to meet Barry until the funeral of Reb Shmaryahu Gourary.My hunch is that the shomre hasaf were involved in this .
What other family members : Zalman Gurary, Mulle Butman or Berel Chaskind ? by 1986 the rebbe was isolated and the shomre hasaf controlled acsess, especially true after Chana was beaten in 770.
My friends in Satmar have asked me to state that they only got involved in the book case as a way of providing physical security to Barry. They never made demands on him of any kind and were not interested in the publication of any lashon Hore against the Rebbe. I have been asked by a semi official leader of Satmar to make the preceeding statement.
Thus they claim that the statements I made recently are not accurate. If this is so i apologize for the slanderagainst satmar and their activists who were helpful to Gourary in his struggle to stay above water.
Schneur, where is the whole sentense?
OK, I found it. It is pretty clear: whoever has been serving in the role for at least 3 years (prior to the time of...), shall continue to do so, SUCH AS:... and the list follows.
כלל ופרט. Meaning to say that the will does not need to be re-drawn, should another individual be in the similar position at the time of...
Schneur, Atlas is going to be mad at me again, but I just noticed it says וכגון, (not כגון ) and that would mean: "AND [IT SHALL BE] as follows:" I still think the כלל ופרט idea stands, though.
There is a well known vort, that a rebbes "ulai" is by chasidim a "vadai". veda"l
see the update to the post
1. Whether or not it says כגון is one issue, bottom line, the Rebbe never signed it!
2. As was now posted, over a year after the supposed will (drawn up by R. Mindel A"H, who said the names were his own) the Rebbe himself gave the attorney a list of names to put into the corporate documents. He also had a few names removed from the existing board (of Agudas) at that time.
3. What is this obsession with Barry?
It's obvious from the fact that will 1 was carried out legally(by the quest and execution of the Rebbe) and others were not even attempted to be carried out in such a fashion that the Rebbe was not asking for such to be carried. Taking in consideration the quickness of the first will executed and the lack of any follow up of the so called "Second will" it is obvious that there was NO second will willed by the Rebbe. "hamotzi mechaveyroy OLOV horayo".
Mr. perplexed, you leave me even more perplexed. Just because they didint cary out the will, that means it didint exist? On the contrary, it shows that they only cary out the will that seem to be in their favor.
What do the corporate ducuments have to do with the will? The fact that the Rebbe placed him on the corporate document as the SECERTARY, has nothing to do with who is supposed to run the orginazation after Gimmel Tamuz.
To 4 million: It seems you have a problem reading previus posts. It was agreed before that no one saw the signed one, because... it was "Lost" by yudel.
And as mentioned before it is the only ducument which states who should run the mosdos after Gimmel Tamuz. If you can find me another ducument( Not the leagel will which dosent mention anything of the sort, and not the corporation ducuments which also dont mention who shall run the mosdod after Gimmel Tamuz) please post it.
Maksil--
Your version is that it was "lost" by RYK.
1. Who gave it to him in the first place, and why?
2. Why wasn't it given to anyone else, especially the one who wrote it (RNM)?
3. Where did Piekarsky come into the picture?
4. Why would the Rebbe need to appoint NEW people to run the organizations, when
A. Even in the unsigned will it clearly says things should continue as they were.
B. With the newly formed corporate papers, all decisions would be made through a board and not through an individual, thus eliminating the "Daas Yochid" element.
So as long as the Rebbe put no time limit on his restructuring of the corporations, why should we?
Perhaps the expectation that the Rebbe was going to imminently take us out of golus, as well as an unwillingness to divide the spoils until absolutely necessary, caused some people of good taste to let the "second will" slide.
Kudos to Yudel for getting all his t's crossed and his I's dotted before the stroke.
VaHaMaskil yovin: that "they" did not *carry out the will* means: The *Rebbe* was not *eager* to ensure it being carried through as *Rebbe* willed in the first will.
Further: The fact those who claim someone "lost" another will given by whom... when they know that the one who would give the final ok had to be none other than the Rebbe and the Rebbe did NOT ok any of the versions of this "will". In fact when asked about it around eve of 5750 said something like: "when i'll have time i'll look after it..." and two years have passed and he did NOT endorse that "will".
Fact: there is no SIGNED will; nor any sign of consent by the *Rebbe* for this will.
Appoointing a SECRETARY someone who many here call him merely a "baal agoloh" and at the same time leaving others out (like R.Z.G. etc) out of the structure of the mosdos certainly is an indication of how and who should administer these mosdos and who should NOT!
Good old revisionist history going on here, as usual. When i said that Yudel "Lost" something i was merely quoting him. In the same book, from which the will were taken from, there is a quote from Yudel saying that the Rebbe gave him the will and told him. " I dont want it lying around here". He then goes on to say that he "Lost the papers". On a side note, but important one, in the introduction to the above mentioned book, the auther says that every quote was sent to the one quoted to be verefied. And besides that book there are those that heard from Yudel personaly the same thing.
him
So there is no source for a will given by the Rebbe other than the book or others who quote R Y K (sayung he "lost" it). So there is NO will that was given by the Rebbe (none of RYK "friends" ever claimed that the Rebbe gave them an order to carry a will). the whole thing is an invention by his "friends". There is NO second will period.
You still haven't answered the questions. Why would the Rebbe have given him a signed copy, if he would just claim later that he lost it?
Why aren't the papers from 1990 worth anything? Because they don't say the names you want?
The fact is the Rebbe trusted RYK, made him his personal executor, appointed him an officer in each of his corporations.
Obviously, there are many who are extremely envious of that trust and are grasping at straws to say and do anything to discredit him, just as there were during the Rebbe's lifetime.
RYK managed to keep the Rebbe's trust for the past 50 years and will continue for the next 50 years.
To focus on million's point: Why would the Rebbe give a *signed* paper that is to the *dislike* of RYK to *RYK* and not to RZG (or to RLG to give it to RYK , or better to Rav Piekarsky to give it to RZG)?
The "signed" will loy hoyo veloy nivroh in the eyes of the *Rebbe*.
According to all of you why would the Rebbe not trust Yudel?
And by the way, are we talking about the same person who the Rebbe fired, and then rehired after some other mazkirim asked on his behalf to be rehired?
By the way since when did yudel work for the Rebbe for 50 years? he was acutualy hired as Rabbi Hodokovs secertary.
I think its worthless to repeat all that i have said before regardind the papers of the 90's.
it seems you all have a problem addresing yudels own words.
You fellows just argue the same tired points. Look at Schneur posts, there is always something new to learn from him and there is nothing new in your ramblings. Cut it off please.
So after firing him, and re-hiring him on the advice of RLG etc.. he makes him his executor?!?
If that's not enough, he makes him an officer of his corporations??
Why isn't RLG in ANY of the corporate boards? from the 30 odd names there he didnt make the cut?
people like Shimon Goldman, Shmuel Fox their in, but the Choshuver RLG no??
C'mon, you guys have a senseless hatred of RYK, not baseless, it's base is the blinding envy that guids you. Face it, the Rebbe trusted him. If you dont like him, there are others in the board like Rabbis Shemtov, Raskin, Morosow etc.
Oh, but you probably dont like them either.
BTW RYK was never R. Hodakovs secretary, that was RBK. Nice try.
Tzemach,
Sorry to tie up the blog with nonsense, it seems the hatred will never allow for an open debate.
I do wonder why Laible was not in the corporate structure. Perhaps the Rebbe wanted Laible around to help him not in running things. Or maybe he had Laibel in mind for bigger and better things, and it was up to the Chasidim to see it.
A more likely scenario is YK initiated formal incorporation. Bolstered by his exposure to lawyers, some of them might have told him that is was a good idea. Because he run the project he had a greater say in all the invitees to the trustees table. He probably deliberately excluded LG and BK as part of shrewd power struggle. In fact he might have prepared the lists. Slipped it to the Rebbe as on of those "who cares, unimportant things". And in case the Rebbe asked about LG he might have told the Rebbe that "This is not what he does, blah, blah, WE need him for more important things". Generally I know that any Project Manager has a big say in composition of his team. This entire filing might have been done without LG knowing about it. And in fact it would not have raised eyebrows as this was the thing he YK has done, it was his department. I doubt that anyone saw this as YK maneuvering for power at that time.
At one point I was thinking of forging a will with Laibel Groner's name on it as rebbe and give it to the FORWARD whose reporters I was very close to and who got at least 2 headline Lubavitch stories from me.
But then I thought who would believe Label a rebbe ?
Who cares who runs Merkoz or Lishchas .. or machne ;as the Rebbe once said there are no roshei Chabad. As Adali Stevenson asked the Russian UN ambassador in 1962 give me a yes or no was there a will leaving the name of a new spiritual leader ?
Why are you so obbsesd with laibel? Who ever mentioned him? To me it makes alot of sence why he was not mentioned. He never was involved with the mosdos and was just a mashbak.
It seems that like a good jew you like to answer one question with another question, and avoid the facts.
A thoeretical question: If there is a signed will, whould you honor it or not?
The Rebbe would never force a spiritual leader upon his people. This needs to be chosen by the people for the people. Since when did any Chabad Rebbe choose the next Rebbe. Did the previous Rebbe make the choice? NO! It was the chassidim.
"anons", you do not know from whence you speak. The Rebbe Maharash became Rebbe on the strength of Tzemach Tzedek’s tzavoh (contested by the Kapuster branch). The Freierdiker Rebbe became Rebbe on the strength of the Rebbe Rashab’s tzavoh.
you might have confused The Rebbe with Abraham Lincoln.
what did the tzemach tzedeks tzavah say? Also the Rashab did not use the words "my son should be the next Rebbe.
Are the posters of the Charters suggesting that Merkos was not incorporated until 1990?
Barry Gourary made it clear to me years before the rebbe died that there would be no new rebbe. A zavaah itself would not be enough. It would only be effective if the rebbe showed extraordinary hiskarvus to that person in his lifetime.
I am not familiar with such a person.
In addition Barry felt that showing such special attention may have worried the rebbe in the sense that he may have grooming a potential future opponent.
Most of Barry's prophecies about Lubavitch were fufilled , some in an uncanny fashion.I presume because Channa Gourary and Mushka were close friends and did in fact talk to each other and to Barry...
Shneur, so what does Barry predict for Lubavitch's future? Another 100 years without a REbbe?
Barry's prediction in about 1991 : a loose confederation of synagogues and schools paying lip service to the Nusach of Lubavitch and garb and memory of the 7th rebbe. In his words not much different than the Nusach Ari shuls all over the USA prior to 1940.
I can see it happening vehamayvin yavin.
I also am privy to the Rebbe's own verbal prediction. But the people in CH and 770 will not be happy...
Is there any evidence that the Rebbe wished there to be a successor?. And it not, wouldn't it be going against his wishes to appoint another Rebbe?
Shneur, don't fret so much about making people unhappy. Please tell us what the Rebbe's "verbal prediction" was.
If the rebbe wished to have a successor would he not have shown some special attention to someone? Perhaps a Schneersohn scion or a special yeshiva bachur. I am unaware of such special attention being betowed on anyone .
By the way the rebbe in my opinion had the opportunity to play a role in the upbringing of his niece Dalia whose father died in 1951,her mother was a poor widow who made a living by teaching in a Lubavitz school in London. I am certain a little gentle persuasion could have coaxed her in adopting a frumer lifestyle and having Dalia study in Beth Rivka. Then she could marry the Rebbe's choice for leadership. Instead she is a secular Jew and her 2 sons are too. a tragedy the only 2 great grandchildren of Rav Levik secular Jews ! Sound far fetched ? hardly.
Let's not speculate about people we know nothing about
Obviously, things the Rebbe said and did to try to influence the public are open to debate by that same public. However, the Rebbe kept his relationship with his niece on a family level, and I can respect their privacies.
Incidentally, Rav Shach’s grandchildren are not frum either. Coincidence?
Friends, Rav Shachs's son is a Modern orthodox rabbi (he was a rebbe in the Yeshiva of Flatbush)and some of his kids are not religious.
Rav Shachs son in law is Horav hagaon Reb Meir Bergman Rosh Kollel Rashbi in Bnai Brak a leading Torah scholar. His sons are all rabbonim and mechabrim. Rav Shach has erliche doros . Please do not be motze shem ra on erliche Yidden. Keshot atzmecho in terms of "speculating" about people you do not know !!!!
I found the prediction hard to belive. For one, the properties today are controlled by families that will be supporting these mosdois for a long time. Second, I can not see how 20,000 Lubavitchers will all fry out in the next 50 years. There is too much property at stake. Third, with the advent of head shliach in every state how can these properties dissolve. Chabad of the Marina is a good example of this.
No one is talking becoming non-religious. we are talking a watering down of Chasidic standards , ritual, clothing and scholarship.The creation of a sort of Chabad culture rather than Chabad chassiduth. All of which is going on as we talk.
And who knows what will happen in 20 years.
For all its impossibility , Lubavitch needs a spiritual leader in order to preserve its genuine spiritual and Chassidic identity.
Schneur - yasher kayach on setting the record straight re mishpachas Maran Harav Schach, zechuso togein oleinu !
I find the relationship of Lubavitchers (of various types) to Maran quite interesting to observe.
But whatever you think of him - der emes bleibt der emes - the truth remains the truth.
Can we get off the shach subject?
Is rav Shach like kryptonite to Lubavitcher chasidim?
I am very friendly with a chashuve young Admor in Bnai Brak. And he speaks highly of Rav Shach.The Belzer rebbe is also a good friend of the late rosh yeshiva.he Slonimer rebbe rav Shaom Noach ws also a friend of the rosh yeshiva. Rav Vozner , and other hasidic gedolim were also friendly to him.
Rav Shach was also marbitz Teyre to thousands of Zurba D'Rabbanan and through his disciples to tens of thousands of others .
So whether one agres with him or not he was not a no body and was in the vanguard of rebuilding Tora in Israel.
Schneur,
are you unaware of the comments directed by the Rebbe to Rav Shach, and Vice Versa?
Und nach vi ! But they are both in "alma dekeshot" und zay veissen der emes !
Just get off the Shach subject, it sickens me
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