mentalblog.com comments:
Amazing ! Chabad continues to attempt recovery of its texts in Russia accompanied by lots of publicitity and confrontational behavior. Yet it has been a total failure until now.
When it came to humans and jews the same group claimed that shtadlanus was the only way to deal with the russians do not make waves Tgey were opposed to demonstrations and other such public manidestations in support of russian Jews, We will get jews out with diplomacy and hard cash like the instance of Dr. Germann Branover. Why do things in the category of Domem klike the Chabad library get more attention in Chaabd than living creatures called Jews ???
Schneur, have you been informed that Russia has had a change of government since the days of U.S.S.R.? Just checking. (It does not become you to sound like that virulent anti-Semite that posts here from time to time.)
This is being done by Cunin mostly singlehandidly. The Rebbe always wanted this to be done quietly. Cunin always does things loudly. Additionally, this may be hurting the Shluchim in Russia. I wonder if Lazar (Head Shliach to Russia) is happy about this.
Why can't R'Lazar get the books back? In pictures he seems to be such good friends with Putin. The books are sitting in a storage room. What are they worth to the Russians? They are priceless to Chabad Chasidim, probably even other Chasidim as well...Make that priceless to all Jewish people. They belong in the hands of Jews.
Since Putin has an absolute power today in Russia, the question is good. But Lazar being a court Jew probably can't speak unless spoken to. And then he is ordered to give out medals.
Berl, these confrontational methods were being used when the Commuists were still in power.
I always found it strange that when it came to Jews, Lubavitch told us sha ! shtill , lets use diplomacy and shtadlanuth, but when it comes to books lets make a tummel in the Lenin library , fight with goyim physically and scream and holler.(hisgarus beUmos beoffen mamash !)
In this case Shmais has the right answer these methods have the stamp of the NER HAMAARAVI on them.
Frankly if diplomacy were used exclusively , I am willing to bet that the books would be released , but they would have to be welcomed in a quiet manner too, not in a way to embaress Putin and Russian.
As to awareness in a change in govt. I have 3 comments 1. Goyim bleybin goyim if they are Putin or Brezhnev. 2. Your comment should be directed at Chief Rabbi Lazar , as he too should know that er darf zich nisht azeifil unter... to these Goyim 3. Your comment about awareness of political change is the reason Chabad as a communal and political organization is in a state of limbo today especially in Israel as everything the rebbe said 20 years ago under different circumstances still applies !
"... these methods have the stamp of the NER HAMAARAVI on them.
Frankly, if diplomacy were used exclusively, I am willing to bet that the books would be released, but they would have to be welcomed in a quiet manner too, not in a way to embarrass Putin and the Russians."
In all this you might just be correct.
"... as everything the Rebbe said 20 years ago under different circumstances still applies!" Now you are talking. This IS a serious and important issue to ponder.
Perhaps Barry S. Gourary is the legal owner of his great grandfather's library ? How is AGUCH the owner of this collection ? Judge Sifton ruled narrowly on the status of the library of Rabbi Joseph I. Schneersohn.No mention in any decision about the library of rabbi S. B. Schneersohn or its connection to the statement made by the librarian of the Conservative Jewish theological Seminary in regards the communal nature of the 6th rebbe's collection.
Berel Levine wrote that secular Schneerson's (Kopuster grandchildren) living in Russia were also making a claim for the collection.
How are YK, and SC the legal owners of this collection al pi halachah ?
1. In the US, the previous ruling will probably be easily used as precedent to make all books belonging to the Freirdiker Rebbe (directly or as part of his inheritance from his father) property of Aggudas Chassidei Chabad.
2. In Russia, it is another matter entirely. However, the Kapuster grandchildren could hardly lay claim on the Lubavitcher Rebbe's inheritance. It would not be difficult to prove that the Rebbe Rashab would not want such a transfer.
- והאריכות בזה אך למותר
על פי דין הרי אין כל הבדל בין הספרים ברוסיא לבין אלו פה
Communists are also in power in China today, but you will not suggest that one must deal with them in the same way as one would deal with Mao. Or would you? I will not defend the confrontational nature of the way S.C. is dealing with Russia now - I simply do not know whether he is correct in doing so. But let’s not change the facts to fit our opinions: the first S.C. confrontation with Russia took place well into the Glanstnost period.
Cunin should send his body, the Terminator to get the books. I can see a sequel "The secrets of Da vinci Code in Lenin Library"
I have no time to research when Aguch first ent to Russia. Is it hisgaruth beUmoth or not ? I understand that in fact you agree that the tactics used are confronttional and non-productive. Thats the important prt. they also increase anti Semitism and give the Russkies the idea that these books are worth a real mint.
The question of ownership is not a question for a US court to decide. Its for a Russian court. Even if Gourary sued for return in the US neither you or I are legal scholars. and I see many distinctions between the 2 cases especially in light of the fact that the Rebbe himself is no longer with us.When did Aguch have legal elections for its board ? In 1950 ?
Ah, buts lets not forget halacha. After all we all claim to be Orthodox Jews Do you really believe a serious besdin like Rabbi Vozner , the Badaatz of the Eda or the London Kedassia Beth Din would award all the books to Aguch ?
Again Barry is not only a yoresh of the rashab, he is the only yoresh !
Besdins like peshora not din !
I have a good friend who spoke to a person who used to work in the german embassy. This friend said that he offered to help get the books out his quiet way but the Lubavitchers wanted it their way, Brash gadol. He was convinced that the quiet way would have gotten them out.
HALOCHO
All I said is that the דין would not be different in the Russian case than it would have been in the original US case. Barry Gourary’s status of the יורש of the Rebbe Rashab would only be relevant if the Freirdiker Rebbe and his Barry’s mother had both passed away before the Rebbe Rashab or if Rebbe Rashab had left Barry a ירושה. But since all of the Rebbe Rashab property had already been transferred into the Freirdiker Rebbe’s ownership, I fail to see the relevance of Barry’s relationship to the Rebbe Rashab. Please enlighten me.
Disclaimer: I do not even begin to pretend that I know how Rav Wosner would have ruled in the original case either. Though somehow I doubt he would have said that דין ירושה אינו חל because the Freirdiker Rebbe is still alive... He might have agreed that the Frierdiker Rebbe had made his library נחלת רבים, but I doubt Rav Wosner would do that either.
US LAW
As to the US law - are you even sure the Russian collection was not already part of the old case? But even if it was not, I would bet on AGUCH wining such a case, should it be brought to court.
GOIM
I am not at all sure that taking Russia to task in their own courts is Jewishly inappropriate. I would imagine that responsible and INFORMED people על אתר וכגון ר' יצחק כהן have already voiced their opinion on the matter to S.C. But I am fairly sure that calling Rabbi Lazar a "Court Jew" is definitely inappropriate for "those that claim to be orthodox Jews". Do you also feel it is wrong to sue the Swiss for Jewish gold? The Poles for Jewish property? Are all these actions OK because they are not driven by Chabad?
MORAL – ETHICAL "RIGHT OR WRONG"
Setting aside all issues of Halocho and law, I feel it is "right" for these treasures to be in the Aguch Library available for all to see, and not in the hands of an elderly gentleman who is not going to be around forever (may he live till 120 and be healthy).
Disclaimer: this is not to discuss any $$$ reimbursement he should or should not have received (especially since I know we will not agree on this at all).
My last comment on the Russian Chabad Library. This is a distinctive collection not part of the library of rabbi Joseph I. Schneesohn in Warsaw. Rabbi J. Schneersohn never inherited these books or the collection. They were not part of what Dr. Marx was talking about.Judge Sifton's ruling was not a psak klloli for all Schneerson books as he even allowed Barry to keep those seforim on his grandfathers work desk. These were not considered part of a "library". Was the Rayaats siddur, chumash Tillim tanya , Eyn Yaakov part of a libary that belonged to aguch. That is very far fetched.
According to halacho and Civil law the enjoyment of property by many is not a reason to deny a Yorsh his inheritance. Yes, many may profit intellectually from the library being part of a pseudopublic library , but that is no justification from thir removal from a legal heir.
Since all of this is pure speculation and barry laughed when I spoke to him about this in 1989 or 1990 its not real now. If Barry had biological yorshim , Aguch would have some issues to deal with.
I also wonder what would happen if a grandson of Reb Mendel Schneersohn appeared or if Dalia Roitman took up the battle ??
A random comment I am not excited by the Jewish monetary actions against Switzerland etc. Restitution is moral and obligatory, but public abuse by Jews is hisgarus beUmos. Strictly forbidden causes anti Jewish feelings. So I do not discriminate against Lubavitch.
My aprents were KZ survivors and they never went about in a confrontational manner demanding to be restituted. neither did most if not all survivors. Diplomacy did the job.
Taken from COL.ORG.IL:
According to 'Mishpacha Magazine' when President Bush met with President Putin demanding the return of the Schneerson Library, Putin replied that Rabbi Berel Lazaar is willing to receive the books and leave them in Russia. 'Why then must I return them to the U.S.?', asked Putin, leaving President Bush perplexed.
So far, Agudas Chasidei Chabad members have won in two court cases against the Russian Government but President Putin disregards those. Rabbi Sholom DovBer Levine responded to this saying that Chabad will proceed with the case and Russia will have to conform to the verdict since Russia maintains substantial assets in the U.S.
Rabbi Sholom DovBer Levine, a member of the Chabad delegation mentioned in the article, told Chabad Online that he has no idea how 'Misphacha' writer, Mr. Aharon Granot, obtained the contents of the conversation between President Putin and Rabbi Lazaar.
And Chabad gives a gold medal to Putin at Auschwitz.
What is more important: finding out information about Raoul Wallenberg - one of the righteous of the nations, getting Putin to MENTION the Jews' slaughter in the Holocaust or retrieving a library of books, mostly secular ones, btw (including Dante's Inferno)? Chabad has some seriously skewed priorities!
mr anonymous your name is probably shmarya from failedmessiah.com
anons, please pick a nick name.
Chabad should set up a library in Moscow to house the RaShaB's collection. That way they need never leave Mother Russia and yet remain under Chabad control. Someone like Yehoshua Mundshine can be flown in from Jerusalem and appointed Chief curator of the collection.
Commenting by HaloScan
