mentalblog.com comments:
אולי סבב השם זה שיגדל משה בבית המלכות להיות נפשו על מדרגה העליונה בדרך הלימוד והרגילות ולא תהיה שפלה ורגילה להיות בבית עבדים.... ועוד דבר אחר כי אלו היה גדל בין אחיו ויכירוהו מנעוריו לא היו יראים ממנו כי יחשבוהו כאחד מהם - אבן עזרא שמות ב:ג
Please read the Ibn Ezra posted above(especially the last part) and think about the Jewish appropriateness of your history research here. I, too, would love to know many of the things you are curious about. But I ask you, is it good for the Jews?
Incidentally Deutsch mentions the yerusha books again but with different reasoning. He says that perhaps Rayatz was angered by the modern dress that Rebbe was wearing during the weeding (brown suite, brown shoes and white dinner gloves). Whatever, I am personally for modern dress and for college. I brought up this quote because I think this entire Rashab’s library deal is completely irrational and just may be there are other forces at play.
"think about the Jewish appropriateness of your history research here"
This is a complicated issue but I feel that seeing Rebbe as human does take away from my feeling about this person, just the opposite. And in away this is what this blog is about. The flip side is 770 today for all to see. And who knows where is the truth? I certainly do no claim to have the answers. But I do this deliberately.
This is why if anyone stands a chance of being a Rebbe in Chabad today it will be someone from off the scene like the Tzibener in Yerushaliam. I forgot even how he is related to the Rebbe. Is there perhaps a serious movement today that wants a new Rebbe? Would the Rebbe have wanted a new Rebbe today? Or is it the will of the REbbe for maddness that is going on today with the power struggles.
Atlas, I agree complete dehumanization seems not to be good even for hiskashrus (why be mekushar to a computer?) but please be cognizant of the fine line you walk here in terms of serving an authentic Jewish purpose (as stated earlier).
Ibn Ezra does not mean to say that G-d was afraid Jews would see something inappropriate in Moshe h"v. No, he is saying that Jews might not be able to see G-dliness in all of Moshe’s humanity. And then they would loose a chance to have Moshe.
... they might THINK OF HIM that he is [but] one of them.
I am sorry to sate the obvious but depending on once point of view some say that we do not have Moshe anymore. There are fifty million web sites that perpetuate an image of a flawless Messiah Jew. This is not one of the sites.
Sorry you missed my point. My question is: do you have an authentic Jewish purpose in mind? If you do, I would love to understand what it is.
I don’t have an "authentic" purpose. My purpose is to connect to other people about the subjects I care about.
So then if something you said here would, ostensibly, cause real harm to some Jews but allow you connect with more people, you would still say it? No holds barred?
Someone who screams Yehi 15 times a day does no harm. But saying that the Rebbe was wearing brown shoes can shake that that faith to the core.
Personally I never thought much about Chabad until I read R' Deutsche's book. The only image I had of the Rebbe were the Mitzvah Tank in the area when I was a kid and the messianic image portrayed on 770live.com.
After reading "Larger than Life" however,I realized that a true churban had taken place in the world of Chabad that I believe is a calamity for all of k'lal Yisroel. Gedolei oilam from Warsaw were @ the Rebbe's chassuna. that would not occur today. You can argue all day long whether today's gedolim are what they were in yorn tzurik, but the fact remains that the chassidus of the Alter Rebbe ZTVK"L has been partially transformed into a Messianic cult.
Reading Larger Than Life made me grieve this loss because it brought everything back to Earth, which in my opinion reflected the true gadlus of the rebbe, and not his messianic alter ego. How did this occur? How did chashuve talmidei chachamim get so caught up in this fervor, and how can the situation be remedied?
The Rebbe was a real person with tremondous koiches. When I see clips on Chabad .org from the 1980's and earlier I think to myself how did this happen. When I ponder the issue I wonder do they really think the Alter Rebbe, any of the previous rebbes, or any Godol b'Yisroel could agree. I can only imagine the Rogatchover's reaction were he to daven in 770 today. The fact of the matter is that ultimately everything will result in the geula b'mihayra b'yamainu
Stop searching for you will see no results
search in the Torah and mitzvos
"Someone who screams Yehi 15 times a day does no harm. But saying that the Rebbe was wearing brown shoes can shake that that faith to the core." Please note that neither statement has anything AT ALL to do with what I asked you. Did you notice my usage of the words "would, ostensibly"? I did not accuse you of having cause any harm, I was merely trying to ascertain where you WOULD draw the line, what, if anything, you WOULD consider taboo and why (since you were not governed by "any authentically Jewish purpose"). It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion without parameters. I would, for example, not bother quoting Iben Ezra, had I known that an "authentically Jewish purpose" was not on your mind here.
Obedience does not necessarily negate our ability to express an opinion. I believe that we have a significant zone of freedom. Our thought processes are not reduced to sycophantic expressions. Our status as Lubavitchers does not carry with it an obliteration of thought.
yossi, "obliteration of thought" is something you have managed to accomplish for yourself quite well prior to joining Lubavitch.
Frankly I think speculation in this matter is just that - pure speculation.
It is important to remember that not only was rabbi Menachem ZTL a human with a wide range of emotions and relationships, but so was his father in law and other family members. The private diary of the 6th rebbe reveals much about his particular personality.
We do not really know the family dynamica and I fail to see the particular importance to Klal Yisroel as to the reason the Rebbe did not get his seforim.
After all Berl has informed us that his father in law promised him something much greater and there does not seem to be a document that guaranteed Rabbi Menachem this yerusha either...(I have no doubt that such a promise was never made.)
I only find it interesting that the rebbe felt it necessary to go public with the story. But after that its speculation.
By the way the theory that the great Ibn Ezra posits in Berl's fine post is the reason we have very few gedolim today. Everyone goes to the same school, plays on the same street and we all know each other.
People like the Rebbe, the rav the Chazon Ish and the Brisker rav lived rarified lives . They grew up in semi isolation and burst on the scene almost in a completely formed way.Today everyone knows everyone else from childhood so familiarity breeds contempt (by the way a reason R. S. Gourary did not make it to the top !)
THe Tchebiner brothers will never be Lubavitcher rebbe now.
Firstly they are not Chabad followers. Secondly they had a chance to be Rebbe if their father (Rav baruch Shmon Schneersohn) entrusted them to the Rebbe's care or tutelage becayee chayose bealma dain. There are conflicting stories as to the wishes of the rebbe regarding this. Speaking to a prominent Galicianer rav in Brooklyn friendly to Lubavitch and Tchebin , he told me that this is a "bobe maase".
But you are right if there will be another leader he will be some one who is an "outsider" who bursts on the scene bemelo hadro.
Can you get us pictures of the Tchibener brothers?
I am certain they have appeared in Kol haOlam kulo. Reb Baruch Shimon looked like a real Schneersohn behind his Chassidic eye wear. He was a close cousin of the rebbetzin, although he was a Galitzianer.His father was a fairly regular Jew ( a chassidishe baalhaboys), who travelled to Belz.
Its a shame that one of his sons was not groomed to head Lubavitch, but I guess no ones fault.
Why is it too late now?
Every kid in Lubavitch knows that the Rebbe worn midern dress at the wedding. So why say that finding this out will "shake their faith to the core"?
what about rabbi s.b. schneeron in flatbush,from what i understand he is the rebbes second cousin?
Rabbi Shalom Ber S. is not rebbe material . He is also a Bobover chasid. The rebbe could have groomed his 2 sons as possibilities. Both are merchants.
In order to be rebbe some form of hiskarvus from the previous rebbe is needed. Who knows in 25 years from now it may not be necesary.
Sholom Ber Schneerson's sons, though very fine yungerlite, are not even remotely rebbe material. they are both wealthy businessmen, though the younger one had a head start as he is sholom ber drizin's son in law...
One wonders how they would turn out had they been groomed for greatness.
I was told that rabbi Schneur Zalman Schneersohn of Paris groomed his son R. Sholom Ber to be a rebbe. And lo also beyado bekama ofanim.
Zalman Butman was married to Zalman Schneersohn's sister.Hence Mulle could have been a contender too... Yoel Kahan is married to Mulle's sister.
It seems that after the War Zalman Schneersohn and the Rayaatz were no longer that close.
when shmuel butman's mother (yehudis schneerson) married her husband zalman butman it sort of eliminated any chance her offspring had to become rebbe as zalman butman wasn't what they had expected her to marry.
and anyways, this branch of the schneerson family are just distant relatives of the house of schneersoHn.
as the rebbe said of his marriage: "der tug vus hut frabunden mir mit aich un aich mit mir"
What is the relation of Butman's and Leah's Kahn mother to the Chabad Rebbes?
The Butmans mother Mrs. Yehudis Schneerson Butman and her brother R' Zalman Schneerson were first cousins of the Rebbe's father Reb Levi Yitzchok of Dniepropetrovsk.
Their fathers (Baruch Schneur and Menachem Mendel) were sons of Levi Yitzchok who in turn was a son R' Baruch Shalom eldest son of the Tzemach Tzeddek.
The Rebbe and Barry are 4th cousins by blood relation.
Given that most Schneersohns were becoming non religious, the marriage of Zalman Schneerson's sister to Zalman Butman was probably regarded as an acceptable shiduch as reb Zalman Butman was a harzike chassidische Yid.
In a menoir by an old tamim in KFAR CHABAD about 15 years ago it was noted as an aside that Rav Zalman Schneerson came to Tomche Tmimim yeshiva against his father's wishes. He wanted his son to go to a Gymnasium .
This was not at all unusual in those days even in the homes of prominent rabbis and rebbes,
One still wonders why Rabbi menachem Schneerson and his brillliant brother Reb leib Schneerson never went to Tomche Tmimim. That yeshiva routinely accepted barmitzva age bachurim . Given the fact that in 1914 the rebbe was 12 and the yeshiva was in the Ukraine then the question becomes more acute..
Attention MIB. The rebbe did not speak Galician , Ukranian or Polish Yiddish. He spoke the White Russian dialect. Please kindly take the time to transliterate the rebbes words accordingly.
When Zalman Schneerson's sister Yehudis married Zalman Butman it was forwned upon.
In fact, both Zalman and their father Menachem Mendel boycoted the wedding.
Att MIB
just wondering how you have all this information??? as zalmen made the sheduch of both chatche feigin & zalman butmen to his sisters
whether he zalman made the shidduch or not, it's no secret neither he nor his father mendel were attended the wedding.
is it "shas" as in schneerson?
sorry you are right...
and it is shas as in schneerson
att: shas,
are you of the r' baruch shalom schneerson eineklach?
yes, not that many others around with the name schneerson, you come from other sons
yes, not that many others around with the name schneerson,who come from other children of the tzemach tzedek
That Rabbi Zalman Schneerson groomed his son as Rebbe is a Bubeh Mayseh.
To MIB, I think you have it wrong. I believe R. Zaman Schneerson was a direct decendant of the Tzemach Tzedek
R.zalman schneerson was four generations from the tzemach tzedek,his father was r.menachem mendel(uncle of the rebbes father),whos father was R.levi yitzchak, whos father was R.boruch sholom eldest son of the tzemach tzedek
as im looking back at previous comments , i see that MIB wrote all this information...
how are isiah berlin and yehudi menhuin related to the rebbe?
moishetambul, there is a snipet here about them on Bloghead: Bloghead: Isaiah Berlin and the tendency to totalitarianism in the Chareidi world.
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