mentalblog.com comments:
Scholarly and spiritual Rebbes got us nowhere. My vote is for the Rebbes that know how to dance.
Schneur - I think all the turmoil and machlokes among Chassidim you described will turn off some people and make them lean more toward the non-Chassidic Yeshivishe (or even modern orthodox) velt. Maybe not hard-core Chassidim - but there are many people who are in the middle and can lean either way. It seems that the relative calm in the Chassidic world after WWII until recently may have been only a temporary lull. People read and hear about all these things and it has an effect (even if it is ignored and not publicized in various propaganda publications).
Whom do you have in mind?
I want more pictures ;).
what about ponivitch? What goes around comes around just give it a chance.
I have a lot to say about this, but time does not permit me at present.
It was interesting to watch over a hundred bochurim yesterday trying to get into the Bobover Mestivta, which was locked and barred by police (eventually busses took them elsewhere to learn). For the meantime Reb Ben-Tzion is in control of the main Shul, but the Mesivta (and the camps, I think) were in the name of the late Rebbe, Reb Naftuli, and thus Rav Unger (R’ Naftlui’s son-in-law) seems to have a claim. There are powerful individuals, with money, behind both candidates – but as Schneur said in the past, an individual that grew up among the group gets too well know, and this makes it hard to be Rebbe. Rav Unger has the respect of most of Bobov since he has been closely involved for so long, while Reb Ben-Tzion grew up in the mosdos and among the Chassidim. They know him too well.
Throughout Chassidc history this was a non-issue, they would just move into a new town and set up there. Look at the Divrei Chaim, or the Riziner – their son’s all became Rebbes of Chassdusin in various towns; or the Tzemach Tzedek, who (almost) all his sons became Rebbes. This problem seems to be an American/modern-day one; the world is much smaller and there is much more money and power invested.
This does turn-off many yidden today, as they look at people like Rab Shteinman, who lives in a simple home and eats a couple slices of bread and not much else, and compare them to what “Rebbes” live like. I think it is unfortunate that these groups keep naming new Rebbes; all it does is trivialize the Rebbes of the past.
As the last commentator noted so aptly the problem of succession took a new twist in the US and Israel.
Not only are there only about 7-8 safe cities world over to which a rebbe could establish himself comfortably worldwide, but unlike their counterparts in pre-War Europe most large and mid size chassidic groups have institutions which includes property, jobs and authority . Thus if Bobov had no "mosdos" like Peshvorsk in Antwerp, having 2 rebbes would not be such a big deal. But now the question is who runs the schools, camps, synagogues, kolel, Girls institutions, Gemachs, etc. This translates into money and non-spiritual authority.
In turn this assists the new rebbe in his spiritual programs.
Yes, this turn of events has invaded the Lithuanian Yeshivas in a major way too. Both Ponieviesz and Hebron have such problems. Grodna in Ashdod is already split.
In Poland and Lithuania there were splits like this too except there was not enough money to establish new mosdos so readily.
In the Yeshiva world the issues are not exactly alike but very close.
At least there its learning thats the key factor.
There is a well known parable of the previous Klausenberger Rebbe about the current state of affairs:
There was once a great galach that died. Upon his death a new galach was named to replace him, with all the appropriate pomp and circumstance. Now, the prime responsibility of the galach was the Sunday service, and his sermon – for which he had a week to prepare. As soon as possible, he entered the galach’s library and stated to look through the ancient texts, to put his first big sermon together – but, to his chagrin, he was unable to make heads-or-tales of anything there. Days passed, but he still had no idea what the ancient books meant, so he quickly took the old galach’s writings from previous sermons, made a few modifications, and walah! He’s got a sermon. After a few weeks of this, he concludes that no galach EVER understood what those texts meant, and everyone did the same as he. This is the story of most of today’s Rebbes...
Parenthetically, I feel bad for Ben-Tzion. He’s stuck, with no choice really; he has the responsibility to continue the “royal line” and carry on his father’s legacy, and he has a multi-million dollar truly tasteless and ugly shul to boot…
But for the sake of truth there are erliche Rebbes. Its just that the hereditary manner of succession is no longer working.
Even though I grew up in a very Lithuanian-Chabad culture very sceptical of the Chagath type rebbe, I have met erliche rebbes. Its important for a rebbe not to take himself toos eriously.
There are always disagreements. The question is how they are managed - if they get violent, out of control.....That is what people will look at to see in which camp things are more peaceful.
Schneur
of course there are Erlicher Rebbes , but for a rebbe being erlich doesn't cut it. He needs to be able to read a kvitel, make life-altering decisions and lead the community.
"Mien fier'l vet tluyen biz Moshiach vet kumen" -- Rabbenu Nachman ben Feige mi-Breslev
I suggest that the warring Bobovers all start learning Likkutei Moharan.
How many different Breslev groups are at War with each other ?
Lets see rabbi Schick, Na Na Na, (Odesser) Rabbi Kenig, (Tsefas) Rabbi Berland, (Old City of Jslm) the main line group in Meah Shearim and I hear still others. Certainly Rav Nachman's fire still burns brightly but in different candles and in different flames !
Likute Moharan is a great sefer and is Nitzchi, but so is Tanya kaddisha,Noam Elimelech, and other seforim based on the teachings of the BESHT.
I met some of the Breslev greats like rav levi Yitzchok Bender unbelieveable zaddik, so was the case with Rav Gdalye koenig meredik !But alas even that group is not free of machlokes.
Breslev has no rebbe , yet the machlokes has spread even there.
At least they never fell into the trap of nominating actors to play Rebbe.
I wonder if most/all groups could have benefited from this technique...
Sad to say, Reb Schneur, your words are true. Breslev, too, has its internecine strife. Note that I did not suggest joining any group -- only learning RN's heilige sefer, which speaks to everyone in a unique way. (Which is one of the reasons why the Breslev community has become so complex in recent years, as its numbers have increased.)
And I must agree with you about all the sifrei tzaddikim. However, in the case of Breslev, there is a difference.
In Stolin, for example, one becomes a Stoliner Chassid, davens etc. in the Stoliner beis medrash, asks the Rebbe for hadrochah, joins the chaburah, AND learns Beis Aharon for an hour before Minchah on Shabbos afternoon. In Breslev, the focal point is the seforim; this is where one "meets" Reb Nachman, and this is what sharfs the hiskashrus and avodas Hashem al pi Reb Nachman's eitzos. The living leaders, however great they may be in their own right, are supposed to be mashpiyim (in Chabad language), not surrogate rebbes.
An example of what I mean: I once gave a Likkutei Moharan to the Bobover beis medrash. I had seen that they had one or two Breslever seforim that were old and hard to read (small Rashi osios), so I assumed they had no anti-Breslev bias; but the LM I donated was a new drik that had nekudos, several perushim, sichos, and maftechos. Weeks passed, and it never appeared on the shelves. Finally I inquired, was directed to the gabbai, and asked him what the problem was. He politely retrieved the sefer from his office (B"H for that) and returned it to me, explaining -- as if his logic would be obvious to any rational person -- that Bobov has no bias against Breslev ... but the other LM in the shul is almost unreadable. If a bochur or other innocent soul were to pick up the edition I wanted to donate, he might UNDERSTAND something of its contents. "And if he did, he might become a Breslever -- and we can't have that!"
I told him that I understood completely, and thanked him for retuirning the sefer.
Now do you see what I mean?
Chabakuk Elisha, they are trying this "technique" in other groups as we speak ;) Let's see if there is any benefit...
Since there is not much content to the Bobover derech, I wonder why do they care if the have a figurehead Rebbe. Have they been corrupted by the Yeshivirsher world? I also would note that it seems at times Schneur has advocated this very strategy even for Lubavitch, considering certain candidates on his list…
Tzemach,
Yea, I guess it's not as easy as I made it sound - let's hope for the best.
Bobov, in some ways, needs a Rebbe more than others for this very reason - what else is there? What are they going to do - divide up Divrei Chaim into 365 segments to learn throughout the year? I just wish they would use a different term than Rebbe - maybe CEO?
There are 2 sides to every serious issue.
Of course its nice to say that lets not appoint a leader and we will study the texts. In the chassiduth of old this was enough. But Chassiduth today also is a series of institutions, role modeling and most important Chasidic communities serve as a bastion against the forces of assimilation and acculturation .
In the later instances having a living leader is critial.
I am not sure whom I nominated to be Lubavitcher rebbe. I doubt it was Groner or Yoel Kahan or Labkovski.If there are no candidate than thats the will of G-D.
Leadership is also something a capable person can grow into , witness the present Boyaner rebbe shlit'a who started as an American teenager and is now a very able rebbe and leader of his kehilla.
The Noam Elimelech says a very cogent vort in his Will that where there is no leader of a group, the SM becomes the leader.
I would add that better 2 rebbes for a group than a leaderless chassidic group.
But I am not stating any general principles here, just some random notes.
Re :Bobov lets not knock all Chasidic groups except for Chabad and Breslov. Their derech their mahus is what maskilim called zaddikism and what we call zaddik be'emunoso Yechaye. thats their essential philosophy. So lets not knock it . The Rebbe is a spiritual superman who elevated his chassidim and followers. This is Chagas Chassiduth. Except for the above 2 groups all other groups to a lesser or larger extent follow this derech. This includes Satmar, Vishnitz, Kluizenberg, Boston, Skver, all of Ruzhin (very much so), Munkatch etc. Some groups have a tad more philosophical bent like Toldos Aron or Slonim not that they are philosophical but their texts are a playerin their inner life.
So in fact Bobov could not exist without a rebbe as Boyan , Munkatch, Sklya, Stolin etc could not either.And they all chose a rebbe soon enough.
So it is crucial to have serious pople at the helm.I think the Boov situation will bring some hope to the world of Chassidism.
I don't really mean to knock Bobov per se; I am saddened by the sate of affairs in general, and this is only representative of a greater phenomenon.
But, do you not see a problem with installing an individual and calling him Rebbe, when that individual is no better than most of his Chassidim (I am speaking in general - not specifically Bobov)? Does that not trivialize Rebbes of the past? And does the fact that the movement "NEEDS a Rebbe" as that is their "derech" make it better? People see through this stuff, and it turns off more people than it inspires.
The point that many are missing is that any person is not a finished product. Any person can grow into a role. This role can have a profound influence on that person in many unexpected ways. It is impossible to predict the future influence of that person on his enterprise and both the enterprise and the leader are bound to be surprised in unexpected ways. I have seen this phenomenon at work many times. The role elevates an average person. They are also replete examples of many who ascended on high hopes and credentials only to disappoint.
I am going back to Schenur’s Rashag nomination as many other examples come to mind.
Tzemach, you are absolutely right.
However, not everyone successfully DOES "grow into the role;" and the role we are speaking of, is not a simple role to grow into.
The fact is that many people look around at the world today and say to themselves that Chassidus is one big fraud. They look at the Litvishe and see a level playing field - anyone can be a 'gadol.' They look at Chassidus and it's all about political posturing, family lineage, and materialism. Is this what the Baal Shem Tov came to the world to do? This is a result of installing individuals with the hope that they will grow into the job; instead they just hijack it. The ramifications of this are significant - all Chassidic Rebbes of the past 300 years, become tarnished.
There is a letter I once came across written by an individual Rebbe from the Rokeach family. He writes:
How can I sit here and deal with all these people coming to me as a Rebbe, when I have as big a Yetzer Hara as they do, and I don't believe in anything that I'm doing?
Come on, Chabakuk. There are many sincere and knowledgable talmidei chachomim in Lakewood who sit and learn Torah Lishma all day. Are you postulating that politics is not a major factor in deciding who gets picked to be the next "godol hador", and who will continue to struggle in poverty until his old age?
When and where was it ever different? I remember hearing first hand accounts of bitter power struggles in Satmar prior to the Satmar Rebbe's assumption of the leadership position. It sounded to me like someone was describing Al Capone's Chicago. It all boils down to who controls the money and the kovid (shecitah, kashrus, aliyahs ...) all the rest is background scenery. It's not that different from the daily corporate power struggles in the goyishe velt. We're kidding ourselves if we think there is a higher more loftier motive operating in our circles. It just ain't so.
By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
***This does turn-off many yidden today, as they look at people like Rab Shteinman, who lives in a simple home and eats a couple slices of bread and not much else, and compare them to what “Rebbes” live like.***
To be a Chassidic Rebbe takes alot of energy they must eat well. A Rebbe is a king a king must be respected by all members of the community and thus there are even halachik rulings that a person like that should wear a prestigious clothes have a beutifull house and the like if posible. It says in Tanya that some klipos bow down to Hashem because they see someone who they percieve to be greater than them does the same.Which is one of the reasons for the commandment to appoint a king. Is Rab Shteinman holier then Rabbi Yehudah haNossi, or Rebbe Maharash for that matter who were wealthy? Ascetism is not endorsed by the Torah for it's own sake look what the Rambam writes about it. In fact it says somewhere every Jew deserves to be as wealthy as Shlomo haMelech kal vechomer the Bobover Rebbe
***
I think it is unfortunate that these groups keep naming new Rebbes;****
Most of these Rebbes are from beis Dovid so you are trying to say that it's unfortunate that Dovid recieved the sceptre of eternal kingship over trhe Jewish people.
***
all it does is trivialize the Rebbes of the past.
Chabakuk Elisha Vitebsker
***
Why is it misnagdim usualy like only the Rebbes who died kind of like antisemites like only Jews who died ...
Do misnagdim and anthisemites think alike? If Avraham Avinu would be a Rebbe today I'm sure people with the mindset like yours would find reason to trivialize him also.After all he owned much property and went against the "normative religion" like the Lubavitcher Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a is acused of causing Chabad to stray from so called "normative Judaism" of the likes of Rabbi Dr. Berger and you...
brocha ve'hatzlocha
Ariel Sokolovsky
PS:My apology in advance if I'm not judging you correctly.I'm simply commenting on your as I see it not you as a whole since I don't have the honor of knowing you personaly.:-)
Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!
Did you all read this week's Jewish Week and its article about Bobov. Who fed the writer the lokshen of a will that was left and other such nonsense. Who named the rav zair to that title and exactly what will named him rebbe. And why is he more important than Rav Ungar. Is it that Reb Ben Zion has a better PR machine is that too a qualification to be a good rebbe.
Ariel, you're a nice guy, but I don't think you got the gist of my comments. I'm no misnaged; I also do not promote the Litvishe 'derech.'
I wish I could say that I currently have a Rebbe that I am devoted to, believe in completely and that I consider to be Moshiach. Unfortunately, I do not.
I do not think the belief that Moshiach will rise from the dead is credible (that's not to say that I think it is kefira C'V).
There are chushuve yidden, Rebbes, in the world today - the Boyaner or the Kosover Rebbe for example. But I do think that many (especially the larger) Chassidic movements have strayed far from the originally intended definition of a Rebbe - how do you define a Rebbe, and who do you propose fits your definition today (aside from your Rebbe)?
What I do see is that people are not fooled - they see many "Rebbes" and conclude that these people do not represent the values and integrity that Yiddishkeit should. Then they look at certain Litvishe 'gedolim' and perceive them as superior to the Chassidic counterparts. I do not think this is because the Litvishe derech is so intoxicating - I think it's because the "Chassidishe scene" has become so empty.
By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
1)A community gets leaders (Rebbes,Kings, Presidents etc.) it deserves.
2)Ultimatly G-d apoints the leaders wether we like it or not.
3)People are constantly strugling to find the truth.They chose other leaders if their own ones don't measure up there are Chassidim who look up to Litvishe Gedolim and there are Litvaks who look up to rebbes this has always been the case in the world nothing new...
PS: I personaly don't find "Chassidishe scene" emptier then Litvish one.
It's harder to get extra personal attention from a rebbe of a larger movement just like from a Roish Yeshivah of a large Litvish Yeshivah unless he can answer questions 24/7 like the Lubavitcher Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a http://www.igrot.com (shouldn't be too hard for him being that He is essence and being of G-d placed in human body in control of all the 10 Sefirot see Shaliach/Moshiach Sicha Erev Simchas Torah 5746 http://www.otzar770.com which is why the concept of death in the comon understanding of the term doesn't realy apply either) or unless he is any rebbe and you are liked by him or wealthy and important donor or community leader this I think is often the reality...
gut shabbos!
with respect and blessing:
Ariel Sokolovsky
Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you cannot find fault in anything, because G-d runs the world.
That is indeed true - it's also a conversation ender, and makes all points moot. With that statement we no longer should have opinions about anything; everyone should just do whatever they do - and we'll blame Hakadosh Baruch Hu for the outcome.
And if the result is that people end up less involved in Torah & Mitzvos, that's Ok... It's G-d's fault.
Ok, I think I follow you now...
THE ROOV IS THE ROOV, WHO'S MORDCHE DOVID ANYWAY?
i dont know who your talking about!
di veist gants git di shaygits!
i always knew bentsi's chasidim were nuts!
all of the sudden you know who i'm referring to.
wher is your brilliant comment mottel?!
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