mentalblog.com comments:
It took me back to those days of unspeakable pain. And I am still enraged by the smiling faces of the crowd - G-d forgive me for that. But I know the "יחי" was heart-felt, urgent and real.
י"ר שיקוים בנו במהרה "מלך ביפיו תחזינה עיניך" אמן.
I remembered that clearly, on the one hand it was sad and reminded me of Spock wheeling out Captain Pike for the show trial; on the other hand, I totally believed in the moment, and the highly deteriorated state of the Rebbe was exactly how the Ikvosoh Dimsheechaw of Moshiach would be viewable to the public. One cannot be the Messiah unless it's clear he/she is not in control of his/her own functions, but a literal Vehicle of
G-D's presence on Earth, and The Rebbe's movements were absolutely under the complete direct control of G-D as depicted in the video.
Let's not forget that the Rebbe didn't only publicly "encourage" the singing of Yechi after the stroke, but he did so before too, on the 15th of Iyar 5751 (1991). After distributing dollars, I believe, the chassidim broke out into Yechi and the Rebbe enthusiastically encouraged it. I think the video of this can be found on 770live.com
The Video shown from the 15th of Iyar 5751 needs context. When the Rebbe encouraged the singnig that night as he did the very same way to any Niggun that was sung in Shul as the Rebbe would leave Shul.
Now, was the Rebbe encouraging those saying yechi or rather the singing as he always did?
(I was there, not everyone was singing Yechi only part of the crowd)
The answer is the Rebbe was encouraging the singing and not the yechi.
The next morning the Rebbe came downstairs for Shachris about 20 miinutes after 10 AM. Twenty minnutes late.
The Rebbe was always very punctual to arrive betwween 10 and 10:05 am for Shachris.
In his Room the Rebbe spoke very strongly to Rabbi Groner how their were those among the crowd who sang Yechi to the words of Melech Hamoshiach and therfore the Rebbe could not go down untill it would be clear that this would not happen again.
It happens to be that no one ever sang this song again in the Rebbes presence (with one exception)untill the Rebbe RL had a stroke and was not physicaly able to say anything.
On Shabbos Noach 5752 -1991 six months after that video, a lone individual began to sing a song with the words that the Rebbe is Moshiach at the Shabbos farbrengen and the Rebbes face became very serious and he said "Really I should leave the Room after the words of the song were just sung". "But since I dont want to disturb the Sheves Achim Gam yachad the unity of the Jews in the Room and also because those people who sing this wont listion to me anyways, I will stay and continue the Farbrengen".
It was never said in front of the Rebbe again untill after the Stroke RL.
After the Stroke I believe the Rebbe was encouraging the singnig rather then the words, The corwd never sang anything else except of the 14th of kislev when they sang Od yishoma and the Rebbe encouraged the song as well.
The Rebbe was very happy to see the Chasidim and as wasen on 19 Kislev 5763 the Rebbe tried very hard and very painful to watch for his wishes to be understood and they were not.
But it was clear from the Rebbes public stand that the Rebbe did not want people to say he was Moshiach ever.
What can I say.
All I can say is that this was (in my opinion) Lubavitch's biggest mistake.
Most Lubavitchers today will admit it was a mistake.
Unfourtanately the damage has already been done.
What was the mistake, Tuvya? Believing it or proclaiming it? Some thirty years ago, in a mainstream (non-Chabad) yeshiva, I shared a dorm room with a Lubavitcher from Montreal. Let's call him Mendel. From time to time, groups of boys would gather to have discussions and invariably someone would ask Mendel, "What will happen to Lubavitch in 120 years, after all there doesn't appear to be a successor on the horizon." And Mendel would always answer, "It doesn't mater, the Rebbe is the Moshiach." Keep in mind, Mendel was not the son of a shaliach and he certainly wasn't gezheh. So, if Mendel believed the Rebbe was the Moshiach over 30 years ago, then which Lubavitcher didn't share the same belief? This is not a new or recent development. It has been going on for a long time. So Tuvya, what exactly was the mistake you refer to in your post: believing it or proclaiming it?
Cohen, thanks for the clarifying the context; I wasn't aware of what happened the next day, on the 16th of Iyar.... Binyamin, that story doesn't surprise me. In Hillel Goldberg's wonderful book Between Berlin In Slobodka, there's a story in the footnotes about R'Yitzchak Hutner that happened in the 1970's, I believe, where R'Hutner harshly criticises a former talmid for sending his children to a Lubavitch camp since R'Hutner said his children will come home believing the Rebbe is Moshiach. Again, this was over thirty years ago... to oversimplify, I think the primary machlokes in Lubavitch isn't whether the Rebbe is Moshiach or not, but how/if/when his status as such should be publicised or not. Already in the early 1950's, very shortly after the Rebbe's nesius, the chassid R'Avraham Pariz was actively promoting the Rebbe as Moshiach (to the Rebbe's dissatisfaction, I might add)... but in the later years, with a plethora of sichos describing how the nasi hador is the Moshiach of the dor, that 770 is Beis Rabbeinu Shebebavel and Beis Moshiach etc., it picked up.
For a number of reasons, I am glad that I was not around for the "final years," and my memories are from better times. That's not to say that I was around for the best years, as it seems to me that people who weren't around before the heart attack really missed the boat. I was only around for the early (to mid) 80's.
But I must say that the belief that the "Rebbe is Moshiach," goes all the way back, probably to the Baal Shem Tov - but definitely to the Alter Rebbe. Other (if not all or most) Chassidusin maintained this belief as well, and we see basis for this in Gemmara.
R' Nosson of Breslov said that "for him, Moshiach had already come."
Check with a Breslover for the exact quote - in case I have the language wrong.
Other chassidim believe that their Rebbe is Moshiach? Which chassidim?
Also, was R' Nosson speaking as a yochid when he allegedly claimed R' Nachman to be Moshiach, or was it the common belief of the Breslov movement, then and now? They have not appointed another Rebbe -- are you suggesting this is because, they believe that their Rebbe, who passed away over 300 years ago, is Moshiach?
This is news to me.
Elisha:
You could not find a more 'mainstream' chassidus than Breslov to prove your point that chasidusin maintained their belief, that their Rebbe WAS moshiach?Lol.Breslov was and is considerd a very 'strange' chassidus, and never appointed a new Rebbe.
For the record, mainstream Chassidus never obsessed about who the moshiach is.Chabad managed to compile a booklet with 'quotes' from various chasidic groups, who thought their rebbe was the Messiah.However on closer review you''ll notice that almost all their quotes are about chasidusen, who were, considered 'off'
Which proves that normal, mainstream orthodoxy had NEVER obsessed about moshiachs identity.A quick glance in history,shabsai tzvi, for example will tell you why mainstream responsible leaders sahied away from it.
As a Kapishnitzer einikel I can tell you that the mesora was always among chassidim of the various branches of Rizin that the Rebbe was Moshiach. And the Zeide the Rebbe Reb Ber (the mAggid) as well. But there is no such concept of the Rebbe being Moshiach after passing away.
Unfortunately I am too busy to fully respond at this time, and for the reason, I can’t give you specific quotes right now either. Bekitzur nimratz:
First of all, it is a befeirusha Gemorah, that each group of talmidim claimed that their Rebbe was Moshiach. The fact that this is so, shows that if one is a 'real' talmid of a 'real' Rebbe (Chassidus aside), it is legitimate al-pi-Torah to truly believe that his Rebbe is Moshiach.
I quoted Reb Nosson of Breslov because I knew the specific quote, and Brelslov is one of the biggest Chassidic groups in the world. It has withstood the test of time, and has an abundance of Chassidic Torah / content. Its mainstream leaders are also respected throughout the Torah world today.
Surely you know that the Satmar Rov and the old Skolye Rebbe praised Breslov to the heights, as did many others. The Tzemach Tzedek was mishabeach Reb Nosson specifically, with great praise (I can find the specific quote when I have some time). As to what exactly Reb Nosson's the quote means… you would have to ask a Breslover.
All I was saying was that it was not uncommon for Chassidim of old to believe their Rebbe was Moshiach. This may not apply to Hungarian Chassidim, as I have not heard quotes of that kind in reference to Rebbes of Rumainia/Hungary - but I have seen this quite often with regard to Russian and Polish Rebbes. The Riziner himself was clearly considered Moshiach by his Chassidim – and his descendents were considered so by their Chassidim – and although I don’t remember the Passuk, there is a famous drush that they darshen on the word RYVSH, to mean Reb Yisroel ben Shalom (most other Chassidim darshen it to the Baal Shem Tov) and Geula. As far as Chabad (and by the way Maloch if you are a Maloch, you would also be under the umbrella of Chabad) I can find a Lag Baomer sicha, I think from 1940, where the Previous Rebbe speaks about his visit to Liozna with his father, and his father showed him where the Alter Rebbe’s yechidus room was, and that it was called “Heichal Moshiach.”
I’m sorry I can’t discuss this further at this time, but maybe in the future…
With best wishes to all,
Forgive my ignorance, I'm not familiar with the Gemara to which you refer, and I'm having difficulty understanding the premise. But If Yankel believes his Rebbe is the Moshiach, and Chaim believes his Rebbe is the Moshiach, and Moshe believes his Rebbe is the Moshiach (and they are all true believers of worthy candidates), what happens when the REAL MOSIACH arrives and it is someone totally unexpected; a lamed-vovnik, a true tzadik nistar? Can we really expect Yankel, Chaim and Moshe to switch allegiances and wholeheartedly accept the true MELECH HAMOSHIACH? Is that realistic or even possible to expect of people who have been educated / conditioned all their lives to believe with emunah peshuta that it is someone else?
I believe the Gemmara is in Sanhedrin - I can look it up tonight, if nobody else cites the quote first.
I am sure that there are multiple interpretations that address your question, as it quite an obvious one - here is one simple understanding:
When Moshiach DOES come, it will be clear; everyone will know it.
But the point of the comment is, at least on one level, that if one is a REAL talmid, of a REAL Rebbe (were not talking only about the Chassidic variety) he will (should?) be devoted to, and believe in, him - to the extent that he is SURE that his Rebbe is Moshiach. This does not mean that it is a 'contrived' belief, it will just be naturally so - and that this is legitimate al-pi-Torah.
In other words, the belief in a Moshiach, if honest and sincere, is legitimate al-pi-Torah, even if the believed-in Moshiach, himself, is not, in fact, Moshiach al-pi-Torah.
Is that correct?
But let's not forget that the individual would also have to be qualified to be Moshiach - see the Rambam for his list of qualifications.
Maybe this is the pshat -- there are two types of Moshiach: (a) the personal one and (b) the National one. There can be multiple personal Moshiachs affecting people on a one-to-one level, but only ONE National Moshiach who arrives on the scene to save and lead the entire nation as a whole. In other words, the relationship between a true talmid to his true Rebbe can very well qualify as a personal Moshiach relationship. And by definition there can be many of those in a single generation. But this is not to be confused with the National Moshiach of which there can only be ONE in a generation. Essentially there are little "m" moshiachs and one big "M" Moshiach at any given time. When the big "M" Moshiach arrives everyone will know it, as you say, and belief in him will not be in doubt. This however will not contradict simultaneous belief in a personal, small "m" moshiach, as they are on two different levels altogether. I don't know if this is mashmah anywhere in the Gemara, as I am not familiar with it, but given recent history and the logistical permutations, this might be a possible explanation.
In Rabbi Chaim Rapoport's wonderful book, The Messiah Problem: Berger, The Angel, and the Scandal of Reckless Indiscrimination, he discusses many little known incidents of Messianism throughout chassidic history, including the prediction by R'Yitzchok Yehuda Yechiel Safrin (1806-1874) that Moshiach would definitely come by 5736 (1976) and techyas hamesim by 1996. In the week before the date in 1976, as time was running out, the previous Klausenberger Rebbe insisted every Jew was obligated to believe Moshiach would come as predicted by R'Safrin, since he spoke with ruach hakodesh. When 5736 came and went withuot Moshiach coming, the Klausenberger Rebbe explained, "When Moshiach WILL come we will then see that he actually CAME in the year 5736." R'Rapoport explains the Klausenberger Rebbe, "How so? G-d who transcends time will easily be able to 'turn the clock back' to the year 5736 and the Komarno's prophecy will be fulfilled." The point being- Chabad is hardly the only group in Chassidic history to make seeming "bizarre" claims or predictions regarding the subject of Moshiach.
Binyomin:
I have seen interpretations similar to what you propose.
It is also written that every Jew has a part of Moshiach in them. This would mean that if you were to believe that your Rebbe is Moshiach - you would be right, as at least somewhat, that is true.
This is an interesting topic, and a very interesting Gemmora - with hundreds of interpretations - but I think that the belief that some share, that Moshiach will rise from the dead, is extremely problematic.
Adam, maybe because all the "bizzare" claims, predictions and repercussions throughout the ages, we should pay a bit more attention to the narrative in the chumash where Jacob was prevented from revealing what he knew about the end of days. Some times the old ways are the best ways.
Elisha, not only problemmatic, but way too close (some would say identical) to the fundamental belief doctrine of another religion.
Binyomin, your point about Yaakov Avinu in chumash and the ketz is well taken... regarding Moshiach from the dead, however, didn't the Rebbe himself strongly teach (if indirectly) that such a notion is completely kosher in Judaism through his oft repeated public references and declarations (or wishes, rather) that his father-in-law come back in a body, and then "V'hu yigaleinu." It would seem, from the Rebbe's sichos, that his belief in his father-in-law as Moshiach is not ambiguous.
Then again, as the court case over the books illustrated, specifically the Rebbe's argument that there is nothing to talk about concerning any "yerusha" since the "deceased" is still alive, this is consistent with the Rebbe's apparent belief his father-in-law was alive? Or... of course, if it's true that any reference by the Rebbe to his father-in-law was a humble way to tell the chassidim of HIS own role, then the Rebbe's own messianic awareness comes across quite clearly. Thoughts?
Adam, you judge a tree by its fruit, or so they say. If you want to know if you've done a good thing, and you're not sure, see what comes of your action, and then you'll know if you've done the right thing or not. If we use this simple, almost primitive test, to the issue of proclaiming the Rebbe as Moshiach (either before or after Gimel Tammuz), can we honestly say it was a good thing? What good has come from it? You've probably heard the saying by now that they've taken a Great Rebbe and turned him into a small god. We've quickly graduated from issues of Messiah, to issues of Deity, with all this talk about the Rebbe and / or the Freirdike Rebbe not really passing away. What possible good can come from this? And if so, what's really the point other than some people protecting their vested interests no matter what the terrible consequences to their religion, their people and their Rebbe.
Adam, the other thing worth mentioning perhaps, is that we're way past right and wrong on this issue. People will believe what they want to believe and claim halacha is on their side. For example, the most successful, prosperous, fastest-growing religion today is the Mormon Church. They "own" the State of Utah, hosted the Olympics, have universities, medical schools, college basketball teams, are very mainstream, and have a religion based on pure fantasy. Jesus came to the mid-West in the 1800s and revealed himself to their leader. That's it. They send their kids out on shlichus (l'havdil) when they're 18 - 19 years old to all corners of the world and they are moiser nefesh (again l'havdil) and live on very little money while they deliver their message door to door. And their message is pure fiction. A professor of history at one of their universities was asked how he could believe in Mormon dogma given his professional background as an historian who is trained to sift fact from fiction. He answered that for sure, his religion was factually problematic, but at the end of the day, he was fifth generation Mormon, and as a result, he was devoted to his church's beliefs and way of life. Religions have very strong social components to them that have very little to do with the truth necessarily. When you give your formative years to a religion, go on shlichus in your teen years and go through periods of deprivation for the cause, you make bonds and form relationships that will last a very long time. Right and wrong take a back seat. And given the closed community system, when shidduch and parnoso get factored into the equation, for sure, objective analysis and critical thinking has a tendency to get pushed into the background. V'hamayvin yovin.
By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
The Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a can communicate after the stroke as can be seen from many miraclious answers that were given at that time if the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a was listened to when he was asked if Jews should evacuate from Maiami according to the orders of the president before Huracane Andrew and said no people stayed there ignoring the seeming danger and huracane hit the place where people run and the story of the Rebbe's prophecy was again a front page news so too it would seem the Rebbe encouraging singing Yechi even after the stroke should be credible in the Yechi video from 15th of Yiar 5751 you can clearly hear people stopping at one point and the Rebbe telling them in Yidish to sing it again and if you watch the video it seems that all or most people there are singing Yechi not just the melody.
This issue is discused here :
http://www.beismoshiach.org/
Mosh...moshiach282.htm
http://www.beismoshiach.org/
Mosh...moshiach283.htm
and here:
http://www.rabbiyess.com/
ruling_..._of_Rabbis.html
also watch this 25 min video that has more clips of the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a encouraging people to say "Yechi" encouraging people tocontinue the campaign to encourage people to sign the Shtar Minui haMelech - document of acceptance of his kingship as Moshiach.
http://torah.5u.com/Rebbe-King-
M...oshiach.tv.html
Also read this:
A Brief History of Lubavitch Messianism
http://www.moshiachlisten.com/hi...om/
history.html
see this site:
http://www.PsakDin.net
look at the list of signatures do you think all these Rabbonim: Chabad,Polishe Rebbe's, Sefardim, etc. are totaly nuts can't understand the simple meaning of the Rebbe's words note that most Shluchim who oppose publicizing identity of Moshiach the strongest would usualy admit of the record that they are afraid they will lose donations and prestige which will affect kiruv and spreading Chassidus #1 it's not true as the growth of the Mashichist movement everywhere shows visit their communities and see people learn Chassidus tere too.#2If you realy preffer a Rabbi who's actions depend on money and honor in blatant disregard of halocha which in this case is expressed by Rebbe's Sichos perhaps then you are looking for a Conservative Rabbi (their basic premise is we follow the halocha as long as it is not too inconvinient to do so)#3 As many of you may have noticed already the same Chabad Rabbis who compromise on Moshiach often also compromise on the security of the land of Israel- Shleimus haAretz Tzemach Atlas here is not a Mashichist but he also points out this obvious fact as many others who are trying to be honest with themselves.#4 If you study Derech Mitzvoisecho Mitzvas Minui haMelech you'll see that just must accept the authority of a King from the house of David to achieve the redemption.Redemption without Moshiach is essentialy religios Zionism which the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a points out is founded on stupidity of people willing to believe they can personaly pull themselves out of exile while not following halocha as taught by king Moshiach as and the State of Israel is the begining of redemption go to http://www.Otzar770.com see the bookmarks subject list and read Sichos on the topic of Medinat Yisrael the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a sounds almost as "anti-zionist" as Naturei Karta
#5 Many people are actualy being brought closer to Judaism start observing Torah and learning Chassidus only because of Mashichist tactics by getting amazing and miraculious answers from the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a thru Igrot Koidesh http://www.igrot.com they realize that there is G-d and there is Moshiach and it's as real as this phisical world if not more so.And if Moshiach is real and He teaches to observe halocha then it (and not Conservative or Reform or whatever interpretation of it) must be G-d's will.I mekareved many such people.If you are into kabbolah it's implied in the concept "zivug malchus" sparks being liberated from the klippah of egoism...Same thing is also implied in Reishis Goim Amolek first Mimar of the Previous Rebbe.It's also writen in Maor Einaim by my ancestor the holy Rebbe of Tchernobyll that Moshiach will first act as Eliyahu haNovi arousing the thirst for redemption among the people later on he will be revealed as Moshiach you can see this process chronologicly in this video http://torah.5u.com/Rebbe-King-
M...oshiach.tv.html
be'kavod ubrocha:
Ariel Sokolovsky
PS:You should know that in less than a year most people in the world will probably know who Moshiach is (see this article http://torah.5u.com/Conversation...d-ever-
770.html ) and it's in your own best interest to listen to His words and publicize His identity as soon as possible.
Long Live our Master our Teacher and our Rebbe King Moshiach Forever and Ever!
Ariel, I'm curious, why do you capitalize "His" words, and "His" identity, presumably, in regard to the Rebbe. Isn't Moshiach, even if you believe him to be the Rebbe,specifically a man of flesh and blood? I'm reminded of how Christians also capitalize words like "Him" and "His" in reference to Oso HaIsh, l'havdil a million times. By the way, I read the link you included from Rav Wolpa. As always, he writes convincingly and with clarity. My favorite Rav Wolpa sefer is Shemmen Sasson Meichavarecha, chapters of which appear regularly in the English section of Beis Moshiach translated by Rabbi Zushe Kohn.
who gave Ariel the URL
Tzemach, maybe you should change the adress and make sure ariel cant find it.
You do realize that Rav Wolpa is a gifted individual; I also think he could convince anyone that day is night or that up is down.
I remember a certain respected Lubavitcher once said something like:
"I wouldn't attended a shiur - about halacha, chassidis, or anthing else - by Rav Wolpa, because I would be unable trust myself; I don't know if I would have the bechira to disagree with him."
Ariel, is a personal friend here in Boston. I might delete his coments, i might even ban him but I will always love him. I know him since his first week in USA.
Atlas, do not ban Ariel, he is kind, polite and lovable in his comments (and I do not know him at all).
long live ariel
Watching the passing of another religion's leader play out in the media, the emotional attachment by millions of followers who have invested a larger-than-life mythology in a man they claim was divinity enclothed in a human body, the constant references to a holy spirit guiding the hands of the cardinals who will pick the successor (as if the personal interests of the movers and shakers in the shurch -- those closest to the cholent -- won't rule the day) ... aren't we proud to belong to a religion that has no similarity whatsoever to such obvious pagan and idolatrous (avoida zoroh) narashkeit?
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