mentalblog.com comments:
I advise that he should go and find out what regular chabadniks are like.
I have a hard time believing this story.
A) most Shluchim are not Meshichists.
B) The few that are not not so Hard core that they would have a Tambourine with Boreinu.
C) If this particular shliach does believe in this outlawed "mishugas" any body that has had any thing to do with him would learn that right away, ("spreading the word" is part of their "shita") you wouldnt have to sneak a peak at his tambourine to find out this "secret"
Loved the book. Brian Rigg gives what is the most comprehensive version of events published until now. He interviews all the big PR guns and history buffs in Lubavitch, including the Alteins, Manis Friedman, the Jacobsons, Zaklikovsky, and he gives a lot of coverage to what they told him. He repeatedly quotes from officially-sanctioned sources, including “Out of the Inferno”. Thanks to him, one doesn’t have to be part of the “in crowd” to know “what really happened”.
Some posters on this blog whine that he misrepresents what the “real” Lubavitch position is, or what Likutei Diburim “really” says, but that’s stupid: he interviewed all the important players, and that’s like claiming that the Red Sox only beat the team from the Bronx, and that the Yankees deserve a rematch using their farm team.
However, as a historian who rigorously documents the source for everything Lubavitchers told him, I was dissapointed that he continously quotes Avrum Erlich as one would a primary source: this would be like Tzemach using Shmarya for the same purpose.
Also, does anyone know what has become of the Lubavitcher bochrim who were with the Rebbe at the time, including Wineberg, Greenberg, and Fox? Do they have any positions of leadership in the movement today, or have they been discarded like many great chasidim from the past generation? In this respect, Crown Heights has a lot to learn from other from communities.
Advice:
Why not speak with a responsible intelligent individual, who would be familiar with the dilemma... Maybe Rav Heller? I'd think you need someone like that, who understands the sensitivities and halachaic ramifications.
I agree with Chabaakuk Vitebsker. Why not ask Rabbi Heller or someone like that.
Tzemach, i think you are going overboard. Whats the big deal if he has the Beis Moshiach, does that meen that he eats treif? I dont understand the big deal.
i did not write this, read it again.
The poster who claimed that 'few shlichim are meshichist' is flat out wrong.A large number are, and one can get a feel for this by reading 'Bais Moshiach'.Generally any shalich interviewed there is a meshichist.
It's true that many of these shlichim tome it down a bit, because of bad p.r.
The Boreinu part sounds off.
While there existed a small contingent of boreinuniks in Lubavitch, I don't think any were shlichim and even the 'meshichisten' would have disassociated them
"boreinuniks", ha?
are you sure it is not
"boreininuks"? :)
Yossi:
The Lubavitcher bochrim that you mentioned, Weinberg,Greenberg and Fox.
Did Weinberg become the one who taught Tanya on the radio?Greenberg maybe Heschel Greenberg from Bufallo's dad.
(weinberg was a Polish citizen, so I don't know, how he could have left)
Don,
You got to be kidding, you are judging the % of Shluchim that are meshichists by interviews in beis moshiach? but in any case, a very small % of shluchim were interviewd by the beis moshiach, and even the few that they do interview, many of them are not Shluchim, they are people like Anati from Fl. who decide that although the Shliach was M'karev them a few years ago, they now know more than him,and through an "igros" answer etc. proclaim themselves Shluchim.
and before you attack me, please count how many established Shluchim you know that are meshichistim, and compare it to the few thousand Shluchim that are out there.
OK,lets not use the Bais Moshiach as a measuring yard.How about the Crown Heights Bais Din;R'Marlow, meshichist,R'Schvei, meshichist ?
R' marlow is unfortunately no longer with us.
R' Shwei does seem to be going along with the Meshichistim, (I say going along because although I have never seen or heard any blatant meshichism from him, since he does support beis moshiach etc. I will assume that he is a meshichist) R' Osdoba and R' heller are both not Meshichistim. but the comments that I took issue with were about a Shliach (I assume) not a Crown heights rabbi. If the moral dilema was because a crown heights rabbi has the beis moshiach in his house, I would not have said what I did. I said most shluchim are not meshichistim you disagreed. Now to back up your claim you mention the CH rabbis. CH rabbis are not representative of the Shluchim.
Anonymous, please pick a nick name. Thanks
Tzemach
Why not just live and let live? I mean, I know it is radical, but if we have learned anything from the American experience, it is that people do what works for them. If dancing in a circle and yelling Yechi gives someone what they need, why not just look on as one would look on to any exotic religious practice. The vast majority of book bannings, heretic condemnations, and religious makhlokesin, even between very disparate groups could be resolved if people just dropped the arrogant notion of righteous indignation and just let people do their wacky stuff. It is, by and large, harmless and most outsiders can differentiate who speaks for whom.
The key is, it has nothing to do with you. And NO, never take halachic or any other important advice that sounds suspect from a single source of any type. Always look it up or get a second to the motion.
what's wrong with you people, is it that hard to understand that I did not write this?
nobody reads!!!!!!
at least i read the "from" line :lol:
Atlas, funny...
But to the author of this "moral dilemma", I would largely second rebeljew's sentiment...
Please double-check on the "boreinu" accusation. If it does not say this, modify your message accordingly. If it does, notify a Beis Din.
I never met someone who sais Boreinu, I will not believe it untill I hear a name of a real person- not the Shabaks baranes- who says or believes such an outragous thing.
Lumps accepted and well deserved. Comments should have been addressed to the author. But the expressed sentiments stand.
And I wonder if Boreinu was just the misreading or mental warping of Rabeinu, by someone who just wanted to see this. We have all heard the phrase ad nauseum and it is never Boreinu. Even Moshe Yess doesn't say Boreinu.
Let's be realistic and admit that there is no place in Yiddishkeit for the belief held by what has been said to be a majority of Lubavitchers concerning their last Rebbe, O'H. If they eventually recover, B''H, from this temporary lapse of reason they may someday be able to become an acepted part of the Frum community. If not, Has V'Sholom, they may eventually wind up like the Christians and other less fontunate followers of false messianic figures.
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