mentalblog.com comments:
"quality control was maintained" PLEASE tell me you are kidding.
Indeed, this is the legacy of Torah in general. Moses was not a CEO and did not create a "Torah" corporation with a board of directors and financial controls. Moses, a true man of G-d, left the Torah and students. Joshua succeeded Moses as Torah leader in his time, and so the chain carried on in one unbroken flow till today. Leadership was about scholarship, mitzvot and world change, not about finance and real estate. The authority of (authentic) Rabbis and Torah leaders was about all legal and spiritual matters, but not about "running" a business in the modern sense of the word. Torah was taught freely.
Finaly..............................
Simon, how did the institution of the "head of state sheliach" come into being? Was created or even sanctioned by the Rebbe? If so, how does it coexist with the "no exclusive control" theory you posit?
There are many sheluchim who do their own fundrasing, with the own board of directors, with their own employees, and despite it all they remain subject to the whims of a "head of state". Please clarify.
To add to berl's question: If the Rebbe desired a system as you see it, why was there a clear directive from Rabbi Hodakov delineating the chain of command? Why is there a legal organization in every country that represents Chabad? Why did the Rebbe at times step in and limit the power of certain shluchim?
These are interesting comments in regards to the organizational structure of shluchim. And the good "oral scribe" may be accurate in his observations. In many ways as he says there are structural and business matters.
But I believe there are at least 10,000 Lubavitcher souls in CH who are not real shluchim. More of such live in Montreal and other places .
How does this lack of any meaningful spiritual hierarchy affect these people ?
I listened to Rav Schwei yesterday warning against "mixed dancing" at Lubavitcher weddings !!!Yes friends mixed dancing !!!in Crown Heights in 2005 !!!
I have heard "the rav" of CH warn against Lubavitcher bachurim shaving or trimming their beards which was unheard of until the events of Tammuz 1994.
Candidates for the CH Community council talked about bachurim and yungeleit in CH who do not learn and do not daven either.Others demanded some sort of Chesed activities to help the needy of CH who are growing in number.
Rabbi Groner several years ago spoke publically about bachurim from chassidic homes who go off the path of Torah.
In addition newspapers like the FORWARD and Village Voice have had pieces about less than acceptable behavior by Lubavitcher young people.
So it seems that the rebbe's plans for the future in terms of leadership may be adequate for the shluchim and their activities in secular America, but one can not but wonder if a strong Rebbe or spiritual leader could not have impacted on the religious life in CH in a way so that rav Schwei could speak about matters like increased learning or chumres in kashruth rather than shaving beards or mixed dancing at Lubavitcher weddings. Yelamdenu rabbeinu !!
If one would compare the Rebbe's style of establishing Lubavitch - from an organizational perspective - to other groups, I think it would be clear that Lubavitch is comparatively hands-off.
In most groups, and certainly most Chassidc groups, everything runs from the top down. Usually, almost every detail is micro-managed from the top - and I don't think Lubavitch functions like that at all. It's true that there is a loose structure - but the impression shared by most 'outsiders' is that there is a centralized organization in CH, and that they are in control of all the offshoots - which is clearly not the case.
The fact that there may be a head-shliach does not really change that too much, and there IS a need for some semblance of order, or else shluchim will be opening shop, and destroying other shluchim a block way by creating conflicting events, undermining established shluchim, taking away donors, etc...
Though I know that in Lubavitch and other hasidic groups shaving and less so, trimming of the beard is frowned upon, I'm surprised that Shneour equates the two to mixed dancing!!
Btw, just that you know Shneour,R'Schvei is a full blown meshichist,I would not attend meeting with their ilk.
In Lubavitch shaving an d even trimming a beard is a very serious issue and I am sure no Lubavitcher will dispute this.
As far as Messianism goes, thats not an issue for me because i know the meaning of that. Certainly Rav Schwei is no worse a messianist than the rabbis at the OK or the mashgichim at Rubshkin vechuli. And that has not stopped klal israel from using their certified foods. Should it ? Do you eat their meats or do use some private shechitah under the supervision of Rabbi Krinsky?
You mean people who have issues with meshichisten should stop eating at fancy restaurants that use Rubashkins meat? they would have to praveh hiskafyeh!
Schneur, your are absolutely correct - for a Lubavitcher the פוסק אחרון on this issue is the צמח צדק who holds that even trimming one's beard is an איסור דאורייתא.
(I once suggested to a friend who trims his beard that it might be less of a חוצפה for him to use a real razor blade and be עובר עליבא דכולא עלמא and thus avoid singling out the צמח צדק with such disregard.) :)
I know, that was twisted.
LOL... Maybe twisted, but that is a great line!
I hope you don't mind if I use it in the next couple days (I'll give you the credit of course)
הרשות בידך
I don't believe Rabbi Shvei was talking about what we know was mixed dancing, but rather fathers dancing with daughters or other family members with the Kallah. In Lubavitch, where the Mitzvah Tantz is unheard of, this is considered "mixed dancing".
As painful as it may be for me to discuss this, I do have to admit that the Religious situation in CH is in a nosedive. Everybody is to blame. Young people are not educated properly and everybody is pointing the fingers at the others. Instead of fighting about issues of control and power, please concentrate on raising Frum, Chassidish, or forget the Chassidish part, just Frum Jews.
How did a post regarding the Rebbe's management style turn into a conversation about trimmed beards and mixed dancing? Am I to assume that someone is claiming that the current situation is a result of the Rebbe's approach to running the chassidus?
Avremel, are there ANY Lubavitch comminuties where frumkeit/chassidishkeit is actually on the rise? Besides the shluchim that do wonderful work with the "velt", it seems to me that Lub is in deep crisis and I see no light at the end of the tunnel.
The mixed dancing issue was about a mitzvah tantz of family members.
I suggest Shluchim start reaching out to Lubavitchers to offer them yidishkeit and chasidishkeit; maybe even apoint some shluchim to crown Heights
Back to the top, head shliach was created by hadakov and it is not clear if this was the Rebbe's kavonoh. unfortunately, it has become a vehicle for self-serving some people, i.e. CA, Moscow, Kotlarsky, etc.
Trimming is an issur de'oyraysah???Can you back up this up with a quote from the Zemach Zedek???
Makes it even more interesting to understand why the Freirdiker Rebbe took a son in law who shaved!!
Shneour, re:Meshichisten, the OK is run by Don Levy who is not a meshichist and I believe that R'Chaim Kohn, rav hamachshir of Breurs and one of the chief rabbis associated with Rubashin does not allow meshichisten as shochtim.I would hope that Levy of OK Labs does not allow messianic supervision, if he does I think the orthodox world has a right to know.
I dont beleive that the decline of basic standards of Chassidic life is only by Lub. Anyone who goes to Williamsburg or BP and sees the yungeleit who are working (not the kollel yungeleit) can see this. You hardly find someone that does not trim. They are all driving the latest SUV's and so forth. Lets not even discuss of what happened this past Purim with young couples from the beste in shenste mishpuchos in williamsburg that came together for a party.
Chaim, I have no idea what scandal you're referring to, but even if some anecdotal incident did take place, you cannot extrapolate all that much from it.
As I was once told from a sincere Bobver a few years ago - "I like what I have read from Chabad-Lubavitch. However, after I walk on Kingston ave, you cannot tell me that they are a part of the heimishe world."
It's easy to say "They all do it," it even seemed to work somewhat for our former President - but it is not all that accurate. I personally have many ideas to explain this, but the problems we have in Chabad are a lot more like the problems of the Modern-Orthodoxy than that of "Williamsburg/BP."
RE: Ok Labs. Can you assure everyone here that all the mashgichim , rabbis etc working for this group are not Meshichistin.
I know at least one high ranking halachic authority in the Ok who is a big time Meshichist.Yes the Levy family is not.
I assume there are many others.
It does not bother me because I know whtat meshichism really means.
How about the Ch Baddatz which gives hechsherim , should we eat (Klal israel) Aaron's best or Sor habar meats under their hashgocha ? Again I do not care about this issue. But leshotoshcha concerning rav Schwei , you should be meorerr all about the dangers of Meshichistin in Kashruth.
Lets not besmearch rav Schwei with labels that can be used against most of the Chabad community. It does not impede his authority one iota.
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