mentalblog.com comments:
Looking at the following post, have you asked Simon his opinion on Lazar?
Is this why the "big" shluchim are opposed to appointing a new Rebbe?! because they "are" the new Rebbe?!
don't be silly, Yossi
Seriously, would Berel restrain his powergrab if a new Rebbe told him to?
I am writing this even though I think you will cesore it... But hey - at least you will read it ;-)
ok, looking through the article (and ALL the links) you put together, I have to say: "You missed the point!!"
Berl Lazar is in Russia for what? For a big house? For a big salary? For a nice car? He is there for one reason - to advance the observance of the local Jewish people, in the Chabad way! Now the fact that he has power means that people gave it to him (whoever they might be, Putin or the 500,000-strong Jewish community), now power is a very tricky thing, everyones hope is that you will make the right decisions when in power.
I think Berl Lazar uses out his power to do good things for the Jews in Russia! The fact that Putin came to the Grand Opening of his Community Center, made a tremendous impact on the Jews in Russia (I know - I have been in quite a few communitys throughout the FSU).
You might ask, what did this Karpov do wrong that Lazar should be after him like that? It doesent say anything like that in the article, but I'm sure that this guy has to do with the "other guys" and therefore when he got a chance (throu whatever means) to get the guys building - he went for it. Why? Because he is interested in spreading his thing and make his thing bigger. (I'm not sure I agree with what he did in this particular caase - though in general I admire him!)
Now you do have other Shluchim - as mentiioned in one of the links - that they are there to build their "riches" (as Chabad of California). But that is not all Shluchim, I dont even think it is a percent of the Shluchim!
Almost all the Shluchim (my father included - and hopefully me one day) are there to help Jews from all backgrounds, come closer to Judaism.
You can contact Levayevs office thru his organizations website www.fjc.ru
To better understand this post, i will write some history, and hopefully everything will fall into place.
Berel Lazar was sent to Moscow as a Shliach thru Ezras Achim, and he started working there, lived in a modest apartment, etc. (same as Karpov). A few years later the Rebbe established Aguch of Russia (Shlomo Cunin, Izzy Kogan, Berl Levin & Yossel Aharonov), and they consolidated power over the Shluchim in russia. Berel lazar cooperated with them, as he is a shliach dedicated to the Rebbe and to spreading yiddishkeit, as a result Ezras Achim fired him, because Ezras Achim didnt accept the authority of Aguch Russia. This continued for a few years, Berel Lazar was living in very poor conditions, trying to fulfill his Shlichus to the best of his capability. In 1994 Or Avner was founded by Lev Levaiev (and the Wolf family from israel) as a way to mess over Aguch Russia, and since OA has more money than Aguch Russia, they easily moved the shluchim to their camp, thus consolidating power (the reason is rooted in the long fight between wolf and aharonov).
Berel Lazar was stuck in the middle, trying to get along with everybody, and after some time, he just caved into pressure, and took the position given to him by OA. As a present, OA arranged for him the Chief Rabbi status.
Berel Lazar, is not the one who controls OA, but it is Levaiev. And Levaiev decided to destroy any Lubavitchers who do not follow him, and since Karpov is one of those who didnt cave into pressure (he was authorized by Chamah and the Rebbe to run chabad house in moscow), they decided to destroy his life, starting from firing him from Lomonosov University, thru making his life miserable, etc. and it ended in what just happened.
all this was written in a very tired state of mind, so its not orderly, Beezras hashem, i will rewrite it clearly for the benfit of the readers.
It's time people realized already:Chabad is interested in spreading Chabad, not Judaism.They are seeking total domination of the jewish world using any means they can.Witness the late Rebbe, he was coronated by them as the 'Nossi Hador' leader of the generation, the WHOLE JEWISH NATION!!!Why are they forcing everybody to believe that their rebbe is everyones leader?Unless by them Chabad=Judaism, Chabads leader=Judaisms president.In fact if the so called 'anti meshichisten' refer to their deceased leader as the CURRENT Nosi Hador!
Wherever they can be it Australia (where they have taken over a large percentage of the orthodox communal organizations)or any other country where they feel that they are powerful enough to take everything over, change the synagogues nusach (the nusach different jews have used for hundreds of years, be it Ashkenaz,Sefard or Sefardic is no good anymore, since again Chabad=Judaism so only their prayer books are good)
Lazar has to be fought tooth and nail, he 'self appointed' himself as Chief Rabbi in a Chabad organized putsch.They did the same thing in the Ukraine where they usurped Rabbi Bleich, the rabbi who had been there for many years by bringing in a 'new' Chief Rabbi of Ukraine.
Why is Levayev supporting this to the tune of many millions, is he getting a lot more back by getting Putins ear with Chabads help for his business deal?
Lubavitcher Bochur, interesting. Why Levaiev needs a totalitairn control? We know that he is an arms dealer. But why do it to Torah in Russia?
Anyone who knows Leviev a little will tell you that he has a real hard time getting along with people!
For example birthright - in the begining he was a part of the donors, but after the first trip all of the sudden he broke off - because they didnt do it the way he liked!!!
But he is no loser - last summer he made his own birthright with teenagers from Russia and Ukraine, and for it all by himself! I think there were about 700 kids...
(But this is all besides all his business interests in all of these countries...)
> Tzemach said:
> We know that he is an arms dealer.
Can you elaborate?
Thanx
People who are new here, please do not post as an Anonymous, pick a nick name. Thanks.
Tzemach, very interesting story. Please do find as many first hand accounts as possible, particularly from Rabbi Karpov. The broad strokes of the article seem legitimate, but I found it suspect when there is only one direct quote from Rabbi Karpov buried in the last paragraph, and the rest is R. Shayevitz, who has butted heads with Lazar in the past, and quotes from the American organizations.
It's almost as if they couldn't get a good enough quote from Karpov to stir up the pot and had to resort to others. So if you can get direct quotes from him it would give us a much better picture.
In general, as I'm sure you know better than I do, Russians play hardball much more than Americans do.
Levayev an arms dealer? Lazar a puppet? Kennedy a mafia stooge?
Guravitzer, do not be silly. Rabbi Karpov may not be in a position to make any comments without loosing his parnossa (AND THAT IS NOT A TRIVIAL MATTER!) in addition to an already lost control & creative freedom. Note that Atlas did not say he is going to talk to Rabbi Karpov. He said he is going to "call Moscow". (IMHO it only makes sense to interview Rabbi Karpov if he had lost his position & pay.)
not sure how i became "plonialmoni". it was me.
Tzemach,
I will start by saying that I agree with all the wonderful things you write about Karpov, I would also say that while I am not qualified to measure Lazar's "lamdonos and Chasidishkiet", I will Venture to say that he (like Karpov) cares about Jews and Judaism in Russia, He did not go to Russia for Mansions and cars. I am sure that the finacial situation in Russia today, and the title of Chief Rabbi, enables him (maybe even entitles him or requires him)to maintain a high standard of living, but that is definetly not the reason he moved to Russia, Tzemach, you mention that you visited karpov in his Apartment, for many years Lazar lived in the same type of "Luxury" apartment. He raised his kids in that type of enviroment and even after a great personal tragedy, (which some people might have/could have, blamed on Russia) he did not leave.
Politics, and disagreemnets between orginizations (even well meaning ones) are a fact of Life.
Karpov alligned himself with an orginization that "doesent get along" with Lazar.
Lazar was given ownership of a building that houses a "rival" group. many lesser people would have just evicted them right away.
Lazar called karpov and told him that you can stay, but your Shul will now be under my Umbrella rather than that of people that fight me. I fail to see the big problem with that. It is unfortunate that Lazar and Karpov dont work together, (there was a time when they did) but the emotional and physcological reasons for that are for another post.
brother, please give examples of ChAMA "fighting" Rabbi Lazar.
Chama alligned themselves with gusinsky and the congress when they were fighting lazar, and Karpov Joined goldshmidt's congress (I gorgot the name)that is fighting Lazar at every opportunity.
Chamah tries to play dumb and say we didnt relize, we didnt know, etc. but such niavete is not credible even for Chama and Karpov.
brother, how can one verify this is true? It does not sound credible, I am sorry to say. Any documents? Photorgaphs? Something?
Atlas, regarding your uneasy feelings over Levayev ubiquitous face:
By reputation (people still remember him as a child in cheder in Uzbekistan) Mr. Levayev is not, shall we say, the sharpest tool in the shed... People like that often feel validated by meaningless photo ops. It does not make me feel "uneasy" or "easy". It does not make me fell anything at all. He supports a ton of good initiatives. G-d bless him for that. I do not subscribe to sinister conspiracy theories – they always give the "conspirators" more credit than they deserve.
berl, I can't see your logic, as there is one direct quote from Karpov in the article that can make him lose his job. My question is then, did the reporter simply decide the AJC angle is a better one, or did Karpov not provide enough provocative material for him? Either way, I'd like to hear more on the actual situation there, both from Karpov and Lazar, or their camps.
That's a pretty big accusation, to say that Chamah and Karpov joined Gusinsky etc. As berl says, can that be backed up?
How many shuls are there in Moscow today ? Do these congregations have their own buildings ?
Our host seems to know much about Russian religious Jewry since the 1980's. How many Lubavitcher baale batim are there in Moscow today ?
Could Moscow religious Jews support themselves if foreign financial support was turned off ?
Is there a Modern orthodox community there ?
Beryl
I dont have time to search for and find Proof, (although I do remember, the articles and pictures when Goldshmidt started his congress, and Karpov was very prominent.)but you dont need any proof. Chama wrote a public letter (2 or 3 weeks ago) about Lazar taking over the shul and they mention Karpovs cooperation with Goldshmidts congress, and they explain that by saying that he didnt realize etc.
I did a quick google search and i found the folllowing article, this is from 2004
"Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) Chairman-In-Office, Bulgarian Foreign Minister Solomon Pasi who arrived in Moscow for an official visit came to the Russian Jewish Congress office on the 17th of February.
The talk with directors of Jewish organizations in Russia was included in Moscow meetings schedule of the head of Bulgarian Foreign Ministry on his own initiative. Chief rabbi of Russia Adolf Shaevich, Chief rabbi of Moscow Pinhas Goldschmidt, chairman of the Congress of Jewish Religious Communities and Organizations in Russia (KEROOR) rabbi Zinovii Kogan, rabbi of the Jewish community in Otradnoe “Darkei Shalom” Dovid Karpov, RJC president Evgenii Satanovskii, RJC vice-president Iurii Raskin, other members of RIC direction and representatives of various Jewish agencies took part in the meeting. Solomon Pasi was accompanied by Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Bulgaria in Russia Iliyan Vasilev, Foreign Ministry and Embassy officials"
While you can argue that accompanying Goldshmidt to a meeting with a forign dignitary doesent constitute a fight, and doesent warrant being thrown out of your shul, you dont seem like the naive type of guy, and you can read between the lines and interpret what Karpov's meeting indicates.
and as I said before, I read the article in the jewish week, and it doesent say that Lazar threw him out, it says that he told him you now have to be under the aegis of the federation.
I will also say that I dont know if I can necessarily blame Karpov for joining Goldshmidt.
Karpov was one of the leaders of the marina Roscha Shul and the BT movement in Russia before Lazar came.
Once Lazar came and "took over the show", he felt the need to leave (or was pushed out, to be honest I dont know) but in any case he needed some support, so he alligned himself with somebody else (chamah, goldshmidt, whoever)but I also cant blame Lazar from demanding loyalty from Someone who has a Shul in a building he now owns.
Schenur, I am on the phone with Moscow now. Good you asked the question. I am writing the answers. Will put it all together later...
i am still on the phone 1.5 hrs
Tzemach,
we are waiting patiently (or impatiently)to hear your report.
I will say again, I feel that this is a very sad story, because Lazar and Karpov could have been good together, From the fact that Lazar himself called Karpov (and didnt just send one of his underlings to evict him) I suspect that they still have respect for each other. It is just a pity that circumstances forced them to part.
it a long mayse, i will not be able to publsih it till tonight. But after speaking to R. Karpov and others I wonder, to second Berl, how do you make up your stories, brother?
I will wait untill I hear your lange mayse.
As I am sure you can tell from my posts, I do have Derech eretz for R' Dovid, and I will try to be open minded.
Tzemach, were you able to get anything from the other side as well?
Beryl, guravitzer, and tzemach
RE: your question/accusation "That's a pretty big accusation, to say that Chamah and Karpov joined Gusinsky etc. As berl says, can that be backed up?"
Read Tzemachs latest post and you will see that Karpov confirms that the shul is a joint venture with the RJC.
he also confirms that he joined Goldshmidts congress.
brother, I see your point. But such an ugly a "take over" of mosad of the Rebbe hardly seems to be a proportional response! Would love to hear what CHAMA administrators in NY have to say about their affiliation with RJC. It would also be good to hear from Lasar's people in Moscow. Maybe a clearer picture would emerge then. But I have to say that I cringe when I hear of such tactics being used against a shliach.
You speak about an ugly takeover of the Rebbe's moisad. r' david also refers to himself as the Rebbe's shliach, But Chamah is Schizo about this, They want the best of Both worlds. If they are a lubavitcher moisad then they have to accept the authority of the local lubavitcher "head shliach" or "Rov" (which in this case is Lazar, and this entire issue would have been a mute point) so they say we are not Lubavitch,and that allows them to partner with the RJC, goldshmidt etc. then when they are treated as such, they start screaming "fellow shliach".
You ask what Chamah will say. Firstly whatever they will say is irrelevant since it doesent change the fact that they are alligned with these orginizations.
But since you ask, chamah adresses this in their letter by playing dumb and saying that they didnt relize that Goldshmidts congress was against lazar etc.
Firstly they must thing we are realy stupid to believe that, secondly, that explains attending the opening of the congress, not continuing to work with him and continuing to partner with the RJC in Darchei Shalom.
brother, let me clarify:
Unlike many contributors to this blog, I rejoice in Lazar’s powerful position (see note below)* and in how that position strengthens the hand of Chabad in Russia & beyond. I am also thrilled to hear that many shluchim in Russia live very comfortably and I only hope that it remains so into the future. In short, I am hardly a detractor...
The Karpov/Chama story, however, is a disappointment.
Firstly, there is an inescapable moral issue removing a sheliach that was there before Lazar – it is simply ugly.
Secondly, such an act constitutes a public breach of hiskashrus. In his letter to Rav Gorelik of Kfar Habad penned a few months after the 10th of Shevat 5710, the Rebbe firmly states that removing anyone appointed by "the Shver" constitutes a breach of hiskashrus to him. The Rebbe goes on to say that if there is a legitimate issue, other remedies must be found. (Igros Kodesh Vol 3, pages 393-394). True, the Rebbe did not, technically, appoint Rabbi Karpov to run this particular shul and Rabbi Lazar did not, technically, fire him - in the "spirit of the law" this is indeed what happened.
In short, if there was a legitimate issue with Chama’s conduct regarding the RJC (as it now appears to me to be the case), another way of addressing this had to be found.
* Note: I have to qualify this: as of late I am disturbed about the extent to which that power hinges on one man – Putin. What happens if Putin, G-d forbid, is replaced by a less friendly man? Given the history of Russia, is this a wise set up?
RJC and Chama.
I don't know what is the issue with RJC nor do I wnat to know really. But Dovid said that is was part of the finances for the upkeep of the shule among others. Not that Chama was cooperating, etc. If you start loooking into sources of financail support of sluchim bigger skeletons will come up, no?
brother, you wrote: If they are a lubavitcher moisad then they have to accept the authority of the local lubavitcher "head shliach" or "Rov"
This is might be so in general (though it still remains to be clearly defined), but it is most definitely not the case with someone who was there before the head shliach ever showed up on the scene. Come on!
life would be much simpler if everything was clear cut.
It would be much simpler if all Head shluchim were Temimisdik, and pure, or if they were all corrupt and power hungry, It would be much simpler, if karpov was an SOB that deserved being thrown out, or if Lazar would do something so evil that nobody can defend, I am actually conflicted about the head Shluchim issue B'chlal and Lazar B'frat, ( On one hand the libertarian streak in me cant stomach it, especially the way it developed with a hereditary system etc. on the other hand we dont want a situation of "Ish Es r'ahu Chaim Blahoy")(russia in particular is even a bigger problem because on the one hand you have a centralized system that is working, on the other hand you have a disproportinate amount of power in the hands of a very few.) and I was not trying to defend Lazar and say that he is right, and that karpov deserves to be throwen out, I was just trying to point out that although on the surface an article that talks about an ugly takeover elicicts an emotional outburst of Support for the underdog, we should try to keep an open mind and look at the situation objectively.
If we can amend the script and put in a happy ending, I would suggest that Karpov be given special status, similar to raichik was in California. so that he can operate independently with the help and respect of lazar, and lazar will have the additional legitimacy of Karpov's respect and support.
Lazar already has a "Raichik" - Izya Kogan. Karpov should just be left alone to his thing, that's all.
left alone is aparently not good enough when you start factoring in Chamah, RJC, goldshmidt etc.
brother, you are factoring things you have no idea about as far as the implications of each in Moscow. Why not factor Pope into this as well? As a matter of fact i will write about this soon. How to factor Pope into this machlockes.
Tzemach,
No need for Attitude,
Once again you are accusing me of not knowing what is going on in Moscow,
But you dont need to realy understand the implications of each of these things to understand that:
A) karpov can not and will not be under Lazar. (and I agree that he is above that.)
B) Lazar will not give Karpov a free pass if he is affiliated with other groups.
I am going along with the assumption made in the jewish week article that karpov intimidates lazar, so I am suggesting that a raichik style solution where Karpov actually lends cedibility to lazar, (without being subordinate to him) might work.
but I am still looking forward to the "pope angle"
brother, the point that i find beyond annoying is that you asume B as given or the way it should be. Simply wait for my RJC update where i will address these issues, but i am loosing interest.
It is sad to me that a huge Jewish community is basically been taken over by a sectarian Jewish group.
With all due respect to Lubavitch , in no country Israel, U.S. France , Canada, Hungary, UK etc do they run the religious life of that nation.
Yet how can we blame them as few others are willing to step to the plate to the extent needed.
I have learnt recently that Yeshivashe circles do have reps in the CIS and of course there are Israeli reps too. But there are much too few of them there.
People like Karpov and other serious spiritual seekers tend to find themselves at odds with the political machers of Lubavitch.
Perhap a program could be arranged to put Karpov in touch with MO circles in the USA to fund his synagogue and programs.
Reb Atlas
Thanks for the interview with the Karpovs.
I have been following the state of Judaism in Soviet Russia from 1961-1 the end of Communism as my uncle was a Lubavitcher rosh yeshiva there many moons (75 years ago) ago.
I recall reading about the Maryna Roscha (sic) shul as early as the 1960's as the Communists made much use of the shul and its rav of the old school Rav Naton Nota Olevsky.
I recall pictures of the beautiful shul.I recall pictures of the rav which I still have in my personal archives.
In the years of Communism and organized hooligans the shul was never destroyed, yet a few years after the fall of Communism the historic structure was raised by a fire, and replaced with an ultra modern edifice.
What was the word on the Jewish street in Moscow about the circumstances about the fire ?
Reb Schneur, you wrote: ...a huge Jewish community has basically been taken over by a sectarian Jewish group...
Can you name a single "non-sectarian" Jewish group? Are you suggesting that the "MO circles" are "non-sectarian"? Everything in Jewish life has, unfortunately, become sectarian in the extreme – and it is only getting worse.
Unrelated: you were correct in asserting that RaSHaG’s shidduch was suggested by the Rebbe RaSHaB – I read that yesterday in a letter form the Previous Rebbe to Rav Havlin written around 1922.
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