mentalblog.com comments:
Reb Yassir LOL, LOL
a classic!
About Neturei-Karta, were they this radical during the lifetime of R'Amram Blau, e.g., uniting publicly with genocidal anti-Semitic terrorists, or is this a more recent phenomenom? "Drinking with the Israeli flag and a kasket" -LOOOL!
You'll have to check with AV for a more in-depth answer to this one, but I think Schneur is off the mark this time.
First, it is my understanding that R' Y"M Shechter is not at all the leader in Breslov that he is outside of Breslov. He is a Breslover, and a highly respected one, but among Brelovers I don't think he is viewed as a representative of "Daas Breslov."
But more to the point, Breslov has no central leader, and does not have any political positions - there are groups of Breslovers representative of every imaginable position you can think of... from MO to Neturei Karta, and everything in between.
I think that a statement like the one made on this post is less representative of the truth than all the propaganda that Tzemach is bothered by so much…
Hey, maybe we could have that! Multiple Lubavitcer leaders, from MO to Hip to even maybe Chareidi. Then we could all choose with whom to aline ouselves, and sholem al Yisroel.
Rabbi Schechter is affiliated with "mainstream" Eidah HaChareidis, not NK.
Chavakuk Elisha and Avremel are right.
It is interesting that I just came back from hisbodedus with two chaverim, and our conversation in the car was about a closely related inyan. How the "old" Breslevers from Uman and environs were NOT kanoyim at all, and how they were mekarev Zalman Shazar when he took an interest in Breslev until the Meah Shearim kitzonim offended him. (His comment at the time: "Reb Nachman also had redifos!")
The new core community became the Meah Shearim ex-Litvaks, who imported their sub-culture and politics to Breslev, and the elterer Chassidishe Yidden slowly were outnumbered and died out. Today's Breslev community is extremely diverse, representing almost every type of frum group on the spectrum -- from rock-and-rolling Na Nachs to Hungarian kanoyim (Williamsburg) to modern Israelis (Imanuel) to former prushim (Meah Shearim) to religious Zionists (Bat Ayin) to Shach party loyalists (Aryeh Deri) to kiruv-oriented Chareidi moderates (Tzefat). I have even met one or two Breslever einam yehudim (see Chayei Moharan 251).
Shneur -- please recall that Breslev in Eretz Yisrael has exploded from a core community of maybe 200 families in the 1970s to many many thousands of families today, with shtiblach all over the country. Only twelve editions of Likkutei Moharan had ever been published in 1967. Today multiple new editions are printed every year, and total sales from the last decade must be in the hundreds of thousands. So the Breslev scene has been through some radical changes.
Most of the manhigim / teachers I know are NOT in the Satmar camp, although Rav Shmuel Moshe Kramer is a kanoy, and Rav Yaakov Meir Schechter is affiliated with the Eidah ha-Chareidis. None that I ever heard of are in the NK camp, and most are more or less in the middle of the road. Rav Kenig of Tzefas is probably close to Chabad b'shittah (although I never asked him directly). Rav Natan Greenberg of Bat Ayin seems to be Breslev's answer to Rav Yitzchak Ginsburg. Rav Leizer Berland of Shuvu Banim is a religious Zionist, too. So take your pick!
PS: This may be news to some fellow members of chaburas mentalblog, so I really should mention it. In over twenty years of involvement in Breslev, I have almost never heard a political discussion at a shiur or public lecture or event. Rav Kenig shuns these subjects; so does Rav Schechter. Both horeveh in Torah and avodah and strive to be meifetz the same. Ditto the other Breslever mashpiyim.
I am told that a couple of years ago, a few Yerushalayimer yungeleit decided to form a Chareidi political group called "Matteh Breslev." When they told Rav Schechter about it, he was so upset that he had a heart attack and had to undergo an angioplasty.
B"H, the Rav recovered; for Matteh Breslov, however, the attack was terminal. Today there is still no official political wing of Breslev.
AV:What do you mean that Rav Kenig is close to Chabad beshitah?
I think he may have learned in Ponovizh, is that true?
I've heard that Rav Schechter is a saintly jew, who has had a lot of yissurim.
There is much false information provided here by Breslover partisans.They seek to defend one of their main spiritual leaders by calling him an Eda person rather than NK. Rabbi Yankev Meir Shechter together with Rabbis Dorfman and Kramer are the 3 chief spiritual leaders of the Main Line Breslover community in Jerusalem. Friends am I wrong on this point ? Schechter is regarded as the rosh hamedabrim . All proclomations etc by the Main line Breslover centered in the yeshiva in Meah Shearim are signed by him.
Furthermore Shechter is a leader in the Neture Karta , in as much as the NK pays lip service to the Eda he is also part of the Eda. In truth Shechter allies himself with the non activist branch of the NK not the one of Moshe Hirsch. Schechter is a spiritual leader of the NK. I happen to be very friendly with NK people here in the US and Schechter is their chief spiritual ideologue together with rabbi Beck in MOnsey. BUt Rabbosai even if Schechter is only an Eda leader (which I know he is not) do we know what the politics of the Eda are ? they refuse to recognize the state of Israel, they refuse to serve in the Army, they pray for the bittul of the Medinah, etc. They also gave birth to such characters as Moshe Hirsch and others in the US who are pro active in their anti Israel politics.
Thats not enough !!! And this man is THE MAIN SPIRITUAL LEADER OF BRESLOV today in Jerusalem.
Shechter is one of the 3 leading spiritual leaders of Breslov in Jslm. Why not e mail someone ( a honest broker)in Jslm to find out the truth ?Is Schechter an NK or not, Is he one of the 3 main spiritual leaders of Breslov today ? Adreba lets check it out !!!I apologize to the Breslov communityin the USA for outing their spiritual leader's politics as far as Israel goes.But the truth is the truth.
I have been reading the Anti Zionist Charedi press for 40 years I know what i speak of.
From reading DER YID one constantly hears fof the Breslover chasidim and most of their mosdos not accepting Israeli govt funds. This is a move that only groups like Satmar, Toldos Aron, Dushinsky and a few hard core kannoim (Tora ViYera )do and Breslov allows itself to allign itself with these groups.
I certainly am not saying that all bBreslover chasidim are Nk, as Breslov is not a central movement, but the virus of NK has been allowed to roam in that community.
There is another cross over figure that interests me . That is rabbi Joseph Sheinberger of Jerusalem. In Israel he is the official secy-director of the Eda hacharedith and has authored numerous books etc against Zionism and the state of Israel. In recent years others have outmanuvered him in the Eda men like rabbi Gershon Stemmer. He is not regarded as a rav or ish ruchni there rather a politician .BUt officialy he the Secy of the Eda and a die hard anti Zionist.His grandson has done teshuva and is the head of ZAKA Yehuda Meshi Zahav.
When in the US he portrays himself as a miracle worker and Zaddik , he avertises himself in THE JEWISH PRESS as the man who cares , he claims to be a miracle wroker a baal mofes and many naive Modern orthodox people go to him for berachios. I met a Brisker yungerman in WH last year who went to him for berahos and could not believe what I told him about Sheinberger. He holds court in one of the finer hotels in Boro Park. Could my Breslover friends deny this one too ?
with all due respect, being anti -zionist was the holding of almost every rabbi of great standing including the frierdige rebbe and the marshab zatzal
Schneur, I cannot comment on whether or not R' Shechter is close with NK or not - I simply don't know enough about that. But, I do know many Breslovers, and I've been to Uman a couple times; I have Bresolver relatives and I've met most of the Breslover leaders in my life.
I can only say that I stand by what I said before, and it is irresponsible to say that "Breslov" has a political position. Breslov is basically hefker - each individual has their own views, and R' Y"M only represents himself, he does not speak for "Breslov" (Although I have not heard any political statements against the "medina" in his name). Each Breslover brings their own hakdomos and views with them, to Breslov.
For those who asked: Rav Kenig's father R' Gedalya Kenig was a friend of Rav Kook, and a Chabadnick in his younger years, until he met, and became a talmid of, Reb Avrohom Sternhartz (the leading Bresolver Manhig at that time). His son Reb Elazar Mordechai, the Manhig of Breslov in Tzefas is a political moderate, very pro-Chabad - and not at all aligned with the kaboyim. He was very critical of Rav Shach's opposition to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, but did respect him for who he was as well.
Being that I am not a Breslover, and cannot fully address this, I will have to leave the more specific questions to people like AV.
Thats my point. In the old days people like rav Kenig and Rav Odesser were friendly to the medinah. And today by the admission of the other readers on this site at least 2 of the 3 main leaders of BReslov are at least part of the Eda hacharedith. Not bad for an interesting transformation.
I also know rav bender was not a kanoi.I have the greatest admiration for rabbonim Kenig, Bender, Rosen etc . But I was shocked myself when the Breslover name with their leaders keep cropping up in reference to the Eda and the KN in Israel.
The Rayaatz was a kanoi before the medinah. Afterwards he shifted gears as did most gedolim . Remember he started KFAR CHABAD !
As far as the Eda goes, lets look at the chasidic groups that do not belong to the EDa and are anti EDA : BELZ< GER< KLUIZENBERG< VISHNITZ< CHABAD
Just a clarification I am not accusing Breslover of being anti-Zionist as such, but the direction of its spiritual leaders is an influence that can not be ignored. Of course there are all sorts of different groups in Breslav.
Let me just talk about 3 smaller groups. there is a growing group of haymische Breslover from Monroe led by Rabbi Schwartz. This is probably because the VaYoel Moshe himself loved Rav Nachman.
Rav Berland although of a religious Zionist background and a activist in the Old City has been getting good treatment in the anti Zionist Charedi press. And rabbi Admor Schick himself in his journal has made some sympathetic remarks about the Satmar position. Of course the Main liners can not and should not be held responsible for these trends.
I just wish there were still some Ukranian or Polish Breslovers to set the tone in Breslev.
Has anyone seen the correspondence between Israel Ber Odesser and Pres. Zalman Shazar. Truely amazing stuff !!
off topic: Schneur, is this the time to speak about Mayer Schiller?
http://bloghd.blogspot.com/2004/...r-
schiller.html
Mayer Schiller is a fascinating man . He is also very controversial. He is also a good friend of mine. I am hardly objective about a good friend whose opinions I value greatly.
He is a sincere believer in what he believes.
If someone else chooses to discuss him, i will certainly jump in.By the way my long standing friendship
with him proves that my comments about the NK etc are not meant in any personal manner.
Can you ask him to suggest a topic here? I know he posted on Protocols. So he is welcome to submit something according to the truth the way he sees it. He is obviously a man of spiritual and intellectual intensity, one has to admire that.
Shneur et al.
I don't have time to read all of this carefully, but I get the drift of your ta'anos. Please let me try to clarify a bit.
First, you can't trust the NK who are desperate to recruit supporters, and like PETA and other radical political groups, thrive on publicity stunts, bold claims, etc.
As I said before, Rabbi Schechter is a gadol ba-Torah and an ohev Yisrael, not a political figure. Like many gedolim )including the RaSHaB) he is personally against Zionism. But he does not belong to the NK and does not give soap box droshos "kegen der medina." Ditto Rav Shmuel Moshe Kramer. You should read their seforim and I'm sure you will walk away with a very different idea. Rav Michel Dorfman certainly has nothing to do with the kanoyim.
Rav Shamshon Shvartz of Monroe is a sincere oved Hashem and talmid chochom, born and bred in Satmar. No surprise that he takes the Satmar political line. However, he and his circle of talmidim / chaverim do not even daven with the rest of the 'olam in Uman but rent their own space, a house about a 10 min. walk away. So I would not say that they are very representative. In fact, the Na Nachs, who are quite marginal, probably outnumber the kanoyim!
Smell the roses! Breslev is NOT a political movement, but a derekh in avodas Hashem. It is more individual-oriented than any other Chassidic group, and this leaves room for diversity in many things -- including the thorny problem of Zionism!
Re. where Rav Kenig, learned I think he did go to Ponevez. During those years, when Breslev was relatively small, most Breslever Chassidim sent their bochurim to Litvishe yeshivos so that they would not be peer-pressured into joining other Chassidic groups. However, during the machlokes between Rav Shach and the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he gave one of his rare (and brief) political talks to his talmidim -- in strong support of Chabad.
Suerely we should be using Breslov as a model?
News Flash From Williamsburg:
Unzer tirer chaver Reb Nochum Parizer (a Toldos Aharon renegade and quasi-Breslever who plays bluegrass mandolin, banjo, and guitar) informs me that Rav Yaakov Meir Schechter of Breslev has NO connection whatsoever to Neturei Karta and shuns politics --
but he has a relative of the SAME NAME who belongs to the NK!
This seems to be the source of Reb Schneur's mistake.
Thanks Nochum!
From R. Levi Yitzchak Bender's Siach Sarfei Kodesh, chelek gimel (si'if 557:
[Reb Avraham b'reb Nachman, a leading Breslever who passed away at the time of the Russian revolution] once predicted:
'Od lifnei biyas ha-go'el kevar yihiyeh kibbutz vi-yishuv gadol shel Yisrael bi-Eretz Yisrael, u-viviyas ha-go'el yisvasfu 'alehem she'ar kibutzei Yisrael she-bi-chutz la-aretz; vi-diyek zos me-hane'emar ba-kasuv: " 'Od akabetz 'alav li-nikbatzav" -- haynu, she-HaKadosh Baruch Hu yosif li-kabetz bi-viyas ha-go'el es Yisrael mi-pizurav she-bikhol ha-'olam el ha-kibutz ha-mikubatz kevar bi-Eretz Yisrael.
This was said probably forty years before the establishment of the Medinah (or more). In 1894, Reb Avraham b'reb Nachman moved from the Ukraine to EY, but traveled back and forth to Uman every year for the Breslev Rosh Hashanah gathering.
If there are 2 Reb Yankev Meir Shechters in Jerusalem who are rabbonim , I in fact was confused and apologize to the readers for my confusion. And a special apology to the Breslever community.I am still waiting a reply from my source in Jslm, but I presume the information offered by the Paritcher Chasid is correct.
Shneour:It's Nochum PARIZER(as in Paris)and he is a very interesting and cool guy.
Dear Malach,
I know Reb Nachum very well. And he knows me too. Both of us enjoy Irish music and Yiddish literature. My spelling of Paritch was a play on words of the city in White Russia famous in Chabad history as Paritch as in Reb Hillel of Paritch.
Regards to Reb Nachum. I hope he knows who I am .
who cam tell me about the malochim of nyc fame
As far as the M'lochim go please see richard Alpert Gods Middlemen. Jerome Mintz also deals with them in his alst book about chasidim in th USA.
So much confusion about Breslov. The Breslover Rebbe, Rebbe Nachman, wrote clearly against heretics. And for our day it would refer to the heretic abominators of the Zionist state. For instance:
1) There are wild and savage animals who are the scholars of the natural sciences who want to show with their knowledge that everything is according to laws of nature, and they ruin many of our people; many Jews have fallen into these ideas. THESE SOULS ARE LIKE TRAPPED BIRDS. THEREFORE, ANYONE WHO CARES ABOUT HIS SOUL MUST ESCAPE FROM THEM, AND NOT ALLOW HIS SOUL TO BE RUINED BY THESE IDEAS THAT ARE VERY POWERFUL.
(Kitzur Likutei Moharan, Part 2, #4, sec. 8 )
2) The primary part of loving one's fellow Jew are Jews who follow the Torah, since it is a mitzvah to hate the total evildoers [who seek to uproot Judaism] who have no good in them at all, just like it is written, the goal of hatred is hating them. The main fact of the commandment of loving your fellow is your fellow in mitzvot.
(Likutei Halachos, Birchas HaRe'iya, Halacha 4, #4)
3) On the sect that studies secular sciences and only study the written Torah, and who ignore the Talmud are like the Karaites, to whomever is familiar with their ideas. All their studies are evil, and their commentaries are evil. They are based on the ideas of the famous heretics like Aristotle and his associates, may their memories be obliterated. One must stay away from these groups and their books to the furthest extent possible, even further than from other sinners. These types are referred to in the phrase Anyone who goes in there never comes out. They will never attain true life, as is known to all those familiar with Judaism and the enormous evil of those sects. May G-d protect us from them and their followers.
(Likutei Halachos, Hilchos Shabbos, Halacha 5, #13)
4) Therefore King David opened his book of Psalms with the phrase, Happy is he who does not follow the advice of the wicked, because THIS IS THE MAIN POINT OF THE TORAH, TO STAY AWAY FROM THE ADVICE OF THE WICKED WHO ARE THE MAIN PART OF THE POISON OF THE SERPENT that was brought into the world by the sin of Adam, and thus negatively affecting truth and faith which are the main part of the Torah.
(Likutei Halachos, Hilchos Giluach, Halacha 4, #14)
5) And the fourth shell [kelippa] is the intermediary one (kelippas noga) between holiness and the profane. This is the source of the animal soul and is the aspect of the evil sciences of the world. Some of them call themselves "hassidim" and talk about idiotic ideas that deter a person from Hashem and his Torah and Tzadikkim. They are the aspect of kelipas noga mixed with good and bad. They have alot of good because they don't give up the Torah entirely, and some are partially kosher and speak words of truth. HOWEVER, MIXED WITH THEM IS ALSO ALOT OF EVIL, THAT IS, THEIR OWN IDEAS WHICH THEY THINK IS REAL KNOWLEDGE. In fact they are just idiocy.
They cause alot of damage and prevent a person from drawing close to the Tzadikkim of Truth and their disciples who bring out G-dly wisdom. Actually these types are more dangerous than any non-Jew or outright heretic could be. Most believing Jews would know not to accept the ideas of these latter groups. However, they don't stay away from the ideas of this type, the partially kosher people who are actually even more dangerous than the others. They cause a great deal of damage with their ideas and mockery when they mock the ways of truth and innocence.
Our holy books teach us that the main test and clarification in the world is of kellipas noga, which is mixed with good and evil. Because they have some good in them, there is a greater ability to for evil to draw sustenance from them.
(Likutei Halachos, Halacha Nezikin, Halacha 4, #28 )
6) The main thing is to educate one's children to follow the path of holiness as we received from our forefathers, just as we are warned in the verses of Shma, And teach them to your children, etc….and thus keep them away from the evil sects that arose in our generation to uproot, G-d forbid, Jewish youth from the foundations of our holy religion.
(Likutei Halachos, Halacha Priya Urivya, Halacha 5, #3)
7) One must strongly keep away from the values of the masses that are mostly evil and degenerate values, and how much moreso the values of the Wicked who opposed the Truth. One must stay away from them even more, because all the degeneracy and ruination comes from them. Their values are the aspect of the ideas of the Original Serpent, and when one accepts their values, they are injecting into themselves the poison in the aspect of marriage [nisu'in] of kelippa as it is written, "The serpent hasi'ani".
(Kitsur Likutei Moharan, #7, (10 )
8 ) When a person prays in a minyan where there are wicked people, they may throw him down spiritually. The technique to protect oneself from them is to raise one's hand up during prayers.
(Sefer HaMidos, Falling, Part 1, #12)
10) Whoever looks favorably upon an evildoer is also called an evildoer.
(Sefer HaMidos, Staying Away from Evildoers, Part 1, #6)
11) A person should keep away from a kiss of an Evildoer, because through the kiss there is a link between them even after death.
(Sefer Hamidos, ibid., Part 2, #3)
12) Stay away from Evildoers lest you be caught in their punishment.
(Sefer Hamidos, ibid., Part 1, #2)
13) G-d will send salvation to whomever stays away from Evildoers.
(ibid., #14)
14) Association with the Wicked is injurious to service of G-d.
(ibid., #18 )
Dovy, You began your post as follows:
"So much confusion about Breslov. The Breslover Rebbe, Rebbe Nachman, wrote clearly against heretics. And for our day it would refer to the heretic abominators of the Zionist state."
Basically that is all you wanted to say; the quotes have nothing to do with Zionists/Zionism (or any other "ism' for that matter).
Your assertion is debatable, and you never made your case. Try again...
I think I know this guy, too.
He spends all day and night spouting NK venom and quoting stuff like the above, ad nauseum.
Bikitzur -- Reb Noson says (more than once) that to be mekarev another Yid is worth more than all other avodahs put together.
And Reb Nachman says that we must look for the nekudos tovos even in a rasha gamur (LM I, 282, where it is mashma that the rasha no longer performs ANY mitzvos...)
I can never get enough of this type of logic.
First, find someone you don't like. Next, find some strong statements that you can manipulate. Finally, apply those statements, with any kind of logic you can find, to your target. Presto - everyone you like agrees with you!
It's the good-old, tried and true, paint the target around the arrow technique. If I had a dollar for every time this method of debate has been tried, I'd be sitting in Kollel and getting Smicha.
UGH! My post is marked "Anonymous" again - It's mine.
I don't think it's proper to remove my latest postings, nor even those of my bar-plugta......
Did you read what Reb Avraham b'Reb Nachman wrote in Alter Vitebsker's comment about 12 entries above, dated 04.10.05 - 2:56 pm?
Most of the Russian Breslever Chassidim who came to E"Y in the 1920s-1930s would probably qualify as Tzionim by your standards. They were certainly not kanoyim, but tried to be mekarev the "frier" youth, in some cases even by traveling to secular kibbutzim to speak with the Jewish brothers about Yiddishkeit.
To be honest, I don't even know if we can pursue conversation here, since the moderator likes to delete messages, and we will never know before putting effort into our postings whether what we write is in vain. In any event, the issue is not kiruv (with emphasis on raising people up, not watering down Yiddishkeit to fit modern life, or hunting for baal teshuvas), but explaining the full truth to Jews, and not hide the facts about Zionism.
Everything was previously deleted. Even my explanation of Torah Resh Peh Beis. The moderator should be more tolerant. If a fuller discussion of Neturei Karta is desired, I can work on that, but I will certainly not want to do so if I have to worry that censors resembling Pravda or Izvetsia are going to discard the fruits of my efforts.
How about Reb Noson's remark that he could be melamed zechus even on someone "who broke every din in the Torah 800 times?"
And Reb Nachman's attempts to be mekarev the maskilim of Uman, practically with his dying breath?
This is a very different "ruach" than that of the kanoyim, who denounce other Jews (rather than false beliefs that they, nebich, have fallen into) (Satmar) and walk arm in arm with sonei Yisrael and rotzchim (NK).
Cut it out. Rabbenu did not go out hunting for Hirsh Ber and the other maskilim. They came TO HIM! And they were alot more open minded about truth than are plenty of the frummelach of today!! And PLEASE reply why NK are walking with "sonei Yisrael and rotzchim" but when R. Ovadiah Yosef met with Sheikh Yassin, that's fine. And when the leaders of the Sefardi community in Flatbush ran to the funeral of President Assad and met his son, that's fine, and NO ONE curses them out? Or even Omri Sharon, who used to meet with Arafat every Monday and Thursday? Or Zionist Katsav who shook hands with the "head terrorists" Assad and Khatami in Rome?? Where are the curses and posters against all of them?? Oh, I forgot, only Zionists are allowed to go to meet Arabs. Shame on me.
Shame on you.
I couldn't agree more.
You couldn't agree more about what?? That there is a double standard and two-faced attitude when it comes to meeting with the "anti-semitic" Arabs? One standard for Zionists and one standard for anti-Zionists??
Dovy... The ridiculousness of your comparison is so obvious that it's not worth debating.
If you have no problem with NK supporting the Arafats of the world, then you are a sick puppy my friend.
All the best - As my friend Tzemach quoted above "L'Alter L'Tshuva, L'Alter L'geula." May this Shviyi Shel Pesach be with Geula... Kimei tzescha mimitzrayim arenu niflaos, Amen.
Chabakuk, why do you engage in denial?? WHY is it permitted for Zionist leaders and rabbis and community leaders to meet and smile with "rotzchim," but not for Neturei Karta?
Why do I engage denial?! That's a good question - R' Dovid, let me ask you the same thing.
For the purpose of clarification, I will just say this:
I do not claim that the pervasive anti-frum element of the Israeli government, or secular Israeli culture in general, is something that I approve of. There are certainly many atheist Jews there, who will need great rachamei shamayim after 120 - and I do not approve of their actions al all. I would just note, that the so called “Zionists” that are just falling over themselves to give anything to the Arabs are not any better than the NK.
But if you think that Arab rule of Eretz Yisroel is better for Yidden, I can only imagine that you have been brain-washed. And the NK policy of supporting people who murder yiddin in cold blood, are worse than any “Zionist” that does not.
The fact that politicians meet with the enemies of klal yisroel in an effort to protect Eretz Yisroel, may even be misguided - but is something that can be understood. It is very different than seeking out, befriending and supporting those who wish all Yidden dead.
You are engaging in denial and fallacious reasoning. You guys jump around from issue to issue. You know perfectly well that no one seriously is moyche against anyone speaking to an Arab because the Zionists are considered the ones who set the tone and agenda and hashkafa. So if today the Knesset would call Bush a terrorist, Zionists would obediently accept that. If the Knesset said that Palestinians are the devil, they would accept that.
But for security, security only comes from Hashem, and Chazal say there is no shechina in the place of arayos, which is the Zionist army. Plus, eyn a safek moytsi midey vaday......Isn't Jewish suffering caused by SIN?? So what are you complaining about? Haven't you read about the punishment for violating the Three Oaths?
And as far as "protecting Eretz Yisroel" you know perfectly well that this is NOT why Zionists meet with Arabs. And you know PERFECTLY WELL why Neturei Karta meets with them: to demonstrate that not all Jews are silent about the injustices and rishus committed by the Zionist sinful regime. So spare us the pontificating.....
Oh really?
That explains why your buddies were saying Tehillim for that great lover of the Jews, Yassar Arafat Y"S.
I see no point in this dialogue any more. I think your nuts and anti-semetic, and you think I'm representing evil.
Now that this has been established, go have a nice life.
Chavakuk Elisha, why do you argue with people like this?
What do you expect to accomplish?
(Maybe you could talk him into becoming a Lubavitcher Meshichist and take him off our hands?)
My, my. Such impatience. Denial and diversion. But inability to address the SUBSTANCE of issues directly?!
dudes: you are all wasting your time. do some hisbodedus or learn some torah
Now that it's clear that the Breslover Rav YM Schechter is NOT with NK (whereas someone else with the same name is with NK) do yourself a favor and delete references to him in this thread. How many people are going to wander down to the comment revealing the above info?? Better yet, delete the whole thread and do something constructive.
Interesting dicussion. Rev Avrohom Shternhartz zy"o once said, that tziyoynus is a klipo shekoydemes lepeyri. Breslovers don't go for mistaken notions of whitewashing tziyoynim, like gush emunim doo. And anyone today with open eyes will admit that tziyoynus is just a klipo. But Breslovers don't go for NK as well, who make pretty crooked conclusions out of this all. But don't forget - klipo is a klipo, and one who says on tomey tohoyr - is lying.
dear fellow yidden
i think that both nk and extreme kachist zionism are wrong and not torah. also rav y.b.odesser , if , as is alleged, all secular and frum yidden not believing in the petek
who were in the shoa would go to gehinnom. kenayut is wrong from anyone.
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