mentalblog.com comments:
Unfortunately the issue of both nepotism and "binyan adei ad" is alive and flourishing in Australia as well.
Pinchas Feldman in Syndey, with the active help of his wife, all but destroyed the Chabad community in that city and caused a huge chillul Hashem (and chillul Lubavitch). Fortunately there are a other groups of Lubavitchers who have formed their own shuls and moisdos which are flourishing.
In Melbourne Yizchok Groner is heading in the same direction. While he was a great force in building yiddishkeit in the 60s, 70s & 80s age, health problems and a community which had grown bigger than he can handle (maybe that should be "control") has caused the community to stagnate. He insists on trying to control all moisdos and actively works against people who want to form new organisations - be they Chabad Houses or schools.
From my experience this phenomenon is not unusual in Chabad. There seems to be a lot of insecurity out there amongst community leaders be they shluchim, school principals or whatever. I know of cases in the States where shluchim have made life unbearable for teachers and assistant shluchim they have hired when those people have proven popular and shown talents which may eclipse those of the head shaliach.
Another example I saw of this was when I lived in NY and davened at a small shul run by a Chabad rabbi. When he would be away on a Shabbos he would always arrange a family member or close friend to take over.
The bottom line is that the time has come for baalei batim have more say in the running of their communities. The head rabbi or shaliach will only retain respect when he lets capable people participate of the running of the institutions.
The problem is that in many places, the HS has strong influence with the g'virim who effectively help him stay in power.
He peddles the influence and they help him stay in power, in many cases, all at the expense of the kehilla.
In the case of Sydney, would anash have been able to get rid of RPF if he hadn’t had that falling out with his brother-in-law?
Reb Schneur's ideology-driven diagnosis sounds extremely misleading to me. I say "misleading" instead of "faulty" because it is hard to believe that he doesn't know better.
Having started out as a Modern Ortho who mutated to a so-called "Chareidi" (albeit not a card-carying one), I have seen both worlds -- and each has MAJOR problems. For example, the MO shuls where the vicious and religiously conflict-ridden baalebatim roast the rabbi over the coals at least three or four times a year just to see his skin get crispy, and in which the tenure of the rov is an average of 2-3 years. And he is answerable to the congregants, who are mostly am-ho'oratzim, for any possibly unpopular positions he may take, on penalty of getting kicked out minus severance pay.
In short, there are no easy solutions to these problems. Except to produce really bright erlicher galernter baalebatim AND rabbonim dedicated to the highest ideals of Yiddishkeit... and that's not easy at all!
No doubt Yossel helped in the demise of Feldman.
The problem of many head shluchim seems to be that they do not respect their baalei batim or realise that without them they will not have a community. It is frustrating to many of us who want to contribute to our communities that we are brushed aside. Then we hear the HS complaining that no one is helping "the cause".
The stories I could tell....
In Sydney the b/batim who took over the school from Feldman are showing the sam dictatorial tendancies, they are headed by Meir Moss who has put in a lot of money so believes he can call the shots and appoint whoever he wants to high position like his wife.
Its the same thing as before!!!
So lets hear some stories ;) I could tell you a few of my own!
Alter Vitbebsker, what about the Chareidim that you know, how do they go on with their Rabonim?
I thought that Meir's wife already had a major role in the school for many years. In any case she must be better than Pnina!!
This whole nepotism issue is also not as simple as Schneur makes it. We Jews do have a long-standing tradition of children inheriting spiritual leadership positions whenever possible. This is how this idea is presented in ספרא, פרשת אחרי מות :
לכהן תחת אביו - מלמד שהבן קודם לכל אדם. יכול אף על פי שאין ממלא מקומו של אביו? תלמוד לומר "ואשר ימלא את ידו" - בזמן שהוא ממלא מקומו של אביו הוא קודם לכל אדם, ואם אינו ממלא מקומו של אביו - יבוא אחר וישמש תחתיו
The dicey part is who exactly can decide in a particular situation if the son isממלא מקומו של אביו (worthy to "fill his father’s shoes") or not. Most parents are not able to be objective about their kids. So what does one do? Leave this kind of a decision up to the בעלי בתים אשר דעתום היפך דעת תורה ?
בעלי בתים אשר דעתום היפך דעת תורה
Yes, very useful phrase ;)
And why exactly do you think that this does not equally apply to most shluchim who are NOT involved in Torah all day but in fundraising, counselling, running schools, restaurants, day-care centres, etc etc? Don’t get me wrong, these are all good things but nevertheless I think it puts them into the same category as those most despised creatures, בעלי בתים
It sure does apply to most sheluchim.
OK so we are back to square one, we are all בעלי בתים נעבעך
Many of my critics are off base. Daas Baal habatim being the hefech of daas Torah refers to Ruchniuth inyonim NOT Gashmiuth. And friends that is just a rabbinic maxim , since when does any serious scholar use that as abasis for a serious Psak ? No one is suggesting that Mr. Schottenstein tell Rabbi Hershel Schacter at RIETS how to teach Talmud or what to teach. On the other hand I am suggesting that schools not be run by 1 family which has complete control over that instiotution , both in the spiritual and materials domains. And this control passes on to various family members.
The area of inheritance is not as simple as the writers claim it is. Both from an Aggadic and Halachic point of view. Moshe Rabbeinu was not yarshend by his children. Also see a very interesting issue of the journal JEWISH HISTORY sevral years ago which had a complete issue dedicated to a scholarly study of Yerusha and dynastic succession in the rabbinate. Things are not as simple as the writers here claim them to be. see also the teshuva of the Divre Chaim about yerusha where he makes distinctions between yarshening the position of rebbe and rav.
In general in East Europe a rav was picked by the baale batim and that was true in Hungary, Poland Lithuania and germany. Even yerusah was not always a dominant consideration. Shuls belonged to kohol , not the rabbi, Talmud Tores were not private institutions , they were run by kohol. Even the few yeshivas had some communal control as we see in the machlokes in Volozhin as to who should succeed Rav Itzele as the Rosh. It was a tribunal of Lithuanian rabbis who decided in favor of the Neziv over Rav Soloveitchik not the rebbetzins or a family circle.
But that is not what I am talking about , I am not talking about the rabbinate , I refer to families taking over schools and other institutions and running them without any imput from the parents and baale batim and local rabbis. This has litle to do with yerusha in any case.
Should day schools and yeshivas be run by 1 family in both the educational and material areas ? I posit the answer is NO.
Yes, but if can ignore for a moment the חסידישע טייטש of this phrase, on its very basic level it says that the "בעלי בתים" inevitably form their opinions under a strong influence of contemporary societal norms. The outrage over nepotism on this blog is a good example of this. Therefore, I posit, you can't leave such decisions in the hands of people who may not appreciate that דעת תורה may not agree with a particular societal norm. The answer, I am afraid, will always have to be sought from real רבנים.
Things are not as simple as the writers here claim them to be.
Precisely my point.
So all we need to find is a REAL Rov, or the son or son-in-law of a real Rov?
Schneur, can you please follow up your comments with more precise references (specific books and page numbers - obviously at some latter point). I would like to read many of the items refer to.
Lack of communal owernership in individual schools and other mosdos is only half the problem. In many of these places the powers that be forbid any other members of Anash from opening other mosdos in the city.
Look what happened in Chicago.
As far as being ideology driven in my campaign against Nepotism.. Friends lets look at 2 very important kehilloth that are not Modern orthodox but publically run.These are very charedi communities.
Firstly Khal Adas Jeshurun known as Breuers . This community is run by baale batim . Its rabbis have included Dr. J. Breuer, Rav Schwab and the current incumbent rabbi Zecharya Gelley. As we speak not one of these personalities has any relatives in the community's rabbinical structure or yeshiva hanhola. That is despite many capable people in these 3 families . Rabbi Breuer and Rabbi Schwab did leave yorshim and some who easily could have led the community . They were considered etc , but eventually other reasons dominated. This kehilla does not consider firing its rabbi every year as Mr. Vitebsker writes. The yeshiva of this community which is a full boys and girlls day school high school and beth medrash is not run by 1 family . It is run by laymen.
Next the Vienner kehilla in Williamsburg Khal adas Yereim is again not owned by 1 family. Its current rav Rav Katz of the serdehel-Szombothel rabbinic family was ELECTED by kohol as rav and its not shocking when chasidim in Williamsburg tell me that he is the most effective rov in that area. Again their schools and rabbinate etc are not controlled by either the katz's, Leibowitz's or Steiff families , they are run by kohol.So please stop defending Nepotistic practices on the basis of a misleading charge that what I wriote is ideology driven.
By the way frum schools like Teyre VeDaas and Rabbi chaim Berlin (do you consider them Charedi ?)are also not run by 1 family. I just received a beautiful history of Chaim Berlin and you will note it was founded and led by laymen. Of course rav Hutner dominated the place but thats how it hould be the rosh should set policies etc , but ownership ? Man dekara sheme ???
This friends has nothing to do with hashkofa it has everyhting to do with zedek and yosher !
And the rabbonim , Lubavitcher and others are immune to societal norms ? In that case we should all run to get semicha...
Daas Baal habatim ... refers to matters of hashkofe. If the treasurer o the yeshiva says we owe the govt $40,000 and we ought to pay them , that is not the opposite of daas torah. His opinion should decide.
If the president of the yeshiva suggests hiring a history teacher who spent a few years at JTS that is a case of hepech daas Torah . !!!
And even there daas toarh is promolgated by a board of rabbonim in the community not by a single family.
I say all of this excepting the Chasidic world where dynastical succession is the norm.
Friends lets stop defending Nepotism.
As far as Modern orthodox shuls go, Mr. Vitebsker is also off base.
Certainly many MO shuls have rabbinic issues. And others have the same rabbi for as long as one can recall. Many of the large Young israels in the Boro of Queens have been led by qualified rabbis for years . Examples are rabbis Fabian Schoeneld, rabbi Krauss, and others.
Ceeding ownership of the shul to a "enobled rabbinical class" is not the only way to ensure competent rabbinic leadership.
Let me remind our friends of a maxim of the zaddik rav Israel Lipkin of Salant . A Rav whom the kohol does not want to remove is not a rav, and a rav whom kohol does remove is not a mentch... Think about it.
What gain is there in "selling" a institution to 1 family for the sake of stability. Chassiduth teaches us that a mentch is a geyer not a shteyer.Who says stability is always a posative thing ?? A malach is frozen , a human and a human society moves up and down .
Schneur, you asked: What gain is there in "selling" a institution to 1 family for the sake of stability?
I just re-read what I wrote here as well as what AV wrote (which is, btw, unrelated to my comments). And I am completely baffled. What did either of us say that even hits at supporting this idea? All I said was that the whole issue of nepotism has two sides and is difficult to resolve. Period. (AV expressed a similar sentiment regarding the issue of a shul being run by the board.)
Now, as far as the ירושה of Rabbinic positions is concerned, in all of the countries of Europe you mentioned, the קהל did give serious consideration to the יורשים in filling the Rabbinic positions. Surely you can yourself come up with a long list of Rabbonim whose sons or sons-in-law inherited their positions. Not to mention those cases where a Rov simply left a צוואה to appoint his son. (More recently, Bnei Brak circa 1985 comes to mind as well).
Berl, if you develop an argument that clearly points to a definite conclusion. And don't actually make the conclusion yourself. Then someone else comments and concludes your argument for you. You can't constantly through your arms in the air and complain that you did not say it. I can not believe this.
Atlas, that is a good point. And I will try to make note of it.
I will make this request though: I am very literal by nature, so if you conclude my argument for me, please make mention that the conclusion is yours (it only takes 2-3 extra words). Also sometimes the conclusion is patently wrong. In this thread, for instance, Schneur's conclusion was forewarned & rejected by me in my original comment.
Also, I may actually not realize that an argument I advanced clearly pointed to a particular conclusion. Clarifying that to me may change my thinking on the subject. Simply telling me I "said such & such" will just enrage me.
I used "selling" in a non lieral sense, as in ceeding power to.
If you read the article by Dr. Mordechai Breuer in JEWISH HISTORY about rabbinic succession yuou will note that until modern times (the early 19th century)very few sons or son in laws directly succeded their fathers in the last position held by the father. It was usually only after some other rav held the position that a yoresh MAY have been called to sit in his father's chair.
Berl. You give Bnai Brak and the struggle over Reb Moshe Leib landau suceeding to his father's position as shdot rav of BB as an example.
In that case Lubavitch came out in favor of hereditary sucession as Reb Moshe leib was a chasid of chabad (his father was not a chasid of the Rayaatz and certainly not of Dor Shvii). And all attempts by the large Lithuanian community in BB came to naught.They started their own community Shearith israel.
BUT in Tsefas when Chief rabbi Kaplan died about 10 years ago, (he was at least the 3rd in his family to hold the rabbinate in Zefas)Chabad would not even hear of his son or son in law a chasuve ben Torah suceeding him on the basis of hereditary sucession.
Why, because their candidate the late rav Bistrizky (an American Lubavitcher) wanted the job of chief rabbi, a deal was struck with secular parties and SHAAS and walla Bistrizky was chief rabbi not Kaplan's son or son in law. Please explain that to me ???
My point nothing is black and white . Politics and personality play a large role in these issues.
The concept of Nepotism is in Rambam, that if the son is capable of filling his father's shoes, he takes the position.
As far as Rabbis controlled by communities, this is a complete DAAS BAALE BATIM which is HEFECH DAAS TORAH, as it was always that the Rov set the tone in anything spiritual, and the community would obey.
Schneour:Congratulations on 'chapping' Lubavitch's contradictory behaviour.Forcing R'Moshe Landau down a large portion of Bnei Brak, screaming 'yerusha,yerusha', while fighting tooth and nail R'Kaplans son in TzfaS.Btw, same thing happened in Kiryat Gat,Rabbi Gershtenkorn, a Gerer chosid died, leaving a son, however Lubavitch who are powerful, got R'Havlin, the rosh yeshiva to take on a new job.Chief rabbi.Nu,nu.It's all about power,Lubavitch seeks world domintation and will do whatever they can to accomplish their Rebbes goal.
Russia and Australia are examples of what happens when Lubavitch get to powerful and how suffocating and corrupt the congregations they take over become.Thankfully, in Sydney, they have self imploded and the local community has seen their true face.One Lubavitch 'rabbi' actually, beat up another 'rabbi' and sent him to hospital.The local gevirim are fed up with bailing their failed school time and time again.The court case between those two 'rabbis' and brothers in law added even more 'kiddush shem Lubavitch veHarebbe'
Russia jewry too is starting to understand what Lubavitch is truly about.
Even in the cases for nepotism in Tanach, kings and Kohen Gadol, the son must be able to fill the shoes of the father. This idealized system only works with storybook trustworthy tzadikim, not with regular people. In, all the stories of Rebbes and sons and grandsons ad infinitim, the Rav is always a tzadik, with everyone's best interests at heart. When we are dealing with practical reality, with self interested people, who view their rabanus as a personal, unaudited tenure and entitlement, I would suggest that the better parallel is the story of Eli and his sons or Korach.
It is harmful, negative, destructive to turn over the spiritual needs of a community, particularly chinuch, to a person just because everyone knew who his father was.
To listen to Charedim rail against democracy, it reminds me of a tape that we heard from Zarqawi a while back.
Friend. Throughout tefuzoth Israel rabbis were elected by kohol. Rabbis did not appoint roshe kohol , rather parnasim and baale batim appointed or elected the rav. This is the way it always was.
By the way this is the manner that the 7th Rebbe the Lubavitcher rebbe advised the baale batim to chose a rabbinate in Crown Hts through elections.
The rav set the tone in spiritual matters ein hochi nami, did he also decide to give himself a pay raise, did he decide how much every baal habos should be menadev at aliyas leTorah . Did he decide who the shochetim should be ?? This is pure nonsense !This is the key even if a son took over he did not get control over kohol , only over Inyaniim ruchniim. Gabboim, roshe kohol and parnassim decided material affairs.
If a son was raui ( suitable) and nisraze lekohol he may have more consideration. But as I stated in my earlier posting these are complex issues. And as far as I recall only a small portion of Yemenite Jews pasken according to the RAMBAM in general. .If the Rambam were the final voice on this why did the 19th century gaon Reb Chaim Halberstam and others need to pasken about this matter ??
I will post the edition number of JEWISH HISTORY magazine and people can read about these issues in a intellegent manner .
Malach.
Thanks for the message.
In many instances Lubavitch as a political party is strictly interested in furthering its own interests. This is not meant as a insult to individual lubavitchers, but as a political party which it is, it acts as such.
In Bnai Brak , most of kohol are not Chabad yet they screamed yerusha. Fine if thats the case let yerusha also be the final factor in Tsefas. A nechtike tog. No way
By the way I heard after R. levi Bistrizky died , now the Chabad people in Tsefas are screaming yerusha so his young son can yarshen the rabbinate. Oy Vey !
I think you mean Kiryath Malachi , not Kiryath Gath.
Rabbi Havlin is the Cheif Rabbi of Kiryat Gat.
In Vien, one of the reasons there may have been elections was because the previous Viener Rav, Reb Ezriel Yehuda Lebevoich, died without any children.
Vien -Adas Yereim is a kehilla it is not the private fiefdom of any one family. There are lay leaders who direct this community.True the Rav leibowitz had no children but he too was elected and none of Rav Steiff's children were chosen.
R. Gershtekorn was the chief rabbi of Kiryath Malachi. His father was the mayor of Bnai Brak. Havlin is in Giryath Gas.
Ramaz is a bit different. Yes, there is a board that runs the school. However, it has thus far been a family school. The current principal, R' Haskel Lookstein, is the son of the founder, R' Joseph Lookstein. R' H. Lookstein's son, R' Josh, was being groomed to take over, but decided he didn't want the twin responibility of the large shul (Kehillath Jeshurun) and the large top-notch school (Ramaz, over 1000 kids I think). Josh is currently doing foundation work (fundraising and allocating grants).
R Lookstein doesn't do much with the everyday administration of the school, but he does set the tone of the place, and serves as court of last resort in disputes between students, administration and faculty.
thanbo
ramaz '83
It is odd to hear Chabad defend mindless yerusha on one hand and defend the Rebbe's rabanus on the other. When asked why this yerusha is not followed, they respond that the people demanded the Rebbe. Yet, I find no record of any type of election or even method of making known what the people wanted.
This is not an attack on the Chabad Rebbe. It is simply a statement that intuitively, we all agree that yerusha for its own sake is not valid.
Schneur,
This is what I actually said:
"Not to mention those cases where a Rov simply left a צוואה to appoint his son. (More recently, Bnei Brak circa 1985 comes to mind as well)."
This is what you made of it:
"Berl. You give Bnai Brak and the struggle over Reb Moshe Leib Landau succeeding to his father's position as shdot rav of BB as an example. In that case Lubavitch came out in favor of hereditary succession as Reb Moshe Leib was a chasid of chabad..."
Can you not see that I was talking only about the transference of Rabbinic position via a צוואה? And yet you turned my words into a general attempt to show support for heredity-based transfer of authority! What's the point of all this? And what's it got to do with other situations? Rabbi Yaakov Landa left a צוואה to the city requesting that his son be appointed. Did Chief Rabbi Kaplan of Tzefas leave a צוואה designating his son-in-law as a successor? If he did & the צוואה was ignored, your bashing of the inconsistency there is well taken and I will be the first to admit it here. But if he did not – then the parallel you drew it is just vacuous and doubly irrelevant.
P.S. I will state for the last time: I do not now nor did I before offer any support for rampant nepotism and total lack of democratic institutions. And I strongly resent any insinuation to the contrary! All I ever said was that we had to be cautious in rejecting any sort of nepotism, since על פי תורה it was not a black & white issue.
Y.D. Groner of Melbourne runs his communiyt like a totalitarian society. Nepotism, patronage,money interests, power consolidation are of primary concern and ruchnias principles, education quality are all secondary in impoortance. The result is that the community is floundering without Rabbinic leadership leaving people to do whatever tey wish, as long as they do notn threaten the staus quo of Groner's hegemony. The standards for tznius, Chassidish practice, hashkafas have fallen tremendously and now for all practical purposes Chabad of Melbourne resembles American Modern Orthodoxy in its level of observance. Besides all that, the number of children that go off the Torah path each year is steadily climbing to the point where it may even consitute a majority in some classes in the schools. Chabad of Melbourne is regressing, it will eventually implode, but by that time the incalculable damage done to families and Yiddishkeit may be irreversible.
Perhaps Australia deserves it's own post.
I remember reading on Shmais last year that Groner's recent testimonial dinner grossed $1,000,000 for the mosdos. I guess Lubavitch really is imploding.
I know I am the one that started talking about Melbourne here but, while things are not ideal, they are certainly not as bad as Yitzy and others have written.
Most of what Yitzy said about Groner is true. Fortunately there are still a few chassidishe yungerleit who are courageous and are fighting for better chinuch and mosdos. The smart ones have ignored Groner's negativity and opened their own Chabad Houses.
Also, I must say that although there are many yungerleit who appear to be have more in common with the MO community there are still quite a number of familys who live up to chassidish principles.
The situation in Melbourne is certainly not good but it is far from terminal.
Having lived in the NorthEast for a while, I am very familiar with the
mosdos of Rabbi Ciment, Rabbi Adelman, Rabbi Hecht and Rabbi Fogelman.
Rabbi Adelman does not truly deserve to lumped with the others. He
has built a fine reputation for himself, he is a mentch and he
believes in his work. He has a small support base, but he is
able to sustain based on good reputation, and everyone I meet from there says they would support
him. Though his school is run by his relatives, it would seem to be a more benign dictatorship where the community input is welcome.
In all fairness, I do not know Rabbi Fogelman as well as the
others, only by reputation, so I would withhold comment.
I am unfortunately familiar with the man that the Rebbe personally put
in charge of New Haven, Hecht. In a eulogy of his father, "Rabbi"
"Dr." (of what I do not know) Hecht, the Rebbe simply ensured that the
nepotism (with every negative connotation of that word) would
continue, with the words, u'bno bimkomo. The vast majority of families and young people that
move there are David Deitch's (OBM) family or employees or Hecht's. IMO, any improvements have been completely driven by threats of competition, and initiatives by the Deitch families, not by the shliach. The school is so insular, in fact, that the shliach moved away from the community and formed a new community in a nearby town.
As for Rabbi Ciment, I am sure I could add nothing to your own knowledge of
that situation. Too much RE appreciation, money etc., too few auditors, zero tolerance for competition or meddling eyes.
You have left out the other mosad of the Rayatz in the area, that of Yisroel Stock OBM in Trumbull, CT. They have built a powerful summer camp on blood, sweat and tears, but they have based it in Stamford. They enlist outside involvement. That particular endeavor is thriving. Coincidentally, they run it in a very open, inclusive manner. Hmmmm.
In short, Springfield is not "failed", but more "spent". My understanding is that they really want and care for chinuch. The others (except Trumbull) were run under by simple lack of interest in chinuch and lack of ability. That the Rebbe chose to close his eyes to it and sustain the nepotism and lack of accountability, well, perhaps the "Kotsker" post was your most insightful.
The sons of Stock took over Trumbull from their father, and since they dont get along with yisroel deren, the stock's are not on the krinsky "official" list.
Tzemach:You are right that Australia deserves it's own post.The reason I bring it up,though in real terms it's a blip on the jewish screen(Melbourne has maybe 50 thousand jews, with a small percentage of shomer shabbes, maybe 15%.Sydney has 35 000, with a smaller percentage of shomrei shabbes, and perhaps another 15 k in other cities like Perth etc)However, Australia can teach us what happens when Lubavitch muscle in on new turf.Almost all the 'rabbis' in orthodox shuls are Lubavitch,where theses 'rabbis' try their outmost to shove the Lubavitch way down their congregants throats.Kashrus is run by Gutniks brother.They have surprisingly gotten quite a few 'converts' from,frum non Lubavitcher families, by opening up schools and brainwashing kids.Besides a small insular chasidic/hungarian community, there were few choices for frum jews.I think things have changed a bit for the better with a new Kolel community in Melbourne, but I'm not aware of the details.
I see similar things happening in most communities outside of traditional orthodox strongholds like New York City,Monsey and Lakewood etc.Many places that 'invited' Lubavitch to come are now very sorry they did.Their quench for total control of every aspect of the communities lives is uncontrollable.
Friends have you noticed that the place where Chabad has the least influence is New York, though it's their home base.The reason is that Chabad can only be succesful if there is a void to take advantage of.
Malach:
I don't know where you get your information from but it certainly doesn't resemble the truth.
Since when do Chabad shluchim or rabbis " try their outmost to shove the Lubavitch way down their congregants throats"?!! What a load of manure! If anything they go out of their way to make sure that the keep halacha first and maybe when they are frum and showing an interest in Chabad they encourage them in that way. I can cite many specific cases where this is true.
I am not going to waste my time answering every point in your post. Almost everything you said is false - including the numbers of Jews here. You obviously have a problem with Lubavitch and it would seem that nothing I say will change your views. I may have issues with certain head shluchim in Australia but the fact remains if it wasn't for Chabad none of the charedi communities here would be as successful as they are today.
Nafoz:Numbers can be verified.What is false in the number of jews I mention?How many jews live in Australia in your opinion?(Since you claim my numbers are off, I've already got a good idea that my commentary is quite correct, since my numbers are quite accurate)
The chareidi community,Adass and Lakewood have been succesful, despite Chabads best efforts to the contrary, not because of Chabad.Where did the Barbers,Gesteteners,New,etc come from?
LB
The Stock scion, one son, one daughter and son-in-law still run the mosad. (Oldest is not involved much.) Deren is angry because, horror of horrors, they built a successful daycamp in HIS base town. G-d forbid, that anyone should COOPERATE in efforts with anyone else to work toward a (presumably) common goal. At the time, there was no competitive camp in Stamford, just a technical territory violation. As I said, they run things in a very open and inclusive manner, and people enjoy being involved. Some are only interested that no other dog transgress their marked hydrants.
It is not only nepotism that causes bad leadership as SZ put it, but the desire to protect, exclude and privatize that overwhelms the original goal, isolates protential clientele, and brings a cold businesslike detachment to many endeavors.
Malach, you really have no idea.
Barber and Gestneter are Sydney familes and always davened in Yeshivah (albeit before Feldman). New is in Melbourne and actually started out in Carlton.
All the frum familes sent their kids to Yeshivah or Beth Rivkah until the 1970s when their schools started growing.
My last comment on this - there are a lot of legitimate things to critisise about the way individuals behave but this does not necessarily negate good things they have done in the past (or still do). Despite what you and other anti-Chabad people would like to imply, Chabad, like almost all the groups in the frum world, is not intrinsically bad. If you insist on maintaining that attitude I am very sorry for you.
It is not only nepotism that causes bad leadership as SZ put it, but the desire to protect, exclude and privatize that overwhelms the original goal, isolates protential clientele, and brings a cold businesslike detachment to many endeavors.
rebeljew, here you are right on the money.
Berl I apologize to you, I too am allowed to be a demagogue once in a while.
Yet the kashe (not to you ) why Bnai Brak one way and Zefas another. if yerusha is mandated by halacha and Shulchan aruch. Why do you need a zavooh saying so . after all its the din , no further notice is needed ?
Frankly I never included KJ or RAMAZ in my list of nepotistic institutions. The Loksteins have always shared power, with others. a strong board has always existed etc. And haskel Lookstein has always sought community imput. I congratulate him for a job well done.
Schneur, check this out
http://chabad.info/bm/index.php?...=goto_id&
id=132
Turns out Rav Landa z'l is you landsman.
Berl.
Thank you. i saw this several weeks ago. And I later contacted him. Berger also wrote an article on Kurnitz the town in BM .Footnote no. 1 is about my uncle Reb Zalman Kurnitzer (Alperowitz) of Kurenitz, Nevel and Leningrad.
My late father as a post bar mitzva bachur studied with Hillke Landa , - gemora mit rashi- as a private student for 3-4 years .
Hillke was the younger brother of R. Yankev. He did not become the rav because he was an alter bachur and the eylem would not hear of it. An illuy atzum !
So Anash brought rav Uszpol, a opuster hasid, (Reb Berel's father) and the eylem brought rav Feldman . Later everyone was killed .
My father said Hillke looked like YIBlechaim tovim aruchim Rav Moshe leib.
My father had dozens of stories about Hillke, R. Yankev and the original R. Moshe leib . I recorded many of them .
But who knows if they will ever be printed.
It was reb Yankev who sent my uncle to Tomche Tmimmim , which my father remembered as a little boy and never saw his brother again.
So now they are all in alma deKeshot.Chaside kurnitz .
Since my father was born in Chodesh Nisan and as such named after the Zemach Zedek, I will note the following in his memory.(Actually the memory of all Kurenitzer and the zemach Zedek)
Kurnitz had a large chabad community with chassidishe shochetim a rav even a more horahe Reb Ureh ,Hayad.
2 Kurnitzer became roshe yeshiva in TTL my uncle Reb Zalman and Rabbi Berel Gorfinkel.
The original Malach rabbi Levine spent lots of time in K, even though he was a native of Ilya.
Reb Moshe layzer Kramer considered Kurnitz his home town .
The Zemach Zedek visited Kurenitz .
The landau family was meshadech with the zemach Zedek.
My father was zoche to have 2 yechidusen with the Rayaatz in the 1930's and described them in a very special manner which I again recorded.
Not bad for a small town of under 1,000 Yideen. hashem Yinkom damam bimhero
"BUT in Tsefas when Chief rabbi Kaplan died about 10 years ago, (he was at least the 3rd in his family to hold the rabbinate in Zefas)Chabad would not even hear of his son or son in law a chasuve ben Torah suceeding him on the basis of hereditary sucession."
FACT CHECK: Rabbi Kaplan was never the formal Chief rabbi of Tzfas, he in fact groomed Bistritzky for this poisition. Kaplan was the head of the Moisdos, Bistritzky the Lubavitcher Rav. Today, Kaplan's son, Chaykel, runs the Moisdos; Bistritzky's son is the Lubavitcher Rav, and heavily involved with the Hashgochois for the city.
Malach:
For all that you claim, please bear in mind that when R. YD Groner moved to Australia, there were ZERO students recieving a Jewish day school education -- b/c there were no such schools. Today, the percentage of Jewish students in Australia recieving a day school education is in the order of %60-70!
This is critical in any understanding of the Australian Jewish community.
Also, many of the Shuls that today have Lubavitcher Rabonim didn't even exist before YD Groner arrived.
Closeted:Fact check! Nobody is speaking about R'Kaplan who was a leader in Zfas Chabad and was tragically killed in a car accident in Russia a number of years ago.We are speaking about Rav Kaplan who was Litvish, Chief rabbi of tzfas for many years.I believe his father in law was rov before him.
There were 2 different Kaplans in Zwfas. Rav Kaplan was the chief rabbi a Lithuanian Yeshiva student who married his predecessors daughter and yarshened rabbanut and a younger man rabbi Kaplan who died in a car accident in Russia, although a talmid chochom he was not functioning as a rav in Safed. I think he wasa canadian from birth.
Was Kaplan;s death an accident ?
I hope it was an accident.I have not heard that malice was involved.Kaplan the Lubavitcher was from Crown Heights, his father is from Kiev I believe, his backround was Litvish but he attended a underground chabad yeshiva in Russia.Another son is a shliach in Baltimore.R'Kaplan senior apparently had a fall out with Chabad over the 'meshichisten'.Since he is a talmid chochom and an oldtimer ho could not bear to see, what some crazies had turned Lubavitch into.
I was passing by and noticed comments regarding a topic that is discussed worldwide and impacts Yidden everywhere. Re: Australia, Chabad have not enhanced Yiddishkeit but caused Chilul Hashem COUNTLESS times and this is symptomatic of Chabad in any and every country. Feldman and Groner are identical and the same slow death B"H of Sydney Chabad will occur exactly the same way in Melbourne. Re: Alternatives! There are plenty of mainstream Frum people in Australia but Chabad constantly muscle their way into other people's Frun lives and try to CONVERT them. All they are showing is the wrong way to live a Frum way of life...I comend those on this forum and everywhere in the world for now coming to understand what Chabad is and the brand of religion it is. Adas in Melbourne is a burgeoning Kehilla along with Kollel Beis HaTalmud. In fact, a new Chareidi Shul has opened two years ago and is thriving despite the avderse effects of Chabad in Melbourne: Heichal HaTorah.
I do not know autralia that well despite having many relatives there, however my understanding from having spoken to several (non lubavitcher) australians here in town (some of which are grandlchildren of reb moshe zalman feiglin who came from a chabad family and formed a connection with the rebbe rayatz and the rebbe - he brought over most original lubavitchers in australia) is that 50-6- there wasn't much yiddishkeit in australia, lubavitch were the first ones to build it and therefor happened to be in many more community positions than would be elsewhere. there is a flourishing hungarian community there for many years as well but it was formed later, and in general australia seems to have a very laid back attitude to things including yiddishkeit which manifests itself in the lubavitch and addas community (i went out to ask the people here from australia before posting this to confirm what i thought earlier, but I was never there so I cannot verify 100% the accuracy of this).
that is not to say that unfortunatly now horav Y D groner (one of the greatest geonim in australia today and a wonderful example of how much a shliach can accomplish in learning) isn't destroying much that he built by his refusal to relinquish any control.
my understanding is that the community is strong enough to survive it.
at least i hope so
i was just looking for something on the web and came across this embarrassing site,
i use the word embarrassing, not for the chabad community, yet for all of you who actually sit and post on here, back and forth.
a few questions for all of you to think about and answer honestly to yourselves.
1) what are you gaining from all these loshon hora filled conversations? you have really used modern technology in an amazing way! not to speak a regular style loshon hora, but to take it all to a much bigger, more advanced (and i assume you beleive better) scale - very effective and efficient, quite impressive, i must say. you get to spread the loshon hora to thousands of people at a time, rather than use the regular word of mouth. well done.
2) do you really think you are solving ANY problems by having these discussions? or do you think you may be worsening or intensifying? (although i must comment that it does seem that this would be the ultimate desire of some of those who write here - if so, i dont think this is the best way to go about it ;)
3) yidden are yidden, the labels are Hashems way of trying to confuse us - well all I can say is that it seems like many of you have fallen for it, and please dont even try justify this saying that this is l'shem shomayim, so ppl should realise, etc etc....
3) how do you exempt yourselves from 'al tadin es chavercha..and 'hevay dan es kol hodom l'kaf zchus?'?!?!
4) after 120yrs, how are you going to justify / explain all these wonderful posts here, for all time? (i dont think Hashem will go for the l'shem shomayim one...) Shedding a light unto the nations, hey?
5) do you not have anything better to do with your time, effort, intelligence which u so ferverntly invest in this blog? is this what you think Hashem gave it to you for? if not - go learn something, join Hatzolah, volunteer at a Shule, (but not a Chabad House C'V ;) right?
6) how are some of you not embarrassed to identify yourselves, and openly post this blatant loshon hora, about specific people! I am yet to meet a perfect person - but it seems that some of you bash others with such conviction and assurance that you must be confident that you ARE perfect, have no faults at all, and are therefore in a position to criticize others I just can't understand how you are so comfortable and feel so free to do this. A blog like this screams out in big red letters, just how low people can sink :(
The character traits that you are displaying do not place you in any more a favorable light than those you insist on condemning.
In short what you have proved quite clearly is bottom of line of that which you write about - human nature is fallible.
if you have a problem with people who are 'chabad', rest assured, your problem is with PEOPLE and human nature. You have discussed several of the unfavoroble character traits in people, that Hashem constantly tests us with, and I dont think this site is helping anyone overcome them - quite the contrary :(
If you have a problem with Chabad and would like to resolve it, learn Chabad Chassidus in depth and then reassess. Decide for yourself.
If you do not wish to resolve your problem, then i guess it's your choice and something you'll just have to live with.
May all of you, and the entire K'lal Yisroel (myself included) overcome our temptation of the tongue (or fingers ;) may we see only the good in each other, and not let our egos (which manifests itself differently in e/one - depending on what your life situation allows for)delude us, may we overcome all the nisyonos and obstacles, and help to BUILD goodness in this world, rather than C"V the opposite.
MAY THIS BE THE END OF ALL SUCH BLOGS!! AMEN ;)
The only way to have a proper beth haknesseth in any community if for all members to paticipate in service and a functioning rabbi who is able to teach torah and halacha and the rabbi to be a proper public relation individuals..Unfortunately,most ,if not all except for one yeshiva ,produce absolutely no individual capable of taking a pulpit position in any orthodox beth haknesset..To have long davening and say yotzrose and pi-iutim on yomini mo-ra-im or yom tov or throut many shabbosos throut the year is very nice but does absoltely nothing for the member..Yes they are thousands of shtiebles through out the u.s. and canada,but there is absoltely no teaching of torah there at all...On the contrary.those in charge of these shtiebel are playing children service
which take place in many modern orthodox synagogue..Many of the choshever yidden are kollel oriented and are unable to function at any postion at all..All they do is receive a paycheque for going to shul and sitting in front of these minyanim..all synagogues need a proper
"RABBI"Not a Rebbe who wear a KAppata,and cannot teach torah...Yes the Torah is not for individuals who write comment and all of a sudden the hebrew publisher ,publishes a new chumash with new commentaries..Most of these commentaies which appear in any of these books should never have been printed..I am surprised that none of our leaders have givern any "P'Sak" on these commentaries...This is totaly against Halacha...Its about time all geonim start to teach torah and stop reaading these books...No wonder when one goes to these minyanim,no one knows anything except to shuckle and stay in the shemonei esrai for ten or fifteen minutes...enough of wating your time in the public..Do it at home..Not in public place...Many shuls in the U.s.Have an individual with a kappata and big black hat buit when ot come to teaching torah,it is absoltely zilch..What is the bragging about one yeshiva ,when none of the student in that yeshiva,in that beth hamedrash that kollel ,never can function at any job...I see it taking place in New york and canada Lakewood or any Kollel..Non "absolutely none of the bachurim who sit in the kollel
will ever apply for a position as a morah D'Asrah of any Beth Haknesset...Its about time to change these kollels attitude...When are you going to change if not "today"
I wish to clarify some points that were posted about Harav Hachosid, Harav HaTomim Reb Yisroel Hacohein Stock OLOV HASHOLOM:
Since I am his youngest son, and is/was privy to everything that was/is going on with YIMACH SHEMOH-DRECKE'N; I wish to clarify that my father O"H was sent by the Rebbe Rayatz to Connecticut to further yiddishkeit and to establish MOSDOS-(LOSHON RABBIM) in this area.
He successfully started and maintained a Yeshiva, as well as a Day Camp, as well as many other numerous mosdos and peuolos.
ALL THROUGHOUT his entire life, he received BROCHOS, ENCOURAGEMENT, MONEY and DIRECT CLEAR ANSWERS from the Rebbe regarding ALL the mosdos.
In 5735-1975, when my brother-in-law & sister broadened the scope of operations to INCLUDE a day camp in Stamford, the Rebbe acknowledged this in the form of countless brochos & his own personal hishtatfus in the hoitzoas of the camp. (He even issued a special Ho'Raoh in 1985, which was NOT given to any other day camp, ANYPLACE!)
MY FATHER is/was a Shliach before YIMACH SHEMOH (DRECK"N) was even born!
When my father responded to the news that YIMACH SHEMOH was planning to move to Stamford, he attempted to call him to a din torah, but, unfortunately, after trying THREE separate bais din's, he was unable to confront this YIMACH SHEMOH-HITLER-OSAMA BIN LADIN-STALIN-SAADAM HUSEIN-HOMON HOROSHA to his face - with an answer that..."LUBAVITCH GEIT NIT TZU AH DIN TORAH!?"
Two weeks after my father O"H was nifter, we had our annual chanukah party & camp reunion, (which, derech agav, HE organized 3 months before,) in the Sheraton Hotel in Stamford. My brother-in-law called Yitzchock Hecht who was the leader of the Boy's Choir of the lubavitcher yeshiva on ocean pkwy. to come and perform for the event. (Because he thought it would be nice for the people to see & hear a choir singing, etc.)
So what did YIMACH SHEMOH do when he heard that the choir was coming to our event in Stamford? He called Hecht the DAY OF THE EVENT, and threatened him that if he sets foot in Stamford, he & his choir WILL NEVER PERFORM at any other lubavitcher function, period! But this was still NOT ENOUGH for him, (V'CHOL ZEH EINENA SHOVEH LO,) so HOMON HOROSHA went down to OUR event himself, because he wanted to make sure that we didn't get the choir to come!?
ER HOT GEKUMEN TZU REITZEN ZACH IN PONIM AREIN!!With who? With the ALMONA & YISOMIM of the person who HE ALONE caused tons of agmas nefesh - to the point of MISSA MAMMOSH!
This SHTICK DRECK (K'SHMOI KEIN HU!) has a long history of re'tzicha and hozoh; When my father O"H went to a simcha for one of Dovid Eidelman's kids' bris, (in 1986-5746), this mamzer YIMACH SHEMOH was there also, and when eidelman asked my father to say a few words, this HOMON HOROSHA had the audacity and the AZAS PONIM to heckle him, WHILE HE WAS TALKING!!?! A person, an elterer chossid, with a white/gray beard is talking, and he is OPENLY HECKLING him in front of 400-500 people!?!?!
Just as there no words to describe the RISHUS of HITLER-STALIN-SAADAM HUSEIN-OSAMA BIN LADIN-HOMON HOROSHA, V'chulhu, v'chulhu - so too is this SHTICK DRECK YIMACH SHEMOH V'ZICHROH! May it be Hashem's will to pour out his wrath upon DRECK'N and ALL those who support him - and may they get whats coming to them b'meharah b'yomeinu MAMMOSH!
Here are some questions you should be asking; WHY did he not get all this support and money when he was IN DRERED AREIN in Springfield Mass!?!?
Why did he NOT get any support from KRINSKY/KOTLARSKY/SHEMTOV when he was in Springfield??? Why did they ONLY start pumping millions into him in Stamford? Is he NOT the same animal that lived in Springfield?!?!
i need help reading this....
In case anyone is interested, the answers he (DRECK'N-YIMACH SHEMOH) received when he reluctantly asked about moving to Stamford - was "IM EIN BOZEH IYAN D'HASAGAS GEVUL", and the he should ask the shluchim of the ARUMIKEH SHTET in Connecticut, if they have any objections or concerns.
Of course, he asked HECHT in Norwalk, and then he asked HECHT in New Haven!? (Since when is NEW HAVEN close to Stamford!?) But...he NEVER EVER ASKED my father O"H!? WHY?? WHY was he afraid of asking the ONE person who was directly affected by his abhorrent actions?
It's OK, if SKAKEL could be getting what he deserves even 25 years after the fact, then I am confident that he surely get his - only much, much sooner!
Yosy,
Aren’t you the same Stock family that moved your camp upstate NY for a while? And wasn’t that the same crappy camp that bounced all the checks on their dedicated and hard-working counselors at the end of the summer? (In the interest of full disclosure - some of those counselors did collect their meager earnings after many months of making 'collection calls'). Nice stuff… I somehow doubt the person you call “DRECK'N” would do that. I also find it unbelievable that you can go online and curse a Jew (whatever his faults) who has lost two children r”l! Truly you are as repulsive as you are inarticulate.
Tzemach, there is nothing to read there. Your blog just had a Tzig moment.
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