LOL! LOL! LOL!
on a serious note, though:
Do not forget that in addition to having more advanced secular education, most MO's practice severe birth control (at least as compared to average "charedi" couples) and thus not only have less children to support, but are also more likely to have 2-income households. I know quite a few "charedi" heads of household that hold what would be normally considered well paying jobs and still barely "making ends meet". A guy earning a respectable 100K(before taxes) simply can't support 8 kids + wife + house in Brooklyn with ~40K going toward yeshivah tuitions. And what is there to say for a guy making 75K (also a decent pay)???? Good professional education is simply not enough to support the cost of the current "charedi" lifestyle. And I honestly do not see how this can continue without some very serious communal intervention - and soon! If you want to talk about kids being disillusioned, growing up in poverty is a major contributing factor for sure. I have heard quite a few first-hand accounts of kids saying to their impoverished parents: "I do not want to live like you when I grow up..."
berl, crown heigths | 04.12.05 - 11:20 pm | #

Does anyone know what became of the initiative (in Chicago I believe) that everyone leave 10% of their estate to a scholarship fund for the day school of their choice
Yossi | 04.13.05 - 1:08 am | #

does anyone really thgink that the next generation of charedi kids will have 7/8/9/10 kids!!!!! it is not sustainable living in a modern world with the costs of education etc etc etc
Abraham | 04.13.05 - 4:34 am | #

Abraham, what a great idea! Let's simply wait until the prevailing conditions result in less & less Jewish kids being born! If you factor intermarriage & assimilation, we should have little to worry about in the future you envision. Simply brilliant!
And, and, and...!!! With few Jews around, there is also going to be less anti-Semitism. And – the best news - those power-grabbing Chabad sheluchim will finally be out business too. All problems solved in one clean swoop!
berl, crown heigths | 04.13.05 - 11:15 am | #

May be we should move to Siberia, I heard there are few oppenings in the scholls there and the postion of Vice Chief Rabbi is for grabs... And I am sure Karl Marx would approve that destination.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.13.05 - 11:35 am | #

Atlas:
I think Stalin [either "feter Joe" or "Reb Yosel"] would actually work better for this particular interview - what with your "soviets" & "Siberia" references 'nall. There is no shortage of pictures of him either [Komar & Melamid did a few too]. Plus Stalin has real world hands-on experience with Jewish education! And he also hated nepotism - he even let Nazis kill his oldest son Reb Yankel! :)
berl, crown heigths | 04.13.05 - 12:15 pm | #

don't be silly
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.13.05 - 6:27 pm | #

Berl raises an interesting issue.
There are many factors making an Orhtodox lifestyle expensive.
He is correct in talking about the practice of birth control in the MO world.
But Berl for a moment lets talk of the Charedi world.
Since I am a "Man without a country " ( I am neither charedi or MO )I ask the following :
How expensive is tuition in Charedi schools ?
Do they give people a break for having many kids ken yirbu in the school system?
"Leaving education aside" I think one of the reasons that the Orthodox lifestyle is really expensive is the tremendous materialism that has taken over almost all of the charedi world (The MO world has long been a slave to that calf..)
I can only imagine what making Pesach for an average Charedi or Chassidic family costs. Lets itemize.
A family of 7 .(mother, dad , 2 sons 3 daughters)
Food including meat, fish , cakes and Shmura Matzo and wine $3-4,000.
Clothes for the males (including hats and suits) $1,200
Clothes for the girls (3 daughters and a wife $3-4,000.
Household products pots electronic appliances etc 1,500 .Chal hamoed trips entertainment etc. is about $1,500
Other items like seforim Haggadoth, Jewlery, Silver etc can run into another 3,000-4,000 In a conservative sum total of about $13,000 for 8-10 days wow!!!
My Goyishe neighbors would probably think I am writing a fictional story. But friends, No its real.
If I tell a charedi that he does not need a new hat he says its kavod hayontev, if I tell him that his wife does not need 2 new suits , a new shaitel a new skirt etc, its a Shalom bayis and etc etc. A new becher is ze keli veanvayhu !
Materialism has dominated the lives of this community. Of course there are exceptions and oremeleit evyeinim , but as a rule my description is accurate.If not on the downside in terms of money spent for yamim tovim.
We tend to go after tuition first , but it is not the only place the Charedi world spends money.
Schneur | 04.13.05 - 9:12 pm | #

Schneur, everything you wrote about is, alas, correct. I would even venture to say that the "charedi" community attitudes about spending & lifestyle are more self-destructive than simple "materialism". I have been thinking about this for a long time and will try בל"נ to write more on this later.
Permit me for now to finish my original point. A well-paid professional "charedi" head of household, even if his head is "screwed on right" about money & spending (i.e. he does not feel that a new hat for יו"ט is "a must" of יהרג ואל יעבור proportions) simply can’t afford to pay even for a very modest lifestyle. For a guy like that (~100K before taxes with 8 kids) tuitions will not be a cent under 40K, and that is after all the "breaks" (even in Lubavitch!). Now you tell me, what is left (after taxes & tuitions) to pay for housing, clothing, food, etc for a family of 10? If his wife does not work – he is flat out of luck. And how much can a mother of 8 earn?
berl, crown heights | 04.14.05 - 8:34 am | #

Berl's figures seem correct.
I lived in Boro Pk for 5 years and always wondered how did the local Olam live very nicely.
Women were extremely well dressed, bakeries were packed on Fridays with people buying literally tons of cakes and cookies. Take out stores were flourishing.Fast food places were always packed. People bought $10 worth of newspapers on Fridays. at a pop. Cars tended to be late model and fully equiped and even the poor left Boro Pk for the whole summer in the Catskills. Everyone had AC (except for me and other singles then living there). Trips to Israel were standard. All children went to sleep away camps. The few weddings I was invited to, were beyond normative in expense. Since then who knows how many Chasidic clothing stores for men have opened up. with an average of 2 per years openng their doors. Luxury stores of all types function on the avenues selling silver, cosmetics, lamp shades, fancy chocolates, and the like.
So my friends and I were always wondering how do they maintain this fairly nice lifestyle.
Yes I can understand the wealthy buisnessmen , but the biggest business in BP is Chinuch and many people are either in Chinuch, kashruth, rabbinical jobs , kollel or in jobs like truck drivers or at best in Civil service making $50,000 a year on the books .Others in computers or selling cameras (not the owners) also do not break 6 figures.
Some have small stores, others are involved in various non religious aspects of the kosher food trade, So how does the olam there maintain this lifestyle with at least 6-7 Silver stores etc etc. Not to speak of numerous homes that cost at least 1 million dollars.
Schneur | 04.14.05 - 10:05 am | #

There only 3 ways to maintain this lifestyle:
1. Be a successful businessman.
2. Have a cash job and be on all the "programs"
3. Best of all - combine "1" & "2" ! :)
Anyone still wonder why yungelite after kolel do not break down the doors of universities in rush to become physical therapists, lawyers or financial analysts?
berl, crown heights | 04.14.05 - 10:21 am | #

i wish i had your troubles
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 04.14.05 - 10:42 am | #

Berl. If the kolel Yungeleit are materialists (I am sure many are not) and if they spent a Shabbes in Teaneck where almost everyone is a lawyer, MD DDS banker or financier , they would run to graduate school too. Not for physical therapy (in the MO world thats a female profession) but to get a MBA , JD or MD . These people live very well to say the least without programs and fraud. The same holds true in Riverdale, west hempstead, Upper west Side, the 5 towns etc.
Schneur | 04.14.05 - 11:11 am | #

Schneur, you guys finally wore me out. The MOs you describe have smaller families, many with 2 professional incomes. And in the rarefied wealthy communities you mentioned they do live rather well without resorting to crude fraud.
My simple point was that today an average MBA (earning low 6 figures) or a JD (often earning even less) can't support a large charedi family on his income alone. You disagree? Fine... have it your way.
חג כשר ושמח!
berl, crown heigths | 04.14.05 - 11:51 am | #

Did I say I disagree with you.? We are talking amongst ourselves. But many people in Teaneck are very frum and have 4-5 children too.
Some of the wives stay at home too , as a friend told me Teaneck is the only place you can find medical specialists in the middle of the day as there are numerous fully trained female doctors who are raising children or work part time.
You underestimate the amount of money MBA's working on the Street make. In addition New York City lawyers make a lot more money than you state a hell of a lot more !!! Even CPA's make more money than low 6 figures.
Doctors are in a different category. Securities analysts and planners etc of which there are many in Begen County also make a lot of money on the Street.
In addition by the time most of these people are in their early forties they are heavily invested in Real property, securities and in various commercial ventures.
Schneur | 04.14.05 - 12:07 pm | #

Just for the sake of arguement which I like to do. By now there are plenty of Chassidic professionals (mostly baale teshuvah) both in Chabad and in other places. I bet that most amke enough money without resorting to questionable business tactics.
In Boston there are a number of such people affiliated with that town's rebbe and I doubt they are lacking in funds.
So there are 2 sides to the issue , even though I agree with your basic statements and points.
Schneur | 04.14.05 - 12:10 pm | #

By the way, tuition in the day schools and high schools in the MO community runs an average of $18,000 per kid. Very few breaks are available. Now I am certain tuition in Ohalei Torah, or Bobov or Chaim Berlin costs more than $11,000 per year.
In addition synagogue membership which includes building funds is at least $2,000 per year. Summer camps range to 15,000 per full summer.
Recently my brother and many other Teaneck orthodox jews were assesed about $10,000 a piece to help a young father who had cancer and needed help in many forms. These people came across with the money because they had it and it is part odf "doing business' as a Orthodox jew in Bergen County.
So even if you have only 3 or 4 children you still end up spending huge amounts of money for schools , camps not to speak of college (which charedim do not have). Yeshiva College with room and board must be about $30,000 per year and most people have only small scholarships.
Schneur | 04.14.05 - 12:38 pm | #

It is all very depressing. I have so many friends that are not making ends meet!
berl, crown heigths | 04.14.05 - 12:44 pm | #

In CH a professional parent can "get away with" with 4-5K per child in Oholei Torah & Beth Rivka. But still, 8 x 5K = 40K (that is where I got the original number). A good mesifta can't be had under 12K even in Lubavitch! Seminary out of the country (A MUST!) - "forgetaboutit".
berl, crown heigths | 04.14.05 - 12:51 pm | #

You can include me in that category - friends and poor. But there is more to living than money.Of course one needs food, a residence medical attention etc. Gey shrei gevald !
Schneur | 04.14.05 - 12:52 pm | #

And after all that - if you do not yourself learn with the kids at home, they will not know how to translate a posuk chumash!
berl, crown heigths | 04.14.05 - 12:55 pm | #

Berel

I have only been watching from the sidelines in this conversation, but consider this comment as support for each post of yours in this thread.

Particularly, it is painful to see and have children growing up in poverty and not wanting that life for themselves. It is just as painful to see parents secretly yearning that his children do not follow their lead and hoping that they make a good life for themselves, sans poverty.

I can't believe anyone would argue with such obvious points as you've made here.
rebeljew | Homepage | 04.14.05 - 4:55 pm | #

Well one can send kids to Israel and get a FULL government scholarship for after high-school education. I know people who pay around $3,000 in tuition and even less in US, so people get brakes. The kids don't need to live in poverty they can work hard and succsed in this country. Yes, $100,000 is inadequate for a family. Nobody mentioned supporting kids in kollel for years. How come? This one IS a major expence. You need about $1,000 a month. I think we need a Jewish State to take care of our needs as a nation. Parochialism is not working out too well.

Geulatenu beyadeyny!
xinu | 04.15.05 - 12:37 am | #

xinu

3000 x 10 = 30,000 every year.
rebeljew | Homepage | 04.16.05 - 9:39 pm | #