mentalblog.com comments:
Please notic that in the USA, most non-Chassidic charedim work . Many even go to college and there are charedim FFB who are even high profesionals.
Even amongst American chasidim there are many who work for a living. I do not know the figure , but I would guess that many work outside of klei kodesh jobs and some even undertook higher vocational educationinplaces like Touro College. I doubt there are more than 2,000 men over 30 in Kollel in America.
In israel much of what I said above does not apply. Mai Bainayhu ?
Only army service.
Our charedim do not wish to put their lives on the line to defend the place in which they live in.
secular Jews do and the Mafdal people do too (I just saw a claim that in 20 years 1/3 of the Israeli general staff will be dati.
But the charedim are simply scared of giving up their lives so they sit in kolleim until their army service age is up.
What would happen if the US were in aserious war and needed the growing population of charedim to serve in the defense of America. Would they all claim to be rabbis or divinity students. Exactly what are the true halachic definitions of an orthodox jews obligation to defend his country ?
The chereidi establishment types feel towards education and democracy the same as al Zarqawi articulated a few months ago.
The younger generation is beginning to understand the danger and is taking steps to combat it, as Shneur describes. And you know how I feel about rebellion.
I think many young Charedim wish to serve in the army , defend the state and eter the job market.
They want to marry and support their families.
But their leaders wish to have them under their thumb. They wish to keep these young men infantilized .
Can you imagine a young chasid feeling good about his body and mind , remaining ablind follower of a rebbe ?
I suspect rebeljew is correct and we will shortly witness a massive rebellion against the rebbes and their mnisters.
Some people on this blog who are uber culturally exposed still yearn for the true Rebbe.
The situation is indeed critical; however, it does seem to be a bit better in non-Lubavicher communities.
Lubavitcher Yeshivos, schools, camps, funds, etc. are the least helpful among frum communities.
I'm not saying that it's no problem elsewhere, but I have met (and dealt with) people that are much more understaing and helpful when it comes to the financial burdens of a frum family in the more "heimishe" circles, such as Boro Park...
How true Tzemach.
And let's not forget the most culturally exposed of all in Chabad were the last two Rebbes.
Getting back to my comment about the need for change in the chareidi / chassidishe camp ...
Kuwaiti women have just been given the right to vote and run for election in that country. The assumption is that a true democracy must allow ALL its citizens to have equal political rights.
Believe me when I say that I'm not a feminist, but my first reaction to the news was that it sure took a long time for this repressed country to do the right thing. So I was feeling pretty smug until I got to thinking about chareidi / chassidishe society and what our position is towards women participating equally with men in the all important organizational decision-making process. L'havdil elef havdolos, how radically different is our attitude in this area from the repressed Kuwaiti one?
Can real democratization occur in the chareidi / chassidishe camp without the sort of political upheaval occuring in other closed societies? Bush is forcing the Kuwaitis to change; on their own it never would happen. What will force us to change?
Binyomin - Did you just say that frum women are oppressed? Please elaborate (and propose changes that you feel should be made).
I don't know why my last post displays the name "Anonymous."
It was mine.
Are young chareidi / chassidishe women encouraged to pursue education and career paths commensurate with their abilities, inclinations and aspirations? No. Should they? Yes. Would that be threatening to those who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo? Yes. So will it happen anytime soon? No.
There are certain litmus tests, which when applied to any society, tell you all you need to know about that society's "repression index". Women's access to higher education and professional careers is just one of them. When we talk about change in the chareidi / chassidishe camp we must not ignore at least 50 per cent of the population who could benefit from change as well. True change impacts everyone; the tide lifts all the boats.
Binyomin, the constraints of time will have to limit my comments for now.
I am not sure what you (and others) are proposing, but if you are proposing that all yidden join the MO, I cannot take you seriously. MO is clearly not what Yiddishkeit is about.
As to women in frum society, I cannot say that I know the state of women is throughout all frum communities, but I can comment on the communities that I have come in contact with. Among "heimishe" (Boro-Park) frum, heimishe, girls often get a better secular education than their yiddishe education. They go to Touro, or the like; they get masters degrees in various fields (education, therapies like speech or occupational therapy, to name a couple), read, work in Manhattan offices, the list goes on & on.
Lubavitcher and MO women are even more exposed to secular society.
The women I know of are hardly repressed and your comparison to their kuwaiti counterparts is beyond me...
I was very careful not to compare Kuwaiti women to chareidi women. I compared repressive societies which exhibit varying dergrees of repression.
We rationalize that our cheating the government is different than similar frauds commited by Blacks, Hispanics and native American Indians. We would never allow ourselves to be compared to them. Never.
We rationalize that our position with regard to women's education and career progression is different from similar positions held by other closed societies. We would never allow ourselves to be compared to them. Never.
I would respectfully suggest, that if there are differences between "us" and "them" in these areas, they are only differences in degree.
Who's "we" white man?
I never rationalized anything here.
You made a claim - I responded that I don't think your claim is all that accurate (if I understand you correctly).
We Yidden rationalize.
We Yidden think we are different.
I am making a hekesh between government program fraud and other institutionally accepted behaviours in our undemocratic society which I believe could benefit from scrutiny and re-evaluation.
Change in any restrictive society is slow in coming because once you pull away a pillar, others begin to fall as well. Promoting higher education among chareidi / chassidishe yungerleit will of necessity filter down to their sisters. And what will that lead to? Forgive the stretch, but I suspect many Kuwaitis, Saudis and Taliban (l'havdil elef havdolos) struggled with this issue. Along came Bush and took away all the sfeikos.
Hey dude,
Not to sound antagonistic, but d'ya think you could respond to my question?
You can make general statements as the latest & greatest societal critic - but that's neither here nor there. I asked you specifically about a statement that you made, and you respond with a statement.
"They are only differences in degree."
All comparisons are relative, so what? I reiterate:
Please elaborate on the oppression of Jewish women in frum society, and make your proposal for change. Do you claim that my earlier post is incorrect?
I was very clear. I elaborated. And I wasn't dismissive -- who is "dude"?
Binyomin,
"Dude" was just a term of endearment - sorry for the confusion.
I think that everyone likes to "pile-on" at every opportunity to blast anyone - be it an individual or a group. I am personally not a believer that all things are bad and deserve blasting.
I think that the education is so backwards, peasant-like and warped, that people in main-stream frum communities often have no basic ethics. One expression of this is the ripping-off of government programs, as you mentioned.
However, I don't necessarily agree with your claims of female oppression - and I don't think that you clarified that point in your posts here. I don't to see this terrible "repression" of women (and honestly I don't see terrible repression of men either today, but I do agree that there is a somewhat more repressive mentality towards men - relatively speaking).
If you read what I wrote carefully, I never stated that charedi / chassidishe women were oppressed. But clearly they are members of a closed society, just like their brothers. And if a "values change" were to occur from within (the focus of my very first post on this topic), it wouldn't be restricted to just the males. As I wrote before, an incoming tide raises all the boats. I also think it is instructive to see how change comes about in other closed societies; that is why I referered to the Kuwaiti, Saudi and Taliban models. And while some may think it a stretch, if you strip out the external optics, there are some disturbing and ironic similarities.
Wouldn't you agree?
Do I agree? I'm not sure...
Real Torah Yiddishkeit will, and should, remain a somewhat closed society.
The halachos of bishul akum, pas akum, stam yaynum, cholov stam, issurim against intermingling, etc., are specifically preventive of this. That is why I question what kind of freedom you are proposing, and what repressions you are referring to.
I agree that there a number of unhealthy attitudes in chareidi culture, and real challenges that the lifestyle causes us to face - this will force eventual change, I only wish I knew when/how this will take place.
Well put, CE. But does there necessarily have to be a trade-off between these gedorim and secular education. Can they not co-exist?
I would say that an individual might be able to do so successfully - but if you are asking whether frum, ehrleche, yiddin can successfully go through yeshiva and continue to attend secular institutions of higher education - as a plan for everyone - I don't thinks so.
There need to be better alternatives.
Just so you know where I'm coming from, I don't consider myself MO. I have a Munkatch / Satmar / Viznitz background and a very strong attraction to the Alter Rebbe's chassidus. And for sure, I have many more questions than answers.
A kosher un freilichen Pesach.
Reb Binyomin,
We're more-or-less in the same boat my friend.
Chag Kosher V'Sameyach
have you folks ever heard the saying, "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it..."?
Well, sounds like you did not learn of the story of Chanuka where the uber-frum turned over the attempts of those who embraced the openness of Greek civilization..nor did you learn of how proud the German Jews were of their German degrees and culture...nor did you learn how the Reform movement started. Ah well, must we always learn the hard way?
Anonymous (what an unusual name) - Do you care to articulate anything constructive, or was this post just an opportunity to make yourself feel good?
Anonymous is quite a common name, actually. ;)
I thought it was constructive that comment, for those who want to follow it to a logical conclusion - that birth control and college education will not save our nation and continue the eternal thread. Quite L'Hefach.
There is a fascinating incident in Tanach - the story of Eliyahu Hanavi B'Har HaCarmel. At that time, the Jews learned Torah, kept Kosher, etc. etc. etc. But they also worshipped Avodah Zara. Along came Eliyahu and started stirring up the pot, insisting that idol worship had to go. And in that glorious test at Har Hacarmel, Eliyahu proved beyond a shadow of doubt to all the people a fact that they shouted out loud "Hashem Hu Ha'Elokim" So what happened next? Did people turn away from Avodah Zara? Nope, they did not! Huh?! Why ever not, after seeing such a great miracle? Because when they got home, they turned to each other and said, "true Hashem is the ruler, the creater - but what will we eat? How will we pay our tuition bills? The Avodah Zara provides for us!" And Eliyahu's miracle was filed away as interesting but not relevant.
It doesn't make me feel good, Chabakuk Elisha, to see us headed thata way. I thought we could learn from our ancestor's mistakes. And here we are, bashing those with large families, who rely on Hashem and not college degrees.
And p.s. my parents had an even dozen kids, none of which you support or any other college-educated "tzedaka" giver supports. Quite the opposite. All of us are involved in the Bikur Cholims, Tomchei Shabbos orgs, etc. in supporting others. Hashem provides, and not the degree.
I never proposed that Yidden move towards MO. The point that is being addressed had to do with the dysfunctional system that currently exists.
Do you think the current situation is acceptable? Do you have any ideas to improve it?
What makes it dysfunctional? Life is a struggle - has always been. Doesn't necessarily make it dysfunctional. No one guarantees that a college degree will make it less difficult. I currently, with no college degree, am supporting a family where both father and mother have advanced degrees because they never learned to control their monies. The one thing my parents did for us kids, all "too many" of us as the world would think, is teach us the value of a dollar and what is not acceptable in spending. If I don't have, I don't try to live on the standards of "yenem." I don't have a nice house, nice clothing, don't go for a manicure every week, nor party and vacation. And am forging a way in the world.
What should change in our generation is the quest for Kavod - it is okay to be an Ehrliche plumber, electrician, etc. Most of the time, when people are frowning at the system, they think there are only two ways - sit and learn because that is b'kavodike way or, if that is not to be, get a fancy degree with a title. And in either case make sure to have the right clothing, house, car and vacation because it has been deemed "necessities" in our time.
Trade schools opened would be a good thing for Klal Yisroel. People who do make money supporting brothers in Kollel would be another great thing - just as in the Yissacher-zevulan setup, just like the Klal Yisroel-Kohanim setup. And relying on Hashem and not on our own calculations would be the best thing. AND LIVE WITHIN OUR MEANS - not in a manner meant to knock out the eyes of Jew and Gentile alike.
If you don't see a problem, than I have nothing to say.
B"H, I guess nobody is struggling to get by and make it work in your world.
If you think that all people have to do is be financially responsible, than you must be very young. Did you ever hear of rent? Kosher food? Tuition? Which one should I eliminate for you?
If you read my posts above, you will see that we actually basically agree on most points - but the real problems that frum yidden face is undeniable. Enough of the overly simplistic answers. We have a dysfunctional system, where we are not providing individuals with the basic necessities for success. Not b'gashmius and not b'ruchnius. The system is unhealthy, and does not provide people with basic needs to live moral, ethical, healthy, balanced lives.
I agree with you about starting trade schools. However, in addition to that we must improve general education, and figure out ways to create opportunities for people to live on a basic level within their means - and not dependant on defrauding the government, or other shady practices. The cost of tuition need to addressed. Human needs must be considered. Housing must be addressed. What I don't know is how it will / can / should take place.
Chabakuk Elisha,
here is where we disagree. You keep going back to the fact that you think education will pay your rent bills. Education does not pay mine. Hashem does through providing for me. The generation who came from Europe after the Holocaust built up homes and institutions, without the benefits of an education - by hustling and by having an extra Bracha it seems from Hakadsoh Baruch Hu. All my fancy, degreed, educated cousins are still being supported by my uneducated, non-high-school-grad uncle. It might sound simplistic to say- but it is the truth, that parnassa is all from above. The famous story of Reichman - about his saying that it was 99% mazal and 1% his effort that made him his fortune - and that he would trade in his 1% for a bit more mazal.
yes, we live in a times, where it seems Hashem is tightening the strings of the money bags and you see more people struggling - maybe that is because we didn't do the right things with the bounty he sent us before. And the high tuition is because all the principals are in the chinuch field for the kavod and the money - living the same stupid high standards as all of us.
and lastly, I pay rent, food, etc, honored sir, and manage to get by...without that "education" you think opens the gates of parnassah. Go through the Forbes list and see how many of the most wealthy did not have an "education". The Syrian community also usually has fabulously wealthy individuals who did not have "education" but had Emunas Chachamim, wide open hands in giving charity and reliance, complete and totally, on the One above.
Did you read any of my posts on this thread? I too am opposed to enrolling in the universities as a means to a profession.
I also never claimed that parnasah does not come from above. But, education is an essential component - starting when children are small!
Often the statement that "parnasa comes from Hashem" is a plain old cop-out. Let's all sit in kolel, and G-d will provide! But often, the same guy who uses this line will go invest extreme energy in other less virtuous areas, and not "rely on G-d."
The plain truth is that many "ehriche" and "frum" businessmen, will be mehadar b'mitzvos, give Tzedaka, etc. - but when they're involved in business they will walk over your dead body for a buck. Business is often just glorified geneiva - and the Alter Rebbe, for one, was not a proponent of the "Jewish businessman;" he wanted us to build farming communities, with this a one of the primary reasons.
I used to sound like you when I was in my younger years, but simplistic answers don't adresses the reality of the needs.
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