mentalblog.com comments:
How many Lubavitcher students are there at YU and affiliates ? Particularly, how many in the undergraduate schools ? I assume there may be more in the grad schools (?). How many are Lubavitchers from birth (LFB-let's create a new label there ;-) and how many came under Lubavitcher influence later ?
I know there is a tanya club at YU, but I think it's pretty small, is it not ?
I can't give you the answer as I do not know. I have met students in YC , Stern, and RIETS with well known Chabad family names. I have met othrs from South America, CAlifornia and France who were strongly identified with Lubavitch. Yechi kippot were once a Milsa deshechiach hre at YU.
I am not implying that most Lubavitcher teens are college bound , but many are.
When I was here as a student I only met fresh BT's who had become close to Chabad in YU ! Things have changed.
I take issue, Schneur, with your comment about the Rebbe not being anti-Zionist, it shows your lack of knowledge when it comes to this subject.
"The zal is no longer the only forum in which Lubavitch teens are educated."
I think that is an unfortunate state of affairs, and obviously not the ideal.
I do agree, and support the establishment of a SYRIT type institution - but I clearly disagree that Lubavitch, as a "Chassidus" can ever support attending a YU, Stern, Touro, etc., type of institution. Any claim that the times have changed is truly outrageous, and would definitely been opposed by any & all Lubavitcher Rebbes.
Also, any claim that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was pro "Zionist" is absolutely false, and would display a real lack of understanding. The earlier Rabbeim dealt with it as a potential, and the Rebbe was forced to deal with it as a reality; this required a different approach.
The Rebbe was clearly not as antagonistic to secular Zionists as his predecessors were.
As for YU: Until a SYRIT institution opens, there is no choice but to support YU. Where else should people who don't love learning until 22 go? In the meantime, what happens is that they either waste their time until then (not a good thing for a teenager), or they "bum out." Only a select few (only about 10 right now) go to YU. More would come, and would benefit, if Lubavitch encouraged them.
Sigh...
It sure is a sad state of affairs.
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this way, but Lubavitch is not a culture or a race. It is a Chassidic movement with ideals, leaders, philosophies, literature, Torah and stated goals/standards!
It is contrary to what Lubavitch is about, for "Lubavitchers" to cut their beards or go to institutions of secular education (nor may they neglect study of Nigla/Chassidus, don Tefillin, keep hilchos Tznius, etc, etc). It is not an option for "Lubavitchers" to encourage students to attend college; they must find other options (of which SYRIT would be one).
The fact that people are doing it anyway is not an excuse for throwing the values out the window.
The Rebbe dealt with Zionism as a reality. That does not mean that he was sympathetic to secular Zionism.
CE, you da man!
THE ZAL IN GOLUS
The Almighty’s plan to give Eretz Yisroel to the Jews was conditional, the Jews not having their own government is the consequence of not living up to the conditions stipulated to Avraham Avinu at Bris Bein HaBesorim.
We say in the Kriyas Shema every day “Va’Avadetem Meheira Me’Aretz HaTova…”, that it is the stage we have now of not having a Jewish government, a state of affairs knows as Golus. Our Nevi’im have told us that the way out of the Golus is through a Goel (Mashiach) who will bring the Geulah. So we have three concepts: Golus, Geulah and Goel.
Lubavitch is erroneous in their beliefs on all three concepts.
They laugh at Golus, making fun of something that is Gezeiras Hashem that is ingrained in the Jewish faith. (Outside of Eretz Yisroel, Crown Heights is the only community post WWII that had to be reminded by Hashem through a Pogrom that we are still in Golus. Yet, despite that reminder, they are so brainwashed by Mamash that most of the people did not get the message.)
Geulah is not something that comes gradually. It is either here or not.
Goel/Mashiach will not have to go through a primary election or a brainwashing campaign by those who accept him already (B’Oifen Hamiskabel), and those who have not YET accepted him.
The fact that Zionism is a reality, as CE stated, does not change the facts listed above, and the stage of Golus we are in. The fact that Mamash fantasized about being Moshiach doesn’t either change a thing.
The Zionist government and many Reform Jews paid into the Lubavitch propaganda machine to make fun of Golus and to ensure the Chabadniks don’t wait for the Geulah Sheleima, and that Mamash felt that he is Moshiach, and that Christian fundamentalists believed that yoshke is the Moshiach did not deter the Zionist establishment of using both Lubavitch and Christian fundamentalists as their mouthpiece proclaiming an end of Golus.
The fact that the Mamash and Rayatz did not learn in a Zal 12 hours a day and spent time browsing in Seforim Chitzonim and being surrounded by Maskilim led them to do the job that Moses Mendelsohn did for his generation.
The only thing that IS changing is that people brainwashed by the Lubavitcher propaganda machine are waking up slowly but surely to the fact that everything, including those Shtussim about Zionism/Geula Rebbe/Goel along with the other fiction and fantasy that Chabad of today encompasses is all false.
CE
Why would they have to cut their beards to go to YU, Touro etc.? (Not withstanding that they would want to "fit in", the CR supported looking different as a "statement".)
"The Rebbe was forced to deal with reality ..."
Would that his followeres were.
Rebeljew,
I didn't mean that they would have to do so - rather, that they are both examples of unacceptable behavior for a Lubavitcher Chossid. These things we unheard of not so long ago; but I can walk into 770 on any given day and find quite a number of clean shaven, or trimmed beards in kappotes, etc. I am just saying that although this may go on today, it does not mean that it is acceptable by standards of Lubavitcher Chassidus, or the Rabbeim.
Maybe because Lubavitchers of this variety don't have to "face the Rebbe" anymore, they feel more comfortable in doing whatever they feel like?
It reminds me of a story: The Tzemach Tzedek had a chossid who dressed chassidish in town, but while away on business he started dressing in more modern attire. After some time, the day came when he started to wear the modern business clothing even in Lubavitch itself. When the Rebbe saw him dressed this way, he questioned him about it - to which the chossid replied that he had been doing this for some time while he was away, and he felt that he didn't want to be a hypocrite any more. The Tzemach Tzedek replied, I know you used to dress this way while on business, but I thought that this was the real you, now your telling me that is the real you...
And I sure am with you on your second remark.
If the Lubavitcher rebbe is anti-Zionist pray tell me what the Satmarer rebbe was.
Have you guys ever seen pictures or films fof the kavod melochim personally extended to Mr. Begin and Mr Shazar by the Rebbe when they visited 770. I can not forget the bear hugs and smiles in both instances. What about the kavod the rebbe gave to visiting Israeli generals and politicians.
Of course you can forget the rebbe's micro management of Israel's wars calling for the taking over over damascus etc.
I guess thats Neture karta doctrine.
Surely in name the rebbe was not a Zionist but in fact he was not an anti-Zionist.
If you wish you may call it anti-Zionist and i can call YU charedi too.
Schneur, here is my pask din on zionism - you are correct!
If Lubavitch demands a certain standard and college is unacceptable, then what, pray tell, should the many "uninterested-in-learning-full-time-until-22" kids do?
Sometimes I wonder if I am living in the same universe with other people on this blog. Times changing is outrageous . No times do not change there was no Holocaust, no fall of the Iron Curtain , no creation of Israel, its all just in my mind ! No modern technology, no cell phone era , no communication revolution. All this did not affect the way e live. You know what if you told the rebbe that he would laugh at you ! Because he was the master in detecting these changes and using them to benefit Judaism . These events have no effect on anyone??
Was there a sexual revolution in America in the 1960's and did it effect the moral condition of america ? Did the 6 day war have a major impact on Jewish identity in the US in its aftermath ?
Well I choose to remain outrageous.
I never advocated Lubavitcher going to YU etc. As a matter of fact I got into a discussion with the son of aleading Krinsky shliach in CA Rabbi E. about what he was doing here at YU.
But all I am stating is the reality, many Metro colleges have various sorts of chabad students and I am suggesting that chabad deal with this issue. I am not suggesting that Lubavitch become pro-college, rather it should start technical colleges and career schools. If it helps some people to digest this Walt Whitman Brooklyn's great poet once said that technical education is the beginning of the end of real education. So Lubavitch need not worry about giving up its anti college stance.
Schneur,
The Lubavitcher Rebbe did not live all that long ago. Did you ever hear him hint that chassidim should start going to college? Does this mesh with Chassidishe values?
I never said that the Rebbe was a rabid anti-Zionist. But if you (or Berl) want to say that the Rebbe was an advocate for, or supported, secular Zionism, I think that is absolutely incorrect - and please provide maare mekomos that prove otherwise. The Rebbe felt that once the State of Israel existed it needed to be dealt with, and done so with positive means. It saddens me greatly to hear people claim that the Rebbe was any kind of secularist.
The oft-repeated staement of the Previous Rebbe, "America iz nisht Anderish," did not deny that there were changes going on, or the statement would have been unnecessary -it means that the approach and values of the past do not change. And that means that the hergesh chasidi must remain - including all the things I mentioned earlier.
Or do you disagree with this to?
CV, all I said was that the Rebbe was not an "anti-zionist"
CE, the Rebbe's view of college is not as simple as you present it or as the cookie-cutter mashpeim make their mushpoim believe. There are all the anti-college statements, to be sure. But if the Rebbe’s daas is all that matters (and not a desire to happily fit the Rebbe into the narrow charedi definition), then those statements should never be taken out of context. Also, surely you know that there were people whom the Rebbe encouraged to go to college. Who will take on the role of advising someone in with a similar need today?
Schneur/Berl,
I don't think I ever said that the Rebbe was "Anti-Zionist."
I think this is what I said (and if read carefully it is not the same thing, in my opinion):
"...any claim that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was pro "Zionist" is absolutely false, and would display a real lack of understanding. The earlier Rabbeim dealt with it as a potential, and the Rebbe was forced to deal with it as a reality; this required a different approach."
And I said:
"The Rebbe dealt with Zionism as a reality. That does not mean that he was sympathetic to secular Zionism."
Do you disagree with these statements?
Berl,
Did the Rebbe ever advise bochurim in 770 to go to college - or was it only unique circumstances, such as someone already in college or not currently in Zal?
I may have been misled all these years, but I never heard otherwise from anyone in a position of authority in Chabad...
CE, Re Zionism and the Rebbe, I would say this, too, is more complicated than you make it sound. Nor did Schneur say anywhere that the Rebbe was a Zionist. It is just that his description seems closer aligned with reality than yours. Sorry.
You don't have to be sorry; if I'm wrong - then I'm wrong.
I am writing based on what I have understood/heard/been exposed to. If you say that the truth is otherwise - please clarify what you mean, and I will have learned something new today.
CE, can you, for example, imagine a situation where what was "unique circumstances" yesterday is common place today? Or another example - an attitude about college that was common place yesterday being unique today? Neither of those possibilities is far-fetched today! We need to be careful not to making blanket statements in the Rebbe's name!
Berl,
I don't know what to tell you. Based on this logic, all the statements the Rebbe ever made are meaningless, because we don't know what he would have said today. If that is the case, we are in a hopeless situation, and the best advise is to jump ship now - before it sinks.
For this reason I cannot accept the way you see it.
I have spent years debating with Heimishe Yidden that Lubavitch is a real derech in Chassidus, and not a faction of Modern Orthodoxy - what you're saying gives me very little support for my side of the debate.
CE, I just love your b/w approach: there is either "one meaning" or it is "meaningless"! Sometimes I forget how young you are... Let me rephrase what I said. We should avoid cookie-cutter-one-size-fits-all-out-of-context pronouncements on the Rebbe's behalf. In matters like this, an individual can, with a help of a thoughtful chassidishe mashpia understand the Rebbe's kavono for their particular situation. I am truly sorry this approach is not neat enough for the "Heimishe Yidden" debating society.
CE, if what you are trying to do is recruit converts to Lubavitch that still need to be reassured the Rebbe is part of the "medina and college are treif" crowd, just tell them he is. I would in a blink. און תוך שלא לשמו בא לשמו ... :)
While the Rebbe did not suport secular Zionists, he was certainly very welcoming to secular Zionists and cared very much about the country. No other antiZionist acted as he did. In fact, as everyone here well knows, many antiZionists considered the Rebbe a Zionist.
Again, I agree the Rebbe wasn't a Zionist. However, one wonders if his father-in-law or his grandfather-in-law (Is there such a word?) would have acted as he did.
However, one wonders if his father-in-law or his grandfather-in-law would have acted as he did.
JMO, The Previous Rebbe did act in exactly such a way. The very warm Zalman Rubashev [aka Shazar] connection was actually his; there is other reliable anecdotal evidence surrounding the events of 1948 to suggest more of the same friendly disposition later made famous by the Rebbe. As to the Rebbe Rashab, given the Previous Rebbe's legendary devotion to his father's approach to everything, you can safely assume his father would have acted the same way. It would be silly to assume that any outsider has a better grasp of the precise nature of the Rebbe Rashab’s opposition to Zionism in the early 1900s than his son and spiritual successor!
CE,
There is nothing vague or equivocal in the letters that the Rebbe wrote to people explaining his shita about college. "Look at the Rebbe's printed words" rather than anyone's claims to know the Rebbe's "true" Kavonos
I think we have to face facts. Full time yeshiva learning isn't for everyone. A year or so back Machon Leparnosa tried to open a branch in Crown Heights. I think they were discouraged from doing so by some organizations in the neighborhood. I'm not quite sure why. I understand that kids should be encouraged to stay in yeshiva full time but vocational training is better than "valgerin" in the streets and getting into drugs and other bad stuff. When there is a void in one's life it will be filled by something, it might as well be useful.
By the way, Rabbi Zalman Schneerson was a brilliant and forward thinking man for his times. He saw where the frum community was going and tried single handedly to stem the tide by creating SYRIT. His life was devoted to doing for others. We should encourage any and all efforts to get kids off the street and into frum vocational programs.
to berel,
did u see Rebe Rashab's letters on zionism on neturei katra website?
I would like to know the basis for the Berl/Schneor take on what the Rebbe's position is.
#1. The fact that the Rebbe embraced Zionists does not prove to me that the Rebbe was pro-Zionist; all it proves is that the Rebbe had Ahavas Yisroel. If you believe that the Rebbe was a Zionist or supported secular Zionism please prove it to me with words, not a hug and a smile.
The Rebbe smiled and gave a Brocha to David Dinkins as well; does that mean he held David Dinkins made a great mayor?
Forget about the Heimishe debate club, I want to know for myself. What is the truth here? I NEVER heard anything that pointed to an affinity for secular Zionism.
#2. College. Let's not start splitting hairs - as the Rebbe would often say "Torah al harov tidaber." Let's not talk about the few exceptions to the rule here. As a general rule, does a Lubavitcher chossid belong in College according to the Rebbe?
If you think so, I have to be convinced. Just because .001% of the population was told to go - for whatever unusual reason (and for all we know, maybe they still shouldn't have gone) - is it logical to think that the Rebbe would at some point change that to the rule, and not the unlikely exception, now that 10 years has passed? I am not talking about some unusual case, in which the Rebbe clearly said to speak with your mashpia - I'M TALKING ABOUT THE RULE.
You can blame it on the fact that I'm not yet 40 or that I am a Bush voter, and thus unable to grasp nuanced ideas, but seriously you don't see the inherent problem in your logic? By saying we can’t put words in the Rebbe’s mouth, about an issue that the Rebbe spoke quite a bit about, aren’t you dangerously close to effectively removing all the words that ever came out of the Rebbe’s mouth?
some thoughts,
read my comment again and see whether you question has any relevance to what I said.
CE, cut out the "pro-zionist" stuff. No one said "pro" - just not "anti".
Re college: "Ask-the-mashpia" does not work for you? The topic here was not the run-of-the-mill bochur, is there no room for them in your Lubavitch?
Berl,
You took issue with my statement above. If the Rebbe was not pro-Zionist, so what about it do you disagree with?
We should ask our mashpia about lots of stuff. That’s a clear directive from the Rebbe - the point here was, should college be encouraged?
Should it be accepted as normal for a "Lubavitcher" that doesn’t enjoy a blatt Gemora to sign up at Brooklyn College? Should they open a YU satellite branch next to the new Childrens Museum and call it (as Schneur proposed) "Schneerson college?" Should there be no stigma attached to a Lubavitcher bochur that attends Columbia University? I never was addressing an unusual case.
Now, if a vast majority of kids are not making it in Yeshiva, is it your belief that the Rebbe would rubber stamp all requests for college and have the mashpiim advise them as such? I think that's basically what we're talking about here.
I find it hard to imagine the Rebbe approving of it... but I could be wrong, and maybe I'm too far-heimished.
Ah, Berl, forget it.
I hold your opinion in high esteem, which is what got me going here, but I don't think we really disagree all that much. I imagine that I have some "Heimishe" leanings, which color my vision – as it is hard for me to separate Lubavitch from the values of the "fremde felder." As a rule I try to "mainstream" Lubavitch - especially as I drei tzich tzuvishin di Boro-Parker, and this surely has had an effect on me.
So I concede to you, as a wiser, less tainted and more experienced elder.
And thank you for defending me when I was under attack for hyperbolizing a couple bloggers who like to spew here…
"Now, if a vast majority of kids are not making it in Yeshiva, is it your belief that the Rebbe would rubber stamp all requests for college and have the mashpiim advise them as such?"
Of course not. The Rebbe would have advised them to try other yeshivos where they might be happier. Le'olom yilmod odom bemokom sheliboi chofeitz". I don't believe that the Rebbe would ever have told anyone "be grateful for what Lubavitch has done for you and stay put".
CE, let's end this particular discussion:
Zionism: Schneur wrote: "Surely in name the Rebbe was not a Zionist but in fact he was not an anti-Zionist." This statement is factually accurate and not debatable. You can forever discuss the "whys", but Schneur merely stated the indisputable "what".
College: Schneur wrote: "I am suggesting that Chabad deal with this issue. I am not suggesting that Lubavitch become pro-college, rather it should start technical colleges and career schools." Well, recently in Jerusalem some very mainstream Lubavitchers started a smicha program that is combined with 1/2 day professional college-accredited courses. Would you suggest they are doing something contrary to the Rebbe's wishes? How is the protracted discussion about the Rebbe’s anti-college statements going to address Schneur’s very cogent and very specific statement that, btw, explicitly does not call for any theological reversal of the anti-college position?
Why manufacture unending arguments?
Berl,
I agree entirely with that statement - in that specific limited language. Which is why I said that I don't think we really disagree all that much. (BTW, I don't think I ever said anything other than that.)
My problem was with a Touro/YU solution - never with a vocational/technical school.
I also don't know what the Zionist statement really means, or if my quotes above really conflicts with it.
I'm just not sure that you are representing Schneur's position 100% accurately, but if you are than we all agree.
Yossi: All Lubavitch yeshivos are basically the same.
Currently, only "bad" kids go to the Lubavitch vocational schools (including the semicha program in israel). No smart or "good" kid is ever encouraged to go there. This stigma has to go away or we're left with the problem.
The stigma will only go away when people stop being afraid of the "Kano'im". Or when the Kano'im themselves are in the same situation, and have to send their kids to non-mainstream schools.
Schneur, do you suffer from bi-polar disease? I'm serious here, you keep on jumping between both sides of the issues!
It's very easy to focus on one group of people and highlight their supposed shortcomings. 95% od Budapest Jewry was lost to the Neologen, most of Lithuanian Jewry, Polish Jewry, German Jewry (of course) and any other jewry was irreligious after WWI. They were descendants of rabbonim, roshei Yeshiva, Tzaddikim, Perushim, and laymen. Do you deem all those movements a failure as well?
How many of the later Zionists Bundists, Communists, Socialists, and g-d knows what else 'ists were products of the Holy institutions of learning in Poland and Lithuania?
HOW MANY YU GRADUATES HAVE TAKEN UP PULPIT POSITIONS IN REFORM, CONSERVATIVE, AND EVEN RECONSTRUCTIONIST SYNAGOGUES!!!
Avremel | 05.18.05 - 4:51 pm | #
I fail to see what caused the CAPS.
Berel is a good representation of my views. Thank Berel for explaining my views. Yeyasher !
I know I am beating an already beaten dead horse here, but…
Can it be said that the Rebbe was Pro-Jew and Pro-Etetz Hakodesh, and not a fan of Zionists/ism?
What I mean is, “isms” and “ists” represent a philosophy or actions; and I don’t think the Rebbe supported the philosophy of secular zionism or the actions of zionists. Once zionism was established, he decided to use kiruv to influence them – not that he necessarily softened his stance.
That’s all I’ve been trying to say about this.
For example -
When the Rebbe was asked if he supports the candidacy of Y. Shamir (I can get the exact quote as this is on video, but I have no access to it here & now), his answer was:
I’m not a believer in politics; I’m a believer in an ideal. So, whoever closest supports that ideal would be best. But in truth I believe in a different type of leader, a Torah true Nasi – Moshiach – with no interest in coalition government, broad or otherwise.
And I remember the Rebbe saying that the increased aliyah in recent times had an aspect of kibutz goliyos
yossi.this is zionism not to wait for moshiach
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