mentalblog.com comments:
Off topic: Schneur, could you translate what Reb S.Z.B. grandson wrote there?
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...45186569/
#66027
The blogger was trying to refute charges that his Zaide supposedly was upset with Lubavitch in the alst years of his life, these charges were made here, not by me (G-D forbid). My response was that he embarresed his zaide while defending Lubavitch. And here was a defense of his actions. While I stand by my comment the grandson obvioulsy has a different viewpoint .
I couldnt agree with you more, although senility is not something to be embarrased of,(our brains are physical organs just like any other part of our bodies). The fact that a grandson was willing to disparage (in his mind at least) his grandfather in order to defend Lubavitch is wrong. Without knowing RZB I would assume that like everybody else he had some children and grandchildren that he was very proud of and some that he wasnt, is it possible that in the past few years he questioned what his children would have looked like if he stayed in Williamsburg, maybe. So what.
Schneur, do you suffer from bi-polar disease? I'm serious here, you keep on jumping between both sides of the issues!
It's very easy to focus on one group of people and highlight their supposed shortcomings. 95% od Budapest Jewry was lost to the Neologen, most of Lithuanian Jewry, Polish Jewry, German Jewry (of course) and any other jewry was irreligious after WWI. They were descendants of rabbonim, roshei Yeshiva, Tzaddikim, Perushim, and laymen. Do you deem all those movements a failure as well?
How many of the later Zionists Bundists, Communists, Socialists, and g-d knows what else 'ists were products of the Holy institutions of learning in Poland and Lithuania?
HOW MANY YU GRADUATES HAVE TAKEN UP PULPIT POSITIONS IN REFORM, CONSERVATIVE, AND EVEN RECONSTRUCTIONIST SYNAGOGUES!!!
Avrem'l
As you people say U-vechen ! Eyn Hochi nami ? So what ?
Do the Aleksander chasidm (Poland) have emissaries going to the Hebron Yeshiva asking them to become aleksander chasidim ? Does The Chug Chasam Sofer in bnai Brak or the Vienner kehilla send people to YU asking them to become followers of the Mahaam Schick or to study the Toras Moshe sefer. Does YU send shluchim to Lubavitch and ask them to study Halachic Man ? Does the KAJ community send shluchim to YU asking them tobecome Hirschians. Gospadin Avremel the answer is no!
Only Lubavitch has the honor of having shluchim not only to non observant Jews but to frume Yidden as well such as shluchim to YU, to Williamsburg to influence teen agers to become Chabad chasidim ( Rav Mendel Wechter and others) to Hebron to other Yeshivas (Maadani Yontev series) what is the sole purpose of heichal menachem if not speading the Maayanoth amongst frume Yiden ? Only Lubavitch claims to have the sole truth in terms of emunoth vedeaoth and ritual practice.So you have to answer if the state of Chabad is so , what guarantees are there for the future.
By the way I am not bi=polar( because you clearly have no idea of the medical meaning of that term )what I am is non political. I will not insult my father to defend a Jewish political -religious group or allign myself down the line with one group.
I and many others like me pick and choose.
But ikor shachachta, you do not deny my description of the decay of Chabad in the late 19th and 20th century!!
But I know the answer to that question.
Schneour:I happen to agree with your assesment of Lubavitch:Namely many bacame irreligous and joined all kinds of groups from the Bundisten, to the communists in Russia some were even in the Yevsektsia as the famous Mr Lulav who arrested the Rayat'z.True this affected all Eastern European jewry,but Lubavitch were no different and neither was bais harav.I'm not judging anybody btw,it was a very tumultous period in history.
However when I mentioned this once upon a time you disafreed with my assesment if I recall correctly.
One thing has changed in todays Lubavitch.The Rebbe instilled an amazing sense of pride in Lubavitchers,it's interesting that even some who 'frei out' seem to still be proud.This may be a good thing.
To Malach in re myself "a mol a malach amol a galach " as the Yiddish expression goes.
I don't remember what I wrote in the past but I believe I stressed the fact that there were at least several hundred families of Tmimmim and others who joined Chabad after 1927 who Chabad enabled to remain frum. So about 1,000 families remained frum maybe more. I will never deny that . I also will not deny the valient effort by which the Tmimmim fought to maintain Yiddishkeyt in Communist Russia for well over 50 years.
This is not really a contradiction. All I wish to say is that Chabad contracted as a movement together with all other Orthodx movements as my friend Avrem'l so correctly points out.Other Chassidic completely disappeared like Koidenov, Talno, rachmistrivkeh and Lechewitz etc. But as I respond the othr groups do not claim "ani veafsi od."
The Shitas Chasam Sofer because part of it merged with chassiduth in Hungary was able to maintain its own until 1944 in greater Hungary. Because a great deal of hUngarian jews survived the War, it turns out that the hisbadlus was instrumental in saving orthodoxy. I am not saying that the shita of Hisbadlus is better than Chabad .
I personally love Chabad and am proud of my heritage of Lubavitch. But I do not go for the imperialist nature of present day chabad.
Shneour, thanks for responding.
Btw Rachmastrivka is alive and very well, boruch hashem!
There are two rebbes one in Boro Park son in law of the Skverer rebbe.He has a large following and is very esteemed for his approachability and humility a very saintly man.His brother in Yerusholyaim recently passed away and his son was appointed rebbe.Another son became Lubavitch and lives in Crown Heights.There has been a Rachmastrivka yeshiva in yerusholayim for many years and the chassidus in eretz yisroel numbers hundreds of families.In Boro Park a new large shul was recently built it has a very unique Aron Kodesh which many people come to see.
Schneur,
Do any of your Lubavitch fellow co-workers or friends ever try to argue with you the superiority of Lubavitch and why you should switch teams?
Or are we just discussing "what others do to others''?
Rachmistrivka is alive and well today, that is only in the past 10 years, when the present Skevere Rebbe had a fight with his son-in-law and he left New Square, to start his own Chassidus. The Chassidim that he has are all new, none of them are descendents from old Rachmistrivka Chassidim, since there were none left, as Schenur pointed out correctly. That is why there is no one over the age of 40 in his shul.
the Rachmistrivka Rebbe in E. Israel is a decendent of Rebbes that came to EI before the war, mostr or all of the Chassidim are later additions, as is the case with Skver, as a matter of fact, when the Skverrer Rebbe traveled to Russia in 5750 he finally met old time Skverrer Chassidim! old Russian Jews, who hadn't put on Tefillin in 70 years!
Rachmistrivkeh today is except for the royal family not a real continuation of the old rachmistrivke of russia. I was in the Rachmistrivke bethmedrash in Monsey and saw the rebbe and his brother the local rav. The olam was not Russian . In America its composed of dissident Skverer and other Jews from BP who see the rebbe as a zaddik and ish emes.In Israel the followers are mainly Yerushalmis etc.
Koidenov for that matter is also alive with a young rebbe who is a real oved and zaddik Moreinu Rav Yaakov Erlich shlit'a.I am proud to be counted amongst his supporters,and admirers. But his followers are not from White Russia.95% of all Skverer chasidim today are of Hungarian background not Russian .
Lubavitz is the only White Russian chassiduth to survive world war 2 in some strenth. Most Slonimer are from the yishuv hayoshen and the same is true with karlin-stolin in all its 4 branches ken yirbu !
Schneur
"Moreinu Rav Yaakov Erlich shlit'a"?
never heard of him, is he a grandson of the last Koidinover?
is he trying to get the shul in Yerushalayim?
Rachmistrivka is alive and well 'today, that is only in the past 10 years, when the present Skevere Rebbe had a fight with his son-in-law and he left New Square, to start his own Chassidus. The Chassidim that he has are all new, none of them are descendents from old Rachmistrivka Chassidim, since there were none left, as Schenur pointed out correctly. That is why there is no one over the age of 40 in his shul.
chaim | 05.19.05 - 9:43 am | #
Chaim, what are you talking about?
The present Skverer Rebbe is a brother in law of Rachmastrivka, I know that they have married off kids to each other and grandkids.And he has been in Boro Park for a lot longer than ten years.
Shneour, almost all chasidic dynasties have survived with only a minority of the original group.Today Hungarian jews dominate in almost every community,Chasidish or Litvish.Chabad also has a minority of 'original' chassidim.
1. Correct . except for Ger and Lubavitch. Hungaian Jews dominate all Chasidic groups. But the Russian groups almost completely disappeared like Talno, Trisk, Makarev etc Rebbes remain but are there Trisker chasidim. I have met 1 or 2.
2. Moreinu rabbi Yankev Erlich is a grandson of Rabbi Zilberfarb who was the Botoshaner Koidenover rebbe in Rumania before the war. After the war he became Koidenover rebbe although there were several others with similar titles (Rav Moshele Schneersohn_Twersky of CH ( a gute bruder with the Lubavitcher rebbe). Several years ago young Rav Erlich was made rebbe to suceed his uncle. He is a big kenner in Chasiduth and Nigle, kishmo ken hu and a eynikel of the zekan horabbonim the Naroler rav shlit'a who had a BM in CH for many years.
es the young Rav Erlich in trying to reclaim the Koidenover shul from Rabbi Halperin in Jslm.
Rabbi Erlich is very much into kiruv and a very serious man. he is not anti-Chabad. He is just trying to recover property he perceives as belonging to his movement.
I have been giving my comments on Lubavitch some thought.
There clearly were more Lubavitch -chabad chasidim in Russia then people over 75 and several hundred Tmimim. My point is that by 1929 most were middle aged and the only young ones (under 40)were the Tmimmim and a much smaller group who studied in the kibbutz of Rav Shmaryahu Neyach Schneersohn in Bobruisk (Rabbis Zevin, Telushkin, Lubanov, Kipnis M. Schneersohn etc). But I think I underestimated the number of middle aged chasidim who were not Tmimmim . They were mostly Chasedi haNusach in the terms that the 6th rebbe used.There were also more than a few Kopuster chabad people around who were leaderless after the Bobruisker's death.
In my father's town there were numerous such people but almost no young chasidim by 1939. In Stalin's Russia I am sure things were worse.
I also neglected to count numerous asiatic Jews in Gergia and Uzbekistan who hooked up with Chabad at some point.
In the USA prior to 1940 most of the Anshe lubavitch, Nusach Ari and ZZ shuls were populated by chasede haNusach or Chaside haGezha.There were about 1 dozen Tmimmim in the states and some other Chabad people.
Even in Eretz israel (according to an interview in KEFAR CHABAD with rabbi Halperin there was a complete lack of hiskashrus to beth rabbeinu and the study of dach was neglected there until 1929 with the nesiyo of the rebbe there.
So in my revised account there were more Chabad people but still a tremendous "yerida" from the days of the ZZ.
I would imagine that many of the 1-2 million Russian Jews who arrived in America between 1880 and 1914 were Chassidim, with Chabad Chassidim being a sizeable percentage, as can be evidenced by the numerous Nusach Ari shuls across the USA.
dont mean to flog a dead horse but the comments began off topic ill bring them back to the off -topic
the first three comments seem to address what I wrote earlier about schneur's response to something a (still anonymous to me!) relative of mine wrote.
to schneur, my point was and since I guess I didnt not mak it clear so I will qoute 'brother's comment to yours: "there is no shame in senility"!, which is exactly the point I was making.
you wrote that what what was written (I DO NOT KNOW BY WHOM) was a bizoyon to my zeyde,
so i wrote that whoever wrote it probably thinks like i do that there is no shame in senility, not that he intended to shame his zeyde to protect lubavitch (if that was his intention I would not seek to protect such a warped individual even if he claims to be a relative of mine)
brother if yacov shimon's intention was as benign as you understood I dont think anyone would have commented on it.
I only heard about the comment from a friend who understood it the same way i did (and it seems my cousin as well as CE qouting zirkind) to imply a much harsher atack on lubavitch (which still would not justify shaming my zeyde's memory if senility would be something to be ashamed of.
the more important point is that the comments if it was made at all was grossly taken out of context at a time when hardly any import should have been given even to a comment as harsh as he claimed.
again, I agree with scheur that hsi condition should not have been mentioned (by whoever diud mention it) but disagree with him about the fact that it supposedly shames my zeyde.
" Off topic: Schneur, could you translate what Reb S.Z.B. grandson wrote there?
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...nts...45186569/
#66027
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 05.18.05 - 7:02 am | #
The blogger was trying to refute charges that his Zaide supposedly was upset with Lubavitch in the alst years of his life, these charges were made here, not by me (G-D forbid). My response was that he embarresed his zaide while defending Lubavitch. And here was a defense of his actions. While I stand by my comment the grandson obvioulsy has a different viewpoint .
Schneur | 05.18.05 - 12:42 pm | #
I couldnt agree with you more, although senility is not something to be embarrased of,(our brains are physical organs just like any other part of our bodies). The fact that a grandson was willing to disparage (in his mind at least) his grandfather in order to defend Lubavitch is wrong. Without knowing RZB I would assume that like everybody else he had some children and grandchildren that he was very proud of and some that he wasnt, is it possible that in the past few years he questioned what his children would have looked like if he stayed in Williamsburg, maybe. So what.
brother | 05.18.05 - 1:52 pm | #
Schneur, do you suffe
For the record - you are discounting quite a number of the Alter Rebbes decendants by not including matrelineal offspring. Must one carry the name "Schneerson" to be considered "Beis Horav"?
Most Slonimer are from the yishuv hayoshen and the same is true with karlin-stolin in all its 4 branches ken yirbu !
Off topic, but what are the four bran hes. I know of only three, Stolin, Pinsk-Karlin and Lutsk
Schneour,where did R'Zevin study(you mentioned him earlier)I seem to remember that he studied in the Mir, could you add some details.(I also thought that he was not a 'real' Lubavitcher,meaning that he had a shaychus, family wise and more, but was not a full fledged member, since he had zionistic tendencies and mussar to.)
I believe that R' Zevin studied in Bobroisk by R' Shamrya Noach Schneerson
Of course there are some descendants of the zemach zedek from the zad hanukva like the Butman family , I actually know of no other Chabad families desc. from the ZZ even from the zad hanukva ??
The Bobroisker has orthodox desc in Israel but the ones I met are far from chabad .
The Chebiner family is certainly not chabad.
The 4th branch of karlin is a group of "young Stoliner" (not from the lelover branch)who broke away from Rav Shochet the current rebbe on POLITICAL grounds regarding Zionism and started a group which i think is called chaside Yerusholayim !
Lutzk really has no followers it is a satelite of Stolin-karlin.
Rav Zevin studied in Bobroisk and joined Lubavitch later after the petirah of his rebbe. Zevin unlike most Lubavitchers was a Mizrachi.
To Avremel. As far as the numerous Nusach Ari shuls in the US. If you read Israel Jacobson's memoirs you will note that the members of these shuls were either Chaside hageza that is desc. of Lubavitchers or Chaside hanusach desc. who also davened Ari and had other Chabad customs.
Few were in the lashon of the rayaatz chaside chabad those who studied DACH and/or were mekushar to bais Chayenu or the hoifen of Kopust or Liadi.(These are categories designated by the Rayaatz)
I met in New haven people of the 1st 2 categories while a young child , I never met a "real" chasid in NH from the old school.(Studied Dach and mekushar)
Because of this few of these people's children remained frum and still fewer Lubavitch and this includes children of Chashuve Chabad type rabbonim and shochetim vechuli
In most cases those children who remained frum were the children of the dozen or so Tmimmim in America in the pre war days.
I thought ger was also mainly Hungarian nowadays
it has a lot of hungarian but the nucleus is still polish. somewhat like chabad
this i didnt onder stand
it need to become a gerrer shul or a satmer rebbe
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