I believe this is overdoing it. Tzemach's point of chasidus being chazered without the capability of adding to it is more to the point. This seems more like a rant against - who? Laibl Wolf? Simon Jacobsen?
guravitzer | 05.31.05 - 11:08 pm | #

G-d help you, Tzemach, if you speak against their New Age stuff. I hear that Nshei Chabad devotes a lot of energy to Chinese philosophy, New Age religious ideas, magic medicine, and even yoga. Would the Rebbe have been proud?
rebeljew | Homepage | 05.31.05 - 11:31 pm | #

Don't forget Manis Friedman, the prophet of homeopathic medicine.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 05.31.05 - 11:39 pm | #

What ever happened to poor old Manis and why this attraction with homeopathy?
Boruch | 06.01.05 - 12:24 am | #

The difference is that Manis, when asked to speak Chasidus, does exactly that. Very well, of course, as he is definitely one of those who can be original.

rebel, where exactly does Nshei Chabad do that?
guravitzer | 06.01.05 - 8:53 am | #

Indeed Manis, is original and creative.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 06.01.05 - 9:29 am | #

The fact that some readers can name seveal rabbis who "fit the bill" so to speak, shows how prevalent this type of New Age discourse has become in terms of outreach in Chabad.
hats why there is such a difference between listening to a reb Yoel Kahan etc and some of the Chabad circuit speakers who sound more like New Age gurus than Orthodox Jews.
Perhaps Chabad should go back to its original outreach scheme that is talking about Mitzvoth, Divine plan for the Jewish people, Kabbaath Ol. They had much success inthis manner
Schneur | 06.01.05 - 11:29 am | #

I disagree with the comparison between Yeshiva bochurim and PHD's.
Those who actually learn, put in many more hours of study than would be required for an advanced secular degree. In addition, perusing the students' journals shows that there is some erudite thinking going on.

As the gemara says, the problem is not the students, its the teachers and mashpiyim.
In fact, it's also the baalei batim. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a young person dissed or "shouted down"
when they try to say a d'var torah etc. Don't they know that many of our greatest leaders started out quite young: the rama 18, Alter Rebbe 16.

The "internalizing" of our youth, going on today, represents a rejection of the emptiness of the today's false Chassidim. Those who have no learning but lean on the inflated merits of their relatives. If anything, today's youth represent a renewal of Chassidus. I see more Ahavas Achim among the kids today than among their fathers. B"H, the cold, KGB, "inform on your brother", mentality is slowly coming to an end. We have real chassidus. Even one saying can be enough. What we need are real Chassidim!
Avi | 06.01.05 - 11:50 am | #

The issue is not study . The issue is understanding.
We all learn Chumash at the age of 5. Lets assume we learnt Sefer Breishith at age 5-6 and did well . Is our understnading of Breishis the same at age 16 of the same subject as it was when we were children.
. Bachurim who are not married, have no ol Parnosseh , have never been sick ,study Chassiduth not Mi-Toch hadechak, but from prosperity.
They know nothing of fundemental laws of psychology, philosophy and human growth. How much understanding do they have of any of the Chassiduth they study.
We are not talking about covering ground or charifuth , we are talking about the Kotzker kasha "and what did the gemora teach you" - UNDERSTANDING.
Next I am not going to use this forum to discuss the structure of graduate study in our univesities.
As a former Ph.D. candidate myself I can tell the previous poster that I spent hours every week doing research, writing and reading and never even reached the stage of writing my dissertaion. That stage takes sevral years of constant writing, editing and honing in on the "chidush" that is the point of the dissertation. the methodology can also not be shaky. It must be solid.
This is not the same as getting a BA at Touro college or using Yeshiva credits at some community college in New York.
This friend is serious work I must add that in the sciences like medicine a pre med student studying chemistry, biology, etc . Ask any one, this takes much time. Once you are in Med school the grind begins and it involves days with as much as 18 hours of study, lectures, labs and clinics. And friend this takes 4-6 years.Would you go to a doctor who slept through his medical lectures? (shiur)I hope not.
The same is true of dentistry and other hard sciences.
Come to think of it Law school involves very long hours too.
I will finish by saying something that the frum world will not like, but many graduate students in doctoral programs and in medicine and medical research spend more hours on the study than the average man in Lakewood. And they have testing and standarsd by which they are held accountable.
Schneur | 06.01.05 - 12:09 pm | #

Avi, drop the emotion, the KGB references and tell us coherently what you mean.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 06.01.05 - 12:09 pm | #

I don’t know how you lumped Rabbi Manis with other p.c. cult-assembling kiruv folks. Most of what Rabbi Manis says is counter culture (like his stance against the feminist movement push of mothers out of the home). He knows an awful lot of psychology (and not from the secular sources – but so on target it is amazing), proving my point that any truth found outside in secular knowledge is actually embedded inside our own sources. So, he believes in homeopathy and is mocked for it – what does that prove – that intellectual snobs tend to give credence to only things honored by mainstream U.S. academia…as opposed to keeping an open mind about knowledge and science. Doctors are actually coming around slowly to acknowledge that a balance between natural healing and drug culture medicine probably is best. That aside, since I’m not that into defending or attacking medical fields of science…I’d like to move on to another comment.

Chana, when davening, was spotted by Eli HaKohen. The Urim Betumim lit up, and he read it as Shikur. Chana had to know who she was, had to have a handle on herself, to be able to say, with certainty, that she was Kosher not Shikur. And then she received the Bracha.
The Besht stepped into the void in an era where folks did not know who they were. He, and the Rebbes who followed him, had to tell people that they were Kosher and how to be that.
Time passed. What should have happened is that as generations passed, the Besht’s progress should have been built upon. Yet, sometime in the past seventy or so years, to a large part, Chassidus restricted people, creating the uneducated masses that the Besht originally attracted. That was the mistake – you see the Besht took the uneducated and brought them to a status of Kosher – and the past few decades of Chassidus took the masses and brought them to the state of uneducated. My father, who led his life akin to a Chassid, yet remained a critic of some aspects, said that just as the Chinese people were wont to bind the feet of the babies so that the feet should always be small, some Chassidic groups were doing the same to the brains of their followers. He protested loudly against it, saying that allowing people the power of thought was important. It seems that many Chassidim were not given a self-awareness of being able to say, I’m this or that, as Chana was able to do. Can you imagine a Chassid negating what their Rebbe said, straight from G-d about their being Shikur? The Chassid so accused would say, since the Rebbe represents G-d, the Rebbe must know me better than I know me and significantly there must be a way I’m Shikur. Chana did not do so, even with the letters on the Urim Betumim lit. She knew who she was, her weaknesses, her strengths. And with that self-knowledge, she was able to access the Divine help she needed. That could have been a strength of Chassidim, to teach each Chassid how to figure out who he/she was and then have them access the Rebbe – but that stopped happening as people just asked to be led around without thought and knowledge on their own, to parrot lines from Seforim without any thoughts into them or understanding of the subject matter.

Many were not taught to use that huge muscle called brain – and don’t think this problem is limited to Chassidus – it was the entire Chinuch system here in America, where children were spoon-fed mantra and dogma, without any empowering tools of how to learn, how to know oneself, how to figure out one’s place in G-d’s world. That is why so many of our youth today get sucked into wanting academic outlet. It is a liberating experience, that first deep thought. And if it comes from a secular angle, many think that Judaism has no thought process to give them Sipuk of using their own reasoning skills. Then, there are those kids who never even get that liberating thought, not even from secular life, because their brain is lacking elasticity due to lack of use – they are stuck of being capable of no deeper thought than that of drugs, party, booze, clothing, body image, mansion house, etc.

Therefore, Chassidus has “come undone”. It is now up to our generation to start again from scratch, unfortunately, of starting at get-go of the Besht, which is to tell each and every person they can have a relationship with G-d. This time, however, let us give them tools to have a deep and meaningful relationship, one where the brain meets its Maker by being put into use for Him.
grose | 06.01.05 - 12:37 pm | #

Conter Culture. One of the things I always liked about Lubavitch was that it was the counter culture to mainstream middle class orthodoxy in most places.It was also counter culture to American culture in terms of dress, beliefs, goals etc.
Chabad rabbis tended to be less glib abd a easier to talk to.
In the mid 1980's that all started to change. In most places outside of New York, Chabad has nicer buildings than the other Orthodo and public relations activities.x groups. Its shluchim are close to the rich machers and the local federation machers.One of its chief goal is fund raising
As a matter of fact ,Chabad has become the orthodox establishment in most places. Just look at Russia where Chabad has become the state religion of Judaism. . The same is true in the US in most places where Chabad is well represented in federation in public activities in PR. etc. Chabad is no longer counter culture.
In some places hip aliented Jews are looking for an alternative to the Chabad rabbi catering to his rich backers and huge edifice and find it - ironically in the local mainstreanm orthodox shul ! Galgal hachozer !
Schneur | 06.01.05 - 12:56 pm | #

Creativity & the "Baal Shem Tov revolution": I think the entire premise/expectation that the multitudes of the Jewish people can turn into original creative thinkers and lofty spiritual seekers is both unrealistic & wrong. Such an outlook smacks of a utopian world view that flies in the face of human nature (G-d’s creation). I always thought that the core message of the Baal Shem Tov’s was quite the opposite – "Jew, no matter how "mediocre" you or others think you to be, your sincere performance of the mitzvos, your heart-felt prayer are near and dear to G-d!" Creativity is important, to be sure. But the kind of creativity discussed here is, by definition, the lot of the few. Those that were endowed by the Creator with such intellectual and spiritual abilities are responsible to strive high and should not "stop at the age of 21". But I would submit to you that such people are few. And they are few among the sheluchim as well – as to be expected! For a simpler person, creativity could mean "translating" chassidus into their own language ( בלשון המשפיעים - אייגענע אותיות ). That brings me to the other topic:
New Ageism & the Mechanical sichos: Translating the ideas contained in chassidus into one’s own language is true when teaching as well. Everything depends on the audience. There are people who are inspired by the "Divine plan for the Jewish people" – and they should be told that. But, sadly, there are many Jews today who speak the language of the New Age and do not feel any emotional connection to the Jewish people. They need to be reached as well. One way of reaching them is translating the ideas contained in chassidus into that language. The test is not in how these lectures sound to Schneur or how often the lecturer mentions "Rabbi, Judaism, Mitzvoth", but whether this actually causes these Jews to take on the observance of mitzvos! And the fact is – it does that. As to the mechanical repetition of sichos (as off-putting as it is), this too finds an audience for whom the strength and power of the ideas contained therein shines through.
Frustration with the above: Dissatisfaction is inevitable for people that attend the wrong lecture hall. A man that belongs in Reb Yoel’s shiur should not expect to be happy with the typical Chabad House speech.
berl, crown heights | 06.01.05 - 1:02 pm | #

berl - isn't the point to get to utopia, i.e. moshiach tzayten! Yes, it is possible for every Jew to access his Borei on the highest level - that is called Yemos HaMoshiach - and the fact that you think most people can't get there further proves that Moshiach has not yet come.
grose | 06.01.05 - 1:06 pm | #

and schneur -
pr claims that the edifice of judaism in russia is lubavitch - but many other groups have made more inroads there than chabad, including agudah, stolin, ner yisroel, skver, rabbi grossman, etc.
don't believe all the hype all the time.
grose | 06.01.05 - 1:08 pm | #

Schneur, your entire "the issue is not study - the issue is understanding" comment is a winner!
berl, crown heights | 06.01.05 - 1:15 pm | #

Thank you Schneur, Berl and thank you Grose. Outstanding!

Berl, no one would expect the utopia. But the issue is very simple. Are we really about shining the light to use your expression or not. And in the Charedi world the answer to this question is clear. The lichtikite is discouraged in any shape or form if not conforming to the narrow dogma. Specifically in Lubavitch this contradiction is real and in sharp contrast to the deceiving rhetoric. Rebbe left volumes and volumes of discourses but he did not leave a system that respects creativity and flashes of light.

I would say emphatically that had the Rebbe spend years within Chabad framework instead of Berlin and Paris, he would have ended up as a 100% outcast. He got lucky to wait it out on the outside.

Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 06.01.05 - 1:40 pm | #

Atlas, time does not permit me to express my thoughts properly on this very important topic. True, the out-casting of people that do not "fit the mold" is real - if subtle. It is only a very unique individual with incredibly think skin that manages to be "different" and "accepted" at the same time in a shtetle-like environment. Most people understand they must choose between the two. The worst thing to do is to expect both! It is the old "what should be" vs. "what is". But, but, but - Lubavitch (both its sheluchim and laity) is not a homogenized group - there are layers upon layers of different social groups and subgroups...
As to creativity – I am not sure what you mean by "no system that respects creativity". You need to elaborate furthert – I thought encouraging people to be mechadesh even in Chassidus (one example, but, for many reasons, a very significant one) was doing just that? Was it not?
berl, crown heights | 06.01.05 - 2:51 pm | #

guravitzer
Are you for real? Can this be in dispute?

shneur

You've done it again!
rebeljew | Homepage | 06.01.05 - 2:53 pm | #

"Chabad has become the orthodox establishment in most places. Just look at Russia where Chabad has become the state religion of Judaism. . The same is true in the US in most places where Chabad is well represented in federation in public activities in PR. etc. Chabad is no longer counter culture.
In some places hip aliented Jews are looking for an alternative to the Chabad rabbi catering to his rich backers and huge edifice and find it - ironically in the local mainstreanm orthodox shul ! Galgal hachozer !"

Gut gezogt Reb Schneur, a gezunt oif dein keppel ! In some places Chassidim (whether Lubavitch or others) have become the complacent establishment and Litvaks are the new (non-establishment, etc.) 'Chassidim' !
Litvak | 06.01.05 - 3:50 pm | #

In some towns in the US the community Kolel has become the alternative to the mainstrean Chabad house .
But in all fairness to Lubavitch it is the price you pay for success.
It just seems to me that the halcyon days of the 1960's with Chabad emissaries sleeping in their cars etc and travelling long distances is history.
Usually the Chabad shluchim are very makpid to have very elegant premises and be very middle class, that includes well dressed and well groomed shluchim .Only time will tell.
Schneur | 06.01.05 - 4:01 pm | #

Schneur - what do you think of the article in the NY Times the other day about mikveh (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/31/nyregion/ 31mikvah.html), with much focus on Lubavitch ? What do you think of the new trend among some to make the mikvah into a fancy, spa-like environment ? Would that be similar to the issue of shluchim using 'new-age' vocabulary to you ?
Litvak | 06.01.05 - 5:01 pm | #

The artice in the Times emphasizes "Ze Keyli v'anveihu"
Yossi | 06.01.05 - 5:44 pm | #

To my fellow Litvak.
I no longer read the Times, because it is a waste of "Times"
But I have read snippets of the article in question.
Years ago when Reb Zalman Shalomi-Schachter was still Traditional he wrote some where that he prefers a real "Maayan" -Spring as a mikveh or other natural water body kosher for a ritual immersion, rather than the antiseptic man made ritualariums sprouting up all over. I agrree with Reb Zalman.
The fancy mikvehs lose the spiritual essence of tahara in their spa like atmosphere.
On the other hand as some Lubavitcher have indicated this may be what some people are looking for.So I congratulate chabad on their fine work in this field.
Yet the same shluchim who do the New age talk would i dare say never initiate a Zalman Schachter type natural immersion pool for their congregants, because the people who belong to the Chabad house (read synagogue) are middle class people with families who like New Age talk , but not the walk.
Schneur | 06.01.05 - 7:20 pm | #

The posuk in Metzora says befeirush that only a zav needs to immerse himself in "Mayim Chayim", yet Schneur opines "The fancy mikvehs lose the spiritual essence of tahara in their spa like atmosphere". hmmmm
Yossi | 06.01.05 - 8:21 pm | #

Note that Schneur wrote "or other natural water body kosher for a ritual immersion", and not only a maayan.

Maybe we can make large mikvahs with fish in them and ocean murals to give the man-made indoor mikvahs a more natural feel.
Litvak | 06.01.05 - 11:46 pm | #

Litvak, we could have a franchise of "theme" mikvaos
Yossi | 06.02.05 - 8:08 am | #

Tzemach:

Coherent?

I was commenting on the original post that the bochurim do not have the "psychological, or philosophical background to internalize any of the chassiduth” and that they can’t “actually think”. The orig post also seemed to imply that secular study somehow is the magic key to becoming an intellectual and G-dly person.

I agree with Schneur that, in some disciplines, a PhD etc may take hours of study a day. However, a Bochur regularly spends that time daily. Let’s be honest. While a degree may afford parnossah, etc, not everyone leaves a Univ. as Einstein.

Furthermore, how many ppl who go to Univ study philosophy etc at an advanced level? With respect to Schneur, the Chem, Bio, and learning how to fill cavities doesn’t make one a Rebbe. There may well be some advantages to the structure of a Univ, as Schneur aptly points out, but praising secular study over Torah learning is wrong.

BTW, I thought I was pretty clear with my “references”. Original thinking will never occur when ppl are “slammed” when they attempt to articulate Torah thoughts. This occurs regularly by closed- minded leaders etc in shuls etc who attempt to preserve their status as the sole recipients of Torah and Chassidus. Sorry, but the hatred and lack of courtesy displayed by these ppl is due to their upbringing in an oppressive regime.

To conclude, those who are interested in original thought have only to apply themselves. The magic formula is hisboninus, learning and davening. As the Torah tells us:
“There is no Beis Hamedrash without innovative thought”
Avi | 06.02.05 - 12:23 pm | #

To Avi . You misread me . I probably was not clear. I did not mean to imply that secular education is a must or even desireable for spiritual UNDERSTANDING.
One can read sifre kodesh or lehavdil study philosophy on owns own and gain knowledge. College was definetely not what i had in mind.
I was just noting that many Charedim think college is nonsense and just 1 big party. It can be (lehavdil so can some Yeshiva xperiences) but collge for the serious student is serious business.
Again I did not mean to imply that university is a must for UNDERSTANDING .
I just think that yedios in philosophy , human mind etc are important in understanding chassiduth. And those are concepts few kids under 17-18 can grasp.
So I am not really arguing with your staements and feelings.
Schneur | 06.02.05 - 5:39 pm | #

Schneur,

Thanks for clarifying. I think we’re basically on the same page.

I think that there are 2 different topics here that you touch on: understanding Chassidus ( which is really understanding G-d) and serious study.

Earnest ppl approach Torah study seriously. Those who do not possibly would benefit from the structure and “degree” system of a Univ. Charedim who think college is nonsense, have a lot of sources to rely on and practicality in the matter, but that is another discussion. As the famous saying goes: “When climbing the ladder of success, be careful that your ladder is leaning against the correct wall”
( BTW, I totally agree that one can “float” through a college or yeshiva and not learn anything. )

To digress a bit, why is there so much emphasis on intellectualism?
We have always had a precedent in the Talmud of amassing Torah facts and endlessly repeating one’s study. ( even if one does not understand what one learns. Even though one may not have actually fulfilled the mitzvah of “Talmud Torah”) This corresponds to the Sinai, Oker Harim debate and it is a valid form of serving G-d .

Either way, as you point out, serious study or amassing facts does not necessarily make one G-dly or understanding. We have many examples of “Novel B’reshus HaTotah” and R. Meir could permit a Sheretz with 150 reasons.

This leads to the second issue: Chassidus. You say that: “yedios in philosophy , human mind etc are important in understanding chassiduth.”

With respect, this implies that kids can’t fully approach Chassidus w/o an additional perspective ( namely philosophy)?

I personally do not see how Socrates, Plato or even Moreh Nevuchim can contribute to adding to ones understanding of Chassidus. For that matter, I do not think that it is necessary to study ancient and other religions to “understand” the evolution and relevance of Judaism. And as far as Midos is concerned, we’ve all heard about the double-standard of Socrates.

But, I guess that this last discussion pivots on how one looks at Chassidus: Haskala or Avoda.

If one’s focus is purely Haskala, one could benefit from Philosophy when attempting to reconcile our beliefs especially regarding Kabalistic concepts. Personally, I would first start with traditional Jewish sources that have already done that, such as Moreh, Itturim etc. (even then, how many adults can actually grasp the true portent of MN ?)

But I believe that, today, the purpose of Chassidus is Avoda. And to fully appreciate and utilize the tool of chassidus in serving G-d (Ahavas HaShem) , one needs personal Avoda in understanding and sympathizing with man and the human condition (Ahavas Yisroel) I think that this is truly the meaning of “from my own flesh I see G-d”. And this is why all the new-age stuff is popular. We don’t need to be gurus. We need to learn how to deal with the basics: relationships, kids etc. And we want to do all this with G-d’s blessing, i.e with some knowledge that what we’re doing “fits” in with G-d’s plans.

Therefore, I think that the frustration expressed in the original post that the kids “ Can’t think”, has nothing at all to do with thinking. It represents the frustration that the youth are not the Chassidim that we want them to be in terms of Avoda ( Which is a mirror of our own frustration at not achieving our own potential and spirituality akin to the famous Chassidim)

What irks me, however, is that many of those who profess to be the definers of Chassidim, do not possess themselves, the basics of Chassidus or even Derech Eretz.. And instead of admitting it, they attack the youth with pompous statements.

So to conclude, Shneur, if you believe Philosophy “rows your boat”, fine. But I believe, that without Ahavas Yisroel one will never grasp Chassidus. For if one’s mind is closed to another Jew, how can it be open to G-d?

Regards,

Avi
Avi | 06.03.05 - 2:41 pm | #

You guys should listen to Rabbi Benyomin Walters teach.

There is someone who puts Chassidus in plain English that people can understand while staying 100% true to its message.

He has a real working understanding of Chabad Chassidus.

He has mp3 cds called "Seder Hishtalshelus" in major Chabad stores.
Reb yid | 03.22.07 - 7:11 am | #