mentalblog.com comments:
"Not much chance of effecting any major changes to Orthodoxy in the current climate."
Well, it could be that one of the reasons for the "current climate" is close to 100% literacy among people like Google Hador and his fellow bloggers. literate frum jews who lack any depth of judaic knowledge make it virtually impossible for the rabbis to reform judaism. Googlei Hador looking behind the shoulders of Gedolei Hador, noticing, commenting, analyzing and otherwise interfering with the process , basicly make the job very difficult. Blessed are the times when the rabbis could openly discuss, comment on and predict the behaviour of ameratzim, even PUBLISH the discussion, without any fear that the amhooretz will ever read it!
analyzing and otherwise interfering with the process
what process?
"what process" - reforming judaism. rabbis of old could do it without fear of critisim from the masses or misinterpretation, as the masses did not have an access to the rabbinic thought and literature.
I am not certain it is that simple. Do you mean to say that Baal Shem Tov could not have pulled it now? You mean to say the Rebbe was not a revolutionary? Was there a precedent in the Jewish history that illustrates the "process"?
i do not think it is that simple, either.
my point concerned halochoh more than anything else, and there are plenty of examples of modifying the law and adjusting it for the masses, and differentiating between a talimd chochom and an amhootetz. (talimd chochom, BTW was anyone who could read and understand that published discussion) many published meforshim and poskim discussed the best way to present holocho or a philosophical deyah to the masses, so as not to confuse the people in regard to the law or a theological belief. for me it is a very vibrant process of constant alteration? reform? improvement?
Don't forget the freeze started from the top from the retched Hungary and Chasam Soifer, not from the bloggers...Today it is Rabbi Eliyashiv and Co that promotes the most rigid brand of religion not the masses. To say that R. Eliyashiv is afraid of change because he will be criticized is to turn the argument upside down.
the Baal Shem Tov could have probably pulled it now as well, i don't know, i just said that the book literacy of the masses with little substance does not make it easy. As for the Rebbe, i do think he was a revolutionary. and an important aspect of his genious was the ability to squeeze in as much substance as possible in pashtus, thus making it possible for the masses to partake from the real toyre.
i plead ignorance on matters concerning "Rabbi Eliyashiv and Co", but it is just possible that the masses (at least partially) make him (them) to do that. in a liberal envirnoment, where literate and educated lay people feel on par with Eliyashivs, the Eliyashivs feel compelled to impose the most rigid brand of judaism.
ahhhh, just forget it, i don't know what i am saying.
The interplay between Judaism as a theocracy and public-oriented (which incidentally means PR oriented too, ואכ"מ ) is a delicate one. A king has total and complete authority, once he has a critical mass of support base; failing that, we say אין מלך בלא עם. The Gemoro in Berachos records for posterity an incident in which a Nosi was deposed(!!) because he ran his melucha in too high-handed a manner.
(Incidentally, this was the ideological basis of the American claim to independence; cf the preamble to Declaration thereof).
The question becomes: who (and what kind of "סחורה") constitutes support. Traditionally, owing to the reasons outlined by faruq, the support base was people who were literate and intelligent, the two being interdependent much more closely than today.
When the voter pool, so to speak, changes, then so does the style of campaigning and requisites to become a "Godol Hador". Today's Jewish "Oilem" is indeed different, as faruq made clear. קנאות ranks especially high among these people; it serves the desire not to have to get involved in questions that they have neither the capacity nor the moral courage to address seriously. ("I don't know" is also at times an acceptable reply, and for the most part this particular crowd is loath to use it).
This is a general problem, that has had its reprecussions in every sphere of Judaism (and the world in general too). The elokisten (how I hate to use the word!) issue is merely another example.
What is better; the way it was, or more Jews putting on Tefillin and learning Torah each day, with all the fringe cons?
What is better; the way it was, or more Jews putting on Tefillin and learning Torah each day, with all the fringe cons?
770 bochur, your logic leaps are either logical or illogical.
"What is better; the way it was, or more Jews putting on Tefillin and learning Torah each day, with all the fringe cons?"
bochur, better/worse analysis is a separate issue altogether.
btw, why is it that better/worse evaluation has become such an important part of our religious standards.
i suggest we impose a temporary moratorium on better/worse, and replace it with good/bad, and see what happens.
770 bochur, your logic leaps are either logical or illogical.
TA, please clarify.
At issue is dogma and stagnation of the Jewish thought. I fail to see how it relates to the "more Jews putting on Tefilin and learning Torah each day". The implication being that the current state helps more Jews to put of Tefilin. This is not only illogical but untrue.
worth thinking about
Guilty as charged. I did not make myself clear enough. Actually, I did not make myself clear at all.
My closing question was - and remains - predicated on the assumption that המעשה הוא העיקר. Which is (part of) why Judaism is not only a religion for intellectuals, but recognizes - and demands - of each one to do his best to fulfill G-d's will.
Given that at any given period, the "elite", the thinkers did not constitute 100% of the Jewish people (nor even a majority), that means that something else must be the bottom line. Chassidus provides one answer: המעשה הוא העיקר. In פועל ממש, the differences between Jews exists to a much lesser extent; hence the emphasis on Maaseh.
This idea is expressed in Chassidus numerous times; the most striking example that comes to mind at the moment is the Rebbe's ביאור on the uniqueness of Simchas Torah, in which we do not sit down and learn the whole day, but rather get up and dance. The reason: again, because in being "feet" for the Torah, all Jews are equal.
Obviously, this dogma is what naturally led to the general Mitzvah campaigns that the Rebbe initiated; the absence of this understanding is what made it so repulsive to many others. (At least, that was the best reason they could come up with.)
This is also the uniqueness of our generation, for better and for worse. Quality barely matters; there is no quality. What we basically have is only the basic מעשה בפועל and as for creative thinking, frankly I don't think we have too many truly creative thinkers these days. Blame it on anything you want; ירידת הדורות, whatever. The intellectual dulling and explosion of (albeit very shallow) knowledge go hand in hand with each other; to question which came first is to ask which came first, the chicken or the egg.
Which led me to ask; is the one worth the other, at least to the extent in which things are actually playing out?
I don't think that after this last article, things are any clearer. I am tempted to quote faruq: "just forget it, i don't know what i am saying".
Except that I think I do...
770 bochur, "06.21.05 - 8:52 pm" your posts are interesting and thought-provoking, it is too bad that i feel obligated to ignore all your posting that was written during sedorim. at 8:52pm you should be in zal learning chasidus. please post after 9:30pm and before 7:30am (8:00am? i forget)
faruq, I revoke my earlier and, as turns out, very premature compliment to you. you have NO clue which part of the world the "770 bochur" posts from and are truly a presumptuous potz!
berl, beeeeeeee
berl, "very premature compliment "- next time think before you say or write something. "presumptuous potz"-lighten up, just ignore the potz. and do not waste your very elegant writing on me, i will not get caught in verbal wars with you, and you will not be able even to ignore me. Cheers!
faruq, a chassidisher response would be: יע, בין איך טעקע א פאץ and an apology to 770 bochur would not hurt either. :)
טאקע
770 bochur, i apologise, please do not get offended, it WAS a joke.
berl,
"chassidisher response" - i am not a chosid
"I am not a chosid" as in "I do not feel I am worthy of the title" or as in "I am not one and do not wish to be one"?
sadly, both
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