mentalblog.com comments:
But Rav Heller would not HaRav Heller had he not learned in the standardized Yeshiva of Brisk! keposhut!
Rav Heller is a Ruzhiner einikel, so he didn't start from skratch and we already covered the subject of learing "despite". The fact that he came to Chabad means that he found his former way lacking.
exellent post.
I have always wondered how is it, that the very same people who rally against any kabboloh learning by the "unprepared", encourage the pilpul system for young bachurim, ensuring that they leave the walls of the yeshiva ammei hooretz deoraisa, some not even full-fledged members of the min hamidaber (no having a single language they can express coherent thoughts in). That Lubavitch yeshivas copied that system in the main simply blows my mind! Ask any Rosh Yeshiva in Lubavitch what happened to following the method of learning Talmud outlined in kuntres eitz hachaim. A shoulder shrug will be the usual answer. Verabim hallolim hippilu.
Tzemach,
Sorry that you took out time from learning gemara, the ultimate truth handed down to us by hashem, and wasted your time reading the Rayat'z stories which, according to modern historians, are historical fiction. I believe that R. Chaim Lieberman had the same opinion regarding the Sefer HaZichronos of the Rayatz.
Yehuda, it sounds to me like you have confused the Sefer Hazichreineis with the Cherson Geniza (its authenticity was, indeed, disputed but the Previous Rebbe held it to be authentic). You might want to be careful when making such callous statements about tzaddikim veKedeishei Eliein. Additionally had you yourself taken some time to read those stories – all of which are based on the recollections of various members of Beis HoRav and recorded by the Previous Rebbe throughout his life – you would stand a far better chance of having you head screwed on right…
yehuda, do you have as mush trouble with my first example as you have with the second. Please explain your opinion about the first example. Otherwise it would appear that you are selectively biased. Or forget about the examples and tell us what is your take on the seder issue.
The Beis Medrash of old, and its devotion to unstructured learning, was fine when the Beis Medrash/Yeshiva system catered to the the elite of Jewish Europe. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with today's Yeshiva system, which is meant to cater to all Orthodox youth.
Any attempt to compare the curricula, syllabi or methods of the classical yeshiva of over 70 years ago to a yeshiva of today, or to base the latter on the former, is therefore inherently ridiculous and criminal from a chinuch standpoint. It is akin (l'havdil) to comparing an Ivy League University Advanced English Literature course of 200 years ago to a lower-level 10th grade English class in a low-level inner-city public High School.
yehupetz, is it not just as criminal to have these "inner-city-level” students pretend they are ready for a Brisker chakkirois when they should really be learning the basics of Jewish literacy?
there is also a thread on this blog about Ivy League University Advanced English Literature students confined to a lower-level 10th grade English class in a low-level inner-city public High School.
It seams that stifling of the elite is as criminal as not educating the populace. In fact there is an argument to be made that without the elite the culture in general stagnates and can’t move forward. This seems elemental.
B"H
Tzemach, this may be somewhat related to your discussion:
...Having raised this point, I will take this opportunity to alert the public about the fact that in yeshivah circles it has not been customary to learn the “Rules of Talmudic Study”; not knowing the rules, questions such as the previous one may pop up.
My teachers also did not teach me the “Rules of Talmudic Study,” which I first saw in the Vilna Shas, at the end of tractate Berachos, several years after I was already learning on my own. When I perused the rules I found that in addition to outlining the well-known rules of Talmud, e.g., “In a dispute between R. Yehudah and R. Meir the halachah follows R. Yehudah” or, “The halachah is according to Shmuel in monetary matters,” etc., they also outline the approach to proper and systematized study, which should be taught as an introduction to Talmud study. Sorry to say, no attention is given to this.
When I searched for an explanation as to why these rules are not studied in the yeshivos I was given two answers: (1) “They are printed at the end of tractate Berachos, which laymen study. It is not one of the traditional yeshivah tractates.” (2) “We rely on the clear thinking of the students to find the right way to study. Why teach rules which were not made at the time of the Talmud but st n milch 1 stor d:~tf~?tw
Well, reality catches up with us, you see the results of not teaching the Rules of Study; it brings ignorance in the proper logical structure of a question.
from :
Sichos In English
Excerpts of Sichos delivered by The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson
Vol. 25 — Shevat-Nissan, 5745
Shabbos Parshas Mishpotim
Parshas Shekalim
25th Day of Shevat, 5745
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=c...+yishmael&
hl=en
Also see Meister Plan by Tuvia Meister http://www.artscroll.com/Books/meih.html
He says there that when he was in a BT Yeshiva theymostly taught Talmud he felt he can't get good understanding of Talmud before he learns the whole Mishna he asked the teacher why do they teach Talmud to begginers . The teacher said that the reason is to keep people challenged so they don't lose interest and drop out of the program . Tuvia then asked permission to study individually starting with Mishna which he was granted. In less than 20 years he learned much Torah (including Mishna Tosefta Braita Bavli Yerushalmi Midrrashim, Rishonim etc.) based on the program he created for himself while working as a doctor, check it out.
As to your arguement I think you have a point but as some commenters pointed out above each system of learning has it's own advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantages of the system you describe is that it is not apropriate for most people besides few "geniouses" such as yourself.:-)
Berl,
Have you seen/heard Berl Levin's remarks about the Frierdiker Rebbe's uncertainty about the Cherson geniza (expressed in a letter to a certain professor)?
Apparently there was a letter that Berl Levin found, where the PR states openly that he has misgivings about it. When Berl showed it to the Rebbe, the Rebbe told him that it was not worth reopening that debate, and it would be better just to leave it alone.
I'm not all that bothered by the whole thing, but it is a strange detail in Lubavitcher history. It seems to me that the Rebbe Rashab felt bad for Gourary, since he spent a small fortune to but the stuff -- so he validated it. The subsequent Rabbeim seem to have accepted the manuscripts based on this validation, but I don't really understand why it was "canonized" into the Chabad lexicon with all the questions surrounding it.
CE,
I have to admit ignorance on the details of this subject. I would like to see this letter for myself, though. I do remember hearing/reading years ago something about part of the geniza being authentic, part - forgery.
Regarding the Rebbe Rashab authenticating the geniza because he "felt bad" for Gourary - I never heard of such a thing and I do not believe this for one second! Sounds like something made up by a very perverted & deeply cynical mind that is uncomfortable with the idea of the Rebbe Rashab possibly making a bibliographical error, but has no problem suspecting him of h"v total lack of integrity!
And was the system that produced Einstein the same as the one that produced Galileo?
What an absurd argument.
Berl,
First of all, it was sof yomov of the Rebbe Rashab.
Secondly, the world was (and remains) quite shocked that the Rebbe Rashab validated the geneiza, when it is generally considered to have blatantly obvious problems. It is shocking for the Rebbe Rashab to have been mistaken about it, as it is said that individuals far far beneath The Rebbe in greatness recognized the obvious flaws there.
It seems illogical that the Rebbe didn't see these flaws. Most people outside Crown Heights tend to believe that it is a possibility that the Rebbe may have validated it because R' Gourary spent so much money - not because he lacked integrity, but because he didn't expect the geniza to become such a prominent part of Chabad history.
As for me, I don't know what to make of it and I don't spend too much energy on this issue. I obviously don't KNOW what the truth of the matter is, but all possibilities seem equally plausible to me.
And I just want to say "OUCH" for this one:
"Sounds like something made up by a very perverted & deeply cynical mind"
Although I didn't make the theory up, I guess I should feel included since I don't oppose the theory... "Very perverted & deeply cynical?" I dunno - if you say so.
Would you accept "somewhat perverted and overly cynical?" :-)
CE, come on, I do not see how you found yourself included in my words AT ALL.
Wellllll, I did say "It seems..." That could imply that I subscribe to the theory.
Actually, I don't propose that the theory is fact - I have no way to know - but I do think it is a legitimate possibility (at least as legitimate as any other).
CE, Just btw, what do you think of the famous story told by the Previous Rebbe how he - as a young lad – composed and a “new” maamar by the Rebbe Maharash; and how the Rebbe Rashab wanted to celebrate the discovery of the hereto unknown maamar by his father; and how the Previous Rebbe came to his father begging for a tikkun for the “crime”… [see Likkutei Dibburim]?
I think that you are talking about something completely different.
In that case you are talking about a maamar chassidus, which in all likelihood was a profound and true maamar. Here we are talking about allegedly gross errors in fact.
OK CE,
Perhaps someone has the above-mentioned letter by the Previous Rebbe and it can clarify the issue. Besides, this is a parenthetical discussion in this thread.
The letter is in the hands of R' Sholom-Ber Levin - I imagine you see him more often than I do. Please check with him (I would be interested in anything you can find out from him about it).
Sorry for the tangent.
Berl,
I read through the Sefer Hazichronos and many other writings of the Rayatz during my teens. Although I believed in Lubavitch at that time, I could not escape the feeling that I was reading historical fiction. How could one repeat verbatim a conversation that occured 200 years ago?
There is an article from Rapaport-Albert about the reliabity if the Rayatz's histriography. Just search Rambi, and you'll find it. I would be interested in hearing from Shneur about this.
Regarding the Cherson geniza letters, any novice can see that they are fabricated. Lubavitch has to accept it because they believe that the Rasha"b was infallible. I have no problem accepting that the Rasha"b was mistaken, and that does not detract from his greatness in my eyes.
Tzemach,
By "first example" you mean that the Rosh Yeshiva didn't let you learn mishnayos instead of listening to the pilpul? He was correct because the yeshiva years are the time when one can learn beiyun and gain a deeper understanding of torah. Mishnayos can be finished after one leaves yeshiva and gets a job. That was the Rebbe's opinion also. He brought down in one of the sichos that if one doesn't learn as deep as on can, that is also called bitul torah.
Yehuda writes: How could one repeat verbatim a conversation that occurred 200 years ago?
Do you really seriously think that such is the level of historic fidelity expected form any stories? Dialog accuracy? I guess all sippurei tzadikim are worthless-waste-of-time-bobe-maises, if judged by that standard.
Berl,
An accurate history should not put quotations in someone's mouth if they are not accurate. That's OK for a historical novel but not for history.
Anyway scholars claim that the Rayatz's picture of the beginning of the chassidus was influenced by Dubnov and that school, i.e. the history that was current when the Rayatz came of age.
Yehuda, I was 16 when I read the Sefer Hazichreineis for the first time. Even at that age, I did not for a moment imagine that the dialog replicas were presented in the book as stenographer’s record. To hear this expectation from a grown man is just shocking! As to the genesis of the chassidus outlined in the book - it would be interesting to hear more specifics. For instance, what specific historic claim made in the book is disputed? On what grounds? By whom? (You can provide a link, if you wish – I did not find the article you referred to earlier).
Also remember, most of the book deals with the history of Beis HoRav and tells stories about various unknown "simple Jews". What do these subject have to do with the verifiable historic record?
Perhaps if the posters, Yehuda in particular, learned less Gemora they would have known how to stay on the subject and not get sidetracked in unrelated minutia. A prime example of krum logic.
"mutav syihia shota kol yomov val yaseh aztmo rosho sha'ah achas lifnei hamokom"
I would rather be a fool all my live and not learn less gemara. Tzemach, thou speaketh apikorsus.
TA,
I apologize for any responsibility that I had in steering the conversation off the road. But...
Berl,
I have no desire to converse here with Yehuda, but since you asked about the questionable statements...
I believe that the Cherson geneiza is the basis and source for the legendary activities of the (Pre-Baal Shem Tov) Nistorim and the stories regarding Chaim Shimon; they are said to include most of what we are told about the Baalei Shem (R' Adam & R' Eliyahu), and quotes lending support to the Maggid's greatness as heir to the BS"T.
I have no actual first-hand knowledge of what does or does not come from there, but this is what I have been told by multiple sources.
I have also been told that the story of Shimon HaKofer comes from there, but for some reason I don't think that is true.
(Sorry - I forgot R' Yoel Baal-Shem above)
"Anyway scholars claim that the Rayatz's picture of the beginning of the chassidus was influenced by Dubnov and that school, i.e. the history that was current when the Rayatz came of age."
Very scholary. Which scholars claim this? In the intro. to reshimas shimon hakoifer, the FR rails against dubnov and his ilk in very harsh terms.
I don't have time to docule check but I think that it's here:
Ada Rapaport-Albert's "Hagiography with Footnotes:
Edifying Tales and the Writing of History in Hasidism" in History and
Theory, Studies in the Philosophy of History Beiheft 27 (Weslyan
University).
I wish that someone could get Schneur to comment on this. He knows more about this than I do. I would like to here what an intelligent chosid has to say about this.
excuse the previous typos, but there is not way for me to edit what was sent already.
The problem with our Yeshivas is the stress to the exclusion of all else of Talmud -Gemora. Since Dr. Lamm has been kashered by Chabad of greater Boston, , I will use his expression :the "Pan-Halachic" nature of present day orthodoxy (expresed in his wonderful and moving hesped for the late Dr. A.J. Heschel of JTS, in the pages of SHMA magazine))
After grade 5-6 Chumsh and Rashi play only a secondary role.Forget about commentators like Abrabanel, Malbim , Ibn Ezra and many others.
Lets examine subjects not taught or hardly touched upon : Neviim especially the great Prophets the Neviim Achronim. Does anyone here understand T'ilim or Mishle ? How about the Tefillos especially the special ones like piyyutim and slichos. Do we have any idea what we say ? Midrash is hardly taught from text only passed on through oral "stories". Most yeshiva bachurim do not know of Midrash hagadol or Lekach tov or even looked at the Tanchuma.Halacha, most kids and Yeshiva students are ignorant of most areas of Jewish law especially those dealing with ethica sexuality, and inter personal relations. Do we learn how to go through a halchic responsa , on how itis constructed and the rules of judgement in Halacha. A tad of Mishna Berurah is all thats really taughtin mostYeshivoth. What about the shulchan aruch about opening it up and just seeing how its constructed , the same is true of the Tur. The rebbe had a wonderful idea of studying the YAd , yet few yeshiva bachurim are familiar with it and that only in its relationship to the Brisker Teyres. Lets move on hashkafa or Philosophy books like the Moreh , Albo, Kuzari are hardly touched in a class room seting. Modern day Sages like rav Kuk, Rabbiner Hirsch, Dr. Isaac Breuer, Dr. Nathan Birbaum are ignored in their attempts at dealing with jews living in an emancipated society. Jewish history from the destruction of Bayis Rishon until the 1950's is never taught and many Yeshiva students have no idea which cam first Chanuka or Purim.What does the average bachur know about the Holocaust , about Tach VeTat, about Jewish life in Spain , about "Ashkenaz" and the development of Jewish life in Poland.Can a yeshiva bachur tell you who R. manasseh Ben Israel was ?
Lets not forget Hebrew language, Aramaic language, Hebrew literature and some basic exposure to the Zohar and other jewish mystical literature.
I am sure I have forgotten many areas. Can a yeshiva bachur write a letter in classical Hebrew ???
So we spend our time in yeshiva with Gemora. Thats good and well for thoe who are interested in the "law" but most of us do not have legal minds and studying Ayn Yaakov, Mishnayoth, and 2 hours daily of Gefes would suffice for the Mitzvo of talmud Torah.
I know this is an "appikorshishe " idea, but its time that we adopted Chanoch lenaar al Pi Darcho.
If my curriculum were adopted for those not seeking talmudic excellence we would have a thinking vital and energized orthodoxy.People would know of why they are Jews. Anxiety about Halachic observance would decrese and we would all be happier Jews
schneur - beautiful and all true
Schneur,
Now your talking! Boy, are you are singing my song. The problem is, nobody is doing that (yet). In the meantime all we have are a collection of bad choices... But, if you want to start it, I'm with you all the way - where do I enroll my kids?
Schneur,
"So we spend our time in Yeshiva with gemora. That's good and well for those who are interested in the "law"
but most of us do not have legal minds, and studying eyn yakov, mishnayoth and two hours daily of gefes would suffice the mitzva of talmud torah":
But the Alter Rebbe writes in Hilchos TT C 2, H1: "...חייב ללמד את עצמו ...כל התורה שבכתב ושבע"פ כולה ...חייב לשלש זמן למידתו שבכל יום ויום שליש במקרא שליש במשנה שהן הלכות פסוקות...וברייתות ומימרות האמוראים ...ובזהז גם הלכות פסוקות של פסקי הגאונים הפוסקים כמו הטור והשע והגהותיו בכללל משנה יחשבו. ושליש בתלמוד המבאר טעמי ההלכות שבמשניות וברייתות ומימרות האמוראים ובזהז גם בספרי הפוסקים הראשונים המבארים טעמי ההלכות פסוקות שפסקו הטור והשע כמו הראש ובי .......לד"ה בתחילת לימודו של אדם בין במקרא בין במשנה בין בתלמוד ..לא די לו בלמוד פעם א ושתים ושלש...פעמים רבות...והמשנה והתלמוד צריך לחזור בכפלי כפליים יותר מהמקרא....אך אדם כזה מאחר שאינו יכול ללמוד דת הרבה מאד. צריך שיהיה כל לימודו בלימוד המביא לידי מעשה שהן הלכות הצריכות לכל אדם לידע אותן לקיים המצות כהלכתן וליזהר ממכשולים באיסורים ...רוב א"ח כמעט כולו ומיעוט יאר"ד ומעט באה"ע וחו"מ ....
See here what fits and what does fit in your curriculum.
(btw: The Alter Rebbe does mention that one is mechuyov to earn the whole Tanach).
B"H
Tzemach,
By "first example" you mean that the Rosh Yeshiva didn't let you learn mishnayos instead of listening to the pilpul? He was correct because the yeshiva years are the time when one can learn beiyun and gain a deeper understanding of torah. Mishnayos can be finished after one leaves yeshiva and gets a job. That was the Rebbe's opinion also. He brought down in one of the sichos that if one doesn't learn as deep as on can, that is also called bitul torah.
yehuda | 07.18.05 - 4:34 pm | #
I think you are quoting only part of the Rebbe's opinion , He also says there that person should start from the basics even if they are too simple for him for example one should 1st study Rashi on Chumash before learning the Ramban etc.
To T.L. Thanks for reading my comments and taking the time to respond in such an informed manner.
Firstly no yeshiva today follows what the Alter rebbe states ,as they study Gemora 95% of the day. Clearly halacha is hardly studied and after a certain point Mikro is ignored.
I think this is even true in the Lubavitcher yeshivoth where halacha is not studied.Correct me if I am mistaken.
Next the last line of the quote you so kindly bring is crucial . In todays society the subjects I outline in my course are the ones for people who need to remain frum and understand what they are doing.Limmud hamevi lidei maase. This is what "my" program is all about.
In old days much of what I propose was picked up at home in the street and in the shul , so Cheder and Yeshiva (and only a few lucky ones went to yeshiva) concentrated on Gemore. But its very different today.
Two more points: if a person wishes to indulge in "shivti" one could finish this program and go off to Israel for 24 months and probably pick up as much Gemore as spending 6 years in some Brooklyn yeshiva.
Finally my father attended Cheder , Yeshiva ketana and private tutoring in Kurentitz a Chassidishe shtetl until age 16 and among subjects they studied were Hebrew language, Neviim, history , the meaning of the Machzor and Siddur. and the like. If nafsho chasko beTorah after age 13 , one went to TTL in Vilna and studied there as my father did for a short while.
There are obviously different educational philosophies like the Alter rebbe, Maharal, Reb Chaim Volozhiner etc.
If what I propose is ignored how are we to understand our tefillos, understand Nach , know halachos etc. as once we work little serious study is usually possible. The Tore is a "big tent" and I personally believe that one of the key messages of the BESHT was that there are different manners of Dveikus (some not even involving books !) Gemora is not the sole way of reaching devaikus. This of course is the ultimate apikorsus in our new post Beshtian orthodoxy. Saying Tillim with understanding and feeling is a gevaldike madraige too !
In my opinion most of or yeshivashe Lomdim with their Chilukim and Shnei Dinim don't have the bechnoth of the old type Yid who said T'illim in shul be-bechiyoth with tears !
Reb Schneur,
I agree with you that no one seems to follow exactly the recipe given by the Alter Rebbe.
And I personally think i agree with some of what you say.
But some of what you say is not necessarily related exclusively to the curriculum.
For instance, what you end of with:
The bechinoth of the types of yidden who make shney dinim and the type of yid who says tehillim with tears:
This maybe is not so much related to the "curriculum" of Limud HaTorah as to the emphsasis (or lack thereof) of avodas Hashem Belev, and perhaps more importantly something that the entire system has failed (unrelated to the "Curriculum") a pashtus and a simple lifestyle that had a simple yid from days gone imbued with "shem shomayim shgour bepiv" where there was a special relationship with der Aybershter in your everyday life.
Maybe that wasan issue of the times, where there was the nissayon of aniyooss and people connected to der eyebershter with a simplicity and EMESSKEYT that is missing today.
And this is not necessarily connected with the amount of time one dedicates to the "curriculum" but with the how one luives his life every ordinary moment given by the beshefer.
I can feel what you're saying and sense (not by my person al experiences, but) by my grandfathers obm life where he was a plain poshuter yid coming from poland and lives his life working hard with a simplicity andehrlichkeyt that is found by people who say tehillim with tears in their eyes.
Ulekeshetedakdek: You may see that even by groups that do have additional materials in thier curriculum (be it sifrey mussor or sifrey chassidus) you will still not see (as often) tears in their tehillim saying.
Back to the material:
Bottomline: WE need a system allows the child to know "kol haTorah kulah" Shebiktav VeSheBal Peh.
WRT to Halacha: I must say that there lots of people (especially amongst those from Hungary) that put an emphasis in limud Hahalocho. The learn alot Tur and Bes Yossef Hilchos Shabbos Hilchos Tahara.
Also: those who stay for an extended period in Kolel use some of their time to perfect themselves in the study of Halocho.
WRT to History: Although i do feel that it should be emphasized, i did not see this quoted in the Alter Rebbe's Halocho. (unless you theorize that is "meyvi lidey maasse" as it could be possibly be, but the Alter Rebbe did not mention this unlike sifrey mussar kaboloh and chassidus as we will quote soon be"h).
Now: I did not quote another Halocho that seems to be saome basis for the "minhog hooylom" (not minhog oyssos gehenom etc.):
פרק א' הלכה ו':
"...ובזהז שכל התורה שבעפ היא כתובה לפנינו אצ לשכור מלמד לבנו שילמדנו כל התורה שבעפ. אלא שילמדנו היטב בתלמוד ברוב המקומות, גם בהלכות וסגויות העמוקות עם רוב הפוסקם ראשונים ואחרונים ויעמידנו על עיון ההלכה למעשה שיוכל לעיין בעצמו ללמוד ולהבין ולהורות כל הלכה למעשה מתוך עיון בתלמוד ופוסקים ראשוניםואחרונים, ואזי יוכל הבן ללמוד בעצמו כל התלמוד והפוסקים לידע כל ההלכות של תורה שבעפ....":
So: Limud Hahalocho as envisioned by the AR is to be hand in hand with limud hagmoroh: Girssa (or bekius) and a limud Beiyun in the "deep sugyoss" (sounds familiar?) with the poskim.
This is the TOOLS to know the Torah! (no other shortcut with "lectures" and "studies" or other methods) Learn TALMUD! This is the only way to lern properly Halocho to know Torah She Baal Peh.
Obiously this is for those who will end (or should end up) lerning to learn and know Torah She Baal peh as prescribed in Halocho!
"...וכן כל התנך ודרשות וההגדות. ולכן לא נהגו עכשיו ללמד להתינוק כל התנך שבימיהם רק התורה לבדה כי סומכים שילמוד בעצמו לכשיגדיל!" ) an assumption that does not necessatrily work today.
But: even for those who are not able to have this rigorous schedule of knowing kol hatorah requires a rigourous learning in "rov orach hachayiom....KOL HALOCHO BRUOROH BETAAMEHOH" "MEHATALMUD UMEFORSHOV OY HROSH...." (PEREK 2 HALOCHO 9).
Also perek 3 halcoho4: for those that did not reach the level leraning the Torah SHEBP from "Talmud&POSKIM" (a bedieved nussach in the AR) and can only understand "halochos pssukoys" he should affix the times for torah study "ךימוד המביא לידי מעשה בלבד שהוא חובה על הכל דהיינו השולחן ערוך מהלכות הצריכות לכל אדם לידע בלי שאלת חכם, ולימוד בהגדות ומדרשים או ספרי מוסר שנבנו על מדרשי חכמים שדבריהם דברי קבלה ולא על שכל אנושי...".
The gistin the words of AR (not mine) is: That for an extensive learning enviosioned for a large group of people that ould attempt to enable them the knowledge of the Whole Torah requires that most of the tine that one spends with a teacher be spent with Shas & Poskim.
NOw: with regards to the study of subjects "pardess" (and also thoser that bring to Ahavas and Yirass Hashem) the Alter REbbe is very adamant:
Perek 1 Halocho 4: "...שכלנפש צריכה לתקונה לעסוק בפרדס כפי מה שיהא יכולה להשיג ולידע וכל מי שיכול להשיג ולידע הרבה ונתעצל ולא השיג וידע אלא מעט צריך לבוא בגלגול עד שישג וידע כל מה שאפשר לנשמתו להשיג מידיעת התורה הן בפשטי הלכות הן ברמזים ודרשות וסודות כי כל מה שנשמתו יכולה להשיג ולידע מידיעת התורה זהו תיקום שלי
Schneur:
I was anxiously waiting for what you had to say about the the academic opinion on the Rayatz' zichronos. Unfortunately you disappointed me instead with your diatribe against limud gemara.
The main limud of klal yisroel is gemora (and meforshim including halacha). Nothing else has the same authority. The gaonim write that "ein keitz ldrashos", that if we understand drush then that's fine, otherwise we just abandon them. Gemara was the primary limud since rav ashi's time through the middle ages, recent history till this very day. Those who did otherwise, were abberations.
Limud chassidus is not accepted as necessary by the overwhelming majority of frum jews and cannot be considered in integral part of tora learning. The Rambam writes the reason for the authority of talmud bavli is because it was accepted by most of klal yisroel. The converse should also be true.
Eastern Europe was the beacon of light for torah. Those countries that instituted the torah im derech eretz method did so because the population was mostly am haaratzim. The ignorance of torah in Germany was mind boggeling, as I heard in detail from Rabbonim who grew up there.
Schneur, please enlighten us to the issue with the Rayatz' historical writings.
I am thinking about the Rayaatz's work and how to process it . So I need to pass on it JUST NOW.Otherwise anything I say will just be a expression of politics.
If you read my comments carefully , no where do I urge the abandonment of Torah shebaal peh. On the contrary I urge daily shiurim in Gefes, Mishnayith ,and Ein Yaakov for all. . As well as shiurim in Mishna Berurah or Shulchan Arukh Horav, The Yad of the Rambam and even study of the Shut literature and of the Tur Shulchan aruch itself. This should take 3 hours daily be'erech. Beyond that time of 3 hours in my opinion we are in a losing cause in terms of the average American teen ager and his attention span.I believe most psychologists and educators would bsck me up on this point too. We need to reach out and teach Nach, Siddur, hashkofa, Parsha with Malbim and Ramban , and Musar in additon we need to teach 3-4 hours weekly of Jewish history and Toldos gedole israel.By the way study of Chumash and Nach with meforshim like Rashi, Ramban , Malbim, Abrabanel and others is considered Torah She baal Peh as it is based on Midrashim literature and Medrah Agadda.
In Europe and in Lithuania most frum boys did not go to a yeshiva or cheder etc after age 12 or so they went to work, so the curricululm at the Yeshivoth was designed for the few Metzuyanim who went on to study until marriage or so, today all Orthodx kids spend at least 5-7 years in Yeshivoth after Bar Mitzvah.
I have seen hundreds of guys going to yeshivos like Torah Vedas RJJ MTJ until age 18-19e tc and knowing nothing (they can hardly make a brocha correctly) because all that was taught was gemora and they as kids not interested in legal argumentation were taught nothing else.(Perhaps our great rebbes (teachers) could come up with a derech to show our teen agers that the shakla Vetarye is the Word of GOD, not simple legal gymnastics and hair splitting but at the present outside of the Isreali Mamlachti dati schools no one to my knowledge ahas even tried this method and its hardIn fact many of the greatest learners have probably forgotten the divine nature of their studies that why chassiduth came along as a reminder of whta its all about !))
Are any of my correspondents of this thread ready to assume the spiritual achrayus for the thousands of kids in our yeshivas Modern ,Centerist, Chassidic (including Chabad and satmar) and American yeshivash who go through 6-7 years of post bar mitzva schooling who are bright and smart but not into leagl argumentation hence they learn zip about Yiddishkeit. At least our MO schools and the Chassidic schools make some accomodations for these kids but what of the main stream yeshivos. So what if a bachur can not hack the Brisker shtei dinim or the like should he be doomed to waste his years in yeshiva,. this same bachur would or could love studying Chimach with Ramban and Ibn Ezra and become the next great parshan of Orthodoxy or at least a great elementary school teacher !Or he could enjoy halacha lemaase and even become agood practical More Zedek or shochet , or if creativity is his interest fields like chazzanus and safrut could be his game.I concede that I liked studying Nach, enjoyed parsha, liked the Kittzur love Ein Yaakov(I loved jewish hsitory Toldos Gedole israel,Minhoge Israel etc) but I lose interest in shakla ve Taarya after an hour or so and I was like this when i was 13 too.I think there are many others like me in every generation.
Cahanoch lenaar al pi darko !
Finally we are now entering a new era of Kiruv kerovim. we all know that in all streams of orthodoxy we are losing hundreds of teens each year. The MO community is bleeding , the Yeshiva world is being hard it. The Chassidim are losing bachurim and Chabad is having serious issues in this area too. and then we cry and have asifos and all sorts of self proclaimed experts in Kiruv kerovim are cropping up like mushrooms (most of whose credentials is years in a classical yeshiva studying Gemore with the inability to be a rov or ram and a two bit degree in counseling or pastoral couseling worth the same a Rav umaggid klaf is worth).
Lets get real in order to keep our kids frum and proud we need to change the curriculum in many of our schools or at least offer an alternative program .
Even in Hungary there were Torah Veavoda schools in the 20th century.
Its an Eys laasos therefore heyfeyru Torasecho !
Yes we can feel proud and smug in Chadash assur mIn haTorah , aha ! we need to follow this derech of the gedolim or that derech with the shayne vertlech that go with it. and at the same time have hundreds fall away annualy or we can be bold and be mechadesh bechol Yom Tamid, the Torah the Maase Breishith of our world.As I say the Torah is the Moreshet of all Kehillas yaakov not just of the shevet Levi and me thinks that was one of the boldest messages of the baal Shem Tov and his disciples.
Commenting by HaloScan
