mentalblog.com comments:
Schneur - gut gezogt!
About 20 years ago I heard (with my own ears) Reb Yoel Kahan saying things very-very similar to what you are proposing here.
My feeling is that the problems are deeper than just overemphasis of Gemorro. I don't have the energy to blog about this now.
I always thought that growing up in Northern Virginia, without the benefit of any yeshiva training whatsoever, held me back. I'm beginning to think differently.
I got to Torah and Nach almost by accident, after I returned from Israel in 1979. I had always, of course, been interested in the religion, but my knowledge was scant. Now that I knew Hebrew I thought I could accomplish two things at once (study religion and practice my Hebrew) by buying myself a Mikros Gadolos and studying Torah along with the classic perushim. I had never entered that world and now, at 24 years old, I began without help and with no direction.
Frankly, I was immediately engrossed and have been for the last 26 years. I moved from Tanach to Mishnah and Midrash, from there to Gamorra and from there to Zohar, the Chofetz Chaim, Ramak, Ari, Malbim, Moharan, Tanya, Gikatilla, and Abulafia to name but a few. I spend at least two hours a day in study and I love every minute of it. I include, at minimum, the daily Torah portion, Midrash Tanchuma, Rashi, some Ramban, and a page of Tikkunei haZohar. At night, Talmud (I concentrate on just a few sections: Peah, Barachos, Shabbat, Avodah Zarah). What's so hard?
My own Chabad Rabbi here in NoVA is a wonderful man and a real inspiration. Although I've never tapped him for any instruction, he'll talk with me about important spiritual issues and the like and he definitely respects my own efforts and gives every encouragement.
Why, with such a vast sea of knowledge, do yeshivot play the Talmud card alone? Why not encourage students' curiosities in other ways? The Talmud itself tells us that there are Baalei Mishna, Baalei Midrash, Baalei haKituv, etc. and promotes, at least in my mind, diversity in learning. I don't mean to demean Talmud ... that is obviously the bedrock of any study. There are any number of books out there that discuss methods of Gamorrah study ... The spirituality we can get from Steinzaltz and almost any discussion on kabbalah, including Tanya.
Is this really lost?!?
Am I better off for having missed yeshiva after all? Would I be where I am now ... not only in my studies, but in my LOVE of study ... if I had been immersed in yeshiva at an early age? If not, then I think some serious questions need to be addressed ... and soon. What's the rate of attrition anyway?
Reb Schenur,
WADR: You claim that you're all for
GFS + SOHARAV (with all that it entails). And you claim that 3 hours daily is enough. YImchol lee adonee: For what age group are you talking about?
From 13-19?
A 13 year boy:i cannot dream that this is enough to scractch the surface in teaching the boy some basic skills to read Gemoroh and understand Rashi and TOssefos and some Rishonim.
At 16 he has got the hang of it (if properly taught and properly utilized the time) to make some leyning on his own. And this is on very limited amount of blatt of gemoroh. This is far far far from a cursory knowledge to begin learning ...and this is after having around 4 or more hours in gemoroh.
I believe (and maybe wrong) that actually in places where there is acurriculum similar to what you propose, like in YU (Yeshiva Gedola) they learn shortter hours as you propose, but from what i know (spoken to people who learnt there) the level of learning for those bachurim is very low.
Now: you bring the hnnderds of boys in yeshivas who (according your assessment) know next to nothing but gemorah. I do not know about that: But i do know that hundreds and thousands of these *not metzutoyinim* have lots of knowledge in many areas in torah that they would NOT have were they in the European system. And thety have far more knowledge (overrall) than some chaverim who do not go to these yeshivas.
And it is fair to assume: that had it not been that these thousands of boys (not metzuyanim) were in a yeshiva where they spend most of their days, they would be off the derech as some of their friends are unfortunately now.
While: i agree with you that there needs to be a parallel system for those who are unable to cope with the heavy yeshiva load; i would venture that overall: for 65% of the bochurim the yeshiva serves them to keep in YIddishkeyt and to have ahavass haTorah and ahava do mitzvoss.
Amd do not lose perspective: While unfortuantely many kids go off (in *all* kreyzen) , the cold fact probably is: that those boys who go a yeshiva like TV will frey out less than boys who learn in a yeshiva like YU vekayotzey.
And the cold fact is: that proportion of people who are shomrey torah and mtizvot and somewhat mehader in them are from yeshivas that have their bochurim more busy with Chochomossoy yisborech that is found in Torah SheBAal PEh and as the Alter Rebbe states numerous times in Tanya the focal importance of learning TSB "lechem" and through that we have "yichud nifloh" etc. whose effect cannot be overlooked.
The nekudah: While there has to be a new system and also there has to be improvement in other areas of Torah, one cannot discount the success created by the present system and bedavka that through this system many that are not from shevet levi hold on and on...
Incidentally: I would like to point out: that some of the problems you raised are solved *davka* in Lubavitch: FOr a boy who is not fit for "legal shakleh vetryah" as much, can fulfill himself in Mivtzoim and helping arragne programs to help other yidden...helps build an achrayoos for other yidden etc. etc
And yes: Of course we need Limud Hachassidus (or lechol hapochos mussar etc) to keep reminding us about the NOssen HaTorah; and again that is where Chassidus Chabad has an upper hand that it reminds the bochur all the time shiflus hoodom and nossen hatorah...
but the recipe for the upkeep of the boy in Yiddishkeyt is: Yidishkeyt = TOrah and to incorporate in himself (havonoh vehassogoh) and that is through: TOrah SheBAAL Peh.
INcidentally: You mentioned in a different thread: that from the descendants etc only the Rashab and TTL survived: REmember the stress there was DAVKA reject any chochmoss chitzoniyoos and in the curriculum there there was no Jewish History or even Gedoyley Yisroel, and remember it was *8 hours GEFESS*! (And of course, i would venture that during those 8 hours many excelled in Novi, Halcoho, Meforshey Hamikroh, but there was no psecial curriculum for that).
INcidentally and prenthetically i just like to mention some points (some to support some of your points):
I saw a while ago that the FR in tof shin's (i beleieve 5704) criticized the hanholoh for making sure the boys know how to *write*. he wanted to have classes to teach the boys (i believe bar mitzvoh boys) to know how to write and to know dikduk (if i'm not mistaking).
I saw recently somewhere: that in Navardok the RY (i think Reb YOzel his name) was the Mussar mentor. He had his own young son in law take care answering gefess. He felt the boys were detracting and losing the fire of mussar...he fired his own SIL
Luis, I am torn about your question. On one hand there are thousands on Jews who's enthusiasm for Torah have been snuffed by the Yeshiva system. On the other hand I believe in learning through osmosis and I am convinced that people with traces of Tomchei Tmimim kasha in their blood stream for example are a different breed.
Shneur, as usual, the post is excellent. First from a general perspective: I think we really need to separate the kids falling off the path from the curriculum disaster. We can atribute kids falling off to one thing, the tremendous amount and availability of taavos olam hazeh available out there.
Fast food is available for pennies. Shmutz is available online. Women are advertised scantily clad almost everywhere. Non-Jewish music plays everywhere in public. It's impossible to escape, for someone who cannot simply duck their head underwater.
The way to counter this is not to ban cel phones, tv, traveling by bus or enforce living in Monsey. We need to teach that A) we all have taavos, even that big Rosh Yeshivah sitting up there, and it's a matter of ignoring them. B) Af al pi shechotoh yisroel hu - if you fell, put on Tefilin anyway. Life is a constant struggle.
We indoctrinate that every step must be perfect, avodas hashem, yada yada, and forget that without Teshuvah Judaism is impossible.
Addressing the curriculum on a Chabad note, kids need to be taught that the curriculum in Yeshivah is there for the things that you can't learn on your own. There needs to be a curriculum that brings a kid by age 16 to be able to learn Tanach with meforshim on their own (having the Rebbe's wealth of Sichos on Rashi and other parts of Tanach make this very easy), to be able and interested in cracking open any Sefer on their own - the Rambam's Seforim, the Maharal's, Seder Hadoros and related.
At age 16, the actual curriculum consists of Chasidus, Gemora and Shulchan Aruch, subjects in which you need a shiur and guidance, and other Seforim can be learned on their own.
The view of Chabad towards Chinuch can be seen clearly in a few places: A) in the idea (in Hayom Yom?) that the Baal Shem Tov introduced Chasidus to the world, and the Alter Rebbe introduced that everyone can learn Chasidus, not just Anshei Maaloh. B) In the details of the story in the Frierdike Rebbe's Memoirs of how the Nistar Reb Hirsh (?) slowly teaches the ignorant of Shareye (?) from Alef Bais up, bringing the hermit Rov of the town to tears. If that isn't an inspiring story in Chinuch, I don't know what is. Ignoring disparity of group, teaching each individual, never giving up, and caring! C) In the FRs Klolei Hachinuch Vehadrachah. Seriously, if we truly follow our Rebbe, then when he says that he doesn't repeat concepts that the FR taught over and over precisely because he already taught them, then we need to follow the FR's extensive writings.
R' Guravitzer:
One point: Since you hit the nail on the head about the source of all tzoross, "taavoss olam hazeh", you offered the solution as (not banning different things, but) teaching a) that everyone has a yetzer H, b) af al pi shechotoh Yistroel, and remember that teshuva is part of yiddishkeyt.
I beg to differ with you:
It must be pointed out, the simple facts: a) that a house where the kids are deprived on Internet , Tv, koch in sports, etc. the kids are better off being less exposed to taavos they are more sensititzed to be "naasse loy keheter" as is the case by those who are overly exposed to them and experience them on a regular basis.
"ess vet gornisht helfen": all the nice talk of "af al pi shechotoh.." and that the RY have YH (and a hiddur in the talk about it) does not make the bochur a chassidish or plain yireh shomayim bochur.
It is boduk umenusseh: that the bochurim who are less exposed to these garbage tend to be more chassidishe bochurim and bepashtuss have more plain yereh shomayim.
The same is regarding the influence of their parents on them': children who have parents who are less exposed to these garbage offer more of a "dugmoh chayoh" to their children as those who are unfortunate to have this guidance from the parents and the home atmosphere.
b) Number 2: you lest one big ingredient: If the kids have a koch in learning it diminishes the koch in the taavoss an it has a great impact in their chinuch. This is poshut and boduk umenusseh. Of course they also have a YH and the other have "af al pi shechotoh", but bepoel mamosh: these kids will have less interest to go to the movies as their counterparts.
The same legabeh their parents: kids whose parents koch zich in lernen are better off with regards to their koch in Taavos olom hazeh as their freinds who are not fortunate enough to have this experience.
And for those who will eat me alive for talking such misnagdishe reyd, i'll quote from the Rashab's Maamorim of 5666 (the b famous Samech Vov) page 270 that are dvorim pshutim hanogim leinyoneynu:
"...ואין עבירה מכבה תורה להיות התורה היא בחי' פנימית ועצמות אוא"ס שאין שם אחיזה ויניקה כלל לכן אין עבירה מכבה אותה כו' ואדרבא אורייתא מגינא ומצלי מן היסורים ומצלי מן החטא כו' והיינו ששומר שלא יבא לידי חטא ולא יהיה יניקה לסט"א, והענין דהנה התורה נקרא ג"כ בית והעיקר הוא בתשבע"פ וכמארז"ל בנה ביתך זו גמרא כו'....הבית הוא מקורה ואינו מניח הפסולת ליפול בתוכו כו' וכמו"כ התורה היא בית המקורה שכאשר מעמיק שכלו בעכק התורה בפרדס שכל עצמותו מראשו ועד רגלוו מלובש ומעוטף בו וא"א להיות ממנו יניקה....
....ועפז יובן משארזל ויתר על כו' ולא ויתר על עון ביטול תורה דאם היה עסק התורה כדבעי למיהווי לא היה שום אחיזה ויניקה לסט"א, אבל ע"י ביטול תורה שהלב והמוח פנויים מן החכמה דתורה, והיינו שאינו מקורה כחצר כנ"ל, והרי המחשבה שהיא תמידית כנ"ל כאשר היא פנויה מתורה ה"ה מהרהרת בדברים בטלים והרהורים רעים שעי"ז נעשה ממשלת זדים ר"ל כנ"ל, ועסק המצות לא יועיל לזה כלום כי יכולים לאחוז לינק מזה ..."
Which incidentally has to do with the inyon of Gemoroh study of Torah she Baal PEh, which ha the maaloh and advantage of involving entirely the person to be immersed in it "כל עצמותו מראשו ועד רגלו מעוטף ומלובש בו"
But it is poshut in this maamor and in poshuter reality that the less bittul torah the less fulfillment of the tavos olom hazeh etc.
There is no question that step one is removal of all taavos from house.
You are incorrect on the second point. Echod yotzeh lehorooh is a fact. Not everyone is going to have a koach in limud hatorah. After the Perek Echod Shacharis and Arvis, they need other things to hold them. Mikveh neies, chasidishe maases, shlichus, call it whatever you want, but first they need to know that as many taavos as they have it must be driven from the mind, and when you do fall in a chosid kricht arois.
in addition to the *facts* that those who learn (even if they are not from the "yotzey lehorooh") end up minimizing the problem of the taavos, (even by those who do not have extra "koach" in limud hatorah, as seen by majority of bochurim who follow the sedorim, according to their abilities (meaning that also try to learn during the sedorim)), hareh, שוברו בצידו: in order for us to have "echod yotzey lehorooh'' we must have "nihnissim lemishneh" and ligmoroh". and "nichnass" means pshtuoy kmashmoooy.
But, *if* the situation is like the one you describe: that the bochur is on a level of "perek echod shachris vearviss", then:
WE should do what's written in the AR SO HTT about it:
"מאה נכנסים למשהכו' אינו חייבל חיות חיי צער ולעשות מלאכתו עראי כדי להרבות בלימוד שאינו מבין על בוריו שהוא לימוד ההלכות בלי טעמים ....יי"ח בקביעות עתיןם לתת לקיים מה שכתוב והגית ...ללמודולזכור היטב לימוד המביא לידי מעשה בלבד שהוא חובה על הכל דהיינו השולחן ערוך מהלכות הצריכות לכל אדם ...ולימוד בהגדות ומדרשים או ספרי מוסר שנבנו על מדרשי חכמים...ושאר כל היום יעסוק במשא ומתן כדי שיכול להחזיק תח שהם לומדי תורה....":
Which means that if he is someone who is not on the level to learn the yeshiva curriculum (what i would say 20% of bochurim) they should have a different schedule: learn halocho, chassidus, and surprise: TEACH THEM A TRADE so that they will be to support themselves (and also others as explained in this halocho).
Odom Leomol Yulod: Teaching bochurim to be idle is extremly detrimental to their chinuch...chassidishe maasses in chassidishe farbrengens with mashpia yerey shomayim or group of chassidishe bochurim where they farbreng to become better bochurim is great...sitting and shmoozing and drinking and partying for nights and nights and then days is hashchossoh...
mikveh neeiss of the latest m,aamor that is printed, of moradiker mussar heskael from a tomim is fantastic, but talks about the Chabad spokesman : how he goes against the Rebbe and how he is a nifrod and no gooder is the greatest hashchossoh and destruction to the boy and to lubavitch a a whole...involvement in shlichus and mivtzoim and planning it and doing it is eyn lemaaloh himenooh, but deciding who is a shliach and who is not, for nights and days is hashchossoh and leads to maasseh nevoloh and shlechtzkeyt for this bochur and lubavitch as a whole...
The best thing for the boy who is on a level of perek echod shachris...TEACH HIM A TRADE as written in the Torah and he will do the will of Hashem to support himself and family honestly.
All other slogans are false gimmicks and good feelings that do not add up to anything...
Or Limud HaTorah KFi Kochoy or Omol MElocho...
Batoloh meviooh liydey shimum vezimoh...
The Rebbe was of your opinion noted by the founding of Bet Sefer Limlachah.
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