mentalblog.com comments:
Schneur,
The Kopuster (Magov Avos) has (secular)descendents living in israel. They are in possesion of several ksovim etc... The Rebbe expressed interest in the Ksovim that they had.
im new to this blog. interesting stuff. didnt reb mendel schneersohns dasughter visit the rebbe with her husband once? i was under the impression that she was from bnei brak
also: i believe that seligson is from r' chaim avrohom
if someone can enlighten me.
reb nochum the mitteler rebbes son had a grandson called twersky-schneersohn who passed away in ny -i guess about 40 years ago.
are there any descendants from him?
sto pratzent (a great name) you might also follow this:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...-
dynasties.html
Sto Pratzent,
If I recall correctly I read/heard that Zelligsons are from one of the Z'Z daughters (Rade Freide). Are you sure they are from R. Chaim Avrum?
MIB
im pretty sure its like that on the nusach of dr. seligsons matzeiva
I guess i'm mistaken... i remember otherwise.
Incidentally, today was the 25th Yartzeit of Reb Zalman Schneerson.
just a little limud zechus here if i may.
what you dont hear much these days about SZS are the people he brought to chabad after the war.
zilbershtroms in israel silberstein and yakabovitch in belgium.
there are probably more.
Where was Reb Zalman Schneerson from in Russia?
Anyone has photos of SZS and DBS?
I write the following not for the sake of being "ipcha mistabra" but for the sake of what I think is the truth.And with respect for the original poster.
As far as one can tell from the Sefer Hazezoim by Rabbi Halperin of Jerusalem , the Zeligsons are desc. from Rabbi Chaim Avrohom ben Admor Hazaken. Perhaps Halperin omitts data as he certainly does on occassion.Next does Sholom Ber Schneersohn have 2 children or 3 ?
Next in my conversations with Bere Gourary I heard little that would hint of a shidduch between the 2 families as Bere had some less than posative things to say about that family. In fact he spoke to me in detail about a possible shiduch with one of the daughters of the rav Rabbi Dr. Joseph Baer Soloveitchik which alas never came to fruition. Again the statement may be true but I tend to have some doubts about it.
My final comment about the rebbe showing SZ Schneersohn much respect. This was true after Zalman Schneersohn's death as the rebbe escorted his funeral part of the way. Yet in his lifetime neither SZ or SB could ever get a job in the large network of mosdos Lubavitch was since 1940.SZ struggled with the SYRIT Yeshiva and Sholom Ber worked for the US postal service. The real reason for the "bad blood" between the 2 families goes back to France after World war 2 and the issue of who ran Lubavitch activities there.
SBS has 2 sons and 1 daughter. His daughter is married to Yanki Hertzog from C.H. (former Va'ad Ha'Kohol member).
I think the Rebbe stayed in SZS house for sometime when he was in France.
Just checked in Sefer hatzeetaim the Genealogical history of the Schneersohn family (has many errors and omissions) . It seems the Seligsons are desc. from Rabbi Chaim Avrohom the brother oft he Mittler rebbe.
But families tended to inter marry constantly so I would be interested inhearing if they are also desc. from the Zemach Zedek.
By the way an earlier history of the Schneersohn family by a Mr. Slonim lists the rebbe has having a son Sholom Ber ! Probably confused with Sholom Ber Gourary.
Schneerson-Twersky. The last rebbe of that geza lived on Eastern Pkwy and died in the late 1950's. He was a Koidenover rebbe. He was friendly with the Lubavitcher rebbe and sat at several farbrenguns.He was not Chabad.
I met his son 3 years ago at a meeting of Koidenover chassidim in Flatbush in honor of the youthful Koidenover rebbe Rav Erlich Shlit"a from Israel. Schneerson-Twersky is a successful Modern orthodox businessman interested in his heritage. he is ben acher ben from the Mittler rebbe.
rabbi Poupko of Flatbush was the son in law of the koidenover rebbe of Eastern Pkwy.
Schneur,
I don't remember where I read or heard that the Zelligsons are from the Z'Z daughter. It may well be that I am mistaken, I'll check into it.
For the record, SB Schneerson has three children: Yosef Yitzchok (LA), Menachem Mendel (NY) and Chaya (NY) married to Yaakov Herzog.
As for what I mentioned about a Shidduch, The RaSHaG had at a point considered Haddasah Schneerson for his son. The idea never went anywhere, so that may be why Ber G. did not make mention of it.
As for my "much respect" comment, there is evidence of this in many letters that I have seen and in recollections of their Yechidus'n.
For the record, The Rebbe participated in SZ Schneersons Levaya the whole way through until the Beis Hachayim.
Just for the sake of curiosity , how many yechidusen did rabbi Schneur zalman Schneersohn have with the last rebbe and how often did he go in ?
I know that he went in when he came to the US and several times thereafter. I don't have the exact statistics.
dont know how zeligson would be from the ZZs daughter. i believe he was of polish stock. not russian. its possible though
incidentaly - from what i understand - isa'ah berlin (the proffesor) did come from the ZZs daughter. i think his father was an adopted child of r' yeshaya berlin who was married the ZZs grandaughter.
Chaim Yeshaya Berlin was married to Chava the daughter Rade Freide daughter of Z'Z.
Sto, it's a bit difficult to understand:Was Isa'ah Berlin a blood descendant of The Zemach Zedek or not?Who was adopted, Isa'ahs father?
Please clarify
isa'ah berlins father, mendel was adopted by his great uncle yeshaya berlin. isa'ah was born shortly after r' yeshayas death and was named for him. isa'ah berlins maternal grandfather was also a chabad chosid.
his parents did not lead a religious lifestyle
take a look here:
http://bloghd.blogspot.com/2005/...endency-
to.html
It says that I.Berlin had Alter Rebbe's tffilin. It also claims that Yehudi Menuhin comes from the same line.
i dont see how they can be equal cousins though. IB was 4 generations from the ZZ and the rebbe was 5.
he says IB's a schneersohn from his maternal side. i dont think this is the case. maybe he meant from his fathers maternal side. the teffillin and the rebbetzin is pretty interesting.
Why exactly was there an animosity between the Rebbe and ZS?
i remember hearing that about r' shloimele. how?
DEEEEקקגגג
Sorry about the last comment. My computer is Schizo. Sometimes it thinks it is Israeli and switches to Hebrew on its own.
On the subject of the Bobover dynasty - I have met a few Bobover Rebbishe einiklach and among them was the name Devorah Leah. Start looking there.
cherkasser descendant?
then he was something like a second cousin to the FR?
Sto, if I understand you correctly, Isaah Berlin was NOT a blood descendant of ZZ.
The link about Isa'ah Berlins mom being friends with Rebbitzen Chaya Mushka, and that the 'rebbitzen visited London often' sounds off the wall.A)R' Moushkeh would be much younger than bERLINS MOM.B)I don't recall the rebbitzen travelling at all.
The animosity from R' Zalman Schneerson towards the Rebbe, because qat a ceirtan stage in his life he saw himself as the as the fitting heir after the friediker Rebbe.
He acted a bit "rebisteve" etc.
When The Rebbe became the next Rebbe, he took it very hard, as he was looking forward to his fantasy his whole life......
hello
was that the whole reason though? was there beef from before?
malach,
correct. he was not a blood descendant.
i know as a fact that the rebbtzin visited london in '54. she mentioned something about it once to some londoners. its quite possible that there were more visits.
please remember that mrs. berlins (adoptive) father in law was close to the maharash and the rashab. its quite possible that the rebbetzin was friendly with her. (they were 2nd cousins).
I am going a little off topic now - the Frierdiker Rebbe truthfully seems to be the only Rebbe in the later generations where it would be worth it to fight for the rebisteve.
Think: The Rebbe Maharash had the minority of the Chasidim, the Rebbe Rashab (at the beginning of course) was ravaged by Communism and Haskalah.
The only really calm transfer of rebistive when the chasidim where worth fighting over was to the Mitteler Rebbe. Even to the Tzemach Tzedek was in doubt. (I'm thinking it was settled more because there was a clear horooh - someone help me here?). The succesion to the TT was horrific.
Who would seriously want to succeed the Rebbe? You will have to deal with all the crazy Meshichisten and grube mashpiim etc.
But the FR still had a cadre of strong Chasidim, anyone weak was lost to other elements, proven baalei mesiras nefesh. Why wouldn't anyone want to be their Rebbe and relax while leading them? Which the Rebbe did not do - instead trained a new generation to a new form of Mesiras Nefesh.
The only really calm transfer of rebistive when the chasidim where worth fighting over was to the Mitteler Rebbe
You have got to be kidding? Right?
Reb Aharon Starasheler (Staroseller) took with him a huge amount of chassidim. It took a special public letter from ziknei chassidim to prod people to stay true to the Alter Rebbe's son.
Even to the Tzemach Tzedek was in doubt.
Tzemach Tzedek was actually not in doubt - he kept refusing the position. But he was asked first. Then there is the famous story with Reb Aizik Homlyer and the carriage that was sent to bring him to Lubavitch …
Rabbi Schneur Zalman Schneerson had come to france before the war in the war years he had in vichy france a hostel for boys who were mainly from antwerp and a lot of the boys became chabad chassidim the zilbersteins & yakbovich ect among the boys were the present Chief Rabbi of antwerp Rabbi D.M. Liberman who is a chabad chosid and a son in law of Reb yudel Chitrik shlitah
berl, thanks for the correction on MR. About the TT, the eltere chasidim had a hard time with it and came around only because of the horooh.
So all in all, in turns out the only handover when the Chasidim were in good form which was calm was to the TT, due to the clarity. All others were either a machlokes or not worth fighting over.
http://hydepark.hevre.co.il/
hyde...topic_id=562136
kopuster.
more accurately: silberstein yakabovitch etc were teachers. these guys are in their 80's.
one of the boys though was bloch obm who lived on montgomery st. another is silber in montreal.
among the boys were the present Chief Rabbi of antwerp Rabbi D.M. Liberman who is a chabad chosid and a son in law of Reb yudel Chitrik shlitah
KOPUSTER | 07.27.05 - 1:11 pm | #
If he is a son in law of Reb Yudel Chitrik, meaning the zaken hachassidim, then he is also R" SB Schneerson's brother-in-law.
guravitzer, in regards to the Tzemach Tzedek's ascent to the throne you say that "the eltere chasidim had a hard time with it and came around only because of the horooh."
I have a hard time with this statement, since everything I ever read on the subject suggests that he was, indeed, the first choice. Can you please be more specific about the information that inspired your assertion?
guravitzer, one more thing:
I do not know anything about "worth fighting for", but, save for the Tzemach Tzedek, there actually never was a totally uncontested coronation of a Rebbe in Chabad-Lubavitch.
Even with the Previous Rebbe, despite a clear tzavoh from the Rebbe Rashab, there are rumored to have been voices for Yitcher der Masmid (though this may have taken place before the tzavoh was made public). Not to mention the Rebbe's father - there are still people in Lubavitch that remember all the kannoim giving people a hard time for "going to Reb Levik"…
berl,
wasnt r' levik one of the reasons for not supporting the ramash? im wondering if that was also SZS's calculation.
sto patzent,
I do not know what effect - if any - Reb Levik had (posthumously) on the events of 1950. May be some one else here does.
correct me if im wrong, but i understand it was the reason rashag had the support of shemtov - in the begining -
sto pratzent, I do not know - but it sure fits the "style".
1)sto pratzent
Thanks for your info Reb Chaim Aryeh Zilberstein died last year i think he was around eighty that means that in 1940-45 he was between 15 to 20 i dont think they were teachers only students in the hostel of Rabbi Schneur Zalman Schneerson correct me if i am wrong
2) Questionable Strategy
Correct Rabbi Liberman is a brother in law of S.B Schneerson
3)berl, crown heights
it is a bit suprising that after the Rsha"b some chassidim went to Reb Levik from what i heard that the chassidim in lubavich(i state the chassidim not the rebbeim) did not like reb levik for two reasons 1)that reb levik was a mekubal he did in kabbolah which was is not the derech of chabad 2) Reb levik did not send his children to Tomchei Tmimim
R' Levik definitely had the opinion that he should be Rebbe (based on a mesorah that the TT said "vedor Rvii Yashuvu henah"), but no one actually followed him, so there was no actual machlokes.
The story with Bentche was that he threw a hentchike at R' Levik, and got a nezifah afterwards, although he asked for mechilah.
He also got a nezifah after his petirah, the family was told that since he was the FRs man, he should be buried in Kfar Chabad.
guravitzer
Reb Benzion Shemtov was the rebbe man in England a real chasidshe yid ( i heard from someone that he once went purim early morning to reb benzion house and saw him saying thilim with tears running down his face)
i find it very hard to belive that he got nezifah by being buried in kfar chabad could you tell me where he should have been buried
Reb bentche was the Rebbe's man through and through. As he was the Frierdike Rebbe's beforehand. In fact, one of the greater things about him was probably his ability for teshuvah.
The family wanted to bury him in NY. I may be hazy on the details, but the nezifah was definitely there.
Reb Bentche has two sides to him.
In short he was a fanatic and always was looking for an outlet for his fanaticsm.
in his younger years he activly waged war against the Rebbe's father, Reb Leivik, and caused him to remain in a hut in alma ata without food etc., instead of being in samarkand with the rest of Anash....
Unfortunately Reb Levik passed away there and it caused the Rebbe lots of agmas nefesh....
After Yud Shvat he supported the Rasgag at first, possibaly because he thought the Rebbe was "tainted" cha"v by his father.
Later on he did a "180" and became Reb Leiviks biggest fan. He established machon levi yizchok in kfar-chabad, and hisson runs the annual Yarchei Kallah on Reb Leiviks Yortzeit in Gan Israel.
Like father like son, study the additude of Berel towards the Rebbetzin.
V'hamayvin Yovin.
Poltaver Rov, ver a chosid...
Gross exageration is unnecessary to make your point, unless your point was to exagerate. Zeh hamevin eino mevin.
kopuster.
CA silberstein has a brother who lives in antwerp who was also a teacher in SZS's moisad in france after the war. i know this from a student of his. if theyre in their 80s today then after the war they were in their 20s. schneersohns moised catered to kids.
poltaver:
berels atitude towards "di mammeh" - as far as i understand - only changed after she left this world
CA was more like 87 his younger brother amu"sh is also around 84 or 85
sto pratzent:
Excactly my point.
sto, whatever attitude you think he has, is the same as it was before.
poltaver
my point was that his father switched bechayei the rebbe as opposed to himself who capitalized on the concept posthumously
guravitzer
get him when he's drunk (shouldnt be to hard) and it all comes out.
Sto, I see you're interested in character assasination as well, no matter what it takes. Are pot shots and (in the case of Poltaver) gross exagerations ends in and of themselves?
Poltaver knows what he is talking about. He doesn't exagerate.
Maybe you can point out any "gross exagerations".?
"Poltaver knows what he is talking about"
poltaver ganev, you stole my מנוחת הנפש
what Ben. Shem. had to do with R. L.S. stay in alma ata?
Your depiction of Reb Bentche (fanatic, only years later changing on Reb levik, his view on the Rebbe), made up story of Samarkand, Berl on the Rebbetzin. In short, every single thing you said was a gross exageration.
poltaver, explain your comment re: R.Leivik's stay in alma ata and B.Sh. involvement. you said bentzion "caused him to remain in a hut in alma ata without food" please elaborate. this is not a statement that could stay undefended.
faruq, where have you been?
TA, i was enjoying the חומש הפקודים following the Advice of TNLR and seeking מנוחת הנפש. however, your contributors disturb me beyond description.
guravitzer
please point out character assasination on my part.
everyone has faults. (his father also had faults and he was a refined person, mekushar and chosid.)
his opinion on "di mameh" has come out in the past when he was somewhat inebriated. this is fact.
guravitzer and/or sto pratzent, what does poltaver mean by alma ata and B.Sh.? is there any foundation to this accusation? is it a fact, exageration or fabrication?
Gentlemen,
האט רחמנות ,איך וויל שלאפן רואיק
guravitzer
im getting the impression az du shtamst fun der druyer. dunno why
guravitzer, sto prAtzent, poltaver:
just to quote our host: "Lubavitcher garbage leave this blog now."
faruq
i havent a clue as to what poltaver is talking about regarding shemtov and alma ata
Poltaver,
you hit it on the head regarding BZS, Rashag, Berel S and the rebbetzin. During the 60's they used a term "3 headed snake" that doesn't allow the Rebbe menucha. They were referring to the Rebbitzen,Rebbitzen Nechama Dina, and Chana Gurary. After 22 Shvat, suddenly the mama showed up.
When all the Chasidim were in samarkand, they were planning to bring Reb Leivik, a choshuveh rov from his Golus in Alma Ata to be amongst the Chasidim.
However a few activists led by Benzion Shemtov campaigned against it, on the grounds that he was not a mekusher and has no place amongst Anash.
Reb Leivik passed away in miserable conditions.
Ask Zalman Chanin from the "Vaad", I heard he knows the whole story.
Guravitzer:
As they say in Safed
כמה שנים הייתה בחב"ד?
poltaver
1. he would of passed on anyway. he was weak and physicaly destroyed at that point because of his suffering.(keyadua that the rebbe didnt recognize his picture at first)
2. r' levik enjoyed utmost respect and admiration from all the jewish factions in AA.
3. the situation in samarkand was pretty miserable itself.
cut bentche some slack. i dont see how he contributed much to r' leviks passing away in miserable conditions.
Reb Leivik arrived in AA several months before his histalkus. We was very weak and it is quite a distance to Samarkand. In addition, it was in middle of WW2 (1944) and a starvation was happening in Russia. It is a little overboard IMHO to point fingers at that point at anyone about what they could have or should have done.
the question is not what he didn't do but what he did do. What is left is our psychological makeup. Was Shemtov a narrow minded, totalitarian, intolerant communist? Is that a character that blends well with many people who maneuvered themselves in the positions of kanoim (that according to ZZ are shlechter mentchen)? I don't know.
TA, i know a rov in Flatbush, a real talmid chohom (exclusively in positive connotation), very accessible, yet deep personality, with a sense of humor etc. in short, a pleasure to be around. the guy knows next to nothing about chabad. however, what little he does know comes from B. Shem. The rov was raised in england and his father, a prominent talmid Ch. himself, used to daven in shemtov’s shul in england. The rov’s attitude towards lubavitch is that of scorn and disdain. when provoked to share his feelings re chabad he would say “he drank and yelled and screamed at my father’s face that whoever doesn’t know Tania is an am-hooretz.” and he would wave his hand in dismissal.
Instead of commenting on the accusations leveled here, let me relate the following parable that I heard from the real old-timers. I think it describes the character of the man rather aptly. It goes like this:
"Az der Rebbe volt geheisen beide Nissan'n (der Geller) un Bentze'n hargenen a yidn h"v, volt Nissan gegangen mit bittere treren, er volt zich opgeshtelt yeder por trep un zich gedarf dermonen az er hot nit kein breira, er muz ‘es ton vail der Rebbe hot azei geheisen. Un Bentze volt gegangen mit freid, zingen derbai a marsh." Ad kan lesheinom beerech. Vehapirush ach lemeisor.
[I know it is a pain to read it like this – but Hebrew is not working on this machinke :) ]
faruq
the rov you sre speaking about. his father never davend in shemtov shul because only lubavichers davened in shemtov shul the only thing is that london in those time was a place where a frumer yid knew all the frumer yidden and shemtov probally wanted that the rovs father who was a starke chassidshe yid (i thing i knew the father personaly) from galicia to learn tayna and he said to shemtov to go jump and shemtov anwsered back
Correct me if i am wrong
kopuster, you are wrong. the rov was far from galizianer "chassidisher yid" כרחוק מזרח ממערב
faruq,
I know this businessman from North Carolina, who is a very rich man (I mean this exclusively in a positive sense). He is generous to a fault. Despite his wealth, he is very accessible and has a great sense of humor. In short - a pleasure to be around!
Now, this guy knows next to nothing about the Jews. What little he does know, comes from a man by the name of Ben Samuelson – an inn kipper from Charleston. You see, my acquaintance was raised in Atlanta, and his father, himself a prominent businessman, used to take the boy along on his frequent business trips to Charleston. The pair used to stay in Ben’s Inn.
I do not know all that had transpired during those stays, but even today the man’s attitude towards the Jews is that of scorn and disdain.
I once provoked him to explain his feelings, the otherwise calm and genteel businessman from North Carolina started foaming at his mouth and furiously exclaimed: “that Jew Ben drank himself silly and then yelled and screamed in my father’s face that only the Jews have enough brains to make money.” And then he calmed down and simply waved his hand in a gesture of dismissal.
berl, i admire you
but if don't get off now, i get fired...
faruq
Thanks for the info
Just please find out did the rovs father daven by shemtovs shul or not
Berl,
A classic! LOL
TA
i dont know about the communist part. but totalitarian and intolerant should be a pretty apt description. i dont know that he was a "shlechter" though. from what i hear there was some heart in him as opposed to some of his offspring.
regarding szs & the rebbe ,there is an intresting picture by reb elya chaim carlbachs wedding, of the rebbe & rebitzen ,rebitzen Chana, the rashag & his wife & N.D. sitting by the head table
There are several true chassidishe yidden (I do not care to go into names; suffice it that they are related to R' Nissan, וד"ל ) that claim that the few major cities with sizable Lubavitch communities/Mosdos that are relatively machlokes-free, are only so because there are no Shemtovs in town.
berl, you're the funniest. I think you're a mayorer.
Yes, Shemtovs trash Nisen and Nisen trashes Shemtovs. What else is new? The bottom line is, we need to craft a story (from Zalman Chanin! Hee Hee! Hoo Hoo! I can't stop laughing on that source! May all journalists keep such sources!) that Bentche made sure that Reb Levik did not go to Samarkand, when the reality is that Reb Levik was in condition to go anywhere, not even to Moscow where he needed his treatment.
All of this grows out of one story - Bentche throwing a handkerchief at Reb Levik. What wonderful fertilizer must have been planted by you gents to grow the story to create a mass-murderer!
Guravitzer:
Zalman Chanin and his family have been in Lubavitch long enough to know what was going on, unlike a wannabe like you, who, probably rolled in, in the past 10 years and feels the need to defend the Shemtovs.
There are many people around today who were in Samarkand in that Tekufah and can verify all this (One of these ppeopl, even told me that if Reb Leivik would of been brought into samarkand and been given proper nourishment and care, he could have lived an additional 10-15 years...)
The reason I refered you to Zalman Chanin, is because he apparently is on the "other side" of the the shemtov dominated establishment, and he would not have the fear in relating these facts.
Guravitzer:
My friends are all laughing at your pathetic attemts to read into stories that you have know clue about.
Get some honesty and speak to some elders from that time, before you ramble off again.
(and to shock your pathetic little asuumtions.... Mendel Futerfas helped Bentze Shemtov in that crusade..)
2) Questionable Strategy
Correct Rabbi Liberman is a brother in law of S.B Schneerson
__________________________________
Ah - OK - then I know exactly who you mean - Yossi Chitrik (the last sane man) in Tzfas is married to a Lieberman who is his 1st cousin. This must be Rabbi Lieberman's sister.
poltaver,
who said thar he would of lived another 10 years? chassidm? medical proffesionals? is it all speculation on one persons part?
please remember that r' levik was practicaly unrecognizable by the time he was done with tziali. samrkand was no paradise either (even in the later years). what do the people who were in AA at that time (who revered him) say?
i dont know the answers, but its not healthy to go out on a limb and speculate, especialy when the implications can be enormous.
Schneur, you are misinformed, neither RSZS nor RSBS was interested in getting a job in Chabad. RSBS"S main occupation is a shoichet ubodek. The Postal job is or was a second job.
Questionable strategy:
I think you are off the mark. Do your homework.
Uhuh. He could have lived another 10-15 years with yenemachle with no medical care in Samarkand. That would be called a miracle. And a miracle could have happened in Alma Ata also.
I have no interest in defending Shemtovs or Chanins or prosecuting them. I want to hear the truth, not some vague made up stories. Shemtovs are to prosecuted based on their tkifus. Chanins are to be prosecuted based on their thievery. Mochkins based on their misanthropy. To paraphrase the saying, don't try to add fuel the fire, as all you are adding is water.
As has been said for 100 years, Poltaver Rov, ver a chosid.
poltaver: "One of these people, even told me that if Reb Leivik would of been brought into samarkand and been given proper nourishment and care, he could have lived an additional 10-15 years..." - the height of stupidity.
Re: Moishe.
Please use some common sense. If Reb Sholom Ber had to work 2 jobs to make a living , by your own admission (and by the way he shechted a sheep for the Bobover rebbe ZT"l to use to make Tefillin from), he probably would have accepted an ofer to work in a Lubavitch school etc.
Rabbi Schneur Zalman Schneersohn had trouble with parnossah in the early 1950's , that even forced him to go back to France to look for "parnossah"
Do you think it just a tad strange that the only 2 Lubavitcher chasidim in the US in the 1950's with the name Schneersohn were not working for the large organization that even then was Chabad ?
By the way many of the comments here about Rabbi SZ Schneersohn and the last rebbe seem strange to me. I spoke to rav Schneersohn several times and heard moe than I cared for about many important personalities in contemporary Lubavitch. I will not comment as any coments may hurt grandchildren of rabbi SZ and discussion of non-public personalities are hardly my wish or interest here.
The only reason I wrote about Reb Sholom Ber Schneersohn is the publication of his photo in the HAMODIAH, and his story appearing in Volume 2 of Yafe Sichoson by Rav Elchonon halperin of Radomishila-London. When Rav YB Goldberger told me , that he was in FACT a hundredperzentiker Bobover, I decided it was an interesting human interest post.
By the way you guys have forgotten Rav Zalman Schneersohn's most famous mekurov in Paris, That is Rabbi Dr. Zalman Schachter-Shalomi. Reb Meshullom Zalman Schachter was a teen age refugee from Vienna lost in Antwerp and Paris where he met people who introduced him to Zalman Schneersohn. He taught him chassiduth Chabad and through him met Rabbi Mendel Schneerson the future Lubavitcher rebbe also in Paris at the same time.
Reb Zalman Schachter wrote a wondeful piece called HOW TO BECOME A MODERN HASID in the early 1960's in JEWISH CURRENTS. There he briefly notesd this story.
schneur.
this aricle by z. schachter. this was still while in winnipeg?
Sto pratzent :
Yes. He was still in Winnepeg and I guess technically Orthodox. The article COULD be shayech to todays younger lubavitchers .
R. Meshu,om Zalman also wrote a piece in Jewish Life published by the OU about a small town orthodox settlement like New Square but spiritual or MO rather than Hungarian charedi.
SZ are you an einykel?
By the way I met Rabbi Halperin and the information he puts into Sefer Tzezoim is based on what information he received from einykel.
There are gaps as because if someone married out their partner and childrens names are not mentioned.
e.g daughter in law and grandchildren of Yehudi Menuhin are chinese.
There are mistakes in the Sefer but there is also a mistake I believe in a genealogical reference book called "The Unbroken Chain" by Rosenstein that states that Pinchas Reizes married the daughter of the Alter Rebbe.
It is a family tradition that the name Reizes was the name of a woman who had 3 daughters.One married Pinchas Reizes,another married Binyomin. Kletzker and a third married Moshe Shlomo Zalman who took on the name Reizes.His son Yaacov Culi Slonim married my alter Bobbe Menucha Rochel Schneuri . The biography of Pinchas Reizes by SDB Avtzon claims the Friediger Rebbe stated that Moshe Shlomo Zalman Reizes married one of his wife's sisters.This statement is difficult to understand.We do know that Moshe Shlomo Zalman Reizes did marry a second time in his old age to his brother's daughter and settled in Eretz Yisroel.This is stated in the Pinchas Records of Rubinowicz and I saw this also written in Daat Kedoshim
which traces the Slonim family back to the Rema and the Zichron Moshe who claimed descent from the Ri.
The point is Seforim, do have errors and often we rely on oral traditions handed down through families.There is the risk that they do change over time.
Remember yichus is like potatoes the best ones are in the ground.
To Schneur,
I'll respond to you al rishon rishon v'al achron achron:
1)RSBS was close to the Rebbe when he got married and in the event he would have wanted to in the Chabad system he wouyld have been accepted with open arms. The fact is that RSBS had no interest in pursuing that route. By the way, it was a Glatt Kosher bull hide that RSBS procured for the Bobover Rov Z"L.
2)It wasn't strictly the matter of parnossoh That senr RSZS back to France. It was mainly that after several rabinic positions that didn't pan out and not being involved in the mainstream Chabad Organization, and being a Asken Charutz or a mover and shaker, he decided to return to France where he originally came from and where he had great success in Avoidas Haklal hoping to continue where he left off.
3) In regard to RSBS being a Bobover Chosid l'chol davar or a "hundredprotzentiker Bobover", let me set the record straight based on first hand knowledge. At the time RSBS moved from Newark NJ to Flatbush and opened up his Shtieble, he continued to go to the Rebbes weekday farbrengens on a regular basis. In fact he would take along Rav Nissen Telushkin in his car. It was the Shabbos Farbrengens that he seldomly attended because of the distance to Crown Height and his responsibilities to his Shul and in general was not considered "a haiser Chasid" that would make the trek on a constant basis. His children when at home from Yeshivah would walk to The Farbrengens on Shabbos. In light of the above, RSBS had a lot of time on his hands throughout the Shabbos. Being a yungerman in his late twenties or early thirties he found Chassidishe entertainment in Bobov. What drew him there was the neginah.
V'da"l V'hamavin Yavin.
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