mentalblog.com comments:
" As Judaism stagnates across denominations and across the globe..."
I do not know what is happening around the globe, but here in Israel Judaism is very, very vibrant.
IMHO the religious Zionists cannot do it alone. It will take a combined effort of all G-d fearing jews to bring about the change.
No, I think Kfar Maimon is the dying wimper of the religious national camp. The secular Zionists died slowly over the years while identifying with Arabs and wanting to finally live the peaceful American dream in Israel. The religious Zionists died slowly as they gave back land, remained outside of Israel and backed off on confrontation with the government. The events at Kfar Maimon are a pro forma protest.
To say Judaism in Israel in vibrant will need some backing up with facts. I don't see that at all. In fact, I see more vibrancy to Judaism in America.
are there any sceptics that can report to us from Israel?
guravitzer, what do you mean: The religious Zionists died slowly as they gave back land, remained outside of Israel and backed off on confrontation with the government.
Who gave back land? What confrontation do you have in mind?
guravitzer, what are you smoking lately?
Tens of thousands of people staying at Kfar Maimon for 3 days in smoldering heat without any creature comforts is “a pro forma protest”? What would you consider a real protest? Do the courageous statements of dover Chabad qualify?
I do not know about any “future mapping” or shmapping, but it seems that, at the very least, these people’s stance is very consequential.
I must write something that is going to get many people angry.
I can understand why Chabad people are against a withdrawal so vehemently, as the Lubavitcher rebbe expressed his opposition to such moves on countless occassions.And his followers are bound to support this position.
I can further understand our sympathy to the Gaza settlers in their angst in terms of losing their homes and their dreams.Lav milsa zutrasa hi !
I can even understand our disappointment in having to give up teritory that countless Jews have given up their lives for.
Furthermore I can understand the unease which Sharon's plan gives us all.Is this a set up for a new Intafada ? (Chas Veshalom Ihope)
But I can not understand the somewhat "Messianic " zeal with which most of the readers here oppose Sharon's plan.
The gedolim in Eretz Israel like Rabbonim Shtainman, Elyashov and Lipkowitz have not come out against Sharon's plan. Rav Shtainman told an American Aguda leader last week that he does not know how this plan will work out and replied "voz bin ich der Urim veTumim ??? In my opinion a highly reasonable reply.Who knows ?
The Gerer, Belzer, Vishnitzer and most other rebbes are also not against the Sharon plan. As a matter of fact only the Bostoner rebbe formerly of Brookline and the Sadigurer rebbe are opposed to Sharon.
In the events of Sabbatai Zevi , Nathan of Gaza proclaimed himself as Sabbatai's prophet. A proof used by most of the gedolim against Nathan was that Nevuah must come from Eretz Israel, and GAZA is not Eretz Israel. Look this up in the zaddik Rabbi Yaakov Sasportas' sefer Tzitz Nobel Zvi, where Sasportas himself supported the idea that Gaza was NOT Israel.
I do not know about the withdrawal, I sought guidance from Gedolim but there is none, so I am confused, but I do know that the future of Am Israel does not rest on Gaza.
Frankly building Jewish schools in Russia, and Argentina is more important.
Setting up a system of FREE Jewish day schools in the US is more important.
Giving all Israeli children some form of education in Tora and Massora is muchmore important !
Passing Mihu Yehudi legislation is more important !
Here I have to support the main line Lubavitcher position that disseminating Judaism is more important than this issue of Gaza.
The present state of Israel is not the Messianic regime we long for . The course of Jewish history was rocky and probably will continue to do so.It has its upas and downs. Our job is observe GODS law and be good people. Hokol bedei Shomayim chutz miYiras Shomayim !
oh, thank god your small brain understands... but only to a small extent - apparently! Regardless of whether gaza is part of israel or not- these are our BROTHERS!!! is THAT too hard for you to comprehend???
beg, both are important. The method is the question, not the importance.
On religious Zionists giving back land, I don't mean directly but indirectly: Although Begin, Netanyahu and Sharon were not religious, they were right wing and closer in ideology to the religious Zionists and had their support. For me to see the Religious Zionist camp truly dedicated to settling Eretz Yisroel would probably mean a revolt against the current form of government.
There are 3+ million Jews in Israel. Only 10s of thousands went to Kfar Maimon? That's desperation. As ar statements by dover chabad. Working the government channels, playing hardball politics to overthrow Sharon would seem a living organization to me. The only time a movement towards giving back land was stopped in its tracks was the overthrow of Shamir by the margin of 2 Chakim. Or the death of Rabin by Yigal Amir. As terrible as it may have been, planted as it may have been by Shavak, Yigal Amir himself truly was ready to go all the way for his goal.
I would hope there is a less extreme solution, but a sit-in at Kfar Maimon doesn't change anything.
Smoozz !I guess that the Moetzes Gedloe Hatorah of the Aguda, of Degel HaTora and the leading rebbes of Ger, Belz , Vishnitz, Modsitz,Seret, Rav Vozner, rav Gestetner Rabbonim Lipkowitz, Shtainman, Elyoshev, Eidelstein, The zaddik Reb Chaim Kanievsky, Reb Chaim Graineman, Reb Nissim Karelitz etc also understand ... but obviously only to a small extent.
At least I am in good company.
On a more serious note, can we not debate this issue without resorting to personal attacks ?
Schneur, with all due respect, those you mentioned have hardly the moral or religious standing of those they personally replaced as Roshei Yeshivos or Rebbeim. I dont want to even discuss the fact that their parties signed off on this for money. At least Neturei Karta, as crazy as they are, they are honest and wont take state money.
Shtainman's reply is the height of faux Litvishe humility. Could you imagine the Lubavitcher Rebbe saying "vos bin ich, der Urim Vtumim?" regarding something as nationally significant as this??? People are looking to him as a religious and moral authority, there are definate halachic issues involved and thats all he can say???
This whole thing reeks. I am on record on this site in favor of disengagement, although it was carried out under far different terms. But the way the religious leaders, the high profile "Siyum Hashas" etc leaders have been silent is stupifying. Again, I think they dont want to bite the hand that feeds them (and I thin Sharon privately loves this)...
What 'revitalization' of Judaism took place in Kfar Maimon??
The 'right' to make the issue of 9 000 people, who should never have moved to Gaza one of Judaisms' fundamental beliefs?Should these people be holding millions of Jews hostage to their crazy messianic dreams?Should soldiers be risking their lives to guard people intent on putting themselves and families in harms way?
I do empathise with these people but they are plain wrong in putting everybody in danger.About being uprooted:Unpleasant? Yes!But they will be compensated and will be able to rebuild.Lets return the program to people who need real help!
Shrek 2
Rav Shteinman is a genuine 'onov' and is held in high esteem by many.How screwed up are we becoming if we really expect every talmid chochom to know the future.Rav Shteinmans sentiment is the overwhelming sentiment of the talmidei chachomim of the chareidi world.Nobody KNOWS which way is the right way regarding the withdrawal.Nobody.
Malach. My feelings, exactly. Any one who saw Rav Shtainman in the US last year, quickly realized his stature. A real anav "miSeride Dor hayoshen".
Attacks on him are pointless. As the WHOLE charedi world , Chassidim, Misnagdim, Ger, Belz, Chebron, Ponoviesz, are all not involved in the current attack on Sharon.
s I said earlier, I do not know what the right side is ? I just don't know .
Reb Chaim Kanievsky by the way is almost universally accepted in Israel as a Zaddik and Poel yeshuoth. Rabbis Shtainman and Elyoshov are also in a different category of gedolim very similiar to their predecessors.
If that's the case why did you Schneur pick on Breslav here
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...02132098/
#87782
Why did you single them out? I think you have a thing for them...
begtodiffer
gaza may or may not be part of EY. the primary issues here would be 1. giving in to terror 2. jewish lives.
please consider that bar egypt there has never been a conssesion to arabs which proved fruitful. i dont know whether you are familiar at all with their mentality, but they view conssesion as weakness. theyre not into comprimising (for long term) and dealmaking is futile with them. heck, they dont trust each other!
ask any jew from morrocco and he'll tell you that. its part of the culture. all they view the pullout is another advancment in their effort to destroy the zionist entity.
which brings us to jewish lives. once they have gaza in their absolut control why should we assume that they wont fire missiles into the cities and settelments of the negev? whats to prevent them from sending bombers into ashkelon, kiryat gat, beer sheva and ashdod? you ask "is this a set up for a new intafada?" in my opinion it will only stregnthen the existing one. but i ask you, given the enormity of the implications do we really want to take that risk?
in conclusion, even if we should say that gaza is of no spiritual consequence, the real issue here ultimately is tel aviv and jerusalem, hence the "messianic" reaction
Ger, Belz , Vishnitz, Modsitz,Seret, Elyoshev, etc. Please name a position by these Rebbes that concerned Jewish people at large. Please name a political view supported by these Rabonim that goes beyond monetary benefit of their particular group, graves or wigs? The question was about the future direction of the Jewish people not the future direction of Modsitz.
they dont have what it takes to last.
the demonstration in kfar meimon wasn't much more than a wonderful display of fraternity.
they're constantly evolving more to the right. theyre more right now than where they were say forty years ago. give 'em another forty-fifty and they'll be virtualy indestinguishble from the chareidi community.
interesting experiment though.
i guess you have Urim Vtumim, sto pratzent
The planned (ch. vesholom) withdrawl is bad all around, no matter how you look at it. Religiosly, economically, militarily, etc. Blame this on heavy U.S. pressure and Sharon's myopia. Israelis never finished or were allowed to finish the job in 67, 73, 82, etc, etc. So the Kassams are the reaction of an undefeated enemy. It's a crime and shame what Sharon is planning to do. What will he do when a plane (chas vesholom) is brought down at Ben-Gurion by a missile fired from Gaza? Insane.
wouldnt go so far tzemach. just me and my little analysis. i say this with no malice or glee, but it so happens that the modern orthodox community in the u.s. is experiencing the same phenomena. theyre having trouble maintaining and defining their identity as well.
and hareidim don't have trouble maintaining and defining their identity? get real.
i dont see how they've evolved ideologicaly. enlighten me.
they're definitely - as a community - not looking inside themselves and asking who they are and what they stand for. (though mind you, it wouldnt at all be a bad idea if they did)
OK, so you think the Lubavitcher Rebbe would have no take on this withdrawl?? Just because times are tough and confusing doesnt mean there is nothing to say. If nothing else, rally the orthdox world for prayer and fasting. Hasnt that always been the jewish way??? Even I know that. Where are the calls for repentance or prayer?? We are talking about giving away Jewish land and evicting Jewish families. Again, I am for the withdrawl but only because of certain 'on the ground' circumstances. But do I not wish for a second the Palestinians would find a way to screw this up? To draw worldwide condemnation? To kill themselves like in Iraq or Lebanon?? Are the Gedolim just going to stand and watch?? I am not much of a believer these days, but Id assume those who are would try reaching out to God....
And I apologize, but I am going to keep on this point: The problem is that these are not Gedolim. The silence is deafening in the Jewish world now. This is a huge deal, with enormous political and security implications. Its times like this that even I as jaded as I am, really miss the Rebbe. Scream a little, ruffle a few feathers. But when Jewish lives and future is at stake, do NOT remain silent.
Maybe Im naive...but I really really hoped that someone would have the guts to scream a bit, to rally the orthdox jewish world. Unity, in anything, can be tremendously powerful. Its generally worked pretty well for us in the past...
Big difference between the Aguda , Degel, Shaas position on Israel and Zionism and th positionS of the Eda, Satmar and the various factions of the NK. If the Breslever were Agudaniks or Degelistin I would never mention this , but the very least most of the mainline Breslover are part of the Eda if not close to the Blau branch of the NK.
TA the kasha is for you on one hand Super Nationalist about territories on the other a great sympathy for a group alligned with the Eda hacharedis that does not recognize the Medina . Hayitochen ??
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