mentalblog.com comments:
I may have missed the post giving the reason for the disappearance of all comments. Why do you delete the comments?
Please delete above comment. Thanks.
my point exactly
Zalman,
In Dr. Brill's Modern Orthodoxy class, the final lecture http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur...?
shiurID=711225 was about Habad as a form of Modern Orthodoxy. Some of this will be presented at the fothcoming NYU conference on Lubavitch.
The ZZ had 6 sons.
Leib was of Kopust
Chaim Schneur Zalman was of Liadi
Yisroel Noach was of Niezhin
Yaakov was of Orsha
Maharash of Lubavich
What happened to Baruch Shalom ?
The Chabadniks of Bobruisk left Chabad and followed the Kaidenover Rebbe.It appears most of the Schneerson grandchildren of the ZZ and their followers deserted Chabad
Not all Lubavitchers followed the Rebbe or the mashicitic garble.
What about the Malochim who would not accept the ZZ or their descendants who became Rebbes.
Did not Harav Shmaryahu Noach of Babroisk call himself Admor
B"H
Shaul Reznik Chabad (a song in Russian)
http://mp3.moshiach.ru/chabad.mp3
meant as a praise but to me it
describes the sympoms of a problem of the 7th generation (if you want to call it a problem) that Chabad is seen as a one stop shop for all your Jewish needs chupah bar-mitzvah kashrut Shabbat etc. on one hand it's good on another hand many people see nothing beyond the shop window part of Chabad don't see the deepth in Chassidus don't understand who and what the Rebbe is and Hashem for that matter either just perform mitzvot mechanicly and those who do study Chassidus most often undertand it on the makif level can get very excited for example about the fact that when person is washes hands nitilat yadaim he is mamshich mochin of atzilus down to the level of midos but can't explain it in a rational manner to a person who doesn't know what mochin or midos or atzilus is many people can't draw connections between Chassidus and Tanach or other parts of Torah can't derive one concept from another and it doesn't bother them because - maase hu ha'ikar-action is the main thing which is of course true but taken to it's logical extreme one can end up in a community of robots...
However see what Tzemach Tzedek writes in Derech Mitzvoisecho Mitzvat Minui haMelech and what is writen in the Tanya about the era of Moshiach and techias ha Meisim and what the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a himself writes in some of the sichos and Mimorim and you'll see this is actually purpose of creation at the time of Moshiach and the revival ofthe "dead" that there will be some who will understand secrets of Torah and experience tremendious giluim and some who will remain kind of "dead" or half alive even while experiencing tremendious mofsim and giluim of yemos haMoshiach and techia (which is now see new article on my blog) but would rationalize them away due to many doubts and lack of emunah pshutah caused by timtum levushim de'Chabad nefesh haelokis see Tanya chapter 8 part 2 and the Rebbes comment there.
two "as"s, as and Ariel Sokolovsky. 1 out of 7 posts is relevant to the subject. Why not moderation of the comments?
To the person who wrote the following
The Chabadniks of Bobruisk left Chabad and followed the Kaidenover Rebbe.It appears most of the Schneerson grandchildren of the ZZ and their followers deserted Chabad
as | 08.04.05 - 6:10 am | #
1) wrong there was no chabadinks in Bobruisk to leave because the youth had left yiddishkeit and so go s for the the rest of the followers of grandchildren of the zemach zedek ONCE AND FOR ALL if not for the Rebbe Rsa"b who founded yeshivas tomchei tmimim which saved the youth the same would be for lubavich and the same happend to Kodenov the youth had gone
2)Did not Harav Shmaryahu Noach of Babroisk call himself Admor
yes he did call himself Admor Babroisk he was rebbe to the Kapaust Chassidim
back to basics
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...-
dynasties.html
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...bad-
stream.html
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...l-
movement.html
All the children of the ZZ became rebbes except for rav Baruch Shalom who was a baal haboys in Lubavitch.Rav Joseph Isaac became a Chagas rebbe in the Ukraine.
The Bobroisker was installed as the chassidic rav in Bobruisk (a large White Russian city) by his uncle the Maharash.
After the petirah of his older brother in 1900 and later the Rezizer rebbe he assumed the Nesiuth of Kopust as well , so he was rav and rebbe.
After the petirah of the Bobruisker in 1924 the Kopuster chasidim either became Lubavitch or remained without a rebbe. Bobruisk -Kopust did have some young people like rabbis Zevin, Lubanov, Telushkin, Barbash and Kpnis of Avratch.I assume there were more too.
The Kuidenover did not get followers from chabad. Punkt farkert, some Kuidenover became Lubavitch after the petirah of their older dor of rebbes in Kuidenov and the move of that dynsty to Baranowitz. .
It was after the petirah of the Strassjeler and his son 100 years earlier that some Chabad joined Kuidenov.
The present day rebbe of Kuidenov rabbi Yakov Meir Ehrlich is a distinguished young man with scholarly abilities and a seriousness that I did not note elsewhere.
I am happy that at least 1 White Russian dynasty some how continues.
Kopuster,
According to
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/...isk/
byb139.html
In 1901 R. Shemerihu Nokh Shniuerson opened in his royal court a yeshiva Khab"ad, young boys studied there under the supervision of a special supervisior of dietary law, and students which the Rebbe alone burdened himself with. Besides Gemora, which they studied, they absorbed themselves in the words of the sages, and not evasive of the pilpul, the students every day studied a chapter in the "Tane" [early Mishna rabbis] or in other Khsidic texts.
Is this correct ?
Schneur wrote: "All the children of the ZZ became rebbes except for rav Baruch Shalom who was a baal haboys in Lubavitch."
Another son of the ZZ who was not a Rebbe was Reb Yaakov. He married a granddaughter of Rebbetzin Freida (Bas Admur Hazoken). Reb Yaakov passed away in the early 1860's while his father was still alive. His son was R. Schneur who was a son in law of his uncle R. Chaim SZ of Liadi.
There is an opinion that there was yet another son of the ZZ, Yechiel that died in infancy (Lishmoa Ozen, Duchman).
On the subject of Rebbetzin Freide, her son was R. Aharon of Kremenchug who was married to the daughter of R. Nachman of Breslov. R. Aharon was later the second husband of Rebbetzin Sarah (daughter of the Mitteler) and mother of Rebbetzin Rivkah Aishes HaMaHaRaSH
After the passing of the Mittler Rebbe, R. Aharon was of the candidates the ZZ proposed should become Rebbe.
To *as* look what is writen abou the yeshivah of the bobroisker in the link you provided
Only the yeshiva of Harov Sh. Y. Shnieurson then maintained itself. The number of students, in truth, declined in 1901 to 50, but the classes were conducted normally, certainly with the spirit of the times, the growing students were given permission to study Russian and other worldly subjects, because "without knowing modern times even rabbis won't come out."
does that mean that in the
bobroisker yeshivah one learned secular subjects?
"R. Shemerihu Nokh Shniuerson" - as, are you doing this on purpose? i mean the spelling.
In the various rabbinical conferences sponsored by the Czarist regime, the Bobroisker and the Lubavitcher rebbes both participated. The general issue was the role of secular education in the Cheder and the need for rabbis with some secular training.It is reported that the Bobroisker took a more liberal position on both these relatd issues than did the RashaB.(See the memoirs of Isaac Schneersohn for a detailed account of these conferences.)
The Bobroisker "kibbutz" produced many fine young Morei Horah who made a name for themselves such as I listed earlier, Rabbis Nissan Telushkin, Avrohom (K)Lubanov , Rabbi SY Zevin, Rabbi A. Kipnis and others.
Its a shame that none of his grandchildren accepted the suggestion in their zeide's Will to take over as rebbe.Of course the bigger tragedy was that the Bobroisker's son Rabbi Menachem Mendel was killed by the "White" Russian anti-Communist bandits in the Russian Civil War Hashem Yinkom Damo !
Onr rav Barbash was a choshever Yid in Tel Aviv a Lelever hasid. The other 2 were big "kenner" of DACH in Tel Aviv.
MIB
little detail: r' aharon (after whom the raza was named) was from shklov, not krementchug.
on the subject of the bobroisker installed there by the maharash:
the story is told that there were those in bobroisk who didnt want to accept him (out of kano'us it seems) and there homes burnt down as a result of the maharash's k'peideh
Faaruq-The spellings were as per translationfrom the website.I did not alter them.
Schneur-According to website stated previously with Yizkor records R MM was killed by Nazis.
How was Rav Barbush related to Schneersons.Thanks for clarifying about Reb Nachman.For some reason Chabad do not acknowledge
MIB- Sefer Tzezoim definitely states
R Aharon was from Kremenchug
I have an interest in Chabad genealogy and trying to differentiate between fact and fiction.Also the politics within family for power.Nothing has changed in 150 years.Learnt more from this blog then getting answers from Chabad.
I disagree with the assertion that there is a 'modern' wing of lubavitch that will, someday, choose a new rebbe. The fact is the so-called 'modern is nothing more than 'lubavitch lite'. There is no underlying shita behind being a 'modern' lubavitcher. There is no 'modern' lubavitcher rov that is asked shaalos and gives 'heterim' for how people act and dress in crown heights as well as some shluchim. I really doubt these very same people need a rebbe in their lives to complicate matters and distract them from their mundane existance.
Actually I think it the Chareidi element in Chabad (as apposed to the "shpitz" and the "modern" factions) that will either leave, or hopefully make a new Rebbe or another type of manhig ruchni.
I wonder waht percentage of Chabad still considers itself Chareidi?
Sto Protzent,
As I mentioned, Reb Aharon of Kremenchug was the second husband of Rebbetzin Sarah, he was in a previous marriage the son in law of nachman of breslov.
Sarah's first husband was R. Aharon of Shklov.
On a personal note: I consider myself Chareidi, and I have tried my hardest to steer clear of the "modern" wing that some of you identified.
Regardless, I was interested to hear a number of weeks ago that the Toldos Avraham Yitzchok Rebbe (the son of the Toldos Aharon ztz''l, who was the son-in-law of the Shomer Emunim ztz''l) apparently declared himself a Chossid of Chabad according to the Shita of the Strashelyer. As a result, his Chassidim have begun to learn R' Aharon's (The Strashelyer's) seforim in great detail.
There's your breakaway: Chabad-Strashelye/Toldos Avraham Yitzchok.
I can't confirm that this maase is true (any help?), but I do know that the TAY Rebbe was very friendly with the Rebbe through some of the machlokes that occurred in the late 80s/early 90s, crying while instructing his Chassidim not to get involved with anything anti-Chabad.
Here's a thought: Is it possible that the rigorous Avoda demanded by the TAY Rebbe (and the "Alter Rebbe," the Shomer Emunim himself) is similar to the kind of Avoda that was demanded by the Mittler Rebbe and the Strashelyer both?
The Strashelyer created a self-contained system of haskolo/avoda in his seforim Sharei HaYichud v'HaEmuna, and Sharei Avoda. Perhaps a system like that is just what we need.
I recognize that this is not a practical suggestion for our purposes. But, I'm curious what you and your readers thing,
1) we chassdishe yiden hold that a yeshivah that learns secular subject cannot produce people with mesiras nefesh so the bochurim that had studied in bobroisk where secular subjects has been studied nothing remained of them because they had no mesiras nefesh on the other hand the temmimim who came from yeshivas tomchei tmmimim where there was no secular subjects had mesiras nefesh for yidishkeit so thats why Lubavich survived
2) regarding the various rabbinical conferences sponsored by the Czarist regime, The rsha"b of Lubavich was at odds with all the participants the chassidshe & the litvishe who all held that secular subjects need to be studied in the yeshivos & chadorim the only rav who was with the rsha"b the whole way that secular subjects are not allowed in yeshivos & chadorim was Reb Chaim From Brisk and because of secular subjects the rsa"b opposed the founding of agudas yisroel because he saw in germany who were the leaders of agudas yisroel the influence of secular subjects had on the german yidden he did not want that russia should be influenced by the german agudah
3) Rabbis Zevin & Tulskin were from the mizrachi
That translation from Jewishgen re Bobruisk posted above by as is comical and a good illustration of what could happen when a translator lacks familiarity with the subject of the material which he is translating.
Mashgiach - a spiritual mashgiach, or mashpia in Lubavitch terminology, was erroneously translated as a food supervisor (kashrus) and Tanya was made into Tanna - early mishna Rabbis.
s far as I am aware no secular subjects were formally studied at Bobroisk. This was a "kibbutz "not a real yeshiva.Mizrachi, Aguda whatever it produced at least a half dozen world renowned gedolim.
The Rashab originally supported the Aguda and signed off on several preliminary calls for the organization.
Only when he saw the influence of German laymen did he halt his support.
By the way many Lubavitcher chasidim remained prominent in the Aguda like rav Noe in Jslm, Reb Mordechai Dubin in Riga and still others in Latvia .
the last Lubavitcher rebbe did not lose any sleep in the fact that his chasid rav Zevin was a Mizrachi or that other Lubavitcher were in the Mizrachi like rabbi Ellenson (Israel) Telushkin (USA). He certainly did not hold it against his friend Zalman Shazar for belonging to MAPAI.
Finally if the Rashab was so firmly opposssed to secular studies, why does or did TTL on Bedford and Dean and Ocean Pkwy have a secular studies dept.And more importantly if secular studies was so antithetical to the survival of Yiddishkayt, why did the Lubavitcher rebbe himself study such subjects ?
Schneur
I guess in that sense "America iz andersh". You could not start a school in America in those days without secular studies, and don't tell me about "Nesivos Olam". At the first oppourtunity a Yeshivah was started without secular studies, named "oholei Torah".
The Rebbe the Rayatz said over and over America iz nit Andersh. If it was different in secualr studies , I would love to know how its not different.
My point is that all Lubavitcher in the US speak lashon hamedina. No shliach could function speaking only Yiddish. The shluchim dress modern , give sermions in English , appear on TV and in the media.
Pray tell me what exactly did the maskillim in Russia want ? they do wanted rabbis who spoke lashn Hamedian, dressed modern, able to commuicate with secular Jews and Christians , give a speech once in a while etc.
Yet secualr knowledge does not seem to have hurt Lubavitch in the US ???
The bottom line question here is: If the Rebbe Rashab would see what is going on today (at the moment I am not getting into the current state of affairs, just the Rebbe's own שיטות ), would he recoil in disgust, or would he approve?
Essentially the same litmus test that applies with regard to every aspect and stage of the Jewish מסורה.
Empirically, the story of the FR having read ספרים חיצוניים, and the Rebbe Rashab's alleged response, gives us some insight into the issue. The Rebbe Rashab accepted the Frierdeker Rebbe reading the very same books that were getting other bochrim kicked out of yeshiva. Is the reason nepotism? פרוטקצי'ה, as they call it? Or is something deeper at work?
On the one hand, everything in the world, without exception, was created solely for G-d's glory; hence, nothing can be a true סתירה to G-dliness. There are obviously limits to this; עבודה זרה, in גילויים at least, is indeed an affront to G-d. On the other hand, the Sanhedrin had to know the הלכות of that as well; this, the Rebbe explains, constituted the בירור thereof.
The question is, ווער האט אזעלכע ברייטע פלייצעס so as to take on himself the entry into the "modern" world without being affected. If someone accepts the Rebbe's credentials enough to consider him a (the) Rebbe, I fail to see why this should be an issue.
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