mentalblog.com comments:
"father-in-law" is correct. it is a P"N written to the previous Rebbe.
ok, i got confused "in law".
you were correct to confuse it - it is badly written ("his father-in-law" could mean either one of them - it is only the content of the note that makes it clear). but it is still a very moving and appropriately sad (for 9 days) account.
interestingly it was a PN for "his" family only and on the face of it excluded his wife and himself.
I think the quote is partial - the entire P"N was published in facsimile elsewhere.
Did you see the facsimile of some letters written by the Rebbe & the Rebbetzin to the family in Yekaterinoslav/Dnepropetrosk? These letters are part of Reb Levik's archive discovered recently in Dnepropetrosk and where published last year by Chabad of Dnepropetrosk as a fairly tasteful small booklet.
In one of the letters form Paris the Rebbe tells his parents that he has finished his studies and is looking for work. He also alludes to Leibel in one of the letters. A letter from the Rebbtzin to her in-laws is also there. Worth a read.
Lets not forget the following: When Israel A.L.died , the rebbe got his widow a job teaching English in a London Lubavitch school, thus giving her a means of financial support.
I am amazed that he did not use his influence to convince the widow to educate Dalia in a Orthodox manner.
Some continue to ask "why to write and what others might think", the answer is because the official Lubavitch historiography is a propaganda charade void of truth and soul. By the way of an example here is a quote illustrating how Yisrael Aryeh Leib's life looks from the vantage point of an official Lubavitcher history hacker:
http://www.chabadcenters.com/scr...?
ArticleID=1262
The pious G-d fearing chasid, intelligent and understanding pleasant with good characteristics Yisrael Aryeh Leib was born in Nikolayev on 16 (?) Sivan, 5609. Stayed for a period of time in Leningrad, where the previous Rebbe showed him great fondness. The Chassidim, too, liked him and enjoyed barraging him with a variety of questions on Halacha, Chassidut etc. In 5690 (1930) he left the Soviet Union and settled in Berlin, later leaving for the Holy Land where he married. He spent his last years in Liverpool, England, passing away at an early age on 13 Iyar, 5712 (1952). By request of his brother the Rebbe, he was brought to the Holy Land and he was interred in the Holy city of Tzfŕt.
:(
What exactly has you all aggravated here?
Is it the beginning? It's a translation from the hebrew title Vasik V'Chossid, and it is given to anyone.
chabakuk elisha, you fortunate enough not grow up in a totalitarian country not to develop a revoltion for the constant lies. Not to mention that you are ensconced in an organization who's goal is crude propaganda at all costs. I am also starting to think that this blog might just be a tad above your level. :-:
This is too silly. Which part of this translation from the "Hayom Yom" do you object to? Is it the pro-forma barrage of titles that are similar to what goes on a "matzevah" of every Jew? Are you are looking for "the soul of the man" in a footnote to his brother's biography? Good luck.
Btw, the same link has this invitation in the intro:
"…if you have little-known biographical information about the Rebbe, please e-mail us at: editor@chabadonline.com"
Go for it.
P.S. chabad.org people are as far removed from “hacks” as anyone I ever met in my life. If you had any idea what these people were like, you’d not use such language about them.
Honestly,
I don't like the legacy building that goes on either. But I don't find it as egregious as you do.
It is unnecessary for them speak ill of the deceased, and there's no need to hang the laundry out for all to see (I think that if we look at it as if it was personal information about ourselves we would quickly agree).
I also think that this kind of thing goes on everywhere, and although it's distasteful, it is not the outrage that you find it to be. You seem to take pretty minor ant-hills and blow them into mountains. The truth is not as good as the sugar-coaters say, and not as bad as the special investigative reporters report.
I don't buy the mazeiva defence for one second. Imagine that "the author" of Tanhach decided to follow your rules. Then instead of the Book that is at the core of our civilization we would have gotten a stone with some flowery descriptions, instead of a map on how to struggle and seek Hashem we would have gotten a song not even worthy the idol worshipers, instead of Yaakov struggling with angels we would have gotten an eunuch sitting at farbrengens.
DELETED
no Anonymous comments allowed
Edited By Siteowner
TA, this is a very interesting though. I will try to post some thoughts regarding this later b"n.
It is really worth discussing why it is and how it happened that we do not have real rabbinic literature (save for the previous Rebbe’s diaries) that speaks of the personal spiritual struggles of the tzaddikkim.
But for now I just want to disabuse you of the notion of "defense". I am not defending anything. I merely pointed to the context of the footnote that got you upset.
Berl,
Very true; and just look what happened with "The making of a Gadol."
But if you're interested, there are a couple interesting diaries along those lines out there.
One that I know of is the Piacezna Rebbe's diary (available in Hebrew & English), and quite interesting; also, I think Reb Nosson of Breslov's diary should be in print.
instead of Yaakov struggling with angels we would have gotten an eunuch sitting at farbrengens.
And can you imagine Havatik HaChasid Esav?
good one, rebeljew.
Ishmoel settled with Hagar in a desert, where Rebbe Avrohom "showed him great fondness."
Tzemach,
Avrohom did show Eisav "great fondness...
TA
fyi, the Rebbe used the same titles when writing to Shazar, a well-known irreligious Jew, so why are you getting yourself about it?
Nochum Goldshmidt said that the Frierdiker Rebbe was very fond of Leibel and when he saw that Laibel was studying other things also he told him that although he was studied he would never succeed in finishing (ie. getting a degree) and so it was that in Russia he was forced to run away and in Israel he didn't have the money to stay in University (I beleive he worked as a librarian also) and then in England he died at a young age.
Also the Panim are printed in the back of Mundshine's book (Otzar Minhagei Chabad V'chu'-Elul,Tishrei) and they include the Rebbe and Rebbetzins names.
TA & rebeljew,
I trust you can come with more variations on the same joke but I would rather see a more intellectually stimulating discussion.
The history of idealization of past heroes and villains is long. It goes back to the times of the Tannoim and Ammaroim (anyone remember how the Talmud deals with Dovid & Bathsheva story?). Certainly kabboloh & chassidus glowingly describes Eisav, Ishmael, Korach and many other Jewish "sinners" in Tanach as lofty souls - it "shows them great fondness" and calls them "vassikim & chassidim – aher kavonosom lesheim shomaim hoiso".
The real question is why is there this tendency in Torah itself and does it help a Jew in his "struggle to seek G-d"?
The real question is why is there this tendency in Torah itself and how does it help a Jew in his "struggle to seek G-d"?
Why do you object to the Rebbe writing about his brother in a tone of deep affection? I would expect nothing less from my brother, regardless of what a rasha I am.
Many of the poems etc of the late chief rabbi Kuk express personal spiritual struggles.His conflict between hlacho and spirituality.Very spiritual and honest !
So too in some writings of the writer Reb Hillel Zeitlin.
Of course the Likute Moharan also contains much such materials. Rav Nachman was a very sensative zaddik.
The memoirs of the Adereth (the shver of rav Kuk) and Rabbi Leone DE Modena of Italy also contain notes on such struggles although much more hidden.
Also Reb Yankev Emden's (YAAVETZ)autobiography also mentions spiritual stuggles he had and nisyonoth he had. Please read the uncensored edition published in Jerusalem in I think 1980 by R. Abraham Bik.
The nephew of the Stefaneshtisher rebbe also a rebbe in Rumania (he deid in Vienna) also published philosophic books dealing with spiritual questions.
The scholar david Assaf has published an article about his and another article about a son in law of the Belzer rov whose corrspondence was located in an Israeli archive. that s.i. law rabbi Twerski expresses much conflict over chassidic identity.
his should keep the readers very busy.
Berl, to say that post Tanach Jewish literature is about embellishing is an odd opinion.
Embellishing? Who said anything about embellishing? I was talking about a positive description or explanation of what seem al pi peshat negative events & people.
The difference must be noted between the "embellishment" of acknowledged villains (Esav, Pharaoh, etc.) בפנימיות הענינים, and the "whitewashing" of prominent figures (Re'uven, David/Batsheva, etc.) in peshat. Whereas the former poses absolutely no contradiction to the fact that in עולם הזה למטה מע"ט they were undisputably bad people (ואדרבה; כל הגבוה יותר נופל מטה מטה יותר ), the latter is truly what relates to the matter at hand.
I presume that everyone here has knowledge of the Reshimah where the Rebbe relates the FR's dream about RYAL and the Rebbe Rashab. That anecdote, if to be taken at face value (and I do not see any other way for someone who takes the Rebbe seriously to take it) falls neatly between the two categories. What it does raise is the fact that there indeed was/is more to the situation than meets the eye.
770 bochur, could you be less cryptic? I am starting to think that people who are immersed in Jewish learning are only trained to speak in dashed lines.
Dalia Rotman's Yad Vashem filing is dated 1993. Deutsch may have spoken with her before that. Anyway, victims often have multipile filings, one from a sibling, another from a neighbor, a third from a cousin, and so on. So there may actually be a Yad vashem filing made by the RAMASH for Dalia's family.
bochur,the story of the FR's dream does not render an opinion on YALS or level of his observance etc. btw, for some weird reason, Deutsch concludes from the story that YALS was still religious at the time.
ta, this is not about the truth, embellishing etc. this is about כבוד. the only importance attached to the persona of YALS is his relation to his brother and (to a much lesser degree) to his father. the persistent discussion that he was less than meticulously observant jew is not respectful to his brother. i understand that the idiots who exaggerated his chassidic and halachic merits drive you nuts. the correct way, i think, would have been silence. if they may completely omit the daughters of the FR from his bio in יום היום in order not to mention HS, they could have been more discreet re: YALS.
as to the titles such as ותיק חסיד etc. when you are writing a formal letter designating you addressee as “Sir”, “gentlemen” it does not necessarily mean you are bestowing titles of honor upon them or commenting on their noble lineage.
OK, what is FR's dream? I don't remember the story.
Being that I do not trust Deitch (or oneof the sources he brings), I think I'll sit this one out. I'd be happier reading a bio written by Tzemach independently.
On his description in Hayom Yom, why or how the title was given is for me Rebbeshe things, but in the history given it's understand, we record the things that we want to remember. I don't really care if he was a Trotskyite and non-religious (being anti is possibly a fiction of Deitch), so I don't care if it's recorded. I do care about his relationship with the Rebbe, the FR and the Chasidim.
faruq, I will remain stubbornly in the school of thought that wants to see a full multidimensional persona in YAL and the Rebbe himself. Others may prefer a more idealized "embellished" image. I sneer at that. I have no problem admiring Dovid knowing what happened with Bat Shevah, etc. I detest caricatures.
i see no relevance in YALS and his relationship with chasidism and judaism, other than those facts that shed some light on the Rebbe’s biography and circumstances of his upbringing. again, bare facts of one’s life do not necessarily constitute the “truth” you are seeking.
faruq, we will have to disagree on this one.
TA wrote: I sneer at that. I have no problem admiring Dovid knowing what happened with Bat Shevah, etc.
Well, I would also not admire Dovid Hamelech any less without the Gemora admonishing us that kol mi sheoimer Dovid choto.... And I would also have no problem with the other multi-dimensional stuff you suggest, on the contrary - I would love it.
But: sneer all you want - that Gemora is there! The super-human description of the tzadik is there in Tanya kadisha, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
To me it is not all that interesting what you or I prefer. I would much prefer to understand what the Teiroh wants me to think when it gives me the "positive – perfect" (or as you say "embellished") side to all these people and events...
riga 1929. the Rebbe was summoned to the FR. The FR said YAL (who was in leningrad) sends his regards to his brother. to the rebbe's suggestion that there was a letter, the FR responds that there was no letter. a night before, the FR saw the Father (RASHAB) saying a maamar and YAL among several people was there as well listening to the maamar. The RASHAB asked ווער איז דער יונגעמאן?
But then after a pause said: איך קען דאך דיר
the FR also said that there was a certain unclear point in the RASHAB's maamar that should be clarified with YAL who was present.
כל מי שאומר דויד חטא אינו אלא טועה - maamar musgar - does not mean that David had not sinned. it applies only to one aspect of his misbehavior, albeit a grave one, adultery. according to all the opinions in the gemora, David had sinned! in killing Uriah and in taking his possession - Uriah's wife. moreover, the gemora chastises Rabbi, who being an einikel is trying to acquit David from other sins as well.
First of all Tzemach, I appreciate the criticism. I should be making myself more clear.
Next. This for faruq. Nowhere did I say that the dream implies that RYALS was observant. What it does raise, I said, is the fact that there indeed was/is more to the situation than meets the eye. What you yourself refer to as "more than the bare facts". I stand by that.
What's more, from this Reshimah is evident that RYALS was a person worth some attention in his own right, besides being just the Rebbe's brother.
as to the titles such as ותיק חסיד etc. when you are writing a formal letter designating you addressee as “Sir”, “gentlemen” it does not necessarily mean you are bestowing titles of honor upon them or commenting on their noble lineage.
There is a comment by the Rebbe - I do not remember the reference - to the effect that the FR does not "hand out" titles, and when he writes וו"ח, אי"א and the like, he means it. Even though at face value, it looks like handing out titles is exactly what the FR did. Perhaps it takes a Rebbe to see a וו"ח אי"א where we see only scum of the earth...
the same maamar musgar - the tradition does not attach an image of perfection to David and other judaic heroes in the same סוגיא.
bochur, "there is a comment by the Rebbe - I do not remember the reference - sichos instead of "hesped" after the histalkus in 1950.
Thanks. And what do you make of it?
Faruq,
In 1929 the Frierdike Rebbe saw the Rebbe Rashab say a ma'amer? Was this a dream?
bais harav, yes, see above.
Now we are starting with 'bobbeh mayseh' dreams?
Tzemach, where are when we need the topic steered back to rationality.
malach, angels always bring us back to earth ;)
1)The rebbe was makpaid to sell the chometz of his sister in law if you look at the shtar mchiras chometz that the rebbe signed there is a apartment in london this is where Mrs Gurari lived even though the years when the rebbe sold the chometz of his sister in law she was no relation to the rebbe al pi halocha how did the rebbe do it
2) to Schneur to the best of my knowledge in 1953 when the rebbe sister in law became a widow there was no Lubavich school in london
kopuster, regarding the 1953 Lubavitch School in London:
ye geven, nit geven - a maaseh shehoyo! :)
Reb Berl from Keser Hamelech
Schnuer ask,s a kasha if the rebbe got for his sister in law a job in lubavich-london why could he not wory about her ruchinus
the tiretz is
the rebbe did not get her a job in lubavich because there was no where the rebbe could get her job so there was no gashimus if there is no gashmius so he could not do anything about her ruchinus
kopuster - I hate to have to explain jokes. But here we go:
what I wrote translates as "It did happen, it didn't happen. Who cares? It is a true story!"
Still want to give me a serious answer? :)
The story about the school is as far as I am aware true. The sister in law lived in Londn many years and at SOME POINT she taught "limude Chol" in a Lubavitch school there.
I have heard that she was not well off financially after her husband's premature petirah.
One can not but wonder why important people in NY like the Boba Channa Schneerson did not influence her to send Dalia to a Orthodox school, or better, bring mother and daughter to NY.
Did Rebetzzin Chana Schneerson ever see her eynikel (Dr. Dalia Roitman) until she died ? Did she ever see her daughtr in law ?
whoa TA you sure know how to apark interesting conversation!
just a couple of things about the rebbes brother:
770bochur: small detail: correct me if im wrong here but the FR dosent refer to a dream. he calls it a chizoyoin - a vision.
schneur: regarding convincing r. gurari to be frum. an interesting point. from what i understand the rebbe didnt want chabad in israel having an official shaichus with his niece and her family, which i guess would include making her frum etc.
i know people who know the family somewhat (the boys are supposedly brilliant) and they have no kesher to chabad.
chassidm who were in leningrad during that period remember r' leviks to sons coming to the rebbe together. one was said to be quiet and introverted, while leibl was outgoing and a pleasure to farbreng with. they would come to him for chazzoro after the rebbe would say chassidus. his chush hasboro, they say, was phenomenal. i heard from chassidim in tel aviv that he would come to farbreng every so often, (amol mit a bord, amol opgegolt) and he was a peh mapik margoliyos.
the FR begged RYAL not to go to university when he was in leningrad. he promised to learn with him every day. keyadua he was very fond of him
just conjecture here, but maybe he could be considered a noifel of sorts. maybe like the volper. who knows.
the whole situation there is interesting especialy given that the rebbe made a huge deal out him.
The school was started a few years later, who said she got the job right away?
I believe there was a story about the Rebbe writing fake letters from his brother in England so his mother doesn’t find out about the premature death of her son. This is what I heard.
Reb berel thanks
Schneur: please check up in larger then life that a bit of time Ms gurari and her daughter lived in the heimshe area of london and she went to a heimsh school
Did Ms Dalia Roitman ever meet with her uncle the rebbe?
kopuster
i believe she did. as a matter of fact they say she picked the rebbe up outside 770. in a sportscar nochdertzu.
1.She once gave the Rebbe a ride back to 770 when she came to visit him. She was driving a red sports car.
2. The rumor is that the Rebbe asked her if she would leave the children by him (he would take care of them). I don't know if this is true.
3.When he died the Rebbe put on white sneakers and painted them black and he continued to visit his mother all through the shiva (as he did every day) so that she would suspect nothing. He also wrote letters in YALs handwriting and arranged through Chassidim to have them mailed through England. This continued all the way until her petirah in Tishrei 1964. M'zugt that with all of this Rebbetzin Chana knew exactly what had happaned. There is a fascanating thing that we see (it was on one of the Living Torah videos) by a Yud Shevat Farbrengen the Rebbe gave YALs papers to a Professor from Canada (?) and asked him to explain them in a paper. What is amazing is that the Rebbe tells him that "my brother died...years ago" (I need to look up exactly what year this was)and the amount of years that the Rebbe mentioned comes out to be exactly the amount of years from Rebbetzin Chana was niftar.
Did anybody ever hear the story that when the Rebbezin was niftar the rebbe asked that all her jewellery should be sent to his niece Ms Roytman?
TA, regarding the Rebbe faking letters as if they were from Rya"l, a facsimilie of one was published in
I recall seeing the will regarding the huiz zachen in print. It may be part of the secular will not well publicized.
Did Dalia collect her stuff ?
The writings of Marc Gurari were published (I saw several articles years ago directed by the fine bibliographic work of Barry Gourary) His mentor Froelich published them. I think the rebbe asked Prof. Paul Rosenbloom of Teacher's College Columbia University to be meayyin in them.
There is a famous story about the Rebbe asking Prof. Rosenblum to publish a paper of his brother. Prof. Rosenblum did indeed take the paper, and it was published in February of 1978.
The story has been published several times, (googling them will yield the online versions), and I have heard most of the story first hand from him.
This will comment on both this discussion regarding the Rebbe's brother, and also your other discussion elsewhere regarding whether the Rebbe was "introverted" and basically aloof and unapproachable; and in a way it's the same answer: The Rebbe had a very warm and caring relationship spanning many years with my esteemed late in-laws, Prof. Paul and Rivelle Rosenbloom, Z"L. At the Rebbe's behest, my mother-in-law actually founded the organization F.R.E.E.; and intially F.R.E.E. was actually "headquarted" in their apartment on 120th St. on Columbia campus in Manhattan. My in-laws (and especially my mother-in-law) sent and received back a large volume of correspondence with the Rebbe, and in addition sent and received many messages to and from the Rebbe, principally through the Rebbe's secretary Rabbi Krinsky. And the issues discussed involved a whole range of issues, many quite personal, and the Rebbe's answers always reflected a great deal of warmth and caring, as well as deep wisdom and understanding. Did he "reveal" much about himself, per se? No. Nor would that have been at all expected. Pirke Avos is quite clear in admonishing one to not get too close to a Rebbe. And yet, through the Rebbe's instigation, my in-laws in fact did get "involved" with the Rebbe's brother and his daughter Dalia, and also (and moreso) with Barry and Mina Guary. The Rebbe certainly did (and this is actually captured on a video) ask my father-in-law, who was a Professor of Mathematics at Columbia, to look over a mathematical research paper and assess whether it might be publishable; and initially he wouldn't reveal who had written the paper. My father-in-law looked it over, and told the Rebbe about half the paper contained new research findings, and the other half contained things that had already been published by others, indicating the author was probably out of touch with the modern literature; and he initially suggested that it would be better for the author to update the paper himself. It was only then that the Rebbe revealed it was written by his brother, and that his brother was niftar, so he (the Rebbe) would appreciate my father-in-law's help. My father-in-law in fact did work on and "clean up" the paper, and then had it published under the Rebbe's brother's byline, in a mathematical research publication. And the Rebbe sent him (I have a copy) a very warm letter of appreciation. All this is fairly well known. What is not well known is that when Dalia came to New York (and it is my understanding that she did see the Rebbe then), the Rebbe asked (through Rabbi Krinsky) that my in-laws have Dalia over for dinner; and they did. They also had an at one time close relationship with Barry and Mina; in fact, for a time, Mina was their stockbroker. I well remember speaking to them at my sister-in-law's chasseneh. That relationship ended rather abruptly after the great book episode. All of which is to say that, far from being aloof, the Rebbe was very concerned with people, per se, and certainly including members of his own family, and expended a great deal of misias nefesh in empathizing with and counseling people on a whole plethora of issues and concerns. And that is what communicated itself so vividly, the fact that he indeed did care very deeply!
Initially I wanted to comment about the alleged typo, which was not; the beginning "L'orer hassodim rabim" suggested a familiar nusach of a P'N, but well, others pointed it out already.
On a separate issue: "Vasik V'Chossid" title is given to anyone, what a joke.
BTW, something that was once said to R' Levik, "Du host a sheine M'eB'eL (furntiture)" - what was the fate of the other brother Berel - was he perished during WWII or something?
Interesting, Mordechai Gurary is my great grand-father, still in all, my grandfather (his son) is in denial regarding the rebbe's brother
Commenting by HaloScan
