mentalblog.com comments:
Having met and known Rebetzen Chanah Gurary a"h, and seen her numerous times, I state with absolute certainty that the alleged picture of her in the hospital is most definitely not a picture of her.
I have to say that I don't have a 100% trust in the source of the picture. But there are other Gourary pictures that are indisputable and this lends some credence to Yakov Shimon's assertion that he has a file that was entrusted to him by Barry, the contents of the file were to be released in case something happens to Barry as it happened with his mother. Tha's what Yakov Shimon wrote here.
The pictures of Barry and his mother that he posted are not new pictures. They were printed in the Alegemeiner Journal during the courtcase. Actually one of the pictures were printed there again recently, when they reported the passing of Barry Gurary.
This picture is part of the police file that investigated the attempted murder of chana gurary
shneur,can you please check if those pictures (not the one from the police files)were ever published somewhere else.
It is a picture, it's not a picture, he is a favorite nephew, he is a demon, why are we forgetting that thse pricks asked this off-center bochur to help them slip the books out?! Uriah, Shmurayah.
Now that I give Tzemach ammunition to go after me for repeating the same thing over and over again, let's run through the facts one more time: A) Chana and Barry asked this bochur to help shlep the books, B) The Rebbe spoke publicly about the theft of books from the FR library, C) said bochur went upstairs and threw some punches (he's a hefty guy, so even if the picture is false I would assume a lot of damage was done).
From this facts, you are assuming: The Rebbe wanted Chana punched. The Rebbe spoke about her specifically. The bochur punched her out because the Rebbe told him to. The Rebbe was happy afterwards that she was punched.
Please relay the proof for each of those assumptions. Until then, this court is tossing out the file.
guravitzer, no one ON THIS BLOG claims that the Rebbe directed this. I already stated this specifically:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...der-
sister.html
But there are some fringe elements like Ariel, who take this kepshuto:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...74648176/
#92655
Nonetheless, you run into the infallibility doctrine's big net.
a) Either the Rebbe did not know, in which case you cannot hold that he is some omniscient Navi.
b) or, the Rebbe did know, in which case he sanctioned the beating of an octogenarian woman.
Somehow, I prefer to think A (and according to TA, that is the view of all mentalbloggers). If someone says B (as Ariel's comment implies), how can it be justified? Is there a C that I am missing?
If so, what has become of the infallibility doctrine?
I know that TA hates links, but maybe he'll let this one go.
The story of the Maggid and Reb Aahron Karliner may be your option C.
http://judaicaplus.com/tzadikim/
...page=karlin.htm
BDA
How does that apply here?
I just presented that as food for thought. If you see no relevance, ignore it.
Come on-there were always things going on in 770, especially from the Bachurim. Don't make it sound like whatever happaned there was under the Rebbe's directive. The difference between how the Rebbe ran Lubavitch and how some other Rebbes ran their sects (Satmar (under R' Yoel),YBC"L Skver, Vishnitz) is like the difference between a menahel and a mechanech. A menahel makes rules and if you don't keep to them you're out and a mechanech tries to teach by example and gives you room to choose for yourself (like the diffrence between Chabad and Chagas-Tzaddik Be'emunoso Yichayeh or Yichyeh).
There was a time when the Bachurim chased after one of Ziknei Anash with a knife because he didnt have proper kavod for the Rebbe, and even with the Parshas HaSeforim itself there were stories with CL and BA who got pushed around Simchas Torah...[I am not going into the details of these stories becasue its not important now].
And to say that the whole Lubavitch including the Shluchim around the world have to make a Chesbon becasue of what one Bachur did is absurd and to say that twenty years later we still have to make a chesbon ??? Either you are blinded vy your hate for Lubavitch (like SR) or you need to see a doctor.
Umsaymim B'tov
Sam and Guravitzer are not your ordinary shpitz but the are a prime example of the denial and moral blindness. I can not believe at what I am reading. I mean you fellows don't even begin to see what is the issue here. And this again is an example of Rebbes failure in this regard if even today you are so misguided that you can't see that there were chain of events and great travesty. Sam I think I did ban you at some point. I wish you would leave the conversation now. You are not welcomed here. Your accusations of Chabad hatred are tired, give it up and go away.
Chagas-Tzaddik Be'emunoso Yichaye coarse party clones who can't even bring themselves up to call a terrorist by his name. So much for leading by an example. Sam, your contribution here has ended. But there problem is that there are thousands like you.
From the very mainstream non meshichist posters here it's evident that Chabad viewed the beating as well deserved, witness how they rationalize it:This bochur helped carry the books , they 'fooled' him, blah, blah.I'm not saying that Official Chabad had a hand or condoned it, but:The guy apparently was helped with getting out as soon as possible from the States.I don't recall the Rebbe, saying anything about this.Did he?
Off topic:The riots and unfortunate, killing of Rosenbaum, hashem yinkom domoh, have not been dealt with here.Neither has the Rebbes deafening silence on the tragedy(which he may never have been told about)
malach, to continues to post here you will have to stop rambling and you will have to stop being a one dimensional mirror image of the bloody clones.
Guruvatir, what's your brainwashed logic that if the (of centered bucher?)helped the Gurarys, his Thshuvas Hamishkal is to murder his Meshalach, by jewish standerds the mishna of CHACUMIM HIZHARU BEDIVREICHM SHMU TUCHEIVU CHOVAS GOOLUS stil prevails. 2)
yacov, then we should stop teaching parshas Amalek, because some mentally ill fool will begin seeing Amalek everywhere.
Options A & B are both invalid, tzemach. C is that there is no Nevuah, there is Ruach Hakodesh, whatever that means exactly, but it seems to be an unconscious form of Divine guidance. So no, the Rebbe could not have known that Chana would be hit, unless God had decided to reveal it to him. Which truthfully applies to a Novi as well. The Novi only knew those things revealed to him, he did not know everything.
Are you asking me if it was a tragedy that an older woman was beaten? Of course. Are you asking if I truly think that because she asked someone for help in a theft it that she deserved what she got? Of course not.
The real question is, do I think that she had a right to remove books? Of course she did not. On that we will have to disagree.
And thank you for the compliments.
I will respond to Shneur's comment as well: No one considers a public court case a "fine" moment, but within the context of your rant, I will state that it was the fine moment when Lubavitch declared that nepotism is nonexistent, family means nothing, and we judge each person on their own merits - and two of those persons failed to measure up.
B"H
Nonetheless, you run into the infallibility doctrine's big net.
a) Either the Rebbe did not know, in which case you cannot hold that he is some omniscient Navi.
b) or, the Rebbe did know, in which case he sanctioned the beating of an octogenarian woman.
Somehow, I prefer to think A (and according to TA, that is the view of all mentalbloggers). If someone says B (as Ariel's comment implies), how can it be justified? Is there a C that I am missing?
If so, what has become of the infallibility doctrine?
rebeljew | Homepage | 08.14.05 - 10:20 pm | #
RebelJew you misunderstand my comment somewhat but even if you want to understand it this way, or better yet even if the Rebbe were to directly tell that bochur publicly or in private to go and do what he did it wouldn't be a violation of halocha as far as the Rebbe or the bochur are concerned as "wild" this sounds it's true.
1) A Rebbe is a prophet appointed by another prophet thus any action he does or asks others to do (short of literaly worshiping idols or stating that some commandment should be totaly abrogated and few other exceptions) is obligatory by the letter and spirit of Torah law to do and whoever questions it is a fool and or a heretic and lacks faith in Hashem as well (look it up in Rambam laws of Foundations of the Torah chapters 7 thru 10 or short description in Sefer haChinuch)
2)What I actualy said as opposed to how you read it was that the Rebbe knew it would happen not that he directly or inderectly ordered the bochur to do it, look at the Rambam's explanation how Hashem's foreknowlege of the events doesn't take away our free choice.
3)If you want, you can look at it this way. Hashem wanted people (even those who don't have seichel to intilectually grasp the concept) to be able to fufill the mitzvah of awe and respect of a tzadik in this case Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a therefore he created bunch of public "living examples" what eventually happens when this mitzvah is ignored by anyone for example Begin (eventualy fell into depression and lost his mind), Sadat (shot at a parade by Arab extremist) Carter (wasn't reelected) (3 outcomes above predicted by the Rebbe at a farbregen before the events happened he said one of them will lose his head another will lose his throne and the 3rd one shall lose his head...[Shmarya and other conspiracy theory's nuts take note you can now "legitimatly claim" that the Rebbe hired the killer of Sadat to create a "self fulfilled prophecy":-)] Yitzhak Shamir (dethroned by the Rebbe's efforts for allowing negotiations about future palestinian authonomy 5 years later saw the truth of the Rebbe's words and was led to say "Presidents make mistakes , prime-ministers make mistakes but the Rebbe doesn't make mistakes!") ...
By the way (and this aplies to someone like RebelJew or Tzemach a litle bit and to a much greater degree to someone like Shmarya)should look up the last posuk in Yeshyahu 66 (which according to the "Timeline of Moshiach and redemption" (no link provided as the Tzemach is bound to delete it as he does, but thank G-d for the mighty Google...:-) is "due" to be fulfilled next year 5766 and study various comentaries on it and do a serious cheshbon ha'nefesh may be (G-d willing!)they'll be spared the fate described there for as explained in Midrash whoever rebels against the leader of the generation is same as the one who rebels against Hashem also see the above sources for laws about prophets.
(Please don't misquote this post in whole or in part out of it's context to ascribe to me something that I didn't say, Tzemach please either delete this whole post if it bothers you or don't touch it at all, please don't edit it.)
guravitzer: stop teaching, no. stop talking in circles,yes.
I was talking about a cheshbon hanefesh by Chabad chassidim not a political debate . A personal religious accounting for an act against Torah and morality. I am not asking for a Political statement.
Just a moment of hisboneneusth about how a 90 year old women a daughter of a Nasi (yes Nepotism is alive and well)be Yisroel who was moser nafshah for her father .
A eishes chaver - kechaver as chazal say. could be beaten by a Tamim a yeshiva bachur of TTL beasre De"rav the place where according to the Rebbe Moshiach would first reveal himself to declare Anavim higia zeman Geulaschem, on the HOLY Shabboth. How could an event like this happen ? Vi iz dos meglech ???
I know thAT IF A OLD PERSON WERE BEATEN IN MY SHUL DURING DAVENING i WOULD FEEL GUILTY OF SOMETHING !
I am not inteested in political excuses statements and rants that this is a declaration against Nepotism (perhaps against Schneersohn nepotism in favor of the "NEW Nepotism " rule by the Hersons, Krinskys, Cunins Shemtovs with all their sons and sons in law keyn yirbu ! and other "Zikne Anash" (as Reb Chaim Liberman called these people in my presecence).
Picture or no picture.
This photo was published in an Israeli paper at that time called Chadashoth accompanying an article by Benny Avni who now writes for THE SUN.As far as i can tell of course its Mrs. Gourary .(Perhaps some of our readers think its Jessica Simpson ?)
I suggest Anash NOT read the article because it contains incendiary material that for some reason has not been publicized elsewhere.
Finally I saw Rebbetzin Gourary beynai basar and her eye was beaten and she was not in good shape.
So what it boils down is continuing denial or even justification ??
Are there not any Lubavitcher who feel sorry that the event could happen, who feel that the perp should be sanctioned by the international Chabad community . Who feel that in some manner Chabad of today must rectify the situation, and ask for mechilah from the victim who is now in alma deKeshot and where she her father and brothers in law all sit together and know the TRUTH)?
For a moment lets become Jews instead of Lubavitcher or anti Lubavitcher just simple Jews !
In other words, Schneur, you're asking me to muster up some feeling for her. Specifically sorrow, but I'll just give you a general answer: I have no feeling for her one way or another.
If you would like to continue this conversation on a practical basis, or on principals, fine. I've already said, and most would too, that if given the choice we would rather she had not been beaten. But it happened. If wishes were horses.
Ariel
Re: Your Isa 66 reference
Please keep your hellfire and brimstone theology safely locked away from public view. Even Christian ministers have matured enough to realize how childish it sounds.
I am ashamed by the reaction of guravitzer.
I,too, am ashamed and shocked at guravitzer’s reaction.
I must say , however, that to blame the Lubavitcher Rebbe for the horrific, unacceptable, sick, demented, twisted, despicable, and in all ways revolting, beating of Rebbetzin Chana Gourary, is really quite a stretch. At no time has there ever been any example to the Lubavitcher Rebbe calling for violence of any kind; and the fact that this accusation is being promoted by at least one individual who supports behavior of this type makes this all the more ridiculous.
I can’t believe that any sane person would, or could, defend such an act – and I never met anyone who did. I don’t think it was handled well, but that is just a reflection of the generally poor way Lubavich (at least in CH) functions as a community. Unfortunate as it may be, Lubavitch has long been an out-of-control hefkeirus, and things like this take place easily under those conditions.
As to the often visited argument about infallibility, I think that that term has been hijacked by the simple minded, and is so misunderstood that people conclude that the Rebbe must be as perfect as HKB”H. IMHO, this is stupid and irrational, they Rebbe does not have to be all-knowing and all-seeing; no man is, and no man ever was.
Guravitzer - Layder nitta mit vemen zu reyden. Sorry, we are on totally different frequencies.
Sam - Is there a statute of limitations in Judaism for Teshuvah and aveiros bein Adam Lechaveiro ?
Let me know I am really interested.
Have you ever heard of the concept of communal responsibility ?
Well said, CE.
even better ever heard of the original sin?
From the very mainstream non meshichist posters here it's evident that Chabad viewed the beating as well deserved, witness how they rationalize it:This bochur helped carry the books , they 'fooled' him, blah, blah.I'm not saying that Official Chabad had a hand or condoned it, but:The guy apparently was helped with getting out as soon as possible from the States.I don't recall the Rebbe, saying anything about this.Did he?
Off topic:The riots and unfortunate, killing of Rosenbaum, hashem yinkom domoh, have not been dealt with here.Neither has the Rebbes deafening silence on the tragedy(which he may never have been told about)
malach | 08.15.05 - 3:38 am | #
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malach, to continues to post here you will have to stop rambling and you will have to stop being a one dimensional mirror image of the bloody clones.
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 08.15.05 - 3:46 am | #
Tzemach:I've copied both my post and your response, can you please tell me what was 'rambling' about it.Also can you explain what a 'one dimensional mirror image of the bloody clones' is?
ce, please read all comments:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments.../?
a=28769#93957
I would expect this chavurah to be ashamed of me. It's what I deserve for hanging out in the fringe here. I really have no intention of changing to suit whatever the current fringe fad is. I'm fine with the exchange if ideas and discussion.
But you are the fringe, Guravitzer, why don't you declare who you are. Let's have some context for the people. I don't betray my readers. But I know who you are even though you never told me. But in the context of this conversation this is inconceivable that you keep your anonymity because it colors your every word Mr. Nuevo Nepotism.
I'm not necessarily looking for anonymity, but so be it. Like I said, I'm staying out of this conversation. At least from now. (Or at least I'm looking for anonymity as much as you are.)
Anonymity is fine but let's not BS anybody around here. You are an interested party and this in a way is a better position that to be an immoral, callous scum of the earth.
Guravitzer,
Since when is common decency a fad? What kind of human has no problem with the beating of:
#1. A Human
#2. A Jew
#3. An elderly woman
#4. The Previous Rebbe's daughter
#5. The Rashag's Wife
Today's definition of "Chassidim" has really changed... I must have missed that.
I'm sure glad that I don't know who you are...
let him be CE, guravitzer is not welcomed here any longer. Today was his virtual Uriah moment.
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я скажу тебе с последней прямотой, все лишь бредни шерри-бренди, ангел мой
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I have written the following about the Rebbe and the Rashag some time ago, and since the Rebbe & Rashag came up, i decided to post it here, although it doesnt have much to do with this post, but maybe TA will post it separately:
"The Rebbe & The Rashag, The Plan"
Most readers know of the fact that after the passing of the Rayatz, there was a serious dispute as to who should become the next Lubavitcher Rebbe, be it the Ramash or the Rashag. But most people don’t know the history behind it, some people have speculations about what exactly happened. In this article, I want to present a theory, which has historical base, and explains better the history.
As known, the Rayatz had three daughters, Chana, Mushka & Sheina.
During the time of the Rebbe Rashab, one of the Bochurim in Tomchei Tmimim, was the Rashag, Rabbi Shmaryahu Gurarie, the Rashab has picked him as the future husband for his oldest grand-daughter, Chana. During the time prior to the Shiduch, the Rashab told the Rayatz, that he looks at the Rashag as the future Nassi of Tomchei Tmimim, the person who will continue the Lubavitcher Education System, of Avoda and Limud HaChassidus according to Darchei HaChassidus, for he was a student of Tomchei Tmimim, he was a “Tomim”.
When Mushka turned 23 the Rebbe Rayatz has met with the Ramash’s Mother, and it was decided that the Ramash shall be the husband for the second daughter, Mushka. One of the conditions of the Shiduch from the part of the Ramash’s mother was that the Ramash be the next Lubavitcher Rebbe after the Rayatz. The Ramash wasn’t supposed to be in a position of Hashpaa to Chassidim, for he never learned in Tomchei Tmimim.
That’s in short, the history of the Shiduchim.
The Rayatz, as per his father’s requests, has appointed the Rashag to a prominent position in the Lubavitcher court, and always took him along in all his travels. At some point, there was a fallout between the Rashag and his father-in-law, which developed into very tense relations. This resulted in the tense trip they both took to Israel in 1929, where the Rashag treated his father-in-law with less than respect.
The Rayatz, seeing that the Rashag does not comply, decided to bring some other people to prominent positions in Tomchei Tmimim, so the Rashag will be obligated to comply.
During the year 1932, for a few months the Ramash became the director of Tomchei Tmimim, and when the Ramash returned to Paris, this position was given to a young Chassid, Rabbi Shneur Zalman Gurary (“Jimmy”), who was the cousin of the Rashag, and had a bitter argument with him.
The Rashag, who at that point wasn’t interested in working in communal matters, decided to move to Israel, and settle in business. This venture was not successful, and upon pressure from his wife, Chana, who wanted her husband to be involved in the communal matters, he returned to his father-in-law.
A few years later, when the Rayatz came to U.S.A. he saw the terrible level of Judaism in America, and realized that the Lubavitch which was in Russia, will not work in America, in the USA there is a need for a Yeshiva, and more than that, there is a need for outreach, for activities which will bring the light of Chassidus to the masses.
For that, the Rayatz, decided a plan, he was going to divide the Leadership of Lubavitch into two parts, the first part will be the part of preserving the past, of producing the future Chassidim, thru a renewal of the Yeshiva “Tomchei Tmimim” in the USA. The job of the Yeshiva would be to educate the young select Tmimim in the ways of Chassidus, in Avoda and Limud. This post was given to the Rashag, who has learned in Tomchei Tmimim, and knew the way it worked.
On the other hand, America needed a new brand of Chassidus, a “outreach” Chassidus, which will educate the non-religious jews in America about Judaism. To this job, which meant de-facto, being the next Lubavitcher Rebbe, he appointed the Ramash. The Ramash was being groomed for this position for some time already, as the Rayatz has instructed him to gain secular knowledge so he can present Chassidus to the masses. Together with The Ramash, he selected two highly capable individuals, Rabbi Chodokov, and Nissen Mindel to join the Rebbe in his work.
The Rayatz, has created three new institutions, which will all be under the Ramash’s leadership, these institutions were:
1) Merkos L’Inyonei Chinuch: The educational arm of Lubavitch, this was the institution which was supposed to educate the Jewish children the values of Judaism with the light of Chassidus. The institution printed study books, children books, children magazines, and organized rallies and parties to promote Jewish Education.
2) Machane Israel: The social network. This institution was to encourage the Jews to keep the Torah thru a variety of programs, which included support for the Shabbos keepers, Distribution of religious items (as Tefillin and Mezuzos), and books (Siddurim) to the jews in the outer towns, and to the Jewish soldiers.
3) Kehos: The Lubavitch Publication House, this institution was to be a publishing house which will print and distribute any jewish booik of interest and need, the publications of Kehos included Mishnayos, siddurim, jewish history books, jewish novels, and a monthly publication explaining the basics of Chassidus (Started as HaKriah VeHaKdusha, and then Kovetz Lubavitch).
These three institutions were to become the basis for the New Lubavitch, which will work hand-in-hand with the Yeshiva. In the first years, there was working agreements between the Ramash and the Rashag, that the Rashag supply the Bochurim which are fit for the outreach work to “Merkos”, and those which are not fit to learn should help out in the office.
When the Rayatz passed away, the Ramash did not want to accept the leadership, and said that since the Rashag has been appointed as leader of Tomchei Tmimim, he shall be the Rebbe. The Rashag on the other hand didn’t want to become Rebbe, since the Rayatz appointed the Ramash as the Representative.
At this point two people stepped into this, and those people were the ones who caused the major rift, thru spreading rumors about the other side, and managing to cause that neither of the two candidates should be willing to give up on anything, all or nothing.
The people were: 1) Jimmy Gurarie, who had a hatred to his cousin, and did everything possible that the Rashag lose all power in Lubavitch, including Tomchei Tmimim. Jimmy himself, wasn’t a big Chassid of the Ramash then, and on the contrary, he was not very fond of a modern Lubavitcher Rebbe, but since it was between two candidates, and one of them was more hated than the other, he joined the Ramash, and was in charge of destroying any chance the Rashag may have had to retain power in Lubavitch.
2) Chana Gurarie, the Rashag’s wife. She wanted her husband to be the Rebbe, and she used her power to convince the older Chassidim, and her mother, that the Ramash ought not to become the Rebbe.
The end is known, the Ramash became the Rebbe, the Rashag retained the Administrative power in Tomchei Tmimim, but not the Nesius, the Ramash got Nesius on Tomchei Tmimim. A few years later, the Rashag has become a full fledged Chassid of the Ramash, and in the later years, the Rashag was the example of a true Chassid. A loyalty which was revealed in the time of the Sforim case, that the Rashag wholly supported the Ramash in the struggle and even separated from his wife for that matter.
Hey Anonymous Lubavitcher, do you think anyone who reads this blog will take this seriously:
"The Ramash was being groomed for this position for some time already, as the Rayatz has instructed him to gain secular knowledge so he can present Chassidus to the masses"
Try again please, the propaganda department is not on this site.
Tzemach, don't make fun. The Rayatz also instructed the Rebbe's brother to gain secular knowledge so he could present Chassidus to the masses.
What I was hoping for was some explanation of how Jimmy and Chana manipulated the Rebbe and the Rashag respectively.
Personally, I don't think anyone "pushed" the Rebbe into accepting anything, unless you count his mother, who supposedly made this a condition of the shidduch.
"Chassidus to the masses" nu, nu
How does a person who is a Jew, seeking the ways of Hashem wakes up opne day, looks in a mirror and writes this crap?
How does secular knowledge help to present Chasidus to the masses? Since when did the CR use "secular knowledge" in discussing Chasidus, other than some weak apologetics?
By secular knowledge, I understand it to mean knowledge of the secular world and how to manipulate it, e.g. effective public relations.
Anonymous Lubavitcher would benefit from some writing courses - and he owes an apology for the abuse of the comma. If I may, I would like to suggest purchasing Lynn Truss's book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves:"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obido...=books&
n=507846
I found the article pretty dumb, and (I guess like most people who attempt to recreate history) he just believes his own sentiments. I would say that I've heard from people who were around at the time that the majority of Lubavitcher chassidim wanted the Rebbe to succeed the Rayatz; I've even heard this from chassidim who didn't really become followers of the last Rebbe (The words he used were along the lines of, "There was little doubt").
As for me, I don't know - I wasn't there. But, who really cares anyway? The Rebbe was the Rebbe; the Rashag was the Rashag - all the ridiculous conspiratorial hypotheses are silly. Zol zei beider zein a gutte beter in himel.
"By secular knowledge, I understand it to mean knowledge of the secular world and how to manipulate it, e.g. effective public relations."
So he should have taken courses in public relations, language, public speaking, advertising. In reality, it seems that he spent time in the science and math areas.
Without his secular knowledge, he might have been just another insular Rabbi busying himself with book bans, water purity, etc., and he would have had zero impact on the world at large. (I am not naming names, so don't feel like you need to defend your godol of the week).
There is no indication that this was the Rebbe's motivation at the time, but Hashem has a way of making everything work out according to his plans.
Yossi
I was under the impression that he did this for religious reasons, rather than because of the influence of secular learning. Silly me.
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