mentalblog.com comments:
erh gemacht zich nischt visandik
i think you are behind the times on this one, the last ten years have seen a tremendous increase in marriages between frum from birth and baalei tshuva and I wouldn't say that all of them are due to wealth on the baal teshuvah side.
I am sure there are exceptions and I am not really aware of the past ten years although your wealth remark is telling. I am only reporting on what I witnessed on Rebbe's watch. It was and is murder.
tzemach, the issue is complicated. your point is somewhat valid i guess. but there is another side to this problem as well. how much effort have BTs put into “assimilating” into the FFB crowd? being a BT myself, i know that i haven’t done my fair share of crossing the border between the two camps. i am married to a BT not only because i would not have been welcomed in an FFB home, but primarily because she was raised in a similar culture, language, we share our worldview etc. etc. as wrong as it is, i would not want to be married to an FFB. in short, the BTs are still different and honestly they largely refuse to change and conform to the customs of the frum world.
Since I Don't Have You was orginally recorded by The Skyliners in the late 50's. The GNR version was a rauncher album cut. I particularly like their version of Live & Let Die.
faruq, to pile on one generalization on top of another (i.e. BTs do that…) is not going to help the conversation. We are describing broad phenomena of discrimination.
To dwell on a particular exceptions is like saying there is not terrorism in Israel because more people died in automobile accidents, or it is really only in certain areas and then you settlers brought the terrorism on your head because who asked you to live there occupiers…
ben, that GNR song is to die for...
Blessed is the memory of Yonni..
ta, i agree that there is a broad discrimination. what I am saying is that to a large extent the discrimination is natural. this is not (only) something dictated from the top. people tend to marry their own kind, period. as long as the BT are strikingly different in their outer and inner appearance, the discrimination against the nonconformists will not go away. also, when a young person is looking for his/her future spouse it is an ultimate process of discrimination. one must discriminate in order to choose. of course, there are other aspects to this, including the law.
faruq, once again do not generalize. Clothing, etc. A Russian BT might be as far away from an American, etc. Conversely there might be more in common between FFB American and American BT that a person from France, etc.
When slaves were loaded on the boats they knew what was up and understood the discrimination was the law. But when the Lubavitcher Rebbe emissaries lured gullible Jews into the system. I can bet you $10,000 not once the y informed the victims about the cast system.
You are saying that you fine with the cast system, moreover you like to be with your own cast. This is you. But there are others who are different. The conversation is about underlying fallacy of the movement that hides its cast system and many victims of this trap. The victims are real. What else do you need to know? :(
i do not generalize. i don't like your tone, i need nothing else to know. the conversation is over. do not publish this. :o(
also, i do not think you should have any problems and cultural differencies with the FFBs. you are as rude as they are.
my point exactly :+:
This issue is truly in a class with the nepotism issue. Who am I going to marry the daughter off to? The kid from that family where I know the relatives, I know the fiancial situation, I know the history? Or this nobody who had so many problems with society that he joined Chabad?
rebeljew "had so many problems with society"... speak for yourself. This is another vile and rotten generalization :(
I know 4 families personally in which a BT was paired up w/ "chashuve" FFB families. You know what they all had in common? THEY WERE ALL LOADED W/ GELT.
In order to discern whether this is is discrimonation or accomadation to coltural differences as described by faruq, you have to see if it carries over th the next generation. I do not believe that children who are ffb cut are children of bt's are having dificultties assimilating into ffb bnie ffb families.
The question is not about future integration. Blacks will integrate into the society in the future and it has no bearing on the crime committed against them.
Yemenite Jews will integrate into the Israeli society in the future but it has nor bearing on the crime of stealing children from their families by the communist Zionists.
This is not about families loaded with gelt or not. This is about the discriminatory crime systematically comminuted on Rebbe's watch. This is about a trap set for many BTs without an iota of responsibility for their future. This is about shfihas domim.
You forget, there is one group of people even below BTs and those are gerim.
Mordechai, you are correct about gerim. Yet there is a difference.
1.Chabad does not have a policy to actively convert.
2.Most gerim intuitively understand that they are newcomers. It hardly compares to the shock of a person who is 100% Jewish and in many cases superior in education from the aborigines to be treated as a 10th class citizen. It carries with it a false advertisement of active and dishonest courtship.
This is true TA, I understand your point.
However I've always found it odd that gerim are always fawned all over "oh you're on such a high level! blah blah, the Rebbe said such and such about Gerim blah blah Ruth blah!" while also being implicitly fed the message "just don't marry our children!"
I think most gerim understand that they're newcomers, but I'm not sure that most of us grasp being flung into the lowest level of a cast system (along with any of our future children) and being seen as 'undesireable' in terms of marriage in the eyes of the Chabad-Litvish-Chassidic community simply for the 'sin' of being a ger.
I find this especially odd given that I've known more than one Chabad rabbi to encourage someone to undertake Orthodox conversion in place of a Reform or Conservative one, where such cast systems are obviously absent.
Regarding BT's (not geirim), there is a simple question. Looking at this strictly from the "official" angle, is this unwitting person "flung into this system" etc etc but being given shabbos, and tefillin, and Judaism, being rendered a service in the bottom line; or is he being rendered a disservice, that if I would know that the attitude toward me would be like this, then #### it all?
Most half-serious people, BT's included, understand that the former is true.
Obviously, this does not excuse the current state of affairs. But before we begin to smugly accuse people of murder, we have to rethink the situation. Most BT's will get married, at least to other BT's. (By the way, in more cases than we let on this is better for the BT as well; I am personally acquainted with more than one person who made some very wrong choices in life, to no small extent because of the desire to be "in" by marrying davka an FFB). That said, is there good in taking a person who in all likelihood already overwhelmed, and start scaring him with the prospect of having no-one to marry?
I think not.
770 you are a young bochur
TA, do you think BT parents would be any more likely to want their children to marry BT's? Somehow I think now.
TA--everybody faces heartbreak in life. It is sad that his new and adopted community not only did not provide the resources to face this but, in the mind of the young man (and you say objectively), contributed to his despair. Jewish establishments and their communal offspring are permated top-to-bottom with hierarchal feedback loops of conformance and legitimation. Maybe he should have said f*** it, no? Ultimately it was his decision.
Borcuh, I don't know what BT parents will do. This is again a too broad a generalization for me.
Paul, this post is about hypocrisy and decay in the community presided over by the almighty Rebbe, this is not about a recommended courses of action. This is about placing the accusation of spilled blood where it belongs.
TA - 1) it's the caste system (not the cast of one which your blog is rapidly becoming)
2) are you aware that your tone has become more shrill and caustic as of late? (just an observation)
BDA - I think all parents BT and FFB alike want successful marriages for their children - it's more than just an exercise in "yichus upgrading"
TA - could your friend have possibly have had other issues which precipitated his unfortunate decision? maybe those very demons drove him to seek tranquility in frumkeit in the first place - it's shallow of you to lay it on to the system (at least you're not blaming GNR - Oh I forgot - that's Ozzie who causes the suicides)
shmuel monkes, my blog is the cast of one with major contributions by Schneur who incidentally refused my offer to be come a co-blogger not just a commentator.
I am frustrated by the scheme where everyone quickly assumes neatly prepared ideological roles. I detest that. I am also misunderstood.
Yonni was not my friend but I think it is very shallow to assume that he had other problems. He might have had other issues but on the face of it we only know that he killed himself from loneliness.
shmuel monkes wrote: "BDA - I think all parents BT and FFB alike want successful marriages for their children - it's more than just an exercise in "yichus upgrading"
But that's my point! A BT family may very well want their children marring FFB kids because they believe it would be more conducive to a happy marriage. It's not simply narrow minded discrimination, as TA would have us believe.
shmuel monkes, help me with english please caste is an indian term but cast is defined as
A class that is defined by the common attribute or attributes possessed by all its members.
What is a proper term to use?
you can't be serious - do you think he was a happy, grounded, well adjusted, individual who just happen to have had an extra dollop of loneliness in his day and got pushed over the edge by a rock band? (I'm serious now, my usual sarcasm notwithstanding)
face it, many people come to Chabad (and buddhism, DLM and a host of other things) with an awful lot of baggage - can they and do they sometimes get manipulated - knowingly or otherwise - yes but for every so-called "manipulation" there's quite a few with some very real problems.
should prospective BT's get a disclaimer - there's no orientation where you get the houserules - you just let your soul try to fill with some holiness to whatever level you can float up to - people who bring all the other world ballast have trouble sometimes floating to the top - it's not an all or nothing proposition - there are an infinite variation of nuances
TA--.Jews have endured even things even worse than being a brideless BT mark in Schneerson's ponzi Lubavitch: there are undoubtedly other BT's in similar positions who do not kill themselves; there are people who are NOT in this situation who DO. Including celebrities with doting families and bulging bank books. Those of us who disagree with you understand the point you are trying to make, we believe that your explanation is "underdetermined".
BTW cast as a noun - your definition is # 20 in the dictionary
caste as a noun - #2 meaning "a separate and fixed order or class in society"
I don't know if you are a native English speaker but "tadir u'sheaino tadir, tadir kodem" applies to usage as well
BTW Paul - what doe "underdetermined" mean in the context you use it (are you Binny's dad?)
rebeljew "had so many problems with society"... speak for yourself. This is another vile and rotten generalization
Tzemach Atlas | Homepage | 08.21.05 - 12:57 pm | #
I thought I was speaking for myself. Anyway, I was under the impression that people do not radically change their lives if they are happy with it. In the very act of becoming a BT, are you not saying that you are unhappy with your direction and the mores of society? I think it is a safe generalization.
rebel - you're on the money - most (not all) people living out their lives run on the assumption "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" - many (again I don't want to paint with too broad a brushstroke) find something wanting or lacking in their lives and look to fill a void - some seek relationships, healthy or otherwise, some buy dogs, some seeking solace, company, acceptance, forgiveness or many other things, look towards some sprituality - we believe Torah is the right derech but they're going to the kabbalah center, ashram etc. presumably searching for something more than they have - it has been my experience, working with BT's that many bring much lethal emotional baggage to the game
So BT's and gerim are emotional nutcases? That seems to be the 'vibe' being transmitted.
What's the point in even becoming religious if we're to be looked at as whackos and 'untouchables' by the rest of the frum community?
We certainly wouldn't want to interfere in the inbreeding and low education standards of the glorious 'tower of Torah' (complete with Welfare and Food Stamps!) which some FFBs seem to think they inhabit.
Not sure if the Russian BT's are that angelic, many of the once I've seen are shrewd apparatchiks who see in yiddishkeit a career path and a chance to parade their supposed "superiority". If American BT's schlep in their neuroses, the Russians flaunt their smugness.
yes mordechai - many are - some are not as stated above and whether they are or not certainly doesn't excuse inexcusable practices among FFB's either
the point of becoming frum is that you come to the realization that Hashem created the world and there is accountability (and yes that even applies to the FFB's :) we don't join the masons or rotary to get business I was once told but if we genuinely do the masonic or rotary thing, "business" usually comes - the analogy is appropriate here
Union Joe, BT=meshuga is a uniquely American invention. Our Connecticut (rebel and monkes) comrades even assume this to be axiomatic
how can one make "career path" out being a BT?
Didn't the Prev. Rebbe say that BT's end up as BT's because they're NOT comfortable in their old skins? Across the board, most BT's are reasonably well-adjusted, but it's true, many nutjobs out there as well. You can't live down 3-4-5 generations of no or minimal observance in one leap. Much residue would remain. Recall the famous moshul of stuffed kishke smelling foul. A lot of the blame goes to the mashpiim and roshei yeshivas at the BT factories who are oftentimes ill-equipped to deal with the serious problems that some BT's grapple with.
by starting a blog and linking to paypal:)
TA, here you go, generalizing again. :)
True, there may be a prepondarance of Americans as crazy BT's but I think it's a cross-cultural phenomenon. What I meant by career path is the realization of some of the Russians that this was a comfortable way to get on the post-perestorika gravy train with its millions of dollars poured into reestablishing a Jewish life in the x-USSR.
most people who run the show and benefit from the diamond dollars in Russia are FFB Americans, Italians, etc.
shmuel--no, I'm just me--I would call an explanation "undetermined" if it relies upon factors that are neither necessary NOR sufficient to explan what has happened.
Other circumstances could persuasively have contributed (the young man was depressed for other reasons or his depression was autonomous, it no longer simply derived from his life situation but played the accuser, so to speak, and negatively colored his own perception of the negative and positive circumstances in his life, etc.--the explanation gives a reason that is not sufficient); we may see that the same circumstances apply in cases where an opposite outcome occurs (other BTs face similar trials but perservere--again, the explanation is not sufficient) or we know that an identical outcome occurs in completely different circumstances (famous and married non-Lubavitch walk off ferry boats and drown themselves--the factors are not necessary).
I am not sure that it is as you say. Tanya explains how the parents actions at the moment of conception have a direct effect on the child. Many people may feel queasy marrying off their child who was born with Taharas Hamishpacha to someone who was not.
This is not to cast a blemish on that person, the Rebbe does write that once a woman goes to the Mikvah it retroactively has a good effect, nevertheless some people may feel differently.
Just a though,
FedUp
"So BT's and gerim are emotional nutcases? That seems to be the 'vibe' being transmitted."
No, THIS is a vile overgeneralization, Monkes! Most BT's that I have encountered are very centered people who are out of step with society. They are unhappy with the prospect of spending life "keeping up with the Jones", focusing on a career etc. They are family centered, but they see that society does not value that anymore. Often they are on the outs with their own families, many times, because they went to the "dark side" and became frum, from their family's perspective. They can no longer eat with their own family and friends, go out for coffee or even donuts with their oldest friends and they traded it for what is behind door number one. Sadly, it is a rude awakening.
They are looking for something more in tune with what they feel inside, and for a Chabad BT Chabad is it at that time. The rhetoric of Chabad is what they are looking for. As TA began, the real Chabad may not match the packaging, Does that make them nutcases? I think the nutcases just stick in our minds because they make more noise and more memorable anecdotes. I mean, there are majority BT communities, like Pittsburgh or the old Morristown that functioned quite nicely.
BDA
I think many BT's would marry their children to BT's, rather than FFBs, especially today. It is just that FFBs are concerned with families because they have their own family looking after their interest. A young person sees only love, passion, flowers in springtime. Families see familial support through crisis, huge minimum living expenses, business or shlichus connections. They want that for their children, and a BT often does not bring that to the table, no fault of their own.
This is not about souls damaged outside of a mikva nor is it about BT’s social adjustments. This is about deception on the part of Lubavitch Chabad and the Admur me Dnerpoperovsk.
TA, you sound so bitter. Does this all have anything to do with your personal experience?
We discuss this same issue in our circles and we make the same generalization that you make, but then we can come up with many, many examples of the exact opposite within our own community and others.
Too much power resides in the hands of shadchanim. Nowadays, it's almost as important to impress the shadchan as it is to impress the girl.
shadchanim were already addressed:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2004/1...-pimps-
aka.html
TA - you'll probably ban me for suggesting this, but you're starting to sound an awful lot like the other guy - there is a very decent dialog going on here where people are sharing their experiences varied as they may be with the BT phenomenon - from both within and without and you keep harping on alleged "deception" - who broke your heart? c'mon - it's an improtant dialog - try not to sully it
TA
It is not deception on the part of Chabad or the Admor meNikolayev. It is simple incompetence. They focuses 95% on bringing in BTs and 5% on integrating those who did show up. They never foresaw the need to integrate BTs and as a result it grew out of control. Any oncologist can tell what results from that.
Monkes
Have you been to so many dry meaningless canned speech farbrengens that you cannot identify "words from the heart" when you see them?
TA,
you are wrong about Yonni. Read the website set up by his family. It sounds ( and they are open about it) he has some serious problems. I second the opinion of many on this blog that you are getting progressivly bitter. You are beggining to some more and more like a typical moscvich who assumes that by and large frum people are, including those on this blog, plain stupid and not desirivng of your respect. Reading most of the posts here, I see that you have attracted an unusual group of both Bt and FFb ( including quite a few landsleit ) who discuss ideas inteligently and thoughtfully, for this I commend you. My feeling is ( and I'm speaking for myself)you are going to see people leaving your online community if you insist on being elitist, anf be left with your equally bitter buddy, rebel.
AS to the point of the matter. The fact is you don't know what the Rebbe thought on this issue other than your own analyis. I can think of a number of cases where the Rebbe encouraged marriage between BT and FF, ashkenazim and sefardim ( for some, even worse)until a sudy is done, this remains hypothisis. your personal expereience has led you to analyze the Rebbe not from a specific knowledge of his opinions or statements but generalizations with foregone conclusions.
as far as BT "intergrating" I think on some level this is an insult to the BT. Being in lubavitch for close to 25 years, i've seen to the extant to which BT try to subvert their personaltities and identiites to the "society". They often feel that without the full acceptance of gezha, including, marriage, their aatachment to darkei hachassidus is incomplete. BT will try to find any link possible to a farvorfene shtelt in Belorus hoping there was a "lubavticher" in their ancestry so that they can be accepted by the others. Usually the "others" will not see the BT in a different light anyway, even if they turn out to be related. and what of yichus to a non-lubavitcher ancestor or town? ( hence my onscreen name, though i do have "lubavitcher" yichus ;-)I think this phenomenon is not limited to lubavitch but is to be found in litvish circles as well.
Schneerson yichus ,is it real ?
What yichus do the Schneersons have if anything. The supposed descendancy from the Maharal of Prague is all here-say. Where is the proof?
Menucha Rochel Schneuri the daughter of the Mittler Rebbe married into the real yichus. Her husband Rabbi Yaacov Culi Slonim was descended from Zerah Hakodesh, Rema,Mahadura Batra,Megaleh Amukos, Maharsha,Zichron Moishe and back to Ri Hazaken according to sefer Daat Kedoshim.
Yichusologist, as in the famous story about the Magid the rebbe’s yihus stands on it own. He has also no children so why it should concern you? I heard that John Kerry comes from the Maharal, so what does it make him? This is also way off topic here.
"dry meaningless canned farbrengens?" where do you think I come from? to give you some clue, the rav who signed my semicha was a talmid of Rav Shlomo Zalman ztzl" hardly the "canned farbrengen" type wouldn't you say?
yes - d'varim hayotzim min halev. . .
however I didn't relize bile came from the heart - maybe SR can add that to the scientific "world is flat" section of his blog - yes I hear wounded people - one must ask however, to what extent is the wound self inflicted - even getting beyond that does one wish to be a victim for any longer than one has too - everyone has a bit of disfunctionality in the family tree - that's your mazal - the b'chira chofshis kicks in when you decide how you're going to let it affect you. Your parody on chasidic stories for example - good purim torah - I'm sure you made the other kids laugh in yeshiva (I know I did) and yes - on the merits there's a certain amount of thematic overlap - you could write a dissertation on familiar themes - the rebbe who traded his esrog money for a horse/his priceless heirloom sukka for burning wood, etc. or what about the rebbe who is smug about his seder/neilah and who is told that Berl the drunk/chaim the shlepper/moshe the water carrier's avodah was higher - of course! but let's put it in perspective - whether true or not, they don't tell stories like those about you, me TA and the other
"Often they are on the outs with their own families, many times, because they went to the "dark side" and became frum, from their family's perspective. They can no longer eat with their own family and friends, go out for coffee or even donuts with their oldest friends and they traded it for what is behind door number one. Sadly, it is a rude awakening."
That doesn't have to be the case. There was an article in Moment Magazine entitled "When Good Kids go Frum" (ya gotta love it!) and someone wrote in pointing out that these were not really religious issues but social and diplomatic issues and reflected an inability for many BT's (ofter younger) to successfully negotiate a safe space for family & friends - there ARE diplomatic ways of telling people you can't eat in their house without burning those bridges, but it calls for serious tact and sensitivity.
Tzemach, I know this is strong language, but you are letting obvious personal offence get in the way of emes. The emes is that Baalei Teshuva, such as myself, come from a different cultural milieu than FFB's. There is a whole cultural context that enters a marriage. This is the truly relevant aspect of "yichus". It makes perfect sense that I married not a BT, but the daughter of Baalei Teshuva. Was I ostracized and "not allowed" to date or not "red" to girls from more established FFB families? Maybe, but I never really found out, because it made more sense for shadchanim to set me up with girls with whom I have a level of shared life experience.
You make harsh generalizations, and then get angry when people defend their community by using other generalizations!
"10th class"? "shfichas domim"?
I think that your bitterness only gets worse with each post. Hashem Yiracheim.
TA - Basherte I always said is finding someone whose skeletons in her closet can be compatable with the skeletons in your own. Why you have an issue with the system mystifies - because everyone discriminates somehow. Wouldn't you, when suggested an overweight woman? Is that not discrimination? You see, you'll explain the "attraction" quotent. There are more things that go into a good match. For example, a girl who is an FFB might not have had any "history", as might a BT. Puts them into different emotional places, different experiential places, etc. I think the caste system silly, yet I don't think that any suicidal guy's depression could stem from that. There are plenty of other fish in the sea, that he did not davka need an FFB. I have been arguing with a "lonely" daughter of BTs to widen her horizons and go out with non-Lubav boys because the FFB Lubav in-families don't want her. But she has her own prejudices and nixes any guy who won't hang the rebbe over her dining room table and say a few "Hail (Yechis" to it each day. So, everyone does it in their own way. Ah well, that is the folly of human nature. Not just of Lubavitch.
And for those who say the BTs have their own look-down-their-nose elements, yup, I've experienced that too - worship me, cuz I sacrificed for my Judaism mindset. AND shunning FFB girls who would go out with them.
Too complicated to just rail against Lubav on this one.
shmuel monkes, why unhealthy obsession with Shmarya? If I collect all your emails and comments I bet 90% mention Shmaray in some fashion. We play a different game here. I fail to see how you managed to bring him into every conversation.
"unhealthy obsession" and "shmarya" in the same sentence - why, that's redundant - personally, I prefer to call it a "healthy fascination" (laced with a great deal of pity) - I truly believe that most folks cannot separate his fantasy from reality and it's great entertainment (trashing the chofetz chaim on tisha b'av was a true watershed event! ya gotta love it!)
out of curiosity, have YOU (a purported friend) ever approached him about his plethora of "unhealthy obsessions?"
however, don't for a second fool yourself and think you "play a different game" - you just have a better sense of aesthetics and a prettier blog than he does
"I fail to see how you managed to bring him into every conversation."
Then you're obviously not reading my posts carefully (:
monkes
You miss the ball with a wide swinging strike.
Imagine if your kids became hindu and now had different beliefs than you brought them up with and they can no longer eat with you, because they do not eat meat. They will visit with you and tell you respectfully why they cannot. You can discuss what you have in common. Your attitude toward the BT experience seems cavalier.
not at all but it doesn't have to turn into that - people frequently read their own agendas into seemingly innocuous events - my mother is not frum even though I was brought up frum and when I went to her house some time ago I picked up a jar of gefilte fish balls she had brought and fished a couple out with a toothpick one night. she complained to my wife that I didn't even trust the kashrus of her paper plates until my wife explained that I was just being a slob :) similarly, I was running a kumzitz on my farm in Vermont - my son shlomo was climbing a tree to break off branches for the girls to roast marshmallows. I sat down with my guitar and looked up and saw him and yelled "shlomo" one of the girls asked me if I was invoking the spirit of R Shlomo Carlebach - I replied that I was just trying to get my kid out of the tree -
l'havdil, my attitude is hardly cavalier - I have seen it from many vantage points and if you read my posts, the one thing I do is try to avoid overly broad generalizations. We have orchim virtually every week most of whom are BT's - they come in all flavors from regular to nuts!
Aren't all these issues shibboleths as to how we see the Torah world? someone wrote about a young shaliach who opened an "exclusionary" shul near the WTC site for the cool, hip, downtown beautiful Jews. Some in their blogs saw hypocricy and chabad conspiracy - others (myself included) saw a savvy young guy doing something to get his message to his target audience a la Hillel - give them the first round but ultimately win the game - I guess it's the difference between being right vs. being effective Shammai was probably right, but Hillel got credit for the kill
and TA - you deserve a better answer to your inquiry - when I look down the abyss, I am genuinely grateful that I'm not down there - one of your earlier posts said that you are frum despite yeshiva and knowledgable despite your rebbes or something to that effect. Remember, the self made man always worships his creator (or as we say in hilchos shabbos "chai nosei es atzmo") I have a tremendous hakoras hatov to those who gave me the seeds to become what I am today - family, rebbeim, wife, kids, community, etc. and thank Hashem daily that I have not let my own inner struggle leave me isolated, frustrated, angry and dedicated to ruining chabad (or whoever the bad guy du jour is) it's actually a refreshing, albeit sobering reality check - does that answer your query?
family, rebbeim, wife, kids, community
These are four groups, I can only relate to a half group out of the four. I am trying to build the rest. The destruction is not the main current here, building is. Building in all four aspects you mentioned above. But I have a feeling we are on different wave lengths so I have no hope of being understood by the big monkes.
Tzemach, if you want others to understand you, why don't you also try understanding (and relating to) them?
I write things that are deeply felt. I think I do relate to people. But if the posture of respoinding is dismissal, ridicule and attacks this leaves no room for mutual appreciation.
no one was suggesting you were being overly destructive (I was referring to the other guy but apparently you seemed to think it fit) from my vantage point, even destruction can have a happy ending which is why the shabbos melacha is actually called "soser al m'nas livnos" destruction to facilitate rebuilding - I hope you are able to increase your building across the board and not let the bitterness along the way retard your efforts
BTW What means " I have no hope of being understood by the big monkes." is that yeshivish or something
shmuel monkes, i already addresed the subject of retardation in this very post.
" I write things that are deeply felt."
In my study I have a cartoon depicting a russian novelist with a noose around his neck getting ready to jump off of his suicide note
do you resemble that cartoon perchance?
Go away monkes you are boring and thick. :-: leave, you are an idiot
the ironic thing about this riff is that r' maysh schwartz is a product of a BT that married an ffb!
I would say that in chabad the discrimination towards BT's by FFB's is an order of magnitude less than all other religous kraizen
monkes
"but Hillel got credit for the kill"
This is just it. It is not "a kill", "a touchdown" or whatever you want to call it. We are talking about people's lives here. The idea of the Chabad House was to make "the kill" and then let somebody else worry about cleaning up the mess. I cannot really speak from the true perspective of the BT or the nonfrum parent nor even the Chabadnik, but I have been around the block enough to know that often the circumstances in the family just evolve that way through no fault of either party (not as you imply, that it doesn't have to be that way). The BT and the family just grow apart because their life goals, experiences, and even their daily lives and priorities are now so entirely different that they just cannot relate to each other. The BT needs familial support. All he got was "the kill". Except that he was the "killee".
rebeljew: don't underestimating the unique aspects of depression (or, flipside, the value in encouraging habits of optimism and resilence)--
http://www.save.org/basics/
infor...tion_sheet.html
rj--or the power of folly
Who asked mekurovim to become full-fledged Lubavitchers? Maybe a few Amnon Yitzchak style Meshichistin. But if you really look into it, you'll see that it was the mekurov who pushed for it. Most shluchim have little interest in making mekurovim go "all the way." It destabilizes communities, it's bad for PR and most of the time the mekurov can't handle it anyway. Shluchim are much happier keeping you as a just barely modern orthodox friend of Lubavitch.
What happens is that there are certain extreme personality types that always do things all-out and so too when they get turned on to Yiddishkeit they can't just be happy being a shaved balabos who carries his yarmulka in his pocket to lunch-n-learns. Let's face it, some guys are kitzoni b'chlal (with a kuf, not a chof, though often such guys are both.)
Intelligent people who buy into the full chasidic lifestyle are usually a shtikkel narcissistic or else why couldn't they just be a regular balabos. Then, they get zapped when they find out that the shliach can't make the gezhe.
Chauvin, which Lubavitch have you had experience with? Certainly not the world famous one we all know and love.
Perhaps there is an issue of who the typical BT is. What is his makeup. Lonely, looking for meaning in life, rejected by his circle of friends? One may argue that it is those who are attracted to Chabad as BT’s who need the most support and love. BT’s crave rules, and crave community. Chabad needs to accept that if it going to continue to missions Jews to the Chabad lifestyle, it must change itself to be more open-minded to the secular world.
I’m thinking Mashiach may come before this ever happens.
Tzemach did you have problems marring into lubavitch being that you are a baal teshuvah??
Boruch,
I am talking about the same Lubavitch that we all know. The mission is not (neither in practice nor even in theory) to make people "frum." The charter of the Rebbe's shlichus is to cater to Jews and help them do Jewish things. You may think that sounds corny, but take a real look at real Chabad Houses. Shluchim are NOT looking to make anash out of their mekurovim. Most shluchim are very weary when a balabos grows a beard or a balabusta starts covering her hair. (Incidentally, it's the rigid Litvisher outreach workers who do go in for the "kill" and torment their mekurovim with threats of kol minei gehinom until finally bullying them into becoming card-carrying Art Scroll Jews).
So I'll say it again, if a BT becomes a full-blown Lubavitcher with beard and Borselino, Chitas and no gebrokts, it is because HE pushed it.
Now, there are various reasons why a BT might be so motivated; boredom and loneliness probably being lower on the list than most of us would think. Many BTs are intense people with a tendency for group chauvinism. Some are cultural romantics chasing a dream of idyllic shtetl life. Others are rigid conformists. Still others are looking for "authenticity." Most BTs are probably motivated by a little bit of all these things. But don't say that the shliach wanted to make regular happy Chabad House folk into beleagured BTs. It simply ain't so and, aderaba, the more cynical you are, the more that argument should fall apart.
Chauvin
While true that the Chabad Rebbe pressed for doing another mitzvah, instead of IMMEDIATE frumkeit or fire and brimstone, there can be no doubt at all that the CR intended that the mekuravim become frum and learn Chasidus. If you dispute that, you have never learned a sicha in your life.
Chauvin, the ones claiming their lives were ruined (I'm not agreeing with them) are for the most part products of our BT yeshivas and seminaries. They were students when they became from, not married family people.
Rebel - I have learned a sicho in my life. The shlichus "agenda" was NEVER to make people frum, just to love them and inspire them to rise to their potential in Torah and mitzvos. And if you don't know that, you have never learned perek Lev of Tanya in your life.
Boruch - the demographic you describe (college students who turned their lives upside down and went to BT yeshivas and signed up for the Lubavitch package) only serves to support my point. There are certain types who are apt to push their way into being full-on Lubies. The shluchim never looked for it and the Rebbe certainly never preached it.
U'vchein -- there is a certain serendipitous neurosis to those who need to put on the uniform. If you were normal, you'd be content going on like the twenty other college kids at the same Shabbos table where you were niskarev. But no... you had to be special.
And special you are.
BTW - My previous point is in no way meant to minimize the fact that the BT yeshivas are sorely underequipped in dealing with the unique emotinal, psychological and social issues of their talmidim.
Once when I was in Kolel, one of the yungerleit gave a kvetch, "Oooh, this place is so tense. There's so much stress here. It's full of a bunch of guys who all just completely changed their whole lives. This is not a healthy place to learn."
I couldn't help but laugh. "Try hanging out in a baal teshivah yeshivah," I told him, "Now that's tohu."
Bravo, Chauvin! Brilliant (perhaps too blunt and cutting) and right on the money. Being a BT myself I know all too well that this is self-inflicted. Although I do have an aswer from the Rebbe to live in accordance with the Shukchan Oruch "yom yoma". Shluchim are out there to cater and to religious needs, fundraise (or else how can you live?) and not necessarily convert anyone to frumkeit.
you bore me, you are a pedestrian bunch and you add nothing to the understanding of this issue.
I think that the comments reflect the sadness that TA was trying to bring out. I take back that this isn't an issue to aim at Lubav. Are you guys serious - that the Shluchim DON'T want to make guys frum? You mean only the select Shluchim and their families stood at Har Sinai and heard the commandments and agreed to take them on?! The rest of the world is riff-raff, folks not capable of doing more than light candles, wrap tefillin and give their bucks over to those who were exalted enough to stand "Tachas Hahar". That is what you are basically saying. My father always drilled in us that we all, FFBs and BTs alike, have to be Baaeli Teshuva, turning our lives upside down. If not, our Judaism ain't worth a tinker's pfenning.
How condescending of y'all.
shame on you. K'ish Echad B'Leiv Echad - if I gotta do something as in put on a Shaitel or grow a beard (depending on my gender, of course ;))
why wouldn't another member of Klal Yisroel? Yuk, double yuck. I begin to understand TA's problem with the "holier than thou" chevra.
TA, I understand your valid complain, especially knowing your situation...
Anyways, i think this generalization on your part is wrong.
My family is lubavitch nine generations, and i want to name you my fathers family.
uncle no. 1: married a bt
uncle no. 2: married a daughter of a bt.
uncle no. 3: married a bt.
uncle no. 4: married a daughter of a bt.
uncle no. 5: married a daughter of a bt.
aunt no. 1: married a bt.
aunt no. 2: married a bt.
my father is the only one who married a ffb.
thats for a lubavitcher family of nine generations, related to half of gezhe lubavitch directly, and the other half indirectly...
anyways, i can name you tens of gezhe important families who married into bt families nothing to do with the money.
examples: schapiro, altein, friedman, duchman, cunin, and tens more...
look at scott rosenberg... he is gezhe lubavitch, and didnt marry gezhe... (didnt marry anyone...)
two comments/questions
First: To say that Yoni commited suicide because of loneliness has nothing to do with the marriage situation, because according to you, BTs can marry other BTs just not FFBs. So are you going to say he did what he did because he couldnt marry a Rabbi's daughter?
Second: Just the story itself shows why the situation is the way it is. Would it be a good match for the chosson to be the kind of guy that listens to GNR while his kallah has never listened to goyish music? BT-FFB marriages happen, but it is difficult for a BT to change his/her life so much that they would match with a FFB. (or the FFB should be someone that has secularized a little to match with a BT)
You cannot arbitrary define what crime is. I don’t see any crime here. There is no need to introduce political correctness to open market.
I’ve read that from the childhood we are molded to complement our primarily caregivers and that’s the match we are looking for in our mates – the other part of the mold. That’s what makes us feel comfortable and say “aha”. So it’s much more likely to find your match among people of similar background.
As usual you are looking for big reasons when the problems are often in silly details. Things often go wrong just because of carelessness and to get back on track it helps to have endless good will, to be balanced, together, and connected. It’s easier to be one piece and make good impression in your own environment.
I had a great life before I became Orthodox and I have a great life today. It is a huge generalization to say that BT's become religious because of problems in their life before. This is certainly not true for me, nor for my friends. In fact, I would venture to say that we all became religious gradually as we learned more and more about Torah Judaism (note that some of us were quite familiar with Torah Judaism and its values even before we became Shomer Shabbat) and one day we woke up and found that we were part of the Orthodox camp. And, there was no turning back.
Once again I will repeat that my life was just fine before I was Orthodox and it is still just fine.
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