mentalblog.com comments:
מיישע, מיר בענקען זיך נאך דיר
Kol Hakovod.
A Gut Gebentched Yur to everyone
reb neal
We are so awed to be related to you... the Tzanzer Einikel... What greatness!!!
Thinking of you in alpharetta.
Love us.
I know this Ruv and he is mamosh a Gadol.
from gan yisroel to mentalblog...
youve come a long way moey
Tzemach:
"Maamorei Chasidus" or "Maamorim and Chasidus" not "Maamorim Chasidus".
No need to post, just FYI
thanks for the correction. is it chay, chai or high ellul?
Maharal's Yortzeit = Chay
Besh"t Birthday = Chai
Adha"z Birthday = High
U welcome
Can someone please tell us a bit about Rav Lieberman? Is he connected to the other Hasidic groups tht are part of the great Sanz dynasty or is this an attempt by Tzemach to start a new group called "Divrei Chaim - Chabad"?
Mayshe's Zeide Alter Lieberman is from Sanz. He's a descendant of one of the Divrei Chaim's daughters, the name of whom escapes me at the moment. He is not interested in starting "Divrei Chaim-Chabad".
He is not interested in starting "Divrei Chaim-Chabad"
and how do you know this for sure??
I have known Mayshe and his family for many years. I do not know for sure. But I suspect he'd be laughed out of the next family Chanukah party he attends if he tried.
The Satmarer rebbe and Bobover rebbes are desc. of both the Baal Hatanya and the Divre chaim and there are amny others as well such as the Twerski brothers hailing from Milwaukee.
Yet these chassidic groups are obviously very different.But in the days of yore there were some shidduchim between these ruling families , although the main line Schneersohns never were meshadech with the Halberstams.
how are they descended from the alter rebbe, through cherkass?
sto take a look here
http://www.loebtree.com/halberstam.html
interesting. especialy considering the events which led to the original chabad-chernobyl shidduch.
the maggid said that moshiach will come from either his oldest disciple or his youngest, which led the AR to choose the cherkasser for his granddaughter, a story which might explain why we dont see very many shidduchim of beis harav with anyone other than chernobyl.
(incidentaly the only lubavitcher rebbe to descend from that union was the FR)
sto,
see here
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...-
dynasties.html
Non-lubavitcher chassidim do not accept the Lubavitcher mesora that the Besht's birthday is Chai Ellul. Poilshe chassidim also claim spiritual descent for the Besht. How is it then that only Lubavitch has this mesora?
They expecially find suspicious the claim that the Besht's birthday is the same as the Alter Rebbe's.
yehuda, do the non-lubavicthers have an alternative birthday for the Baal Shem Tov?
No. But since their ancestors were disciples of the Besht and the Magid, just as the Alter Rebbe was, they question why Lubavitch would have more knowledge about it than they.
now i understand the source of a disagreement regarding the yortzait, the 1st or the 2nd of shovues. some "non-lubavitchers" find it suspicious that the Baal Shem Tov's histalkus would be on the same day as dovid hamelech's. ;)
yehuda, "they question why Lubavitch would have more knowledge about it than they."
you do understand that the birthday of a tzadik, unlike the day of his passing, had never been made public. in general, birthdays were always very private events. we owe it to the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe that we know so many details, inlcuding the birthday of the Baal Shem Tov. other admo"rim just were not as generous with their hasidim.
the disciples most probably knew that the 18th of elul was the birthday. the Rebbe writes that for the Rebbeim the 18th day of elul was very private "יום הילולא פנימת בסוד אתכסייא" on that day they used to say דא"ח בהצנע for their sons.
in short, the "non-lubavithcer" disciples almost certainly knew the birthday as well. but they chose not to disclose it.
But there are many descendents of the disciples, non of which have a mesora of the Besht's birthday. And it's a very interesting day, "Chai" and Ellul, as opposed to the public histalkus of the alter rebbe, a poshute 24 Teves. And isn't it a strange coincedence that only Lubavitch has the mesora that the Alter Rebbe, the true yoresh of the Besht according to Lubavitch, has the same birthday as the besht?
1. Maharal's yortzeit is 18 Ellul. Yehuda, you need to investigate this one!
2. If there is indeed no mesorah regarding the date of Baal Shem Tov's birthday among other disciples, could it be, perhaps, because it was not their birthday as well (thus there simply wasn't anything significant about that date for them to remember and transmit)? To put it simply: I bet if something occurred on your birthday, you remembered the date of that event better than other people.
Yehuda, it’s way too convenient that the Maggid's yortzeit is 19 Kislev. You need to investigate this one as well.
The Previous Rebbe’s liberation on his birthday 12 Tammuz is suspicious.
3 Tammuz – the day the sun stopped at Givon – something fishy here too.
Berl,
I know that R' Schneur Kotler of Lakewood, was a great man, but to claim that the sun stopped at Givon on the day of his petira 3 Tammuz, is somewhat exaggerated.
Is there any non-Lubavitch source that the Maharal's yahrtzeit was 18 Ellul?
As for the Alter Rebbe being freed on the Magid's yahrtzeit (which is of course true), I read once that mathematicially there is a 1 out of 26 chance of 2 people having the same birthday. However, I think that Lubavitch is pressing the odds.
R. Naftali Tzvi of Ropschitz was born on Shavous 1760, the same day and year that the Baal Shem Tov passed away.
11 Nissan - yortzeit of Ramban and the Sheloh Hakodeish.
24 Teves - Gifter of Cleveland (gasp!).
While I do not attribute great importance to all these dates coinciding, nevertheless, since Yehuda feels so strongly about the issue, that I feel a need to oblige.
(18 Ellul is sited everywhere as Maharal's yortzeit, but who knows – it could be another case of "your donations to Lubavitch at work.")
18 Elul 5369 is reportedly given a Maharal's yortzeit by Otto Muneles in Epitaphs from the Ancient Jewish Cemetery of Prague, published by The Israel Academy of Science and Humanities.
I guess one can simply ask someone in Prague to take a snapshot of the matzeivoh and put the matter to rest (no pun intended - honest).
Maybe it will even get Yehuda to go to Queens un beten mechiloh ba’m Freirdinker Rebbe’n for all the insinuations (not a bad idea on the eve of Rosh Hashono) un agav uisbeten a gut gebentchter yor.
un yezt vill ich vinchen allemen a gut gebetcht' yor - leshono teivo umesuko tikoseivu veseichoseimu!
Berl,
While I'm not a mathematician, I believe that since the Maharal's petira on 18 Ellul occured first, there is nothing statistically unusual about that. However, one's suspicions does get aroused, when the Besht's and Alter Rebbe's birthday, both were revealed by the Rayatz to occur so neatly on the Maharal's yohrtzeit.
As for asking mechila, I didn't take away the Rayatz's semicha, as you did to Rav Gifter.
As for you last statement, about Oys betten a gut yohr, I couldn't agree more. A gut yohr of dir, uhn alle yidden.
Yudel is me,
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