mentalblog.com comments:
In Congress Poland the custom in many large cities was to have a "gaon av beth din " - a Communal rav.
In most of these cities there were rival chasidic groups like Ger, Aleksander, Radzin, Radzimin, Radomsk, Soktchov-Kotzk and others competing for the rabbinate.
In many cases each court was seeking to place a relative of the rebbe in the Communal rabbi's chair, or a scholar close to the rebbe.In Lublin Lithuanian rabbis like Reb Eliahu Klatzkin of chabad background and rav Schneur Zalman Liader (not of the Beth Horav) served as the "Lithuanian " chief rabbis.
These fights became so routine and violent that many cities had an unwritten code that only a "Mitnagid: or a Litvishe rav could be elected to the communal rabbinate as a compromise.
his halted all the in fighting. thus Warsaw traditionally had a Litvak or a non chasid as its chief rav like rav Yankele Gezuntheit, rav Shlomo Zanvil Klepfisz Rabbi Perlmutter etc. Only in the 1920's did a chasidic scholar of note gain election to the Warsaw rabbinical council that being the kadosh rav Menachem Ziemba a Gerer Chasid.
So too, perhaps in Russia and the Ukraine a Lithuanian rav should be chosen as chief rabbi to prevent internicine strife between competing Lubavitcher factions and personalities.
Thus neither R. Chaiken or his competitor should be chief rabbi, rather either Rabbi Bleich or a Olemsher rav should be elected chief rabbi and Rav Chaikin could remain in Belgium and his colleague could be chief rabbi of Kiev.And shalom al srael.
Yes, Schneur – what a terrific idea!
MO will replace the sheluchim in Minsk and elsewhere in the FSU. Snags will be appointed "Cheif Rabbonim". As for the Lubavitchers, they will be relegated strictly to the "dirty work" of fundraising, shiurim, soup kitchens, etc. But the authority of the rabbinate will be vested with the "oilemshe" snags, who will be busy re-writing history and teaching the newly initiated that Chabad is an evil cult. Why didn't any one think of this before?
Wait, where did I hear this if-only-you-gave-something-up-we-would-have-peace of idea before?
Daloy the Chiefs. Last I checked no state in USA has a Chief Rabbi. By artificially inventing this centralized institution in FSU Jews has succumbed to the centralized totalitarian mode of that retched communist jungle. If we valued Rabbis by what they had to contribute to the world of Jewish ideas, than they would have had congregations to be in charge of, not countries, republics or buildings. As to the Schneur's suggestion, Rabbis in Warsaw were there to resolve dinim. The Chiefs in FSU are there to appear in photo ops with their mafia handlers.
berl, i agree with you in general. however, the rabbinate also involves plenty of the "dirty work" of a different kind, e.g. complicated gittin and ichus, giyurim, kashrus etc. until very recently chabad rabbis in russia chose not to be actively involved in these issues.
Every major of minor city in Europe had a Chief Rabbi, some still do; Paris and more notably London still have very functional centralized Batei Din.
In general, the Halachic system most certainly does count geography as a factor. "באתרי' דמר הלכה כמר": The Rabbi of a place is to decide the Halacha for that place. This concept has been binding from the time of גלות בבל until America.
America was the first instance where Jews from numerous existing communities and religious/social structures came at roughly the same time, thereby creating a system where authority is based on community label rather than geography.
When Rabbonim were elected in Crown Heights, the Rebbe specifically instructed the relevant people to make sure that the word "Lubavitch" not appear anywhere, that the Bais Din should be binding on all Crown Heights residents.
The Chief Rabbis in Russia would have a niche for existence, if they would be educated not as Rabbis, but Rabbonim.
I think that the imports can’t possible relate to the locals. The Rabbi in Sumy is form Santa Monica, Calif. Let’s get real, this is a joke. I can’t possible see a guy from Santa Monica able to nurture the Sumy souls in meaningful way. Even Ruven Stul AKA Asman (great name change) is also from Leningrad.
how a nikolayev-born, yekaterinoslav-raised rabbi can relate to the americans and nurture their american souls in a meaningful way?
Sorry, faruq. The comparison is corny.
Leningrad
Riga
Berlin
Warsaw
Paris
amerika nit anderesh, my tochas, Faruq.
faruq, we are taking about off the boat Santa Monica kid. Somebody who barely speaks the language and unlike the Rebbe has no translators and no people to hold court with in his native language.
ta, bleich speaks fluent russian, many lubavitchers speak fluently, as well. the kid from califormia will adapt much sooner than you can imagine. do not forget, most of these kids are not overburdened with education, they are blank, and changing mental and verbal clothing for them is easy.
cut the bs faruq
TA, fine
To be fair, there aren't many Russian-born men who can and want to lead communities in the FSU. The next generation will undoubtedly see a drastic increase. Until then we'll have to make due with what we have, Hungarians, Californians, et.al.
TA. The probable reason for having a Chief in these places (former Soviet block among others) is to be the beneficiary of government handouts of buildings and other property - including some restitution - when these eventuate.
There was a big stink not long ago about Sifrei Torah in Russia, with the Reform movement also claiming some of them. As Rush Limbaugh would say "follow the money".
That great 770 saying "yeder Kaker hot a locker" gathers further impetus nowadays when everyone with a PC and printer can become a Chief by virtue of what the freshly printed paper has to say.
Nisht af Haint Gedacht.
you can't judge the s monica rabbi, doyou know anything about him? he may have spent his bochur shlichus years in Russia or the Ukraine, how can you judge without facts on the ground?
most if not all of the Shluchim the Rebbe sent were not natives to their SHlichus locations so? They stayed, they 'horoved', preservered and became part of the people they were sent to serve. How is this different? Particularly considering that in the case of Sumy, there was no Rabbi until Levitansky came along.
TA, I disagree with the notion that the sheliach/Rov’s country and city of origin are in any way determining factors in his ability to nurture his flock. It has everything to do with his innate wisdom, insight, attitude and nothing to do with geography. Simply put, a person that possesses those fundamental qualities can also overcome cultural divides (that are indeed real), but a person that does not – well, cultural cohesion with his congregation will save neither his ass, nor his stul.
Besides, as the saying goes - אין נביא בעירו .
everyone here has a valid point. But for what is worth underlying notion is the hunt for restitutions and buildings while the real yorshim are killed by nazis or long gone to Israel, USA etc. This is a sick and upsetting game.
And here in Boston we have 50 thousands Russian Jews alone who are bereft or rabbinic guidance because even the “rabbi” who speaks Russian is here in Boston to prove Berl’s point.
what bothers me most of all, is that there are, as TA says, hundreds and thousands of Russian and Bukharan kids being assimilated in the great American stinkpot -- and no one is electing any "chief rabbi" for them!
It seems that there is something to be gained by appointing someone over the Neshamos of Kiev Jews, rather than the Kiev Jews who came to America.
and no matter what their letterhead says, all those "chief rabbis" of Ukraine were only able to go and do and accomplish because Rabbi Bleich blazed the way and did one of the best jobs around...
let me see any of these chiefs produce as many students al derech hayashar that Rabbi Bleich has
where, pray tell are these masses of frum children that Rabbi Bleich has produced?
Re comments by 770 bachur.
In fact few cities in Western Europe have recognized chief rabbis . Most chief rabbis in Europe are self proclaimed chief rabbis recognized neither by the law of the country or by the majority of Believers in that city.
Yes paris has a chief rabbi and so does France, but the charedim of all stripes do not recognize their halachic authority.Rabbi Routtenberg serves 1 group of Charedim as MDA of paris as does rabbi Pevsner.
In the UK there is a chief rabbi who has quasi legal recognition but the Federation of Syns, the Sefardic Congs , and the large charedi community do not recognize his halachic authority and they all have competing Bote Din. The charedim
have their own rav in London Horav Padwa shlit'a.There is no chief rabbi in Italy although the Lubavitcher rav in Milano calls himself chief rabbi of that city.
Germany also has no chief rabbi.
Vienna has a chief rabbi Eisenberg (whose father the former chief rabbi was bitterly attacked by the rebbe) but who is not recognized by the several congs of Charedim there.
Its important to distinguish between chief rabbis whose function is to represent the Jews to the govt and chief rabbis in the form of a gaon Av beth Din appointed by the kohol.
Which city in Europe has a av beth din recognized by all religious Jews? Not Antwerp where there are 2 Orthoddox communities.Not London, Switzerland has no chief rabbi and Zurich has at least 2 different charedi congs and a Modern orthodox congregation.
In fact only a few communites like Turkey have real chuief rabbis with a universally recognized beth din.
Even a small community like Denmark which has a chief rabbi has a vibrant charedi community who does not recognize the chief rabbi.
In the USa I would posit that S. Louis does have an orthodox chief rabbi Rabbi Shalom Rivkin. Elizabeth does too.
For some reason Lubavitchers have taken to the title chief rabbi as it serves their PR needs. In most countries in east Europe the chief rabbi is also the only rabbi.
manhattan -
all over the world, literally.
I myself know probably over a hundred scattered between Israel, America and Ukraine.
bleich shmeich.
im just gonna take a wild guess here and that is that yuschenko has a "warmer" relationship with rabinovitch than he does with leviev.
what happens when putin (finaly) goes? al tischaber loroshus......
curious experiment - try a google or other search to see what rabbis accomplished tons in Kiev Ukraine. Then you can say, Bleich shmeich, sto pratzent
i have no real opinion on rabbi bleich. g-d bless him. i never met the man.
my comments about him were not intended to be derogatory.
tzemach wanted to know why bleich wasnt mentioned in the article.
now the answer to that would be that leviev was on good terms with kochma and rabinovitch apparently, is oiling yuschenko today.
bleich could be wonderful, but that has little to do with getting recognition or being selected chief rabbi. this has little to do with qualification my friend and poor sue fishkoff, lubavitcher hero, has little understanding of that.
sorry for not being clear the first time.
Hey, Shneur - Milan has a chief rabbi (Laraz) nevertheless Rabbi Garelik gets called chief rabbi outside of Milan.
Fluent in Russian, Hebrew, Yiddish and English, Jewish life in Ukraine is not new to this 30-year-old leader. Levitansky spent two years in Kharkov as a rabbinical student. Levitansky chose to remain in Kharkov for an additional year in order to teach at the Ohr Avner Chabad Day School.
They are lucky to have levitansky he is an incredible person. a young talmud chachum, Chasidish, a chasid with real bitul, with the ability to run a large proffesional organisation..He also has a feeling for the russian soul... do a little research into him and you will see he is the ideal chasid that you guys are always kvetching saying they no longer exist. He is truly one of the best. He could have a great place in California or anywhere but he chose to go to Sumy to the other end of the world because he believed that was his mission and I am sure he will have an incredible impact...
Rabbi bleich was the Kiev Rabbi and he was the most well connected rabbi to the goverment but he he was not all over Ukraine. of course he accomplished a lot in Kiev but his impact on the rest of Ukraine has been tiny. Ukraine did not have a central organisation with the same leval of concern/involvement/control that comes out of ohr avner Moscow. their impact was much greater in Russia proper. Chaiken came on board to cut ribbons on new ohr avner schools and photo ops and be a public face to represent the Jewish community maybe to help pasken and work with major issues of gitin etc. Rabbi chaiken was not going to be the shtadlen in the sense that rabbi bleich was. when asman who was connected to the chabad israel faction but had been cut off from them because of internal battles turned out to be the man closest to the winner of the election and brought a new oligarch to israel he was reembraced by chabad israel and since he was connected to the NEW goverment in a way bleich was no longer anymore, Asman was postioned to beome the rabbi with real connections to the goverment. Chabad israel pushed Asman's election with the other non ohr avner groups. they were happy to ge a non ohr avner rabbi in. and they were not really pushing out bleich because Asman has the real connections now. There has been some backtracking by chabad israel because it looks really bad. and I am sure there are talks going on between all parties to settle it and the big issue is for chabad israel to comes to terms with Ohr avner chabad or for ohr avner chabad to change its stucture. I am putting my bets on Leviev. look what is happening to the holdouts in minsk etc.
What IS happening to the hold outs in Minsk?
TA,
did you the drop on ball on this or is this topic not exciting enough?
You did an interview with karpov, why not boruch sholom?
Is this blog by real people about real issues or basic mozga....stva?
i spoke to Boruch Sholom but most of it was off the record by his request.
Schuner
you wrote this:Vienna has a chief rabbi Eisenberg (whose father the former chief rabbi was bitterly attacked by the rebbe) but who is not recognized by the several congs of Charedim there.:
why did the Rebbe attack the previous chief rabbi of Vienna?
KOPUSTER, I belive it was because of the "giyur factories" in Vienna for the "russians" on the way to Israel.
i see from the blogs you guys talk from the bechinas achorium!
you know somethink about somethings
and most of the time its boba meysaha
chief rabbi of lithuiana is a misnagin from england but chabad needs there own chief rabbi!!!!
WELCOME TO CHABAD
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