mentalblog.com comments:
Удавами должен править удав.
I strongely oppose the insinuation that R. Lazar is behind the whole story until proven.Goldschmidt is not a rival , shayevitch is.
The burden of proof is on Lazar now.
In czarist Russia in every town and every city there was always a Rabbi appointed by the czarist government lubavich never had a connection with those so called Rabbis most of them were am haratzim but that was not the problem the problem was that these rabbis were too close to the government of the day who did not like to say in the least yidden and were trying the whole time to destroy yidishkeit in Russia a Rabbi appointed by the government was looked as a traitor to authentic yidshkeit not long ago there was a discussion about a certain Grandson of the Rebbe the Zemech Zedek who became a Rabbi appointed by the czarist Russian government this person wrote a book in the book he mention that he was once on a train together with the Rebbe the Rsha”b and the train stopped and Chasidim were waiting for the Rebbe and this Rabbi was scared that Chassidim might harm him so the Rsha”b asked the Chassidim not to touch him (I have heard this story from a old chosid) the point is that Lubavich never was associated with the official Rabbinate the rebbe never encouraged his sluchim to become part of the established rabbinate in any city every place were a lubavicher shliach came he started everything from scratch Mikvah Shull Shchitah the Rebbe never encouraged any shliach to become part of any chief rabbinate anywhere in the world
Now Rabbi Goldsmith who is the only serious competition to Rabbi Lazar has been refused a visa to Russia who does the first suspicion fall on the Lubavicher chosid the shliach to Russia Rabbi Lazar
Could I have the views of others?
KEROOR leadership have essentially brought this whole issue upon themselves. When I spoke to Goldschmidt about his organization's official inclusion of a Reform congregation and told him that this alone will preclude any Hareidi organization from offering him meaningful help, he just shrugged it off (not surprising from an essentially MO guy). Not that Chabad's association with all kinds of Apikorsim is any better, but the Hareidi world, which is overwhelmingly Hungarian, would run away immediately at the mentionong of the word "Reform", and Chabad has already used that and will certainly do so again if needed.
Plus, the only way to deal with Chabad, as practice of last 200 years have shown, is an all-out war. Otherwise it's 1938 all over. From Chabad's founder to Lazar, mesiroys are acceptable way of getting things done, so treating Chabad as Jews with all Limud Zechus, Pshoroys etc. didn't ever bring positive results.
misnaged-in-law is an apt illustration of what Chabad is up against all over the map. The creature simply says what others think. Schneur, are you reading this?
I say - Rabbi Lazar, crush them using all the means under your disposal (while you have those means)! If you can use the government to not grant them visas - do it!
It’s haboh lehargecho - hashkeim vehargeihu time.
The Rashab did not have to discourage any Luabvitcher from joining the Kozioner rabbinate, Naturally they would not do it. But there were more than few great men who were Kozioner rabbis Halo hem : Rabbi Jacob Mazah Moscow rabbi Kantor, rabbi Isaac Rubinstein Vilna, Mr. Isaac Schneersohn Chernigov. Sholom Aleichenm was also a govt rabbi. Rabbi SZ MInor in Moscow, rabbi Eisenstadt in S. P etersburg and many others.. These people were all leshem shomayim Jews. They were not Rabbonim but served loyally to the Jews as manhige Hoeda - communal leaders..
But many Tmimim in Czarist Russia were appointed real rabbonim mitsad - by- Kohol and also shochtim mitsad Kohol. I can not think of any place in Czarist Russia they started their own kehillos like now.
A relative of mine was recently in Moscow and he said he rarely met a rabbi as non charismatic as Rabbi PG.
It seems that in these yeme Horachamim ,Rodney King (Horav hachasid .. vechuli) has it more together than many Jews . "Can't we all work together peacefully "
As my late Mother A"H would say "men ken zekh nit tzuteylen di bobeshyerusha "!?(They can not divide Grand ma's inheritance)
I just hope that Rabbi BL is not behind this move , otherwise we will amke sure not to give the shlicah in Zanzibar his visa ...
I think Rabbi BL may be the first man to hold both rabbinic offices in Russia at the same time a rav miTaam ohn taam ...
I guess the visa was denied due to the terminal lack of charisma. On these grounds can we deny an entry visa to Boston to 90% of the local Rabbis, including Chabad, MOs and even Kazennye Raviny.
berl-
my father always taught us that anyone who needs to ram his ideas down other's throats with force is probably wrong. because if they would be right, they would not be threatened by other's beliefs. if lazar needs to block another rabbi from entering the country he's operating in, it might be because what he has to sell in terms of beliefs is quite bankrupt and wrong.
people this is russia and in russia this is standard operating procedure.
heck, ive seen it done to shluchim.
To: Misnaged-in-law: Rabbi Goldsmith is not modern orthodox he is a heimshe litivishe from Switzerland
to: Schneur (1) if the rasha"b Chassidim did not join that kind of Rabbinate that means it was treifah (2) there was no great men that joined that kind of rabbinate you mention the name Rubinstein of Vilna did you know that the chofetz chaim (whose yahrzeit is today) led the fight against him becoming the official Rov of Vilna I would say that the Lubavicher Chassidim in Vilna before the war probably did not recognize Rubinstein as a rov at all (3) correct the tmimmim were appointed in kehilos that were not recognized by the government my point is that Lubavich never ever had to do with the official Rabbinical establishment (4) if the Rsha”b would have a chance to make Austrit Gemide (separate orthodox congregations) in Russia like there was in Hungary the rsha”b would have established separate kehilos in Russia
A comment on Shmarya’s blog points to the pattern of visa denials also affecting the Christians:
http://www.assistnews.net/Storie...s/
s05090035.htm
grose,
Do not put words in my mouth. I agree that no one should be threatened by other people's beliefs. But we are not talking about "beliefs" here: "the only way to deal with Chabad, as practice of last 200 years have shown, is an all-out war”. Perhaps, in your world view Mein Kempf is also merely "other people's beliefs"?
I am 100% for your right "to disagree with me", but I am 100% against your right to translate your disagreement into active war against me. And I believe it to be 100% moral for me to use every means available to “defend my way of life”.
To: KOPUSTER
I know PG personally, and he is not a heimisher at all. His deyoys, the way his shul is run, the way his Bais Din operates etc. (if you want protim, I'll be ready to oblige) are into Mizrachi territory. His levush is Hareidi, but do you think a Chief Rabbi would wear shorts? Do you suggest Metzger is Hareidi?
According to Haaretz his visa expired, that sounds like a normal thing because visa's DO EXPIRE!
Maybe he should of re-newd it instead of thinking that russia is backwards anyways so there is no need to renew it.
So blame lazar, blame the jews!
meshulach –
"He said the border guards told him that his Russian visa had been annulled, but gave no further explanation. He flew back to Israel after being denied entry."
Annulled means revoked, not expired:
http://dictionary.reference.com/...arch?
q=annulled
"Main Entry: an·nul
Pronunciation: &-'n&l
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Forms: an·nulled; an·nul·ling
1 : to declare (a marriage) to have never validly existed —compare DIVORCE
2 a : to make legally void b : to declare to no longer have legal effect"
The burden of proof is on Lazar now.
Tzemach
--
Rabbi Goldshmidts organization released a Press release today that his Visa being anuuled had nothing to do with politcs or community struggles.
Rather Rabbi Goldshmidt entered Moscow with a buisness visa and the new Russian law stipulates that clergy must enter only with a cultural/religious visa as invited by a religious org and not a buisness.
No Anti Semitism, No Anti-Anti Chabadniks, No Lazar informing.
none of the lies and scnadales you tried to create.
Tzemach, An apology to Rabbi Lazar is in order
Реакция КЕРООР и МЕРО в связи с проблемами, возникшими при въезде в РФ Главного раввина Москвы Пинхаса Гольдшмидта
Конгресс еврейских религиозных организаций и объединений в России и руководство Московской еврейской религиозной общины не видят каких- либо политических или идеологических мотивов в факте прекращения действия въездной визы Главному раввину Москвы Пинхасу Гольдшмидту.
Этот инцидент не имеет никакого отношения к взаимоотношениям государственных органов и религиозных организаций в России вообще и еврейских в частности .
Причина сложившейся ситуации носит технический характер и связана с мерами по приведению в соответствие визового законодательства о въезде в РФ.
Руководство КЕРООР и МЕРО выражает надежду, что компетентные государственные структуры окажут необходимое содействие в оформлении необходимых документов, и раввин Пинхас Гольдшмидт сможет в самые святые и торжественные для евреев дни Рош –а-Шана (Новый Год) и Йом Кипур (Судный день) быть в Москве вместе со своей семьёй, а прихожане Московской хоральной синагоги и члены еврейских общин России встретят Дни Покаяния рядом с одним из своих духовных лидеров.
Руководитель отдела общественных связей КЕРООР
Владимир Плисс
http://www.interfax-religion.com...ct=news&
div=372]]Admission if Shayevich
Goldshmidt came on a buisness Visa and was not invited by the Choral Synagogue.........
and of course the Jew haters/Lubavitch haters pounce on Lazar ....point fingers and blame.
An APOLOGY is in order to Rabbi Lazar
Kopuster - if you think the Rashab would have sanctioned Austritt gemeindes in Russia , I must say you do not understand the history of Russian Jewry in the 19th and 20th centuries and the traditinoal Chassidic attitude towards Klal Israel. Not the attitude of the Chasam Sofer but of the Baal Shem Tov.
I know fully well about Rabbi Rubinstein , but did you know he was one of the select YAD (14) bachurim sent by the Alter of Slobodka ZT"L to start the Yeshiva in Slutsk.And later he was Rosh at YU together with the "friend of Lubavitch" rabbi Joseph Baer Soloveitchik.Do me a favor and read about the glorious activities of Rav Rubinstein bemisiras nefesh bepoel mamash in Vilna during World war 1 under the German occupation.
Und zum saf fregt zich die kashe why ddid not the 7th Rebbe join the austritt gemiendes in the US like Satmar and just isolate themselves. Instead Lubavitch tries to infiltrate every orthodox group around except where they are not welcome ---- the present day Austritt gemeindes like Satmar, and Breuers.
Annuled ashmuled, he was not let in becuase his visa was no good as josh pinted out.
So all dumb misnagdim go get a life and stop blaming the jews and chabad
From interfax-religion.com
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28 September 2005, 15:39
New rules likely cause of Rabbi visa denial - Shayevich
Moscow, September 28, Interfax - Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt may have been denied entry to Russia under new rules concerning the issuing of visas to foreign religious leaders, Russia''s Chief Rabbi Adolf Shayevich told Interfax on Wednesday.
"Foreign rabbis and priests can now only enter Russia on the invitation of a centralized religious organization working here. As far as I know, Rabbi Goldschmidt was invited by a business, not by the Moscow Choral Synagogue," Shayevich said, adding that Goldschmidt is a Swiss citizen.
He said that Russia''s Congress of Jewish Religious Organizations and Associations is considering extending an invitation to Goldschmidt.
Borukh Gorin, a spokesman for Russia''s Jewish Communities Federation, said that "the Federation is prepared to provide assistance to rabbi Goldschmidt should he request it."
"Unfortunately, I have no exhaustive information about why Goldschmidt was denied an entry visa. If the inner community conflict is involved, I think it outrageous and inadmissible to use such methods in their tug-of-war," Gorin said.
see the update to the post
Uhh, meshulach, Josh, etc. ***ONLY*** Chabad and the Chabad-run FJC is recognized by Putin. Other Orthodox religious groups are ***NOT*** recognized. Goldschmidt now needs to get in through Lazar. Get it?
Borukh Gorin, a spokesman for Russia''s Jewish Communities Federation, said that the Federation is prepared to provide assistance to rabbi Goldschmidt should he request it.
Flashback to my interview with Boruch Gorin in June:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...-in-
former.html
TA: So what Rabbi Karpov needs to do to return his community to normal?
BG: Nominally the synagogue is operating to our satisfaction because the conditions of the previous building owner are observed. But personally I am not happy with this situation as I understand that R. Karpov is not function to his full potential. We are ready and willing to assist him. But he has to ask for our assistance.
TA, this is from the Maariv, your link:
13. גם לחב''ד הוא מיצר צעדים
דוד ק., מוסקווה, 28/09/05 02:22
ארגון חמ''ה הינו גוף חבדי הרבה יותר ותיק מאשר אור אבנר אשר הוקם עוד על ידי האדמו''ר הקודם מחב''ד... ופועל במוסקווה עשרות בשנים. וכיום לאזאר מתנכל לי ולארגון אך ורק מפני צרות עין... כך שאני בהחלט מאמין לסיפר עם גולדשמיט
is this rabbi dovid karpov?
As a frequent traveler to Moscow, I don't believe that the border guards have carefully examined PG's visa, and even if they did, have wasted an opportunity to get $200 - 300 from him for "straightening out" the situation. Unless, of course, they were following an order from above. So, of course, Lazar comes out "âåñü â áåëîì" and states he has nothing to do with the story. As about Chabad's claim of being "last" to do a mesiroh, from the Vilno mesiro of 1798 till "Didan Notzach" and beyond, the facts and documents speak louder than words.
faruq, i need to get updated on his situation. I hear different things. I will call him tomorrow. It is hard to belive that he would write this.
Misnaged, what was "Vilno mesiro of 1798"?
"א מתנגד איז א דבר מאוס"
F.A.S. - this is not just a misnagged, this creature learned in a Lubavitcher Yeshiva, so he is following in a great tradition of various gedeilim un andere kefuiet teivoh leminneihem. I only hope they never gave him kasha there… I know, that was an evil thing to say.
R'Goldschmitt studied at a Mizrachi style yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel, his parents are members of the Yeckishe kehilla in Zurich.Today he may lean towards the chareidi outlook, but in typical Lubavitch fashion anyone disagreeing becomes a Litvisher and a misnaged, both of which he is not!
yukel, the comments where not about Goldschmitt, yukel.
Tzemach Atlas,
Vilno mesiroh is a Part 1 of a story, Part 2 of which is being sold by Chabad as a story of imprisonment of its founder. In short, a guy named Meir ben Refoel, who was one of the Parnossim of Vilno Kehilloh, turned into an underground chossid and organized a chassidic minyon in his house. After the Kehilloh found out, he was brought into the Bais Din and warned to stop these activities, or else he will be removed from his position as a Parness. He promised to stop, then reneged. He was brought into the Bais Din again and was nisba al daas bais din to stop, but reneged again. Then he was given malkus and put into the Kune for being oiver al shevuoh.Everything was done through Bais Din.
What he did as a responce was to write a mesirroh to the Russian government that the Roshey Kehilloh are underreporting the number of Jews in Vilno in order to reduce the tax burden on the Kehilloh (which was probably true). Russians have jailed the Roshei Kohol and put Meir ben Refoel with a few other members of his gang in charge of the Kohol. It took a lot of money and effort to resolve the issue with the Russians.
The founder of Chabad, as is clearly seen from his dated letters, has supported him before, during and after the mesiroh. That was the reason why the evil misnagdim have organized what Chabad calls malshinus on Chabad founder.
Schneur, is the previous comment accurate?
faruq, I spoke to R. D. Karpov. The comment in Maariv is not his (he said may be Dov Kontorer, I doubt it).
He presented to me 3 versions of what might have happened to Goldshmidt. And he said all three do not look believable. He also spoke to R. Goldshmidt yesterday who told him that this issue is resolved.
The three versions are:
1. Or Avner – he doesn’t see how it benefits them
2. Slutzker, head of the Congress ( R.G. left the congress after a conflict with Slutzker) who had a personal disagreement with R. G.
3. Custom agents annoyed at R.G’s nonchalant attitude decided to improvise and teach him a lesson.
Высылка раввина из России – эхо борьбы с миссионерами?
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29.09 11:50 | MIGnews.com
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Как сообщал MIGnews, на этой неделе в московском аэропорту Домодедово российскими пограничниками был задержан раввин Большой хоральной синагоги Москвы Пинхас Гольдшмидт (42). Ему было заявлено, что виза его аннулирована, после чего раввин был депортирован в Израиль. Скандал по поводу депортации П.Гольдшмидта широко освещается в израильской и мировой прессе.
Вчера, 28 сентября, МИД России дал комментарий по поводу этого инцидента. Официальная позиция Москвы, а также руководителей ряда влиятельных еврейских организаций России такова: речь идет о "технической" проблеме, которая вскоре будет решена.
МИД Израиля по-прежнему воздерживается от каких-либо комментариев в связи с депортацией из России Пинхаса Гольдшмидта.
Редакция MIGnews располагает информацией о том, что виза П.Гольдмидта хоть и была действительна до августа 2006-го года, относилась к категории "бизнес-виз", поскольку была оформлена на основании приглашения, полученного от одной из российских бизнес-структур. Несмотря на высокое положение, занимаемое Гольдшмидтом в течение последних 16 лет в иерархии руководства еврейских общин России, он долгое время пользовался обычной туристической визой.
Несколько месяцев назад в Российской Федерации был принят новый закон, согласно которому религиозные деятели, являющиеся гражданами других государств (а П.Гольдшмидт имеет швейцарский и израильский паспорта), могут приезжать в Россию исключительно по приглашениям зарегистрированных религиозных организаций. Принятие этого закона лоббировалось русской православной церковью. Очевидной целью новых правил выдачи
i cant speak for misnageds accuracy. but they always said that avigdor was playing tit for tat when he accused the AR of treason which was punishable by death.
its true that chassidim (not only in vilna) involved government to alleviate the persecution against them. they wanted to be recognized by the govenment as the jewish authority in town etc. chabad historians dont deny these events (which ultimately led up to the ma'asor)
in general the AR wanted chassidim to keep a low profile politicaly (- i think. schneur correct me if im wrong please)
he did not want to antagonize the misnagdim.
i think there are even some letters from him telling chassidim to behave.
100%:
in general the AR wanted chassidim to keep a low profile politicaly (- i think. schneur correct me if im wrong please)
he did not want to antagonize the misnagdim.
i think there are even some letters from him telling chassidim to behave.
If you look at the dates of these letters, they are written AFTER the imprisonment. Which further illustrates my point about effectiveness of an all-out war against Chabad.
quite the contrary misnaged.
this would seem to imply that now that chassidim yodom al ho'elyoinah and avigdor was disgraced the AR did not want them capitalizing on it and harrassing misnagdim.
which by the way would also prove the ineffectiveness of an all out war against chabad.
100%,
I'm not going to argue with you about interpretation of the facts. It's enough for me that the facts themselves illustrate that the official Hasidic history (Bais Rebbe etc.) is a total fiction similar in its reliability to Wild West history, and that modern Chabad is not, as some Satmar people might say, a distortion of Derech BS, but its natural and logical continuation.
misnaged
youre jumping around. i think we pretty much agree on the facts and have different opinions.
there is no purpose in continuing this conversation. i hereby close it.
have a gut gebentchten yohr and a kvct.
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