mentalblog.com comments:
zucht a shiduch?
try someone closer to your own age.
Re Miss. Shwartz: Her father is a gentle and kind man, a real heilike neshomoh (and I do not throw such accolades around indiscriminately). No mater how Miss. Shwartz feels about froomkeit, she has got to be one sick puppy to show such blatant public disregard toward her parents (and such parents to boot). This is a matter of simple menchlechkeit, not religion.
Berl, it says she is running a "Chabad House". I would imagine there is need for her services, you might say hesed. In that capacity she is speaking to a reporter. Why would that be disrespectful to her parents?
Do not be silly. If she were running a whorehouse, there would also be a very real and pressing ‘need for her services’. Would you still ask me how she was ‘disrespectful to her parents’?
Her father is devoted melamed who dedicated his life to a cause. His daughter is publicly trying to undo her father's lifework and has established an organization to do so. Ain lecho bizui av godeil mizzeh! Rachmonoh litzlan!
is her father a BT? BTW, G-d decided that Esav should not remain anonymous.
yep. it says that her parents are bts.
berl, its in the genes. every society demands conformity. her parents rebeled against their society and shes doing exactly the same.
for sure it is more complicated than genes. I want to interview her. Find me her number, because I will find it myself anyway.
Here's the website of Ms. Schwartz's group http://footstepsorg.org/
TA,
On the seriously unrelated but eminently interesting subject of ‘Esau’s anonymity’: in terms of freedom of speech, G-d seems to have left Himself a lot more room for discretion then us.
sto,
All jokes aside, I doubt there is a rebellious gene at play here. The reasons kids do not stay frum are many and bah"r this epidemic has touched all kinds of families, as I am sure you know. Neither did all the BT’s see themselves as rebelling against anything when they turned to frumkeit – many felt they were simply restoring the natural order of things in their families and had indeed shlepped their parents along for the ride. Kids leaving frumkeit was not my point anyhow - I was only commenting on subject’s very unique willingness to cause such public pain to one's parent. That’s what really freaked me out about this girl. ‘Nuf said.
Berl, see, she is following her grandmother: Footsteps: Our History.
The melamed is in trouble from his mother and daughter...
I do not believe the crap on her site. One comes away with an impression that there are 2 alternatives for these kids:
1. ultra-orthodox-darkly-oppressive-insular-no-
secular-career-or-education-misery.
2. totally-unobservant-wonderfuly-liberating-
education-and-career-opportuniies-filled-bliss.
Does anyone here not know that there are many charedi and many more modern orthodox institutions that help frum kids get secular career-oriented education? You would not know this from that dedicated richuk worker. The posthumous use of her grandmother for the cause is sick. The girl needed financial support her parents could ill afford. The grandmother provided it. Great. All as it should be. What’s it got to do with her present mission?
Let’s be honest here: She is helping kids with the career and educations stuff so that they can go frei, not the other way around! Care to point out a single orthodox career-building resource on her ‘resources’ link?
berl, I would presume many of her clients are from communities unlike Lubavitch, they are really closed.
I went to school with Malkie Schwartz- her story is far less glamorous than anything portrayed in Unchosen or her person profile on Footsteps.org. In fact, her father comes from an wealthy and crusty upper east side family which disapproved of his becoming religious and shunned him completely, both emotionally and financially. At the same time, the grandparents consistently reminded the children in the family, i.e. Malkie and sibs, that if only they would leave religion they would be welcomed with open arms (i.e. given a share of the family $ pie). Her father is a melamid and she's from a family of over 8 at least plus she has a severly disabled sibling... so just imagine how rosy her life had been. Couple that with extreme intelligence, the feeling of being an outsider to the ffb clans in crown heights no matter how hard she tried and no matter how 'chasidish' she behaved and appeared, and you've got a girl who at 19 years old just one day up and leaves her destitute and noisy home and moves in with her posh and doting grandmother.
Then she does what any good lubavitcher does and starts to think about all the other Jews 'in need', however crooked that may sound, and she founded Footsteps. The program never really took off- at the meetings they basically pass around condoms and sex-ed pamphlets, talk about what it was like to walk into McDonalds for the first time and curse out their parents and teachers for causing them so much guilt and shame for living how they want to, bla bla bla. So that's the short story.
Of course Malkie mow has celebrity status among 'religious renegades' because she's very vocal about what she did and why. She's been quoted everywhere from the NYTimes magazine article on post-messianic chabad to lilith magazine (a jewish femenazi publication aimed at destroying all things sacred). I personally resent that in her interviews she portrays us 'fools' who choose to remain observant and continue to believe in whatever mission we call our own as frauds- she makes the presumption that we all feel like her, only we're too trapped, be it because we have no resources in the 'outside' world or because we're creatures of habit and it takes too much courage to break out the way she did. I think most people disagree. Idealism and true faith still thrive in crown heights and elsewhere and these so-called rebels don't prove anything about the life they've rebelled against. They've made personal choices about their lives and I can't stand when they make so much more of it.
TA, since you are going to interview the woman anyway, why don't you ask her:
1. does she not think it would be emotionally healthier for these kids to get the necessary career training/education while retaining the major aspects of observance instead of taking extreme and maybe inalterable steps of complete rejection of orthodox Judaism of any kind? Once established in a career and less vulnerable, would they not be able to make better long-term choices about the level of their religious observance and relationship with their families?
2. has she ever encouraged anyone turning to her for help to stay within the fold of orthodoxy of some kind and pursue a secular career?
3. on her site, a claim is made that she does ‘not attempt to persuade anyone to leave the ultra-orthodox world’. If this is so, why is she hiding this option from her ‘clients’ by not including any links on her site to ANY kind of orthodox (even modern orthodox) career and help groups as an alternative?
couple that with extreme intelligence, the feeling of being an outsider to the ffb clans in crown heights no matter how hard she tried and no matter how 'chasidish' she behaved and appeared
1. Is that really true for 2nd generation BTs?
2. about condoms. Is it really all about sex for the teens?
far less glamorous than anything portrayed in Unchosen SH, did you read Unchosen?
OK Berl, I will ask her. Any more questions for Malkie? In this world of blogging it took about ½ hour for her to virtually appear.
over the summer I met a shpitz Lubavitch family where two super smart daughters went astray. Why nobody sends me those girls, I will make them all frum...
Can't make assumptions about the Schwartz family's internal dynamics. All this could be a simple example of a yetzer hora that found a kali to manifest itself. 'Shemitzvah goreretz mitzvah, v'aveira goreretz aveirah..."
final question S. H., you write very well. What is your educational background? I imagine you didn't take writing classes at footsteps.
S.H., did you attend a Footsteps meeting or did you hear about all this second hand?
Does Malkie actively goes out to be mekarev (lehavdil)Yidden or does she passively wait for them to show up at her doorstep?
Could you ask Malkie if she knows of any frummies she considers to be content being frum or does she consider frumishkite to be some sort of malady to be cured?
Could Malkie be a lesbian and that made her feel rejected by frum society?
Could Malkie have had a traumatic experience, ie abuse victim or the like that made her neurotic? Is she 100% or not?
Does Malkie live a clean life or does she walk on the wild side?
Is Malkie working, have any career aspirations or is she lving off bubby's kesef?
Will Malkie share her own story and what lead her to establish Footsteps in the first place?
Finally, will Malkie talk about her relationship with her immediate family?
Answers to these questions would shed light on her motivations.
simchas, I think you are tzores in disguise...
who is tzores? I assure you I am not.
TA, I agree - S.H.'s post is very articulate. But I feel that ‘ffb clan’ is a bit of an oversimplification, even though there is some truth to it. Girls are very cliquish and family and social connections certainly play a role in clique formation. However, it all has a lot more to do with the natural popularity of girls with extraverted personalities than any other factor. For this reason, even girls from established 'gezha' families are at times shunned by the various cliques.
Having said that, there is little doubt that a girl from a poor family, with no extended family in the community (which means no 15 cousins in the same school), who is also an introvert, can end up feeling pretty alienated.
What percentage of girls in Lubavitch fall into this category:
http://ludgirl06.blogspot.com/
?
Lots of kids feel alienated, and they don't wind up a fry-out, and then go on a campaign against Yiddishkeit. It is one thing to make your own personal choice, but quite another to make into a holy crusade.
Besides, there are many girls without extended family members in their school, who are either children of newcomers, or the rest of their relatives are scattered far away on shlichas. Until we hear it from Malkie herself, we cannot assume we understand her motivations.
An important issue is what makes Malkie qualified to do this kind of work? Just because Malkie had her experience, it does not mean she has the ability to give the correct direction to others.
just my gut response. More I read about this more I want to meet the Melamed instead of his daughter. But it is all rumors at this point. One has to see for himslef.
Someone just sent me an email alerting me to the discussion that is taking place on this blog. I know Malkie Schwartz personally and feel confident in saying that I know the basic facts of her life, as well as the circumstances surrounding her departure from Crown Heights and the founding of Footsteps. Perhaps some of you do not agree with what she is doing, which is your perfect right. But to try to advance that position by spreading lies about her family (and there are many posted here) is not only morally repugnant, but also evidence of extreme intellectual laziness. Demonizing Malkie is a merely a tactic intended to take the focus off the serious issues she is trying to address and only serves to undermine the possibility real dialogue. That this is being done by people who are supposed to be guided by Jewish values makes it all the more repellant.
my impressions of the gals at Hot Ladies Seminary; much too flirty, clothes are too tight for Chassidic level. How many of 'our' girls are like them? Too many. What ever happened to the aidel madeilach? Any of them around anymore?
simchas,
I thought is was pretty clear that I was merely answering TA's question here http://www.haloscan.com/comments...6433665/
#114174 and not at all addressing Miss Shwartz's motives.
reader, you are incorrect. I can't speak for others but my motivation and interest is to find out who she is without prejudice. As a matter of fact that 's what I wrote to her via email. FYI there is hardly a thing anyone can say about this subject that I personally have not said already on this blog.
reader, i for one would like to understand more about her and her work and will try not to be judgmental.
about malkie:
http://www.indypressny.org/artic...?
ArticleID=1134
TA--I apologize for implying that your motivation for discussing Footsteps is in any way suspect. However, some of the comments made here by others are factually incorrect, and seem intended only to be personally hurtful to Malkie, whether or not she ever sees them.
A reader,
Are you really a reader? Cause it sure don’t sound to me like you can read.
You say ‘people’ are 'spreading lies about her family (and there are many posted here)'! Really? As best I can read, there is only one post here that contains something somewhat negative about her grandparents. That’s it. Correct me if I am wrong.
I agree with Berl, reader is reading into things. Questions have been raised, that's all.
False statement #1: "In fact, her father comes from an wealthy and crusty upper east side family which disapproved of his becoming religious and shunned him completely, both emotionally and financially."
False statement #2: "plus she has a severly disabled sibling..."
False statement #3: "The program never really took off- at the meetings they basically pass around condoms and sex-ed pamphlets"
False statement #4: "The girl needed financial support her parents could ill afford.And her grandmother provided it."
reader, All those comments were made by one person, S.H., so please address your comments accordingly without accussing others of spreading lies.
A reader,
The first 3 ‘false statements’ all came from the same single post I mentioned. I will let the very able author defend herself.
‘False statement #4’ was made by me. And if you actually read my comment that contains said ‘statement’ http://www.haloscan.com/comments...6433665/
#114155, you would have seen that it was not a ‘statement’ of any 'insider knowledge', but a reaction to what Miss Shwartz posted for all to read on the subject of her grandmother on her very web site!
(customary insult followed but was deleted by author)!
Furthermore, in what way is ‘False statement #4’ - even if one was to argue it was not an accurate read of her own desription of the events http://footstepsorg.org/history.php - negative about her family?
The only people I am accusing of spreading lies are those particular people who are posting false statements which, on a public web site, is tantamount to "spreading lies."
In terms of the "support" Malkie's grandmother gave her, where does it say that support was financial, and that her parents could ill afford to support her?
I never said that statement # 4 was negative, only that is was false.
Indeed, all the statements taken together create an impression that Malkie fled the community in search of a "posh" lifestyle, which, we all know, is precisely the fate that awaits anyone who starts a controversial, grass roots organization with little funding.
A reader,
I clearly stated it the very first post that those were my 'conclusions' upon reading the story on her website. As such, they can't be called 'false statements' by definition. Had you simply taken issue with my conclusions, I would trouble myself to explain how I arrived at them. But since you still can’t understand the difference between a ‘possibly erroneous conclusion’ and 'false statement', I doubt you'd be able to grasp the reasoning behind my conclusions.
A reader, since you seem to know so much about Malkie, why don't you enlighten us about the real story, and that way put an end to any possible rumours?
Couldn't one also accuse Malkie of 'spreading lies' about frum life in Lubavtich?
let' not get into semantics. go ahead and explain how you arrived at your erroneous conclusions. i would like to have the chance to "grasp" your reasoning.
a reader, you have backed yourself into a corner and are now splitting hairs. Berl made himself clear.
Isn't Malkie's story in the book that was the initial subject of this post?
i am decidedly not splitting hairs. i am seriously asking him to explain how he arrived at his conclusions.
a reader,
I raised many substantial questions about the activities of Footsteps in my posts, yet you choose to focus on the trivial. Why don't you first address my questions posted here http://www.haloscan.com/comments...?
a=50469#114169 and apologize for accusing me of 'spreading lies about her family'. I shall then endeavor to do my best to explain how, upon reading her website, I made the horribly erroneous conclusion that ‘her grandmother gave her the financial support her parents could ill afford to give her’. Deal?
In the mean time, so that you can concentrate on the more salient points, I rewrote my original offensive post to demonstrate how trivial 'the false statement' was even within the context of one specific point:
"The posthumous use of her grandmother for the cause is sick. The girl needed some support (be it emotional or financial, or both). For whatever reason, she turned to her grandmother for that support. Her grandmother provided it. Great. All as it should be. What’s it got to do with her present mission?"
Need I say more?
I am not sure why on earth you say that "the posthumous use of her grandmother for the cause is sick." Sick to whom? Certainly not to her grandmother, who knew and approved of her plans. I am also perplexed by your inability to understand how Malkie could have been inspired by the support (in whatever form) she received from her grandmother to offer similar support to others in her situation. Again, you might not approve of it, but it doesn't seem hard to understand the connection.
Berl,
You did raise substantial questions, all of which are perfectly valid. And only one of the false statements I noted was made by you, which you have now amended, so I am sorry to have accused you of spreading lies.
As for your questions, Malkie is obviously the best person to answer them, as nobody can speak for her. However, as I understand it, Malkie's goal is to help those who seek out her services pursue whatever path they choose. i don't think she takes any position on religious observance, pro or con. I certainly cannot speak to the issue of what organizations are on her site, but I do know that she maintains contacts with organizations representing all denominations of Judaism (yes, there is more than Orthodoxy out there), including Orthodoxy, for those who wish to address their religious questions and concerns.
a reader>(yes, there is more than Orthodoxy out there),>
Was that snyde remark necessary? I belive this remarks reveals your anti-Orthodox bias as narrow minded.
not enough ritalin, that was Malkie's problem...
Who cares what my bias is, assuming I have one? We are talking about Footsteps, not me.
A reader,
You asked: I am not sure why on earth you say that "the posthumous use of her grandmother for the cause is sick." Sick to whom? Certainly not to her grandmother, who knew and approved of her plans.
1. I suggest you ‘stop spreading lies’ about Miss Shwarzt’s family – nowhere on her site does she say or imply that her grandmother ‘knew or supported her plans’ regarding Footsteps. What she says, in fact, implies the opposite: the woman died in December 2002, she ‘was the inspiration for Footsteps’ which was founded a year after her death, in December 2003, when the support of the ‘Board of Directors’ was ‘gained’.
2. What I found sick (and I did not elaborate, because it was obvious) was a notion that a grandmother’s natural and laudable support and unconditional acceptance of her granddaughter could be twisted into the most unnatural and sick usage of a deceased mother to publicly humiliate and mentally torture her son.
(had the grandmother in fact supported Footsteps, she would indeed be such an unnatural mother.)
You said: And only one of the false statements I noted was made by you, which you have now amended.
I did not ‘amend’ my original conclusion. I in fact still stand by it. As I said, I edited my statement only to illustrate how the words you attacked were not germane to the point I was making.
You said: I don't think she takes any position on religious observance, pro or con.
She does make such a claim, but she is lying. And this my main point. Everything she chooses to say and NOT say on her site point to the same ‘conclusion’ – she is rabidly against Orthodox Judaism. Her ‘not taking a position’ on this issue reminds me of the disingenuous claims Planned Parenthood makes about ‘not promoting abortion’ but merely ‘making it available to those that want it’. In fact, Planned Parenthood never offers women alternative solutions such as adoption and is very much ‘promoting abortion’ as a solution to pregnancy.
You said: yes, there is more than Orthodoxy out there
Not sure what that has got to do with anything. But thanks for the good news - I will definitely check it out, now that I know it is ‘out there’.
We are constantly bombarded with advertisements about the issur of loshon horoh, yet the cohesiveness of modern chareidi society depends on the fear and information that is generated by gossip.
Berl,
You wrote: I suggest you ‘stop spreading lies’ about Miss Shwarzt’s family – nowhere on her site does she say or imply that her grandmother ‘knew or supported her plans’ regarding Footsteps.
As I have said in previous posts, I know facts about Malkie's life beyond those that are posted on her web site. That her grandmother knew about and supported her plans is a fact.
I am not sure what you mean by "natural" and "unnatural" here, and I certainly think you assume a lot when you say that Malkie or her grandmother mentally tortured her father. Human relationships are a lot more complicated than you seem to allow. Now, I will concede that people we love often do things that we might not like or approve of, but that are done with the intention of hurting us. Whether that is the effect has a great deal to do with how we choose to react to their actions, and how we understand a person's right to make his or her own life choices.
Well, you can stand by your conclusion, but at least you changed your language to more accurately reflect the reality of the situation.
And how do you know that she is lying? Have you spoken to her? (And have you ever been to Planned Parenthood, for that matter?) Footsteps is not a religious organization, so it does not deal specifically with religious issues.
Nowhere do we find any quote from the father claiming his mother has been misrepresented. In fact, everything points to exactly the opposite.
But what is so surprising here? Anyone who threatens Chabad's public image is routinely smeared. Even though Malkie (who I do not know) is not attacking Chabad, her notoriety and the existence of Footsteps does threaten Chabad's image – and so the long knives come out.
that are NOT done with the intention of hurting us, that is.
I think Shmarya is absolutely right about this. It is a tactic born out of fear rather any sincere interest in dialogue.
reader, there is no tactic on this blog. Do not demonize the conversation. Speak on the merits of the ideas. If you want to operate in two dimensions go to Shmaray’s blog.
I am not accusing the blog itself of having a tactic. I merely noted that focusing on Malkie Schwartz's personal life is a tactic to take the focus off the issues she is addressing (that is, the fact that there are people who make a choice to explore the world beyond their relgious communities). I am happy to discuss the issue of personal choice, etc., and don't believe that it is necessary to do so by bringing Malkie's personal life into the discussion.
agreed, hopefull we can read the book and talk about issues.
TA--thanks for being willing to slog this out. It shows very good character and, I believe, a sincere commitment to dialogue.
And that was me, A reader
I know nothing about Malkie. However, I felt some of her statements quoted in the article in Maariv are plain stupid.
From that article one gets the impression that her restrictions in seminary made her "wonder." Whoa to intelligence if restrictions by a few educators in a very specific Jewish institution and very specific Jewish philosophy made her abandon religion.
Then, we read about her psychological babble concerning Simchas Torah. I hardly know where to begin with that one. For starters, I'd like to quote Judge Janice Rogers Brown's facetious remark concerning society today: "The question is no longer to be or not to be; the question is how do you feel."
Who on earth cares what she felt like doing on Simchas Torah. According to R.S.R.H., the whole point of having fixed teffilos is that we have to remind ourselves of certain concepts three times a day no matter how we feel. If religion was always supposed to come from within, then Torah would never designate times for davenning; it would merely tell us to daven whenever we want.
I'm not suggesting that feelings are completely irrelevant. If Malkie that day was not happy about Torah, that has to be addressed, but to make a phone call on Yom Tov because of these feelings is ludicrous.
A hundred years ago, many people became irreligious because of ideas: socialism, communism, secular Zionism etc. Now we have people like Malkie who become irreligious because of feelings (and people like Isaac (another person in the Maariv article) who become irreligious because of boredom). Whoa to us.
(All the above is based on the Maariv quotes. I don't know Malkie. However, unfortunately, a large majority of those who become irreligious, in fact, do so for less than honorable or admirable reasons (add "fun" to the list).
Are we discussing the book or Malkie?
If the topic is Malkie, I might speculate that the reason she set up a foundation was to solicit grants, rather than from any wish to embarras her parents. (I have dealt with many nonprofits whose sole purpose seems to be to give the directors a parnosoh).
Why is it so threatening to some people that other people might just NOT WANT to be religious. I am not talking specifically about Malkie here, but the whole idea that there are "admirable" and "not admirable" reasons to give up religious practice is something that should be examined seriously.
Please stop "speculating" about Malkie. You are, pardon the expression, talking out of your ass on this one.
Don't worry. I have reputable tzedokas that I giv my money to; ones that I know wher th mony is going.
If all Jews were "frum" where would Lubavitch fit in? Sheluchim would be out of business. Give people a little slack. Not everbody chooses to life the lifestyle that others have cyosen
First, let the record state that I am not here to portray Malkie as villain or threat to any of the establishment that everybody is so busy either defending or decrying. She is unworthy of that much credit. I also don’t see the evil in what she’s doing, the way others do. Do you really believe that young people stay religious because they don’t have the financial wherewithal to start living on their own or the courage to start living by their own rules? This would apply to a very uninteresting few. Call me what you will, but I can see the value in having a sort of group therapy after violating rules which were previously thought to be unbreakable, but she’s hardly going around recruiting Hillel kids into her “let’s hate orthodoxy” club.
I personally find her to be a complex and fascinating person, one who I used to admire and learn from. She’s passionate, she’s genuine, and she’s got that perfect mix of confidence and neurosis which make her intriguing but not too likeable. (Warning to all ye compulsive stereotypers- this girl will not be made a caricature of.) She got it wrong when she turned herself into a martyr for this fictitious cause.
This post and the last may seem like contradictions, so let me explain. Malkie Schwartz suffers from what all smart but not brilliant people have; it’s the frightened-to-death-of-ending-up-mediocre-
syndrome. Everyone’s got their quirky ways of distinguishing themselves, but like this case, some are quite unfortunate (borderline pathetic).
Tzemach, when you do interview Malkie please pass along my message: She’ll never be exceptional until she’s learned to laugh at herself and stop taking this whole thing so darn seriously.
why does being exceptional depend on not taking oneself/one's work and interests seriously?
While S.H. and ‘A reader’ duke it out over who has the real 'inside track' on Miss Shwartz, I will just add this:
At no point was Miss Shwartz's personal life or spiritual journey an issue I in my comments. I also did not comment on the book. My comment was on TA's expressed desire (in this very post) to 'get in touch' with Miss Shwartz. TA has recently stated that he does not want to communicate with ‘someone who is not a mench’. I agree with this sentiment, and so I simply asked why he would wish to get in touch with someone who can be so cruel to here own family and so transparently deceitful about the true aims of her organization. The above are conclusions drawn from reading her PUBLIC web site. If anyone disagrees with my conclusions, you can simply demonstrate how I misinterpreted her writing. But do not bother refuting what I said by claims of ‘insider knowledge’ that are not backed up by anything other then your ‘say so’. End of story.
to "her" own father, not "here"
Berl,
I generally shy away from the rampant lashon hora on chablog, but in this case Malkie has very willingly made herself fodder for speculation, rumors and any other sick misinterpretations that people wish to project on her. Believe me, I don't claim to have the scoop, and as disturbing as this story is, I don’t think there is an easy resolution (yes TA, 2nd generation BT discrimination still exists--no, it's not a cause or justification for anything discussed here). But since already she's done us the favor of weaving the controversy around herself, I think we are all entitled to try to understand and uncover her motivations. Clearly only Malkie is priveleged to the information that we want to hear, but that doesn't help us because I think it's fair to assume that she's hardly reliable.
correction:
since she's allready
Berl, Ok--I will not appeal to any of my "insider" knowledge here but will only ask why you have come to the conclusion that what Malkie is doing is "cruel" and deceitful. Is choosing to take a different path in life from one's parents' necessarily cruel? I am failing to understand this logic. Also, it seems that you think that just because she does not list Orthodox resources on her web site she is anti-Orthodox. I would posit that perhaps this is evidence instead that religion is not the primary concern of her organization. It doesn't necessarily follow that she is hostile towards it. Maybe she thinks these other resourcs are available elsewhere. If I open a store to sell chocolates, am I obliged to also offer fruit?
reader says
This is a totally intellecutally dishonest statement. Malkie is certainly not encouraging people to be frum and is not pro-religious.
a reader says
No, choosing a different lifestyle is not cruel, but to publicly go against their way of life, and to aid others to do so, is at the very least insenstive to her parents' feelings, and if you cannot see that, then you are ethically and morally challenged.
a reader wrote-will not appeal to any of my "insider" knowledge here but will only ask why you have come to the conclusion that what Malkie is doing is "cruel" and deceitful. Is choosing to take a different path in life from one's parents' necessarily cruel? I am failing to understand this logic. Also, it seems that you think that just because she does not list Orthodox resources on her web site she is anti-Orthodox. I would posit that perhaps this is evidence instead that religion is not the primary concern of her organization. It doesn't necessarily follow that she is hostile towards it. Maybe she thinks these other resourcs are available elsewhere. If I open a store to sell chocolates, am I obliged to also offer fruit?
This is an intellecutally dishonest statement. Malkie is certainly not encouraging people to be frum and is not pro-religious.
We are not talking about selling fruit! Are you morally challenged?
No, choosing a different lifestyle is not cruel, but to publicly go against their way of life, and to aid others to do so, is at the very least insenstive to her parents' feelings. Don't you care that she may have hurt THEM or is this all about only MALKIE?
A reader,
You asked: Is choosing to take a different path in life from one's parents' necessarily cruel?
No it is not, nor did I even come close to implying that it was. Her private path was never the issue to me, only her very public stance and activism was. Taking that kind of stance, despite the inevitable humiliation and pain it must bring her family is, in my view, cruel beyond belief.
You said: Also, it seems that you think that just because she does not list Orthodox resources on her web site she is anti-Orthodox.
The issue is not, again, what she personally is or is not. However, she claims Footsteps to be impartial in how it directs its very vulnerable charges. To me her site proves otherwise (I will not restate my reasons, just re-read my posts).
Berl, a reality check in the age when Jews intermarry, covert to other religions, engage in crime, etc. This is pretty benign in that context. Let me ask you this question: Is it more shameful to marry a goy or to run footsteps?
S.H. so you went to beis Rivka with Malkie and you write like that. I do not belive it. About the argument of truth and falsehood. Does Malkie have a handicapped sibling? This should not be hard to verify.
marrying out, shamding oneself,dealing drugs or embezzelment as compared to establishment of Footsteps? Which is the bigger aveira? Only Hashem could know. Which inflicts more pain on Yiden? A matter of perspective.
Why is Malkie's public activism cruel if it helps people?
Is it more shameful to marry a goy or to run Footsteps?
May G-d save all Jews from such choices! I am WAY too superstitious to answer this.
Malkie DOES NOT have a handicapped sibling.
A reader, you are an intolerable idiot!
So Malkie is entitled to choose a different kind of life as long as she hides in the closet and hangs her head in shame?
TA wrote: " S.H. so you went to beis Rivka with Malkie and you write like that. I do not belive it."
Don't you think a reasonably talented person can develop writing skills by simply reading a lot?
An intolerable idiot? And from what charm school did you graduate? Resorting to juvenile personal attacks is always the last refuge of a weak mind.
a reader, I am not convinced she helps anyone at all. All I have seen is a website and that is no evidence that Malkie helps anyone. I have not seen anyone actually come forward and said they could not have survived after going secular without the help of Footsteps.
A G-d fearing Jew could never believe that 'helping' a Jewish soul to disobey the holy commandments is anything but destructive, both to the individual and the world. You show no empathy nor respect for the sensibilites of religious Jews. Are we not also as human at least as Malkie is?
Boruch, there is maturity of argument in her writing. I would be stunned if she is the same age and background as Malkie. I do not believe it.
Of course you are as human as Malkie is. This is not about your humanity, but the freedom of people to make choices. If Malkie were going into CH and dragging people out of there, I would agree that it would be wrong. But she isn't. I don't think Footsteps would continue to exist if there wasn't a demand.
simchas, did you read the book yet?
Ruven wrote: So Malkie is entitled to choose a different kind of life as long as she hides in the closet and hangs her head in shame?
Did anyone here suggest such a thing? Are you really so dense that you can't see anything between the extremes of 'the closet' and the New York Times? How can so many morons be on the same blog all at the same time?
She’s passionate, she’s genuine, and she’s got that perfect mix of confidence and neurosis which make her intriguing but not too likeable... Written by 20 something beis rivka graduate, nu nu
Where I come from, speaking publicly about one's own life experiences is not extreme.
TA- You know very well that education neither starts nor stops in grade school. To assume that a frum little girl from crown heights couldn't possibly write well is precisely the kind of condescension that has lead quite a few friends of mine to the idea that in order to be educated/wordly/pursuasive in this world, they’d have to do something drastic to completely shed this shameful, plebian past. I’m no spokeswoman for self-educated frum girls but I can tell you a thing or two about the masses of young Jewish woman who are extremely knowledgeable in topics Jewish and secular, make very successful careers for themselves, raise Jewish families in the proper chasidisher way, all while maintaining the façade of just the average Hasidic housewife that not only fools the idiot reporters who think they’ve really cashed in by meeting this anomaly called Malkie but very surprisingly fool you too! True, this kind of ‘liberation’ wasn’t always possible in the ultra-orthodox world, but by now it’s pretty much a moot point. Most woman work, a large number are beginning to attend college (because it isn’t a crime to develop skills that will actually pay), and believe it or not we may actually come across as educated and interesting individuals who have something unique to contribute. In my case, all I’ve contributed here is a load of ill will against Malkie (that wasn’t my intention, believe it or not) so I’m hesitant to tell you who I am, but you’ll have to take my word for it: I’m 23, I live in crown heights and I write well. Deal with it :)
[P.S. I want to apologize Malkie for bringing up the issue of her unwell sibling. It's nobody's business or fault. The Schwartz family are righteous and admirable- they are dealing with all this with such grace and dignity... I have no intention of smearing them in any way. I merely wanted to point out that growing up with extreme hardships is sometimes an impetus to do irrational and hurtful things even to the people you love. I should also say that never saw the sick child so I could possibly be wrong (although who would lie about something like that). Again, my apologies. I really regret having said anything at all.]
S.H.,
perhaps the life you describe is possible for women in CH. this is far from the case in places like KJ or New Square (where women cannot even drive), which are, of course, also chassidish communities. i can guarantee you that most women in these communities are NOT going to college.
and i will say one more time that there is no "unwell" sibling in malkie's family, but i do commend you for issuing an apology.
SH, you are awarded the coveted mental block prize for post #100.
Thank you. And what exactly does this award mean? That I'm the 100th post? Hmmmm.... noteworthy indeed.
I bet you the two sisters on the 2 row, 2nd and 3rd from the left can write...
http://www.barnard.edu/alum/clas...8/
2003home.html
Ah, the 2 gezha girls you want to reintroduce to Judaism. Well, good luck with these sisters. I hear they're hard core.
they are not gezha. BTs on both sides.
This is probably coming too late for this conversation, but here is something that was aired on WNYC a while back.
http://www.jewsrock.org/
index.cf...0541492278FCED5.
This is a story of a chassidic guy from Williamsburg that played in a rock band, had a seperate identity and actually a following. He went on to marry a fine chasidishe maidel and life in the brubs. It seems papramount pictures is considering buying the rights to his story. I had this when it originally aired. the guy has a VERY heavy accent. go figure!
Tzemach,
Interview the author, like you did with Riggs.
Also, the character "Chaim" in the book was quite compelling. He is a real machnis orach.
As someone who has been at both sides of the fence (i.e. Lubavitch and Satmar), it naturally infuriates me when someone compares these groups. When SH claims that “True, this kind of ‘liberation’ wasn’t always possible in the ultra-orthodox world, but by now it’s pretty much a moot point.” she proves that she has no idea whatsoever.
I happen to know her family very well and I question that you SH know her at all, or you are just someone (perhaps even a guy) who wants to promote your ideas and religious fanaticism on people who think otherwise. Her family DOES NOT have a disabled child. By claiming that they do you are either talking about someone else or just spreading rumors, not thinking that you might be discredited. Think again.
In either case, I have called your bluff. This is so typical of the narrow-minded it is unbelievable that otherwise you seem very intelligent. You yourself found her “passionate” “genuine” and “intriguing”, but only when she conformed to your views. When she chose her own path, she became “unworthy of that much credit” to defend or even decry her. Ach, so typical.
BTW, even if “in this case Malkie has very willingly made herself fodder for speculation, rumors and any other sick misinterpretations that people wish to project on her” , you were still ‘over’ on all those ‘avoiros’ of loshon horo and shfichas dam.
Berel writes:
"You asked: Is choosing to take a different path in life from one's parents' necessarily cruel?
No it is not, nor did I even come close to implying that it was. Her private path was never the issue to me, only her very public stance and activism was. Taking that kind of stance, despite the inevitable humiliation and pain it must bring her family is, in my view, cruel beyond belief."
So, let me get this straight. If the child of a prominent atheist becomes a hasid and opens a Chabad House at a university, that child has caused his family "humiliation and pain" and "cruel beyond belief"?
Or is it only the opposite? Someone leaves Crown Heights (after years of suffering through messianic meshugas, no less)and dares to reach out to others who also have left, only then it is "cruel beyond belief"?
Please.
Shmarya you are not better that others when you reduce human travails to a simple formula, in this case leaves Crown Heights after years of suffering through messianic meshugas Please, enough…
Simple formula? Come on! The point of my comment clearly is Berel's inconsistency. Only in passing do I mention a reason why one should be careful in demonizing Malkie – the insanity of the Crown Heights she grew up in. It's a parenthetical statement, for G-d's sake.
SH,
Forgive me if I sound harsh, but you haven’t been so nice either so I’ll allow myself to play with your rules.
There is something wrong with your thinking. It is not your fault I assume, since you do come across as bright and perhaps enlightened. Nevertheless, you still fail miserably at ‘thinking’, thinking straight that is. I did though, direct my comment to you and not to the other brainless dimwit there - who did nothing better than name-calling - because you claimed to be giving out first handed information which when discredited will also discredit the other half-truths. I know the family personally, both the father R’ M and to some extent Malkie too and it bothered me immensely that it came down to this.
First of all, I did quote you accurately and verbatim. Do not give me the I-was-taken-out-of-context whine.
Who called your bluff, you want to get picky here? Well, I did call your bluff dear, though I wasn’t the first.
So you didn’t call her cruel, how nice. You portrayed her as an evil being, and that is what caused my eruption.
Nah, this exchange is pointless. Nobody will change someone else’s mind here. I’ll just express my feeling about this through venting on my blog, and that would be it. I’ll let you know when I have it. Tolerance was main reason why I left Satmar for Lubavitch, a move that I regret daily because it was only an illusion.
Meanwhile SH, you should call up Malkie and apologize. Apologize for spreading lies about her or hotzo’as shem ra. Apologize for the loshon horah you spread about her. apologize to for being over on shefichas dam which undoubtly happened when and if she read this exchange. The above eveiros are bein adom lachveiro and can only be forgiven by God if she will forgive you too.
If she accepts your call, send her regards from her neighbor C. thanks.
I left Satmar for Lubavitch, a move that I regret daily because it was only an illusion. Con Artistic, can you please eleborate.
I'll explain it on my blog.
I would like to correct myself please, SH. Tell her C. her FORMER neighbor send regards.
TA, you will have to forgive me again, for posting my comment in the wrong section. I’m posting it again in the other post. You can delete this one.
TA, this ConArtistic moron dropped the following pearl of wisdom on his blog on Monday, Agust 22, 2005:
Once the Jews will realize that they wronged the Arabs who lived in the holy land before we used the holocaust as a pity-rouser to get the UN to grant us the holy land, things will look up. It will never happen because we have a bible. The bible clearly states that this is our land.
It isn't that it matters what he says, but is this someone you care to discourse with?
he is going back to his satmar roots. What can we do?
berl, why discourse only with those with whom you agree? I learn more by opening myself up to other people's ways of thinking.
What can he do?
Since you ask, he can go jump off the nearest cliff or... just use Gillette (tell him to slice along the vain - never across!). I know I am not SUPPOSED to feel that way. I am working on it, OK?
Berl, lol!
Yoily wears a long black rekel and sidelockes down to his neck.
Yoily's English writing and even language skills are appalling.
Yoily hasn't donned tefilen for two years now, and desecrates the Shabbos too.
Yoily has a shiksa girlfriend and doesn't give a damn about Hashem or Halacha.
Yoily is an alcoholic, cocaine addict, and dangerously depressed.
Yoily decides to check out "Footsteps" and try put his life back on track.
S H,
You accuse Malky of helping frum people leave their faith.
Wake up, the guys who contact Footsteps are long gone.
Why do you think Hashem cares less if the mechalal shabbos at least still wears a shtriemel?
Why does it hurt you more if the apikorus actually looks like one.
Is this about true Judaism, or the cultural fringes and outer trappings that you care so much about?
First Scenario:
Chaya Mushka is 17 and lives in a dysfunctional home. She thinks her parents should get a divorce. She is secretly seeing a therapist for her anger and depression. She still keeps all the mitzvot but is mad at Hashem and a bit confused. One day while surfing the net, she sees the Footsteps website and makes an appointment. She goes to a meeting where she is given unconditional acceptance and made to feel cared about and understood. She is still keeping the mitzvot but then someone in Footsteps, a young man who is very nice to her, asks her out for coffee. Chaya Mushka sees no harm in it but one thing leads to another. He talks to her about his inner desires and she begins to share her pain with him. They go out and have fun. She makes other friends at Footsteps and soon begins feeling a part of their group until eventually she decides the frum life is not for her.
Second Scenario:
Chaya Mushka is 17 and lives in a dysfunctional home. She thinks her parents should get a divorce. She is secretly seeing a therapist for her anger and depression. She still keeps all the mitzvot but is mad at Hashem and a bit confused. One day while surfing the net she finds a website of an organization by frum Jews for girls like her who are confused. She goes to one of their meetings and talks to the wonderful Rebbetzin. She meets other young women like her from other communities and they learn Torah together and they share inspiring stories of emunah and bitochon. She still thinks her parents should get a divorce but now Chaya Mushka is davening with more kavanah and is feeling much less depressed. She knows Hashem will help her and finds comfort in taking on other mitzvot like bikur cholim. She makes a resolve that she will be an eishas chayil and have the frum home her parents could never seem to make for her.
Which scenario is preferable? Depends on which side of the fence you are on:-pro or anti-frumkite?
simchas,
For the record, word on the street has it that Miss Schwarzt would not let your hypothetical CM join Footsteps unless said CM was no longer 'keeping the mitzvot'. But I still agree with your ‘wonderful Rebbetzin’ scenario (as I stated earlier on this blog).
ee efshar l'oylom b'loi poyalei kiruv u'bloi poyalei richuk; ashrei mi shebonov...
"not enough ritalin, that was Malkie's problem..."
wide grin
As someone who left the Crown Heights community I can definitely relate to the discomforts and challenges that one may have to go through to leave the community. I personally know the Schwartz family; including Malkie and her other siblings and I have been aware of the Footsteps organization since its inception in 2002.
My comments here will be brief due to the fact that I do not wish to argue or debate any of the facts stated above. I only want to make a point by stating that the reason an organization like Footsteps had to be created in the first place is because of people such as SH, and Beryl. The most basic human need is the feeling of belonging and acceptance, which in Crown Heights is permeated ONLY for people who conform to the rules and regulations in the community, while at the same time teaching and preaching acceptance to all.
Malkie's organization; Footsteps, whatever your opinion of it may be, is in no way doing harm to anyone. At the end of the day people who wish to leave the community and change their lifestyle will do it with or without help. The unrealistic scenario of Chaya Mushka above does fail to mention the fact that Chaya Mushka was surrounded by Rebbetzins and people of such inspiration all her life in the schools she attended.
The only thing Footsteps will change is the route someone chooses to take once they make their decision to leave.
The Footstep organization is a big inspiration to me and I definitely plan on contributing to it financially in the near future.
The Schwartz’s are wonderful people and my friendship with them will last a lifetime.
For those of you who tend to differ from my opinions, take a moment and look inside yourself and your surrounding and instead of trying to criticize others see how you can make a difference for others.
S.H. Since you went to school with Malkie, and you were aware of her family's situation; have you PERSONALLY done anything to ASSIST or BEFRIEND or show KINDNESS to her in any way, have you PERSONALLY done anything with a pure intention to right some wrongs, or do you ACTIVELY WASTE TIME in the day adding fuel to a fire, judging people who's SHOES YOU ARE NOT IN, and talking about people/ideas/decisions that you have no DIRECT EXPERIENCE WITH? In my book, THAT'S WHAT COMES FIRST.
IS THERE ANYONE ON THIS BLOG SPEAKING FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, OR ARE ALL OF THESE IDEAS COMING FROM A PLACE OF IMAGINING..SPECULATION..CURIOSITY?? I am on this blog to state my message and keep it short, sweet and to the point. I am an individual who has been at several Footsteps meetings and have learned and gained from all of them. I have made and established several good friends through the organization, with whom I still keep in touch with even though I am now at a point of achievement and independence. Keep up the good work Malkie!
I loved the interchange that is going one between A reader and berl. Fascinating!
But, I would like to know if
anyone here knows either the Lady Malkie Shwartz or A reader personally.
I spoke to Malkie Schwarz a few years ago - don't even remember how I met her, but we did speak and/or email back and forth a few times. She is definitely a highly intelligent, focused person.
I am a baal tshuvah myself so I went in the other direction from Malkie. I don't think anything will be gained by treating her with disrespect. I felt then and still feel now that the main lack in the charedi world is the lack of options for people to explore secular culture (on a kosher level) and still remain frum. There is nothing wrong with becoming educated at secular universities and reading 'the greats'. Reb Yaakov used to be shocked that his students had not read Anna Karenina. The Lubavitcher Rebbe had a Phd from the Sorbonne, I believe. For myself, my secular background has only enriched my religious experience. Though I would not want a child of mine to go to a 'party-college' I could certainly help a child who needed it a kosher way to get a great secular education.
I do agree it would be very helpful if Malkie included on her website links to 'ways to stay frum' while participating more in secular culture.
As a BT, I can also say that discrimination against BTs or their kids certainly only does damage in the frum world. Everyone who reads this should consider how they may have participated in that, whether it's in refusing to date a BT, or a BT's kid, or whatever.
Obviously as a religious Jew I feel all Jews are bound by the mitzvot, but I think the only way to treat someone who goes 'off the derech' is with great love. Especially if you are their family. If there were more achdut in the religious world, then children of religious families would find it much easier to transition from one form of orthodoxy to another, finding the best fit for them. If Malkie had this option at a younger age, I'd bet there's a fair chance she'd still be frum.
I live in Israel now and you often see this type of denigration in both directions in the frum world - the more yeshivish look down on the modern, the modern look down on the yeshivish. It's human nature unfortunately. The truth is halacha is remarkably broad and 'open-minded'. If you're a guy you can wear any kind of hat, even a purple one. But that's G-d's truth, and sometimes as people it's hard for us to see it...
That's my 2 cents,
Jonathan
Jonathan, you wrote: "The Lubavitcher Rebbe had a Phd from the Sorbonne, I believe."
Not true:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...te-of-
estp.html
I know most of malkie's family - they are truly nice people and live very simply.
Her father was hurt when she left the fold, but alas, wanyed the best for his elder daughters, and felt that being true to themselves was the best thing they could do. An Malkie, fofrever the shliach, beleves strongly in Chesed and making the lives of all she touches a little easier, safer and more confident.
Who would decry such a soul?
There is a need for more people at that half way point - I agree with Snyder - but it takes a special someone, with copious amounts of inner chesed to be able to function in such a role day by day.
Peace.
This group, footsteps, is a moronic organization.
Anyone that focuses on radicalism or extremism, goes into the same pot as PETA, global-warming theorists, and the like.
With that said, liberalism is probably one of the worst enemies of our generation. Where suddenly 'everybody' has the 'right' to an opinion which "must be respected".
hmmm...since when did ignorance become a point of view?
Footsteps seems more like a G-d bashing group, than an "anti-hassidic" one.
Your choice in believing or not believing in G-d, doesn't actually change any realities!
Disrespect Lubavitch, with have misnagdim for that.
Disrpespect G-d, and it's a whole new ballgame, one you're likely to lose.
I wonder where the statement "This group, footsteps, is a moronic organization" comes from. Meaning, on what basis is it "moronic"? Though I don't disagree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I think that blurring opinion with fact, or stating an opinion as a fact is wrong. Granted, only one word is keeping that statement from being factual, but that one word can be pretty harmful. Please don't blur opinion and fact.
TA, did you announce a special for Johnie-come-lately's this week?
i was wondering about something. If a married man with four children and a sensitive, innocent wife decides one day "not to beleive" is it kinder to help him find a way to personal peace outside the community? Or is there some degree of kindness due to his innocent family who will undoubtedly be terribly scarred and shaken by this decision? Even if its hard, isn't there an obligation to the family to honor the commitment made before the marriage and their birth? Does malkie consider this perspective in her work? Or is this just part of a be-true-to-yourself mentality, regardless of prior commitments and who gets hurt in the process?
An intense but exciting week confronts me tomorrow. Its success is dependent on me going to bed half an hour ago. I choose to remain on the computer because my heart desires so. It is detrimental.
I am proudly a chabad chasid. I feel there is nothing better for me or anyone than listening to and learning from the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
I know I can make an unimaginable positive impact on myself, whoever I meet and the entire world
I believe the world was created for us to dis-cover how it could be really good.
As a teenager I sought an indulging lifestyle. I could have chosen to do as Miss Shwartz and been the topic of this discussion.
But mysteriously it hit me that it was not ideal for me to do whatever my heart desired. I wanted to do what was independently right.
I don't believe Miss Shwarts is where she is today because she locked herself in her room and made an intellectual decision that this would be meaningful or good for her.
I think it is because she is human. We all struggle to reject instant gratification especially when it masks itself in an intellectual argument.
I currently am no less guilty then miss Shwarts as I follow my evil inclination's advice to remain awake.
I believe in myself and Miss Shwarts although until this night I have never heard of her. I believe we could should and will put Mind over Heart to win our battles.
PS. Miss Shwarts please come home... its all worth it!
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