mentalblog.com comments:
S.H. I think I am in love with you... But you might be a man after all...
I am not a man... but I'm married to one.
It seems as if the discussion there ended before I got the chance to say my word. So with your permission TA I’ll post it here too.
As someone who has been at both sides of the fence (i.e. Lubavitch and Satmar), it naturally infuriates me when someone compares these groups. When SH claims that “True, this kind of ‘liberation’ wasn’t always possible in the ultra-orthodox world, but by now it’s pretty much a moot point.” she proves that she has no idea whatsoever.
I happen to know her family very well and I question that you SH know her at all, or you are just someone (perhaps even a guy) who wants to promote your ideas and religious fanaticism on people who think otherwise. Her family DOES NOT have a disabled child. By claiming that they do you are either talking about someone else or just spreading rumors, not thinking that you might be discredited. Think again.
In either case, I have called your bluff. This is so typical of the narrow-minded it is unbelievable that otherwise you seem very intelligent. You yourself found her “passionate” “genuine” and “intriguing”, but only when she conformed to your views. When she chose her own path, she became “unworthy of that much credit” to defend or even decry her. Ach, so typical.
BTW, even if “in this case Malkie has very willingly made herself fodder for speculation, rumors and any other sick misinterpretations that people wish to project on her” , you were still ‘over’ on all those ‘avoiros’ of loshon horo and shfichas dam.
"Shameful, plebian past" is an odd turn of phrase, consider revising it.
Also, don't they have normal secular studies at Chabad girls' schools? I mean, we're not talking about Bais Ruchel here, so why is it surprising that you can right well? And yes, there are Bais Ruchel graduates who are also self educated and able to write quite eloquently.
some of thw world's greatest writers had little or no formal education. Some just can and some just can't.
A writer that comes from "no formal education" can be a great. But in the Ruchals and Rivkas (lehavdil, ok?) they not only do not teach how to write but most importantly they dull and kill creativity that is required for writing. If one overcomes this it is a gargantuan effort.
S.H., are you a BT, are your parents BTs? If you are a BT when did you join?
where are the talented faruq and 770 bochur?
Translation of the soviet poster:
On the left in the Capitalist Countries: The fate(way) of talents.
On the right in the Socialist Countries: Give way to talents.
TA- I don't know why you're so curious about me, but my parents became religious before I was born, chabad a little later.
Con Artist, if you're going to quote me so generously, please do so accurately.
First of all, you did not ‘call my bluff’ regarding Malkie’s family. If you read over the posts, you’ll notice that ‘a reader’ already clarified the issue and I made an apology, clearly saying that I have no first hand knowledge said sibling so you have no reason to believe me the way I believed the people who gave me that false information years ago.
Second, you clearly misunderstood my motivation in getting into any discussion about Malkie. I very clearly said that I don’t see the need to demonize her in order to disagree with her actions. In fact, launching a character attack cripples any attempt at substantive disagreement, so you won’t seem me resorting to that (Berl called her cruel, not I). Despite all this, I refuse to give her credit for any changes in my community- we may be stunned at the amount of chutzpah she has, but nobody is reevaluating the system, so to speak, because of her. She is one individual story which made the headlines; I don’t give her credit for anything more. "First, let the record state that I am not here to portray Malkie as villain or threat to any of the establishment that everybody is so busy either defending or decrying. She is unworthy of that much credit.” If what she seeks is true liberation, I’d like to see her do something magnificent—I want to see a success story. Let her prove concretely that ‘out there’ is so much better than ‘in here’. Then she’d be someone to reckon with.
As to my personal opinion: “I personally find her to be a complex and fascinating person, one who I used to admire and learn from. She’s passionate, she’s genuine..,” Note the present tense. I still think those things. Would I write that if I didn’t think she had potential for greatness? It isn’t as black and white as you’d like to think- I don’t hate her. I have nothing personal against her or against any of my several friends and two family members who are no longer religious. But while I am still very close to my other friends (not in the ‘trying to be mekariv’ way), I cannot continue any sort of relationship with Malkie because she has made it very clear that she feels nothing but spite for us. I might be shaming my fellow chabadniks here, but I respect a person’s right to choose their own lifestyle. If we can’t provide something compelling enough to hold on to, then who are we to judge if someone chooses to let go. However, if they expect us to respect their privacy and choices, then we deserve the same in return. When Malkie founded Footsteps, she made a very public and very hostile statement against this community. She knew very well that there would be an unpleasant response.
I have a friend who is from a satmar family. She was married off at 17, had 3 children at 23 and was generally miserable about her situation. She claims her husband was a lazy good for nothing and never said two kind words to her. The rabbanim’s response to her request for a divorce was the usual ‘you have to be a better wife to him’ and ‘try harder, then come back in a year’. She did finally divorce him, left the satmar community, took off her shpitzel, then her shaitel entirely, got a menial job while attending night school, etc… (In case you’re wondering- she’s still religious, not just religious but very spiritual and an altogether wonderful person trying very hard to establish some sense of normalcy in her life.) She used to cry to me, “Why are my parents so cold to me… If I drive in to visit them so they can see their grandchildren, they make me park a block away so nobody knows their daughter drives…” To our modern sensibilities, this sounds like madness, but I always told her that she had no right to expect anything different. She rejected their way of life in a very blatant way- they have no obligation to welcome that and she has to acknowledge their pain. The same applies to Malkie, only the family in question here is the larger Chassidic community.
...
I am curious about you and about Malkie and about the world. We touch the fates of special people on this blog.
S.H., I think what troubles many of us who do not come from total ideological communities is the idea that those who choose to leave such communities are the ones charged with being "respectful" to the people still there. Does it ever work in reverse? What about the idea of showing respect for the person who made a different choice? Do they not have the same obligation to show respect. Further, in the example you cite, there is nothing in the Torah that says a woman cannot drive--it is merely a custom of certain communities. My sense is that making this young woman park a block away is more about protecting the family from the neighbors' gossip than anything "religious." Is that more important than making your child feel loved and welcomed?
The Talmud tells us that if one doesn't feel he can abide by the restrictions of the religion, he should move to a place where no one recognizes him.
Of course, there is no point in quoting Talmud to someone who doesn't recognize the authority of the Torah.
I picked up the book last night, read the first 20 or so pages and briefly skimmed Malkie's section.
1. The book is very well written and researched.
2. Malkie slept on her grandmother's couch. Doesn't sound like a rich woman to me.
3. The messianist issue was CENTRAL to her decision to leave Crown Heights.
4. Berel & S.H. clearly are misrepresenting who Malkie is, what her organization does, and the history of her family.
Start taking responsibility for the hurban that Crown Heights has created (NOTE: I did not write "the Rebbe has created"), and stop attacking those your community has (unintentionally) damaged.
A reader- did you read my post at all? I explicitly stated that the respect should go both way, as in--walk away respectfully and you'll get respect in return, turn around and spit us in the face and we might feel like returning the courtesy! I also made it clear that my friend was asked not to drive up to the house so that others would not see. Funny how you sensed exactly what I wrote.
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S.H.--I guess you and I have a difference of opinion with repsect to what constitutes "walking away respectfully." That Malkie has decided to try and help people who made the same choice she has made does not, in my view, amount to disrespect.
Yossi--
And isn't that great of the Talmud! People who question should go where they cannot be seen or heard.
Yossi writes:
"The Talmud tells us that if one doesn't feel he can abide by the restrictions of the religion, he should move to a place where no one recognizes him. "
No. That is incorrect. The Gemara says that if a talmud haham is overcome by the urge to sin, he should dress in black (a sign of mourning) and go to a community where no one recognizes him and sin there. He can then return to his place, repent and continue his studies.
It argues this to, a) allow the talmud haham to remain w/in the community with his reputatuion undamaged, and, b) to stop people from saying things like "the rabbi went to a prostitute -- why can't I?" It does not mean that someone like malkie must slink off into anonymity.
S.H. wrote: I respect a person’s right to choose their own lifestyle.
With all due respect, this is a formula statement (the kind one is expected to make in polite company) with not a shred of any meaning.
Do you mean to say that while you sincerely respect the right of any Jew to be mechalel shabos, you equally respect the right of the beis din hagoddol (when it is re-established once again) to stone said mechalel shabos (with proper eidim vehasrooh, naturally)?
STERN WARNING FOR IDIOTS: the preceding comment is tangential to this entire thread and has nothing AT ALL to do with any individual discussed here!
Relax Berl- the idiots aren't out to get you, unless you were talking about me, ahem... In this era of no beis-din, people make choices with very different consequences in mind. Your question therefore does not apply. I still stand by what I said. I may not agree with a person's choice to be michalel shabbos, I may be very disappointed (especially when it's somebody close), but I would not force them to change, through humiliation, intimidation, or the threat of being cut off from the family etc... Obviously I would not tell my children, "Go ahead, do what you like, I respect your choices", but if someone felt the need to stop being shomer shabbos, I would not shun them on that merit alone.
I have someone very close to me who, having grown up in the lubavitch yeshiva system all his life, has no connection whatsoever to yiddishkeit. What do I do when I see day after day that he doesn't bother putting on teffillin, is extremely lax about kashrus and shabbos, and could care less about the chagim and anything meaningful in our lifestyle? Do I throw him out of my house and say, "shame on you, how could you not see the truth THE WAY I DO?" Life doesn't work that way. He is still young so he can go either way. He can either decide that he's given the Jewish life a real shot and it's just not for him, or he might start to feel something and want to reconnect. I'm not in the position to push him along. I am here to be a friend, a confidant, a regular person who doesn't judge his every misstep, but lets him come to his decisions on his own terms so that they are truly a reflection of his desires and not some dogma that’s been shoved down his throat.
That said, I would like to share a story with everyone:
When I was about 12 years old, I had an English teacher who changed my life. She came in for a few hours every day to teach us writing, grammar and public speaking (this was 7th grade in a chassidish school so no actual English knowledge is required to get this teaching job). This woman was, I believe, a bubever chossid. Her husband drove her to and from school, he had payos down to his knees, he did not work because he learnt in kollel all day, she wore colorful scarves on top of a bangs-only shaitel, they spoke yiddish at home exclusively, she was married some 3 years and had two children... you get the idea.
She pulled me aside a few months into the school year and asked me if I'd like to baby-sit for her two nights a week for two hours. I was surprised but said yes. Which little girl doesn't want preferential treatment from a teacher? So it went… twice a week her husband picked me up from home. I sat in the back seat and never said a word to him. After I promised never to tell anyone in school what went on between us, she told me that while I babysat she attended a creative writing workshop in the local college. Wouldn't you believe! I would stay far later than necessary as she shared her exercises with me; we wrote a lot together, and read a lot together. As it turned out, she didn't have a TV hidden in her closet, as people love to speculate about Chassidim. No, my young Bobiver teacher who looked like a shtetel girl had a treasure trove of literature arranged beautifully on the closet wall behind her many houserobes.
I asked her what it was like to be bobev—if she ever felt like her spirit was suffocating, if she realized how out of touch with modernity her movement was. She asked me what it was like to be lubavitch—if I ever recognized how ridiculous we look with our bumper stickers and slogans (this was some 10 yrs ago), if I was realized how out of touch from mainstream Judaism we were. At the end of the night she always gave me the $10 for my 2 hour babysitting and a book that I would return the next week. In school, we never so much as exchanged an extra word. At the end of the year, she moved away and I completely lost touch with her. But if you want to know where my education began- it was from this Bais Ruchel d’bubov graduate.
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S.H.,
Even loving and accepting someone unconditionally - let alone not shunning them - has nothing to do with respecting the choices they make.
As in: "You are my brother/sister/son/daughter. I love you unconditionally and will always help you in any way I can. But I am not going to pretend that inside my heart I also 'respect your right to make the choices' that you have make lately and I will always hope & pray that your change your mind about these choices.”
Berl, don't be dim- I don't respect their choices per se, I respect their right to make a choice.
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I take it back. You are not dim. I posted to soon.
I can't say I agree with you. What I think you don't see in what I'm saying is that nobody actually says "To whom it may concern, I respect your right to choose..." It's an attitude towards the person who's made the disagreeable move.
Like I tell my many friends who think I'm insane for sticking to lubavitch after all the mess of the last 10 years... "You may not understand the issues at hand, you may think I would be much better off letting it all go and assimilating into normal (obviously they think only they're normal, but that's besides the point) Judaism. But do me a favor, and let me make that choice."
Anyway, I'd rather not argue on semantics. It's pretty clear that we disagree here. Cheers.
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GOT IT:
respect |ri’spekt|
noun(n)
describes a willingness to tolerate someone’s disagreeable actions and refrain from attempting to ‘force them to change through humiliation, intimidation, or the threat of being cut off from the family’.
S.H. Yes indeed, there are many women--and men--like the one you describe in Bobov and Satmar, etc. The shame of it is why she has to hide these books in HER CLOSET, or give them to you without a word, as if it wasn't happening. Perhaps there is some romance associated with that kind of secrecy, but it is also very sad.
Respect... I like to think of it as a transative verb rather than a noun. It gives it more oomph, you know? Well, that's about right. Sounds a little militant, I suppose, but I think you've got it.
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OK, I looked it up and have to admit that I am wrong on this one.
There is a dictionary definition of the word 'respect' that means simply 'avoid harming or interfering with'. And here I though it was just a common misuse. Hmm.
A reader-
There was no romance involved! She just could have gotten in trouble with the school for giving preference to one student (teachers aren't allowed to tutor their own students after hours- conflict of interest). My parents, her husband, everyone was in on it so don't start cooking up any hanky panky. The reason she kept it in her closet? I could only guess. Volumes of Dostoevsky, Joyce, Maughaum, Tolstoy, Bronte, etc... probably didn't fit in with her heimish decor :) Look, everybody's got something to hide from their parents. Chassidish girls hide books in the closet, other girls hide boyfriends. Take your pick, lol. Incidentally, have you read "The Romance Reader" by Pearl Abraham? There's the story of a girl who had both.
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S.H.--I was in no way implying "hanky panky" by my use of the term "romance."
It is precisely the fact that these books "don't fit in with heimish decor" that is what's sad. While of course most people have things they do not share with others, great literature is usually not among them. Since when are Jews and Judaism so weak that they both can't withstand any contact with the "outside" culture and instead have to sneak things like books?
Reader- I don't subscribe to the bubev philosophy so I neither hide my books, nor do I wear houserobes. But seriously, I think you know what I mean.
I personally think that MIND CONTROL = HUGE MISTAKE (just ask Gorbachev). But ultra-orthodoxy is, after all, a traditional and insular way of life so what else would that mean besides being traditional and insular, hence distancing any changes or new ideas... Chabad is pretty much the only group among very religious circles that has opened itself to any degree of modernity, and look where it's gotten us (yes, litvaks are almost as backward as satmers. Sure they shave their beards and watch baseball, but they still would stick out like a sore thumb in any non-Jewish circle).
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Where has it gotten you? If you are any indication, S.H., it seems things have gone in a positive direction--you read openly, go to school, etc. If this is really possible to do openly in Chabad, then to me this a good thing. Further, I don't believe that the ultra-Orthodox are actually maintaining tradition, as Judaism has BUILT INTO IT mechanisms for change (and I am speaking halachically here), which sugges that it is both possible and even desirable. What the UOs are doing is something else altogether, in my view.
My sense after reading the book is that most of the people described therein were motivated by anger rather than any thought out plan. Specifically, what the heck is "Dini" doing? Her husband seems very accomodating and understanding, but she is liable to hurt him deeply by her conduct nevertheless.
All education, secular or religious, indoctrinates students. All those obstensibly open minded politically correct college professors are as brainwashed as the most rigid members of Toldos Aron. They are brainwashed in different ways of thinking.
Learning Torah potentially gives a person greater powers of critical thinking than the regurgitation non-thinking methods of most secular schools.
Most of these secular Jewish writers who write these books exposing the deep dark secrets and skeletons in the closet of the frum world, are motivated by their own need to try to assuage their subconscious ambivalence and guilt over their own non-observance and their own confused Jewish identity. They attempt to resolve their own inner conflicts by showing the world that not everything in frum life is perfect and rosey. Their reacting to the inner voice from inside their pintele yid, that despite their conscious will, makes them feel drawn to Hashem and His Torah. As Shakespeare put it, "Methinks she doth protest too much!"
Simchas,
"all education indoctrinates students" is a ridiculous statement, as it assumes that education necessarily equals indoctrination. there is a big difference between being encouraged to think critically, ask questions and engage in dialogue and being told that there is only one right way to think about something.
I always have to howl with laughter when those who seek to speak the truth in the Jewish world (even when it's ugly) are accused of having guilt over their non-observance or a confused Jewish identity. I guess it is just beyond your comprehension that one does not have to be religious to be Jewishly identified, and that bringing things to light that others would rather bury does not make someone a self-hating Jew. indeed, that whole idea is frankly anti-semitic, as it denies the experiences of other Jews.
Anti-Semitic? Ridiculous! Equally ridiculous is your refusal to acknowledge that within all education systems there exists some indoctrination.
And who speaks the truth for the Jewish world? Malkie Schwartz? Her experiences and her opinions are not 'truth' but merely her subjective reality. For every Malkie Schwartz there are hundreds of content satisifed young women in Chabad the public never hears from. She is an anomolie, not the norm.
I get the feeling Malkie's motivation (and others like her) is not her quest for freedom and to help others with her same dilema, as much as it is venting her hostility against frum life. People with chips on their shoulders (justified or not) against the frum world should not be dependend upon to give a 'truthful' or realistic view of frum life.
By the way, A READER, you overreacted since I never called you a self hating Jew and never would. Did I hit a nerve, maybe?
I also never denied the experiences of other Jews. I know there are unhappy confused people within the religious world. What else is new? I was talking about the Jews who have a penchant to write books about these unhappy confused people in the frum world. I am trying to analyze and understand where this penchant comes from and it has been my observation that is usually comes NOT from a place of compassion for
their fellow suffering Jews, but from their impulse to shed Orthodoxy in an unfavorable light.
Why not also mention the scourge of assimilation and the ills of secularism and how it has ravaged thousands of Jews in today's world? Life , although not perfect, (until Moshiach comes) is really not so bad in the furm world when we make comparisons with the outside. But you would rather not deal with those 'truths', would you? It wouldn't help you sharpen that axe of yours.
reader, who are UOs?
on education you need to go to basics:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...ppier-
jews.html
But in the Ruchals and Rivkas (lehavdil, ok?) they not only do not teach how to write but most importantly they dull and kill creativity that is required for writing. If one overcomes this it is a gargantuan effort.
As a survivor of the Bais Rivka system, I have to disagree with you. And I am not, by any definition, a supporter of Bais Rivka. However, I know plenty of good writers that came out of Bais Rivka...And I know many more college graduates who have writing skills that pale in comparison to the average Bais Rivka girl. Writing is something you have to learn on your own, by reading and practice. Everyone knows you can't "teach" someone how to write. And while, at Bais Rivka, they don't necessarily help you "perfect" your writing skills, they don't "dull and kill creativity." Come-on, they're not evil, just incompetent.
I think UOs are ultra-orthodox(ers). It's hard to tell what 'a reader' is trying to say. I dare say that s/he hasn't anything original at all. All I see are responses to others people's comments.
A reader- I wonder if you could tell us why this issue is so important to you and why you've staked your place here as defender of the Malkie-cause. No disrespect, but I haven't found a single idea or topic initiated by you. You're primarily on the defense. Please enlighten us. I'm sure that I'm not the only curious reader of 'a reader'.
I get the feeling that some people here (TA - you among them) imagine BR as the skirted version of the Oholei Teiroh. It is nothing of the sort. I would say it provides a slightly better than average American secondary education. Maybe that's not saying much, but that's a whole 'nother matter.
A good BR student is well enough prepared to enter an American liberal arts college (and – gasp! – maybe even the best American liberal arts colleges).
SWFI: not expressing an opinion whether that’s good for the Jews.
thanks for the info.
A good BR student is well enough prepared to enter an American liberal arts college
Ummm...no. Not quite. Unless you're prepared to suffer for a semester or two...And again, I talk from experience. But it could be pulled off.
Berl, how much do you think this "openness" of BR is actually contributing to some girls wanting to experience more of the outside world?
thegk,
we would first have to take your at your word that you were a 'good student'.
Boruch, my SWFI, it turns out, was for you this time around.
what is swfi?
SWFI - first used here
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...0728440/
#114725
Oh, I wasn't a 'good student,' I was a 'great student' ;). In the "secular" studies at least. Although I did get suspended twice, but perhaps because I was too 'inquisitive,' but again, by the Hebrew department.
thegk - bs
Sorry...I didn't learn that one in Bais Rivka...
thegk,
How can one sit quietly and listen to that crap?! The only kind of 'inquisitiveness' girls in BR get suspended for is inquisitiveness into issues of Biology.
thegk, could you be more generous with the readers about your background. Can you tell us your story?
berl, I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to...But I certainly wasn't suspended for whatever you're talking about...But glad you understand the BR system better than me...
Boruch, my SWFI, it turns out, was for you this time around.
berl, crown heights | 11.01.05 - 7:50 pm | #
--------------
For me you need to give a SWIFA warning.
Actually I was just asking your opinion, not imputing anything to you. Seems we may be on the same wavelength after all ;)
TA: I don't really have much of a story. Grew up in CH. Went to Bais Rivka. Went to college. Spent the first year working really hard to make up for my inferior education. Am now in graduate school. And I shouldn't be procrastinating reading and responding to blog entries...
More BS about BR. Students in BR can get suspended for a variety of infractions, but 'inquisitiveness' in a simple meaning of the word is not one of them. Try selling this nonsense to someone else. Maybe you can even give an interview somewhere about how BR stifled you inquisitive mind.
In my experience, the only inquisitiveness that is punished is the kind that involves experimentation. If a girl presented a genuine inquiry, even in biology, she was treated to as good an answer as possible. But when the girl decided to put the question into practice (as in, what would happen if I did such and such), well, that would usually lead to suspension. GK, back me up here: you did more than just ask questions before you got put on the blacklist.
And Berl, back off a little. You're beating up on GK about her experience in a school which you know nothing about.
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'a school which you know nothing about' - a statement to a person you know nothing about. this while you did not disagree with anything I said here on the topic...
thegk you are the geek indeed.
berl, I'm not sure why I'm responding to your accusatory remarks. How on earth would I benefit from making such stuff up?? They never actually really gave me or my parents a good explanation for why they were suspending me. And when people who know me hear that I was suspended in high school, they are shocked. I was really resentful at the time, but I just think it's funny now.
And BR didn't stifle my inquisitive mind, if anything, BR provoked me to become more of an inquisitive thinker. And I'm not trying to sell anything...
You did more than just ask questions before you got put on the blacklist
Not really...I was perhaps a little disrespectful in asking questions and in standing up for myself...And I got sent out of class for talking to classmates while class was in "session." But nothing other than that...
i wish I could have graduated from BR!
I give up. No one reads words any more... Maybe ya’ll onto something with the quality of BR education, after all.
thegk,
I neither said nor implied that 'you made stuff' up. I merely asserted that your story was not true, BS even. That you may actually believe your own story it not at all relevant to me. I JUST DO NOT CARE.
P.S. Your last revision it getting more believable. Keep trying.
From today's Jerusalem Post:
At a speech delivered before thousands of his Belzer hassidim, the Belzer Rebbe called on those of his followers who were not studying properly or were not financially stable to learn a trade while attending a kollel.
A Belz hassid who asked to remain anonymous told The Jerusalem Post, that abject poverty in the haredi street was a driving force behind the new phenomenon of haredim going out to get jobs. "There is no bread to eat on the haredi street."
Asked if the situation was worsening in the wake of the budget cuts in recent years, the hassid emphatically concurred. "The average student," he added, "isn't willing to live in poverty anymore. It's getting harder for the haredi public to accept the claim that wealth distracts the mind from study."
the link:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Sat...icle%
2FShowFull
there no more "trades" in this world. This is Poland. To get ahead one must invest time in an institution where he or she can get a competitive skill. Is Belz ready for that?
Berl, I disagree with your style. In fact, I'm offended by it. Not once did thegk blame BR for anything other than what she considers an unfair suspension. That's her right. I also think it's fair to assume that you're a man and therefore never attended BR. It's pretty obvious that you don't know anything about thegk, having just called her a geek (huh?).
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i called her geek, not berl.
So much for posting what I thought to be an informative and defensive comment regarding BR girls writing skills...
Geek : a person often of an intellectual bent who is disapproved of.
Sadly, I'm not sure I can deny it...
Boruch der ayzel,
I see your point more than you know, and more every day...
S.H.
I deeply respect thegk's right to allege 'an unfair suspension' – that has been known to happen in BR. I do not, however, respect her right to make ludicrous pronouncements such as 'I was suspended from BR merely for being inquisitive'. This is not a matter of mere 'semantics', at least not to me.
A question: What is so wrong with anger, when it's justified?
S.H.-- I first came to this site because someone I know who also knows Malkie told me about the discussion that was going on here. I felt it was important to address some of the false statements that were being made about her. That was my primary aim, but, not surprisingly, I got drawn into the discussion, as it were.
Take it easy berl. If you would like, you have my permission to take this up with Mrs. Tachtel (I'm sure she remembers the situation), and see if you get a better explanation. Boy, this is taking me back years...
Btw, I put "inquistive" in quotes for a reason...I did question authority and was disrespectful I suppose.
Simchas--
You wrote: "Most of these secular Jewish writers who write these books exposing the deep dark secrets and skeletons in the closet of the frum world, are motivated by their own need to try to assuage their subconscious ambivalence and guilt over their own non-observance and their own confused Jewish identity."
May I ask who such people are exactly and what books they are writing?
"Their reacting to the inner voice from inside their pintele yid, that despite their conscious will, makes them feel drawn to Hashem and His Torah. As Shakespeare put it, "Methinks she doth protest too much!"
Thanks, Freud.
thegk,
You must admit that your story is worded in a much more plausible fashion now. I get very literal with words at times - but then that's what words are for. Aren't they?
Don't have to be Freud to have an opinion. My opinion's based on Chassidus which you would not accept so no point in sharing it with you. Suffice to say Jewish guilt and angst plays a large part in many of these writer's chosen topics.
in conclusion:
TA, this topic was definitely somewhat of a 'girl flick'. Bring back Schneur with lovable & arcane ‘reisen' history minutia, 'proper Lithuanian cadence', long-forgotten Rabbis, and boulders, more boulders please!
Berl, don't like the chick talk interrupting your frabrengen?
My 'story' hasn't changed...Being inquistive at Bais Rivka was equivalent being disrespectful.
An example that sticks out in my mind: when I asked for an explanation for why I was being suspended, I was told that I was being chuzpahdik, because I knew exactly why I was being suspended...
Anyway, I'm really not resentful. I could care less. High school is a thing of the past. I think BR high school needs to be completely revamped . But it's not in my power to do much about it...
No, you don't have to be Freud to have an opinion, but you seem to believe that you possess the ability to understand peoples' unconscious motivations without so much as talking to them.
Edited By Siteowner
SH,
Forgive me if I sound harsh, but you haven’t been so nice either so I’ll allow myself to play with your rules.
There is something wrong with your thinking. It is not your fault I assume, since you do come across as bright and perhaps enlightened. Nevertheless, you still fail miserably at ‘thinking’, thinking straight that is. I did though, direct my comment to you and not to the other brainless dimwit there - who did nothing better than name-calling - because you claimed to be giving out first handed information which when discredited will also discredit the other half-truths. I know the family personally, both the father R’ M and to some extent Malkie too and it bothered me immensely that it came down to this.
First of all, I did quote you accurately and verbatim. Do not give me the I-was-taken-out-of-context whine.
Who called your bluff, you want to get picky here? Well, I did call your bluff dear, though I wasn’t the first.
So you didn’t call her cruel, how nice. You portrayed her as an evil being, and that is what caused my eruption.
Nah, this exchange is pointless. Nobody will change someone else’s mind here. I’ll just express my feeling about this through venting on my blog, and that would be it. I’ll let you know when I have it. Tolerance was main reason why I left Satmar for Lubavitch, a move that I regret daily because it was only an illusion.
Meanwhile SH, you should call up Malkie and apologize. Apologize for spreading lies about her or hotzo’as shem ra. Apologize for the loshon horah you spread about her. apologize to for being over on shefichas dam which undoubtly happened when and if she read this exchange. The above eveiros are bein adom lachveiro and can only be forgiven by God if she will forgive you too.
If she accepts your call, send her regards from her former neighbor C. thanks
Gimme a break A Reader, everyone is an arm chair amateur psychologist these days. You must admit that as far as Malkie is concerned, doesn't she protest just a trifle too much? So she left the fold, but does she have to go on a public campaign about it? If she isn't looking for validation, if she isn't secure that she did the right thing, then why does she make such a big deal over her 'pain'?
It is sort of like coming out as gay. The ones who are really feeling insecure and guilty about it are in your face shoving it down your throat trying to prove they're normal and you're a homophobe if you dare to disagree with them, while the ones who accept themselves are a bit quieter about it. Malkie is guilt ridden.
typo correction
...if she is secure that she did the right thing...
Simches,
According to you, every Lubavitcher who puts a menorah on his car is guilt ridden. What stupidity!
Why does speaking out evidence of guilt?
Why IS speaking out evidence of guilt, that is. And I see Con Artistic and I are on the same wavelength. Public campaign=guilt. Absurd!
Big difference between promoting Yiddishkiet in public and Footsteps. If you can't see that the fomer is based on love and building something constructive while the latter is based on anger and tearing down something in the guise of 'helping' suffering Jews then you are morally challenged.
Natrually, what some call “love” others will call fanaticism and what some might see as “anger” others will view it as compassion.
Your morals might be a little skewed here.
Thought I disagree with your characterization of Footsteps, it is worth pointing out that many of the most important social movements have been founded on anger and rigtheous indignation.
BTW,
I vented my frustrations on my blog.
http://conartistic.blogspot.com/...s-
unchosen.html
typo correction:
Though I
righteous
Oh, so putting a menorah on top of a car is now 'fanaticism'? Now you have lost me entirely.
Please spare me this moral relativism. Malkie had every right to leave the fold, but to support and encourage others to do so is highly questionable from a moral perspective and hints to her deep vindictive resentment and anger and of wanting to get back at her fmaily/community/Rebbe for her pereceived vicitmization.
I have a feeling, thegk, that if asked to tell the story of your suspension, Bais Rivkah administration would have quite a different take. And I am certain beyond the shadow of a doubt that one of the powers that be could say precisely why you were suspended.
Wow! Con Artist- I’m flattered that I can ignite such passion. In any event, you’re absolutely wrong in saying that I portrayed Malkie as a cruel being. I did not say anything of the sort, and I highly doubt anyone that followed this blog would come to the same conclusion. http://www.haloscan.com/comments...0728440/
#114702
If you left satmar for lubavitch because you were looking for tolerance, I’m sorry for you. You would have had better luck leaving planet earth. What is this ‘tolerance’ that you seek ? What is this ‘tolerance’ that Malkie expects? Why don’t you try to own up to the consequences of your actions and deal with the backlash, instead of concerning yourself with the level of people’s tolerance?
And thanks for playing gd here, telling me how to be absolved. In fact I had called Malkie, I invited her to my wedding, etc… but she doesn’t want to have what to do with people in her past life. I understand—it’d uncomfortable for everyone involved.
...
Simcha, are you out of your mind? Don’t you know what we do? Does it begin or end by putting menorahs? What is wrong with you.
Though, as I have outlined in my post, Footsteps does NOT “encourage others” to leave. Unlike Lubavitch!
You can lie to people who have no idea, but how can you tell this to ME?
Where (SHOW ME) does it say that Malkie is encouraging others to leave the fold?
A READER said: many of the most important social movements have been founded on anger and rigtheous indignation.
Simchas answers: Yeah, like Communism, Nazism, Jihadism.
Simchas, don't you pay attention? Malkie does not encourage people to leave Judaism. She does not recruit, pass out pamphlets or do 'mivtzaim' for her cause. Her organization offers lightweight counseling for formerly frum kids who are afraid of doing things on their own in the big, bad world. The problem that people, at least I, have with her is that she has chosen to make herself a spokeswoman of the cause. If she's going to be the public voice of enlightened chassidic girls, she had better be accountable for what she says. But unfortunately she's taken the opportunity to grossly misrepresent us (I'm not afraid of the skeletons coming out; lubavitch doesn't apply much effort at hiding them at all).
Or the civil rights movement. Anger can be harnessed for good and bad.
SH,
Playing stupid now? You are sending me to a post, which came as a result of knocking some sense into you. How do you explain this? http://www.haloscan.com/comments...6433665/
#114168
No, there is tolerance out there, but not amongst any religion that I know of. (I have no idea what this Buddhism is all about)
I didn’t play God, I just confronted you on being so self-righteous while transgressing quite a few commandments. I advised you to call her to ask forgivness and you give me this hogwash of her not coming to your wedding. Gosh, I thought more of you.
I hardly think Malkie has made herself the spokeman for enlightened chassidish girls. How could she--she doesn't consider herself chassidish.
You guys, A READER and CON ARTIST, you insult my intelligence and think you are fooling people.
You cannot deny the clear reality that Footsteps makes leaving the fold easier, and by virtue of just that it encourages Jews to leave the fold.
Their own website proves this. They offer sympathy from a peer group of like minded people with the same dilema as themselves, counseling (deprogramming?),career assistance, aid and comfort to Jews who are confused and conflicted about being frum.
A Jew could come to them in a vulnerable moment, and Footsteps could very well push them over the line into secularism when they could have just as easily been kept in the fold if they had at that moment not gone to Footsteps but to a sympathetic frum person instead.
Footsteps true anti-frum stance cannot be obscured by their thin PR veil.
The only one who is insulting your intelligence is you.
Try reading your last comment and tell me where your logic has failed you, yet again
No, Malkie does not give out pmaphlets. So what? This still does not negate the fact that the mere existence of her organization encourages Jews to leave the fold.
A rule of non-profts: they cannot exist if they do not have victims whose needs they serve. Footsteps needs disgruntled rebellious frummies to keep open. This in itself means Footsteps will, even subtley, encourage Jews to become victims.
Simchas--Do you have any firsthand idea of how Footsteps functions, or the way it deals with its clients? Until you do, you have no ability to accurately judge what they are doing.
simchas writes:
"A Jew could come to them in a vulnerable moment, and Footsteps could very well push them over the line into secularism when they could have just as easily been kept in the fold if they had at that moment not gone to Footsteps but to a sympathetic frum person instead."
So? Set up your own "sympathetic frum" organization. (By the way, I tried to do this from Jerusalem 10 1/2 years ago through Chabad, but "senior level" shluchim denied the problem and would not allow such a mosad.)
Reader,
I wonder why you even bother. I would take an intelligent punch in the stomach (virtually…) over winning an argument with his likes any day.
This is becoming repetative. Their website says it all. Footsteps offers aid and comfort to the disgruntled, rebellious frummies of the world, defining them as weak victims in need of an "organization" and thereby giving legitimacy to their yetzer hora to shed the 'yoke of Heaven". That is all that is needed to make it clear that their very existence provides encouragement for Jews to chas v'shalom leave the fold. Enough said!
Religious people really seem to like rules.
"A rule of non-profts: they cannot exist if they do not have victims whose needs they serve. Footsteps needs disgruntled rebellious frummies to keep open. This in itself means Footsteps will, even subtley, encourage Jews to become victims."
Do you really think Malkie is getting rich on Footsteps? If so, you are beyond anyone's reach. I am sure that if you asked Malkie she would tell you she would love nothing more that for Footsteps not to have to exist.
Shmarya, the Aliyah Institute in Brooklyn Heights is such a mosod and is doing very well.
A READER WROTE; Religious people really seem to like rules.
A READER has just revealed themself as an anti-religious bigot.
I don't play stupid, ConA- It's too much effort.
Please show me how my first post makes Malkie out to be cruel or evil or anything else you've said. You’re the one playing dumb here- you think I’m paying her back for not returning my calls or attending my wedding? You’ve got to be kidding me. Don’t you realize—she doesn’t want my friendship, my calls, my apology. She’s made it abundantly clear that since I am a stick figure inside the box, and she’s through with the box.
The emotional little rant on your blog brings up a point that I feel vindicates me. You say you are not disturbed by the trashing that goes on regularly on blogs because most people are anonymous and therefore nobody gets hurt. Then you say that Malkie Schwartz is the only subject in The Unchosen who gave her full name. She obviously had the option of not using her name, but the girl has something to prove. I think you’re wasting time feeling offended for someone who’s asking for it.
…
I've been called many things, but never self-righteous. Amusing…
how does my comment that religious people like rules make me an anti-religious bigot? i believe that is a statement of fact. after all, is it not true that the lives of strictly religious people revolve around the observance of laws?
Bigots make sweeping generalizations about groups of people. You have no way of knowing that all religious people like rules or not, even if Torah observance has many of them.It would be akin to me saying secular Jews like decadence. Just because alot of decadence in secular life exists, does not make all secular Jews decadent.
"Religious people really seem to like rules"
It is a fact!
And I am religious.
You know what, forget about me. Translate this please:
וְעַתָּה יִשְׂרָאֵל, שְׁמַע אֶל-הַחֻקִּים וְאֶל-הַמִּשְׁפָּטִים, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְלַמֵּד אֶתְכֶם
רְאֵה לִמַּדְתִּי אֶתְכֶם, חֻקִּים וּמִשְׁפָּטִים
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַחֻקִּים וְאֶת-הַמִּשְׁפָּטִים, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי דֹּבֵר בְּאָזְנֵיכֶם הַיּוֹם; וּלְמַדְתֶּם אֹתָם, וּשְׁמַרְתֶּם לַעֲשֹׂתָם
וְזֹאת הַמִּצְוָה, הַחֻקִּים וְהַמִּשְׁפָּטִים
These are just from the first few chapters in devarim.
Get a life
That was not written by religious people but by Hashem. Maybe not all religious people love rules but G-d certainly does!
And you disagree with what he wrote? Or do you just not like what he wrote? Do you perhaps consider the rules to be a pain in the @$$?
Many secularists espouse tolerance while many of them can be as intolerant and fanatical about their secular ideologies as the religious zealots they point fingers at.
Communism and Nazism were secular ideologies. Look how intolerant they were! Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Castro, etc., collectively murdered over 100,000 innocents NOT in the name of a god but in the name of their goldess ideologies.
And universities are dominated by college professors who espouse politically correct liberal ideologies as if it were Torah from Sinai.
Frum people have not cornered the market on intolerance and many secularists are abiding by anything but a 'live and let live' philosophy.
How in Heaven's name is liking rules an insult????
Not an insult but a vast generalization bordering on bigotry. Is it insulting to say Jews are good business people or blacks are great musicians? Not per se but still bigoted remarks nevertheless.
SH,
Your first post portrays her just the way it does. It does not need my commentary or explanation. It talks for itself.
The next time you’re going to put words into my mouth I’ll puke it right back at you. You are giving me the story of how she didn’t want to come to your wedding as a reason for not asking her forgiveness. Does it make any sense to you? Fallible logic my dear friend, unless there is something wrong with me.
See, it is indeed self-righteous to be ‘over’ on so many sins while proclaiming others who transgress other sins as rebels. Badmouthing Malkie because she is not religious (which is essentially the only reason you did it), but not being so makpid on certain things yourself. How would you call that? Anyway, since when do you or me care what others think of you?
She used her name ‘cos she is not afraid of your likes, obviously. Explain please the contradiction of feeling no anger when the recipient of the attack is anonymous to when he or she is identifiable.
Of course frum people have not cornered the market on intolerance. (or bigotry, or fanatacism). But so what? Does that make their intolerance any better, or more laudable?
Only bigoted if two factors are present:
Intent of speaker and perception of recipient. Witness the constantly changing PC way to refer to an individual with brown or black skin. In the last 40 years we've gone from Negro to Black to Afro-American, to African American to Person of Color...it is endless. As soon as Black people's perception of said "name" was a negative one, most often based partially on actual bigotry and partially on perceived bigotry, they rallied for change. Oddly, the new name never made these folks any less black, and black is neither intrinsically bad or good. A very long-winded way of saying: Let 'em generalize and be bigots. This does not change the fact that frum people do tend to be rule followers, which is neither intrinsically positive or negative, and hence, nothing to get our e-feathers ruffled over.
Con Artist,
According to you this is exactly what I did: I badmouthed Malkie because she is not religious, I got my revenge because she didn't attend my wedding, I viciously attacked her because she has made her position and identity public... Uhuh... Try showing me that you've understood one iota of what I said and then maybe we can resume our pukefest.
...
It is futile to speak with Con Artistic because he is in his own little world. I read your post and never gleaned all that from it at all. In fact, I felt you had sympathy for Malkie and liked her too.
simchas,
Sympathy is a terrible, terrible word. I'd rather be despised than pitied. I wouldn't treat Malkie with such indifference. That is the worst insult.
...
Anon, being lenient about bigotry is not good for the Jews.
A READER, intolerance by frum people is not laudable. If I see a Jew committing an aveira I am not intolerant of the Jew himself, but must be intolerant of the aviera.
For example, I cannot tolerate homsexuality since it is a sin, but I must love the homosexual as Jewish person.
Why can't I love and tolerate the person, and hate and be intolerant of the action of that same person?
I do not hate Malkie but have rachmans on Malkie because I see her as being in the grips of her yetzer hora. She is enslaved by her yetzer hora while trying to convince herself and everyone else that she is free, when the opposite is in fact true. Malkie is utterly imprisoned.
I am not inotlerant of Malkie as person but of her sins. There is a big difference.
And if a person is too open minded they run the risk of having their brains fall out. Just look at the 'anything, goeseveryone is really good,there are no morals and no right or wrong' crowd. They would even call suicide bombing a legitimate religious expression that we must be tolerant of.
Use some common sense.
S.H., okay then 'empathy". Is that less insulting?
"And if a person is too open minded they run the risk of having their brains fall out."
Boy do I dislike that expression. Being open-minded does not equal being brainless, or without critical faculties. Yes, there are some moral relativists out there, though I have yet to hear anyone say that we must "tolerate" suicide bombing as legitimate religious expression. Where have you heard that?
A reader,
I know nothing about Malkie, and you seem to know her well, so please explain the following:
How does she help people by promoting her own story; is splashing her name all over the Times somehow beneficial to the cause, or is it just self-aggrandizement on her part?
There are some moral relativists out there, you say!?!!! Talk about an understatement.
A READER, you are overly analytical and you split hairs thereby avoiding any issues. You know how to duck but you are not good at throwing any balls back in return.
Why can't you just say what you think?
I hereby make a motion to introduce:
The MentalPUKE Aaward for comment #200 in a single thread.
The MentalDRAG Award for comment #300 in a single thread.
The MentalFOG Award for comment #400 in a single thread.
(there is much more where these came from, but these should suffice for the next few hours)
Time to go beddy bye.
"A READER, you are overly analytical and you split hairs thereby avoiding any issues. You know how to duck but you are not good at throwing any balls back in return."
In the best Talmudic tradition.
What do you mean I don't throw any balls back?
"How does she help people by promoting her own story; is splashing her name all over the Times somehow beneficial to the cause, or is it just self-aggrandizement on her part?"
Often people benefit from knowing they are not alone.
Berl,
Lovely suggestion. I should ask you the question that infuriates good writers the most, "Where do you get your ideas?"
But really, I am curious. How do regular bloggers (I don't know if you are one, I just joined here) have time for all this. What about work, school, play, whatever... Honestly, I just can't imagine it. I've been glued to my computer for the last 48 hours because of a huge project due tomorrow at noon, so I keep checking in, but what about the rest of you? Are you blogging by PDA? I'd love to know. Thanks.
...
Berl,
Lovely suggestion. I should ask you the question that infuriates good writers the most, "Where do you get your ideas?"
But really, I am curious. How do regular bloggers (I don't know if you are one, I just joined here) have time for all this. What about work, school, play, whatever... Honestly, I just can't imagine it. I've been glued to my computer for the last 48 hours because of a huge project due tomorrow at noon, so I keep checking in, but what about the rest of you? Are you blogging by PDA? I'd love to know. Thanks.
...
I've been glued to my computer for the last 48 hours because of a huge project due tomorrow at noon, so I keep checking in...
Sounds about right, plus I come here in 'binges', to borrow from the alcoholic vernacular. And no, I do not have a blog all my own.
A READER, you have failed to show me you possess critical thinking faculties. You fail to understand the Talmud may split hairs, but not like you do, as a way of avoiding issues, but as a method of coming to a conclusion. After all your posts I am not sure of what you think about this except that I glean from your tone your distaste for frumkite.
TA, urgent clarification needed: if there is ever to be an award name where the second word-element starts with the letter 'L', how is it to be handled?
1. MentaLUCK ?
or
2. MentalLUCK ?
(I am keenly aware of the pros and cons of each approach, but vote firmly for approach number 1)
Allrighty then, since it doesn't appear anyone has anything better to do (especially you berl) can somebody tell me how to put italics or bold into my posts, or at least how to quote other ppl's posts in italic or bold.
mucho gracias
H - T - M - L
Got it!
o-u-c-h
...
So that’s it SH, you think that you didn’t treat her badly because you would “rather be despised than pitied”. That puts everything in perspective.
Again you put words into my mouth. True to my promise, I puked. Now you owe me a meal. I admissibly understood little of what you said, but at least I asked you to explain yourself - numerous times. Instead of an answer, I got some according to me’s. Well well well.
Listen, this discussion seems, by now, endless and fruitless so I might as well end it here.
You still owe her an apology. I doubt that God will accept your reasons of not begging her mechilah. Please do your duties. In addition, if you feel that I have offended you I herby request your mechilah too.
To get italics put < i > at the beginning of what you want to italicize and < / i > at the end. I left the spaces so it will appear on the post but you will have to take them out.
We should go out for dinner sometime, on me ofcourse.
I will not belabor the point, it's getting tedious, but I think that I've made a very strong statement against what Malkie is doing without resorting to anything nasty. See my posts regarding respect.
Incidentally, I think Malkie would enjoy a good duke out with someone like me. You, on the other hand, can't see the issues past what may be found offensive to you or your equally vulnerable comrades in this (I think I said this before) fictitious cause—the illusive search for tolerance.
...
Oh, and thanks for the tutorial. I'm trying it out here, hope it works.
Yoily wears a long black rekel and sidelockes down to his neck.
Yoily's English writing and even language skills are appalling.
Yoily hasn't donned tefilen for two years now, and desecrates the Shabbos too.
Yoily has a shiksa girlfriend and doesn't give a damn about Hashem or Halacha.
Yoily is an alcoholic, cocaine addict, and dangerously depressed.
Yoily decides to check out "Footsteps" and try put his life back on track.
S H,
You accuse Malky of helping frum people leave their faith.
Wake up, the guys who contact Footsteps are long gone.
Why do you think Hashem cares less if the mechalal shabbos at least still wears a shtriemel?
Why does it hurt you more if the apikorus actually looks like one.
Is this about true Judaism, or the cultural fringes and outer trappings that you care so much about?
Yikes! I've become the antichrist, only you'll have to call me the antimalkie.
...
mentalclog award to all :lol:
I think the comments have to be clear and the logic concise. When I stop following the argument I have to draw the line there. You are rambling. You are worst than Shoshanna.
Sorry S H, you're not the antichrist. But you are full of BS.
TA wrote:
S.H. I think I am in love with you.
.
.
.
You are rambling. You are worst than Shoshanna.
Ach... kak zhalka.
ochen zhalko!
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