mentalblog.com comments:
Chabad has become the 1 000 pound gorilla in Russia, they are so powerful they don't even care what anybody thinks of their dirty tricks, they are happily in bed with Putin.
It's time that pressure is borne against their major benefactors Sauch as the Rohr family, though truth be told, it could be that their benevolence towards Lubavitch in Russia, has some very good business benefits.
Lubavitch has learned a lot from the Communists!
We like this blog for its' facts and its' opinions. Not opinions about facts. Let the chips fall.
As Tzemach said, this is very puzzling, I presume that people like Kantor and Friedman have much greater influence than even Lazar, and they havent been able to do anything. (unless there is a reason we dont know about that makes them not want to help) Nobody accused Lazar of being behind this story, and any help that lazar did or didnt give would be "B'chashoi" anyway, so:
A)why do we right away assume that Lazar did nothing?
B)with so many questions left unanswered about how and why this happened, Can Lazar afford to get involved even if he wants to?
(I find it interesting that goldschmidt is making so little noise about this. (relatively speaking)
I have been reading this blog for a while. Alot of interesting information. Nice job TA. I finally decided to comment.
Speaking of Goldschmidt and Lazar, I heard that in 1995 when Congress awarded a Congressional Medal to the Rebbe, Goldschmidt spoke in Russian and Lazar translated. Can anybody verify this?
I never herad of it but I fail to see how it would make a difference.
Goldshmidt is not Russian born - Im sure he speaks english...
He is Swiss, and they speak all of the languages over there.
And his wife is American, I believe.
And Berel Lazar has been VERY silent.
He translated for Shayevitch.
sorry boys, its clean up time in russia right now. berry lazar probably has little choice but to keep a low profile about it. http://www.iht.com/articles/2005...news/
russia.php
Sto, stop coming up with excuses for Lazar. He just hosted a gathering of European Rabbis in Moscow. ok.
hail to the russian government! all foreign born rabbis - out! swiss, italians, americans, israelis - out! russia for russians!
Omein, faruq! all the leaches out!
Very interesting article on this subject in this Friday's Haaretz newspaper. http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/
...SubContrassID=0
Sorry I cant provide translation at this time, too time comsuming.
From what Im told, the author of the above article, one Yossi Melman, generaly has pretty acurate information. Its definitely quality information on the subject of discussion.
יש ויכוח נוקב כמה יהודים מתגוררים ברוסיה. בנתיב ובמשרד החוץ מעריכים כי מספרם מגיע לכ-600 אלף. מחקר שנעשה לאחרונה במכון לחקר בעיות סוציואקונומיות במוסקווה הגיע למסקנה כי המספר הוא פחות מ-300 אלף. זו קהילה זקנה. גילה הממוצע 57. מסקנת המחקר היא שבעוד עשר שנים לערך תדעך הקהילה. חלק יהגרו לישראל או למערב, חלק ימותו, השאר יתבוללו לחלוטין ויחדלו לראות עצמם יהודים.
"הקול הברור היחיד שנותר הוא של פאו"ר", מסכם קיצ'בסקי. "אם יש ארגון שיכול לטעון שהוא מייצג את הקהילה זה הארגון של לזר. זה הנציג היחיד שהממשל מוכן להתייחס אליו. זה מאוד נחמד שגיידמק מנסה להקים חלופה. אבל הוא חסר ניסיון ואני לא מאמין שהוא יצליח. שמעתי שמועות שעוצמתו של לבייב נחלשת אבל עדיין לא ראיתי הוכחות לכך. בכל זאת, לפאו"ר יש שתי בעיות: במהותו זה ארגון דתי שלא מצליח לתקשר עם הרוב החילוני; והוא הפך לחלק בלתי נפרד ממסד פוטין. אין לו עצמאות וחופש פעולה. כתוצאה, לקהילה היהודית ברוסיה אין עצמאות. היא קשורה לממסד. אני מודאג מיום סגריר, כשיהיה צורך להגן על היהודים ולדאוג לביטחונם. מי יעשה זאת? לזר? סלוצקר? גיידמק? פרידמן? הרי כולם אוכלים מידו של הממשל. ואתה לא נושך את היד שמאכילה אותך". *
nice article most it (our readers) already know. But is says nothing about the subject - exile of Goldshmidt.
true. but it underscores my point.
lazar can say nothing.
sto,
It sounds to me that you think it to be axiomatic that - should he be in a position to help - Lazar must help Goldshmidt return. I, for one, don't think he should help (I will not restate the reasons - just read the old discussions on this subject on this blog).
As to the whole issue of Russia turning away from democracy - why would anyone give a **** about that G-d forsaken place? Because of the Jews there? The Jews can function just fine under a benevolent dictatorship, thank you very much. (Gasp!) Anyone remember the hero & liberator of Chile, General Augusto Pinochet? The Jews did great under him. As to the natives - I, for one, don’t think the Great Russian People are capable of governing themselves without a Strong Leader (mustache optional).
[ducking and covering my head from the flying stones]
berl, that is right. as long as economic freedoms are granted, the jews in russia (and i mean poeple who associate themselves with judaism to some degree, not the liberal intelligentsia) should be fine under the dictatorship. the only problem is that experience shows that russia is very different from, say, china. it is diffult to unleash economic freedom there without allowing civil and political liberties.
berl, nobody is talking about helping to get back we want to know who helped to get out. This is a story now and the feeling I had from Moscow is that regular people will be asking questions. So someone will have to come up with some kind of an answer and that includes Lazar. This is no California around there. They have free press.
berl
i am commenting regarding lazars position right now. it is my opinion that he's stuck.
my point was that wether or not he wants goldshmid in, there would be very little he can do about it. therefore, critisism is undeserved.
most of ohr avners abuse these days is directed mainly at their own.
as far as democracy and russians go, its just not for them. this is true. theyd prefer a glorious czar.
should lazar help? not sure about this one, but the initial reaction of his office saying that they are ready to extend help IF they are asked to do so is reasonable. why should they get involved without a request? especially in russia where as great Winston Churchill put it "politics are like watching dogs fight under the carpet."
sto , i know some other nation that prefers a a glorious czar.
this "help if asked" is Gorin's standard formula, he kept saying this about Karpov. Means nothing.
TA, very unfair, russians would settle for any czar. עם אחד needs a Glorious Czar !
"Means nothing", here are wrong. in karpov's case it meant everything. karpov's request for would have aknowledged their supremacy and eventually lead to undisputed ownership of karpov's temple.
sto, "it's just not for them." it is not for us either. ask the Alter Rebbe.
i don't think the Rebbe Melech HaMoshiyach held by that shitA.
do you mean to say that the Rebbe embraced democracy? very interesting.
did you read about pudding:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...in-
pudding.html
i must confess that i have difficulty following Simon.
what i meant by Alter Rebbe reference was the choice of physical misery including limited rights to make livilihood, murderous poverty as a result, pogroms etc. versus spiritual misery with french liberalism, full stomachs, safer and longer lives.
Let me ask you if Napolen invaded Stalin's russia. Would Alter Rebbe asume the same stance?
whould he?
no he would not. I have another important question the spin that Alter Rebbe held this position because he didn’t like liberal freedoms might be a fabrication. We don't know why he did that. May be he was betting on the winner for political reason and because most of his people lived in Russia? What is the source of this?
let us say that Stalin's regime is not detrimental to the jewish continuation, all other major aspects of the regime being unchanged, would the Alter Rebbe then assume the same position?
i am not going to honor this nonsense.
i do not care why he did it. for me it is much more relevant the importance and explanation of this story attached to it by the Previous Rebbe and others. i will check the source. but i am pretty sure that it is mekubal.
TA, you do know why we find dinosaur fossils in the earth, don't you? hint: this is one of the Rebbe MHM's shitas.
I agree with TA on the Alter Rebbe's stance vis-à-vis Napoleon. It does not provide a לימוד of any sort regarding what his attitude might have been toward a benevolent democracy like the United States. Napoleon's intentions regarding the Jews were not simply to grant them freedoms; there were many indications he actively sought to assimilate them (and in such a case one has to prefer a life of misery under an evil regime that will, at least, not attempt to woo the Jews away from Teiroh).
While it is true that emancipation - whether it originates with well-meaning people (like America’s founding fathers) or malicious ones (like Napoleon) - is always a נסיון , it is most definitely not true that one would see Bonaparte & John Adams in the same light!
And faruq, the very same Previous Rebbe that talked about the Alter Rebbe’s opposition to Napoleon also extolled the virtues of the American democracy.
"extolled the virtues of the American democracy." berl, how did he do it? the Rebbe used to refer to the chesed aspect of the country. did he also extoll the democracy?
Previous Rebbe, not The Rebbe. I do not have the source in front of me at the moment, though.
i know, and i meant both.
Faruq,
The carpet is beginning to lift
i believe this was regarding the words "under g-d" in the pledge of alegiance. if im not mistaken, the rebbe argued to continue saying it because america is governed "by the people for the people".
it seems that there is a primary source to the Alter Rebbe's position. A letter in Igrois Koidesh. needs further review though. berl, do you have AR's Igros under you hand? also, sichos in english has the following:
"The Alter Rebbe, however, supported Czar Alexander I, explaining that Napoleon's victory would no doubt improve the Jews' economic and social standing, but would detract from their spiritual commitment and practice. A Russian victory, by contrast, would perpetuate the difficult economic conditions under which the Jews lived, but would also nurture the fruitful spiritual climate of yiras shamayim ... which then prevailed."
should be easy to check the original.
faruq, why not continue your quote:
"Why was the Alter Rebbe so opposed to Napoleon? At the core of the French Revolution lay a disregard for higher authority, a disregard which can spur undue self-concern. Such an attitude in turn leads to the pursuit of material pleasure and sensual gratification." [24 Teves, 5752]
Can the same statement be made about the American Revolution? A resounding NO! American founding fathers were Deists!
A note:
'Sichos in English' is neither.
berl, what?
berl, american founding fathers, man d’char sh’majhu? what is important here is that “Napoleon's victory would no doubt improve the Jews' economic and social standing…” and …”Russian victory, by contrast, would perpetuate the difficult economic conditions under which the Jews lived, but would also nurture the fruitful spiritual climate of yiras shamayim ..’
are you are saying that this position was purely ideological? “Why was the Alter Rebbe so opposed to Napoleon? At the core of the French Revolution ...” this is making it even more depressing.
'Sichos in English' is neither Sichos nor English.
I am writing a post about this, stay tuned.
faruq,
It was about the G-dless nature of the French Revolution and the very specific designs of Napoleon to assimilate the Jews. It was NOT about preventing Jews from improving their living conditions, stop being so recalcitrant.
The 'founding fathers' bit was in response to your assertion that the position of the Rebbeim was across the board against democracy.
berl, i never asserted that.
also, "very specific designs of Napoleon to assimilate"? can give me the specifics right now? as to " It was NOT about preventing Jews.." - pure demagoguery.
faruq,
Demagoguery? You actually think it makes sense that a man, that gave away his dowry to enable a group of Jews to make a living, wanted Jews to remain downtrodden and oppressed? What are you smokin'? It was a specific choice in a specific situation.
Regarding Napoleon – read up about his compulsory 'sanhedrin' in Paris, for starters:
Here is one bit from that saga:
"In July 1806 the Emperor Napoleon I called a meeting of 111 rabbis and Jewish laymen to Paris. They assembled in the Hôtel deVille in order to answer some questions for which the emperor wanted answers.
These questions were:
1. Are Jews polygamous?
2. Do they allow the marriage of Jews to Christians?
3. Do the rabbis claim the right to grant divorces independent of the civil authorities?
4. Do the Jews consider usury lawful?
The Jews answered that: Judaism prohibits polygamy; that marriage to Christians is permitted; that divorce must be approved by civil authorities and that usury is not allowed in Jewish law. These answers were given because they were what Napoleon wanted to hear."
berl, 1.where did i say that the AR "wanted Jews to remain downtrodden and oppressed." i was talking about preferences. 2. the story above is a joke if you want to use it as "specifics" about the quest to assimilate.
please stop it. i am disappointed and depressed. thank you for recalcitrant though. i looked it up. nice word.
the story above is a joke
whateva
ATTENTION! true berl, someone has hijacked your alias (berl, crown heights) and is using it to annoy me!
lol
TA, you are saying that the AR may have done that for political reasons. well, i prefer to think that the Rebbeim's actions were in line with their words. otherwise, political reasons is a nice explanation. it could have been this simple: if Napoleon wins and the jews were opposing him, the benevolent emperor will not take revenge and will try to reconcile with the jews. if alexander wins and the jews were supporitng the french, well you know....
so, strictly in theory, the may be the AR did not want to take this grave risk.
faruq, not if Alexander wins the reaction would have been immediate.
More interesting question is why AR had to take a position. What, CNN asked him (on the subject of BL)? It seems he was trying to make a point even though nobody asked him, as far as we know at least.
note, he has been already accused of high treason before the was of 1812.
also according to the tradition, there was a big debate about it. rabbis split. the AR had to discuss and try to dissuade his fellow Magid's talmidim who went out in support of napoleon. it could have been that he aslo had to explain his position to laymen, who otherwise naturally would have supported napoleon.
ad kan t'hum shabos.
ok, here it is. igrois koidesh Alter Rebbe letter #סד, page קנ but most importantly hooros page תנד
faruq, I read the letter and the notes. Al it says is that Jews would be spiritually better off under Alexander despite 'the state of poverty' they would surely endure under his rule. No generalizations here. No theological reasons given.
If you want to extrapolate anything at all from the Alter Rebbe's shito, it makes more sense to say that he would be comfortable with a society that gave Jews economic freedoms but did not the revere secular learning. Besignon acher, it easy to imagine that a society, where 'a car salesman is more respected than a college professor' (to borrows TA's terminology), would not be seen by the Alter Rebbe as a spiritual foe (like Bonaparte’s France was).
P.S. Moreover, the Alter Rebbe says in the beginning of the letter that he was 'shown' this [from Above]. In other words - the anti-Bonaparte position was not self-evident from a purely theological stand point and it had to be 'shown' to him...
berl, where is the letter, can you scan it?
faruq gave the reference here:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...3484818/
#121670
[ תקע"ג ? ]
כך למדו רבותינו ז"ל, אורחה דארעא למישבק משכא וגולפא למארי' דאושפיזא .
אהובי ידידי משה, חי ד' וחי נפשי כך הראוני לי במוסף ביום א' דר"ה באם שינצח ב"פ יורם קרן ישראל, ויורבה העושר בישראל אבל יתפרדו ויתנתקו לבן של ישראל מאביהם שבשמים, ובאם שינצח א' יושפל קרן ישראל ויורבה העוני בישראל, אבל יתענגו ויתקשרו ויתחברו לבן של ישראל לאביהם שבשמים, וזה לכם לאות שבקרב הימים יוטל [ יוקח ] מחמד עיניכם ויתחילו ליקח אנח"י מאחב"י, והוי זכור במה שנתפרדנו איש מעל רעיהו בפעטערבורג בביאור על פסוק שרים רדפוני חנם ומדברך פחד לבי.
שניאור זלמן
what was said there about רדפוני חנם ומדברך פחד לבי.
what is אנח"י
אנח"י - אנשי חיל
i thought so but i couldn't belive my eyes. this was before cantonists and the loss of solgiers would have been regardless of how AR sided. Confused.
or AR is talking about the future when Alexander wins?
שרים רדפוני חנם ומדברך פחד לבי - it’s a reference to their private conversation, based on this verse in Tehilim. the content of that conversation is difficult to ascertained from this letter (I can't do it).
yes - this part of the letter is generally viewed as the Alter Rebbe's prediction of
1. his own imminent demise
2. the gezeira of cantonist'n
WOW!!!
Here is how I would translate this part of the letter:
"...and this shall be for you a sign: in the near future, one who is precious in you eyes shall be removed [taken]; and they shall commence taking soldiers from among our Jewish brethren..."
interesting, (sorry to interject with something tangentiial) i think that the AR made reference of that possuk (שרים רדפוני חינם ומדברך פחד ליבי) in reference to the imprisoment (19 kislev) i believe the Rebbe spoke about this possuk i believe in 19 Kislev 5735.
Dispel, but how can we know the content of a private conversation that took place in Petersburg between R' Moshe and The Alter Rebbe and was based on that posuk?
Berl,
i concur with you about how can we know for sure what was the conversation; but interesting that the possuk was like "choruss" (engraved) by the AR in these two occasions.
To return to the original subject nothing I learned today tells me conclusively that Russia can’t handle democracy.
1.Perhaps now that most Jews left or are no longer in danger of Napoleons enlightenment?
2.If not continental style democracy perhaps American style?
LOL, the original subject is lav davka - it was only my boich svoroh than stemmed from my slavophobia.
More serious was the notion (implied in faruq’s comments) that we can project from the Alter Rebbe's anti-Bonaparte position some kind of far-reaching conclusion regarding his view on the democratic form of government. Everything I learned today strengthened my original hunch that one can't draw any such conclusions.
this is an important distinction because the world thinks that AR was against democracy stam. Not true, or lav davka perhaps.
P.S. I still can't get over the letter. Scary! Awsome! I am not sure what to say.
OK it's not over. 10 page (!) letter from the Mittele Rebbe detailing the reasons behind the Alter Rebbe's opposition to Napoleon. (same volume - p. רלז )
i believe that the 10 page letter is a narrative of the actual escape in 1812 rather than details of the reasons behind the opposition to napoleon.
note: there are some contradictions between the two letters.
faruq, it has both in abundance.
in other words, democracy, shmemocracy, whatever works. be it hunger and abundant death in 18th century russia or malchus shel chesed in the 20th century usa. chasidishe chaloimos. shloft ruik, raboisai.
faruq, I didn't understand anything you have posted in the last few days.
whats' the MR update?
berl, du bist a krumer
TA, lav davka - exactly. it all depends on circumstances and the current environemnt. the goal is to preserve the tradition at any cost. democracy or not is irrelevant, as long as the derech isroel sovo is preserved.
Guys, you'll excuse me for the following comment but all this discussion is akin to peasants discussing what the tzar dines on. One is certain that he smears his potato peels with lard while another can't imagine the tzar supping borscht without a generous helping of curd. Foie gras and caviar to that.
The Alter Rebbe's position was indubitably the same as his ur ainikle the frierdiker Rebbe. Namely, which ever aspect of any particular socio-politico-economic system that was positive is what the Torah ascribes to. Whatever promotes the evolution of mankind towards haguela ha'amitis is the choice of a true nossi b'Yisroel. Is there any doubt that the ultimate and true order is based on an a single enlightened and benevolent monarchy ruling both the temporal and supernal realms.
Don't bother to respond I am sorry already.
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