mentalblog.com comments:
As is often the case, I suspect that the truth lies somehere between the two positions presented here. Certainly Yiddishkeit has its own vitality and inner exigencies, which have developed and produced astounding new "births" throughout our history. Yet it is undeniable that we have been intensely conditioned by our cultural surroundings. It is no accident that Hirschian German-Jewish religious ideology and culture are so 19th century German, or that Moroccan Jewish ideology and culture are so Moroccan, or the Karlin and Lubavitch Chassidic communities so "Russian," etc. There is a somehat cynical Yiddish saying: "Vie es christalt zich, yiddalt es zich..." which means (more or less) "As things go with the Christians, so they go with the Jews."
(Even more blatantly: compare the current Orthodox pop music with American pop music, and then compare our niggunim with the folk melodies of European or Middle Eastern surrounding cultures. The influences may go both ways at times -- but they are undeniable.)
However, I'm not sure what to say about Tzemach's remarks re. Chassidic groups and their specific ideologies, etc. Sounds like a gross oversimplification. I will try to comment on this when I have a little more spare time.
Alter Vitebsky,
Thank you for the very thoughtful, useful comment.
I see your point, and your examples are undeniable.
However, Tzemach Atlas was musing about the fundamental philosophical essence of the Chabad movement, and whether it would have been fundamentally different were it headquartered in Paris rather than Brooklyn. That seems to me to be a somewhat different case than the adoption of melodies from music in the surrounding communities.
I have read, by the way, that musicians in Hungary had to be able to play Jewish, Christian, and Gypsy musics in order to make a living, and that the same band might have been hired to play at simches for all three communities.
AV, you haven't been reading this blog for a long time now. FYI, we moved from Vitebsk to Paris now :lol:
I wrote about this here:
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...-
geography.html
Tzemach,
I followed the link to your geogrpahy post, above. Excellent! Very interesting.
But as for the idea of a monarchy . . . we refer to Hashem Yisborach as "Melech" or even "Malchei ha-Melachim" -- how did these ideas come about? Are we to believe the rational skeptics who say that these concepts were derived from experience with actual monarchs, knowing for example that the Persian Emperor styled himself Shah-han-Shah or King-of-Kings?
Or did these earthly kings evolve their kingship in imitation of a (Platonic?) ideal kingship of which they were, though innocent of revelation, dimly aware?
I find very interesting your notion that the Polisher Rebbeim modeled themselves after the Pontiff, whereas the Russischer Rebbeim, after the Tsar. And what of Hungary?
The Pontiff, as you know, derives that very title not from the archaic Christian church, but from the Roman State cult. The Pontifex Maximus or supreme Pontiff of Rome derived income from a tax on the bridges in the city, hence his title. (Allegorically, one might also say that he served as a bridge to the noumenon.) Hence we could discuss on what bases the Pontificate is modeled . . . and from what source those sources derive . . . and so on.
Hungary – is a tribe that came from Ural mountains. They and their cousins Fins maintained linguistic independence and guarded their language that doesn’t belong to any European group. They also picked an attitude from the Huns. Militaristic cultural independence and isolationism = Satmar, etc.
Lithuania - is a country that was culturally German. Protestant German spirit of interpreting G-ds ways and penchant for the intellectual discourse mixed with Russian passion = Misnagdim.
Tzemach --
Interesting comments on the Magyars and the Letts.
What of the Magyars allowing Jews to become part of their nobility in the XIXth century?
And how did the Letts acquire the Protestant spirit, when they were the last European people to convert to Christianity, becoming Catholics when their Grand Duke Jogaila (Jagiello) married Jadwiga and became King of Poland?
Curious, too, is it not, that "Satu-Mare" means "Saint Mary"?
Letts were run by German knights who set the tone. But again my knowledge about this is limited.
"Lithuania is a country that was culturally German."
I might be wrong here, but it is quite shocking to hear this; any sources?
I am far from an expert on Lithuania, but what period of history might you be referring to? From at least 14th century onward Lithuania was very much its own entity. It was also joined at the hip with Poland and some northern Slavic tribes. But where does Germany come into the picture here?
Germany has a lot to do with Latvia. But with Lithuania?
i am the host of astute blogger.
Gandalin
No doubt the essential character of Chabad's mystical philosophy would have remained internally consistent. However, what Tzemach suggests is that perhaps this intellectual-spiritual core of the derech would have developed more richly or remained more in focus on French soil, as opposed to what happened in America.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe zatzal seems to have been busy with what Chabad (based on the Zohar) calls ishapkha: transforming the prevailing societal energies of a given time and place to kedushah. So the "Now Generation" turned into the pop Chassidic mantra "We Want Moshiach NOW!" And the international climate of mass movenents gave rise to the Chabad "movement" (which probably would have taken place even if the Lubavitcher Rebbe had stayed in Paris).
However, the determining factor for Chabad goes beyond such parochialism. In the wake of the Holocaust and the mass assimilation of the Jewish people in modern societies everywhere, the Rebbe percieved the situation as a "burning building," which demanded an all-out rescue effort in which all else was relegated to the sidelines. The problem with this was that you can't fight fire with fire forever, but at some point must fight fire with water. Thus, certain sectors of Chabad seem to be shifting from "emergency mode" in order to get back to basics.
Re. Tzemach's thumbnail sketch of Chassidic ideologies, I agree that they are all "absolutisms" of one sort of another, given that the Rebbes are kings (albeit in Chabad's case, "philosopher-kings"). However, the diversity of subcultures and the spin that each puts on the ball deserves better than the familar Atlas caricature. THere are still profound and diverse spiritual riches in the Chassidic world, and although the embers may have cooled off, they have not burned out.
Alter, Thanks for your insights. The Chassidische court does seem to have a monarchical quality. In the time of the Sanhedrin, as we learn from many accounts in Gemara, there was at least at the highest levels of Jewish decision-making much more democracy, and the Sanhedrin was not afraid to contradict a Bas Kol.
You do however somewhat mix your metaphors, in that the "burning building" and the CEO or other cultural approaches don't necessarily jibe.
On the other hand, I agree that the cultural milieu of the 1960s was probably important. It was in the context of the Six Day War, I think, that the first Mitzvah Tanks were loosed, and the black power movement in the United States was a model for increasing ethnic identification for many other subcultures.
Berl, Thanks for your thoughts about Lithuania. Jogaila's cousin Vytautas commanded the joint army of Letts and Poles that definitively routed the Teutonic Knights at Gruenwald in 1410.
re chabad staying in paris
i recall reading somewhere a vort (from a chossid) that a chabad rebbe will one day need to come to america to spread chassidus in the chatzi kadur hatachtoin.
as far as jews adopting the mentality etc. of host countries and it having an influence on jewish culture, this, essentialy was the argument of polish/ukrainian chassidim, that because the founding of chassidism was in "klein poilin" (ukraine), this would indicate that its real home is poland.
if im not mistaken, the rebbe himself said that the cultivation of chassidus chabad had to be specificaly in white russia.
Just a footnote to the comment above about the shem to'ar of "Melech" for the Creator: we find this in the Chumash ("u-teru'as Melech bo"), all over Tehillim, Yirmiyahu, Yeshaya, and the rest of TaNaKh. For those of us who do not accept the "Bible Critics," these sources are definitive, and affirm malchus an intrinsic attribute of Hashem, not something borrowed from human regencies. Additionally, the Gemara designates malchus as part of the formula of blessings and the daily prayers in Berachos and Ta'anis, ve-khulu. So this issue really goes to the roots of Judaism.
Yet "the Torah speaks in the language of man" -- therefore, we see that all divine attributes correspond to human traits. I would say more, but gotta go!
Alter Vitebsky,
Thank you for your straightforward comments.
I think some people here are confusing Lita (Lithuania) with Lettland (Latvia).
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