mentalblog.com comments:
Many of their 'rabbis' are actually American.Majesky,Hershel Grinberg,Kalmanson,Shvei etc.Let's not blame Israelis only
Well, I know its not politicaly correct, but maybe its because there are more Israeli Sphardi BTs then Americans like that.
thaaaan!!!
I feel that there are three factors here.
#1 There is a stronger tendency to extreme party alliance in Israel, due in part to the cultural and social similarity between the israelis, leading them to polarize more exremely. Along similar lines, the religious factions in israel are far more condescending and judgmental of each other than here. The social tension between the maskilim and chareidim, between chasidim misnagdim and others lives strong without the neutralization of the unconditional love introduced by the Baal Shem Tov. Maybe if the Besh"t had made it to israel there would be no extremist moshichistim...
#2 Contrary to einikel's belief these youths are more likely influenced by russian propagandist methods that made it into the kibbutzim of our ashkenazi brothers. (Most of the tzfatim are ashkenazim)
#3Israelis under constant threat of anihilation associate their party alliance with survival.
Their "American Rabbis" don't lead them in their extremist shtick, it was not an american who thought up the idea of the shvil or the flag. They are idealists who are disconnected from reality and because they don't oppose them, they become puppets and mascots for the extremists.
They are more likely saying "who am I to tell them to stop when the rebbe says kach vkach" The youths then take the ball and run with it.
If one of these rabbis would oppose them or try to curb them they would lose their status among the youth.
Go ask them. The only way to understand is to go live with Chabad in Israel (not with American's, with the Israeli's).
I did, I understand. There's a difference to actually living with emunah every day, every single day.
Almost every Beit Chabad in Israel, every Chabad yeshiva, every school, is mishichist. There they differenciate between those who are just mishichist and those who go "overboard" adding yechi to the shemona esrai and sh'ma (those are the 'nut' cases).
Every general has its exceptions. But generally Israelis are more emotional and put more emphasis in betachon and emunah. Americans are more sechel and put more emphasis in rationalization.
When it comes to yechi and moshiach it takes a lot of bitachon and connecting dots that may be super-rational. The Rebbe never said anywhere to say Yechi, but if you coonect dots than you can make up your own pulpulim to rationalize anything.
The question is when is mishachistim going to be its own branch of Chassidus.
The question rather is:When is 'meshichisem' going to become it's own religion.It ain't chasidus and it ain't Judaism.
Lubavitch has to decide, are you with us, rational orthodoxy, or with the Meshichisten
mendelbomb
Who is "leading"? And who is "following"?
It's because they aren't followers of Chabad philosophy. Chabad is hard and cerebral, and demands that the student develop his emotional religiosity into one which is more intellectual. Meshichism is the opposite. Meshichists are supposed to elevate mindless faith above reason.
Followers of Chabad elevate their thought, speech, and action through contemplation. Meshichists have a much simpler logic. If Hashem is ultimately incomprehensible then rationality is a barrier between us and Hashem, and irrational behavior is to be embraced. This is why they dance around the altars of their own personality while declaring "zeh keli v'anvehu".
"Almost every Beit Chabad in Israel, every Chabad yeshiva, every school, is mishichist." Is there any consensus about the percentage mishichist mosdodos in chutz l'aretz?
Joe, it's a good point, but somewhat wrong. See this, from the Mittler Rebbe (2nd Rebbe of Chabad).
However, I specifically asked this question of my Rav in Israel, if chassidus is intellectual and pnimiut, aren't those shouting Yechi and waving flags doing the opposite? His answer was yes, that's not chassidus, but that doesn't mean that a mishichist position doesn't have a potential solid chassidic foundation.
Pmh - yes, and no. Yes, almost every one really is, except for the American ones. However, they divide between mishichist that probably qualifies as kosher and mishichist that is absolutely overboard far into very problematic territory.
Example, almost every shul is saying Yechi, but the Israeli definition of a mishichist shul is one that has pictures of the Rebbe in front and is saying Yechi as part of (every) Kaddish.
RebelJew,
Clearly, (at least in New York) the older bachurim are leading, and creating a kind of culture and a crowd mentality that creates a status quo in 770. Those distinguished elders or naive ballebatim that dont oppose or who sympathise with their emuna, idealism and devotion to the Rebbe are de facto followers who can be misconceived as leaders. I think (I'm too young to know) a similar phenomenon took place with the hippie culture in the '60s, it was noone leading everyone with professors saying ideas and kids taking the ball and running with it.
Y.Y I think meshicism is still Judaism, most are a little misguided, but what they are doing is creating new minhagim not new mitvos.
I'm sure there are extremists that will say if you don't make a shvil or don't wear a flag on your lapel then you are doing an aveira, (but they need to get their heads checked). We are speaking about normal mishacistim.
in my humble opinion there is no normal meshichistim or there wont be any left soon, this group is evolving so fast to a crze and out of control cult, that those who were meshichistim are running away so fast from them
Unfortunately they (M.) are the ideological majority of L today. They forced the Anti's to accept their ideologies (at least to say "U do not hold like them...but they have "sources" and "right" to think that way).
While they are not "meshuge" as their extremist parts (which is not a "miutey demiutey" but a "miutey deminkeroh"); they grant a green light to many/most of their beleifs.
While things that were debated right after 3 tammuz are today accepted matter of fact in the ideological arena, today we forge into new horzions, like for instance: we see today's Maariv having an article about "REbbe alive" is beleived by most L (just a matter of the way to publicize it). While i am not under any illusions that in reality most of L agree that the REbbe is alive begashmiyoos, yet they (the M) put this issue in the ideological arena in a way that most L will be forced to say: "they have sources...i don't beleive...he has a right to believe...emunoh pshutoh....".
These issues are not only "meshugeh" but are against Torah and Halacha which instructed us to conduct ourselves according to reality that Hashem created: as the REbbe Maharash spoke in many of his maamorim about the proof that the world is not an illusion: "Breshis Boroh Elokim...". They deny this and deny more and leads them more and more to the slippery slope.
The Alter Rebbe whose realease Chassidim celebrate today while instrusting us to put in a mindset of Eyn Oyd Milvadoy" was also the author of Shulchan Oruch and part of Chassidus Chabd and it's uniqueness to other chassidism's is: accepting the reality in the service of Hashem of woriking with one's own power ("bekoach atzmoy") and not delving in mofssim (despite that mofssim "hoben zich gevorfen unter dee tish") because the kavonoh elyonoh is work within assiyoh etc.
In any event: The generals and mashpiim of recent past (especially right before and after 3 tamuz) cannot say "yodeynooh loy shofchoh" on the corruption of religion and changing the course that Hashem delineated in the Torah (in addition to the bizoyon of our Rebbe).
They did not reject the tenets promulgated by the M; for *they* TAUGHT THEM! They did not offer an alternative way in Avodas Hashem, because: 1) they taught the ways of M before 3 Tammuz and are not honest to say with an "emess" "toissi", 2) when some one of them wants to offer something he talks a talk that was appropriate in Brunoi in 5707 or in Lud in the earlier 5710's but they really do not relate to the energy and chayoos generated by the Rebbe and how to relate to that ost 3 Tamuz 3) also: they want very much that there should be no "deserters" to other flavors of J and C so they accept the M (because that is good way to keep the new generation in L and not run away to any other group).
And they are not honest with themselves and others to accept that certain things the M do or say is against Torah; all they possibly say is: It's "meshugeh" or "it embarasses the Rebbe". The results are what we see.. and "you ain't seen nothing yet....".
Thanks Akiva. We seem to be witnessing the same forces at work in different parts of the world. From what I see, it's Israeli Chabad leads the meshichist camp.
Non-meshichist Chabad can co-exist with meshichists. But most other Jews find these justifications as strange, irrational, meshuge... if not worse.
As time passes, meshichism looks more like the cry of frustrated hishkashrus. Israelis feel the issue more because of terrorism, poverty and the crumbling of secular leadership. But it will need a miracle to get Klal Yisrael to accept it as authentic.
Dispel fantasies,
If you are an 'ish emmes' you should look to place the 'blame' at the feet of where a lot of Lubavitch's 'credit' has been placed.The 'M's did not make up their meshugassen they 'misunderstood" words, phrasings and sayings (or 'gor' understood).I don't have to repeat what I mean since the 'm's have printed all the 'quotes' (or misquotes,?)
Pmh - seems to me there's 2 time limit factors on the whole thing. One, the farther we stretch from gimmel Tammuz, the less solid most mishichist arguments hold (calculations and cycles having been passed beyond their limit), the second being that as some of the leadership (on both sides) ages into obscurity the strength of the argument (which generates a strong counter-argument) fades.
I think it settles down and fades to an undertone by default. We saw some of this in Eretz Yisroel when shortly after gimmel Tammuz the strong Israeli mishichists (differenciated from the weak ones that appear loud and strong by U.S. standards) ran off and set up parallel mishichist institutions, a mishichist Israeli shaliach convention, etc. It all lasted about 5-7 years and then just quietly faded away, with all but the most extreme reconnecting with the (for Israel) mainstream.
Akiva; Your analysis is reasonable. Rejoining the mainstream may difficult for members of a group that devoted themselves to excluding themselves from it. And their kids will probably face special challenges.
Pmh - I'd say yes and no. The real die hard extremists and leadership crew, absolutely yes. But then there's a dicotomy on the other side as well, call it corporate Chabad [which, seems to me, is the part that TA's so down on] (and it's some of that group which was the die hard anti-mishichist).
Personally, I don't credit that group with their position for any purity of motive, but rather from purity of position and power control. But then I'm rather cynical (unfortunately from some very practical experience).
The extreme mishichists may have fallen off the deep end, the extreme opposite is just wearing the clothes.
The emesdik'a chassidim, regardless of their side of the issue, will be just fine, and just fine together.
I think the reason that their main stronghold is in Israel is that they were always used to view the Rebbe as an abstraction, not as a person. Even those who have been here before 3 Tammuz, their relationship was less personal, and was mainly going on in their minds. It is easier to modify such a perception and extend new theories over it.
Moshel le'melech, where distant subjects, who may have never seen him, can feel more awe and attachment than his ministers.
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