mentalblog.com comments:
i do see your point, but i think it's more of a transitional space (like a baby blanket is a transitional object) than another "box."
i know that here in CH they have something called YAM - but that's focused on a younger group, but more importantly, acts as a wall; in which the applicants bounce back into traditional (or not so traditional) judaism. but i don't know if it's so highly acclaimed. i tend to look at it as some nebach group.
but i do think that there is a need for some program that would treat all people - universally - as people who aren't delinquents or droupouts, but as people who have different wants and needs (no, not those kinds of needs). the problem with this is, that it will encourage people who are perfectly frum to defect to that group, lest they want to defect. but if it's looked down upon, then defection is discouraged and unpopular. i do think that people should be setting different standards in who belongs in such groups, and how "bad" it is. but for the same price - why not fix "all" problems?
i don't think it really will encourage people to leave, mainly because it is such a huge step to take and most people don't want to change their lives that radically. i think it's more of a refuge for people who have already made the decision and feel they have no other choice. just as we shouldn't look at people who become BTs as "troubled" I guess so should we not look at people who "drop out."
we got a bunch of newbies here, missed the entire debate last month (see commenst there)
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/1...e-
schwartz.html
i do remember the discussion (i am not as new as you think). but i didn't comment then. let's start this from new, and quote necessary posts as they are needed
you need Berl for that.
I went through the yeshivah system.
65 percent of my class dropt out before 770.
The guys that stayed are the ones with guts, do you think it's easy to sit and learn torah all day?
A bunch of losers who could not control their shvenchselach left.(besides a few exceptions )but the average kid poshut had strong lusts and wanted to enjoy life not giving a dam about anything.
Ha Ha, do you think that leaving is hard Bullllll Shittttttt Today in chabad staying is hard!!! Its not easy do go through the system and it takes guts.
Malke please fined me a family in crown height’s that kicked there kid out just for yidishkit and not for drugs vechulu.
Even Malke is still welcome in her house even though she tries to influence her siblings.
Tzemach
I challenge you to make a survey of frayed out lubavichers and ask them what they think of this footsteps org.
Sorry
for the spelling and grammer
I went to O.T
65%? Really?
some stayed frum but 65% left yeshivah.
wow! anyone else can confrim this, hard to belive.
check out from U.L.Y 1996
how many of those kids made it through shlichus to 770
I knew that class.
more like 55% left.
The 65% sounds high, maybe there is a difference between U.l.y and oholei torah, where I'd be surprised at such a number.Whatever the case it seems that the non lubavitch yeshiva worlds' skepticism about outreach, when one puts ones own children in religous peril is well founded.Lubavitch is zealously looking to bring new recruits into the Rebbes fold while their own kids are leaving through the back door influenced by a lot of the non religous culture, drugs etc. that seeps in via the 'outreach'
Dovid
1996 55%? my brother was in that class I thought more but I will ask him .
But my year was 65% but i can't prove it becouse i am the only tzvi in my class.
Clarification
90% Today are frum but i am counting anybody who did not finish the system.
Could someone write about the current state of education in CH?
Tzvi--I imagine it's much, much harder to leave Skver or Satmar than Lubavitch. It sounds like many of Footsteps' clients are from those grups. But how do you know Malkie tries to influence her siblings?
Speaking as a teacher in the system I would say the problem is this: we do not present enough options for kids. Shlichus is the Lubavitch version of Kollel: if you don't do it, you're a failure. This is not realistic, nor is it in keeping with what is emes. Understanding and more importantly accepting that there are many ways to be a frum erlich yid (and Lubavitcher, if one wishes) is the way to keep our kids 'in'. We don't live in the same world as yesterday, we need to give our kids the right tools and weapons to defend themselves against the outside world -- and that means assessing those dangers and responding appropriately. There are too few models shown (especially to boys) of what a respected figure looks like. There are plenty of businessmen etc., in chassidus' history. Not everyone is going to be a rebbe or shliach, and making that the only truly acceptable choice is going to cause us to lose our future, chas v'shalom. Telling a bright kid who is not a learner "become a car mechanic" is not right, in my opinion.
In hashkafa classes I tell those who are struggling -- find your chelek in Torah! Some ask "how about non-frum Lubavitchers?" I always ask: if a chosid is someone who goes lifnim m'shuras hadin, how can someone not keep the din and still go lifnim? The fact that many teens believe in the idea that one can be Lubavitch and not frum means that we are doing something wrong somewhere.
It was never easy to remain frum, there have always been challenges. The heimishe life in the shtetl never existed in the fantasy-like image of 'everyone was frum...' Zechor yemos olam, binu shnos dor vador...
anonymous, i called you a teacher, there are no anonymous post here. thanks
anon - teacher,
wow! every word 100% on!
Every child or young person growing up has a goal. That’s what keeps them going. Like a collage student has an ambition to be a doctor for example, he will study in all his years in school to fulfill this goal. In lubavitch a great problem exists, that we forget how much the rebbe emphasized learning torah and did not only stress shlichus. If everything is only shlichus then why should a boy in yeshiva learn? A litvesher bochur has a goal to be a gadol or a rosh yeshiva etc. someday but these lubavitcher’s do not have this, so why should he learn? So he should know how to give a lecture when he is a rabbi at a chabad house?! That’s not enough encouragement.
The truth is that we have to learn torah (niglah & chasiduse) becouse "ki heim chayenue" and that how we connect ourselves with hashem, it’s the purpose of creation. The rebbe stressed all this immensely (just take a look at any sicha in lekutai sichos,) but there are those that pretend this is not so.
I speak of a large portion, not everyone of course.
The notion that drugs, non religious culture seeps in via the outreach is an exxageration of a grain of truth, perhaps if there was more outreach in ch people (both mashpiim and mekablim) would be digging deeper in their souls finding what the practical application of chassidus instead of the "laurel resting" and kugel throwing thats going on. Real trachten chassidus and farbrengen is the only true antidote for the cultural influences of the sitra achara. Flatbush is not doing outreach, still their Judaism is becoming diluted, because not only are the influences of olam mil'shon heelem ubiquitous in their own right, but they are allowed in via magazines & tv. They have no antidote for the influences bmakif, and this is meoirer the taava of nihye kchol hagoyim, ad sheol tachtis. The same dynamic is happening in ch, unless we use the antidote we will sink with the rest of them. Vos zol men ton az di linke zayt hot a koch in gashmiyus. M'est bossor bchol yom mamosh un mvil hobben a geshmak in a davvenen?
Tzvi - "U.L.Y 1996"
Are you referring to elementary or high school graduates?
mis-guided
Makie grow up in crown height's,not in skver or satmar.
She had high school education; she had a loving family, a grandmother who supported her financially.
She opened her org, to help fight that ongoing battle between the divine and animal souls to capture and dominate the body; I have one animal in my body its more then enough
She looks for kids who are going through a hard time, and tries to convince them that if they taste the outside world,life would be better.
Nothing less then evil.
TA, discussions here are getting increasingly repetitive, partly due to the fact that the archives are not very accessible. Providing links to archived discussions when you feel like it is not a very good fix.
How about introducing an easy-to-navigate topic index? Perhaps right under the "new comments"?
berl,
and what about this?
http://www.mentalblog.com/2005/0...s-and-
tags.html
remember?
also I think people just want to talk, not read archives. But I do have something in mind though. it will take time.
I do remember that post, but:
1. The concept of user-defined tags alone can't fully work here since the new readers would have to read all the archives and since Google search engine does not search the comments, only the posts.
2. What I am suggesting is not a mindless index, but rather a simple aid that aggregates only the most interesting discussions of the past and organizes them into categories / sub-categories (nothing more complex than that).
As to the conversation, that's all well and good, but the repetition is really boring.
TA, regarding the 65% dropout rate of the U.L.Y class of 96 before reaching 770.
35% of the class was either from Flatbush or Boro Park - not from Crown Heights and not necessarily from Lubavitch homes.
15% of the grade was married before 770.
It was a unique grade, as the years before and after both have higher percentage rates that made it through the system.
Berel (Sholom) Keller was part of this class for his last few years of school.
He was in OT until 7th grade then transferred over to ULY. I'm not sure if his father passed away when he was by us or before, but he was davening for the amud that year. There were over 100 kids that went through our class (grade).
Tzemach, what’s with the face?
I'm not sure how he ended up by us (big class), but I do remember the guys saying we should treat him nicely because he had been through a lot. I think he had a rough time in OT, the guys would tease and pick on him...
The strike was in 96/97.
His father passed away 96.
Tzvi, Malkie does not try and influence her siblings.
chanie schwartz?
her sis.
o oh, this is geting personel.
Hey Chanie, welcome to the party. I'm assuming you feel comfortable discussing the issue of your sister, as you did join a public forum with her as the topic.
I'm sure it's as you say and Malkie is not actively trying to influence you, or your siblings towards her new lifestyles. The fact of the matter is, her being around has to have negative repercussions regarding the Derech your parents are trying to set for their children. Nevertheless they still love her and welcome her to they're home. Is this true?
"o oh, this is geting personel."
true oholei torah spirit.
TA, as a moderator, why don't you challenge people who make statements like "malkie tries to influence her siblings." i would like to know where these people are gettin their information.
ULY-- so are you now saying that Malkie's very existence is a problem for her family?
The fact that my younger siblings have older siblings, each leading a different lifestyle is something i celebrate. I appreciate the fact that when they grow up and choose the derech that they choose, it will be a real choice of their own rather then that of only one influence, and no other choice.
i think chanie schwartz has hit on a very important point: we, as humans, are not passive beings, but active participants in creating our own lives.
ST, not at all. I'm saying that even with the threat of negative influence her parents still love and remain close to her. Scroll up to Tzvis original comment.
Chanie, without question it's admirable if your sibs can stay strong on the Torah Derech, it's hard enough with the challenges that the world gives us as it is, how much more so when it's in your own home.
My point though wasn't regarding your siblings, but the fact that Lubavitcher parents will not generally abandon their children for going off.
You can only expect so much from children. Especialy when it seems that they arent getting the proper chinuch anyways.I believe Malkie complained about not getting answers to her religous questions. As a parent I would be worried and try to minimize contact.
ULY--May I respectfully ask a question? Why is it better to hide people from questions, rather than to try to deal directly with those questions?
when someone gets afraid of a "bad influence" it is usually because he himself is lacking in it. וכל הפוסל במומו פוסל
it is better to hide younger children, though, because they won't understand the proper answers..
and see what i wrote here
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...3704608/
#129943
but what are the "proper" answers exactly? and i don't mean this in a glib way.
Mashpia brings out one point.
Another point, we tend to become desensitized when we are continuously faced with negativity that is not shunned or criticized. Even if Malkies sibs were teens and able to understand the answers that their parents would try and give, her being around would still have a negative impact. Nobody wants to think of a family member as doing wrong/evil, until it comes to the point where they not only tolerate that ones actions, but actually come to justify them.
are u saying that the only way ppl will stay frum is if they never see anyone they know, being non frum?
Of course not, all people will ultimately be exposed to the outer elements one way or another, if it's by family and at a young fragile age it makes it that much harder to stay frum.
BTW Chanie, have you stayed the religious course?
I am religious. And I think children can (and should) know that some people are, and some people aren't. And based on all of the childrens education and Jewish experiences, they will choose a path that is right for them
I think we're being repetitive. Reread the thread a few times, maybe you'll see my point.
Kol hakavod on your strength.
AND MAYBE ONE DAY YOU WILL SEE MINE
ULY, i think your'e missing the point, it's not her "strength" in facing the "challenge", but rather her commitment to religious judaism, and her love for it that keeps her going.
see my posts on the link above (scroll down).
man, it's late!
mashpia, thank u, at least someone here is writing for the discussion aspect rather then the 'spewing' aspect of this blog.
ULY - ok we get it, u think frum is important, but do u have any OTHER important values? can u understand if FAMILY is an important value as well?
Doesn't Lubavitch teach respect for and tolerance of all Jews, no matter what their level of observance? I think it is a testament to the Schwartz family that they are able to live this ideal within their own family. If the rest of the Jewish world could follow their lead, our community would be much stronger and healthier.
Regarding what Chanie Schwartz said about family also being important, not just frumkeit - it seems to me that love and tolerance for family ( and for all of Hashem's creations), is not separate from frumkeit, but a major part of it.
If in a family one of the children goes off the path, rejecting that child gives the other children
A. a message that their parents love is dependant on their being observant Jews, while chassidus teaches about unconditional love for all Jews.
B. the message that there is something so powerful out there, that if they will be exposed to it, they will drop everything. To me that might become a self-fulfilling prophecy chas veshalom.
Of course parents don't need to go on a search for negative influences to overcome, but overprotective parents who shield their child from every germ end up having vulnerable children. If by divine providence those children have a sibling who made those choices, the parents have to trust that they have the strength to grow from the situation.
what would the world be like if every jew lived a chassidish life? jews have contributed enormously to society in the areas of science, medicine, literature, philosophy, social justice, and even the performing arts--things that are off-limits to most chassidim (not as true of Chabad, for sure).
what is "social justice"?
Chanie Schwartz:Related to Malkie?
Chanie Schwartz.
I really don’t want to get personnel about your family because that’s not my Business, but Malkie’s life is not private anymore.
Is it not true that malkie was strongly influenced by her grandmother to leave yidishkiet?
Is not true that your extended family would like to see the rest of your family frie?
Oh but holy malkie, she’s just trying to save the whole world but her own family let them sink.
Dovid--That is some chutzpah making assumptions about Malkie's grandmother's motives and her family dynamics. Do you have ANY firsthand knowledge of the situation? Or are you just spouting the propaganda you have been taught? And don't think your little disclaimer about it being none of your business excuses your sin of gossip and spreading lies. I feel sad for you that you take such a dim view of human beings, believing that people can be so easilty influenced by others, and that one person's decision not to be religious is "letting their family sink." If you are representative of the Lubavitch chasidus, it is no wonder people more people aren't leaving!
it is A WONDER MORE PEOPLE AREN'T LEAVING is what I meant to write.
Thank you, Mashpia, for calming me down.
Dovid, yes it is all untrue, and every time someone makes such a referance it only proves to me more, how so many of you have no idea of what u are talking about.
dovid is a moron, I am sorry I was not at my PC to delete his post. His next post will be delted. The idiot is banned.
TA--the question of what is social justice is a complicated one, particularly since the term has been politicized. I stick with Rawls' more apolitical definition of the term, which emphasizes the following liberties:
freedom of thought;liberty of conscience as it affects social relationships on the grounds of religion, philosophy, and morality; political liberties (e.g. representative democratic institutions, freedom of speech and the press, and freedom of assembly);freedom of association;freedoms necessary for the liberty and integrity of the person (viz: freedom from slavery, freedom of movement and a reasonable degree of freedom to choose one's occupation); and rights and liberties covered by the rule of law.
I was replying to TA's earlier question about what is social justice. I was also trying to change the subject from Dovid and his mean-spirited post.
LOL! Mashpia you provide some much-needed humor.
but on a serious note, can someone please tell me what social justice?
http://www.answers.com/social%20justice
i am familiar with the tools availibe on the net :-: :-: :-:
TA, discussions here are getting increasingly repetitive, partly due to the fact that the archives are not very accessible.
To echo berl's sentiment, this time around is not only redundant but also much less interesting, partly due to the fact that all the main players are missing and partly due to the fact that the whole Malkie fiasco is OLD news.
...
S.H. we at mentalblog.com are short on staff due to holidays. We also think that people are lazy, will not read archives even if we put it up to their noses and like to argue fro the sake of argument. We also think that 85% of general population are idiots and we have not found away to ban them all.
Many also find various posts through goggle and oblivious to the subject of this blog they feel obliged to enlighten us with this:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments...7915638/
#130600
PS I am tired of Malkie, there is nothing more to add on the subject and she is chiken to speak herself.
beautiful :lol:
...
i would like to take up this question of the relationship between anti-semitism and frumkeit. i don't understand how anyone could believe that Jewish persecution is a punishment from Hashem for not being frum. i know that the rebbe DID NOT teach this, but i wonder why people still try to use it to encourage others to be frum. what kind of person would believe in blaming the vicitms for these atrocities. it scares me and i would like someone to explain this to me.
"i use the term "Our" and "We" only out of the assumption that i am not an idiot. please correct me if i am mistaken."
you're really asking for it, mashpia
Angry Jewess,
"I don't understand how anyone could believe that Jewish persecution is a punishment from Hashem for not being frum. i know that the rebbe DID NOT teach this"
The rebbe does take away what it says in the torah "hishomiru lochem ...v'choroh aff hashem...
But the rebbe says that the degreee that it was in the holocaust which (almost) never existed before, for the there is no explanation.
"but I wonder why people still try to use it to encourage others to be frum."
I definitely agree with you on this.
thank you for clarifying this. i once met a satmar woman who told me that the (satmar) rebbe believed that the holocaust was caused by the zionists. she seemed to believe this herself, and showed me an article from a newspaper quoting him on this. i was horrified.
Angry Jewess,
Whoever told you that "Jewish persecution is a punishment from Hashem for not being frum" is hm, well, seriously lacking in the knowledge of Jewish history and perhaps has low of IQ and empathy level as well. One can just think about the period of the crusades when all Jews were Frum and they were massacred in the most horrific ways that forced them into mass suicide, etc (look up the other gory details if interested).
I do not know why these periodic persecutions happen but I do believe that people that find spiritual justifications for other people’s suffering belong to the 85% (or worse) mentioned above. The masses always demand explanation for mass suffering whether it’s the Bohdan Chmielnicki massacres or the Holocaust or 9/11. One can (should?) always do Tshuva and say Tehilim but to say that point A caused point B in these cases is insensitive and usually driven by some kind of political consideration. Disregards them even if the Satmar Rebbe said it (if he did).
Check out the book The Unchosen. Footsteps does not encourage droping out of the Chasidic sects, but rather gives support to those who do. Many dropouts have no background education to make it in the secular world, as well as the English neccesary to conduct conversations and business. Footsteps provides English classes, GED classes, and psychological help for those who need it.
Hi,
I wanted to put in a few points.
#1- Growing up in Lubavitch with the teachings of Chassidus and seeing and hearing the Rebbe one should apparently not feel at all 'caged in' or 'forced' to anything. Yiddishkiet should be a *plus* and a beautiful choice which one makes, based on what they know. Thats what Lubavitch is- to bring out the core of Yiddishkiet! Internet, Television etc... are all tools which one can use to help bring this message to others! The physical world is not to be frowned upon per se, but its the 'coarseness' of it which should be avoided and not touched, since ultimately it can only harm ones self and others as well.
In other words, Chabad has a message to *all* Jews- ranging from 'not affiliated', to Litfish, to Chassidish etc... And this message is that A- The core of Yiddishkiet is to find the spark and Neshama in another Jew, and B- to see how the entire Creation and all that fills it is directly from G-d. This is not a far fetched enlightenment which only someone who studies Chassidus 24/7 can come to, but something which each and every Jew can bring themselves to. And this in fact is what Tanya dwells on.
#2- A fundamental principle in Judaism is called 'Free Will'- that G-d gives a Jew complete free choice to do and think as he chooses. Of course G-d also tries to guide the person throughout their life, but the choice at each point is given to the person. And this is truly a fundamental part of Judaism. RaMBaM in fact says that one should not say that they were forced to be x y or z, since regardless of circumstance and even nature, a human being has freedom of choice.
#3- (Related to #1) The Rebbe went through the world, and he has been through university and has an intimate knowledge of the world at large, and yet he looks at Yiddishkiet as not only important, but vital to life itself. There are letters of the Rebbe where he discusses anything from the theory of Evolution, to Quantum Physics, to Islam and Xtianity... Yet the Rebbe did not give any credit at all to these things. The only thing which the Rebbe sees as truly important is ones spiritual wellbeing. Of course the physical wellbeing is important as well- and in fact very important- but it can not come at the expense of the spiritual wellbeing. This would be like saying that ones right arm is more important that ones left arm, when in fact there should not be a need to live without either one!
In other words, the ultimate spirituality is one where there is no conflict with physicality. But of course 'physicality' does not mean 'animalistic nature', since this in fact is definitely a conflict. Rather, one should utilize the physical in a good and proper way, in a way which helps and accompanies ones spiritual growth.
And the Rebbe's message is this exactly: dont frown at the world, but dont embrace it; rather, make it. Dont distance yourself from the world, so that one day you'll be forced head first into it, but dont embrace it for the lowest point that it can have. But rather, embrace it on your own terms. Create a spiritually healthy environment, which is in sync with the Torah of HaShem, and help others in this as well. And this is the way to bring true goodness to the world.
#4- I am not very familiar with the other Chassidic groups, but if there is a problem with some where the world is frowned upon entirely, and thus some of the children might be forced to choose 'either or' (ie. either Yiddishkiet or the 'world') then this is probably not a very good thing, and should surely be worked upon (and I would hope that it is being worked on.) However, in Lubavitch this is definitely not the way. The only way that I can imagine one growing up in Lubavitch to view it this way is one of two things: either a very unique case where the family was different than all others in that they were much more similar to other Chassidic groups in the mentality... or the second possibility is a mixture of a misunderstanding on what everything stands for, as well as a catalyst of simply giving in to ones animal inclination.
What I mean in the second option is this: if one were to be constantly told and influenced that what they are doing is 'closed minded' and 'you are ignoring the whole wide big world out there' etc... in this case, Judaism might change from being a positive and enlightening part of life, to something that is perceived as restrictive and a weight on ones being. After such influence, all it would take is ones own 'animal inclination' to say 'listen, my view of Judaism by now simply does not allow me to exist in this world as a normal person. I must choose either Judaism, or normalicy' and it obviously has its opinion on which choice to make...
#5- If one already has a group or organization which caters to those who have left their group, then might I suggest changing it somewhat: make it somewhat like a Chabad house! Help them to change the 'child Yiddishkeit' into an adult way of life. In other words, help them to integrate Judaism into their life as a balanced person, rather than whatever farblungert way they managed to come in with it. Whereas they may walk in to the group thinking that Teffilin is a forced thing, and that Shabbos candles are forced to make you part of a specific group etc... they can walk out being proud that as an individual and as a Jew they get up in the morning to put on Teffilin and Daven, and the girl can feel proud that she is keeping Halachos which are from Shulchan Aruch etc...
In other words, just as in medicine, if a foot has a disease, the solution is not to take off the foot, C'V!, but rather the solution is to treat the foot in a way that it can walk out healthy, and possibly even healthier than before it got hurt...
#6- This point is a personal opinion. I think that whereas in the world at large, everyone has a right to their opinion, however, this rule is not being applied to this case. Whoever got into their head that Yiddishkiet is being forced upon them, then seems to claim that no one has the right to believe that what they do is any of their fellow family's business, or should not be subject to their opinions. However, even according to regulat logic this cannot make sense! The reason is that since the family sees an illness, they have a very clear right to identify it. This does not mean 'chopping it off', Chas Veshalom!, but to identify that 'this is wrong and harmful to themselves and to others'- this is a very clear right. Of course the way to help is through Ahavas Yisroel, but one cannot make that which is permitted as Osur and that which is forbidden and Mutar, just for the sake of keeping the child happy. Happiness and goodness are two different things. Sometimes a small sacrifice which doesnt keep one particularly happy at the moment, can bring true goodness- and happiness- in the longer term. In fact, the very point that this sacrifice is for the ultimate good, this itself should bring happiness.
In other words, I think that it can only be called illogical for someone to think that they can specifically go opposite to everything that they were brought up with, and that no one has a right to think anything about them. In the 'beautiful' 'proper' world, is there not something called 'freedom of thought' (even freedom of expression and action etc...)
This is a lot of writing, but in fact there is 1,000 times this amount, and more, to be said...
No one can judge the trials and tribulations which a specific person is or has been going through, but nonetheless, this does not give them a right to choose that which is harmful, just because of that.
There is a story (in short) of one of the Rebbeim: a certain person came to visit him for a few days. All throughout this time the Rebbe was giving a lot of time for Yechidus with this person. When he left, a certain Chossid decided to ask the Rebbe a question, during his own private Yechidus 'Why is it that all of us, who are devoutly dedicated to you and Chassidus etc. all have to wait for several days, and even then, only receive a small amount of time, yet this man who came, he did not look like a Chossid, and in fact didnt look like he was even affiliated with anything... yet he received so much of the Rebbes time?!' This Chossid was a diamond dealer by profession, and the Rebbe asked him to please bring him some diamonds. The Chossid did so, and brought a batch of diamonds. The Rebbe looked through them, and came upon the biggest one, lifted it up and said 'Aha- this is the best one, no??' The Chossid didnt answer, since he did not want to contradict his Rebbe. The Rebbe said again 'Dont be shy to answer the truth- but is this not the best one? Look at it, big bright etc...' The Chossid bashfully said 'I'll tell you the truth, one has to be familiar with diamonds in order to know these things. In fact' he then went through the diamonds, finding a much smaller one, lifting it up he said 'in fact this one is much more precious than the other one'.
The Rebbe smiled and said 'Likewise relating to your question; One must be an expert in Nashamos in order to be able to judge these things...'
The point of the story is clearly that one cannot judge another. One person may push themselves to do a Mitzvah with extra Hidur, while another person might have to exert extreme effort and self control not to be pulled into a specific Aveira etc...
However, even though one cannot judge another, there are however clear guidelines which are 'right' and 'wrong'- for everyone. And if someone is doing something wrong, then it is objectively wrong, not up to ones own imagination alone.
If someone sees a friend walking into a fire, would it not make sense to try to help them avoid it? Even if the friend claims 'but its so warm... it feels good...' etc. One has an obligation to help them away from it.
Again, all these points cou
Again, all these points could take 100 times this amount of explanation, but I hope that this is enough to bring some light to the issue.
The bottom line though is this: factually, Moshiach is coming very soon. A Jew is obligated to believe in his coming each and every day- and every Jew in fact does believe this, even if not always on the surface; it is a natural belief which exists by each Jew. Since this is the case, any kind of effort which is non-conducive to bringing the Geulah, can only bring darkness and pain- in the short term, and in the long run as well- to all those involved. Anyone who grew up with the Rebbe, will inevitably stay connected. It is simply not possible for them to stay far away on a long term basis. The Rebbe gives a person a glimpse into their soul, and once this glimpse is seen, it cannot be forgotton.
Even though Moshiach is truly right around the corner- and in fact much closer than that- the ability for darkness is just as present. A Jew has this choice up until the very last moment. Only the point is that when Moshiach is truly here, one would only then appreciate what they could have gained through adding in Torah and Mitzvos in time of Golus.
In Torah it brings many prophesies on the era of Moshiach, and many of them are very painful, however, a way to ease this process, and in fact skip much of that which is described, is through active effort to bring Moshiach, through adding in Torah and Mitzvos, as well as helping others in this.
One more thing to add- I think that if one might look a bit closer at the root of the issue which is mentioned here, one can see many factors. One might be a lack of balance in a family arena (I dont mean anything negative about a specific family, but I'm refferring to, for example, a household which is Baalei Teshuvah. Many times the parents can go to a very far extreme completely denying the outside world, just in order to keep their Emunah and Yiddishkiet. This approach can sometimes bring a child to rebel and 'prove', so to speak, that the outside world exists. The child may do so simply out of a need to be honest with themselves, or it can be in order to have a leverage on the parents- to prove their own identity. Or a combination of both...) Another might be too much balance- the lack of chalange, etc... But once again, if I have the ability to speak, then it would be to convey the message that regardless of circumstance, one cannot blame another for their actions. A person has free will and should truly reflect on what Yiddishkiet is and what it is not, before taking action in any way. As it says in Torah 'Taamu ureu, ki tov havaye'- 'taste and you will see, that HaShem is good'. One must 'taste', so to speak' and they will see.
May we have good news, and best of wishes for all involved. I truly hope that the light of Chanukah can help bring light to the individuals involved, and to all Jews, and in fact to all humanity. May we merit the ultimate Geulah, with the coming of Moshiach, immdiately!
Meir
I'd like to comment on one other point that I saw mentioned here- about family. Yiddishkeit is the very reason that a family would not reject a child no matter what. Were it theology or personal opinion, then of course if the child disagrees, then that could be the end of it. But since the ideals which Yiddishkiet brings, and which Chabad and the Rebbe stress on a fundamental basis, the fact that 'Lo yidach mimenu yidach'- no Jew will or can be left out, therefore, no action, however painful, can warrant the abandonment of another Jew.
In other words, I believe that it is precisely the fact that the family is in Lubavitch which places family at such a high esteem. In the world at large, a disagreement can unfortunately, Lo Aleinu, bring people to quit speaking completely! Yet with the way of Chassidus, such a thing should never be allowed to happen.
Another point that I'd like to reiterate, and that is that the one who is running this organization might think strongly about gearing the nature of the 'foundation' towards helping others gain balance in their Yiddishkiet. This way they will not be running into space, but whatever problems that they faced at home would also be, with G-d's help, worked out. If one shows care enough to help them, then I think that this would help them much more. In addition, and as a side consequence, such a thing would surely bring much Nachas to ones own family. Of course ones life should not be 100% dictated by needs of parents etc... but nonetheless, if one cares about family, then maybe this could be an added bonus, since certainly much Agmas Nefesh could come to ones parents from running an organization
which helps others to harm themselves...
In other words, from every perspective I think it would make sense to place a focus on helping the people to balance themselves- not run away, C'V, since running away is simply, in the long run, hurting themselves and all those involved.
All the best, Moshiach now!
Meir
Hi,
I did a search online and found the website relating to this organization, and I'd like to add something.
If I do you a favor, does that mean that you must believe and worship what I believe? Of course not! Suppose I show extreme compassion and love towards other people, does this mean that others must believe all that I do? Of course not. You or they may take the attribute which is good, and integrate it into their own personality- or try to as best as possible... But no way does respect equal agreement.
Likewise with every Jew. One should see the core goodness of them, and see that as the real identity of the other person, and in fact adopt that as something which ones self is striving for. However, sometimes very good intentions simply do not have the tools through which to express themself. For example, someone who grew up on an island in the Carribean may feel that swimming with sharks is good thing, since it helps one to develop skills at survival, which will help them to catch fish when they get older. You may live in New York City, and work in a high rise building, using a computer most of the time, etc, but to this person, such a concept is not imaginable. This person knows of fish, and sharks. And knows that you will one day have to catch fish, therefore you must learn to swim with sharks, and learn to survive with them.
On the other hand, another person who lives in a big city, this person may recommend that you take a course in computer technology, since this would be a good living in the future.
Which one is good and which one is not? Surely they both want what is good for you, and surely they both care about you... Which then would you listen to? To listen to the latter would be disrespectful to the former, would it not? Seemingly so. Yet to agree to the advice of the island dweller would be truly ridiculous, since such a future most probably is not in your plans...
A logical answer would be to sit with the first one and explain that in the future you dont expect to need to go fishing in the sea, and that therefore, the best idea would probably be something more along the lines of a computer course. This person, however, does not agree, since he/she cannot fathom what a computer is, nor can the person understand how the recommendations wouldnt be helpful for you...
What should one do? Obviously, after trying as best as possible to explain the situation, one simply explains that even 'if you may not understand what I am saying, I do understand how much you care about me, and I will take this deep care with me for the rest of my life. In practice, however, I must do something other than what you recommend.'
Not taking the advice is in no way harming the person who cares deeply for you, but rather saying 'I accept your deep care for me, and I will live with it and adopt it as my own ideal, but based on the city and country that I grew up in, you cannot possibly understand what it is that I must be doing'.
I think that something similar can apply in such a case: someone who is dear to a person wantd and encourages the person to go in a direction which is opposite from what they were on at the moment. This person may have good motives- perhaps supremely idealistic and empathetic- but they are nonetheless not taking into consideration what the other person may be living in. The reason for this is that they may simply have never even been exposed to true Judaism in the first place! Yet they speak as though they know about it, and they encourage one to go and make a regular life- one 'where you can support yourself like a normanl human being'. etc.
I believe that such a thing is not uncommon today- a grandmother or aunt or grandfather etc. who claims to care deeply for you, and does not really have a clue about Judaism (maybe has an idea about Reform etc... but not Yiddishkiet as it is in the Torah) and therefore applies their own ideas on reality, to you. They dont have an idea that you are conscious of a deeper reality, and have a lifestyle which they cannot truly imagine, yet nonetheless they feel the right, as the relative, to comment on what you should be doing.
They may feel that they have a relative in need- a relative who is in a trapped cult and has no idea about the world.
Even though in Chabad one is constantly made aware of the world- but in a light of Chassidus and Torah, and a world which you create, not simply live in- nonetheless, the relatives may try very hard to give over a different point of view: one which says 'you're living in a bubble'. And if this is said and given over enough times, it can succeed, Lo'A, in becoming more a part of ones own view 'Maybe I am living in a bubble?'...
Yet this is simply a misunderstanding! The relative is trying to teach you how to swim with sharks, yet you dont want to, and you know of a different lifestyle wherein not only wont you be swimming with sharks, but you will be planning with the island developers from an office in Manhatten, exactly how to help keep the sharks away from fisherman etc...
In other words, you are living in a world of potential which is not graspable by the other party! Yet they convey over to you a perspective based on their own, until this seeps in somewhat and can affect ones own views.
I think that many people must go through this in Chabad and elsewhere. They have relatives which think that they know better than them, and they try very hard to convey the 'enlightened world' over to them. Yet one must realize that the other person has no clue on what it is that they truly stand for! They claim that they do, and they seem to have an idea, but in fact they do not. And I'm speaking from firsthand knowledge- most Jews believe that they know completely about all other sects. They believe that they can judge. Yet, if they have never experienced a true Shabbos, has never studied Torah and Chassidus from an authentic source, etc... how can they truly have any idea about it?
Yet their intentions may nonetheless be very noble- to help the relative who is in the 'religious cult'...
One must therefore realize that respect and kindness have no relation to accepting another persons beliefs. One can say 'Aunty/Grandmother/Uncle/Cousin etc, I understand your concern and I admire your compassion, but I am very well aware of where I am and what I'm doing. You may think we are crazy, and you may think that we are closed minded etc. but this is not the case. If you wish to understand more, then you must study more about it. I love you nonetheless, but just as I respect your right to believe what you do, you must respect my right to the same.'
And such a thing is only logical to be acceptable in Western culture- respect does not have to mean worship.
I'm mentioning this here since on the website it seems that the grandmother was a major 'inspiration' for the initiative. I'm therefore saying that if in fact this kind of thing applies here, then what I have explained also does apply.
One may say 'well, then it should apply the other way around as well- let the parents understand that their daughter can choose what she wishes, and still respects them... etc.' However, my point here is related not to a general philophy, but to a very specific case: relatives who do not hold of their little cousins being in a cult of strict Chassidic Judaism. And in this case it is vital to realize what is involved. (Whereas in the flip side- relating to ones own parents- I would not think that this kind of thing could truly apply, since the choice was very largely based on a misunderstanding, and on other influences and circumstances... etc. Though in fact, with 'Baalei Tshuva', I think that a similar approach should be applicable...)
Of course, if actual words cannot be spoken like this, then the general message should be made known- ie. 'I love you, but I have insight into a different kind of life than you can imagine at present. If you wish to know more about it, I will gladly explain that which you wish to know... But just as I respect your right to live by your ideals, it is only respectful for you not to interfere with my ideals, and the ideals which my parents so painfully tried to ingrain into me. In fact, if you dont respect their rights to educate their children, then how can I possibly respect *you*? How can you expect me to respect your ideals of 'freedom', when you do not allow your very own son/daughter/cousin etc... to teach their children how they seem fit...?'
I hope that the point is somewhat clear. It is not disrespectful to not believe as someone who is related to you believes. One can respect them through acknowledging the good in them, without agreeing to their point of view. And specific to such a case, I think it is simply disrespectful of the actual grandparent to be going against their very ideals of freedom- since such freedoms seem to not include freedom to choose Judaism?! (As they are trying to get the child to go against the choice of their parents- ie. their own children's choice- thus not embodying their very own ideal of 'personal choice'... etc.)
I dont think that I'm familiar with the particular family involved, but since it was made public, and the person does not seem to object to this, therefore I figure that such a comment is not out of place, and might be helpful. And in fact can be helpful for others as well in general.
All the best, and a Good Chodesh and a Happy Chanukah.
Meir
PS- I have an email address which is rebbesmessage@yahoo.com (it was made for something else but if you email to there then I could check it.)
If the founder of that organization could email me that would be good, since I truly believe that she should be using the organization as a kind of 'Chabad House', which can help people, not simply encourage them to depart from their lives, C'V. It would give Nachas to her parents, and it would also still be helping those who have had difficulties for whatever reason. And I would assume that the majority are coming from other Chassidic sects, since in Chabad I simply do not see how such an organization can really apply (Lubavitchers are not only not cut off from the world, and not only not limited in their dealings with the world, but are more involved with people in all parts of the world than most other people. And they in fact try to help *develop* the world, rather than seclude themselves from it.)
Therefore (ie. if most are coming from non-Chabad,) maybe simply teaching them the Chabad perspective on Judaism and Torah, this can help them to reintegrate themselves into a functional life... Basically showing where Judaism fits into life, and putting it into perspective...
All the best,
Meir
Meir, I would leave this post as a classic example of idiotic ramblings, but enough. Do not post here again and go away brother.
I'm sorry if it was long, but I had important points to bring which I think should be said. I think that such misunderstandings which involve such a consequence should be addressed...
If it must be shorter, then the points could come down to this:
1- One must look at the source of influence, and make sure not confuse respect for agreement.
2- In Chabad the result should be one choosing Yiddishkiet because of its *addition* to life, not restricting of it. If something else results, then I think it must be from other sources.
3- I would truly believe that such an organization should be used as a sort of 'Chabad House', with a psychologist possibly as well, to help such people balance their life's- to re-understand that which they grew up with.
The other points related to details of these.
If it were to be written as an article, then surely it should be shorter, but what I wrote was more like a 'Farbrengen' than an article. It looked like this kind of website is meant for simply commenting on what might add in to be helpful...
All the best, and Happy Chanukah (its still Chanukah here)
Meir
meir
it seems you have not read much info about the nature or objectives of Malkie's organization, she is not a girl/woman who is able to show the side of yiddishkiet and chassidus you mention in number 2 of your last comment, she doesn’t see it that way she wasn’t involved in chassidus long enough (or maybe never at all) as an objective student, if you read the book "unchosen" you will notice that she asked the Rebbe if she should go to collage before gimul tamuz, whereas she claims that her transformation took place after 3 tamuz, it is evident that her leaning towards collage was not as a shlucha on campus but as an open mind seeking to "find out" what the "big wide world" has to offer.
malkie doesn’t try to familiarize her members with true yiddishkiet, the way it is enlightened through the teachings of chassidus, (possibly because she does not know what that is, I think if she would be able to do this then she would, as she seems to be genuine in trying to help people.)
i agree with you that such an organization should be instituted,
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