mentalblog.com comments:
I am probably much much older than the average reader of this site.
While I have seen clips of Matisyahu do his thing and I was impressed, I too have a HERGESH that the whole thing the "arum" of the act is not in line with classic Torah values.
Tzeniuth is not only in terms of the length of a women's skirt etc.
I can think of the issue of the sexes mixing at these events, of the whole culture of Reggae and rock drugs sex etc. What is a chasid doing in this "cemetary'?
I can think of an answer making money and gaining fame . And there is nothing wrong with that.
But who knows how many fairly Naive Jewish teens will be "lured" into this world which is not friendly to say the least to Torah values.
Kiruv: Is one allowed to join the Catholic Church as a active priest as a way of being mekarev Jews who converted ? Kiruv and outreach have its clear limitations too.
I presume the musician in question is a fine and erlich guy with no Messora and little book OR more importantly experiental knowledge of Yiddishkeyt. As the old rav of NH told the Chabad people once "Nit a bord und a kapote macht a Chasid" I am not impressed by a man with a beard and Lubavitch hat on stage. Would we be impressed with a Satmarer hasid who ran a successful night club and rubbed shoulders with the rich and hip ?
Are these concerts and the people there the types we would want our children to marry. I as a father say NO. I can live with out the new mixuture of Pop Music (to call it that) and Chassidus (as if somebody who is a Lubavitcher for 5 years is a rep of Chassidic values).
We all have the natural instinct to kvell when one of our own makes it , but the state of Lubavitch civilization is such that its members are more proud of a rock musician than someone who is an accomplished rabbinical scholar.
To my Lubavitcher "friends" just 1 series of questions would rabbi M. Schneerson the rebbe attend M's concerts - YES OR NO ???. Would Rav Shmuel Levitin dance at one of his concerts ? Would Rav Kesselman become nispoel of the Reggae happenings ?
f the answer to all is NO, then I am on to something.(Let me add if we are defining ourselves as MO or just traditional Jews some of my criticism still remains)
1. responding somewhat in kind to schneur - rebbe (i think) disapproved of shlomo carlebach. i don't see a difference between carlebach in his time and matisyahu today. carlebach's music is used by all flavors of ortho-chasid. doesn't make his methodolgy of judaism and entertainment kosher. (not sure why his music remains kosher, but that's secondary to this conversation, which i believe is about the concert)
2. about using whether the rebbe or *accepted* chasid would participate, as the barometer of what is right - that's going too far. what a rebbe and chosid chose to do and not do should not necessarily render anything else treife. a better (more practical?) barometer would be whether matisyahu would be comfortable bringing his scene to the rebbe. i doubt he'd have a problem singing his lyrics and style in front of the rebbe, but i'd be surprised if he wouldn't hesitate to bring the gyrating, mixed gender crowd along.
Well said Schneur. While I have enjoyed clips of his music that I have heard & I think he is very talented, I don't allow my kids to buy his music. My 9 year old son has heard some of his music and asked me to buy him a CD. There are a couple of concerns that I have 1)I don't want my son to develop a taste for reggae and other goyishe music and I feel like Mattisyahu's music might open the door to this and 2) What happens when my son is older and wants to see him live -I don't want him going to clubs etc... Am I over reacting? My kids are just as happy listening to the kosher "bubble gum music" MBD, Schweky, Avraham Fried etc...
Shlomo Carlebach sang exclusively in Lashon Kodesh. Shlomo built on nigunim and musicology he picked up in Bais Chayenu and at the tisch of the Modsitzer rebbe rav Saul Yedidya Taub.
In Shlomo's case the times did not dictate separation of the sexes as that was not the norm in most of the Orthodox world either.
Until the advent of the counter culture Shlomo was NOT part of the rock and roll world. When he joined the counter culture with drugs etc thats when the frum world gave him a get krisuth together with Zalman Schachter.
Shlomo was not a cross over figure , 99% of his concerts were aimed at Jews .
Matisyahu is a cross over figure , few of his concerts are aimed at Jews. He is a follower of Reggae and rap music the culture of both are antithetical to Tore values. Reggae is I believe part of the Rasfatarian movement a religion that believed the alte Emperor of Ethiopia Haile Selassee was divine. Although I am not a rav this seems to be abizaraya of Ovada zorah RL
Have you guys ever seen Rap videos and their portrayal of females !
Today even MO concerts at YU are separate seating , so M comes along and gives a "heter" to FRUM teens for mixed seating socialization , dancing and dress not in conformity with even MO standards.
When the Village Voice put M on its cover (last week) its a wake up call to frum jews that there is something wrong here. as far as I recall the Rebbe was never on the cover of the VOICE.
Whadeva , I am not going into a pilpul about Rebbe chasid relationship, do you for a moment believe that the Rebbe would shep naches from the M concert ? Of course not !!
Schenur, why do you keep comparing this to Rebbe. Makes no sense, really.
schneur, I generally stay away from making any comments on things musical. But since your observations seem to be strictly limited to the religious aspects of the Matisyahu phenomenon, I will allow myself to completely second everything you said here on that topic.
"do you for a moment believe that the Rebbe would shep naches from the M concert ? Of course not!!"
Berl, are you certain about this statement?
I am not comparing the Rebbe to M.I just want to know how M's chabad fans integarte the rebbe into their music.
It just seems that to many "street"Lubavitcher he is the "greatest" thing to hit Lubavitch since the events of Gimmel tammuz.
Besides 1 man in Jerusalem who is curently teaching Torah in the Vatican , no other Lubavitcher has caught the imagination of Lubavitch.
Yes he sounds good,and if he urged frume Yiddn that his concerts were not for them I would cut him slack, but it looks to me that this is a serious attempt at integrating kids from frum homes in a life style that is highly questionable.
no, I am not. But in hergesh I agree with the gist of most of what Schneur is saying here on this topic. I should be more careful with my 100% endorsements, though.
Schneur, who is teaching in Vatican? Even Isroel?
I am sure the Rebbe would kvel more if he heard a wonderful shiur by Rav Kalmenson in NH or if he read the intellegent articles (and his important work on Judaism and Homosexuality)in Hebrew and English by Rav Chaim Rappoport of London or if he saw the Chassiduth mevueres brochures that bring DACH to the masses of Talmide Chachomim.
I think th Rebbe would be kvelling over those things than a Reggae concert by M.
"Layder" in Chabad today people like Chaim Rapaport, Rav Kalmansohn, and others who proffer Torah, wisdom and intellegence not PR , photo ops or fame , are not recognized by their own community and its people in other communities who have high regard for people like Rappaport, rav Reitport in BP, etc.
Now Lipa Schmeltzer he is great - Abi Melebt thats a great video !
Chassidim are becoming mellow and funky !
schneur,
I agree with most of what you said, but if M was an ffb & learned in a chasidesher yeshiva all his life then there is no question that singing in a bar has no heter. I like to think of M as someone on his way in, rather then someone on his way out.
For a frum Jew however to attend these evens, is definitely not the most acceptable. It’s true that M might cause a greater nesoyin to some bochurem to go to a bar etc. but I’m sure that not his intent & desire.
whadeva ,
The rebbe was againts shlomo c. for other resons. Not against his "style" of music. True the rebbe did not wan to sing SC songs at his farbrengins(although 'am yisroel have no fear' is SC's tune (mekimi)), that was for another reason.
But his style is very jewish, they're beautiful, straight to the heart. & btw I do think that there is a “Jewish style” of songs. The ‘old’ goyesher songs are similar to ours, not the other way around. That’s simply because the world those years was more refined then now.
your second comment is 100%.
"Yes he sounds good,and if he urged frume Yiddn that his concerts were not for them I would cut him slack, but it looks to me that this is a serious attempt at integrating kids from frum homes in a life style that is highly questionable."
Last year Matisyahu came to a Beis Rivkah after school program and told the girls that his concerts were not meant for frum crowds and encouraged them to stay away.
thought appropriate to mention the Rebbe's words that relate to our discussion:
Printed in LS page 429: A response to the question: "מענה לשאלה האם לעשות תקליט עם נגונים על פסוקים בניגוני או"ה"
An answer to a question if one should/can make a record with goyisher songs on yiddisher pssukim"
"צ"ל הוראת רב מאנ"ש שי' מורה הוראה ועסקן האםפשר וכדאי להכשירם. ספיקו לחומרא":
There needs to be a pssak from a Rov of Anash, who is a "moreh horooh" (rules on halachik matters) and also an activist? if it POSSIBLE and if it is WORTHED to kasherize them. In a case of a doubt one should be strigent".
Obviously this does not necessarily cover the appropriateness of using M's songs to approach yidden who may (or may not) come closer to yyidshkeyt etc. but it overlaps the issue (specially some points raised by Schneur).
if LS is likuttei sichos, then please say which volume?
Likkutey Sichos Vol. 24.
An alternative way for askan: some active in communal affairs.
if you're talking to me, i fail to understand what you're asking. what doyou mean "there isn't more printed"? in any event, it's clear that there needs to be a directive of a Rov (and also an askan?) to know whether or not we can be machshir lyrics with goyisher niggunim and in case there is a doubt to refrain from it.
i think askan would suggest someone who would pasken more l'kula - or would see what the tune and situation is, and would decide accordingly. i really don't know what the circumstances were at the time (which wasn't that long ago, as far as music is concerened), so although one may follow this "horaah" with kabolas ol, i need to see more proof - i.e. to know what the rebbe's shita was - not just one line to someone else.
i think "askan" would help the moreh horooh if "efshar" possible or he would help the moreh horooh to establish "im kday" (if appropriate) to be machshir, so that the "moreh horooh" (whose job is usually to pasken shaylos and is usually not an askan), for ultimately the halocho is in the hands of the moreh horooh (not in the hands of bale batim) keposhut! and of course: "sofek lechumroh"!
of course it's kday to look more into it to find out the Rebbe's shitoh but an outline can be found in these words (and of course, the Rebbe's words are "meleim" that these matters are given to be decided by "more horooh" and not by other people, despite their best intentions and initial motivations, keposhut).
1. The issue is not music style but the "arum" the culture of Rap. R&R and where it leads. Who cares about the style of music and where it derives from as long as there is distance between the original and the new.
2. M may well be exposing assimilated Jews to Judaism for the 1st time, he amy also be exposing frum teens for the first time to an alien and treif culture. as Mr. Gertner A'H of the Mlochim told me years ago that Chabad today is like the para aduma - metaher Temaim and Metame Tehorim. I argued with him , but maybe he was correct ? That worries me !
3. I also wrote that M is an erliche guy but without a Messora thus it is the duty of other religious Jews to advise him.
4. What's wrong with Rav Chaim Rappoport ?
5. The problem with Shlomo was not his music its the culture he surrounded himself with in many cases - drugs , free sex etc.
I must again add that the Rastafarian movement believes in Hailee Salasee as being divine . He was the last Emperor of Ethiopia.This is avoda zara mamash .
Regaee is part of this religionor at least anoutgrowth of this religion. Mr. Bob Marley (sic) was a advocate of drugs as a way of life and he is the Poster boy for this music.
Can we just brush all of this aside?
I do not care if Lipa Schmetzer were a rastafarian I would still be critical.
Finally I am hardly on the war path against Matisyahu, but lets proceed with greta caution in this matter.
His music and its impact is certainly as important as other issues over which the Charedi community has gone bonkers in recent months.
If the issue of teen dropouts is of concern, lets think as to what we invite into OUR HOMES with a frum heksher.
Matisyahu did in one year that MBD, Avrmel and their clones could't - in 30 years
Wow ! my concern is not only for Chabad teens. In fact MO teens are much more likely to get sucked in seeing a artist with beard and hat, they may presume this to be a hechsher for the whole scene.
My concern is much more for MO teens who may use this as an escuse to get aprental approval to attend events otherwise off limits.
Mashpia,
Can you elaborate on Chaim Rappaport not being Chabad?
as far as i'm concerned CR is as chabad and more than the "original" "undiluted" chabad;
as far as i'm concerned many who have hijacked the ideology of chabad do not necessarily represent the ideas of chabad as transmitted to us by the Rebbe...despite having the names "mashpia" or other authoritative name;
but that is neither here or there: Halevay they will be more chayim rappaports and then the mashpiim who who transmitted so much misunderstandings of torah (including the maspia of mashpiim!) would clean up the mess they created. But unfortunately there are so few of them and the mess they created is eyn leshaer.. and they did not have the honesty to come real clean and explaining how reall "toissi" means "toissi" (and not only "lebachutz" ele "bifnim") so that CR would not have to do the beautiful job he is doing (that nobody else k'mat is not doing).
all of the above and more.
and "bashing" is not the intended word.
mashpia, i found a job for you:
http://aussieecho.blogspot.com/2...ew-
mesivta.html
TA,
you crack me up.
(some times)
the only way is to send him down under... He can duke it out with Shoshana...
i'm also not interested in the debate (actaully i'm not interested in debates) rebbe not moshiach etc.
it's not "not conmdeming"; it's that one CREATES something has the obligation to clean up his mess.
and: the mess created is on two levels: beyn odom lemokom (and the new religions are a afteraffect from that earthquake) and beyn odom lechaveroy.
There is a lot of hurt and pain done to people as a result of the philosphy created.
The Smug of dismissing anything and everything as nothing or as "revenge or hate" is also part of the culture that has been created in the recent past.
The ease to use this medium to besmirch an individual (like CR) as not being chabad or that his statements do not represent chabad, when it was totally uncalled for (they were not discussing his positions; there was mere mention by someone that he is a nachas to the Rebbe) is also partially (of course i'll not blame every single ill to them) a reault of the new culture: if can just raise one of the ills: Not only is "middos toyvos" (like not looking to speak out against a person when there is no need for it) not a value that is demanded from the mashpiim; but subtly: they are rejected as part of the avodah in today's chabad. It's a mitzvah rabbah to give out titles to anyone who does not toe the party line (be it right or left.
and then there is tzad hahofchi: halocho can be a second class citizen if the neeed to further party line is at stake.
"ot, i know your name is an excuse for all spelling mistakes that may come, but some times is one word "sometimes"
thanks mashpia.
every lesson i get helps.
ot, i know your name is an excuse for all spelling mistakes that may come...
mashpia, are we then correct in assuming that your name, in turn, provides cover for your poor sentence structure, atrocious grammar and down right eye-straining output?
Thank you for retracting!
While we are at it: about your comment "not one thing based on logic":I'll use this opportunity to
make a point:
L of late are lots of times lacking in the ability to convey ideas with "logic", ie. making a point that is relevant to the discussion or make a point that leads to another point.
They seem to hear a word and immediately "click" in their minds that there is a "response" to that claim and the response goes out whether or not it makes sense or it answers the point made.
In addition to that: They are self righteous and smug: a) thinking that the person who makes the claim "does not think", b) that *they* the L have the answer to the claim. Both aer false in many situations. c) They also customarily engage in confrontational exchanges when not everything in the world is a "Debate" or a contest of who is the "smartest" (which incidentally many times LL are not the "winners"; although they think they are and make a big deal out of it). d) They think that "rubbing it in" or make an one liner the "won" the debate.
I must take issue with your style:Although you make numerous valid points and are intelligent, bnevertheless: 1) your smugness and self righteous (as if you "own" logic and make a logical point and at the same think that your respondent does not think or reposnd logically) shows through your messages. 2) especially: when you really sometimes do not respond logically and especially do not acknowledge the other pov, 3) the sense of "winning" the debate seeps through bearich anpin (especially when this is not the case). 4) The glee of rubbing in a "bitush" hazulass and a "schtech" is the gevaldikste "nachas ruach" of all. All of the above consonant with the spirit of "kol gay shoteh" that the FR speaks about in the maamorim.
(and incidentally: it may relate to the problenm of L not acknowledging that situations are different and perhaps using one method that is appropriate for one situation to another situation is disastrous veakm"l bozeh).
Let's take a look a the discussion about M:
Shenur made (leainoyoos daati) a very valid points about it being negative. he also pointed out that the source of this kind of music shtams from Az which calls for an additional simas lev. He responded to a point made by someone that ".... Reggae being non-jewish so consequentally Avodeh Zeroh is unfounded. It is a music form, and as far as i know, B"H Matisyahu does not have immoral portrayal of females. Just necause rap has also been used to portray anti-torah values does not make it forbidden. We cant let the negative outlook of something stop us from using it for good", the point made here: regardless if there are negative points to something, we "can't let it" "stop from using ut for good", to which
Shneur responded: " YeshivaBochur . Your last line . You should check that out with your mashoia or Rosh yeshiva.
Throughout our history we abandoned many neutral things because it was taken over by avoda zara and Christianity.
Your last line is not in line with main line Orthodox Jewish thinking. Once something is adopted by Ovada zara , its open to re-evaluation by Judaism. Bowing down completely (as we do NOW only on YOM Kippur) is an example of this.
As far as Reggae and Rock go even lehavdil our Fundamentalist neighbors realize that while the music is not problematic the cultre about it IS (drugs sex, mixed dancing, dating, anti parental behavior, in some cases homo sexuality violence ) and thats enough to have a RED light flash ---PROCEED WITH CAUTION al achas kama vekama for JEWS WHO CLAIM TO BE CHASSIDIM AND ARE MEDAKEDEK IN HALOCHA and would not touch the tablet K or use Star K chickens !!"
To that you responded: "schneur, maybe you should stop using the internet? isn't that what makes us (as lubavitchers) different from other groups? wasn't the rebbe's approach to always harness and capitalize on modern technology. of course, every case is different, but to make generalizations to either side of the coin is totally absurd. although the truth is that generalizations can be made, but they aren't the simple black and white rules that you lay out. an interesting note, people usually refer to the gray area as things that are undecided or fuzzy. but gray is also only composed of black and white - and when gray is printed, it is nothing more than a low density area of black dots, which appear to the naked eye as gray. the same thing can be said here; yes, there are rules, not everything can be used for good שבירתן תקנתן but who should determine? i don't think that there is a single thing in the world that is pareve and hasen't been used by avodah zara, so should we then ban all of these technologies?
טראכט א ביסל":
You did not respond to his *particular* point about this being negative, but used the "mumbo-jumbo" lines used by L with a whole sermon about "internet", ignoring the fact that Shenur probably agrees with about "not stoping to use internet" and understands the power of "harnessing and ca[pitalize in modern technology", if you have followed his comments in the past half a year you would see how ridiculous your comment sounds in describing Shenur's position aas such. Most importantly: you "philosophized" and "seermonized" not responding to the particular points of Shneur, and making an analogy from M to the internet is a very poor one or better not an analogy at all. Neglecting to address a point: that something that originates from avodah zarah may be possul and not appropriate does not make it "logical".
And yet, you cavalierly end of the message "טראכט אביסעל",
Maybe you and other should "טראכט א ביסעל" that are not the "owners" of logic and that other people think as well and also perhaps time to reevaluate how we adopt a particular principle to a particular situation (not enough to "click" the button: "diroh betachtonim" "everything goes" or the other "farkvetched fertunkelen misnaged" etc nd adopt the logical response, but better to assess the situation as it is from it's own position) and most importantly do not sound off so "gaavodik"..
veikor kol hoikrim that we do not look at these as "Debates" or "contest" but as a medium to bring all people together....
GS
and Freleche C
nachaletz,
I agree with most of what you said in you last comment. However, your usage of the term "Lubavitch" seems off to me. "Lubavitch" is an idea/ideal, not a bunch of people. If you had an issue with what chassidus Chabad stood for (and that can only be defined by its Rebbes' teachings and directives), it would be appropriate to use that term. You, on the other hand, seem to take umbrage at some prevalent hanhogeis and shiteis that are not in the sprit of Lubavitch and are arguably even contrary to it. To my mind, all fair criticism of such attitudes should follow the logic of divrei Teiroh einom mekablim tumoh. To put it simply, proclaiming oneself a Lubavitcher means little unless such claim is supported by deeds that are in accord with the ideals of chassidus Chabad.
Note: The preceding was not meant as an exercise in hair-splitting; it is my considered opinion that this distinction is of critical importance if a meaningful conversation on this topic is desired.
TA, I noticed that when the "preview" button is used, comments sometimes get posted twice with identical time stamps.
Berl,
i'm sorry and i will correct what i meant with L: Lubavitchers (not CV Lubavitch).
GS
Freleche C
GES:
Your statement:
"i understood schneur's comments as some kind of kal v'chomer or request that we be very critical of all these new technologies. yes, i may have gone a bit too far with that speech".
Far from it: He wrote directly about Raggae music.
You:
"but let me reinstate my opinion:
of course there are dnagers involved with every foreign culture, or every culture which isn't jewish, for it all involves some sort of klipa, some sort of potential negative anti-torah influence which may lead to undesired results. but does this mean that we should always be standing with our heads behind our backs and worrying if "it's coming to get me"? this isn't the way one should be looking at things. what makes someone a "dirah b'tachtonimnik"...isn't the fact that he uses the internet, while the others do not, for that is only a difference is maaseh, or in the terms of chassidus, malchus. just because he decides that the internet isn't dangerous enough to use, while his mea shearim counterparts think they otherwise, won't be machria and make him a Dirahbtachtonimnik (i must say that this is a very obscure cliche)..".
FOr the sake of argument (although i generally agree with the putline in theprevious paragraph: From his point of view it could be: that using and exploring the powers Hashem gave us is in and of itself a way to serve Hashem and something positive (something like the tihrd way in your next paragraph).
You:
"the difference lies in how someone percieves the world; is it some evil monster which is coming to get us, of which we must constantly watch our backs, or is the world something which can help and assist us in avodas hashem, or is the world the purpose of avodas hashem itself".
O)r maybe another alternative: There are wonderful things in the world to explore (in general those that are included in mitzvas asseh) and are "gani" etc and also there are evil things that the avoda is to distance onself of (like those that belong to loy taasse) and actually chassidus makes a big deal about the shoresh of loy taasse greater than the shoresh of asseh etc. and therefore there are instances where the former application is necessary and there are instances where the latter is.
You:
"judging by schneur's tone, it seemed to me that although he used the internet, listened to M music etc.. he was still under the perception that this is wrong and evil".
Not that internet is evil but rather that Raggae is evil.
You:
"asher al kein, the way to prevent people from all the adverse effects from wordly influences, such as internet and reggea, is not through warning people from the evil monster, but rather through presenting the culture itself as a jewish ideal, as something which can bring good to the world".
Or another point ov: That the internet is something that parve and nogah: can be used to highest of highest leavodash hashem or to the lowest of lowest and we should embrace and harness and capitlize for highest of highest,
but Raggae (a possible legitimate point ov) is inherently not yiddish and therefore (at least for some) is not the way to use for avodas hashem.
You:
"the reason for this is that foreign influence is inevitable. this point was not clear from schneur's post.
had we been living many many years ago, in the dessert, in a ghetto, or in some other isolated community, then maybe warning people from the dangers of anti-torah influences would have sufficed for proper education and chinuch, but as times come, our avodah becomes different and harder".
True: but some may claim (and maybe legitimately so) that they are given the "koychoss" to distane themselves from these influences.
".. it is much harder for people to educate and present something that is essentialy their enemy in a positive light, why, it would be better if it would just be shoved aside. so why the need for the right eye?"
i don't quite follow what you're saying here. But iae: if what i think you are trying to say is the correct point of your message: I will reverse the table to you (an expression nothing sinister here): Do you recommend putting "mvies" in a positive light, siince we no longer live in ghettoes? Do you recommend we should encourage our children to sing goyishe songs and show it is not 'our enemy" but to see it in a positive light? obviously not; the same can be said (and i beleive that is what Schneur tried to get accross as his position) about music that is essentially goyish:
You claim that there is no such thing. Many others claim that there is such a thing. Our mashpiim (here i mean fond memroies) i remember HaRav Greenglass zol zeyn gezuntun shtark tried to influence us very hard not to listen to other musics ( he sinlged out goyishe mousic and even further as to distance us from things other than nichoach).
According to yuor weltenchaaung: is there no such thing as "goyishe clothes" beetzem (even if they conform with tzinus rules)? Is there no such thing as "yidishe losohon" not "prosst loshon" can "grobbe loshon" be "harnessed and capitalized for zvodas hashem in the geenral sue (other than "hakheh ess shinov" etc etc)?
YOu:
"another question is, why are these problems not as common by the non-jewish or fry community? why don't the goyim get as upset and outraged about these issues?"
The question is the answer! (as wwritten in the last parasgraph).
You:
"false religious zealotry originates from this.
but the goyish community sees these things in a good light, a way to enhance someone's mood, a way to make someone happy - but it is the ultimate purpose in which they err."
No: there is such a thing (and sorry to sound again bitter: but until 3 of tammuz L's have been sensitized to such things; but after 3 tammuz they became disensitized for things that other frumme yidden consider yiddish and things which they consider non yiddish,...
I don't think i will have time to continue to respond the other part of your post before shabbos, (try later be"h)
GS
Freleche Chanukah
let me continue my sermon:
You:
"according to what i said above, i must say that my comments about the internet weren't exactly on the mark. in fact one can be a perfect lubavitcher even if he doesn't watch TV, if he doesn't surf the internet, and if he doesn't listen to reggae music (i don't know however, if that is the ultimate goal). because the problem is the attitude, not the act. (i'll get to hamaaseh hu haikar in a moment). meaning, that one can be a perfect lubavitcher and listen to matisyahu music (or promote and think positively of it) since chabad isn't some set of obscure customs and rituals, but a theology and mindset".
Thank you for allowing me to be a L'r without listening to M', the question reemains:
Is the "mindset" of Chabad-Lubavitch Chassidus encourage or discourage this kind of music?
It appears to me (and i may be wrong) that they discourage. You know something: i think you should approach Reb Yoel and present him to listen to these kind of songs, and get back to us that he said that it's OK for a chassidisher bochur to listen and sing to this kind of music....
veayn eachshov hazmal klal lefalfel bedivrey havoy klal uklal...ulesayem:
the Rebbe in one of the years i believe 5746 ended of the sicho on chanukoh: to do the pulos of chanukoh מתוך יראת שמים!
berl: although what you have said makes sense בכללות it is not sufficient enough to deflect his claims: nochaltz is aware that the lubavitch theology doesn't preach overt M'ism or many of his other complaints. what "troubles" him is the fact that these problems seem to "only" exist in chabad, therefore leading him to believe that there is some flaw or defect within the chabad culture and/or the chabad leaders, which had caused this to happen. to say that chabad preaches differently ותו לא is sort of like putting one's head in the sand, and certainly does sound like one of those "Sermons" that nochaltz has described. not to mention that yoel kahn is one of foremost thinking and knowledgeable people in chassidus today, and i think that should give him some status of a lubavitcher. yes, he has issues.
Mashpia, you dancing a thin line of being close to my max tolerance for annoying comments. Get rid of fake email now. Stop useless chit chat. I don't have time to deal with this now but I will.
GV and FC
You:
"What I tried to get across the table is the tolerance and condoning for reggae music, that it's ok and not something upgefregt".
AS i said before i am highly doubtful that you name me of the chosheve mashpiim today (like Reb Yoel Reb Mendel Vechter REb Zalmen Gopin REb enachem Greenglaz, REb Pinye Korf, REb Yossi Paltiel, REb Melech Tzwibel, and other chodshuve L chassidishe yidden that agree with your view point. But you may be entitled to yuor opinion etc.
I'm happy that we shifted a little bit the the discussion from focusing andf attributing this discussion on "them" (whoever does not subsribe to the beleif in the world completely evil and "us").
NOw: before we continue this discussion i would like to make another point: it is milsseh depshiteh kebeaysseh bekusschoh that 30 years or 40 years ago chassidishe yidden prided themselves on the chassidishe values by saying that a chassidisher yid and bochur has disgust for certain inyoney olom hazeh, they are actually removed from it. They actually scorned those who are like us (aka "misnagsim") for their overly involvement in inyoney olom hazaeh deriding them about going to movies, being into their clothes, outside appearances and listening to giooyishe music.
Just an example that we hear from time to time today: that Reb Nisson would find it repugnant the idea of "mehadrin min hamdrin ice cream"!
and no we come and we hear that we have new values and standards: and acutally there are lelve of 'frumkeit" and "chassidishkeyt" that allow room for this.
Furthermore: before this message you even went further to subtly suggest that it iwas something positive to aspire and find the "positive in the world" and capitalize and harness the powers for the good etc. You rettracted a bit claiming that it's ok and one can be a lubavitcher even if he does not go to movies or listen to M.
Anothe introduction: I do nto have anything against Matisyahu; on teh cotnray i respect him as a person highly and i'm sure he has very good intentions and motivations and i do not want to suggest anything bad about him (in fact i was honored to be his host years ago a tayere yid and baal teshuva).
Nothwithsantding the above: it seem to me leand that there aere standards for chassidishkeyt and yiras shomayim and there are certain things that "ess passt nisht" for a chassidisher bochur and yungerman (similar to the 10 chassidsher passt nisht from the REbbe Mahrash - i do not rememember them now offhand).
YOu:
"Since Chassidus is a philosophy and ideology – not a set of rules and customs":
Me:
I humbly disagree: chassidus is also A WAY OF LIFE there is chassidishe "hanhogoh" there aer "darkey hachassidus"; true there may not be a chassidishe set of "rules" in the form of "shulchan oruch" but there is something akin the REbbe's statement that there are "Chassidishe Rabbonm" who take their lessons from nigleh detoreah and opnimiyoos hatorah and apply to every single sitation.
You:
"we cannot attempt to make generalizations about good and evil, hence, to say that reggae is good... is quite baseless, ...":
Me:
again i humbly disagree: Chassidus chabad especially Tanya has separated everything that is not geared towards kedusha as "evil" and not good. Hence : the derision chassidim always had at their mitnagedic counterparts for "enjoying" themsleves when it is not geared for Torah and kedushah or "Bechol derochecho doeyhoo".
You:
"avoda zara"
Me:
I don't have any clue about it. I was just responding to you to your response of dismissing Shneur's claim. If in fact he is right one has to go to a rov to find about it. And even if the Rov says it is fine, the REbbe told us to go a chassidihe rov and he may say that anything that originates from Az may perhaps be utterlky rejected and this too has a place in avodas hashem and does not deserve my or your derision.
You:
"and will ultimately originate from musical taste or religious zealotry".
Perhaps it wil originate from the teachings of chassidus or othyer valid forms in avoadas hashem that try to focus on thnigs that have a yiddishe connection and try to distance themselves from things that are "goyyish".
YOu:
"There exists a concept of goyishe music, eidel music, grob music; there also exists a concept of eidel clothing vs. grob clothing. I have never said that differences to not apply, but to say that everyone is obliged to conform to certain standards would be pushing the envelope. Fine and coarse, sensitive and though, as well as any other trait, isn't something that comes uniformly upon any group, for these are certain characteristics that come naturally with birth, and become more refined upon maturity, but it isn't mandated that all have the same traits. People have recognized and distinguished between different levels in knowledge and understandings, knowing that not every child can achieve the same in school academically, for some children are born with a better, sharper mind, while others aren't that bright. That's why different levels are set in school for different levels of comprehension, v'ein lhaarich bdovor haposhut. The same may be said about different levels of frumkeit and chassidishkeit".
Me: While i agree with tyou with regards to scholastic leve, i think that in yiras shomayim and specially in chassidus there is auniform common denominator standard and that relates to clothes (loy shinoo ess levushom) and other behaviours and hanhogoys.
While i agree with you, that there may be people who did not yet reach this level, and for that matter they may be better than me and others (for they struggle within their level and overcome more difficult taks than i and others) it nevertheless does not entitle us to lower the standrds and the bar as to what is within conformity with darkey hachassidus etc.
An example: although a "yoshev keranoss" has mroe nisyonos that a yoshev ohel and the yoshev ohel should feel "shuflus amitiss" towards him as expalined in tanya 31 it does not mean that we legitimize the adventures of the yoshev ohel who fails in succeeding his temtptaions keposhut.
You:
"The question now remains, can one be a lubavitcher while still maintaining lower standards in "yiras shomaim" or chassidishkeit?"
me:
If he aspires to go higher we can label him a L or a chossid.
You:
" Should we attempt to prohibit and ban things from lubavitchers",
for those who are brought up in houses that are educated with the chassdishe values of course we should not legitimze unsupervised usage of the internet.
For those: who either are not brought in those values or who for them have a difficulty in follwoing the system we should create another parallel system to help in their level to grow and enrich themselves.
You:
" Aren't most of the chassidshe niggunim based upon Russian folk songs, whose origin is from Russian peasants whose levels were lower than those of the Christian church?"
Me:
1- i don't beleive that any songs that we sing originate or were sung in the Christian Chruc.
2- The peasant songs: If chasssidshe yidden adopted them, then it means that they saw the termendous potential and energy that exist in those songs and therefore they became "nishapech" (loshon Rabeeynu ibn Shabos Vayushlach 5752) to kedusha.
I hope that we can continue this dialog and grow with it without resorting to name calling on each other or on other yidden.
GV
FC
Reb Mashpia,
and i thought that only the stremel's chassidim and the kiggel essers were watered down chassidism...
listen R. Mashpia although i'm for consevative chabad-chassidism but i cannot stomach reform-chabad chassdism... i hereby niminate you chief Rabbi of the Progressive-Habad-Hassdism....
R. Mashpia...IT'S ONLY A JOKE do not take seriously,
Freleche C
Bssuros Tayvays,
hi, frelechen zc,
You:
" nachaletz, kfi hanireh, you are getting me wrong".
Me:
I don't think so. i smell from far away a talmid of Reb Yoel with the biurim of "maasseh..." (though i do not claim to be on the level etc.... nevertheless the "grobe finger" with all that it involves eez nechkak in chush hareyach...
YOu
"... but if you will go through the concept, with a bit more thought and depth, you will see that this is not what i meant.
hashem had given us hands and feet for a reason. for had hashem wanted us to only philosophize and contemplate on the chabad (or jewish) ideology alone, he wouldn't have created man with hands and feet, and the truth is, that the entire creation of Z"A would be superfluous. considering that hashem had indeed decided to create this world, and that Malchus is the most important sefira "Nautz Techilasan B'Sofan", must (even according to philisophy alone) imply that one must DO and ACT, rather than think ואמור מעט ועשה הרבה. what is important, however, is why and for what purpose one performs a mitzvah or minhag. and that can make all the difference in the world".
Me:
Until here we agree and have no difference of opinion...
You:
"...understanding and comprehension of toras chabad b'chlal, and the rebbe's sichos b'frat.
you seem to assume that i hold that the ultimate lubavitcher is one that watches movies, listens to grob music and is very modern. i don't think so (while i don't think it is something that is in contrast to it either) and i think you should re-read my posts".
REb Mashpia i fail to see how this paragraph emerges and is a logical result from the above:
1) I NEVER (i think) claimed that *you* said or hold that the *ultimate* lubavitcher us one that watches movies listen to grobe music and wears fancy clothes,
2) You do seem to uphold though a position that it is no stira (contradiction) to the chabad theology and practiceas you write that it is not "in contrast" with it either.
I do not see this idea emerging from your introductory remarks about "maclhus" and maasseh and the ultimate importance of our being in this world of assiya that *therefore* it logically follows that watching movies is not a stira to the will of the Almighty and our presence in Assiya!
Now let me write my humble opinion: On a simple lelve that "maasse" and assiyoh and maclhus is (as you began your sermon - just joking- ) NOT a separate entity from chabad and chagas and nehi, but it is the CULMINATION AND "AMALGAMATION" of all those powers to be they become perfected by maasseh. After all, following the logic of your sermon (which i ascribe to) in the world of assiyoh too Hashem hasn'e created us with hands and feet only, but with heads and heart and liver etc. with all that encompasses and obviously they serve a purpose in the totality of the Divine Will and in the Destiny "Willed" by Him in "machashovoh hakdumoh Deak veoyd.
So: Maasseh is supposed to incoroporate within it and perfect all the eperiences of chabad chagas nehi and ultimately then we trigger the noutz techilosson.
IN simple words: the person is a koymoh shlemoh, and just as we canot divorce the hands and feet from the body so too (al achas kamoh vekamoh) we cannot divorce and exclude our heads and hearts from the ultimate WIll.
Therefore it follows, that the teachings of our Rebbe do not come to "change" and "Reform" (pun inteded - just joking-) one iota from the previous teachings of earlier Rebbeyim but it comes to incorporate those teachings to perfect them to bring to higher level of Assiyoh where noutz techilosson bessofon, but chas vesholom cv to say that there is a change since "hatorah hazoh loy tihye muchlefess" and Hatorah Hooh Nitzchiss.
3) IN addition: there are many of the things in movies vekayotzey that borders on dvorim hoassurim. i'm sure you did not mean to imply that these too are part of "malchus' plan and those are certainly "Assurim and kshurim" bgimmel kliposs hatmeos legomri".
You:
"...savor the donuts!"
Me
Vechen Lemar!
i would also appreciate if someone could explain much of the terms that i have placed in rather cryptic terms and abbreviations, as this isn't just an "insiders" discussion, but something fundamental to chassidus, and ultimately, judaism.
You:
"(although i know that reb yoel understands chassidus better than 95% of the people that i know)"
Me:
Why not 99% or 100% people tha tyou know?
YOu:
" this is a fact, ask anybody that knows me"
me:
Whom should i ask?
YOu:
"a brief synopsis of the above: If hashem wanted us to be philosophers and comprehend the kavanah pnimis with chochma alone, he would have only created the intellectual sefiros and realms, not needing and creating the midos and malchus. since hashem had done so (and nautz...) points to the fact that our ultimate goal is Maaseh B'poel. AD KAAN"
me:
Understood.
YOu:
"but what is maaseh b'poel, and why is it so valued by hashem, and if maaseh b'poel is the ultimate purpose, then why had hashem created intellect and emotions? and if we were to do something with a feel and zest, then let us only have emotions. what is the need for mochin, especially when it is what makes a person unique? (for animals also have some form of emotions). to understand this,"
Me:
let me see, many questions: 1) what is maasse, 2)why masse? 3) if maase is the ultimate, why mochin and midos, 4) if we do with zest and emotions, why the need for mochin?
YOu:
"we may ask another question: what is so special about the jewish nation, and why have they been chosen to perform the mitzvos, or why have people specifically been chosen to make a dirah b'tachtonim. why did there need to be the creation of other elements - aside from domem, which would accomplish and reach hashem's desires (kvayachol). wouldn't it have sufficed to have metzius gashmi (such as domem) which is b'ein aroch to the ruchni (since the domem doesn't have any visible life to it)".
me:
you pose another question: why is there a need for other elements aside from the lowest (domem), since the kavono is accomplished by the lowest bein aroich to the most ruchni?
YOu:
"The answer lies in the question, for the domem (inanimate) isn't the furthest thing from g-d, and niether is the physical realm. the physical realm, although it isn't as powerful and omniscient as it's spiritual counterparts, still wouldn't be of a "tachtonim" or "helem" of g-dliness, since the domem doesn't claim it's own existence, and doesn't claim to have self independence. in other words, the domem is not a metzius or private entity, but it rather part of a chain. the same is with the animal vechulu. but the human body carries and is distinctly different, for it encompasses a different world, a different chain per se, this is one of the reasons that man is referred to as olam katan, and m'bsorai echzeh elokah, for the person is another hishtalshelus, another realm and existence".
Me:
Bekitzur: The human kind is a greater "tachtoyn" for he claims his own existence and metzius.
You:
"now we can understand why the person is the ultimate dirah b'tachtonim, for the person is the ultimate tachton for he does not recognize or feel elokus, i.e. he doesn't feel it's significance and importance thereof, to make him change his life and his way of living and make him link and complete the 'chain'. for although he does recognize and acknowledge the existence of a supreme and superior omniscient deity, it would not make a difference to him. this trait and characteristic is only possible in the human brain, for the animal cannot comprehend and recognize another being, or any being for that matter, it doesn't see its own chain or existence (it doesn't see any existence, only the existence of it's food and drink chu')".
Me:
Continued elaboration how the humankind is the lowest tachton who does not feel the need and importance of elokusto make him change.
you:
"We can now safely assume that the chiddush and distinctiveness of this world lies clearly in the human mind, i.e. the realm of human intellect. the ultimate dirah b'tachtonim is when one comprehends -with his own human intellect - the superiority and reign of the heavenly king, hakadosh boruch hu.
v'ein chochom kba'al nissayon".
Me: therefore you claim that the chidush is when the human *mind* comprehneds the rign of hkb"h.
you:
"but if someone has decided to perform the mitzvos out of his own will, or own superiority, then he is not accomplishing much (only the fact that his will was in mitzvos and not something else, which would only affect the nh"y of the body) the same can be said about the temimusdike yidden who only have their chagas elevated. (although tmimusdike yidden are another story which i shall leave for another occasion)".
me:
therefore you claim that the performance of mtizvos are performedwhen the "mochin" recognizes the rign of hashem and not when he does the mitzvoh out of his own superiority or only with some parts of his being (chagas)...
YOu conclude your lines of reasonings:
"now let me finnish my own chain of posts. when one does a mitzvah, or when one does any act, be it religious or mundane, there is always some kind of purpose and goal underlying even the most mundane act. for some, when they are davening, shockeling, and after that, trashing all the kelipos chu', it can be no more than a very subtle campaign of self promotion or immaturity i.e. false religious zealotry, while it is very possible that one who is doing something trivial, which might be ossur or treif according to many, but is being done out of love and recognition (not of himself and his reightousness but) of hashem and his torah, and his creation - oha"z, will tip the scale and bring moshiach tzidkeinu bimheira byameinu".
me:
You onclude by saying that therefore one can "Shuckle" in davening but it's self-promotion and not out of love and recognition of Hashem whereas someone does something trivial out of love he fulfills the will of hashem and tips the scale for the coming of moshiach.
I think i gathered your thoughts.
Lots of it i remember in chassidus. nice sermon and treatise and essay.
Vehineh, with regards to the defintion of "Tachton": i don't think that this is the *only* way in which is explained and described in chassidus, that the "mochin" is the tachton and that the human is the "Tacghton" (when this term is used -as opposed to when "yitosh kodomoch" etc.) i beleive that many times it is explained kipshutoy, the tachtoyn being the koach hoassiyoh and the effect in the world outside thepwern "chelkoy beoylom" or the "nefesh habahamiss" with the animalistic tendencies, where, although, also the sechel of the nefesh habehamiss is considered to be the bahami etc. yet, bepashtuss the bahami and tachtoyn is the lowest part of that entity. (although i do not deny remembering written that annulying one's intellect is in a certain way a higher level of bittul which requires to be mevatel a greater metzius and yesh, nevertheless in general it is described in different terms and there is chain of events where mochin higher and then midos and then nehi and malchus maasse kpshutoy).
with regards to the meaning and significance of performance of mitzvos: i think we are in sync that this is ikor kol hoikrim that one seerves Hasehm because of Hashem's will not because one's own will (even the tendency and inclination of middos or even mochin and chochmoh and "less machshovoh tfissoh bey" etc.) and where some mashpiim tell us that in likutey torah the AR writes somewhere that "mitzvas asseh" means doing what does NOT want to do; mitzvas loy taasse means: not doing what one WANTS to do!
and i do believe tha tsome of what you write in meaning of "maasse" is mentioned as it is meloshon "meassin al hatzkoh" of one forcing oneslef to do the mitzvah etc.
Now: all this nowithstanding, does not negate another simple perspective where maasse is guided and inspired and fed by mochin.
or another simple perspective taught to us in the begining of tanya ch. 4 (which we learn behashgocho protis these days) that one's "chabad shebnafshoy' is enclothed in hasogas pardess, and the midos yiroh and ahava are enlothed in the performance of the mitzvos "bkiyum hamitzvos BEMAASSE" and one cannot perform in action "beemess" unless he loves hashem , and yes then he can cleave to Him through the performance of the mitzvos...or through learning torah he connects himself to Hashem so on and so forth...so many ideas that are based on these simple and powerful chapters of tanya that one cannot just ignore these ideas which account for the idea that olom hoassiyoh is a "koymoh shleymoh" and everything that exists there is to utilized for avodas hashem, and aissoyoh and maasse is the aggllameration of all these connectionsof every single partof metzius and existence with hashem (and yes through doing for the will of hashem)...
but ultimately and ultimately....despite the derision of chukling in davening for ulterior mitoves etc etc. i fail to see how this got to with the price of tea in china: whether "trivial" involves "grobe" things (goyishe music goyishe levushim etc)... after all if these things are "yesh" and "metzius" (contrary to the will of hAshem or it involves inyonim bahamim mamesh) it is not in the scheme of things related to the will of hashem...and it is contrary to acceptance of the "reign of hashem" when one ascertains part of the existence for one's own desires and will unrelated to the will of hashem etc. (out of "love' which is also love for himself etc. etc.)
enough of my rambling and sermopnizing, but lemaasseh, and i don't want to sound harsh...btu please bear with me:
i think the "dreyen mit die grobbe finger" and twist it and twist and twist led to the distortion of dvorim pshtutim:
for instance and lemoshol beolmoh
the derision and putting down of people shuckling in davening being people weho are doing out "idolatrous zealotry" and the infatiuation with this idea to an extent exxageration led to the distortion of the senses
i think i failed to end of the message:
distortion of the senses to an extent that "goyishe music" whendone out of "love" is hashem's will in maasseh...although it is bahamiss kipshutoy and grobe (meanign that it calls out more to one's own desires and feelings and it is nto done as part of mitzvaoh "bechol derochecho deyhu" know Him not one's own desires
...yet when he chuckles and davens he is "idolatrous zealot"?!? yetzivoh bearoh vegiyoroh bishmey shamtyoh?! and this is normal?
we are not talknig about "tmimoosdik' as you mentioned -that is another kettle of fish-; we are talking about "grobe" zachen (even if they are beheter), and you claim that the REbbe's chasidus concludes that that is not stiredik to the concept of "maasseh' the way you describe it! but the "chukling in davening" is the performance of own promotion!?
again be mochel...this is where one exxagerates and turns day into night and night into day!
I challenge you to show me a clear statement of the REbbe that expresses your opinion -again not a treatise and concept where you interpret that the result is that "gopyishe music" is higher than "cghukling" for one's promotion!
This is where i tihnk i feel humbly that people have distorted the messages and lessonsof chassidus and the Rebbe and lean"d is a dagerous slippery slore and it unfortunately explains many negative phenomenom of our day....
vees vohev bessufoh...
Идут Буренин и Суворин,
Их плач о покойнике непритворен.
Идут хлебопеки и квартирьеры,
Хвалят покойника манеры.
and finally,
Идут гг. офицеры по два в ряд,
О новой вакансии говорят.
YOu:
as a side question: what made you become a "misnaged"(or are you one of those old-timers...)
As far as i'm concerned i'm the chossid and you are the "misnaged"...
everything is in the eye of the beholder...you can calaim that you are "open" but closed minded and "porush" and smug towards many people..more than r chayim in the story..and you can have people who claim to be "bessimcho" but put a knife in the guys back....
it is certainly misnagdish in the terms spoken in the past decades that "they" M were engaged in being involved in goyishe behaviour while C...
Along the same lines… Lipa Schmeltzer's new CD has recently been banned by some rabanim for being too 'goyish' sounding. Some of his songs are indeed based on non-jewish songs, but he says they've been completely revised and adapted into Yiddish, comic niggunim. Take "Abi Mileibt"- his latest hit. It's based on a Zulu song from the animated movie The Lion King, where a wild hog sings to a weasel about a lion sleeping in the jungle. Apparently this is a big problem. Could it be that the Zulu's use similar chants during idol worship? Is it that the source material comes from, dare I say the word, film? Some say it's the jazzy nature of the tunes that spells trouble. Whatever the reason may be, it would be dangerous to ignore the threat that Lipa Shmeltzer and his music pose to traditional Judaism!!!
sorry for going off track, but i think lipa schmeltzer is the best thing to come to the frum community. it makes yiddish and chassidim sound cool (on the lines of what schneur said above).
iv'e heard that the klausenberger threw his CD on the floor when he was presented with it.
kara, i don't know what "traditional judaism" is in your mind, and what kind of a threat does it pose? lipa's music isn't that goyish as some other singers which are accepted amongst many circles (oif simches, MBD, YBC....) and will only help people stay with it - because of his lyrics and his yiddish (although "abi mleibt" is a bit pointless). read my posts above, most of the chassidishe niggunim today were adapted from the surrounding cultures, that's why sephardic songs are more yemenite and arabic, and ashkenazi songs more in resemblance to russian and polish folk songs and marches. perhaps the tunes then were more "eidel" and refine, while now the style is coarse and "grub". but isn't it the same with personality? if we want to adapt to a more refined and traditional - or "bittuldike" - way of life, shouldn't we start with our own characters and thinking process? the chassidim of old didn't listen to pop music, not because they had iskafya, but because they weren't interested. (sorry for sermonizing)
it would be dangerous to ignore the threat that Lipa Shmeltzer and his music pose to traditional Judaism!!!
Sarcasm is the key word here. I was trying to point out the absurdity of posing Matisyahu as the latest emunah threat because of the 'goyishness' of reggea, similar to saying that Lipa is goyish. I guess it isn't that absurd because you thought I was serious. How very sad...
lipa is the best singer in the world i love him even thogh his songs are goyish
While only my father is Jewish, I still feel an sense of shame and disappointment when a Jew does something shameful.
Over and over again when the sacred, mixes with the profane, it is the sacred that suffers. An example in the goyisher world is "Christian rap". The vulgarness of rap combines with the "sanctity" of Christianity and vulgarizes Christianity.
Jews shouldn't be vulgarizing Torah, as then the message of Torah will be vulgarized. If Jews are supposed to be setting the example for the goyim, they shouldn't be taking the worst from the goyim and mixing it with the Torah.
While I think it is bad enough when Reform Jews promote things that are vulgar, (i.e.: abortion, hip-hop music), I am actually scandalized that a Hasid would do the same thing!
It's Chilul HaShem
whats the different to matisyou and many shluchim today?
how many shluchim today open a sefer?how many shluchim opened a sefer within the past 5 years! even in yeshiva they never learnt, never farbengen like chassidim!
today chabad has changed nothing to what it was in the past!
some shluchim today work less and sleep in all day, but they are on shlichus and we as anash need to support them????????????????
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