mentalblog.com comments:
Olmert is a rosha. He says the army was against the compromise, but in reality he was. He could have avoided all the boodshed. Now the blood is on his head.
The "moving of the buildings" is esoteric. Bringing that story and comparing it to COURT decisions is demagoguery.
Happy to hear that "אית דין ואית דיין" in Jerusalem.
what do you mean einikle?
This is what I mean, Tzemach:
Demagogy includes the bringing of unrelated facts that sound in favor of the speaker's agenda, but they are only marginally (if at all) related to the agenda.
I sense you want to prove to us that the authorities in Israel are anti-settlers no matter what. Instead of sticking with the main issue, which is the evacuation, you chose instead to share with us some very esoteric desicion, and whats even worse is that you dared to compare some hasty decision, made by government officials, to court decisions.
i don't understand you.
Could you say what exactly is it that you dont understand or is it the whole thing?
the whole thing, make your point again please.
Ok, I'll try.
I'm sure you understand that all that happened today in Amona didnt happen because of Olmerts decision not to enable the moving of the buildings to Ofra. Even in such a case, the teenage settlers would have protested violently against the lawful destruction of settler buildings on private Palestinian owned land. Therefore, I see the decision not to enable the moving of the buildings as out of context. I must then suppose that it was brought by you only for reasons of demagogy.
Thats it! I rest my case.
einikel, what if that was not a "private land". Would that still be a demagoguery?
einikel, who are you? Chabad, Satmar, Hiloni, etc?
Yes, because you are trying to prove your point (that Olmert is mistreating the settlers in his decision {to go on with the high court decision} to evacuate that property) by bringing a very esoteric story (Olmerts refusal to enable the moving of the building).
"esoteric story"? it was the main line of the Jpost reporting. What are you drinking?
Who am I? Hmm... Well, many people would say I'm a Jew, some would even consider me as a lubavitcher, and people close to me would say that I am an Apikoyres. I cant say anyone of these groups of people are wrong about me.
do you live in the land?
It was the main line of ONE of the Jpost reportings about Amona. Its esoteric when you look at the big picture.
No, I do not live in the land.
TA - great photo set. And I liked your first title (not sure if it was intentional), that of "nothing".
With the election of Hamas the Israeli government does this? For what? NOTHING. Power, control, to draw blood for no reason. Do you know what it takes to build in the Shomron? How many permits, approvals, etc? Yet, because they had 7 and not 8, they decided retroactively that it's illegal.
Private PA lands? Ha! Go back 120 years and it's all the Sultan's land from the Ottoman's. Sorry, rental only, no purchasing. Until the Jew's arrive and turn it in to something, bring they're blessing with them. Then it's desired land and someone show's up with a title to prove it.
How about Chevron? Jewish deed in hand for 130 years, but since the Jew's were chased off, murdered in '29 and the area was occupied by the Arab's from 30-200, it's their's, right? Right? Right?
Some how, one way or the other, it's always theirs, never ours. Here's a fact for you, over 30% of Gaza city is owned by the JNF, title and everything from the Ottoman's and the British! Doesn't matter does it?
The ownership history is history. Just like it is regarding Palestinian houses and lands in Tel Aviv, Yafo, Haifa etc. If you want to make conclusions from history, look at history as a whole.
http://www.cyberspain.com/passio.../jpgs/
mayo2.jpg
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TA ... I don't understand your sudden proclivity for discussion with einikel. Just brand him an idiot and go on!
I don't know who einikel is but nothing he says here makes any sense.
There ARE no Arab houses in Tel Aviv. 90 years ago, Tel Aviv didn't even exist. The Jews started building on the sand dunes outside the tiny port of Yaffo and that became known as Tel Aviv. Eventually it grew much much larger than Yaffo itself and swallowed it.
On Rechov Trumpeldor, in central TA, across the street from the old Yeshivat Tel Aviv, the old cemetery (which was once on the outskirts of the city but is now at it's center) has graves of Jews who were slaughtered in the 1920's by Arab terrorists from Yaffo. No Arabs lived in TA at the time. Not one. They came from Yaffo, next door, to slaughter Jews - under the watchful eye of the British Occupation Forces.
Arab murderers sneaking in from nearby villages were not restricted to Tel Aviv, nor to Chevron, nor to Jerusalem, Netanya, Haifa, Be'er Sheva, Rehovot, etc. Nor were these bloodthirsty attacks by Arabs restricted to the "first" Initifada, nor the next, nor the 1920's, nor the 1980's. It's been like this for centuries, and wherever Arabs have lived with others.
The Pogrom today was very clearly an attack by the Israeli government on Jewish villagers who are politically inconvenient. (I avoid the term "settlers" - how are they different from Arab villagers???) The police were carefully chosen by their willingness and desire to beat up frummies. The TV pictures clearly show almost ALL of the violence was committed by the riot police force and not by the unarmed teenage protesters.
One 15 year old, still unconscious in hospital, was being visited tonight by his anxious parents when a policeman at the hospital told the father that he wished his son would have been killed today. The father angrily demanded that the policeman identify himself. Several other policemen then attacked the father, dragging him away from the offending officer who walked away, unidentified.
This was all recorded and shown on the TV news tonight.
The HATE that PERES and SHARON have developed against Jewish villagers, especially DATI JEWS - and all only for personal political gain - is now drawing blood. With Olmert's interim government facing criticism from all the other parties and becoming increasingly desparate, expect more of this for-political-profit violence.
If the pictures we saw on TV in Israel would have been shot in the USA, there would be riots in major cities across the USA, lots of cops would be up on attempted murder charges and top brass would be out of office by the end of the week.
When the government here feels threatened, it attacks the citizenry. This is "Democracy", Middle Eastern style. Israel is now
much more like Syria and Egypt than Britain and the USA.
The handful of houses in Amona were illegal in precisely the same way that hundreds of Bedouin homes in the Negev are illegal.
If the government would mass thousands of police, armed soldiers and bulldozers against the Bedouin the way they did against Jews today in Amona, the entire Middle East together with the UN would be up in arms. But Jews are always an easier target - even for Jewish thugs like Olmert's goons today.
I fear that Jews have gotten tired of being victimized, even in their own homes. It may get much uglier - and soon.
So many preachers to the choir!
The fact of the matter is that most Israelis agree to give up land for peace and the more the radical right pushes for a civil war the more I agree with the sane majority.
Just curious what would happen in the U.S. if a priest would publicly say that one should not rent houses to yidden.Remember that before you attack the Israeli goverment for indicting a rabbi who talked before he thought
Having been on the wrong side of one of those horses (missed me, thank G-d) and involved in several protests in Jerusalem and one near Shechem (all in 1994-5), I know something about the potential for police brutality.
But I also know something else. If any group had done what these settlers did, stockpiling clubs, rocks, cement blocks, etc., had attacked police and police property, and behaved in the way those settlers did in any major city in the US or Europe, you would have just as many, in fact, probably many more, injuries and perhaps even a few deaths. (I have been involved in major protests in Europe and in several US and Canadian cities, and have direct experience with police.)
There is no excuse for what those 'protesters' did. It was flat out wrong. It also hurt their cause immeasurably.(See the latest public opinion polls from Israel.)
Israel will withdraw from much of the West Bank, in large part because the alternative has now been made clear. Just as Israelis do not want to live with Hamas, etc., they do not want to live with the Hilltop Youth, their parents and especially their rabbis. So, Israelis will likely now give away more rather than less, in order to ensure the destruction of settler culture.
Anarchy has a price. The Jews of the shtachim are about to pay it.
I should also add that the restraint shown by the army in the Gaza disengagement can be attributed in part to Sharon, who has personal affection for both the settlers and the settlements themselves.
Olmert most likely does not, and that may have effected yesterday's events.
But before you start calling Olmert evil, remember this: Throw a rock a Chicago or New York cop and you will see a reaction at least as strong as what you saw in Amona.
shmarya the "hasam" or riot police charged the crowds first. who was the crowd? check out the pictures, young girls and boys. most below the age of 18. they were prepared to beat and trained to destroy.the settlers are the jews of israel. the govt. in lock step with the courts, the media and police have consolidated power. the settlers are the tool that this police state uses. everybody hates the settlers. we're the conscious. when you want to destroy morality you destroy your conscious first. ther3fore destroy the "settlers".
Somehow the hundreds of reporters, cameramen, and media support people missed this telling 'fact.'
Who threw the first stone? The first cement block? Who stockpiled stones and club? Who pre-made lightbulbs filled with paint and other chemicals?
The fact is settlers – especially the youth born in Samaria – have no real understanding of the political process, of democracy or of non-violent protest.
They wanted a war – and said so before the evacuation of Amona began. And they got one.
The only stratigic purpose (assuming there actually is one) to this war would be to energize the right wing base just before the elections. And that may have been the case.
But, as I wrote above, Israel has learned its lesson. You can kiss most of the shtachim goodbye.
not yet my dear not yet. the war has just begun,and miles to go before we sleep.
"the war has just begun…"
That says it all in a nutshell. You will lose this war much more quickly and decisively than you imagine.
You missed another fact: many of the protesters at Amona are refugees from Gush Katif. In the same way that some accuse Pres. Bush of manufacturing terrorists by invading Iraq, so PM Sharon has manufactured a violent resistance by his extraordinarily violent destruction of people's homes and livlihoods.
Some members of the security forces (IDF and police) now question their identification with the anti-Jewish trend among their commanders.
Some members of the public now question their identification with the non-Jewish state of Israel.
This is the stuff that civil wars are made of.
And the pandering to international public opinion in expelling Jews, both dead and alive, and promptly destroying all trace of there ever having been a Jewish Community in Aza - this may yet be the downfall of the Zionist experiment....
"And the pandering to international public opinion in expelling Jews, both dead and alive, and promptly destroying all trace of there ever having been a Jewish Community in Aza - this may yet be the downfall of the Zionist experiment...."
Any downfall can be directly traced to those rabbis who elevated settling the stachim over outreach to secular Israelis.
But you are wrong. The Zionist state will not crumble because of this, but the settler movement and all it stands for will.
You aren't making sense. What does Kiruv have to do with a legitimate claim to homeland????
The bottom line is that the Israeli govt has, in it's infinite and suicidal stupidity, created a Hamastan hardly a few miles from the main airport near Lod. This Hamastan Palestinean state claims ALL of Eretz Yisrael and demands rights for Moslems throughout. Suceeding Israeli govts have responded to IslamoFascist totalitarian claims by giving the PLO/Fatah/PA/HAMAS/AL-Qaeda/WhoeverComesNext with more and more territory, money and weapons. Israel not only relinquishes claims to Eretz Yisrael, it even clears the Holy Islamic Soil (tm) making it Judenrein, removes all Jewish homes, dislocates children and doesn't even let the dead lie in peace.
You are wrong. When the Zionist state crumbles, it won't be because of Israeli villagers; it will be because of the post-Zionist post-Jewish Israelis who have refused to learn from history.
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