mentalblog.com comments:
TA,
The word 'many' should be 'nary'. In other words, no specific effort is made to commemorate these kedoshim. interestingly, R' Nachman chose to be buried in Uman precisely because it was the place where Jews were massacared by the Haidmacks.
ok
Lipowitzer - amita shel Tere. Yasher Koach gadol.
You have comforted me.
The best comments I have seen here !
Excellent post!
Baruch Hashem I haven't missed the graves of the Kedoshim I mourn and am constantly involved in helping to restore them.
Schneur,
I am happy to see people still care.
A statistic:
There are close to 20,000 cemeteries throughout Europe. Many are in the most terrible of conditions.
P.S.
Tzemach, the one in Druya is in relatively good condition and has undergone lots of repair jobs, still much to be done.
I was first (and last) at the Tzion in Uman in 1979. I was blown away by the old cemetery on the hill above the river about a mile from Reb Nachman. I stumbled upon it by chance and was profoundly moved. For me it was an experience that stirred me more than Reb Nachman’s Tzion.
I was taking to my aunt two weeks ago. She is in Moscow and she reminded me about a relative in Canada who actually crawled from the mass grave during the war as a teenager after being buried "alive", leaving behind in the grave his whole family…
Interesting. I have a similar story with 4 relatives who escaped from the mass grave in Miory.
Hashem Yinkom Damam.
Omein!
TA,
just e-mailed you a pic.
THe large elm marks the mass grave of the jews of lipovetz. There's a marker in russian' here were murdered russian citizens by the nazi-fascists 12.?.1941'
The grave is marked by an elevation. Jewish babies were smashed against this tree before being thrown in. HYD.
"In the case of Lubavitch there has not even been an attempt to locate the mass grave of the 2,000 Jews of the Lubavitch ghetto and mark it accordingly".
I live in Russia and have been to Lubavitch many times with groups, it never happened that the group also didn’t go the Mass grave in Lubavitch to say Mishnayos, Tehilim and even say Kaddish if their was a Minyan.
The mass grave is clearly marked and has an iron fence around it.
A Gan Israel summer camp that visits every summer comes every year to pick out weeds and make sure it looks respectable and clean , it has been done I know for the last ten years.
Sadly, many find it hard to relate to visiting mass graves -having been to many myself (Warsaw, Majdanek, Lublin, 9 Fort, Paneriai) I have noticed how difficult it is for others to relate to the scene at hand . . .
People too often choose to insulate themselves from what makes them uncomfortable.
Every time I visit a Cemetery, I often fill odd, like a tacky tourist, skipping hundreds nay thousands of others for only the "big sites" as it where.
Lipovitzer: You are right. Only a very short distance from the Ohel in Anapol (in the same cemetery) is a large mass grave from the Holocaust.
Menachem,
Could you please post a picture of the kever achim?
I've never been to Lubavitch and my comments on the countless reports of Temimim, shluchim and rabbonim that post pictures of trudging through the blotte in a horse drawn wagon but have yet to see a picture of a visit to the mass grave. It's refreshing to be wrong, though.
mottel,
My point exactly. It's not a question of comfort. It's a question of duty. Feelling as a part in the stream of Jewish history, suffering, experience.
MIB, where is Druisk? I thought it was in Poland. And why "plach Vilno" this doesn't make sense for Dryua or Mior?
ok Vilno might make sense, the biggest closest city if you don't count Riga.
Sometimes I wonder . . . .
what would be a better use of the money - to fix up the graves of those who nobody visits
-or to use that money to help their descendants etc.
The question, however, is only theoretical, for as of now so much money is wasted on useless things that any place that it is given is good.
I find it hard to believe that a small hamlet like Lubavitch had a ghetto. The Nazis never bothered hoarding Jews from small towns into their own little Ghettos. They were either marched out to the woods and shot, or they were transported to larger towns where they were "housed" in Ghettos there.
Mottel: I had the same thought after returning from visiting the hidden mass grave in Sudilkov, Ukraine.
This quote from the Lubavitcher Rebbe helped answer my question:
http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/2...-
monuments.html
As for the Sudilkov mass grave, I wrote more about it here:
http://asimplejew.blogspot.com/2...-be-
solved.html
Hirshel,
I found the information on the lubavitch Ghetto in the Encyclopeida Judaica. Many small towns Russia had them. They often lasted but a few days or so till liquidation.
Mottel,
I've been to Russia once since emmigrating in 1979. I made it a point, along with another bochur, to visit our ancestoral homes. The group of bochurim we traveled with couldn't care less about the history of the Jews in the Shtetlach, the mass graves ect. Other than how it related to Lubavitch history.
I don't think this is unique to Lubavitch, but rather shows of a larger black hole in the phsyche of the present day charei world. On your point of monuments. You're right but you don't get it. See the post of Menachem from Russia and you will see what the attitude should be.
On a side note, for those interested in knowing more about the past and present state of the Shtetlach, see Miriam Weiner Excellent book Routes to Roots. Alot of pictures, reference materials ect.
TA, the last name of the relative in Canada who crawled away from the mass grave -- was it Kaufman?
lipovitzer,
I agree with everything you wrote on the subject. As to the charedi seeming disinterest in holocausting, IMHO, it is a reaction to the “Religion of Holocaust Remembrance” that has all but replaced Judaism for the Jewish-establishment-types.
The said truth is that the Reform and Haskoloh movements had a very destructive impact on Judaism. It morphed into Orthodox Judaism and has not recovered from the defensive posture it took in the 19th century. Much of what we do is determined not simply by what is right, but by what is “not like the freier do.”
Please no excuses for the general Charedi sensitivity to the Churban.
Secular Jews are highly intelletual, does that mean that Charedim stopped studying. Secular Jews are very much into business , pray tell me Berl did Charedim cease to "handel" or do business.Reform and Conservative Jews build large and fancy edifices, that does not stop Chabad from doing the same.
There are serious theological reasons for this , and perhaps we should discus them someday.
By the way for all the yers that week after week I purchased and read in toto KFAR CHABAD 1982- 1994 vead bichlal --- I never saw even one article about the Holocaust in KFAR CHABAD magazine.
After 1994 things loosened up a tad .
the only article I recall was a response to a bitter attack by Chaike Grossman MK against the rebbe and believe or not the rebbe's response was very defensive perhaps because she was a partisan or maybe he knew she was correct.But in general the Holocaust including its Lubavitcher victims were never mentioned.I of course know why.
Previous comment should read Lack of sensitivity.
berl, unfortunately this theory does not seem to hold, in light of the fact these same bochrim exhibit no less interest in how the Knicks are doing, in the name of not being like the freie. It seems to be pure lack of sensitivity to things Jewish, certainly things with no Lubavitch connection.
It is not an isolated phenomenon. There is almost a pride in ignorance of things that are just standard Jewish, be it hashkofo, history or whatever else. This is the root of the "no other authority" problems that Dispel wrote about a long while ago.
Back in my days in Israel, there would be bochrim that would pride themselves on not going to the Kosel. This is absurd; whatever pity we had as Chassidim towards the Yerushalmim that whose Judaism consisted of Kosel worship had nothing to do with this. As I remember someone saying at the time, one whose "hiskashrus" is threatened by going to the Kosel has a major problem with his hiskashrus (as well as a few other things)...
schneur, that was one of the most ridiculous comments ever posted on this blog!
1. I did NOT AT ALL imply that the behavior was correct/excusable.
2. I was referring to issues that pertain to theology. I, too, understand that the chareidi Jews do not refrain from shitting simply because their secular brethren are suspect of occasionally doing the same.
How about pishing? 8)
770 bochur, I do not disagree with anything you wrote here.
Shneur,
you'd be curious to know that BM ran a lenghty series of articles on "lubavitch during the Holocaust" almost as a way to defend the establishment.
I found it alos ironic that COL posted the Yad Vashem link to the searchable database as a way'to find lubavitchers who died during the holocaust'.
Berl,
The fact is Artscroll published three volumes on the Jewish communities in pre-war Europe as well as a large collection of stories and memoires for adults and children, though I would doubt that litvishe bochurim have less apathy for things goneby than their lubavitcher counterparts.
Berl. After you finish sitting, answer my question about Kefar Chabad magazine .Pretty please.
"sitting"? that must be a litvish version :)
I have no clue about Kefar Chabad magazine Holocaust policy. Why don't you enlighten us...
As to the general charedi unwillingness to participate in secular-type Holocaust remembrance events - it is simply undeniable. Care to site a list of gedeilim that endorsed the Yom Hoshoa uchedeime? (And pleeease do not give me the "nissan" answer - another day could have easily been chosen for this.)
hAshoa
Binyomin, I think the name is Gamerov, my grandmother’s name but I will ask my aunt in Moscow.
The lack of interest stems form ignorance in general -they bochurim who do not care to know anything unconnected to Lubavitch are the ones who knew little about Lubavitch history itself.
In defense of our kvutza, a third or so of the group have an extensive knowledge of the Holocaust, with the majority of the rest an interest to learn more.
Sof kol sof, we are the only true memorial to the shoah. We are the living memorial, eternal memorial.
Monuments fade and chip away, a generations of Jews dedicated to live for what our father died for will never fade away.
Without jumping into the middle of this issue, I did always find it surprising that as a talmid in Chabad Meysdeis we heard a lot about Communism, but hardly a word about WW2.
I have a number of thoughts about this, but they are not that important - the point is that it was an odd fact.
In contrast, in other kreizin that I have spent time, the war was always a prime topic of interest and concern. (Yes I know, many reasons for this are self-evident).
We focus on what we know, you don't find a big stress on the Holocaust amongst sf'ardim either.
Lubavitch, when compared to other groups (Alexander, Ger etc.) did not go through the same losses, hy"d, the camps etc.
Mah Shain Kain with Communism which Lubavitch was forced to fight head on.
Today Druysk, Druya and Miory are in Belarus. The whole area though, was part of Poland between WWI & WWII.
Culturally though it was considered Latvia.
HOW many frum yiden in Europe were mekusher to Reyatz at the outbreak of ww2? and how many of those perished? this funny number will answer evrything ,
btw lubavitch even today never talks about losses it only gains
Does anyone here where one can find a list thats states the towns in Europe where there are mas graves?
MIB, this sounds like a Yad Vshem project. Have you asked them, perhaps they can take this research on?
I have gone through some of the information at Yad Vashem, but they have yet to actually make a comprehensive list of the mass graves and the circumstances surrounding each case.
When I was in Vinitsa I met A Jewish women who was the head of the local archive. She showed me a document written by russian army teams that examined the mass graves and took testimony of the local inhabitants. I have since discovered that she has moved to Israel and reference to this information appears in Miriam Weiner's Routes to Roots". It appears the above information has since been published though i don't have the exact information. MW has a website with the above name. The above list was, I think, only for the Vinnitsa oblast.
MIB, you are doing a tremendously important work. Let us know how we can help.
By the way, the title of the book is 'jewish roots in the ukraine and moldova', it's out of print, though she has another one on poland. MIB, I second TA. This is not about building marble edifices at the price of building Yeshivos. This is about having a real sense of self, one's past and giving it over to our children.
I am familiar with Weiner's book; it contains a lot of important data on the killing squads and mass graves. Yet as Lipovitzer said, it is limited geographically speaking.
Lately, in Poland a new problem has arose where some Jews claiming to represent the Kehila have been trying to sell cemetery land for considerable sums. B'H, they are being stopped.
The entire eastern Europe is a graceyard . . .there wasn't a shtetl left untouched.
graveyard even
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