mentalblog.com comments:
STOP the Loshon Hora, It's NOT for the families...!!!!
and I am en EX fried out Lubab.
I will continue to speak on subjects that I find interesting. If you have something positive to contribute, please do. And also use some other name please, Dovid is Poltorak.
From physiological prospective this would be logical as the gap between parents and children who were born here must be above the average. Is there a pattern?
Russians also smarter that Americans ;-) so they ask more questions, look at today’s posts for example.
Oh no, plenty of Americans leave the fold too, but Russians are possibly more conspicuous because, like your favorite 'pisher' below, they have a built-in aversion to mediocrity.
I don't think that would apply to Okunov though. The Pisher is Pisher ben Kaker/BT/PhD. All the families I listed are down to earth Baal Shemsker Yidden.
P.S. Reb Sholom Keller will tell you a thing or two about mediocrity too...
TA,
You've listed 3, mind you 3, families. Where's the prvoerbial smoking gun? In all of the anove there are very large extended families that did not 'fry' out. MS is not from a Russian family, so what? Even in Russia many of the above have and had realtions that did not stay as religious as the rest of the family. hardly a scientific hypotheis.
lipovitzer, this is not a trial and I am not looking for a "smoking gun". I am trying to understand. If you think this is not a trend, then tell so. Stop the defensive BS.
Who is MS?
And certainly there is a change; this was non existant trend 20 years ago. If you want to argue this point go away please.
I'm not defending anyone.I just don't think you can build a case from your assumption based on three very different families, that have a father how may be russian and a mother who is ( in most of the above cases) not.They have different social, economical and familial backgrounds. That's what I mean by not being a very scientific hypothesis.Their 'russian'backgrounds are also very different, as most of the russian ANASH are. you have people from the big cities, small form the shtetlach. Some of the ANASH have higher education in Russia and are fairly literate in Russ. Lit. and some who were literally 'underworld' figures kepshutoi. All of these factors effect how they raise and relate to their kids.
I don't mean to p. in your k.f. but this is quite an old phenominon and possibly (percentagewise) it is is less now than it was. Just the desenters can be more vocal (and productive) with modern technology and communication (internet etc.) I don't want to mention the names from twenty tears ago, those who know know. Your Russian hypothesis does make sence in certain cases. It has to be fleshed out.
Perhaps it has something to do with parents (particularly fathers) scarred from living in constant fear and subterfuge under the communists, leaving them emotionally crippled, not being able to trust those around them.
The tzad hashove shebohem (correct me if I am wrong) is that all of the above lived as frum tmimim in Russia and came to U.S. and were married without much time to adjust to the new world. (Rak ho'oro b'derech efshar).
Hard to say. There is very little empirical (?0 evidence as this is really the first generation of children of those that left 1967-1973. Most of them left as young kids or teenagers. While I think there is probably a tzad hashove ( lemalyuso) in how they raised their kids, the fact is that by and large the families of russian Anash escaped the chaos of may other geborene familes. Regardless of their level of religiosity, their kids tend to be more principaled and socially adjusted than their peers. just my personal observations.
Even in the times of "shanim ketikunom", the geza Lubavitcher rarely got any real kiruv from the rebbe. Compare lets say the kiruv a Prof Branover got to the kiruv "Chazak" got when he came from the USSR, or compare the kiruv Jim Brawer got from the rebbe to the kiruv the Drizin family got.
IN my opinion the geza people were "set up" to have a major yerida after the petirah of the rebbe as for them the game is over, the culture , values, language family relationships going back generations are all meaningless in the New Lubavitch.
Learning was never stressed, Yiras Shomayim was always on the back burner , Chabad culture was rarely talked about unlike in other Chasidic groups
The stress was on Hanasi who hakol, Messianic aspirationns , and kiruv.
These 3 things do have a hamshocha except for the first and thats where the problem is the tohu !
Who the hell is dissing okonov you wish you came from such yichus you guys are so lame.
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