mentalblog.com comments:
With some notable exceptions, such as the yeshiva world, most regrettably true.
There are plenty of bochrim that care about nothing Jewish, inside and outside of Lubavitch, and have always been. However, there are many for whom the issue is more than important. Go to 770 at 10:30 in the evening (an hour after seder has ended), walk over to where the bochrim are sitting, and verify my words.
Wait, we are talking about Jews, there always be bubbling in the cholnt. But the question what it is going taste like when you mix it up and taste a spoonful.
As an insider it would be difficult for me to speak in numbers. There is definitely a more than critical-mass core that is very into Rebbe/Moshiach/G-D/Chassidus, much more than the shabbos chulent - kishkeh or potatoes.
(Not to mention that the chulent probably dates back to TA's times...)
I saw pupik's comment after I had already posted mine.
A scathing generalization, and an unfair and untrue one. Whatever things looked like in ____ or whenever, let me assure you that like I said, at present there is in 770 a critical-mass core of bochrim that (gasp!) do learn; drop by 770 upstairs or downstairs during sedorim. Walk in upstairs on a Monday or a Thursday morning. Having just woken up, few sane people would subject themselves to listening for an hour to R. Yoel's voice if they were not in an intellectual commiment to understanding what goes on. That shiur is in Yiddish; a much bigger crowd attends his evening shiurim in Hebrew.
I have you take up your own challenge; stop those bochrim to explain a concept or two in Chassidus, and let's hear what they answer.
והאמת והשלום אהבו
from what i see this is true. a lot of guys exploit this for personal gain. there is no person to set anytyoe of guidlines. this problem stems from when the Rebbe was alive. noone except the Rebbe was ever really respected either for torah knowledge or avodah and now everyone can do what they want, the inmates run the assylum now
If you think the Israelis treat Yoel like a G-d, check out the poylishe. ואכ"מ.
Like I said, I am no expert on numbers. But a critical mass of boys sitting "on the books" - I would count at least 30 americans - is there.
And these same bochrim do respect other authority. I'm not sure I like it.
Significant leads to unshunned. Who is to shun the majority?
What counts is that there is a core that does care. It has happened many times in our nation's history that this core was a minority. But as long as the core is there, there is hope and confidence that this core will survive and grow, to the point that part of the cold mass will join and the rest will be marginalized.
(no hint to Protocol strategy is being implied)
The authority comment I made to the other commenter, kesler.
- g'nite
Nathan,
30 American boys learning.You call that 'critical mass'
??
This post is not about 770. 770 is as far to the realities of the Jewish world today as Japan. In addition it is more likely that Lubavitch will be defined by the fanatical meshichisten than by the 30 bochrim in the zal. The Icn. group already defined the Shlichus as a fund raising franchise perpetuating itself not the Am Yisroel. And this is all the dark garden path that the Rebbe lead us to.
Maybe the point about Dor Shevi'i being the 'final' one, is that if we wsere zoche then moshiach would come, but if not, that was the end of chabad? In either event, the final Dor.
The problem is that ideology of Chabad=Judaism=life. How do you stop that?
pupik, you might want to considered another orifice from which to broadcast your thoughts.
in your case it is more like mochin deyenUka.
the reason these kids have no notion is because high-and-mighty'niks like yourself like to thumb your nose at them and you keep it all to yourself. If you'd get off your horse and teach others naybe things would change.
"and neither do i give a meizele's ochuraim"
LOL!
I am a little perplexed by the name "Esnaged", which literally means "I will oppose".
Does that mean that there are ideas you currently approve of, but plan to soon oppose?
And back to topic, at the risk of sounding a little stubborn:
TA, you seem to be contradicting yourself. I quote directly:
it is more likely that Lubavitch will be defined by the fanatical meshichisten than by the 30 bochrim in the zal. The Icn. group already defined the Shlichus as a fund raising franchise perpetuating itself not the Am Yisroel
"Fanatical Meshichisten" and "Inc. group" are two conflicting and mutually exclusive groups (there is no inherent contradiction between being both a fanatical meshichist and into $$$ [there is, but the yellows are past the point of understanding that. ואכ"מ]). They cannot both define Lubavitch, nor can one keep defining Lubavitch and one Shlichus. That is the case now, but it is an unsustainable (unsustainable, insustainable?) situation. The ideological and executive arms of a movement cannot be at odds in the long term.
And the reality is that as in all cases in history, the דרך המיצוע - the "upper road", that which refuses to get into petty party politics - will lead the way.
That is in our case the "30 bochrim" who have better things to do with their life than lig'n in na'arishkeit. The ones who, come time, will either join the shlichus army with purer-than-average motives, or who will commit themselves to honest work, leaving time to study Torah on their own and with their children. It also includes the "mediocre", "mainstream" that still entertains a nostalgia for the bochrishe yoren and will look - when they do look - for their guidance, not to the yellows nor to Lubavitch, Inc, but to the "30 bochrim" and the communal life built around them.
In other words; the people will pull through. Cf your own post on pudding.
והעיקר - תומ"י ממש.
A real test for the real state of affairs in Torah learning is the level of Talmidey Chachomim it produced: IN the past 40 or 50 years
it has produced almost nothing in terms of talmidey chachomim of a higher statute. That is verifiable by the level of the writings they have produced. There is almost nothing of high caliber (except for Reshimos Shiurim of R. Kalmenson whose level can be found in higher numbers and higher quality in other yeshivos or Rav Farkash who learned outside of L and whose scholarship is exceeeded by far by talmidey chachomim in other circles or Rav Ashkenazi who put a lot of yegia in his books).
Likewise the level of the average and above average or even the"tov meod" in Lubavitch is far below other circles.
Pupik,
What Yankel says is basically true and easily verifiable by a visit to your local bookstore.Lubavitchs' intellectual output via books on talmud and halacha from members who attended Lubavitch are a miniscule percentage of this literature.With minor exceptions like deceased Rabbi Schvei from Montreal or Rabbis Kalmanson from New Haven and Brunoi, there are few rabbis of any caliber.
It's a shame.
mendel & yankel,
An accurate method of comparison here can't be in absolute numbers of serious lamdonim GNP. Rather, comparing a serious-lamdan-per-capita ratio of the yeshiva populations is the way to go... :)
why? we have just had a kinnus hatmimim hoolomi with thousands of bochurim.
And Lubavitch has a anash and bochurim in the whole world.
THe fact is: There are and there were *no* serious lamdan in the past 50 years besides a selected few.
And I disagree with Mendel about the output of books. But i whole heartedly agree on the *quality* of these books: they pale in comparison to a serious sefer from their counterparts.
These in fact relates to *any* kreizen.
This also entails lack of "yegias hatorah". You detect in the sefer by most Lubavitcher that (for the except few like Rav Ashkenazi or another) there is no *yegia*.
evidence?
as said look at the quality of the publications...anybody else: just talk with the "top" boys and yungerleyt...yegia shows through comprehension not "glamorous""Fluff" know nothing or fooling oneself in knowing...this belongs to the conversation which deals with the learning of the bochrim or what are the bochrim doing to fill their time...a great part of the "allotted" time is for nigleh...success in knowledge and effort is a slight pointer if time was filled or used for other futile purposes...
because they are the "product" of the "actual learning". And especially in Lubavitch where there is for the past 40 years a special emphasis in publications of all sorts, and there are constant publications on many other areas, and especially when a bochur is inculcated from the vigele to learn to "Show the misnaged" how (the misnaged cannot learn, but) he knows how to learn, and the Rebbe even emphasized it stronger in the very last years, also by the last yechidus to the boys etc. it becomes a very strong "proof" that the lack of almost any serious publication eitrher in the area of gemoroh or in the area of halocho teaches volumes.
Especially in light of what comes out from other circles (where also there, we do not have *every* single bochur or lakewood, mir or what have you publishing books, but) where we see their publications and we can "see" and "open our eyes" as to their level of learning their involvement in learning and the difference becomes day and night. The lack of books and the quality of those few that do appear give us some proof about all the above.
(just to add: if you look what comes out from other circles on the mihne bruroh and comes out from us on the Alter Rebbe Shulchon Oruch and you'll the difference. Likewise: Even on the works of the Alter Rebbe the veltishe come out with mopre serious good books than the few that come out by us).
One thing i agree with you: i "know" first hand about the mediocre level of learning by the average and by the above average and it is mind boggling how poor the state of affairs are.
'And I disagree with Mendel about the output of books. But i whole heartedly agree on the *quality* of these books: they pale in comparison to a serious sefer from their counterparts. '
Yankel, true,Lubavitch, publishes a lot, due in part to some smart investments in their own printing presses which alleviate the trouble and expense of using others.HOWEVER, the example I gave was your local bookstore to see how few, seforim written by Lubavitchers would actually be BOUGHT or sold......very, very few.
The publications that do abound are unfortunately on the large part,Meshichist propoganda or various journals with the very mediocre works of teenage bochrim.
I will tell you that if a serious sefer is published even the Litvishe will buy as I myself saw when browsing the Otsor Haseforim in the Mir in Flatbush, where a very well thumbed through 'Mei Tal' was on the shelves
The author of Mei Tal got his book printed by Machon Yerushalayim. That, in itself, is a serious "haskama", and would serve to help remove (at least, reduce) the "Lubavitcher stigma".
How many people would buy it 10 years ago, when it was printed by "Oholei Shem"?
I believe that one of the seforim on messechet shabbos (messechet learned this year in our yeshivos) has a whole biur on a subject and notes that the bulk of what he writes is bassed on "mei tal".
Interesting. You wouldn't know that sefer's name?
Mei Tal is a chosheveh sefer.Agreed.The problem is that he is almost a 'yochid'.R'Farkash has seforim which are quite widely sold, but again he is a 'yochid' and if I'm not mistaken never learned in Chabad, rather by Harav Vosner.
Anybody know of other seforim which olomisheh buy?
Other seforim which olomishe buy?
How about "Kosher Sex" by Boteach?
I beleive it's "meleches shabbos".
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