mentalblog.com comments:
"But we will not shed a tear about Geza on this blog."
Who is 'we'? It's OK to say 'I' - really. Unless you have an editorial staff.
This discrepancy did not prevent Drizin from marring his daughter to Branover’s bum. They are both zhlobs, geza or not.
I speak for the silent majority Berl.
Silent majorities are made up of scary people.
In any case, I always cringe when I see the 'we' refrain. I find it a bit embarrassing and even reminiscent of the 'the CEO of shmeis.com' style (sorry). Thought I tell you what it sounds like from this reader’s perspective. And though I can’t claim to speak for anyone else, I would surely not shed a single tear if you were to drop the ‘we’.
we is a habit. I in my work they taught me to write we in a letter as I speak for the company not myself. So unless it is a personal letter I got into a habit of writing we.
This is a personal blog so no matter what title I give myself we will still write in the first tense.
In totalitarian (notably Communist) regimes, any person in power was always speaking not for himself G-d forbid, but always "the people".
Thus an enemy of any such person instantly became "an enemy of the people"...
There is a know propaganda technique called turnspeak:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jka.../
turnspeak.html
By claiming that I am part of totalitarian you reverse the argument 180%, we all know better as to what party represent the communist totalitarian aspirations.
well schneur zalman makes a good point
but it souns similar to when a guest shows up or g-d forbid if someone has a sick child they get all the attention and the rest of the family looses out. but i hope that deep down they realize what it is
and i guess maybe that is why certain people want to make sure the "farmers" in crown heights stay that way and create a "new" lubavitch
but wh realy know what "daas elyoin " is
For a person who has a true Lubavtcher chosid it was considered an insult to receive those kiruvim. No bochur that went through a chasidisher chinuch would be jealous of the kiruvim of a zalman jaffee.
In secular terms people usually get what they desire.
Few Geza people have acted in a manner to take steps to preserve their traditional lifestyle.
I am afraid that the the years of 1920-1946in Communist Russia had a tremendous impact on these people as a whole generation grew up with out benefit of that traditional lifestyle themselves.
Very few Luabvitchers leaving Russia(of course there were some elders who were shtark frume Yidden) in the period after WW2 were Charedim in the sense of the word as defined by Hungarian and Galician Jews.
I think the rebbe understood this and knew he could do anything in "Americanizing" the movement and get away with it.
שגור בפי ישראל דוכמאן ז"ל
מיר און מיכל ראסקין זענען געזשא, קרינסקי און גראנער זענען ----- פון הדר התורה און זיי פירען ליובאוויטש! שומו שמים!
Aha, well since you accuse me of "turnspeak", perhaps you are the one practicing it, then trying to turn the tables on me... :)
I hope it's clear I'm kidding. No accusation of any sort was ever intended, I simply found the "we" cute.
Great article, though. First time I see this phenomenon described in such detail and with so much corroboration. As we Jews say, kol haposel bemumo posel.
'Totalitarian' is a reference to a regime, or to someone in power. But 'communistic' also describes an entitled (a 'mir kumt') state of mind, and this term is applicable even to someone who is not in any position of power. These people do tend to speak for groups with various grievances. If you do not like people to draw these parallels, don't use the commie jargon.
As to the 'corporate jargon' influence, please don't b***s*** a b***s***ter. WE know the difference between the corporate 'we' and the 'We' of the Oppressed People.
Schneur,
You wrote:
"The stress was on Hanasi hu hakol (and later) Messianic aspirations and kiruv."
This really began in earnest when Reb Mendel Futerfas took over the reigns in Kfar Chabad.(In the days of Reb Shloime Chaim things were otherwise.)
Reb Mendel in turn was taught this Derech by his teacher and mentor Reb Zalman Moshe of Nevel who revolutionized the concept of "REBBE" "NASI" in Chabad.
You wrote:
"Compare lets say the kiruv Prof Branover got to the kiruv "Chazak" got when he came from the USSR, or compare the kiruv Jim Brawer got from the Rebbe to the kiruv the Drizin family got."
Ironic, that you used Branover Brawer & Drizin. As both of the professors sons married granddaughters of R. Avrohom Drizin.
Interestingly, The Rebbe himself was personally involved in arranging the Drizin-Branover Shidduch.)
P.S. today marks the 70th anniversary of the big Bar Mitzva in Otvotzk.
"As both of the professors sons married granddaughters of R. Avrohom Drizin."
That was funny, MIB.
I am sure the Branovers will be happy to discover a hereto-unknown son. That he grew up chassidic and married into a prominent Chabad family - all without any parental guidance - is nothing short of miraculous! ;)
MIB, seriously though - the change in KH after Reb Shliemo Chaim is well known and was discussed here before. But do you really believe Reb Mendel had such a profound ideological influence on Lubavitch bechlal? I do not think so. As to Reb Zalman Meishe HoYitzhoki, what do you mean by "revolutionized the concept of "REBBE" "NASI" in Chabad"? Please clarify.
Let them all frie out, as punishment for the discrimination, midah keneged midah.
As punishment? The greatest thing a religious jew can wish for is to break free from the intellectual and emotional dependencies that one is bound by to the morbidly obese, corrupt and unholy thing we tend to call a community today.
Berl
Not Reb Mendel personally, but his Derech profoundly influenced Lubavitch and this Derech was in turn the one he learned from Reb Zalman Moshe.
MIB, could you please tell more about Reb Zalman Moshe, his background. Cultural influences? I am interested to know if he was ultimately reared on ideas that took hold in Europe in the next century.
MIB, this is an interesting topic. My hunch is that Reb Yoel's influence on Lubavitch ideology is 1000 times greater than - lehavdil bein chaim lechaim - Reb Mendel's and Zalman Meishe's put together. But I would like to hear more from you (and not just a couple of lines) on this. Thanks.
lehoir: I remember being told that Zalman Meishe came from a misnagdishe background and joined Lubavitch as an adult, never heaving learnt in TT (I think he would not be too old to study there in the first years). His son-in-law Reb Avrohom Mayor did study in Lubavitch, of course.
Don't have much time to write, but I'll add some background.
Reb Zalman Moshe came from a Kopuster family. He was born in 1872 in Nevel to his father Reb Dovber ("Berel Der Shoichet") who was the Chabad shoichet in Nevel, his mother was a Ziselson, daughter of a prominent Lubaitch family in Nevel. Reb Zalman Moshe studied in the Kopuster cheder in Nevel.
He married Neshe Reines of Zhembin, first cousin of the famed Reb Isaac Jacob Reines of the Mizrachi movement.
He was married foe quite a few years when Tomchei Temimim was founded and never officially studied there though he did join shiurim given by Reb Shmuel Groinem Esterman. He subsequently became the Ruach Chaim of Chassidic life in Nevel and the surrounding area. As the Rebbe Rashab would refer to him as "Mein Zalman Moshe"...
Interestingly, Berel Der Shoichet's father was known in Nevel as Dovid "HaTzarfosi" as he had come from France as a young man, he had a ksav yuchsin tracing him back (ben achar ben!) to Rabbeinu Yaakov Ha Yitzchoki aka Rabbeinu Tam.
As mentioned once before, the HaYitchoki's and R. Aharon Kotler were Mechutanim, as the mother of R. Dov Shvartzman (son in law of R. Aharon) was a Nevel born HaYitzchoki was well.
Reb Yoel is a modern day Shmuel Groinem, a Maskil of Chassidus par excellence, but to say he profoundly influenced the Rebbe/Chassid relationship? Nunu
Gut Shabbos.
"but to say he profoundly influenced the Rebbe/Chassid relationship? Nunu"
I agree that he did not exert much influence in this specific area (but I still wait to hear from you what really changed in this prat). He did, however, profoundly influence the 'seder hadifuyot' of the bachurim and hence the de-facto ideology of Lubavitch. And it seems wrong to say that he ‘stuck to haskoloh only’. Hope to hear more specifics about the unique aspects of 'Zalman Meishe's derech'.
gut shabbos
Are there any details about the man besides yichus? If he was so influential I want to know who was the man more than who was his father?
The details are many and the hour is late.
I'm sure you can find out more at a good Shabbos Mevarchim farbrengen in Boston.
very funny! :lol: :lol: :lol:
While Reb Yoel may not be person who revolutionized or changed Lubavitch towards being totally centered on REbbe/chossid relationship; he did and does have major influence in this area and followed this particular derech (of whoever founded it or whatever).
Hiskashrus to the Rebbe is the major theme of his farbrengens now as was 20 years ago and this "ikkor kol hachassidus" (and everything else is a "emtzoi" to this end - similar to Reb Hillel's hiddur mitzvah to attain a derher in a vort of chassidus-). I do not know about 40 years ago but i do know about the past two decades. (They had in Sturem.net a few months ago notes of a farbrengen by REb Yoel some 40 plus years ago? by R. Krantz o"h and i must say that the contents of that farbrengen was totally different than what i hear from him these past decades).
While bochurim want to have a glimpse of his chassidic mastery they see in him *mainly* as the person who explains to them what and how the connection to the REbbe is performed and accomplsihed today.
Some of our fellow lubavitchers who pride themselves with the title 'geza'...what were they back in russia the shul janitors! Like they say geza is a bunch of zeros it means nothing unless you put a one in front of it.
Intersting you mention Brawer and Branover along with the Drizins, as they both have children married into the Drizin family.
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