mentalblog.com comments:
Futterrfas and all others , were prompted and coached by the rebbe, to brain wash the lubavitch masses that the rebbe is Nasi and Mashiach, Don't divert the credit (responsibilty) from the current lubavitch frame of mind, away from the rebbe ,anyone who did not promote the rebbes agenda was sideswiped ,or lost his job completly.
Puppets, calm down please. We(I) want to talk.
He does have a point, Tzemach, about the source of the hashkafa. R Mendel Futerfas might have made a shturm about it, but the 'Nosi Hador' philosophy belonged to the Rebbe. Not the Rebbe Rayatz, nor any of the other rebbes.
Indeed Rebbe coined the name Nosi in relationship to RaYatz.
I never heard his name to be "Schneur Zalman Meishe", only "Zalman Meishe". Please check it. MIB?
We(I) want to talk.
LOL
The hashkafa of "nossi hador" as part of a whole mosaic and multiissues (and how they are a focus unto themselves and the concept of nosi is (also) a means to help reach these issues), was part of the REbbe's teachings; "heemidon al achass": meaning that this is the only thing or that if there are other things they must lead and help the issue of "nossi hador" is a *not* the Rebbe's doing it belongs to certain individuals who helped mold the hashkafah that we have today.
For instance: in the REbbe's vision greaqt emphasis was placed on learning *all* parts of Torah (including the revealed parts); certain individuals ommitted it completely or minimized it.
If you listen to the Rebbe's sicheis from the early yuds, you will hear (in reference to the Previous Rebbe) the same kind of talk later heard from mashpiim such as Reb Mendel. But... I do not believe this approach was originated with the Rebbe. The post WWII Samarkand Chabad culture (that was almost completely cut of from any meaningful communication with beis chaeinu) was steeped in the most intense kind of hiskashrus, the kind seldom seen in America & Israel even in the late nuns. Going back further, some of the sayings of the gedeilei chassidim horisheinim (such as Reb Aizik Homlyer's famous lahashem hayeshuoh) put to shame even the most extreme of the shpitz Chabad pronouncements by the later mashpiim.
No, the roots of this stuff predates Zalman Meishe.
MIB, is driving me crazy, he wants this post deleted because it will cause comments that are not kovod to the Rebbe. He says he will not post again if I don’t delete the post.
Why not just moderate the commenting? MIB?
I will have to moderate myself :)
Well, that's the price of Knowledge.
ART demands sacrifices.
Berl, you are right, the idea did predate zm but he rejuvenated and made it mainstream.
"he rejuvenated and made it mainstream"
MIB - that sounds much more accurate. But can you please write in greater detail as why & how dafka Zalman Meishe?
"he rejuvenated and made it mainstream"
MIB - that sounds much more accurate. But can you please write in greater detail as why & how dafka Zalman Meishe?
Being that I wasn't around during that era it would be hard for me to repeat in writing what I have heard over the years, but there are many people who you can talk to such as R. Sholom Feldman from Kfar Chabad, R. Gershon Mendel Garelik of Milan etc...
MIB, do not be lazy and just site 1-2 examples (it takes longer to type the excuses). Please.
sad.
MIB is out of his depth here but he has to go into drei instead of just admitting it and moving on. It is always I don't have time to write instead of I don't know. Time to grow up!
Reb Zalman Moshe, though he never officially occupied any position, was the ultimate Mashpia. He was loved and revered by the young Chassidim. His style was very different from the "official Mashpi'im" and those who knew him, knew that he was a Chassid which was Kol Kulo pnimiyus and in which Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus had no achiza. Though he spent his entire life emersed in Torah and Tefilah, Reb Zalman Moshe treasured the Chassidishe Farbrengen, he would say that "learning and davening without a farbrengen are like a guf without a neshama". Today these ideas are mainstream and reached by all; it wasn't so once when the Haskalah was destroying Chassidishe life in Reisin.
Later when the great Mashpi'im wanted to inside their tudents "what is chassidus?" "What is hiskashrus?" they used the example of Reb ZM. As the Rebbe once said "Reb Zalman Moshe's a Vurt Chazert men Ibber baim Rebben's Tish
"Wanted to instill in their students"
MIB, everyone who has been in Lubavitch for two months will hear this very description about 10 other people, at least.
What used to be a human being becomes a caricature, because shadows that everyone has, shadows that help transform two dimensional caricature into a three dimensional live person are taboo…
Tzemach,
That's why I hesitated to respond to Berl and your inquiries, I did not merit personally know Reb ZM and therefore do not know enough have enough of the hergesh of those who had met him and related to me their memories. Sorry for disappointing
So let me teach you a new word MIB: I don't know.
I do not know.
Because let me remind you where we started, you claimed the ZM was the founder of the movement and teacher of MF, etc. And the truth is you don't know and whatever you heard from Gershon Mendel is crap, because that is all one can hear from Gershon Mendel.
Mikol Melamdai Hiskalti, Yashar Koiyach Tzemach.
Can anyone pinpoint when the term "nosi hador" enter into public usage?
Reb Mendel made no secret of whom his teacher and guide was, niether did Reb Nissan and others. If Reb GM isn't a reliable source meet R. Sholom Feldman.
If anyone knows about ZM, its MIB. Tell em the way its is MIB, don't let these alter kakers bully you around.....
Who is R. Sholom Feldman? I don't know ;)
Sholom Feldman? now thats a post. He is the eldest grandson of R. Yisroel Nevler, he's a printer and lives in Kfar Chabad.
How is he related to my Teacher and Master Zelig Levin?
(step) first cousins, and (real) 2nd cousins.
But the Rebbe's sicheis of the early yud's contain many many more things and wasn't an one and only thing.
al achas kamoh vekamoh when the years went by there were numerous inyonim that were not synonimous with an " heemidon al achass", the approach of RZM and RMF.
AS far as the origin i think that propaganda succeeded in making the masses believe that the talk of RZM was the talk amongst all gedeyley hachassidm when in fact it does not seem to be so. You had lots of people whose voices were silenced (in a sense how groups today silenced their opponents -M vs non M-).
Suffice it to say: that in addition to RZM (REb Mendel or REb Bentzche Shem T or here Reb Avrohom Pariz) there were others: IN addition to Reb Nissen, Reb Shlome Chayim, there were also REb Yisroel Noach, and for instance other figures like REb Shmerel Batumer whose views were not heard for their opinions and views and their personofication as chassidim were not as publicized as the more juicy and spicy as the others (though even REb Shemerel was instrumental in the hachtoroh of the REbbe).
And probably Reb Ayzik probably had much more to say that just those repeated like "lashem hayshuoh". And imagine for instance REb Hillel who was a deep "mekushor" but perhaps would not pass the test by standards of RZM etc. (would say maamorim etc.)
"step) first cousins, and (real) 2nd cousins"
Sorry I thought you wrote "zelig feldman".
Sholom Feldman and Zelig Levin are real fist cousins. Sholom's mother was sister of Zeligs father.
Wasn't Yisroel Neveler name Levin?
MIB, what do you know about how Zelig Levin felt rejected by Chabad? Ended up marring Satmar woman, etc.
Reb Yisroel Nevler's name was Yisroel Levin. His daughter Feldman was the mother of R. Sholom Feldman and his son Dovid Aba was the father of Zelig Levin.
Nosi hador and the obssesion with a dead one leading our new generation is a Lubavitch fabrication.
It should be noted that Sholom Feldman himself is not at all a nosi hu hakol type. Although he was booted (back) to Kfar Chabad in the first place on account of highly, um, shpitz activities, today he's much more into stories, avodah etc.
BTW, with all the talk about Reb Mendel’s alleged cult of hiskashrus and the nosi huw hakkeil ideal, Reb Mendel talked about other things just as much: Tanya-baal-peh (obsessively), davenen baarichus, stories of yore, lessons he learned from various members of Russian intelligentsia he met in ‘the camps’, stam stories from ‘the camps’, stories and verter by/about old chassidim, private hadrocho, etc, etc, etc...
True, but they were mainly a means to ultimate goal of: Rebbe.
Btw, amongst all inyonim that you mentioned about Reb Mendel, it cannot be forgotten a vital and pivotal "ways of a chossid", the tremendous "ahavas yisroel + messirus nefesh: how well loved he is amongst many chassidim due to his personal devotion and inovolvement in getting them out of russia to the degree of messirus nefesh where he was left behind as an older chossid told me "ער איז ביי מיר איינגעבארקען אין הארצען".
MIB, can u give us some more background on how ZM was inciting the bochrim in Lubavitch agaisnt R Gronam. I've heard many times, without any details or names, that todays differences in Lubavitch can be traced back all the way, and along the same families as the Gronam boys and the ZM boys.
Please enlighten us.
sorry for another typo: the chossid told me how RMF is "איינגעבאקט" or "איינגעקארבט אין הארצן".
Whichever way: this is and was a deep expression of deep love that RMF earned amongst many chassidim for his real messirus nefesh and deep ahavas yisroel.
Greinem had no [normal] children.
as per sholem feldman, the story goes that he was asked to leave to kfar chabad by the rebbe, he is famous for his farbrengens, and i remember him quoting - book in hand - from sicheis of the frierdiker rebbe. he is part of the original "yud's" bochurim, including berel shemtov, leibel raskin, gershon mendel garelik, avremel shemtov and others. all of those are famed for a "unique" brand of hiskashrus, and all have deeply influenced much of the younger generation of lubavitch - והכל עולה לכיוון אחד
FYI
yankel, your description of Reb Mendel is correct, no doubt at all. I was only talking about the diversity of his message, not about his personal qualities. And I did not get from him that the Rebbe was the 'ultimate goal'. I once quoted this statement of his before, and it belongs in this discussion again: 'di nikkudo fun zehn dem Rebbe'n is ztoo zehn vi a guf gashmi - bosor vedom, punkt vi daine - is in gantzen nit mastir af elokus'. The 'ultimate goal' was the connection with G-d. The Rebbe's message is exclusively that, as you know. And the Rebbe poked fun at ‘shpizt Chabad’ attitudes on many an occasion.
Now, the concept of a nesi hadeir is a different story. The Rebbe clearly believed in it and used the expression all the time. I am sure you search through the writings of the nessiei Chabad, you will find a mokeir for it, but it was the Rebbe who farshpreit the idea and thus – like the famous attribution of a medrash tehilim to Baal Shem Teiv in Tanya – you can safely attribute this notion to the Rebbe.
The Nosi 'hadeir' obssesion is not only the silly partisan rants of the followers, but those of the leader himself?I hope the previous poster is wrong or learns how to keep quite about it.'Interesting' that the Nosi thingee is 'conveniently' attributed to the current Lubavitcher leader.How unassuming!
How in their twisted minds an individual who passed on over ten years ago is still current 'President of the Jews' is fascinating.
zisha, take your opinions and put them 'where the sun don't shine'. WE are not interested in them; and you are completely out of your depth here.
1. Regarding ZM being the "father" of the movement.....
The shemtov's always praise him for the famous "precedent", when he refused to continue learning under Reb Shmuel Gronem, as the latter didn't learn the present Rebbe's (the Rasha"b's) chassidus, rather of the Mahara"sh.
The Rasha"b called him into his room and questioned him about the matter, and after ZM explained his reasoning, the Rasha"b said something like "if thats the case, adrabeh..."
The Shemtovs etc. use this story as the basis of their "McArtheism".....
2. Regarding Reb TA's master and teacher who married a satmar etc.
Not everyone who married into other sects, does so out of rejection....
especially your master who got married at the age of aprox 30....
והמבין יבין
ודי לחכימא ברמיזא
kremenchuger, you mean to say they used ZM's name to justify the redifeis against his very own eidim?
Berl.
Nice intellectual response.
Dead Nosi Hador.Wow.
Hey, I forgot that the chasidic guests (ushpizin)an unoriginal play on the theme of the forefathers Abraham,Yitzchok etc visiting the sukkas, are also 'conveniently' the Lubavitch line of 7 Rebbes.How unassuming.Whether you like it or not 'they' i.e only the Lubavitcher line are the leaders of Judaism!They will force this down our throats even when it gets totally insane:The Nosi 'Hadeir' is a dead man, but he is Lubavitch and that's what counts!
"Regarding Reb TA's master and teacher who married a satmar etc.
Not everyone who married into other sects, does so out of rejection....
especially your master who got married at the age of aprox 30...."
It is interesting that R'Yisroel Drizin A"H was also married to someone from andere kreizen as are other geza mishpoches. I think there was less polarization among the frume in those days and less of a choice among one's own.
"Regarding Reb TA's master and teacher who married a satmar"
TA
Berl from CH:
Your comments beg a few questions. I would e-mail you, but you don't provide that info. So here I ask:
1) Would you please give a few examples of the Rebbe making fun of the "shpitz chabad" crowd.
2) Would you please describe "The post WWII Samarkand Chabad culture".
3) What is the "lashem hayshuoh" vort?
Kremenchuker 4) What explanation did ZM give to the Rashab for not wanting to learn the Maharash's chassidus?
"The shemtov's always praise him for the famous "precedent", when he refused to continue learning under Reb Shmuel Gronem, as the latter didn't learn the present Rebbe's (the Rasha"b's) chassidus, rather of the Mahara"sh."
IIRC, this or a similar story occured with r' avrohom paris. (with the rashab/fr (?) )
"What explanation did ZM give to the Rashab for not wanting to learn the Maharash's chassidus"
he was a chossid of the rashab not of the maharash - the shemtov's use this logic in praising and exalting 22 shevat and the rebbetzin (unzere mamme) and downplaying the FR - it wasn't that he was against the maharash's chassidus - the problem was more with the maharash himself - so to say.
Berl: "kremenchuger, you mean to say they used ZM's name to justify the redifeis against his very own eidim?
"
Yes.. and Columbus did discover America......
Pupik: "IIRC, this or a similar story occured with r' avrohom paris. (with the rashab/fr (?) )"
Highly doubt it, the timline doesn't fit in well, He also didn't really stand out in T"T, only until later on in EY, when unfortunately he abused his power to torture all the new chasidim who came in the late 40's......
He, the quintessential חסיד שוטה רשע is actually the forerunner of S.C and B.S
Hold it. Letters of a personal nature, the like of which the Rebbe wrote to R' AP in '50 and on, are not to be commonly found.
yankel, your description of Reb Mendel is correct, no doubt at all. I was only talking about the diversity of his message, not about his personal qualities.
I understood that you were talking about the diversity of his message. I though though, this "personal quality" was/is the *real* message. I thought that he emanated thism essage to the generation who knew him for his living example and he was mashpia by example.
I think (maybe wrongly) that the present generation who did not experience this, did not get this message and therefore the message that they did get is a corrupted message.
It clearly seems that the present generation did not learn the message that the "REbbe is not mastir tzoo Elokus" per se; they rather got the message past that... r"l. Ask a bochur today what he heard of RMF and he rather tell you another message: "voss kukts doo af dem rebben vee a bossor vodom?"
THe message also seems to concentrate on how to mock other jews, and it was forgotten that sometimes he gave an example that these examples are meant to our misnaged etc and it remained with the whole goal of chassidus is to malign other jews etc. etc. and in the meantime the "connection eith G-d" is spmewhat in the back burner (if...).
Of course i know "The Rebbe's message is exclusively that", but it does not seem to given and transmitted over...
Of course, i am aware of the terms Nosi Hador and all that it entails. It however came with a strong combination of the message of "oofheiben" everything to der Eybershter and through the mdium of Torah and Mitzvos. There is no new religion that subsitututes or replaces c"v the "old" Torah.
If one incorporates this with Nossi hador" it has a totally different meaning in theology and in practice.
I don’t have time to read all the comments today but I will say this. One can not talk about the issues in a vacuum. You have to consider the time and the cultural ideas bubbling at the time. Nevel is about an hour from Leningrad. It is inconceivable that the currents of absolutism that were shooting in the air like a gazer well in Leningrad/Petrograd would not spill out in Nevel.
Similarly it is inconceivable that there would not be some Benzi that would unconsciously emulate one dimensional commissars in worst way vdal.
TA, which ideas bubbling at the time led to the Jewish idea of monotheism back then in the early days for example?
And isn't your line of reasoning somewhat reminiscent of S. Dubnow's claim, that Hasidism was a "poor-man's"-attempt to escape the gloomy reality of Eastern European oppression and economical distress?
Or maybe you just like to mention the "absolutism"-claim ever so often to stress that this TA's blog, and his blog alone? ("I also wish the Lubavitch (not all) part of my audience will go away (please). I have nothing further to learn from you." - TA)
Or maybe, absolutism, just like it's art, warms your heart ("Nothing warms the heart as much as the empty and superb Socialist Realism art." - TA)
yomtov, I am glad you know how to read, becasue this might be your only skill.
My reading-skills aside, I really enjoyed an interesting and relatively in-depth discussion of topics here,
that are at the core of day-to-day Lubavitch identity (as berl pointed out, RMF put heavy emphasis Tanya-baal-peh, something that was readily felt during RMF's time in KCH and even afterwards, under R. Moshe Neparstak; a serious bochur-yungerman may well be influenced in his Avodas HaShem bichlal and his Chassidishkeyt bifrat for a life-time due to such influences)
- till I read your comment about Leningrad's absolutist influence on Inyaney Hiskashrus - boych-sfores le-mehadrin.
Are you suggesting that ideas of absolutism were shooting in the air at the times of the Rebbe Rashab only? What about the times of the AR - czarist monarchy isn't good enough absolutism for you?
TA, I do not know who Yomtov is, but anyone that singles out Meishe Naparstak out of the entire hanholoh in KH has good sense and feel for ‘real’ people (for MN is uniquely ‘real’). Do not rush to judgment just because you disagree on this issue.
[To Whom It May Concern: Every time any name is mentioned in a comment, there is invariably someone ready to pounce and trash that person. This is really ugly. So let’s nip in the bud - no trashing of RMN! Please.]
Is meishke real? i don't know, but he is certainly of a different flavor than many other mashpi'im. He has a "Koch" in teimchei temimim.
Reb meishke has a different way of learning chassidus, rather differently then yeil, and is known for super repetitious statements! iv'e been told that he follows the "older approach" of learning chassidus. but in regards to absolutism, i see it more in him than in any other mashpia.
I'm not sure I understand this whole conversion. Does anyone have their own opinion of what the Rebbe was about and expects of us today? We are living in unprecedented times.
The Rebbe made all kinds of statements and requests and they are extremely clear. So what does the Rebbe and his instructions mean to you right now.
The Rebbe made it clear what a Rebbe is, Nossi Hador. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand what that means. The Rebbe said we should do all that we can to bring Moshiach and everything should be influenced by that goal in mind.
If you (WE) are his Chassidim today, how do we carry out our present mandate.
In other words if my Commander gives me orders today and I am his soldier, shouldn't the present order be most prominent in my actions and mind.
It's all nice and well the older chassidim, for history classes and nostalgia and better understanding of the past perhaps even to shed light on the present, however today, hoyoim lasoisom what and how do we carry out our orders?
uniquely 'real' -
I don't know him too well, but vis-a-vis the rest of hanholo there, most certainly. Vedal.
The hanholla of kfar chabad has a heavy lineup, among them, a cousin of TA's mentor, Dovid Aba zalmanov.
(truthfully, this is the first time i'm hearing that much praise for meishke, but why not? - although he is not liked too much in the yeshiva)
Nathan, that is to suggest that you don't pray to Reb Zalman?
Pupik, that would be correct. Though I am not in a mood to start discussing him over here.
"Can anyone pinpoint when the term "nosi hador" enter into public usage?
Pmh | 02.26.06 - 12:03 am | #
pmh
as for public usage i dunno. the story is told however, that the rogatchover once reffered to the FR as "nosi"
MIB
zelig feldman was zalmans son
sholom feldman is shmerels stepson/first-cousin-once-removed
C'mon Lubavitchers let's not start this crap about what the Rogatchover held of Lubavitch....
Yechi Hamelech, yechi the 'new' religion.With are own eyes we see the developing of a new religion with Judaic roots.Guess who stars as Chris........t
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