mentalblog.com comments:
Don't hate, congratulate.
Is it any wonder why so many of our mekurovim end up in Ohr Somayeach?
Sorry Anonymous (hey, I thought TA don't let that), I'm not playa-hatin' over here. I feel bad for Matis, and others like him he came to Kan Tziva just to eat the Tomchei kashe and instead were given a BaDa"TZ shwarma and a Bais Moshiach mag.
You know, re-reading my comment-turned-post, I realize that my statements sounded pretty vague and unsubstantial. Let me just state for the record, YES, of course, Matis is a Messianist. What else would you expect him to be? For a while, he would wear the yechi yarmulke the rest of the time and change for concerts. Now, he's so exposed to the media, he never wears it, but he's got it written in his head. He was trained in how to hide his yechi without meshichist-guilt from his mashpia, the self-appointed "rabbi" to NYU (who later earned Merkos backing in a strange turn of fate that included the ousting of Eli Cohen) who also spent about a year in yeshiva and also knows chasidus from the English Dvar Malchus in Beis Moshiach. Matis is a product of the Crown Heights chinuch that has OT cheder yingelech and HH BTs alike unable to translate all of the words on a page of Tanya or name any of the Rebbe's mazkirim other than Leibl Groner.
Boruch der ayzel makes a good point. I hope he can provide statistics to satisfy the pendantic reader. "Our mekurovim" usually seek authentic Yiddishkeit. But when the authenticity seekers are dwarfed by the group who care only to parade their hiskashrus, I suspect many move on.
I didn’t know that knowing the mazkirim was part of the religion. Also can a Meshichist be on the Merkoz list? What were the details of Eli Cohen departure?
P.S. Is there a "meshichist-guilt" :?: 8)
" Boruch der ayzel makes a good point. I hope he can provide statistics to satisfy the pedantic reader"
Anecdotal for sure. Have you ever seen the guys with the Tanyas and Tehilas Hashem sidurim in the OS Beis Medrash?
Anyways, since when do us frummer Yidden resort to statistics? "Everyone knows...." has always been good enough ;)
>>I didn’t know that knowing the mazkirim was part of the religion.
Knowing mazkirim is not part of the religion. What it is a good litmus test for, however, is whether the mekurov has any clue about the world they've fallen into. Most HH BTs from the current era (Matis for sure included) could not tell you who MIH Hodakov was. They for sure couldn't name a single mashpia in Lubavitch or any of the TT yeshivas in Russia. They couldn't tell you the names of the Rebbetzin's sisters. Is this info that leads to ahava or yira? No. But it sort of gives you a nice indication of the insipidness and lack of savvy of the CH BTs and how whether by default or design they have ironically been sheltered from anything but "Yellow Fever." Think about it. What type of "die-hard" Red Sox fan would you be in 2006 if you never heard of Bucky Dent or Yaz from 78? Even if you're twelve years old, if you have even the slightest bit of curiosity, I would expect you to have caught up.
>>Also can a Meshichist be on the Merkoz list?
I already told you. The chitzon from NYU asuaged his "meshichist-guilt" by convincing himself he would pull a "vayahas Koleiv" and be a Morrano meshichist. Merkos doesn't apply lie-detector tests.
>>What were the details of Eli Cohen departure?
This is public knowledge in CH. The point is that when they tossed him, they were desperate to fill the spot quickly (as to not allow a power vacuum in Manhattan) and placed his two appointees officially under the system after they swore not to be meshichistin any longer.
The guy from NYU (meSHI'ITE or not) is a pnimiyusdike guy with a facinating story.
I agree with the general message of the post.
>>The guy from NYU (meSHI'ITE or not) is a pnimiyusdike guy with a facinating story.
Tzfania, you don't know. Allow me to re-word your post: The guy from NY (Fascinating story or not) is a grubber chitzon and a meshichist.
Or, he's a mishechist because he has yirras shomayim!
pisher, go back to your blog.
:*
There is general American tendency to ignore and isolate history. Than there is specific Lubavitch tendency to start and end with the Rebbe (“ha kol”). Than there is a tendency to be very careful with the historic facts as they might not be in agreement with the official line. Is there any wonder about the rampant ignorance? Are the BTs to blame? It was all under the watch of RAMASH, HH are just the small soldiers, do not pick on them.
Anyway, let's get back to the issue of what TA aptly calls "The Education of Mr. Miller). The obnoxious kid from NYU who was mekareiv him is not the problem. He is just a symptom, just another product of the scene in CH over the last ten years that has allowed American BTs in HH and Vilshanski's yetzurim in 770 to essentially raise themselves. They have no chinuch, they have no upbringing, they have no historical context. What they do have is pep rallies in the gym that was once 770 and a totally hefker youth culture that has seeped its way into the predominant CH worldview. This chalishus is manifest in the utter abondment of chinuch for the BTs so that they are essentially left inept as chasidim and at raising happy, well-adjusted chasidisher children. It's like Golding's "Lord of the Flies" for crying out loud! This is no more pronounced than in the total neglect of Matis' alma mater, HH, where the RY is (perhaps to protect his own emotional health) uninvolved in the real training of the bocherim. Instead they are raised on photo copies of English Dvar Malchus from BM, allegiance to Kesser wine and Shor HaBor meat and disrespect for the anti-meshichist shluchim who were mekareiv them. When they do manage to get out and about into the "real world" its to mingle with the local bums at YAM or to hear YYJ's eigene sichos in the new Chabad House that was once the Rebbe's shul.
If you say any different, you poshut don't know.
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I do not know Matisyahu, but I have written here in the past that he clearly lacks a "reka" in Judaism and its not because of his "Messianic" leanings, Any erliche Yid who has got the Messorah would not be singing in the places he does and still consider himself a charedi. THe Jewish Week reportys that there are 2 Orthodox men on Trump's TV show (is it You are Fired?) but they do not wear kippot and are not there to do kiruv work, rather to adavnce their careers etc.
Alas M. has been convinced that by going to the zehuma , he is involvd in kiruv and bringing the Messiah.
Another issue is who is the posek for Chabad, is there a posek and if a main line rav like David Cohen or Hillel david said it wasw rong would anyone in Lubavitch listen ?
The issue is Chatoim and not chotim, Matisyahu is patur as he still is a tinok shenishba...
I take issue with Montana's characterization of HH. What should "training" of bochurim entail? Aren't they there to learn? The RY and staff are all excellent role models and provide guidance to the bochurim. No one is forced to accept the party line. Everyone there grows at there own rate. All learning is done from seforim, and not english translations. This all provided me with a very positive experience as opposed to other Lubavitch BT institutions that hand the newcomers a black hat and jacket, and attempt intensive doctrinization.
Stam interesant, for those who have entertained the comparison before: You know what the difference between Shloimele a"h and Matisyahu yl"t? Shloimele was a deep chosid, klor in chasidus and nigleh, a learner and a thinker who got caught up in shmutz. Matisyahu is an am ha'aretz with a pediatric chinuch who is mlachtchila not even aware that he is in shmootz. Ironically, I think this is what sort of protects his Yiddishkeit, his own shallow awarness of its significance and obligations. Sort of like when a drunk driver hits another car... the other guy dies and the drunk driver often survives because he is all relaxed.
Tony Montana,
Not that I necessarily disagree with your assessment (I actually don't even care to form an opinion on this whole boring topic), but I want to say that one can't help but somehow feel soiled by reading your comments. They have an unmistakable feel of a pashkvil. Just wanted to express my ‘yuck’.
Yuck.
And the rest of this blog is just squeaky clean, right?
Tony Montana, my blog may be not clean in your eyes but it is never mean.
Tony, I don't know DY well enough to refute your opinion. I did farbreng with him once and if it's like you say, he pulled the wool over my eyes pretty well (besides that I have my own chitzoniyus to deal with and hope it leads to some pnimiyus. Berel, if you feel soiled vish zich un arum zich. Tony, where do you live?
Simon Jacobson taught me an important approach in life. Before criticizing see what is the alternative if there is an alternative. For example here why pile on the sweet Matis, there are plenty of alterative characters who are much worse. Compare Matis to Gene Simmons from KISS who is an ex yeshiva boy. Comparing Matis to Carlebach is idiotic.
When someone tells the ugly truth and then sighs, it's called honest. When someone tells the ugly truth but slips in a few jokes, it's called mean. Take out my glib comments and extract only the bare facts. You'll see that this is no pashkvil. I poshut feel bad for the guy and am hoping that maybe, just maybe, his fame will generate enough interest in the plight of hundreds (?) more BTs just like him who have gotten a shoddy chinuch.
Don't pile on BTs. Wisberg is a mislead BT himself. Pile on the leaders. Pile on your favorite mazkirim, vdal. Comparing Rav Yankev Goldberg to Avremel Lipsker is like comparing (fill in your own example). Let’s get real Goldberg is saint who is working with Hecht’s, need I say more? The crap in Morristown was on my watch and it was 15 years before 3 tamuz, let’s get real and put the blame where is belongs with the Adoneinu Moreinu v Rabeinu.
I find myself agreeing with Tony Montana here. His scenario smacks of a truth that is hard to admit for BT enthusiasts but impossible to ignore for realists.
Answer this please. Ignoring the general state of chaos in Chabad today. Is any BT today different from a BT 20 years ago. I don’t think so. The only differnce was 30 years ago, Block, Schwartzie, Hanokah, Wisberg, etc. And the difference was very simple, they were treated as equal Jews. And then on the watch of RAMASH the murderous discrimination set in. Let all responsible for that burn in eternal hell. Make a song of it...
This subject was thoroughly exasted on this blog and doesn't even qualify for a 'dead horse' designation. Just wanted to express my 'yawn'.
Yaaaaaawwwwwwwn...
exhausted
Talking about misnagdim on the other hand is the cutting edge excitement.
Tzemach, you're way out of line. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
You are grinding the wrong ax.
Tzfania, to say now that BTs chinich is lacking and use Matis as an example is stupid. This was going on for 25 years!!! To say that HH is worse than any other BT Lubavitch Yeshiva is also stupid.
Talking about misnagdim on the other hand is the cutting edge excitement.
I will settle for something that will bring at least a somewhat new perspective to a particular forum, it doesn't have to be 'cutting edge' in any absolute sense. My point was this: everything being said here today has already been said here many-many times, and then repeated again. That's what's yawn-inducing.
That might be true but it's not the point. The BT yeshivas have to continue to improve. Consider the alternative: assimalation purer than it is! The good news is that a large percentage of the second generation does very well - a similar phenominon as the children of immigrants. Think about it....
I take it all back. It all depends on your ‘business model’ (obviously, I am not using this term in any commercial sense). If the model is predicated on a bunch of interesting people that keep coming back, then repeating the same stuff might not be such a good idea. If, however the model is that of a ‘revolving door’, then the repetition approach will work just fine.
Berl, this is the first openly Lubavitcher that achieved this level of fame. We are talking about him and other tangential subjects. This is not a business, I have no subscription and people a free to go and come back.
Unbelievably, i find myself agreeing with Tzemach. If you have a problem with mishichitim, your problem is with the Rebbe. WE carry the torch. Apologetics and fancy pilpulim will get you nowhere when any simple person can understand from the Rebbe's sichos that he is declaring loud and clear that he is Moshiach, v'chulu. The Rebbe said it and I therefore believe it.
Don't put words in my mouth Pisher. I disagree 100% with your moronic jive.
The guy signed a record deal and wants to make money his fad will pass soon like all others.
Lets just get a fact check here, Eli Cohen was not ousted by merkos because he was never hired by merkos. He was the othodox rabbi at the bronfman center (multi denominational jewish student center)at NYU. They for whatever reason did not renew his contract and Korn who had already been in the village for 4 years working with baalei batim began officially working with students as part of the merkos campus program.
Secondly, last I checked (about 3 yrs ago) the so called chitzon was learning ete"r.
Tzemach is right. Dovid you are a disgrace to your Rebbe.
Traffic on this blog is through the roof today. All the Matisyahu searches. At this time there is a highest number of visitors at one time ever on this blog.
He's on the Yahoo! front page buzz log.
Yes I know, Yahoo links are coming in, hundreds of them.
"Anyways, since when do us frummer Yidden resort to statistics?" So true and reconfirmed at the back of every frummer shule every shabbos! Little surprise too that we ride the roller coaster from complacency to panic so often.
R.Eli Cohen was kicked out of the Brothmand Centre because they didn't want him there, he was an uncomfortable reminder of everything 'Jewish' that they didn't like - big beard, aukward, a little 'crazy' right-wing and stubon. It has nothing to do with Lubavitch etc... everyone knows R.Eli Cohen is a Meshichist but so is 'R'Korn (whatever he may say).
And I agree with Dovid about the buck stopping straight in the Rebbe's lap - both with regards to BT's and Moshiach.
i could not have said it any better. right on target.
nuts beyond! you guys just like to bash each other and put others down! now stop making fun of BTs!
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