mentalblog.com comments:
Tony, I am curious what is the alternative course you propose for the future of Lubavitch. How do you see things going forward? Can you name a person who in your opinion exemplifies a positive role model and also have a substantive message?
I can tell you that for Shluchim Jakey Yo! is G-d send. He does not speak in clichés, he is a thinking person and people sense that and react to it. He comes to Chabad house and the locals say WOW! I never heard him speak but I react to the reactions. Perhaps if I heard him I would feel differently.
Let me ask you a question. What the hell would expect in an educational systems that encourages bittul and discourages independent thinking, creativity, etc. He is a freak, a fluke, an odd genetic mutation. He was supposed to be a puppet just like the rest of Lubavitch, but nebech things went wrong.
TA- I'm sorry I don't understand are you pro him or con him? I'd say it's a gevaldigger Coup that he can get in and Darshan in his own way in a place that resistricts free thought, and creative expression. I for one say- here's to You Yossi Jacobson for being binadig- heivin dovor mitoch dovor
When I was in Crown Heights two months ago I was at Simons’ and Jakey Yo! walked in. He told me few interesting stories about my creator Chaim Grade that he heard from his father. He said he was going to do an interview with me Mozey Shabbos and then he chickened out.
The Yellow flag cockroaches become very confused when he talks. They cant understand why everyone becomes so quiet and attentive I think they would much rather clap and hop from one leg to the other bellowing the same tired mantra that’s coming out of my ears for the last 12 years. The song gives me a headache
Tony, I will not deny that Jakey speaks about sexuality and other previously forbidden topics, but can you describe WHY someone (not your hergesh) should find it wrong? Are these not important issues that desperately need attention and focus? Your dislike for Jakey seems to emanate from your own intolerance of these issues which he so boldly chooses to mention.
If you want to begin comparing different figures of deir hashvi'i to their predecessors in russia, then why don't you begin with the fact that almost half of the mashpi'im daven in under than 30 minutes? Wouldn't that be a bigger offense (In your eyes) than someone simply speaking about tabboo issues?
I think had he been in Ger then it would've been appropriate to speak about those subjects. In Lubavitch it never was, even for Bochurim with Mashpiim, unless the Bocher approached the mashpia.
T.M,
You have decided to attack a doctor for dealing with a sickness that he didn't create. Maybe you should complain about how things got so bad that people need to speak of issues that were once not addressed as such...but you, and the rest of the ostriches, would like to ignore problems until the patient is dead; I'd rather someone try to take them head on...
jaki is not the problem. that he will endeavor to enter the convaluted life of a bachur by describing in detail the most spoken about sin in tanya, heck- its the most spoken about aveiro period.
just because your bashfull and would rather beat around your bush and have no one mention it, that gives you no right to rant.
a dvar torah is exactly what 770 needs, that for 2 minutes out of every g-d forsaken week 770 is as it was.
"that Jakey speaks about sexuality and other previously forbidden topics..."
An interesting way of looking at the issue, if I ever saw one. The last time I checked, there was a distinctly Jewish discreetness about such issues; not for naught do the three traits said to be hard-wired in our nation include baishanim. Whereas I have heard and can relate to certain elements in Lubavitch philosophy and practice having changed since 1950, e.g. certain poilishe minhagim, emphasis on chitzoniyut/slogans/PR and similar themes, I have not heard of any mores regarding things traditionally defined as bein ish le'ishto becoming obsolete in the past while. Would you care to provide any references, preferably from the Rebbe's words/conduct, that would support the premise of such things having changed in the course of Dor HaShevii?
Or have we seen so much shmutz, plain old filth, from TV to signs on buses on Kingston Ave, to people themselves on Kingston, that we have simply become desensitized? And we noch imply that this was on the Rebbe's watch?!...
Unlike other religions, Judaism actively encourages "attention and focus" on the first commandment in the Bible. That doesn't mean it has to be done on the Bima in 770, nor does it mean that it has to be spoken about in that venue, certainly not in the manner that currently prevails. My distaste for T.M.'s opinions are none the less for my total revulsion at YJ's crassness. The more so for the fact that people actually buy this rubbish. Davening for 30 minutes is a comparable problem? How much more clueless are we going to get?
Clarification: I am NOT discussing Yossi Jacobson, nor expressing an opinion about him one way or the other. I am simply expressing my disgust with the level of conversation surrounding him and some of his words/doings.
I agree that sexual issues need to be dealt with unflinchingly. But this is not a chidush. The Mitteler Rebbe gave a tikun to a necrophiliac (see Reshimos), for crying out loud. What I am saying is that there is a sensitive way of confronting a problem that shows that it hurts to talk about it and then there is a cheap, crass, exploitative way of revelling in the shmutz in the name of honesty and convention-be-damned bravery. I see Jakey as the latter and find his unblushing forrays into lockerroom talk at the farbrengens to be just about as motivated by genuine concern for the emotional and psychological issues at hand as Jerry Springer or Geraldo Rivera are when exposing the plight of the teen nympho bisexual and her single mother. Indeed, if it were the issue itself with which Jakey was concerned, why the proster reid, the showmanship and the obsession?
Jakey is no doubt a genius and possesses a magnetic personality. But a mashpia? Is he the best we have today to be called an heir to Greinem and Shmuel Levitin or should he be called more like what he is: Phillip Roth with a beard?
Tony (are you indeed Aristol of Hashkafa fame?), the old maxim of קשוט עצמך תחילה would dictate that you speak in a way slightly more befitting a Jew and a Chasid, moreover the Tomim you appear to be. And please do not begin with the well-used "well I'm not the mashpia, he claims to be" defence. You can do better.
Tony, I will try to be serious, if for a brief moment. Please put the whole conversation in the context of the contemporary American frum milieu.
One example: a certain very respected & responsible Rov reportedly feels compelled to start his chassanim hadrocho shiurim with the following disclaimer: "You should know, that IT is not at all like you see IT in the movies - no one can last that long! They have to film many "takes" to make it appear so..."
Also, do you thing that Greinem's mushpoim had heard of the Russian cultural equivalents of a Jerry Springer or Geraldo Rivera? Deir deir vederishov.
"vedeirshov"
"for 2 minutes out of every g-d forsaken week 770 is as it was."
ali g-rubkeit | 03.09.06 - 9:59 pm | #
Okay then... If he's the only one who can speak to the generation, if he's the only one who can get it quiet in 770 for two minutes, if he's the only one who can understand the lost innocence of these complex times, then get up now, march down to his house and demand that he come to 770 and, with nigun, handkerchief and all, zog chasidus.
If you're intellectually honest, then there's not much of an in between. It's either that, or hang him from a ceiling fan by the piatehs.
You will have a new Rebbe vos shreibt af zich az er hot amol nisht geleigt kein tefillin l'haachis, who walks down the streets of CH in the summer with no hat and jacket. But, hey, who can understand these tzadikim? Their ways are strange.
I.M.G from Montreal, and the Rosh from L.A, have been openly discussing such topics, when Jakey as a bochur was busy experimenting the usage of Tefilin.
it's not new!!!!
Nathan, simply giving the same old excuses of "have simply become desensitized" and "eidelkeit" Don't you think that our generation has shifted, and so have the standards of life and ethics. If the Shulchan Aruch did not specifically prohibit something, then its status is varying, depending on the Rabbonim of the generation (This doesn't contradict to the vort of "Vos men meg darf men nisht" and the like). There are many things that would have been considered "Grub" in the times of the Rishonim and Achar)onim, that would be considered as proper etiquette in today's society. The reason for the change is unimportant (Although if you want, We can discuss this elsewhere) but we can agree that "What used to be" isn't today, hein l'maaliyuse v'hein l'griyuse.
Tony, is there a definition of "sensitive" or "sensitized" which can be applied throughout all the generations? clearly not! sensitivity is a relative psychological term, which is variant based on the psychological subject. Besides, let me ask you this: why is Sex less "sensitive" than speaking politics or blurting out meaningless cliches? Because these have snuk their way through the "Older Traditions" (This is called "Tzimtzum Haeiseies" in Chassidus, or just plain "Neigah")
There are many such things, which the Rebbe suddenly changed from tradition Mesorah, for instance, the concept of Shlichus - previously, (and still today) people would only want to live in a mokeim teire. There are many more example for this.
who walks down the streets of CH in the summer with no hat and jacket
oy vay! zolen mir nisht vissen
All of you defenders and chasidim of the Algemeiner admu"r shlit"a have argued valiantly for the case that Jakey's proster reid is all relative and is actually an indication that he is in-touch with the deir. But who will deign approach what is clearly written in the post, that Jakey uses this shprach in front of Lubavitcher veiber and r"l meidelech!
Just wondering, would 'catholic' (note the small 'c') be the best translation of the word 'algemeiner', hmmm...? I think so...
who walks down the streets of CH in the summer with no hat and jacket
oy vay! zolen mir nisht vissen
Radomsker | 03.09.06 - 11:11 pm | #
He is a mashpia in TT. If it is of no regard that he chooses to walk down Kingston with no hat and jacket, then do the right and honest thing and suspend it at once from the yeshiva rules!
Perhaps the same "educational system that encourages bittul and discourages independent thinking, creativity, etc." Also does unintentionally and by default allow for an impression of credibility and substance to sentiments expressed by TM and similar folks, which would otherwise be written off as the frustrations of jealous, lazy and unmotivated individuals, who delude themselves into thinkig that their analysis is a vital contribution to the understanding of chasidic life.
i have heard him he tries to hard to sound sophisticated. he would fail any speech class. For lubavitchers who cant speak english he is a poet. but lets face this guy is in it for the cash. he is not looking to create anything remotely spiritual. do u know how much he charges to speak at a Chabad House I question his knowledge of nigleh. He is riding the cotails of his brother who exploited the Rebbe sichos for profit and personal gain.
"Jakey uses this shprach in front of Lubavitcher veiber and r"l meidelech"
What the "sheil tachtis"' is the difference between a man and woman on this topic? (Aderabbah, this is the only thing which shows the common bond between vechulu)
"Jakey uses this shprach in front of Lubavitcher veiber and r"l meidelech"
What the "sheil tachtis"' is the difference between a man and woman on this topic? (Aderabbah, this is the only thing which shows the common bond between vechulu)"
Perhaps this should be corrected to "B"H Meidelech"
Radomsker and Howie, you are scoundrels.
Tony, don't you turn all girly-shy on us! You were dishing the tzeioh out on a shiur! Un mit a mol iz er gevoren a gantze tzidkonis!
To the "Ma'yan Hamitgaber" of small minded self righteousness: Thank you.
Again, I said clearly when I first introduced the topic: Jakey is not the problem. The problem is that Lubavitch today is filled with well-meaning but misguided souls who don't see a problem with a yungerman discussing sex with teenaged Lubavitcher girls. How long can you rationalize away this gefeirliche chalishus by saying, "It's a sick world out there. We're exposed to it. We gotta bring out the heavy guns." Tut altz vos er vilt!
Jakey riding Simon's coattails? I think not.
סימון וואלט זיך געוואונטשען אזא שפראך ווי יוסי
This is outrageous!! I am very close with Jakey for years now, and every one of your accusations is false! Don't forget. tofasto miruba lo tofasta! Now that you're so extreme, it's migaleh on your milder posts. Jakey is a yiras shomayim, and an erlicher yid. Shame on you!
Yes, you're right. It is outrageous. Thank G-d somebody woke up.
Tony, are you geographicly close to Zalman?
Tony, you premise is off. Have you not noticed that Lubavitch today is not a homogeneous community in any sense? There are ‘Lubavtcher girls’ in front of whom such a discussion would indeed be inappropriate. And then there are ‘Lubavitcher girls’ for whom such a discussion would be the least of their problem and may even be of help. Same with bachurim. If a mashpiah spoke to my teen-age sons the way you claim YYJ speaks to his charges, I would want to pinch his lights out. But in ULY? Maybe not such a bad idea? And so on...
HT, don't waste time on alan kesler - he sounds like a painful moron. And he will not be able to read that foreign language you write in.
Berl, how do you manage in today’s Lubavitch, to keep your sons separate from the others? Or doesn’t it bother you?
Come on Boruch! There is no 'separate' anything. What I am saying here is not exactly 'cutting edge'! There is a huge range of parallel sub-groups among Lubavitchers of all ages and they don't even cross paths all that much. This is news to you?
The reisha is not the seifa is. They don't cross paths? My impression is they do, and that was my question, how to stop them crossing paths.
To my mind, the chareidi (for want of a better word) families in Chabad are the most marginalized.
They do not cross paths in a 'communal' sense. They are not 'pals' and by a certain age they tend to end up in separate mesivteis etc. I do not know what you mean by "chareidi" nor do I know that I would qualify as one in your eyes, so I can't speak to this issue.
Anyone who would want to "pinch the lights out" of a "mashpia" that spoke to his kids like that can't be all that bad ;)
BTW - it's 1 AM. Have any of Jakey's heiser chasidim gone down to his house to shlep him to 770 for the haktora yet? It's put up or shut up. Either that, or have any of the Jakey supporters brought their daughters/sisters/mothers over to Jakey's for a kallah class?
"Humor is how deep pain expresses itself once one has come to the realization that the bastards don't give a damn."
--Jacky Pomerance
Wow!
Berl actually agrees that certain segments of Chabad are.....maybe,maybe Modern Orthodox at best.
I guess it was a slip of the pen
Not that M:
Even the most halachically lax Lubavitcher has more yiras shomayim than you by mere dint of the residue of a residue of chasidus that has seeped in to their consciousness. I hope that slack-jawed, hairy Gruziner, YYJ finds you wandering the streets of Flatbush and punks you out.
Lest I appear like R' Ariel Suck-a-lot-ski, I include this url for your edification so you can understand what it means to get punked out (whether in yeshiva or in prison):
http://www.spr.org/en/
stephendon...01_lecture.html
Man! It is late and I am after my first bottle. I will have to try to post more coherently in the morn. For now, say goo' night to the bad guy!
Oh Berel, Do me a favor and stop being a pathetic judgmental crown heights farmer. Based on your last post it’s quite apparent that you have no idea what you are talking about, by making some ridiculous blanket statement about ULY. I was there for three years and it was the best three years of my life its an excellent yeshiva with regular lubavitcher bochrim just as Detroit Morristown L.A O.T v’chulu. So why don’t you just head back to your farm and continue tending to your cattle.
As for Tony Montana I feel wrong refuting you because I really enjoy your writing. But for the three years spent in ULY I tried to spend every moment I could with Rabbi Y.Y.J and not once in those years did he so much as utter any of the above mentioned dung that you so eloquently spewed. He deals with each and every bochur "l'fum shiur dileh" and has been an excellent guide and role model for every one that’s ever walked through the doorposts of that establishment.
And might I add on a more personal note he was the best thing that ever happened to me his willingness and openness channeled through his sociability cannot be undone by any other mashpiim the “system” has to offer you can discuss anything with him and feel comfortable doing so his assistance has guided me in only the best of ways especially in this post gimmel tamuz world (forgive my cliché).
Mind you this all aside from his brilliant chassidus shiur that he gave which just so happens to be were usually based on shiurim given by Reb Yoel and if you have beef with Reb Yoel (which just based on assumption you do) your just stam a waste of time bitter lubavitcher who didn’t get enough kiruv from the rebbe or the rebbe’s organizations.
Ch"v! I have no beef with Reb Yoel. He NEVER talked about spunking off into a towel! And, bocherleh, I don't know where you were but Jakey's ubiquitous masturbation talk is a dovor hayeduah. So if you never heard it, lucky you!
What is ULY? In general could you please use les abbreviations so others can follow the blog. This is not an inside ping pong. Tony Montana still did not answer to one of my original questions (see above).
One cannot help but wonder whether Tony's fixation on the particular instances of YYJ's alleged inapproppriate talk, and his eloquent description of the vulgarities, (in the original post and in subsequent comments), do not belie his own "cheap, crass, exploitative way of revelling in the shmutz in the name of honesty and convention-be-damned bravery"
Oifmerkzamer, exactly my thoughts. Hey Tony, are you gay?
well i am not sure about jackie o and his yiras shomayim he is from the "new" generation i am from the older one
all i know is simon was always known as the "koifer" etc. i dont want to elaborate. but maybe it runs in the family geans (jeans)
but what is the big deal of jackie saying his own toiras in 770. the hailiker head shliach vchulu rabbi sholom boruch cunin says his own chssidus maybe we should make him the new rebbe. but i guess maybe since he doesnt wave the yellow flag then what he does doesnt get Criticized but hey
i guess it depends on which side of the fence you are on. looking out at the other side "die aigener shmekt nisht"
zalman deh shikker,
Normally I would not respond this type of a comment, but I have to correct your misrepresentation of my words. What I said about ULY (United Lubavitcher Yeshiva - specifically Cheivevei Teiroh) was not at all meant to disparage that institution. They reportedly do a great job and they do care about the bachurim. But it’s also true that they do cater MOSTLY to a certain kind of a bachur. In their mesivta for example, they have two completely separate tracks – one for serious bachurim, one for the other kind. I do not know that much about their zal program (and I do not doubt that for various reasons some serious bachurim do somehow end up there), however, no parent I ever spoke to would even consider that place for their son unless other places were for some reason not an option. That does not make ULY bad, however. There are other excellent places that fit the same category. Rabbi Shtern runs a truly great program Upstate NY, and it, too, is geared to a specific contingent. I think it is great that these options are available. And all I said was that MAYBE in front of some of ULY bachurim discussions of a certain kind are not such a bad idea*. I am truly sorry your attendance at ULY gave you such an inferiority complex. I feel your pain.
* BTW, you are correct to point out that we should not assume that Tony’s description of the specific discussions by YYJ is necessarily true.
Oifmerkzamer, you are great!
חברה איר זיינט אלע געוואלדיג געשמאק צו ליינען, מען האט אייך אלע דערמאנט אין דעם יידישן וויקיפעדיע
אלס הויפט טעמע פארן טאג.
טאני מענטאנע איך האלט אז דו דארפטס מאכן א לייוו דעבאטע מיט יאסי זשעקאבסאן אליינס, איך וואלט געצאלט הונדערט דאלער מיטצוהאלטן אזא פייט.
חברה כאפט א בליק
yi.wikipedia.org
Yes, it is quite clear that tony is gay. Not only is he going too far in a description, but it aint even a description -- it's a fantasy! Jakey is a chassidisher yid!
it is also clear that you are a Pisher.
Berl, enough with your chassidic cleansing idea, Shtern's Yeshiva is catered to a certain kind of bochur, not necessarily the "free thinking" one, but the one who is having trouble in yiddishkeit. ULY on the other hand, is not catered to any crowd, the Yeshiva is a regular Yeshiva and the teachers don't consider it a rehab program (as opposed to shtern's, buffalo, bucharim etc.)
Berl, you are probably a bitter Oholei Teirenik who has a blood hate for ULY.
Berl is right that CH (Lubavitch) has all kind's of Bochurim today, and they all need different type's of hashpoah and Hadrocha, But you cant have the same person catering to both crowds. You cant teach in YAM for one hour and in OT the next. You cant teach Chasidus in Heichal menachem one day and then go to a new age kabalah retreat the next day.
Jakey is very smart and talented and can most probably succeed at any of these jobs but he has to choose one. Either Manis or Yoel but not both.
Simon thinks he is Yoel, so that job might be already taken.
Initially, when Yossi was taken to give shiurim at Heichal Menachem, it was their hope that he would be an updated version of R' Yoel.
With time, YYJ went the more Manes approach (and I suspect that the parnossa is surely better), which is a big reason why he hasn't given shiurim in HM in years. Unfortunately, HM has a hard time finding individuals who can communicate with the locals, and they had high hopes for Yossi in this capacity. Simon was never, and never could be, considered for that role - it looks like R' Yoel is still pretty unique.
"... a blood hate for ULY."
Pray tell me where did I communicate any "hate" ch'v at all for ULY? I sure do not feel any. And I did not say it was a rehab like Rabbi Stern't place (what an ugly description) – I said that ULY catered to a specific crowd, and it sure does.
At the end of the day, none of this crap matters anyway. The only thing that matters is what these kids are going to be like when they grow up. I venture to say that Rabbi Stern will produce many fine chassidishe yungeleit wos velen hoben a geshmak in lerent eich. Same for ULY.
My whole point was that different bachurim need a different approaches, MORON!
Since Tony has been outed there is not a word from him
You still seem to believe that putting a chassidishe farfrumte bochur, together with a chilled guy in the same building is a recipe for disaster?
Since people started throwing around schoolyard insults at me, I thought better of my involvement on this blog. I am here to entertain. I do not lie in my posts, but I definitely do put on a character. If people are so into the character that they start to get mad at me, I gotta take a step back. In theory, I really wouldn't mind being the Andy Kaufman of this blog. I just have this darn conscience that makes me feel bad when people get all embroiled into something that I am essentially doing just to blow off steam and have a good time.
"have you good time"? you are a vile prick. get lost.
Radomsker,
It is a father's responsibility to ensure his kids get a proper education. You want to run a Yeshiva that conducts social experiments? By all means! Not with my kids though. The disparity between the various types of kids in Lubavitch today is too great, the dangers too severe to have them all in the same misgeres. I would go further: the earlier the kids would be placed in environments/schools/classes that were appropriate to their needs & abilities, the better it would be for all. As it stands today, the separation starts mostly at the mesivta level. Not soon enough.
I will go even further: if class-placement, starting from elementary school, were done according to academic abilities, the frie-out rate would decrease dramatically. How do you think it feels for a kid to go to school every day and not be able to follow what goes on in class? How do you think it feels for a kid to go to school every day and be bored out of his mind? In short, honesty and realism would benefit all kids. But our culture today is based on some dumb communistic notion az ale zainen glaich and the parents worry only about “how it looks” for their kid to be in “a weaker class”. Until the whole damn lie they built for themselves explodes in their faces. And then it’s always “vi is dos geshen?”
Radomsker, Ale yidden zainen tayer ober zei zainen nit ale glaich.
NOTE: My last comment extolling the virtues of segregation does not at all negate my earlier rant on this very blog about BT education (that capable grown-up BTs should be educated together with the young frum kids). It is not the background that should be keiveyah but academic ability, attitude to learning and chassidishkeit.
HA! I was just going to ask you about that...
Care to clarify the reasoning behind the difference, and why the BT scenario is better suited for integration?
it is a post now, please follow the thread there.
Let me rephrase my question:
Realistically not every BT will work out, nor does an BT have a hergesh chassidi. Are there really no worries?
Also, evaluating each kid, and each BT's chassidshkeit is a very tricky thing to do. How you suppose it world work successfully, with minimal fallout?
(TA: My question pertains to the seifa, which is not in the new thread)
i don't get this unabashed crusade, your all foolhardy if you think that expactations of mashpiim and there inherent styles are the same.
if reb nissin lived today you'd mock him with the same distaste, "the man isn't living in the 21 century" would be your line of dicredit.
jews are bashfull but "loi habaishon loimeid" what's out in the open is out in the open. roll back your own clock just don't take us all with you.
At the very least he is original and trying to force Lubavitch to interface with the reality of the 21st century.
Old slogans and power trips do not work any more.
LETS GET REAL! this guy is the hassidic BILL CLINTON! he make his money by entertaining crowds. he is not interfacing with anything. if anyone wants a role model of what a chossid should be look at Rabbi Menachem Zev Greenglas shlita. there is no one in CHABAD that comes even close to him today.
B"H
Simply because a mashpia is also a great public speaker who can "entertain crowds" doesn't mean he is a chitzon.
I know Yossi Jacobson since 5753 when he was learning in Beis Midrash in Lubavitch Yeshiva in Boston and I was in day school there.
I met him many times since in Boston and NY.
He is a unique individual who has great understanding of Chassidus and human nature, is able to relate to all kinds of people, to present Torah and Chassidus on their level and to inspire them.
I often seems people who choose to spend their time trying to put down someone like Yossi for real or imagined "sins" would achieve much more good by learning from him .
And if your intentions are truly positive why not call him and ask him does he do certain things that seem wrong to you what's the hetter and what is the toeles from doing this in light of your concerns and presume that he knows what he is doing and has good intentions unless you know otherwise.
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